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A Hamas Divided

By on 11.19.12 @ 6:10AM

Analyzing the Israel-Gaza conflict.

Whenever the Israel-Palestine conflict is in the news, too much ink is wasted over moralizing rather than analyzing. Instead of trying to explain what is going on, provide proper context, and predict reasonably what might follow, commentators bicker over who has the moral high ground.

These endless polemics do nothing to help.

A proper analysis should begin by noting that since the start of this year, there has been a significant increase in rocket attacks on southern Israel from Gaza.

Operation Cast Lead, Israel’s attack on Gaza militants during the winter of 2008-2009, proved to be damaging for Israel’s image abroad. There was substantial loss of Palestinian civilian life and the initial Goldstone report accused Israel of deliberately targeting civilians. But the military operation achieved its goal of at least substantially reducing rocket attacks from Gaza.

Not only did Hamas refrain from carrying out such attacks, but the ruling group in Gaza also kept in check more hard-line groups like Islamic Jihad.

The key to understanding the increase in rocket attacks this year is the internal rivalry within Hamas. As Hussein Ibish points out, a distinction ought to be made between the domestic leadership of Hamas in Gaza and the officials in exile (what Ibish terms the “Politburo”) who are responsible for Hamas’ relations with foreign governments.

The problem for the Politburo is the fallout from Syria and (to a lesser extent) Iran, such that Khaled Meshaal — the official leader of Hamas — has had to relocate from Syria to Qatar.

In turn, it should be noted — as I did in an article last year entitled “Sunni Realignments“— that both Turkey and Qatar have been cementing ties with the domestic leadership in Gaza. This trend has become all the more apparent this year.

For example, just last month Qatar promised some $400 million to aid reconstruction efforts in Gaza and the emir paid a visit to the territory itself. Turkish premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan met with the prime minister of Hamas — Ismail Haniyeh, who is based in Gaza — at the start of this year, with proposals to provide unspecified aid for humanitarian projects in Gaza.

As Ibish notes, compounding this shift in alliances and internal rivalry in Hamas was Meshaal’s announcement in September that he would step down as Hamas leader. This means that the contest for the leadership is between Haniyeh in Gaza, and the second most senior official in exile, Musa Abu Marzook in Cairo.

The loss of much of the Politburo’s ties with traditional “resistance bloc” allies Syria and Iran, and the support pledged for the Gaza leadership by Turkey and Qatar, mean that it is in the faction’s interest to assert itself as the true face of resistance against Israel.

By recommencing its own rocket attacks and being much more lenient with the hard-line groups in Gaza, the domestic leadership has the chance to take power decisively away from the officials-in-exile, especially regarding relations with foreign governments.

A further incentive to assert an image of active hostility lies in the fact that Palestinian Authority (PA) in the West Bank has been losing its credibility. This year, Arab donors have not followed up with aid pledges, and as a result the PA is struggling to pay public employee salaries.

Perhaps the biggest credibility boost for Hamas (as opposed to the PA) in adopting a stance of renewed active resistance is the PA’s security forces close work with the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) to prevent militant attacks emanating from the West Bank. This, of course, is the very same IDF that has now caused Palestinian civilian casualties in Gaza with its bombing campaign against Hamas targets.

The Israeli response to the escalation of rocket launches isn’t a sign of opportunistic electioneering by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. It simply reflects a desire for Israel to reassert a deterrence policy toward Gaza, amid complaints for months that not enough was being done to deal with the attacks.

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About the Author

Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi is a Shillman-Ginsburg Fellow at the Middle East Forum, and a student at Brasenose College, Oxford University. His website is http://www.aymennjawad.org.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (84) |

John786| 11.19.12 @ 6:33AM

Once again me Javad has decided to concentrate on tittle tattle while ignoring - the elephants- i.e. the substance of the issue: the brutal occupation of the Palestinian people by fanatical secular & religious ( mostly Christian) zionists. Israel attempts to wipe out Islamic & Palestinian heritage, in the heart of the ME, over the last 50+ years, have not worked. Israel will mis-step: Agression at some point can missfire. The Roman empire learnt, and todays neoconservatives are learning that raw power has unintended consequences. I would urge Israeli civil society to increase efforts towards peace: 67 borders and all that. The last hurrahs for Zionism are being sounded. It really is 67 or bust. My prayers are with the people of Gaza and all the Palestinians.

spike59| 11.19.12 @ 6:40AM

thank you for your rant, Mr. Abbas...now on to the serious business of turning Hamas into a sad footnote in history, and its leaders into organic fertilizer

Jack in Wi| 11.19.12 @ 8:04AM

The whole world outside the Zionist controlled countries like the USA, Canada, and England stands with the Palistinian freedom fighters. One of your great victories in the last couple of days was the extermination of a family of 12. Well pictures of that have gone over the whole world especailly to one and a half billion Muslims. Of course Obama goes along with his Zionist handlers and reads staements that are nothing but AIPAC propaganda. Nutayahoo belongs before a war crime tribunal not running a so called country. The Israeli's treat the non Arab majority under their control like Hitler treated you until 1938. We all know what happened then. This is headed in the same direction. Israel could of had peace for decades if it would treat it's neighbors like human beings. It still can if sane Jews take over the place. Otherwise it will continue to be a worldwide pariah rightfully hated for it racism and crimes.

C. Vernon Crisler | 11.19.12 @ 10:07AM

Zionist controlled countries like the USA....

Jack, this is classic anti-semitism, maybe even Nazism. Civilians will be killed as long as terrorists hide like cowards among them. I notice that you never require Palestinians to treat Israelis like human beings. Why is that?

Jack in Wi| 11.19.12 @ 10:54AM

The terrorists are the Israeli's who use terror all the time for group punishment, a serious war crime and just plain murder, theft, and torture. As to who controls the USA. There is no debate in Congress while we flush many hundreds of billions of dollars down the Zionist toilet. As Pat Buchanan said over 20 years ago. " Congress is Israeli occupied territory. " The Presidents after 2000 have been total stooges of Israel. They also control almost all the mainstream media. There is nothing anti-semitic about the truth and I wrote the truth. Vern: I said before you should read some other sources who give a far different picture. Most of the world knows what the Israeli's are doing and does not like it.

C. Vernon Crisler | 11.19.12 @ 11:08AM

Jack, your mindless, unreasoning hatred of Israelis is precisely what the Jews are facing each day.

irish19| 11.19.12 @ 11:35AM

Your anti-Semitic bile and lies would make Julius Streicher blush.
You wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on the a$$.

irish19| 11.19.12 @ 11:38AM

And BTW, you just proved Vernon's point for him.

Jack in Wi| 11.19.12 @ 3:53PM

Again nothing but the truth. The last resort of you scoundrels is yelling anti-semitic. Go sraight to hell. I will keep telling the truth to you bunch of liars and traitors. Go back to Israel and stay there. America first.

Alan| 11.20.12 @ 7:31AM

The truth right from the facts provided by Jewwatch and Stormfront. Sure asshole we'll go "sraight" to hell as soon as you graduate 3rd grade and learn how to spell.

pogybait| 11.19.12 @ 10:57AM

No need to feel threatened in your NPR cocoon Jack. I'm sure that by this evening, that you and all of your friends will be basking in the soft-focus amber glow of your own rarefied goodness hoping that Nutayahoo will come before a war crimes tribunal. Just remember that under Sharia Law one can only be forgiven one time, once they've been decapitated, stoned, disemboweled and then trampled to death by a herd of unwashed goats.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 11:42AM

So now the US, Canada and England are "Zionist controlled countries"! The mask of Jack's claim that he only opposes the Israeli leadership and is not an old-fashioned antisemite is torn off for all to see (not that I or any thinking person had a doubt about it). You're worthless Nazi scum, Jack.

Jack in Wi| 11.19.12 @ 7:19PM

I have just watched a video of a former Israeli soldier who exposes the crimes of the occupation. He belongs to a group of former Israeli soldiers who have served in the Israeli occupation forces. The group is called Breaking the Silence. {Breaking the silence.org. } They expose and record the many crimes and humiliations of the occupation. There are many other decent Israeli's who are coming to their senses. Sadly many of them are so fed up that that they are leaving Israel. Thus the loonies get stronger, as they lead the world over a cliff.

chuck| 11.19.12 @ 7:28AM

Is that you, Jack?

" It really is 67 or bust."

"It is Ron Paul or bust."

The similarities are striking. Me thinks John is Jackass in Wi.

TLP| 11.19.12 @ 8:41AM

"Since the beginning of the year, there has been a steady increase of rocket Attacks on Israel."

And, there ya have it.

I can almost understand Rocket #1. But - Rocket #2? And then #3? And #4? All the way up to #500?

Really?

I'm sorry, but any Government who STANDS BY and DOES NOTHING while the guy next door Rains Rockets down on its People, ain't really worth a Sh*t, is it?

This should have been Resolved, before Rocket #2 ever got the chance to be fired from that Children's Hospital in Gaza.

I have tried to tell these people the way to go. The Chicago Way. They bring a Knife? You bring a Gun? They put one of yours in the Hospital? You put one of theirs IN THE MORGUE. That's the Chicago Way. (Sean Connery / The Untouchables)

I've said to them: for every 1 Rocket they send at you? You must return it with 10 of your own. If they send 10. You must send 100 back.

Enough of these Air Strikes.

Doesn't anybody have any GODDAMN ARTILLERY, ANYMORE?!

We have a saying in American Sports: You wanna put your Opponent down, and keep him down. You get him on the ground, and you STEP ON HIS NECK.

You never wanna let him "Hang Around".

These Animals should have been PUT DOWN a long time ago.

God knows, they've Earned it.

TLP| 11.19.12 @ 8:43AM

Speaking of Traitors.

loulou| 11.19.12 @ 11:04AM

The only difference between Jacksh*t in WI and John786 is that John ADMITS to being a Muslim.

John786| 11.19.12 @ 3:27PM

Admits to being a Muslim. I don't have to admit- I just am a Muslim. I'm very happy. Thank You.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 4:24PM

Jack isn't a Muslim. He's an old-fashioned Fayther Coughlin Catholic antisemite.

Alan Brooks | 11.19.12 @ 4:36PM

"Jack isn't a Muslim. He's an old-fashioned Fayther Coughlin Catholic antisemite."

Oh, so neo-Confederates can defend the Confederacy and have statues of Daddy Robert, but Jack isn't supposed to say what he thinks about Israel?
Pat Buchanan is considered a true patriot, but Jack is merely a Web punching bag for you??

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 7:15PM

I didn't say he couldn't say whatever he wanted to about Israel. I just said he's an antisemite, which he plainly is and has repeatedly demonstrated by his comments.

Jack in Wi| 11.19.12 @ 7:53AM

This is nothing but Nutayahoo's electionering. It has been long in the works. Read the Israeli press. He murders people every election as do any other Israeli leaders who have a chance to do it. It satisfys the bloodlust of extremists in Israel who want to expell or murder all the non Jews in Israel Palistine. This whole thing started when the Israeli's went in and murdered a 13 year old boy playing soccer. This brought on renewed rocket attacks from Palistinian freedom fighters. Then they went in and killed Jabarey who was working on an armistice offer with Israeli peace activists and the Egyptain government. Nutayahoo could not have that in an election year. Of course the usual casualty ratio is about 100 Palistians killed to every Israeli. The vast majority of the thousands killed and wounded is old people, children, and women. When the Jews rebelled in Warsaw ghetto, they were considered hero's. When the Hungarians rebelled in 1956 the world was with the them. The people of Tibet, Poland, and Chekoslovakia all resisted tyrany. The freedom fighters in Gaza are resisting a tyranical and racist regime who keeps almost 2 million people in a concentration camp where they are packed in like sardines. The people of whole world outside the Zionist controlled countries like the USA and Britian stand for freedom and equal treatment for Palistine. Have you people no shame?

pogybait| 11.19.12 @ 11:09AM

Absolutely Jack and most of these Muslims leaders are deeply sensitive people and their feelings are easily hurt, but Islamist leaders across the world took to the airwaves and beseeched their followers to refrain from acts of violence just as they have done before and instead walk the path of peace, once an appropriate amount of churches and synagogues have been burned and enough people are brutally gunned down. You'll see, Muslims and infidels can co-exist in peace and harmony....and it won't have to include anywhere near the amount of groveling Muslims have grown to expect from open minded progressives like us!

Ryan| 11.19.12 @ 9:09AM

Tell Hamas to cease random firing into civilian areas, to cease military emplacements in civilian areas, and to cease violence as policy.

Then maybe we'll be more understanding.

Yeah, the Israelis aren't angels here, but Hamas has so far been the true villains.

irish19| 11.19.12 @ 11:40AM

And that is the bottom line right there.

Al Adab| 11.19.12 @ 10:47AM

Sad to see them making war in Muharram is it not?

Alan Brooks | 11.19.12 @ 4:31PM

So Jack is wrong to dislike Israel, but you can think of the Mideast as merely a region to obtain petroleum from?
You gyuys couldn't care less about the residents of the Mideast-- and they know it, they are not 'tards; they know you don't give a damn about them so they pay you back in your own coin.

nathan| 11.19.12 @ 8:10AM

You have to wonder what would have happened all those years ago if Israel had not formally recognized Hamas and given them finacial assistance early on. (Yes they did look it up folks.) This was when Hamas was up and coming.

Now, you ask, in light of what later happened, why on earth would the "brilliant" Israelis be so incredibly stupid? At the time they thought that Hamas would be a religious counter to the secular PLO. So they formally recognized them and gave them money.

We see how that worked out. Reap what you sow. We have no idea if they learned anything from this.

One thing positively. Attacks that kill civilians, especially kids, don't work. Justify it all you want, talk about the high ranking bad guys you end up killing, trust me no one cares. You can't do this today. The WWII paradigm is over. Whereas before 100,000 dead in a raid didn't matter much, today blow up a house with 5 dead kids, and people all over the world will light you up. We have to deal with the new reality folks.

C'mon Man!| 11.19.12 @ 12:04PM

I have to disagree, these jerkweeds hide among civilians, does that mean the Israelis can't defend themselves from these cowards? If the "civilians" don't kick them out, then they bring their own judgment on themsleves. Israel has a right to defend itself from attacks from foreign entities, regardless of the circumstances. Sorry, I will never believe the palestinians, or any arabs, are peaceful. Theyhave shown themselves to love violence, so why not give it to them?

nathan| 11.19.12 @ 2:11PM

I'm sorry all 3/400 million whatever the number, they ALL love violence? Some five year old kid, he loves it too? NO. Every survery done shows you're wrong that the vast majority just want to be left alone and don't support this. You can't legitimately judge an entire race/group based on the actions of a small minority. Were all southerners racist murders based on the actions of the night riders in the early 1900's? Were all troops in Vietnam civilian killers based on what happened at Mai Lai? (Or the ghastly Phoenix program for that matter.) Is it legitimate to look at the behavior of Calley and his men and then say, all the troops were like that? No. But that's exactly what you're doing here.

Let me see you are expecting in many instances unarmed civilians to go up against armed to the teeth bad guys and "kick them out" and if they don't well according to you their failure to commit what is basically suicide here constitutes a capital offense? Really?

No, you can't justify killing unarmed civilians this way. And what we know is it makes the situation worse. You make enemies you don't need to make. All the evidence shows the cost benefits don't work here.

TLP| 11.19.12 @ 3:25PM

Isn't that exactly what the Palestinians are trying to do with their Shelling of Civilian Targets?

I say: KILL'EM ALL, and let their Pagan Moon God of Death, sort it out.

NOBODY will miss them.

Kinda like you, nathan.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 4:29PM

nathan,

You assume that these people think as we do. They do not. Their morality is based on honor, not truth. Find me a mother who is proud of her children dying for jihad over here. Find a girl who wished to blow up the hospital and doctors who saved her life.

You take refuge in numbers, saying they can't all be that way. What if I say they are? Can you tell me I am wrong. The second charge is to say we made them that way. Horse-malarky. I was in a taxi in Amman, Jordan the day of their hundred year flood (80' - 81', I can't remember). The Palestinian cab driver was a refugee in Jordan. He hated them for being appeasers to America. He said that the way to tell a Palestinian from a Jordanian was to talk to them. If they were stupid they were Jordanian. It's an anecdote, but in the eighteen months I lived in the Middle East, I collected hundreds.

No one is targeting unarmed civilians, they are targeting military installations which just so happen to be under soccer fields, next to schools, in hospitals - which just so happens to violate the Geneva accords, but let's not get too picky about the rules of war, shall we.

I think you are right on the cost-benefit question. Less people will die over time if more die today.

Von Mises Jr| 11.19.12 @ 8:23AM

It is quite simple. Americans re-elected Obama or he successfully stole the election and it was a green light to Hamas to attack Israel.
The Obama regime did nothing to stop or retaliate for Benghazi but instead groveled and apologized. Iran buzzed our Drone and we were not told until a week later after the election. Why would the Islamist not attack Israel?
And if and when they attack America, will Obama apologize again?

But people get the government they deserve.
Here in NYC/NJ, three weeks after Sandy we still have people without shelter or electricity. They voted about 70% for Obama and big government. They thought that they were going to get free stuff. Instead they are being ignored. I wish to help. Let me suggest they keep dialing 1-800-GOV-HELP.

TLP| 11.19.12 @ 8:45AM

Hmmmmmmmmm.

President Green Light.

Why does that sound so Familiar?

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 11:45AM

You're an idiot, Von Mises. Hamas has been lobbing rockets at Israel for the past several months, long before the election was decided.
I'm glad to see the President strongly defend Israel's right to protect itself by laying waste to the terrorists in Gaza.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 2:21PM

RCV,

We all know that Hamas has been lobbing rockets for years with greater or less frequency. Please note that even your vaunted Obama is quoted as saying an "ever escalating" number of rocket attacks precipitated the current state of affairs. Of course Obama gave lip service to Israel's self-defence followed by another of his famous "however" warnings against "ramping up" actions against Gaza. Hardly a strong defence of Israel followed by a specific statement against, as you say, "laying waste to the terrorists."

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 3:04PM

That was no "lip service". The President's unequivocal endorsement of Israel's right to self-defense against Hamas's missles has been the reason Israel has been able to move without international pressure. The President's hopes about the conflict not escalating are what any president would and has said. Why you guys insist on trying to drive a wedge between the US and Israel always perplexes me.

TLP| 11.19.12 @ 3:28PM

He will never do more than give Lip Service.

Ever!

He's the Bullshitter in Chief.

He will do even Less for Israel, than he did for OUR OWN PEOPLE in Beghazi.

And then he'll Lie about it.

Cause that's what he is.

A Fckng Liar.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 3:50PM

RCV,

I do not wish to drive ANY wedge between the U.S. and Israel. They are our only ally in the Middle East (certainly since the recents shifts in Turkey and Egypt), and a steadfast friend of the U.S.

My concern is that the U.S. has made this region more dangerous through its vacillations. Our difference in opinion is what you call a strong defence by the President and what I call a strong defence by the President. He is waffling and will get a war out of it. The very war that you and I agree is all but inevitable.

C'mon Man!| 11.19.12 @ 12:05PM

They can call on their Obama phones! Hard to watch that gov't big screen with no power...

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 2:20PM

I just love the hypocrisy of the Right. Von Mises is complaining that the government hasn't restored electricity or provided housing to people impacted by the hurricane. In the first place, electricity is provided by private utility companies (who, in fairness, have had to remove more than 45,000 downed trees in NJ alone to get to the transmission wires and towers). What's the problem, Von Mises? Government not doing enough to your liking? The irony is that it's the people of the most Republican borough in NYC -- Staten Island -- complaining that the government isn't giving them enough.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 2:31PM

RCV,

I did not read Von Mises Jr.'s post as a call for government to aid these people. I read it as a criticism of those who expect government to aid them. And an observation of the innate limitation of bureaucracy in times of emergency. Observe Home Depot's and Wal-Mart's pre-storm logistical planning and compare that to government bureaucrats.

When Gustav hammered Louisiana, I was in Louisiana with my chain saw helping my parents clear six feet of debris from around their house. When Ike hit three weeks later (followed by a flood the very next day), we in Houston cleared our streets with our chain saws and waited a couple of weeks for electricity to be restored. Did you see the "Sandy" like reporting? No! That only occurs with a Katrina-type event where the "takers" are screaming for government help.

I mean no disrespect to those who are in a real spot, but these guys were complaining about not having food or water within 72 hours. They did not prepare. They expected!

irish19| 11.19.12 @ 2:53PM

Stihl or Huskie?

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 3:45PM

I'm not in the biz, so I go with the consumer priced Poulan. Still running after twenty years.

TLP| 11.19.12 @ 3:29PM

What happened to you, on Friday?

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 4:14PM

TLP,

If you new how much time I'd spent with AT&T trying to get three wireless modems to talk (3 weeks), only to find that Verizon had us installed and working in Key West in 27 hours, you'd know that I was in no shape for the contest ;)

Al Adab| 11.19.12 @ 8:40AM

Gaza was given to its people many years ago. They had the opportunity to become the Hong Kong or Monte Carlo of the eastern Med. Free trade, international banking and resorts could have been their future and their dream.

Instead, they chose to give their government over to Hamas; to levy war against their neighbor (who gave them the land itself) and to become a surrogate for others with similar goals toward Israel.

While no great fan of Israel, we must recognize that it was established under international law and has the right to exist and to defend its people. It is a sad tragedy that such opportunities as Gaza once had vanished in a haze of hate.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 10:20AM

Al Adab,

Lebanon was that country. Ski in the morning, swim in the Med in the afternoon - the Paris of the Middle East. It has a secular government and disparate religious groups.

To have such a country people need to believe in living, not dying. That died forty years ago and will not return until those who believe in dying are, themselves, dead.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 10:29AM

Al Adab,

I meant to say... 'It HAD a secular government of disparater religious groups.'

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 10:29AM

Al Adab,

I'd better get of the coffee.... 'DISPARATE religious groups'

Dave Williams| 11.19.12 @ 1:05PM

Nazi Jack, it's time for you to emulate your hero and kill yourself...thus removing a hateful, disgusting presence from this site, and the world. Idiot.

Jack in Wi| 11.19.12 @ 11:03AM

The Israeli's have built a walled concentration camp in Gaza. The people there have no contol over their borders, skys, or coasts. The Israeli's are stealing the large natural gas resourses off the Gaza coast. Israel is a disgraceful country of racists, muderers, thieves and criminals. It is time to end it it not mend it. Let Israel be a normal country with equal rights for all the people in Israel Palistine. Justice would also demand large reparations for the Palistinians for all the theft, torture, and murder of the last 62 years.

KyMouse| 11.19.12 @ 4:35PM

Before Jews began returning to their ancient, God-given homeland, the Arabs had made it a wasteland (as Mark Twain and others observed).

In less than a century, however, Israel has become a productive land that grows so many flowers, vegetables and fruits, it exports them to other countries. Israel is a leader in technological innovation and pharmaceutical breakthroughs that have improved life for people all around the world (including me).

A 2008 study conducted by the John Kennedy School for Government at Harvard University found that 77 percent of Israeli Arabs would rather live in Israel than in any other country in the world. Those Israeli Arabs appreciate the fact that they have more freedoms, and a higher standard of living, than the vast majority of Arabs elsewhere.

The Jewish people have been a blessing to every nation in which they have lived. Their native land, Israel, has become a blessing to the entire world almost overnight, through innovations such as drip irrigation, camera pills (which allow doctors to see inside patients' digestive tracts), and even cherry tomatoes.

Israel's enemies are our enemies, too. They hate us as much as they hate Israel -- Little Satan and Big Satan are hated together. We cannot save ourselves by abandoning Israel.

irish19| 11.20.12 @ 6:22PM

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a reply from Jackboot on this one.
The truth hurts-especially your point about Israeli Arabs.

John786| 11.19.12 @ 9:05AM

Haji Al Adab,
I hope you are well. Israel was created by the league of nations. That state was much smaller than the state we have today. Israel's future lies in coming into accommodation with the Palestinian people. Its pretence of giving away some of the occupied land- Gaza- while entrenching it in other places - the West Bank- is no longer tenable. The Palestinians will be free one-day. The question is will Israel be part of the solution when that happens. For the Zionist project to survive Israel needs to move to the 67 borders and make some gesture to the refugees. This bargin has been on the table for the best part 25 years. War with the Palestinians ( or Iranians) will not make Israel safer.

John II| 11.19.12 @ 9:55AM

The so-called Palestinians will never be free so long as they live under the heel of addled thugs and cheap apologists like yourself.

Here's the basic divide. If an Israeli speaks out against a particular policy of his government, he gets a sounding board and full protection for his natural rights.

If an ordinary Palestinian dares to speak out against a current project of the ruling thugs-of-the-day, he gets his head chopped off.

By a quirk of history, Israel is now the democratic West's canary in the mine-shaft. If Israel is destroyed--which now seems likely within a decade or so--the degenerate West is finished.

And that outcome will mean a world-wide thugocracy enabled for a while by the likes of yourself, 786--until the thugs come for you too.

Al Adab| 11.19.12 @ 10:50AM

Hello John:
Still it saddens me to witness those in Gaza, turn their backs on the opportunity they were given in a quixotic quest to destroy (perhaps for the sake of 67 borders but I personally think not) a neighbor which whatever else may be their faults, still has the right to a national existence.

Al Adab| 11.19.12 @ 10:52AM

I note that there are two Johns, and this may apply to you both. More reason and less emotion is what the region needs. Frankly so does our nation. Too much acting on feelings has brought us to a dangerous pass.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 11:48AM

The reason "that state was much smaller than the state we have today" is that the Arabs refused the UN partition into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. They wanted it all, and invaded the new Jewish state. That's the root cause of the predicament that Arabs in the former Palestine find themselves in today. If they want to understand the cause of their displacement, they can look in the mirror.

C'mon Man!| 11.19.12 @ 12:12PM

Agreed - when you atack another country and lose, they get your land! Sorry, that's the way it is!

irish19| 11.19.12 @ 2:54PM

Exactly right!

KyMouse| 11.19.12 @ 9:45AM

"And the Lord your God will bring you into the land that your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it; and He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers." -- Deuteronomy 30:4-5

"...My people Israel...will rebuild the ruined cities and live in them...I will also plant them on their land, and they will not again be rooted out from their land which I have given them, says the Lord your God." -- Amos 9:14-15

The Bible foretold the expulsion of the ancient Israelites from their land, their wanderings and persecutions in other nations, and their return to their ancient homeland, against all odds. It foretold their transformation of that neglected land into a nation that has produced many blessings for the rest of the world (from drip irrigation to life-saving pharmaceuticals).

And the Bible foretold accurately that Israel would continually be beseiged by enemies, and face terrible times, but ultimately would be preserved by His power.

God keeps His promises. Watch.

John II| 11.19.12 @ 10:07AM

"God keeps His promises. Watch."

He does indeed. But the ways He does so are a perennial surprise. Given the extreme fecklessness of a collapsing West, it's going to be a BIG surprise if the state of Israel survives, but no big surprise if the people of Israel survive.

TLP| 11.19.12 @ 3:32PM

MY ways are not your ways, twinkle toes.

C. Vernon Crisler | 11.19.12 @ 9:59AM

"Whenever the Israel-Palestine conflict is in the news, too much ink is wasted over moralizing rather than analyzing. Instead of trying to explain what is going on, provide proper context, and predict reasonably what might follow, commentators bicker over who has the moral high ground."

You gave away the whole argument when you ruled out moral considerations from the start. Machiavellianism amorlism is not a good foundation for foreign policy.

Hardcard| 11.19.12 @ 11:19AM

Off topic ;Why does the dept. of homeland security, have in their arsenal: APC's, half-track vehicles, and other tactical military weapons deployed on USA soil? Just asking.

KennesawJack| 11.19.12 @ 2:09PM

They're for Obamarx's next re-election campaign.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 2:22PM

They're on hand to quickly dispense with any tin-foil hat secessionists -- domestic terrorists, in other words.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 2:35PM

RCV,

Yowww! No Posse Comitatus for you!

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 3:07PM

An Abraham Lincoln response is no less than what I and most Americans would insist on. Make no mistake about that.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 3:42PM

RCV,

Is this where liberalism leads us? We can't leave the country without triggering a death tax, and you will have us confederated at the point of a gun. Can the Berlin Wall be far behind?

As I mentioned before, the dissolution WILL occur. When and how remains the question to me. You are beginning to answer it.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 4:27PM

The Civil War settled that question, John, with the blood of many Americans. You'd have to be an idiot or utterly ignorant of American history not to know that. We are ONE country, now and forever. The American people are steadfast about the territorial integrity of this nation, and the inviolability of the Union. Please do not misapprehend that.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 4:28PM

... and there is no "Berlin wall". You are free to leave this country any time you wish. You are not free to take an inch of its territory with you.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 4:30PM

RCV,

You are beginning to sound more like George III than Sam Adams.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 4:32PM

RCV,

Let me expand a bit on that last flippant remark.

At the time of the revolution, may people were royalists, indeed many emigrated to Canada because of the revolution. The revolution was fought, not over land, but over a government which had become intolerable.

Here we have created a burdensome Federal government which is becoming more and more intolerable to freedom loving individuals. It is in that context that I compare you to George III.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 4:35PM

RCV,

Oh, I didn't say there was a Berlin Wall, I merely posit is possibility. I imagine California wishes they had one.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 4:42PM

RCV,

PS: I am neither an idiot or ignorant of American history. Perhaps you didn't know that.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 7:22PM

I'm well aware of how smart and reasonable a person you are, even when I disagree with you.

P.S. I'm not George III. Perhaps you didn't know that! :-)

Butch| 11.19.12 @ 8:08PM

John Navratil, RCV will always come down to force. You haven't been paying attention, I gather (perhaps I'm wrong). He will attempt to send your own sons and daughters to kill y0u when push comes to final shove. That is his bottom line. That's all he has, when it all comes down to it. I've caught him at it numerous times.

He always responds "Tut tut. That won't be necessary. A simple arrest will suffice." He ignores that the sheriff will be on my side.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 10:07PM

I doubt that Butch. The law enforcement folks I know take adherence to the law pretty seriously.

RCV| 11.19.12 @ 7:21PM

The big difference, John, is that we are a constitutional Republic in which you can try to persuade the rest of us that the way you view things public policy wise is correct; you've tried that and failed. You can also try an convince our independent Judiciary that something the Congress or the President is doing violates the fundamental compact called the Constitution; you've tried that as well and failed. Your remaining alternative is to try to convince the necessary number of states that the Constitution ought to be amended to reflect your views of the proper balances between states and central government, or among the branches of government, or by further curtailing all governments' powers. Go for it! You just can't take your ball and go home, because it's not your ball. It belongs to all of us.

John Navratil| 11.19.12 @ 8:01PM

RCV,

That's the nub of it. Tyranny takes all forms and a Constitutional Republic is not immune - as even Ben Franklin warned. I've said, tongue in cheek, that I could be as liberal as Ted Kennedy if the government were half its size. But it has gotten to be like that first drink for the alcoholic. It's much too small for half the populace and much too large for the other. It cannot persist as is evidenced by the stark polarization of the people, your faith in its permanence not withstanding.

Albert Constantine Jr.| 11.19.12 @ 5:26PM

At last, a thread by Mr. Aymenn Jawad Al-Tamimi that will be too crowded to use for Friday's contest.

Pecos Pete| 11.19.12 @ 7:34PM

Albert: There are too many trolls on this thread anyway. I don't want to read their crap again on Friday.

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