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Loose Canons
Obama’s Watergate
A brazen, unprecedented claim of executive privilege in Fast and Furious.
Presidential claims of executive privilege are the haute cuisine of politics. Served in a covered dish, they are mysteries that tantalize, the aromas evoking everything that the mind can conjure. What is the president trying to hide? In Watergate terms, what did the president know and when did he know it?
Obama’s assertion of executive privilege to prevent the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee from gaining access to Justice Department documents on the “Fast and Furious” gun walking operation has already served the president’s main purpose. By asserting executive privilege, Obama has blocked criminal consequences for Attorney General Eric Holder from any contempt of Congress resolution that may be passed. More importantly (at least to him), Obama has successfully blocked the disclosure of the documents at least until the November election. It is barely within the realm of possibilities that the courts will resolve the executive privilege claim to the F&F papers before then.
Others have analyzed the nature of Obama’s privilege assertion but one very important aspect hasn’t drawn the attention it deserves: the breadth of Obama’s assertion which, quite evidently, goes beyond what previous presidents have done and what the courts have decided is within a president’s power.
There is a host of presidential “executive privileges,” outlined very well in the D.C. Circuit’s Clinton-era opinion in In re Sealed Case. Let’s exclude for the purposes of this analysis other privileges that may protect some of the documents Holder refuses to produce, such as those that may reveal the identities of covert informants. What we are left with — and neither we nor the House committee yet know how many there may be — are tens of thousands of documents that Obama is seeking to protect under the so-called “presidential communications privilege” and its derivative, the “deliberative process privilege.” Neither is absolute, and the latter is weaker, subject to what the court called a “greater ease” in overcoming it.
The matter before us is whether Obama’s claim is an over-reach, another assertion that this White House has greater powers than have been granted it by the Constitution, law, and precedent.
According to a May memo to the committee written by Chairman Darrell Issa (R-CA), Operation Fast and Furious was conceived in the fall of 2009 by the Phoenix office of ATF. The idea was to allow illegal “straw man” purchases of weapons in the United States in the hopes that they could be traced to drug kingpins and financiers in Mexico. In January 2010, through the U.S. Attorney for Arizona, the program became an operation by the Justice Department’s Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force, approved by senior Justice Department officials and granted higher funding. The program went horribly awry, without an apparent effort to trace the approximately 2,000 weapons to the higher ranks of Mexico’s drug kingdom.
In December 2010, Border Patrolman Brian Terry was killed and two of those weapons were recovered at the scene of the murder. The F&F program thus became the focus of the House Committee’s investigation.
The October 2011 House subpoena to the Attorney General demanded production of 22 categories of documents. Included among them were:
- all documents related to F&F sent to or authored by Holder and fifteen other top Justice Department officials;
- all such documents of communications with the White House about F&F and other gun-trafficking cases;
- all documents showing ATF failure to interdict straw man gun purchases related to F&F;
- all documents of communications between the U.S. Attorney in Arizona, ATF and certain ATF agents related to F&F; and
- surveillance camera tapes, reports of investigation by ATF and the FBI; and
- all agendas, meeting notes, meeting minutes, and follow-up reports for the Attorney General’s Advisory Committee of U.S. Attorneys between March 1, 2009 and July 31, 2011, referring or relating to Operation Fast and Furious.
Over 78,000 documents related to Fast and Furious were turned over to the Justice Department’s Inspector General. Only about ten percent were produced to the House Committee. Holder has stonewalled on the rest, offering last week to brief the committee members on the contents of some of them on condition that the committee would agree that the briefing would satisfy the subpoenas. It wasn’t a good-faith offer: he knew the committee would have to reject it. Holder continues to refuse to turn any of the contested documents over to the committee.
The House Committee passed a resolution holding Holder in contempt of Congress. The House may vote on that resolution this week. Before the House committee voted on contempt, Obama asserted executive privilege on the documents Holder refuses to produce.
Because a president has to rely on his advisors, documents prepared by the advisors can be protected from disclosure by the “deliberative process” privilege to ensure a president can have access to the candid and informed advice he needs. But the scope of this privilege has, by Obama’s overly-broad assertion of it, become the issue.
As the court wrote in In re Sealed Case, the deliberative process privilege can protect some of the communications of presidential advisors that do not reach the president himself. The court ruled that the deliberative process privilege is inextricably bound to the presidential advisory process. If the documents in question were prepared in response to a request by the president’s staff for advice on a matter, even lower-ranking subordinates’ work can be protected by the deliberative process privilege. Obama’s assertion covers too many categories of documents that usually fall outside the privilege.
For example, documents that are summaries of facts are not usually protected nor are those that contain the analysis of facts and judgments of subordinates not involved in advising the president. From the descriptions of documents in the subpoena to Holder, it appears that most of the categories of documents requested fall outside the deliberative process privilege.
And what about those that don’t? Holder and Obama have put themselves in a dilemma: either the president and his top advisors were deeply involved in the Fast and Furious operation or Obama is abusing his power to conceal what misdeeds and illegal behavior took place.
About the Author
Jed Babbin served as a Deputy Undersecretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush. He is the author of several bestselling books including Inside the Asylum and In the Words of Our Enemies. You can follow him on Twitter @jedbabbin.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (149) | Leave a comment
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Aristocat| 6.25.12 @ 6:39AM
The Republicans fooled around with Holder for over a year, and now according to Jed it's too late to get the documents before the election..
Brooksifier | 6.25.12 @ 12:10PM
AW, you might not get your ex-governor of Taxachusetts in the White House. Sob, sniff.
Skippy| 6.25.12 @ 3:49PM
"Thanks!"
BHO
Brooksifier | 6.25.12 @ 5:29PM
Well, it does depend whose ox is gored: it was right to forgive all those involved in Iran Contra-- even that cock-up, Oliver North, because it was based on mistakes. But Clinton and Obama do not get forgiven because they are Democrats.
Fast and furious was a mistake, nothing more; any cover up is no worse than cover-ups involving Iran Contra. "I'm getting steamed", Reagan said in response to North's hinting of Reagan's implication-- or perhaps Reagan just didn't remember... you know, it slipped his mind; he.. FORGOT. And Bush simply ignored the subpoena sent to him later on (he was out of the loop anyway, Reagan didn't trust Bush that much).
Valerie Plame's outing was inconsequential, as has been pointed out many times since then. It too was a mistake.
Watergate consisted of mistakes as well, Nixon wasn't really a crook. But it was worth it to get rid of G. Gordon Liddy and the other a-holes.
chuck| 6.25.12 @ 8:44PM
At least no one died from these other "mistakes". How many hundreds or thousands of Mexicans have died from this "mistake"?
This is NO DAMNED MISTAKE! IT IS CRIMINAL AND COULD BE CONSIDERED AN ACT OF WAR!!
spike59| 6.26.12 @ 10:04AM
The Republicans fooled around with Holder for over a year
==================
actually, no; the Republicans have been doing their job; the AG has been lying and stonewalling from day one
TLP| 6.25.12 @ 6:54AM
First of all, this is not The Muslim's Watergate and it never will be, because nobody cares.
There is no Woodward and Bernstein equivalent these days. The Washington Post is still doing whatever they can to Run Cover for this guy, and 99% of the rest of the Media would do anything if he would just let them be his Urinal, at least once.
Hundreds of Dead Hispanics can be laid DIRECTLY TO HIM. His Attorney General. His ATF.
It would seem that Everyone of Interest has "Retired" or has been Sent Overseas, or conveniently Re-assigned, apparently to some place Off World. "Unavailable for questioning. Too busy to shed some light on this Operation of Premeditated Murder.
In April of 09, during a Press Conference with Mexico's Calderon, The Muslim said that "A lot of these guns, down here, came from America. They were bought in Southern States, and walked over the Border." Yeah. BY HIM!
And yet, nobody cares.
CBS ran the story, Months ago, about how this was all done to inflict as much Havoc as possible so as to use the pictures of all of the DEAD HISPANICS, that this President and this A.G. marked for Death, to get the American people to go along with Stricter "Long Gun" regulations.
CBS printed the Story, along with the Emails between those involved in the Administration. Since then CBS has gone quiet, apparently, once again, trading Indifference for Access. The Truth, for a good table at next years' Press Club Dinner.
He's gotta go.
Alan| 6.25.12 @ 7:53AM
There is nothing that this racist marxist clown and his POS racist AG could do that would cause the propaganda ministry known as the "main stream media" to investigate him in an objective manner. If this was a republican, it would be a 24 hour a day feeding frenzy, calls for resignation, and out and out declaring his presidency doa for the fall election. Nothing will come out of this and he knows it. There is NOTHING this clown can do that the media won't cover his @ss on. Pathetic, and after all its just nothing more than a repub-tea party plot to suppress the vote by bottling up the AG to keep him from doing his job keeping the voting "fair" (i.e. allowing black thugs to intimidate voters at key urban voting locations) acording to that great sage Pelosi!!!
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 8:24AM
Your Boy, Issa, just said the President is not involved in F&F - there goes another false political ploy down to defeat. Have a nice day!
Alan| 6.25.12 @ 9:25AM
Your boy, inv0lved in the initial planning and conception, maybe, maybe not, time will tell. All Issa said was he had NO Evidence at this time and that the investigation will continue. Now at least involved in the coverup for his stool pidgeon AG with the executive privilege ploy, up to his neck. Have a nice day!
Louis Jenkins| 6.25.12 @ 9:30AM
Issa did not say that the president wasn't involved, rather he has no evidence.
"Issa kept his focus on the Justice Department, clarifying that he has no evidence the White House was involved in any Fast and Furious cover-up. But he repeatedly said Congress is trying to get to the bottom of why the Justice Department "lied" about the operation."
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politic.....z1yoCRiu5r
Doctor Right| 6.25.12 @ 12:51PM
There's a distinct difference in being involved in the planning stages and being involved in the cover-up of the plan, once disclosed.
I'm not surprised that a liberal bonehead would fail to see the difference.
Drunken Sailor| 6.25.12 @ 2:34PM
Exactly. It wasn't so much the actions of Watergate that hurt Nixon. It was his attempted coverup. Question is, what is Obama trying to cover up?
Gary B| 6.25.12 @ 9:24PM
Martha Stewart went to jail for a lot less.
Louis Jenkins| 6.26.12 @ 10:29AM
"In a letter to Obama to be released Tuesday morning, the California Republican and chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee charged: “Either you or your most senior advisors were involved in managing Operation Fast & Furious and the fallout from it…or, you are asserting a presidential power that you know to be unjustified solely for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation."
That's about as close to an accusation as I've ever heard.
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 10:06AM
Hey ObamaBoy Purpie,
Issa said he believes O is not involved because they do not have evidence yet. The question is whether the House has evidence, that means evidence in court, of O's involvement. Once the documents are produced there will be evidence. If there is no evidence of O's involvement then he would have produced the records.
O disclosed all our interrogation methods, our cybernet war against Iran, the identity of Seal Team Six which resulted in an attack in Afghan on Seal Team Six, and the Iranian doctor who helped us find Osama and is now in jail. O has no problem disclosing secrets that harm the USA. But he will not disclose info that hurts him and his buddy,Holder.
Most likely there is no evidence that O approved or even thought about the program because he has been too busy golfing, fundraising, and vacationing. But there will be evidence he was involved in the coverup.
chuck| 6.25.12 @ 1:16PM
"Your Boy, Issa, just said the President is not involved in F&F - there goes another false political ploy down to defeat."
Then how does he claim executive privilege?
Oldefarte| 6.25.12 @ 5:17PM
First of all Putz, he's not a '''''President'''''and never will be. He's a community-organizing, lawyer-without-a-law-license street hustler for labor unions. Beyond that, he's a guy who lived in Bill Ayers' neighborhood [with the emphasis on HOOD]. If as you insinuate he was "not involved in F&F", then WTF is he exerting EXECUTIVE PRIVLEDGE for, dumbars???????
Cobalt| 6.25.12 @ 8:58AM
Someone called Iowahawk tweeted that "Fast and Furious" is "Watergate with toe tags."
KyMouse| 6.25.12 @ 12:33PM
Cobalt, 'twas Iowahawk who generously gave the world his excellent "green" parody of The Canterbury Tales -- see "Heere Bigynneth the Tale of the Asse-Hatte" at http://iowahawk.typepad.com/io.....nneth.html .
Cobalt| 6.25.12 @ 3:45PM
Thank you, KyMouse.
JP| 6.25.12 @ 7:08AM
Yet, the President's poll numbers in swing states like Virginia look great. I'm beginning to wonder that even if he declared martial law he would still be sitting at 48% approval numbers.
The power of the MSM.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 8:26AM
The weakness of Romney and the Republican argument, not the MSM. Most American like what President Obama has done as president. And, they don't like Romney or what he's record says about him.
Truth to Power| 6.25.12 @ 8:49AM
The gun running to Mexico that the big O's administration has conducted is pathetic and evil. People have died as a result of their incompetence. The economy is what is going to sink our worthless President though. Maybe we can send Holder to jail when the dust clears next year.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 9:56AM
Where guns go, people die. Is that news to you?
Alej| 6.25.12 @ 10:06AM
Where "teens" go, people die. Don't have a clue, do you.
Bill84728| 6.25.12 @ 10:47AM
Where gangsters go, people die, and yet some folks exalt gangsterdom and performances inspired by gangster attitudes and activities.
Doctor Right| 6.25.12 @ 3:54PM
Where Liberals go, economies die.
Maybe we should ban Liberals?
Gary B| 6.25.12 @ 9:27PM
I like it...
spike59| 6.26.12 @ 10:05AM
our adminstration is the provider of said guns, enabling multiple murders in Mexico and the US; that SHOULD be news
Bill84728| 6.26.12 @ 4:11PM
Not to mention exposure to personal liability for their intentional and negligent acts that caused death after death.
Doctor Right| 6.25.12 @ 12:53PM
"Most American like what President Obama has done as president."
Really?
So a 43% approval rating now = most?
You lost ALL credibility last week with your brilliant exposition on economics.
Do you want people to think you're nuts, too?
Drunken Sailor| 6.25.12 @ 1:08PM
A little late on that warning doc.
Oldefarte| 6.25.12 @ 5:21PM
That's BS! Most Americans do NOT "like what President Obama has done as president". Polls/surveys indicate same but numbers are manipulated and people LIE [ie ya boy] when surveyed, since to tell the truth would then result in their being accused of being racists, discriminatory etc. The TRUTH of his populatrity will be revealed on 11/6/12!!!!!!!!
Gary B| 6.25.12 @ 9:28PM
Oldefarte,
Purp is like Obama; he just says stuff.
Alej| 6.25.12 @ 10:05AM
the power of clueless voters who shouldn't have the right to vote.
Von Mises Jr| 6.25.12 @ 7:21AM
Jed is mistaken about the nature of the operation.
In 2007, Bush ended a program called "Wide Receiver" where they sent 400 semi-automatic weapons into Mexico with RFID tags and consent of the Mexican Authorities. The guns were tracked and drug operations infiltrated resulting in arrests. But the problem occurred when the drug gangs realized the guns were being tracked and removed the RFID tags. So the Bush Administration ended the program and vowed it would "never happen again."
But in 2009, Obama regime launched "Fast and Furious" where 2,000 semi-automatic weapons were sent to Mexico without RFID tags, they were not tracked and no attempts were made at arresting drug gang members.
The difference between "Wide Receiver" and "Fast and Furious" is that the former was a sting operation to stop the flow of drugs and minimize violence while the latter was a political ploy to kill Mexicans so that the U.S. Government could enforce more stringent gun laws.
The essence of "Fast and Furious" was to facilitate murders so that Second Amendment Rights could be curtailed. If you did not know the socialist meaning of "the ends justify the means," now you do!
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 8:28AM
Wrongo - Issa has just said the President is not involved in F&F .
The Obama knew nothing about the ongoing pgm under the AZ ATF, and they admitted under oath to Congress they did not tell the Obama Administration or Holder about the program. Read the testimony, so you get it straight.
So you don't know what you're talking about - again.
Bill84728| 6.25.12 @ 10:48AM
Is this like "I did NOT have sex with that woman?"
Fast and Curious| 6.25.12 @ 10:58AM
I'm sure the incriminating documents were stuffed in someone's pants and later burned, ala Sandy Boy.
buckeyeman| 6.25.12 @ 11:47AM
Hey Purple Monster, if your Prez didn't know about it, then how does EXECUTIVE privilege apply?
Holder has already lied to Congress and also submitted false information in the form of documents which were later recalled. Obama, like Nixon before him, is has now involved himself in the cover-up. What Obama knew and when he knew it are the subject matter of the investigation. That's why people do investigations, you know. If Obama has nothing to hide, then why is he hiding it?? Why are you so opposed to us citizens just finding out the truth???
Doctor Right| 6.25.12 @ 12:55PM
So if F&F is really a Bush-era program, and presumably Bush's fault...
...then why doesn't Obama release the documents and prove once and for all what a BAD President Bush was??
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?????
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 1:10PM
If there was any shred of evidence that Bush was involved, or even thought about involving, or even used the words fast and furious while in office, then Obama would have disclosed these records to the New York Times and faxed them even to his pet, Obamaboy.
Von Mises Jr| 6.25.12 @ 2:59PM
CJW and Doc,
I explain this above, but here is the gist of it:
In 2007, Bush ended a program called "Wide Receiver" where they sent 400 semi-automatic weapons into Mexico with RFID tags and consent of the Mexican Authorities. The guns were tracked and drug operations infiltrated resulting in arrests. But the problem occurred when the drug gangs realized the guns were being tracked and removed the RFID tags. So the Bush Administration ended the program and vowed it would "never happen again."
But in 2009, Obama regime launched "Fast and Furious" where 2,000 semi-automatic weapons were sent to Mexico without RFID tags, they were not tracked and no attempts were made at arresting drug gang members.
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 3:19PM
Von
Good summary.
Why confuse Purpie/Lefties with the facts?
DRed| 6.25.12 @ 4:18PM
Except Von's 'facts' are wrong. Only a minority of the operation wide receiver guns had RFID tags which didn't work at preventing guns from getting into the hands of the cartels (perhaps that's why it wasn't used in Fast & Furious) and the cooperation with Mexican officials was also bungled. Wide Receiver was almost as incompetent as Fast & Furious.
Drunken Sailor| 6.25.12 @ 4:38PM
So your saying that Operation Wide Receiver was botched. The ATF, DOJ, etc knew this but decided to do this again with even more weapons, no tracking devices and not bothering to tell the Mexican goverment this time?
And that was a improvement how?
DRed| 6.25.12 @ 4:51PM
It's not an improvement. It makes Fast & Furious even worse.
TLP| 6.25.12 @ 4:46PM
Project Linebacker was done with the FULL COOPERATION of the Mexican Government, as opposed to The Muslim's Gun Running.
They were outfitted with Tracking Scanners, and it was TERMINATED in 2007.
Why are you talking Sh*t?
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 5:21PM
No Americans were killed by Bush's program. Not a question of competence, a question of accountability for the death of Brian Terry.
DRed| 6.25.12 @ 6:12PM
Sure. But facts are still facts. Operation Wide Receiver wasn't a carefully coordinated success. It was (like Fast & Furious) a reckless failure.
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 6:28PM
You keep dodging the issue or trying to divert from the issue.
The issue is the coverup and lying by Obama's regime. There is no charge that Bush lied to Congress about his operation. There is no question that Obama's Justice Dept lied to Congress in its Feb 2011 letter.
TLP| 6.25.12 @ 6:58PM
That's why it was DISCONTINUED.
spike59| 6.26.12 @ 10:14AM
does anyone truly believe there was any intent to track these guns. except in the hope that, were they to turn up later at the scenes of shootings of 'Holder's people" (to paraphrase the AG's take on which portion of the American people he was hired to serve) so the administration would have a 'crisis' that could not have been let 'go to waste? '
Democrats in Congress would have been furiously writing even more anti-Second Amendment legislation, with the engineered howls and cackles of outrage from the MSM and the Leftist blogosphere in the background
chuck| 6.25.12 @ 1:24PM
No f#cking way any ATF agent will undertake something like F&F without authorization from the top. This is accessory to murder.
TLP| 6.25.12 @ 4:48PM
No Fcking way an effeminate POS, like Holder, puts his own head in a noose, without the express Orders from his Messiah.
No Fcking Way.
Oldefarte| 6.25.12 @ 5:24PM
You're an idiot with a capital ''''I''''''. See my above....WHY IS THE JACKARS NOW EXERTING EXECUTIVE PRIVLEDGE if he was 'not involved in F&F'. the concept of EP assumes that he and his advisors were INVOLVED, otherwise they could not claim EP. G-d you're stupid!!!!!!!!
spike59| 6.26.12 @ 10:07AM
no, that's NOT what Issa said-he said that he has not seen anything directly tying ObaMao to F&F; that's not the same thing, when 92% of the relevant documents are being withheld
Cobalt| 6.25.12 @ 9:05AM
"Follow the Ideology"
By Bill Whittle at PJTV
http://www.pjtv.com/
irish19| 6.25.12 @ 1:54PM
I watched that and shared it to my FB page. Brilliant piece by Whittle.
Anthony| 6.25.12 @ 9:12AM
To hell with Watergate. This is way past Watergate. This involves official policy from Obozo and Holder that led to murder. How about arrest warrants??
Von Mises, you are absolutely correct. Your analysis is spot on. Obozo and Holder saw an opportunity to do an end around the 2nd Amendment, Alinsky style, with a criminal policy that set this entire sordid episode into action.
It backfired, and two American agents are dead at the hands of the Mexican drug cartel, along with hundreds of Mexicans, due to the criminal acts of this administration.
The pols in D.C. will not touch this explosive issue, nor, apparently, will the conservative media. Obozo and Holder are accessories to murder. See my post below.
Bill84728| 6.25.12 @ 10:51AM
I've always enjoyed the way people get so indignant over Watergate, which was simply a part of underhanded tactics to get President Nixon re-elected.
Gun-running to Mexican drug lords seems infinitely more wrong, but morally and legally, and yet the level of excitement and sense of betrayal is nowhere what it was during Watergate. People were glued to the TV during Sam Ervin's hearings.
Bill84728| 6.25.12 @ 10:51AM
"Both morally and legally," not "but morally and legally." Sorry.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 8:23AM
"Darrell Issa Contradicts John Boehner On Fast And Furious, Admits No Knowledge Of Obama Involvement" - Whoopsie, guess you didn't get the memo. The head of the Congressional Investigation just absolved the President. Sad such a writer is allowed to promote his rumors on AS. Check your facts, bud, before shooting off your mouth.
Alan| 6.25.12 @ 9:34AM
Thats not an absolution Idiot, he said he has no evidence and the investigation will continue. Nobody has been absolved of anything.
Alan| 6.25.12 @ 9:36AM
This is good, you want the marxist wearing his Holder necklace around his neck right up to election day.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 10:02AM
You are presumed innocent in this country until PROVEN guilty - is that not our laws? Or do you want the president subjected to harsher law than you? I suspect you do.
If you have no evidence of wrongdoing - then you are innocent. But, I guess he'll keep spending millions on his wild-goose chase, 'cause it's good for the peanut gallery that b*tch about spending money. But that's okay, huh?
Big Bob| 6.25.12 @ 10:55AM
In a court of law, you are presumed innocent. The MSM has convicted several individuals recently for whom NO evidence was found: e.g. Mr. Zimmerman in Fla. I guess they never heard what YOU are saying. Doesn't matter.
Anthony| 6.25.12 @ 5:17PM
Correct Big Bob, our presumption standard applies to the courtroom, not the courtroom of public opinion, as you so eloquently stated when it comes to Mr. Zimmerman.
When congressional Democrat whores are on the warpath looking for a R scalp, their mantra is, "it's the seriousness of the charge that requires investigation", regardless of the nature of the proof.
How many times did they pull this shit on Reagan and Bush?
This charge is more than serious, it's downright murderous. Obozo and Holder are accessories to MURDER. That is the absolute truth!!
buckeyeman| 6.25.12 @ 11:51AM
So are you saying that the presumption of innocence precludes any investigation? That's idiotic. There is an appearance of wrongdoing on someone's part. Common sense suggests to many of us that this kind of program would have needed authorization from those higher in the chain. We don't yet know how high. So we want to investigate, but you say the presumption of innocence means we can never investigate. Is that really your position?
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 12:36PM
Obamaboy Purpie,
Innocent until proven guilty applies to criminal cases in criminal court.
We are dealing, at this point, with a civil matter, and the court of public opinion. O's involvment does not have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt unless he is charged criminally.
Doctor Right| 6.25.12 @ 12:57PM
Hey, Dummy...
He said he has "no knowledge," not "no reason to investigate."
Issa is choosing his words very carefully.
That's why they want the documents.
If I was Obama, and I had nothing to be worried about, I'd release them all and make the GOP look like they're on a witch-hunt. That would definitely gain me valuable points in an election year.
So...why doesn't he do that?? If he's got nothing to worry about?
Hmmmmmmmm????
irish19| 6.25.12 @ 1:56PM
Issa has done this whole thing by the numbers. He has taken a lot of flack from the right for moving deliberately. I think we're getting very close to seeing the payoff.
Louis Jenkins| 6.25.12 @ 8:25AM
Dear Mr. Von Mises:
Correct. Yes, Bush did have an operation called "Wide Receiver", and yes, when the dust cleared his administration stated "Never Again." Obama and Holder, unlike Bush, have stepped outside of the law. Mexican authorities were completely aware of Bush's program, but completely unaware of Obama's and Holder's. Outside the law. What is the public to think of this last program, particularly when they're caught with their hands in the ammo dump? Obama wasted no time declaring executive privilege when Holder failed. Can you imagine what the BATF agents thought when they were told by their supervisors to stop pursuing the weapons? Holder has lied, two American citizens, and countless Mexican citizens, have died as a result of their efforts. The White House speaker couldn't remember the names of the two American victims last week?
I'll go out on a limb, people, and tell you that Obama's and Holder's efforts were to show to the American public that weapons were indeed being taken into Mexico by the drug cartels without any oversite. Stricter gun control is needed for the domestic market. Entirely correct, Mr. Von Mises, the Second Amendment is just about the only amendment that hasn't been curtailed by the Obama administration. Mr. Obama, go ahead and draw if you're feeling froggy.
Read Rachael Mad(c)ows latest rant about Fast and Furious. It is anything but the truth. That is if you read such kindergarden garbage.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 8:39AM
"Darrell Issa Contradicts John Boehner On Fast And Furious, Admits No Knowledge Of Obama Involvement" - Whoopsie, guess you didn't get the memo. The head of the Congressional Investigation just absolved the President.Check your facts, bud, before shooting off your mouth.
Albert Constantine Jr.| 6.25.12 @ 8:56AM
Keep posting it over and over, and maybe it will become true.
I believe what Congressman Issa said is that there is no evidence at this time that the White House is involved. Of course, if he is not involved, than his executive privilege is unlawfully asserted, and invalid.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 9:23AM
You're an idiot. From Feb 4 2011 to Dec 2011, those deliberations are what are covered by the Exec Privilege - AFTER the program became public, and AFTER Holder and Obama knew of the program and ended it. THAT is not going to tell anyone why/how/who about the program.
Arizona ATF testified under oath to Congress that they did not inform either Holder or Obama about the program - until the Terry killing made it all public.
Geesh, get out of your Fixed News Lala-land.
Von Mises Jr| 6.25.12 @ 9:39AM
So Jefferson, was the Justice Department letter of lies to Senator Grassley due to perjury or gross incompetence?
We know liberals LIE since the "ends justify the means." That is why I don't even take you seriously. You are a clown.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 9:53AM
Like I said, Simma Cum Laude (your own words), ATF did not inform them, Holder wrote the letter and found out later that it was an ongoing program, which he then shut down. Who's LYING now, ratbrain?
Von Mises Jr| 6.25.12 @ 10:35AM
The best you have is quoting "Simma" since I mistakenly hit the "i" instead of the "u" that is next to it on the keyboard? That is pathetic.
That and the Marx technique of ad hominem attacks seem to be all you have, Obama boy.
The letter to Grassley denied that there was a program "Fast and Furious." So are they liars or grossly incompetent?
irish19| 6.25.12 @ 1:58PM
Why not both?
Skippy| 6.25.12 @ 4:05PM
"I'm shocked, SHOCKED that gun-running is going on in my Administration".
BHO
Big Bob| 6.25.12 @ 10:58AM
Did it ever occur to you that some of these testimonies UNDER OATH may not be honest or truthful? Heck, Obama is violating his oath to uphold the Constitution daily!! Now we think testimony under oath is the last word? Who do you think you are? Alan Dershowitz???
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 12:44PM
Obamaboy Purpie,
As usual you lie about facts and don't know the law. The period from Feb 2011 to Dec 2011 is the period of the coverup, Idiot, not the period of deliberation. Deliberating about a coverup is not the purpose for executive privilige. And even deliberating to implement the program is not a matter of national security requiring a privilige. O had to prove the privilige applies and is necessary. Want to bet he will lose?
And, why is is ok for O to release all our interrogation methods, all our cybernet wars methods against Iran, the identity of Seal Team Six, and the Iranians who helped us get Osama, but when it comes to a stupid program that killed an American and hundreds of Mexicans, then Obama discovers secrecy?
What is O and Erick hiding besides their stupidity?
What happened to the most transparant administration in history?
Gary B| 6.25.12 @ 9:33PM
CJW,
Purp is like Obama; he just says stuff.
Albert Constantine Jr.| 6.25.12 @ 1:51PM
"You're an idiot".
Purp, it is a shame to see someone resort to name calling when they have insufficient facts or argument to support their position.
As someone who has worked extensively with ATF, FBI and the USDOJ, your remarks "Arizona ATF testified under oath to Congress that they did not inform either Holder or Obama about the program " are irrelevant. While ATF agents from Arizona would communicate with either the local US Attorney's office or with ATF headquarters, they would not be communicating with the POTUS or AG. That communication would be done at USDOJ, and that is what the subpoenaed documents would reveal the extent of regarding the content and distribution of the information.
To deny that such communication took place (particularly if you are not in a position to review these documents, such as the IG was) is the errand of a dishonest jackass, which is a task that suits you well.
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 3:17PM
Albert
Purpie lies routinely about facts and the law. I am sure based on your work experience you are familiar with the street lawyers.
Last year Purpie kept insisting Obama passed a law to end discrimination against women for employment. That has been the law since the Civil Rights Laws of the 1960's. Obama signed a law dealing with the statute of limitations for continuing pay violations to start the time from the last pay.
Don't trust any facts or laws he cites.
Albert Constantine Jr.| 6.25.12 @ 9:34PM
He never lets an absence of facts to support his positions inhibit his excessive posts.
Louis Jenkins| 6.25.12 @ 9:36AM
Absolved? You make it sound as though they've went to trial and found Obama and Holder not guilty of all charges. Issa admits no knowledge, which is different from saying that Obama is in it up to his ears. Check your facts budroe, before you fire out both ends.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 9:54AM
Kinda like Cheney not being involved in Valerie Plame, huh? Just can't stand it when you can't pin something on Ol' Obama, can you?
Shadow| 6.25.12 @ 11:40AM
Go to pushbacknow.net/2012/06/20/bombshell-proof-obama-and-holder-knew-about-gun-walking-in-2009/ and view the video where administration officials, including Napolitano, are on tape acknowledge the operation and give full credit to OBAMA for implementing it. There is the proof of his involvement or his appointees were lying.
Doctor Right| 6.25.12 @ 12:59PM
Cheney wasn't involved in the Valerie Plame non-scandal, dimwit.
The man who leaked the info. about Valerie Plame was Richard Armitage.
You do read, don't you?
Skippy| 6.25.12 @ 4:07PM
"You do read, don't you?"
Obviously not.
CJW| 6.25.12 @ 6:31PM
He can read, He purposely lies to attempt to divert from the issue of the Obama regime coverup, and the death of Brian Terry.
Louis Jenkins| 6.26.12 @ 10:32AM
"In a letter to Obama to be released Tuesday morning, the California Republican and chairman of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee charged: “Either you or your most senior advisors were involved in managing Operation Fast & Furious and the fallout from it…or, you are asserting a presidential power that you know to be unjustified solely for the purpose of further obstructing a congressional investigation."
About as close to an accusation as one can get.
Mimi | 6.25.12 @ 8:42AM
More downright BRAZEN from this crew !
The "JIG" didn't like the "TUNE" you were telling...wanted the real un-varnished Truth !
The people elect Representatives in 435 places thru-out this country to speak for them...you delayed them long enough. It is the PEOPLE you hold in CONTEMPT.
The documents that do not come under the Presidents Executive privilege must be forthcoming.
Your getting "SUPER-FUNDING" for you're endeavor ....Hmmmm. You failed to put out any sweat or effort to trace 2000 guns ....Incompetence, and hard work avoided...and the "LIFE" of Brian Terry snuffed out!
The Dem's now feel sorry for the likes of you...you are a victum? More switcheroo..!
Anthony| 6.25.12 @ 8:52AM
Well, for the first time in any publication, especially a conservative one, FINALLY, over at AT, someone finally posted that Obozo and Holder were criminally liable for the death of two American agents as a result of "Fast & Furious".
I don't know why the conservative media is dancing around this, other than fear and cowardice. Obviously, we know why the leftist media is in denial.
I've been saying this for over a month now. Blacks Law Dictionary defines accessory as follows: Contributing to or aiding in the commission of a crime. One who, without being present at the commission of a felonious offense, becomes guilty of such offense, not as a chief actor, but as a participator, as by command, advice, instigation, or concealment."
It's long past time Obozo and Holder were arrested, damn the consequences. The American people know what the pols refuse to admit.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 9:24AM
And, they are wrong as most conservative rags are. Just to gin up propaganda, again, as usual. There is no there here. You'll see - at millions of your tax dollars expense - think about that boyo.
Skippy| 6.25.12 @ 4:09PM
I look forward to spending billions prosecuting the black racists in this Admin.
Von Mises Jr| 6.25.12 @ 9:31AM
Excellent research and salient argument, Anthony. I do not watch FOX News virtually at all except the Business Channel featuring Cavuto and Dobbs, so I cannot comment on the extent or accuracy of their coverage.
The MSM is spinning this since they understand that even if Obama is re-elected, he could very well be impeached or forced to resign as Nixon did.
Perhaps Fox is avoiding it since it is more complicated to understand the nuances similar to Agenda21, issues regarding "Rule of Law" and National Security Leaks. Many people, especially Perp were never taught to think critically or to examine premises, so I can see why this is not front page, lead story.
But for those of us that can reason, we understand that this is a perfect example of socialist "ends justify the means." And in this case, it is nothing less than accessory to murder.
Anthony| 6.25.12 @ 10:03AM
Von, You're too kind. This is basic black letter law that any 1st year law student would be taught in Introduction to Criminal Law. That is why the silence is so deafening. Where are the so called legal experts??? Scared, plain scared.
Clearly, for the conservative media to take this step, when it can barely discuss contempt and Executive Privilege without weak knees, shows how corrupt all media have become, especially the left.
The fear of White House intimidation, through direct assaults, denial of access, along with peer pressure from the corrupt leftist media, shows how dependent the media have become on access rather than independent journalism. They run the news like regular programing, what they can get away with, rather than real journalism.
And don't forget the heard mentality. All of the media are scared to stray too far from the standard line. They, like our pols, are the biggest cowards in the land.
Memo to Purp: Keep bleating like the pathetic troll that you are. But be careful, we'd just as soon step on trolls like you than read your drivil. We've had it.
There is no there here you say, eh? Well, boyo, only in your fevered mind.
Move On, isn't that what you trolls say??
We say, move on, and be gone......
Von Mises Jr| 6.25.12 @ 10:40AM
You must remember that the MSM and trolls are not that smart, Anthony. And their audience is even duller.
The problem Perp has is that virtually everyone that reads at this site is at least twice as intelligent and informed as he is. He is like a butcher explaining to a surgeon how to operate.
TLP| 6.25.12 @ 4:54PM
Actually, they are Complicate in the Murders of HUNDREDS of innocent Hispanic Men, Women, and Children.
Watergate?
Valerie Plame?
This is about MURDER.
Kwan| 6.25.12 @ 9:46AM
Of course it's only logical that if you elect a criminal to be your President he will naturally surround himself with other criminals or czars. The United States has been under assault since January 2oth 2009 by an internal enemy seeking to fundamentally transform the country into an Orwellian People's Republic. Needless to say such an agenda is not in the President's job description and he needs to be impeached or thrown out of office on November 6th along with the other traitors (Democrats) who participated in this treachery.
squalis| 6.25.12 @ 9:56AM
This is not Watergate. The MSM, instead of exposing a cover-up, is an eager participant.
Anthony| 6.25.12 @ 11:04AM
Yup, Dan Rather, we hardly knew ye, except for the leftist hack that you are.
Same with "Woodstein" and Sally Quinn's diaper baby, Ben Bradlee.
,
paintbrush| 6.25.12 @ 9:56AM
Purp: Regardless or Boehner or Issa said, By January 2010, the case became an OCDETF investigation. This is a deliberate process. ATF and the U.S. attorney had to apply to Main Justice for OCDETF status. The OCDETF designation enabled Fast and Furious investigators to use wiretaps. This is highly unusual in ATF-run cases as almost all federal wiretapping is done in investigations led by the FBI or the DEA..The key issue is that the wiretap applications would show that senior DOJ officials were aware of the gunwalking tactic long before Agent Terry was gunned down on December 14, 2010. Why this is so important: OCDETF cases get the attention of the Justice Department’s top hierarchy and that gets the attention of the attorney general and magically gets the attention of the President…..who in this case invoked executive privilege.
Purp, your just one hooker short of a Kennedy Family Reunion.
Purp| 6.25.12 @ 10:05AM
Proof of all that load of bs please? If it is so well known factual, it must in public domain, right? Link please? Source please. Lacking that, it's just a bunch of right-wing "piecing" together of bits of facts and huge fill-ins of presumed "it has to be this way" fantasies - all to prove your position. So prove it with real, public information - Link please, or it's all bull.
Louis Jenkins| 6.26.12 @ 10:37AM
As much as you despise the network, Fox news talked about the OCDETF program yesterday. I'm sure that such a despised network as Fox carried it, then the other networks would have mentioned it too.
They didn't?
Hmmmm.....
Jack London| 6.25.12 @ 10:31AM
Nothing to see here. No smoking gun. Please move along to your next right-wing fabrication.
Big Bob| 6.25.12 @ 11:00AM
Really? That's interesting. I for one would like to know why Mr. Holder withdrew his letter to the committee dated Feb.2011. It was full of fabrications. That alone is worth getting to the bottom of scandal. And yes, there is a smoking gun...it killed a US agent. Get a clue.
Skippy| 6.25.12 @ 4:41PM
Whistling past the graveyard.
TLP| 6.25.12 @ 4:55PM
You, really have to start IGNORING him.
Seriously.
spike59| 6.26.12 @ 10:27AM
Nothing to see here. No smoking gun.
========================
same thing Nixon, Haldeman, Ehrlichmann, Colson, Mitchell, and Dean were all saying before the tapes came out
BTW, the smoking gun was found next to the corpse of Brian Terry; and it has Holder's fingerprints on it
Drunken Sailor| 6.25.12 @ 11:27AM
My, My the liberal trolls are sure up in arms this morning. Question, if there is nothing to hide and Holder was on the level, then why two different stories out of the DOJ, and just how does it jeapordize our national security for members of Congress to know who authorized and knew about what? And if there is no national security issue then just why is Obama useing Executive privilege to protect someone?
Shadow| 6.25.12 @ 11:42AM
Their liberal lord has been shown to be a crook with feet of clay.
Bill84728| 6.25.12 @ 12:25PM
They're excited because of the Supreme Court decision on the Arizona immigration law. They've got the bit in their teeth now, all right.
Pecos| 6.25.12 @ 11:55AM
In the last year and a half I have read every article on Fast and Furious that I could find. I have read every comment on those articles. Never before has a Lefty troll made one single comment. Not one.
They are out in force now.
A good sign that this story has broken thru to the mainstream. It is about time.
TLP| 6.25.12 @ 4:55PM
No.
Ot's too little, too late.
Who Knows?| 6.25.12 @ 12:11PM
Fast and Furious?
What was it Shakespeare wrote about the sound and fury signifying nothing? The bard still lives.
Here’s the thing---Vince Foster did NOT kill himself, he was murdered!
Clinton DID rape that woman---was it Juanita Broderick?
Maybe in 2032 we’ll be as hot and bothered by the outrage of the day, and have forgotten all about Fast and Furious, just as now, in 2012, we’ve “moved on” from all crimes of a Clinton nature, like the Vince Foster “mystery”.
Forgive them, lord, they know not what they do.
This too shall pass.
In the meantime, our mean times, though, it sure is fun and DISTRACTING entertainment to pay attention to the court jesters in D.C., as they play to the crowd, the current administration ever daring to try to top the previous ones.
Whatever one is doing, there it is!
Why live a long life?
Experienced people rarely make mistakes. How to gain experience? By making mistakes.
Take care.
Hug her! (I knew a foxy Jewess named Care at UCSB in 1970)
Moving consciously---being self conscious of WHAT one is doing, AS one does it: that’s the ticket. To what?
A consciously chosen and controlled life, as ready and alert as possible, whatever the UNEXPECTED future brings.
Be Consciousness.
Bill84728| 6.25.12 @ 12:28PM
"Tomorrow, tomorrow, and tomorrow creeps in this petty pace
To the last syllable of recorded time, and all our candles
Have lighted fools the way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor fool who struts and frets his hour upon the stage;
It's a tale, told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, and signifying nothing."
Bill84728| 6.26.12 @ 9:10AM
Creeps in this petty pace "from day to day"
My bad.
Tom Kyba| 6.25.12 @ 12:31PM
So we've been complaining for how long now about how anyone with even half a brain can see that the MSM simply ignores malfeasance by Dems and has been doing so full bore since Clinton. Now Purp tunes in CNN, finds no mention of Fast & Furious and chides people here for not having proof. Since I'm sure Purp considers himself above petty politics, no doubt he'd be saying the same thing if the situation was identical except with Bush in power. Since lack of interest by CNN is your barometer Purp, and since in your opinion seems to be that only Republicans are dirty(lalalalalalalala), I'm sure we could go back to Sandy Burgler stuffing papers from the Archives into his socks as just a misunderstanding. Since the MSM wasn't interested, it must mean that he was just, you know, helping the janitor clean up. So tell us Purp, early in the days of yours and other leftists wet dream of Watergate, did everyone have all the proof they needed right away, or was there a long period of guessing, denials etc? You are obviously having a grand time now being all snotty and smug, but the issue is not done with yet and won't be for a while. So for now, have fun fondling your self-esteem.
P.S. Unintentionally funny comment of the day:
"Most Americans like what Obama has done as president."
BackToBasics| 6.25.12 @ 2:45PM
The MSM is still more interested in reporting on Nixon's Watergate than anything illegal being done currently or in the recent past by Obam or any other Democrat.
DWoDiego| 6.25.12 @ 7:10PM
To: President of the United States
From: Attorney General of the United States
Dear Barracky,
As you have no doubt observed, we are "fast and furiously" getting into a bit of a tight spot with this Issa guy regarding our involvement with our attempt to ban all private ownership of guns by the citizenry. (notice the pun with fast and furious, ha, ha....as you know I believe in keeping the stress neutralized with the strategic use of humor) But I digress Bamy, the fact is I am running out of ways to head this guy off. Obviously we can not let our communications on this issue be allowed to see the light of day. To do so would be a disastor to your election and thus the plans we have for your second critical term.
Gone would be the opportunity to further install the Socialist doctrine we have for so long yearned to accomplish. While we were able to take over the health care industry, we have barely started with our EPA's policies aimed at destoying the oil and coal industry and implementing subsidized "green energy", no matter the realities of its readiness. As we have detirmined, through this policy of subsidies to our friends in the green energy sector we can not only consolidate our control of this important segment of the economy but bleed the private sector of wealth which as we know is a giant step towards our ultimate goal of a government control economy.
(part 2 to follow)
DWoDiego| 6.25.12 @ 7:45PM
Letter to the President continued...
Sorry Baracky, I was called away to a staff meeting regarding your new immigration law, I mean directive.
So as discussed many times, we will implement our general strategy of installing our socialist agenda along with the right people to carry it out within every department and agency in the U. S. government. Before too long it will be too late for any future administration to undo our vision.
But to finish this objective we must have your second term in place, so it is with this in mind that I strongly recommend that you immediately invoke Executive Privilege on this investagation or risk the exposure of your involvement. I know this is not an ideal developement at this crucial time in the election cycle, but it is necessary.
Let me know your decision so I can get our propaganda machine working on the best way to smoke screen this situation. We can obviously count on our usual media allies to divert attention and sway public opinion. With their support this will surely be forgotten in no time and you will suffer no ill consequences.
Long live Socialism, humanities only hope for our salvation and justice.
Thank you Barracky, not only for your help in this matter, but more importantly for your unwavering leadership and enlightened guidance at this our most crucial moment in this revolution.
Yours in Awe,
Eris "Holdy" Holder- Your Attorney General
paintbrush| 6.25.12 @ 8:38PM
Purp let’s start on March 22, 2011, in an interview on Spanish-language television, President Obama, brought up Fast and Furious in what were obviously considered remarks. He declared that the attorney general has been very clear that he knew nothing about this.” But weeks earlier,on February 4, 2011 which was nearly two months after Agent Terry was killed Justice Department sent Congress a letter flatly denying it. We now know, were outrageous falsehoods. Now OCDETF which stands for the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force….. OCDET has its own special site on the DOJ website and they state the most important of these “related enterprises” is the illegal acquisition and use of guns……which, give the departments the ability to increase jail sentences upon conviction…which means bottomless funding and tons of resources.
The simple fact is that all this was done at Headquarters in Washington because the efforts come under Main Justice’s Leadership. Since witetaps were used and constantly used in these cases it is inconceivable that discussions about the case were not ongoing between the U.S. attorney’s office and Main Justice because of the OCDETF designation, which means that Holder and everyone else at the top of the food chain knew……bottom line is the chief law enforcement officer of the country lied before Congress….
Kingofthenet| 6.25.12 @ 11:36PM
When you got these little gun shops in the middle of nowhere near the border selling 10x more 'Assault type' weapons than a Walmart in Good 'ol Boy Country, you know you have a problem. Who is buying these things? All F&F did was expose what has/continues to go on for YEARS. How many weapons do you think these places have sold BEFORE they started tracking them? These 'Straw Buyers' have been gaming the system for YEARS before the President took office, but you 2nd Amendment NUTS refused to see common sense, so NOW the BLOOD is on YOUR hands, now when can we close these shops down?
xcvgfudsia | 6.25.12 @ 11:36PM
When you got these little gun shops in the middle of nowhere near the border selling 10x more 'Assault type' weapons than a Walmart in Good 'ol Boy Country, you know you have a problem. Who is buying these things? All F&F did was expose what has/continues to go on for YEARS. How many weapons do you think these places have sold BEFORE they started tracking them? These 'Straw Buyers' have been gaming the system for YEARS before the President took office, but you 2nd Amendment NUTS refused to see common sense, so NOW the BLOOD is on YOUR hands, now when can we close these shops down?
spike59| 6.26.12 @ 10:25AM
the FACT is, that these gun shops sounded the alarm to the ATF/Justice Department and were told to sell the guns, let them go, and shut up...the blood is on HOLDER'S hands...and possibly the hands of Rhambo and Oblame-o as well. it wouldn't be the first time Chicago thugs killed a cop to advance their 'agenda'
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Kingofthenet| 6.25.12 @ 11:51PM
Republicans are MENTAL CASES, can you imagine the uproar if President Obama just said, these small gun shops near the border are fueling the traffic of guns to Narco gangs,we are going to shut them down. They would be FOAMING at the mouth shouting 'Second Amendment' and that he has no proof, so he gets the proof, and now he is guilty of proving it.
Drunken Sailor| 6.26.12 @ 9:42AM
Hey dumbass, the ATF TOLD those stores to sell the guns to those individuals. You don't read much do you?
spike59| 6.26.12 @ 10:22AM
When it all shakes out, do not be surprised to find that F&F was a plan concocted by the WH and DOJ to 'create' a 'crisis' ("ohmigod, all these guns turning up back in the US, poor crackheads are being killed") that the Administration would not dare, with the MSM screeching in the background, let 'go to waste'...just the pretext the Administration was looking for in order to craft more restrictive gun laws
Brian Terry's death changed all that...now that the lights have been turned on, the cockroaches in the DOJ and WH are scurrying for cover
Watergate was bad; but John Mitchell did not have the blood of hundreds of dead Mexicans-and at least one American border cop-on his hands...
EclecticHorzman| 6.26.12 @ 10:37AM
There are three things that separate F&F from previous WH-related scandals.
First, it involved ATF in criminal conduct on our soil. Yes, Bush's earlier program did the same. The difference is that Bush's "controlled delivery" program intercepted weapons and brought about arrests.
Second, it involved us in police activity within the borders of another, sovereign nation. And unlike the Bush program (and, possibly, the initial version of this program launched in Feb 2009) this did not have the knowledge, consent or participation of the Mexican government.
And three, there is a body count. Two US border agents and about 300 Mexican nationals killed with the weapons we allowed to walk across the border in this misbegotten "operation".
The problem for the WH and Holder is that this all stems from something they gave great publicity to in February and April 2009: stimulus funding, speeches in Mexico. And we are then to believe that just 6 months later they were no longer paying attention to what the ATF was doing, so a single ATF agency could go rogue. It is an extraordinary assertion on its face, and impossible to believe.