Feature
Heaven Is Overrated
Earth is where the action is.
“HEAVEN SYMPOSIUM”
RET
Heaven: A Symposium
John Derbyshire
Heavens to Betsy!
Jonathan Aitken
The Road to Heaven
The problem with Peter Kreeft’s eloquent and moving book Heaven is not the author but the author’s faith. Kreeft follows a particular Christian thread that portrays heaven as the place of our ultimate longing and our highest reality. It’s what we should aspire to and yearn for, with a craving best captured in the book’s subtitle: The Heart’s Deepest Longing. Here’s Kreeft subordinating everything to the aspiration for heaven: “If life on earth is not a road to heaven then it is a treadmill, a merry-go-round minus the merry.”
These are curious words. Really? If we lived a full and glorious life on this earth, filled with the laughter of children and the love of a good woman, and suffused with kindness to strangers, it is still just a worthless treadmill? Statements such as these, founded as they are on an otherworldly theology in which heaven is everything and earth is virtually worthless, are what give atheists endless ammunition to lob against religion. Their principal compliant—that faith has focused on the heavens and abandoned the earth—becomes justified.
The Christian and Jewish views of heaven could not be more different. Christians believe heaven is just that: in the heavens, detached from earth, a “higher” reality, filled with the light of disembodied spirits. Jews, however, view heaven as the way this world will become when it is perfected in Messianic times. What is heaven? It is the earth in a faultless state, purged of hatred, hunger, and hostility.
Why do we naturally assume that the sky is more sacred than the earth, or that the life of a soul outside a body is higher than that of a soul within? The denigration of the physical can only lead, as a tributary, to the denigration of life as well. Kreeft goes down this unfortunate path: “The real present is something to be endured while you await the hoped-for future, where your heart is.”
Hence, one finds Kreeft quoting leading Christian thinkers who extol death, like C. S. Lewis, who refers to death as “a severe mercy.” You’re kidding, right? How does this approach differ from that of Dr. Kevorkian, who went to jail for performing “severe mercies”? Kreeft also quotes Heidegger: “My very being is a being toward death.” Whoa. That’s pretty macabre.
But Kreeft can give as well as he can quote, and he finds eloquent metaphors to add to the morbidity: “As soon as we are born we begin to die. This world is like a rocket ship; we are already launched into the beyond. Life is like an escalator, and there is no way off except at the end.” And he seems strangely enamored by the brilliance of death. “Death is the ‘golden key’ to my identity. Death is the door not only to life but also to selfhood.”
The problem with these sentiments is not their degradation of only life, but especially of a life lived nobly. Let’s imagine for a moment that God loses the battle with Satan, and the reward for a righteous life is that the honorable soul goes straight to hell. Would Kreeft and other Christian theologians of his persuasion tell us that such acts of righteousness on this earth are now all for naught because they do not result in heaven?
In Auschwitz the reward for being Jewish was the gas chamber and cremation furnace. Did that make the experience of living a Jewish life any less vibrant? Abraham Lincoln freed the slaves and saved the Union. His reward? A bullet to the neck. Martin Luther King ended Jim Crow and segregation. His reward was to be cut down by an assassin’s bullet on the balcony of a cheap motel. Luckily, noble effort is judged not by the reward but by the effort itself. Life is the same, and whether or not we go to heaven should have no bearing on the value of our lives.
What I am saying is that heaven is…er…overrated, especially by people of faith. Indeed, it seems counterintuitive to the religious experiment. Aren’t we supposed to serve God sincerely and not out of any desire for reward? And isn’t serving God supposed to be about doing the right thing with no thought of spiritual bliss or ecstatic enlightenment?
DON’T GET ME WRONG: As a religious Jew I believe in heaven. It’s just that I don’t much think about it. We Jews have been conditioned to think about this world, not the next. Our objective is not to use heaven as an escape from a world filled with pain, hunger, death, and disappointment; but rather to rid the world of those curses so that the earth itself becomes more heavenly.
The difference between the Jewish and Christian approaches to heaven comes up in nearly all my public debates with Christian missionaries, especially in light of my book Kosher Jesus, which seeks to introduce Jesus’ Jewishness into the Christian theological equation. My opponents will invariably ask me, toward the end of the debate, how I can expect to get into heaven if I don’t accept Christ as my personal savior, given the New Testament’s emphatic statements that only through Jesus can one be saved. My response is cynical but clear: Heaven? Who cares about heaven? I couldn’t give one damn where I am going. Even one moment of thinking about it is a moment taken away from my duties here on earth to clothe the naked, house the homeless, and comfort the bereaved. Charity and righteousness are not portals through which one ultimately caters to one’s own spiritual needs; and religion dare not become a ticket one purchases for a heavenly lottery.
But Kreeft, for all his beautiful writing, seems oblivious to the contradiction in touting religion as a means to escape modern narcissism—“Our deepest destiny is death, not just to the body but to the ego”—all while saying that if we seek God enough, we will receive the ultimate narcissistic reward, an eternity indulging the ecstatic heavenly pleasures of our own souls.
It’s time for religion to refocus its efforts on bettering our world, rather than getting us into heaven. We can only start by reversing the idea that life in this world is just a means to an end.
“Earth is only the castle’s drawbridge, the road to the great hall or the dungeon, upstairs or downstairs.” No, Professor Kreeft. Earth is the whole game, the players and the arena, the bees and the hive. Heaven is a mere afterthought, a place of spiritual indolence where souls wait around until they are resurrected back into a body and can do some good in the world.
IN JUDAISM there is a law that says when visiting a cemetery, we must tuck our tzitzit, fringes we wear to remind us of God’s commandments, in our pants so that they not mock the dead. The dead may be in heaven, but they wish they were performing God’s commandments here on earth.
It turns out that heaven, like retirement, is vastly overrated. I prefer what Rabbi Menachem Schneerson once said: That retirement should involve re-tiring, or putting on new tires and doing even more than before. Let us recommit to making heaven on earth.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (84) | Leave a comment
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Hardcard| 6.22.12 @ 7:23AM
Thanks Rabbi for your thoughts, you are wrong.
inquisitor1231| 6.22.12 @ 12:48PM
No, he's correct actually. Most of Christendom preaches they will be going to heaven to live eternal life, but they don't take into account the heaven where God is currently will be done away with in the times of the new heavens and the new earth (the old heavens and earth having passed away, correct?)
So I've not heard a cogent explanation how going to heaven to obtain one's reward works--especially before Judgment Day--what if one is enjoying one's reward, and this enjoyment gets reversed by the Supreme Court of the universe on Judgement Day, like so much modern-day unconstitutional benevolence…?
Occam's Tool| 6.22.12 @ 5:17PM
The point is that one should live to do good, and let G-d judge you. Leave the afterlife to him and be as good a Servant as you can.
Now, one may believe in the Divinity of Jesus (as a Jew, I don't), but it would seem to me that being filled with the Holy Spirit would be leading you in the same direction.
Or, as I like to say to annoy people, I leave the afterlife to Him, because I have complete trust and Faith in His goodness. I don't occupy a moment of my life thinking about it, because He takes care of it for me. My job is to save lives, and be the best husband, friend, and dad that I can be, and have absolute Trust in the Lord. (Note that I do not abbreviate it This Time because I mean it to be interpreted Literally in a spirit of religious Faith.)
Simon Templar| 6.22.12 @ 5:24PM
You are a good man, Occam. If there is an afterlife, I hope to see you there by the cool waters and in that Kingdom of the King of the Universe.
C Smith | 6.23.12 @ 1:19AM
Occam it doesn't work that way: "... be it known unto you... that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth... whom God raised from the dead... there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Act 4:10-12).
And yes, I do understand: http://theisraelofgod.blogspot.com/2007/02/12.html
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 4:43PM
Well, it's a bit confusing. Let me try to clarify. I am speaking of Jidaism only, of course.
(1) You have "heaven" and "the world to come". Maimonides' view is indeed similar to the Christian, that the ultimate reward is "heaven", a world of pure souls. But the more common view is that heaven is just a holding area, and that the ultimte reward is here in the future, where there will be a sort of heaven-on-earth, and fusion of the material and spritual - not something we can comprehend today. I suppose this is what he was referring to. (The fact that there is no official view of the nature of heaven says something about Judaism.)
(2) Indeed man was created for his position in the fitire world? But God created us here to keep us off welfare, so that we may earn our reward. And in many ways the actual earning and accomplishing is greater and more enjoyable to the soul than the reqard itself.
Appleby| 6.22.12 @ 7:25AM
You express, however incoherently, the best of both worlds -- life is the journey, Heaven is the destination. Millions of us trudging down the final hill toward the sunset, with the majority of our lives behind us, have lived the life you advocate and with the help of God have escaped the very worst because something always seems to come along just in time to prevent it. God has promised us what we need, not what we want -- and given us the opportunity to go after what we want on our own time. What's wrong with having a great time on the journey and looking forward to the journey's end? When my sisters and I were young, we used to go on many long car trips to visit family (my parents came from families of 12 and 8, respectively) and because we were Broke (Daddy said that meant right now we didn't have money, as opposed to Poor which meant we'd never have money) the journeys were long car rides over two or three days. We loved the journey, but the joy would be when we pulled into the well beloved front yard and the family came spilling out to welcome us. That's my idea of heaven. Earth is a foretaste of the feast to come.
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 5:07PM
I think you expresssed it correctly, from the Jewish view also.
The other confusion is I tried to explain above, albeit with typing errors.
KyMouse| 6.22.12 @ 7:32AM
In John 3, Jesus said to Jewish leader Nicodemus, “Are you a teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?...
“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness [Numbers 21:4-9], even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
“He who believes in Him [Jesus] is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God….”
If Rabbi Boteach continues to reject the salvation that Jesus bought for him on the cross with His blood, he won’t spend eternity in Heaven. I pray that he changes his mind.
Vera Schlamm, M.D., a survivor of the Bergen-Belsen death camp, wrote, "Do we need to protect ourselves against the 'disgrace' of becoming Jews who believe in Jesus? Should we keep a chain on the door of our hearts so we don't have to see if He is out there, if He is real? No, for if Jesus is the Messiah, it is no disgrace for a Jew to believe."
C Smith | 6.23.12 @ 1:38AM
Yes, and there is a coming day when every family of Israel that remains will come face to face with their Messiah:
"And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon. And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart; The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart; All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart" (Zec 12:10-14).
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 5:14PM
As usual with missionary texts, you are completely ignoring the context.
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 5:18PM
The serpent in the wilderness was eventually perverted into an idol, and so had to be derided. This is is what the Prophets tell us, in the book of Kings.
Further conclusions I will leave to the reader.
Jack in Wi| 6.22.12 @ 7:50AM
Millions of Jews have come to believe in Jesus and his mission on earth over the centuries. The tiny remnant of religious Jews, like Rabbbi Boteach, is even small among the world's Jews. Sadly many Jews have gone for the idea of heaven on earth and fallen for Communism, Socialism, and Zionism.
God gave our Jewish brothers and sisters a misioon for the world. The mission was to tell the world about The One True God, His Commandments, and to bring forth The Messiah of the World. That mission was completed 2000 years ago. God's mission for our Jewish friends now, is to follow Jesus and His teachings, and to love their neighbors as themselves. We all die Rabbi and heaven is the goal.
Occam's Tool| 6.22.12 @ 5:18PM
Jack, if I have to be in Heaven with you, you scum sucking Child rape supporting scumbag, I would rather be in Hell, you maggot Satanspawn.
However, I am sure one of the Glories of the Afterlife will be watching you burn.
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 4:48PM
Yes, being tortured, burnt alive with their children, despoiled, raped, and put through every imaginable evil in the name of Jesus certainly convinced many Jews that they were better off accepting Jesus. Karl Marx's father, for example.
What? Those people weren't "real" Christians? "By their fruits shall you know them." These people were the fruits of Jesus and his disciples.
Jack in Wi| 6.24.12 @ 6:06PM
The vast majority of Jews who converted did so volutarily. You can write all the fairy tales you want about a few people who were hurt in religious and ethnic strife over 2000 years. The Jews survived and carried on their faith and educated their children among Christians for 2000 years. The oldest continus Jewish community in the world is in Rome,over 2000 years. The Pope was the ruler of Rome for over a thousand of those years.
The worst pogrom in Czarist Russia killed about 45 people. We have had many worse race riots in this country. The whole Spanish Inquisition had about less then 4000 executed after long and usually fair for the time trials. Of course Jews, Muslims and pagans were not subject to the Spanish Inquitition. The Inquisition was a corrective religious court for Christians.
In 20 years 10's of millions of Christians were butchered inthe USSR by your ethnic soul brothers. I don't think all our sins against your people are anything more then a drop in the bucket compared to yours against us.
mzk| 6.26.12 @ 2:36AM
This is completely incorrect, historically.
Abu Nudnik| 6.26.12 @ 10:59AM
Communism is not Judaism. After Isaac Babel served loyally in the Red Army, he too "disappeared" along with all of Stalin's victims. National and International Socialism are anti-religious - all religions.
HootenannyEvangelical| 6.22.12 @ 8:01AM
Heaven?
Out here in Arkansas, heaven is where the fundamentalist evangelicals go to live with Jesus, to sit at his dinner table and eat collards and fatback for eternity.
Collards and fatback forever! And eaten in the presence of our precious Lord and Savior! I'm smacking my lips as I write this. Puhraise Gawd!
jppcanton| 6.22.12 @ 8:06AM
The Rabbi's thought perfectly illustrate why the vast majority of Jews are liberal social do-gooders. They tend to believe in and work for their concept of "social justice".
Alas, socialism/communism have Jewish roots deep in them (see Marx).
Brad Nelson| 6.22.12 @ 9:46PM
I think that’s a fair assessment, JPP. With all due respect, there’s something vacant or missing in the rabbi’s comments. It’s one thing to want to improve our condition. It’s quite another to want to make heaven on earth. As Francisdesales noted in the comments, “How is this different from secular liberalism???”
Whether heaven exists or not, it seems to me to be a denial of the divine to want to make heaven on earth or to put too much emphasis on material pursuits. If man takes on the role of redeemer and perfecter in this world, there is no point to god or anything Transcendent.
We may not truly understand why there are various domains. But this earthly one cannot be made perfect, and arguably 100 million lives were lost last century in an attempt to create Utopia. We must recognize our own folly in this regard or else what we do isn’t holy but spectacularly foolish.
I think true goodness and wisdom exists in balancing the needs of improving one’s character and one’s world while acknowledging that suffering is not only unavoidable, it is often redemptive.
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 4:55PM
Except this is NOT Judaism. See my comment below.
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 4:55PM
The only religion Marx practiced as an adult was Christinity, which he took seriously before going to atheism. His father converted because of anti-semitic laws. Indeed, the persecution suffered by Jews finally made many of them give up and look for heaven on Earth.
What you describe is not Judaism. If it were so, God would not have had to chose a people. Rather, we perfect the world by serving God - both by keeping the rituals and by helping our neighbor. The God - not we - perfects the world.
Ken (Old Texican)| 6.22.12 @ 8:26AM
I have shared as God has prospered me. I stumble along trying to follow Jesus.
I hope for the great "atta-boy"...well done my good and faithful servant.
Then I want to have a long visit with George Washington et. al.
HootenannyEvangelical| 6.22.12 @ 8:51AM
We Evangelicals believe Heaven is the whole point of worshipping. We do it all for the REWARD.
Why make this world any better when all we have to do is focus on ETERNAL LIFE WITH OUR LORD JESUS!
Yep, I'm gonna walk those streets of gold and eat all the fatback and collards my gut will hold.
We Evangelicals tend to be a little obese, but Jesus loves us more for all that fat, 'cause we always bless the fatback before we partake of it.
Let's see now, I've had breakfast, but there's some Blue Bunny chocolate ice cream in my freezer.
GLORY! Throw your arms up to Jesus if you love Blue Bunny ice cream!
Time for a Shout Out!
C. Vernon Crisler | 6.22.12 @ 10:22AM
Sadly, all too many modern Christians are like this, especially those who follow tv preachers and other clowns. However, it's not a good idea to mock the Christian faith just because some of its practitioners are subpar.
Ryan| 6.22.12 @ 11:56AM
Try something else.
Not Heaven - God is the whole point of worshipping.
francisdesales| 6.22.12 @ 8:58AM
"Let us recommit to making heaven on earth."
How is this any different than secular liberalism???
I fear this rabbi knows little about what Christianity teaches. From the lack of understanding of "entering into the house of the Lord" in the OT to the stereotypical "modern narcissism" of viewing life ONLY through the prism of heaven (ever hear of the Catholic Church...?), the article does a disservice to the very close links to biblical Judaism and Christianity.
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 4:58PM
I think you found the weakness in his argument. In Judaism, we perfect the world by serving God, whether through rituals or helping others. I suspect he emphasized the latter because the rituals mostly only apply to Jews.
On the other hand, Rbbi Boteach isn't exactly the world's most learned Rabbi.
HootenannyEvangelical| 6.22.12 @ 9:04AM
I don't suppose you Jews know much about the joys of fatback. Not "kosher" enough for you, I imagine.
Lord, when that taste of fatback hits my tongue, I speak in tongues--hallalalafachacamallacollardslafamaka! (I believe this is ancient Aramaic, the language of our Lord).
Mr. Boteach, come on down to Hagarville First Baptist Church to our revival, now in progress, and we will fill you with the Holy Ghost! We will also fill you with some of the best eatin' you've ever put in your mouth! JESUS! JESUS! JESUS! THANK YOU JESUS!
Come on down!
HootenannyEvangelical| 6.22.12 @ 9:06AM
That's Hagarville, Arkansas, Mr. Boteach.
If you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, your soul is damned.
I'm led by the Holy Spirit to speak the truth.
HootenannyEvangelical| 6.22.12 @ 9:11AM
Revival this week and plenty of good eatin'!
Y'all come on over to Hagarville, Arkansas, for some spirit-filled preachin' and fellowship with some of the jolliest evangelicals on earth. We're jolly because we know in our souls that we are "walkin' up the King's Highway."
But I'm not just walkin'-------I'm runnin'! Runnin' for Jesus!
Abu Nudnik| 6.26.12 @ 11:41AM
Is you what is called a troll, suh?
Bill84728| 6.22.12 @ 9:16AM
Heaven isn't overrated. Mortal life is underrated.
Seek| 6.22.12 @ 1:39PM
Precisely the Rabbi's point.
TinaB| 6.22.12 @ 9:42AM
As far as I know, unless a religious Jew wants to learn about our Christ, who we know as Messiah, he or she has very little knowledge of the New Testament. It isn't part of their Holy Books, like their Holy Books, the Pentateuch, is a well known (to us) part of our Holy Bible. Hence we know about all the OT prophecies which are fulfilled in Jesus Christ, and the Jews do not. They are still in darkness, we have seen the Light. Those who are Jews and have seen the Light, are hard at work enlightening others when and where they can. God bless them in this mission.
Rabbi Boteach is still in the dark about many things. Utopia will not be found in our life on Earth, but in our life with the Lord in Eternity. Be it Heaven on a New Earth, with perfect bodies which will not undergo decay, or spiritual bodies that can traverse time and space as we know it, Eternity with God, rather than the fires of Gehenna, is to be sought as the Pearl of Great Price. We must give anything on this Earth that keeps us from it.
C Smith | 6.23.12 @ 1:59AM
"We must give anything on this Earth that keeps us from it."
Here is a young mother who did just that:
From: Martyrs Mirror, T. J. van Braght, 1660
Through a certain good friend a very affectionate and consolatory testament of Janneken Munstdorp, the wife of Hans van Munstdorp, has been put into our hands, which she wrote in prison at Antwerp, after the offering up of her husband, when she was in daily expectation of death, to her dear little daughter-to whom she had given birth in prison, and who was now only about a month old-for a perpetual remembrance, farewell, and adieu from this evil world. It reads as follows....
http://to-my-children.blogspot...../lamb.html
C Smith | 6.23.12 @ 1:59AM
"We must give anything on this Earth that keeps us from it."
Here is a young mother who did just that:
From: Martyrs Mirror, T. J. van Braght, 1660
Through a certain good friend a very affectionate and consolatory testament of Janneken Munstdorp, the wife of Hans van Munstdorp, has been put into our hands, which she wrote in prison at Antwerp, after the offering up of her husband, when she was in daily expectation of death, to her dear little daughter-to whom she had given birth in prison, and who was now only about a month old-for a perpetual remembrance, farewell, and adieu from this evil world. It reads as follows....
http://to-my-children.blogspot...../lamb.html
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 5:21PM
I have read the New Testament, except for Revelations. I don't believe he filled the prophecies.
The second paragraph actually is the Jewish view.
Abu Nudnik| 6.26.12 @ 11:19AM
Judaism does not believe in the perfectibility of life. This "grossly materialistic" view of Judaism and Jews is inaccurate.
National and international socialism are the natural result of the breakdown of the Church/State system. Liberalism broke it down and liberalism (Classic Liberalism, not today's charade) now remains the sole force against the tyranny of both types of socialism. You will find many Jews on its side, including Milton Friedman (Capitalism and Freedom). Jews did not invent Communism and Marx was not a Jew. His father was a Christian convert and he himself was an atheist.
Abu Nudnik| 6.26.12 @ 11:34AM
The Jewish holy books consist of far more than the Pentateuch. The Pentateuch is the Greek translation of the 5 books of Moses: The Torah, which comprises only the first of three parts of Jewish holy books, The Prophets being the second and The Writings being the third.
I have read the New Testament. I am a Jew. I do not believe in the perfectibility of human life. I am no socialist. I do not believe in the separation of bodies and souls. I believe, as Klages wrote, that the soul is the meaning of the body and the body is the manifestation of the soul. We are forever trapped between the animal world of fact and God's world of truth. I believe in neither the Utopia of earth or heaven. It is a dream of vanity.
There is no chain in my heart. There is nothing but an open door for Christ. Yet he walks not in. A puzzlement. I'd love to convert. I believe, but only when Mahalia Jackson is singing. When she stops all the words are a mystery again. Strange. I've begun to think that Jesus is like a counterweight to Ha'Satan, The Adversary: The Accuser of man before the throne of God. If God judges (my real name by the way: Daniel), then man has a fool for a client if he defends himself against Ha'Satan. So I've come to believe Christ is the defender. That's as far as I've come.
It's really malarkey to say that Jews are unsophisticated rubes or materialistic close-heated cheapskates. Really it is. We're neither.
THKrupp| 6.22.12 @ 9:43AM
I have always found the differences between the Jewish outlook on life and the Chrisitan outlook to be very interesting. Christians always assume that the Jewish take on the afterlife is the same as our own. I have had conversations with Christians about this and they are always shocked and they say that I cant be right about this. I dont think that most Christians have a very good understanding of the Jewish faith.
Another thing I find interesting is the huge amount of support Christian Conservatives have for Israel. Its a very socialistic country. Of course there are other reasons to support Israel, but I get the idea that Christian Conservatives and the citizens of Israel would have very little in common. I was surprized when Michele Bachman was telling people that she worked on a kibbutz in Israel when she was young. Theres nothing wrong with it, but a kibbutz is a commune pure and simple. You dont get much more socialist than that.
C. Vernon Crisler | 6.22.12 @ 10:25AM
It's because a lot of Christians are dispensational premillennialists in their eschatology. In that system, the nation of Israel plays a decisive roll in redemptive history.
THKrupp| 6.22.12 @ 10:32AM
LOL I had to look up about half the words in your first sentence. Shows how much I know.
THKrupp| 6.22.12 @ 10:39AM
Now that I understand what dispensational premillennialists are and what eschatology is I would tend to agree with you. LOL thanks for giving me something to research.
C. Vernon Crisler | 6.22.12 @ 1:13PM
Yep, and one of these days I'm going to remember the difference between roll and role.
Occam's Tool| 6.22.12 @ 5:22PM
THKrupp---you are increasingly wrong. The largest number of Startups per Capita is to be found in Israel. Their economy is vibrant because they are increasingly Capitalistic.
Christian Conservatives believe that hard work and intensity will gain you rewards, and that G-d helps those who help themselves (I went to Texas Christian and spent 7 years in rural Alabama as a Psychiatrist---I've a very good idea of this). Israelis believe the same.
THKrupp| 6.24.12 @ 4:22PM
Oh yes I know that Israel has been very successful in the tech field and that they have a vibrant economy. Their Government is very similar to European systems. Their opinion of government involvement in the lives of private citizens is much different than the USA. Im not critical of them. They are obvioiusly successful. The point I was trying to make is that they have different view point than most Conservative Christians. Working hard is not exclusive to Christians or Jews.
mzk| 6.23.12 @ 5:04PM
I'm not sure what sort of Jews you mean. Judasim believes in heaven, the resurrection of the righteous, hell AND pugatory (we just use the same owrd for both). We believe that in the future the righteous will be rewarded and the sinners punished. There is, however, no consensus on the nature of the reward; some views are similar to the Christians, others are a sort of fusing of heaven and earth.
However, serving God for reward is a low level of service. The highest is to serve out of love.
THKrupp| 6.24.12 @ 4:33PM
Its the particulars where things become very different. My understanding is that Shoel is where the evil and the righteous go after death. It is not where God dwells...correct me if I am wrong please.
Abu Nudnik| 6.26.12 @ 11:36AM
Israel has long ceased to be socialistic. It was at one point but the Kibbutz gave way to the Moshav after the hard workers got tired of supporting the layabouts.
Kingofthenet| 6.22.12 @ 10:12AM
I will say this moderate Jews are the MOST practical people I know.As an Atheist I can hardly muster an attack on such a thoughtful and kind view of life here on Earth.Even when Christopher Hitchens used to debate theological types, I always thought the Jewish ones gave him the hardest time. They would talk about how religion was so helpful to the mental well being of people and comforted them, something Christopher could hardly disagree with.Now IF they could just show that practicality and kindness to the Palestinians.
Appleby| 6.22.12 @ 3:24PM
Believe me, they do. If they didn't, there would be no "Palestinians" left -- the Israelis would have wiped them out in 1967.
Occam's Tool| 6.22.12 @ 5:24PM
Hard to do that when they are beheading your kids, and killing the doctors and nurses who heal them up when the bombs go off prematurely, King.
How would you treat a homicidal maniac who glories and sings songs of praise to people whobehead 3 month old girls?
C Smith | 6.23.12 @ 3:12AM
“… and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink” (Proverbs 25:21). When Palestinians recently fled from Gaza into the desert, IDF soldiers reportedly opened their tanks and tossed them water bottles.
“Thou shalt love him as thyself” is the motto Israeli doctors follow without partiality as they treat both the Palestinian terrorist and his victims. However, some have understandable qualms: "I don't mind servicing wounded Palestinian patients because that's what we were taught to do, but it does bother me when the television news reports detail how many Jews were killed in an attack and the Palestinian patients break into cheers."
http://yisraelmyglory.blogspot.....alism.html
Occam's Tool| 6.22.12 @ 5:35PM
King, try being less of an asshole. Obviously, you have never been assaulted, which accounts for you idiotic view of life.
The Palis get College education and health care from the people whose babies they murder and then pass out candy to their children celebrating the murder. Obviously, you support the beheadings of 3 month olds.
Kingofthenet| 6.23.12 @ 11:59PM
Occam, Try to be LESS of an Asshole, when a good majority of your population STEALS land in a place they aren't from, and is from Europe and Asia for Generations....
C. Vernon Crisler | 6.22.12 @ 10:19AM
The Christianity that the Rabbi has encountered appears to be the "we don't polish brass on a sinking ship" view. So, naturally he thinks that Christianity is all about pie-in-the sky, whereas Judaism is all about the earth.
But other Christians reject an exclusively other-wordly eschatology. Some perhaps go to the opposite extreme of trying to establish the kingdom of God on earth, but during the 19th century, there was a lot of ameliorative thinking among Christians, as well as support for voluntary institutions and charities.
This view was lost after WW1 and after the rise of Progressivism, which transferred more and more ameliorative work to government. I've been reading Marvin Olasky's *The Tragedy of American Compassion* which is an excellent reminder of just how this-worldy the Christian faith is at its heart.
Txman| 6.22.12 @ 11:28AM
I like Rabbi Boteach as a person......but I must conclude he is out in left field on his description of the 'Christian idea of heaven' at least from what I get from reading the OT and NT . He seems to confuse 'jihadism' and the Bible at times as well. We have had governments murder how many hundreds of millions of their own people in the name of improving the species in the past century? More than all the war dead combined. Israel....the one voice of sanity in the Middle East with it's back still to the wall? We aren't doing so hot in our quest to make heaven on earth...far from it on our own.
“As long as the vision of heaven is always changing, the vision of earth will be exactly the same. No ideal will remain long enough to be realized, or even partly realized. The modern young man will never change his environment; for he will always change his mind.”
― G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy
“The wise man will follow a star, low and large and fierce in the heavens, but the nearer he comes to it the smaller and smaller it will grow,
till he finds it the humble lantern over some little inn or stable. Not till we know the high things shall we know how lovely they are.”
― G.K. Chesterton, William Blake
“A mystic is a man who separates heaven and earth even if he enjoys them both.”
― G.K. Chesterton, William Blake
C. Vernon Crisler | 6.22.12 @ 11:42AM
It's hard to go wrong with a Chesterton quotation.
cicero| 6.22.12 @ 11:54AM
Very interesting stuff. It appears to me that the Gift of the Jews was the Law. An analysis on the ten commandments gives a roadmap to a happy, human life. Taken one by one, they set the rules of life necessary to follow if you want to be a happy, fulfilled human being, here.
The Gift of Christianity is built on the Gift of the Jews. As Christ said, he came to fulfill the law, not to destroy it. He said that we must love God and love our neighbors. He also gave us the promise of heaven, which is not of this world.
Without the promise of an aterlife, we fall prey to living for this world only, which easily devolves into secularism, and false charity. This would be a great discussion over a number of says, and some good wine.
Peace be to you all, brothers and sisters.
TinaB| 6.22.12 @ 2:12PM
Nicely said, Cicero.
Ryan| 6.22.12 @ 11:58AM
There IS an interesting point the Rabbi makes that a lot of Christians miss.
It's the "new heavens and the new earth" point made in Revelation.
Sometimes we are a bit too focused to where we go after we die as opposed to the eternal perspective where all things are made new, and we are able to be who we are supposed to be - in the here and now, without sin.
Remember, Adam was in the garden to work and live BEFORE the fall.
inquisitor1231| 6.22.12 @ 1:02PM
Exactly! It all falls into place if the place of residence is the new earth--then Messiah will be living among His people once again in the new Jerusalem, proving His name is Emanuel; the meek shall inherit the [new] earth; He will once again come down to inhabit His holy mountain as He did when Israel and the mixed multitude traveling with them were one assembly in the wilderness; and so on. So the teaching that one is to look forward to an eternal habitation above in the heavens, where God is, is simply not supported by the sum total of evidence, especially in light of the old heavens (pl.) including the one where God is currently, being done away with, along with this earth. So I've yet to hear how this business of "going to heaven to an eternal reward" works.
Doesn't mean we should reflexively sign up for benevolent community organizing, however, as the Rabbi seems to suggest...
TinaB| 6.22.12 @ 2:13PM
Yes, yes, yes. And God said, "it is good."
TinaB| 6.22.12 @ 2:16PM
That response was to Ryan, regarding the state of creation, before the Fall of Adam.
David T| 6.23.12 @ 6:45PM
Yes, this is the "life after life after death" that Rev. N.T. Wright talks about. Heaven as traditionally viewed is an interim state. The life we were meant for, the Edenic life (only better), begins at the Great Resurrection on the Last Day.
John II| 6.22.12 @ 12:14PM
I'm not sure how to respond to any of this except to point out that Rabbi Boteach seems to regard Christianity generally as no more than Calvinism. And it does seem to me that Peter Kreeft, a professed Catholic convert, intermittently shows his own Calvinist roots with a certain sentimentalist strain in his writing.
Catholic Christian theology on the final things tends to be much less "either/or" and far more "both/and" in its distinctions. The hope articulated is of a new heaven AND a new earth. As St. Paul says in Romans (8:19-23), material creation (the physical cosmos) will be "set free from its bondage to decay" (okay--entropy will be reversed, if you prefer scientific jargon over poetry) and the bodies of the just will be restored to their souls (or interior selves, if you will).
In their anticipation of a new earth, Catholic Christians are called to participate in the development of this fallen world--albeit with the caveat that the restoration of the terrestial paradise is beyond human power to achieve: we are called to foreshadow the age to come, not to play God.
Body and soul, heaven and earth, intimate involvement and spiritual detachment . . . "both/and," get it?
And now back to "Between Two Worlds" (1944), in which the portly and usually sinister Sydney Greenstreet plays an angel. The performances are absorbing, and the theology's not too shabby either.
C. Vernon Crisler | 6.22.12 @ 1:16PM
Wow, that's the first time I've heard Calvinists described as sentimentalists.
Sir Mark| 6.22.12 @ 1:56PM
Rabbi,
God bless you, but if you are going to argue against the Christian concept of heaven, it might be nice if you actually understood our arguments. You are arguing against our enemies' characterizations of us. Therefore, you didn't even land a glancing blow.
It is slander to even hint that Christians do not work to make this world a better place. I will leave it to others to list all the ways Christianity has worked to better the world. I don't have the time.
sharkey| 6.22.12 @ 2:22PM
It is probably true that some people experience a somewhat fulfilling life here on earth without God. But I would say it is an anomaly that is out of the ordinary. Humans have a "God shaped vacuum" in their heart, placed there by God. Until that vacuum is filled there tends to be an emptiness and a void in people's lives, who are constantly trying to fill the void with drugs, alcohol, sex and other counterfeit measures which are contrary to the true fulfillment which can only be attained through reconciliation and a personal relationship with God. The same God who fills the void with the Holy Spirit and the God shaped vacuum is finally filled and satisfied.
I would assume the Rabbi agrees that the God of the Bible (which includes the Old Testament writings) created Heaven and Earth and all that is therein. I would also assume the Rabbi believes the prophecies of the Old Testament such as Isaiah 9:6, Jeremiah 23:5 etc., which tells of a coming messiah who would show the way of salvation and heaven. Whether a person has a somewhat fulfilling life here on earth (with or without God) is not the point. The point the author is trying to make I think is that if a person doesn't have a ticket to heaven (provided by Yeshua - which Christians believe is Jesus Christ) then life would have relatively little meaning here on earth by comparison. Heaven is real and glorious and eternal. On the other hand, a fulfilled life here on earth is temporary and pales by comparison.
Who Knows?| 6.22.12 @ 2:28PM
What is, is. You, and the world, are what they are, in every instant of existence.
What is all this other-worldly concern with heaven or hell? While you are here, every Now is IT!
“You” will never “gain” heaven or “fall into” hell.
There is only the One Suchness, than which there is no other, better known as the Absolute. And, there does appear to be the Phenomenal reality, full of many me’s and not-me’s, all the way to the edge of the physical universe.
It behooves wonderers to expand their horizons, and seriously study the Eastern religions, but as can be realized when reading the comments on this site, there are few people who still are able to be in a mood to question their own religious authorities.
“A necessary implication of the non-difference between God and man is that both of them have to be considered as aspects of a more basic being---the Absolute; they are appearances and not ultimate. God is a personal manifestation, the individualization, of the Absolute. As this is a free phenomenalisation, there is no conceivable limit to the number, form and occasion of these manifestations. All beings have to be considered as God; Buddha (Gautama) is not the only instance of man attaining perfection. Absolutism translated in terms of religion can only be a pantheism. It is necessarily committed to the unity of all beings, the identity of God and man and the transcendence of the Absolute.”
Who Knows?| 6.22.12 @ 2:28PM
From “The Central Philosophy of Buddhism”, T.R.V. Murti, 1955, page 226.
Simon Templar| 6.22.12 @ 2:29PM
Rabbi,
With all due respect, what exactly is your point?
Your understanding of Christian theology on these matters is rather weak and inaccurate to begin with and your overall point about heaven being overrated a bit murky.
Given the comments here and much of the misunderstanding that seem to exist in both religious communities, Jews and Christians, about each others faiths, it is no wonder that many people come up with the strangest responses and statements about each other and religious belief in general.
Of course generalizations about either can be made but not without great risk and inaccuracy as there are so many sects of both the Jewish and Christian faith that it is almost impossible to lump either into one pile of thought on these matters.
When someone actually studies the actual religious text and the essential fundamental beliefs of both one finds very little difference in belief on these matters despite the fact that many sects emphasize one aspect over another for different reasons.
Good luck with your campaign and best wishes.
Truth to Power| 6.22.12 @ 7:53PM
I find it ironic that Boteach lectures any Christian with regard to what is done on Earth. Western Civilization is defined by Christianity and its accomplishments in the betterment of human life dwarf anything before. As we become post Christian I don't see us headed for better times. A reading of the Old Testament does not leave one with the sense that Jewish folks are special with respect to morality. Any serious reading of the text should leave one humble. After the destruction of the Jewish nation Jewish people have lived in various minority communities and in general have hostility toward the majority community. This includes the United States. I suppose this also is part of human nature but it is very foolish. This explains their prevalence within the anti-religious left and their prevalence in organizations that attack Christianity using our legal system. It also explains why they will be almost deaf to the antisemitism of the Black community and hate pro-Israel Christians. Boteach illustrates this hostile attitude well and he sits in the center of this tribal outlook. I think the world of Michael Medved or for that matter Occam's Tool but I also sense the hatred of Christians by most Jewish people. It is just a fact of life. The purpose of Boteach's article was only to take unfair shots at Christians. He does this all the time. I don't think it will work out well for him but it is a free country yet.
Mistral| 6.23.12 @ 7:15AM
Very apt perspectives - Boteach is charachteristically jewish in his thinly veiled contempt for Christian norms and values. His imagination runs away with him to into false scenarios which is completely invalid for illustrating his point. Of course, Boteach rejects The Christ like any good Jew. However, in attempting to understand Heaven together with our roles here on earth, he is at a major disadvantage. As Our Blessed Lord initmated, we should not prefer our lives here to that which He offers those who love and obey Him. Earthly goods and services are only a very pale imitation of life beyond. The basic problem for those who reject our Messianic age is that they only have the material world for comfort. One has to feel sorry for the writer of this article as he has completely missed the point altogether. We can enjoy and fulfill life here but not at the expense of inheriting the reward of Heaven.
Kingofthenet| 6.24.12 @ 12:03AM
The Roman Empire WAS the Roman Empire LONG before it became the "Holy Roman Empire' i.e. see the killing of so called Christ.
Truth to Power| 6.24.12 @ 10:12AM
The 20th century murder and mayhem by atheists was also part of Western Civilization. All the branches of the tree aren't equal. In fact many deserve to be pruned right off. You are perched on one right now that will soon be gone.
Do you really believe that the Roman Empire turned into the Holy Roman Empire? It doesn't surprise me.
Ken (Old Texican)| 6.23.12 @ 11:20AM
I suppose.....
That you folks have all forgotten.....GRACE.
See, my eternal life began August 13,1957 when I commited myself to follow Jesus. GRACE intervened at that point, and I live a little heaven every single day.
It sometimes makes me thirsty, (smile), but I simply keep walking looking forward to my passing...or my rapture.
I have written and spoken these words a zillion times at the judgement bar of GOD: "Ken, you have been such a sorry excuse of my human creation! What am I to do with you?"
And just about the time I turn away in shame...Jesus Christ speaks up. "Father, he is one of mine. He has done a lot of stupid stuff...but never evil stuff, and he has introduced a lot of people to me."
Then I picture Jesus turning to me to say something like: "Well, for a stupid idiot you have been a faithful servant. Enter the gates. There have been a lot of folks waiting to welcome you...and by the way, grab your work-boots and hard hat as you go through the gates. We are still busy creating the universe you know."
(Just a story, but it pretty much encompasses my understanding of things beyond me.)
justinquiring| 6.24.12 @ 10:33PM
You just explained why Jews are drawn to utopia and statism.
Peter| 6.25.12 @ 9:21AM
This article explains perfectly why Jews have always been apart of revolutionary movements, and why they embrace the State...Hey Spectator Editors when will you print an article that attacks Jewish Theology????...Didn't think so....
Peter| 6.25.12 @ 11:07AM
When ever man had tried to create heaven on earth his has with exception created Hell....
Peter| 6.25.12 @ 12:10PM
ooops that is without exception
BobRN| 6.26.12 @ 12:59AM
I will only say that I'm very glad that I share Peter Kreeft's Catholic faith than either Rabbi Boteach's faith or his misunderstanding of the Catholic faith.