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The Nation's Pulse
Give Us That Old Time Religion
Remembering a time when churches cared enough to safeguard faith and morals.
Whether one is God-fearing or not, conservatives should be heartened by a recent story in the Wall Street Journal headlined “Traditional Catholicism Is Winning.” Just when it seemed that decades of sex abuse scandals, creeping secularism, and the popularity of private forms of spirituality, charismatic sects, and megachurches had knocked traditional religion down for the count, here is news of a revival of sorts.
The authors, Anne Hendershott and Christopher White, joyfully report that there were 467 new priestly ordinations in the U.S. last year, up from 442 a decade ago. Boston’s seminary, I am told, had to turn away applicants. And, for the first time in memory, a new seminary is opening in the U.S. (in North Carolina). Meanwhile the number of American Catholics has climbed to 77.7 million, up from 50 million in 1980. All this would seem to suggest that traditional religion’s obituary was penned somewhat prematurely.
Why this sudden and surprising return to orthodoxy? My guess is many of these young seminarians have been left cold by the decadence, empty materialism, and skewed values that abound in contemporary society. Perhaps they seek something more meaningful than a desk job, a commute, and a McMansion in the suburbs.
Behind this small attitudinal shift is the figure of Pope Benedict XVI, a strong proponent of tradition in all its forms. Some Rome watchers see great significance in the pope’s recent lifting of excommunication from four bishops of the Society of St. Pius X. These bishops reject Vatican II and its so-called reforms that were supposed to help the Church “embrace modernity.” (Modernity, phbltt! Who needs it? What has modernity done for anybody?) Naturally, those liberals who demand the Church reflect “contemporary values” despise this pontiff, while he is greatly admired by those who think the Church should not sell out to every new ideological fad.
No doubt, traditional religion’s ongoing renaissance is a byproduct too of modern man’s continuous search for a soul. The Searchers among us are finding that we prefer a straight, well-defined footpath to a wandering, vague, overgrown trail. We don’t necessarily want to find our “own way.” We want signposts with large print — especially at my age. We do not relish getting lost or wandering off the side of a cliff. Rather than a faith that bends to the whims of every malcontent, we want a demanding, timeless religion that isn’t constantly checking the direction of the wind. Indeed, for every Anna Quindlen who bolts the Church because of its hardheadedness on contraception and other “women’s issues,” there is an Ann Widdecombe who converts for the same reasons. These newcomers “are attracted to the philosophy, the art, the literature and the theology that make Catholicism countercultural,” write Hendershott and White. “They are drawn to the beauty of the liturgy and the church’s commitment to the dignity of the individual.”
Countercultural? The Catholic Church? I suppose standing up for The Permanent Things does tend to put one a bit outside the mainstream.
THESE FINDINGS reaffirm what many conservative thinkers have long said about the need for unambiguous messages from Rome and strong, decisive bishops who maybe do not crush all dissent with a mailed fist, but who are nonetheless not shy about excommunicating dissidents, like pro-choice Catholic groups. It is in these traditionalist dioceses that ordinations and vocations are up, while in dioceses run by wishy-washy, liberal bishops seminarians are few and the pews empty.
Perhaps it has finally begun to sink in how important traditional religion is to community and civic life now that these too are on the ropes, and that rootless Americans crave “traditional denominational, neighborhood, family-centered churches” and not “megachurches, consisting of thousands of people brought together by a single charismatic preacher, which do not survive the death of the preacher; and small, transient, nondenominational churches, some professing to be ‘spiritual’ rather than religious, which are unstable in doctrine as in membership,” to quote from a recent essay by the conservative historian Gertrude Himmelfarb.
In my youth Catholics’ morals were of utmost concern to the clergy. Catholics were informed regularly which movies and books had been banned by the Church. For instance, my brothers and I knew we were forbidden to see Monty Python’s Life of Brian. We saw it anyway, but it was nice to know someone was looking out for our immortal souls. It was comforting to know someone still took seriously the importance of safeguarding our faith and morals. Perhaps that is what is lacking in these postmodern times. Faith leaders who care enough to compile an Index Librorum Prohibitorum. Perhaps it is not the pew-sitters, but the hierarchy who do not care enough.
About the Author
Christopher Orlet writes from St. Louis.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (127) | Leave a comment
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Kenny| 4.26.12 @ 6:41AM
The proof is in the pudding.
I'll believe there's a revival of Catholicism when, for example, I finally hear a homily like I use to many years ago on sexual immorality (and yes, that includes homosexuality) and sin & Hell.
DTOM!| 4.26.12 @ 7:45AM
I hear them quite regularly. With frequent reference to the Bible as the authority backing them up.
Ooops, I'm in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church.
The Catholics seem to be realizing that if you tell people that you believe in something, you actually gotta believe in it...Good luck to them.
"Whenever two or more of you gather in My name..." Go Catholics! Go!
Jacob| 4.27.12 @ 4:59PM
Imagine if you were a Catholic who went to a traditional parish. Then you could be proud of your conservatism and the fact that you were administered REAL sacraments.
Why are Lutherans so full of hate for Catholics? You don't think we could make you feel bad about yourselves and your tiny dwindling churches if we wanted? You do realize there are going on two billion of us and that the Pope is richer than everyone but the President of the United States?
Angela| 4.27.12 @ 11:25PM
I was enjoying this till your comment.....sigh....I thought he was being positive....The Mo Synod has been able to stand its ground better than most. (and I am not Lutheran so don't go there) Do you really measure success by numbers and wealth? That makes me sad. How vane and inane.
Fairbanks99| 4.26.12 @ 10:18AM
Our priest (Our Lady Star of the Sea, Bremerton, WA) gave just such a homily recently. He received enthusiastic applause. A few people left the church after that. This parish and our Archbishop, Peter Sartain are among those returning the Church to traditional Christian and Catholic teachings. I am privileged to be able to attend.
Vern Crisler| 4.26.12 @ 3:01PM
Guess what, despite all of this talk of a revival of Catholicism (and Protestant churches), Obama was still voted into office.
When Catholics (and Protestants) start voting in ways that are consistent with Christianity, then maybe today's Catholicism and Protestantism will be something to write home about.
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 5:59PM
What about the separation of church and state?
SeymourGlass| 4.26.12 @ 6:11PM
Are you serious? You're suggesting people can't VOTE based on thier religious beliefs?
Do you include (athiest) Socialists in this?
Or, are you just a troll?
Vern Crisler| 4.26.12 @ 6:23PM
Die, 1st Amendment is a restriction on the FEDERAL government, not on voters.
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 7:49PM
My question was in reference to what I've heard from many neoconservatives professing their opinion that our country's government should be a Christian one, in line with the bible. I for one believe strongly in the separation of church and state. If someone is very religious and they want to vote that way, more power to them. But if any elected official wants to legislate based on their fundamentalist religious beliefs, then that is a clear violation of the separation of church and state. And Seymour, no, I am decidedly not a troll. I am also not a conservative. I am at this site because I am interested in what the other side of the political spectrum has to say. Yes, I disagree with most of what I have read here, comments included, but so what? It's a free country (at least for now), so we can all agree to disagree. I just find it strange that many claim that those on the left always cry foul when disagreed with, but I have to say I have found the same reaction from quite a few neocons.
Anyhow, I do find this site and many of the opinions interesting on many levels. Cheers~
skip| 4.26.12 @ 9:55PM
What about one of the three authors of the Federalist Papers, and the first Chief Justice?
"Providence has given our people the choice of their rulers, and it is the duty, as well as the privilege and interest, of a Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers"
- John Jay
albert constantine jr.| 4.26.12 @ 11:21PM
"But if any elected official wants to legislate based on their fundamentalist religious beliefs, then that is a clear violation of the separation of church and state."
At the risk of provoking a prolonged discussion, would you support an elected official legislating based on his secular religious beliefs?
Ryan| 4.27.12 @ 8:35AM
You've fallen for the trap, I think, that somehow we can separate our ideas and beliefs away from our religion - that it's somehow separate.
If someone votes without basing that vote on their religious beliefs - which ALWAYS purport to answer the core questions of life and morality - then they do not adhere to whatever religion they state they belong to.
Appleby| 4.26.12 @ 7:09AM
The Catholic Church is growing here in Kanukistan because of the implosion of the Anglican/Episcopal church into a homosexual worshipping frenzy. Entire congregations are swimming the Tiber en masse, just to get away from the constant drumbeat of homosexuality 24/7. Not to mention the rock bands.
Our church is not perfect; we have one overworked priest who has to bring in brother priests from outlying areas during times when confession spikes, and he has never learned how to preach. However, we do have a very good Bishop who tours the churches and keeps an eye on things, and of course we have a Cardinal (Thomas Collins) who draws a massive crowd at the Cathedral Church downtown and the choir school is scored tops in academics as well as in musical training.
Better still the flood of the newly baptized is heartening, and although many of us choose not to attend the "family service" due to the continuing unwillingness of parents to govern their children accordingly, it is clear the church is growing from the ground up.
I have joined the Catholic Church because in the face of all the screaming kids who think they GottaRight to destroy everything in their path, the Catholic Church is turning the ship in the direction of Home.
Harry the Horrible| 4.26.12 @ 9:04AM
It happens in the States, too.
My dad's Episcopal Church went off the deep end, and 80% of the congregation left the church for a new one, an Anglican/African Church which didn't put up with such shenanigans.
Now they're left with a big, empty church and a big mortgage and no one to tithe.
Abandoning the Word of God has consequences.
Occam's Tool| 4.26.12 @ 1:35PM
The local Methodists in my small Minnesota town are going to hold an Israel bashing, Palestinian supporting "Peace and Justice" meeting this week.
The Liberal Churches are dying because their pastors are damned stupid fools. Myself, I prefer to live in a town with plenty of evangelical churches. Much more Jew friendly, and I KNOW this.
Harry the Horrible| 4.26.12 @ 2:27PM
That is a pity.
I'm a Methodist, but if our Pastor tried that, he'd be awfully lonely in that church. There is plenty of room at the Baptists...
The Methodist leadership is pretty wacky, I'm afraid, but we mostly ignore them.
Fairbanks99| 4.26.12 @ 10:35AM
I was raised an Evangelical Protestant, but am now on the path to Rome myself. I do not care for what Ann Barnhardt calls the "superfun rockband" church that many Protestant Churches have become. The Christian & Missionary Alliance church that I had been attending actually got rid of their hymnals.
Ann Barhardt's (herself a Catholic convert) writings about the Church Christ founded got me interested, and I began attending Mass and praying regulary to God to make me obedient to Him and put my feet on the path he wants them to be on. So far, that path leads to Rome, and as I learn more about Catholic teaching, especially about the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, I am more and more at home there. Since I began this journey I have felt a sense of peace like never before and the always simmering anger in my heart has melted away.
Vern Crisler| 4.26.12 @ 3:04PM
If you're attending Mass, you're not just "on your way" to Rome; you've already swum the Tiber.
Fairbanks99| 4.26.12 @ 7:05PM
As I understand it, until I attend RCIA - as a candidate -and am confirmed and thus eligible for the Eucharist, I am not fully across the Tiber. RCIA in our parish starts in September.
Doctor Right| 4.26.12 @ 3:07PM
So you're against the "superfun rockband" church, but you like...
1. Transubstantiation: NOT scripturally justified
2. Priests as intercessors: NOT scripturally justified
3. Praying to Mary: NOT scripturally justified
4. Mary as an eternal virgin (despite giving birth to several children)
5. Praying to Saints: NOT scripturally justified
6. Papal succession (NOT scripturally justified)
7. Etc, etc, etc...
I could go on, but those are pretty BIG things.
As someone who walked away from 32 years of Catholicism once I was exposed to scripture, I can honestly say...
I'd take the "superfun rockband" church over the one that teaches serious error.
SeymourGlass| 4.26.12 @ 4:28PM
So say you and millions, Doc. I and many other millions say otherwise. We'll all know in the end.
Daniel| 4.26.12 @ 5:13PM
But where in Scripture does it say that everything must be based on Scripture?
SeymourGlass| 4.26.12 @ 5:13PM
No place I've come across. But, I'll let Doc answer that one for you.
Vern Crisler| 4.26.12 @ 6:23PM
To the word and to the testimony.....
Doctor Right| 4.26.12 @ 9:21PM
"But where in Scripture does it say that everything must be based on Scripture?"
That's utterly illogical and totally devoid of common sense.
If you claim to be a Christian, then your faith MUST be scripturally based. It's not a choice.
Nick| 4.27.12 @ 12:10AM
Doctor Right,
The only question I would have is how does one know which ancient books were inspired by the Holy Spirit, and which ones were not?
Why does the Gospel of Peter not belong in the Bible, but, the Gospel of John does? And, who made these decisions?
Doctor Right| 4.27.12 @ 9:01AM
The Gospel of Peter doesn't belong in the Bible because it's claims are utterly inconsistent with the rest of the NT.
If you're trying to claim Catholic dominion over the Bible's incorporation, that's not a valid claim.
Nick| 4.27.12 @ 9:12PM
Doctor Right,
"If you're trying to claim Catholic dominion over the Bible's incorporation, that's not a valid claim."
No, I'm not interested in a debate, honest. I'm genuinely curios as to how you determined which ancient books were inspired, and which were not. I only bring it up because I have recently been reading some articles on how the Canon of Scripture came to be.
I am still learning about more and more about them, I had no idea there were so many apocryphal writings. Have you read them all? And, how did you compare them to the New Testament? To what do you compare the New Testament, to determine that all the books contained therein were inspired?
God Bless!
Doctor Right| 4.26.12 @ 9:22PM
It's not about what you say or think. It's about the Truth.
Jack in Wi.| 4.26.12 @ 7:36PM
This is My body and this is My blood is not in the Bible Doc? Could anything be more clearer? You shall eat of My flesh and drink of My blood is not in the Bible? Many of his followers left after that, because they could not believe. Everything you raise questions about is Biblicly explained. It is all justified in the Catholic Catechism, which has full Biblical citations, and other justifications. Of course the Bible comes from the Catholic Church. Christ told his Apostles to go and spread the Good News to the world. The Bible is just one of the many tools that the Church has used to do that. The original Cannon of the bible was only finalized in the 4th century. It was used to at Catholic services long before Luther ever started his revolt. 35000, squabbbling Protestant sects all fighting about the meaning of the Bible which comes from the Catholic Church.
chris a.| 4.27.12 @ 2:02AM
WELL SAID !! i came back to the Catholic Church for the very same reasons.
kat| 4.26.12 @ 7:48AM
Good analysis Chris. My husband and I swam the Tiber 12 years ago to escape the moral insanity of the Episcopal Church and find safe harbor in the unwavering truths found in the Catholic Catechism. Since then we have become Traditional Latin Mass aficionados, homeschooling, parents of many. We see the large number of vocations within the TLM community and the lack of vocations in our very liberal diocese (3 seminarians in an entire state?). The Catholic Church might have to get smaller, but it likely will be more orthodox and more holy.
Richard M| 4.26.12 @ 1:11PM
I'll second the promotion for Latin Mass communities.
And in St. Louis, Mr. Orlet has the benefit of one of the very best ones in North America, if he has not already: St. Francis de Sales Oratory, run by the Institute of Christ the King. They certainly don't lack for lots of large young families, at any rate. Or vocations.
Dad od Six| 4.26.12 @ 7:50AM
B16's greater allowance of the Extraordinary Form, priests giving more access to the Sacrament of Reconciliation, and the large families of the JPII generation will continue to revitilize the American RC Church.
Hey Sues| 4.26.12 @ 8:01AM
Tell me, what exactly IS a soul?
Stormzeye| 4.26.12 @ 8:33AM
The best part of you. It is where the Holy Spirit resides...if you invite It in and through God's grace It enters.
DTOM!| 4.26.12 @ 10:17AM
And, don't forget, you have one - whether you want it or not...
c matt| 4.26.12 @ 1:03PM
in latin: anime; that which animates us, and all living things (animate vs. inanimate objects). Thus there are vegetative souls (plants); souls ruled by appetite or passions (animals) and rational souls (those ordered toward and ruled by reason, "man" theoretically).
JP| 4.26.12 @ 8:22AM
I hate to be the pessimist, but numbers do not lie. The social/moral make-up of Catholics now differs little from the culture at large, let alone differing from Protestants. If one subtracts Hispanics, Catholics by and large produce no more children than non-Catholics (about 1.7 children per female). And while the divorce rate amongst Catholics has dropped in recent years, the number of Catholics who co-habitate has sky-rocketed (about the same trends as non-Catholics). The use of artificial contraception (which, in the Church is still considered a Grave Sin) by Catholics is still widespread. Abortion is another scourge that Catholics use in about the same proportion as the rest of the population. I've come to the conclusion that most Catholic spouses agree with Belinda Gates (Bill Gate's Catholic wife) in that they do not believe that artificial contraception is a Mortal Sin.
The JPII Generation has been touted as "revolutionary". Yet, that generation of Catholics have been around for 30 years now. And while, I don't doubt some extraordinary Catholics who've converted during that period, I see very little change within the Catholic Church here in the US.
I'm not saying that things are not improving. But, the changes we would like to see are occuring at a very, very slow pace. The number of more orthodox priests and religious who've been ordained in recent decades is very good news.
MikeBee| 4.26.12 @ 9:39AM
JP,
The change is not occurring here in the U.S. so much yet, because of the presence of so many extremely liberal bishops. These guys actively try to squelch any semblance of a traditional church. And, they seem to live F-O-R-E-V-E-R.
However, as Orlet points out in the article, there is good news for the future. The only Catholic churches which are producing vocations to the priesthood today are those which are traditional and orthodox. Some of these orthodox churches are also what's called "charismatic," i.e., believing in the full expression of the gifts of the Holy Spirit through men. The liberal churches are not generating many vocations to the priesthood at all. So, eventually, this will turn around. The pendulum always swings.
KCHawk| 4.26.12 @ 9:50AM
JP,
Your points are valid. It is important to note that the change back to orthodoxy is much slower and longer climb than the fall from it.
Having said that it is encouraging to see the Church taking action to reign in the wayward sheep. I, like Kat, attend a TLM Church where the families are large and devout. There are two young men discerning the Priesthood in our Church alone, compared with three new seminarians in the entire diocese. Demography and biology are on our side.
Dominus Vobiscum
KCHawk
Occam's Tool| 4.26.12 @ 1:36PM
My understanding was that Benedict chose his name because he is looking to save a "remnant."
Jack in Wi.| 4.26.12 @ 7:38PM
He also was a great admirer of Pope Benedict the 15th who tried mightily to stop WW1 and almost succeeded in the 1916.
AppleAnnie| 4.26.12 @ 11:57AM
Add the "catholic politicians" who create scandal within the church with their open disobedience. The American Catholic church clergy has not informed their parishioners about church teaching. It has not strengthened parishioners in their faith. And now, in 2012, with the 0bama tactics and the abuse of the 1st amendment the church is faced with even more problems. But the good news is...more vocations to the priesthood and religious. Some seminaries and religious orders are filled to capacity. Nuns were habits. Respect the Majesterium. Respect the Pope. Young men are filled with zeal. I'm looking forward to their ordinations.
c matt| 4.26.12 @ 1:09PM
Well, if JPII Catholics have been around 30 years, they are only just now starting to hit their stride. Most would be in their 30's and 40's, maybe 50's. Just now they would be reaching positions of influence in politics, the clergy, etc. And not only that, there are still a large number of pre-JP II's around from whom the levers of influence have to be wrenched. So, it is not surprising that current Catholic practices still match secular conterparts.
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 1:30PM
JP,
Remember, change in the Church happens at a glacial pace.
And, we can't go around trying to pin the blame on one group, or the other. It is the fault of both the bishops and the laity that Catholics don't know their Faith.
It will only be through prayer (the most important) and Catholics actually living their faith that true conversion will take place. I believe we are seeing the seeds that Venerable John Paul II planted beginning to sprout. His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, is now adding the Miracle Grow.
They both had decades of weeds to clean-up. It takes time.
Check out my post, below. In addition to the demise of the Church of Ephesus having much to teach us Americans, Christ's words to the Church in Laodicea apply even more to American Christians:
"I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were cold or hot! So, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of my mouth. For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked."
Keep the Faith, brother.
God Bless!
Occam's Tool| 4.26.12 @ 1:38PM
Nick,
you are a superb individual. Find yourself in Fargo sometime, and I'll find you and buy you a Prime streak, pal. G-d Bless.
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 6:29PM
Occam's Tool,
And, you sir, are a complete gentleman.
You've got a deal. You betcha'!
G-d Bless!
Doctor Right| 4.26.12 @ 3:51PM
Christ's Church never changes; it is eternal.
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 6:27PM
Doctor Right,
Christ's teachings, i.e., the Gospel, never changes.
Christ's Church, i.e., the ekklesia, the assembly of believers, is always changing. Because She is made up of people, and people die.
Christ made ample plans for this fact by giving the Apostles the power to hand on His teachings to others, who would then hand the Gospel down to others. And so on, and so on.
So, in this sense, I guess you could say that Christ's Church is eternal.
Hope you and your family had a Blessed Easter.
God Bless!
Doctor Right| 4.26.12 @ 9:25PM
I stand by my original statement:
Christ's Church never changes. The idea that people change, while true, has no bearing on the message of The Gospels.
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 11:12PM
Yes, but, as non-Catholics are constantly reminding me, correctly I might add, church means assembly, or, community.
Doctor Right| 4.26.12 @ 3:46PM
I think some of these numbers are skewed by the fact that many who call themselves "Catholic" aren't really Catholic at all.
In other words, to them, Catholicism is a cultural identity, NOT a religious Faith. They have a minimal understanding of Catholic doctrines, less understanding of Christian doctrine, and no use for either.
I'd be willing to bet that if a poll of faithful, believing Catholics was taken, the rates of divorce, cohabitation, contraception, and abortion would be much lower.
SeymourGlass| 4.26.12 @ 4:29PM
Right you are, Doc. Here's one place we agree.
Derek Leaberry| 4.26.12 @ 9:39AM
Until the Latin Mass returns to its rightful place as the central Mass of the Roman Catholic Church, traditional Catholics have not won much of anything and Roman Catholicism remains left-wing. The Novus Ordo clown mass of Paul VI is an ersatz mass with qualities of protestantism and secularism intertwined within.
MikeBee| 4.26.12 @ 9:41AM
Derek,
At least the present pope has insisted that the words in the vernacular be more exact translations of the Latin Mass. It's actually kind of nice; takes one back to a time when people actually knew how to speak the English language.
SeymourGlass| 4.26.12 @ 4:33PM
Derek: as somebody who enjoys Mass in English, and who gets as much out of an English Mass as any I've attended said in Latin... that is, the very same Body of Christ received at either... I have to ask you this - at the first Mass on the actual Holy Thursday, did Our Lord speak Latin?
LT| 4.26.12 @ 10:01AM
Christus, herie et hodie, sempiternam = Catholic Tradition, one of the two pillars of the Church. That is what the SSPX stands for - what the Church has always taught and practiced.
Joellen| 4.26.12 @ 11:25AM
A great, informative web site of the true Catholic Faith is "RealCatholictv.com. Michael Voris is a warrior and like many who are in the battle has truly done a service to the faith in his talks, videos and readings. Do yourselves a favor, whether you are Catholic or not, and tune in.
DTOM!| 4.26.12 @ 2:23PM
Did you teach at a parochial school in Illinois in the 60's?
Pastor emeritus Nathan Bickel | 4.26.12 @ 11:40AM
We will know if there is a return to old time religion if Christian leaders and parish pastors start informing their congregations the truth about Obama before election time:
http://moralmatters.org/2012/0.....e-moon-13/
Pastor emeritus Nathan Bickel | 4.26.12 @ 11:42AM
We will know if there is a return to old time religion if Christian leaders and parish pastors start informing their congregations the truth about Obama before election time:
"Obama Not Christian – No More Than the Man in the Moon:"
http://moralmatters.org/2012/0.....e-moon-13/
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 12:57PM
While reading Mr. Orlet's article I was reminded of one of Dr. Scott Hahn's many excellent tape recordings that I've listened to in the past. At the end of a rousing lecture, Dr. Hahn said this (I'm paraphrasing) about the Church in Ephesus:
"The Church in Ephesus had everything going for it. It was founded by Saint Paul, who converted the Jews and Gentiles there, along with Saint Timothy. The Ephesians had Saint John the Apostle and the Blessed Virgin Mary in their midst for many years. They also had Apollos, and Priscilla, and Aquila.
"And where is the Church in Ephesus today? The Church in Ephesus is dead! There is no Christian community in Ephesus, today."
In John's Revelation, Christ tells the Ephesians that He will "take away their lampstand" if they don't repent. From what did they have to repent? After Christ praises them for suffering on His behalf, He admonishes them with these words:
"But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. Remember then from what you have fallen, repent and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent." (Rev. 2:4-5)
Today, all seven churches addressed by Christ in the first few chapters of Revelation are dead. This is what happens to churches that reject the Gospel, like the dissenting, liberal parishes do. They die.
This is also a warning to the Church in America. We cannot assume that we will always be able to freely attend Mass in the United States. You have to get permission from the Turkish authorities to celebrate a Mass in Ephesus today.
With much prayer and hard work, the Church in America can come back to Her former glory. Pray to Our Lady of Guadalupe for the conversion of America.
Our Lady of Guadalupe: Pray for us.
To all the converts posting here today, "Welcome Home!"
And, on top of Joellen's fine suggestion, here are some more good Catholic resources to help deepen your faith. Please, check them out:
EWTN.com & cable channel.
Dr. Hahn's website, http://www.salvationhistory.com/
NewAdvent.org
TheSacredPage.com
Catholic Answers website, Catholic.com
http://newtheologicalmovement.blogspot.com/
I have learned sooooo much from these sites.
God Bless!
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 1:01PM
Check these out, too:
http://cantuar.blogspot.com/
http://catholicdefense.blogspot.com/
Vern Crisler| 4.26.12 @ 3:08PM
Praying to our lady of Guadalupe? Sheesh....You don't understand how horrible that sounds to a Protestant.
MikeBee| 4.26.12 @ 4:11PM
Just askin' the friends for support. If you really believe in the immortality of the soul, you'll understand why it makes sense to Catholics to talk with their friends, and ask for help, even after they are gone.
Ryan| 4.27.12 @ 8:42AM
Except that there is more Biblical standing for praying to the Father (the command "pray like this" before the Lord's Prayer), then the idea that the saints gone before us both listen AND intercede on our behalf (which has some basis in "a great cloud of witnesses," but no explicit statements about intercession).
It's just simpler and definitely clearer in scripture that we make our petitions directly to Christ, and to ask our friends here on earth to pray for us (which WAS done in scripture).
Vern Crisler| 4.27.12 @ 3:11PM
I believe King Saul got whacked pretty good for calling on dead people.
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 6:19PM
Mr. Crisler,
I do understand. I also understand that those Protestants who have such a big problem with it, don't understand what Catholics mean by pray.
Praying is not the same as worshiping, at least not when it comes to Our Lady and the Communion of Saints. We are only petitioning Our Lady to pray for our intentions.
Hence, the Our Lady of Guadalupe: Pray for us.
Just like when Saint Paul asked others to pray for him.
God Bless!
Ryan| 4.27.12 @ 8:44AM
No, sorry, not just like.
One, don't take this as the anti-Catholic stance that Dr. Right does. I believe that the Gospel is and can be found in Catholicism (otherwise the first 1500 years of Christians are thrown under the bus).
That being said, Paul asked Christians here on earth to pray for him, and NEVER made any statement about asking saints in heaven for intercession. It really is two different ideas.
Nick| 4.27.12 @ 9:57PM
Ryan,
I see a contradiction in your point of view.
If the Biblical standard is to pray to the Father, or, as others say, "We can go straight to Christ;" why would Saint Paul ask others to pray for him? It seems superfluous, at best, or, disrespectful to God, at worst. Why not go straight to God all the time?
Also, in John's Revelation, it says that the prayers of the saints are offered like incense (Rev. 5:8). Now, this raises the question: If the saints are in Heaven, and, therefore, aren't praying for themselves (since they have no more needs,) for whom are the saints offering prayers?
God Bless!
Hey Sues| 4.26.12 @ 12:59PM
If you have a soul, what are you?
There is a you AND a soul?
Then who "has" you?
So many regressions!
c matt| 4.26.12 @ 1:13PM
You don't so much "have" a soul as you are a union of soul and body. Much like water is a union of hydrogen and oxygen. But neither hydrogen alone nor oxygen alone is fully "water."
MikeBee| 4.26.12 @ 4:14PM
CMatt's right. You are your soul. You will live forever. You have chosen, though, to submit your powerful soul (made in God's likeness) to a human body, as God did before us, in Jesus Christ. Eventually, your body will pass, but you will live on forever.
Hey Sues| 4.26.12 @ 7:15PM
So, "I" doesn't REALLY exist? That is, the one who is said to "have" a soul is a fiction?
"I" knew it!
robert landbeck| 4.26.12 @ 1:03PM
Any optimism for a revival of 'old time religion' is going to be short lived. If it's not down for the count already, the final blow to tradition is already spreading on the web. The question is could two thousand years of scholastic exegesis and 2 billion 'christians' have it wrong? . . . apparently so! For what science and religion thought impossible has now happened. History has its first literal, testable and fully demonstrable proof for faith.
The first wholly new interpretation for two thousand years of the moral teachings of Christ is published on the web. Radically different from anything else we know of from history, this new teaching is predicated upon a precise, predefined and predictable experience and called 'the first Resurrection' in the sense that the Resurrection of Jesus was intended to demonstrate Gods' willingness to real Himself and intervene directly into the natural world for those obedient to His will, paving the way for access, by faith, to the power of divine transcendence. Ultimate proof!
Thus 'faith' becomes an act of trust in action, to search and discover this direct individual intervention into the natural world by omnipotent power that confirms divine will, law, command and covenant, which at the same time, realigns our moral compass with the Divine, "correcting human nature by a change in natural law, altering biology, consciousness and human ethical perception beyond all natural evolutionary boundaries." So a new religious teaching, testable by faith, meeting all Enlightenment criteria of evidence based causation and definitive proof now exists. Nothing short of an intellectual, moral and religious revolution is getting under way. To test or not to test, that is the question? More info at http://www.energon.org.uk,
http://soulgineering.com/2011/.....-freedoms/
Richard M| 4.26.12 @ 1:13PM
Whatever this interpretation is, Mr. Landbeck, it is not Christian.
Petronius| 4.26.12 @ 1:10PM
If the Church is to survive it must reconcile the altruism it commands with the realities and vicissitudes of life in the streets that the clergy do not experience much. First, they must understand that the parishes function on the gifts of the faithful from our disposable income which is under assault from the statists they are usually in league with. (Notre Dame University trustees and Jesuits take note.) Priests like Fr. Pfleger who use their offices for personal political ends must be brought to heel or defrocked for breaking their vows. Second, return Catholic education to its mission of instilling competence and confidence. But above all, Catholics want acknowledgement and celebration virtue and condemnation of evil with one face and voice for all. The duplicity, ignorance, and passivity towards certain sins and sinners who are important and have fat check books ends for good whether they are in Orders or laymen. Throw the Kennedy's and Pelosis out. The Church is in its present condition due to the hypocrisy of authority at all levels within it.
Then we can talk about bringing back the plain chant, polyphony, and Latin Vulgate. Excuse me while I enjoy the Tallis Scholars sing a Palestrina Mass.
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 1:55PM
Petronius,
Remember the words of Christ:
"What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost, until he finds it? And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, `Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost.' Just so, I tell you, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." - Luke 15:4-7
The role of the bishop is different than that of the laity's. Pray for the bishops to have the strength, courage, and love to confront the heretics in our midst. Especially, those heretics with political power.
To those who are actively leading people away from their faith, I pray for them to repent and come back to God. But, if they refuse, I pray that God will remove them from our world so that they can face His judgement. If it is His will, of course.
That is all we lay people can do, really. That, and actually live our faith in Jesus Christ.
God Bless!
Petronius| 4.26.12 @ 2:51PM
If the Almighty wants me for company in the end, fine. If not, it no longer matters.
Doctor Right| 4.26.12 @ 3:49PM
He wants everyone to be with him "in the end."
Fairbanks99| 4.26.12 @ 2:33PM
The Tallis Scholars are awesome!
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 6:38PM
Petronius, the Catholic Church is and always has been a political institution with it's own agenda and interests. It has a very long and checkered history of, as you put it ""duplicity, ignorance, and passivity towards certain sins and sinners who are important and have fat check books..." and clergy both high and low who "...use their offices for personal political ends".
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 6:50PM
God used men like Abraham, Jacob, Moses, David, Solomon, etc.
Christ called men like Saints Simon Kephas, Matthew the tax collector, Thomas the doubter, and James and John who wanted to be first in the kingdom.
Christ even called Judas Iscariot, the liberal...err...I mean the traitor. Well, Judas was always claiming to care about the poor, when all he really cared about was stealing the alms for himself. Sounds like a typical lefty, to me!
Luckily, the Truth of the Catholic Church doesn't depend on the people who belong to Her.
Petronius| 4.27.12 @ 1:12AM
In very truth.
St. Eislin the Patient, pray for us.
SeymourGlass| 4.26.12 @ 6:51PM
It has a very long and checkered history of, as you put it ""duplicity, ignorance, and passivity towards certain sins and sinners who are important and have fat check books..."
Something like the Democratic party, no?
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 7:13PM
Seymour, kudos to you, well played! You turned around my response to Petronius' post in a way that suited your agenda, while not really responding to my post in any constructive, meaningful way. This is a common technique for many on the far right. But I digress. In response to your comment, has the Democratic Party had it's share of corruption? Hell yes! Just like the Republican Party, The PTL, The National Association of Paper Clip Collectors, etc. All institutions are prone to corruption of varying degrees at some point. What's your point?
61%| 4.26.12 @ 8:10PM
Mercy! Such splendid theologians!
I am dazzled, blinded by your brilliance.
Liberalismisickity, Must Die| 4.27.12 @ 12:22PM
Meaningful discourse between the conservative right and the liberal left is futile. The liberal left engages in unintelligent and dishonest arguments based on emotional prattle devoid of reason and experience. This is not a common technique of the liberal left, it is the only technique. The point is made evident by your posts in this thread, on the concept of the separation of church and state not found in either the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution, and the concept of human overpopulation on a planet with massive amounts of untapped land and natural resources available for subsistence that has not been utilized.
Opal| 4.26.12 @ 1:35PM
The increase in conservative priests stems from an increase in CAtholic families who do not contracept. In my church the average family size is 8. We have 7 children and hopefully there will be more. If you are sitting in a church where the families size on average has only 1.7 children, then you are in a liberal parish.
Derek Leaberry| 4.26.12 @ 1:58PM
At St. Athanasius in Vienna, VA, my family of eight is rather typical. There is one family with ten children.
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 6:30PM
God bless overpopulation!
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 6:38PM
Overpopulation is a myth and a hoax.
Just like man-made global warming and peak oil.
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 7:04PM
Closing in on 7 billion worldwide Nick. How is that a myth?
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 7:26PM
How is 7 billion overpopulated?
ENOUGH ROPE| 4.26.12 @ 7:26PM
A few years ago Rush Limbaugh referred to a study that all of the world's population, living four to a house, could fit in the state of Texas.
Brad Nelson| 4.26.12 @ 2:14PM
“Why this sudden and surprising return to orthodoxy?”
I don’t at all understand why the assumption of orthodoxy. From what I’ve seen, Catholicism is steadily moving Left with no end in sight.
David T| 4.26.12 @ 2:36PM
I left the Episcopal Church for Rome three years ago, and now belong to a TLM parish. We have a growing congregation of 100 families, many with five or more children. Our priest is 35. The bishop is a young 64 and rock-solid in the faith. The future looks good.
LIBERALPARASITES| 4.26.12 @ 3:08PM
Liberalism is the greastest -Evil- of all time a wolf in sheeps clothing...
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 6:26PM
Your comment is relevant to the article in what way?
Not Special Ops Bill| 4.26.12 @ 3:11PM
As a Protestant who attended a Catholic academy because of the Catholic Church's gestures toward openness during the early 60s, around the time of Vatican II, I feel qualified to say that the Roman Catholic has no reason to hide its uniquely Catholic character. For the Catholic Church to make concessions to modernity, except in the most limited sense (such as possibly more comfortable pews, or the occasional microphone, stuff like that) is a terrible mistake that has and will cause the Church more harm than good.
Oldefarte| 4.26.12 @ 3:27PM
Oh Clintorius, where art thou? What say the CINO-MAN BRANDER on the following:
'..........Newsmax Ryan: Catholics Can Disagree Over Budget Cuts Thursday, April 26, 2012 02:33 PMBy: U.S. House Budget Committee Chairman Paul Ryan, under criticism from some fellow Catholics, said his financial plan’s call for cuts in federal aid to the poor is consistent with the church’s teachings.In a speech today at Georgetown University, a Catholic institution in the nation’s capital, Ryan said his proposal complies with the church’s admonishments to care for the needy. “The work I do as a Catholic holding office conforms to the social doctrine as best as I can make of it,” said Ryan of Wisconsin, the House’s chief budget-writer and a possible Republican vice presidential candidate.“There can be differences among faithful Catholics on this,” Ryan said. “If there was ever a time for serious but respectful discussion among Catholics as well as those who don’t share our faith, that time is now.”Ryan was criticized by some Catholics after he told the Christian Broadcasting Network this month that his Catholic upbringing was reflected in his budget, which calls for substantial cuts in food stamps, the Medicaid health-care program and other types of assistance to the needy.
A group of protesters silently raised a banner as Ryan spoke that read, “Stop the war on the poor” and “no social justice in Ryan’s budget.” Almost 90 members of Georgetown’s faculty and administrators signed a letter to Ryan accusing him of misusing the Catholic faith.“Your budget appears to reflect the values of your favorite philosopher, Ayn Rand, rather than the gospel of Jesus Christ,” the letter said.‘Misuse’ of Teaching“We would be remiss in our duty to you and our students if we did not challenge your continuing misuse of Catholic teaching to defend a budget plan that decimates food programs for struggling families, radically weakens protections for the elderly and sick, and gives more tax breaks to the wealthiest few,” the faculty members’ letter said.
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops wrote to lawmakers last week urging them to reject the food stamp cuts proposed by Ryan’s budget.
“We join other Christian leaders in insisting ‘a circle of protection’ be drawn around essential programs that serve poor and vulnerable people,” the bishops’ letter said.Ryan said his cuts, by reducing the government’s budget deficit, would avoid a debt crisis that would force lawmakers to make much more drastic cuts in aid to the poor.Those unwilling to reduce the debt “are complicit in our acceleration toward a debt crisis in which the poor would be hurt the first and the worst,” said Ryan. He said his plan would boost growth and “you can’t lift people out of poverty if you don’t have a growing economy.”“You can’t help America’s poor by making America poor,” he said.............'
Oldefarte| 4.26.12 @ 3:33PM
As a currently non-practicing [although a born, raised, educated] Catholic, I say that the Church has a long, long way to go in cleaning up their act. The recent condemnation of a ND bishop by his fellow clergy is an example of the same old PC'ism that runs rampart within the Church. Additionally the HIDE-THE-PEA of shifting sexual abusive priests happens today sadly. This editorial is testament to the fact that some of us are completely outraged at the historical liberalism that still exists within the Church today, and it has a very long road to travel before its sins are forgiven by some of us. The old adage of DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO is BS!!!!!!!!!!
Kurt NY| 4.26.12 @ 3:49PM
As encouraging as it would be to believe that traditional religion, especially Catholicism, is on the rise, an increase in priestly vocations of maybe 5% when the Catholic population in the US has expanded by 50% is not indicative of anything of the kind.
Bill| 4.26.12 @ 3:54PM
There is only one religion: CHRISTIANITY.
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 5:55PM
"That nigger lover President Clinton had the pen and vetoed so many good bills passed by the Gingrich-led Congress."
- Written by Bill the Floridian Bigot, in the Time for Newt to Do the Honorable Thing thread:
http://spectator.org/archives/.....ent_749403
"[Miami] is infested by millions of uneducated Cubans and Haitian whores."
- Written by Bill the Floridian Bigot, in the Rubio's Nuanced Neoconcervatism thread:
http://spectator.org/blog/2012.....ent_805157
You're a moron and a racist, Bigot Bill from Florida.
GO AWAY!
Pelleas| 4.26.12 @ 6:54PM
"There is only one religion: CHRISTIANITY."
Where does that place us Jews?..or Muslims..? or Hindis?..or...
You can NOT REALLY mean that.. ( ..I'm sorta AFRAID THAT you do, HOWEVER...)
albert constantine jr.| 4.26.12 @ 11:17PM
Greetings in Tel Aviv, Pelleas, Shalom Aleichem.
From your posts of the last week or so, I realize that you are not in accord with most of the conservatives or those on the right who frequent this site and these blogs. As someone who spends way too much time here these days, and has been posting over the last 2-3 years, I will offer my observation to you, which you are (of course) free to heed or discard, as you choose.
The person who posts as "Bill" is a regular, but is generally suspected of being a false flag blogger, i.e. someone who pretends to be conservative. He claims to be in Florida, the great grandson of a confederate soldier, and alternately posts pro/anti-Rubio/Gingrich/Perry/Romney comments, along with racist statements and some ridiculous roboposts.
Nick, another regular, often posts one or two of his more revealing overtly racist postings in response when he appears. Con Chef, another regular, will also often tag his posts.
So, while it is perhaps not entirely appropriate for me to answer a question you've directed at another, I would posit that no, he doesn't really mean it, but somehow his pretextual identity does.
I hope that calms your fears on this particular matter.
Not Special Ops Bill| 4.27.12 @ 9:05AM
There isn't even one Christianity. There's Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodox, Copts, Maronites, then there's a slew of Protestant sects. Then there are the few surviving Christian sects in the Far East.
SF_Exile| 4.26.12 @ 4:45PM
I, too, am taking this with a little bit of salt. More seminarians are always good, but coming from Boston? Hmmm, we'll see. Not exactly known as a bastion of Catholic conservatism.
But, with the Extraordinary Form now being celebrated regularly at the Cathedral there (albeit in the lower church) things seem to be looking up.
Even here in SF it's improving. The Archdiocesan website now lists the parishes offering EF Masses, even if they're held at the wackiest times. When my schedule allows I shlepp to Marin for the noon Mass on Sundays. As Fr. Z would say, "brick by brick".
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 6:13PM
Mr. Orlet shares how he and his brothers went to see the forbidden movie Monty Python's Life of Brian (scandalous!!) and then goes on to say " It was comforting to know someone still took seriously the importance of safeguarding our faith and morals." Sorry, but if you have strong convictions in ANYTHING, be it religion, science, politics, etc. why oh why would you need someone to safeguard it? Why do you need a book or religious organization to tell you what's right and wrong? It should be innate, not taught. Good day.
SeymourGlass| 4.26.12 @ 6:35PM
It's not at all different (the forbidding of the Python movie) than when Roger Ebert wanted an NC-17 rating on The Passion of The Christ since he felt children ought not see it.
In other words, we have many more sources than "books or religious organizations" telling us what's right and wrong, all through our day.
Do you feel that this is ONLY wrong when religious organizations do this, or, always wrong?
Die Limbeckity, Die!| 4.26.12 @ 7:01PM
Seymour, I don't really agree that we have sources telling us daily what's right or wrong, certainly not to the degree fundamentalist Christianity does. Of course, many institutions (political, commercial, the media etc.) use persuasive techniques to sway us to their side or to buy a product, but I'm not sure it's as literal as saying that the bible is 0 the word of God and that to think differently will lead to eternal damnation. In any case to answer your question, I feel it is always wrong, and not just in the case of religious institutions.
dadfly| 4.26.12 @ 9:20PM
well said, mr. orlet. if God's plan includes a continuing role for america, then these small signs of a return to the moral foundation of the republic will presage it; for all our current ills are traceable to our departure from God.
Pelleas| 4.26.12 @ 9:49PM
"for all our current ills are traceable to our departure from God."
If ALL of the troubles on Earth are due to our "divergence" from some mythical , mean-spirited ,supernatural ghost -being.. then --we might as well hang it all up RIGHT NOW-- what's the use of fighting, or coming to terms with such a maleviolent force?
Nick| 4.26.12 @ 11:29PM
"To one who has faith, no explanation is needed. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."
- Saint Thomas Aquinas
Pelleas| 4.27.12 @ 11:07AM
""To one who has faith, no explanation is needed. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."
...In other words.."believe what I say, without question(s) --or SHUT UP.."..??
..NO, THANKS..!
Nick| 4.27.12 @ 10:04PM
Not true. There is much room for free speech in the Catholic Church, on a wide-range of subjects.
Unfortunately, even the dissenting heretics get to speak.
Pelleas| 4.29.12 @ 7:40PM
Why is the speech of " dissenting heretics" ( whatever that might mean...?) UNFORTUNATE?
Nick| 4.29.12 @ 11:33PM
Because, they should be silenced.
A dissenting heretic is someone like San Fran Gran Nan Pelosi, J.F. Kerry, Joe O'Biden, Teddy "The Swimmer" Kennedy, Andy "The Fornicator" Cuomo, Gary Wills, etc., by the way.
POST American| 4.26.12 @ 10:35PM
----Too LATE and ----WAY not enough.
The 'CULL-chore--ALL' subversion,
over some 8 decades, by the deadly
sinister Rockefeller 'Counts-ILL of
Churches' and its stew of bottomlessly
funded and promoted 'eck--YOU-MEN
--ICK--ALLLLL-ism' is a matter of
record. The fruits are there for ALL to
see.
CUT TO THE CHASE
Word's now out ---even beyond sodomy ops
and X-termination of the unborn ---the capstone's
to use, from ALLLLL angles ---ISLAM for the
religious component of their world takedown
op. next 'phase'.
THIS explains entirely the floodgates
opened in Europe, the Groud Zero mosque,
the quiet settlement of MILLIONS upon
MILLIONS of muslims across our midwest, the
open borders, and the reports of ISLAM seeding
going on even among the Mexicans. This is
KEY!
AS genuine, ordinary people become
increasingly more baffled, disenfranchised
and disgusted with the moral fold of
capstone subverted christianity
----look for MASS conversions across
the west in the coming years.
IT's CLEAR! -Islam, the religion of slaves
and by slaves ---which literally thrives
in prisons ---is to be the needed religious
component for the NWO.
"Paris, I have to say it ---is now
a birka republic."
DO---DO ----DO! CHECK OUT
the latest Jay Weidner interview
'Clash of Civilizations' pt. 2
RED Ice Radio
(on yahoo videos)
IT WILL BLOW YOUR MIND
and have even CON-firmed porch
'MAY--SIN-Re' reaching for a
Geneva Bible.
This --IS--- the 11th hour. . .
Ted R.| 4.27.12 @ 10:00AM
What strange talking animals! Sharing their bizarre stories with each other, all in earnest; alas, it does not change the fact that none of them will be even a memory, when the Sun goes out.
R is for Repugnant| 4.27.12 @ 12:31PM
We strange talking animals will earnestly attempt to avoid rubbing your soul in this comment on the first thousandth anniversary date - of either this comment or of the Sun going out - or any other anniversary date, as your existence at that time will not be considered bizarre at all by any of us, but as predictable then as it is now.
Ted R.| 4.28.12 @ 12:21PM
Vanity. The glorification of Self. NO one is so important that they should live such a long time. And in your vanity, you neglect to even pause for one moment, and consider whether unending life is even something to wish for, let alone crave. Time to begin thinking, Christian.
R is for Repugnant| 4.30.12 @ 11:33AM
Stupidity. And the dishonesty of the self. No one is of any importance whatsoever absent absolute reality. In your stupidity, and dishonesty, you neglect to even pause for one moment and consider whether relative reality is even something to wish for, let alone crave. Time to begin thinking, unintelligent and dishonest illogical idiot, whether temporal meaningless existence due only to random accident and nothing else, or eternal meaningful existence due only to intentional design and nothing else, is the more desirable option to live life in accordance with, much less risk the consequence of, not to mention which is in reality the truly vain alternative to believe in.
POST American| 4.27.12 @ 11:47PM
"---And they STILL are EUGENISTS,
make NO mistake."
-Informed online
--ALLLL under the guise of
'HELL----ping' us.
"AS every red indian well knows,
'charity' is the white man's MOST
insidious poison."
D H Lawrence
1922
'HELL---ping', a la 'the Doctine of Works'
and that 'fave' instrument of Christian
subversion and takedown dopwn thru
the centuries ---the Arminian Heresy.
---And NOW white men themselves
are finally -------'REAL---eyes-zing'.