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Why Has No One Taken Credit?
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Loose Canons
No Man Can Fight Forever
Reflections on the Robert Bales case.
(Page 2 of 2)
One of them said, “If you want to break this army, break your word to it.” We promised our troops a mission they could accomplish, a war they could win and our comprehensive support. We’ve broken those promises in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The futility of the way we have fought this war must be felt by everyone fighting it. As I’ve written here often, if you don’t fight a war in a manner calculated to win it decisively, you will lose it inevitably. The corollary to that is that you will also weaken the spirit and readiness of your forces to fight again. Not permanently. Americans are resilient, and our armed forces are still the best in the world. But it may be a long time before we can unbreak our promises to them and restore their readiness to fight again.
No man can fight forever. It took Odysseus a decade to fight his way back from Troy. We are now in our eleventh year of war in Afghanistan. It’s now time to bring our men home.
About the Author
Jed Babbin served as a Deputy Undersecretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush. He is the author of several bestselling books including Inside the Asylum and In the Words of Our Enemies. You can follow him on Twitter @jedbabbin.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (168) | Leave a comment
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Dec| 3.26.12 @ 7:26AM
"It's now time to bring our men home."
Thank you.
vtwin| 3.26.12 @ 9:49AM
Jed Babbin does NOT want to “bring our men home.” He wants to free them up for the next Neocon war.
http://spectator.org/archives/.....hreshold/1
Tim the Enchanter| 3.26.12 @ 3:51PM
Go ride your tricycle.
Screwtape| 3.27.12 @ 5:15PM
“Republics mind their own business. Their governments have very limited powers, and their people are too busy practicing self-government to worry about problems in other countries. Empires not only bully smaller, defenseless nations, they also can’t leave their own, hapless subjects alone…. Empires and the tenth amendment aren’t friends…. Empires and small government aren’t compatible, either.” Scotchie
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 11:59AM
I agree with the need for our troops to come home but not for the reasons given by the anarcho-fruitcakes. The simple matter is the anti-Christian Afghan people don't deserve our support.
Unfortunately, for Mr. Bales, he was not in a trench and going mad from shell shock as were soldiers in WW1. He was at a base and deliberately left the base to go out and murder. This seems more an act of hate than of madness.
Vox populi| 3.26.12 @ 2:29PM
No doubt you have vasr personal experience of the subject to be able to make such judgements without having heard any evidence. Or perhaps you are just an idiot.
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 3:56PM
Or perhaps you are just an idiot.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:36PM
Mr. Bales had a traumatic brain injury. Combat fatigue studies going back to WWII state that roughly 240 days of frontline combat will break anyone (many break before).
If I were the defense attorney (speaking as an experienced expert witness regarding psychiatric issues), I'd want a full neuropsychiatric battery of tests, including PET scan and MRI. I'd especially want tests for subtle psychosis to be done as well as tests for executive functioning. In short, it might very well be possible to get some type of exoneration due to mental illness or traumatic brain injury, and, if anyone deserves it, it's this guy.
Vern Crisler | 3.26.12 @ 9:00PM
If he had "snapped" and shot the first people he saw -- someone on the base, that argument might have some (small) merit. However, he didn't shoot the first people he saw; he deliberately with premeditation sought out Afghan women and children and murdered them.
There's only so much that battle fatigue can justify -- and it's not looking too good for Mr. Bales given all the circumstances (assuming the moron media is reporting things accurately).
Anthony M| 3.26.12 @ 9:52PM
How do you know "he deliberately with premeditation sought out Afghan women and children and murdered them"? Have you spoken to Sgt Bales? Are you one of them psychics I've heard about that can become an eagle, travel back in time read the minds of those involved and categorically pass judgement? Why not wait until the investigation is over before joining in on the national media lynching?
Vern Crisler| 3.27.12 @ 11:16AM
My understanding is that he confessed to killing them. On the other hand, the moron media usually gets it wrong and has to correct itself later.
Bob K.| 3.26.12 @ 2:04PM
You know Mr. Babbin, your title if not your article is common sense!
And, as for your article, you can't isolate Afghanistan from the rest of our recent military forays into the Near East and the Balkans.
How long do you and more importantly, the voters here in the USA think we can keep sending the same troops into those nearBob eastern sumps? But where are we going to get more troops to continue this without a draft? When are you guys going to start calling for that? Where do you guys stand on a draft, Mr. Babbin? I'll bet the word alone scares the crap out of you!
This adventure in the near east ,which we entered with Bush the Elder, is starting to resemble, at least in time spent, Europe's 17th century 30 years war!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_Years'_War
Jack in Wi.| 3.26.12 @ 7:34AM
Mr. Babbin with all due respect: Isn't it time for neocons like yourself to just apologize and go away. You guys have been wrong on most everything for a long time. Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, Bob Novak, and General Brent Showcroft warned what would happen if we went into Iraq and tried to nation build in Afganistan. They have been proved almost totally right.
Von Mises Jr.| 3.26.12 @ 7:50AM
Without defending the neocons, one should realize that the liberals (read socialist) are even bigger warmongers. Who got us into and then escalated the war in Vietnam?(Hint: JFK/LBJ) Who got us into Somolia and bombed Kosovo? (Hint: WJC) Who injected themselves into Egypt and invaded Libya? (Hint: BHO)
You see Jack, socialist need and love war. Think of Stalin and his neighbors, Hitler and the Nazi threat to Europe, Mao and Japan, China's current occupation of Tibet and threat to Taiwan.
Hayek's "Socialism and War" explains that socialist seek war to implement a war economy and then argue that it works so well that we should have a planned economy in peacetime. And Mises taught that when planned economies fail due to lack of responsiveness, inefficiency and corruption, a "Bokonon" foil is the best diversion.
Jack in Wi.| 3.26.12 @ 8:01AM
The original Neocons were mostly old Trotskyites. That is of course the most radical wing of Communism. Trotsky preached worldwide Communist Reovolution. The Neocons have shifted to worldwide Democratic revolution. That means they still love revolution and big intrusive government as long as they run it. They should have beeen run out of the Republican party and conservative movement decades ago. They have nothing in common with most traditional conservatives and libertarians.
Von Mises Jr.| 3.26.12 @ 9:03AM
Jack, Diana West is allegedly writing a book on this. I do not disagree with the socialist takeover of the Republican Establishment, or at least its infiltration.
Ignore Brooksie, he learned his history in the comic section of the NYT.
Jack in Wi.| 3.26.12 @ 5:34PM
Everyone should read ' Leftism Revisited from De Sade and Marx to Hitler and Pol Pot ' by the late, great Eric Von Kuehnelt Leddihn. He was a great writer and thinker.
Alan Brooks| 3.26.12 @ 8:29AM
von Mises, don't you krauts EVER talk about WWII-- that is like Russians talking about the Holodomor..
Von Mises Jr.| 3.26.12 @ 8:58AM
I thought I told you to go away, troll. I am excersizing my "right" to be left alone. I think you are a stalker.
SUBVET| 3.26.12 @ 1:45PM
Brooks.....is a stalker with a hoodie.
Von Mises Jr.| 3.26.12 @ 2:24PM
A hoodie footie pajama
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 1:32PM
Brooks, Ludwig von Mises was a Jew who came to America to escape the Nazis.
vtwin| 3.26.12 @ 10:07AM
Hitler and the Nazi were fascist not socialist, it war Bush Sr. not Clinton that “got us into Somalia” and no one injected themselves into Egypt or invaded Libya. You gotta stop watching Fox “News.”
vtwin| 3.26.12 @ 10:11AM
Sorry, I meant was Bush not "war Bush."
When I think Bush it thinks war.
Rusky| 3.26.12 @ 10:45AM
I will transmit this to Vladimir.
Teaghan| 3.26.12 @ 10:18AM
YOU best stop watching MSNBC.
Puprle Lips| 3.26.12 @ 10:45AM
"Hitler and the Nazi were fascist not socialist..."
A distinction that means nothing. For the last 90 years all socialists have been fascist. The question is one of degree and not kind. When a particualr party wishes to "transform" a nation in the way that the Rev Wesley wished to transform London's gin ridden streets, it is a fascist party. Whenever you hear a politician, reverend, or activist speak of his nieghborhood or city or oganization as a "community" (ie gemeinschaft)he is a fascist. If you want the sad truth, about all politicians (Republican or Democrat) betray fascist tendencies. The old style liberalism of Locke, Adam Smith, and Thomas Hobbes is passee. The term Neocon is a meaningless term. It lacks precision,
vtwin| 3.26.12 @ 11:55AM
“Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victimhood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion.” -- Robert O. Paxton
Under Paxton definition Fascism is not necessarily predisposed to any particular social or economic organization of a society. Therefore Fascism could arise to defend or adopt either collectivism or individualism.
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 1:35PM
Nonsense, Paxton conveniently leaves out the way Nazis defined themselves, i.e., as socialists, hence National Socialists. Modern socialists don't like being associated with their ideological cousins, but that doesn't change what the Nazis were -- socialists who hated Individualism or classical liberralism.
RCV| 3.26.12 @ 3:38PM
The Nazis called themselves "national socialists" only to try to preempt the communists and draw support from the German workers. There was nothing "socialist" in the economic sense about their program, however. They operated with the support and collaboration of German corporate interests such as IG Farben, German automakers and munitions dealers, who were happy to avail themselves of slave labor.
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 3:58PM
RCV, you should read Jonah Goldberg's *Liberal Facism*. You'll see how Fascism was just the European version of Progressivism (which was semi-socialist).
ASTANVET| 3.26.12 @ 2:15PM
actually, The term fascism/fascist came from the Italian word fascio, which means group, and also from the Latin word fasces. The fasces were a bundle of rods that were tied around an axe. The symbolism of the fasces suggested strength through unity: one rod is easily broken, while the bundle is hard to break. -- so much for could be adopted by "either collectivism or individualism...and every time there has been a facist (EVERY TIME) he has been a socialist. Dude, seriously -
As for the article, I'm tired of people rationalizing this guys behavior based on the number of tours - we've (those of us who serve) done a lot over the last 10 years - but no one owes us anything, it's all volunteer - This guy's actions have brought discredit on the US Army, and American Servicemen as a whole. I hope he doesn't get off on an insanity defense, I hope he is held to the HIGHEST standard of military justice.
Quartermaster| 3.26.12 @ 8:32PM
Hitler specifically, in so many words, called himself a Marxist. Hitler was a species of leftist known as a Fascist which meant industrialist could keep their companies and profits, as long as the toed the government line. Hitler, at first, wanted to nationalize heavy industry, but he had watched what Lenin and Stalin did to the Soviet Union and realized what it would do to Germany if he nationalized heavy industry. It was what allowed Germany to fight the war because industry was allowed to keep the incentive of the profit motive. If Ivan had not gotten the war aid it did from us, it he would have lost against the Germans. Frankly, it would have been better if we had stayed out and let them destroy each other.
Vern Crisler | 3.26.12 @ 9:02PM
And let's not forget that it was the Soviet Union that helped Germany re-arm during the inter-war years.
Dai Alanye | 3.26.12 @ 12:29PM
GHW Bush went into to Somalia but Clinton refused to properly back our troops, leading to Blackhawk Down. Put the blame where it's due.
Von Mises Jr.| 3.26.12 @ 12:57PM
National "Socialist" party, jacka$$
I don't watch FOX since they cancelled Beck and Judge Napolitano. But you trolls can only think in groups because you have no personality or reasoning of your own.
W| 3.26.12 @ 5:25PM
vtwin
Guess what country had the National Socialist Party, shortened to Nazi, in Europe?
Guess which Italian dictator first name Benito, last name M............ was a member of the Italain Socialist party?
Bob K.| 3.26.12 @ 1:41PM
You are all wrong.
Read John Lukacs's "Democracy and Populism--Fear and Hatred" to find out what Fascism is and who the Fascists were during WWII.
See the chapters at pages 110, 116 and 131 entitled respectively: "Misuse and misreading of "Fascism:" ' Misuse and misreading of "totalitarianism:" ' Misuse and misreading of National Socialism as an "ideology."
There are also chapters on "Popular sovereignty and socialism, p.32--Popular sovereignty and nationalism, p.35-Nationalism and socialism, p38."
This book was published in 2005 and is one of almost 50 histories and historical essays he has published.
It wouldn't hurt if Jed Babbin read the book too.
Von Mises Jr.| 3.26.12 @ 2:27PM
I read Ludwig Von Mises "Socialism." He founded the Austrian School of Economist and fled Hitler for his life. I also read other books of his and Hayek who also fled Hitler for his life.
Perhaps if you think we are wrong, you can enlighten us. It is too late for you to school Von Mises and Hayek. Mother time killed them instead of Hitler.
Bob K.| 3.26.12 @ 6:20PM
I've read both Hayek and Von Mises. So has Lukacs. If you have read them then you are smart enough to read Lukacz. Get the enlightenment from the source! The book costs less than 20 bucks.
Clint| 3.26.12 @ 8:12AM
Pat Buchanan,
" Neoconservatives Are The Boat People Of The McGovern Revolution."
The Tea Party Rebellion Heads To An Open Convention.
Alan Brooks| 3.26.12 @ 8:30AM
''The Tea Party Rebellion Heads To An Open Convention."
Good, tear the convention apart.
Clint| 3.26.12 @ 8:36AM
Obama's Troll Brooks Is Scared Of The Tea Party & An Open Convention.
Boo !
DevilDog| 3.26.12 @ 11:10AM
boat people?
how very PROGRESSIVE and RACIST of pocket lint the coward
Clint| 3.26.12 @ 3:43PM
Devil's Sugar Pockets, The PC Phoney Attempts To Play His Race Card On Tea Party Clint.
You Know Where To Find Me, Coward.
The Tea Party Rebellion Heads To An Open Convention.
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 1:37PM
Huh, Buchanan and the Paulistas share McGovern's foreign policy views.
Clint| 3.26.12 @ 3:47PM
Read George Washington's Farewell Address, Thomas Jefferson's First Inaugural Address, The Old Right And Get Back To Us.
" George Will, "Today, we have a very different kind of foreign policy. It’s called Wilsonian. And the premise of the Bush Doctrine is that America must spread democracy, because our national security depends upon it. And America can spread democracy. It knows how. It can engage in national building. This is conservative or not?"
William F. Buckley, " It’s not at all conservative. It’s anything but conservative. It’s not conservative at all, inasmuch as conservatism doesn’t invite unnecessary challenges. It insists on coming to terms with the world as it is …”
The Tea Party Rebellion Heads To An Open Convention.
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 5:39PM
And as I've pointed out to you several times, you anarcho-Paulistas hate George Washington and W. F. Buckley.
Clint| 3.26.12 @ 6:14PM
Bullcrap, Propaganda Buffoon Bloviator,Vern Baby.
" Like the Founding Fathers, Ron Paul believes in a strong national defense. Also like the Founders, Paul fears adopting an irrational offense. Our first President George Washington expressed this fear on September 17, 1796 when he delivered his farewell address. Washington said America should:
Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all… In the execution of such a plan, nothing is more essential than that permanent, inveterate antipathies against particular nations, and passionate attachments for others, should be excluded; and that, in place of them, just and amicable feelings towards all should be cultivated. The nation which indulges towards another a habitual hatred or a habitual fondness is in some degree a slave…
The nation, prompted by ill-will and resentment, sometimes impels to war the government, contrary to the best calculations of policy. The government sometimes participates in the national propensity, and adopts through passion what reason would reject; at other times it makes the animosity of the nation subservient to projects of hostility instigated by pride, ambition, and other sinister and pernicious motives…
The peace often, sometimes perhaps the liberty, of nations, has been the victim…
The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is in extending our commercial relations, to have with them as little political connection as possible. So far as we have already formed engagements, let them be fulfilled with perfect good faith. Here let us stop…
Our detached and distant situation invites and enables us to pursue a different course. If we remain one people under an efficient government. the period is not far off when we may defy material injury from external annoyance; when we may take such an attitude as will cause the neutrality we may at any time resolve upon to be scrupulously respected; when belligerent nations, under the impossibility of making acquisitions upon us, will not lightly hazard the giving us provocation; when we may choose peace or war, as our interest, guided by justice, shall counsel…
It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world… to warn against the mischiefs of foreign intrigue, to guard against the impostures of pretended patriotism…"
The Tea Party Rebellion Heads To An Open Convention.
Vern Crisler| 3.27.12 @ 11:17AM
Go read your friends at the Lew Rockwell site; you'll find all the Washington and Buckley hating there.
Kenny| 3.26.12 @ 8:13AM
To my mind, the real crime in Iraq and Afghanistan is the rules of engagements our troops have been forced to operate under by Bush and Obama Administrations.
Given that, I could never recommend any young person to join the Army or Marines. They might end up fighting & dying not for America but rather for Muslim sensitivities -- and no matter what the fools who spout the multicultural crap might say, the two are not synonymous.
Jack in Wi.| 3.26.12 @ 8:20AM
The rules of engagement are supposed to be based on International Law. The Germans and Soviets didn't try to follow them. The Americans in numerous conflicts have violated them as well. But we are supposed to have higher standards then the Nazi's and commies.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.26.12 @ 10:13AM
This from the dolt who's a "proud 4-F" & who's father told him it'd be "better to be a live coward." What would YOU know about what it takes to fight a suicidal enemy, who believes they're on a mission from G*d. For the way to fight an enemy like that, look at what we had to do to the Japanese.
DevilDog| 3.26.12 @ 11:03AM
I visualize General George Patton addressing everyone today. It would go something like this......
ATTENTION!
To ALL those whining, panty-waisted, pathetic Citizens, it's time for a little refresher course on exactly why we Americans occasionally have to fight wars to keep this nation great.
See if you can tear yourself away from your "reality" TV and Starbucks for a minute,pull your head out of your ass -- and LISTEN UP!!
Abu Ghraib is not "torture" or an "atrocity."
Got that ?
THIS IS an atrocity!
Daniel Pearl beheading
So Was This!!!
Twin Towers attack
WHICH PART DON'T YOU GET?
Islam Extemists are peaceful people?
My Ass!
Millions of these warped missled sons-of-bitches are plotting, as we speak, to destroy our country and our way of life any way they can.
Some of them are here among us now.
They don't want to convert you and don't want to rule you. They believe you are a vile infestation of Allah's paradise. They don't give a shit how "progressive" you are, how peace-loving you are, or how much you sympathize with their cause.
They want your ass dead, and they think it is God's will for them to do it.
Some think if we give them a hug or listen to them, then they'll like us, and if you agree -
Then you are a pathetic dumb ass!
If they manage to get their hands on a nuke,chemical agents, or even some anthrax -- you will wish to God we had hunted themdown and killed THEM while we had the chance.
How many more Americans must be beheaded?
You've fallen asleep AGAIN - get your head out of your ass!
You may never get another chance!
NOW GET OFF YOUR SORRY ASS
And pass this on to any and every person you give a damn about - if you ever gave a damn about anything!
DISMISSED!
MickeyG| 3.26.12 @ 11:14AM
Ahhh....you got it !!
Semper Fi.
DevilDog| 3.26.12 @ 11:47AM
OOH RAH BROTHER
SUBVET| 3.26.12 @ 1:51PM
DevilDog....you must be related to TLP.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:40PM
You forgot my favorite part---about using their slimy guts to grease our tank tracks, DD. Otherwise, "poifect."
seth | 3.26.12 @ 7:42PM
So this is why we Americans should spend trillions of dollars and lose thousands of brave young lives to support Christian-hating, sharia loving governments in Afghanistan and Iraq. Now I understand.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:39PM
Con: as usual, you are correct. I think Jack should spend a little time in Israel dodging missiles. He, and Clint, are low lives. Paul is doomed.
DevilDog| 3.26.12 @ 11:13AM
we DO have higher standards. that is why wusses like jackieBOY never served. they were UNFIT.
who would want a coward standing next to them?
now what would these cowards like pocket lint and jackieBOY know about war? they are SAFE in their HOMES while OTHERS do the fighting.
typical monday morning quarterbacks, they can tell OTHERS how to fight but do NOT fight themselves. just like academics, sit in a college their whole life and never experience real life but just KNOW so much more about real life than those who live it.
those that CAN, DO. those that CANT, TEACH
Con Chef (NB) | 3.26.12 @ 11:33AM
And lest we forget, Jack called himself a "proud 40F." Do we really need to know anything more?
DevilDog| 3.26.12 @ 11:48AM
NAH! anyone that is PROUD to be a COWARD is someone i dont want to know. just box them up and ship them out
Con Chef (NB) | 3.26.12 @ 12:00PM
Right there with ya, Bro!
Shadow| 3.26.12 @ 1:23PM
I had so much to say in reply to Jack's whining but you heroes did a fine job for me, just like you fought for me and our country.
Gentlemen, I salute you!
Con Chef (NB) | 3.26.12 @ 2:15PM
Right back at you, Shadow!
Drunken Sailor| 3.26.12 @ 5:36PM
Well done and Semper Fi!
Quartermaster| 3.26.12 @ 8:37PM
40F? Is that 10 times worse than 4F? Inquiring minds want to know! :-)
Clint| 3.26.12 @ 4:09PM
Where'd Your Chickenhawk Candidate Serve, Devil's Sugar Pockets ?
" Dr. Ron Paul served in the United States Air Force as a flight surgeon for several years (1963-1965). While in the air force, Paul reached the rank of Captain. Directly after his service in the air force, Paul worked again as a flight surgeon for the United States Air National Guard (1965-1968).
" Paul served as a flight surgeon in the U.S. Air Force in the 1960s, spending time on the ground in countries like Ethiopia, Iran, Pakistan, South Korea, and Turkey. He also sits on the House Committee on Foreign Affairs."
The Tea Party Rebellion Heads To An Open Convention
Jay Stevens| 3.26.12 @ 6:16PM
I just love the whole "Chickenhawk" argument. By the same reasoning, if you have never served, you shouldn't be president (Commander-in-Chief). For that matter, if you have never held public office, you shouldn't vote. If you are not a carpenter, you shouldn't criticize the workmanship of your house. If ..., well, you get the idea.
Jay Stevens
U. S. Army, ret.
Bill| 3.27.12 @ 10:51AM
Over about the past 45 years, the great bulk of Democrats never got to the level of "chickenhawk."
They fell into the category of "draft dodger."
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:42PM
He was a flight surgeon. Jesus, Clint, he saw considerably less action than I did treaVA patients during the LA riots. I have lived under martial law and practiced medicine for the state under such circumstances. Paul was a pampered medical officer.
Each time you write this crap you insult your supposed dad.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:54PM
Sorry: "Treating VA"
Quartermaster| 3.26.12 @ 8:41PM
Flight Surgeons do not "rise" to the rank of Captain, they are commissioned at that rank. Since he left the military at that rank, it means he rose to nothing. I've tried to get Clint to realize this repeatedly, and it's all wasted electrons.
I used to think Clint was honest and sincere, but no longer. He's simply obtuse. Intentionally so.
And, yeah Clint, I'm a Christian Zionist. Make of it what you will - I wear it. But I didn't want either Iraq or the AFG. I thought they were bad ideas, and nation building simply stupid.
L. Ross| 3.26.12 @ 8:38AM
The sad fact is that while it is possible to change a culture from the outside, it sure ain't pretty to do. We know what needs to be done. Scorched earth. We did it to Japan. We did it to Germany. Hell, we did it to the Confederate South with Sherman. If you don't wage war against the populace - not the military, but the average guy on the street - to the extent that the average guy on the street is fearful for his life and the lives of his family members, the populace doesn't know that they have been beaten. That is why we have endless guerilla attacks by unconventional troops. If we have a goal of changing the culture of a distant land, our president should admit what it is going to take before we set out, and then that president should take a long hard look in the mirror and spend a lot of time soul searching, because unlimited war is a great evil and should only be fought when absolutely necessary. However, if there is anything we should have learned since WWII, it is that without unlimited war and massive civilian casualties, it is impossible to change a culture from the outside. If you don't want to go there, don't start.
Personally, I feel that the attacks on Sep 11, 2001 justified unlimited war against Afghanistan, and possibly Iraq. Those attacks were a wakeup call to the ongoing attacks against the west by islam, attacks which have proceeded pretty much non-stop since at least the massacre of Israeli atheletes at Munich in 1972. This limited war has been a waste of time and the best of our nations youth.
vtwin| 3.26.12 @ 9:39AM
In WWII both Germany and Japan were the aggressor nation and their respective populations were involved in the war efforts i.e. arms production. Iraq was not at war nor was Iraq the aggressor we were and Afghanistan although at war it was at war with itself i.e. a civil war. So, what would be the “legal” justification for the mass killing of the civilian populations of Iraq and Afghanistan?
Puprle Lips| 3.26.12 @ 10:31AM
"So, what would be the “legal” justification for the mass killing of the civilian populations of Iraq and Afghanistan?"
I dunno. Why don't you ask Major Hassan?
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 1:39PM
What "mass" killings?
DevilDog| 3.26.12 @ 11:07AM
1. under the cease fire rules of Gulf War I, sadam had VIOLATED over a hundred of them. each one was an act of aggression and thus under that cease fire was reason enough to go back into iraq.
maybe you dont understand that he signed a contract and broke that contract and that in that contract he signed were clauses that specifically told him that if he violated any part we would RENEW the war.
OOPS! guess you morons never knew that it was a CEASE FIRE and NOT an end to the Gulf War and that anytime he VIOLATED any provision that the cease fire CALLED for a RESUMPTION of hostilities
Drunken Sailor| 3.26.12 @ 5:41PM
Dead Center DevilDog! We didn't need another excuse to go in. Sadaam gave us plenty just by violating the Cease Fire agreement. Explain that to a Liberal and watch them turn beet red trying to refute it.
L. Ross| 3.26.12 @ 11:14AM
vtwin:
I understand your point. Like I said, total war demands a real gutcheck. However, our enemy IS fighting total war. Anytime people are effectively commiting suicide in an attack, they are engaged in total war. Not the population as a whole, but the islamist nutjobs. However, the population as a whole is supporting these islamist nutjobs. Unless we are willling to radically impact the population as a whole, these attacks will continue. The last person who really made an impression on islamist attackers was Vlad the Impaler. That guy completely understood psychological warfare. I'm not saying you have to agree with me, I'm just saying that if we wish to impact the problem (endless attacks on Christian and Jewish target populations by islamist nutjobs) we need to do what it takes. Otherwise, just stay out of it.
In other words, if we are in, we should be all the way in. Anything else is a waste of our time and theirs. We won't change their culture, and we will cost our culture tremendously in lives, limbs, and dollars.
Tribute| 3.26.12 @ 11:38AM
South Korea circa 1958.
Koreans (south Koreans) are the world's best thieves. Bar none. This plagues the U.S. Army's efforts to stablize the nation during a now very tense ceasefire with the North. The U.S. Army is scattered in many small camps throughout, and the U.S. Army is not alone in this effort. Other NATO militaries are also present.
Only about two miles distant from one another are a U.S. Army camp of approximately 600 soldiers and a somewhat smaller Turkish army camp. Thievery is rampant at the U.S. camp. It is nearly daily. Everything that is not nailed down is stolen, in the dead of night, in the snow, in a monsoon rain, you name it. Field kitchen items, chairs, cots, blankets, boots, roof tiles, flooring mats, maps, desks, batteries, fuel, oil, tenting, food stores, etc. etc.
U.S. Army camp captain goes to his Turkish counterpart to see if the Turks face the same weekly onslaught of thievery.
No. Reason. Six heads, decapitated heads, prominently displayed on wooden pikes in front of the Turkish camp entrance.
Yep. You guessed it. The six heads were once those of living Korean men -- thieves caught in the act.
No stealing at the Turkish camp.
Dai Alanye | 3.26.12 @ 12:32PM
vtwin strikes me as either being quite ignorant of history or deliberately misstating facts to make a point. He/she isn't worthy of serious debate.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:44PM
Afghanistan was protecting Bin ladin, vtwin. Iraq was not in compliance with UN regulation regarding possible production of WMDs, and Hussein we knew was a genocidal scumbag.
While I think rebuilding a nation of savages is a waste, I certainly support nation destroying.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:55PM
Mr. Ross: you are totally correct. Rubble don't cause trouble.
Quartermaster| 3.26.12 @ 8:47PM
Ross, the north invented modern total war. The south was not fighting total war, not even close. Lincoln, Grant and his minions wear the stain of coldly attacking the civilian populace as a strategic asset. In other words, Sherman and Sheridan intentionally attacked an essentially unarmed populace of women and children. Something for which we hanged men at Nuremburg and Tokyo.
Lincoln, Grant, Sherman, and Sheridan are an eternal stain on the north and the United States. That's not even dealing with the Yankee officers that used confederate prisoners as human shields at places like Charleston.
Even in WW2, LeMay said that they had better win. If we lose they will hang us for war crimes. And he was right. Total war has never been right. It is immoral and has always been considered so in western civilization.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.26.12 @ 10:06AM
The uptick in casualties in the war can be layed SQUARELY at the feet of the Obama administration. Their idiotic ROE have done more to kill & maim our troops than almost anything else. Its Vietnam all over again. A war that's micromanaged from the White House & by Congress, while good soldiers & Marines die to carry them out.
In the end, I agree with Mr. Babbin. Time to get out. Its time to bring those forces home to rest, re-fit & train. Again, we've failed to learn what happens when war is micro-managed for idiotic reasons such as public perception. And its liberalism, in power or not, that's made it that way. Anyone who's read Marcus Luttrell's "Lone Survivor" knows why his team was compromised & the reason they made the decision they did, that resulted in 3 of those 4 men dying.
One of the first & only times I ever saw my Dad cry was when I went to the Vietnam Memorial with him when I was 12. He found the names of a couple of his shipmates who flew off one day & didn't make it back. He turned to me, with tears in his eyes & said, "Sonny Boy, its a f**king shame they didn't build this thing to face Congress."
And he was right. We've learned nothing since then.
Vern Crisler| 3.26.12 @ 1:41PM
He blamed Congress? It was Johnson and his stupid genius advisors who screwed up Vietnam.
SUBVET| 3.26.12 @ 2:07PM
Ah......excuse me Congress what a crock. Look it up major contractors were going broke "they" (Huey among others) needed the Vietnam war to get back on their feet. It's all about the $$$ all wars are about money. Just read your history about WWII all the US factory's (SKF) that were spared during the bomgings of Germany. And the ones that didn't escape the US gave them money they lost.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.26.12 @ 2:19PM
SUBVET:
While what you say may very well be true, I don't think for one minute that my Dad thought that was why he went over there. He went to serve his country (he volunteered). Even in his older years, before he died, he never thought of it as anything more than that.
SUBVET| 3.26.12 @ 10:23PM
ConChef....I hope you don't think I was disrespecting your dad. I too volunteered 65-69 and served my country. At the time that was what was needed and I did it without hesitation just like your dad.
My point was war usually benefits big business most "false flags" have a hidden agenda all you have to do is follow the money trail right to the politicians.
Quartermaster| 3.26.12 @ 8:49PM
The company that built the UH-1 was, and still is, known as Bell. A large chunk of Bell was owned by Lady Bird Johnson.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.26.12 @ 2:17PM
I think he meant it as a reminder to Congress about what happens when a war is micro-managed. I wish I could still ask him, though.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:45PM
It is a shame about your glorious dad, Con. I wish I had been as lucky in fathers as you.
The enemy in your own camp| 3.26.12 @ 10:10AM
Two more U.S. military officers killed (murdered) by an Afghan army member just today....
Awlhattin O'Kaddle| 3.26.12 @ 10:29AM
I think they were Brits
vtwin| 3.26.12 @ 10:31AM
I think they were British.
http://www.google.com/hostedne.....3ea30dbcf6
Drunken Sailor| 3.26.12 @ 5:44PM
I don't think it matters if they were ours or the Brits. The point is the same, the Afghan army members should not be trusted.
Awlhattin O'Kaddle| 3.26.12 @ 8:31PM
Well, thank you, Drunken ! I've been scratchin' ma ass all day tryin' ta figure out how to express that sentiment.
gearjammer| 3.26.12 @ 10:15AM
Bush and company may have had the better plan. Far fewer troops, alot of spec forces , maintain order to decent degree of 50 miles radius of Kabul where 80-90 percent of people live. This looks good now. They democrats kept going on and on of a lack of some big victory. So Obama comes in thinking he's gonna look like some great victorious hero preident-pumps up number of troops-but not to number first asked for and here we are. More troops equals more troop rotation and down time-less chance of being stretched too thin. This president in the worst, the worst. Romney needs to run with an actual military man to shore this mess up and end it. Stormin Norman for Veep.? Probably not right wing enough-won't kick all the gays out of armed forces or some other wobbly trait.
Nite| 3.26.12 @ 7:20PM
I agree with your comments. Obama loathes the Military and he shows it. I would suggest a military man for Romney. Col. Allen West. He is a true patriot and staunch conservative. Plus he could likely deliver Florida. Bush did have the best idea and Obama is the worst President ever.
ED| 3.26.12 @ 10:18AM
Mr. Babbin wrote,
"There is every reason to be confident in the military justice system. It is equal to or better than the civilian criminal justice system in every way, not the least of which is that the members of a court martial panel are drawn from the military not the random civilian population."
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You know not of what you speak.
Justice will be done for this case, but it will NOT be because of any merits to the military justice system -- a system utterly flawed from A to Z.
Dai Alanye | 3.26.12 @ 12:43PM
The military don't pick their jurors from the least aware citizens available, nor are the judges political appointees or elected by uninformed voters. Those are a couple of reasons why military justice is superior
Yarborough| 3.26.12 @ 1:31PM
DA, you seem to think that the military members participating in a military trial are free citizens, free and unshackled. No way. They are wearing the uniform and public, public in the sense that the chain of command knows them and is watching them very closely. They will be told in a case like this, in nonverbal but real ways, how to decide. Same for the judge.
This case will look more professional because it will come down under so much media scrutiny.
Strip all the scrutiny away for most military justice actions. There is no scrutiny. The U.S. public knows nothing of 98% of military justice actions. It is like this in most military actions whether judicial or not: Those participating learn what outcome is best desired by the chain of command and deliver. As it's rather aggravating to one's military career to choose or act against the "will of the command."
A military judge is not a political appointee? Really? He or she somehow got there....how? It is a different appointment process, but it is a 'political' appointment/assignment EVERY time.
If you think that military judge is just relying on military regulations/law and his conscience to make decisions, you're on _________ (fill in your hallucinogenic drug of choice).
You need to pay more attention to rater, senior rater (and senior rater's boss), er, relationships.
Quartermaster| 3.26.12 @ 8:54PM
Junior officers are self selected and enter commissioned ranks on their own if they get through the training program. As I recall, however, all promotions of O-5 and above must be approved by the Senate. O-5 and O-6 are mildly political, but O-7 (one star) and above are completely political. We have several times in history where this fact has been demonstrated by the partisan divide in teh Officer Corps, Korea and the relief of MacArthur is one, Vietnam, the Clinton admin during the attempt to include queers openly in the military, and the BHO chaos we are currently suffering through.
vtwin| 3.26.12 @ 10:21AM
“Nine days after a U.S. soldier allegedly massacred 17 civilians in Afghanistan, a top-level Pentagon health official ordered a widespread, emergency review of the military’s use of a notorius anti-malaria drug called mefloquine…The drug has been implicated in numerous suicides and homicides, including deaths in the U.S. military.” – Huffington Post
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/.....78671.html
Rusky| 3.26.12 @ 10:47AM
I will transmit this Vladimir.
Drunken Sailor| 3.26.12 @ 5:54PM
I call Bullshit. Took this drug for quite awhile and gave it to many of my troops. Yes, it can produce very vivid dreams (not all bad) and even says so on the package inserts. And that's providing someone is making sure they are taking it. Trust me, we had to make troops take it in front of us. but the rest is just B.S.
Besides, cost anaylsis alone for long term deployments means they were most likely taking Doxycycline daily as a prophalasxis and not Meflequine (which is very expensive). Doxy also has the benifit of not having to take for as long before and after deployment. It's cheaper to dose them with Doxy daily and have a slightly longer follow up when back in CONUS.
Do you really believe the tripe you read on Huffpo?
http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/travelers/drugs.html
Afghan in particular
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/travel/ye.....seldyfm298
Stress most likely played a bigger role the the anti-malarial drugs he was taking.
albert constantine jr.| 3.26.12 @ 6:28PM
At the end of Desert Storm I went to the Dover Air Force Dispensary to pick up some chloroquine phosphate anti-malarials, as I planned a trip to SE Asia after active duty. They also gave me a new "experimental" anti-malarial, which I never used.
Consequently, I will need to construct a different defense if and when I have my homicidal rampage.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:56PM
Stress, and the fact that he was brain damaged by the TBI he received.
Teaghan| 3.26.12 @ 10:21AM
This soldier was arrested and indicted within 10 days. What has happened to Maj Hassan at Fort Hood? crickets............"work place violence" BHO
lest we forget| 3.26.12 @ 10:30AM
"What happened at Ft. Hood was a tragedy; but I believe it would be an even greater tragedy if our diversity becomes a casualty here." General George William Casey (U.S. Army Chief of Staff - at Fort Hood ceremony December 2009. (and saying same in other media interviews at that time)
http://spectator.org/archives/.....militaries
Vox populi| 3.26.12 @ 2:48PM
You mean, it will be an even greater tragedy if our diversiy des NOT become a casualty. Those who promoted Hassan should be facing trial, and facing the same penlty as for sleeping on watch in wartime.
Joellen| 3.26.12 @ 10:34AM
My prayers are with all, Sgt Bales, his familiy and those he killed and all their families, These soldiers have been living a life of hell for over 10 years. Can we all agree that they are in a place where there is no normality and yes, they are NOT SUPERMEN and they can and are affected, both mentally and physically. GOD help them all.
Joellen| 3.26.12 @ 10:41AM
Excuse me, ALLEGEDLY he killed, Sgt Bales is still ENTITLED to a FAIR TRAIL.
Dai Alanye | 3.26.12 @ 12:44PM
A fair trial and a public hanging seem desirable.
Joellen| 3.26.12 @ 4:03PM
Public Hanging - why Dai? This man, this man, who sacrificed many years as well as his family, is not given even a remote iota of compassion from the so call tolerant left. I am sure Dai you werent there, EVER, you didnt witness anything, and you have no facts to substantiate your wish for a public hanging. I swear, the only thing that Obama has succeeded in doing is truly bring out the worst of all leftist/communist. I will continue to pray for Sgt Bales, and his family.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:48PM
Again, might I point out that Sgt. Bales had a combat inflicted TRAUMATIC BRAIN INJURY. My area here, folks. The degree of impulsivity and violence TBIs can cause in patients has to be seen to be believed.
Quartermaster| 3.26.12 @ 8:57PM
He probably should have been invalided out. The military has become desperate for experienced men. When we bring the troops home, the military is going to be more hollow than it was during the Carter Chaos.
Nick| 3.27.12 @ 1:18AM
Occam's Tool,
What about the reports that he was drunk and lawyered-up when he returned to base?
What impact do these have on any diminished capacity defense?
To a layman, it seems that SSgt. Bales was acting rationally and knew right from wrong if he asked for a lawyer and invoked his right to remain silent, no?
if you were a vet you'd know| 3.26.12 @ 10:52AM
The article's author wrote, "But it may be a long time before we can unbreak our promises to them (the U.S. military and restore their readiness to fight again."
No, one can never do this. Or undo this.
Fight again?
The military is nothing but constant transition. Yesterday's new recruit or newly minted second lieutenant is today's soldier and tomorrow is processing his papers to terminate service. The best soldiers typically are not there even for 6 or 7 years.
So you cannot make good on a (long) series of broken promises, failed words, empty words. There is no later or "again."
Melvin| 3.26.12 @ 11:05AM
I am going to beat this dead horse as long as I'm breathing. The first thing that should have been done is ask Congress for a Declaration or War. This opens the debate on why the Country should go to war and puts it on a war footing.
By doing so this does not allow Congressmen any wiggle room, they either voted for the resolution or they didn't period.
If the resolution passes, the Country is put on a war footing economically and physiologically.
After a Declaration of War is passed the Draft is immediately instituted.
By starting the Draft this eliminates the service members of making multiple deployments into hostile action.
The Draft also has another effect. It eliminates the disconnect between those who are fighting the war and the American public.
When we invaded Iraq and Afghanistan we did so on the cheap. We did not have adequate manpower and equipment. Much of the gear that was used was leftovers from the Persian Gulf War.
Rolling stock was woefully under-protected. Our service-members relied on American ingenuity by adding Hillbilly armor to the Humvees.
Our men and women were used like military vehicles use them and abuse them till they break.
The DoD recognized the shortfall and instead of bringing in additional forces, it hired military contractors. This in-itself was a very large mistake. These contractors were expensive and not professionally prepared and task organized to work alongside active duty. There was an Us vs Them relationship.
Our military leaders in my opinion were in la la land. Huge disconnect from what was happening on the ground, and orders that were more politically based than operational based.
Many NATO countries were pulled kicking and screaming into the fray. They did not want to in Afghanistan, and were putting in a minimal effort.
The operational decision making process in Afghanistan was based on power point presentations with graphs, and analysis on flat-screen TVs within the headquarters elements.
Many field grade officers were complaining that they were spending more time in Power Point presentations which in their estimation was a complete waste of time. The picture that the Headquarters Element was seeing and what the Field Commanders were seeing were not compatible.
OK, so how does this long and drawn out diatribe equate to Sgt. Bales. He was set up for failure through sensory and emotional overload.
We're in a war we can't win, the Country doesn't support it's armed forces, the leadership is cocooned in an conditioned room filled with TV monitors and Computer screens with civilian analysts telling the Flag rank officers what to do.
We have to coddle the enemy in which we can't call the enemy, all the while the enemy is allowed shoot and attack our armed forces with White House approved impunity.
The human disconnect between those who are fighting the war and those who are at home is wider and deeper than the Grand Canyon. The average American has absolutely no idea the amount of pressure our members of the armed forces are under.
Right now SSgt Bales is getting publicly lynched by the very authority that sent him and his brothers in arms into combat over, and over again.
If anyone that should be standing beside SSgt Bales is the Sec. of Defense Leon Panetta, Sec. of State Hillary Clinton, and the numerous ineffective Generals that were prone to protect their careers than protect those in the field.
canuckistani| 3.26.12 @ 11:47AM
It's all well and good to do a forensic examination of what went wrong in these two theaters. Perhaps we should focus on what went right and what lessons we learned from them.
The pretext for war is ALWAYS messy. The neocons populated every strategic thinktank since Nixon and had a welcome ear in Cheney and Rummy - each of which had their own agenda divergent from the zionist paranoia driving the cause. Junior, and a toady congress are defendants in this folly - as are the American people.
The neocon strategic plan was written the moment Daddy acquiesced to Powell and did not go to Baghdad - rightly fearing the US being dead in the middle of an eons-old blood feud.
But - the big but - is that the collateral benefit of the Iraq adventure was the outing of other islamofascist states as not only sympathetic to Jihadis, but actively protecting their asyla therein. Just enough light shone between the fingers of clenched fists in these countries allowing dissent to wriggle free.
Afghanistan is where empires go to die, and we have no business being there any longer if we cannot deal with the medievalism at the negotiating table. There is no viable domestic interest there seeking to modernize the country. Our ambition should be commercial, beyond marginalizing jihadis.
Bales is a Staff Sergeant, not a freshfaced PFC being thrown into the battle unprepared. Before we condemn the entire enterprise, we should first consider that this act was indeed malicious and needs to be prosecuted fully - lest we undermine the effort further.
DevilDog| 3.26.12 @ 12:13PM
we should first consider that this act was indeed malicious
so in your mind, forget the STRESS of COMBAT!
thats right, use the troops and throw them under the bus.
tell you what, when you have walked in his boots, then you can judge him.
Dai Alanye | 3.26.12 @ 12:53PM
Sure, because the best way to treat combat stress is to kill some women and children.
Stop making excuses for this guy, and think about what it would take for you yourself to execute helpless people. You know you couldn't have done it.
I predict Bales' full record, when it finally comes out, will show more than a few flaws that might indicate some basic tendency toward anti-social behavior. It wasn't simply his combat experience, which many better men have shared.
vtwin| 3.26.12 @ 1:00PM
“STRESS of COMBAT” or maybe he wasn’t breastfeed long enough as a child.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.26.12 @ 2:22PM
What would YOU know about combat stress? You're the schmuck who thinks that My Lai is indicative of all Vietnam vets & those who supported them, so who really gives a rat's tuchus what you think?
Go burn a flag & spit on some soldiers, Fonda boy.
Jive Bomber| 3.26.12 @ 2:25PM
"Stress of combat" is not an excuse, it is a reality.
I find it curious anyone would be ignorant of that fact.
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:51PM
DD, I know you know this, but why do you think all the guys who want the SGT to hang are forgetting that he was brain injured?
Melvin| 3.26.12 @ 12:55PM
That right and he is a human being and not a machine. Sometimes we forget that point.
Harry Nhadzack| 3.26.12 @ 4:44PM
lean a tad left?
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:49PM
I would prefer freeing up forces from Germany, France, England, etc. to serve over in Iraq to make the deployments better than bring back the draft. One thing about a draftee army---a helluva lot more bodybags than with volunteers.
Jopworth| 3.26.12 @ 11:27AM
Mr. Babbin, you write of getting your insights from an army division commander circa 2005, 2006 and perhaps on the same visit with those two colonels.
I'm sure you've attained other insights into OEF/OIF but I hope not with the brass and top political wonks. Plain speak and truth telling is anathema to them.
You surely are not this naive. No general or colonel is so stupid as to believe a conversation with you is off the record. You could offer your left hand as collateral should you break your word, it would not matter.
You seem to be after candor, truth. Well, good. Then you'll only get it from a youngish captain on his second or third deployment -- a captain with no thoughts whatsoever of staying on the active duty rolls. Same for about a 5 - 8 year NCO.
Whenever you see these cheesy photo op scenes of brass or politicians or USO tour Rock n Roll or NFL has beens sitting with the troops, you see them with the under 23 aged crowd of junior enlisted. While that's nice, it is not like Junior at 21 is going to say to U.S. Senator Snort, "Ya know, Senator, I'm glad we've got this time together because I've been meaning to tell you about what's really goin' on in this theater of operations....."
Generals and colonels (admirals and navy captains) have ALL already bought the malarkey and will only give you same. They are careerists -- the antithesis of a soldier.
***I'd bet a year's pay that that army general didn't give a crap about the captain's life. That just made for a nice story to yank your chain.
Purple Lips| 3.26.12 @ 11:31AM
Could it be that our DOD is filled with General McClellan's and Friedenall's? Our military can plan operations in great detail; we have planners who are supply-chain geniuses; we have plenty of officers who have PHD's, advanced staff training, and who can spin with the best of them. But do we have any high level commanders who know how to win wars (or at the very least one single combat operation)? General Mullholland was the last commander with such a distinction.
Old Soldier| 3.26.12 @ 11:51AM
Win what war? What battle? Put an enemy in front of us (without restrictive rules of engagement), and they will quickly be dead bodies or prisoners. When is the last time American troops lost a major battle? (Correct answer: 1950)
This isn't a war, it's morphed into some kind of B.S. nation building police action. That is why morale is rock-bottom right now despite what any General or politician says.
Dai Alanye | 3.26.12 @ 12:55PM
I say the main problem is lawyers making combat decisions.
Purple Lips| 3.26.12 @ 2:28PM
And how many O-6s and above approve of those ROEs? How many think of war in terms of Kinetic Military Actions and other abstractions? How many Four-Stars resigned thier commissions in protest to "orders from above"? Our senior military leadership is part of the problem and not its solution. How many O-6s are now spending thier time immersed in gay recruitment, a gay compliance?
Paul Kotik| 3.26.12 @ 12:01PM
Why is it that whenever a withdrawal from a theatre of operations is discussed, we say "bring the troops home" ?
Home?
This is not a conscript army. This is a professional army. The professional soldier's home is his unit.
I'm all for declaring defeat in Afghanistan and withdrawing, but how about let's keep our professional military doing what they're paid to do, wherever that might be.
Who Knows?| 3.26.12 @ 1:23PM
Within any present situation, we each must make choices.
Indeed, the essence of being alive as Being, in/as the psycho-physical human form, is as a choice maker. To permeate the whole shebang, it is also required to realize that whatever present situation one “finds oneself in” is NOT an accident!
Consciously, or not, we always make our living bed---this is what karma is all about. You are you, because “you” (not who you think you are) wanted to be you.
(I just got up to play some enjoyable music in order to drown out my neighbor’s TV sounds. Choice is.)
On Sundays, I choose to make a bran-grain-raisin-flax seed-sunflower seed-ogara (soy bean solids left over from making soy milk) “cracker”. Depending on the grain, the mixture is more or less sticky.
Yesterday, it was wheat’s turn. As usual, I noticed how sticky it was---the most of all the grains I use. This noticing led the ever-wondering mind to the probable answer to why this is so---wheat has lots more gluten than other grains.
The mind wasn’t satisfied to stop there. Instantly, my expansive education dove deeper, to the knowledge that gluten is a gathering of specific chemical elements. You know, like sugar is C6-H12-O6, or something like that.
Still, no satisfaction!
Why, each element, as we know, is made of other parts.
The mind WAS satisfied, finally, when the search ended with the recollection of what the Big Bang and the billions of years afterwards wrought. Yes, in my mind I ran the Universe backwards.
Each element, ITSELF, has a karmic history, that stems from light. Let there be light.
We are, as human beings, oh so proud (some of us) of our family history. Well, instead of such mere “dumpster diving”, so limited by trivial time periods, why don’t we use our knowledge, openly taught by “higher” education? Accept your entire history, since time began.
Truly, we are simply (actually, quite complexly) stepped down forms of light.
The noticing of ANY change can spark this saving Realization. Change your act by growing UP into this irrefutable truth, about your very own bodily appearance.
A smile.
John786| 3.26.12 @ 1:51PM
Islamophobes out in strength. Is there any article in this site that doesn't centre around Muslim hatred? I'm hoping the US will remove troops ASAP from everywhere: it makes fiscal sense if nothing else. Remember all these wars are to prevent the Palestinian refugees returning home: thats a bit like holding the dam back with your thumb in the hole. The engine for these wars is christain rapturers & Jewish fanatics.
Calvin| 3.26.12 @ 2:30PM
We will stop talking about it when Muslims stop hating.
albert constantine jr.| 3.26.12 @ 6:20PM
John786;
"christain rapturers"
God has commanded that no one who left their home shall have any right to return until you can spell "Christian" correctly each time that you post.
John786| 3.26.12 @ 9:05PM
Put a sock in it mate. You try typing on a phone with a fist for a thumb.
albert constantine jr.| 3.26.12 @ 9:40PM
Tough losing digits making those IEDs...
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:53PM
Well, when you guys stop celebrating the murderers of 14 month olds and 3 year olds (both little girls), MAY BE YOU'LL FIND MORE LOVE, jOHN786.
John786| 3.26.12 @ 8:48PM
"you guys".... Try once in your life to see the truth. Killing the poor afghans serves no one. War serves no one. Some are unfortunately destined to live life in darkness.
Mike 3/505| 3.26.12 @ 1:59PM
"One of them said, "If you want to break this army, break your word to it." We promised our troops a mission they could accomplish, a war they could win and our comprehensive support. We've broken those promises in Iraq and Afghanistan."
Speaking of broken promises...How about DOD proposing "means testing" to determine how much Military Retirees have to copay for their TRICARE benefit. You know...that benefit that was promised as a part of the compensation for a career of faithful service? "Means Testing?!" That's something you do for charity, not an EARNED benefit...Yep...another promise broken.
Jay Stevens| 3.26.12 @ 6:33PM
You have a short memory. TRICARE is the result of a broken promise. Look at what they promised us 40 years ago: free medical care after 20 years of honorable service.
Mike 3/505| 3.26.12 @ 6:50PM
Jay,
You are correct. I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. The thing that starches my shorts is not only and earned benefit being equated to charity, but it is being shortchanged to FUND charity. Essentially, we are stealing from troops in order to give a benefit to moochers.
Regards,
Mike
Drunken Sailor| 3.26.12 @ 7:13PM
Lets not forget the dental care. I saw that dissapear before I even retired. Active duty members have to pay dental insurance for their dependents as they usually can't be seen on bases anymore. Means testing Tricare is just another kick in the crotch. They have already lowered the % you earn in retirement pay to incoming troops.
Let's review boys and girls. Spend 20 years of your life serving Uncle Sam and you get teh following.
Monthly retirement check of 35% of your highest basic pay.
No Dental
Increased premiums for Tricare (subject to more increases)
But hey, you get to shop at the PX still.
And they wonder why keeping career military is getting more difficult. Go figure.
cicero| 3.26.12 @ 3:04PM
The problem with both of these operations was that we never determined that we were at war with either the Afghan or the Iraqi people, or state. We went into Afghanistan because the Taliban, then controlling that country, had allowed Al-Quaida to use it as a base from which to attack the U.S. We went into Iraq because we determined (rightly or wrongly) that Saddam Hussien was developing weapons of mass destruction, and that he had violated U.N. sanctions. At no time were we talking about going to war with either countrys' people..
It would have made sense to go in to Afghanistan, drive the Taliban out, and go into Iraq and throw Sadam and his henchmen out. We did that. We would have accomplishsedd our mission, and had out troops home in a matter of weeks in both operations. It was our adopting of the silly notion that we could turn either state into a Jeffersonian democracy that has left us where we are. Given the history and religion of the people of both countries, that is "mission impossible". At no time was it even contemplated the the U.S. and its allies would adopt the same rules of engagement that were adopted in the two world wars, or Korea.
Thom| 3.26.12 @ 6:40PM
The thrust of this I agree with but…
Had we withdrawn after a “few weeks” in Iraq the place would have falling into a very brutal civil war lasting for some time and if the wrong side won we would have to go back eventually anyway. Same for Afghanistan. After merely chasing out the Taliban, not destroying it in place we would have accomplished nothing as they outnumbered the Northern Alliance 3:1 which means there are three supporter of the Taliban for every one that does not. I’m for destroying the enemy period. In Iraq that would have been complicated by the fact that most of the Iraqi forces did not fight us in 2001 and simply went away to surface in an insurgency later. A decade later in Afghanistan we still don’t know who we can trust (today) which maybe makes the point that you and some have tried to make in an offhand way. The people we’ve tried to help here need to be given a clear choice and consequence for allowing their country to become home base to forces at war with us either through direct action or via proxy. We don’t seem to want to do that but continue to insist on “winning their hearts and minds” via our USD.
seth | 3.26.12 @ 3:32PM
All you big government, big war "conservatives" should get a clue and read what the founding fathers felt about entanglement in foreign affairs and wars.
I for one am tired of sending trillions of dollars and thousands of young Americans to die in support of these Christian killing Sharia law loving governments in Iraq and Afghanistan. only Ron Paul has the balls to stand up to the neo-cons and tell the truth..........
Harry Nhadzack| 3.26.12 @ 4:32PM
Had we decimated opposing forces, as we are capable, not care about civilian lose of life, sadly, we did, and remember that to the victor go the spoils, we wouldn'tbe paying around $5 for gas now.
Also, Iran wouldn't be talking so much shit, if we OWNED Iraq
Sadly, owned politicians had to pay some people off
Occam's Tool| 3.26.12 @ 7:59PM
Harry:
correct---we should have taken their flinkin' oil. We should have neutralized Iraq and Afghanistan, with massive civilian casualties to teach the others.
shoebox57| 3.26.12 @ 5:28PM
Go get your diaper changed! It is a Barak Obama who has made a mess of Iraq and Afghanistan. I have it on very good authority that the U.S. military is being gutted by Panetta at the behest of Obama. Moral is poor because of a lack of clarity and leadership. I agree it is time to end these foolish attempts at negotiating with rogue states. Better to obliterate them and leave them as an example of what happens when foolish men try to inflict feudal systems, such as sharia on the world.
Jeamar| 3.26.12 @ 5:13PM
It's time to bring our service members home. Doesn't matter on whom the historical reasons for them being there belongs. Especially in Afghanistan it is difficult to see that we have any "vital" interest there. As for transplanting a republic/democracy in Islamic countries, it is entirely against their 7th century (That's giving them the benefit of the doubt.) mind set and the illiteracy of their soldiers we are supposedly training into a modern military/police service.
Thom| 3.26.12 @ 6:20PM
Perhaps I shouldn't bring this up ....
Ever since about the year of my birth in 1952 people in high places both in and outside the Pentagon and in and out of uniform have been trying to redefine "war" into a sporting event of sorts to hide the political reality that our upper crust of the "smartest and brightest" don't have the brains or stomach for conducting a "war" with the goal of "winning" in terms that 5000 years of military science and art have pretty much honed to a fine point.
Truman's failures in Korea became his "containment" strategy that failed to even a larger degree in Vietnam for LBJ just before my 18th birthday. We probably should be thankful the Soviets didn't call his bluff in '48. Our 1991 Gulf live fire exercise was a tech book application of the LandAir 2000 battle plan and fifty years of classic maneuver warfare refinement in 3D against a foe who practiced what the Soviets had taught them and for what we had trained to defeat. Results speak for themselves if you overlook we let the essence of the SS get away and keep the regime going another 12 years. If Iraq had been taken down in 1991 with the coalition and force structure and mix we had then what followed in 2003 would not have been necessary and a valuable lesson might have been served to would be aggressors but alas, we played nice in 1991 ..... and now have a reputation as a "quitter" when we suffer causalities approaching D-¬Day spread over a decade ..... Our enemies have our number pretty well dialed in. About half of one percent serve in our military today and a tiny fraction of that actually are engaged in this fight at any one time. The Marines got it pretty much right when they say “Marines go to war; everyone else goes to the Mall…”
I've made the point several times we don't have a large enough force pool (capacity) to cover (capabilities) all the threats we need to. It seems there are those in the Pentagon and likewise elsewhere in Think Tanks that keep coming up with new “theories” and inventing scenarios we might have to deal with while conveniently overlooking the continuous failures of these new age "theories" to actually resolve anything militarily. Who would have thought an actual combat ground force smaller than Patton's Third Army could work the miracles required in countries as large and disjointed as Iraq and Afghanistan? Ten years after my birth Cops, normally two walked the beat where I lived and played and you could hear an argument for a couple blocks. Today you'd be lucky to see a single Cop car with the latest technology drive by in an hour during the darkest of nights and said Cop in environmentally controlled and sound proof vehicle wouldn't hear a shootout one block away under most circumstances. All our push button technology couldn't surround, cut off and destroy a 45,000 man ragtag Taliban force in 2001 why? In over ten years of fighting, the Taliban and AQ have lost an estimated 38,000+ while the allies, mostly the Afghans have lost over 13,000. Take away Nato's losses and the Afghans fighting the Taliban are in deep do-do when we leave. Given the birth rate in that part of the world, the Taliban have reconstituted themselves a couple times over in the 11 years since 2001. The VC and NVA lost better than 10 to 1 against US and ARVN in a protracted defensive war of attrition. They won Vietnam; they own the ground and people there unless you see war as a "sporting event" and look only at the body count score ....
The current King has replicated every bonehead strategy of LBJ in Afghanistan with predictable results. The enlisted career professionals have had enough "theory" sh. t and playing nursemaid and COP. Someone had better get a clue here and not just about our "sporting event" wars. Someday this nation is going to need a military that isn’t focused on homosexual/female sensitivities and special “needs”, trying to power the US military off windmills and solar cells. We might have to actually win one someday and it might take more than one third of one half of one percent of the population to do that.
Fist of the Fleet| 3.26.12 @ 10:41PM
Wow...
JP| 3.27.12 @ 10:28AM
I think you totally misunderstood the 2001-02 operation in Afghanistan. Initially, our spec ops were there only to provide direct air support to the Northern Alliance (as it was then called). Our mission templete called for only a few hundred NCOs on the ground -not 45,000 as you claim. The soldier's of the Northern Alliance were pegged to do all of the heavy lifting. Our goal, at least initially, was the destruction of both the Taliban and Al Qaida, and not the occupation of Afghanistan. General Holland and his staff drew up plans to employ only the Green Beret, USAF special ops, and some Navy and Air Force air assets (operating out of Uzbeckistan). Pakistan was also pegged to be an intel gathering and logistics base -nothing more.
It was only after the resounding success of General Holland's operation did CENTCOM (General Franks) demand involvement. And mind you, the State Department also demanded a piece of the action. This was mission creep on steroids. By late January we had Rangers, Marines, the 82nd Airborne and a whole assortment of units running around the country. Toro Bora was a CENTCOM thing, as the late Robin Moore wrote. President Bush, in his elation (the Germans called it siegeuphoria, or victory euphoria) allowed the combat operations to grow in shape, size, and empasis. What was initially an operation of retribution turned into nation-building. And the minute things went wrong, the political leadershop of both the State Dept and DOD began to turn against Bush and Rumsfeld. The very same people who mucked things up in Afghanistan planned and executed the invasion of Iraq.
sirbourbon| 3.26.12 @ 9:33PM
What ever happened to Jesus and "blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God?"
Copping a plea of insanity is the SOP for gunmen after they get caught and they come down off their "murder high."
If this soldier is sane enough to find a lawyer to save his life from a death needle he is not that insane to pay for his crime. However,the real insanity is way above him in Washington and New York City . In lofty, but loser towers of insanity called, "think tanks."
The war lovers that create our insane foreign policy sit back and laugh since they are seldom brought before tribunals to answer for their criminal foreign policy. In America it's a policy that is designed to create "blowback" from al Qaeda. Blowback means more war and more controls on the homefront until our country is indistinguishable from the "enemy" our policy makers created with US tax dollars and diplomatic intrigue.
http://www.infowars.com/dhs-ra.....ighteners/
POST American| 3.27.12 @ 1:30AM
-----And you there in uniform, take
mighty good care NOT to accept ANY
injections beyond the standard ones.
The weaponization of shots for 'early
permanent retirement w/o benny-fits'
---is NO JOKE.
Further, the services have NO right
to force shots on service men---EVER.
--------------------IT'S THE LAW-----------------------
-----The REAL LAW. . .
Martin Owens| 3.27.12 @ 2:48AM
Hello? anybody talking about SSgt Bales? His FOURTH consecutive combat tour? More than 1000 days on the line? While his stateside life crumbles as he loses his house? [ we work our servicemen like rented mules, and pay them like illegal busboys].
As far as I'm concerned, Bales is a victim of the system. They pushed him until he snapped, and then blamed him for snapping. Punished? He should be helped, if we're still in the business of actually helping the people who serve our interests.
sirbourbon| 3.28.12 @ 5:35PM
We don't know the details as to why he "snapped." Perhaps even during the trial we may never know if he was really the only shooter. There were reports that there were a team of hitmen that went into the village. How true those reports are remain to be seen.
The insanity is the foreign policy. This ludicrous foreign policy has been SOP since the end of WWII and our joining the UN. The UN basically controls when and where US soldiers will be sent.
UN policy since Korea has never allowed for any decisive victory against communism. The only exception was Grenada. We should have gone into Cuba but that is probably all Reagan's CFR advisors allowed him to do- rescue the US citizens.
Korea, Vietnam, Iraq I and Iraq II, Afghanistan have been BS wars designed by the same CFR think tankers to wear down our troops and bankrupt our treasury.
It appears that the "end run around our national sovereignty, eroding it piece by piece," as outlined in the CFR Journal Foreign Affairs written by a CFR board member and former ambassador to Italy, Richard N. Gardner, is working according to CFR guidelines. Gardner called his CFR published article The Hard Road to World Order. It is worth the read!
If America ever hopes to rescue our nation from CFR losers and their anti-American sovereignty foreign policy, we need to withdraw from the UN, World Bank, IMF and WTO and NATO.
Rich Fisher| 3.27.12 @ 11:11AM
The problem with this war and with Iraq is the same one we had in Vietnam. We let the press and the protesters and the politicians decide how we will fight. That will always be a losing proposition. As a Vietnam Vet-Marines-we were posted on guard duty around the ammo dump on our base. The last instruction we were given-for a 4 hour stint that started at midnight-was that we could not chamber a round in our M-16 and that we could not shoot without permission from the Sgt of the Guard. Yeah, right. You could hear the rounds being chambered up and down the line as the Sgt of the Guard left the area after posting us. War is hell and needs to be fought by the military without input from the press or anyone else. Give us an objective but don't tell us how to obtain it. Give us the tools, get the hell out of the way and we will win every time. I was in Vietnam in '69 when Richard Nixon decided to bomb the North back to the stone age. As part of an F-4 Marine Fighter/Attack squadron we worked around the clock, hot refueling planes and hot loading bombs. We had the North ready to quit and then the press and politicians got involved. The rest is history. We have learned nothing since. We have great military leaders and we need to give them a mission and let them do it. The Sgt Bales of the military are a direct result of the interference by the politicians and the press and they should shoulder their share of the blame.
Kim Smith| 5.25.12 @ 7:09AM
An interesting article, but there is still a underlying suggestion that America should fight wars. As a country it still has a Cowboys and Indians approach to foreign policy. And unlike the British who left benefits, (the railway in India for example) we now see countries on their knees after American invasion. Very frighting to much power in such a relatively young country. I do not wish to appear rude, but maybe America could benefit more from listening to the Old World countries as opposed to riding headlong into war.