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Loose Canons
Powerless in Retreat
After ten plus years we’re not able to shape Afghanistan’s future in any way we’d like.
(Page 2 of 2)
Given these stubborn facts, to say that we are going to ensure Afghanistan is democratic, that it won’t again be ruled by the Taliban and be a hatching-ground for terror, that it will be stable in any other sense or that we can build some “firewall” around it to keep its evils inside, is, plainly, fraudulent. Afghanistan will, soon, be again what it was before 9/11, or worse. And there isn’t a bloody thing we can do to prevent that from happening.
I CANNOT LET PASS last week’s event in which U.S. Marines in Afghanistan were ordered to disarm and attend a speech by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta. Showing this distrust of some of our very best dishonored every man and woman who has ever worn the eagle, globe and anchor.
Why were Panetta and his minions so afraid?
Historical precedent condemns Panetta’s action. In August 1588, facing the Armada and Spanish invasion, Queen Elizabeth went to Tilbury to rally her troops. Some of her lords insisted that she not walk among the armed men, fearing for her safety. She knew better. In her speech, Elizabeth said:
We have been persuaded by some that are careful of our safety, to take heed how we commit ourselves to armed multitudes, for fear of treachery; but I assure you I do not desire to live to distrust my faithful and loving people. Let tyrants fear, I have always so behaved myself that, under God, I have placed my chiefest strength and safeguard in the loyal hearts and good-will of my subjects; and therefore I am come amongst you, as you see, at this time, not for my recreation and disport, but being resolved, in the midst and heat of the battle, to live and die amongst you all; to lay down for my God, and for my kingdom, and my people, my honour and my blood, even in the dust.
If only Elizabeth’s spirit lived within some of our uniformed and civilian leaders. There is no safer place — for any American — than to be surrounded by armed Marines. May Heaven condemn those who dishonor them.
About the Author
Jed Babbin served as a Deputy Undersecretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush. He is the author of several bestselling books including Inside the Asylum and In the Words of Our Enemies. You can follow him on Twitter @jedbabbin.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (107) | Leave a comment
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SGT Baker (native Coloradoan)| 3.19.12 @ 6:25AM
That was an insult to all of us serving in the Armed Forces.
Jack in Wi.| 3.19.12 @ 7:39AM
Mr. Babbin with all due respect. Why did we go in and stay in Afgnaistan for the last 10 years? Did we learn nothing from the Soviets? When the Afgani's were kicking the Soviets out they were alled freedom fighters. Now they are kicking our butts they are terrorists. The fact of the matter is that both the Soviets and us should have left Aganistan alone. If Bin Laden was gulity of anything he should have been the focus and not nation building. It would have been a lot simpler to use a letter of Marque and Reprisal against him then to terrorize the whole Afgani people with some nonsense called nation building. We should never have gone in to either Iraq or Afganistsan. We should stay the hell out of Iran. Have we learned nothing. Bring the troops home now, the faster the better.Ttoo much blood has been shed already. Let the world run and take care of itself. We have enough trouble keeping this country a free.
Mac Jehoff| 3.19.12 @ 7:59AM
Are you mainlining cheese now Jack? Go have another hit fromage brian.
David W| 3.19.12 @ 8:25AM
We went in to kick the butts of those who provided safe harbor for "those" responsible for 9/11 (not all of those apparently - the Saudis were left alone). The mistake was in staying, thinking that we could bring a better life to people who have no concept of liberty, of freedom, of true honor, or of civilization. That is the mistake liberals and compassionate conservatives make - that humans are inherently good, all you have to do is "show them the way" and they will follow gladly.
Afghans as well as Pakistanis are stuck in the middle ages (if not earlier). They are basically uncivilized people (with some exceptions) who are corrupt and would rather suffer privation and violence than do anything to make their lives better (thanks the the curse of Mohammed).
vtwin| 3.19.12 @ 1:16PM
As winter turns to spring the fighting season begins for the Afghan. Fueled by more atrocities committed on his land by his enemies he will fight as his father before him to rid his nation of foreign armies. For a warrior there is no higher honor.
One if by land...| 3.19.12 @ 1:43PM
What do you know about being a warrior?
JmsA| 3.19.12 @ 1:52PM
He may not be a warrior, One if by land, but he's certainly a belly crawling sycophant and lackey lover of all that is tyrannical.
One if by land...| 3.19.12 @ 6:28PM
Silly me.
Quartermaster| 3.19.12 @ 8:41PM
You are forgiven my child. Go and feed trolls no more.
Vern Crisler| 3.19.12 @ 2:02PM
Good points David. The Afghans, with their law executing converts to Christianity, don't deserve anything from America. However, we did have a pragmatic interest in keeping terrorists on the run, so there was some rationale for staying for a while.
We keep hearing that we have to stay to train the Afghan army. How many years does it take to train an army? If they can't get the job done in 6 months, might as well not even try.
It's time to get out. If we need to take care of terrorists, we can do so with infiltrators and predators. It's time to stop spilling American blood for these ungrateful, fanatical, poor excuses for human beings.
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 1:12AM
Jack:
Your buddies in France killed some Jewish kids and a rabbi.They belong, of course, to the Religion of Peace.
golden oldie| 3.21.12 @ 10:41AM
Well said. I suspect you might know something about war.
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 10:45PM
Jack and Clint, the killer in France of the three Jewish kids and the rabbi was a ...wait for it...Muslim jihadist! Yes, another one of your wonderful people whose culture you so adore.
Get bent, Jack and Clint. Two peas in a scumbag pod.
Zombie Reagan| 3.19.12 @ 9:59AM
Why is the truth an insult? Facts are facts. You cannot force our civilization down the throats of a land of stone age tribes that not only doesn't want it, but thinks it evil. That's the lesson here.
Zombie Reagan| 3.20.12 @ 2:48PM
"The neocons never fought the left with anything more than elegant reprimand. If they saw serious criticism in return, they issued charges of anti-Semitism. He also said that if "the point is to wipe out Israel's enemies," such as in the Iraq invasion, "the [neocon] Likudniks don't care about American casualties very much." Sam Francis
Mike Rogers | 3.19.12 @ 6:26AM
Panetta needs to be hung and his advisers fired.
What a miserable little man!
Only enemies and communists should fear our troops: Et tu, Leon?
Mike Rogers | 3.19.12 @ 6:32AM
So I repeat myself - blast our way our, now.
Carrier battle group off the coast of Pakistan.
Fly out who/what we can.
Destroy/ booby-trap any non-removable assets.
Claim and use our transport route though Pakistan, declaring a DMZ around the route and killing all that moves within that zone.
Let the Taliban and jihadis feel the heat one more time!
Anything worse than small arms fire will be answered by cruise missiles or worse from the battle group.
Then cut off all aid to the region and let them know that we won't be back, but our missiles and drones will be ready in case of trouble.
The original mission was punishment, and clearly they don't want any help in building a stable nation. So be it!
henry| 3.19.12 @ 6:57AM
Does any of this come as a surprise? Are we really that stupid?
LiveFreeOrDie| 3.19.12 @ 11:42AM
Apparently, yes!
"Half of Americans would like to see Congress investigate Barack Obama’s eligibility for the presidency and nearly that many believe the definition of the constitutional term “natural born citizen” means both parents must be U.S. citizens, according to a new scientific poll.
“There’s no marginalizing those who want this matter investigated by Congress,” said Fritz Wenzel of Wenzel Strategies, who conducted the WND/Wenzel Poll telephone survey June 16-19. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.85 points.
“Even among Democrats, more than one in four – 28 percent – said they now want an inquiry, as do 43 percent of independents and 77 percent of Republicans."
Yet the blackout continues at the Spectator. Nothing to see here, move along. We must win the next election constitution be damned.
Gr0w1er601| 3.19.12 @ 1:50PM
I know EXACTLY where my original birth certificate is. It wasn't at all hard to obtain a certified copy. Why can't Oblama do that? One HAS to wonder...
LiveFreeOrDie| 3.19.12 @ 5:11PM
"One HAS to wonder..."
Uh-huh, exactly. Yet, nada. Zip. Bupkis. This site has the overwhelming stench of partisanship. Spectator continues to prove itself only to be republican, not conservative.
Soljerblue| 3.20.12 @ 1:07AM
Anyone with some historical knowledge of history in that part of the world shouldn't be surprised. Foreign armies in Afghanistan have been used up, hacked up, and/or worn out since Alexander the Great. All came as superior forces -- the Greeks & Macedonians, the British, the Russians, and now the United States. We'll be just the latest in that historic advance/retreat. We should have bailed when we took down the Taliban, and left with the warning that we'd be back if necessary. Instead, we stayed with some half-assed liberal idea that we could change history. Nation-building is a fool's errand, especially in a place and with a people who couldn't care less.
Mike Hawk| 3.19.12 @ 7:00AM
Afghanistan exists in the 10th century and isn't about to change. Their tribal culture is ingrained. Best now to leave it to itself and confine it to there. The lives of our Marines are now more valuble. As for the detestable Panetta and the Obozo hacks, they can be dealt with in Nov. THeir dishonoring of our country continues.
John786| 3.19.12 @ 7:45AM
The sky is blue, the sun rises in the east....: Afghans can not be subdued a lesson from every conquering army in the last 3 thousand years. More facts tomorrow. As long as the Talibs don't support terrorism let them be.
Soljerblue| 3.20.12 @ 1:09AM
a-men!!
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 1:14AM
Then don't conquer them. Kill them, instead.
Dr. X| 3.19.12 @ 7:55AM
Afghanistan is a clusterf__k because of the civilian control of the military. The civilians who run this war have spent their lives in faculty lounges in open-toed sandals reading about Islam in books rather than actually experiencing firsthand the savages who inhabit the Muslim world.
Frankly we should have burned ALL the Korans in that country and all the mosques too, and we should have nuked the Grand Mosque in Mecca on 9/12/01. We didn't because we're a nation of pussies.
Even worse the civilian leadership has a bad case of Stockholm Syndrome, in which they empathize with the enemy more than with the U.S. or the troops.
It is a disgrace that we have been in combat for over a decade with primitive savages who have no armor, no air force, no navy, no satellites, no uniforms -- no nothing -- and we're losing. This is not the fault of the military, it is the fault of the politically correct civilians who cannot stomach the idea that the purpose of war is to kill so many of the bastards they beg you to stop. There's a technical term for this -- it's called "surrender."
Lmajito| 3.19.12 @ 8:36AM
Gee somebody besides me finally stated the obvious...america is a land filled with pussies, many of them stupid ignorant moronic idiots that are living on the sacrifices made by many in the last centuries.
How else this land accepts to be led by the current political establishment, filled with whores sold to the globalists ? Think november is going to change anything?
The pussy mitt is going to be steamrolled by the chi town thugs and the african will see another term to finish what he didn't in the first.
And the wussies still be whinning about how bad things are but willing to do nothing else
Dick Nome| 3.19.12 @ 9:00AM
We are not a land of pussies. However a substantial portion of the populace are and elected a bunch of them to govern...for now.
Zombie Reagan| 3.19.12 @ 10:03AM
A potty-mouthed war-mongering racist chickenhawk. How is the weather down there in your pineywood Mississippi trailer park?
Con Chef (NB) | 3.19.12 @ 10:42AM
A touchy-feely willing dhimmi isolationist who thinks Islam will leave US alone if we leave THEM alone.
Is it nice & cool in the sand pile where you stick your head?
Zombie Reagan| 3.19.12 @ 10:48AM
Think about it. They did leave us alone until we installed our puppet the Shah of Iran in power. Since then we haven't stopped meddling over there. If you had a brain you could make the connection.
Dr. X| 3.19.12 @ 10:57AM
Your ignorance is astounding. You can parrot the Democratic Party line all you want that it's all America's fault, but unfortunately that fails to explain why Muslim savages hate India, have engaged in terrorist acts in the Philippines and Thailand, and Indonesia, not to mention Spain, Russia, the UK, and against Israel, which was a creation of your beloved United Nations.
The Shah of Iran was probably the best thing that ever happened to that God-forsaken country. That being said, the Shah had NOTHING to do with 9/11. How many of the 9/11 hijackers were Iranians or Shiites, Slick? NONE.
The reason why this country is finished is because knee-jerk liberals like you populate it and you're too weak and stupid to kill the people who would cut your throat on the spot if given a chance.
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 1:14AM
The Shah was a good man, and Carter was a gutless pussy.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.19.12 @ 11:40AM
Never heard of the Barbary Pirates, huh? Tell me, willing dhimmi, when has Islam EVER "peacefully" co-existed with ANYONE? Are you THAT historically ignorant? Don't answer that. I already know the answer.
Go hug a sucide bomber, idiot.
W| 3.19.12 @ 12:53PM
Zombie Carter
Iran would be better off with the Shah. He attempted to modernize the country. The problem was your namesake, Zombie Carter, who did not support the Shah when needed and allowed Khomeni to take power. Then Zombie Carter allowed Khomeni to take Amereican hostages without retaliation. But you knew these facts and do not understand what these facts mean.
Still upset Reagan beat Carter and Mondale?
Gr0w1er601| 3.19.12 @ 1:55PM
Well, Mr. Peanut-head DID authorize the Iran hostage (cluster-f*ck) 'rescue' operation. We all know how well THAT one turned out!
markenoff| 3.19.12 @ 3:28PM
Your historic ignorance is breathtaking. The last Shah of Iran, Mohammed Reza Shah Pahlavi came to power in 1941 when his pro-Nazi father was removed from power by the British and Russians. The US had nothing to do with it.
Quartermaster| 3.19.12 @ 8:48PM
Amrkenoff, you're forgetting the short time during which he had been deposed in the early 50s. The CIA aided a counter-coup against Mossedegh to re-install Pahlavi. They remembered that and Khomeni ended up using the hatreds stirred to help him rise and overthrow Pahlavi.
Pahlavi was a fool to let Khomeini live, but that's water under the bridge, and we are left with the ashes caused by the incompetence of the CIA and the hatreds they have stirred.
Dr. X| 3.19.12 @ 12:08PM
How bigoted of you to ASSUME that I am from Mississippi -- as if there's something wrong with that. Actually I am from New York the state where the Muslim savaged murdered 3,000 people. How's that, you snarky, condescending creep?
BTW as far as "racism" is concerned, Mississippi has the largest percentage of blacks of any state -- why don't YOU move there if you're so hell-bent for "diversity" and "multiculturalism"?
Con Chef (NB) | 3.19.12 @ 1:09PM
I must concur. Having grown up in Memphis, 15 minutes from the MS line, I've known trailer park bumpkins named Bubba with more sense than Zombie boy.
One if by land...| 3.19.12 @ 1:53PM
Funny how the Zombie didn't defend himself. Ohhh those pesky facts! Islam is NOT a religion! A system of government, legal system, banking and a few others, but NOT a religion. They have not, and will not, "co-exist" with anyone, period! Read the Kuran, it is actually interesting, but not a peaceful book by any means. We should have leveled Afghan. and left. They want to live in caves and mud huts anyway so blasting it into a flat rock field would have been the ideal solution.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.19.12 @ 3:04PM
Read the Koran as a college freshman in 1997. I knew then that is was FAAAAAR from "The Religion of Peace" it portrays itself to be. Its more "The Religion of Pieces."
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 10:47PM
Con, I've known rutabagas with more sense than Zombie boy. Why do you think he hungers for braiiiiiiiiins?
SFC_Swede| 3.19.12 @ 4:58PM
Actually he is right...far too many limp wristed nanny state'ers, whom pee themselves at the sight of a firearm, and want every single discomfort or politically correct 'offending thing banned, controlled, regulated, and shut down.
Soljerblue| 3.20.12 @ 1:12AM
typical Alynskyite, Code Pink, valueless, apparatchik idiot. The weather down here, shyte-4-brains, is about like it is in whatever liberal-governed, crap ghetto blue state nirvana you live in up north. Capice?
Purple Lips| 3.19.12 @ 7:58AM
Ten years ago I could have told Rumsfeld and Colin Powell (as well as King George) that we will never win the hearts and minds of Afghanis. Better to hunt down and destroy the Taliban and AQ in Afghanistan and Pakistan and then leave that miserable land.
But then again, I hold no degrees, I have no credentials. Advanced degrees and credentials are two prerequisites to work in the Beltway. We've enjoyed the ministrations of highly degreed experts in our losses in Korea, Vietnamn, and the post-911 wars.
macwell| 3.19.12 @ 5:42PM
But then again, I hold no degrees, I have no credentials. Advanced degrees and credentials are two prerequisites to work in the Beltway.
There, my friend Purple Lips, is the problem in a nutshell.
We the people have been conned into believing that one must have little letters after one's name if one is to be taken seriously.
All of this nonsense has been allowed to go on because we have a den of lawyers and thieves we jokingly refer to as Congress.
Congress was never meant to be a career.
Congress was never meant to be run by all lawyers.
These people treat their jobs as though America, The Constitution, The Bill of Rights, etc. was one big tort. They sit around and contemplate the zen of the Constitution while they sip brandy. They trade their votes like baseball cards. They lie to us, steal from us, and make fools of us daily.
We the people MUST begin to remove all career politicians from Congress. We must help our NEW President and give him/her a Congress of the people, by the people, and for the people.
Louis Jenkins| 3.19.12 @ 8:16AM
Panetta asked that the Marines be dis-armed. It's not that he distrusts them, it's that he doesn't trust them. After the Sgt. shot, killed, and burned 17 Afganhis, I guess Panetta is a bit on the gun shy side of life. But if someone had wanted his head it was their's to have. To make the Americans equal with the Afganhis is a lie, Panetta was scared.
Quartermaster| 3.19.12 @ 8:50PM
Nah. Panetta is just another left wing cowardly hack.
room screen divider | 3.19.12 @ 8:54AM
We have learned nothing from the past. We are losing there, i could not understand that why we are still there why don’t we leave Afghanistan
vtwin| 3.19.12 @ 1:46PM
It is easier for the ruling class to sacrifice more American lives than to accept defeat.
W| 3.19.12 @ 10:09PM
Obama has doubled the war in Afghan. He is the ruling class now. Why is he sacrificing American lives since 2008?
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 10:48PM
I don't want to accept defeat, or keep our soldiers there. A parking lot is fine with me. Rubble don't cause trouble.
THKrupp| 3.19.12 @ 9:17AM
To be losing means that there was/is something to be won. When we started the war the objectives were not clearly defined. It was basically to get Osama bin Ladin. We deviated from that into nation building. What should have been basically a law enforcement operation turned into a kind of war but not war. There is not a military solution to Afganistan. We cannot force people to be like us.
Sandra| 3.19.12 @ 9:26AM
Some thoughts that came to mind while reading Mr. Babbin's article
The strong horse has NO rider, we are a weak nation, ready for plunder.
As posted before, we ought have gone in, striked and got out. Nation building is NOT in the description of a military force.
All those lives lost, all those families grieving, all those that lost some of themselves... and not just American lives either. In vain it appears, all in vain.
If we conquer we need to act like conquers, not grovel, and not tie our own forces' hands. (ROE)
Time to dig the bomb shelters.
Drake| 3.19.12 @ 10:03AM
Our leaders (not our warriors) have become too water-hearted to conduct a punitive raid, then leave.
cicero| 3.19.12 @ 9:42AM
About a century ago, Kipling advised Britain to surrender "the white man's burden", and let people decide for themselves how they wanted to live. The Afghans, Pakistanis, and all other Muslim states have decided that the 12th century is more to their likeings than the 21st. The fact that some of them have resources that they can sell for money with which to buy western weapons notwithstanding. We have accomplished our original intent - the Taliban was routed, and BinLaden is no more. Saddam is dead. Time to declare victory and come home. There is no chance to bring the Muslim world into the 21st century, because it is their stated intention to bring the rest of the world back into the 12th. I don't see much room for compromise.
Let the Chinese try to deal with the Pakistanis and lit the Indians deal with the Afghans. That will keep them busy for a long time. Drill and exploit our own oil, and bring the price of a barrel of the black sstuff down to around $40.00. That will cause the sheiks to spend all of their time staving off assination attempts and revolutions from below. They will have to spend all of their reduced income bribing their own people instead of spreading their doctrine of hatred around the globe. Once the funds dry up, they won't even be able to support their crazies that have been planted in the Western world.
Lesser Weevil| 3.19.12 @ 12:35PM
The White Man's Burden was actually directed at the US during an earlier episode of nation-building in the Philippines. And he wasn't saying to surrender, just that it would be an endless, thankless job with very limited success. A more pertinent poem might be The Young British soldier:
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 10:49PM
Yes, but that was an age when the most powerful Western weapon on land was the "screw gun." Now we have the "Nuclear cannon!"
golden oldie| 3.21.12 @ 10:48AM
Cicero, good thoughts you have.
Dick Nome| 3.19.12 @ 10:58AM
That dejected on on that Marine shows the face of how our military feels about the lack of leadership at the top. They are willing to do what it takes as long as they know they have the support. This administration obviously FAILS in that department and his face exhibits the result.
Old Soldier| 3.19.12 @ 1:14PM
That is the face of a young Marine bored out of his mind by the fat civilian spewing BS. He's thinking how long it will be until he sees a woman again.
Bill Kelly| 3.19.12 @ 11:02AM
The Commandant of the Marine Corps should be asking the Secretary of Defense for his resignation, or, in turn, the Joint Chiefs should turn in theirs.
If you have no faith in those who take up arms in defense of their country, you have no business leading them.
Ed| 3.19.12 @ 2:09PM
Amen, but that's not the military leadership class today. Got a policy that will kill my soldiers and accomplish nothing-well, I can't do anything to risk my pension, so sorry guys.
cicero| 3.19.12 @ 11:29AM
You will see no resignations from the brass. They are too busy staring at the accumulating values of their pensions. If they had any sense of honor, or duty to c ountry and their underlings, they would walk out en masse. Don't hold your breathe.
SFC_Swede| 3.19.12 @ 5:27PM
That and padding their way into whatever civilian government, corporate or lobbying job that comes after retirement.
Dmac | 3.19.12 @ 11:55AM
The mistake we made was we didn't act like a superpower, we still don't. Our president should have done three things once we learned who the culprits were for 9-11.
1st. He should have publicly demanded that the Muslims turn Osama Bin Laden over to the United States alive, or in a recognizeable condition if dead within 60 days.
2nd. He should have advised the wordl that should the Muslims not turn him over within 60 days that either Mecca or Medina would leveled by a nuclear device and all countries should have their citizens leave Mecca or Median imediately.
3rd. Follow through if he wasn't delivered and advise the city that wasn't nuked would be in 30 days if Bin Laden was still not in our hands.
9-11 wasn't our fault, it was the fault of Muslims everywhere. They are the ones who allowed this evil to leave the backyard of Islam and come into our yard. It is time the west MADE the muslim world reign in those who hijack their religion. We should have made them fight to put an end to it. Instead we ended up in a crusade. We should still advise the Muslim world that if it ever happens again anywhere that we will once and for all put an end to it.
JohnM| 3.19.12 @ 12:54PM
You have the right idea, but it's Congress that should have done it. Congress should have declared war on a country, not a religion or group of terrorists. It would be up to the other countries to keep their house in order or face an all out war with the US. As seen in the Japan of Emperor worship, properly conquering a country will allow the change needed.
Dmac | 3.19.12 @ 1:55PM
I understand what your saying John, problem is Afghanistan isn't really a country. It's a loose territory run by tribes, and those tribes are run by ignorant to world events tribesmen. Al Queda took the fight to the heart of the West by doing what they did. We should have in turn done the same with them. The heart of Islam is not in Afghanistan. It's Mecca and Mecca is in Saudi Arabia, the same country most of the terrorist of 9-11 came from. We had every right to go all out in retaliation and we should have done it without sending any of our children to do it. One strong message would have done it. Why be a superpower if your not going to act like one. We seem content to be the worlds policeman. Teddy Roosevelt had it right, speak softly, but carry a big stick. Afghanistan is still in the stone age, Iran has a desire to go there and Saudi Arabia should be sent there.
Bill| 3.19.12 @ 11:57AM
A Muslim gunman slaughtered 4 Jews school children in France.
Deport all Arabs from the USA.
Wxcynic| 3.19.12 @ 12:17PM
The Christian Arabs have, and new ones will, become good citizens here. Muslims will not.
Drek| 3.19.12 @ 2:09PM
Unfortunately, many of the Christian Arabs seem to prefer their being Arab to their being ostensibly Christian, hence their acceptance of their dhimmi status.
It's pretty bad.
cowgirl| 3.19.12 @ 12:21PM
Done. Finished. Over. We have spilled enough good American blood over the worthless, stupid, need indoor plumbing Arab what the hell ever countries in the Middle East (with the exception of Israel). Leave and give them an arsenal of weapons so that they can kill one another and get their 72 virgins or whatever the hell they get when they die. Who the hell cares.
NO MORE AMERICAN BLOOD OR MONEY FOR THEM. Good bye, see you later and have a nice life. We don't need your stinkin' oil
Slacker| 3.19.12 @ 1:50PM
There are no strategic goals. There is nothign left to do. Our guys might as well carry on with burning qurans and pissing on dead Afghans.
vtwin| 3.19.12 @ 2:17PM
...and sinking into their homes at night to kill their women and children.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.19.12 @ 3:06PM
Lemme guess. You're one of those douchebags who spit on Vietnam vets & called them "baby killers."
Jane Fonda called. She wants her gig back.
vtwin| 3.19.12 @ 4:49PM
Lemme guess. You're one of those douchebags who supported the mass murder of unarmed civilians in My Lai South Vietnam in 1968.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.19.12 @ 8:49PM
Hey, Commie, guess what? My father was in that war & spat upon & called "babykiller" by those of YOUR ilk. Spare me your idiotic diatribe about My Lai.
Yep. Every Vietnam vet was at My Lai.
Idiot.
W| 3.19.12 @ 10:12PM
vtwin thinks that supporting Americans means supporting what happened in My Lai.
Cold Hard Truth| 3.20.12 @ 10:37AM
Let me guess....your the kind of douche bag who will label an entire military evil because of a bad apple or two, despite all they endure....but will make every excuse in the world for the sub human behavior and violence in the inner cities of the US right???
vtwin| 3.19.12 @ 5:04PM
"Dozens of people, herded into an irrigation ditch and other locations, were killed with automatic weapons." --BBC News
Nazi Soldiers in Poland 1940? No, Americans Soldiers in South Vietnam 1968.
Skippy| 3.19.12 @ 7:18PM
I believe Lt. Calley was tried for that incident.
Would you like the entire American populace re-tried; convicted and executed?
Thought so.
vtwin| 3.20.12 @ 12:20PM
He was tried and found guilty of killing 22 unarmed civilians, he served 3.5 years "house arrest." Apparently, his victims were the wrong color and/or religion to warrant real punishment.
Con Chef (NB) | 3.20.12 @ 12:57PM
Yeah, so therefore, that implicates EVERY Vietnam vet, & I guess every current service member as well.
Don't you have a flag to burn or some soldiers to spit on?
RCV| 3.19.12 @ 11:21PM
I'm proud of our American soldiers, and proud of our country. We prosecuted Calley for his war crimes, and we will prosecute this Marine for his. But their aberrational acts don't reflect on the thousands of brave, loyal and decent young men and women who wear our uniform, including Con Chef's father inVietnam and mine in WWII.
golden oldie| 3.21.12 @ 10:52AM
Con Chef, I am a Vietnam vet, and I think our brave troops have been badly used and abused on an utterly foolish venture in Afghanistan. I don't think that makes me a "pussy".
Ed| 3.19.12 @ 2:11PM
Petraeus brought us the phony "victory" in Iraq and was rewarded with control of Afghanistan and became director of the CIA. Accomplish nothing, get kicked up the ladder.
OLDRAY| 3.19.12 @ 2:16PM
Jed Babbin , once again has a fine article AND most of the comments are also on the correct track (if a couple are a bit extreme). Islam is the enemy. They talk about the big satan (USA) and the "little " satan (Israel) ewhile they blow up civilians in Indonesia, India, Thailand,the Philippines, the USA, England etc,etc, They kill each other (Shia vs Sunni :Sunni vs Shia vs Aliwitevs Bahai, etc). The persecute Copts in Egypt, kill Christians in Nigeria, allow no Christian dsect in Saudi Arabia, wage war against Israel fgrom Lebanon asnd Gaza and Egypt's Sinai, On top of it all they strap bombs on their kids and send them out to blow up buses, restaurants, you name it. All this is justified in the Koran . And if someone burns a copy or cartoons Mohamed or writes an article they don't like they fgeel free to go on a rampage. Yet we (the West) allow them to set our rules (government & media) and invite them into our country,
vtwin| 3.19.12 @ 2:26PM
If only all Americans were as stupid as you we could stay there another tens years
Con Chef (NB) | 3.19.12 @ 3:07PM
Project much?
Quartermaster| 3.19.12 @ 8:54PM
Yep. He projects all of it. Of course the left are teh real baby killers. They just sanitize it and call it abortion.
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 10:55PM
Naww. We just need to go from nation building to nation destroying.
The thing that Bush never understood is that our nation building efforts were successful in Germany and Japan AFTER we beat them to a bloody pulp and burnt their cities down to helpless rubble, killing LOTS of civilians. Turned those boys into pacifists.
If we want to beat the Islamists, we will need to do the same to them. I do not denigrate their willingness to cling fanatically to an evil faith and culture, as the Nazis and the Japanese did. Curtis LeMay showed us the way. It is simple and well within our capability. But, do we have the will to win, or are we like Jack and Clint.
Vtwin does have 1 point---if we are not willing to do whatever it takes to win, better not to be there. Myself, I could see it done while eating popcorn without a twinge of conscience. It's a choice between their babies or mine, and mine are cuter, smarter, and the little girls chase after my son at age 8. No question in my mind.
Gr0w1er601| 3.19.12 @ 2:18PM
If you can't trust Marines with your safety, who can you trust? Unbelievable. NOTHING these WH dimwits do surprises me anymore.
Thom| 3.19.12 @ 3:23PM
36 years after the fall of South Vietnam I still read where people say we either won that war or Congress caused it’s lost by cutting off funds to the South…..
Both are wrong. The Republic of Vietnam is very much a Communist dictatorship today even with its quest for some capitalists “green” and South Vietnam was doomed to failure long before 1975 because we didn’t defeat the enemy, specifically the NVA which was the lynchpin in the entire VC insurgency efforts. If you don’t take the war to the enemy on your terms and control events you generally lose such protracted conflicts. We’ve made every mistake in Afghanistan that we made in South East Asia starting 46 years ago. No one should be surprised by the outcome. People are free to believe anything despite the evidence at hand but all wars are won or lost the same way. If you can’t kill more of the enemies soldiers faster than they can be replaced and maintain this with no end in sight you generally don’t win such conflicts. Defensive wars like Vietnam and Afghanistan are inherently of this type of conflict.
While Vietnam and Afghanistan have much in common they have something not in common and fundamental to why we went there in the first place. This difference is going to leave a very sour after taste in the mouth of those that think we can just pull up stakes and come home and that be the end of another military folly……
AQ and it protectorate the Taliban picked AF exactly because of its culture and remote location in the scheme of things. Being sandwiched between Iran and Pakistan is icing on the cake so to speak. Both Pakistan and Iran to a lesser degree have provided sanctuary from day one. Once we are gone AQ and the Taliban will have free reign over the entire country within a relatively short time. Like South Vietnam, the government and military of AF can’t stand on its own based on their GDP and will require generous sums of direct military foreign aid costing billions each year. How long do you think this aid will keep coming?
Casualties are running about 3:1 against the Taliban and once you remove the primary causality causers, the US and UK military then the substantial AF military bulk following our very inefficient COIN strategy will find itself losing more and more people to people who only have to attack when and where they wish while the AF forces have to cover everywhere all the time. The combined NATO and AF forces can’t control the Taliban now who in their right mind thinks this will be improved upon when you withdraw over 100,000 professional soldiers with modern weapons and alike.
As it stands today, Afghanistan is another folly hoist upon the American public by another Democrat President who campaigned on Afghanistan being the “right” war while undercutting his own handpicked Democrat General’s minimum recommendations for forces. LBJ micromanaged the losing in Vietnam. So is King Obama.
The outcome will be what it is; the core problem will remain. Long after I’m gone some will be arguing that we won the “war” in Afghanistan…… or lost it because Congress cut off funds for the Afghans.....
MachiasPrivateer| 3.19.12 @ 3:57PM
This is the growing season where are troops are going to be acting as farm extension agents and bring improved agriculture to poor Afghanis. Teach them to grow saleable crops (e.g. wheat) in lieu of opium poppies. Then burn any poppy fields we find. That rewards good behavior and punishes bad. And it cuts into the motives to become criminal drug lords and exacerbate our drug problems right here in the USA. Rising drug prices will cut consumption, a decided benefit here at home. Plus they can eat a portion of the crop themselves, so we will start to win "hearts and minds".
Combined with an emphasis on supporting the rights of women and children we will be civilizing an uncivil society. The guardians of the future will be those who benefitted by our presence in the past, women and children. We won over German kids with the "chocolate bombers" of the Berlin airlift!
Much more progress has been made than has been reported. Don't believe everything you read (or don't) in the newspapers.
Quartermaster| 3.19.12 @ 8:56PM
The only way we will civilize The Aghans is by converting them to Christianity. Otherwise, you will never get them to accept raising the status of women, or giving up opium.
SFC_Swede| 3.19.12 @ 10:24PM
The troops you speak of arent your garden variety grunts. Most of them are Guardsmen and women and Reservists from the South and MidWest. At the PRT I was at, we had an ADT team composing of these folks who along with Dept of Agriculture Reps, do exactly what you posted. Although I did not see opium fields, they did vaccinate animals and taught the Afghans better planting techniques, water conservation, and varying crops.
I agree with much of which you, DMac, and Thom have posted. After spending two years in Afghanistan, serving in multiple parts of RC East, I came away with opinions of each area and a greater understanding of the people. As some have pointed out, there is no National identity. At best, Afghans will self identify by tribe...and more than likely, by village or area. But that also leads to another point...most of the insurgency comes from the Pashtun Tribes in the East and South of Afghanistan...and at least in RC East...the Nuristani, who are quite willing to live as many of you have pointed out...in the 12th century. The Hazara's and Tajik's I met along my tours are good people, and not quite as hardcore as the Pashtuns. They took me to mass graves where the Taliban massacred thousands of their people. I stood at the foot of the Bamyan Buddhas and saw the history and art that the Taliban erased forever, but of which the Hazara in Bamyan were proud of despite them being Muslim.
Be it in Bamyan, or Asadabad, or in the Pech Valley...the people arent going to totally embrace Kabul, and for a very good reason. The ANA and/or coalition forces arent in the villages 24/7 unlike the insurgency who are. And getting your family killed could be as easy as giving information to the ANA, ANP, or coalition or voicing support for GIRoA. A poor infrastructure and transportation network system (Despite us throwing billions at it) is still a governing problem. And then of course there is the good ole corruption at all levels. From the Kandak Commander shaking down his troops...to the BDE and CORPS level staffs redirecting funds, equipment, and food/fuel for their personal gain are a very big concern, but nothing compared to the theft Karzai pulls on a daily basis.
My heart is torn on the fate of Afghanistan. On one hand I recognize the good Afghans who want to prosper and grow. The good ANA NCO's and Officers I met along the way. And then of course the tremendous amount of treasure and blood we have dumped into the nation. On the other hand is the lack of national will here at home to hammer the AF/PAK border, and hunt down and kill the insurgency no matter where they hide. The corruption and culture of violence that exists at all levels. And the growing lack of public support due to odd and suspect "accidents" and "US war crimes" (some things just dont add up right to me).
In the end...I am just a career NCO at the end of his time and these are my opinions. Of course I have an axe to grind...I barely recognize the Army I joined 25 years ago. It is being destroyed by political correctness and social engineering. And I have lost complete faith in the Flag officers I serve under, and more importantly the civilian leadership they bow and cater to.
ABNCP| 3.19.12 @ 5:44PM
As anyone with the brains God gave an earthworm must by now know, Obama spouts disinformation, misinformation, half truths and dammed lies. He was the one who said that Afghanistan was the nexus of where we should be fighting terrorists not Iraq. Of course anyone who thought he believed that was either a liberal or brain dead. He just wanted the sound bite to make him sound tough and ready to fight those who he or his Attorney General wouldn't call Muslim terrorists. Oh yeah, and to try to make Bush look bad. Most Democrat politicans have no stomach to do what it takes to confront radical Islam. We are at the start of a long and terrible war with radical Islam. We have the people, ability, technology, military, weapons, and power to defeat that savage scum of humanity. However, to do that we have to get rid of three cowardly words, RULES OF ENGAGEMENT! When we put Americans at risk of losing their lives, limbs or sight in a savage war to the knife with radical Islam there can no longer be rules by which our people cannot do everything possible to win. Forget about winning hearts and minds. All those weak types who want to try and convince us that works please show evidence where that has ever worked in any Islamic country. They don't have to like us. After we kick their asses, all we want them to do is fear us and respect us because they understand the consequenses of not doing so. So go in with overwhelming force, be on the whatever it takes program, do the job and get the hell out of those Godforsaken hell holes. It will take more than one lesson, but eventualy even those dumb asses will get the message. As for as Penetta, he never has been anything but a political hack and his cowardly action with the Marines reflects just what the Obama administration is all about.
SFC_Swede| 3.19.12 @ 10:45PM
You could say we defeated the Soviet Union...but look where we are now in the United States. The Communist Party USA can endorse a sitting President, and it doesnt even make the news. Academia, Entertainment, and the media are leftists strongholds cranking out more and more drones every year sympathetic to their Global world view. "We will bury you".
https://sites.google.com/site/heavenlybanner/mlhw
http://gatesofvienna.blogspot......ge-of.html
SFC_Swede| 3.19.12 @ 10:48PM
My point of the above is Islam will do much what they are currently doing to the EU and Britain to the US. They have a long range plan that most American's can not wrap their heads around because they cant concentrate past tomorrow.
Pat| 3.19.12 @ 5:58PM
Shortly before WWII, Congress had the Marines on a severe fiscal diet and the venerable Corps was barely surviving with less than 20,000 active officers and enlisted personnel. Congress is once again doing their Guns vs. Butter comedy routine and planning automatic – and massive - budget cuts aimed primarily at our military starting in January, 2013. Can we as a nation afford an elite military outfit with a track record of defeating every enemy they’ve come up against? Or, do we field a Corps of low paid mall cops armed with tazers and riding their Segways into battle? Patriotism without paychecks – our primitive, stone age culture in Washington voted for patriotism on the installment plan.
Now many Americans hope Congress is just kidding about automatic deficit reductions starting early next year and, primarily, at the expense of our military forces, but only time will tell. Our stone age culture in Washington believes too much military is needlessly expensive and perhaps evil as well. But we can bail out Detroit once again or we can keep our Marines well-armed, well-supplied and enjoying paydays – we can’t afford to do both according to Congress. Like the Afghans and their beliefs, our president and Congress share an abiding faith in the Welfare State as an ancient tribal form of rule which must consistently ignore - if not actively overcome – any threat of change.
And just like the Afghans under the Taliban, average Americans also suffer from oppression, the occasional government sanctioned murder and the theft of our wealth. But, if we can’t force the Afghans to accept a responsible form of self-government, perhaps we can force those primitives in Washington D. C. to do so while our Marines can still bear arms when mingling with our government masters. But, then again, even the Marines might find such a task beyond their considerable abilities.
Bob Grant| 3.19.12 @ 6:04PM
I say pull these boys home, pronto!!!
We have a president who has no intention of winning the war, who instead makes his decisions solely on political calculation and cost-benefit analysis.
And he's horrible at that!!
Bring 'em home and let not one more soldier be killed under the watch of a "leader" whose fecklessness is a direct threat to their safety.
mmercier| 3.19.12 @ 10:51PM
Every nation that has engaged in a land war in Afghanistan ends up in the same place we now find ourselves.
POST American| 3.19.12 @ 11:16PM
--MEANWHILE--
Foreign occupation of the US ramps up
with full-blown surveillance, data collection
etc unfolding on all fronts ---martial law
becoming the defacto reality ---and
'PAN--NET--a' himself voicing a treasonous
status quo before the US congress just last
week.
Putting to one side their (UN/CFR) STATED
long term goals for 'de--IN--DUST--realism',
RED China receivership ---and
-------------FINAL EUGENICS--------------
With 6 MILLION behind bars, America
is also now the foremost prison economy
---------------IN THE WORLD---------------.
Those with an ear ----TAKE HEED.
With smile button Tavistock spin,
and high tech pornographic invasiveness,
New-Remberg -----is being re-branded.
ie--------Nuremberg is now----BRAND NEW.
AGAIN, just weeks off from Breitbart's
'natural death' ----and the 'disappearance'
of the substance of his 'BAR-Rockefeller'
Obama college video(s) --------TAKE HEED.
golden oldie| 3.21.12 @ 10:39AM
Mr. Babbin is right, but where were his words of wisdom when all this began? Those of us who participated in the Vietnam War have always known that the visions of the Afghan War theorists were folly. And some of us have always bitterly laughed when it was said that Afghanistan is "not Vietnam". No, it is worse.
People today have no concept of the sheer force we brought to bear in Vietnam, and how little it accomplished. We should have learned then that no amount of force can subdue a determined foe surrounded or supported by an indifferent populace. We should have learned that trying to prop up a corrupt leadership cannot work. We should have learned that we cannot "win the hearts and minds" of people by invading their country and killing their people. We should have learned that people whose "economy" operates at a subsistence level are not moved by rhetoric about "democracy" or "rights".
If a ruthless military machine such as that of the Soviets could be driven out of Afghanistan, how did we ever think that we were going to prevail with our Oprah-minded "rules of engagement"?
The fools are the ones who keep talking as if war were a tool of diplomacy and that once we make our opponents feel the effects of our power, the American Empire will prevail. What we have shown, instead, is the limit of our power.
Occam's Tool| 3.21.12 @ 10:59PM
Actually, an amount of force CAN subdue a determined foe supported by an indifferent populace, if you are willing to allow for a LOT of collateral damage. We burnt DOWN Dresden in WWII, and Hamburg. But My Lai made us wet our pants in Vietnam. I'm not saying Calley shouldn't have been tried and convicted, I'm saying that we did worse things in WWII and we ignored them because we had our eyes on THE BIG PICTURE in a way we never had in Nam.
Now, again, we are faced with caring about civilians who want to kill us. To win will take a Curtis LeMay insensitivity to the job necessary. Do we have anyone like him now?