The American Spectator

betwyan| 2.29.12 @ 6:44AM

Mr Cline, tell me, you don't have a problem with denigrating college? Why not? It does deserver some denigration. It, like public schools, is run by leftists, neo-Marxists, subsidized. how should I say, "effeminates", who constantly preach some gems as diversity, multi-culturalism, globalism, secularism, atheism and that the USA was founded in sin and ever since, is a unjust nation.

Just like our country's best known "academic" - Barry Soetoro believes!

I think the country would be better off with fewer HR majors, marketing majors, lawyers, and the like and more engineers, mechanics and craftsman - you know, people who actually do something useful in life besides ........ endless talk.

Chris| 2.29.12 @ 7:22AM

Yes! No more Art History majors with $75k of debt please. More engineers and more welders.

Maxwell| 2.29.12 @ 8:09AM

Speaking of welding Chris, at 62 I am back to Mercer County Vo-Tec to learn welding. Had over head last night using the E7018 electrode. That was not easy, matter of fact I messed it up really well! Anyhow, there are no jobs for beginner welders out there but am still looking.

Lyneuss Fields| 2.29.12 @ 5:35PM

And analytical reasoning, who needs it! Why would a candidate with a MBA and JD under his belt want sheep who could think?

tc| 3.1.12 @ 12:25AM

LF, I hope you are not trying to make the point that analytical reasoning can only be gained from an academic instituion under professors tutelage? Are you? (not sure -- please clarify)

On a side but related note, personally -- I don't want any more JD candidates.

Audace| 2.29.12 @ 8:02AM

Mr. Cline is wrong, wrong, wrong to take Mr. Santorum to task for the remarks on college education.

Mr. Santorum is right to raise the issue and Mr. Cline is somehow too stupid to understand why Mr. Santorum has made it a point to point out the follies of modern day college in America.

One of the greatest working societies on the planet is Germany's. It has its real faults like all others, but the percentage of people in Germany with college educations is very low. Very low. The same in Switzerland and Austria. The trades -- all of them -- are considered difficult and challenging professions in their own right. And they are. If one has proven themselves in the trades, they are a person to reckon with, they are beyond just competent. The rare ones become "masters" of their skill and trades.

And this is honored.

So it needs to be here in America.

We have useless 20 somethings with nothing to offer except desktop computer skills who then move on to graduate schools because they still don't know what purpose they have in life and haven't a clue as to what to do.

And, yes, let's get America's young 20's out of the "hot houses" of liberal indoctrination. Like, as in, now!

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 10:29AM

Audace,

We also have to remember that the path for education is much different in those countries that you cited than it is in the USA. People decide or have the question decided for them at a much earlier point in their life what path they will take. Their high school curiculum is different depending on what that path will be. Their educational, business and government systems are much more integrated than what we have here. The student has fewer choices and the education is much more specific to the job that they will eventually have.

In the USA we have much more of a classical educational mindset. The student is given a broad educational foundation and it is up to them what they will do with that education once they leave high school. Where we seem to be truely lacking is a strong technical path for people who do not want to pursue a college or university education. Community colleges and tech schools are starting to fill this void but in my expirience high schools do not always offer this path in a way that leads to job opportunities.

TrueBlue| 3.1.12 @ 7:38PM

That's because so many people out of high school can barely read these days. Kids don't know how to think for themselves anymore, they aren't taught that in school; they're taught exactly what to think, and anyone that tries to be different is shunned and/or failed.

So much of a class grade these days is participation, but what you get for that part of your grade is determined entirely by the teacher. If they don't like a student they can fail them on that portion of the grade and wallah! Instance F in the class.

TrueBlue| 3.1.12 @ 7:38PM

Sorry, that should have read instant.

Dai Alanye| 2.29.12 @ 1:59PM

Let's recognize Cline's article for what it primarily is -- an attack on Santorum for the purpose of aiding Mitt Romney. In other words, a distorted robo-call in print form.

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 9:25AM

I prefer that we have only people who really want to be engineers become engineers. There are enough piss poor engineers out there without making the problem worse. Leave it up to people to decide what they want to become. Also people need to understand the real world value of their education and the cost to realize it. What we need are better routes for people to study trades and the realization that trades are a valuable education in and of themselves.

Drew| 2.29.12 @ 11:43AM

THKrupp, great point. My husband is a Mech Engineer (35 yrs) and he is always telling me about the young engineers he has had to interface with over the years that know absolutely nothing about the industry and can't understand how they even graduated. He is in a position and trys to mentor but says some just will never get it. Most likely because as you say, they really don't want to be engineers just get the high salary out here in Silicon Valley.

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 12:38PM

Right and engineering is seen as a stepping stone to upper managment when coupled with a MBA. Its not just young engineers in my expirience. Although many of them lack any sort of expirience in anything other than college classes. It seems like roughly 25-30% of the engineers I have met can truely call themselves engineers.

TrueBlue| 3.1.12 @ 7:41PM

Sadly with the number of people looking for jobs these days, and how easy it is to write fake credentials, the college degree is what is used as an easy measure of someone's knowledge for a job. Many employers just toss other resumes right in the trash if they don't have a degree attached, regardless of how much that person actually knows.

Alan Brooks| 2.29.12 @ 7:49PM

No more AS writers out of college, either, guys.

PCC| 2.29.12 @ 7:23AM

Mr. Cline's point is on target: denigrating parents' ambitions for their children's betterment via a university education, however liberal-biased that education may be, is to suggest that they should sacrifice that worthy ambition on the altar of cultural opposition to the prevailing standard, however misguided it may be.

For those who do not share Mr. Cline's viewpoint, by all means they are welcome to encourage their offspring to forego college in lieu of an entrepreneurial path; I, for one, would applaud such a course of action.

However, if these same parents and youngsters see employment rather than entrepreneurship as a useful or likely stepping stone to economic independence, then they are well-advised to acquaint themselves with the costs and entrance requirements of a university education, no matter how culturally repugnant they may find doing so.

mjs_pa| 2.29.12 @ 8:37AM

How is accumulating an unbearable debt to pay for a fourth rate education that leads to 35% unemployment amongst young people lead to their children's benefit?

Santorum is exactly right: It is snobbish to think that ALL children should go to college. Some don't have either the desire or the aptitude. Some have skills that will lead them in other directions.

As for attacking colleges and universities, it's about time that some one says: the emperor has no clothes. A degree in #OWS does no one any good.

Dai Alanye| 2.29.12 @ 1:50PM

Ridiculous! PCC is being far too PC.

We can't all be college grads or entrepreneurs. Hospitals can't run with nothing but doctors and nurses, nor the military with all officers. Businesses need more than engineers and managers, and even government bureaus need clerks.

There's nothing demeaning about honest work well done, regardless of the level of educational achievement. Let us further understand that not all education takes place within an ivied hall. Much can be and is learned by doing.

Cline is making a long stretch to attack Santorum for stating the plain truth. Over-priced colleges are sucking the life out of their students, half of whom shouldn't be enrolled in the first place. I wish parents and youths both would get wise to the scam before they take on vast debt for no real-world return.

Alan Brooks| 2.29.12 @ 7:51PM

But Santorum's grandhids will go to college! C'mon, don't take Santa-rum seriously, he just wants to play Reagan.

Alan Brooks| 2.29.12 @ 7:53PM

...I don't know if Santa-rum has kids or grandkids (he is 52 or 53 I am told), but they will go to college, no?

John - TMF| 2.29.12 @ 7:24AM

Mr. Cline:

The next time that you need your car fixed, that new bathroom plumbed, your electrical panel replaced, or your roof repaired, be sure to check the academic bona fides of the worker who did the job.

We wouldn't want to have one of those embarrassing, lesser humans without college degrees doing the work, now would we?

What good is sweating a pipe if you can't do it while contemplating the grander aspects of 19th century Existentialism?

Santorum was right, and a man with your educational background should be quite capable of determining that his target was snobbery and elitism, not non-vocational post-secondary education.

I have a degree in History from a major university, and a certificate as a computer programmer and analyst from a trade school. I assure you that the certificate ended up more valuable.

R/John - TMF

Appleby| 2.29.12 @ 7:35AM

University was never meant to be Trade School. A university education does not and should not give you the chops to get a job. A university education fits you for life -- gives you a sound bedrock of knowledge of the world in which you live, so that wherever you go and whoever you meet there, you will be able to talk to those people. And not incidentally, when you hear quotations from the Founding Fathers or the many famous orators and authors who shaped America, you will recognize them and understand the context in which they were spoken -- and you will be able to sort out for yourself when a politician is pouring snake oil. A university or college education should fit you to live in the world, whatever your job or career may be -- and above all else this applies to those who choose to be stay at home Moms and are in fact their childrens' first and most important teacher. Parents who can speak knowledgeably of history and science and art and music over dinner, whether they come home from an office, a shop floor, the oil fields or driving a bus, are the engine that drives America.

Yes, you can educate yourself at home, if you have someone to point you in the right direction. Odds are pretty good that if you don't attend college, you won't get past the sports page and will fall prey to the loudest voice in the room.

jppc| 2.29.12 @ 7:52AM

Wow, talk about being a snob. "you won't get past the sports page"? Sir (or madam), the news is useless except for sports. Or does your "high IQ" not tell you that? You maen to say someone who isn't a university "limp-wrist" can't discern sense from nonsense? Wow.......

The news is 99.99999% liberal, "diversity", multi-cultural "celebration". It is useless except for sports and weather.

PL| 2.29.12 @ 8:53AM

jppc, please don't leave out the comics. There are still about 4 to 5 good comic strips.

And the obituaries aren't too bad either. That's right. You read that sentence correctly. The obits remind us of just how terribly short and precious life is, i.e. no time for fooling around on frivolities.

Appleby| 2.29.12 @ 11:01AM

Yes, in fact today's news as it is presented is 99% garbage except for the sports (and in Toronto the sports is garbage too, as our teams never win.) Today's "news" is basically entertainment, weight-lost and shape-up fitness tips, cute animals and a couple of minutes of sneering references to conservatives.

jppc| 2.29.12 @ 11:22AM

Toronto? So you're really not an American........you should really refrain from commenting on our internal politics because you lack historical perspective as well as personal experience in it.

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 12:33PM

Using that logic all Americans should refrain from commenting about other countries as well

Rocco| 2.29.12 @ 12:48PM

jppc,

Appleby, a regular fixture on this site, is every bit as American as we are, she happens to live in Canada now. Also, THKrupp's remark below is spot-on....

Rocco| 2.29.12 @ 12:49PM

Aha, Krupp's remark is now above mine!

CRW| 2.29.12 @ 8:08AM

I agree with on the intent of a university education. However, most Americans today do not. Both parents and children want a "return on investment" for the thousands of dollars they pay in tuition. This means the degree obtained must lead to a high paying job - otherwise it is considered wasted time and money. To go to university to gain cultural and scientific knowledge to make you a better human being and to apply to both your professional and personal life is an idea now considered by most people to be rather quaint. This has helped to create the intellectual and moral poverty of our times.

JimH| 2.29.12 @ 8:18AM

Unfortunately while there are many important and fulfilling jobs which do not actually need a college education to perform, many employers will require at least a bachelors degree just to get in the door for the interview. As the quality of the education deteriorates the credentials required go up. Credentials can used in lieu of judgment and can help protect the employer from being sued.

Timothy L. Pennell| 2.29.12 @ 9:00AM

So, by your definition, we're what? A buncha Morons?

"A University Education fits you for life."

This ain't the 50's. Today's "University Education" is little more than a place where are Kid's Brains are Washed.

"Parents can speak knowledgeably of History" (Have you SEEN a School History Book? Do you know what they're Teaching about our History? "Blame America First!")

And Science - (Global Warming)

Art - (Piss Christ and Charles Maplethorp)

Music - (Tupac/Niggas with Attitudes/Fight the Machine)

"Odds are pretty good that if you don't attend college (Like all of those Occupy Wall Street Students) you won't get past the Sports Page and will fall prey to the Loudest voice in the room."

How dare you.

That's the Stupidest pile of SH*T, that I've ever read. Who the Hell, do you think you are? I've never been to college and I'll put my 148 I.Q. and my lifetime Experiences in the Military, Raising a Family, doing Physical Labour, and enjoying the Company, and the WISDOM, of a lot of those folks who may not "Get past the Sports page", up against any Pointy Headed/College Graduate Slacker, any day.

The people you BELITTLE, are the ones who go off to War, to keep this Country safe for all of the University goers to PROTEST this Country. They're the ones who make this Country work. They are the Glue, that holds us together. They BUILT this Country.

It's the University Ivory Tower Intellectual Elites, who are trying to TEAR IT DOWN.

Whether You believe it, or not as you watch Masterpiece Theatre.

Idiot.

loulou| 2.29.12 @ 10:41AM

The snobs are coming out of the woodwork.

I am more than qualified to listen to NPR but I refuse to do so.

PL| 2.29.12 @ 7:56AM

The encouragement by liberals to attend college is nothing more than one more grand tenet of the "Let's Get and Keep America FOREVER in Debt!" plan.

Mr. Cline, you mention this, but you don't harp on it. The current president and 10's of thousands of other useless idiots out there harping on "Get a college education!" aren't doing this because they care about the younger generations.

There is no altruism here.

It is to deepen the family, personal, and national debt. (knowing full well that the 'bang for the buck' effect at colleges and universities is darn near zero)

You have people shackled an in chains in their lives when they are 26 to 32 years old and still with $75,000 or more of debt weighing them down.

That is exactly where the president and the liberal elites want them to be. And that is why we will have the "education bailouts."

Timothy L. Pennell| 2.29.12 @ 8:28AM

College SHOULD BE denigrated. It's border line USELESS.

You don't believe me? Just ask one of the College Students at the nearest Occupy Encampment, how it's going. Ask one of the College Graduates, still living with Mommy and Daddy, and wondering how they will EVER pay back their Student Loans, how that's working out.

Ladies and Gentlemen. Boys and Girls. As long as The Muslim, sites on the Christian Throne, this is as good as it's gonna get.

You don't believe me? Just go to the Gas Station. Just go buy some Hamburger Meat. If you're a College Graduate? Have your Mommy buy it for you. TRY and get a good job. TRY and start a Business. TRY to afford a House.

Everybody needs their TOILETS. Everybody needs it to flush. Everyone needs an Electrician or a Carpenter, from time to time. Everyone needs TRADESMEN.

NOBODY needs an Ancient Chinese Dialect Interpreter, or an expert in Euclidean Theory. They need people who can DO things. People who can FIX things.

The former Weather Underground TERRORIST - Bill Ayers, is a College Professor. He belonged to a Group that Killed Cops, Blew Up Recruiting Stations, Bombed the Pentagon, and had: "Killing all White Babies", as one of their objectives.

That BUCKWHEAT looking Cornell West is a "Professor of Nothing" at Cornell University. I believe that the Uber Communist - Mizz Cloward - she of "Overwhelm the System to COLLAPSE the Social Infrastructure blah blah blah, is a frequent "Guest Speaker" at some of our more EXPENSIVE Indoctrination Facilities for the Advancement of Far Left Radical Progressivism. (COLLEGE) But then, what could be better than Indoctrinating the Children of the Wealthy, so they can be used to DESTROY their Parents, and using their own money to finance it?

This Agent Mulder looking Andrew Kline, seems upset that anyone would take the time to point out the OBVIOUS.

Academia is nothing more than an Incubator for young Communists and Marxists. It's too expensive. The kids are "taught" by Teachers' Assistants, because their Liberal Professors are far too Self Important for actual WORK. No. There are too many Navels that need Contemplating. Too many Invites to the Non Biased/Democrat Talking Points Memo Readers/"News" Shows. Too many Union Rallies to attend.

Besides. In the Country that they have planned for us, there won't be any NEED for Higher Education. Only DRONES. Only Worker Bees. That is the Way of the Collective. Those "Chosen" for Advancement, within the Ranks, will be Chosen by THEM. All the rest will live to Serve the STATE.

"But, why do you have talk about it?"

Why not?!

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 10:15AM

Timothy,

The truth is that we need people of all stripes. We cannot be just a nation of tradesmen and yeoman farmers. There is a need for thinkers, artists, techs, lawyers etc etc. For young people now there is an absolute need for post secondary education. Does it mean that everyone should go to college, not at all. What we have to do as a nation and a culture is realize that trade schools or some kind of vocational training is just as important of a career path as college is. Education in general needs to be encouraged at all levels and not seen as something negative or elitest. A life of constant education and learning both formal and informal is required in this day and age. Recent college graduates do indeed have a high level of unemployment but not nearly as high as people with no post secondary education at all. Not everyone is suited for college or university. It is however imperitive that everyone have some sort of training that allows them to gain expirience and have a shot at a decent life.

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 12:41PM

Actually, it is just the opposite. Timothy is correct. We will be facing a severe shortage of skilled tradesmen and skilled workers by the year 2025. Watzenburger (Cliff Claven) is heading up a national organization that is trying to head off this coming crisis. No joke.

Fed statistics bear this out and organizations are popping up to encourage young people to go to trade schools and consider carreers in the trades.

We really do not need another lesbian studies major.

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 1:28PM

Im arguing that skilled tradesmen are needed just as much as other professions. Timothy said that a university education is useless. That not true at all. Its useful for some. We cannot have a society made up of trades just as we cannot have a society made up of all lawyers. Each type of education serves a purpose.

I fully understand the shortage of skilled trades. What I am saying is that we need to do a better job of providing a path for people who want to enter these professions. These professions need to be seen as a viable path for success. In the recent past the basic formula for success was to go to college get a degree and get a job. Statisics will bear out that the avg degree holder has earned far more than the average non degree holder over time. This is what has led to the shortage of qualified trades. Trades are now better paid than in the past and it is because of the shortage of qualified people due to various reasons.

I am not saying that college educated people are worth more or some how better than non college educated people. What a person is worth or paid is largely dependant on individual skills, circumstances and how hard they work at something. You are right, we probably need very few people with a BA in Lesbian studies, but I would bet that there are people out there with that degree that are doing very well for themselves. I myself have a degree in General Studies. I quit school with 3 classes left to complete for a degree in Biology. I am now doing very well for myself in a field that only marginally uses what I learned in college. In fact I have always thought that a young person who does not know what they want to do with their life get a degree in Liberal Arts. It gives you a basic general foundation from which to build on. Does that mean that a person should pay $200,000 for that degree and hope they will somehow find a job that will give a good return on that? Absolutely not. A person can go to a decent state school for a resonable amount of money and get a basic education that will allow them entrance to many different careers. If that person is not academically minded then they shouldnt go to University or College and instead look seriously at a tech school or trade school. Doing nothing will have a severe impact on their ability to earn a decent living in the future.

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 2:59PM

Timothy said it is borderline useless.
Now, I think Tim was expressing his frustration with the quality of education today that he finds, for the most part, at most universities, as not much more than a marxist education and ill preparation for the real world. He sites some dramatic examples to bolster this point. In most cases, other than business majors and engineering and science programs, this is honestly the state of higher education today. You say a basic foundation, for what? You may indeed have gotten something from it.

However, it is also known that many graduates have very poor thinking and problem solving skills, poor work ethics, and poor work habits. Many of them lack the basic communication skills both verbal and writing, that are required in the work world. Employers whine daily about this.

No one at this point can argue that universities are not taking students that should not be there and passing them through. Free speech and discourse is limited. Professors offer little, as many students complain, other than political left wing diatribes. Courses are slanted towards a left wing perspective of the world, this nation, history, and even science.

This is why it is very critical for young people to choose wisely when picking a college.

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 4:28PM

I apologize, he did say borderline. In my experience which is dated from the 1990's there was no marxist indoctrination at the university that I attended. Attending college opened up my horizons to other diciplines and areas of study. It gave me a broad base from which I was able to continue my education from a personal standpoint as well as a professional standpoint. Having a degree has opened doors that otherwise would be closed to me.

Specifically I learned how to critically read something and give a reasoned thought out response to it. I learned how to research and cite information to back up my position on something. I learned how to read a map and traverse country using only compass. I was introduced to authors that I would never have read otherwise. I learned leadership skills. I learned how to deal with people from various backgrounds that were completely different from my own. I learned about history and the themes of history which have impacted the world. I took business writing classes, mathmatics, statistics, sociology, psychology, economics classes. I took one arts class which was a music appreciation class. I took a rifle and pistol class, CPR class and a logic class. I learned how to use mulitiple weapons systems in my military science classes. I learned how to set up an effective ambush, how to move through different types of terrain with a platoon sized infantry unit as well as how to direct and lead that platoon. How to direct artillery strikes as well as air strikes. My biology classes I learned the classification system, upper and lower morphology of plants. Basic ecology, economic uses of plants and what makes them valuable. I learned about bacteria, yeast, algae, blue green algae and how to grow and identify unknown microbs in the lab. I learned how to identify birds, mammals, reptiles, amphibians and fish. I learned how to identify trees and plants in the winter as well as with leaves on them. I learned how to read the ecology of an area and determine what had happened in the past in that area. I learned about geology, different types of rocks and soils, how to read a siesmic read out and to identify salt domes where oil could be found. I learned about the geologic time scale and the fossils that are associated with each time span. I learned about diseases and their effects on the human body. I learned upper level chemistry. I learned how to gather information, statisically manipulate it and turn that information into something useful. More important I learned social skills. I was a middling student at best, but that was my own fault. I spent a lot of time drinking and partying. The best friends I have are people that I met in college.

90% of what I learned isnt really useful to me economically. Im not a master at any of the things which I learned, but I know enough about many different topics that I can build on that information when needed or desired. I would be hard pressed to show a positive return on equity for the information that I have from college. I will say that having at least some college has helped me get jobs I normally would not have been considered for. Now that I have an actual degree it opens even more doors for me.

I would have learned very few of these things in the detail that I did on my own. This doesnt even include the production agriculture, computer, HR and managment classes that I took after I left college.

As far as graduates having poor thinking, poor work ethic and poor work habits. Can you say that people without college degrees have all these things? Some of it is just maturity, some of it is that young people dont work like they did in the past before graduating college. Problem solving is a skill that is only honed by having actual problems to solve. I was raised on a farm and had all these skills in spades before I went to college.

As far as not having free speech or discourse. I didnt find that to be true in my experience. I went to a state university in the midwest and didnt have exposure to a lot of left wing diatribes. There might have been a few instances but it was relatively rare. I dont remember any courses that were taught from only a left wing world view. There were probably some but I dont recall them. When I went to school I was much more conservative than I am now. Life experience has caused me to shift farther to the left than what I was in college. This of course is my own experience and may not be indicitive of all universities everywhere.

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 4:48PM

LOL it does appear that I didnt learn how to make my point in a short and concise fashion. My appologies.

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 6:30PM

Exactly, you were raised on a farm and you took your education seriously because you knew the value of hard work and the opportunity to learn many things. You just said you ventured out and took business courses, computer, and technical writing, and a host of other practical courses. Good for you.

I am afriad to tell you that is not typical but extraordinary. But the fact that you are not as conservative than you were before college is telling. Remember, you attended a midwest college, try visting those on the west coast and east coast and a few in the Chicago area. You may want to examine that further.

Have you ever heard of a conservative named, David Harowitz? Google him if not. He has dedicated his life to confronting the radical bias on campuses and exposes it in many of his writings. He has been tracking the situation across the nation for years.

Next time Ann Coulter attempts to visit a college, maybe you should attend the speaking engagement.

You will see first hand how open to debate, ideas, and discourse and just hostile many of these universities are to opinions contrary to liberal and radical ones.

sane person| 2.29.12 @ 12:59PM

You sound as though you have a huge chip on your shoulder.

While I agree that Universities produce far too many people with degrees in virtually useful subjects, we must remember that there are a number of degree programs in engineering, science, medicine, math, etc. that are the underpinnings of most every complex system that is designed, built and produced. Moreover, we do need people to be trained in statistical analysis, accounting, business, etc. to run the companies. We also need lawyers to write, review and negotiate contracts.

In other words, in a modern society like the USA and a world leading economy, we need well trained college graduates, trained professionals, and scientists and engineers with advanced degrees.

The right kind of degree is also worth a lot.

I have multiple degrees in EECS from MIT including a PhD. I have made millions of $ on my inventions and I am still young. And although I spent years in school, I did not see overwhelming numbers of liberal communists that many people seem to think lurk at institutions of higher learning. Maybe this was because I was at a technical school, but certainly your gross generalizations are not accurate.

Integrity and Credibility| 2.29.12 @ 1:34PM

Please further address inaccurate gross generalizations. Specifically, to allow readers to determine the integrity and the credibility of your words, please provide readers a one sentence summary of your position on manmade global warming. Thank you in advance for improving the debate, and may it be worth a lot.

sane person| 2.29.12 @ 4:20PM

First, if you read my posting I think I already explained why I believe Mr. Pennel made inaccurate gross generalizations. Specifically, not all degrees have the same value to society or the graduate. Recently a study was published that showed graduates in hard sciences and engineering from good technical schools had much higher Return-On-Investment (ROI) compared to liberal arts degrees.

Second, based on your question about global warming, you appear to want to pose a litmus test on me. That is fine, as long as you will answer my question below.

Third, with regard to your question, if you read my post you would have noticed that I have degrees in Electrical Engineering and Computer Sciences. Therefore, I do not consider myself an expert on global warming. Having said that, as a technical person I realize that the science is complex and partly based on extremely complicated numerical models. I am also aware that these models are problematic when used to come up with long term predictions. Nevertheless, there does appear to be evidence of warming temperatures in some regions. Whether this is caused by carbon emissions is unsettled science and deserves more study in my opinion.

Now for my question to you:

Please derive the equations of electromagnetism (ie Maxwell's Eqns) to explain why the sky appears blue during the day. You may assume there are no clouds.

Integrity and Credibility| 2.29.12 @ 5:21PM

"I have multiple degrees..."

"I have made millions of $..."

"I did not see overwhelming numbers of liberal communists..."

"Whether this is caused by carbon emissions is unsettled science and deserves more study..."

I would rather relive a theoretical physics than a differential equations class. Ironic that litmus tests scatter results more or less efficiently resulting in either blue or red.

Ironic too the academic qualifications of Nuclear Physicist Carter, of Rhodes Scholar Clinton, and of Constitutional Scholar Obama.

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 3:13PM

Bingo. Yes, it is because you attended a technical school. You should have taken up that offer from that girl you met at Bob's party and went down to her liberal arts college for the weekend to visit.
You would have then known exactly what Tim is talking about and you would have speeded back to MIT.

Well, it is not too late to learn because you are going to meet these phantom people Tims is railing about when you enter the corporation and when you attempt to do your work and develop those technologies. They will be protesting outside your plant trying to stop you from developing your latest innovation. Or maybe when you are getting that divorce and the feminist nazi lawyer of your ex-wife is turning you into a monster that wants to kill every woman alive. Or maybe when you are layed off because your company has been sued by some environmentalist group, needs cash for litigation, and a liberal arts graduate who is now a judge is sticking it good to your employer.

Ah, youth!

sane person| 2.29.12 @ 3:24PM

Never worked in any company that I did not own. I have have bad experiences with people, but I cannot say it was always because of their politics.

Also, I am happily married and intend on staying that way.

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 3:44PM

Well, you are young, there is still plenty of time and much ahead to learn.

Good luck with your company and your marriage.

Bill| 2.29.12 @ 9:01AM

Guess Who?
voted for
1. Raising the debt ceiling 5 times
2. Planned Parenthood
3. Medicare Part D
4. NCLB
5. Bridge to nowhere
6. supported Arlene Specter, who cast the 60th "deciding" vote passing Obamacare
voted against
1. "Right-to-Work" law
Ans: Ricky "Pro-Union " Santorum

Nick| 2.29.12 @ 11:40AM

"That nigger lover President Clinton had the pen and vetoed so many good bills passed by the Gingrich-led Congress."
- Written by Bill, in the Time for Newt to Do the Honorable Thing thread:

http://spectator.org/archives/.....ent_749403

You're a moron and a racist, Bill.
GO AWAY!

Bill| 2.29.12 @ 11:41AM

Nick is a "child molester." Watch Out!

Nick| 2.29.12 @ 11:59AM

You're a racist and a liar, Bill.
Now, GO AWAY!

Bill| 2.29.12 @ 12:48PM

Nick is a convicted felon and is not allowed to vote.

Nick| 2.29.12 @ 1:00PM

Go away, Bill the racist pig!

Bill| 2.29.12 @ 1:54PM

Go away, Nick the racist pig

Nick| 2.29.12 @ 3:08PM

Repudiate your racist remarks, Bill the Bigot.

Bill| 2.29.12 @ 5:01PM

Nick is a convicted child molester.

Nick| 2.29.12 @ 5:56PM

Is that all you got, Bigot Bill?
Two insults?

What a simpleton.
Now, GO AWAY, RACIST PIG!

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 3:54PM

Bill, they are your words, you typed them. It is there for the whole world to see and now is stored in the vast archives of this web site.

It is not too much to expect you to acknowledge that and apologize for it. This is what sincere and sane adults do. Why should we give you any cred to talk about anything when you can not do the reasonable thing?

We can ceratinly not accept your claim that you are a conservative because conservativism does not include racism and racist remarks like the one you clearly typed and can not be tolerated and will not be tolerated.

Bill, be a man and own up, and apologize. Otherwise, get lost.

Bill| 2.29.12 @ 5:02PM

I smell Dr. Phil....................

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 6:32PM

I smell a racist troll.

Scott Ryan| 2.29.12 @ 9:02AM

The GOP is Serving Mammon (a false object of worship & Devotion)

http://www.TableOfWisdom.com

trw| 2.29.12 @ 9:02AM

Mr. Cline wrote, "Rick Santorum is stretching his criticism of President Obama's advocacy of universal college attendance into a broader attack on college itself. "

Then hip, hip, hoooorrrayy!

I live next to a college, so my observations of "high"er learning, the professors, the deans are endless. And most of it is not good, it is not serious.

We need someone on the national stage lambasting colleges instead of these phony "Oh! You've done so well!" at graduation cap and gown ceremonies.

The colleges are what turn out our muddled brain that then think life is free, no? Our colleges delay reality and don't inject reality into these kids. Our colleges keep them as kids (as adolescents) instead of preparing them for the serious responsibilities of adulthood.

Hear, hear if someone out there on the national stage is taking colleges to task for failures after failures.

Mr. Cline, I think we need to sent you to Pensacola, Florida, Fort Walton Beach and just a little further eastward for the next three weeks. This trip to the Florida coastline is not so you can get it on with college girls, but so you can have your head screwed on straight as to what the colleges are producing these days. Tens of thousands of morons, otherwise known as sophomores, juniors, seniors, and grad students.

Get the drift?

PL| 2.29.12 @ 9:25AM

I would encourage the author and all readers on this page to personally get smart on the recent court case in Charlottesville, Virginia regarding the trial of a University of Virgina senior.

His name is George Hugeley. He is alleged to have murdered another senior named Yardley Love in early May 2010.

Read how they spend their college days. I read of a lot of drinking, a lot of partying, and a lot of sleeping around. It is odd that none of the narratives on these two ever sheds any light on what academic majors they had.

These two did not seem to be alone in their non-stop college days of debauchery at what is supposed to be Virginia's premier school, I believe. It seems that most of their cohorts were right there with them drinking and partying and sleeping -- around. (On the Sunday night that Yardley died, one of Yardley's apartment roommates -- the one who finds her dead -- is bringing a guy back to the 'pad' for probably something more than just a cup of tea. The roommate's testimony makes it clear that for the two of them, this will be the first time sleeping together.)

Oh, let's not forget that the two, Hugeley and Love, were multi-year varsity athletes on lacrosse programs almost always vying for national NCAA Division I titles. So the non stop 'extra-curricular activities' did not seem in the least to inhibit their NCAA fitness for top sports.

College indeed.

If he hadn't murdered? (you be the judge) her, the two of them would have their fine University of Virginia pedigree diplomas today. But.....with all that sex and booze and road trips and cavorting and partying going on, just what learning and academic rigor would be hidden in those diplomas?

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 9:49AM

My friends who did not go to college participated in just as much debauchery as the ones who did attend college. Dont blame it on college blame it on youth. I dont remember the people in the military that I knew being saints. If anything they were much worse than anyone I went to college with.

loulou| 2.29.12 @ 10:45AM

The lacrossse teams at UVa are royalty.

I know many brilliant kids (not from VA) who were not accepted at UVa. I know a mediocre girl who was the right color who was accepted and offered money. She was not a VA resident either. She turned UVa down and went to another school that offered her even MORE money.

Paul from SA| 2.29.12 @ 10:28AM

Santorum didn't attack college. Please re-read his statements. This is a liberal attack like:

Republicans are racist.
Republicans are against the environment.
Republicans are against women's health.
Newt is against capitalism.
Rick Perry wants to take away social security from seniors.
Santorum is against college.

The first three are standard liberal accusations. The last three are from dishonest Romney supporters.

trw| 2.29.12 @ 11:34AM

Paul, I think you are right. Not that I am going to do it (and I am not from the NE so I don't read this mostly likely rag paper) but I am sure one could analyze the last three - five years of writing from Mr. Cline in his association with the New Hampshire Union Leader and see a Romneyesque bias. If not for Romney per se then for a spineless GOP establishment type that is not that distinguishable from a Demoncrat.

Good post, Paul. Spot on.

Hard to believe that Mr. Cline wants to consider himself a professional in this field. It is quite a stretch to maintain that Rick Santorum is blanketly against college(s).

If Rick Santorum was -

Criticizing Obama and Criticizing Colleges -- well, that's a win-win in any good man's book.

I've just re-read Mr. Cline's article. He really is not one to be taken seriously. I guess this was a test article that TAS allowed through on a otherwise slower news day. Well, here's to hoping that Mr. Cline gets the D- he deserves. And that's being charitable with the grading.

You really have no idea what America you are living in (or talking about) if you believe anything of merit is occurring at today's campus.

Keep attacking today's campus. Please don't stop.

Paul from SA| 2.29.12 @ 12:34PM

Have you noticed Romney is the only candidate who has not had fight media dishonesty?

All the other candidates had to battle the lies, but not Romney. Why is that?

I watch CNN and MSNBC quite often and have noticed they attacked all the GOP candidates using massive lies, but not Romney. They attack Romney, but not with lies. I think the Democrats want Romney to win. I think Romney will be the easiest for Obama to defeat.

When Romney wins the nomination, he will move to the left, further alienating conservatives, forcing a boycott or 3rd option.

Republicans don't hear me and don't care. I don't think they believe me when I say I won't vote for Romney. I want smaller govt. Where's my candidate?

Paul from SA| 2.29.12 @ 10:30AM

Education is very important, 1) high schools don't teach enough 2) I can usually tell the difference between college and non-college people later in life.

Non-college people just don't have the voculary, reading, writing and speaking skills.

loulou| 2.29.12 @ 10:36AM

I understood what Santorum said/meant.

If EVERYBODY goes to college then nobody goes to college--it will be meaningless.

For the multitudes that major in women's studies, black studies, asian pacific studies, gender studies, english lit from a feminist perspective, art history, etc., a college degree already is meaningless. YES: meaningless except for the leftist indoctrination that is forced upon students.
College has become an indoctrination hothouse. It is already seen as an extension of high school what with the remedial classes so many students require.

Once everyone has their college degree then the smart people will have to go to graduate school.

Cline is a classist and a snob.

PL| 2.29.12 @ 11:14AM

Lou Lou, you are right. One could go to any college in America and take out 35% of the student body without even thinking or batting an eye. With some reflection and examination of grades, true aptitude, demonstrated performance and a few other metrics, remove another 20%.

Most kids in college shouldn't be there. They don't merit it. However, because, as we all know, the universities and colleges are now multi-million and multi-billion dollar enterprises. There is no way they are going to REJECT applicants, transfers, or failing and weak, undeserving students.

Like so many things, it is about money. And indoctrination.

Sadly, the graduate degree now is also almost entirely worthless as so many slobs have also plunked down their money and regurgitated whatever pablum is required to obtain the next little punch on their lifetime ladder ticket.

Higher education in America is really no different than standing in front of a vending machine.

If you have the time & money, you will get the degree when you push the button labeled 'B4.' You get the Crackle Bar. Or the diploma. Same difference.

loulou| 2.29.12 @ 10:48AM

When my daughter was in first grade she and 5 other children were placed in a challenge program based on test scores. When the other parents caught wind of it they demanded that their children be included irrespective of their test scores. Of course administration caved and every child was in the challenge program. So essentially no child was in challenge. Get it, Cline?

Bill| 2.29.12 @ 11:46AM

Santorum supported Arlene Specter, who cast the 60th deciding vote passing Obamacare, and that was a "fatal" blow to Santorum's conservative credentials.

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 12:32PM

The fatal blow to your conservative credentials came when you posted the following,

Racist Troll Bill....said in his post, "That nigger lover President Clinton had the pen and vetoed so many good bills passed by the Gingrich-led Congress....."

Bill| 2.29.12 @ 12:48PM

That's slender!

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 1:01PM

Your words, Bill.
Big fat racist words.

Dave Williams| 2.29.12 @ 12:03PM

I am a professor, and I can say with authority that at least 1/3 of my students shouldn't be there; they can't read, can't write, can't think, can't speak eloquently, and are not the least bit interested in learning for its own sake. When trying to teach them, I am often reminded of Twain: "Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time, and it only annoys the pig."

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 12:29PM

What do you teach, what subject?

Students of Professor Williams| 2.29.12 @ 1:40PM

We students disregard him completely because mostly he discusses his atheism in both his Womyns Studies and his Cultural Diversity classes.

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 1:40PM

Dave like most everything else education is wasted on the young. I find that I really didnt become interested in education and learning until a few years after I had left college.

ICE| 3.1.12 @ 6:07PM

Then, THKrupp, I wish you had not been there. You held a spot that a more deserving student merited.

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 12:27PM

Andy,

He did not denigrate college but the idea that everyone MUST go to college and everyone should be taxed so as to pay for others college educations and make it free for them.

He objects to the idea that you should not be responsible for your own education and pay your own tuition.

He objects to the idea that government should be in the business of making loans and giving away our tax dollars so Lisa can major in lesbian studies and be excused for paying for this when she defaults on the loan and moves in with her "girlfriend."

You know, who needs liberal progressive enemies, when we have jackass so-called conservatives like yourself calling themselves our friends doing the dirty work of misrepresenting our candidates for our enemies.

Owen K| 2.29.12 @ 12:54PM

This is one of the problems with Santorum. He seems to have a propensity of putting his foot in his mouth. Dick Morris states in his lunchtime video that Santorum needs to stop his commentary and focus on social issues and get back to the economy. His emphasis seems to be in the wrong place and he often does not articulate that well.

David| 2.29.12 @ 2:54PM

Mr. CLine, without having read the above comments, you may be right it appears that Santorum is attacking college, but he is flippin' correct.

If not for the dumbing down of Americans via public schools and colleges, Clinton could never have been elected twice and Bam Bam once - and he'll probably get re-elected.

If not because of the public schools and colleges, how else do explain the election of those deceivers, liars, socialist punks to the highest office in the world.

It stupid people taught by people with no common sense, judgment, or wisdom.

Jim| 2.29.12 @ 4:15PM

I don't think he is attacking colleges. I agree with him that everyone doesn't need to go to college. Obama is nuts. How about everyone in the USA gets to go to medical school then become brain surgeons. I saw so many hispanics in South Texas going to college because it was "free". They didn't attempt to learn just enrolled & took up space so they would get $$$. Money I paid to the government in taxes.

Oldefarte| 2.29.12 @ 5:07PM

First, BOTH Santorum and Obama are idiots, period. One was a professional Pennsylvania vote declarer and the other a Acorn-type street hustling ambulance chaser for community organizing in Chicago. Big woop! The fact is that BOTH college and non-college graduates are needed within our society. College does not teach the nuts-n-bolts of any specialty so much as it creates an environment conducive to HOW TO LEARN AND TO THINK INDEPENDENTLY. It creates thoughts, some good, some not so [ie liberal]. College degrees in the humanities is most useless if one wishes employment within corporations, especially business-financially oriented ones [same employers simply do not nor will not spend the time needed to instruct a history graduate in the basics of accounting/finance etc]. Humanity degrees are great for conversational purposes at cocktail parties however, but most useless anywhere else. However engineering, science, pre-med/law, business etc degrees are excellent preparatorations for work within those fields as to their basics. Again, not everyone graduating high school is interested or fitted for a college degree. There are individuals whose interest lie in working with their hands [carpenters, electricians etc] and these induviduals would be better off attending some form of accredited trade school with intricate training in these fields. Others so dedicated can/should join the military as excellent training facilities in these areas and in advancing toward leadership roles within same [IMHO our military leaders and service members are the life-blood of this nation and always will be so; furthermore, former military members make excellent job candidates in private industry as their form training lend an excellent disciplanary preparation for same]. The problem with this country is that the trade school environment is extremely poor currently and moneys should be expended to increase and promote its furtherance and enhancement so that training in manual trades could be increased. Additionally in this regard, manufacturing in this country has deminished substantially and needs to be restored. This could be done by eliminating the huge labor union influence and allowing the market to enable the proper higher pay within manufacturing void of union segments. This would return manufacturing previously stolen by foreign countries through their cheap labor with our then trade school education population able to fairly compete with India and China; and would once again provide multitudinal well paying jobs for non-college graduates of trade schools. Also, our domestic energy sources should be fully developed [and not restricted as the current administration and the socialism of Democrats propose], again providing a ton of well paying jobs [as Gingrich has receintly outlined in his 20 minute speech regarding energy development needs here]. No we need both college and non-college individuals for the best of both worlds!!!!!!!!!!!

THKrupp| 2.29.12 @ 5:28PM

Nicely said

Oldefarte| 2.29.12 @ 5:12PM

PS: Left unsaid above is the fact that every HS grad needs to either go to college, to a decent trade school or into the military. The laziness of those not fitting into one of these should be seriously dealt with, since the end result will become prison, crime etc!!!!!!!

Willy| 2.29.12 @ 5:52PM

Everyone with a brain, and a little maturity, knows that most of the kids coming out of high school do not belong in college. Check the percentage of college freshmen who have to attend remedial courses. We are doing them a disservice by insisting that the only way to get a good job is with a degree. The focus should be on developing a skillset for which there is a demand. See Steve Jobs 101. Much of this started when the government(EEOC) made it virtually impossible to use pre-employment testing in the 70's. The response from employers was to use a college degree as a threshhold requirement for many jobs. So now we have generations of kids who believe that that is their only chance to get ahead.

DRed| 2.29.12 @ 6:15PM

First off, Obama never said that he wanted everyone in America to go to college. So Rick is lying. Second, there's something a little amusing about a man with two graduate degrees complaining (who is the son of a doctor) complaining about the evils of higher education. Rick should lay off the class warfare and maybe he could actually win the Catholic vote in some state. Catholics tend to value higher education.

DRed| 2.29.12 @ 6:16PM

whoops. Too much complaining by me there.

Simon Templar| 2.29.12 @ 6:40PM

You are correct. He and you actually said every ones has a right to a college education and we the tax payers should pay for it. He and you also said private loan companies should not be allowed to operate and the government should be a lender of my tax money instead. He also advocates forgiveness and waiving of these loans because the big bad banks are monsters.

Thought I would help you out, RED.

Now troll away from here...and back under your rock like a good liberal snake.

DRed| 2.29.12 @ 7:42PM

Trolls live under bridges, Simon.

When did Obama say that every one in America had a right to a taxpayer funded college education?

Ovomit| 2.29.12 @ 11:07PM

"That is why it will be the goal of this administration to ensure that every child has access to a complete and competitive education - from the day they are born to the day they begin a career"

"That is why we will provide the support necessary for you to complete college"

"we will make sure that you can afford a higher education"

"and all of their debt will be forgiven"

"in the United States of America, no one should go broke because they chose to go to college"

DRed| 2.29.12 @ 11:44PM

And let's tell another one million students that when they graduate, they will be required to pay only 10 percent of their income on student loans, and all of their debt will be forgiven after 20 years –- and forgiven after 10 years if they choose a career in public service, because in the United States of America, no one should go broke because they chose to go to college.

I know that the price of tuition is higher than ever, which is why if you are willing to volunteer in your neighborhood or give back to your community or serve your country, we will make sure that you can afford a higher education.

It's less radical sounding when you
include all the words.

Nick| 3.1.12 @ 12:43AM

"It's less radical sounding when you
include all the words."

Umm, no it isn't, DRed.
Who pays for all this debt forgiveness, if not the morons who put themselves in debt in the first place?

Are you claiming that it has not been a decades-long dream of liberals to make post-secondary education free to all, in the same way elementary through high-school education is, following the European socialist model?

DLiar| 3.1.12 @ 4:22PM

DLiar

"First off, Obama never said that he wanted everyone in America to go to college" (DLiar @ above)

DLiar

"That is why it will be the goal of this administration to ensure that every child has access to a complete and competitive education - from the day they are born to the day they begin their career" (DLiar In Chief @ SOTU 2009)

DLiar

"It's less radical sounding when you include all the words"

DLiar

PCP Smoker| 2.29.12 @ 9:01PM

Cline is a creep. Bring back Leobe.

POST American| 2.29.12 @ 10:40PM

"Notice, once again, as the REAL campaign
approaches, the REAL issues 'disappear'."

---Capstone vetted and authorized
'TT-Rick Sanitarium' just weeks ago
lent full 'on board' support for the
ANTI-Consitutional, chillingly North Korean
NDAA 1021.

--------Get this piece of Trojan Horse cardboard
--------------------OFFFF our platforms!

Spo101| 3.1.12 @ 3:22AM

Yes I’m up early every morning taking care of my retarded cousin Billy Boy. He likes to watch FOX & Friends because it makes him feel smart. He winds down after Limbaugh on the radio and takes a nap. Billy Boy wakes up happy & refreshed around dinner time to tell me fantastic stories about a quest for he and his mentally deficient cult to defeat the evil sorcerer Bak Obam and save the USA!

I’m joking, right jinnbad.blogspot.com ?

We really must get rid of the GOP in the next few election cycles. Republicans/Conservatives are making Americans look bad in the eyes of the rest of the world. Go to any foreign nation to ask the locals and you’ll hear question about why the USA allowed so many of it’s people to get so stupid as to have voted for George W. Bush and Sarah Palin. The right-wing is going to go down in history as the biggest sucker fools EVER!

Actually Americans are more than ready to go to the streets to get the silver spoon, trust fund baby Aristocrats. WAR is such good practice. 100,000 of young concerned citizens trained to kill evil doers.

I think Obama/Biden has used the Bush/Cheney wars as the worlds greatest government run jobs program because they know the Republicans won’t vote for ANYTHING else that might help America make a comeback during Democratic rule…
Just because there’s almost 50 MILLION Americans struggling below the poverty level… Damn socialism, right?

By the way, who won the Oscar’s?

QUOTE OF THE DAY
2-5-12 Jokes
At the this years Super Bowl everyone is talking about “the finger” and what a disgusting display it was. I hope anyone wasn’t eating during this outrage because it was truly terrible. I’m not talking about M.I.A. during the Madonna halftime show. NO!

The finger I’m talking about happened up in Robert Kraft’s skybox. The shot of that fat, loudmouth m***** Rush Limbaugh picking his nose on national TV was more than I COULD TAKE! That’s probably why the Patriots lost in such a terrible manner. Rush Limbaugh spreads bad luck and trouble no matter where he shows up… Hope they impose a heavy fine on Limbaugh because he ruined the finger food meal we had set out for the game.
lol