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Car Guy
Honda Hounded
Heather Peters has won her small claims suit — and now we all may lose.
Heather Peters (no relation to this writer) just won her lawsuit against Honda over what she argued were misleading claims about the gas mileage she’d get out of her then-new 2006 Civic hybrid. She was awarded $9,867 in compensation, the maximum amount she could have been awarded in small claims court.
Now comes the deluge.
Because while Peters’ $9k judgment is small potatoes, the fact that she succeeded could encourage a tsunami of similar court cases that might end up costing Honda (and potentially other hybrid car sellers and so, ultimately, consumers) a lot more than $9k.
As Peters (a lawyer) notes, there are at least 200,000 Honda Civic hybrid owners alone. That’s just one make/model of hybrid. There are at least a dozen different hybrid vehicles on the market — and theoretically, the same case could be made against them, too.
But is this Honda’s (and the other car companies’) fault? Or does the fault lie with the federal government?
For it is not Honda — or any other automaker — that puts the mileage numbers on the window sticker.
It is the federal government.
The government — in this case, the EPA — takes a new car, then runs it through its test loop. Mileage figures are posted on the window sticker based on these tests, which are by nature subjective. Hence the caveat, in plain standard English: Your mileage will vary. Note, not may.
Will.
The exact wording is as follows:
“Your actual mileage will vary depending on how you drive and maintain your vehicle [italics added].”
And just under the big “best case” mileage numbers, in smaller type, one finds a range of “expected mileage.” As an example, this week I am test-driving a new Fiat 500C. The “best case” number is 32 MPG highway. But underneath this is a range of “expected mileage” between a low of 26 MPG and an even higher high of 38 MPG.
In other words, your mileage will vary.
Unfortunately for Honda — and potentially every other seller of hybrid cars and perhaps cars, period — there are a lot of people out there who cannot read and comprehend the meaning of plain English and worse, assume everything the government tells them must be true, since it’s the government that’s telling it to them. Thus, they become angry when reality disabuses them — but unfortunately, they channel their anger toward the wrong party.
Here is the truth about the Civic hybrid — and all hybrids:
About the Author
Eric Peters is an automotive columnist and author of Automotive Atrocities: The Cars You Love to Hate (Motor Books International) and a new book, Road Hogs.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (102) | Leave a comment
More Articles by Eric Peters
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http://spectator.org/archives/2012/02/03/honda-hounded
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Brian Mc| 2.3.12 @ 6:54AM
"The contents of this cup is HOT"
Brian Mc| 2.3.12 @ 7:02AM
Ms. Peters might want to consider that tea and why it has failed to make her regular. Or, she could file a suit against Mozart since her children turned out to be just as dumb as she is.
PaulyD| 2.3.12 @ 10:06AM
Two can play at this game. If enough people start filing claims in small claims court, it will become cost effective for Honda to organize a legal team to start challenging the claims. It is rare for lawyers to participate in small claim courts (which is usually an advantage for all parties), but if millions of dollars in the aggregate are involved, they will be there.
Once they show up, they will raise the same points Eric Peters raised as a defense. The small claims court may see it Honda's way once those points are brought into evidence.
Need clarification| 2.3.12 @ 2:23PM
Mr. Peters the author writes,
"For it is not Honda -- or any other automaker -- that puts the mileage numbers on the window sticker.
It is the federal government." (he says EPA)
Okay. I may be the only dunce here who was unaware of this. Here is what I thought: I thought that the numbers -- understanding fully well may vary -- were posted from collaboration with various MPG testors.
In other words, there is no way Ford, Toyota, Audi, Volvo, or Honda is going to allow posted MPG sticker numbers unless the automaker is rather confident in them.
It is a fine point but it is not like the automaker is unaware then of what the EPA is deciding/posting as the MPG stats, or? The automaker could wrangle long and hard prior to an auto's new release for sale (like the upcoming Ford Escape in April 2012).
This is not to say that I agree at all with Ms. Peters case nor the decision. I also see this court decision as problematic.
But ask at the office today and next week: How may of your coworkers think that the EPA slaps those MPG numbers on the sticker? Most will tell you they believe the automaker does.
Lost| 2.3.12 @ 4:33PM
I believe the EPA does not test the cars, they determine the guide lines of how to test the cars for MPG. Does this leave room for fudging of numbers, sure.
Jaime Balandros| 2.4.12 @ 7:17AM
"In other words, there is no way Ford, Toyota, Audi, Volvo, or Honda is going to allow posted MPG sticker numbers unless the automaker is rather confident in them."
Sounds to me like the automaker is confident in them. They say the mileage WILL vary.
trundle| 2.4.12 @ 3:31PM
So, Jaime and everyone else here emphasizing the "may vary," why post any benchmark numbers at all?
Think.
How do you define "will vary?"
What does that really mean?
You buy a ticket to a ice hockey game but the arena management says in print on the back of the ticket, "Well, yes we see that you have a valid ticket, but our staff at the doors will admit or deny entry -- your ability to access the event 'will vary' - possession of this ticket does not guarantee admission."
You are with your wife on your anniversary at a nice restaurant, the menu looks very good, you've made your selections, the hostess has returned to kitchen to return with your dinner, but, as you glance over to the wall you read a sign that says, "While we have a menu and our hostesses has taken your specific order, what actually arrives on your table for consumption will vary."
You purchase an airline ticket to take you to Los Angeles, California from Logan in Boston. But the back of this passenger airline ticket reads, "Actual final destinations will vary."
If you absolutely must post them, and if you are unsure that your MPG number at Ford, Toyota, Audi, Volvo, or Honda round downwards on every number by 15 - 25%. If the auto produced then over-performs on city, highway, or both, with real driver/owners racking up the miles all across the county then the automaker comes out smelling like a rose -- and the accolades will resonate throughout the automotive industry.
"Will vary" is the wiggle room that an over-litigated world now offers every nuance of your life.
How about your bedside alarm clock? Does it have a caveat on it: "Performance will vary." Try that one on your boss when you are late to work twice in this long, dark, dreary winter.
You don't seem to understand that "will vary" is shorthand for saying, "well, just about anything goes." And then it is just plain deceitful.
I am for no posted MPG estimates mandated by the EPA. Thankfully in a free market with countless automotive journals in tangible old school print and countless more that are online, lets let the free market of information be the informant to the consumer on how well or poorly these autos perform in the real world of every day driving.
Hundreds of present-day auto blogs do this just fine. They, with reader/auto owner comments, do the far superior job of aiding the consumer already.
JoshInHB| 2.5.12 @ 12:35PM
Two points:
1) The MPG numbers are mostly a fantasy and it's not may vary but rather, you won't get anywhere close to these numbers. Their only value is as a comparison point between vehicles.
2) That fantasy is driven by CAFE standards. Which would not be met if realistic MPG numbers where used. As such, this is an example of regulatory capture, wherein a 'standard' imposed by the federal government leads to a worse outcome for consumers - in this case mis information about the mpg that the average driver will experience.
JoshInHB| 2.5.12 @ 12:30PM
Two can play at this game. If enough people start filing claims in small claims court, it will become cost effective for Honda to organize a legal team to start challenging the claims. It is rare for lawyers to participate in small claim courts (which is usually an advantage for all parties), but if millions of dollars in the aggregate are involved, they will be there.
Lawyers are not, generally, allowed to represent clients in small claims cases.
The proper course of action would be to lobby state legislature to limit the small claims courts jurisdicition in cases like this.
Better yet, would be for automakers to stop the feds from posting bs mileage claims.
Quartermaster| 2.3.12 @ 6:35PM
"Kalifornia courts" - pretty much says it all.
Appleby| 2.3.12 @ 7:05AM
I argue for a Truth In Plain English Amendment to this and all government "mandates". Just as they have finally managed to require the airlines to stop publishing FIVE DOLLARS ROUND TRIP TO LONDON! fares which, when all the fees, service charges, taxes and other extras are added in makes the true cost FIVE HUNDRED DOLLARS EACH WAY, good only on flights leaving at 4:00 a.m. on Thursdays in Leap Year, so should the stickers on cars print the truth in large letters in plain English. I suggest, "Although the Government requires us to claim that this car will get 50 mpg in such a way that you will believe this is COMMONPLACE, truth compels us to disclose that this car will get 50 MPG only between 5:00 a.m. and 5:30 a.m. downhill in a tailwind when you are driving it in a small town on the prairies."
daddio| 2.3.12 @ 9:27AM
Here's a heretical thought. Just abolish the damn stickers! There! Problem solved!
canuckistani| 2.3.12 @ 9:57AM
Yes, ignorance is bliss, daddio.
She won because Honda changed the game and didn't tell their customers. This was small claims court: so they did not tell HER. What could be more American than one person's quest to have their grievances heard and being redressed? this wasn't a class action, no backroom dealing and she has published all of her evidence and submissions online for free. Tort reform in its purest incarnation.
True cons should be applauding this victory. But some are not, curious. Perhaps because she has posted her evidence for free has made the true capitalists on here uneasy.
canuckistani| 2.3.12 @ 10:06AM
What is preventing automakers from posting the real-world stats? Just asking.
George S| 2.3.12 @ 10:32AM
The DOT and the EPA. These car companies have to maintain fleet-wide average mandated by law. So they fudge as much as the regulations allow to overstate the mpg. This way, they can continue to sell cars people want instead of the electric cracker cookers that Obama "wants" us to buy.
When do we face the Truth?| 2.3.12 @ 2:46PM
No, I am no greenie or lune, but I want this mythical threshold of no better than 20 city/32 highway smashed right through. The engineering ought to be there in year 2012 because that is what my 1983 VW Rabbit could get. And it is still what today's VW Rabbit/Golf gets.
That makes no sense.
Yes, I know that the cars are heavier due to safety items (some we could jettison?) and fuel emissions equipment. Yes, all true. But aerodynamics alone are huge when it comes to the physics of moving down the road with less required propulsion.
(I frankly don't care what a car looks like if it will average 55 MPG between city and highway. Remember how one car company covered those back wheels to increase aerodynamics? Sure, to most of us that looks odd and unappealing. But who cares? If it works, do it.)
Why this 40 years dearth of no real MPG smashing breakthroughs aside from the Toyota Prius and Honda Accent?
I think we're being gipped off more often than not.
We're not pushing the envelope.
And if you just love guzzling gas and say it's your right to do so, well, consider:
1. Consider that your dollars spent at the pump directly go to fund the advancement of muslim causes all over the world.
2. Your dollars on gas and oil products directly go to the construction of even more mosques around the globe.
3. Your funding of many dubious businesses and countries (not just in the Middle East --- Mexico, Nigeria, Venezuela, Russia, etc.) leads directly to the monthly destabilization of our world. These petrodollars are spent on countless projects that make your world unsafe.
4. Your purchases make it so much easier for our government officials to be bribed and manipulated (like the puppets they are) by big lobbyists working directly for Saudi Princes and countless despots in the Gulf Region. How? These sheik dudes have billions of $$; what's it to them if they have to bribe a few U.S. Senators with a few million here or there. (And you know that they do -- same in England, Canada, Australia....) They have money; the corruption and bought decisions that impact your life will go on ad infinitum.
5. You are directly funding global jihad. You are funding your own demise.
6. Your purchase of gas and oil have directly lead to the deaths of U.S and coalition men and women (and countless civilians in the aid efforts) due to the endless roadside bombs with detonators and other devices -- you fund. Ask a guy in Landstuhl, the San Antonio Burn Center, or Fort Hood's Hospital today what he thinks of this as he's dealing with no left arm and no left leg and half charred body.
As you fill up your 15.5 gallon tank three times a month or maybe four (and count both cars you own), you are funding all of this. Me too.
And I've had it.
I am sick of it.
We need to stop being so goddamned selfishly stupid.
c. j. acworth| 2.3.12 @ 7:07AM
Mrs. Peters is a lawyer, so there is no doubt that she understood the plain english of the milage sticker. I wonder if this lawsuit was planned even before she bought the car. Not content with the "green car" rebate provided her by the taxpayers, she planned all along to lower her purchace price further with a frivolous suit.
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 7:21AM
This little piece of information is left out of Peter's article...
"Honda has acknowledged that the battery on the 2006 through 2008 Civic hybrids "may deteriorate and eventually fail" earlier than expected. When the battery pack can't be charged to full capacity, the car relies more on the gas engine and fuel economy suffers."
Honda admits that a manufacturing fault is at least partially responsible for the less than advertised gas mileage Peters got. If this is indeed true I don't see a problem with them losing the case.
SC Mike| 2.3.12 @ 7:37AM
Just because the batter fails earlier than expected does not mean it’s Honda’s fault or responsibility to repair unless Honda provides a warranty covering the battery for that long. Batteries do deteriorate out as a function of time and charging cycles. Unless there’s some sort of wonderful warranty, it’s the owner’s responsibility to repair or replace.
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 7:47AM
When a product fails prior to its advertised lifespan the manufacturer is indeed responsible. This is not a case of individual failure, which would be the responsibility of the owner if there is no warranty coverage, but an acknowledged manufacturing defect. The product failed to perform as advertised, at least in part, because of Honda's poor quality control. Gas mileage was impacted because batteries failed long before Honda said they would.
PolishKnight| 2.3.12 @ 9:43AM
This shows why a trial has two sides. I googled the case and saw the same thing: This was about a manufacturer defect with a current class action suit. The woman wanted to do better and even Honda admitted liability when they asked the judge to award her the same as the class action suit agreement (which was mostly sucked up by attorney's fees, of course.)
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 11:35AM
Exactly, Honda admitted fault. The question was how much was that fault worth. Perhaps 10K is too much, but by Honda's own admission she was owed something.
PolishKnight| 2.3.12 @ 11:39AM
IMO, the whole point of buying the hybrid is to improve gas mileage (it's not about looks!) So considering the loss of value (who wants to buy a crappy used hybrid from her?) AND the loss of gas money because it wasn't functioning right + time and inconvenience, I say Honda got off CHEAP.
I also read in the case that Honda brought up a lot of cheap shots such as saying because she went to a dealer, it wasn't "their" fault that the car didn't work right because they're locally owned and operated (in other words, Honda tried to throw their dealers under the bus for something that they caused at the factory) which is REAL slimy, IMO. It's the kind of nonsense I've heard of car manufacturers trying to get out of warranty repairs.
2Anglico| 2.3.12 @ 9:56AM
Tom, "Honda's poor quality control"?, Honda products are some of the highest quality products in the world. If you are talking about small gasoline engines, they probably make the BEST in the whole world. Why not sue Obama Motors for the crap they peddle? Talk about "poor quality control".
This case is agenda driven.
The only fault I find in Honda is that they got hoodwinked into making a battery powered car in the first place. You reap what you sow.
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 11:30AM
Angilico,
I accept that Honda makes wonderful engines. However, they did not make wonderful battery packs for the hybrid Civics. Their QC sucked in this case.
"This case is agenda driven."
Yeah, she wanted to be made whole from the losses Honda's shoddy product cost her.
"The only fault I find in Honda is that they got hoodwinked into making a battery powered car in the first place. You reap what you sow."
Ok, and by making a shoddy hybrid it is costing them money. Thus they sow.
Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 2.3.12 @ 7:07AM
Soon, there will be a Heather Peter's Law, similar to the Lily Ledbetter law, that if a woman buys a product, her option to sue is maintained as long as she or her spouse can breath.
When I first heard about this lawsuit I thought, only a woman could be that dumb. But she's clever in another way simply taking advantage of a court system that allows for such frivolities without consequence.
The case was weak but her strategy worked so far.
The shows a major flaw in our system. Cases can be launched with little or no evidence in the hopes of getting a small pay off.
As the article points out Honda posted what was required by law. Since they followed the law, then the only flaw was Heather Peters, whose stupidity at using a product has now been rewarded.
We are becoming a mutant society.
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 7:25AM
How exactly is her case weak? Honda admitted to a manufacturing defect with the battery that lowers gas mileage.
R Martin| 2.3.12 @ 7:25AM
I suspect Ms. Peters shopped for and found a leftist judge. The bigger issue is how silly government regulations burden everyone with expense and aggravation.
Jerry| 2.3.12 @ 7:50AM
From what I've read about this case in the past, is that she(a lawyer) knew that the rules of evidence in small claims court are such that she would have a much better chance of winning, with the intent of requesting class status for a further class-action lawsuit. Of course, the result of this will be a tremendous blow to the automotive industry, a pittance awarded to all of the 'green-minded heroes' who bought these pieces of junk, and boatloads of money to some fork-tongued lawyers who will be "doing it for the little victims". Oh, and the EPA will sail merrily along, causing more such unintended consequences with their foolish regulations.
R Martin| 2.3.12 @ 8:22AM
Ms. Peters was interviewed by Stuart Varney yesterday on Fox Business (video available on Varney's website). She disclosed, promoted actually, her own website urging other Honda owners not to settle with Honda but rather to pursue her small claims court route. Since lawyers are not permitted in small claims court, she will help you with the effort for a modest fee of $50. Apparently the level of interest has crashed her website. Ms. Peters is clearly less concerned with gas mileage than with feathering her own nest.
Wisely, Honda has appealed.
PolishKnight| 2.3.12 @ 9:57AM
A $50 fee IS modest.
Occam's Tool| 2.3.12 @ 12:06PM
50 X 5000=250,000.
PolishKnight| 2.3.12 @ 1:15PM
Assuming she got that number, it's STILL modest compared to the rate that John Edwards charged for his ambulance chasing.
wukong| 2.3.12 @ 10:30AM
I hired a lawyer to represent me in Small Claims Court. This forced my neighbor who sued me to hire his own lawyer. It was expensive, but I had less difficulty with this neighbor afterwords.
Lawrence of Lutz| 2.3.12 @ 8:35AM
Government and the company sales department should have known not to use the "ideal milage" as the come on. Government schools spent a lot of time teaching us not to think about how the product was tested. Get the government out of the car business.
canuckistani| 2.3.12 @ 10:08AM
Let them self-regulate a la Iaccoca in the 70's?
No thanks.
What about lead? It's still the cheapest octane booster out there.
George S| 2.3.12 @ 10:46AM
By "self-regulate" you actually mean "have to compete". The purpose of all the crash tests and MPG requirements are meant to keep innovators out of the market and protect GM, Chrysler and Ford, thus allowing the UAW to have the power to negotiate without fear of free market consequences to higher priced cars.
But it couldn't keep out state sponsored Toyota and Honda. Result? GM goes broke choking on its pension benefits funding since it cannot compete with newcomers.
Obama rescues GM by forcing us taxpayers to foot the bill for the retired employees -- even though our representatives were not present at the bargaining sessions. How's that for self-regulation.
TrueBlue | 2.3.12 @ 1:53PM
Exactly, most of those regulations have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with keeping individuals from breaking into the industry. What individual is going to have the cash to burn on a dozen test cars to send through all the regulation hoops before they even start producing the cars for sale? And that's assuming none of them come back under the requirements.
This makes it so any innovations created by people who don't work for the various auto companies have to be sold to those companies in order to make any money, and most of the time the person gets pennies compared to what the auto company makes.
Remove the regulations and people can then buy cars based on what kind of safety features they think are necessary. Personal responsibility, personal choice. Given the number of safety features that people have gotten used to, they WILL still pay for the majority of them, but the ones that are useless government junk can get tossed out. That'll lighten the weight of the cars, and give you better gas mileage.
Kingofthenet| 2.3.12 @ 2:29PM
If this means more Republicans buy cars WITHOUT Air Bags and anti-lock brakes, I am all for it...Heck i'll even throw in 'No Helmet Laws' for Republican Motorcycle drivers for FREE!
George S| 2.3.12 @ 2:52PM
Are you implying that without air bags and anti-lock brakes more highway deaths will result? More fatalities occur when the vehicle weight decreased in spite -- in spite -- of those devices.
So if you are concerned with safety, then you have to disregard MPG requirements and let auto makers beef up the cars. And what would be the downside? More fuel being used? No. If cars burn more fuel, people will drive less. If you make cars that are more fuel efficient, people will drive more. That was proven ad infinitum (why do you think most consumers of medical care are those with the best employer plans?).
On another note: if I choose to assume my own risk, then what is wrong with paying for air bags and ALS for myself and letting someone else choose to save the money and not buy them? Ah, that means we get to make our own decisions. That will not do, Comrade.
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 6:46PM
Highway deaths per mile driven have been dropping for decades.
http://www-fars.nhtsa.dot.gov/Main/index.aspx
http://www.publicpurpose.com/hwy-fatal57+.htm
Ted| 2.3.12 @ 8:45AM
Well, a certain pox on Honda if they refuse to appeal this. It would seem odd to hold them accountable for posting the results of a test they did not conduct yet were legally required to post.
canuckistani| 2.3.12 @ 10:00AM
....and posted on their commercials and posted on their website and posted on posts.....
Strawman argument when the entire Hybrid campaign was about using EPA stats to sell cars.
Nice try,
TrueBlue | 2.3.12 @ 1:54PM
Except they are REQUIRED to make those exact same numbers known, BY LAW. This counts even in their commercials, which is why they make the little disclaimer at the end.
Fred Farkel| 2.3.12 @ 8:46AM
Repeal the Laws of Thermodynamics. They just get in the way of ideal regulations set by the dimwitted and supid bureaucrats in the gummint fantasyland.
LarryK| 2.3.12 @ 8:58AM
Hey, the car hucksters spout all kinds of "claims" to sell their wares. If the product doesn't perform as advertised isn't that fraud or at the very least deceit?
I know let the buyer beware.
canuckistani| 2.3.12 @ 10:04AM
She went to small claims court. Period.
I suspect now you want tort reform for this level too?
Maybe the individual has rights in this country afterall and if corporations are people, then they have to abide by these standards as well and face the music from time to time.
This is a fantastic populist victory. The fraud in the battery market is widespread, laden with pork, and undermined by sleezy Chinese handlers with American corporate abettors.
Blame BHO, you will, but he was nowhere to be seen when Toyota and GM conspired to corner the battery market during Junior's tenure.
WickedDickie--Virginia| 2.3.12 @ 9:36AM
R. Martin must be joking about shopping around for a leftist judge. This happened in Colleefornia, no? And, Honda is appealing in the same state? Funnee! caveat venditor
Mike M| 2.3.12 @ 9:51AM
Your milage may vary, but the reaction from bloodsucking lawyers and politicians won't.
Obama will get his wish - we'll all be riding bicycles.
Cookie Sewell| 2.3.12 @ 10:00AM
Hmm - my 2009 Fit was supposed to get 27 mpg around town and 33 mpg highway. But in service it gets 32 mpg in town and up to 45 mpg highway and DOES vary.
It went through a mandatory recall for weak valve springs.
Should I sue them because it overperforms?
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 11:33AM
You should sue them if parts die before they claimed they would due to design error.
George S| 2.3.12 @ 10:57AM
The Stimulus created 3 million jobs. Actual jobs created will vary based upon your ability to distill bullshit from fact.
My health plan will save the average family $2,500 a year. Your savings will vary depending upon how much you affect other people's voting decisions.
Wouldn't be great to sue Obama in small claims court?
SpiralArchitect| 2.3.12 @ 4:22PM
Based on precident he would not show.
Bob S| 2.3.12 @ 11:18AM
Unfortunately, while mileage may vary, idiots don't.
That's why they're idiots in the first place.
But we already knew that.
Glad to see Mr. Peters' articles getting a wider audience. As the AmSpec loses its audience apologizing for Mitt/Newt/Rick, they're gaining elsewhere.
Russel| 2.3.12 @ 11:50AM
Got an e-mail of the top five Stella Awards ( so named in honor of the hot coffee spilling , McDucks suing dim wit ) . There must be some way to run a judge out of town if he accepts these suits . They are a disgrace to common sense and waste valuable resources .
Kingofthenet| 2.3.12 @ 2:26PM
The 'Dimwit' who got McDonalds to pay her over a half million for her spilling coffee, i wish I was that dumb.
Fred Farkel| 2.3.12 @ 8:24PM
You are.
Paul from SA| 2.3.12 @ 11:27AM
I have a very high opinion of Honda, but they like others use false advertising, and should have to pay when they lie and deceive.
I'd like to sue Microsoft... for all the man-hours of labor spent trying to fix their OS problems. Then maybe we can recover some of the trillions we were overcharged for the flawed operating systems.
Kingofthenet| 2.3.12 @ 11:29AM
Wow, Conservatives backing manufacturers selling shoddy goods, instead of the little guy...News @ 11.They COULD have replaced her battery pack, tuned her car up and explain how to get the mileage she wanted, but they wanted to go the 'My Way' route instead they got the 'Highway'(To Hell)
PolishKnight| 2.3.12 @ 11:57AM
I was thinking that as well, KOFN. Yes, I know that liberals sometimes engage in overprotection of the consumer to keep their consumer friendly reputation they have but conservatives sometimes shoot themselves in the foot with their "caveat emptor" stance. It's then pretty funny when many of these big businesses such as Wall Street and even much of corporate America cuddles up to Obama because they can get crony privileges and subsidies. Yep. Real smart.
TW in SC| 2.3.12 @ 12:21PM
"Energy costs will necessarily skyrocket."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlTxGHn4sH4
(Your mileage will vary)
(If your in the tank for the national socialists)
Occam's Tool| 2.3.12 @ 12:08PM
Lawyer's make pretty good eating with the right BBQ sauce. Taste like snake, which tastes like chicken. Since they ain't human, ain't cannibalism.
TW in SC| 2.3.12 @ 12:16PM
By winning this lawsuit, Heather Peters has demonstrated that she prefers to be a victim, is not a very smart buyer, can't read and probably has problems with every facet of her life that are all "other people's fault".
Heather, what part of "Your mileage WILL vary" didn't you understand? Are you the one who bought the "real" submarine in the back of the comic book and found out it was a cardboard box? Do you stand for hours on a cold street corner thinking that you'll guess where the pea is under the shell THIS TIME?
Then, to the EPA....and I'm not defending Heather (I'm Stupid) Peters, but...seriously....these mileage "ratings" I've been reading for decades are all crap. You know it and yet you insist on having them on there. But the suspicion here is that you have intentionally manipulated the numbers to attract buyers to hybrids. Caveat Emptor has always applied and with the national socialist agenda out in full force, it's especially appropriate now.
Kingofthenet| 2.3.12 @ 12:31PM
You can't be that stupid, please give a 'Little' credit to Honda's high priced Attorneys. I am pretty they brought up that whole "YMMV" thing, most likely she could prove her car could NEVER reach those targets.
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 6:49PM
Honda admitted to selling cars with defective batteries which lowered gas mileage. How does that make Peters stupid? A defect in manufacturing causes a product to not perform as Honda advertised. Mileage varying does not explain a vehicle only achieving 60% of its EPA rating; defective batteries does.
Pat| 2.3.12 @ 2:40PM
A better theme for this judicial activism nonsense might be: “Your Justice May Vary”. Since we Americans are the perennial victims of our own laws, we can expect Honda’s lawyers to retaliate starting with legal disclaimers signed by all new car buyers attesting to being warned, in writing, that expected gas mileage on your brand new battery, wind, solar and gas powered Hybrid investment in happy motoring may vary.
Or, possibly Honda will go the pharmaceutical route and describe all the potential disappointments should you decide to buy their product. We’re all familiar by now with television ads for drug side effects like “Zipadil – in rare cases may cause hair loss, kidney failure, brain damage, permanent amnesia, heavy nose hair growth, enlarged ears and ingrown toenails – contact your doctor immediately if such symptoms persist.”. After viewing these ads it’s puzzling why anyone would ever consider ingesting Zipadil.
So, future Honda ads could go the “ in rare cases, side effects may include poor gas mileage, excessive tire wear, sudden loss of steering, toxic fumes, itchy upholstery and rust spots – contact your dealer immediately if any of these symptoms occur” route. It may not be fair, it may be downright ridiculous, but under our American legal system: Your Justice May Vary.
rnd| 2.3.12 @ 3:22PM
Pat, you are right. We create an entire new line of work for radio and TV ad announcers -- those fleet of tongue who can speak 400 lawyer legalese disclaimer words within 2.4 seconds. Sort of like auctioneers.
This will further help the government "pad" the employment numbers.
Pat| 2.3.12 @ 4:20PM
rnd: That's funny and very appropriate. Or, perhaps new car stickers could carry a warning from the Surgeon General in tiny letters stating: "Blind faith in posted gas mileage claims can lead to ulcers, severe depression, uncontrolled bouts of anger and mild hair loss".
rnd| 2.3.12 @ 8:06PM
Yes, Pat, you are right on target once more. Due to the large amount of illiteracy present here (and all the illegals who cannot and have no need of learning English), the Surgeon General car disclaimers will have appropriate "symbols" to convey the slew of maladies that might well befall the "hapless" consumers. (just like those symbols on the cigarette packs)
Yet more new employment as a consequence -- for the Auto Artistic Design Warning Label Department staff.
Moe Blotz| 2.3.12 @ 2:58PM
Pipe Dream: Honda appeals the decision and the appeals court rules that the EPA is at fault and ordered to cease the phony mileage testing. . Hence, all EPA mandated stickers are forevermore removed and prohibited from residing on the windows of your prospective new ride.
Thom| 2.3.12 @ 3:38PM
I've never driven a vehicle that I could not exceed EPA Highway mileage figures for. I know plenty of people who can't get up to EPA mileage figures to save their life. When I drive their vehicles I get much better mileage thus the "dummy" behind the filth wheel has a great deal of bearing on the outcome but it gets worse ....
I've never put faith or bought a vehicle based on what the Environmental Police Agency says its mileage range is. Never. Here are just a few examples for that policy.
The EPA rated my 1989 passenger car at 30 MPG on the highway. A Co-worker owned a 1988 version of the same car and got 38 mpg on the road with four people and cargo in a 1000 mile trip to FL the year before I bought my 1989. I asked around among other people about the MPG they got with their model of same and got all kinds of numbers. Nothing like the mpg that Co-worker had got was in that range of MPGs. My 1989 right out of the box got over 35 mpg on the road in the summer with the AC on and one passenger and 28 mgp "around town". By the time it was fully broken in (around 50,000 miles), by my methods and with a few tweaks I had it up to over 40 mpg without the AC on during the Spring/Fall seasons. At 242,000 miles it still reaches the upper 30s under ideal conditions and the new reformulated (realistic) EPA ratings for the same car has downgraded its highway mileage to 28. The direct competitor to my car from another vendor with 25 more HP was rated 4 mpg better in 1989 and that might have been close to the truth for that car but for my model car, the number 3 seller in the US that year the EPA's MPG ratings have always been from another planet and grossly wrong.
A current Co-worker has one of those VW GTls (200 hp four cylinder vs. my 120 HP) and the EPA rates it at 28 mpg on the highway or the same as my car. He barely gets 25 mpg on the interstate day in and day out while I get a life time average of over 30 going back and forth to work with over two dozen stop lights in the 11 miles between home and work. Another Co¬worker's Ford Ranger, now defunctat Ford, is rated at 19 mpg on the highway. I drove it over 400 miles with a 400 lb load and passenger and got over 23 almost 24 mpg. Another acquaintance has one of these new cylinder management "government motors" type full sized pickups rated at 20 mpg on the highway and the best he can get is around that traveling over a 100 miles a day back and forth to work. A Prius owner at work gets about what the EPA says but then he changed out the tires for a softer ride and dropped 4 mpg off both City and Highway. Another Co-worker has a 2009 Fit. Rated 34 mpg on the highway, way less than the Civic Hybrid. His first trip was 42 mpg. He normally gets mid-forties and has gotten 50 mpg on a trip in the Fall with the AC off.
The Moral of the story here is that the EPA's ratings and how they derive those ratings has as much credibility as the Global Warming folk's predictions. Having looked into the actual test done for City, Highway testing and hearing these people even suggest that the Volt gets an effective 230 mpg is all I need to know about the usefulness of what comes out of the EPA.
The Civic in question has about the same HP as my 1989 and is a lot smaller and lighter. Without the 16 HP battery assist it should get near what the EPA says it gets on the highway without the “battery thing”. If it doesn’t well, the “dummy” behind the fifth wheel probably couldn’t get the EPA rating with the “battery assist” in the first place. At best what Honda owed this gold digger is replacement batteries which cost substantial less than what she got. Follow the money….
Just Tom| 2.3.12 @ 6:52PM
Those defective batteries are a cause of the diminished gas mileage. The motor charges the batteries, if the batteries does not hold its charge the motor works harder. The harder the motor works the lower the gas mileage. It really is pretty simple, which is why Honda lost.
Thom| 2.3.12 @ 8:31PM
If you normal car battery won't hold a charge the load on the system does the same thing but that load is tiny compared to running an AC on Full and the Civic Hybrid has a normal power gas engine with more than enough power to provide that load and get very high MPG if driven like an economy car. Driving a hybrid in very cold temperatures will do exactly the same thing as a defective battery. When enough gold diggers make hybrids even more expensive what limited benefit they can provide will be gone.
rnd| 2.3.12 @ 8:12PM
Thom, good for you and thanks for posting. Just tell us (I'm surely curious) what make and model 1989 car were you driving. I am a conservative driver and aim for good mileage while doing all I can to keep my vehicle tuned up to maximize the MPG performance. Yet I don't get those numbers on the road that you attain(ed) try as I might. Maybe I need to switch to what you are driving. Is it still made?
Thom| 2.3.12 @ 9:20PM
RND,
1989 Honda Accord, 4 cylinder 5 speed manual. The new models with 190 HP 4 cylinder engines are several hundred pounds heavier and the EPA rates them having a higher MPG than my 120 HP one. They won’t do what my car model can do. Actual MPG of the 2011 Honda Accord vs. the 1989 at the government site where it shows both EPA estimates and what people actually report will show you the problem I was referring to. The 2004 Accord, automatic was rated 34 on the highway. I drove a new one several hundred miles in AZ at temperatures in the 50s and barely broke 32 mpg. The person that owned it broke it in the way I do and other tweaks and when it had 36000 on it I drove it across country from AZ to Va. Average mpg was 37.44 in July. I hit over 40 from parts of NM to the Mississippi on I40. That’s well over a thousand miles coming down hill all the way however. I got 32 mpg at 75 mph from Phoenix up grade to Flagstaff and into NM several hundred miles. On flat ground that car will deliver better than EPA but it can’t do 30% over like my 89 can. Another Co-worker bought a 5 speed 2012 Civic rated 36 on the road. The automatic is rated 39. She drives it “like she had just stolen it” and still gets 36 MPG back and forth to work. I’d get mid-forties fully broken in. I plan to get the same car in a 2013 model. The 3 MPG advantage in the automatics don’t seem to show in practice which speaks to one of the problems with people who buy automatics and drive them like Vets….. Look at the variances in VW TDI actual MPG and you see what the primary factor in MPG is and it isn’t the car.
The bottom line with most vehicles is you let them drive themselves (cruise control) and don’t try to be the first guy to the next stop light. When you see the light change to red, back off on the speed and let is coast a bit. If you “drive it” to the stop light you will end up breaking hard and then having to accelerate more than if you let it slow down (in neutral with a manual trans) and then slowly bring it back up if the light goes green before you get to the light. Every time you press on the gas pedal you cut your MPG. I know plenty of people who run their AC in the Spring and Fall just because and when winter temps hit you are going to lose 10-15% from that so they never see what their car can really do when allowed to. The lowest MPG the 89 got was 22 mpg in Baltimore in stop and go traffic (a stop light every 555 ft (each block)) in the summer with three people in the car and gear and the AC going full blast. 22 to 41 is a bit of a range for a car the EPA says only gets 28 on their Highway course. There are lots of tweaks to improve the base MPG of any vehicle but one thing is relatively constant that many drivers simply ignore when they see that EPA sticker and then find out it ate so. Feeding 200 HP potential in one car isn’t going to produce the same real world MPG against one that only produces 120 HP all else being equal. The EPA says the VW GTI gets the same MPG as the 1989 Honda Accord. 80 HP difference there and it shows up in actual user use. What the EPA publishes has a lot in common with what the BLS publishes.
rnd | 2.4.12 @ 3:57PM
Thom, thank you. Thank you for taking the time to respond and the very fine great detail. You obviously spend a lot of time with this and give it your careful attention. We consumers ought to more frequently, with our high-end consumer products, invest some of the careful consideration that you do. It helps hold the builder accountable while also providing empirical, real praise when truly deserved. I should think that real engineers involved would then take some professional pride for their work.
I try to encourage all members of my family and relatives to keep a faithful log of gallons tanked into the car and miles travelled --- to catch when a car is in need of a tune up or attention. But also to determine what is baseline truth in terms of what the auto producer (and EPA?) tout versus what is real world daily driving reality.
Thank you for the detailed response. You are obviously a good auto enthusiast. Good for you.
By BLS do you mean the Bureau of Labor Statistics? I am not sure.
"Like she has just stolen it, " from your coworker with the Honda Civic 2012 manual transmission model. That means she's driving it lickity split (just too fast) all the time? Thom, sorry, sometimes I don't always pick up on intended meanings. I ask because then averaging 39 MPG yet not being the best of drivers (if one is always jack rabbiting around town), is, yes, tremendously good. That would be good to hear about this new Honda Civic edition. I am trying to encourage a sister to choose this very car with its high MPG rating as a selling point for her. (We are all tightening our belts; we are now all trending "Clark Howard" in our life habits)
Thank you. I wish all people could be so specific and clear in our various write-ups here. Vague (in all things) is never helpful. So, Thom, thank you.
Happy Trails and Happy Motoring!
justaguy| 2.3.12 @ 4:13PM
When I read about her lawsuit, I thought that a large part of it was the unexpected quick drop in battery efficiency which caused a drop in mileage. I do not think that Honda advises nor do most people understand the current limited life of batteries. When battery capacity goes down after X number of cycles, the car uses the engine more and more with lower mileage.
In a non-hybrid car, after many tens of thousands of miles, the engine wears and mileage goes down but the public understands and expects it. No one to my knowledge has sued because at 100,000 miles his Civic doesn't get the same mileage.
Honda, for obvious reasons, doesn't want to puncture the "green bliss" a hybrid owner expects from the virtue of driving an expensive status symbol. If Honda and likely Toyota are more upfront about battery life the whole experience of being green might disappear with it any sales.
SpiralArchitect| 2.3.12 @ 4:25PM
I can assure you that the mileage I see varies considerably from that promised by the window sticker.
I thought it was 'subjective' & 'will vary'.
Woody| 2.3.12 @ 5:05PM
Did this fellow even read or research the case? Honda actively made changes to reduce the car's mileage by lowering it's duration for running on batteries. Had they not done this, the batteries would have had to be replaced under warranty because their lifespan in the original electrical operation cycle for the car was grossly overestimated. Honda took the underhanded measure of detuning the car's computer, effectively halving the fuel economy.
Your mileage will vary, indeed.
Kingofthenet| 2.3.12 @ 6:13PM
Wow, I did not know that, so they were looking at 200,000+ car owners needing NEW battery pack on the Company dime, so they just adjusted the cars computers to extend the life till it was outside the warranty period, I hope they are FORCED to replace every one of them.
Thom| 2.3.12 @ 5:13PM
Woody,
"effectively halving the fuel economy." Without the batteries in operation at all that car will get on the highway what the EPA says it gets. It will not drop in half even in the city where you get the most boost from the hybrid thing.
Brubaker| 2.3.12 @ 5:29PM
Heather Peters has done a great service for consumers across this land. Of course mileage varies, Eric. Every sentient being understands that, but that's not the point.
The window sticker is just part of a concerted sales pitch for the virtues of hybrid autos. In a hundred different ways, people are led to believe that hybrids will just naturally produce extremely high gas mileage -- dispite all evidence to the contrary.
Obama and his tools in the eco-nut industry continue to exploit the naiveté of large numbers of consumers in their efforts impose their vision of what Americans should be driving.
Ms. Peters successful lawsuit serves notice that both the government and the manufacturers need to cut the hyperbole and provide more realistic performance estimates.
Fred Farkel| 2.3.12 @ 8:19PM
You are a moron.
Gerard L. Owens| 2.3.12 @ 8:48PM
Precedents set in California should only apply in...Venezuela? Cuba?
Howsyer| 2.3.12 @ 10:17PM
Trying to excuse Honda by blaming the EPA is a red herring.
Check out some of Honda's commercials for the Civic Hybrid on youtube. One ends with the tag line 'The all new 50 mile per gallon Civic Hybrid from Honda". Nothing about 'will vary', just a flat claim of 50MPG.
POST American| 2.3.12 @ 11:06PM
"Globalists are even saying that Japan,
post Fukishima, is a 'good thing'. Seems
they find Japan 'too closed'
(ie too Japanese).
With the plunging demographic in
the wake of 2 decades on of IMF
subversions ---and the radiation issue
---they say, this is a perfect oppurtunity
to open little Japan to MASS RED
Chinese immigration."
TRUE
Elsewhere, we hope one and all caught that
item on little Peru having some 400,000
young women sterilized via vaccines
in 2009 ----as that country is being set
up as the RED China-Globalist hub in
South America.
---------EUGENICS REALLY IS GENOCIDE--------
----------------------------------------------TRULY
Tim the Enchanter| 2.6.12 @ 4:05PM
Huh?
Mcbain| 2.4.12 @ 5:49AM
If corporations are people, imagine how you would feel if the government required you to do something and then allowed people to sue you for doing what they required you to do. This verdict makes no sense. It would only make sense if she was sueing the government instead of the auto company.
trundle| 2.4.12 @ 4:16PM
Mcbain: Please consider.
Except that the large businesses (like the big, big automakers) are really more in cahoots with government than you wish to admit (or we all really know). Sure, companies' leadership wants to whine and moan and act like they are for you, the little guy, the consumer.
Every now and again there will be a well-placed, strategical, surgical "whine," "moan," or "grump" coming from these large corporate entities decrying government regulations that handicap their 1. local hiring, 2. not producing overseas, 3. forcing layoffs, etc. This will be timed and placed to achieve some media splash & public/consumers' attention.
But you are an older guy now. Do you really believe this? Or do you think it a charade?
Um, are they really that concerned with governmental maneuverings? (the top 15% of any Fortune 1000 company's leadership/management) Do they really give a cat's whisker?
Honda, probably like all the big automakers that sell in North America is probably way too comfy cozy close to the EPA and other government alleged agencies/regulations.
As just one example, these auto stickers with EPA data have been around already on our cars/auto car lots for 32-34? years? More? This is a long, long time.
Your point is well taken. I would just ask that we all consider: Do these behemoth corporations really have top leadership (focus on the leadership, not the lower 80% of the corporate employees who don't make the regional/national/global decisions) that wants smaller government, less regulation, less government intrusions?
I remain unconvinced. Odd as it is, top corporate leaders, in my opinion, are quite content to keep a staus quo of a lot of government intrusion.
Petronius| 2.4.12 @ 1:53PM
Mommy Government told Heather, Honda gets XX MPG. And because government is her Mommy, she invoked that as guaranteed. Big bad Honda lied. And every left coast overgrown child demands to be satisfied. Where does it stop? I'm into high end audio. And I can't wait for the day when some guy in my hobby of an extreme liberal bent loads up a Prius with a 1000 watt RMS amp and a string of transducers that won't make it to Starbucks and back on a charge with the AC running, sues and collects when expectations aren't met. The big one can't hit soon enough.
Richard Baker| 2.4.12 @ 7:05PM
When I sold Fords in Florida, I always made sure that my customers clearly understood the mileage numbers whether the range, high or low, or the average on the Monroney stickers on the side glass. These numbers are mandated and approved by the Federal government and are the ONLY numbers the dealers are allowed to use. This ditzy woman obviously can't read. Since she can't sue the Feds she looks for someone else to sue. For my money, that she is a lawyer tells me that reality isn't her strong point. What a whiner.
Felix G| 2.5.12 @ 2:50PM
The left has found yet another way to destroy the economy. At least they have done it under the Obamanation's watch. I just hope the ill effects of this are seen before the next election, just as in the case of all of those power plants closing due to environmental regulations.
J.C.Eaton| 2.5.12 @ 8:29PM
As Mr. Beedle was heard to remark:" If the law thinketh that, the Law is a ass."
squalis| 2.6.12 @ 9:57AM
"there are a lot of people out there who cannot read and comprehend the meaning of plain English and worse, assume everything the government tells them must be true, since it's the government that's telling it to them. "
Unfortunately, too many of these people vote Dem.
trundle| 2.6.12 @ 2:46PM
No, unfortunately too many of these people exist.
W.C. Fields' most famous saying comes to mind.
Deserttrek| 2.6.12 @ 12:51PM
The news reports I saw stated the battery life was shorter than guaranteed, and the Honda software fixes had issues. Honda markets the product based on the EPA figures. The best solution is to get government out of the business and let an organization similar to Underwriters Labs run the tests and the free market can decide.
jstwndring| 2.6.12 @ 6:54PM
So, the judge is a moron.
Paul Peteren| 2.6.12 @ 10:39PM
Read the complaint, Honda has it coming for building a turd battery and trying to weasel out of standing behind it. Honda needs to be sued by every owner for the maximum amount. Maybe then they will learn to play square with their customers or pay dearly in court.
This case is not about MPG but not supporting a crappy battery.
Honda has an even bigger stinker coming down the pike over torque converters in their Odysseys, Pilots and Ridgelines that are failing prematurely. A class action suit has been file already too.
desotobill| 3.5.12 @ 9:12AM
I bought a 2007 Honda Civic EX, gasoline only version. On a trip from Dallas to San Antonio and back. I averaged 52 mpg. I wasn't in a hurry so I was doing about 60mph, It was never difficult to exceed the posted milage in that car city or highway. A great little car.
desotobill| 3.5.12 @ 9:12AM
I bought a 2007 Honda Civic EX, gasoline only version. On a trip from Dallas to San Antonio and back. I averaged 52 mpg. I wasn't in a hurry so I was doing about 60mph, It was never difficult to exceed the posted milage in that car city or highway. A great little car.
Paul Petersen| 5.24.12 @ 12:02PM
Eric,
You failed to research this issue, the problem with the Civic Hybrid not meeting mileage expectations was due to premature battery failure causing it to have almost no storage capacity to boost mileage.
Honda had already settled a class action law suit over this but the settlement amount was a paltry compared to the economic loss to replace the failed battery.
Heather decided to take matters into her own hands in small claims to recoup her actual economic loss in the value of the car due to a faulty battery.
Pete