Global Christianity is thriving, with one out of every 3 people
on earth professing Christian faith, according to a Pew study
released last month. But Christianity is shifting south. Two
percent of global Christians 100 years ago lived in sub-Saharan
Africa. Today, nearly a quarter do, equal to Europe’s percentage,
and soon surely to surpass it.
Insulated secular elites in the U.S. remain largely
clueless about thriving religion even in America, much less
globally. To the extent they notice domestic religion, it is often
the echoing voices of liberal Protestant elites who preside over
increasingly empty churches.
The Presbyterian Church (USA) and the Episcopal Church,
both of which are now likely below 2 million members, will have
their governing conventions this summer. They will probably
solidify their liberal trends, especially in deconstructing
traditional marriage. United Methodism, unique among the major
liberal Mainline denominations for having not compromised its
sexual teaching, will convene its General Conference in late April
in Tampa. Its U.S. membership of 7.6 million is shrinking, while is
overseas membership of 4.5 million, mostly in Africa, is
surging.
Meeting at the same convention center where Republicans
will nominate their presidential candidate a few months later, the
United Methodists perhaps will offer a little more excitement than
the GOP. Church liberals, as they have for 40 years, hope they will
finally overturn the denomination’s prohibition against same-sex
unions and clergy sexually active outside heterosexual marriage.
But 30 percent of the nearly 1000 delegates this year will come
from Africa, and another 10 percent from the Philippines, Europe,
and elsewhere overseas. The overseas churches, especially Africa,
are overwhelmingly conservative.
Liberals will need over 80 percent of U.S. delegates to
win. But about 200 of the 600 U.S. delegates are believed to be
evangelical, making the odds almost insurmountable. The U.S.
church’s only growing areas are in the relatively more conservative
South, while the U.S. church as a whole loses 50,000 to 70,000
members annually. The liberal West Coast and Northeast regions that
are most adamant about “full inclusion” are the fastest declining.
This year, the whole West Coast and Rocky Mountain region will have
only 32 delegates, or only about 3 percent of the total. The
Democratic Republic of the Congo will by contrast send 136. African
churches gained more than 1 million members since the last General
Conference, while the U.S. church lost about 300,000.
At over 12 million members and fast approaching 13
million, the United Methodist Church is now possibly the ninth
largest denomination in the world. And arguably it is the largest
global Protestant church. Catholics number over 1 billion, the
Russian Orthodox Church reputedly has 125 million, the Ethiopian
Church (Oriental Orthodox) has 48 million, the Church of England
claims 25 million, Germany’s Evangelical Church (Lutheran) reports
24 million, the Romanian Orthodox cites 23 million, the Church of
Nigeria (Anglican) has 18 million, and the U.S. Southern Baptist
Convention has over 16 million.
All of the larger Protestant churches are mostly national
churches. In contrast to a typical Southern Baptist governing
convention or a Church of England synod, United Methodism’s
uniquely international General Conference will sometimes appear
schizoid. Nigerians will denounce homosexuality as an abomination,
while U.S. transsexuals will insist on the holiness of cross
dressing and sex change operations. At a pre-General Conference
news briefing last week in Tampa, a liberal Minnesota bishop
presided over a panel on “holy conferencing” about civil
disagreement. But the panel ended with an angry lesbian activist
complaining she had been denied ordination 3 times and insisting
the time for dialogue was over. The time for justice is
now!
The Minnesota bishop, along with the briefing program,
described the chief political issues before United Methodism as
anti-Israel divestment, liberalized immigration, environmentalism,
and opposing the Afghanistan War, including nuclear disarmament.
The General Conference will focus especially on “repentance and
healing” over mistreatment of American indigenous people. One
church official described how Tampa was a “deportation center” for
Cherokees and other tribes during the early 19th century’s “Trail
of Tears.” He also bemoaned how an ancient Indian mound once blocks
away from the convention center had been destroyed a century ago to
extend Tampa’s Jackson Street, named for the president who deported
eastern tribes westward.
Meanwhile, an anti-Israel caucus invited participants at
the United Methodist briefing in Tampa to attend a session on
divestment proposals targeting companies that profit from Israel’s
“occupation,” such as Motorola, Caterpillar and Hewlett Packard. A
divestment spokeswoman faulted “campaign donations” and “arms
sales” for bolstering pro-Israel policies in the U.S. The briefing
was poorly attended, but the anti-Israel divestment proposal, aimed
at the church’s huge pensions fund, comes from the denomination’s
official lobby office. United Methodism already has officially
denounced the “occupation,” the spokeswoman pointed out, and its
bishops have opposed U.S. arms sales to Israel.
Focusing on the historic crimes of America and Western
Civilization, both real and perceived, is a favorite theme for
politically correct U.S. church bureaucrats. But these mostly
leftist themes will not resonate with most international delegates.
For Nigerians and other Africans, discussing the threat of radical
Islam would be more relevant to their own current situation. For
U.S. church liberals, any conversation potentially negative about
aspects of even political Islam would be anathema.
When African churches soon become a majority within the
once all U.S. denomination, overshadowing U.S. liberals, the
chronic debate about sex will finally recede. So too will the
preoccupation with U.S. political themes. The increasingly global
United Methodist Church will then confront new controversies. But
at least it will then reflect the concerns of millions of
Christians around the world, rather than the obsessions of a
cloistered, elite few in the U.S.
Bill Beahan| 1.31.12 @ 6:26AM
As the United Methodists move in a good direction the Southern Baptist Convention moves sharply left led by leftists such as Jonathan Merritt with his worship the creation more than the creator "green" movement.
Anna K. from Emory U.| 1.31.12 @ 9:56AM
Christianity in Africa is ugly, brutal, evil.
Have you not read of the number of children in Africa accused of witchcraft by pastors and then tortured or killed, often by family members?
Numerous investigative articles have been published on this horrific subject.
Pastors were involved in half of 200 cases of "witch children" and 13 churches were named in the case files, according to an article from the BBC.
Some of the churches involved are branches of international franchises. Their parishioners take literally the Biblical exhortation, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
The African practice of Christianity is just as barabaric as radical Islam in all of its ignorance and superstition.
God forbid that the African "Christians" influence the more civilized, liberal churches of the West.
Ebony and Ivory| 1.31.12 @ 10:09AM
Anna, you might add that Christian churches in Uganda have advocated the death penalty for homosexuals.
Is AmSpec voicing its approval of the primitive and cruel practices of African Christians? Looks that way.
albert constantine jr| 1.31.12 @ 2:33PM
Have the muslim clerics merely called for life without parole?
Beranda| 1.31.12 @ 10:12AM
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live."
Sounds reasonable to me. I approve this verse. If only we could add it to the constitution of the United States.
My neighborhood here in Baltimore is full of witches, some of them children.
Lorili| 1.31.12 @ 10:15AM
Beranda are you making fun of the Bible. If you are, you'll be sorry. God will judge you harshly.
Every word of the Bible is God's law. God said it, I believe it, and that settles it!
cowgirl| 1.31.12 @ 10:22AM
"God forbid that the African "Christians" influence the more civilized, liberal churches of the West.
Really? What about the homosexual/gay priests in the Catholic Church that sexually abused boys for years and years on end. The mental and emotional anguish that those gay/homosexual priests thrusted upon those young boys is beyond imagination. I can't believe that you would label the acts of those homosexual/gay priests as being more civilized....
Lorili| 1.31.12 @ 10:40AM
Cowgirl, surely you have sense enough to know that Anna K. would not approve of sexual abuse of children! She would abhor it, as you well know.
Many girls were abused by priests as well as boys. So your little gay rant is a little skewed.
You will find in the Christian church--those that are fundamentalist and evangelical--all kinds of sordid, disreputable, sexually degenerate people. You'll find them in the church and often behind the pulpit.
Surely you have read about them.
Ted| 1.31.12 @ 10:49AM
All Cowgirl wanted to do was suggest that gays are paedophiles. She has this thing about gays.
cowgirl| 1.31.12 @ 10:50PM
So if a gay/homosexual priest/brother abuses a boy under the age of 16 they are not considered pedophiles? Really. I don't have a thing about gays - I just speak the truth - I lived it, saw it and knew about it long before you did. I watch homosexual/gay priests/brothers destroy young boys and the Catholic Church. And then watch at the leaders of the Catholic Church turned their heads and did nothing about it even though it was pure sin.
I have a thing against straight, gay or any type of person who destroys people's lives and lives a lie of being a priest/brother and not abiding by the moral standards that they made a commitment to uphold. That is exactly what the gay/homosexual priests/brothers in the Catholic Church did - they lied...... to everyone. Disgusting.
JR| 1.31.12 @ 11:18PM
Unfortunately I've had the misfortune of witnessing "gays" when what they(gays) call breeders are not around and let me tell you a lot of them are pedophiles. Lorili have you read the Bible? The whole point is that man can be reprehensible but no where do I read in it that just changing how society views it doesnt make it less reprehensible. It seems the whole gay agenda is to do exactly that and its a shame.
cowgirl| 1.31.12 @ 10:46PM
I grew up in the Catholic Church - 12 years of Catholic education. I knew about the homosexual/gay priests long before the Main Stream Media did as I witnessed it. My gay rant is not skewed - it is fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. Please name the girls that were abused.
I agree with you that you will find all kinds of sordid, disreputable, sexually degenerated people in the the church and often behind the pulpit. I saw homosexual/gay priests and brothers destroy the church and the schools that I attended - no rant just the truth.
Jacob R| 2.2.12 @ 8:53AM
You're an absolute idiot who just wants desperately to have something important to say.
Name an organization that has a lower rate of sexual abuse than the Catholic Church. you can't!
Stop being an idiot zombie who believes the whole Catholic Church is pedophiles because that's what the New York Times tells you.
Why are people so helpless and stupid nowadays that they can't comprehend that there will always be evil humans, even in an organization that does more good than any secular baby murdering group or tiny, bickering, barely stable or declining Protestant church.
But Maureen Dowd said all Catholics are secret child rapists and that's all the facts you need right you backwards hick? Grow up and do something courageous like actually stand up for victims whose rights are ignored, rather than jumping on the leftist bandwagon and trying to endlessly shame Catholics for a twenty year old problem which has been resolved to a further degree than any other American organization's sexual abuse crisis.
Or should we end all your evangelical churches and godless secular pursuits because they're responsible for the rape and ruin of countless more children than usually homosexual predator priests?
(And how come theyre pedophile priests, not pedophile homosexuals? Doesn't their homosexuality define them more than their Catholicism in the homo belief system?)
Kettle - but not even black| 2.19.12 @ 8:38PM
Readers are curious, what grade did you get for this intellectually honest pearl of wisdom in your "Intermediate Transgender Issues in Society" class?
TrueBlue | 2.1.12 @ 11:36AM
Abuse of that nature is lower in the priesthood than it is among the general population, sorry to say. It's just noticed more because of the moral position these people hold. I don't condone the behavior amongst the priesthood especially, but they are still human. Humans will sin, regardless of their profession.
TrueBlue | 2.1.12 @ 11:51AM
Also, the percentage of those abuses is just about even between the Catholic Church and the other Christian denominations.
SeymourGlass| 1.31.12 @ 11:20AM
Anna K: you're right. There have been abuses in the Church in Africa. Here in the US, also.
Additionally, for many, many years college professors have taken sexual advantage of young, naive students of theirs. Want a better grade?
I say - abolish all colleges! College professors are clearly, obviously sexual deviants who've hidden behind their bookshelves too long!!
^raised eyebrows^| 1.31.12 @ 11:31AM
From what I have gleaned from newspaper articles ant TV reports, the African Christians are a primitive sort who have woven all kinds of superstitious nonsense into Christianity, making Christianity almost as dangerous as Islam--the meanest religion on earth.
I prefer the kind, humane teachings of Buddha myself.
albert constantine jr| 1.31.12 @ 2:32PM
Almost thirty years ago I was in a Japanese hotel which catered to a western clientele. Instead of a Gideon Bible, there was a works of Buddha book therein.
I opened it to a particular story where the Buddha and one hundred others were on a boat traveling on a body of water. Because of his divine powers, he was able to ascertain that one of his fellow travelers was a thief, who planned on killing all of the other passengers and robbing them as they slept. To protect them, Buddha killed the man and threw him overboard.
I have been to many Buddhist holy sites since, and even married a Buddhist. That has remained my favorite kind and humane Buddha story.
JR| 1.31.12 @ 11:21PM
The problem with Buddha is the fact he is DEAD. Jesus was resurrected and defeated death. Simple as that.
albert constantine jr.| 1.31.12 @ 11:27PM
I just enjoyed the thought that those who think of Buddha as kind or humane may be unfamiliar with that particular tale.
JR| 1.31.12 @ 11:50PM
I think forgiving the people who are tormenting and crucifying you is humane. Which one has had a greater impact of the world as a whole? Look no further than the date. We dont use a Buddhist calender do we? There are also atrocities committed in his name. Burma 1850.
Irony I from America A| 1.31.12 @ 1:30PM
Abortion in America is ugly, brutal, evil . . .
Homosexuality in America is ugly, brutal, evil . . .
Environmentalism in America is ugly, brutal, evil . . .
Education in America is ugly, brutal, evil . . .
Socialism in America is ugly, brutal, evil . . .
Liberalism in America is ugly, brutal, evil . . .
Humans everywhere are ugly, brutal, evil . . .
^raised eyebrows^| 1.31.12 @ 1:42PM
Goodness! I'm glad I do not share your world view.
You are obviously one of those Bible fundamentalists I read about.
Your god is a god of anger and punishment. Looks like he may have poisoned your heart.
You seem to be about as Christian as those Christian Africans who killed children because they believed they were witches. (the Bible sanctioned their killings, according to them)
Ugly, brutal, evil? Sorry that's your reality. You must be miserable.
Very beautiful day today in Phoenix. Heavenly sunshine!
Ted| 1.31.12 @ 1:44PM
Beautiful day here in Tampa also. Rejoice in the beauty of the day. That's what I say. Live in the now.
JR| 1.31.12 @ 11:28PM
You are obviously ignorant of the teachings of Jesus Christ. God is no longer mad at us, Jesus paid that price at the cross. If we confess our sins and accept that Jesus died for them and was resurrected we are forgiven. For all sins past, present and future. For all the evil things that mankind has done only a God of love would come to Earth in human form suffer the abuse He did so the price of our evil would be paid. The God of anger and punishment you speak of is the Old Testament. Try reading the New Testament sometime and educate yourself before making ignorant statements like the ones you made.
Ryan| 2.1.12 @ 9:03AM
God is still angry about sin. Read Revelation.
God has not changed His attitude toward sin - He still condemns it.
It's actually a misunderstanding of scripture to state that the God of the OT was full of wrath and destruction, and the God of the NT is somehow full of Love. There is plenty of both in each - read Psalms and Song of Solomon in the OT, or Revelation in the NT, and you will see it.
God HATES sin. Always has. It's why He had to send His Son and poured His wrath out at the Cross.
albert constantine jr| 1.31.12 @ 2:51PM
God forbid that the African "Christians" influence the more civilized, liberal churches of the West.
Substitute 'people' for "Christians" and 'churches', and you could have addressed the late Robert Byrd's Klan meetings with the same line.
wag*that*finger| 1.31.12 @ 7:52AM
Don't forget Joel Osteen.
Ryan| 1.31.12 @ 8:18AM
Much of this points to almost the abject denial of sin, and the necessity of Christ's atoning sacrifice to pay for it.
Such churches have forgotten the Gospel - man's sin, God's wrath, Christ's death and resurrection.
Mike Hawk| 1.31.12 @ 8:45AM
There is open rebellion in the PCUSA ranks. The congregations will have naught of what the lords in Louisville want to do. At some point we can hopefully throw them out. Last year the General Assembly decided the Book of Order was no longer useful. Well, the local congregations say otherwise and are fighting back. Top down rule against the basic foundations won't hold. Sound familiar??
Dr. X| 1.31.12 @ 8:47AM
Exactly. The fact is that we now live in a latter-day pagan Rome, where everything goes. But it can't go on forever, and people are starting to see the imminent collapse. Christianity will not be revived until modern society destroys itself as Ancient Rome did, and Christianity will then be left to pick up the broken pieces just like it did in the 5th century.
WRTolkas| 1.31.12 @ 9:45AM
Dear Dr. X,
The little backwater country of Ireland in the "Dark Ages" kept the torch burning and so will Africa in a future century. I hope someone will have the wisdom of Charlemagne.
Robert| 1.31.12 @ 10:00AM
Revelation speaks to a great "falling away" and seemingly contradictory "pour out his spirit" on the world, all at the same time. After reading this article I see how this can happen.
Todd In Lakewood| 1.31.12 @ 10:56AM
Which leads to the chilling realization that this country could indeed BE the Great Satan.
David W| 1.31.12 @ 10:56AM
As a fallen Presbyterian (though reading about the official policies of the Church I'm not sure I've fallen very fall) I will be curious about the reaction when these leftists pass on to the astral plane (or to Heaven to us evil conservatives). Will the Heavenly spirits welcome them with singing and dancing? Or will the leftist spirits be "gnashing their teeth" when they realize that Heaven's gates will not open for those who, in the name of God, left God behind.
cicero| 1.31.12 @ 11:44AM
The witch burnings in Africa have come about because the major Christian denominations had all but abandoned Africa to its fate. Those charlatans recently removed from their roles as witch doctors put on the mantle of chritianity to maintain their positions of power, and carried on as before. This occurred because the established Churches ran out of Africa when it became too dangerous (in their estimation) to remain. Up until that time, the priests, nuns, and ministers were a force for civilization. The void left by their flight has been filled by the old tribal forms of belief, as well as tribal forms of government. The religious West went to Africa to bring its belief system and culture. It tried to replace what they found (darkness) with something of value (see Robert Ruark). It stayed too long in expoitation, and not long enough in culturalization.
Boar Hunter| 1.31.12 @ 12:16PM
Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord, will enter the Kingdom, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
How strange those opposed to christianity would be drawn to such a posting. Is it not? If they do not believe, why would they care? Not knowing or understanding anything about christianity, it seems significant that they are always looking for some proof or reason to deny the legitimacy of christianity by pointing out the example of hoaxers.
I could call myself a liberal and infiltrate their ranks, but knowing what liberals truly believe I would soon be found out. How sad that because of their inability to discern that everything that calls itself christianity is not, the dragon reaffirms the merits of their reasons for rejecting christ.
Screwtape lives on.
Quartermaster| 1.31.12 @ 6:22PM
There are hundreds of western Missionaries still in Africa. I know several myself. cicero is merely raving.
Tony in Central PA| 1.31.12 @ 12:46PM
Who needs a church when the whole point of it has become political and the people in power largely support your goals anyway ?
Kingofthenet| 1.31.12 @ 1:00PM
As Rush has said Obama is at WAR with The Lord's Resistance Army. He is at war with Good Christians like that what can you expect?
mike| 1.31.12 @ 1:41PM
The falling membership of these denominations reflects their departure from teaching the truth as proclaimed in the Bible. Jesus taught us to love God and to love each other but stop sinning. We cannot love God and continue to love the things of this world. The main theme of any church is to love and know Jesus and obey his commands. We have to be born again and filled with his Spirit.
We go to a nondenominational church and we have members from all denominations and backgrounds. We have people from all walks of life but with a passion and love for God. Our churches are growing by spreading the Good News. We are gaining from folks wanting the truth and not just more liberal propaganda, whether in politics or in spiritual matters. I have never heard politics preached in our church - only Jesus.
Jesus loves all of us and He is coming again for a people that love him and do not comprise with the values of this world.
Appleby| 1.31.12 @ 3:38PM
I was Anglican/Episcopal until they started worshipping homosexuality, when I became a Catholic. I grew very very tired of hearing militant homosexuality preached every Sunday. Change the subject already!
I was brought up Methodist and I am sure my Mama, who is still Methodist, would be horrified if she knew what went on at these "conventions". I'm sure the old folks have no idea.
wukong| 1.31.12 @ 6:35PM
"- A woman caught in adultery is brought to Jesus.
- The crowd tells Jesus that Moses commanded that a woman
like this should be stoned to death.
- They ask Jesus what is the right thing to do.
- Jesus says, "go ahead... but let the person WITHOUT SIN
throw the first stone."
- Jesus stoops down to the ground and begins to draw in the
dirt with His finger.
- One by one...the crowd--oldest to the youngest--came and
dropped their stones and walked away.
- Then Jesus says to the woman, "Where are your accusers? Is
their not one person left to accuse you?"
- The woman answers, "No, my Lord."
- Jesus says, "Then neither do I, GO AND SIN NO MORE"."
The modern interpretation is "Go and indulge your hedonistic desires."
BackToBasics| 1.31.12 @ 3:10PM
So many people who tend to be more on the conservative side are so hungry for real truth, sincerity and good guidance in their lives. They want truth in politics but even more they want truth in the church.
Regarding the church, most of the rank-and-file church members are sick of compromise with the political left and outright deception, most always subtle, that is all too common.
The author speaks of the almost complete liberalization of Presbyterians and Episcopalians in the Western nations and notes the push among many to go left in the Methodist church. I know that many Baptist denominations, especially Southern Baptists are following close on the heels of the Methodists as well.
I am an evangelical but I consider myself independent of any particular denomination. Ever since Papa Bush, I no longer quickly back a candidate because he attends an evangelical church. With only a few exceptions, it has been my experience that the evangelical rank-and-file more sincere in their faith than the leadership of the churches. The good news is that I have seen that the Lord Jesus is more and more in the process of weeding out many of the wolves in the church. The hard times are increasing and in the church this has resulted in more of the pretenders falling away or being exposed. 1 Peter 4:17 says, "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"
BackToBasics| 1.31.12 @ 3:15PM
I will add that the Republican Party is mirroring the church with the Republican rank-and-file more strongly holding to conservative aspirations and ideas that the Republican leadership is.
It's not all, but I think a lot of the top church leaders and the Republican Establishment are one and the same these days.
Margie| 1.31.12 @ 4:36PM
Whether it's in Catholicism or the so called Protestants, what the author here is speaking to is the same that Christ speaks of in the Bible:
"Go in through the narrow gate; for
wide is the gate and broad is the way that
leads away to destruction, and many are
the ones entering in through it.
For narrow is the gate, and constricted
is the way that leads away into life, and
few are the ones finding it.
But beware of the false prophets who
come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inside
they are plundering wolves.
From their fruits you shall know them." Mt. 7:13-16.
Cling to Jesus Himself, and NOT a Religion. Only He can save you and love you and keep you unto Eternal Life.
"But you, beloved ones, remember the
words spoken before by the apostles of our
Lord Jesus Christ, because they told you that at the last time there will be mockers going after
ungodlinesses according to their lusts.
These are the ones setting themselves
apart, animal-like ones, not having the
Spirit.
But you, beloved ones, building yourselves
up by your most holy faith, praying
in the Holy Spirit, keep yourselves in the love of God, eagerly awaiting the mercy of our Lord
Jesus Christ to everlasting life." Jude 1:17-21.
Don't listen to what the "leadership" says, listen to Jesus' Words. They are LIFE itself, and give Life:
" It is the Spirit, the One making alive.
The flesh does not profit, nothing! The Words
which I speak to you are spirit and are life.. 6:63.
SeymourGlass| 1.31.12 @ 11:34PM
Margie, I'll likely regret it, but I need to ask: if what you say is true, why did Jesus say "upon this rock I will build My Church" to Peter? I mean, if we didn't need a Church, and all, as you say.
SeymourHeinie| 2.2.12 @ 1:28PM
Where, after Peter became this rock upon which the Church is built, as Jesus words state in the Bible, does it state anywhere in the Bible in the words of Jesus, that Peter is to be replaced as this rock, in a long line of successors, one after the other?
POST American| 1.31.12 @ 10:43PM
---AND AGAIN
whenever we're ready for that FIRST
piece on 33rd degree FREE 'MAY-SIN'
christian tent show fraud, Pat Robertson's
spit in the face of Christ uttered doctine
('One man one woman --one life')
with his greenlight to dumping one's
spouse with Alzheimer's --in the name
of EUGENICS 'X--speediency'.
"Well, afterall, what should they do?"
How about fighting the CAUSES of
Alzheimers ----CHEM-trails ---TV flicker
rates ---meds ---contaminated food and water
------------------EUGENICS---------------------.
How about being a crusador speaking
human TRUTH to the powers of scientific
dictatorship and the rule by 'X--spurts'
that've been installed by the TAX FREE,
ultra rich, USURY feuled, EUGENICS
foundations and NGOs?
How about going after them --and bringing
them to light and to justice?
SO, whenever we're ready.
----tick ---tick ----tick ---tick ----tick
---------------------WHENEVER-------------------------