The American Spectator : Romney's Mormon Advantage

Jack in Wi.| 12.21.11 @ 7:13AM

Romney has been a rotten Mormon in his public life. He may have been a good family man and religious Mormon. But when he had a chance to fight for the unborn and natural sexual relationships he was missing in action. Just like he was missing in action while the Vietnam war was going on. Just like his five sons are missing in action is this nonsense string of wars were in for the last 2o years. Mitt Romney changes as the winds blow. That is his main problem not his religion.

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 10:37AM

" The New Hampshire Gazette

The Chickenhawk Hall Of Shame

name:
Willard Mitt Romney
rank:
Chickenhawk First Class with Distinguished Fleeing Cross
date-of-birth:
March 12, 1947
home state:
Michigan
missed opportunity:
Vietnam War
excuse:
None to speak of
preferred activity:
Trying to talk people into becoming Mormons
occupation:
Climbing ambition's greased pole

When your daddy's a Governor and a Cabinet Secretary, it's amazing how your odds of being drafted diminish."

The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here And In Iowa.

Doorgunner| 12.21.11 @ 12:04PM

Jack, Clint,

What's your military experience again? And if your excuse for none is that you didn't/don't approve of the American interventions from Viet Nam forward, well, then shut the hell up about other peoples' service. As someone who enlisted at the time Reagan first took the Presidential oath of office, got out after six, and then re-enlisted after 9/11 -and currently serve- I absolve Romney of any wrongs of non-participation. I've earned the right to pass that judgement.

You two humps ain't earned squat, I suspect.

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 1:57PM

Why Don't Ya Try To Make Me Shut Up, Punk Ass.

" Dr. Ron Paul served in the United States Air Force as a flight surgeon for several years (1963-1965). While in the air force, Paul reached the rank of Captain. Directly after his service in the air force, Paul worked again as a flight surgeon for the United States Air National Guard (1965-1968).

" Paul served as a flight surgeon in the U.S. Air Force in the 1960s, spending time on the ground in countries like Ethiopia, Iran, Pakistan, South Korea, and Turkey. He also sits on the House Committee on Foreign Affairs."

The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here And In Iowa.

Dan Kendrick| 12.21.11 @ 8:20PM

What are you, Clint, like 13 years old? "Why Don't Ya Try To Make Me Shut Up" - such a juvenile response. However, given the caliber of most of Ron Paul's supporters, this isn't really a surprise. Go play with the other kids until you grow up and can participate in the adult conversation.

Mark | 12.22.11 @ 9:48AM

Acting the way you do on this site is costing Dr. Paul more support than his own lunacy. pAul isn't even lucid enough to understand the difference between whistle blowing and treason.

Jack in Wi.| 12.21.11 @ 6:00PM

Romney, Gingrich, Santorum, Huntsman, Cheney, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Barney are called chickenhawks, not because they did not serve, and avoided the military like the plague. They are called chickenhawks because they never met a war that they didn't love, even though they were, to yellow to come near fighting in one.

Clint and I didn't serve but we aren't calling for wars on end. I can't think of a war that could not have been avoided by sound policy and sane leadership. We lovers of a non interventionalist foreign policy believe war can be justified only in extreme self defense or to save the lives of others. It must be fought by the most humane ways possible, with the offering of reasonable peace terms at all times. No American War of the 2oth and 21st century comes close to meeting those criteria.

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 2:53AM

Hitler would have loved you guys.

Teaghan| 12.21.11 @ 12:45PM

Life aint fair.

Al Adab| 12.21.11 @ 2:01PM

Clint,
As you know I am no Romney fan, but when did military service become a qualification for the job?

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 2:09PM

When The RINO-CINO Chickenhawks Run For Office.

The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here And In Iowa.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:56PM

"but when did military service become a qualification for the job?"

That depends on whether a lib runs against a Conservative.

It's only important when a lib has it.

Remember Kerry and GW?

Only Kerry's was important.

Remember Clinton and Dole?

Then Dole's record was irrelevant.

Remember Reagan and Dukakis?

Reagan didn't serve and so was unqualified.

Ron Paul is no different than the libs when it comes to foreign policy and social issues.

All you have to remember is that Ron Paul stood shoulder to shoulder with Barney Frank, Dennis Kucinich, Maxine Waters, Bernie Sanders and 54 other Flamin' Liberal Socialists in proposing that the military be slashed by 75%.

PS, apparently Ronaldus Minimus did not choose to enlist, he was drafted.

http://www.boston.com/news/loc.....iowa_race/

"Paul said Thursday on Fox News. "But, you know when, in the 1960s when I was drafted in the military ..."

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:28PM

(That was my husband's post, He forget to take my name out of the box before posting, a it remains there from last time I posted).

You all can tell that anyway, I suppose.

Mike McLamara| 12.21.11 @ 7:21PM

Military service is good for character, hard on the soul. Not having it doesn't disqualify anyone, but it is a bonus.

DTOM| 12.21.11 @ 10:51AM

JAck,

Do you mean to say that Mitt is a Mormon of low quality or do you mean to say that you hold Mormon's to be rotten as a class.

Otherwise, you made a couple of good points about Romney's lack of conservative principles and plethora of self-promotional statist behaviors.

Jack in Wi.| 12.21.11 @ 5:47PM

I find the Mormon position on abortion and homosexuality, to be generally that of us conservative Christians. Romney and his father and mother long had a position of being pro choice. I don't consider that to be very good for Mormon's or conservative Christians. He may be a good person in personal life, but when it came time to be counted he sold out the babies and natural and Biblical sexual unions. I won't go into his mountain of flip flopps on many other issues. He is just not trustworthy.

Guy Briggs| 1.2.12 @ 12:45PM

Take a look at the following "open letter" from folks who are fighting, boots-on-the-ground, in Massachusetts, for family values:

http://www.nationalreview.com/.....jean-lopez

I've always believed that actions speak louder than words. You?

KyMouse| 12.21.11 @ 9:56PM

There are a number of attributes that counterfeit Christian cults have in common: They believe that their particular writings, added to or substituted for the Bible, are required for true faith; that their leader or leaders speak directly for God; and that theirs is the only true Church.

At www.lds.org, anyone can read an official LDS book that explains their beliefs; it's called "Gospel Principles." Read it for yourself. That is the official Mormon web site. Among its interesting points:

Chapter 3 discusses the belief that our spirt brothers, Jesus and Lucifer, offered to be the saviors of humanity ("two of our brothers offered to help"). Both are referred to as Heavenly Father's sons.

Chapter 6, "The Fall of Adam and Eve," says that "in the spirit world Adam was called Michael the Archangel."

Chapter 9, "Prophets of God," says that "We should do those things the prophets [Mormon presidents] tell us to do. President Wilford Woodruff said that a prophet will never be allowed to lead the Church astray...We raise our hands to sustain the President of the Church as prophet, seer, and revelator...We should follow his inspired teachings completely.We should not choose to follow part of his inspired counsel and discard that which is unpleasant or difficult...The Lord will never allow the President of the Church to lead us astray...We are blessed in this insecure world to have a prophet through which the Lord reveals his will..."

Chapter 10, "Scriptures," says that "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints accepts four books as scripture: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price...In addition to these four books of scripture, the inspired words of our living prophets become scripture to us..."

Chapter 16 explains that after the death of Jesus, "more and more error crept into Church doctrine, and soon the destruction of the Church was complete. The period of time when the true Church no longer existed on earth is called the Great Apostasy...On April 6 1830, the Savior again directed the organization of his Church on earth. His Church is called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints...The Lord has said that it is 'the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased'."

Chapter 47, "Exaltation," reveals that Mormons who reach "exaltation" through faith and good works "will become gods."

Do the verses to the Mormon hymn "Praise to the Man" (founder Joseph Smith) sound Christian to any Christian readers here?

Praise to the man who communed with Jehovah!
Jesus anointed that Prophet and Seer.
Blessed to open the last dispensation,
Kings shall extol him and nations revere.

Praise to his mem'ry, he died as a martyr;
Honored and blessed be his ever great name!
Long shall his blood, which was shed by assassins,
Plead unto heaven while the earth lauds his fame.

Great is his glory and endless his priesthood.
Ever and ever the keys he will hold.
Faithful and true, he will enter his kingdom,
Crowned in the midst of the prophets of old.

Sacrifice brings forth the blessings of heaven;
Earth must atone for the blood of that man.
Wake up the world for the conflict of justice.
Millions shall know 'Brother Joseph' again!

MikeG| 12.21.11 @ 10:22PM

So, Mouse, you gonna vote for Obama?

KyMouse| 12.22.11 @ 8:41AM

No. Neither will I vote for any man who believes he will become a god, and whose election would give cultural cachet to a deceptive, counterfeit Christianity. I've noticed a lot more ads for Mormonism on web sites, including TAS's, in recent years, as Mitt Romney has entered the national spotlight.

We'll see who the GOP nominee turns out to be.

In the meantime, anyone who wants to learn more about Mormonism can find a good overview at www.carm.org/mormonism, a page in the web site of the Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry.

MikeG| 12.22.11 @ 11:52AM

It appears the election will be Obama v. Romney. So you will stay home and deny a vote to Romney which will help Obama. Smart.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:28PM

KyMouse,

Then you can't vote for Santorum, either. Unless you are in agreement with the cult of Catholicism.

Or Gingrich for that matter.
Or anyone who isn't a Christian.

creeper| 12.22.11 @ 3:46PM

Those of us who live in the area Mormons left in 1846 understand well the problems of Mormonism. When Mormons moved to an area they overwhelmed the indigenous population culturally, economically, politically and religiously. Locals recognized Mormonism for what it was...a cult...and responded by driving them out. In this enlightened age that's no longer possible and Mormons are taking full advantage of that fact.

Today we have two Mormons running for the office of President, though their population is just 1.7% of the U.S. citizenry. In Iowa we are seeing staggering amounts of money being paid by Romney's PAC to send mailings trashing Newt Gingrich.

Note to Romney: I don't trust Newt Gingrich for two seconds but your mailings have me seriously contemplating a stand for him in the Iowa caucuses, just for spite.

I fear Mitt Romney almost as much as I do Barack Obama.

dave| 12.23.11 @ 2:37PM

read amos chapter 3verse 7. god has always used prophets so why not today. mormons dont worship joseph smith. also their can only be one correct answer which church is true. as an evangelical christian do you not beleive you are true and corect. every body has to find there own belief as to what is true and correct. also if mormonism is a cult how come they havent had all the usual problems associated with a cult.

Arthur Sido | 12.30.11 @ 11:12AM

Dave, you do get that Amos is in the Old Testament I assume. You are better off reading Hebrews 1:1-2 : "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world." God used to speak through prophets but with the coming of His Son no longer needs to do so.

In terms of mormonism and cultish behavior, believe me as someone who left mormonism and saw first hand the cultic behavior, that mormonism does indeed have all of the problems and hallmarks of a cult, just on a larger scale and hidden behind a smile.

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:03AM

So, Kymouse, you believe God cannot communicate anymore with man since he has said everything he needs to say in the Bible? Sounds presumptuous to me. BTW, prophets were common in the Bible. But I guess God has changed. BTW, don't give me that BS regarding John saying in Revelations that nothing should be added to his words, because the Bible did not exist when John wrote that. His statement applied to his book of Revelations.

rhoetus| 12.22.11 @ 8:43AM

Romney has a "socialist" problem.

Lyneuss Fields | 12.24.11 @ 12:08PM

Many people, including myself who was baptized at eight years old into Mormonism, have been financially, emotionally and physically molested by this cult and its leadership. Preventing Romney's nomination therefore should be an issue of morality or ethical values/beliefs and not whether Mormons are Christians. Flip-flopping on issues important to conservatives is manifestation of Romney and Mormonism's perverted ethic.
http://lyneussfields.blogspot......gious.html

martin j smith| 12.21.11 @ 7:53AM

No, Romney must talk and behave as a Conservative not the phoney baloney crap he expects voters to buy on RINO shelf. He must explain why he would be better for the nation than Obama and how his polcies would bring the nation back. Not a detailed minute version but a broad general thrust of his ideas if he were elected
Who cares about his Mormonism--most people do not I think they are more concerned about his awful political record..

richard ryan| 12.21.11 @ 8:10AM

There is just NO WAY Romney's mormonism will not be a liability in this election if he is the nominee. Most TAS readers understand the conservative nature of most LDS folks, but the general population will know nothing of this. They will, however, be bombarded by a media storm depicting mormonism as a polygamist cult with a mission to destroy traditional Christianity. In a close election, that could mean a republican loss.

DTOM| 12.21.11 @ 11:09AM

Daniel Allott may or may not remember Reagan's 1984 defusing of the age question by stating that he would never make an issue of his opponent's youth and lack of experience, that was the 56 year old Fritz Mondale. Of course, Mondale lost.

Mr. Allott's article fails at the defusing game. Mr. Romney's casual regard for the strictures of his Mormon faith is clearly reflected in his long history as a wishy-washy conservative. Rarely has Mr. Romney found an obstacle in his path that has not caused him to 'forget for the moment' his conservative values.

That's the last thing we need now.

I'd vote for a seriously faithful Scientolgist before I'd vote for any fainthearted member of any mainline denomination. Excepting of course that political system that masquerades as a religion, Islam.

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:11AM

Richard,

This is truly absurd. Mormonism has ALREADY been depicted as a "polygamist cult" by the majority of hypocritical and dishonest Evangelical pastors, but their followers are learning that Mormonism isn't such. THAT is why Romney is rising in the polls, because Christians are learning the truth about Romney's record, faith, family, and Christianity.

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 1:27PM

So Joseph Smith and Brigham Young only had one wife?

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:06AM

Of course not. They were just like Abraham, Isaac, David....

richard ryan| 12.21.11 @ 2:47PM

you aint seen nothing yet. The media has yet to begin tearing this man and his faith apart. Just wait until he is the nominee, if he is fortunate enough to get it. The same will happen to Newt, RP, or any other nominee. Even if it were squeaky clean Rick Santorum, they would still do it. They would simple fabricate stories. Once they are out there, the damage is done, just ask Mr. Cain. The problem with the LDS story is this: it will resonate with our uneducated populace. Policy issues do not get that much traction because, lets face it, a large chunk of our citizenry is just plain ignorant. If they see a story on NBC about the republican guy being in a cult, that will stick.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:34PM

Sadly, this is true.
Prayer is in order for our country~ I pray that God will put it into the hearts of Men to vote for the best conservative that is running.

All are better than Obama, )except unfortunately Ron Paul, and yes that is just my opinion) and I pray that we do not lose another election to the Left because we cannot afford it.

Elections aren't based on Religion because we're not a Theocracy, and thank God for that.
The Mormons want Romney because he's a Mormon.. at least for the most part, right?

But conservatives just want a man who believes in conservative principles, and that is what we need to all pray for.

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:08AM

Rich, you may be right, but hopefully the population can see thru the BS.

Hal9000| 12.29.11 @ 5:09PM

It doesn't matter who the candidate is, the media outlets are for the most part, contributing to the Democratic Party, they will be guaranteed to attack, rake up rumors, project past baggage, and even allow outright lies to circulate about the candidate, and it won't matter one bit whether it's Romney, Perry, Santorum, Gingrich, or any of them. It also needs to be realized that plenty of the regular die-hard liberals will be solidly behind Obama, as well. Whatever it is, we need to be supportive of the candidates if we expect any of them to win.

As for me, I would rather have a so-called polygamist that doesn't practice polygamy than a so-called monogamist who cheats on his wife behind closed doors. Regarding religion, I would rather have an incompetent nonchristian than an incompetent christian. It goes on and on. As far as Mormonism goes, most of them are benign enough that I can sleep soundly at night and not worry about them in comparison to plenty of other issues facing my family nowadays.

mames| 12.21.11 @ 12:35PM

Mormonism IS a cult and anti Christian. Is is what it is and Romney's persistence in calling himself a Christian is in line with the rest of his phony life.

Shawn | 12.21.11 @ 12:41PM

Bull. Mormonism is NOT a cult, and it is a Christian religion because it 1) upholds the Bible as its FIRST source of scripture, and 2) is founded upon the Biblical claim that mankind can only be saved through Jesus Christ.

Joseph Smith said:

"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it' ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 121).

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:14PM

Joseph Smith was a FRAUD and Mormonism IS a cult. It is not based on the Bible.

Jesus Christ is LORD, not the brother od Satan as their cult teaches.
Just as Catholicism teaches that Mary is God's Mother and was sinless, makes it a cult as well, because that goes against the entire Scriptural basis of God's Word and His Gospel.

Mr. Allott says:

"Ironically, however, Romney can reassure skeptical Christian conservatives by stressing his Mormon values. That's because Mormonism is strongly associated with conservative positions on social issues such as abortion and marriage -- the very issues that are the greatest source of doubt about Romney among religious conservatives."

This is true in so far as if this is what the candidate actually believes and practices~ that abortion is murder, that Homosexuality is sin, and "Gay" Marriage is against the Lord of Glory.

If this is what Romney believes, and is fiscally conservative as well, and also pro-Israel and for a strong Military, then I'd have no problem voting for him. The problem is, he isn't and he hasn't~ been truly conservative.

I'm all for repentance and if Romney's now an enlightened conservative and truly believes what conservatives believe, (not talking the Religious, but the conservatives values I just mentioned), then good. But trust is the issue.

I'll vote for him over Obama because I think he'd have conservatives in his administration, just like Newt would.
Obama is an utter unrepentant Socialist, and like Ron Paul~ would have Leftists in his administration~ and neither one of them will get my vote.

So, it isn't about anyone's Religion~ it IS about what they believe~ conservative values~ or not.

The Entire AmeSpec Bloggers| 12.21.11 @ 1:51PM

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:03PM

Ha! One Troll does not speak for the entire Amspec Blog, wish though you may.

Nor does anyone speak for the Scripture, but the WORD OF GOD HIMSELF.

Either you believe it, or you reject it, your "choice".

".. "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel." Mk. 1:15.

Kingofthenet| 12.21.11 @ 2:22PM

I am with Margie on this, not to mention what is up with all the Secrets in the Temple and baptizing people unbeknown to them, including the WORST War Criminals in the world?

GOD| 12.21.11 @ 10:00PM

Margie,

You are correct. Nobody speaks for the Scripture except for Me. So stop quoting the scripture. It wasn't written by Me, it was written by your ancestors (man).

My words were "revised" by man in the King James version of My Book. They even left out the part about my Son's wedding. So sad.

Lord of the Flies| 12.21.11 @ 10:08PM

Margie,

With every hateful word you launch at any of God's children, you play right into my hands.

Emperor Palpatine| 12.21.11 @ 10:21PM

Back off, Satan. I've got first dibbs on her.

Margie,

With each passing moment you make yourself MORE my servant!

Sidious

Satan| 12.21.11 @ 10:26PM

Fellas, Margie is mine. She's the best I got since Church Lady on my favorite show SNL, Jimmy and Tammy Baker, to make Christians look ignorant.

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:14AM

Margie, it sure sounds like YOU speak for scripture. Don't be a simpleton. Yours is not the ONLY interpretation of scripture that is valid. Why do you think there are so many "Christian" churches? Because they interpret the Bible differently. Why should we believe that you are the one that is right??

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:50PM

The truth is boring to cultists, it puts them to sleep.

Todd S| 12.21.11 @ 8:39PM

You are the kind of person that gives religion a bad name Margi with your bigotry and insistance that everyone who doesn't believe just like you is going to hell. Not much different from the Islamist nutjobs though you likely wouldn't strap a bomb to yourself to make your point

The Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 10:27PM

Todd, don't waste your time speaking to a hypocrite. At some point you'll strike a nerve and then she'll whine to AmSpec seeking to ban you.

Her rant about her Christian views vs. others is about as 9th century as Sunni vs. Shia.

Buck Ofama| 12.22.11 @ 12:17PM

>Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:14PM
"Jesus Christ is LORD, not the brother od Satan as their cult teaches.

Just as Catholicism teaches that Mary is God's Mother and was sinless, makes it a cult as well..."

Who cares? The important thing is to exterminate the vermin infestation in the white house.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:16PM

Agreed, but since cults were the subject...

Teaghan| 12.21.11 @ 12:47PM

Bull. And would you rather have one who practices Black Theology and White Hatred? I'll take the morman any damn day of the week.

My Boyfriend is ...| 12.21.11 @ 4:00PM

Read about this in
My Boyfriend is a Mormon Vampire
found on amazon.

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 8:21AM

He lost me with the "alleviate concerns that his religion would influence his governing" line. Religion is supposed to answer the most important questions, and if it DOESN'T influence your governing....then your religion is governing.

Of course, his Mormonism is one of the reasons I don't like him anyway...

The Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 10:31PM

Been to any book burnings lately?

Ryan| 12.22.11 @ 1:01PM

What does THAT have to do with anything?

Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 8:45AM

If Mitt Romney had lived up to the values he was raised with for his entire life, I could respect him and vote for him. Since he is NOT what I would consider a "typical" member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and doesn't consistently uphold those values, he is a hypocrite and I hope he does not succeed in his bid for the nomination.

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:12AM

Name one "way" Romney hasn't lived up to his Mormon values. This is just more Tea Party hate nonsense.

mames| 12.21.11 @ 12:42PM

We don't HATE Romney we just don't want his underlying theology affecting this country. Read Mormonism's view of the ascendancy of Mormonism that is supposed to occur in their "prophecies". Mormonism is a in house cult that grows via birth rates more than anything and is predicated on some pretty weird and an fanciful ideas based on the notions of a pretty good con man.

Teaghan| 12.21.11 @ 12:50PM

Mames, I'm more worried about the acendency of the muslim religion and would much rather have the acendency of mormonism. He will most likely be our candidate and I hope to God you and your crew will get behind him and help rid us of the perpetual vacationing pariah that is presently in our White House.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:18PM

mames,

See my above post. Not to worry, if Romney wins the election he won't be King, and can only serve two terms max.

If this were a Theocracy, then we'd have a problem!

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:23AM

Mormons believe strongly in free agency. For the govt to limit one's agency on abortion would be in violation of free agency. Thus, Mitt could certainly agree to keep govt out of the abortion issue and keep with his belief that abortion is wrong. Thus, Mitt's earlier stance on protecting a woman's right to choose did not violate Mormon teachings.

Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 8:45AM

If Mitt Romney had lived up to the values he was raised with for his entire life, I could respect him and vote for him. Since he is NOT what I would consider a "typical" member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and doesn't consistently uphold those values, he is a hypocrite and I hope he does not succeed in his bid for the nomination.

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 9:28AM

Disclosure: I am LDS.
And I agree with Bruce above, but I see it as Mitt misrepresenting himself as a liberal a decade ago. He is a consensus, let's-all-get-along type of pol. Mitt is not the only Mormon politician who downplayed his opposition to abortion because it was politically expedient, a Faustian bargain if there ever was one. Which begs the question whether he is Mormon or Politician first.
I don't believe for a moment that he had a come-to-Jesus moment on abortion; it was a leave-MA-and-come-to-republican-social-issues moment. I believe the story used against Mitt by Teddy that as a lay church leader he counseled a woman against abortion--so why did he need a come-to-Jesus moment later?
Of course this article isn't any less cynical--Romney should "use" his Mormonness for political gain?

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:15AM

Romney has always been Pro-life in his personal life. He counseled women in his congregation to not have abortions. In fact, he actually went to a hospital uninvited to persuade a woman NOT to have an abortion.

Your criticisms against Romney are Christian-right rhetorical hate speech. Most of what anyone has to say on these AS blogs is merely bigotry against Mormons - not factual or valuable and truthful criticism.

rhoetus| 12.22.11 @ 8:48AM

Bruce: "He who is without sin cast the first stone."

Jeff Barnett| 12.21.11 @ 8:49AM

Most Christian conservatives do not hesitate to support candidates because of their different faith when they share the same values. However, there is an underlying hesitancy to support a Mormon because this group represents themselves as Christians. A cursory review of LDS doctrine clearly exposes this misrepresentation. That misrepresentation undermines the credibility of those who adhere to it.

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 9:33AM

Yes there is a difference, but we Mormons don't see this as a misrepresentation. In the doctrinal differences, we believe Mormonism is closer to the original first century Christianity than 21st century Christianity is. We are not lying about the Christianity question--we are disagreeing.

Vern Crisler | 12.21.11 @ 10:00AM

PT, Mormonism denies cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith and provides a weird ontology about Lucifer and Adam, among other things. It also concocts a fantasy history of early America.

No, Romney should NOT stress his Mormonism. I would vote for a Mormon, not because he's a Mormon, but because he's conservative. That's what Romney should be stressing -- his putative conservatism. And that's the problem: he has adopted liberal positions before adopting conservative positions. How can any of us trust that he won't go back to his liberalism like a dog returning to his --

All in all I think the writer of this article is just about as wrong as anyone could be, and the Romney camp will no doubt reject its well-meant but absurd suggestion.

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 10:15AM

Vern, yes doctrines that are weird to you and others, but not really that weird. All religions have doctrines that others view as strange, illogical, and heretical. I don't blame you for not liking them. But it is interesting that, as the articles states from PEW research, Mormons are the most politically conservative of American religions today. How could this be? Don't wacko flying saucer religions produce wacko liberal voters?
I'M NOT ARGUING FOR MITT ROMNEY, in fact I wish he had more Santoram in his spine.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:23PM

"Vern, yes doctrines that are weird to you and others, but not really that weird."

It doesn't matter if we or anyone think they are weird, what matters is that they are weird to God.

And the Authority is God, is it not?

And the Word of God does not agree with false and unbiblical doctrine.

Mormonism preaches a different gospel, and not that of Jesus Christ.

"He who does not love Me does not keep My Words; and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." Jn. 14:24.

My Boyfriend is ...| 12.21.11 @ 4:02PM

Read about such bigotry in
My Boyfriend is a Mormon Vampire
found on amazon.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:42PM

Read about those who call good Evil, and Evil good~ in the Bible:

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!" Is. 5:20.

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:27AM

Margie, you are so closed minded and think you know all about God that if Christ came to the earth today, there is a good chance that you would reject him.

The Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 10:50PM

As usual, you're arrogant enough to "speak" for God.

By definition, Christianity is defined as the believe that Jesus is the son of God. Catholics, Protestants, and Mormons all share this view. Yet you dismiss two of these as "cults."

Do you honestly believe that you can hurl hateful insults toward fellow Christians, then will somehow be "saved" because you dangle a bit of quoted scripture before clicking the "submit" button?

You are the quintessential case of what the Left refer to when they make reference to intolerant religious fanatics.

You probably experience cold sweats every time you walk past a Synagogue.

The Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 11:12PM

Oh and, Margie, there's something I forgot to ask. Don't you find it rather ironic that while you rail against, say, Catholicism, you simultaneously perform your own personal Inquisition against others here for their beliefs?

Fancy that.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 12:02AM

You're wrong. I don't speak for God. The Bible does.
And since He says that unless you REPENT AND BELIEVE HIS GOSPEL~ and NO OTHER~ you cannot be save~ I suggest you just MIGHT want to take Him up on the offer, while there's still time.
Liar.

"The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel." Mk. 1:15.

rhoetus| 12.22.11 @ 9:29AM

Margie: The "Bible" was a product of the Council of Nicaea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F....._of_Nicaea

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:17PM

The Bible was a gift from GOD.
Men put it together. Do you worship God or Men?

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:31AM

Margie, your logic is scary. You imply that men cannot be trusted, but they put together the Bible, which is a gift from God and is infallible! You also indicate that the Catholic church is a cult, but your religion is a break off from the Catholic church. Doesn't that make your religion the cult?

C Smith| 12.21.11 @ 10:50AM

It concocts a fantasy history of early America:

The Book of Mormon, in which Joseph Smith was declared to be God’s “prophet,” with all power and entitled to all obedience, professes to give the history of America from its first settlement by a colony of “Jaredites” from among the crowd dispersed by the confusion of tongues at the Tower of Babel down to the year 5 A.D.

MORMONS: [The Encyclopedia Britannica, Thirteenth Edition, London, vol. 18, pp. 842-843, 1926]… a religious sect founded by Joseph Smith… born… December 1805 at Sharon… Vermont, from which place… his parents, who like his grandparents were superstitious, neurotic, seers of visions, and believers in miraculous cures and in heavenly voices and direct revelation, removed to New York, where they settled on a small farm… Joseph, a good natured, lazy boy, suffering from a bad heredity physically and psychically, began to have visions which seem to have accompanied epileptoid seizures… from which he recovered apparently before he became of age. The boy’s father was a digger for hidden treasure… the son became a crystal gazer and by the use of a “peep-stone” discovered the whereabouts of pretended hidden treasure.

He [Smith] said… that on the night of the 21st of September 1823 the angel Moroni appeared to him three times, and told him that the Bible of the western continent, the supplement to the New Testament, was buried on a hill called Cumorah, now commonly known as Mormon Hill….

It was not until the 22nd of September of 1827 that (as he said) he dug up, on the hill near Manchester, a stone box, in which was a volume… made of thin gold plates… and fastened together by three gold rings. The plates were covered with small writing [supposedly of the reformed Egyptian tongue]… with the golden book Smith claimed that he found a breastplate of gold and a pair of supernatural spectacles, consisting of two crystals set in a silver bow, and called “Urim and Thummin”; by aid of these the mystic characters could be read. Being himself unable to read or write fluently, Smith employed as amanuenses: first Martin Harris… then his own wife, Emma; after the middle of April 1829, Oliver Cowdery, a blacksmith and school teacher, and David Whitmer; to them , from behind a curtain, he dictated a translation, for the printing and publishing of which Martin Harris paid, in spite of the continued opposition of his wife to the scheme. An edition of 5000 copies of The Book of Mormon was printed early in 1830… Soon afterwards, according to Smith, the plates disappeared, being taken away by the angel Moroni.

The Book of Mormon, in which Joseph Smith was declared to be God’s “prophet,” with all power and entitled to all obedience, professes to give the history of America from its first settlement by a colony of “Jaredites” from among the crowd dispersed by the confusion of tongues at the Tower of Babel down to the year 5 A.D.

Docmcb| 12.21.11 @ 11:57AM

If I were going to try persuade someone of a point, I would try to find a reference more current than 1926. What does Encylopaedia Brittanica have to say in their current editions? The Bigotry of the 1920's has been replaced with more factual data now.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:24PM

What matters is if the doctrine that they preach agrees with Scripture, and it doesn't.

That is what makes it a Religious cult.

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:36AM

Clearly, biased information from the Encyclopedia. The author of this clearly had an axe to grind with respect to the LDS church. Also, the Book of Mormon does not declare Joseph Smith to be a prophet. In fact, he is not mentioned in the Book of Mormon proper.

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:17AM

Jeff,

The claim that Mormonism isn't Christian is a word game. Mormonism is Christian in the MOST IMPORTANT sense of the word. It is NOT Christian in the LEAST important sense of the word.

Mormonism doesn't claim to be a break-off from the Catholic Church which ALL Protestants sects are, but this "break-off quality" doesn't make one Protestant sect more Christian or "true" than the next one.

Jeff Barnett| 12.21.11 @ 11:47AM

All due respect to you James, but you need to study Christian history and scripture. Christianity is a relationship with Christ, not a religion. Classic, Biblical Christianity is based on Christ of the Bible and a personal relationship with Him in His kingdom. The institutions (break-offs or not) later created by man is not necessarily relevant to the issue. LDS came up with their own 'Christ', a different one. I respect that choice, but not false claims that they follow the Christ of the Bible. It's kind of like being a RINO, but instead, a Christian in name only.

Shawn | 12.21.11 @ 12:56PM

Jeff,

Oh now it's a relationship with Jesus Christ? Jeff, this is just more "word game" definitions to keep moving the target for Mormonism.

Mormonism ALSO claims that "being" a "Christian" is a relationship. In fact, the Book of Mormon teaches that we become the seed of Christ when we accept Him as our Savior and make a covenant with Him. We enter into a "Father-Son" or "Father-Daughter" relationship with Jesus Christ when we exercise faith in Him and live the covenant of keeping His commandments and try our best to have charity for all people.

When you claim that Mormonism has a "different" Christ, it's "code word" for "Mormons reject the creeds."

Why not just say that? Why do Evaneglical Christians believe it's "truthful" to hide behind the criticism of a "Different Christ" (as if there were multiple New Testament Saviors to choose from.)

No, Jeff, your professional anti-Mormon slogans won't do anymore. Please start telling the truth.

The Mormons worship the SAVIOR found in the New Testament.

But, we do NOT accept the EXTRA-biblical (not shouting just emphasizing) creeds that were formulated by Catholic Councils of the 4th and 5th centuries.

Romney is not a Christian in name only. Mormons are not Christians in name only. Both Romney and faithful Mormons are GENUINE Christians who are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ.

Deal with it Jeff. Trying to exclude Mormonism from Christ based on the Creeds is not approved by Jesus Christ.

Tony in Central PA| 12.21.11 @ 1:12PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Mormonism reject the dogma of the Trinity ?
That would at least place it in the same camp as some of today's fundamentalist denominations..

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:27PM

Catholicism rejects the Word of God that states that "ALL have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God."

Blaspheming the Holy Spirit that says it, it teaches that Mary was sinless and God's Mother.

Mormonism teaches similarly in that it blasphemes the Holy Spirit of od in that it teaches that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that Jesus is the brother of Satan.

As to the Trinity~ there is no such teaching in the Bible.

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 1:31PM

So what does Christ mean when he stated "I AM" to the Sanhedrin?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:59PM

You and I both know what He "meant,". He meant what He said.

Do you have a problem with that?

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 2:31PM

Not really. So his stating "I AM," just like God did to Moses at the burning bush, means Jesus is God. Cool.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:45PM

"For a Child is born; to us, a Son is given;
and the dominion is on His shoulder; and
His name is called Wonderful, Counselor,
The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father,
The Prince of Peace." Is. 9:6.
Yes.

Shawn| 12.21.11 @ 3:04PM

How could "I AM" mean the Trinity as decided by the Catholic Councils of the 4th and 5th centuries?

Ryan| 12.22.11 @ 9:32AM

It's Christ claiming He is God; and there are other points in scripture in which the Holy Spirit is declared God or it's a rational deduction. 2 Cor 6 is a good place to start, where we are the temple of God - and the Holy Spirit resides in the temple.

No, the word "Trinity" is not in scripture, but the concept of the Trinity - one God in three persons - inundates throughout the Word.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 6:52PM

Ryan,

I know and believe what the Scriptures say.
Now, you tell me where it says anywhere, "Thus sayeth the Trinity", OR "Thus sayeth the Triune God."

Sorry, but I will stick with exactly how God Himself speaks.. and not add anything to it.
IF that's OK with you!!

Nick| 12.23.11 @ 12:03AM

Margie,

"Now, you tell me where it says anywhere, 'Thus sayeth [sic] the Trinity', OR 'Thus sayeth the Triune God.'"

"And Jesus came and said to them, 'All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit [...].'" Matt. 28:18-19

Christ didn't say "in the NAMES of," now did He? He said "in the NAME of." As in singular, ya' know? One name.

This is what happens to people who think that just because they have seen The China Syndrome, they can now operate a nuclear power plant. Bible interpretation should not be practiced without a net.
God Bless!

Tony in Central PA| 12.21.11 @ 1:44PM

Actually Margie, the Trinity first appears all the way back in Genesis. Abraham is visited by the Lord, who surprisingly appears as three men.

If you are going to insist the entirety of Christian belief is in the Bible, then where do we find sola scriptura ? As a bonus stumper, I'd also ask what Christians did for the first few centuries in terms of worship or instruction in the faith before there was a Bible ? You can't dissect the Bible from the Church.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:57PM

There is no such teaching in Scripture.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:58PM

Address what your cult teaches, Tony.
Why do you always resist the Holy Spirit?

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 2:07PM

Margie: here it is, right in the King James, Gospel of John, Chapter 6:

[53] Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
[54] Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
[55] For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
[56] He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
[57] As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
[59] These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
[60] Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
[61] When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
[62] What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
[63] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
[64] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
[65] And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
[66] From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

So, I guess the Word of God tells us you're still considered a disciple, but, you do not walk with Him.

Have a nice day.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:15PM

"So, I guess the Word of God tells us you're still considered a disciple, but, you do not walk with Him."

And a Papist will be my judge? Ha!

Tell me how it is that believe against the Spirit of God that Mary was sinless and the same as Christ, able to forgive sin, and the "Mother" of God, and then you can proceed to try and trash me!

Refute the Holy Spirit of God when He says:

"all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.." Rom. 3:23.

Have a nice time burning.. in Hell.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 2:24PM

I'm not judging you, Margie. You put yourself into this position by claiming that Scripture - which I did nothing but cut and paste - is the sole authority, and which in the part I cut and pasted doesn't look too flatteringly on your position regarding the Real Presence.

Can you point me in the direction of the official teaching of the Roman Catholic Church which speaks of Mary's being "the same" as Christ and "able to forgive sin"?

Thanks.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 2:36PM

Oh, and Margie, while you're looking for this information, ponder this passage from the King James Gospel of Luke, Chapter 1:

[46] And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
[47] And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
[48] For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed.

So, Margie, do you agree with Scripture that Mary is "blessed"?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:59PM

"So, Margie, do you agree with Scripture that Mary is "blessed"?"

Of course I do, but it means nothing as to the point of what your cult teaches~ that she was without sin.

And Jesus says that we who believe in His Words and is Gospel are blessed as well, without having seen Him.

"Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen Me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe." Jn. 20:29.

Does this therefore mean we too are without sin?
Of course not!

I asked you to try and refute the Holy Spirit who says that ALL have sinned, and you cannot. Therefore you have NOTHING to stand on but personal attacks and the ever so lame attempt at trying your reverse psychology.

Repent, and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, in which Jesus Christ is LORD and no other. In which God has no Mother because as the Scripture says:
"You are My witnesses," says the LORD, "and My Servant Whom I have chosen, that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. Before Me no god was formed, nor shall there be any after Me." Is. 43:10.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:39PM

You're talking about the Catholic false teaching of "Transubstantiation".
It isn't biblical.
Anyone who believes they are committing Cannibalism while taking the Lord's Supper is in need f true repentance to the LIVING GOD, Who Himself tells us that the blood REPRESENTS the New Covenant, and to do it "In remembrance of Him."
You are not drinking actual blood, that is blasphemy against God, and yet another demonic teaching.

"For I received from the Lord what I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night when He was betrayed took bread, and when He had given thanks, he broke it, and said, "This is My Body which is for you. Do this in remembrance of Me."

In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, "This cup is the New Covenant in My Blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until He comes." 1 Cor. 11:23-26.

This is symboblic, as anyone with half a brain can see.

Now, Papist: That is what I do. Do you? Or do you partake in some sort of Satanic cult?

I already know the answer.

Also~ when Jesus proclaimed "I am the Bread of Life" in Jn. 6:35~ by YOUR cults teachings, we are to believe that Jesus is a loaf of bread?

Utter deceit.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 2:47PM

Margie: again, we agree. Anyone with "half a brain" can indeed see your point.

Those with a full brain, well...

And regarding Mary - do you agree with Scripture that she is "blessed"?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:03PM

Again, you have nothing but insults to stand on.
And you continue to reject the Scriptures.
Proving once again that you are an Papist Idolator~ and cling to your cult's false teachings.

Your choice, I care not. You are doing what you were destined to.

As for me and my house, we shall serve the LORD.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 3:13PM

Margie: I'm still waiting for the references to where the Church calls Mary "equal to" Jesus and "able to forgive sin". I'll be away for a while, will check in later.

Matt Slick, eh?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:59PM

Look to your Vatican website under catechisms, fool.
apparently, you don't even know what your cult even teaches!

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 4:04PM

Margie: provide us the link.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:47PM

Vatican.com. Duh.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 2:24PM

Margie,

I answered these objections of your's, the other day, in the Occupy Churches thread. To which you conveniently stopped responding. Because you had no response.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:40PM

"I answered these objections of your's, the other day,"

And who are YOU?

A Papist who is utterly deceitful, who rejects the Words of God as written in His OWn Words.

I choose to believe the Scriptures, and not a false teacher!

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 6:03PM

Margie,

I was just showing how your interpretation is completely wrong. And, you have no response, as usual.

Also, there is no teaching of the Catholic Church that says Our Lady is "equal to" Jesus and "able to forgive sin," as SeymourGlass has stated.

So, it can't be found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

You made the false assertion, the burden of proof is on you. I'll save you some time, you will never find such a teaching. Therefore, stop repeating it.
God Bless!

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:29PM

Vatican.com
Under Catechisms.
It's amazing to me how deceitful cultists actually try and deny their own cult's teachings!

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 6:49PM

Margie,

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is 900 pages long. Luckily, it is broken down into paragraph numbers, to make it much easier to give citations.

Now, cite the paragraph.

The only one who looks deceitful, here, is you. You made the false accusation, but you can't back it up. So, you just obfuscate.

Remember the commandment about bearing false witness?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 9:30PM

Do your own homework, lazy Papist.

You know full well, as you have preached this lie yourself, that Mary sinless, and the Mother of God.

How you can lie like you do is truly astonishing!

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 11:34PM

Margie,

"You know full well, as you have preached this lie yourself, that Mary sinless, and the Mother of God."

Quit changing the subject. That's not what SeymourGlass and I were objecting to, and you know it.

Since you can't seem to remember the falsehoods you write, here is what you wrote, just today:

"Tell me how it is that believe [sic] against the Spirit of God that Mary was sinless and the same as Christ, able to forgive sin, and the 'Mother' of God, and then you can proceed to try and trash me!"

It's the highlighted portion that is not true. This is why you get trashed, because you can't answer simple questions in a clear and concise manner, with common courtesy, like any regular person.

You spout stuff that isn't true, and when called on it, you distract, project, and hurl insults.

But, guess what? I still love you, because you are my sister in Christ.
God Bless!

MikeG| 12.21.11 @ 4:40PM

Margie,
Are you still trying to convert Jews?
Will you now try to convert Mormons?
What about Catholics, convert them or have you given up?
What do you want them to convert to?

Merry Christmas.

dave| 12.23.11 @ 3:19PM

Margie, ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of god. yet what im seeing is this does not apply to you. By your own words you to are going to hell with the rest of us.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:15PM

Why do you say you are going to Hell, dave?

Only those who refuse to repent AND believe the Gospel are going there. Those aren't MY words, but His.

Tony in Central PA| 12.21.11 @ 6:20PM

Margie, I have probably asked you a dozen times to locate the doctrine of sola scriptura in the Bible. If the Bible were intended as the sole guide to Christianity, wouldn't you expect to find sola scriptura somewhere in the text ?

Usually, you don't respond to the question. If you do, it might be an unconnected scripture quote. Sometimes its an insult - - lying papist, apostate, blasphemer, etc. All this tells me is that you have no answer and you are angered by the very question.
Its an irony indeed that the many of the same people who are consistently accusing the Catholic Church of inventing unBiblical doctrines have their entire theology based on a doctrine found nowhere in scripture.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:51PM

You're lying when you say I ever responded, for I did.

Why is it that you see fit to lie?

Cultists such as yourself see fit to lie, and often.

You do not care for my answer, nor do you care for the Bible.

And I don't care what "doctrine" says~ I care what God actually says.

And all throughout the Bible He warns us to BELIEVE in Him, and His Words.

Anything that is doctrinal and that isn't in agreement with His Words, we are told BY HIM and His appointed Apostles~ to reject.

Now, if that isn't good enough for you, and you want to follow false teachings, that is your choice~ but quit being disingenuous.

Tony in Central PA| 12.22.11 @ 2:26PM

Again, no answer from you Margie as to where sola scriptura is found in the Bible.

The Bible certainly is one of the foundational pillars of Christianity. But some denominations have taken it out of its true place and made it something it wasn't intended to be; an exclusive guide to the Faith dependent upon a highly subjective interpretation. In doing this, these groups have attached novel doctrines to it which are logically unsupportable and sometimes contradict the Bible itself.

Earlier, I said that fundamentalism of all stripes has a distaste for mystery. This thread has amply shown that it also has a distaste for reason and history.

Steve| 12.21.11 @ 10:30PM

Tony, your'e trying to confuse Margie with the facts. Unfair.

Vern Crisler | 12.21.11 @ 3:59PM

Margie, you cannot be a Christian if you deny the doctrine of the Trinity. The word "Trinity" may not be in the Bible, but the teaching is still there. In the past, those who rejected the doctrine of the Trinity were known as Arians. Now they go by the name Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or Muslims or what have you.

All confessing Catholics and Protestants uphold the teaching of the Trinity. Walter Martin, in his book *Kingdom of the Cults* says that the denial of the Trinity is one of the marks of a cult. You should get that book and read it. It's an excellent book for those who want to understand basic Christian teaching.

Vern Crisler | 12.21.11 @ 4:04PM

PS, I'm in agreement with what you say about Catholicism, thought not necessarily in the way you say it.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:14PM

By the way, Vern, In that very book it states that the definition of a cult is a group of people that follows a man and not God.

And furthermore, when I pray, I do not pray to a Trinity. I pray, as Christ told us how to pray: To God, through Jesus, and by the Holy Spirit.

Nowhere in the Bible does Jesus EVER say we are to pray TO the Holy Spirit, but BY Him. Nor did Jesus ever pray TO the Holy Spirit.

Again, the heretics who started the Catholic church brought in this teaching~ so that they could say that Mary is the Mother of God.

For then they can justify that Jesus as God can have a "Mother."

That is also why they cannot stand it when I refuse insist on saying that Jesus is the Son of God~ they do not like to say that He is the Son.
Saying He is God allows them to justify Mary as Mother of "God".

Now~ if this alone were their teaching, and to say that Jesus is God because He is the Beginning and the End~ and always has been~ but it isn't.

They claim that Mary was without Sin. They pray to her. They say she is God's Mother.

Thus, it is important to know the Scripture, to know that Jesus NEVER COUNTED equality with God a thing to be grasped.. so if Jesus didn't even consider it, how could Mary possibly, as she was a sinner like the rest of Mankind!

p.s. Vern~ if you were me and you WOULD say it~ how would YOU say Catholicism is a cult?

Not too many Christians have the courage?

Papist Dan| 12.21.11 @ 4:13PM

BIGOT ALERT!!!!!BIGOT ALERT!!!!!!

The resident bigot Margie has crawled from under her rock to give us her daily mouth-foaming ant-catholic bigotry.

She doesn't believe Jesus is God, doesn't believe in the Trinity, yet she pretends to lecture on what is Christianity.

Let's hear your reply Idiot: papist, punk, liar,troll, burn in hell, blah, blah.
What do you do for Christmas, throw snowballs at Mary in the manger?

The Entire AmSpec Bloggers| 12.21.11 @ 5:24PM

Folks,
This site is being overrun by the ramblings of Margie, Clint, and Jack. They repeat the same old every day every comment.
We need to stop "feeding the trolls" and just ignore them. It will be difficult because it is so tempting to reply. But let's see how ignoring them will work.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:55PM

Right. Freedom of speech for thou but not for thee.
Go away, Troll.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:38PM

Let me just put it this way, I believe in God the Father, Jesus Christ, His Son, and the Holy Spirit, as written in the Bible.

What I refuse to do is make them into a "Trinity", because nowhere in the Bible is this done.

And nowhere in the Bible is Mary the Mother of this "Trinity".

Do some research into the heretics that started the Catholic church, Vern.
This is how it all began.

God bless you.. or not. Depending on where YOU stand!

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:54PM

No Vern, that isn't true.

There is no such teaching in the Bible, nor does God mention that He is a "Trinity." Nor does Christ call God a "Trinity."

So don't play games with me and try and say as the lisrs do, that I'm not a Christian.

Do you not take your stand on Scripture? Or do you take your stand with the heretics of old, who brought in this teaching?
It was not the Apostle who taught this thing.

Do you not know that the early heretics taught this in order to try and justify the other false teaching that they also brought to Christianity? That of Mary as "Mother of God?"

Since nowhere in Scripture, or in the New Testament does either God or Jesus, or the Apostles teach this thing, I do not have to go according to it, either.

Better watch out Vern~ you are placing yourself with the Papists who tortured and killed Bible believing Christians such as myself for their stand on Scriptures, who also refused to bow the knee to false doctrines such as these.

Tell me~ if you deign to call yourself a Christian and place yourself in authority over the Scriptures~
where this teaching is?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:57PM

Sorry, but that book isn't the Bible, Vern.
And ALL confessing Christians do NOT accept the teaching of the Trinity, since it isn't biblical.

Aren't the Scriptures themselves good enough for you?

Vern Crisler | 12.21.11 @ 8:55PM

Margie, Protestants agree with Roman Catholics that Mary is the mother of God. Since Jesus is God, she is therefore the mother of God. Of course, this way of speaking is further explained in terms of what's known as the "communication of attributes." Christians don't say Mary is the mother of the divine nature, but of the human nature, of Christ. They say that what's true of either nature can be predicated of the PERSON of Christ. So also we can say that God died on the cross, not because Christ's divine nature died (an impossible notion), but because the PERSON of Christ died according to his human nature.

This concept explains why Peter says somewhere that the Jews had killed the Prince of Life, which makes no sense unless the communication of attributes is recognized as the assumption behind Peter's words.

I would urge you to read Walter Martin's book. He did more than anyone to alert people to the dangers of modern day cults. The doctrine of the Trinity is fundamental to Christianity and no one can go to heaven who denies it. We must affirm that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, and that they are One in essence, though three in Person. Remember that John said in the beginning was the Word and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God -- clearly an expression which assumes the doctrine of the Trinity. In addition in Revelation John says Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Almighty, he who was dead and lives forever. These are just some of the texts that back up this essential biblical and Christian doctrine.

BTW, the Arians persecuted the Trinitarians orginally. That's why Athanasius spoke of standing against the whole world in affirming the doctrine of the Trinity.

Again, read Martin's book; it's invaluable. Also, for criticisms of Catholicism and cults, see the Alpha & Omega website: http://vintage.aomin.org/apologetics.html

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 9:46PM

"Margie, Protestants agree with Roman Catholics that Mary is the mother of God. Since Jesus is God, she is therefore the Mother of God."

Wow~ so you ARE a Catholic.

And I care not what "Protestants" believe, I only care what the WORD of GOD says.

You are preaching the same false gospel as Catholicism.

Again, there is NO such teaching anywhere in the entire Bible.
What about what I told you? Do you not care?

And Arianism taught that Jesus was a THING, and not a person as far as I know. Weird.

The Bible says to repent and believe the Gospel, not the "Trinity."

And since it is nowhere to be found in the Bible, you shouldn't be believing in IT, either.
Sorry, God is not a THING, and He is NOWHERE in Scripture referred to as a Trinity, but He is God, and ALL of the Words in the BIBLE, Old and New Testament suit me just fine as to what I take my stand on.

Catholics and Protestants are NOT God, and are NOT the authority, the Word of God is.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Duet. 6:4.

Do you reject His Own Words?

Jesus is LORD. His Words are Truth.

"Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." Jn. 14:6.

Papist Dan| 12.21.11 @ 10:38PM

Idiot Bigot Margie,
Arianism was the cult that believed that Jesus was not God, but a "lesser" god that did not always exist. They also didn't believe in the Trinity. This sounds like you own little Cult of One, or is two?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 11:08PM

Fool:

Since there is no such teaching in the Bible ANYWHERE, and you choose to believe unbiblical teachings, a cult is right where you belong, not I.

I believe the actual Words of God, as spoken in the Bible, so I do not belong to a cult.

The Words of God speak to us Christians and He says this in which I take my stand:

"May you be strengthened with all power, according to His Glorious Might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, Who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light.

He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the Kingdom of his Beloved Son, in Whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

He is the Image of the Invisible God, the first-born of all Creation; for in Him all things were created, in Heaven and on Earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through Him and for Him.

He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.
He is the Head of the Body, the church; he is the Beginning, the first-born from the dead, that in everything He might be pre-eminent.

For in Him all the fulness of God was pleased to dwell, and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether on Earth or in Heaven, making peace by the Blood of His Cross." Col 1:11-20.

Now, liar: unless that is what you believe as well, YOU are no Christian!

Papist Dan| 12.22.11 @ 11:57AM

Idiot Margie

Are you really this stupid that you can't see the similarity between what your preach and Arianism?
Can you respond in the English language without babbling about verses you don't even understand?

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:28PM

"Are you really this stupid that you can't see the similarity between what your preach and Arianism?
Can you respond in the English language without babbling about verses you don't even understand?"

Papist fool and liar:

So, you do NOT believe the Bible, then?
Tell us how Col. 1:11-20 is Arianism?

Hmm?

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:09PM

Papist PUNK:

Get right with the God you trash. Then you can pretend to lord it over me with some substance.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 9:58PM

"Christians don't say Mary is the mother of the divine nature, but of the human nature, of Christ."

Catholics do, and apparently that's what you believe, too.

Vatican's own website:

"963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer...."

Come again, Vern?

You are swallowing Catholicism, as carried into Protestantism, all based on LIES.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 12:19AM

Why didn't you post the whole paragraph, Margie?

963 Since the Virgin Mary's role in the mystery of Christ and the Spirit has been treated, it is fitting now to consider her place in the mystery of the Church. "The Virgin Mary . . . is acknowledged and honored as being truly the Mother of God and of the redeemer.... She is 'clearly the mother of the members of Christ' ... since she has by her charity joined in bringing about the birth of believers in the Church, who are members of its head."500 "Mary, Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church."

500 LG 53; cf. St. Augustine, De virg. 6: PL 40,399.

501 Paul VI, Discourse, November 21,1964.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:11PM

Papist Nick:

You can't have it both ways.
Either you foolish Popes are lying or they are telling the truth.

I say they are lying.

According to the Bible, Mary was a sinner like the rest of us.

And she is NOT the Mother of God. God has no Mother, as the Scripture says.

I hope you repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 3:29PM

Margie,

"According to the Bible, Mary was a sinner like the rest of us."

Nowhere in the Scriptures does it say that Our Lady sinned. That is a false assumption on your part.

"And she is NOT the Mother of God."

For the umpteenth time, the Blessed Virgin Mary was the Theotokis, i.e., God-Bearer. Mary bore God Incarnate, the Eternal Word, Jesus the Christ. That is all the title "Mother of God" means. It DOES NOT imply that she pre-exists God, or created God, or whatever other mistaken assumptions you have about Theotokis.

Our Lady is creature, just like the rest of us. Although, minus the Original Sin and never disobeying God, ever. She didn't do this on her own, this was a singular grace granted her by God, so that she could fulfill her role as the second Eve, and bruise the head of the serpent, foretold in Genesis 3:15.

Have you got this straight, now?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 10:05PM

More CULT teachings:

"966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."506 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son's Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.507"

Now, you tell me they do not teach that Mary is the Mother of God.
Not Jesus alone physically~ but GOD.

Then tell me who it is that needs to repent from believing a false Gospel?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 10:07PM

More damning demonic teaching from this Apostate CULT:

"968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."509

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."510

You were saying, Nick?

Satan| 12.21.11 @ 10:33PM

Go Margie! Luv ya, Jersey girl.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 12:32AM

I'm still saying it, Margie. Where does it say, in any of those quotations, that Our Lady is "equal" to Christ or that she "forgives sins"?

Is it in code? Do I need my secret Vatican decoder ring?

If you had continued reading on, into paragraph 970, you would have read this:

970 "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."511 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."512

511 LG 60.

512 LG 62.
(LG stands for Lumen gentium.)

Your attempt to justify your false statements has failed, completely.
Merry Christ's Mass and God Bless!

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:14PM

"Your attempt to justify your false statements has failed, completely."

I only posted your cult's false statements for all to see.

each person will choose to either believe the WORDS of CHRIST or the words of the Apostate Catholic Religion.

I hope you repent.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 2:32PM

Margie,

"I only posted your cult's false statements for all to see."

Yes, and nowhere in those quotes were your false accusations that Our Lady is "equal" to Christ or that she "forgives sins." Again, you cannot admit that you were....WRONG!
More pride on your part.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 10:23PM

For the lazy, lying Papists and others who care not to know whether what they are believing is in accordance with the Bible, so much so that they do not even know what their Religious cult teaches nor do they care to look it up themselves, but ask me to do it for them, in order to prove to them that what they stand on is false~ yet they say that their Religion does NOT teach what they themselves SAY it teaches:

Here is the link:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM

I hope you all repent and believe the GOSPEL of God, lest you perish.

Merry CHRISTmas.

Vern Crisler | 12.22.11 @ 10:22AM

Margie, if you deny the Trinity, how do you deal with passages where Jesus is said to be God? Did he not say that before Abraham was born, I AM? That's eternal existence, an essential attribute of deity. St. John also identified Jesus as God:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. . . . Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore." (Revelation 1:11; 17, 18.)

These verses clearly assume the doctrine of the Trinity, and it has nothing to do with Mariolatry. This has been the teaching of all sectors of Christianity, and is only denied by cults, heretics and rationalists.

I don't know of any true Christian who has ever denied this teaching, once it was explained to them. Why are you denying this teaching?

Please read Mr. Martin's book if you have any desire to differentiate yourself from Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons.

Vern Crisler | 12.22.11 @ 10:38AM

I should also mention Rev. 1:8 where Jesus says:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End . . . who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Clearly, Jesus is saying he is the Almighty. We also learn from Peter that the Holy Spirit is God. In rebuking Ananias, Peter said:

"Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit...? You have not lied to men but to God." (Acts 5:3, 4.)

When one lies to the Holy Spirit one also lies to God, for the Holy Spirit is God.

The doctrine of the Trinity is clearly taught in the Bible, and should not be denied by any true Christian.

Papist Dan| 12.22.11 @ 11:59AM

Vern
The obvious answer is that she has made up her own cult. Do you think her beliefs are similar to Arianism?

Vern Crisler | 12.22.11 @ 5:15PM

Papist Dan,
I don't know whether Margie is an Arian or a trinitarian. I'm confused by her answers.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:33PM

Apparently, Vern, you are blind.

I believe every Word of God. What I do NOT have to AGREE with is any teaching that is NOT in the Bible, and I think I've made that quite clear.

Thankfully, Religionists aren't my judge, but God is, and He knows what I believe~ HIS OWN WORDS.

Nowhere in His Word ANYWHERE does He, Jesus, or the Apostles call Him a "Triune" God.

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD.." Deut. 6:4.

How do YOU reject His Words and replace them with Catholic drivel?

You'll have to explain that to him.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:06PM

And by the way, I know that LORD includes God, and Jesus and His Holy Spirit.

And yet.. HE says He is ONE.

I'll stick with Scripture, if that's OK with YOU.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:08PM

So, just WHO is the LIAR, Vern?

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:16PM

"Margie, if you deny the Trinity, how do you deal with passages where Jesus is said to be God?"

i don't have to DEAL with them, Vern. I BELIEVE them. And have, by the Grace of God for almost 40 years.

If that's OK with YOU, of course!

Vern Crisler | 12.22.11 @ 5:11PM

Margie, if you believe that Jesus is God, as you seem to indicate, then you are a trinitarian, whether you accept the terminology or not. After all the very words of the Bible, as I've quoted them, say that Jesus is God, and you say you believe in the words of the Bible right?

And since LORD (all capital) is the English way of writing Jehovah, and you say that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all the LORD, and you say this LORD is One, then you are a trinitarian.

Three Persons, One God. One in essence, three in person. You've essentially accepted this doctrine, even if you seem fearful of the terminology.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 6:59PM

I believe all that is written in the Scriptures, whether the cultists both of Catholicism and Protestantism like it or not.

I refuse to add or take away from the Scriptures, as you seem to see fit to do.

Why is it that you insist on going round and round and trying to pin me into your box, along with the false teachings you adhere to.

If God never refers to Himself as a "Triune" God, or "The Trinity"~ (both teachings brought in by heretics who became the cult of Catholicism)~ then why should I?

Repent and believe the Words of God, and quit trying to tell me what I do NOT believe!

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD." Deut. 6:4.

HOW DARE ANY OF YOU SAY OTHERWISE!!!

Vern Crisler | 12.22.11 @ 9:20PM

Ok, Margie, all I can conclude at this point is that you are an Arian heretic. The only other option is that you are an ignoramus. Not sure which is worse in this context.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 9:36PM

You're an idiot.
A deceitful, lying fool.
Thankfully, you're not my judge.
The God of the Bible is, Whom I have served and believed for almost 40 years.

how utterly sad that you are so deluded that you judge a Christian that stands on THE WORD OF GOD as an heretic.

But then, you're a flaming Papist! You believe what they teach, and not the Scriptures.

I hope you repent, and BELIEVE HIS OWN WORDS.

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.

Papist Dan| 12.23.11 @ 3:02PM

Vern,
She can be both an Arian heretic and an ignoramus. They are not mutually exclusive.

Ryan| 12.23.11 @ 8:31AM

You've hit on what I think Margie more or less believes. She simply refuses to accept any terminology that isn't specifically used in scripture.

Vern Crisler | 12.23.11 @ 12:06PM

I don't know Ryan. I think the problem is much deeper than that. Even when confronted with the clear words of the Bible, she still rejected the doctrine of the Trinity. It's possible she's a Christian Science advocate, or maybe a Jehovah's Witness. She certainly is not a true Christian if she rejects cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith (believed in by Catholics, EO's, and nearly all Protestants). She is in danger of hell-fire now, and needs to repent. Or she'll have to spend the rest of eternity listening to Christopher Hitchens's bilgewater.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:18PM

"when confronted with the clear words of the Bible, she still rejected the doctrine of the Trinity."

That's because neither God, nor Jesus, nor the Apostles taught it.

And YOU are an utter imbecile.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:19PM

" She certainly is not a true Christian if she rejects cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith (believed in by Catholics, EO's, and nearly all Protestants)."

REALLY, Papist?

So, rejecting the doctrines of MEN and BELIEVING EVERY WORD OF GOD is heresy to you?

You fool!

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:24PM

VERN: This applies to you and your lying cultists:

"You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said: 'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me; in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the precepts of men.'" Mt. 15:7-9.

Got it, fool?
Your doctrine is NOT a biblical doctrine. It is a doctrine of Men.
Repent, and believe the Gospel of God, as written in the BIBLE.
Or YOU will burn, not I.
I believe EVERY WORD OF GOD.

Vern Crisler | 12.24.11 @ 12:12PM

Margie, you have such a blind hatred of Roman Catholicism that you throw out everything connected with it, even the good parts. IOW, you throw out the baby with the bathwater. I think you have to get over your bigoted hatred of Catholicism first before you can even understand Protestant theology. Until then, I have to regard you as a heretic (just like a Jehovah's Witness, a Mormon, or member of Christian Science, since they also reject the doctrine of the Trinity and the deity of Christ). Even Protestants wouldn't have you.

Jeff | 12.21.11 @ 11:43PM

Sorry Shawn, but as you say, Jesus plus 'a covenant' you must keep is a different gospel, a different Jesus. Christ of the Bible is no moving target and certainly the Bible has had no need for changes as a cult's asserted scripture many times have needed over the years. I hope you will re examine these important issues. I cannot change your heart, only the Holy Spirit can. Open your heart and mind to Him; He loves you.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 8:18PM

Margie,

Here is the Biblical answer to your mistaken notion of what Saint Paul meant by "all", in Romans 3:23. "[...] since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God [...]."

"You said yesterday that Paul was just generalizing when he said this, and that it didn't include Mary."

Yes, Saint Paul was generalizing. Was Jesus included in that "all"? No, He was not. So, there were exceptions; all did not mean "ALL".

Therefore, if there was one exception, there could have been two, or, many more. And there were many more. Are infants included when Paul says all have sinned? How can an infant sin?

Paul uses the Greek pantes for "all", in Romans 3:23. He uses the same word, pantes, in Romans 5:12.

"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all [pantes] men because all [pantes] men sinned [...]."

Now, since Enoch and Elijah did not die, pantes does not mean "ALL", as you keep asserting. There are exceptions.

Finally, if you had kept reading Romans 5, you would have seen that Paul wrote this, in verse 19:

"For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners: so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just."

Was Paul, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, contradicting himself? How do you explain this apparent contradiction?

You should be trying to listen to the message that the Holy Spirit is giving you, through these writings of Paul; not trying to find proof-texts to try to prove that the Catholic Church is wrong. This is not how the Word of God is to be applied.
God Bless!

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:46PM

"Yes, Saint Paul was generalizing. Was Jesus included in that "all"? No, He was not. So, there were exceptions; all did not mean "ALL".

Wow, Nick.

So you aren't able to discern that the Son of God was not included in that verse?

And you are actually going to try and say that because Jesus is not included in that verse, that therefore Mary wasn't included?

Did Mary die for the Sin of the World? Did God raise her from the dead?

You fail miserably, kiddo.

repent, and believe the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, who is LORD of all, and the ONLY One who overcame Sin and Death and therefore has the Power to forgive Sin and to save.

"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time." 1 Tim. 2:5 & 6.

Repent and believe... the Gospel.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 11:21PM

Margie,

"So you aren't able to discern that the Son of God was not included in that verse?"

Yes, I'm able to discern such things. It was you who stated many, many times, "When God says all, He means ALL."

All I did was lay out the case that He didn't mean all. Did you miss the part about the infants? Care to explain how they have sinned?

This is how one builds an argument, you see?

"And you are actually going to try and say that because Jesus is not included in that verse, that therefore Mary wasn't included?"

I didn't try to say it, I said it. Pantes does not mean ALL, i.e., every single person who ever lived, as you wrongly thought and claimed.

"Did Mary die for the Sin of the World? Did God raise her from the dead?"

What does that have to do with anything that I wrote? I never claimed either one of your straw men. More obfuscation, on your part.
Yes, wow, indeed. It boggles the mind, sometimes.

You claimed, wrongly, that when the Holy Spirit inspired Saint Paul to write, "all have sinned," that He meant ALL. I have shown that this cannot possibly be true. Your interpretation, like many others, is not Biblical.
God Bless!

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 12:10AM

You have shown no such thing. When the Word of God says ALL have sinned, it means ALL, and it has to include Mary.

Suit yourself, Papist~ you are trying to have it YOUR way~ but Mary was a sinner like the rest of Mankind~ according to the Word of God~ and she is NOT co-Redemptrix (or whatever nonsense) with Christ.

DEAL WITH IT.
And I posted your cult's false teaching concerning Mary that you were too lazy to look up yourself.

How hypocritical and pretentious you are as a human being! You constantly harp about how I don't know what I'm talking about and yet you don't even know what your cult teaches~ and you also claim that It doesn't teach what it teaches~ and yet you are too lazy to look it up!

Hypocrisy thy name is Nick!

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 12:57AM

Margie,

Quit trying to change the subject. I proved pantes did not mean ALL (e.g., everyone who ever lived,) as you keep wrongly stating. Did all die, as Paul wrote? The Scriptures say that Enoch and Elijah did not die. Explain that one away.

What about infants? Why do you keep ignoring this question? How can infants sin? Paul could not have been including infants, when he wrote all.

You also didn't answer the question about whether Paul contradicted himself when he wrote "many were made sinners," in Romans 5:19? Again, all was just a generalization.

Geez, I'm having flashbacks to my debates with Toddard, Marxist Reader, and 3/5 Bob!

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:37PM

Nick,

You're nothing but a complete and utter liar and hypocrite.

you've made that perfectly clear.

You refuse to repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, according to the Bible.

You are a Papist Idolator who cares NOTHING for God.

"He who does not love Me does not keep My Words; and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's Who sent Me." Jn. 14:24.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 2:08PM

Margie,

Blah, blah, blah, blah. In other words, you can't answer my simple questions, huh?

Or, more likely, you can't admit
that you might....possibly....could be....wrong!
You're like the Fonz. Remember him? He couldn't admit he was wrong, either.

This is called the sin of pride. The same sin that caused Lucifer to rebel against God.

The first virtue that Christians must strive for is humility, because Christ humbled Himself when He lowered Himself by becoming a mere man. You hardly ever express any humility.

You'd rather take pride in your mistaken notion that you are superior to those who disagree with you. You almost relish the thought that we Papists are going to "burn in Hell." How sad. This is not following Christ's example of pure, agape love.

But, I still love you as my sisiter in Christ.
May you and Victor have a Merry Christmas.
God Bless!

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:20PM

"This is called the sin of pride. The same sin that caused Lucifer to rebel against God."

Take heed to YOURSELF, Nick!

I am PROUD of Jesus, and of HIS Words, and will be till the day I die.

And sadly, you're not a brother in Christ.. you need to do as God commands, and repent and believe the Gospel.
Right now you are believing a different gospel.
Why do you think He commands us to do this?

It is because HIS GOSPEL is the ONLY TRUE Gospel. If we reject it, we are rejecting Him.

You know this but you have sold your soul to the demonic teachings of a huge cult.. I pray God opens your eyes.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 2:41PM

Margie,

More projection and distraction.

Stay on topic and answer my questions, please.

Was Saint Paul mistaken when he wrote, in Romans 5:19, "many were made sinners"?
What about when Paul wrote that ALL, pantes, have died, but, Enoch and Elijah did not die, according to the Scriptures? Did Paul also mess that up?
Do you believe infants sin? Did Paul also mean infants sin, when he wrote that ALL, pantes, have sinned?

Defend your position, for a change. Quit trying to change the subject.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 7:07PM

I answered you at length and for years here.
And all you ever do, like the liar that you are~ is constantly say I never answer you.

The Bible is CLEAR. The Catholic teachings are weird, and hard to follow as they are utterly convoluted as they are of the Devil himself~ but anyone ANYONE who has eyes to see can see that they are NOT biblical.

That you can possibly say to me, "Defend your position" when I have done nothing but that here, is laughable, or at least it would be if it weren't so pitifully disgusting, as it is such a blatant lie.

You're nothing but a flaming liar and hypocrite.
I hope you repent~ as it is GOD you must face, and not me, a lowly and forgiven sinner saved by His Grace.

Your continual stance against the WORD of GOD is disgusting and sadly for you... most tragic.

You KNOW in your conscience that when the Holy Spirit says, "ALL have sinned." It means ALL have sinned. And that has to include Mary, who gave birth to Jesus, PHYSICALLY.

I hope you repent.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 11:45PM

Margie,

Blah, blah, blah, blah. More distraction and projection, on your part. You will do anything not to answer those questions, won't you? Have you no sense of how ridiculous your non-responsiveness looks?

"You KNOW in your conscience that when the Holy Spirit says, 'ALL have sinned.' It means ALL have sinned."

I have made an airtight case that this is not what the Holy Spirit meant when He inspired Saint Paul to use the Greek word pantes, in his letter to the Romans. Only the willfully blind could not see this.

All you have to do is answer my questions.
Do you believe that infants can sin?
Did Paul mess up when he wrote, in the same chapter, that "many have sinned"?
Did the Holy Spirit inspire the Old Testament authors to write that Enoch and Elijah did not die, and then inspire Paul to write that "ALL [pantes] have died"? If He meant ALL, as in everyone who ever lived?

Until you can answer these questions, your argument, or, rather, your flawed interpretation, doesn't have a leg to stand on.
God Bless!

dave| 12.23.11 @ 3:39PM

Margie you contradicted yourself. in an earleier post you said the ALL have sinned had exceptions. now you say ALL have sinned means exactly ALL have sinned. which is it . Have we ALL sinned or not.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:25PM

I did NOT say there were exceptions. Nick did.
Put your glasses on!

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 11:59AM

Margie,

Still waiting for those answers to my questions.

Do you believe that infants can sin?
Did Paul mess up when he wrote, in the same chapter, that "many have sinned"?
Did the Holy Spirit inspire the Old Testament authors to write that Enoch and Elijah did not die, and then inspire Paul to write that "ALL [pantes] have died"? If He meant ALL, as in everyone who ever lived?

Until you can answer these questions, your argument, or, rather, your flawed interpretation, doesn't have a leg to stand on.
God Bless!

sjccoach| 12.21.11 @ 9:06AM

Another CINO trying to put lipstick on the RINO pig Romney. Mormonism is not Romney's problem. Romney stands for nothing but getting elected. That is why Romney will lose to Obama if he is the nominee.

Sam| 12.21.11 @ 9:56AM

The thing about Romney is that instead of acting like a career politician, he acts like a job applicant. This is actually a good thing. Unlike those who would like to impose their personal beliefs on everyone around them the moment they get a little power, Taliban style, he understands the idea of rule by consent of the governed. He made campaign promises to the people of Massachusetts and kept them. Only an idiot would attempt to impose an ultra right-wing government on the people of Massachusetts. Applying for the job of President of the United States, he takes into consideration the fact that most Americans are moderates. We can trust him to create jobs and help the economy instead of trying to impose a religious or ideological order on the rest of us. Romney has been a fine Mormon, just a lousy "Utah Mormon." The Mormon religion has very nuanced doctrines regarding abortion and homosexuality and a huge emphasis on personal choice instead of compulsion. Most of that is lost on the subset of Mormons who cling like sheep to the extreme right instead of their church's actual doctrines.

Stuart Koehl| 12.21.11 @ 10:00AM

Ever notice that Mormons never stress theology, but instead focus their proselytization efforts around purely pastoral matters, such as "family values"? Why do you think that is? Could it have something to do with the rambling incoherence of Joseph Smith fevered visions? Or maybe the wild improbability of American Indians being descendants of the Lost Tribes of Israel? Or maybe its the off-the-wall gnosticism of Mormon cosmology? Or perhaps its all of this together, which is far weirder than the sum of the parts, to the point that no rational human being could listen to a sales pitch shaped around Mormon theology and keep a straight face?

Yeah, that's it--Mormons don't stress their theology because it's a real loser when it comes to winning converts. Once their in, as long as members of the LDS comply with the outward requirements of the faith and don't challenge the leadership, they're free to take or leave it.

Is Mitt Romney a bad Mormon? If so, I'm glad to hear it--I wouldn't want someone who took it all seriously, let alone believed any of it, anywhere near the Oval Office.

Besides, it would establish a slippery slope. What next? A Scientologist for President?

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:21AM

Stuart,

You mindset represents the wacky and inconsistent politics that right-wing Christians espouse. Romney or other Mormons are not SUPPOSED to stress "THEOLOGY" in political situations. Why can't you ignorant people get this?

Your ridiculous criticism of Mormonism is just plain religious bigotry. Mormonism does "Christianity" better than any other Christian religion on the planet and social statistics bear that out.

Mitt Romney is the only front-runner who has actually LIVED the teachings of Jesus Christ consistently compared to others. "By their fruits, ye shall know them" not by their empty speech acts about theology.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 2:11PM

James,

Did Mitt Romney spend any time as a missionary?
Just curious.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:45PM

Works aren't the basis for Salvation, as your own cult teaches, Nick.
And if Romney were doing "Missionary" work for Mormonism, it isn't the preaching of the Gospel of Jesus Christ anyway, so what does it matter?

Shawn| 12.21.11 @ 3:07PM

Margie:

You failed to get the Biblical Memo that the sacrifices of the Law of Moses are not "the works" referred to as repentance, obedience, keeping commandments.

Every person who hopes for mercy from Jesus Christ IS required to repent, obey, and do their best to keep ALL of the commandments.

So, throw out the naive argument about "grace versus works." That was a silly old Protestant argument.

The Bible teaches that in order to receive Salvation we must repent, Obey and do our very best at Keep God's commandments.

He also promises that if we pray always, we'll be lead out of temptation.

We can't be saved "IN" our sins, but only "FROM" our sins.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:07PM

You might want to try actually reading what I said, instead of making things up.

Where did I say anything about the Law of Moses being the "works of repentance" or whatever your convoluted comment was?

And I made no Works vs. faith argument.

What I said was WORKS are not the BASIS for Salvation, but belief in the Gospel.

Apparently YOU cannot read.

I agree with EVERY Word of God, do you?

"..even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by Grace you have been saved),
and raised us up with Him, and made us sit with Him in the Heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His Grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

For by Grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God-- not because of works, lest any man should boast."
Eph. 2:5-9.

Shawn| 12.21.11 @ 6:08PM

Yes, we have heard many a Christian quoting Eph 2:8-9 and NOT repenting, obeying, or keeping one commandment.

It is not a "revelation" or a "hard concept" to understand that it is Christ's GRACE that saves an individual.

We can't forgive our own sins and we can't resurrect ourselves.

But my point is this: there is something that we must DO, in order for Christ to accept us and those things are:

* Repentance
* Obedience
* Doing best to keep commandments.

We are NOT accepted by Christ until we do them and keep doing them until we endure to the end.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:18PM

"We are NOT accepted by Christ until we do them and keep doing them until we endure to the end."

Again, I was speaking to HOW we are saved.. the way in which He saves us, and that is by His Grace.

How can one be doing His works before that?

He saves us by His Grace.. in our sinfulness. Are you actually trying to say we must be sinless first?

"While we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
Why, one will hardly die for a righteous man--though perhaps for a good man one will dare even to die.
But God shows his love for us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by His life.
Not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through Whom we have now received our reconciliation.

Therefore as Sin came into the world through one man and death through Sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned-- Sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but Sin is not counted where there is no law.

Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come.
But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the Grace of God and the free gift in the Grace of that one Man Jesus Christ abounded for many." Rom. 5:6-15.

This is the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you believe it? If so, then we are on the same page.
If not, then you need to consider what it is that you are choosing to believe.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:24PM

Oh, now I see it.
You are a Mormon, and you are trying to apply this to Mormonism, but my original comment to Nick is referring to the fact that being a Mormon isn't preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it is preaching the gospel of Joseph Smith and it therefore makes no difference as to being a Missionary.. if one preaching a different Gospel other than Christ's, it isn't true Missionary work for Him.
So the argument over faith vs. works can't even apply.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:21PM

p.s. And of course we are required to obey His Commandments. The Holy Spirit cause us to do so!
I don't disagree with you, so I'm not sure what you're trying to get at.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 3:30PM

Hey Margie: letter of James, Chapter 2:

[20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:37PM

Hey Papist:

Here:

I will further refute your cult's false teaching of Transubstatiation with the very Words of God:

""And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the Right Hand of God, then to wait until His enemies should be made a stool for His feet.
For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Heb. 10:10-14.

Since your cult falsely teaches that Christ's ACTUAL Body is present at Communion, and that you are ACTUALLY eating it physically (which is sick and insane)~ and the Word of God states that Christ offered His Body ONCE FOR ALL~ either you are going to REPENT of your false belief or perish.

Your choice. I care not!

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 3:49PM

So, the Lord's own teaching is a hard one for you to follow. Your choice, I suppose.

Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 26:

[26] And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.
[27] And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
[28] For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Now, maybe I'm using a bad translation. I'm using the King James version - which do you use? I'll be interesting in seeing which translation has Our Lord saying "this is symbolic of my body".

And also the references to where the Church teaches Mary to be Jesus' equal, and able to forgive sin, I'm still waiting on you for those, also.

Thanks, Margie.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:11PM

Answered above, lying Papist.
Having eyes, you refuse to see.
Believe what you wish~ in a demonic teaching that claims against the Word of God~ that you are committing Cannibalism and actually eating Christ's physical Body.

I presented the Words of God here~ proving that Jesus' Body is NOT present physically, and yet you choose to rebel against Him.

I pity you, but since you insist on believing demons instead of Christ, you already have your reward, Idolator:

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.

His Words~not mine.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 5:47PM

Margie,

Don't you know anything about the Resurrection?

It is not Christ's "physical" Body which is Truly Present in the Eucharist. It is His Resurrected Body, which is a spiritual body, as Saint Paul taught:

"It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body." 1 Cor. 15:44

So, it is not cannibalism. Another calumny against the Catholic Church. But, now you know better than to repeat such a ridiculous falsehood.
God Bless!

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:00PM

Haha!
So, now you do not claim that you are physically eating His Body!

So, then you are in agreement with what I have been saying, according to the Scriptures all along?

Suddenly you are changing your tune.
Why is that?
Liar.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 6:16PM

Margie,

I am changing nothing. The Gospel of Christ and the teachings of the Catholic Church never change.

Yes, I physically eat the Body of Christ when I consume the Most Holy Eucharist. Christ's Resurrected Body was a body, after all. It just wasn't the same earthly body He had before, because that body died. Resurrected bodies don't die.

So, the spiritual body that Saint Paul talks about is both physical and spiritual. If it was just physical, how could Christ have walked through doors, after the tomb was found empty? Or, how could Christ's normal sized body have fed billions of worshipers over the past 2,000 years?

No, Christ's Resurrected Body is something completely different than the earthly, physical Body He had before His Crucifixion. This is why it is not cannibalism.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:26PM

Now you are again saying that you are physically eating His Body.

So you are still promoting a demonic doctrine.

You cannot have it both ways.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 6:40PM

Margie,

Yes, Christ's Resurrected Body. Did you miss that part?

Christ's Resurrected Body and Blood completely replaces the bread and wine, while keeping the appearance of mere bread and wine. This is the Real Presence of the Eucharist.

I'm not trying to have it both ways, by the way.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:21PM

So convoluted, Nick.

The Scripture states that Christ was offered ONCE for the sins of many. And He is seated at the Right Hand of God, in Heaven.

You cult's teaching says what you say, but it's false. Jesus' Body doesn't appear physically or "spiritually" in the "Eucharist" ~ also not in the Bible.

See above Bible verses.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 12:06AM

Margie,

Christ died once for the sins of many. The sacrifice is perpetual. As Saint Paul makes clear in his epistle to the Hebrews. Also in 1 Cor. 10:21.

"You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons. You cannot partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons."

Table of the LORD was a Jewish phrase that meant the altar of sacrifice.

Paul also preached the Real Presence of Christ in the Most Holy Eucharist:

"The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?" - 1 Cor. 10:16

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:41PM

"Christ died once for the sins of many. The sacrifice is perpetual."

This is Apostacy. You're a blatant liar against the Word of God, and worship Man and not God.

That's what lying Papists do.

How you can possibly say in the same breath that Christ died ONCE FOR ALL as the Bible says, and then say His sacrifice is perpetual is absolutely unbelievable.

The fact that you are so blind and in such utter darkness is sad, but YOU have chosen your darkness.

I still hope you repent, Papist Idolator.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 2:10PM

Margie,

Christ's perpetual is spelled out quite clearly by Saint Paul, in his epistle to the Hebrews. Keep studying it.
God Bless!

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:25PM

"Margie,

Christ's perpetual is spelled out quite clearly by Saint Paul, in his epistle to the Hebrews. Keep studying it.
God Bless!"

I BEGAN WITH HEBREWS, ABOVE. But as usual, you NEVER regard anything I write.

"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the Right Hand of God, then to wait until His enemies should be made a stool for His feet.
For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Heb. 10:10-14.

NOW: that states God's Truth. There is no perpetual anything~ you assert there is.

What you are breathing is a lie, and you need to repent of it.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 3:13PM

Margie,

"I BEGAN WITH HEBREWS, ABOVE."

Yes, but you have to read the letter as whole, and in the context of the whole Bible. Not horribly wrench verses out of context as proof-texts to try, in vain, to prove the Catholic Church wrong.

"For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified."

Christ's "single offering" lasts forever.

"Now the point in what we are saying is this: we have such a high priest, one who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and the true tent which is set up not by man but by the Lord.
3 For every high priest is appointed to offer gifts and sacrifices; hence it is necessary for this priest also to have something to offer.
4 Now if he were on earth, he would not be a priest at all, since there are priests who offer gifts according to the law.
5 They serve a copy and shadow of the heavenly sanctuary; for when Moses was about to erect the tent, he was instructed by God, saying, "See that you make everything according to the pattern which was shown you on the mountain." - Heb. 8:1-5

Christ, as High Priest, offers Himself, perpetually, at the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 7:10PM

You are still wrong, kiddo.

His sacrifice was once for all, as it is written.

Deal with it, lying Papist.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 7:37PM

Such despicable deceit!
The Bible says His sacrifice was ONCE FOR ALL.
YOU say it is perpetual, as you wish to justify your Devilish Apostate teaching of "The Eucharist" where Jesus' Body is present, and you "physically" eat it.

That's the only way you can possibly get away with it, but yet you cannot!

He is not "Transubstantiated" into the "Host" you put under your tongue, you sick perverter of God's Word.

I hope you repent, as God is angry with perversion of His Christ and His Words.

He REALLY WILL throw unrepentant Idolators into Hell. Rev. 21:8.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 11:22PM

Margie,

"The Bible says His sacrifice was ONCE FOR ALL."

That doesn't contradict anything that I wrote. Do you know what the word perpetual means? Christ's sacrifice never stopped. It keeps on going as He continually offers Himself to the Father, in Heaven, until the end of the age.

Christ's once for all sacrifice is re-presented at every celebration of the Holy Mass, and has been for almost 2,000 years. Praise the LORD!

Why do you reject Saint Paul's words? Which were inspired by the Holy Spirit?
God Bless!

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 11:04PM

Margie,

I have already dealt with it. Your argument is with Saint Paul, not me.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:26PM

I agree with Paul, you sick punk.

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 11:54AM

Margie,

No, you don't.
Or, you would agree with the teachings of the Catholic Church, as the Apostles taught them.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:17PM

p.s. I wasn't referring to after one is saved, but HOW one is saved, and according to the Bible, it's by GRACE.

See above.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:23PM

That was to Sigmond Freud. I mean Seymour needs his glasses, above.

Todd S| 12.21.11 @ 8:54PM

I think I speak for 99% of those who read and make comments that we are sick of Margie and her religious ramblings and her intolerant bigotry for everyone that doesn't subscribe to her religious point of view. I imagine people in her own congregation are sick to death of her. You best realize Jesus preached compassion and not to pass judgment on everyone, that is best left to him as he made very clear.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 10:14PM

" You best realize Jesus preached compassion and not to pass judgment on everyone, that is best left to him as he made very clear."

He made clear no such thing!

Jesus COMMANDS you to "Repent and believe the Gospel." Mk. 1:15

Do you consider that compassionate? I do. I do, because I know that the reason He commands it is because He doesn't want anyone to go to Hell.

And real Christians are COMMANDED to preach this Gospel.

If His Words offend you, it is not my problem, liar.

I hope you repent before you breathe your last, otherwise you will end up like Christopher Hitchens. Is that what you want?

Papist Dan| 12.21.11 @ 10:43PM

Todd S,
Margie doesn't belong to any congregation. Nobody would have her in a Church. She sits and home alone fuming because Catholics believe Jesus is God and Mary is the Mother of Jesus. This gives meaning to her life. She wakes up screaming PAPIST!

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 11:14PM

Pitiful liar.

Papist Dan| 12.22.11 @ 7:38AM

IdiotBigotMargie,

You finally made it clear you believe in Arianism. You don't believe Jesus is God, and you don't
believe in the Trinity.
Margie the Arianist.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:41PM

Liar.
Repent, fool.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 5:50PM

Margie,

I was asking James, not you.

dave| 12.23.11 @ 3:46PM

Nick, yes Mitt Romney served a two year mission in France. That is how he learned to speak french. Hope this satisfies your curiosity.

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 11:51AM

Dave,

Thank you for the information.
God Bless!

Al Adab| 12.21.11 @ 10:29AM

Mr. Romney is simply an old school dissembler. isten to him about health care or immigration or the other issues. He is one of those politicians who has no core beliefs but simply finds the most meliflous way of saying nothing and avoiding thereby making any mistake.

His Morman faith is incompatable with abortion as one example yet his stand is wobbly. We don't even need to discuss LDS theology to understand that the nation is sadly in need of a president of principle not another pragmatist.

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 10:35AM

Like Michele Bachmann said, " Newt-Romney Aren't True Conservatives."

We Are Being Set Up By The RINO-CINO Ruling Elite And Their Flunkie Stooges.
These Are The RINO-CINO'S , Who Gave Us The Serial Traitor To Conservatism, John McCain Of McCain-Feingold, McCain-Kennedy,McCain-Lieberman,Gang Of 14, Opposing Bush Tax Cuts Of 2001 & 2003,TARP.

The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here And In Iowa.

martin j smith| 12.21.11 @ 10:36AM

The religion I endorse so to speak is this: Free Market Capitalism and American Exceptionalism.
All other relitions are OK with me except those religions who kill in the name of their religion.

bill| 12.21.11 @ 10:44AM

Mitt Romney should never get the GOP nomination because:

1. He crafted Romneycare in MA

2. He supports abortion

3. He helped enacted same sex marriage in MA

4. He supported cap and trade

5. He supported the TARP and auto bailout

6. He will never repeal Obamacare

7. He accomplished NOTHING as governor of MA

8. He is arrogant and lacked leadership

9. He is a Ford-Republican, RINO

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:08AM

Bill,

Is this just good ole Evangelical Christian lying again?

Honestly, I don't know how some of you professing Christians sleep at night. You sell your soul for religious bigotry every chance you get.

bill| 12.21.11 @ 11:23AM

James,

Obama has a cousin, Mitt Romney.

You want proof?

Romneycare = Obamacare

Oops, I did it again!

and that will bring down Romney in the GOP Primary, I hope so.

Shawn | 12.21.11 @ 12:59PM

Bill:

The individual mandate and the Federal Mandate are not in the same family.

Romneycare address 7% of Massachusetts citizens

Obamacare forces everyone to change their health insurance in some way.

Your claim that Romneycare is the same thing as Obamacare or that Romney and Obama are politically or philosophically equivalent is yet another cover for bigotry against Romney.

Ooops, I did it again. I told the REAL truth about some hypocritical Evangelical Christians.

bill| 12.21.11 @ 1:20PM

Shawn,

Please understand.

I do not have any issue the fact that Romney is a Mormon. I do not care about his religion.

I have problem with Romney's stance on health care, abortion, gay marriage, climate change, etc.

Romneycare is the foundation for Obamacare.

Romneycare has the individual mandate, and so does Obamacare. That's why Obamacare is unconstitutional, and 26 states sued Obama administration for that.

There is no bigotry, those are facts.

I'm proud to be an Evangelical Christians.

America is a nation of Christan. Jesus is our savior, and Bible is the holy book.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:45PM

You aren't allowed to say that, you see.
You MUST be a Bigot because you disagree with their Religion.
It matters not what the truth is, as cultists will die for cults and cult leaders.
Scripture matters not to them. They must shout hatred and Bigotry because they have nothing else to stand on.

You aren't allowed to say that you understand enough to know that you aren't voting for a Religion, but for what a politician, and you base your vote on what he believes in as far as conservative principles.

The insult will always be applied, unless you actually agree with his Religion.

Shawn| 12.21.11 @ 6:15PM

Bill:

No, those are your "cover" for your bigotry. How do we know?

Healthcare was about the mandate, but you support other mandates (car insurance). Newt Gingrich supported a FEDERAL mandate.

Abortion was about Romney's conversion, but then Ronald Reagan converted. Once again, you're inconsistent.

Gay rights or Gay marriage Bill? Romney has always been against Gay marriage and fought against it.

Climate change is a non-sequitur since you can't be "for" or against climate change, you can be only for or against regulation that is supposed to address it. Romney is NOT for regulation, but not stupid about the climate changing.

The problem Bill, is that your cover is "inconsistent" - you who claims to be a lover of absolute truth.

This is why we can safely assume that you're just a Christian bigot who doesn't want a Mormon in the white house.

You gave away your cover when you listed Romney and Huntsman - since Huntsman is very conservative.

Sorry, Bill, I am not buying ANY of your hate speech.

bill| 12.21.11 @ 10:48AM

Romney always touts as being governor of a blue state, MA.

Why didn't he run for the second term against current Gov. Patrick Duval?

Because Romney knew that he would have lost in a landslide, just like he lost his senate bid to Ted Kennedy in 1994.

Romney is a Big-government Democrat.

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:22AM

Bill,

Your idea of reality is inconsistent with reality.

bill| 12.21.11 @ 11:41AM

James,

Those are facts. If you're in denial, then that's your problem.

Shawn | 12.21.11 @ 1:01PM

What evidence do you have that proves Romney would have lost in a "landslide" in a re-election for the Governorship when Romney took MA's 3 billion deficit and turned it into a 2 billion surplus?

Or how Romney balanced the budget every year without raising income taxes?

Bill, you're living a fantasy - the Evangelical World of Bigotry and Arrogance.

bill| 12.21.11 @ 1:25PM

Shawn,

Gov. rick Perry balanced the budget of TX, a state with over 25 million people, 10 straight years without raising taxes.

Mitt Romney never balanced the budget and raised taxes. That's why he never ran for the 2nd term because he could not get re-elected. People in MA were fed up with him.

They are facts, not fantasy.

bill| 12.21.11 @ 10:49AM

My GOP Choice:

#1 Rick Perry

#2 Michelle Bachmann

#3 Newt Gingrich

#4 Ron Paul

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:24AM

Bill,

Your choices for the GOP result in a landslide win for Barak Obama.

So you win the "Evangelical Christian" skirmish, but we lose the war on America and Christian values for the future.

I would guess that you do not posses the spiritual gifts of discernment.

bill| 12.21.11 @ 11:44AM

Barack Obama will lose to anybody in the GOP field, except Romney and Huntsman.

One Liar + Two Morons = Disaster for America

Shawn | 12.21.11 @ 1:03PM

Bill,

You're such a religious bigot. You are the pride and joy of the American Spector crowd.

But, in the real world, there is only one GOP candidate that CONSISTENTLY beats Obama in the polls - Mitt Romney.

Name another candidate who polls better among Independents. Yep, that's what I thought. You have no one.

Romney WILL be the GOP nominee - and then you'll have to decide whether you vote for Romney or vote for Obama. (Not voting is a vote for Obama.)

bill| 12.21.11 @ 1:29PM

Shawn,

McCain was polling ahead of Obama in 2008 until the TARP fiasco unrevealed.

Mitt Romney is trailing Obama in many states, or ties statistically. That's not the problem. Romney is wrong on issues: healthcare, abortion, gay marriage, climate change. He will make conservative voters stay home.

Romney is a flawed candidate and will never win the GOP node.

Old Blevins| 12.21.11 @ 10:58AM

I remember reading an column (possibly in TAS) , regarding how offensive the "Messanic Jews" (a.k.a Jews for Jesus) were to the writer's Jewish faith. The issue was NOT that members of the Jewish faith were wrong to convert to Christianity. The offense, in his mind, was that these converts should stop referring to themselves as "Jews." As an evengelical Christian, I take offense with members of the LDS referring to themselves as Christians. The Christian community is riddled with various denominations, all claiming to be of one Faith, but with differing opinions on how to interpret the teachings in the Christian bible. (I, myself, disagree with some of the teachings within my own denomination.) The problem I have with the LDS is that the LDS has a second authoritive book....the Book of Mormon. In this discussion, one cannot reconcile the fact that a second authoritive book is outside of the scope of Christianity. Christianities' foundation is one compliation of writings...the Bible....and all other writings are considered spurious. I am perfectly fine with Mitt Romney stating that he is a Mormon, but like the Jewish gentleman, I find it offensive to for Mr. Romney to claim Christianity as well. He is either one or the other. My apologies to those members of the LDS who find this post offensive. I consider the members of the LDS to be my brothers and sisters in political combat. Let the replies begin!

C Smith| 12.21.11 @ 11:10AM

How to know to identify a CULT ( they believe they are Israel):

“EVERY PROMISE IN THE BOOK IS MINE, EVERY CHAPTER, EVERY VERSE, EVERY LINE … EVERY PROMISE IN THE BOOK IS MINE, MINE, MINE, MINE.” Unfortunately, the refrain of this old hymn exemplifies the error of essentially every “Christian” cult i.e., spiritualizing His Word, particularly in regard to the "promises" given to Israel. Jehovah’s Witnesses believe they are Revelation’s hundred and forty and four thousand chosen from all the tribes of the children of Israel. Mormons believe they are the ten lost tribes of Israel. British Israelism teaches that Britain is Ephraim and America Manasseh. Searching the internet for the phrase New Covenant, I inadvertently accessed a church of that name that “professes” the Lord Jesus Christ; they believe they are the new white Aryan Israel of God.

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:30AM

You disagree with the Book of Mormon because of the doctrine of "sola scriptura" which was invented in the 1580s.

In other words, you criticize Mormons based on a doctrine that was not given by Jesus Christ.

Good luck with that one on judgement day.

Romney claims that he's a Christian because he believes in and has faith in Jesus Christ as his personal Savior and has the audacity to try to live Jesus' commandments, unlike the other front-runner Newt Gingrich who is a two-time "ADULT" adulterer, even while he was trying to impeach Clinton for his adulterous behavior.

Your spiritual ability to pick the "Christian" follower does not exist in you.

Creedal definitions of Christianity were not instituted by Jesus Christ - they are the commandments and philosophies of men only.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:34PM

Christians believe the gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus and His appointed Apostles warned not believe another gospel, THAT is why we reject it.

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel--

not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

But even if we, or an Angel from Heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.

As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:6-9.

Call that Sola Scriptura if you wish!

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths." 2 Tim. 4:3 & 4.

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 1:38PM

Creedal definitions weren't created in a vacuum. They were discerned from scriptures.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:54PM

It depends which creeds you're talking about, Ryan. If they are biblically sound, they're to be rejected.
At least, that's what Christians do.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 2:04PM

"If they are biblically sound, they're to be rejected."

A little Freudian slip there, huh Margie?
Ha-ha!

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:07PM

You call it a Freudian slip, because you are a liar.
I call it a mistake, as God is my witness.
PUNK.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 2:12PM

It was a joke, Margie.

Lighten up, it's Christmas!
God Bless!

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:41PM

Interesting that you chose FREUD!

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 4:05PM

And interesting you chose the word "punk".

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:15PM

It is fitting, as the true definition means rotten, and that is what his words are to me, rotten, filled with deceit and false accusations repeatedly, and against the Scriptures, just as yours are.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 5:34PM

Margie,

That's because my words come from the Gospel of Christ. The true Gospel is "rotten" to you, unfortunately.
God Bless!

p.s. You've never heard of the expression "Freudian slip"? I don't believe it.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:04PM

Your words are from your cult, and they are lies and you are a disgusting liar.

You refuse to repent form your Idolatry.

You can believe what you wish, but God will throw Idolators who refuse to repent into the Lake of Fire. Rev. 21:8.

Why do you refuse to repent from it?

You teach to others the demonic doctrine that Mary was sinless, and that is blasphemy against the Spirit of God. So when you dare to accuse me of considering the Gospel of Jesus Christ is rotten you are nothing but a filthy lying Papist.

"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."" Rev. 22:11-13.

I hope you repent of your Idolatry.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 6:24PM

Margie,

I am not an idolater, at least not in the false way you fling that accusation.
So, I don't have to repent of that sin.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:26PM

Suit yourself.

James | 12.21.11 @ 3:00PM

Ryan,

Yes, that's what all of the different sects of Christianity claim - they interpretations were "discerned" from the scriptures.

But, in fact, they were discerned by individual minds "reading their opinion or philosophy" into the scripture.

The creeds still remain OUTSIDE the Bible and are extra-biblical.

This makes the "creedal" definition of Christianity extra-hypocritical since it appeals to an non-biblical and non-scriptural standard.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:15PM

What you have just done here is twist what you apply to Christianity to your cult in order to try and make it into the truth, when it is your cult that does the wrong "interpreting" of the Scriptures.

"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20 & 21.

The Scriptures speak for themselves, and nowhere in them are the false teachings of your cult.

Christianity and its very definition is based on Scripture.
The very word Christian means follower of Christ~ which means adherence to His Words and His Words only:

"He who does not love Me does not keep My Words; and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's Who sent Me." Jn. 14:24.

Since Mormonism is led by a false prophet (see my post, below)~ and contains false teachings AGAINST the Word of God~ such as Adultery (polygamy) and that Satan is the brother of Christ, it is nothing but a devilish cult that leads millions of souls astray.

It would be much better and in order to save your own soul to repent (change mind) and believe the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, as written in the Bible, would it not? After all, believing the Gospel IS the very basis for Salvation:

"The time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the Gospel." Mt. 21:32.

"I tell you, No; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish." Lk. 13:3.

Ryan| 12.22.11 @ 1:07PM

I think at times it was a little bit of both. Some parts in some creeds were based more on the desire to control.

However, there are plenty of "-isms" that we give names to that aren't "in the Bible" per se, but the arguments from one side or another may make sense in some forms because of rational deductions from scripture.

Which is why the definition of a real Christian is probably broader than most people think.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:46PM

There is no doubt and shouldn't be in any Christian's mind that you cannot be Christian without rejecting any teaching that isn't biblical.

Jesus says it Himself and I take my stand on the Rock that has made liars stumble, but to those who were destined to believe in Him for Eternal life, He is our Stronghold.

"He who does not love Me does not keep My Words; and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's Who sent Me." Jn. 14:24.

Ryan| 12.23.11 @ 8:36AM

Here's the problem.

We are human and we are flawed. I believe that ALL Christians believe something that is, as you say, "unbiblical." We are imperfect beings - which means we still sin.

Which means we believe something other than what scripture teaches.

Also, if your words are true, as well as your attitude toward Catholicism, then, according to your standards, practically every person who claimed Christ before the Reformation is burning in Hell.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:28PM

"Which means we believe something other than what scripture teaches."

No it doesn't. Speak for yourself, Ryan.

"Also, if your words are true, as well as your attitude toward Catholicism, then, according to your standards, practically every person who claimed Christ."

Yeah, that makes sense....????

Old Blevins| 12.22.11 @ 12:22PM

James:
I waited a day to reply, because when discussing matters of faith, tempers can quickly flare. (Reducing a member in a Bible class to tears was not one of my finest moments.) I would argue that "sola scriptura" was not invented in the 1580's, but was re-affirmed in the 1580's, but for the sake of discussion, I'll accept your position. It appears that we may be very close in our belief about Jesus of Nazereth. I will provide what I consider the distellation of the gospel message. Sinful mankind can be reconciled to God via Jesus' work on the cross. Jesus' righteouness is imputed to us by grace through faith. (God's work, not ours.) I am making the assumption that you basically agree with this proposition. Which brings me back to "sola scriptura." The previous proposition was derived by study of the teachings in Christian Bible. Why does the LDS need to assert that the Book of Mormon is an authoritiative book, if members of the LDS affirm Bible teachings? In other words, why is "sola scriptura" insuffcient for a Christian denomination? Please, help me to understand your position. This is a question which I have wanted to ask a member of the LDS for years, but have not had the chance.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:56PM

Well said, Blevins.

C Smith| 12.21.11 @ 11:01AM

On the 4th of July 1838 Rigdon preached his “salt sermon” … urging his hearers to wage “a war of extermination” on those who disturbed them…. and necessitated the calling out of the state militia…. Smith and Rigdon with others were arrested and imprisoned on a charge of treason, murder, and felony… In 1842 Smith was charged with instigating and attempt… to assassinate ex-Governor L. W. Boggs of Missouri:

“Rigdon… made a new translation of the Bible, in which prophecies of the coming of Joseph Smith and the nature of The Book of Mormon are inserted in the 50th chapter of Genesis and the 20th chapter of Isaiah respectively…. the church was “persecuted”… on the 25th of March 1832 Smith and Rigdon were tarred and feathered at Hiram….In 1836 the Kirtland Safety Society Bank was organized (in accordance with a “revelation” to Smith)…. In March 1837 Rigdon and Smith, the secretary and treasurer, were charged with violating the state law against unchartered banks, and they were convicted in October…. In November the “bank” suspended payments and… Smith and Rigdon left the state for Missouri…. [After a] determined attempt to depose Smith… there was organized… a band… bound to secrecy under penalty of death, and formed to punish all who opposed the Church and its supreme head. Numerous crimes and outrages were attributed to them…. On the 4th of July 1838 Rigdon preached his “salt sermon” … urging his hearers to wage “a war of extermination” on those who disturbed them…. and necessitated the calling out of the state militia…. Smith and Rigdon with others were arrested and imprisoned on a charge of treason, murder, and felony… In 1842 Smith was charged with instigating and attempt… to assassinate ex-Governor L. W. Boggs of Missouri…. There seems to have been no secret about Smith’s cohabiting with other women…. he had a revelation expressly establishing and approving polygamy.” (The Encyclopedia Britannica, Thirteenth Edition, London, vol. 18, pp. 843-844, 1926)

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:33AM

Joseph Smith prophesied that the LDS Church would fill North and South American and that the Book of Mormon would go to the entire world, while he was being driven from his home and the Mormons (at that time) were being scattered by "Christian" mobsters.

Today, there are millions of Mormons in North and South America and the Book of Mormon has been published in over 100 langauges, with publication reaching over 100 million copies in 2000.

Social statistics show that Mormons live the Bible's teachings more accurately and more ardently than their other Christian counterparts.

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 1:39PM

Which version of the Book of Mormon?

Shawn | 12.21.11 @ 2:49PM

Ryan,

There are not "multiple" translations like there is with the Bible. The LDS church owns the copy right, if that is what you mean.

Ryan| 12.22.11 @ 9:39AM

Not translations, but multiple revisions. Which one is correct?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:40PM

Numbers mean nothing.
Catholicsm has large numbers. Islam has large numbers. Buddhism has large numbers.
It means nothing.

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many." Mt. 7:13.

Jesus is the ONLY Way to Heaven, and His Gospel ONLY is what we must believe in in order to be saved:

"Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." Jn. 14:6.

And Jesus is the True Vine and only by abiding in Him do we bear His fruit:

"I am the True Vine, and my Father is the Vinedresser.
Every branch of Mine that bears no fruit, He takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
You are already made clean by the Word which I have spoken to you." Jn. 15:1-3.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 7:43PM

Margie,

"Numbers mean nothing."

"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus you will know them by their fruits." - Matthew 7:19-20

The Catholic Church, 2,000 years, and still going strong!
And, bearing much fruit, I might add.

Umm, how much fruit have you born, Margie?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:29PM

That verse has nothing to do with numbers.

And consider that since the Popes teach heretical, unbiblical and demonic teachings~ they are going to be held accountable for it, and consider their fruit~ yourself who also breathes the same deceit.

""The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light; but if your eye is not sound, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!" Mt. 6:22 & 23.

Your EYE is not sound.

Nick| 12.21.11 @ 11:47PM

Margie,

Christ Himself said, "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire."

By your own admission, the Catholic Church has been around since the beginning. Since the Apostle John was still alive. Her doctrines were taught by Saints Polycarp, Ignatius of Antioch, and Clement of Rome. Men who were taught directly by the Apostles.

The Catholic Church has not been "thrown into the fire" as Christ said would happen to false prophets. This proves that She is the Church that Christ founded.

Again, how much fruit have you born, Margie?
God Bless!

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 12:14AM

Yes, liars will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, along with Idolators.

That means YOU~ who believe the false and unbiblical teachings of the Papist~ thereby rejecting the Word of God~ unless you repent.

I hope you do.

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.

Do you WANT to burn?

"

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 12:40AM

Margie,

"Yes, liars will be thrown into the Lake of Fire, along with Idolators [sic]."

That is not what Christ said. He said that false prophets will bear no fruit. The Catholic Church has been bearing good fruit for almost 2,000 years.

Where is your fruit, Margie? You have turned almost everyone here against you.

By the way, do you have any idea what the "second death" even means, in that verse?

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:47PM

So, you are blatantly denying Rev. 21:8 as well?
No surprise there.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 2:20PM

Margie,

How did I deny anything?
All I did was ask you a question.
You sure do have trouble understanding plain, simple English, sometimes.

Or, more likely, you have no answer to the fact that Christ said false prophets would bear no fruit, yet, the Catholic Church's teachings have been around from the beginning.

According to Christ, if Saint Polycarp's, or Ignatius of Antioch's, or Clement of Rome's teachings didn't come from Him, through the Apostles, their teachings would have born NO fruit. But, we know that their teachings bore MUCH fruit.

How do you explain this undeniable fact?

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 7:12PM

"How did I deny anything?
All I did was ask you a question.
You sure do have trouble understanding plain, simple English, sometimes."

You sure have the typical haughty Papist condescending and lying spirit of Satan himself, accuser of the brethren!

Read your own words, then get back to me.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 11:02PM

Margie,

So, once again, instead of answering a simple question, you obfuscate. This is why you bear no fruit.

Papist Dan| 12.22.11 @ 12:06PM

Where do Arianists like you go, Idiot Margie?

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:49PM

Fool~ You lie.

Liars and Idolators like you get thrown into the Lake of Fire. Rev. 21:8.
Apparently, you don't care!

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 12:17AM

It came about by heretics whose teachings are still being taught in the cult of Catholicism, and "she" has not seen fit to ever repent.

The blood of the Christian Martyrs (whom you call heretics) is on "her" hands.

The whore of Babylon.

I hope you repent of believing its false doctrines and begin believing the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as written in the Bible.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 12:44AM

How many times do I have to explain this to you?

The Whore of Babylon was Jerusalem, in the first century A.D. She was destroyed in A.D. 70 by the ten horns of the beast, i.e., Rome.

"And the ten horns which you saw in the beast: These shall hate the harlot and shall make her desolate and naked and shall eat her flesh and shall burn her with fire." - Rev. 17:16

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:50PM

"How many times do I have to explain this to you?"

Hey Papist Idolator and liar:

How many times does God have to tell you:

"But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.

I hope you repent.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 2:24PM

Margie,

That is not a response.
Rev. 21:8 has nothing to do with Rev. 17:16 and the harlot.
Swing and a Miss! Try again.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 7:14PM

It is MY response, like it or not, Papist Idolator.

Read it and weep, unrepentant liar.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 11:00PM

Margie,

So, you admit that your comment is non-responsive, eh?
Well, that's a little progress, I guess.
God Bless!

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:30PM

Ughhhhh. You're an utter punk.
That is, utterly rotten.

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 11:27AM

Margie,

That is only your opinion.
Still love ya'!
Merry Christmas and God bless!

Mick Lee| 12.21.11 @ 11:23AM

If you are a Mormon and are supporting Romney, the smart thing to do to avoid arguments defending Mormonism as faithful Christianity. Why? Because it is a complete non-starter with the very people you are trying to ring in support for Romney. Any person who claims to be Christian but is unable or refuses to subscribe to the Three Ecumenical Creeds (Apostles, Nicene, and Athanasian) is simply being disingenuous or deceiving himself according to the lights of Catholics, the Orthodox and the vast majority of Protestants. For better or worse, like it or not, that’s the world you live in—not the one you want but the one you got.. You have to decide what you want to do. You can defend Mormonism’s Christianity or persuade evangelicals to support Romney—but it will be disastrous to try to do both at the same time.

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:43AM

Mick:

Go back to the days of the New Testament. Consider that none of the "creeds" existed in those days and those days are the days of the SAINTS.

Mormons don't care whether Mitt Romney wins the presidency if we have to choose between Mormonism or Romney's win.

Mormons are tired of the "Christian" lying about their faith, just so Evangelicals can keep their pastors employed.

The facts are that Creeds and historical connection DO NOT make someone a Christian. These are cute little word games that some Christians like to play to exclude others being accepted.

Mormons are Christians. (Period.) Why? Because they believe in the Messiah of the Old Testament and the Savior of the New Testament (WITHOUT THE CREEDS).

And no Mick, Mormons do NOT have to accept the creeds to be Christian. This is not a biblical teaching. The creeds are not found in the Bible.

So no, under God, Mormons do NOT have to accept the creeds.

The American Spectator likes to stir up contention because after all is said and done, it 1) cannot genuinely endorse any other candidates that can beat Obama, 2) its Christian editors are mad that a Mormon is close to the presidency, and 3) Evangelical Christianity continues to be "insecure" in it's place within historic Christianity, and with its standing before God.

Mormonism on the other hand, has a firm foundation of LIVING Apostles and Prophets like the New Testament Church and has REVELATION as its guide and the Gift of the Holy Ghost.

If I were an Evangelical Pastor, I'd be worried too. But telling lies about Mormons won't work. It never has. It's better just to find another source of employment rather than preaching the word of God for filthy lucre.

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 1:40PM

The Bible actually has creeds within its text, and most creeds were formed from sciptural study.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:45PM

Who cares about creeds?
The Word of God, Jesus Christ is LORD, and His Words are found in the Bible, and they are what Christianity is based on, not creeds written by Man, nor his traditions!

Creeds are well and good ONLY if they are biblically based.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:49PM

"Mormonism on the other hand, has a firm foundation of LIVING Apostles and Prophets like the New Testament Church and has REVELATION as its guide and the Gift of the Holy Ghost."

This is total bunk. These so called apostles are no apostles as they preach a different gospel, and not that of Jesus Christ.

Do these apostles teach that Satan is Jesus' brother, as is taught in your Religion?

How about Adultery (as in Polygamy)? This is blasphemy against the Spirit of the LIVING God.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 7:15PM

James, I wonder why you didn't answer my questions?
Hmmm?

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 11:25PM

Margie,

You, of all people, are questioning someone else's non-responsiveness?
Pot calling kettle, anyone?

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:32PM

What an utter scumbag you are, Papist.
I spend hours posting Scripture to your false teachings.. ya know, one DISGUSTING thing about you Pope ass-kissers and Mary worshippers~ you lie like rugs and have no problem doing it!

Your Papists of old did that same thing.. and you follow well in their lying, filthy, disgusting footsteps.

UGGGHHHHHH.
Sickening.

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 11:35AM

Margie,

May you and Victor have very Merry Christmas, and a Prosperous New Year.
I pray that God answers your hopes and prayers.

I spend hours posting Scripture to show that your interpretations are mistaken, by the way. And, I never call you a liar.
How sad.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:33PM

And I'm still waiting for an answer, James.

INTERESTING how the butt-kissing Pope Idolator clacks with the other cultists here, isn't it?
Ughhh.

Papist Dan| 12.24.11 @ 8:33AM

IdiotBigotMargie
All kidding aside, you are one stupid, rude, ignorant,disgusting person.

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 11:42AM

Margie,

And I'm still waiting for many answers from you.

But, you have no answers that can refute the teachings of the Catholic Church. So, you try to distract and obfuscate, rather than answer.

This is what Toddard, 3/5 Bob, and Marxist Reader used to do, too, when they couldn't counter my arguments.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 11:50AM

Margie,

p.s. INTERESTING that both Margie and the Church of Latter Day Saints teach that the Church apostatized at the beginning, in the first century A.D., with the death of the Apostles, isn't it?
Ughhh, indeed.

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 12:02PM

p.p.s INTERESTING that both Margie and the Church of Latter Day Saints both teach that Christ was not One Being with the Father, as the Scriptures teach, isn't it?

Andrew Keirns| 12.21.11 @ 11:36AM

Unfortunately, the race card looms. The Mormon Church didn't allow blacks in leadership until the 1970's (?). Mr. Obama's team will use this fact late in the game -- they have no fear of running against Mitt Romney.

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:52AM

Andrew:

Romney and Romney's family were progressives within the Republican party and their Church when it came to Civil Rights and blacks.

Have you failed to remember that the Republican party has a bad history when it comes to civil rights?

And the little known fact about Morminism is this:

Joseph Smith was the first white leader of an all white Church in the 1830s that BAPTIZED and ORDAINED a black man to the priesthood. In fact, that first black man was then ordained to be member of the First Quorum of the Seventy since the New Testament days.

Joseph Smith ran on an abolitionist platform, and the Book of Mormon declares that "all are alike unto God, black, white, bond and free..."

Today there are some famous black Mormons including Leroy Cleaver (Cleaver was the most well-known American Black Nationalist and Radical in the 1960s), Thurl Bailey, and Gladys Knight.

SO, bring it on. Romney and Mormonism is ready for the ridiculous and out-dated criticisms.

The latest poll shows Romney beating Obama by 2 points.

So, Andrew, why do you let your prejudices feed your opinions rather than facts?

Andrew Keirns| 12.21.11 @ 12:02PM

I actually like Mitt Romney -- it doesn't matter if he is Mormon or not. Do I really need to say I have friends who are Mormon? I'm merely pointing out the Chicago political machine will not pass over the fact that Mitt was a bishop, and the Church in which he was a bishop did not allow blacks in leadership positions. I'm not Mormon-bashing or perpetuating any misinformation or stereotype -- I think I came across the Mormon Church black leadership fact in reading an American Spectator article -- otherwise I would never have known this. This is not an argument over who did what when regarding blacks in America. If it were, I'd reference this excellent piece by Jeffrey Lord on August 12, 2008, "Democrats: The Missing Years"

Shawn | 12.21.11 @ 1:10PM

Andrew:

Romney was not a Mormon lay Bishop when the priesthood ban was in effect. Romney was assigned (called) to be a Bishop many years later after the ban was rescinded.

Most information you read in the MSM about Mormonism or the priesthood ban comes from Evangelical polemical sources and is not accurate.

Romney's Dad, George Romney, was the most active in the Republican Party during the 1960s when it comes to Civil Rights. In fact, Republicans pressured George to set it aside. But George Romney didn't and as Governor introduced reforms in Michigan for blacks. This is the Romney family legacy in which Mitt was raised.

Andrew Keirns| 12.21.11 @ 1:16PM

This is good to see -- Romney has a credible response to an inevitable race card play by the Chicago political machine. Thanks for the education.

Al Adab| 12.21.11 @ 2:49PM

Since you bring up George, you might do well to remember that he, in alliance with Nelson Rockefeller, opposed the Conservative movement from its beginning.

bob alou| 12.21.11 @ 1:17PM

Actually the Republicans, beginning with Lincoln, have a pretty good record on civil rights. If you believe Ann Coulter, and I do, you might want to read the following excerpt from her most recent book. http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=43915

martin j smith| 12.21.11 @ 11:43AM

is there an element in the Republican Party that wants to throw the election ? It is not about Romney as Mormon its about Romney as a fraud politically speaking. Sort of like a second McCain who blew the 2008 election.

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:53AM

Martin,

This is just more BS. You can't name a better candidate who can beat Obama and who can't cite any "Fraud" on Romney's part.

Your bigotry feeds your opinions - nothing more.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:43PM

Wow~ if you saw that comment as "Bigotry" you really are a lightweight.

James| 12.21.11 @ 3:16PM

Margie:

The comment is "bigotry" since "fraud" is a punishable crime, so therefore, want "else" could ground his hypocritical criticism?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:19PM

I see no hypocrisy in his comment. It was perfectly clear.
And I agree with him, as stated above.
It matters not his Religion~ after all~ in this country, he isn't able to enforce it as a state Religion.

If he could, no one but Mormons would vote for him.
It has to do with what he believes as to how he would run the country~ what his beliefs are politically~ can you not see that?

The Big E| 12.21.11 @ 11:47AM

I do not wish to wade into a theological discussion on Mormonism - I am a Methodist myself - and I am no fan of Mitt Romney, as anyone who has read my comments on him in the past could attest, but I will say this to all evangelicals who are concerned about Romney's Mormon faith:

Would you prefer Romney's Mormonism or Barack Obama's Black Liberation Theology?

THAT is the real question.

If Romney gets the nomination, that is the choice you will have, and it is a choice you cannot avoid. If you stay home or vote for some third party crack-pot, then what you are really doing is choosing Obama's Black Liberation Theology, because that will be the outcome.

Personally, I've found that I have a lot in common politically with most of the Mormons I've encountered in life.

I've learned from the past three years that I have NOTHING in common with the followers of Black Liberation Theology, which as far as I can tell, is a doctrine based on hatred and resentment.

So, vote for whom you wish for whatever reasons you wish in the primary.

But make no mistake about it, if Mitt Romney is the nominee and you stay home in the general election, you will be siding with the forces which stand for everything you oppose.

For me, that's a pretty easy choice.

Old Arizonan| 12.21.11 @ 2:35PM

Just a warning about Morman candidates. The voters of this state with a great deal of help from republican women, elected Democrat Janet Napolitano who is now Sec. of Homeland Security our Governor over a strong Conservative because he was Mormon. Too many women and good republican ones, will not vote for a Mormon. Whether the reason is valid or not, this is the fact.

Slacker| 12.21.11 @ 12:17PM

When stressing his Mormonism, should he emphasize that he has secret magic sacred underwear? Female voters might find that charming.

Should he stress the concepts of blood atonement? I think that might play well with pro-life voters.

Should he enlighten us on the existence of multiple gods in multiple universes? That’s deep thinking. Stephen Hawking stuff. Let the left try and smear him as another anti science republican dunce.

Should he explain how God used to be a man on another planet? Shore up the stargazer vote and pick up some humanists from the left.

I'm not sure how Jesus visiting with Indians will get him any votes but, I'm sure Mr. Allot can spin it.

Dave Williams| 12.21.11 @ 12:53PM

"Follow the shoe!" "No, follow the gourd!" ....Ah, religious belief, the gift of humor that just keeps on giving and giving...I personally don't give a hoot whatever a candidate's cockamamie beliefs might be, and neither should anybody else. It is ALWAYS more useful to stay in the real world; the question is, can Romney get this country out of its current death spiral? He can surely do better than the current pretender, King Obombast.

Shafer Parker| 12.21.11 @ 12:55PM

What Mormon values? That is Romney's root problem. Unlike Christianity, rooted in the 10 Commandments and entirely compatible with the best of natural law, Mormonism has no transcendent values. Polygamy was a value, until it became a political hindrance. Then it became a sin. Blacks could not enter the priesthood, until that became unpopular. Then a "revelation" changed everything. I contend that Romney's well-earned reputation as a flip-flopper stems from his Mormonism. He's been taught to think that way by his religion. He must never be allowed near the White House.
Shafer Parker

SF_Exile| 12.21.11 @ 1:25PM

Mitt does tend to tout being Governor of Mass. more than he should. Firstly, it's the state that gave the country Mike Dukakis and secondly the largest public works boondoggle known as the Big Dig. Calvin Coolidge was a long time ago.

I think Mitt decided after fighting with the hack-laden legislature for three plus years he'd had a belly-full of it. Thwarted at every turn by hostile, ultra-liberal solons he threw up his hands. Massachusetts is a state where its full time legislators are allowed to continue holding down their regular practices. In this case, it's mostly made up of attorneys and criminal defense at that. This indicates the sort of mind-set that exists in the halls of the esteemed state house..... it's also the state where its last three consecutive Speakers of the House have been indicted - the most recent is now serving 8 years at Club Fed.

Mitt had also spent the final year or so of his tenure out of state fundraising rather than governing. For all intents and purposes his Lieutenant Governor, Kerry Healey, was running the show. She showed promise and a general amount of support within the state. Unfortunately she was set up to fail by having a third-party candidate show up and split the conservative vote. (yes, there are conservatives in MA - we've just learned to keep our heads down.....)

I was living in Boston when Mitt ran against Ted Kennedy for his seat. If I recall correctly, Mitt was within a few points of Ted throughout the campaign, and at one point in late summer was pushing through a surge. Much of that was due to Ted's camp not taking the threat to his seat seriously. He skated through much of the campaign assuming the machine would eke out another win. When things began to get dicey, Ted's campaign launched their now-infamous strategy of painting Mitt and Bain Capital as job killers. He knew how this would play in the state which is so pro-union. Anything that smacks of job elimination, even falsely, would be an advantage. Mitt's side did not respond swiftly or, frankly, nastily enough to these assertions and when they did, it was half hearted at best. I think this was what Martha (Marsha) Coakley was counting on when she snootily refused to campaign outside of Fenway Park before the Special Election against Scott Brown. However, I think there's been a slight change in MA since 1994....

As others have stated, Mitt does tend to have a little of the 'go along to get along' syndrome when taking a stand on social issues. I have problems with his flip-flopping on abortion and the way the state-run health care program was implemented. Especially the portion of the law which fines people for not having some sort of coverage. If he can't find a way to justify these two issues to the American public, it's not gonna matter whether he's Mormon or Zoastrian. He won't win.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:52PM

Jospeh Smith was a false prophet, and Mormonism is a cult:

Joseph Smith's False Prophecies
by Matt Slick

Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons, claimed to be a prophet of God. Was he a prophet of the true and living God? There are two ways to find out. First, compare what he says to Scripture and if what the Prophet teaches contradict Scripture, then he is false. The second way is to examine any prophecies that he has made. If a single prophecy fails, then the person is a false prophet.

Please note that having several fulfilled prophecies and even a single false prophecy still means that the person is not a true prophet of God. The test for a prophet is not if he gets them most right, but all right. The Bible tells us...

"But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 "And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 "When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him," (Deut. 18:20-22). emphasis added.

We can see that the criteria of a true prophet is not failing when predicting the future. This is because God, who is outside of time and the creator of the universe, makes no mistakes when he tells us what will happen. Those prophets whom he has called will not make a mistake and prophesy the future, since to do so would mean the person is not speaking on God's behalf. Therefore, if anyone claims to be a prophet of God and speaks in the name of God and gives a prophecy that fails, then the person is not of God.

Did Joseph Smith make any prophecies? Yes he did. Here are just a few of his false prophecies.

False prophecies of Joseph Smith

History of the Church
Prophecy about Jesus' return within 56 years - "President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion--our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh--even fifty-six years should wind up the scene." (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189). See context.
Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.
Doctrine and Covenants
Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith's Generation - "Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house... 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed." (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.) See context.
The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.
The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.
All Nations would be involved in the American Civil War - "Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; 2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations," (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3). See context
This is clearly another false prophecy since all nations did not get involved in the American Civil War.
Prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in "not many days": "For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree," (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87) See context
The sun hasn't yet been hidden nor has the moon hidden its face.
This prophecy was given on 12/27/1832. "Not many days hence"? Since the writing of this article on 6/22/06, it has been 63,364 days or 173 years, 5 months, 26 days. I think that 63,364 days is more than "not many days".
For reference to January 1, 2000 it was 61,000 days (even), or 167 years, 5 days.
Pearl of Great Price
Prophecy that Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled - "In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when 'they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,' but soon would come," (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40). See context
Isaiah 11:6-9 says, "And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7Also the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den. 9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea."
This has not yet been fulfilled. The wolf is not dwelling with the lamb, the calf and the lion are not together, nor are the cow and bear grazing together. The lion is not eating straw like an ox. Nursing children are not playing in the dens of cobras.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 3:04PM

Matt Slick?

I guess that explains your line of "thought", Margie.

Do yourself a favor and "get out more often", theologically speaking.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:18PM

Oh look~ a lying Papist defending another cult.
Surprise, surprise.

You see, Papists do not care about the truth of any matter.
And this one is a case in point.

If there is anything UNTRUE in that summation~ deal with it, Papist.
Go ahead, make our day.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 3:38PM

Margie: I'm no defender of Mormonism.

Likewise, I'm no defender of Matt Slick. A broken clock is correct twice a day, and Matt Slick is one broken clock.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:20PM

You just defended it. Are you that hypocritical that you don't even see it?

Idiot.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 4:37PM

I didn't defend Mormonism, Margie, I made the statement that if you're a follower of Matt Slick, it explains much of what you say. Matt Slick is known to present false teachings of the various Christian groups, then attack them. If you studied logic (did you?) you'd recognize this as the classic "straw man" argument. Not very logical, but in Matt's case, it likely makes for a good living.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:00PM

You're name ought to be Slick, for you are the epitome of the word.

I follow no man but Christ Jesus, King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

I do not know anything about Matt Slick, but what he wrote there perfectly expose exactly how Moromism is a cult, and he stood rightly on Scripture.

Christians are Christians because they defend the Scriptures, Jesus Himself IS Truth.

Now, please explain how Matt Slick's words were anything other than true.

Go ahead, slick one, as it is obvious to all who have eyes to see that your words are utterly indefensible and filled with blatant lies.

By the way, Troll~ why can't you use your usual moniker here?

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 5:04PM

Margie: not sure who you think I am, but I've only posted on this site (or any other, for that matter) under a single name.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:08PM

Well, since you have lied repeatedly here, I don't trust you, sorry.

James| 12.21.11 @ 3:14PM

Yeah, poor Matt got it wrong.

Margie,

Many of the Bible's prophets even fail Matt's standard. Matt condemn's Joseph Smith and Bible prophets too. I suppose the BIble isn't true either?

The success of Mormonism and the fruits that it is the restored New Testament Church is well documented.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:22PM

What Matt said was the truth, based on Scripture, and plainly written.

And the Prophets of God in the Bible, well they WERE the Prophets of God.

And Matt condemned them? You are choosing to hallucinate there, cultist.

"The fruits of the RESTORED" New Testament?"

Wow. You mean the one that preaches Polygamy (Adultery)?

Repent, and believe the Gospel of God. Beginning in Mk. chapter one.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 3:51PM

Margie: how can it be the truth if it's "based" on Scripture since, as you've told us, Scripture alone is the truth?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:21PM

You aren't making sense. No surprise there though.

SeymourGlass| 12.21.11 @ 4:58PM

I'm "not making sense" to you - well, I'd give this another try but, likely would be wasting my time.

You may indeed be a good person, Margie - genuine in your beliefs and a supporter of widows and orphans (re James 1:27).

Work out your own salvation as you choose, but please keep Mark 9:38-40 in mind and at least give others the benefit of the doubt if they don't follow Christ the exact, specific way you do.

It's been wrong of me to be sarcastic with you, and I did so out of anger with your misguided words regarding my faith.

Do yourself a favor and lose your anger.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:23PM

You are wasting your time? Such arrogance, when I have spent many hours here looking up Scriptures and posting them in order to try and present God's truth to you, and others.

I am nothing but one of the worst and lowest of the world that God chose to have mercy on and saved me from myself!

Is not what He does? He takes pleasure in saving the lowest of the low, because then we can boast in Him.. my confidence is not in me, but in Him.

I know He is True and faithful and I also know that while He is a loving God He also means what He says, and He says that it is a fearful thing to fall into His Hands.

And why should I not have anger at hurling insults and false teachings, as God Himself warns us that unless we believe His Gospel, we will perish?

There are cults in this world that have been cults for centuries, but it doesn't mean that they are teaching the Gospel.

When God warns us to repent and believe,, He means it. And what we believe in determines either our Salvation, or our eternity in Hell.

And it isn't up to me to give anyone the benefit of the doubt~ or not~ as the Bible commands me to preach the Gospel, according to the Scriptures and according to Christ. And He also tells us that we are not fighting against flesh and blood, but against spirits and the Devil himself~ who through false teachers and men without consciences seek to pervert His Holy Words.

His Word tells Christians to be strong in His Might, and well studied so that we can take on the flaming darts of Satan, who uses men to try and destroy those who dare to speak His Words.

The Papists killed Christians for six centuries for it. It's the truth.
And what I speak against are it's false teachings.. they haven't changed.
As you saw in our conversation above~ the horrible teaching of Transubstantiation.. it's reprehensible. And yet did you know that the Popery put to death Christians like me for the simple reason that they refused to agree with this false teaching?

What you see as anger is simply a refutation of false teaching because it is strong and based on Scripture.

So, it isn't a matter of what I believe, but of what the Bible actually says.
My words aren't misguided, because they aren't my own words.

And when the Papists will quit with the lies and insults, I won't seem so angry in my responses.

Human beings get angry.. and anger is not sin in itself. Anger is something God can use to get us to quit sinning when we get sick of it enough.. it is only wrong if we sin because of our anger.

"Be angry but do not sin; do not let the sun go down on your anger, and give no opportunity to the Devil." Eph. 4:26 & 27.

I have nothing against you personally, I'm just here to defend the Gospel as best I can, and thank you for admitting your wrong.. if that is an apology, it is accepted, and I hope we can have sincere discussions in the future.

Gov Boggs| 12.21.11 @ 2:10PM

Mormonism is a dangerous, insidious cult that has been hell bent on destroying the fabric of our great nation. From making up their own religion to polygamy to squatting on sovereign land that clearly did not belong to them, this is a hideous "faith" that needs to be erased from the face of the earth once and for all.

DEATH TO THE MORMON! DEATH TO MORMONISM!

James| 12.21.11 @ 3:15PM

Spoken like a true right-wing Tea Party conservative.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:25PM

No, it isn't.

And your classification of and trying to pin this individual's stupidity as "Right Wing TEA Party conservatives" only serves to prove your warped thinking as well.

Speaking the truth about a cult is one thing and it isn't hate or bigotry, but this Troll doesn't speak for me, nor the majority of conservatives, TEA Party or not when IT says, "Death to..."

Gov Boggs| 12.21.11 @ 3:38PM

Read about the Mountain Meadows Massacre then you'll see why they should all be wiped out as a faith and as faithful.

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 3:55PM

small potatoes compared to the Communist massacres of the last century that led to 200 million dead.

Gov Boggs| 12.21.11 @ 4:07PM

Communism has done more to help the poor than a shady hypocritical cult ever will. Maybe if right wingers would stop flirting with cults they'd be taken more seriously?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:33PM

Trying to justify murderous cults for murders committed by them is no justification.

What led them, as well as the murderous Papists to murder?

It was what they taught. What they believed. And what they taught and believed isn't the Gospel of Jesus Christ, otherwise, they would not have murdered Christians.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:30PM

There is such a thing as God's Judgment Day, and it is coming sooner than we think.
As of Jn. 3:16 when God sent His Son into the World to die for SIN, everyone has the chance to repent and believe in Him.. and at the resurrection, either that of the Just, or the unjust~ God will judge us all on that basis.

Did we reject His Son~ or believe in Him. That's the Gospel, and that's the Judgment:

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only Son of God.

And this is the Judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.

For every one who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed." Jn. 3:16-20.

And I will remind you:
"Thou shalt not Murder." Exd. 20:13.

Yes, the God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New.

Gov Boggs| 12.21.11 @ 5:39PM

All that and 95 cents will buy you a cup of coffee. Don't you want the cutists punished for their crimes? They should have been killed nearly 1 1/2 centuries ago, but we have been coddling too much. Ever heard of an eye for an eye? This needs to happen with the Mormons. All their temples, meeting places, members, et al, burned to the ground. Then and only then will America be restored to its natural glory.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 6:06PM

You're nuts.
Get thee behind me, Satan!

Gov Boggs| 12.21.11 @ 7:13PM

I'm not the one who immediately goes to scripture when I'm confused by the truth. So no, you're nuts.

Get your sorry self to a school, you teabagger.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:33PM

Get thee self to the Scriptures and learn of God.
Repent, and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
There is NO other way, but Christ!

"Agree with God, and be at peace; thereby good will come to you." Job 22:21.

Gov Boggs| 12.21.11 @ 9:46PM

Oh come off it, you teetotalling liar. Stop preaching and get laid like normal people. You're worse than the damn Mormons.

Gov Boggs| 12.21.11 @ 3:35PM

This is a cause Republicans and Democrats can unite behind, wouldn't you say? And for the record, I'm a liberal Democrat, so coddling to Mormon sympathizers won't work on me, bud.

Bart| 12.21.11 @ 7:31PM

You're lying. Liberal democrats don't call for the genocide of an entire people.

You're a wack job Evangelical right winger and you know it.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 8:33PM

You're an idiot.

Gov Boggs| 12.21.11 @ 9:47PM

Takes one to know one.

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 2:14PM

Uh Oh !

American Spectator's Resident Joisey White Trash Bigot Broad Is In The Building.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:42PM

Spoken like the true Papist.

James| 12.21.11 @ 3:14PM

Margie:

You are aware that Protestantism has no claim to priesthood authority, right?

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:32PM

I am not a "protestant", I'm a Christian saved by Grace and brought to Him by pure LOVE to an unfailing belief in His Gospel, and in every Word of God.

"Priesthood authority" as far as what Catholicism or any other Religion teaches is null and void according to the Bible, as Christ who is the High Priest Himself has died once for all, doing away Sin once for all, as He became the Sacrificial Lamb of God.

Read Hebrews, one of the most beautiful books in the Bible, and pray that God opens your eyes to His Word:

"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, He sat down at the Right Hand of God, then to wait until His enemies should be made a stool for His feet.
For by a single offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified." Heb. 10:10-14.

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 2:55PM

Like I Said, American Spectator's Resident Joisey White Trash Bigot Broad Is In The Building.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:32PM

Like I say, the Word of God is TRUTH.

Repent, liar.

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 3:47PM

Pent Hypocrite !

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:34PM

I have no need to repent for I have believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ for almost 40 years.

What's your excuse, lying Papist Troll?

James| 12.22.11 @ 11:34AM

Margie,

If you believe you have "no need to repent" then you're under the influence of Satan or pride or both.

While true, you may believe, but your nature hasn't been changed. You must do your best to keep the commandments of God.

If you fail, you need to repent.

I am going to assume that you do NOT keep all of the commandments all of the time. IN fact, I have seen you break a few here.

You can't say that you "have charity" and then act the way you have treated Clint.

Search the scriptures diligently and make a list of the things that Jesus Christ wants you to "DO", not "confess" but actually do.

Jesus wants us to improve our behavior until we act like he acts. He isn't going to wave a magic wand over us and change us against our rebellious wills. Repentance is something YOU do, Christ doesn't do it for you.

Those who have been touched by the Holy Spirit have no more disposition to do evil, harm others, or break God's commandments.

If you still struggle against the flesh in small or large ways, you have "NEED" of repentance.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:56PM

"If you believe you have "no need to repent" then you're under the influence of Satan or pride or both."

You are a Mormon who doesn't believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

It is YOU who needs to repent.

I repented and believed the Gospel of Jesus Christ (and NO other) about 40 years ago, so in THAT REGARD I have NO need of repentance, hypocrite.

As a Christian, I'm a repentant sinner.. saved by Grace, and live a life of repentance.

Now: When are YOU going to repent and BELIEVE the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, since you need to give up believing the lies of Satan (your cult)?

Then you will have the authority to admonish me.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:35PM

Yoo-Hoo, Jamesey?

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 12:03PM

Yoo-Hoo, Margie?

Still waiting for those answers to my questions.

Do you believe that infants can sin?
Did Paul mess up when he wrote, in the same chapter, that "many have sinned"?
Did the Holy Spirit inspire the Old Testament authors to write that Enoch and Elijah did not die, and then inspire Paul to write that "ALL [pantes] have died"? If He meant ALL, as in everyone who ever lived?

Until you can answer these questions, your argument, or, rather, your flawed interpretation, doesn't have a leg to stand on.
God Bless!

Shawn| 12.21.11 @ 3:02PM

Shafer:

When you use your Pastor or polemical sources for Mormonism, you end up looking like a fool.

Joseph Smith said:

The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it' ( Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, sel. Joseph Fielding Smith [1976], 121).

Why is it that Christians quickly forget that Abraham, Jacob and Moses were all polygamists? Jacob had 4 wives from which came the 12 tribes of Israel. In fact, Christians hope to become Abraham's seed - a very polygamous seed, indeed. (Polygamy was codified into the Law of Moses).

My point is not that we should re-institute polygamy but that you "Christians" claim that God is the same yesterday, today, and forever, and while you have forgotten about your Judeo-Christian polygamous past, God hasn't forgotten it.

Mormonism is founded upon a covenant with Christ. Every week faithful Mormons renew this covenant with God by eating and drinking "the body and blood" of Christ in symbolism and promise to remember Jesus Christ and keep his commandments.

And, for the record, Mormons were FORCED to end plural marriage because the U.S. Government said, "Stop, or we will take away your land, your Church buildings, and your Temples." Let freedom ring.

In Mormonism, black men and women were baptized in the 1830s and black men were ordained to the priesthood, 40 years before the U.S. Government outlawed slavery. It was only later that a ban was instituted for reasons that are unknown.

But what of Christianity? For centuries slavery was "God ordained," but then the Civil War cured that. Up until Martin Luther, there were many Christian practices that didn't carry over into Protestantism. What happened? More flip-flops?

Romney is no more a flip-flopper than Bachmann, Santorum, Perry, or Paul. The flip-flopper label was invented by the Huckabee campaign to stop Romney in 2008.

But, Mormonism is definitely more open-minded than Evangelical Christianity. Isn't it Evangelical Christianity that still believes that God created the universe in an instant but made it look like it took a million years? Wouldn't such a belief make the Evangelical God the biggest deceiver of all?

Romney is just as principled as a Bachmann, Santorum, Perry or Paul.

Romney is reliable and a consistent Conservative. What is different is that Romney is not an absolutist, and doesn't pretend to be one.

Paul from SA| 12.21.11 @ 3:33PM

Romney, a reliable and consistent conservative?

What have you been smoking? Are you nuts? Have you been listening to Ann Coutler, Fox News, and not checking for the truth?

Romney is a big-gov't, anti-conservative, liberal. He spoke out against Ronald Reagan -- in public. He described himself as "progressive" -- in public. He was against everything conservative yesterday. Today he switched. Tomorrow, he'll switch again. Deep inside, he is a liberal.

James| 12.21.11 @ 6:39PM

Name the policies or the acts as Govenor of MA that make him "big government" "anti-conservtive" or "liberal."

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 3:59PM

Read about this in
My Boyfriend is a Mormon Vampire
found on amazon.

Paul from SA| 12.21.11 @ 4:09PM

Why so much secrecy about Mormonism? What are they hiding?

James| 12.21.11 @ 6:40PM

Nothing is secret about Mormonism - it's all on the internet.

God says he has mysteries - is he hiding something?

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 7:19PM

"Nothing is secret about Mormonism - it's all on the internet."

Including the Polygamy (Adultery) as gospel?

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:35PM

Yoo-hoo, Jamsey???

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 12:04PM

Yoo-Hoo, Margie?

Still waiting for those answers to my questions.

Do you believe that infants can sin?
Did Paul mess up when he wrote, in the same chapter, that "many have sinned"?
Did the Holy Spirit inspire the Old Testament authors to write that Enoch and Elijah did not die, and then inspire Paul to write that "ALL [pantes] have died"? If He meant ALL, as in everyone who ever lived?

Until you can answer these questions, your argument, or, rather, your flawed interpretation, doesn't have a leg to stand on.
God Bless!

Tony in Central PA| 12.21.11 @ 6:41PM

Shawn, the thing that makes me nervous about Mitt is that what he is now saying about his conservative beliefs doesn't line up with his record. Now if Mitt had some sort of epiphany and saw the futility and bankruptcy of progressivism that might be a different thing, but I don't hear him saying that. To me, he still looks like the guy who's been running for President for the better part of ten years and he's just casting around for the right formula to get elected.

Shawn| 12.21.11 @ 7:28PM

Tony,

I don't think there is anything to worry about. If anything can be said about Romney is that he played liberals in MA. However, ROmney is a conservative and has always acted/governed like a conservative.

Paul from SA| 12.21.11 @ 3:29PM

I disagree with the article. Romney is a progressive. (His own words!)

The more Romney talks about his religion, the more he loses.

I thought there was a new Republican rule (enacted just to protect Romney) that a candidate's religious views are not to be discussed.

A lot of people I know won't vote for a Mormon. Obama and the Democrats will destroy Romney over his faith to Mormonism.

Howard Kurtz of CNN's Reliable Source showed a video of Romney in 2002 describing himself as "progressive." What has happened to the Republican party? The GOP is about to nominate a self-described progressive as its candidate. This will ensure a conservative third-party.

Shawn| 12.21.11 @ 7:29PM

Progressive in the sense of "forward thinking." Romney played liberals very well and governed like a conservative.

There will be no third-party candidate. If so, Barak Obama will win.

Paul from SA| 12.21.11 @ 3:38PM

I'm beginning to understand. The liberals changed the definition of the word, "conservative."

Romney has an article out today claiming that a gov't health insurance mandate is "conservative."

That explains it. He has his own definition. For Romney, conservative means less individual freedom and big-gov't control.

James| 12.21.11 @ 7:26PM

Paul:

Romney didn't make up the State "mandate" is was introduced many times by conservatives in the 80s, and 90s. The "Heritage Foundation" called ROmney's Healthcare mandate, "conservative."

Romneycare was overblown by libertarian Christians.

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 3:57PM

A very informative look at Mormonism and Politics by a Notre Dame Professor Campbell. Oh, oh, Mormonism and Notre Dame--that out to really torch Margie off.
http://www.weeklystandard.com/.....14582.html

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 4:36PM

Read THE informative book on God~ the Bible.
No one has any need to go elsewhere.

Repent, and believe the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, lest you perish, Peppermint Tea!

Elaine Lines | 12.21.11 @ 5:56PM

I remember studying the founders of the mormon 'faith'. Did u know that the 2 drunken men that corrupted the Christian Bible, did so behind an old blanket in the US. N.W.? How can anyone in the Christian religion take Romney seriously because he's part of this travesty of the Christian religion. Read the Book of Revelation and learn what happens to The Whore of Babylon, otherwise known as the False Church. Mormonism is a part of this Whore of Babylon. And Christians want one as president of the United States? We'd almost be better off with idiot obama for 4 more years. Yes, I said, almost.

Mick Lee| 12.21.11 @ 6:16PM

I see James has ignored or rejected my advice. Fair enough. If he wants to defend Mormonism that is his right. But notice he is doing Romney no favors. His comments frequently are inflammatory and insulting. Maybe he feels it his right to do so in the face of the inflammatory and insulting remarks the rest of the Church has made over the years. Again, his perfect right. But James is winning no one to Romney's side for the Republican nomination. If anything, his hostility is chasing them away.
I plan to vote for Romney in the primary in 2012. I am an orthodox Lutheran who ignores the theological conflict between Mormonism and Lutheranism in this political race--or any race. I would no more vote against a Mormon for his religion than I would a Catholic for his--and theological dissuasions between Lutherans and Catholics are no piece of cake either. But as Conservatives we understand each other. To paraphrase Martin Luther, I'd rather have a wise Catholic (Baptist, Anglican, Lutheran...Mormon, etc) to rule over our nation than a foolish Lutheran (Catholic, Baptist. Anglican...Mormon, etc.).
Romney in 2012!

James| 12.21.11 @ 7:33PM

Amen! Romney will do a magnificent job as President!

Proud Mormon| 12.21.11 @ 6:48PM

It's a great day to be a Mormon. Mitt is going to win Iowa, NH and all other states that matter vanquishing the Tea Party and evangelicals. Next up the Democrats and the White House. President Willard Milton Romney that has a beautiful sound to it.

MidwestMountainMan| 1.1.12 @ 3:59AM

@ Proud Mormon: I'm a Mormon, and you don't sound like a Mormon to me. First off, we're counseled on Sundays not to be "Proud." Second, Mormons don't gloat or talk trash or say divisive things like that. No one's going to "vanquish the Tea Party and evangelicals." I'm supporting Mitt, but I identify with the Tea Party, and I feel very close to evangelicals. Attack them, and you attack me. And his middle name is Mitt, not Milton.

Mike McLamara| 12.21.11 @ 7:18PM

Islam is the cult.

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 10:27PM

There are many.

POST American| 12.21.11 @ 9:25PM

--------------------BOTTOM LINE----------------------

"John Calvin was America's REAL founding
father."
-George Bancroft
America's FIRST Historian
1830

"Religion is the KEY to history.
Among the Christians, ONLY the
Calvinists possessed the faculty
for self-government. And ONLY
the Calvinists would fight."
-LORD Acton

AS George Washington himself, a Mason,
finally repented and realized------

What MOST good people within Mormonism
are completelty unaware of is the synthetic
nature of Mormonism itself.

IN FACT, its was, and we suppose,
still is, as good as a front for
scuzzy old 'FREE---MAY--SIN--Re' and,
of course, Social Darwinist EUGENICS.

Mormonism had its beginings in western
New York state in the early 1800's, the
very same place, and time, that all of those
FAKE Christianoid EUGENICS and socialism
utopia communities were being set up, and funded
by banksters across the Atlentic.

The Joseph Smith murder remains
the scandal it was.

The same area also the very stomping ground of Charles Finney
--33rd degree Freemason, and the
very mastermind behind American
'feel good' Arminianism and tent shows.

The aftermath? --New York state became
known as the 'burnt over district' because
of its degraded, dissolute and desolated
spiritual character.

Every CON-artist and operator,
from P T Barnum, to Glen Beck and
Billy Graham, worship at Finney's altar.

ALSO, important to remember,
the snake oil salesmen Rockefellers
hail out of X---actly the same
region and time.

"Remember, there's been a war on; a
very quiet, very determined, very well funded
and carefully managed war on.
---A centuries old war. A war AGAINST
genuine Christianity."

And with its franchise slums, its media witches,
its pervasive pornography, its sports 'culture',
its traitorous, subversive, ultra-rich, TAX FREE
foundations pumping the tail end of cultural
degradation and EUGENICS ---isn't all of America
now 'the burnt over district'.

DO your homework. Get the background.
This stuff is NEVER talked about.

Religion genuine and 'counter'--FIT
REALLY is the KEY to history.

-------------------------REALLY--------------------------

SafeLibraries | 12.21.11 @ 10:31PM

A few days ago, former New Jersey Governor Richard Codey mocked how a Romney/Rudy ticket would get the divorced/polygamist vote. On WOR 710AM NY. https://twitter.com/safelibraries/status/149148458970923008 Have there been any consequences of such religious discrimination?

O Tamandua| 12.21.11 @ 11:02PM

A question for those who believe Mormonism is another denomination within the Christian faith:

How many of you can find a cross at your nearest LDS church? On the steeple? On the outside wall? On the inside? I've never had any problem finding one in any of the evangelical Christian churches I've attended.

Have you ever asked one of your LDS friends about the significance of the cross, and Christ's substitutionary atonement on it?

(And I'm not trying to put down Mormons themselves - my son went to high school with several close LDS friends who he (and I) very much appreciated.)

O Tamandua| 12.21.11 @ 11:12PM

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to them that are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God." I Corinthian 1:18

James| 12.22.11 @ 11:26AM

O Tamandua:

Mormons see the Christian faith and the Bible as separate concepts. The "Christian faith" is somewhat of a vague and general concept that comprises many different interpretations of the Bible and many different denominations.

It is clear to Mormons that God doesn't wish or accept varying interpretations of the Bible. So, in this sense the "Christian faith" is troubled.

It is interesting to Mormons that, for the most part, non-Catholic Protestant denominations (including all Evangelical sects) while criticizing the Catholic Church as "papist" or "corrupt" claim to be a part of the grand historic Christian faith/tradition. To Mormons, this is VERY strange.

In fact, Mormons do not believe or claim that Mormonism is another sect of the historic Christian tradition. Instead, we claim that Mormonism is a restoration of the original New Testament Church of Apostles and Prophets.

Within the walls of Mormon Churches you won't find pictures or representations of the cross. But, you will see instead, pictures of Jesus Christ, and depictions of the acts of his life including, his birth, his young life, his miracles, his prayer and agony in the garden of Gethsemane, his crucifixion, his resurrection and his ascension.

The main event every week at Mormon Churches is the Eucharist or "Sacrament" as it is called in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This involves hymns, a period of contemplation of the Savior's life and sacrifice and two separate prayers. The emblems of the sacrament are bread and water which represent the body and blood and life of Christ.

The prayers and the partaking of the sacrament is the act of renewal of the Baptismal Covenant. This covenant is to always remember Christ, be willing to take upon his name, and do one's best to keep his commandments (faith, hope, charity, obedience, and worship of God.)

Every week, Mormons spend time in this ritual as an act of humility, reverence, and worship of Christ's suffering, atonement, resurrection, and glory.

So, in answer to your question, O Tam, yes, LDS Christians know a lot about the significance of the cross and Christ's substitutiary atonement, his resurrection, and ascension and his promise to return again in glory.

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 11:39AM

James,

Did Mitt Romney spend any time as a missionary?
Just curious.

James| 12.22.11 @ 11:51AM

Yes. I believe he spent 2.5 years in France and didn't convert any new converts to Mormonism, but helped fellow missionaries and members maintain their faith.

Nick, are you a Catholic or Protestant Christian?

Nick| 12.22.11 @ 12:02PM

James,

Thank you for your response. In everything that I have seen or read about Mr. Romney, I never heard if he did any missionary work.

I am a proud Roman Catholic, by the way. I'm the same Nick who, throughout this thread, has been defending my faith to Margie.
Merry Christmas and God Bless!

James| 12.22.11 @ 12:33PM

Nick,

Merry Christmas to you too! I hope Margie can bury the axe for one day of the year. (haha).

I don't believe that Christ is pleased when we allow contention to get the best of us that spoils the spirit of charity and love.

Mormonism teaches that at the resurrection, it won't be just Mormons who remain to greet Christ, but all those who have genuine faith in Jesus Christ will stand to meet him.

I look forward to standing shoulder-to-shoulder with faithful followers of Christ at that day, be they Catholics, Lutherans, Baptists, or Seventh-Day Adventists.

In the meantime, we stand with other religious Conservatives to uphold the Constitution and to fight against secular moral relativism that threatens the family and eternal family values.

Romney isn't the perfect candidate (even for me, a Mormon) but I believe he has the right character, values, skills, and strength to fight Obama and win the presidency to restore America's standard to the nations.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:59PM

"I don't believe that Christ is pleased when we allow contention to get the best of us that spoils the spirit of charity and love."

Christ is pleased when His children defend the WORD of GOD.

I take my stand with those who proclaim the TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ.

I hope you both repent and believe the true Gospel of God, as written in the Bible.

Jesus is LORD, not MAN!!!

James| 12.22.11 @ 8:40PM

Margie:

I can tell you want to do right according to the Bible and by Jesus Christ. You have a lot of zeal for your belief.

The doctrinal differences between Catholics and Protestants aren't new. The arguments have caused wars and contentions for over 400 years. Is this what the Savior wanted?

Did he want Catholics and Protestants "warring" amongst each other - either at one extreme or another - either with swords or words?

No.

But both sides had the Bible and have had the Bible for the last 400 years. They have both read it and find different interpretations in it. So, there isn't a deficiency for reading the Bible but understanding the Bible.

This is precisely the quandary in which Joseph Smith found himself - which Bible interpretation is the right one?

Catholics and Protestants are no closer to unity today than they have been for 400 years.

What is needed is ANOTHER source to check interpretation. Another set of records from which we can test interpretation or receive confirmation of a particular doctrine.

For this reason God preserved the Book of Mormon (Mormon being an actual person who was a record keeper and compiler), which is a collection of God's teachings with which we can compare.

If the Book of Mormon is not needed, then a simple reading of the Bible should unify ALL Christian sects. But, all Christian sects are not unified by their reading of the Bible, and therefore the necessity of the Book of Mormon.

The disunity and the myriads of different interpretations have disproved the 400 year old concept and doctrine of sola scriptura - it has completely failed.

Defending the word of God does not require anyone to ridicule another's belief to declare judgments.

Evangelical Christianity is in serious error for claiming that Catholics are going to hell or for claiming anyone else is going to hell for trying to read the Bible and follow it's teachings.

It is an absolute absurdity for Evangelical pastors to claim that "they" alone possess the "power" to declare who is saved and who is not saved in the Kingdom of God.

This practice has made Evangelical Christians pompous, arrogant, and wrong.

Do yourself a favor Margie and spend your time learning all of the behavior that the Savior would have you do and do nothing more to stir up contention among those who believe in and read the Bible and try to do its teachings.

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 9:41PM

"Defending the word of God does not require anyone to ridicule another's belief to declare judgments."

Au contraire, cultist!

REPENT AND BELIEVE THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST!

OR YOU WILL PERISH, FOOL!

Matthew| 12.23.11 @ 10:52AM

Matthew 5:22

"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, You fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:37PM

He's not a brother, he's a lying, putrid cultist.

Hypocrite!

I don't see you preaching the Gospel to him.. punk.

Matthew| 12.26.11 @ 11:15PM

You do not have any fruits of the spirit. You just make empty judgments based on prejudices and hate.

"And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

Arthur Sido | 12.30.11 @ 11:27AM

When your "source" springs from the imagination of Joseph Smith in the 1800's, it is no more helpful to understanding the Bible than the Koran or a Polish cookbook. All Protestants and Catholics alike understand that God is unique (unlike polytheistic mormonism) and that Jesus Christ is God and not a created being (again unlike mormonism). Furthermore all Christians understand that we are not saved by our own works or our own righteousness. Those are the crucial doctrines of the Gospel. What mormonism teaches is "another gospel" that is no gospel at all, a gospel that exalts man to godhood and reduced God to a mere creature, a gospel that teaches a synergistic cooperation between God and man for salvation.

There certainly is disnuity among believers and that is grevious to me and I am sure to Christ but the solution to disunity is not a false gospel. The truth will set you free but mormonism merely traps people in religion. All of the smiley self-righteous piety in the world won't save you. Only Christ. You don't need to go to a "temple" to learn a secret handshake to enter into eternal life, you just need faith in Christ and His atoning work.

POST American| 12.22.11 @ 10:01PM

"The ILLUMINATI were kicked out
of the US in 1800 ---but they snuck
back in via the China opium money
funded Yale secret societies--"

AS we are reeling from the after affects of
an entire century of 'counter'-fit and
deadly HIS-story in the clutches of
psychopathic, occult, fractional reserve
USURY ---and EUGENICS, time to keep
the record very, very clear regarding the
nature of Chrisitanity --genuine Christianity
--and the infiltrations of occult MAY-SIN-Re
and the 'benny violent' inroads of Christ
neutralizing '--Eck--YOU---MEN---ICK --all--ism'.

Those awake well realize --eternity gets longer
and more real ---by the minute.

---------------HUAC/ Nuremberg 2012----------------

Richard Baker| 12.23.11 @ 1:02AM

Stressing his "Mormon values" will not settle the unease that Americans have for Mormonism. While the actions of many against the LDS church over the history of the country have been unreasonable and murderous, the unsettling view of this church isn't going to change and still remains. Have no problem about how they worship God but many do, unfortunately.

Hal9000| 12.29.11 @ 5:14PM

It's also the same problem that plenty of Americans have for plenty of beliefs that might have some similar values, like Islam, or Judaism, either way, that's probably also the reason why religion will ultimately self-destruct, and why it's all going to decline, they care for who believes so purely more than who exemplifies what is good.

dave| 12.23.11 @ 5:24PM

margie i am a mormon and i believe in christ. i pray twice daily to god in jesus name. so how exactly does that make me non christian. i believe the bible to be the word of god so long as it is translated corectly. i also believe the book of mormon to be the word of god. i believe he (god) has revealed many wonderful things and will yet reveal many more wonderful things. i believe in prophets and apostles, the same as christs ancient church had. i am a christien, i believe christ is the son of god. i believe that christ will come again to reign personaly upon the earth. i believe all rightous people will be saved. the bible clearly teaches there are more than one level of exaltation. i do not beilieve in the concept of either heaven or hell, only two choices. in my fathers house are many mansions. by the way you remind me of carries mother in the stephen king book and movei.

Margie| 12.23.11 @ 10:44PM

"margie i am a mormon and i believe in christ."

That explains your responses to my posts.

The answer to your question is what God tells all of us: You must repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Mk. 1:15.

NO ONE can believe a different gospel and be saved.

ot the cult of Mary and the Popes.

Not the cult of Mormon.

Not the cult of Buddhism.

OR ANY OTHER FALSE RELIGION.

Jesus didn't suffer and die for our sins so that we could believe how WE want to believe!

It has to be IN Him and HIS way, according to the Bible.

He says if we believe another gospel, we are accursed. Gal. 1:18.

That is why He commands Christians to PREACH His Gospel~ so that others could hear it and be saved.

I am here to tell you that Mormonism is NOT the Gospel of Christ and you need to turn from it and believe ONLY the Gospel as written in the Bible concerning Jesus. God's Own Words are the Words you need to be trusting in.

"Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." Jn. 14:6.

Joseph Smith was a LIAR.
Jesus Christ is LORD.
Repent before you die, or you will burn.. HIS WORDS NOT MINE.

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 12:14PM

Margie,

"That is why He commands Christians to PREACH His Gospel~ so that others could hear it and be saved."

It is too bad that you preach an incomplete Gospel. A very incomplete Gospel.

"I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called: With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit: as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all." Ephesians 4:1-6

Nick| 12.24.11 @ 12:19PM

p.s. In addition to those other questions of mine, which you are incapable of answering, I'm also still waiting for you to show me where in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is says that Our Lady is "equal" to Christ or that she "forgives sins"?

Caroline| 12.24.11 @ 7:10PM

I'm wondering today if Mitt's a crook.

The Washington Post by Anita KumarDecember 20, 2011
http://www.washingtonpost.com/...
Former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney became the first Republican presidential candidate Tuesday to submit signatures for Virginia’s primary election ballot.

Lt. Gov. Bill Bolling (R), who heads up Romney’s Virginia campaign, and a handful of volunteers delivered 16,026 signatures to the state Wednesday afternoon to get Romney’s name on the March 6, 2012 ballot.

“It is clear that Mitt Romney is the strongest Republican candidate in a general election campaign,’’ Bolling told reporters as he walked to the State Board of Elections. “I happen to think he’s the only Republican candidate who has a chance of defeating President Obama.”

Candidates have until Dec. 22 to collect 10,000 signatures from across the state and another 400 from each congressional district.

Bolling said he expects some GOP candidates to miss the deadline for signatures in Virginia, whose certification process he called the toughest in the nation.

Romney’s campaign sent staff to Virginia to help volunteers collect the thousands of signatures.

Former House speaker Newt Gingrich will appear at a rally in Northern Virginia on Wednesday as he tries to get the necessary signatures for the state ballot.

Bolling, in response to a question from a reporter, said he thinks a victory by Romney would help his chances in 2013 when he faces Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli (R) in the race for governor.

“I don’t think there’s any question that having a Republican president would help improve our chances in 2013 in Virginia, and having a Republican president who is a friend would help improve my chances in 2013.”

President Obama became the first presidential candidate to submit his signatures Dec. 2.

The Democratic Party of Virginia is expected to begin certifying those signatures Thursday afternoon, and finish the task by 5 p.m. Friday.

Follow me on Twitter: anitakumar01

coltakashi| 12.26.11 @ 1:33PM

Thank you for a refreshing petspective. Since Romney is being labeled as the Mormin candidate by Time, Newsweek, and even Fox News, he had best take advantage if it by pointing out how his values in marriage and family, on abortion and service to othrs, have been shaped by his core beliefs. I conitinue to be amazed because some Evangelucals attack Mitt for two reasons, his Mormonism and what they call his unclear commitment to conservative values. It is precisely his Mormonism that most assures Romney's conservative social values.

I think he should go farther and speak of how hus religion teacges him to honor the Constitution and our freedoms under the Bill of Rights as sacred, just as the Declaration of Independence asserts that God ordained equality for all regardless of religion or race.

Hal9000| 12.29.11 @ 4:47PM

Again, that's sort of Romney's problem, he lives his life in business mode, he's not a bad person personally, but he is terrible at playing up to the demagoguery that goes on in politics. It's not his game.

MidwestMountainMan| 1.1.12 @ 4:01AM

@ Proud Mormon: I'm a Mormon, and you don't sound like a Mormon to me. First off, we're counseled on Sundays not to be "Proud." Second, Mormons don't gloat or talk trash or say divisive things like that. No one's going to "vanquish the Tea Party and evangelicals." I'm supporting Mitt, but I identify with the Tea Party, and I feel very close to evangelicals. Attack them, and you attack me. And his middle name is Mitt, not Milton.

MidwestMountainMan| 1.1.12 @ 4:12AM

Author Daniel Allott, you report that Mitt "compiled a mixed record on abortion as governor," and as the only pro-choice example, you offer this: "Romneycare, Massachusetts' health care insurance reform law passed in 2006, allows women to obtain elective abortions for a $50 co-pay." Please tell us how that policy allowing elective abortions became law. Was it something Mitt advocated? If you do, readers will see that Mitt did NOT have a "mixed record on abortion as governor." He was solidly pro-life.

Stephen Boone | 1.10.12 @ 1:40AM

Reagan was divorced and hardly ever went to church. OK?? Nonetheless "conservatives" practically worship the man. Only G_d knows why. He is to this day the only person from EITHER party to openly propose and actually provide total amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. So there. na na na na na. OK? Why? Because he stopped running the "it's our canal, we stole the land and built it and we're going to keep it (until we give it back because we can just grab it when we need it again) campaign and instead ran a campaign similar to the one Obama stole from "Bob the Builder" . Reagans was some meaningless feel good phrase like Morning in America as I recall. THAT'S what wins campaigns in the USA. Want to see a LOSER?? Look at Rick Perry's "send me to Washington and I will fight with a congress of my own party and rewrite the Constitution" campaign. Now THAT'S DUMB with a capital UMB. People do NOT want the entire constitution rewritten to look like the candidates' home state. Really, they don't. If, G_d forbid, Obama is re-elected then Perry MIGHT wise up and run a campaign based on BarBQ and Football, two things that Texas does better than anybody. The country will be gone by then, but hey! who's counting, right??

Stephen Boone | 1.10.12 @ 1:40AM

Reagan was divorced and hardly ever went to church. OK?? Nonetheless "conservatives" practically worship the man. Only G_d knows why. He is to this day the only person from EITHER party to openly propose and actually provide total amnesty for millions of illegal aliens. So there. na na na na na. OK? Why? Because he stopped running the "it's our canal, we stole the land and built it and we're going to keep it (until we give it back because we can just grab it when we need it again) campaign and instead ran a campaign similar to the one Obama stole from "Bob the Builder" . Reagans was some meaningless feel good phrase like Morning in America as I recall. THAT'S what wins campaigns in the USA. Want to see a LOSER?? Look at Rick Perry's "send me to Washington and I will fight with a congress of my own party and rewrite the Constitution" campaign. Now THAT'S DUMB with a capital UMB. People do NOT want the entire constitution rewritten to look like the candidates' home state. Really, they don't. If, G_d forbid, Obama is re-elected then Perry MIGHT wise up and run a campaign based on BarBQ and Football, two things that Texas does better than anybody. The country will be gone by then, but hey! who's counting, right??

The American Spectator

Campaign Crawlers

Romney’s Mormon Advantage

About the Author

Letter to the Editor View all comments (434) | Leave a comment Leave a comment

Jack in Wi.| 12.21.11 @ 7:13AM

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 10:37AM

Doorgunner| 12.21.11 @ 12:04PM

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 1:57PM

Dan Kendrick| 12.21.11 @ 8:20PM

Mark | 12.22.11 @ 9:48AM

Jack in Wi.| 12.21.11 @ 6:00PM

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 2:53AM

Teaghan| 12.21.11 @ 12:45PM

Al Adab| 12.21.11 @ 2:01PM

Clint| 12.21.11 @ 2:09PM

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 3:56PM

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:28PM

Mike McLamara| 12.21.11 @ 7:21PM

DTOM| 12.21.11 @ 10:51AM

Jack in Wi.| 12.21.11 @ 5:47PM

Guy Briggs| 1.2.12 @ 12:45PM

KyMouse| 12.21.11 @ 9:56PM

MikeG| 12.21.11 @ 10:22PM

KyMouse| 12.22.11 @ 8:41AM

MikeG| 12.22.11 @ 11:52AM

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 2:28PM

creeper| 12.22.11 @ 3:46PM

dave| 12.23.11 @ 2:37PM

Arthur Sido | 12.30.11 @ 11:12AM

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:03AM

rhoetus| 12.22.11 @ 8:43AM

Lyneuss Fields | 12.24.11 @ 12:08PM

martin j smith| 12.21.11 @ 7:53AM

richard ryan| 12.21.11 @ 8:10AM

DTOM| 12.21.11 @ 11:09AM

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:11AM

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 1:27PM

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:06AM

richard ryan| 12.21.11 @ 2:47PM

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 5:34PM

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:08AM

Hal9000| 12.29.11 @ 5:09PM

mames| 12.21.11 @ 12:35PM

Shawn | 12.21.11 @ 12:41PM

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:14PM

The Entire AmeSpec Bloggers| 12.21.11 @ 1:51PM

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:03PM

Kingofthenet| 12.21.11 @ 2:22PM

GOD| 12.21.11 @ 10:00PM

Lord of the Flies| 12.21.11 @ 10:08PM

Emperor Palpatine| 12.21.11 @ 10:21PM

Satan| 12.21.11 @ 10:26PM

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:14AM

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 2:50PM

Todd S| 12.21.11 @ 8:39PM

The Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 10:27PM

Buck Ofama| 12.22.11 @ 12:17PM

Margie| 12.22.11 @ 1:16PM

Teaghan| 12.21.11 @ 12:47PM

My Boyfriend is ...| 12.21.11 @ 4:00PM

Ryan| 12.21.11 @ 8:21AM

The Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 10:31PM

Ryan| 12.22.11 @ 1:01PM

Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 8:45AM

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:12AM

mames| 12.21.11 @ 12:42PM

Teaghan| 12.21.11 @ 12:50PM

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:18PM

Vince Baiamonte| 1.1.12 @ 3:23AM

Bruce| 12.21.11 @ 8:45AM

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 9:28AM

James| 12.21.11 @ 11:15AM

rhoetus| 12.22.11 @ 8:48AM

Jeff Barnett| 12.21.11 @ 8:49AM

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 9:33AM

Vern Crisler | 12.21.11 @ 10:00AM

Peppermint Tea| 12.21.11 @ 10:15AM

Margie| 12.21.11 @ 1:23PM

My Boyfriend is ...| 12.21.11 @ 4:02PM