The American Spectator : A 'Genocidal' Thanksgiving

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A 'Genocidal' Thanksgiving

By Mark Tooley on 11.28.11 @ 6:08AM

Once again, the Religious Left found itself in no mood to celebrate our national day of gratitude.

The academic and Religious Left believe that Western Civilization, especially America, is uniquely contaminating to an otherwise pristine world. So celebrations of the European settlement of the Western Hemisphere are always problematic. Thanksgiving is no exception.

Just in time for the holiday was an anti-Thanksgiving column in Jim Wallis' Sojourners. "I've been checking my heart for years why I can't just go with the flow and to see the 'redemptive' aspect of present day Thanksgiving," declared the Rev. Eugene Cho, pastor of a Seattle church.

America's Thanksgiving, of course, traces to the English Separatists known as Pilgrims who quit the Church of England, and England, to create their own promised land in the American wilderness. Only about half of the original 100 settlers had survived their first winter in what became Massachusetts. In the fall of 1621 they reputedly celebrated a harvest festival that included about a hundred members of the local Indian tribe, which had been very helpful to their survival.

"Most are in agreement that the Indians were invited simply because the Pilgrims knew that they would have died had it not been for the help of the local Indians," Rev. Cho unsentimentally recalled. "Those that we would now categorize as 'illegal aliens,'" i.e. the Pilgrims, "not only came without invitation but they came to take over," the clergyman grimly alleged. "In fact, beyond the first joint 'Thanksgiving,' there were no further meals of mutual peace, dependence, and friendship." In Cho's telling, Thanksgiving was just a last sort of last meal for the Indians who would later succumb to an ongoing "genocide" by Europeans of America's native peoples.

Thanksgiving is darkly the "celebration" of the "colonists'" eventual "oppression" of their "heathen captives," Cho charges. "The early arrivals of European invasion resulted in the deaths of 10 to 30 million native Indians." These figures, an unconfirmable estimate of the number of native peoples who died because of European settlement, covers several centuries, from Christopher Columbus' 1492 arrival up through, presumably, the late 19th century. The vast majority were victims of diseases brought by Europeans for which the native peoples had no immunity. In the several years prior to the Pilgrims' arrival at Cape Cod, the local tribe had lost perhaps 90 percent of its people because of possible transmission of bubonic plague by European fishermen.

Cho bemoans the European settlement of America as "one of the worst human injustices" ever that entailed the "suppression, oppression, and near annihilation of the Native Indians," i.e. "genocide." The pastor urges Thanksgiving's "repeal" because "no matter how we want to re-tell or re-write that story, we are marking an event of injustice." In eliminating this day of infamy, Cho wants the "whole country to express sorrow for such a grave injustice to the Native Indians and create events and various forms of curriculum in parallel" that would include "gratitude and celebration of the story and legacy of the native Indian people." He also wants "reparation for every single descendant of Native Indians" that, "just for starters," would "guarantee 100% funding to college for any descendants of Native Indians."

We can only speculate what may come after that "just for starters." But Cho concludes that any celebration of Thanksgiving is the "pinnacle of historical revisionism." It's a little odd that the first Thanksgiving, a moment of multicultural comity, however fleeting, between Pilgrims and native people, should be so defamed. Wouldn't a true multi-culturalist herald this early Thanksgiving as a model rather than a charade?

The English Separatists and others who arrived on the Mayflower in 1620 did not arrive with any secret master plan to liquidate the Indians and conquer a continent. They were a tiny band fleeing persecution by their nation's state church. Many of them had initially fled to relatively religiously tolerant Holland, though agents of the English king had tormented them even there. They eventually decided they could only worship and live as they saw fit in a distant, barren wilderness, far from king and state church. Their expedition was funded by exploitative entrepreneurs. And various mishaps meant their arrival in America would be at the near onset of winter, with no initial shelter, and minimal stores, even assuming they survived a two-month journey across the stormy, cold Atlantic. Two died on the journey, half would die before spring.

How to contort such a benign little group into the first wave of a genocidal invasion? Their intent was considerably different from the Spanish conquistadors who, seeking gold and glory, had bloodily subdued native civilizations to the south a century before. Native peoples in what later became the United States would suffer many terrible and tragic injustices across several centuries. But genocide? This modern term describes the deliberate and systematic extermination of a people such as Hitler's mass murder of the Jews, Stalin's starving of the kulaks, or Pol Pot's mass liquidation of all perceived foes.

By Rev. Cho's wide definition, the native tribes of North America, of which there were thousands, had been committing "genocide" against each other for millennia, conquering, exterminating, despoiling and absorbing each other in an unceasing miasma of perpetual conflict. When my Scots-Irish ancestors arrived in Virginia's Shenandoah Valley in the early 1700s, it was unpopulated, the original natives having been displaced or exterminated by northern tribes who only visited the valley as their hunting ground. My ancestors were attacked by raiding warriors in Southwest Virginia during the French and Indian War, the wives taken captive to Ohio, one baby smashed to death, another spared because of her smile. These Presbyterian women captives were marched to Ohio, singing the 137th Psalm, which the Hebrews had sung during their Babylonian captivity. They were later rescued by a raiding party from Virginia. Were these Scots-Irish families who had fled mistreatment by the English to settle on wild, empty land already depopulated by distant, "genocidal" native people themselves practicing "genocide" simply by living where they were?

In the previous century, there were two attempts at genocide in Virginia under the modern definition of deliberate and systematic extermination. Pocahontas' father, who had formed the Powhatan Confederacy in the 16th century by his own conquests and perhaps genocide of rival tribes, had initially tolerated the Jamestown colony because it was on worthless swampland. His surviving brother, Opechancanough, was less indulgent and, after years of relative peace, orchestrated mass attacks in 1622 on the English settlements of Virginia, aiming to kill every man, woman and child. Ostensibly friendly tribesmen arrived on a Friday morning at farms and villages only to slaughter their welcoming hosts. A warning the night before from an Indian boy living with an English family outside Jamestown prevented consummation of the genocide. But about 25 percent of the colony was slaughtered in a few hours. Amazingly, Opechancanough attempted another mass slaughter 22 years later, with similar grizzly but unsuccessful results.

The typical lifespan of these early colonists was only a few years, or less, after arrival, more from starvation and sickness than from conflict. Were they victims of a "genocide"? Remarkably, they were replaced by many times their numbers, who knew the grim odds, but still preferred their remote chance in the New World to continued squalor and oppression in the old. Their sins were numerous. But their courage and perseverance founded a great civilization that, unlike the racially homogenous tribal societies that once sparsely dotted the continent, was multicultural and welcoming to millions of immigrants seeking opportunity and freedom.

Rev. Cho identifies himself as a second generation Korean-American who risks being seen as "angry Asian man." Is he the beneficiary of "genocide"? History for all nations and peoples is the chronicle of human depravity. But the Pilgrims, with many Americans still today, believed that God is redeeming the world, with sinful people as His instruments. The first Thanksgiving of Pilgrims and Indians offered a small glimmer of that divine redemption, as did many events that followed, for which we all can be grateful.

About the Author

Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Taking Back the United Methodist Church.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (91) | Leave a comment

Dick Nome| 11.28.11 @ 6:15AM

Welcome back. I was a bit dismayed to find no Commentary on Thanksgiving Day nor Friday either. A bit duplicitous here. Yes, the left ignores Thanksgiving, to their shame, but you guys blew it as you did too. Next year celebrate it with at least a message for the blogophere.

Timothy L. Pennell| 11.28.11 @ 9:16AM

My Comment was REMOVED?
Why would anyone "Give the Gift of The American Spectator - for only $19, when they practice CENSORSHIP?
Who's this guy? Tooley. And, he's a Methodist?
Obviously, Homosexuals have an affront, to Free Speech.

Doorgunner| 11.28.11 @ 1:26PM

It's their forum, crybaby.

It's not "censorship" 'til they take your soapbox. As this one is The Spectator's, they get to say who stands on it.

Now take yout little school girl "ALL CAPS" and run along.

Timothy L. Pennell| 11.28.11 @ 4:51PM

Then you would think that a DUMB*SS, like yourself, would be Banned For Life.
Idiot.
Oh, and GFYourself.

Quartermaster| 11.28.11 @ 7:31PM

And it's stuff like that gets your posts removed. Buck up and grow up. You and other trolls are living on borrowed time as you keep pushing the limit.

Doorgunner| 11.28.11 @ 8:41PM

Witty retort, Tinfoil Timmy.

Alan Brooks| 11.28.11 @ 8:34PM

America IS murderous, merely less murderous than other nations.
If you'd stick to America having the best agriculture, good research facilities, etc., fine. But then you have to smarm us with "my country 'tis of thee..."

America can sell itself on its own real merits, not Betsy Ross and apple pie.

DaveS| 11.28.11 @ 7:10AM

No wheel, no written language. No deeds. No title. Sold Manhattan when they didn't own it (seller was an LI tribe.) But my favorite, that my wife dislikes: the Atlantic Ocean is a two-way 'street.'

Too much 'go back to the womb' sentiment. Cho, just go.

KyMouse| 11.28.11 @ 9:29AM

Cho, and everyone who agrees with his point of view, should state in their wills that any real estate they own must be given to the nearest tribe. If your kids or grandkids are being taught in politically correct school, they will understand and approve of the loss of their inheritance.

But why wait until death? Give your house, land etc. to the nearest tribe right now, and pay rent to a tribal landlord for an apartment somewhere.

KyMouse| 11.28.11 @ 9:45AM

Another thought -- why is it that the descendants of pioneers from Britain and other northern European countries are encouraged to be ashamed of their ancestors, but descendants of Spanish conquistadors (i.e. Hispanic Americans) are not?

I've had two Indian friends over the years ---a Chippewa-Cree and a Cherokee, both gals, and although they are proud of their heritage, they admitted to me that they would never want to the return to the days of chewing deer skins to make clothing. They LIKED reading Shakespeare, listening to Mozart, and traveling to distant lands -- among many other things.

I wonder if there is any nation on Earth that has not been invaded and/or colonized by others. The dominant culture wins, and it (through the choices of the people) decides what parts of the conquered culture should remain.

For example, very few of us want to live the way the Indians did, but we still find their art attractive and like their stories about animals and nature. What works and what enriches life is what people choose.

One of my favorite places, the Isle of Man, was invaded and colonized by the Vikings. The natives didn't want them to show up, but the Vikings gave the island that system of land management and government that has helped it for a thousand years and counting.

Just about every country gets invaded -- that's the way of the world. Some bad things come from it, and some good. What works, and what enriches life, is what will last.

emo| 11.28.11 @ 7:18PM

""why is it that the descendants of pioneers from Britain and other northern European countries are encouraged to be ashamed of their ancestors, but descendants of Spanish conquistadors (i.e. Hispanic Americans) are not?"'

Brilliant observation!!!

Brian Mc| 11.28.11 @ 7:12AM

I must agree, Dick. It was a bit disheartening to find no additions before heading off Thursday to my workday. I hate to think that any of the writers contributed to someone else's workload since they failed to contribute something here.

Lastly, as for the body of the effort here, I am tired of the guilt trip constantly dumped on our collective heads; how dare we Americans! If you want guilt look no further than the Xualae Tribe that was exterminated by the Cherokee in 1671. A century and a half later, the Cherokee suffered in their own way and so life goes. My half-breed Blackfoot Grandmother was the first to tell me that life wasn't fair, as I'm sure she had first-hand reference to the fact. I'll hold my breath as I await that free college tuition. While I'm doing that, I think I'll go and buy a lottery ticket...I'm feeling lucky.

nister| 11.28.11 @ 7:18AM

The Pilgrims were not murderous, but their followers and descendants were. What they did constitutes genocide, and inter-tribal warfare doesn't alter that shameful fact one iota.

Herb| 11.28.11 @ 7:38AM

If the Pilgrims' descendants are guilty of genocide, then what is to be done?

Remember, the Atlantic Ocean is a two way street.

Vern Crisler| 11.28.11 @ 10:02AM

Which followers and descendants nister? Are you perhaps thinking of that bogus claim that the British tried to infect all the Indians with smallpox?

nister| 11.28.11 @ 10:55AM

Bogus, Vern? Read up on the siege of Fort Pitt.

Vern Crisler| 11.28.11 @ 12:33PM

Yes, they are bogus. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.....estigation
http://peaceclog.wordpress.com...../smallpox/

Redstateboy| 11.28.11 @ 2:58PM

and Julius Ceasar and his Roman Legions set off on genocide of my ancestors.. what a dumb comment nister. History is full of one people F'n over another... Deal with it.

nister| 11.29.11 @ 8:22AM

Is that your advice for the Jews, as well?

Skippy| 11.29.11 @ 3:00PM

The Jews have been the subject of officially organized repression and genocide for 4,000 years.
I suspect they understand reality far better than thee.

Jimm| 11.28.11 @ 7:22AM

Rev Cho, another fool that is he more aware of other's failings then he is of is own. The solution is always confiscation with these folks. Take from others so I can absolve myself of sin.

Appleby| 11.28.11 @ 7:23AM

Thanksgiving is even more necessary in a time of Depression, when people of common sense realize that the faces around the dining table are their real blessings, and the food on the table is not an Entitlement -- it was prepared by somebody, purchased by somebody, provided by a store, who was provided by farms and factories and truck drivers and warehousemen, ship captains and crews, dock wallopers, deliverymen and janitors. Todays generation relentlessly screaming Gimmee never stops to be thankful for all the people worldwide whose combined industry and skill set that feast before them.

My Mamas family were Methodist Ministers who settled in Alabama in the late 1600s, as near as I can recall, and due to an error in recording their name on the ship manifest, we know every branch of the family in the country -- although most settled right where they landed. They were not slavemasters; they were sharecroppers. Daddys family were Jews who came to North America through Halifax and we have both Swamp Cree and Oneida mingled with that family, settled on both sides of the border and pulled their weight, including sending 6 sons to World War II. (Mamas family sent 2.) We are thankful every year for what these brave men and braver women dug in and built as our heritage. But most of all we are thankful for the faces around the table, the true strength of America.

Maxwell| 11.28.11 @ 7:59AM

Appleby, most interesting family backround. To say you have just about ALL the bases covered is an understatement.

ncatty| 11.28.11 @ 3:58PM

Methodists in Alabama in the late 1600s? Wrong on at least two counts there.

DaveS| 11.29.11 @ 3:34PM

Good catch: The Wesleys did not form Methodism until the mid-1700s - and in England. I don't think the writer's fraud was intentional.

D. Singh| 11.28.11 @ 7:49AM

A most excellent article.

Should thanks go to the British Empire, Christianity, the Church of England or the British monarchy? Or indeed a combination of all four?

1628 was the year of the Great Petition and the birth of John Bunyan - later to be persecuted by the Church of England – and who used his prison years in a Bedford jail to write ‘Pilgrims Progress’ - a warning against the doctrine of cheap grace expounded by so many of today’s preachers. Centuries earlier St Paul wrote his ‘prison letters’ (epistles) and many centuries later the great Soviet dissident Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote his prison novels: ‘Thou hast blest my prison years’:

(The LORD says, "I WILL GIVE YOU BACK WHAT YOU LOST to the swarming locusts, the hopping locusts, the stripping locusts, and the cutting locusts. It was I who sent this great destroying army against you’.)

The answer lies in the factors that led to the English Civil War (1600s – England – it foreshadowed the War of Independence – ‘midrash’). Most modern authors confess that they do not know what did in fact cause the Civil War; the most common explanation being Ship Money (taxes levied against the residents of inland counties to pay for the support and maintenance of the Royal Nay).

But I think the answer lies in the events that took place in sixteenth century England. Christians wanted to separate from the Church of England - which, at the time, was the Civil Service arm of the State. The C of E had immense power – power which it wielded to cut men’s ears off, split their noses, brand their cheeks with hot irons, level absurd charges, subject them to show trials and throw them into fetid prisons – where many died.

Once ecclesiastical power was challenged – the State was challenged: and up went the cry, ‘No bishop, no King!’

Many of the Puritans, persecuted by a Church and a King that leant towards Catholicism – fled to the new colonies (some retuned to assist in the Civil War of the mid-1600s) – and took with them legal works such as Magna Carta and Lord Chief Justice Sir Edward Coke’s ‘The Institutes’ (and Bracton’s de Legibus) – so that there would be no legal vacuum in the administration of the colonies.

Over a century later the American War of Independence began as the Second English Civil War, I humbly suggest. The British colonists who fought once more against the British Crown would have been the grand sons and daughters of those who had, eventually, LOST the gains made under the Lord Protector Oliver Cromwell – for the ‘Divine Right of Kings’ (absolute monarchical power) was not terminated but distilled into parliament and wielded by the Executive – as it is today.

The story of America began in Jerusalem; was told in Athens; travelled to Rome; journeyed via Canterbury; was made alive (once more) in a little town called Boston, Lincolnshire, England – and then fled, under persecution, to Plymouth, Massachusetts – carried in the hearts of righteous men, women and children.

It used to be said by our grandparents that the Sun does not set on the British Empire.

The Mother country’s empire was lost overnight when it abstained at the UN vote on the creation of the Jewish State.

For now it is plain for all men to see, that the Sun goes down on Britain’s former colonies every 24 hours.

It is possible that one day soon when the candle flames of Christianity are snuffed out by a new snarling and barbaric secularism – the Sun will set on the ‘land of the free’ – and men shall find themselves in chains once more.

Vern Crisler| 11.28.11 @ 10:04AM

Excellent commentary D. Singh.

Mazzuchelli| 11.28.11 @ 5:39PM

Painterly context. Thank you.

D. Singh| 11.29.11 @ 2:56AM

Sir

I have made an error in dating: it of course should read 'the Civil War of the mid-1700s'.

Melvin| 11.28.11 @ 8:05AM

Good morning gang, I'm nursing an extremely tired backside after driving up and back to visit our son and compulsive cleaning daughter-in-law.
But I am back in my quaint hovel of an office ready to give and receive extreme opinionated sarcasm.
As I was driving admiring the beautiful fall colors of the back roads of North Carolina with the moo cows contentedly grazing in their pastures, and then being shocked back into reality by some idiot that just had to get to Virgina before I did, as he cut in front of me narrowly missing a vehicle in the opposing traffic.
I wish we could say to hell with the Left and their stupid moronic analysis of how everything in this Country has gone to pot because of religious angry white males.
Thanks to the Dotcom boom and Microsoft turning what used to be a nice place called Seattle into the largest gathering of Loons since the invention of stupidity.
All those educated puffed up morons and their revisionist history should be made to stand up on facts instead of opinionated history in how they see it.
The Pilgrim types could have bent over backwards and kissed the Indians backsides and allowed them to build casinos on Plymouth Rock and they Left would have still found fault with something.
From the history that I have read the Indian tribes of this Country and Canada were having a grand time in butchering each other and enslaving the conquered tribes. But this minor factoid of history conveniently gets overlooked.
Thanksgiving to me is something we should do all the time instead of once a year. I profusely miss my sons and my daughter and I wish I could see them at least once a week. But, I'll take what I can get even though they are scattered to the four winds across this Country.
Well, I have my unseen friends here at American Spectator, and it would be nice if we could meet at least once a year, but then we probably would get on each others nerves fighting for a lap-top and arguing about whose is hogging all the bandwidth.
Well, the Lefties will be up soon and things will be back to usual, at least until Christmas, where some moonbat will be complaining about animal rights abuse because Santa Claus abuses his Reindeer by making them fly.

Anthony| 11.28.11 @ 8:37AM

Wow! Rev. Cho is one screwed up (it's the holiday season so I'll be tame here) human being. He's got all the left wing idiotic platitudes down pat, with a mixture of mixed metaphores to boot.
No idiot, the Pilgrims were not the first "illegal aliens", as the "native Americans" had no claim to the land nor a governmental structure that would have contemplated a system of organized immigration. But, it sure must make this fool feel good when he throws out a 2oth century problem to a 17th century non existent concept.
I'm suprised this moron failed to mention that the Pilgrims brought along their "carbon footprints" with them, hmmm it must have escaped this geniuses attention.
Oh well, I had to endure my own Rev. Cho over Thanksgiving, and all I can say is I'm giving thanks that the holiday is past.
What guilt these fools carry around in their empty heads, these people are CRAZY!!! America is in danger!!!

Anthony| 11.28.11 @ 8:44AM

P.S. Why doesn't Rev. Cho head back to North Korea and relive the 17th century that he pines for so much? Perhaps he can teach the pot bellied Kim Jong Ill a lesson in genocide. Unfortunately, they have no turkeys in North Korea, only dogs and rats to feast on.

JRo| 11.28.11 @ 8:50AM

"grizzly" is a bear. Grisly is the word you want here.

Petronius| 11.28.11 @ 9:48AM

Once more enduring the screech of moral indignation by hindsight. We have not parsed the Rev. Cho and his distinguished colleagues properly. What he really means is that the continent of North America will not be fit for him and his to live in until the last white Man is dead and gone, and only themselves remain to take up their cross of re-educating and shepherding all other peoples to be subservient to them. And just where have we seen this syndrome before? I believe it's called public school.

Quartermaster| 11.28.11 @ 7:35PM

Are you the same Petronius who Jerry Pournelle frequently posts on his site?

nathan| 11.28.11 @ 10:07AM

Ignoring the Spanish portion of North America and Canada let's take the part that became the United States shall we? The estimated number of Indians in that part of North America at the time of Columbus was around 8-10 million. By 1870 or so the number had dropped to around 1 million, or be generous and call it it two. Yes, we're familiar with the old, the settlers brought diseases like measles that the Indians had no immunity for and that devastated the local populations. But be serious here, all that would have worked itself out in a generation or two.

So how to account for the losses. All you who say, genocide, what genocide, ethnic cleansing what ethnic cleansing come up with a good explanation for the huge losses in population while the white population was growing albeit in part through immigration.

We read about Sand Creek, Wounded Knee. Phil Sheridan, Sherman and others made it clear that they were more than happy to kill every one of the "savages". The way the Indians were so often dehumanized "savages" "animals" all of it made it just so easy to abuse them didn't it? If you're killing an "animal" you're not really doing wrong are you? And so much of the language our sainted ancestors used in this regard could have been swapped almost word for word from the Nazis and Hutus and others in the 20th century later.

Trail of Tears anyone? David Crockett looks good on that but who else? What's fascinating here isn't it is that the Indians supposedly got a Supreme Court ruling in their favor and what did Jackson tell Marshall? You made your ruling now enforce it. The same thing by the way we see on the West Bank. The Palestinians get court rulings in their favor too regarding their lands that the wonderful only democracy in the Middle East ignores too. By the way, you saw that Newt worries about an imperial Court. No the real concern here is an imperial presidency with Newt all too willing to emulate Jackson and Lincoln and Bush/Cheney. All of you understand what you're really getting with him right?

Anyway, Indians being put on reservations that had no possibility of supporting the number of people forced onto them. Remind you of anything? Read the stories of the Warsaw Ghetto and the other ghettos. So very very similar. Now if you all don't want to call that deliberate genocide, feel free. The Indians who were the victims of the Trail of Tears, who saw family members die on those awful reservations again looking all too similar to those Holocaust Ghettos migth not agree with you.

We hold these truths to be self evident that ALL MEN are created equal that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalieanable rights . . . Unless of course you're a dirty stinking savage right?

And I'm sorry for those sainted immigrants to these shores, whose land was it? Who did it really belong to? What legal, ethical, moral right did Georgia have in the case of the Cherokees to go all Kelo VS New London on them?

I've been a conservative all my life supporting Goldwater when I was 11, reading National Review as a teenager and understanding it. And I'm just nothing short of appalled at how so many people here defend torture, human rights violations. Who say, sure the British imperialists who exploited and abused people around the world, right jolly good fellows they were. None of this is consistent with that second sentence of the Declaration of Independence. Virtually none of what the Bush/Cheney people did was constitutional. None of what our ancestors did to the Indians who were here first was consistent with those values. And yet most everyone here defends actions and policies totally contrary to the principles of the Founders. It utterly amazes me.

Anthony| 11.28.11 @ 10:44AM

nathan, who the hell are you kidding? With a selective stream of consciousness leftist rant such as yours, that includes all the" right wing" villains, Bush, Cheney, and Newt, you're about as much a Goldwater conservative as Madam Hillary still is from her Goldwater girl days.
Lucky for you you're not a girl, you'd look good, I'd bet, in a burka. Did FDR think the Japanese Americans he interned were "dirty stinking savages"? I'd say yes.
Folks like you utterly amaze me as well, pal.

JmsA| 11.28.11 @ 11:01AM

Dang it, Anthony, you stole my thunder. Good reply to the leftist, though.

Melvin| 11.28.11 @ 11:25AM

Well said, Anthony, well said. Nathan has somehow forgotten the 55 million Chinese that were murdered by Mao during the Cultural Revolution, in which the Nathan types extol as a Cultural hero.

albert constantine jr| 11.28.11 @ 8:15PM

As I recall learning, the conflicts with natives described by Nathan were two way conflicts (with the exception of the Cherokee case, which was a battle fought and won by the Cherokee in court, but lost on the ground) which the natives ultimately lost, but managed to inflict many casualties against white settlers along the way. Somehow, Custer, Fetterman and many others are ignored in Nathan's remembrance of history.

Herb| 11.28.11 @ 10:54AM

Then be amazed no longer, but go, sell all thou hast and give to the nearest Indian reservation, then return subsequent unto the Europe that engendered thy genocidal ancestors, and sin no more.

KyMouse| 11.28.11 @ 11:39AM

Nathan, if you own so much as a square inch of land in this country, you'd better give it to the nearest tribe. And if you just rent an apartment, you'd better pay rent to the nearest tribe, or make sure that your landlord is a Native American. If he or she isn't, then your rent money is supporting a land-stealer.

Seek| 11.28.11 @ 11:58AM

Miscegenation, not genocide, caused the drop in the Indian population. And genocide was a two-way street -- witness the massacres by the Indians of innocent whites at Jamestown, Va. (1622) and Fort Mims, Alabama (1813).

Butch| 11.28.11 @ 6:12PM

Confederate General Albert Pike, who commanded an outfit of indians at the Battle of Pea Ridge in Arkansas, was severely criticized by some people because his indians killed many Yankee soldiers and then took their scalps.

Vern Crisler| 11.28.11 @ 1:07PM

There is no way of knowing how many Indians lived in the Americas prior to Columbus. Estimates range from 2 million to whatever, but there is very little evidence to support any number. Advocates of the politically correct view of white extermination of "natives" tend to inflate the numbers (up to 40 million!). They do this so they can tell their tales about genocide with more dramatic numbers, because it's a lot sexier to say 40 million died of white diseases (!) than a hundred thou or so.

Skippy| 11.29.11 @ 4:34PM

They also claim tens of millions of Africans to be sold as slaves were tossed overboard by evil white men for fun.
They claim that, even today, sharks cruise the slaveship routes in hopes of lunch.
As if slave salesmen would toss good money overboard.
When I was a slave trader, I never abused my merchandise.
I wanted top dollar for my slaves!

davelnaf| 11.28.11 @ 10:17AM

Does the left ignore the sometimes snarling imperfection of the rest of the planet or is it blind to it in a way that strongly suggests the presence of mental illness? I’m certain of one thing: people like Pastor Cho are a gift that keeps on giving for conservative columnists.

sparch| 11.28.11 @ 10:23AM

I find it interesting that the liberal Rev. Cho lashes out at the Pilgrims for, like their modern day liberal counterparts, have left their world for one that returns them to the simple ideal life. Most extreme liberals I know want to find that Avatar Paradise or return to the good old days before civilized man raised the native indians out of the stone age. The diffrence between the pilgrims and the the liberals of today are that the pilgrims acted on their desires. Todays liberals are too afraid because what they would have to give up.

D. Singh| 11.28.11 @ 10:24AM

Mr nathan

In each country there are two sets of people: the Government and the governed.

Nevertheless, God gave them one thing in common: the path between righteousness and unrighteousness runs through every human heart.

Citizen Jerry| 11.28.11 @ 10:25AM

Just because someone tells an untruth and couches it in words like "Most are in agreement," it doesn't suddenly become truth.

Expect more of these hit pieces from people who have no regard for God, and who loathe all that America stands for. Some of them even post here.

Stammon| 11.28.11 @ 11:07AM

I am an American. I can trace my ancestor's roots back to Jamestown and beyond. As part American Indian I want to know who this newcomer is who questions Thanksgiving. Who does he think he is? If Rev. Cho believes that the social injustice done to the American Indians trumps every other consideration, then what is he doing here? If my European ancestors shouldn't have come then neither should he. He is not an American, he is a hypocrite.

hardcard| 11.28.11 @ 11:10AM

rev.cho is full of kimshee, and so is his mentor rev. jim wallis. there are lots of phony prophets around; rev. al sharpton, rev. j jackson, rev. j wright, need I say more?

nathan| 11.28.11 @ 11:52AM

Folks Sparch says before civilized man raised the native Indians out of the stone age. Why don't you just call them savages and be done with it? And besides, they were civilized already. Look up any definition of "civilization" you care to view and they met the criteria. Just because they didn't have the fancy buildings and the great libraries doesn't make them "savages" or meant that the westerners had a right to come in and against their will screw them over. Unalienable rights mean anything to ANY of you with regards to them? Or any of the other places our sainted ancestors went and "civilized" places without the consent of the people being "civilized"? I notice that you all aren't particularly thrilled about the jihadists coming in and trying to impose their version of "civilization" on all of you. Why do you think our ancestors had the right to do that to others against their will or that we have the right to go out and conduct this democracy jihad we're engaged in?

It's fascinating. I quote the second sentence of the Declaration, make constant reference to the principle of the Founders, and I'M the liberal? REALLY? It's like in this affirmative quota environment we live in when we quote Dr. King's content of character not color of skin portion of the speech you're a racist when you do so right?

Anthony you don't REALLY want to defend the Japanese internment do you? REALLY? I mean they were AMERICANS right? Entitled to due process right? All of you go back and read the 1866 Supreme Court ruling that blasted the Lincoln actions. What did that court say folks? That national emergencies, war whatever could not be used as a reason/excuse for throwing the Constitution under the bus. That the government still has to play by the rules. In order to separate the liberals from the conservatives here, all of you raise your hands if you agree with the 1866 ruling. Okay, you're the conservatives. The rest . . . whatever . . . .

Michelle Malkin who should know better defended what Earl Warren signed off as California Supreme Court judge. Again, unalienable rights anyone?

And I'm the liberal . . . . oh hum . . . .

sparch| 11.28.11 @ 11:58AM

Stone age means that their civilization had not progressed to any metalurgy science other than cold forming with , get this, stone.

They were nomads who lived in tents and had not progressed much further than discovering fire. How many would want to travel back and live in that age of the United States, such as it was?

nathan| 11.28.11 @ 1:00PM

I'm not saying I want to live that way. I'm saying it's not for us or the Europeans to tell them that THEY can't live that way. Send missionaries to evangelize, yes. We are again talking RIGHTS here. And the reason I keep coming back to this is because today too many "conservatives" still don't seem to get that. To get that we don't get to dictate to other people what they do, how they live. That the Founders like Washington, Jefferson weren't interested and did not support "entangling alliances" (remember that line) and going out and "civilizing" anyone.

What did Tom Paine say folks atheist though he was? To secure our own freedoms we must defend the freedoms of those we HATE. What part of that are you all not getting? I keep throwing the Founders at you all and keep get lit up as the liberal here. Orwellian newspeak indeed.

Citizen Jerry| 11.28.11 @ 1:50PM

Remember the first rule of holes: When you're in one , stop digging. It's also one of the reasons I enjoy these open forums -- it gives ignorant people the opportunity to prove it. (BTW, ignorant doesn't mean stupid. It means ignoring the obvious).

Stephen F| 11.28.11 @ 1:48PM

Cautiously I agree with some of the sentiments Nathan expresses. Europeans came to this continent and by various means wiped out and displaced the native populations. Let's not make excuses here. It happened. However we need to move on as we here now are not responsible for those acts.

KyMouse| 11.28.11 @ 2:06PM

You aren't responsible for those acts, and you are more than happy to put your principles aside and benefit from them?

Dave Williams| 11.28.11 @ 4:01PM

Sorry, I call bullshit on this one. Unless YOU, Mr. or Ms. Mouse, utterly forswear ALL the advances brought by white folks to this continent (highways, framed houses, light bulbs, etc. ad infinitum) and live, by choice as the previous primitive inhabitants did (nomadically, tradition-bound, life expectancy of 30 or so), then YOU TOO are benefiting from the European conquest of this continent. Care to put your money where your mouth is?
I thought not.

Mazzuchelli| 11.28.11 @ 5:44PM

Kool-aid, anyone?

Nick| 11.29.11 @ 1:35AM

Nathan,

They were called "savages" because they, um, acted savagely. Such as when they cut-off their enemy's genitals, or staked them to an ant-hill, or grabbed babies by the feet and smashed their skulls against trees.

Just like the SS Einsatzgruppen did to Jewish babies, a few centuries later. Who did you compare to the nazis again?

You call yourself a conservative? A conservative is supposed to be informed about the subjects on which they comment.
What, exactly, makes you a conservative? You liked Goldwater? Do you have any other credentials?

nathan| 11.29.11 @ 7:55AM

You make this too easy don't you? The settlers in North America took scalps, and read about the Sand Creek massacre some time if you want to see "real" savagry. The European settlers often times behaved every bit as barbaric as the people they were going up against. Read about the Trail of Tears sometime. If you consider what we did there civilized be my guest. And oh by the way I've been to Warsaw and the Mila 18 memorial. The way those Indians were forced onto those reservations out west, reservations that couldn't possibly support the number of people on them, can't help but remind people familiar with the Holocaust ghettos of the same thing.

I actually do my homework.

Skippy| 11.29.11 @ 4:58PM

So, besides the hair shirt I'm supposed to wear, and the endless guilt-inspired entitlements Indians get, is there anything else I should do to"recognize and acknowledge"the sins of the forefathers?
Get over it, and yourself.
I owe nobody nothin'.

Nick| 11.29.11 @ 5:59PM

Nathan,

I didn't claim that European settlers never did anything wrong, did I? I was only explaining why the American Indians of that time were called savages. There are far more examples of Indians slaughtering settlers, than the other way around.

And, oh, by the way, I've been to Disney World. Three times. Does this count for anything? Who cares where you've been? This doesn't give you any better understanding of the Holocaust than anyone else.

So, am I to assume that you have no other qualifications to claim that you are a conservative? Because you comments sure seem like they come from a bleeding heart liberal to me.

cuban pete| 11.28.11 @ 11:54AM

Rev.Cho says that Thanksgiving is the "pinnacle of historical revisionism". Shouldn't that be the nadir? Also, if it is revisionism,how can it be anything other than historical?

shipley130| 11.28.11 @ 12:05PM

People always forget to mention that the Pilgrims taught the former illegal aliens (Indians) important things, too.

Tom Kyba| 11.28.11 @ 12:13PM

There was a time when I would resist the urge to tell people like this to put up or shut up. They mean well after all and their own money by itself would never be enough to make the changes they are asking for etc. etc. but no more. I agree with those calling for gomers like this to donate everything they possess to their cause. And not posthmously. I mean now! They should be confronted on national tv and asked if they have sacrificed all they own save for a meager amount to live on ascetically. As soon as the "no that's not what I mean, I mean this" equivocating starts, they need to be interrupted with "NO, SORRY I ASKED A SIMPLE QUESTION. PLEASE ANSWER AS TO WHY IF THIS IS SUCH A CONCERN YOU DON'T DONATE ALL YOU OWN NOW. Over and over and over these people should be grilled.

Ed| 11.28.11 @ 12:13PM

Rev. Cho is just the latest of a long line of self- hating Progressives. They are not content with their own problems and neuroses, but they have to take everyone else down with them.

To paraphrase John Milton:

"If you would rather be a Prince of Hell than a Servant of Heaven, you are one seriously screwed up soul"

Franco| 11.28.11 @ 12:32PM

We gave'em smallpox, they returned the favor with syphilis.

All settled.

Quartermaster| 11.28.11 @ 7:42PM

As one wag expressed it, "Europeans civilized the Indian, and the Indian Syphilized the European.

Skippy| 11.29.11 @ 5:01PM

Home run!
And the European white guy who invented pennecillin squared the circle.

Richard| 11.28.11 @ 1:06PM

Thank you for this article, Mr. Tooley. Many of the East Anglians who departed England for North America in the middle decades of the 17th Century had direct experience with Danish and Frisian coastal raiding parties in their home villages that, though less frequent than in earlier centuries, were part of the warp and woof of English experience. The place called "England" in the 1600's was an ethnic casserole remaining after wars, raids, invasions and assorted atrocities committed by Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Danes, Normans, Vikings, Picts and Frisians. Not to mention various English wars of succession, followed by wars of religion. Mr. Tooley points out that the native peoples of North America did not exactly live in comity with one another. Ask the Hurons about the Mohawks, or ask any Plains tribe about the Comanche. The history of this continent and the history of any other is the history of conflict and forced dominion of stronger over weaker, interspersed with the vectors of disease and famine. This neither excuses anyone nor qualifies anyone for special opprobrium. The history of any existing nation involves conquest of someone at some point in the historical time line - whether one is speaking of hill peoples of New Guinea or residents of Seattle. I acknowledge the facts put forward in Nathan's first post. I can do so, and still celebrate Thanksgiving. Otherwise, I agree with KyMouse. If those like Rev. Cho are conflicted with guilt over the celebration of Thanksgiving for things they did not do, they can ship a couple of connexes of their personal effects to Rosebud, South Dakota. Twenty minutes' Googling, and they should be able to fill out a shipping manifest. Me, I'm going to the refrigerator to get out some leftover turkey for lunch. Happy Thanksgiving, and blessings.

Dr. X| 11.28.11 @ 1:06PM

Frankly, I'm sick of this horsecrap. The first guy who wants to tell me how great the Stone Age tribesmen of North America were before the evil White Man came can give up his electricity, his hot running water, his flush toilets, his Toyota Prius, his i-pad, his laptop, his sangria, his frigging Birkenstocks and his Grateful Dead bootlegs and go live in the middle of a North Dakota blizzard in a wigwam, huddled around a campfire, toothless, dressed in bison skin when it's 20 below.

The best thing that ever happened to the Indian was the White Man. I've never yet seen an Indian who wanted give up his Chevrolet and his cable television and to go back to spearing squirrels for a living in woods instead of taking the White Man's little pieces of green paper with the picture of the Great White Chief on them at a tax-free gambling casino on his "sovereign" land.

Bill| 11.29.11 @ 2:56PM

Where I live it's Plains Indian country. I notice that the Indians where I live seem to like the idea of letting their black hair grow out and letting it fly in the wind as they ride their horses over the plains, but first they have to let their hair grow, and then learn to ride horses. I bet the Indian women don't favor the idea of spending their teenage years and the few adult years they will have chewing skins so they can be made soft (and wearing their teeth down to the gums by the time they're 30), and getting their noses cut off for adultery as men define it (and everything else in Indian society).

Oregonian| 12.1.11 @ 2:18AM

Dr. X:

You made me laugh out loud! Thanks for that - this thread was becoming the most tedious pile of self-absorbed liberal navel-gazing in recent memory. Every time I need a smile, I will envision Nathan trying to explain to some Native American in Safeway that he was going to help them get back their sacred right to spear squirrels instead of picking up a couple steaks for the barbie! Beautiful!!

Mike Mattes| 11.28.11 @ 1:20PM

Mr. Tooley’s article is generally well done, but I must point out, that his comment regarding the Spanish conquistadores smacks of “Leyenda Negra” Black Legend prejudice. A style of historical writing that demonizes Spain and in particular the Spanish Empire in a politically motivated attempt to morally disqualify Spain and its people, and to incite animosity against Catholicism and Spanish rule. The Black Legend particularly exaggerates the mistreatment of the indigenous subjects in the territories of the Spanish Empire while lauding the beneficence of Protestants towards their Indian subjects. Quite the contrary, a strong historical case could be made that the Spanish were far more tolerant of their native populations than their English counterparts.

Mike Mattes

Vern Crisler| 11.28.11 @ 1:53PM

The Spanish were pretty bad, as Spanish writers of the time themselves pointed out. The claim that the English were worse is just revisionism without any foundation.

KyMouse| 11.28.11 @ 2:01PM

Friar Bartolome de las Casas came to the New World in 1502, and was appalled by the Spaniards' mistreatment of Indians. In his "History of the Indies," he wrote this about Indians who were forced to work for their conquerors:

"[They were] totally deprived of their freedom and were put in the harshest, fiercest, most horrible servitude and captivity...[Their masters] called them lazy dogs, and kicked and beat them...and this was the freedom, the good treatment, and the Christianity that Indians received."

He said much more, too.

Ken (Old Texican)| 11.28.11 @ 5:14PM

The Indians of North America were a different kettle of fish than the vast majority of Indians in the "empires" of the Aztecs and their southern brothers. (duh ...senior moment).

Most of the Indians in Mexico and south were ALREADY enslaved when the Spanish got here.
Conversely,
the tribes of North America were free-ranging hunter gatherers as a whole, with a few free-farmer communities mixed in.

A couple of hundred years stealing Spanish horses brought on the "flowering" of the north American Indian culture of mounted barbarism people point to as the "knoble red men" of legend.

Before horses...North American Indians were few and short lived primitive neanderthal type stone age dead-enders.

Nina| 11.28.11 @ 2:38PM

I love how the left will bring up the past if they think it's to their benefit as in Rev Cho (and I use the title Rev loosely) but if we go on about the merits of our Constitution, they say that's old and irrevelent now. Rev Cho, being a minister if he is indeed one, would be right in line of turning the hethens into Christians had he been on board the Mayflower. And again, my sentiments also, go back to Korea if you don't like it here. I'm sure there are many ways you can help your conntrymen in getting a fair shake, organizing protests, human rights violations, etc....instead of pining for the Natives to pick up the battle cry again....are we supposed to hand over our "stuff" and what...go back to our "native lands" pre 1600s? Geesh, If I said that about a black person, go back to Africa, I'd get reamed a new one, wouldn't I?
Thanksgiving is to give thanks for survival, no? Thanking God for another harvest? Thanking God on just being alive? Family? Roof? Food?
Well, I sincerely hope all here had a good day.

ejp| 11.28.11 @ 2:41PM

The next time I have to listen to some self-loathing "American" or "Christian" run down European settlement of the New World, my response is always going to be this: I will take what you say seriously on the same day you also call with equal fervor for the Turks to vacate the lands of the old Byzantine Empire which were in possession of the Christians who inhabited those lands much longer than the Indians were known to have been living in North America! Anything short of that is hypocrisy at its worse.

Redstateboy| 11.28.11 @ 3:11PM

I'm all for reperations!! Just as soon as the present Italian and German Governments pay me for what Julius Ceasar and later the Teutonic Knights dished out to my ancestors.. When I get mine then I'll be right in front so others can rightfully get theirs.

Does this argument not make this: "reperations" debate seem so ludicrious?

Mazzuchelli| 11.28.11 @ 5:52PM

My first lesson in revisionist history came at a Catholic high school. After mentioning to Dad, an eidetic fan of the civil war, that "Custer had it coming," I received a personal lesson in American history that blew a part in my bouffant.

Tony in Central PA| 11.28.11 @ 8:19PM

Cho again demonstrates that ignorance of actual history is the first requisite for revisionist history.

J.C.Eaton| 11.28.11 @ 10:43PM

I had a Great[to about the 10th power] uncle on the Mayflower. I'm sure he was a fine lad.Frankly, I'm quite glad he and his fine little family made the trip. About 18 years later, his bro[we call him:"Gramps] followed him over. I'm double glad HE made the trip. If he hadn't, I'd probably be long-dead at the hand of the PHS, having lived a painful, brutish, and short feral British life. Happily for me, I dwell in a state that was formerly inhabited by Hunkpapa Souix but isn't anymore because they were run out of town by the Ojibwa. So it goes. No more, no less.

POST American| 11.28.11 @ 10:47PM

----------------------FINAL WORD----------------------

"The Globalists, over the last century, have
killed hundreds of MILLIONS of people.
-----HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS-----.
---But that's just the BETA test."
-ALEX JONES
(yesterday)

Keep following them Glow-balls kiddies!

------Keep giving place to, and witholding
prosecution from, YOU--genists

------------Keep a goin'

---------------Wampum, sports n' meds

----------------------------Just keep on goin'

"--Ye Shall be as gods.
------Surely, ye Shall NOT die."

-----------------BUT YOU'LL WISH YOU HAD

nathan| 11.29.11 @ 8:23AM

I'm going to stop here but most all of you miss my point. I'll try one more time. None of this is about electricity running water, any of that. Again, we hold these truths to be self evident that ALL men are created equal [even those savages the settlers found in what would be New England, even the Bengalis the British imperialists found in Bengal, even the muslims we encounter today] they are endowed by their CREATOR [not by man, not by any congress, not by a president, not by a king not by some european imperialist] with certain UNALIENABLE rights.

We today, our ancestors before us, the sainted British imperialists, all of us/them combined lack the authority, now or then, to take away rights/property (remember the founders viewed property rights in the same light as human rights) without just cause and due process.

That means for those settlers back then they lacked the authority to arbitrarily come in and take land not belonging to them without the consent of the land owners. No Kelo VS New London. That means they had no right/authority to change their lifestyle against their will. Send missionaries, yes. To attempt to persuade peacefully, yes. At the point of a flintlock, NO.

I hammer away at this point historically because if we justify the actions of those people, if we glorify the actions of the imperialists, if we think in terms of "white man's burden", then it becomes easier to misbehave today. Which is what we are doing as I write. What did Romney say the other night, "we need to draw them toward modernity". Not if they don't want to go there. It's not our call how others live as long as they leave others alone.

Neocons have been on a democracy jihad for decades. And in part the philosophy behind it is the noble imperialists of yore. Those wonderful British who went out and "civilized" the heathens. And now, we, the noble Americans, must pick up the burden, we must now be the world's policeman just as they our sainted ancestors did.

NO. In the process of "civilizing" the heathens millions died, three million likely in the Bengal famine in 42/43 alone. Who knows how many were dispossessed from their homes. We need to understand and see realistically what actually happened to those native Americans. The more or less genocidal actions against them, the ethnic cleansing. We need to understand what the British did in the Middle East, screwing it up royally so that we can finally quit making the same mistakes. So that we can finally understand that true lasting change doesn't come from without, it must come from within. That our effort to "democratize" Iraq has ended in abject failure at the cost at maybe as many one million civilian lives on top of the 500,000 children dead (Albright's own figure in an interview she gave).

Those rights the Founders talked about were UNIVERSAL and are now. We can't go and ram democracy down these people's throats. And by glorifying what the settlers did it gives us the excuse to carry on actions that are contrary to the principles that this country was built on. No Founder would agree with actions in the Middle East today. Give me one quote supporting the undeclared war in Iraq, just one.

As Tom Paine said, people, even those we despise, have rights. Those "savages four hundred years ago, had rights. Muslims, those not engaged in illegal activities today, HAVE rights. If we continue to ignore those lessons from the past, we will repeat them. Watch the Discovery Channel show, Are You Evil. They repeated an experiment from 1961. It's all to easy to get "ordinary men" to do horrendously bad things.

That experiment both then and now, we need to be careful here folks. D0n't assume those death camps can't happen here. After all the British invented the concentration camps when they used them against the Boers.

Enough for me. Have a safe Christmas and try to remember what the holiday is about. It's about that risen Savior we all should get to know.

Crafty Bernardo| 11.29.11 @ 11:13AM

"The academic and Religious Left believe that Western Civilization, especially America, is uniquely contaminating to an otherwise pristine world."

Oh really? (chin in palms). Oh please, tell me, Mr. Religious right, what else the left believes.

I didn't bother to read a sentence beyond that... reading the rest of this would be like walking into a house after you've seen that the foundation was constructed of an amalgum styrofoam peanuts and jello...

Uhhh... yeah. I think I'll sit this one out. Not interested. Not buying. I don't need to know more about the house than the fact that the foundation is obviously incredibly faulty.

It's hilarous to me when those who are the farthest possible from any level of understanding of how someone thinks tells us all about how that someone thinks.

Narcissism is fun!

Bill| 11.29.11 @ 3:10PM

I'm not exactly a religious Rightie, but I am a Christian and pretty much of a rightie, so let's see: what does the left believe about Western civilization?

It's imperialist and capitalist, in fact lefties believe that capitalism needs imperialism in order to create ever-expanding new markets for the generation of greater and greater wealth, thereby creating human misery in more and more places. Lefties believe that capitalism exploits industrial workers and doesn't benefit them at all. Lefties believe that Western Christianity is "the opiate of the masses," created by the ruling classes that evolved in the West to keep the workers satisified with the inadequate lives that are forced upon them. Lefties believe that corporate greed creates human misery and ignore the fact that socialist and communist countries create far more human misery.

Lefties believe that people are basically good, that it is best for human virtue, cooperation, and the good life in general, that humans live communistically in groups in which government is non-existent, and in order to bring that goal about, they institute the most tyrannical governments history has ever known, anywhere and anytime. Lefties believe that youth does not suffer from the sclerosis that age and experience instill in people, and therefore young people ought to lead the rest of us. Therefore the OWS people -and other youthful rebels- must be right in some way.

Leftists believe that if a system is imperfect, it should be discarded, preferably overturned by revolution, rather than take the trouble to reform it by peaceful means.

Is that enough, or shall I go on?

Lefties believe that human nature should be unconstrained. They believe with Rousseau that "man is born free, but is everywhere in chains." Since most the rest of Western civilization doesn't subscribe to that vision, but instead believes that people are not perfectible, but subject to error, and that societies and civilizations exist to provide structure and a set of norms that help people to define themselves and live peaceful, orderly, lives, lefties find themselves to do anything necessary to upset the applecart regardless of the consequences. Anything other than this, i.e., Western civilization.

I could go on and on...

Bill| 11.29.11 @ 2:47PM

Thanksgiving began as a regional holiday in New England. It became a national holiday of the kind we know today, because President Abraham Lincoln declared that the Union's survival after the battle of Antietam required thanks to God, just as the early Separatists wanted to have a feast to celebrate a successful harvest and thank God for their survival in the New World.

I've heard this year that some public schools are attempting to portray the first Pilgrim Thanksgiving as a giving of thanks to the Indians for helping them survive. What nonsense.

Professor Cho can just go scratch. Things turned out badly for the Pilgrim-Indian relationship rather quickly. That was 400 years ago. Time for the professors and the historians to get over it. I suppose the Indians themselves are entitled to some degree of resentment, but you know what? Get with the program; show some damn gratitude that white folks eventually got the message and left you alone after admittedly far too long, and thank God for your dang blessings.

I have two ancestors who lived through that terrible first winter. They were NOT illegal aliens because there were no illegal aliens in 1621. My ancestors also participated in the Pequot massacre 16 years later. That was bad. I don't know how many generations later it is now from me back to them, but it's a bunch, so I don't have any apologies to make. Those who might expect one from a person today for the acts of people 400 years ago are expecting too much. So just shut up.

Rockerbabe| 11.29.11 @ 10:40PM

Not everyone feels the same about the American holiday known as Thanksgiving. For me, it is the most treasured holiday in the year, not just a prelude to Christmas shopping and glorification of glutony.

Leave the native people alone; they have suffered enough at the hands of our white government and its lies. They have their own celebrations and their own culture; they do not need ours for the most part. Prior to the colonization of north america by the Europeans, it has been estimated at as many as 10 million natives were here. That is hardly sparse population. But be that as it may, there is no excuse for the dismal treatment they suffered at the hand of our government and it greed.