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Loose Canons
COIN Fatigue Disease
The firing of Major General Peter Fuller underscores growing U.S. military disillusion with its counterinsurgency — nation-building — efforts in Afghanistan.
(Page 2 of 2)
They were told that we would leave Iraq stable, independent and an ally. That didn’t happen. They were told the same thing about Afghanistan and — looking around themselves — they know that won’t happen either.
Our troops aren’t stupid: they’re better, smarter and better-trained than ever before. What Fuller said must be a genuine reflection of the beliefs of the men he worked for, worked with and commanded. I remember a young army colonel telling me, six years ago in Baghdad, “If you want to break this army, break your promises to it.” And that’s the problem: too many promises, too many inconsistencies, and too little for the troops to look at and say, “We accomplished that.”
Which brings us back to Fuller’s words to the Afghan generals. He’s obviously frustrated by their lack of understanding of and apparent unconcern with America’s standpoint. He spoke as the man in charge of training their forces and seeing to it that those forces will be able to operate effectively and independently when we leave. Which they are, perforce, not going to be. And as clearly as Fuller saw it from his perch atop the training pyramid, we have to understand that — in the grunt’s eye view — things can only be worse.
There are only two cures for COIN fatigue: victory, or a long period of recovery after a retreat. As Petraeus said, we’re not going to defeat the Taliban.
The only historical comparison to Iraq/Afghanistan is Vietnam. Our forces had fought a counterinsurgency and a part-time war with the North though we never tried to topple the Hanoi regime. They felt the same sort of COIN fatigue that Fuller’s words exclaim.
It took thirty years for our military to recover from its Vietnam fatigue. But in those years we fought a Cold War, not a major hot one. This one won’t be close to over when we leave Afghanistan. How long will it take to recover this time?
About the Author
Jed Babbin served as a Deputy Undersecretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush. He is the author of several bestselling books including Inside the Asylum and In the Words of Our Enemies. You can follow him on Twitter @jedbabbin.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (79) | Leave a comment
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Ret. Marine| 11.14.11 @ 7:06AM
It does not take a gifted idiot to understand the moves the "i won" has been making with our military warriors, our former servents of this Republic, from Generals to Pvt's, private flipp'n civilians. The common thread is, if you side with the muslim-n-theif, obama, you are a faithful trooper in the cause of the islamization of these United States, and are a friend of the brotherhood of muslims in complience with the agenda of the world wide caliphate, say one word outside of the pledge to garner their support, you're fired. Yeah I understand the protocol in military terms, one does not speak outside of the Chain of Command, but, come on people, the truth tellers are fired because of the truth, and by this frauds own ( mouth peices of this regime) admission. This is a disgraceful petty tyrant, a pretender pretending to know he knows what he is talking about. I would take the words of a Military Officer over this fraud any day of any week.
By their own admission, the regime of obamas bin ly'n, this is a failed policy, and we cant have our military leaders confirm the same. This punk calling himself someone's pResident, is so far outside the league of our warriors and the American point of view our our security matters, this will end up being a disaster of which has never been witnessed in all of history. God please save our Republic from this idiot-n-thief.
arlo price| 11.14.11 @ 8:56AM
The obamagedon PIMP thugocracy chugs along...
Assimilation occurring on the pimps terms. Degradation of the military, WTC mosque, sharia law, open borders......... neighborhood housewife hookers is how the pimp assimilates!
Let's Roll
Occam's Tool| 11.14.11 @ 11:35AM
Ret. marine: thank you for your service.
This is why I hold to the doctrine of destroy your enemies: don't fight them. Win their hearts and minds AFTER their abject surrender, not before. That way the lesson STICKS.
Worked well for the Brits, and "Bobs."
Al Adab| 11.14.11 @ 11:49AM
Correct Occam. The military is not a social ser vice agency. It is designed for ane purpose only and its misuse for nation building of social engineering is doomed to failure. Because it fails at those jobs we lose faith that it can suceed in its proper mission. Limits on the exercise of power, yes.
RND| 11.14.11 @ 4:16PM
Also while we do the nation building missions, the soldiers who are supposed to operate Abrams tanks, Bradley Fighting Vehicles, artillery pieces, and detonation devices.....well, none of that happens.
In just a 6-8 month period of "peacekeeping" missions, you errode completely the rugged combat skills troops MUST have. It takes great skill to put steel on target in all weather conditions, on ugly terrain, and in the dead of night. The lightning fast teamwork required. The stealth. These are very perishable skills.
They are lost when we have guys out doing pseudo patrolling and lining the indigenous folk up for free medical clinics or a regional voting precinct's vote day.
Yet our generals never say 'bleep' about how untrained our guys become very, very fast in these non-stop grand-scale Meals on Wheels deployments.
Warfighters? No, we make them into overweight aid workers.
JimH| 11.14.11 @ 12:56PM
Occam I know you are a smart educated guy and I largely agree with your approach, though we may differ somewhat on the appropriate circumstances for such actions. So maybe you can help reduce my ignorance somewhat. First of all, who are the Bobs? Second, where did Britain go in and slaughter the locals prior to taking over? Afghanistan? No, they did not have much success there. India? They were brutal at times, but much of the success came from pitting local princes against each other. China? That got some concessions following some nasty fighting but they did not conquer the place. North America, the Caribbean? Most action here was against other European powers not natives. This leaves Africa. The Brits were pretty harsh to the Boers and they killed a fair number of natives, though nowhere near as many as the other Europeans. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you?
TrueBlue| 11.16.11 @ 10:58AM
Worked well with Japan too.
Negro X| 11.14.11 @ 7:26AM
Generals should speak their minds from time to time especially in case where the war has drug on for a decade.You have an idiot in White House who is absolutely clueless as to what he should be doing.
COIN has never worked and pointing to British operations in Mayala is pointless. British battled 6000 communists in a contained area, without popular support for 10 years. Starvation played a bigger role there tahn combat operations.
Pecos Pete| 11.14.11 @ 7:27AM
The new military protocol: Telling the Truth = Early Retirement
PS to Retired Marine: Excellent post!
Al Adab| 11.14.11 @ 11:51AM
Brother X; Pete:
Remember Douglas MacArthur?
Richard Baker| 11.14.11 @ 7:34AM
General Fuller is saying what needs to be said as did Jack Singlaub about Carter's idiotic plans for our forces in the Pacific and Asia. If General Fuller is retired/leaves as did Singlaub then that's the price for outspokenness. In todays PC military a Patton, Smedley D. Butler, Puller, or Lemay wouldn't make it to Major. God help us.
TrueBlue| 11.16.11 @ 11:03AM
And that's the sad part. Great leaders like MacArthur and Patton would have gotten tossed out in today's military. POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DOES NOT BELONG IN THE MILITARY.
DTOM| 11.14.11 @ 8:16AM
The USMC fought its first battle against the Dey of Tripoli in what 1802? The Arabs have been warring on us for the entire length of our history - they just couldn't get at us because of our Navy and the Atlantic Ocean.
Anyone saying that the current war with the Muslims began on 9/11, or in 1979 has just forgotten too much history.
The biggest difference between this war and the others we have fought is that we converted the losers to our way of thought-free market capitalism with a good dose of Western Civilization. The only place we have failed in that victory/conversion is against Muslims. This is an old, old fight - and only recently has the other side begun to be strong enough to threaten us.
Anybody feel like doing some more domestic drilling for oil? Please.
ole meanie| 11.14.11 @ 8:25AM
As Negro X says, COIN has never worked. COIN is not "nationbuilding", anymore than shooting an arsonist is the same as building a fire department.
COIN is not even required if the populace WANTS its "nation" built. But when what the populace wants is you outa there, you get an "insurgency". And then you fight an endless, pointless battle to stay. And you eventually have to leave. With no "nation" built.
Generals who speak out are speaking out for their troops. The public has already figured the Afghan mess out, as well as the Iraq mess. God only knows what the politicians think they are doing, but surely they know we are not going to "win", and don't want to admit it.
To Jed Babbin, I say that Obama is truly a disaster, but Obama did not start this mess, Bush--with the neocons whispering in his ear--plunged us into this morass. If Obama doesn't get us out, he is derelict in judgment. We should not waste our good menn and women in the Middle East.
Gr0w1er601| 11.14.11 @ 9:56AM
Afghanistan: graveyard of empires. 'Nuff said.
Occam's Tool| 11.14.11 @ 11:36AM
Not a graveyard if one is willing to kill without remorse until abject surrender or a desert ensues. "Humanitarian" considerations always leave one with savages still alive to mutilate young women.
Al Adab| 11.14.11 @ 12:26PM
The major military failure of the Bush administration was the decision NOT to take the country to war after 9-11. Where was the million man army, where the 400 ship Navy, where the 32 Air Force wings? Why no issue of war bonds and finally why are the cities which had public celebrations of the 9-11 attacks not today (or on 9-12) a desert of green glass? No we should not be engaged in nation building or policing Afghanistan or Iraq. That, not the invasions, are the error.
Jim Johnson| 11.14.11 @ 8:16PM
Occam's you are right on. At what point did our leadership forget that war is a contest of will?
Wars, all wars throughout all of history, have been about crushing you enemy and either taking his land or demanding tribute. We need to get back to winning.
Dsf| 11.14.11 @ 11:41PM
WW 2. We destroyed our enemies totally, and then we set about the work of rebuilding them into two od our strongest allies during the cold war, AND two of the top 5 economies to boot. but only after total victory was obtained. Nation re- building before total victory is putting the cart before the horse.
ole meanie| 11.15.11 @ 8:21AM
Well, I share your sentiments, but facts intrude. The Russians were willing to engage in killing without remorse, and they didn't win.
LMajito| 11.14.11 @ 2:21PM
Really? Check Genghis Khan take on the afghans...he had the right formula and by 1259 the area known today as afghanistan/pakistan was nothing more than a distant province...but when he arrived...which usually went something like...Genghis Khan ordering the wholesale massacre of most of the civilians, enslaving the rest and executing their leaders by pouring molten silver into their ears and eyes, as retribution for their actions....if any leader/chief got away, he charged Subutai and Jebe with hunting them down, giving them about two years and 20,000 men to carry on the mission...
but don't expect the american politicians in dc to have the stomach to take care of business right...then again, there are those defense contractors who are in the business of selling war equipment...they need prolonged wars to make any money...
Big Tony| 11.14.11 @ 8:33AM
Americans had always fought for a clear purpose: to defeat a defined enemy and end the threat he posed to our way of life.
What alternate universe have you been livng in?
The article's main point is good but this statement is idiotic.
Most of people in Washington are clueless and unfortunately most of the people that elect them are as well.
Tenn Slim| 11.14.11 @ 9:00AM
COIN Fatique is as old as Alexander the Great.
His Soldiers wanted to quit at the Indian Border to the Indus River valley. Tired, dispirited, shy of "Nation Building" problems, a warrior wants to do the battle, enjoy the spoils and go home.
Staying on, in any country, in any age, is for the Logistics folks, the Engineers, the folks that support, build and re build after conflict. They have an entirely different attitude toward a country.
COIN did not work in NAM, did not work in Korea, Did not work in Pre WW2 Phillipines, and it wont work in Afghanistan. The whole concept requires almost 100% dedicated cooperation from the locals. W/O that, the COIN projects are just money pits.
end
Semper Fi
ole meanie| 11.15.11 @ 8:25AM
It also didn't work inAlgeria for the French. As you say, it never worked in those other countries either. The reason it never works is that killing doesn't "win hearts and minds".
RJ| 11.14.11 @ 9:02AM
Princeton Patreaus is now at the CIA. Prior, he was "da man" for COIN. Oh yea, Bremer wore those rep ties in Iraq, Bush flew the jets on weekends, and Obama-Mao was either answering the call to prayer or listening to Ayers, perhaps Wright et al.
A common thread within our nationally elected so called leadership group seems to be "law school" educated, does it not? Great training especially for the "passive-aggressive" personality.
How many of these elected people are veterans? How many considered "combat" veterans? Give me a percentage, if possible. What would that tell one if considering how one would fight a "war" in modern times?
Don't bomb the mosque...where weapons are hidden...don't run over the graves in a muslim cemetary...and don't fight on one of their holidays! Let Sadr live for another day.
And remember, Iran is not building nuclear weapons...no no!
LMajito| 11.14.11 @ 2:28PM
hmmm papa bush was a combat vet but he wimped out 60 miles south of baghdad and stopped gulf war I troops from entering the city 'coz the battle was not being fought 'gentlemanly' as that other wuz powell stated...then storming norman forgot the first rule when conquering an army...the head clown is the one that surrenders not his lackies...it was saddam who should have been in the tent...so afterwards saddam (who did understand the rule of war in the me) decapitated the surrending generals because according to him, they were the ones that surrended not him...
rn| 11.14.11 @ 3:55PM
LMajito, very, very correct. Didn't it bother in the extreme George H.W. Bush and Powell and Norman Schwarzkopf that Sadaam was not present at that "surrender" event with its, what, 14 points?
How stupid are/were they? You have to publicly shame a battlefield loser. You have to rip from him his false pride. And in dazzling live video and photos that last forever in the history books.
Norm Schwartzkopf could have easily said, "No. No deal until Saddam himself is sitting across from me begging for these very generous terms. Otherwise we'll continue surgical strikes to 'decaptate' Iraq of its leadership while considering an Abrams tank invations of Baghdad."
The lowlifes that occupy are White House and who serve in cabinet posts is the rule. George H.W. Bush and his dozens of advisors were jerks that are directly responsible for the casualities we have experienced in Iraq since April 2003. (That's a lot of casualties)
Sage insight, LMajito.
rendite| 11.14.11 @ 4:02PM
Sort of like Washington nixing (standing down) the mission to overrun the Hessians on Christmas Eve in Trenton.....
Whoops. George Washington didn't let a thing like Christmas get in the way. Just the opposite, he knew exactly how to exploit a potential enemy weakness.
I guess Ramadan is over? So we can at least test fire our weapons. After all, wouldn't want to hurt their ears or sensibilities firing rounds into the air during a 'special' time.
How about Qwanza? (Kwanza?) Can we plan an assault or mission during that time or is that off-limits, too?
You're a good man, RJ. Don't stop thinkin', postin' and agitatin' until our generals & admirals are all put to miserable shame for their lunacies.
Indy| 11.14.11 @ 9:38AM
If you have not read "Lone Survivor" by Marcus Luttrell, I highly recommend it. The eyewitness account of what happened to Seal Team 10 brings so much clarity on why nation building has failed in Afghanistan and will in the Middle East. Afghanistan is tribal and most of the population is illiterate, there is no way you can bring democracy to a country without a basic foundation of an educated population. These people are struggling with basic needs, food, water, shelter and safety.
What is our role in Lybia, Uganda and Sudan? We have completely lost our way and our abusing our military especially Special Operations. Who is looking out for our troops? National security must be at the core of any decision to deploy troops overseas and not nation building, nor the "Responsibility to Protect." We are living in dangerous times and our leadership continues to make poor decisions, Congress is silent and our military and their families suffer while our nation is weaker...not good.
All American American| 11.14.11 @ 10:19AM
COIN didn't fail Luttrell on that mission---failure to follow the mission's ROE did. If they just killed the Afghani sheep-raper and his son like they were supposed to, nobody dies that day. Instead 3 SEALS plus an entire rescue team (not to mention one destroyed helo) perished--for what exactly?
COIN is horrible, but no more horrible than making "compassioned" decisions about piss-ant enemies at the cost of highly skilled SpecOps and rescue team members.
I served 21 years. You don't follow ROE, bad things happen. If that were me and my buddies, instead of voting on whether to kill or not kill the Afghanis, we'd have been voting on who gets to slit their throats. Sorry if that bothers some but war is hell as they say. My mission, my men, and their families mean more to me than the worthless lives of two illiterate enemy scumbags.
Indy| 11.14.11 @ 10:53AM
I understand your point about ROE (yes, war is hell, I have not served but have family members who have and they would echo your comments) the point I was trying to make is the tribal make up of Afghanistan which Luttrell brings to light to the reader from a boots on the ground perspective. Nation building in a tribal country will fail.
Thank you for your service!
All American American| 11.14.11 @ 10:59AM
I am completely in agreement with you re: Afghanistan. Although to me the tribal thing is just one "strike" the population of Afghanistan has going against it. To wit:
Tribal+highly illiterate+muslim = three strikes and we should be out of there.
This is something our military "leaders" should have understood before going in. Fuller simply brings to light a complaint I had my entire career, that is the higher rank an officer is the more he is politician and less he is warrior. It goes for certain SNCOs as well. They spend more time trying to network for their post-military career and less time actually being a warrior that it doesn't surprise me they do this COIN nonsense and various other dhimmifying of the troops.
Sheila| 11.14.11 @ 11:47AM
" . . the higher rank an officer is the more he is a politician and less he is a warrior." THIS. I've heard this from many others in the military and it's immediately detectible when watching or listening to many military officers, particularly those promoted during Carter or Clinton years. After decades of determined assault by the statists, our military forces are beginning to crumble from within. Officers who are politicians pushing women and gays and immigrants and illiterates as our nation's defenders. The only recruits they don't want are White, Christian Americans. Decline and fall.
All American American, thank you for your service.
All American American| 11.14.11 @ 3:28PM
Indy & Sheila, thank you!
Occam's Tool| 11.14.11 @ 11:44AM
Oh no, it can succeed if you fight the war that way. When there is a terrorist from a certain family---kill the entire family. If the tribe is infiltrated---kill the tribe. Do DNA testing on the inhabitants of a certain area to know who to kill.
All laid out nicely and neatly by Colonel Tom Kratman JD, former head of instruction of rule of law at the Army War College.
But you have to be willing to do this. I think it is worthwhile.
Occam's Tool| 11.14.11 @ 11:39AM
Triple A: Absolutely correct. Absolutely correct.
AFTER unconditional surrender is the time to win hearts and minds, not before.
One trifle: I think the ROEs were too pussilanimous. They should be constructed to protect Americans first, Afghans second. ALWAYS.
All American American| 11.14.11 @ 3:27PM
OT I was speaking specifically to this recon mission Luttrell and his brother SEALS were on. The ROE for it was if they were discovered to kill any so the recon mission would not fail. They were discovered by a shepherd and his son, and instead of killing the two outright they had a vote. Since one SEAL Team member voted to let the two go, they did. The two squealed and the rest is history.
I think an underlying problem I had with this story (besides the obvious) is when/where/how/why are our SpecOps guys learning "compassion?" These are dudes who are supposed to be trained killers, yet that training took a back seat to whatever "muslim sensitivity" crap they were also trained in (believe me they train EVERYONE in the military before you get deployed---its garbage--I always thought they should teach the koran, but I digress).
I mean if our SpecOps guys are too compassionate to succeed and it gets them killed, is it any wonder we are 10+ years into this never-ending (apparently) circle jerk?
Oh well.
ole meanie| 11.15.11 @ 8:32AM
When we eliminated the draft, we eliminated the chance that a politician's child would ever be drafted and miused in a mismanaged war. Now we have a volunteer military which many view as a "professional military class" whose members sign on for whatever stupic project the politicians come up with, and are expected to accept being killed or maimed in consideration of their pay and benefits.
albert constantine jr.| 11.14.11 @ 9:56AM
Some thoughts in response to the article and the other posts: I believe that we need to be prepared to fight any and all wars that we can afford in blood and treasure to protect our freedoms and interests. I also think, though, that we are very shortsighted if we think that arriving at what we call “victory” settles the matter. Victory at Yorktown- less than 30 years later we had that thing in 1812 to work out the details. Mexican War- there certainly remain no disputes 163 years later as to the borders of the US and Mexico and who should control what territory (ignoring, of course, that thing in 1915 with Pancho Villa). The War Between the States settled one thing, it certainly ended all talk about secession (or if not talk, at least states firing on US forts). There certainly have been no disputes regarding state’s rights or the manumission of slaves and the disposition of those once held in involuntary servitude, have there? We went into the Spanish American War in part to help free the Cuban people from the yolk of the Spanish Empire. More than a century later, we can say that one worked out, didn’t it? World War I, there was the war that ended all wars, correct? I think when we went back a couple of decades later, we were on to something when we stuck around in Western Europe and Japan, as DTOM suggests, picking up most of the tab and responsibility for their defense, until the militarism was bred out of these cultures (at least for now). That still led to the enslavement of eastern Europe by our erstwhile ally, the loss of China to their fellow communist travelers, and the eventual Korean and Viet Nam Wars, at the cost of more than 100,000 more American lives (though we did stick around in South Korea, and they are more free and prosperous than they have ever been, and likely appreciate it less than they ever have it the 60 years since we began to expend Amercian blood and treasure on their behalf).
I suppose the point would be that the escalation of disputes into shooting wars might result in the death of your enemy of the moment, most of the time, even if your underlying problem is solved, a new one will likely result as a change. Sometimes nation building might be an effective strategy in how we follow up a victory, other times it might not have a chance to succeed. Sometimes so large a footprint might not be necessary (no Soviet-Cuban airports in Grenada for more than 25 years), but we always need to be prepared to go back again or to the next place whenever we decide to use force to protect our interests. While great credit for all we have achieved as a nation goes to those who put it all on the line to defend and protect us, as a citizenry, we continue to show ourselves to be impatient and somewhat delusional about the challenges to our interests and what constitutes victory over these challenges. As President GWB suggested in announcing the GWOT, we have to be prepared to be in it for the long haul, paying every price (including, at times, putting our own butts and the lives of our children on the line). If we are not, we should reconsider threatening or using force.
Timothy L. Pennell| 11.14.11 @ 10:00AM
Everybody continues to sell this Messiah short. He's Stupid. He's inexperienced. He's an Empty Suit. He doesn't know what he's doing.
I would remind everyone of what he has ACCOMPLISHED in his small time at the Helm.
He has taken us from atop our Pedestal, as the World's foremost Capitalist Country, and has sown the seeds of SOCIALISM for our future. He has removed us from Space. He has removed us as the Preeminent Force on the Planet. He has done the unthinkable. He OWNS the Car Companies. He OWNS Banks and Insurance Companies. He has told Bond Holders to Go to Hell, when it comes to their CONTRACTS with these Companies, and has given them to HIS PEOPLE. The Unions. Heil Hitler! Viva le Revolution! He dictates Salaries, and seeks to dictate how much a Company MUST spend on the things that HE decides.
He has sent SWAT TEAMS in to Gibson Guitar to CONFISCATE their materials, in the guise of "Enforcing Indian Law". He has stopped a Private Company - BOEING - from opening up another Facility in an American State, because HE doesn't want them to. He controls our Children's Higher Education, through his takeover of the School Loan Program. He has set in motion a Tidal Wave of Businesses leaving this Country, for Greener Pastures, with his Taxes, and Regulations, and his Economy of the Living Dead. He REWARDS his friends and PUNISHES his enemies. And he is now ruling this Land by Executive Order. "Long live the KING!"
And, this all brings us back to the Original Story: His actions vis a vi Afghanistan. He doesn't CARE about Afghanistan. He doesn't CARE about Iraq. "But, they might go ISLAMIST!!!!!!!!!!" He doesn't care. He's one of them. He was raised in the Muslim Schools and Muslim Mosques, of Indonesia, for the 1st 11 Years of his life.
To him. Iraq and Afghanistan are TOOLS, to be used for the Greater Glory of HIM. It's not about us. It's not about them. It's all about him.
He's bringing ALL of the Troops home from Iraq, not because it's the right thing to do. But, because HE wants the Credit, Politically. He will pull us out of Afghanistan, before next year's election. I would bet Jackass in Wi's Life, Clint's Life, the life of Alan Brooks, AND the lives of all of Alan's Boyfriends at the local Truck Stop, that he does this. NOT because it's the right thing to do. But, because yada yada yada, it's in HIS interest.
He has taken us to the BRINK of being Venezuela, and a 2nd rate Economic power with no Industry, no Jobs, and on a fast track to attaining Third World Status. And he's done it in less than 3 Years.
You people keep confusing STUPID with EVIL.
Wake Up.
Indy| 11.14.11 @ 11:04AM
The seeds of socialism were planted long before Obama was elected, what happened was a perfect storm (remember never let a serious crisis go to waste), the progressives took over the Senate and the House what I mean is more hard leftists were elected and they got to the magic 60 bullet proof Senate so they pushed through the Stimulus, Dodd Frank and Obamacare, the nail in the coffin of free markets and sealed socialism. Many of us saw what was happening and we did what we could to prevent Cap / Trade from passing the Senate and elected more conservatives to the Senate and flipped the House...the big story was what happened in state legislatures and governorships...since then the weak GOP leadership has failed our country, Boehner and McConnell are weak leaders, we saw immediately the caves in the Lame Duck session and they have not stopped caving....another is coming as the House has signaled that they are considering a vote on a plain balanced budget amendment with no caps and no supermajority as a requirement for any tax increases. The GOP leadership and the GOP candidates are silent and POTUS governs via executive order...and the media cheers him along.
shermbodius rides again!| 11.14.11 @ 4:26PM
Tim and Indy, great points and this reality is breaking my heart. I sit and look at the corruption run rampant and as a 2 time Iraq vet wonder if I could do more. Obviously voting against the socialists hasn't done much.
Occam's Tool| 11.14.11 @ 11:45AM
If I might echo Slim Pickens here, Tim: "Dito."
ArmyAviator| 11.14.11 @ 10:18AM
We didn't win in either Iraq or Afghanistan because the politicians and political correctness has run the war. It's not possible to win, when our soldiers and marines are required to make "muslim sensitivities" their first and foremost task. We NEVER set out to win. Even the so-called surge was doomed to failure because of the way we fought and continue to do so, and because of the nature of the enemy. The hillarious part is that our armed forces recruit MUSLIMS into our ranks. These enemies will ALWAYS be Muslims first and will NEVER be Americans! Oh, they say we only recruit GOOD muslims. I suppose that during WW2, we should have recruited good NAZIS then? I'm sure it would have made my Dad feel really good, to have had a "good Nazi" as his commanding officer, or as a member of his bomber crew.
Obama is in the process of Islamization and the destruction of our nation every way possible. Getting rid of Pete Fuller is just another removal of a non-politicized General Officer. Obama MUST have politically reliable officers, especially General Officers. So for Pete Fuller's TRUE comments, he had to be fired. Liberal Socialists, like Obama and his ilk, HATE the truth. It has to be kept under the lid.
rn| 11.14.11 @ 3:40PM
Army Aviator, good post! Thanks. You obviously know whereof you speak.
Locally for the past two years I have crossed paths with a former Iraqi translator for our US forces. His duties were always in and around the capital, Baghdad.
He concerns me greatly. He is a 100% Iraqi and a frankly not-s0-quiet full-edged opportunist. His English is still only marginal. He often looks -- no other way to put this -- devious and sinister. (facial demeanor)
The deal for him? For five years of service to our US forces (he was under multiple officer supervisors as we rotate officer leadership constantly) in Iraq, he now has a renewable permanent green card for the US -- residency and work. If he stays on course and keeps his nose clean, he is to become a US citizen. This is a program used to "thank" those who collaborated with us in Iraq.
Based on what I've witnessed and heard in our conversations over the past two years, do I really trust him? No.
Do I think he's already engaged in some low level criminality here? (I pause) Answer: Yeah, probably.
To sum up: I know that we want to believe in the good of man. That somehow all hearts have some deep, genuine goodness as a comonality no matter where one was born and raised on this globe. No matter what cultural background.
This Iraqi man, now 34, will in 10 years be a US citizen. His motives for all of this? Purely pure? I have my sincere doubts.
abdullah shabazz| 11.14.11 @ 10:20AM
We're walking out of Iraq. But we're staying in Afghanistan.
Why? You can buy oil, but sand?
We need a secure supply of sand. And Afghanistan has a lock on the world's reserves of sand.
That's the best reason I can find for being in Afghanistan. Anyone got a better one?
rendite| 11.14.11 @ 3:28PM
Yeah, actually addullah s., believe it or not, Afghanistan (and Pakistan) have superb deposits also beneath their soil. Some in those mountains to the SE. Stuff we need. Stuff the Chinese also are hot after.
Not disagreeing. I have no idea why we are not already (for the last 6 years) running a joint US/Exxon cooperative with a 70 - 30 split with Iraqis on the oil reserves in Iraq.
If I were prez, that is what I would have done. There is no shame in gaining some spoils from freeing a people from a jackboot-dungeons-and firing squad dictator (with perverted, megalomaniac sons).
These ventures of mercy around the globe are US$ very costly. No shame at all in then 1) fixing up the oil extraction equipment and facilities with the host nation, and then 2) sharing the business and revenues with them for the foreseeable 40 years.
Yes, as the USA, we'll come free you from your dictator. Yes, we will. But not at the cost of bleeding our US goodwill citizens' wallets empty. As the USA, we'll gain a bit of a profit from your natural resources while simultaneously showing you how to set up state-of-the-art industry that will employ your people and stabilize your new country.
So....You, got it, Hugo Chavez? Comprende?
ole meanie| 11.15.11 @ 8:38AM
Very witty, but understates the truly critical rexource: rocks.
cicero| 11.14.11 @ 10:54AM
We seem always to be looking for the "end of history". Constantine's post was great. History marches on, and the price of liberty is constant vigilance, and defense.
Where the rub comes is when we try to impose our long march to liberal democracy onto societies that are where the West was in about 400 B.C. That is not a very wise thing to attempt.
Our bigger problem is that we are giving up ground. The Founders always knew that democracy can only maintain with a literate (educated) population. That is where our failure begins. However, we cannot sanely believe that we can bring our sense of civic virtue to tribal societies, merely be deposing the despot of the moment. If attacked, we can kill the offenders, and leave. Staying to bring the society that followed the despot forwardd 3000 years is not very realistic.
Old Soldier| 11.14.11 @ 11:36AM
"I will not defend Fuller. What he said weren't things any American general should say publicly."
I adamantly disagree! He said exactly what needed to be said.
We are pouring our treasure and blood into Afghanistan - and they don't give a damn. They are led by a corrupt ingrate who side against us. WHY? WHY do we toleate it?
The troops know it. All young Marines and combat Soldiers develop very accute Bullshit detectors. If their Generals don't speak the truth, the enlisted men will know - and lose respect and confidence in their leaders.
What are we doing in a place where a General can't be honest?
Occam's Tool| 11.14.11 @ 11:45AM
Again, as Slim Pickens said: "Ditto." This POTUS is an idiot.
Tim the Enchanter| 11.14.11 @ 1:36PM
Just HAVE to write this. "Ditto? Ditto? you provincial putz!"
albert constantine jr| 11.14.11 @ 6:12PM
"Mr. Lamar, you use you mouth prettier than..."
rendite| 11.14.11 @ 3:19PM
Occam, while not disagreeing with your sentiment about the present-day POTUS, uh, c'mon. The former POTUS got the ball rolling in Afghanistan and then mismanaged it. The generals, bureaucrats at CENTCOM and the Pentagon, the legions of beltway bandits (Defense contractors around D.C.) all contibute in very measurable, real ways to the absurdities of Afgahnistan/Pakistan/Iraq. These efforts and missions could all be done so much better. And at grealy less US taxpayer ongoing expense in billions. And with fewer of our guys lost and maimed forever.
Yes, POTUS present is an idiot, narcisistic, and a national embarassment. But this could be said about hundred and hundreds that have mismanaged Afghanistan, containing Pakistan, tackling terrorism, and Iraq. Petraeus, Casey, Mullen, the recently retired SecDef,....
The CINC is a fool. He's frankly in grand company.
Redstateboy| 11.14.11 @ 11:50AM
Where!! Where are the Code Pinks?! the Cindy Sheahan's? Where's all the anti-war Liber-uls? It's just a perfect example of Liber-ul hypocrisy.. When Dubbya was Pres. - they were constantly acting like jerks but now... Hussein's in charge and crickets chirp louder than these SOB's do? wuzzupwitdat Libs?
Al Adab| 11.14.11 @ 1:58PM
Red:
You should know by now that those protests only apply when Republicans are in office.
ABNCP| 11.14.11 @ 12:17PM
T. L. Pennell yeah, you have it. Obama is not stupid, he has been as successful as his background has allowed him to be. He is working to an agenda that was put in place by the Soros Cabal that identified him, recruited him, found the support group required to direct him and paid the price required to put him on the Democrat ticket.
As far as our Military and ROE's are concerned, the politicans have never had a problem trading American Military lives for some popular political concept. Those of us who served in Vietnam will never forget the insanity that came out of Washington during those years. How many of our brothers were KIA, WIA and MIA due, in many respects to the dumb ass ROE decisions from the suits in D.C.
Ron| 11.14.11 @ 2:13PM
What is sad is the general's apparent lack of understanding of the political landscape and NerObama's control of the media...Interviewing with Politico? What was General Fuller thinking of, and being even anything near critical of NerObama's leadership is the fast way to be removed.
Nina| 11.14.11 @ 2:44PM
I think that when military commanders speak out now, it's due to their frustration and disappointment in their leader. They are fighting with one hand tied behind their backs and are expected to come out on top with both sides happy! I think Generals should have a right to speak their minds in such instances especially when we have a COC that hasn't a clue what being in the military is like. I think that should be on future resume's for the WH, past military experience!
rn| 11.14.11 @ 3:04PM
Nina, I share your sentiment. But, please, let me state very clearly for you and all here: PC-ishness and unfair (self-defeating) rules of engagement that hamstring and risk our guys out in the places of 'harm's way' has been the norm in the last 25 years of US military operations in all theatres of our globe.
These absurdities are not unique to the present U.S. chain of command that leads to the White House. Our guys when deployed to Panama (Noriega takedown), Somalia, Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq in 2003, even the rules just now against Kaddafi in Libya -- all of these 'engagements' -- certainly to varying degrees -- faced the absurdities of bizarre rules of engagment.
Understand? Our military leaders still in uniform and the suits in DOD are usually empty suit, kiss-ass, all-thumbs paperwork fruitcakes. Line up 60 of 'em on a wall. Maybe 1 has some usefullness/utility.
rd| 11.14.11 @ 2:55PM
Jeb Babbin wrote, "I will not defend Fuller. What he said weren't things any American general should say publicly."
Oh? Babbin, what pickled cranium to you possess?
I am delighted when I finally hear ass-tight PC-suckin military generals or admirals finally admit the truth.
11 years now...in Afghanistan. And what we got to show for it? A general who publicly states what we all KNOW (his comments are like 5% of the crap we put up with daily from Afghan sleaze and bribe-me-please 'leaders.') is to be appreciated for that rare thing called : Candor.
Americans have every right to candor and clear-speak. Call it like it is. We've been paying for this absurdity long enough.
Would that 500 more US and NATO colonels and generals who've been in Afghanistan in the last 5 years would "open up" and tell us the truth. (Yeah, most won't. Not on your life. It damages their careers and that is always job #1)
shipley130| 11.14.11 @ 4:00PM
Actually, I think there needs to be a very public airing of truth. How can Americans be expected to keep funding military operations and not be told the raw truth?
shipley130| 11.14.11 @ 4:10PM
When we keep electing little war mongering lawyers like Lindsey Graham and hot dogging, military jet crashing pilots like John McCain into office, what else should we expect but chaos?
Al Adab| 11.14.11 @ 5:32PM
I seem to remember that McCain lost the election. Hindsight makes that rather sad don't you think?
shipley130| 11.14.11 @ 7:38PM
He didn't lose his Senate seat, unfortunately. I blame the Obama train wreck partly on McCain and the republican machine.
Havoc| 11.14.11 @ 5:22PM
As I recall, Mr. Babbin did not defend Colonel West, either.
Gary B| 11.14.11 @ 7:51PM
Of course this so-called war is a bottomless pit. I read elsewhere that the whole point is not a military victory, but the transfer of wealth from taxpayers to the military-industrial complex. As always, follow the money. What really pains me and all of us here is the needless loss of life defending that drug dealer SOB and his worthless pile of rocks. Some generals are generals; others are kiss-ass politicians and it's easy to tell the difference.
Thom| 11.14.11 @ 7:55PM
For some time the truth about the folly of some of our missions have remained locked behind protocol. General Garrison, famous of Black Hawk Down in 1993, knew he was under gunned for the mission he was given and despite having requested reinforcements and having them turned down by the Clinton Administration still undertook a much riskier daylight mission which turned into a tragedy of sorts. He had a choice to put his men before the mission or the mission before his men. He chose the latter and his men suffered.
Likewise Mac Arthur went outside protocol to illustrate the insanity of his then Commander in Chief who ordered him into Korea knowing we didn’t have the forces for a protracted conflict and after saving Truman’s arse with an end run around the North Korean forces and turning a serious setback into a route Truman still didn’t grasp that you don’t get involved in a fight just for the sake of good intentions especially with a General that had had to undertake 4 long bloody years fighting the Japanese to the last man in every battle. Korea was our first post WWII loss and not the last by any means. The Irony of Mac Arthur and Truman dispute was that Truman didn’t bat an eye making the decision to drop two atomic bombs on the Japanese to shorten a war and Mac Arthur was against dropping the bomb… Now consider what Mac Arthur was asking Truman to do in Korea in light of that. Mac Arthur didn’t really want to nuke the Chinese but he did want to “win” the war Truman had ordered him into. Mac Arthur’s public disagreement with Truman made Truman look like a fool, which he was sort of….. Truman left office with a 22% presidential approval rating. I wonder why?
We sent 567,000 troops to Vietnam of which about 60,000 or 72 infantry battalions were the core of the fighting force. The rest were combat and non-combat support. The VC matched us man for man and the NVA was more than a match for the ARVN most of the war. At no time under any commander did we take the offensive to the NVA and destroy their ability to fight and be the source of supplies and arms for the VC. Like all such defensive wars, the enemy gets to decide when, where and how they will fight most of the time while the defending forces only have to let their guard down in one place. A decade of this kind of counter insurgency warfare produced some enormous casualties for the Communist forces, perhaps as high as 20 to 1 our own but never high enough to defeat the NVA which was central to the continuation of the war on their terms. I was in boot camp during the summer of 1972 when the US only had 50,000 troops in country and was to shortly go “volunteer only” for Vietnam service. The NVA was about to start a multi year campaign in South Vietnam in violation of the Peace Treaty that would topple the government of South Vietnam in 1975. We lost in Vietnam because we forgot what the military mission was as had been the case in Korea before that.
We went into both Afghanistan and Iraq with great economy of force…… in both cases we won the immediate battles but proceeded to losing the war due to lack of forces in both campaigns. The 45,000 man Taliban force in control of Afghanistan was out fought by a the 15,000 man Northern Alliance with heavy support from our SF and air power but we did not commit enough force to surround, hold in place and destroy the bulk of the Taliban. Most of it escaped into Pakistan to live, train and fight another day. Like Vietnam this story repeats over and over again because we don’t have the forces and capability to defeat our enemy decisively. Same deal with Iraq, the 15 combat Brigades (about 60,000) out of the 135,000 total US forces plus allies could not put a damper on the insurgency in Iraq for going on three years. Rumsfeld thought we were facing only about 5,000 insurgences a year while we were killing a nominal 15,000 each of three years before the Surge of 5 more BE. Eight years after our take down of Iraq is the mission really finished? I can’t get high ranking Generals involved in the planning and execution of those missions to even comment on them.
Now Afghanistan is the hopeless cause….. McChrystal, King Obama’s handpicked General simply pulled a “Mac Arthur” so as to not be the fall guy for what is coming down the pike. All the rest is window dressing for the eventual failure of the mission. Anyone remember what the original mission into Afghanistan was? It wasn’t to capture OBL and company and bring them to justice btw.
Common to all these failures is a common thread of thinking that undercuts the mission every time it is tried. It isn’t simply that COIN does not work except in the most limited situations either. What was it, 14 tours in 10 years the latest decorated combat vet was killed in? What kind of life do the people doing the actual fighting have when you boil it down? I’ve known several people who have vacationed in both Iraq and Afghanistan and the story is not surprisingly similar. All were in their late 30s on too. I know one who was in the Mog in 1993 and took three hits in the plates….. They are all tired of being the Cop on patrol and letting the other guy throw the first grenade from underneath their civilian garb….. Time after time. And then you have the Benefit Soldiers, the non-combat types who we buy with promises of free training and education after 3-4 years in and then on to the big bucks paid for by Uncle Sam. It is the elite force of Cooks, Supply Clerks, Engine Mechanics, Truck drivers, JAG and similar essential Technicians to a modern mechanized force that complaint the most about the deployments and “stop loss” orders but the death dealers’ cadre is tiring of fighting the same battles year after year in the same places simply to buy time for a mission failure to be kicked down the road for another President to have to deal with. Call it COIN fatigue or the realization by the one’s bearing the bulk of the burden that their officers either don’t know what they are doing or that they don’t care to speak the truth.
Like I said, this has been going on for some time even as far back as my service in uniform, one my generation was advised to not wear off base and sometimes ordered to not wear off base. We are destroying the finest military man for man money can buy by committing it to half arsed missions it does not have the forces or capability to accomplish. COIN is just one of the agents of its destruction. Like Garrison, too many high ranking Officers will put their career a head of doing the right thing when the mission is Fubar….
McChrystal, the Democrat saw the writing on the wall and wanted nothing to do with it thus…. Speak up and get retired early. Maybe if enough Generals found their balls again this Nation would stop engaging in such folly as we seem to like to do? That’s probably too much to ask of Type A personalities but there is always hope that some might put honor before career someday.
Gary B| 11.14.11 @ 11:11PM
I was hoping one or more of the top generals would simply resign in protest over the impossible rules of engagement we ask our young people to endure. They're put into the position of cops in a culture they don't understand. One wrong move and, boom, they're on trial for their lives. It's about time politicians (and the damned State Department) were put on some sort of trial. This pointless BS has to stop.
One governor with guts could start the ball rolling. He or she could say, "My goal is to get the federal government the hell out of our state and off the backs of our citizens."
If one of them did that... bam! Instant national hero.
10th Amendment?| 11.15.11 @ 2:07AM
Gary B. I'm with you. I'd love to see a governor do this in a well-prepared rant at Washington, D.C.
Most wouldn't ever think it. Not in 500 years. Just pull out a really detailed map of your state (really detailed) and view all the federal facilities within your state's boundaries. If a state could somehow jettison all its federal ties (impossible), it would lose in every possible way economically.
Senators and congressmen salivate over US military post expansions and moves because when you bring in 12,000 more troops and 30,000 more family members, you are creating 800 on post jobs and 4,000 off post jobs.
That spells bonanza.
If NASA had some new big project and was looking for a new location to build, test and launch this "project" in any of our southern states, you would have governors literally killing each other to win this NASA project.
To end the stupidity in Afghanistan; however, a governor could say that he's vehemently opposed to one more of his state National Guard units going over for the 4th time already. He could and should rant at all of Washington, D.C. officialdom on this.
TMF | 11.14.11 @ 8:22PM
I thought these general officers were so wise? Why the hell was this one talking to Politico?
Ever heard of RollingStone?
Thom| 11.14.11 @ 8:30PM
Perhaps that was the plan, to get relieved of command....
rd| 11.15.11 @ 2:12AM
Yep. Get out. And hit easy street on a big, sweet pension. And then in about 6 months start his vice president job at one of the Beltway's mega-$ millions Defense Conractors.
The 180 days is the legal limitation for "transition." So they start on day 181 or 185. Thereabouts.
That is the plan. He's probably sayin', yep, that's all I needed to do, "Do the McChrystal."
pj| 11.14.11 @ 8:55PM
a cartoon in the investors business daily said it best:
You put the surge troops in, you take the surge troops out, you put the surge troops in, and you ship them all about, you say you want to win then you want to take them out.....Politics is what it aaall about!
D Roamer | 11.15.11 @ 2:14AM
When the CIC has shown disdain and total disregard of his commanders, when he is inept from day one; I applaud this general for speaking out. I realize that he could have done this within the circle of his command structure and all that, the regulations, and on and on.
General, resign and start another career for your nation who respects you.
Gary B| 11.15.11 @ 6:46AM
Hear, hear...
ole meanie| 11.15.11 @ 8:55AM
I question the very idea of going to war for any reason other than the total destruction of a country and the people in it. Any other use of our forces is a misuse and doomed to fail.
I have often reflected that, after we brought all those troops and all that power to Vietnam, we spent 10 years, lost 58,000 lives, and were driven out by out by a determined enemy. We never "built" a stable goverment--government changed hands about 7 times while we were there.
I believe that if we go to war, it should be to win decisively, and get out, leaving no stone standing on another. Let people rebuild their own "nations". It will keep them busy and out of mischief for a few decades.
Thomas| 11.15.11 @ 9:11AM
The fixation that people have over Afghanistan always amazes me. Afghanistan is of no importance in the world. Absolutely none. It is not a crossroads for trade. It has no critical natural resources. 60% of the country is useless for crop production. And, worst of all, culturally, it is stuck in the 10th century b.c. This country is exactly the same today as it was at the time of Alexander's invasion.
I have noted this before, but allow me to do so again. The only reason for the U.S. to invade Afghanistan was because Osama Bin Ladin was there. Once it became clear that he was no longer there, the country should have been abandoned. There was no strategic reason, and almost no tactical reason, for the continued occupation of Afghanistan, at that point. Enter the politicians.
Some maroon gets the idea that we can build the people of Afghanistan into a real modern, Western style civilization. The only problem with that is the fact that you are not dealing with either a modern or Western culture. You are dealing with a culture based upon clans which are ruled, in most cases, by a warlord. A culture which is at a Bronze age level and whose main crop is the opium poppy. Not exactly good candidates for shopping malls and a manufacturing society. Yet, for some unknown reason, the politicians of this country irrevocably tie our national prestige to an impossible task, making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. And, the logistics of supporting an occupation of Afghanistan is a nightmare. The country is surrounded by parties who are hostile, or semi-hostile, to the United States and supply has to go through these counties.
Every military commander in Afghanistan has said the same thing for the last five years; get out now. Nothing more can be done there and we are only wasting manpower, money and time. Maybe it is time to listen to them.
Ken Royall| 11.16.11 @ 2:03AM
We need to get out of there yesterday, no reason for me to reiterate what others have said quite eloquently other than to say we should not be spending lives and treasure to support an Islamist state that is antithetical to American values. Sadly that is the BEST CASE scenario. I really wish one of the Republican candidates would stand up and say that clearly. He would have the people behind him.