The American Spectator : Religion Flocks to Wall Street

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Religion Flocks to Wall Street

By Mark Tooley on 10.28.11 @ 6:10AM

The Occupy movement is enjoying predictable if unsolicited support from religious believers in government redistribution and social resentments.

Because they are Americans, the Wall Street Occupiers are suffused with messianic purpose, as are nearly all our nation’s American political crusades. But the often raggedy Occupiers themselves do not seem specifically oriented towards organized religion.

Not to worry. Religious Leftists of all sorts have rallied to the Occupiers’ bedraggled banners. Guided by the Social Gospel’s emphasis on social justice over theological details, these religionists discern God’s Kingdom among the squatters’ tents and sleeping bags. One group of clergy visited while carrying a mock golden idol shaped like the dreaded Wall Street Bull, the very incarnation of greed.

Praising the Occupation is a gamble for liberal evangelicals, who have tried so hard to appear centrist in recent years, anxious to softly persuade suburban churchgoers to abandon their conservative voting habits. Oldline Protestant elites, along with left-wing Catholic activists, of course welcome the Occupation as a long overdue 1960s revival.

The Executive Council of the once prestigious Episcopal Church publicly declared recently “that the growing movement of peaceful protests in public spaces in the United States and throughout the world in resistance to the exploitation of people for profit or power bears faithful witness in the tradition of Jesus to the sinful inequities in society.”

There was a time, not too long ago, when Wall Street and the Episcopal Church were viewed, not unfairly, as almost interchangeable. J. Pierpoint Morgan once famously carried his denomination’s bishops on his private train to the Episcopal Church General Convention. It’s doubtful that Episcopal Diocese of Long Island Bishop Lawrence Provenzano, who personally paid homage to the Wall Street Occupation, will be getting any train rides from prominent financiers. After his pilgrimage, the bishop met at nearby historic Trinity Episcopal Church, Wall Street, with interfaith leaders to discuss how religions can back the Occupation’s goals, whatever they are.

Meanwhile, the top Presbyterian Church USA lobbyist on Capitol Hill also has enthusiastically backed Occupy Wall Street. The Rev. J. Herbert Nelson, director of the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) Office of Public Witness, fresh from his October trial for being arrested this summer in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda protesting federal budget limits, is now touting the Occupation as the next trendy cause to rouse ordinarily staid Presbyterians.

“One of the things I am convinced of is that faith has a role to play in the leadership of these movements,” the Rev. Nelson recently enthused to a newspaper. “There are people who are angry because they may not be able to go to school … angry because they have been locked out and left out for years,” he explained. “When we begin to talk about a constitutional right to protest … there will be a time where people will resist,” he even warned, adding “We could be looking at a Tunisia or Egypt.”

Such dramatic language, predicting Occupy Wall Street could start to look like the “Arab Spring,” with violent government crackdowns, and turmoil. Rev. Nelson implied that peaceful church prelates could offer counsel on how to keep the lid on while still pursuing the Occupation’s supposedly laudable but vague goals.

United Church of Christ President Geoffrey Black hailed a popular picture showing Jesus cleansing the temple of money changes as “The Original ‘Occupy Wall Street’ Protester.” The reverend insisted this illustration is “helpful,” “gives people of faith a frame with which to assess what is going on with this movement,” and “makes the relationship between Christian faith and the quest for economic justice clear for all to see.”

Not to be outdone, the ever left-wing United Methodist Women’s Division, during their directors meeting in New York City, even marched down to Wall Street to join the Occupation. Funded by local church bake sales and church bazaars, they carried their own protest placards endorsing the Occupation’s assorted demands, which typically include cancellation of all private debt, open borders, massive tax hikes, elimination of credit rating agencies, complete government control of health care, and free college for everyone.

This call towards utopia, enshrouded simultaneously in grievance, entitlement, idealism, and youthful naiveté, has understandably seduced old-style street activists like Jim Wallis of Sojourners, or even Brian McLaren of the emergent church movement. “When they stand with the poor, they stand with Jesus,” Wallis has pronounced, even before himself visiting the Occupation, which doubtless only amplified his excited nostalgia. “‘The occupation of God has begun’” might inspire the same fear and hope among people today as ‘the Kingdom of God is at hand’ inspired in the first century,” gushed McLaren, after attending his own local Occupation protest.

Representing a newer generation of Evangelical liberal is Shane Claiborne, a winsome young white man who typically sports dreadlocks, a bandana, and a rustic smock, while proclaiming good news for the poor to attentive middle class evangelical students. “In a world where 1 percent of the world owns half the world’s stuff, we are beginning to realize that there is enough for everyone’s need, but there is not enough for everyone’s greed,” he recently insisted. “Lots of folks are beginning to say, ‘Maybe God has a different dream for the world than the Wall Street dream.’”

The dubious statistic about the wicked “1 percent” aside, Claiborne speaks some truth. But he and the other religious enthusiasts for Wall Street aren’t calling for individuals to shed their wealth for God’s Kingdom. Of course, they primarily want an all powerful state to seize and redistribute wealth according to some imagined just formula, after which the lion will lie peaceably with the lamb. It’s a utopian dream, not based on the Gospels, always monstrous when attempted, and premised more on resentment than godly generosity. But it’s a message that will always have an audience in a covetous world.

About the Author

Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (219) | Leave a comment Leave a comment

Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 10.28.11 @ 6:12AM

As soon as the government has a complete dictatorship, the first thing that usually happens is the banishment of religion, followed by the enslavement of the entitled class.

DTOM| 10.28.11 @ 6:58AM

Well, the guys Mark Tooley referred to probably won't have anything to worry about, then.

ENOUGH ROPE| 10.29.11 @ 1:44AM

Religious leftists love themselves, power, and financial comfort much more than they love God and neighbor; they merely do a better con job as altruists than the "Reverends" who are religious and racial hustlers.

Tocqueville allegedly wrote that "America is great because America is good. When America stops being good, America will stop being great." We believers and practitioners of the Judeo-Christian religions know that we need to pray to God for His grace to increase our goodness and holiness. As each one of us strives to perfect our holiness, then our good and genuine examples of humility, forgiveness, love, service, unselfishness , and peacefulness will be noticed by our neighbors at work, worship, play, and love. As holiness grows in the community of family, then it will flow to the church community, and then to the various communities in which we work, play, worship, and love. As our numbers grow, then we demonstrate to others that loving God in a deep spiritual unity with Him produces people who love truth , goodness, beauty, and love of God and neighbor.

As our spiritual life grows from bad or indifferent to good, and from good to better, and from better to best, then the Ten Commandments and Christ's Two Commandments will no longer be impositions for us; instead our hearts and minds will use the twelve commandments to counter their relative temptations to sin with selfless words and deeds of agape love.

In the early centuries of the Church, it was said about Christians "Look how they love one another." St. Francis of Assisi asked Brother Leo to walk with him into town to preach the Gospel. The two brothers walked around the village square and nearby streets and then started to leave the village. Brother Leo asked "I thought we were going to preach the Gospel?" St. Francis replied "We already did. Use words when necessary." BEING holy strengthens listeners' belief in spoken holy words.

Delta Zelda| 10.30.11 @ 4:39PM

So true and so right.

Mike 3/505| 10.28.11 @ 11:04AM

Or the establishment of a state religion as a means of controlling the population.

Regards,

Mike

DTOM| 10.28.11 @ 11:21AM

They already have - it's called Environmentalism...Their main feast day is Earth Day.

Thanks, Richard Milhouse.

Another fine mess you got us into!

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 11:26AM

And that type of "Religion" is more akin to the Religion of Marxism.
Oh wait!
That's what it IS.

Nancy in NC| 10.28.11 @ 12:15PM

90% of the time the "occupiers" are considerably more secular than religious. And much of the language and rhetoric I have heard is far less than Christian.
I cannot believe that God expects us to encourage other people's sloth, greed and envy by having the government to continue to sponsor their bad behavior. Did anyone notice what happened in FL when the takers had to get drug tests?

I believe in helping the truly needy and ill...through private charity, and that's it. The government uses welfare as a means to control those who have failed to control themselves.

In this day and age we pretty much have a level playing field. If you don't care to go to school or learn anything while you're that, why is that my problem? If you choose to have a number of children with no visible means of support, ditto.

We need to reestablish orphanages in this country. We are paying many to take care of children they neither want nor provide decent care of.

People need some tough love and sound religion...not just calling on God when all else has failed.

Appleby| 10.28.11 @ 12:28PM

Mr. Reagan pointed out that if each church in America took rsponsibility for ten poor families, poverty would vanish overnight -- and the people who were being helped would become productive and happy members of society because the people who looked after them would be able to see them as people, not as case file numbers.

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 12:34PM

Nancy & Appleby, well said!

Nick| 10.28.11 @ 3:00PM

Appleby,

Mr. Reagan's sentiment is nice, but not possible.
Christ said that the poor will always be with us (cf Matthew 26:11; Mark 14:7; John 12:8).

There will always be people who will chose to be poor, or, make bad decisions that result in poverty. Because there will always be those who reject God.

Although, I believe if churches did what Mr. Reagan said, poverty would be greatly reduced. This would make it easier to undo the welfare state. I'm all for that.

Appleby| 10.28.11 @ 3:07PM

You are discussing a difference that Herman Cain has articulated (and so did my sainted Daddy) as the difference between being "poor" and being "po." The former being the condition of "without money or means" and the latter being a mindset.

But if you actually read the quotation, Jesus is saying to the disciples, "Tend to the poor after I'm gone; I won't be here long, and they'll still be around when I go."

There are SOME advantages to having spent 3 years in Bible College.

Nick| 10.28.11 @ 3:51PM

Appleby,

I completely agree.
My only point was that Christians shouldn't delude themselves into thinking we can eradicate poverty. That is Utopian thinking and contrary to fallen human nature.
God Bless!

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 4:53PM

Nick,

There are those who choose to be poor because they choose to live for the Gospel.

And there are those who are poor because it is their lot in life, due to circumstances.

And then, there are the poor in spirit.. and what He said about them.

Poorness doesn't mean rejection of God. That's just plain weird to try and say.
And Appleby wasn't nor was Reagan touting Utopia. Sheesh.

And then you end with agreeing with Reagan anyway???
Oh, never mind. I don't know why I bother.

Nick| 10.28.11 @ 5:28PM

Margie,

Your bias and animosity towards me is blinding you to what I wrote. Try reading it again.
God Bless!

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 7:04PM

Of cooooouuuurse.

Jeamar37| 10.28.11 @ 11:09PM

Margie--I wholeheartedly agree with you. Both the Old and New Testament say, in so many words, we will always have the poor among us, but the mainline, organized churches don't pay much attention to Biblical teachings anymore. Their interpretation really is social utopianism.
I wonder where the author met a liberal Evangelical? I can't recall ever meeting one who actually attended a church but have met those liberals who say they are Christian.

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 11:45AM

I'd venture to say that most churches today are liberal, and that they're the norm.
So called liberal evangelicals preach another gospel. like one of "prosperity" aka Joel Osteen, for example.
Or a gospel of "Sin, what sin?" One where it "isn't niiiice" to tell people they're heading to Hell without Christ.
The one where you're a Bigot if you tell them they belong to a cult and need to repent and come to Christ, because "that's being unloving."

Genuine Christians who stand on the Word of God are despised... in case you haven't noticed.

Nick| 10.29.11 @ 2:28PM

I don't despise you, Margie.
I still love you, no matter how many insults you type on your keyboard.
God Bless!

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 8:17PM

Cute... as a snake.

Papist Troll| 10.29.11 @ 10:50PM

Stop playing the victim looking for sympathy because you aren't a Christian, and have no credibility to preach how to live or repent.
You're the one needs to repent and stop your bigotry.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 10:05AM

Repent, Papist.
Jesus is LORD.
You reject the Scripture and believe a lie.
Christ has no "vicar" on Earth.
Repent and believe the Gospel of God.
Beginning with Mk. 1:1.

Al Adab| 10.28.11 @ 4:33PM

Margie:
It actually represents idolotry as the worship of Gaia (the environment), or the godess Choice, or Tolerance, or Diversity demands our obedience. Fortunately, those gods cannot claim as their own either you or I.

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 4:58PM

What? Enviro-Mental-ism? Oh, I agree.
My post was to Mike 3/505's though, concerning a state run Religion.

So anyhow, we still agree.

Brian Mc| 10.28.11 @ 6:45AM

One of the first mistakes these kindergartners make is to believe that if they scream long and loud enough they will get a government that's out there, somewhere, all-compassionate which will right all the wrongs and make life fair. Little do they consider what they will lose in the attempt.

Happiness can never come from without but only from within. All the things they are screaming for are immaterial. What feeble little fools who would be the ruin of us all. They demand heaven while having never considered from an internal perspective what it takes to get there.

The winds of November can't get here soon enough. And, once they do, we can pray that this all will just dry up and blow away. I find myself imagining a world where everyone works furtively utilizing the gifts they've been given. But, this would demand that the rich in spirit come down from their high horses, wouldn't it?

Appleby| 10.28.11 @ 6:48AM

When will we see these Occupiers selling all they have and giving it to the Poor? Arent they in fact intent on driving the Poor out of their Woodstock Fantasy Camp?

To me this looks more and more like the End Times, and I like Benjamin Franklin prefer that when the Last Trumpet sounds, to be found about my Fathers work.

Tina B| 10.28.11 @ 9:34AM

Yes, sir. Me too.

PolishKnight| 10.28.11 @ 9:41AM

Ironically Brian and Appleby, that's largely what is happening with Wall Street embracing policies such as "outsourcing" and H1B visas: They are "sharing" the wealth of middle class private workers with the poor nations and getting around pesky laws such as human rights abuses in the workplace and toxic waste dumping to boot.

Simultaneously, Wall Street is doing very little to harm the kind of work that these youngsters all dream of having: government or educational union jobs. So even as the protestors march at Wall Street, they largely consider it irrelevant or haven't thought their whole ideology through: They don't want capitalism and hate outsourcing when it means sending jobs overseas to make cheaper iPads but simultaneously they view it as the source of taxable wealth to power government and union jobs.

At the same time, most of Wall Street is occupied by hypocritical Marxists or truly bad capitalists they rail against who happily undermine the free market for short term wealth. Will illegal workers who are future voters in some hotel chain vote to protect millionaire wealth?

It's hard for me to care about Wall Street really. I'd like to see it broken up and the companies relocate to red state America like many of the remaining factories and stop asking the consumer to indirectly pay their million dollar rents to live in overcrowded crumbling buildings.

Nancy in NC| 10.28.11 @ 12:16PM

No, they want you to do that to support their sorry asses. Shame on me for paying my mortgage, credit card bills, etc.

Nina| 10.28.11 @ 1:55PM

I have yet to hear the truely homeless complain...they only want the OWSers food and even that, they are getting complaints about. They will lower their standards of eating just to flesh out the real homeless and ex-cons...what a joke! The churches supporting this can't see the forest for the trees...it will come back to bite them in their holier than thou buttocks!

Old Soldier| 10.28.11 @ 7:00AM

"Love your neighbor as yourself"

“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

I cannot for the life of me understand how the OWS people or the supposed Christians supporting them can justify their actions. They are not Christians. The State is their God and their savior.

Dave Raymer| 10.28.11 @ 7:55AM

Exactly right, and they ignore the lesson taught by Christ to the disciples (the woman and the oil in the alabaster flask) as described in Matthew 26. The poor shall always be with us. No amount of redistribution of wealth will every change that fact. There is in fact evidence that would support the argument, when the Government provides too much, the people no longer support each other. Look at charitable giving within the nations of Europe.

For the record, I was once very active within the Episcopal Church of the US, and this sort of behavior from Anglicans is not surprising. Talk about a group that has lost the path ...

Dave Raymer| 10.28.11 @ 7:55AM

s/will every/will ever/g -- sorry about that.

PJ| 10.28.11 @ 8:28AM

You're absolutely correct about charitable giving in Europe.

A great example of this was the Pacific tsunami tragedy in 2004. While the European governments donated millions, their people contributed a drop in the bucket compared to the American people.

After the Japanese tsunami of this yr, notice how very little was reported about donations from any country's people.

Appleby| 10.28.11 @ 12:31PM

The Canadian government dumps $taxes out the door as "charity" and then tells those who are already paying, willing or not, that they will "match" any money the taxpayers willingly pony up WITH MORE TAX MONEY.

How on earth does this make sense?

race_to_the_bottom| 10.28.11 @ 8:56AM

Yes, Old Soldier, you are so right. I will bet there are very few who uphold the Christian principles of limited government, low taxes, a strong America, and free enterprise.

Peter Yankov| 10.28.11 @ 11:33AM

WHy do the stupid spend so much time blustering about things they know nothing about. I mean you , stupid.

Tina B| 10.28.11 @ 9:41AM

or they are their own gods, and saviors.

The Emergent Church has always had social justice at its roots, and hasnow become just another movement of Satan's to corrupt Christ's Bride from within.

I don't doubt that there are many people disenfranchised by the "mainline" denominations, and who have joined in house groups of like-minded folks for prayer, worship and/or Bible study, but their leaders are corruptable and Satan is hard at work in these last days.

Harry the Horrible| 10.28.11 @ 11:17AM

There is also "If you do not work, you shall not eat." from the Letters of Paul.

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 11:29AM

Old Soldier: Those pesky Commandments! Why.. they're in the OLD TESTAMENT for goodness' sake!

Ask RCV, he'll tell you.

"We must loooove one another now."

RCV| 10.29.11 @ 12:24PM

We should love God and one another, as Jesus -- God incarnate, Margie -- has taught us. On those two commandments rest all of the Law and the Prophets. God bless.

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 12:49PM

Hypocrite!
You see fit to judge me previously that I'm not a Christian and yet I posted your own words where you said you do not consider the Bible (God's Own Words) to be inerrant!
That the Apostle Paul isn't to be listened to because "he was only human."
And many others have taken you to task.
And now you see fit to once again do your filthy work again here with me?
Take it up with God, liar.
And then go crawl back under your rock, venomous snake!

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 12:51PM

Oh, and you say with your own mouth that Homosexuality is not sin. And you say it without fear of God's Judgement because you have no fear of God in you!
Repent, hypocrite!

RCV| 10.29.11 @ 1:32PM

I acknowledge who God is, Margie. You don't. Once you focus on the central question, we can discuss the details.

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 8:19PM

Riiiight.

"Jesus answered him, "If a man loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." Jn. 14:23.

Repent, snake.

RCV| 10.29.11 @ 1:00PM

I didn't pick this fight, Margie, you did. But since you did, here goes.

It is especially ironic that Margie, of all people, purports to lecture others on what a true Christian is, when in fact she rejects the central tenant of Christianity, that Jesus is God.

Either you believe that there is one God, and that Jesus and the Father are of one being; or, you are a polytheist and believe that there are multiple Gods, and Jesus and the Father are separate, but both divine; or, as Margie does, you believe that there is one God, God the Father, and that Jesus, His son, is a lesser mortal being who is Lord, but not God.

The latter is Margie's view, as she has made clear, although she tries to obscure that belief, because people will the know that she is not a Christian in any common understanding of the term. She's entitled to hold that view, certainly. In fact, her conception of who Jesus is is shared by many people, those who call themselves Muslim. They also believe that the one God, the Father, created Jesus Christ miraculously in the Virhin Mary, and that at Judgement Day, He will return. Like Margie, however, they do not believe that Jesus is God, of one being with the Father.

We don't need Margie, a non-Christian, to lecture us on true Christianity.

Nick| 10.29.11 @ 2:43PM

RCV,

The Church of Latter Day Saints, also, doesn't believe in the Triune God. They deny that Christ was One with the Father.

They also believe the Church apostatized very early on, and that the real church went underground, only to pop up again, centuries later.

Sound familiar?
Have a nice weekend, and All-Souls Day. (Do Episcopalians celebrate this day?)
God Bless!

RCV| 10.29.11 @ 3:02PM

We do, indeed. There is very little difference theologically or liturgically between Anglicanism and Roman Catholicism, save that little dispute over the primacy of the Bishop of Rome.

God bless, Nick, and be well.

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 1:57PM

RCV,

I figured that you did. I know there is much similar between us. But, I also know that there are differences between the so-called High Anglicans and the more, um, liberal ones, correct? I just don't know what are those differences.
Take care.

RCV| 10.30.11 @ 2:54PM

There is a wide spectrum of both theological and liturgical views within Anglicanism. Anglo-Catholics, or "High church" Anglicans favor formal liturgy, ceremonial incense, generally (though not always) oppose ordination of women and gays, and work toward full reconciliation with Rome. "Low church" Anglicans tend to oppose union with Roman Catholicism, eschew ritualistic liturgy, and see themselves as Protestants. I'm definitely an Anglo-Catholic, though theologically more liberal than most High Church Anglicans, at least English Anglicans.

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 6:30PM

Thanks for the info, RCV. Appreciate it.

RCV| 10.31.11 @ 6:55PM

One other addendum, Nick. All Anglicans agree on two things: (1) The Nicene Confession of Faith, which we share verbatim with the Roman Catholic Church; and (2) Apostolic succession, which has held true in the consecration of all Anglican bishops to this day.

Christopher| 10.29.11 @ 10:55PM

Nick and RCV,
Wasnt't the Arian heresy similar where they didn't believe in the divinity of Jesus?

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 1:49PM

Christopher,

I'm no expert in the Arian heresy, but the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia says that Arians believed that Christ was a second, inferior God; a creature made by the Father, not eternally existing. Here is an excerpt:

"Such is the genuine doctrine of Arius. Using Greek terms, it denies that the Son is of one essence, nature, or substance with God; He is not consubstantial (homoousios) with the Father, and therefore not like Him, or equal in dignity, or co-eternal, or within the real sphere of Deity."

Here's a link to the article:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01707c.htm

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 9:34PM

To the FLTHY lying Papists:

"Everyone transgressing and not abiding
in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ,
this one has the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not
bear this doctrine, do not receive him into
the house, and do not speak a greeting to
him.
For the one speaking a greeting shares
in his evil works." 2 Jn. 1:9-11.

The Word of God calls you EVIL.
You preach another gospel, and not that of Jesus Christ.
I'd be very afraid if I were you.
You have not the fear of God in you.

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 10:13PM

FILTHY lying Bigot Margie,
You are not a Christian. Stop lecturing us as if you were.

Margie| 10.31.11 @ 6:02PM

Are you saying the Scripture is untrue?
Repent, SCUMBAG.

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 8:20PM

Snakes lie. And your post, as usual is filled with blatant lies.

REPENT, SNAKE.

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 8:35PM

RCV and Nick:
Catholic lying filthy men:

READ IT AND WEEP LIARS:

"He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.

But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second Death." Rev. 21:7 & 8.

RCV| 10.29.11 @ 8:47PM

Every word I wrote is the truth, Margie, and you know it. That's why you respond with such venom.

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 9:57PM

The truth? That I'm not a Christian? I am a Christian, and have been for almost 40 years you despicable liar.

You? You are a filthy snake who rejects the Scripture, and therefore Jesus Christ.

Now, why is it that you avoid the truth of what you have said here before~ that you deny the Scriptures are the inerrant Word of God? That you proclaim against the Word of God that Homosexuality isn't sin?
That you reject the Apostle Paul's words as not being from God?

God is my judge, He knows me.
You?
You are already in Hell, it's just a matter of physical death for you, and you will be there for real after that, because you repeatedly lie and slander.

You have no fear of God in you, you despicable snake.

Repent before it's too late.

"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy."
"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing My recompense, to repay every one for what he has done.
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the Tree of Life and that they may enter the City by the Gates.
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood."
Rev. 22:11-15.

That's the Jesus I believe in, not your own created Jesus.

Filthy man.

RCV| 10.29.11 @ 10:49PM

If you don't accept that Jesus is God, Margie, you're not a Christian. That's just a fact. You don't, and you're not.

Calling other people vile names won't change that.

Read John's Gospel, Margie. Jesus is the Word. And the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And the Word became man and lived among us. Are you really that blind? Until you accept Him as God, your so-called "faith in the Bible" is meaningless. You worship a book, and yet reject Jesus's divinity. You missed the whole point of the Gospel.

I didn't create Jesus. He always was, of one being with the Father. Maybe someday, you'll come to understand this.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 1:08AM

Still avoiding the question, RCV the liar.
Explain how it is that you place yourself in judgment of another Christian when you have openly said you do not believe the Word of God is inerrant.
That you do not agree with God that Homosexuality is sin.
And that the Apostle Paul wasn't of God and you don't have to listen to his words.
Hypocrite!

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared.." 1 Tim. 4:1 & 2.

Repent, liar.

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 8:29AM

Go crawl under your rock, Bigot. Nobody wants to hear your drivel.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 10:13AM

Too bad, lying Pigot.
Pigots call the Scripture drivel.
Christians revere His Holy Words.
Your lying despicable friends here are not Christian. Liars cannot be Christian and are going to Hell unless they repent, as the Scripture says.
It's the same place slanderers go when they die.
The Scripture is the standard for Christians, and it the Word of God says so.

Concerning the Diety of Christ, the Scripture tells Christians all we need to know about Him:

"In many and various ways God spoke of old to our fathers by the Prophets; but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through whom also He created the world.

He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his Nature, upholding the universe by his Word of Power. When He had made purification for sins, He sat down at the Right Hand of the Majesty on High, having become as much superior to Angels as the Name He has obtained is more excellent than theirs." Heb. 1:1-4.

Christians reject the "Diety" that you liars have made up about the true God of the Bible.
And that's the false Diety that includes Mary as "The Mother of God."

Repent, liars.
Hell isn't a nice place.

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 12:45PM

Margie the BIGOT has spend the weekend making up a clever name, Pigot, that only she understands as part of her one person Cult. So we can call you Bigot/Pigette.
Everybody is a liar except little Margie the Bigot/Pigette.

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 2:10PM

"Then he said to Thomas: Put in your finger hither and see my hands. And bring hither the hand and put it into my side. And be not faithless, but believing. Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God."

RCV| 10.30.11 @ 2:23PM

So, once again, Margie affirms her belief that Jesus is not divine, that He is a lesser mortal being, someone created by another god to carry out some mission. This is Arianism in full bloom. Ironically, Margie often quotes from the Anglican "Book of Martyrs". But there is nary a martyr in that book who would have considered her a Christian, since she denies Jesus's divinity, the central message of the Gospel she purports to believe in.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth."

How truly John spoke when he said, "He was in the world, yet the world knew Him not." Some who profess to be Christians still do not know Him.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 4:07PM

Christians do not accept Catholic teachings, they are false.
There is no Mary Mother of God~ that is not part of the Diety of Christ, you've been had.
Repent and believe the Gospel of God, liars.
Beginning with Mk. 1:1.
Repent!
Jesus Christ is LORD, not RCV or Nick or Dan.
Jesus Christ is LORD!

RCV| 10.30.11 @ 6:26PM

He is indeed. He is God, of one being with the Father. Read John, Margie, and explain what he is saying to us, if not that. It's the essence of what Christianity is all about.

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 6:28PM

The Apostle Thomas said that Jesus Christ is God, Margie.
Was Thomas also lying?

RCV| 10.30.11 @ 7:00PM

Margie, acknowledgment that Christ is God is hardly some unique "Catholic" teaching. It's the essence of Christianity. I don't know of a single Christian, leaving aside Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses (and leaving aside the issue of whether they are "Christians" in the common understanding of that term), who doesn't acknowledge Christ as God.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 9:10PM

I love how these disgusting lying Papists who believe a false gospel are sitting in judgement over a Christian who proclaims that every Word of God proves true:

"Every Word of God proves true; He is a Shield to those who take refuge in Him." Pro. 30:5.

They preach a gospel of Apoctasy and blasphemy, one that says that MAry is the "Mother of God."
That Homosexuality is not SIN.
One that proclaims that the "Pope" is the "Vicar" of Christ. One that preaches that when taking Communion you are committing cannibalism.
And hundreds of other false and abominable teachings not in accordance with the Word of God.

Yet these liars and hypocrites see fit to CLAIM that it is I who does not believe in Christ.

Filthy liars!
Repent!

"Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Pro. 30:6

Who is going to Heaven? And who is not:

"But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life." Rev. 21:27.

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the Tree of Life and that they may enter the City by the Gates.
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood." Rev. 22:14 & 15.

Repent, liars!

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 10:19PM

Margie,
Is it a false gospel that states the divinity of Jesus, that Jesus is God?

Margie| 10.31.11 @ 6:05PM

You must be like 2 years old, you stupid little punk.
Either that or you are truly mentally ill or retarded.
Repent and believe the Gospel of God.
The Pope is a FRAUD as are you.
There is no such thing in the Bible as a Pope, nor a Vicar of Christ.
It's a lie, and you're an idiot for believing it.
Repent, liar.

Vlady| 11.1.11 @ 3:07PM

Why lookie here... My favorite little nut job. If you are Christian, holy sh*t!

ENOUGH ROPE| 10.29.11 @ 9:59PM

Please folks, may we discuss our differences with courtesy? As we treat each other here, one may wonder if that is the way we treat others in other settings.

Peace be with all of us.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 1:09AM

This isn't about "differences", sir.
This is about a blatant liar slandering me.
And there is no peace for the wicked!

ENOUGH ROPE| 10.30.11 @ 1:48AM

Conversion results less often from winning an intellectual debate; conversion occurs more often by being touched by an experience of God's grace. We members of various Judeo-Christian religions have differences about many issues, and each religion believes it is the true religion. Years of prayer, reflection, divine grace, and many group discussions may lead to a consensus of truth. In the mean time, let us keep in mind Christ's commands to love God and to love our neighbor. If we love to seek truth and to know the truth, in loving ways, then our discovery of the truth will be faster with the practice of mutual love instead of the practice of mutual invective.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 10:17AM

Who said I was trying to convert them? I am not. The Word of God is Truth. I am speaking truth to their despicable slander.
Too bad if you object.
Why is it that YOU, if you are a Christian, choose to instead of address the lying and slandering, defend the liars?
Spare me your self righteous crap.
Repent. Speak the truth. Separate yourself from the liars.
"Differences" that are not in accordance with Scripture won't get you to Heaven, just as believing the Leftist Socialist version (RCV'S) of "Love they neighbor."

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 12:47PM

Rope; You must be knew. Margie is the reisident Mullah of her one person cult. She tells everybody to repent and if you disagree with her you are a liar, punk, papist, and not pigot.

ENOUGH ROPE| 10.30.11 @ 7:16PM

Dan,
Thanks for the tip. TAS certainly is a very tolerant forum for comments. TAS and the vast majority of its commentators for this article observe the Lord's Prayer, especially the trespass part.

Vlady| 11.1.11 @ 3:10PM

Hey Dan, make sure you give some credit to me.... I started calling her Mullah Margie. She's my favorite little nutjob; crazy as hell and utterly predictable.

I can't really get into the theological give and take as I am Jewish. I will put in one good word for Margie. Occam's Tool respects her (Dr. OT), so she must have some redeeming qualities.

Actually, I will put in one more good word for her. She's not a leftist socialist.

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 8:30AM

Nobody is slandering you. Everyone just disagrees with you. You slander everyone who disagrees with you by calling them a liar.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 10:17AM

Troll. You're a blatant liar.
Repent, lowlife.
Beginning with Mk. 1:1.
Hell isn't a nice place.

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 1:36PM

Actually, you can't slander anybody in print. That would be libel, which is a written defamation.
Slander is a defamation or calumny made orally.

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 1:50PM

I still love ya', Margie.
God Bless!

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 4:13PM

Repent, Nick. You're a liar. You are in agreement with the Devil himself, and have joined yourself to the Harlot, along with the many millions who believe a lie, including the liar, RCV.

Catholicism's teachings are not in accordance with the Word of God, they are blasphemous and disgusting.
God allows those who want to be deceived, to be deceived, and you are.
Mary is not the Mother of God, Jesus Christ is LORD.
You are preaching another gospel and not that of Jesus Christ.
Repent!

"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus.." 1 Tim. 2:5.

You're an idolator, who believes the Popes and not Christ.
You've been had.
Wake up!

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 6:17PM

I still love you, Margie, no matter how many insults you throw at me. Water off a duck's back. As Christ commanded.
God Bless!

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 9:12PM

They are not insults.
They're statements of truth.
YOU are a blatant liar.
REPENT Papist scum.

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 11:20PM

It is far from the truth, and very insulting. But, nothing I can't handle.

It's too bad that you never have any answers, well, any answers that actually answer my questions and objections. I give you that courtesy, at least.
God Bless!

Margie| 10.31.11 @ 6:06PM

I never have any answers?
You disgusting little lying twerp.
Burn in Hell you lousy scumbag.

Nick| 10.31.11 @ 6:43PM

You are sharing something, Margie.
But, it is not the love of Jesus Christ.
God Bless!

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 4:15PM

"But even if we, or an Angel from Heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." Gal 1:8 & 9.

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 10:23PM

Margie,
So your cult is closer to the Muslims than Christianity since you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. The name Mullah really fits.

Margie| 10.31.11 @ 6:08PM

No, I believe in His Divinity~but I believe what the Bible says, not what your CULT says.
Got it, you fool?
There is no such thing as Mary Mother of God.
It's a blasphemy.
If you choose to go against the Word of God and insult and lie about Christians who reject your false teachings~ YOU are in big trouble with God.

Repent and believe the Gospel of God, PUNK.

RCV| 10.31.11 @ 6:29PM

If you believe in Jesus's divinity, as you now say, then do you believe that He and the Father are of one Being? Or do you believe there are two Gods?

If there is only one God, and Jesus is divine, then how can He and the Father not be one?

C Smith| 10.28.11 @ 11:50AM

Old Soldier, well said:

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 12:11PM

Jesus is Perfect. His Words are Perfect. And they are the PERFECT anti-Marxist Words to live by.

Appleby| 10.28.11 @ 12:34PM

Matthew 6
Giving to the Needy
1 “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2 “So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Prayer
5 “And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward in full. 6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

hardcard| 10.28.11 @ 8:06AM

To ows and the phony wannabes, a hearty flok you !!!!

POST American| 10.28.11 @ 8:33AM

---Setting to the side the 'predict--Abel'----

WHEN is AS going to take up the matter
of 33rd degree Freemason and Arminian
Heretic fraud and con-job, Pat Robertson,
spitting in the face of Christ uttered doctrine,
to open the door for EUGENICS X--speed-iency
greenlight to the dumping of the spouse of one's youth
should they be so rude as to contract Al;zheimer's?

--Has this sleaze ball EVER gone after such
things as the cancer laced POLIO shots?
---the Monsanto GM depop op? ----CHEM-trails
lacing our skies with Aluminum/ Barium and
Cadmium oxides? ---the GE/HAARP-esque
FUKISHIMA cover-up?

FAR more insidious than any 'Calm--you--nists'
are these capstone creep infiltrators of the
Christian establishment.

Even beyond the 'Council of Churches'
'ECK--YOU---MEN--ICK---ALLL--ism' of
the ever sinister Rockefellers---are these
crooked smiling agents of CON--troll.

REALLY KIDDIES ----even forget the
RED China TREASON OP.

-----------CLEAN OUT YOUR CHURCHES!----------

JKS| 10.28.11 @ 9:51AM

Did you just projectile vomit on the keyboard?

DTOM| 10.28.11 @ 11:35AM

JKS;

I heard a rumor that P-A has a very large cage full of typewriting monkeys and he's looking for the lost Shakespeare plays...

Dan Mathewson| 10.28.11 @ 7:38PM

To vomit or not to vomit.

cuban pete| 10.29.11 @ 10:42AM

"To be or not to be. That is the gazornenplatz...."
Bob Newhart

Rich D| 10.29.11 @ 5:25PM

My goodness, you're old! Have that on an LP?

race_to_the_bottom| 10.28.11 @ 8:49AM

These people are really out of it. Don't they realize that Jesus was for low taxes, less government, and free enterprise? Oh, and Israel too. Didn't Jesus say we should render onto Caesar that which is Caesar's. This could only have meant the 1% of his day. And wasn't he for the death penalty, not the French Revolution kind, but the Texas kind?

Why, if Billy James Hargis wasn't with Jesus at this very minute, he would certainly go down to those occupiers and straighten them out!

Old Soldier| 10.28.11 @ 8:57AM

I love it when an atheist lectures me on Christianity.

Try this libertarian rant from Samuel:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Samuel+8&version=NIV

Old Soldier| 10.28.11 @ 8:59AM

That link failed

http://www.usccb.org/bible/1samuel/1samuel8.htm

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 11:43AM

Excellent.
Sadly, Liberals (some of which are Liberal simply because they are uninformed) want a King to rule over them. They want the government telling them what they should and shouldn't do.
They believe the lie they've been taught.

Conservatives want to be left alone, to make their own choices in life, within the rule of Law.
Christians understand the above as well as want to live according to the Will of the God of the Bible.

Marxist Socialist and Communist governments that include stealing from the rich to give to the poor, (Social "Justice") have nothing to do with God, they're just using His Name to commit their crimes.

We (conservatives and Christians) want NOTHING to do with them!

Timothey L. Pennell| 10.28.11 @ 9:25AM

There are NO Religious Leftists. In fact, the ones who claim to be, are the antithesis of what CHRIST Preached.

GOVERNMENT is the Enemy of Religion. Even in the Muslim Hell Holes, Government is the Enemy. SECULAR Government is the Enemy. Only when their Religion IS the Government, do they not rise up against it.

In the beginning, the Churches in this Country, were FILLED to Capacity. We had Church Services at 7, 9, and 11 O'clock, and this was in a small town of 5,000 people, back in the 60's. We had Blue Laws, to keep the Sabbath Holy. Families spent time together. The Sunday Drive. The Sunday Dinner. The Powers of the Federal Government were FEW and FAR BETWEEN.

Now, look at us. The Federal Government is a BEHEMOUTH. It has it's tentacles in to every aspect of our lives, in an attempt to control us, from our Cradles to our Graves. It takes from one group, and gives to another, by FORCE. It relieves people of their OBLIGATIONS to Kith and Kin. It has made FATHERS, unnecessary, and turned "THE FAMILY", in to something nostalgic. Something that Norman Rockwell used to paint.

Our Government tells us what to eat. What to Allow, and what to get rid of. Our RIGHTS come from 536 Thieves, Liars, and Adulterers, in Washington D.C. They fill our Children's heads, with their Propaganda, and their Attacks on Religious Faith, and Chastity, and everything that is GOOD. They have made MARRIAGE an abomination, and Banished CHRIST, from Christmas.

Who needs GOD, anymore? Who needs the Old Messiah, when we've got a NEW ONE, in the Oval Office? "The GOVERNMENT is my Shepherd. I shall not want." I don't have to be GOOD. I can do what I want. Nobody has the right to JUDGE me. If it feels good, do it. And if I ruin my life, I can call my Representative. She'll get me FREE DIAPERS.

The Churches in America's towns and cities, sit Vacant. Where 3 Services were once given. Now they're lucky if they fill the House, with one. The Great Cathedrals of Europe, are little more than Tourist attraction, these days. Their Governments have encouraged all of the 7 Deadly Sins, and have made a mockery of the 10 Commandments, as has OUR Government.

There is definitely a RELIGION flocking to thee streets. But, it is one of MEN, not GOD. And, we have seen this before in SODOM and GAMORRAH and BABEL. It's never ended well, and it won't, this time, either.

"Forgive them, FATHER, for they have SINNED."

Indeed.

Tina B| 10.28.11 @ 9:53AM

Yes, Tim, there's a world of difference between religion and a saving relationship with our Creator, Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ.

The religion called Christianity is a huge umbrella and many people misunderstand it has various meanings to different groups.

But walking with Christ, daily, hourly, only those who know this walk fully understand. Christ wants this relationship with everyone, but everyone does not want this intimate relationship with Christ. They would rather walk in their sin.

Christ argued with the most religious in His day, the Pharisees and the Saducees. They had religion but no relationship. He wanted, as the father wants, and the Spirit wants, the intimate walk with each man and woman.

Social justice should be evident in the walk of every Christ follower, to the extent that we ourselves work to feed the poor, help the widows and orphans, and share our wealth willingly. Many of us do just this. It is not the governments job to force anyone to do this. Christ was not a Socialist nor was He a Communist.

Just a closer walk with Jesus, this is to help the poor, the widow and the orphan. And thus we live to share His Gospel.

Tina B| 10.28.11 @ 9:55AM

Yes, Tim, there's a world of difference between religion and a saving relationship with our Creator, Savior and Lord, Jesus Christ.

The religion called Christianity is a huge umbrella and many people misunderstand it has various meanings to different groups.

But walking with Christ, daily, hourly, only those who know this walk can fully understand. Christ wants this relationship with everyone, but everyone does not want this intimate relationship with Christ. They would rather walk in their sin.

Christ argued with the most religious in His day, the Pharisees and the Saducees. They had religion but no relationship. He wanted, as the Father wants, and the Spirit wants, that intimate walk with each man, woman and child.

Just a closer walk with Jesus, this is to help the poor, the widow and the orphan. And thus we live to share His Gospel.

Owen K.| 10.28.11 @ 12:33PM

Tina, you are correct. It is supposed to be an individual calling, not one of a political calling. Read my post below. This has always been a subject of interest to me. As a believer, and follower of Christ, I believe that many of our clergy today are misguided due to their own misinterpretation of what Christ was actually saying.

Dan| 10.28.11 @ 5:24PM

Tina, you sound like an honest Christian. Do you believe in the divinity of Jesus.

Tina B| 10.29.11 @ 6:47AM

Dan, I believe in one God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

This is a triune God. When Christ came out of the river Jordan, having let John baptize Him, the Holy Spirit is the one who appeared in the likeness of a dove, and the Father spoke of His beloved Son, and all three were present, and separate at one time, and I have no problem believing this.

Christ commanded the apostles and disciples to baptize men in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Yes, I believe in Christ's divinity, and have asked Him to be my Lord and Savior, and walk and talk with Him daily. God bless you, Dan, for giving me a chance to testify to this.

Am I perfect? No. Am I forgiven? Yes. Is God still working on me? Absolutely. I see it daily.

Tina B| 10.28.11 @ 9:57AM

sorry, didn't mean to post the first one till I edited it.

Al Adab| 10.28.11 @ 11:13AM

Many of the devout Tina make the mistake of confusing the Charity which is a personal obligation with state power to provide it. It becomes a way of passing the buck to a temporal authority and avoiding the need to face the personal choice. The attempt to implement Compassion through state force unfortunately means that some authority must decide who is "deserving" of charity. That is contrary to the obligation the believer has to provide without considering whether the needy deserves help or not. Charity under compulsion is no charity at all.

DTOM| 10.28.11 @ 11:40AM

Their thinking goes like this:

"When the government takes money from someone else and gives it to the poor and I agree with them, I am being "charitable" without the pain and bother of actually earning and donating any money myself. Kewl!

Yeah, just like Christ woulda done it...morons!

Tina B| 10.29.11 @ 6:55AM

I absolutely agree.

We are commanded to love our neighbor as ourself. I like to eat, wear decent clothes, have some entertainment with family and friends. I know I must help those God puts in front of me in need of help. This starts with my family, and spreads out from there.

I have been helped greatly by strangers, friends and family, when I was needy. I have seen this happen to my family and friends when I couldn't help. I saw God bring people to them who could help. I've seen it over and over.

God does provide for His children, and it is our choice to become one of His children. Those who actively refuse His love and care, should not be taking my hard earned money (and it was hard earned) to provide for themselves. That is not Christian and should not be legal, let alone mandatory!

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 11:33AM

Tina B,

That was worth the double post!
Maranatha.

Dan| 10.29.11 @ 10:58PM

Margie,
Tina B believes in the divinity of Jesus, that Jesus is God. She is a Christian.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 1:12AM

Troll. LOL.
You pull this stunt every day.
Repent, liar.
Hell isn't a nice place.
Get ready.

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 8:27AM

You are already there BIGOT.
Not a stunt, you just can't handle the truth.
Nobody cares if you are a Christian, whatever you are is your business, just stop lecturing every day as if you were a Christian. You are a phony.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 10:18AM

No, you're the fraud.
Repent.
Hell is where liars go.

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 2:13PM

Margie the Bigot, now that is an intelligent reply. You can see that everyone here who is a Christian believes in the divinity of Jesus, that Jesus is God. But you don't believe in the divinity of Jesus. So you are not a Christian, you are whatever you are, but not a Christian. And you reply is that everyone lies. Just stop pretending you are a Christain and lecturing everyone and go practice your little cult by yourself.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 4:19PM

Repent, liar.
Jesus Christ is LORD.

You are an idolator, who believes that the Pope has the truth, and you reject the Scriptures that tell us that there is ONE Mediator between God and Man, Christ Jesus.

Mary is not the "Mother of God."

Until you repent and believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ, like I do, and like millions of true Christians do, and stop falsely accusing the brethren, you are counted by God as a lying slanderer who needs to repent.

Repent and believe the Gospel of God.
Beginning with Mk. 1:1.
Liar!

PJ| 10.30.11 @ 9:24PM

I thought you might like to read Luke 1.

Dan| 10.30.11 @ 10:08PM

Bigot Margie,
You don't know what I believe, and I am not here lecturing like you. You are trying to deflect and evade. You don't believe in the divinity of Jesus, you worship a book that you don't understand. I feel sorry for you. Get help.

Ryan| 10.31.11 @ 8:43AM

Hey Margie,

I don't think that many of the above posts was trying to debate the "Mary mother of God" notion. You're injecting that statement into the conversation and then trying to debate it.

The question isn't about Mary, it's about the Divinity of Christ.

Margie| 10.31.11 @ 6:13PM

It certainly is, Ryan.
Catholicism teaches that blasphemy, and it is exactly the reason the liars here (Catholics) are on my case about me supposedly denying the Divinity of Christ.
The teaching of the Trinity, which is NOT Scriptural but brought in by a heretic, makes God a THING. And the Catholic teaching is that Mary is the Mother of this THING called "The Trinity."

I reject Catholicism's false and unbiblical teachings.
Jesus Christ is LORD.
God has no Mother.
Repent, Ryan.
And believe the Gospel of God.

Ryan| 11.1.11 @ 8:20AM

We Trinitarians do NOT believe that God is a "thing." That's putting words in our mouths. Sometimes we inadvertently - and maybe incorrectly - describe the Trinity as an object rather than a Person.

Here's a question that I wonder may help flesh out your beliefs.

What is YOUR understanding about the Trinity, and how is it Biblically wrong?

Vlady| 11.1.11 @ 3:14PM

Now, here's what I don't understand.... If Jesus is fully G-d, and Jesus is fully man, and the Bible says that Jesus was born to Mary, how can you logically say Mary is not the mother of G-d?

Jews may not believe it, but we can spot inconsistent reasoning. We are better at that than a lawyer....

Ryan| 11.2.11 @ 8:10AM

I think the problem lies in the improper elevation that the title may give to Mary.

Maybe if there were not the importance that Catholicism has given to Mary, the title would be more honorific than anything else; but elevating her as they do I think is the main problem. It's not just the title, it's everything else that has gone along with Catholicism's treatment of Mary.

Unfortunately, Margie has injected the idea as somehow central to the Trinitarian debate when it really doesn't have much to do with the idea of the Trinity at all.

Petronius| 10.28.11 @ 10:08AM

So the weenies want their personification of Christ to assume the port of Caesar and plunder the assets of the accomplished to satisfy the wants of every economically illiterate ambulatory roadkill with no sense of value. Anything else? These idiots will do anything except grow up and engage life because they refuse to compete.
And after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins,
When all men are paid for existing, and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as water will wet us, as surely as fire will burn,
The gods of the copybook headings with terror and slaughter return!

lcdlover| 10.28.11 @ 10:12AM

On Oct 23 there was a similar piece in the Boston Herald: "Religion claims its place in Occupy Wall Street". In the piece, Boston organizers described their efforts setting up a "Sacred Space" tent. Since that time Muslim groups have held "prayer sessions" at the site. I commented at the time:

It is appropriate that Occupy Boston has brought religious groups into their protest because the occupy movement has much in common with religion:
1.Both religion and the occupiers(OWS) are based on myths, erroneous information and out-and-out falsehoods. Both traffic in fuzzy subjective concepts whose squishiness allows for the debasement of rational thought.
2.Both movements are anti-science.
3.Both subject their adherents to interminable assemblages or services which serve to narcotize the user into a semi-zombie state of increased gullibility. This insensate sheep-like quality has been on display with the OWS folks with the adoption of "the human mic", a bizarre call and response ceremony where the audience repeats back the speakers words every half sentence or so. So much for thinking for yourself.
4.Like a religious organization, OWS has concentric circles of believers. On the outside perimeter are the sympathizers who pay lip service to the cause and maybe put up an internet comment or a facebook share, but they retain their rational mind. Next are the denizens of the middle circle. These are obsessed with the OWS movement and talk about it frequently. They'll show up at the site for a few hours on a sunny day and maybe bring the kids along for a brainwashing session. They have a real life to go home to however. At the inner core are the true faithful, consumed by belief. These are the ones who live at the site. These are the fundamentalists. Everything to them is seen in light of "The Movement" No aspect of life is unaffected and true believers no longer associate with outsiders, except to proselytize.
5. Another thing OWS shares with its religious brethren is their penchant for moralistic, good vs evil simplicity. The OWS zealots' holier-the-thou attitude extends to those who don't agree with their leftist share-the-wealth (someone else's wealth of course): greedy pigs.
So the mindless irrational place where religion meets leftist philosophy is perfect for our Occupy Boston friends.

DTOM| 10.28.11 @ 11:41AM

So you believe that your relatives are mostly chimps and apes, right? That's something.

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 11:44AM

"Well, I'll be a monkey's Uncle!"

Appleby| 10.28.11 @ 12:36PM

My Southern Granny used to say "What if one thing/what if another! What if a monkey was your brother?"

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 5:00PM

Ha!

DTOM| 10.28.11 @ 11:50AM

And something's better than nothing.

Do any of your relatives type? Refer to Post-American response above...

lcdlover| 10.28.11 @ 11:54AM

Hello.
If you mean, do I think evolution is a correct theory, the answer is yes. So? Do I believe religious thought is a mental disorder or at least a defect in thinking, the answer is also yes but I understand that assertion is much more controversial.
Thank you.

DTOM| 10.28.11 @ 12:57PM

lcdlover;

As long as you recognize that the evolution theory is A theory, not "THE" theory, I hold out hope for you.

So do you believe in absolute right and absolute wrong?

We're just talking here; no one is spitting, right?

lcdlover| 10.28.11 @ 1:05PM

DTOM "..do you believe in absolute right and absolute wrong?" Absolutely. I will address the other point later. (Must work)

DTOM| 10.28.11 @ 6:19PM

Looking forward to it.

lcdlover| 10.29.11 @ 1:19PM

Good Morning
The cognomen "Theory of Evolution" has been behind much confusion as if "theory" has been used in the sense of "I've got my own theory about that, let me tell you about it..." or "it is only a theory until greater levels of proof are found, then it will "graduate" to some higher designation." Dawkins puts it very muscularly :
"One thing all real scientists agree upon is the fact of evolution itself. It is a fact that we are cousins of gorillas, kangaroos, starfish, and bacteria. Evolution is as much a fact as the heat of the sun. It is not a theory, and for pity's sake, let's stop confusing the philosophically naive by calling it so. Evolution is a fact."
So when you say you hold out hope for me if I recognize that "the evolution theory is A theory, not "THE" theory", I say that, yeah, there are other theories, but evolution theory is the correct one. Sorry, but that's it. Here's a link:
http://www.naturalhistorymag.c.....-of-design

Lizard King| 10.29.11 @ 6:10PM

Any honestly applied scientific theory represents a body of material evidence that is collected in an attempt to refute a null hypothesis. Scientific theories can never be facts, only supported by such. In the case of biologic evolution as a theory in support of "common ancestry", the body of material evidence refuting its null is astounding, manifold and yet to be disproven, scientifically. While I appreciate your advocacy for the theory of biologic evolution, lcdlover, the theory itself, by convention can never be a "fact", just as no scientific theory is ever "proven", only disproven and replaced by a new theory more consistent with the material body of evidence. Not to be a bore, I happen to be an evolutionary biologist come physician and recognize the importance of precision in our use of language. Trust me, lcdlover, my frustration with our scriptural literalist, wholly scientifically illiterate brethren(aka Margie), is mutual! I would never question the sincerity of their Faith. My disdain is with their unwillingness to recognize the fundamental dichotomy 'twixt the physical and metaphysical. Experience with this mindset has revealed a virulent rejection of the real strength of the scientific method, and a complete incapacity to become even basically conversant in the conventions of science, let alone any theory that they delusionally percieve to conflict with their scriptural(any scripture) dogma. In doing so they uniformly reject ANY material evidence while slandering and condemning the scientist as un-Godly and blasphemous. Direct dialogue with such zealots is fruitless! Science by convention wisely refains from addressing the non-disprovable(metaphysical), metaphysicians(aka Margie) refrain from addressing nothing, as their Gnosis is infallible.

Vic| 10.30.11 @ 11:58AM

O yes, there would indeed be no controversy between true "science" and "dogma" if the people would only blindly accept the claims of the true "scientist" whose credibility has been blessed on high by their fellows at "peer review". We all know (aside from the little Gore-bull warming fiasco in Brittan) these peer reviews are totally unbiased in their admission of ideas and resultant conclusions. Tis a shame that so many are so blinded by their religious dogma. Even to the point of questioning the high priest of peer review, their unbiased quest for the truth notwithstanding.

Tina B| 10.29.11 @ 7:01AM

God help you in your "thinking" there, lcdlover. It is not what you think that counts. The question will be, "What did you do with My Jesus, what did you do with My Son?" and it won't be those posting on TAS who will be asking. And that could happen to you today. What will you say?

lcdlover| 10.29.11 @ 1:21PM

I will say: "Howdy! Where can I plug in my laptop?"

Nina| 10.28.11 @ 2:27PM

So to have a belief or faith in God means one can't have a belief in science? I believe that a skilled surgeon was given that skill by a "higher' power and that science is what helped his knowledge of that particular field. Science has proven there are planets in the universe....you are comparing religion to christianity..there is a difference.

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 5:02PM

Nina,

Science simply means knowledge. Honest, truthful science is in complete agreement with God. After all, He created it!

Lizard King| 10.29.11 @ 7:36PM

Honestly applied scientific theory by convention REFRAINS from addressing God. Genuine science does not deny or reject the Devine, merely avoids the non-disprovable(metaphysical). Many individual scientists are devoutly religious, Christian and otherwise. Most self-honest scientists recognize the inherent impossibility of using material evidence to explain or "know" our nameless, placeless, timeless, immaterial Creator. The unwillingness of religious primitives to embrace knowable v unknowable, mirrors their inability to recognize the intellectual equivalence of their religious dogma with the the political left's (or right's) idealogical dogma.

Margie| 10.29.11 @ 8:27PM

"Religious primitives."

LOL.

Oh, my, we have here another haughty intellectual who thinks he knows better than the Word of God!

"For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.

Ever since the creation of the world His invisible Nature, Namely, His Eternal Power and Deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made.

So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened.
Claiming to be wise, they became fools.." Rom. 1:18-22.

martin j smith| 10.28.11 @ 10:26AM

Socialism or Communism or Naziism are the actual religions. They are put into a Christian like language and so we are supposed to believe these are " religious holy people. That is the facade. The truth is they are purely political and their religion is the politics. They are neither holy or holier than thau--they are full of crap.

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 11:34AM

Love that.

Buck Ofama| 10.28.11 @ 10:41AM

Coveting is good for business.
Your neighbor gets a dildo that plays "O Come All Ye Faithful"- you want one too!

- George Carlin

PolishKnight| 10.28.11 @ 10:50AM

I saw this claim from a leftist leaning commentator on the History Channel about Wall Street. Like many lies, it's partially true. A man sees an ad that makes him feel inadequate if his neighbor has a nice car and he doesn't so he goes out and buys a car to keep up with the Joneses. So that's "coveting", right?

Not necessarily.

The command specifically was written so that a man wouldn't desire to take his neighbors' home or wife. It literally meant not coveting the actual things the neighbor has, not the ideas themselves. On the contrary, the Bible teaches by example for people to admire success and to emulate it themselves. Buying a car OF YOUR OWN isn't the same as coveting your neighbors' car.

On the other hand, the left clearly covets others' goods in the worst possible way: They openly advocate stealing or redistributing them.

Ryan| 10.28.11 @ 2:29PM

You may want to reevaluate the statement.

Ex 20: 17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 5:05PM

George Carlin was a pervert.
And PK is right.
Wanting what belongs to your neighbor is coveting.. God is saying not to covet the NEIGHBOR'S goods, etc.

In other words, get your own, bud!

Redstateboy| 10.28.11 @ 11:05AM

Has anyone read... the OWS crowd is complaining of the Homeless showing up for food!!? LO'freak'nL! oh.. and the crime?! What a bunch of morons! They're against "Corporated Greed" but not greed in general it seems.. Union greed, rich liber-ul entertainer greed, rich Democrat politician greed.. Now That! Greed..? perfectly acceptable.

Claypoole| 10.28.11 @ 12:38PM

And, did you hear, the chefs preparing the OWS food quit because they were tired of working eighteen hours a day to feed a bunch of worthless bums. Isn't that the way most taxpayers feel?

Nina| 10.28.11 @ 2:30PM

Yes, hysterical isn't it? These people who are supposed to be so much more compassionate than successful wall street entrepaneurs are complaining about feeding the homeless! And so they can weed out those fakes, they'll change the menu! Ha! Real homeless only want food, will eat from dumpsters, so go ahead and change your menu. Maybe the OWS crowd will go home!

Mike 3/505| 10.28.11 @ 11:08AM

"Buying a car OF YOUR OWN isn't the same as coveting your neighbors' car."

Hear, hear!

Regards,

Mike

Appleby| 10.28.11 @ 3:12PM

Back in the 1980s a British friend told me that the difference between Americans and Brits was that an American sees a guy driving a Ferrari and says, "I'll have a car like that one day." The Brit says, "We'll take those cars away from them some day."

Bill| 10.28.11 @ 11:57AM

What are the religious types saying to the OWS cooks who are going on "strike" because they object to having to make the dishes they make for the true homeless instead of the pretend homeless bougeoisie who make up the Occupy Wall Street contingent?

When the cooks bitch about things not being "fair," what are the holy rollers saying about keeping on working for no compensation to feed people they don't want to work to feed?

Owen K.| 10.28.11 @ 12:18PM

It is an issue that seems to be a "clarion call" to many mainstream clergy today. I think part of this belief system held by left wing activist clergy is that they believe that they are following the example of Christ who said to the rich man: "sell all you have and give it to the poor---" when asked by the rich man how he might gain eternal life. However, as is often the case, this incident with Christ and the rich man is misinterpreted by modern clergy. Christ used this example not to show that being rich is evil, but rather to illustrate the LOVE of riches over all other things. The scripture does not say that money is the root of all evil. Rather it says: "the LOVE of money is the root of all evil." The clergy seem to lose track of the difference. The problem then becomes one of the clergy looking at the whole picture through a distorted lens that omits the fact that their church bodies and their own livelihood is supported by those very "riches" that they have grown to despise.

Claypoole| 10.28.11 @ 12:48PM

Exactly, Owen. Where do these leftist clergy think we in their congregations get the money to place in the offering plate every week? Do they think we're mugging the poor and homeless on the way to worship? We work for businesses/corporations; our pensions are invested; we receive income/dividends from investments and annuities;
our savings in the banks earn interest. Without Wall Street and banks, these Marxists would be out of work and their churches would be closed.

Gary| 10.28.11 @ 12:21PM

These political religious people seem to forget that Jesus refused to enter the political arena. Odd how liberals profess their moral superiority to conservatives bases on delegating "charity" to government bureaucrats rather than what conservatives do, give more of their time and money directly to charity. The same idea applies to personal morality. Liberals don't care about whether a Bill Clinton's personal morality is bad, as long as he backs the "right" political causes. So called social morality trumps all so that if you a tree hugger or a vegan you are morally superior even if you are a cretin in your personal life. Face it, it's easier to be "good" in liberal causes than to get up day after day, work and fight to be a good and moral person in your personal life.

Citizen Jerry| 10.28.11 @ 1:00PM

Mark, you nailed it with the line "It's a utopian dream, not based on the Gospels, always monstrous when attempted, and premised more on resentment than godly generosity."

Every group and leader cited have long since abandoned the historic Christian faith as outlined in the Nicene Creed. As the "Church of What's Happening Now," they've become little more than white noise and should be ignored in any serious discussion of the Gospel.

martin j smith| 10.28.11 @ 3:12PM

During WWII Stalin kept the Russian orthodox Church under the the thumb of the state while Hitler created a a Nazi Christian Church. This group of so called religious people no matter what religion they claim to represent are purely political some are dedicated activists some"useful idiots" but that is about what they are.

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 10.30.11 @ 3:59PM

Stalin allowed the Russian Orthodox Church to make somewhat of a comeback during and after WWII. It was probably because he knew that Russian religious and nationalistic fervor would probably make Russian men more willing to die for their country than Soviet material atheism. On an interesting side note the Georgian Joseph Stalin had been an Orthodox seminarian before joining the Bolsheviks.

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 10.28.11 @ 4:06PM

I am an Orthodox Christian and strong social conservative who believes that Wall Street should be picketed. The corruption and thievery that exists among our corporate and political elite in this country cannot go and should not go unchallenged. I do not remember any passage in the Holy Bible that called for complete free market capitalism let alone this notion of free trade. Millions of Americans are out of work. It could be as high as 15% maybe even higher. The manufacturing base that used to be the backbone of the American Middle Class has been outsourced to Southeast Asia where workers make a mere fraction compared to their American counterparts. The business and political elites of this country never hesitate to shove more free trade agreements (like NAFTA, CAFTA, etc.) down our throats. I'm not an economist by any means but something is definitely rotten in this country and the foul stench seems to be coming from Wall Street and Washington DC and the capitols of the 50 states. The Fed is printing our currency's value down to nothingness while banks are foreclosing on the homes of working families and throwing people into the streets. Meanwhile its these same financial institutions that are throwing people into the streets that the Federal Government has bailed out with our money.

Something is wrong here and as a union member and a former civil service worker (who never made more than 2,700 a month) I can tell you that its not the unions and its not the civil servants. It's this damn corrupt klepto-corporatocracy and there's nothing conservative about it.

True conservatism is about keeping a balance in society and we once had that especially post WWII. There was a sort of gentlemen's agreement between business and labor and we all profited from it. That's all over now though and the elites of this country want the working man to hold the bag. All I can say is that there are some of us who aren't willing to hold the bag and we will fight tooth and nail to get our country back.

Slacker| 10.28.11 @ 6:49PM

Ready to fight tooth and nail are you? Once you start looking for enemies you find one around every corner. You sort of scare me.

With God all things r possible| 10.29.11 @ 9:44AM

@Dimitri - "True conservatism is about keeping a balance in society and we once had that especially post WWII. There was a sort of gentlemen's agreement between business and labor and we all profited from it."

Huh? True conservatism is not about balance, but about self-control, personal responsibility and opportunity, the freedom to succeed and the freedom to fail. This rested on the foundation of the Judeo-Christian ethic which was still a societal norm after World War II. The legacy of life by the Golden Rule was what you see as "balance" and a "gentleman's agreement." The spoiled brats of the Baby Boom "Me" generation have nearly fornicated it all away.

Yes, there are corrupt corporations and corrupt corporate CEOs, but at least they aren't driven by an even more corrupt desire to remake society in their own deviant image. That perverse license to steal and twist is reserved for the federal government and its massively corrupt enablers, the unions.

Someone has said, "We prosecute the man who steals the goose from the green, but not the man who steals the green from under the goose." Increasingly, the theft of both goose and green is by the actors and enablers of a bloated government hailed as god, but not the holy God of scripture. It is instead a god of the person's own making, the one tame entity that will provide all my needs while letting me do whatever I feel like doing, with no moral accountability to anyone.

Alexandr Solzhenitsyn--perhaps you may have heard of him--stated that the line between good and evil runs right down the middle of every human heart. There is evil in all corners of our society. But since you seem to absolve unions and OWSers, let me help you. The specific evils that made Russian Communism not only spectacularly evil but thoroughly banal are in full flower both in today's unions and in OWS slackers: practical atheism, coarseness (including casual profanity), covetousness, laziness, lawlessness, violence, an absence of true charity (let the homeless eat OUR food?!), sexual immorality and the rest of the acts of the flesh (Galatians chapter 5) besides.

With God all things r possible| 10.29.11 @ 3:25PM

Yet another example of corrupt unions, this time the Long Island Raid Road, which stole some $1,000,000,000 (that's a billion dollars for you math-challenged folks) from the taxpayers.

Read about it yourself: http://www.nationalreview.com/.....-botwinick

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 10.29.11 @ 5:30PM

Solzhenitsyn also warned a post Soviet Russia (circa 1994) that godless capitalism (of the type that exists in the United States) is no better than the godless communist system that the Russian people had just shaken off.

John II| 10.29.11 @ 8:34PM

Actually, he never used the term "godless capitalism." And he used the term "socialism" more than "communism" to refer generally to the dangerous and corrupt and vicious modern project of substituting the State for God.

His preferred key term for the crisis of the West, which he took to include modern Russia, was "irreligious anthropocentrism." His deepest enmity was directed toward the mindset first articulated by the Greek sophist Protagoras: "Man is the measure of all things."

You need to read With-God's superb posting a bit more carefully, Dimitri, and break the habit of thinking in one-dimensional dichotomies. It's bad for the soul.

And now back to "A Pocketful of Rye" (1985), in which Miss Marple solves the murder of a personally nasty businessman partly by cutting through the envious claptrap of anti-market Brit socialists. Joan Hickman was born to play the role of Miss Marple, may she rest in peace.

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 10.30.11 @ 3:46PM

John you need to read Solzhenitsyn's "The Russian Question at the End of the 20th Century". That is where he warned Russia about the evils of godless capitalism. That's not to say he was a socialist because he was not, but he was a Russian traditionalist and there is nothing Russian nor traditional about American style capitalism where the passions of lust and envy are used to sell every product under the sun and people are no longer people but "consumers". Solzhenitsyn rightfully saw this as much of a threat to traditional Russian society as Soviet Communism ever was. He was right too. What do people think of when they think of Russia and in particular what do non-Russian men think of when they think of Russia and the answer is the beautiful Russian women who have probably been exploited the most and suffered the most of anybody in the post Soviet Russia. That and this culture of gangsterism that would take young women and essentially sell them into slavery is the by product of American style consumer capitalism and that is exactly what Solzhenitsyn did not want to happen to his Russia.

jane | 10.28.11 @ 4:30PM

Your description of the rag tag Wall Street Occupiers is right on target! All for one and one for all is the battle cry for this mixed bag of disgruntled protesters. We all deserve freedom of speech, however, having something to say is what brings the value...

OldSeabee| 10.28.11 @ 5:58PM

Interesting comments all, but Jesus states that the 10 Commandments are ETERNAL in the Sermon on the Mount: "not one dot or one tittle will be changed until the end of all things." For all clergy to support taking from him who has to give to him who hasn't is guilty of breaking the Commandent against theft. I very much doubt that the OWS crowd and their admirers fully understand legitimate compensation clauses in the corporate executive performance contract. It is painfully obvious that the "protesters" are ignorant of life in general.

Margie| 10.28.11 @ 7:10PM

Right on.

"Think not that I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
For truly, I say to you, till Heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these Commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven." Mt. 5:17-20.

POST American| 10.28.11 @ 10:38PM

---------------------FINAL WORD-----------------------

33rd drgree Freemason, Arminian CON--artist,
and 'Christian' TELL--A--vangelist fraud,
PAT ROBERTSON, has spit in the face of
Christ uttered doctrine to open the door
into YOU-genics X--speed--iency.

AS the last of our economy is transferred
to history's --MOST-- awesomely genocidal
regime, ACROSS the Pacific ----

---------THIS CAN NOT BE TOLERATED-----------

With God all things r possible| 10.29.11 @ 11:03AM

If only this were the final word! Somehow I cannot bring myself to think so!

Dan Mathewson| 10.29.11 @ 5:04PM

You're right. PA keeps saying the final word, but then comes back and continues spewing nonsense.

k962| 10.29.11 @ 4:48AM

I don't recall Jesus asking Rome to redistribute the wealth!

martin j smith| 10.29.11 @ 8:27AM

There are some who post who do not get Crony Capitalism. What they fail to understand is the mutuality between "fat cats" and government. One would not succeed without the other. This of course includes those who take on "religious undertones" undertones of their politics.. It is very much like the Ant-iWar Movement. It exists in the closet until a Republican or Conservative has an military threat on its hands. But, when its Socialist where are they ? No where Lets look at Quakers,War Resister's League,Catholic Worker and so on. These so self-righteous people raise the voices when Bush sent troops to Iraq but when Obama sends troops or throws bombs or those other things that fly some how on their own to kill the enemy by G-D these people are silent.
So again I assert these people are political activists or useful idiots.

It is Washington that should be picketed primarily because without the governmental support--bailouts remember--the banks that fail would not be here. So you have to ask yourselves, why if Obama rails against Wall Street does he take their money will joy ? And why do corporations such as GE get away without paying taxes in the US ? Dimitri you are barking up the wrong tree--if you are really who you claim you are. You should be supporting someone who is Anti-Washington and want the voters ( that would be the people who are citizens ) to he heard
As for the OWS themselves, they are participants in Crony Capitalism themselves for then apparently have hundred of thousands of dollars in donations--they are not poor And, let us not ignore the Unions that are very well off that support them. They too are tax exempt--Why ?
So, I say lets loo thru the BS and see the truth-Its Crony Capitalism that is destroying this country. Its the government of whatever Party that promotes-its bipartisan. When grasp that you get it--Dimitri--I do not think youget or perhaps do not wish to-.

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 10.30.11 @ 3:28PM

Barking up the wrong tree? What tree is that the tree of Goldman Sachs and J.P. Morgan? I am not an OWS protester and I don't even try to pretend that I have these OWS protests figured out because I can clearly see that you don't have unified opposition to the banks with one common cause. I see a plethora of different people with different bones to pick with our financial institutions.

I work in the maritime industry and I am a trade unionist with a wife and two children. My beef with Wall Street is the millions of manufacturing jobs that have been outsourced to China, my beef with Wall Street is that they have completely fixed the game in Washington DC. It's not Republicans only taking money from Wall Street but the Democrats as well. In the last Presidential election Goldman Sachs donated as much to Obama as they did to McCain. The game is fixed and the international corporations that hold sway over Capitol Hill are not Patriotic in the least bit. They could care less about America. They were the one's who brought us NAFTA, CAFTA and membership in the WTO. They were the one's who pushed globalist free trade down our throats. They were the one's who pushed for deregulation of Wall Street and they were the one's who gambled with our money causing this financial crisis and then told us that they were too big to fail so we used taxpayer money to bail them out.

I am not for Big Big Government, but I am also opposed to monstrous corporations. We need anti-trust legislation to be enforced. If we had true capitalism in America then the government would stand up for small mom and pop shops against the corporate giants, but they don't. Why am I pro-union...that's easy because without the union I wouldn't be making enough to feed my family and pay for medical care and keep the light on and the water running. That's why I am a union member.

John II| 10.30.11 @ 8:43PM

"Why am I pro-union...that's easy because without the union I wouldn't be making enough to feed my family and pay for medical care and keep the light on and the water running. That's why I am a union member."

So! You admit it! You are pro-union because, for you, that's where the bacon is. Selfish.

I am a teacher with a wife and five children and six grandchildren, and counting. I suppose you think I should join a union of corrupt college professors so I can get the job softer than it already is, and squeeze even more tuition out of the students and their suckered parents!

But I don't. I shouldn't. And I shan't. Take your Big Labor and your Big Government and get them the hell out of my family's pocketbook--you, you, you . . . price-gouging Maritime Marxian! Eric Hoffer would scoff at such drivel. After all, envy is the only sin forbidden twice in the Decalogue.

And now back to "Sullivan's Travels" (1941), in which Joel McCrea plays a rich producer who becomes a hobo in an effort to gain some chic social consciousness--a pose brilliantly satirized by the masterly screenplay of Preston Sturges.

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 10.31.11 @ 3:02AM

I am pro-union for the sake of my children which is not selfish. Without collective bargaining I would be making around $10 p/hr with limited benefits (if any benefits at all. Now take into consideration that on a one hour trip around the San Francisco Bay on a boat owned by the company I work for the company can gross on the upwards of $10,000 for one trip. I only make $25 an hour along with two other deckhands and a captain that makes almost $40. Add benefits into the mix and at the very most the company's labor costs are $225 dollars per hour. At 10 gallons of diesel an hour that's an additional $30. Plus insurance and advertising. I would say that the company can more than afford to pay us $25 per hour and that we are definitely not price gouging especially given the fact that we are responsible for the safety of the customers.

The decision as to whether you should join a teacher's union is your decision and your business. I don't know your situation. For me the alternative to working at a union job is not economically viable.

I am not a Marxist. I am not even a socialist, but I most definitely am not a corporatist who prostrates himself before the alter of the New York Stock Exchange. It seems to me like many Americans have confused Christianity with economics almost as if the two have become one in the same and they are quick to brand anyone who doesn't share that view as a commie even if Pope Leo. I think you would be shocked to realize that there was a time when Capitalists were considered economic liberals.

As for my family and millions of other working class families across America why shouldn't we belong to labor unions. Why shouldn't we look out for the best interest of our families? Do you really think corporations are looking out for the best interests of their workers or only trying to maximize profits? You know the answer to that question. Why should my family live off peanuts and forego medical care while I am actively working to make money for the company? Ask yourself that question and you will see that I am not selfish but I believe in justice.

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 10.31.11 @ 3:05AM

What I was saying about Pope Leo XIII is that he too believed that in this industrial age that workers should have the right to organize unions for the purpose of collective bargaining with their employer. That was back in the late 19th century. Was the Pope a commie too?

John II| 10.31.11 @ 2:18PM

Actually, given the whole content of his famous encyclical Rerum novarum, we have abundant evidence of what Pope Leo XIII would think of most trade unions today, 120 years later.

We also have the evidence of the sequels to Rerum novarum: Pius XI's Quadragessimo anno (1931), in which socialism is roundly condemned, and John Paul II's Centessimus annus (1991), in which the creative energy of the market economy is roundly extolled.

None of my business, of course, but it sounds as if your REAL gripe with the tiny slice of Corporate America you're personally familiar with is that the cigar-chomping bosses of your own feckless union are in bed with the Big Business exploiters.

And now back to "On the Waterfront" (1954), in which a stevedore played by a brooding young Marlon Brando goes toe-to-toe with union mobsters.

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 10.31.11 @ 4:18PM

"On the Waterfront" is a great movie and it had to do with east coast longshoremen in the 50's and nothing to do with either of the maritime unions I belong to or their current leadership.

Once again I am not a socialist John and neither am I calling for anything like a socialist Republic, but I want anti-trust laws used to break up corporate monopolies, I want the regulations that existed for Wall Street pre-Reagan era to be reinstated. I want tariffs on foreign goods that threaten domestic manufacturing and subsidies for domestic manufacturers in industries that we have largely lost to Japan, China and the like.

I want a constitutional amendment protecting the rights of workers to organize labor unions. I want an end to the Federal Reserve and a return to a sound monetary policy based on reserves of precious metals. I want an end to NAFTA, CAFTA and our membership in the WTO. I want an end to all current free trade agreements and a return to bilateral trade. I want a policy of economic nationalism.

Now tell me am I a socialist? Where have I said that I want a redistribution of wealth, even though wealth has been redistributed over the last 30 years from the once mighty American Middle Class to the super rich. These are the people who got bailed out with nearly a trillion dollars of our money! Yet I'm the one who wants a handout? I'm the one who's a socialist?

It's easy for you to say what you think Pope Leo would say about today's unions...he's dead.

John II| 10.31.11 @ 6:27PM

Yeah--right. And I suppose you're against private ballots for union members and, above all, against right-to-work laws. Oh well, at least you admit that "On the Waterfront" is a great movie. There's still hope . . .

On the other hand, it's not at all easy for me to say what I think Pope Leo XIII would say about today's grasping, degenerate, unpatriotic unions. I had to study history and the Church's social teachings for many decades before I could finally avail myself of a probable guess.

And now back to "Viva Zapata!" (1952), in which Brando offers another of his mannered performances--this time of the fabled Mexican revolutionary corrupted by power and reduced to the lowly moral status of a union boss. John Steinbeck wrote the script.

Dimitri Aleksandrovich| 11.1.11 @ 10:02AM

Yes I am against right to work laws and other anti union laws such as Taft-Hartley. Yes I am for the Employee Free Choice Act. That's actually one of the few places where President Obama and I actually agree on something.

That is all besides the point though. The original premise of the column was to highlight the merging of the OWS movement with left leaning (mostly mainline Protestant) Churches. However I would like to highlight the fact that traditional Christian Churches who are very conservative such as the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have also never been that enthusiastic about the capitalist economic system (especially the way it stands today) or Western Liberal Democracy as it is practiced in the United States and in other Western Nations. These traditional branches of Christianity have always seen capitalism and Western Liberal Democracy as being destructive to traditional Christian societies and the old orders that protected Christendom. That's not to say that individual members of these Churches haven't taken a different stance, but people wonder why places like Ireland were to the left economically yet outlawed abortion and divorce it is because not too long ago the Republic of Ireland was a pretty good reflection of the moral and social teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.

skip| 10.31.11 @ 1:20PM

Your comments consist of emotional prattle that lack reason and experience.

The best interest for you and your family is corporations that seek to maximize the profits of their shareholders. This is proven by world history. There has been no other form of economic system in history even close.

All government, in its entirety, is paid for by taxpayers, who are consumers. Corporations do not pay any taxes, corporations only collect taxes from consumers who pay taxes as part of the cost of the goods and services produced and distributed, and pass these collected taxes to the government.

In free market capitalism, goods and services are produced and distributed in the most cost efficient manner to the satisfaction of consumers. Those goods and services produced and distributed in an inefficient manner to the dissatisfaction of consumers eventually, sooner rather than later, go bankrupt. The assets of bankrupt producers and distributors, corporations, are reallocated to other producers and distributors, who will attempt to produce and distribute goods and services with these reallocated assets in the most cost efficient manner to the satisfaction of consumers.

Unless idiot tyrants like you seek to mandate cost inefficiencies into the production and distribution of goods and services, unconstitutionally restricting the liberty of consumers to the detriment of everyone.

Why do you think Winston Churchill said:

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery",

you miserable, envious, ignorant, failure and socialist, you?

martin j smith| 10.29.11 @ 8:37AM

Short addition: Since this post is about religion lets take a glimpse at the behavior of the "picketers" of OWS. Hardly of the Bible Reading type. They abuse the law. They are in many cases instigating violence.
The talk Anti-Semitism talk. They abuse the rights of other citizens who are not bankers and they are not spontaneous they are astroturf supported financially by BIG MONEY from such as George Soros and the International Socialist Movement and Big Unions and Big Government. They are tools of Crony Capitalism. Oh and let us not forget things like a-social behavior in public such as sexual behavior, defecating and so form. These are not readers of the Bible. the are readers of Marx and Lenin.

Osamas Pajamas| 10.29.11 @ 1:13PM

THE FLEA PARTY ---- OHBUMMER'S "WALL STREET OCCUPIERS" AND OTHER OHBUMMER STREET GANGS

A couple of months ago I began referring to OhBummer as a pathological flea, inasmuch as the majority of Americans see him as a bloodsucking fraud and a dishonest propagandist.

About a week ago I bumped into a blog comment referring to the Occupy Wall Street gang as "the flea party" and I warned the author that I would STEAL his ingenious reference and use it wherever it could inflict the most damage on the enemies of the American taxpayers.

More recently still, my favorite columnist, Ann Coulter [she a Christian and myself an atheist], published a column entitled "WINGLESS, BLOODSUCKING AND PARASITIC: MEET THE FLEA PARTY!" at her anncoulterdotorg website.

Clearly, things have gotten out of hand. This prairie fire of flea-mongers is raging out of control, wherever you turn. ~:

Osamas Pajamas| 10.29.11 @ 1:14PM

It's a lot more people than just "the rich" who despise OhBummer and his rioting foot soldiers.

The Fleabaggers in OhBummer's Flea Party [Occupy Wall Street and its metastasized little cancers in other cities] are the ideological blackshirts, brownshirts, redshirts and no-shirt thugs tasked and directed in their riots by OhBummer allies Michael Moore, David Astroturf Axelrod, and Van Jones, by MoveOn.org, the SEIU, the Huffington Post, and OhBummer's former employer, ACORN --- and, naturally --- by Barak Hussein Hushpuppy Hoover OhBummer, himself --- with a cameo appearance by dopehead rugmuncher Roseanne Barr-The-Beheader.

Osamas Pajamas| 10.29.11 @ 1:15PM

Oh, the corporations! Oh, the banks! Oh, BOO HOO! Most of these demonstrators and rioters have a wind-up key sticking out of the middle of their backs with OhBummer's fingerprints all over it. He pooped all over their brains and they LOVED it, crying, "Oh! Oh! More poo, please! More poo!"

This so-called "spontaneous, leaderless civil unrest" is a White House operation, conceived in the bowels of Barak Hushpuppy OhBummer's fetid little mind --- while he sat ruminating in the bowels of the White House --- and enacted by OhBummer's chosen proxies, surrogates, cronies, and confederates.

Osamas Pajamas| 10.29.11 @ 1:15PM

OhBummer and the OhBummer Wrecking Crew have been promoting envy [mental illness] and trying to shift blame to "Greedy Wall Street" and away from themselves --- they who are what novelist Ayn Rand called "greedy for the unearned."

I advocate that the police shoot and kill every one of OhBummer's rioting troops who obstructs traffic or trespasses on private property or in any way threatens or attempts to intimidate any of their critics or their intended victims.

Yes. These are the lying, arrogant, GREEDY-FOR-THE-UNEARNED, bloodsxcking, tax-eating Democrat hoods, thugs, and gangsters. I advocate and I seek their destruction.

Osamas Pajamas| 10.29.11 @ 1:16PM

There are still approximately 120 million privately-employed nongovernment taxpayers in America today, and while this pathological flea, Barak Hushpuppy OhBummer, and his minions, are promoting street riots, I advocate that all 120 million of these privately-employed taxpayers stage a riot on the bridge of OhBummer's nose. That skunk wants race riots and class-warfare riots --- and he should get a riot that will make history.

Osamas Pajamas| 10.29.11 @ 1:17PM

$ $ $ $ $

Meanwhile, back at the hacienda.... In 2008, the top 1% of earners paid more than 38% of all Federal income taxes. Check this out at ntudotorg, "who pays income taxes."

And so to the President of the United States of America and to the so-called "99-percenters" in OhBummer's street-gang Fleabaggers who claim victimhood --- go blow smoke up your own axxes.

Osamas Pajamas| 10.29.11 @ 1:17PM

ENVY AND THE ANTI-CAPITALISTIC MENTALITY

The enemies of pure, laissez-faire capitalism --- a politico-economic model which has never been tried --- are adept at laying the shortcomings of government policy [statism] at the feet of capitalism.

And the more frequent, abject and complete the failure of these statist policies, the more urgently they demand more of the same.

But Austrian School [capitalist] economist Murray Rothbard argued that if our goal is the Benthamite "greatest good for the greatest number," then it is necessary to adopt laissez faire capitalism.

Is it true that there are unequal success rates among human beings --- and therefore unequal rewards in the free market? Sure!

My body mechanic [my doctor] and my auto mechanic both make more money than I do --- but of course I would not recommend that you hire me to remove your appendix or fix your car --- unless you're pretty much tired of living.

The market rightly rewards them better than it rewards me for their kind of work --- pero asi es la vida.

Dick Nome| 10.29.11 @ 2:19PM

A student of Marx are you??

martin j smith| 10.29.11 @ 3:05PM

Osamas pajamas needs institutionalization perhaps some one out there can help him or her or it. You know it could be a dog or cat. I hear some of them can use the internet.

John II| 10.29.11 @ 4:24PM

The so-called religious Left has always been composed almost exclusively of "emerging adults," a recently coined term of sociology for what I prefer to call "permanent adolescents."

For a number of pretty obvious reasons, the religious Left's selective use of Scripture has always tiptoed around the Letters of Paul, doubtless because so many passages in Paul nail so many of their cheap political enthusiasms: "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; when I became a man, I gave up childish ways." (1 Corinthians 13:11).

The Greek word for "child" in that passage is not the "paidion" of Christ's teaching that we must be like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matt 18:3), but rather "nepios"--a word closer in sense to English "infant" and the attendant witless babbling, a word which the Greeks used as well to mean "fool."

The religious Left, the Professor and his chic retinue, the rent-a-mob losers and whiners on the streets of (mostly blue-state) cities: they are nepioi. Permanent adolescents. The toxic byproduct of prosperity. Harbingers of a culture in steep decline. Instinctual totalitarians. It ain't pretty--and it's very dangerous.

And now back to "Only Angels Have Wings" (1939), one of the many culturally healthy flicks released in what turned out to be, ironically, the most disastrously consequential year of the late modern era, prelude to 1945, Year One of the nihilistic postmodern era.

Willy| 10.29.11 @ 5:10PM

And we wonder why the mainstream churches have been losing members for years?

nohussein| 10.29.11 @ 5:37PM

Wood shampoo the dregs.

Ontherock| 10.29.11 @ 8:25PM

With all due respect Mr. Tooley, the term "Liberal Evangelical" is an oxymoron. there is no such thing.
I don't think you know what an evangelical is.

POST American| 10.29.11 @ 11:54PM

-------------------BEYOND FINAL----------------------

PAT ROBERTSON is a front op.

PAT ROBERTSON is setting before us the first
act of full-blown, Masonic EUGENICS for
'X--speed--iency'.

PAT ROBERTSON, and his entire
Arminian tent show, has to be X--spelled.
He can join his fellow lodge members
--AL SHARPTON --BILLY GRAHAM --JESSE JACKSON
---and probably every other
'on show' 'Christian' religious figure.

IF you've been wondering WHY the church
has been a NO SHOW through 5 decades of
moral subversion and RED China-Globalist
sellout ---WONDER NO MORE.

This development can't get enough coverage.

AGAIN ----DEMAND to know WHO's running
your church ----WHOs serving as an informer
or 'perception management' operator.

MORE IMPORTANT than the economy.

------------------------REALLY---------------------------

Abu Nudnik| 10.30.11 @ 1:30PM

I like the idea of abolishing debt rating services. They should shoot all canaries in coal mines too. That should prop up the credit of bonds and ensure no poisonous gasses would kill miners.

Margie| 10.30.11 @ 9:44PM

To the liars, the slanderers, those who preach another gospel, those hypocrites who stand in judgment of those who place their trust in Jesus Christ, Who is the AMEN, the FAITHFUL and TRUE WITNESS, the BEGINNING OF THE CREATION OF GOD:

"And to the angel of the assembly in
Laodicean, write: These things says the
Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the
Beginning of the creation of God:
I know your works, that you are neither
cold nor hot. I would that you were
cold or hot.
So, because you are lukewarm, and
neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit
you out of My mouth.
Because you say, I am a rich one, and
I am made wealthy, and I have need of
nothing, and do not know that you are the
wretched one and miserable one and poor
one and the blind one and the naked one.
I advise you to buy from Me gold having
been fired by fire, that you may be
rich; and white garments, that you may be
clothed, and your shame and nakedness
may not appear. And anoint your eyes with
eye salve, that you may see.
I, as many “as I love, I rebuke and I
chasten.” Be zealous, then, and repent.
Prov. 3:12

Nick| 10.30.11 @ 11:27PM

Margie,

That is actually Saint John's vision, from the book of Revelation, chapter 3, verses 14 through 19.

Margie| 10.31.11 @ 6:18PM

Yes, it was a typo.
Repent, Nick. And believe the Gospel of God.
Beginning with Mk. 1:1.
What say you, Nick the believer of false doctrine, of blasphemy that teaches Mary as Mother of God, prayer to the dead, worship of a Pope, and many other false and unbiblical teachings~ who calls the murdered MArtyrs heretics along with their murderous Papists who killed them~ what say you to the above where God says that Jesus is the "Beginning of the Creation of God?"

Nick| 10.31.11 @ 7:39PM

You should begin with John 6, Margie.
Were Christ said that His "Flesh was food indeed, and [His] Blood was drink indeed."
And then, some of His disciples refused to believe Him, beginning with Judas. And these same faithless disciples left Him, and did not follow Him anymore.

Do you believe Christ's teaching about His Body and Blood, Margie?
God Bless!

Nick| 10.31.11 @ 7:48PM

" worship of a Pope"

I have told you many times that Catholics do not "worship" the Pope. Yet, you keep spreading this falsehood.

Since you have been informed that this is not true, and you keep asserting this falsehood, you could be rightfully accused of spreading lies about what Catholics believe. And, we all know what God thinks of liars, right Margie?

Please, don't put your immortal soul in danger of eternal damnation. I plead of you, abjure these errors.
God Bless!

Vlady| 11.1.11 @ 3:21PM

Just tell Margie you love her and G-d bless her. It really winds her up the wall.