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Special Report
Death of a Dictator
The U.S. helped topple the tyrant of Tripoli, but is it any closer to understanding what is going on in North Africa and the Middle East?
Did he jump or was he pushed? We do not know whether Moammar Gaddafi, supreme guide of the Great Socialist People’s Libyan Arab Jamahiriyah for 41 years and embattled Tripolitan strongman during six months of civil war, died with a gun in his hands or was killed after being wounded and captured by troops answering to the country’s National Transition Council. They had been fighting for weeks in Sirte (his home town) where his loyalists made their last stand.
Either way, he perished by the sword, as befits a tyrant. What were his last thoughts? Did his career appear to him…
full of sound and fury, told by an idiot, signifying nothing…?
It is worth considering if there was anything in his mind approaching the notions that went through the mind of English literature’s most famous tyrant before Macduff’s righteous sword cut him down. The reason it is worth considering is that if there is one thing that we ought to know about the civil strife that has beset the Arab societies of North Africa and the Middle East for nearly a year, it is that we have viewed it almost exclusively through Western eyes.
Our policy leaders, if not the rest of us necessarily, certainly ought to do just that: their first responsibility, after all, is to ask what dangers and opportunities these events represent for the Western nations. In this sense, therefore, it is quite right to ask whether the winners among the multitude of parties (one report mentioned a hundred) that are competing in Sunday’s election in Tunisia (where the “Arab Spring” began) are “democrats” or “islamists” or variations of these, and whether they want to do business with us in a way that works for us as well as them. This is incomparably more important than whether the elections are “free and fair,” by whatever standards some boondoggling busybodies in or out of government want to apply.
Elections come and go, what matters to us is who is in charge and what their intentions are. Here we are ten years into our neocolonial venture into the Arabo-Muslim world, and we have spilled blood and spent treasures for what? To see Christianity, such as it was, totally eradicated in Afghanistan, with Iraq soon to follow and Egypt as well, incredible as this sounds. But it is not incredible. What remains of Lebanese Christianity, or Syrian? And how is it that the Iraqi government that exists only because we have protected it manages to be ambivalent in its attitude toward the turmoil in Syria — does this government not realize that the entire civilized world is aghast at the brutality with which the Alewi-dominated regime of Bashar al-Assad is repressing its opponents?
However, this is what viewing events through Western eyes will do that to you. We assume too readily that the authorities in Kabul or Bagdad care what the civilized world thinks. They care to the degree that it gives them some sense on how to deal with us.
Is it likely that Moammar Gaddafi, who overthrew King Idris to establish his regime, thought like Macbeth when he had the king of Scotland murdered? Did he worry that the horrid deed would drown the wind with tears? Tyranny for Gaddafi was not a moral problem any more than murder. Macduff’s outburst, “We’ll have thee as our rarer monsters are, painted upon a pole, and underwrit, Here may you see the tyrant,” might scare him — it did scare him, and he murdered political opponents by the thousands, forced thousands more into European and American emigration. But it did not affect him the way it did Macbeth, whose feelings of guilt contribute to his undoing. Shakespeare did not underestimate political power; on the contrary, the crimes or political crises in his plays are resolved by political means and military force, or the police power of the state. However, his dramas take place against a moral or political background that is readily intelligible to his audience, which expects to see guilt, or contrition, or at least rationalization in his protagonists.
It is not at all clear that non-Western tyrants (let us be nice and not single out the Arabs) see any reason for such sentiments. We have been engaging in “nation-building” efforts a key component of which is to transfer to these distant lands the political habits and individual moral outlooks that we take for granted. We expect them to want to be, if only hypocritically, decent personally if they are going to set up decent political regimes.
The Arabs (and others) always understood this to be a major Western weakness. That is why, among other things, they use the language of Western progressivism in their PR. They are for “socialism” — jamahiriyah means “people’s state,” as in “people’s democracy” in Stalinist Eastern Europe — they participate in human rights panels and committees at the UN, they denounce “colonialism” and “imperialism” and support one another’s “liberation movements,” when they are far away.
Democratic forces and human rights movements did not scare Arab tyrannies. They repressed them, co-opted them, ignored them, depending on what was most cost-effective, or what pleased the whims of the ruling cliques. These forces and movements, such as they were and are, always appealed for support in the West, rarely obtained it. It is not surprising the strongmen should feel invulnerable.
Tormented by his own evil, paranoid, Macbeth falls back on the desperate idea, obtained from the witches, that he is indestructible because the forces needed to overcome him have not, or cannot be, mobilized. In this Shakespeare understood a central factor in the psychology of tyrants applicable to all times and places. But there were mobilizations in many Arab countries in the past year. We had nothing to do with them, as best anyone knows, and it is not at all certain they will have anything to do with us in the spring’s aftermath.
Did Gaddafi have a final insight when they cornered him and did it move him, the old soldier — a graduate of Sandhurst, no less — to one last fight?
I will not yield
To kiss the ground before young Malcolm’s feet
And to be baited with the rabble’s curse.
Though Birnan Wood be come to Dunsinane,
And thou opposed, being of no woman born,
Yet I will try the last. Before my body
And damned be him that first cries, “Hold, enough!”
The Arab tyrants of Gaddafi’s generation explained their deeds and their regimes with a mixture of references to Islam when it suited them, to a golden age that may have existed once, to anti-colonial struggles they turned into founding myths, even if — especially if — they participated in the often violent displacement of the founders. This official front worked for decades. The Arab revolt of the past months tore it down. Zine Ben Ali gave up, slunked out of Tunisia for a quiet exile in Riyadh. Hosni Mubarak gave up, perhaps demoralized as his own old Army comrades abandoned him. Gaddafi chose to fight and die. Can the revolt now restore some degree of normality to these lands scorched by bitterness?
Hail, King! For so thou art. [Macduff says to Malcolm] Behold where stands
The usurper’s cursed head. The time is free.
Would that we knew how to help them use the time they have paid dearly for. But if we do not, perhaps the best we can do is stand aside.
About the Author
Roger Kaplan, a Washington-based writer, covers the Middle East and Africa (and tennis) for The American Spectator.
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John786| 10.21.11 @ 7:14AM
The Arab spring is a complex phenomena. Played out differently and no doubt with different trajectories in the different states. The west has medelled in quite profound ways in this region for the last few centuries. My sense of the of the Arab spring is that it represents the first steps in a truly post clonial ME. If played out correctly everybody can be a winner. Here's wishing well to all the Arab people.
Jack in Wi.| 10.21.11 @ 9:37AM
Everything we have done in the Middle East has turned out bad from putting Israel on the map and the Shah back on his throne. We have spent trillions and have made the region, once a backwater into a radical Muslim stronghold. Lets get the hell out and stay out, as Ronald Reagan sugggested. It is their problems let these people then solve these problems themselves. It is time to get back to our founders. " Peace, trade, and fiendship for all, but we mind our own business. "
Tina B| 10.21.11 @ 10:00AM
J in W
Putting Israel on the MAP? What are you talking about? do you even know? do you have a clue?
Israel was "on the map" long before America was a gleam in God's eye. Ronald Reagan was a total Israel supporter and the start of the Republican Party's support as well. Israel is also one of the best examples of Democracy in the world, and the source of many wonderful innovations in technology and numerous other fields vital to our world today. Read about Israel, A-hole . . .wake up and come out of your Liberal coma.
And the whole "peace, trade and friendship for all," how's that working out for you out on the planet you're living on? I don't see a lot of that in my school, neighborhood, state, country, planet Earth, and that's all I know.
I see love, forgiveness and mercy doled out in mighty small measure among non-believers (speaking of belief in the One, True God) and sometimes even among His followers. I am thinking especially of the "churches" that protest military funerals and their ilk. Those who spew hatred for sinners who don't sin like THEY do and others whose "gift" of judgementalism seems to supercede God's.
Mind our own business? And where do you draw THAT particular line, without God?
Paul Kotik | 10.21.11 @ 10:42AM
Jack is am imbecile. Or maybe he's twelve years old. Best ignored. You're as if replying to a mynah bird.
vtwin| 10.21.11 @ 11:07AM
Without the continue and costly financial and military support provided by the tax payers of the United States Israel would end up off “the map.”
Con Chef (NB) | 10.21.11 @ 11:51AM
I'd bet that'd make your commie tuchus just ecstatic, wouldn't it? Typical leftist Jew hater.
Jack in Wi.| 10.21.11 @ 5:49PM
I would love to see the racist, theocracy of Israel vanish from the map and be replaced with a true democracy of all peoples with equal rights for all Jew, Muslim, and Christian.
The Book of Leviticus tells both Muslims and Jews to treat the aliens among them as they do themselves. It also tells them to love their neighbors as themselves. It is time to get with God's program for the Middle East. The Holyland belongs to the whole world, not just a small group of squabbling Jewish sects. Peace and justice for all, Shalom.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:13PM
Screwhead Jack--- one, that will not happen because people like you would sit back and let the Jews be massacred, and 2) before that happens, the Israelis will use nukes.
You vile Nazi vermin.
Jack in Wi.| 10.21.11 @ 11:15PM
The only people threatening genocide on this site are racists like you Occam. I believe in peace and justice for all people. The muslims could have murdered their Jewish subjects anytime they wanted for 1200 years but didn't. In fact they used and needed you for various valuble tasks. There is absolutly no reason why Jews can't be valuble and useful people in the neighborhood again. They just have to try. Can you really want this state of endless war to continue forever?
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 9:17AM
Jack, if you'd read a little history, your head would spin at the countless number of pogroms and anti-Jewish riots throughout the Middle East under Muslim rule, not to mention the forcible expulsion of Jews and the confiscation of their property in almost every Muslim country after the founding of Israel in 1948.
The brief flowering of Muslim toleration of Christians and Jews in Analusia was the exception to a long history of slaughter of "infidels" by Muslims, which is hardly surprising given Mohammed's scurrilous remarks about Jews in the Qu'ran.
Mike D.| 10.22.11 @ 9:37AM
RCV, Welcome my friend to jackboots history of the world for Jew haters. Jack's use of Shalom is his new whitewashing program called "middle eastern man of peace" campaign(insert claim to his many Jewish friends here)
Clint| 10.22.11 @ 12:34PM
Uh Oh !
It's The Obama Israel Firster RCV & His Israel Firster RINO-CINO Buddies Coalition.
Occam's Tool| 10.23.11 @ 11:14PM
Clint, before you type, wipe the semen off your hands first. Really, are you trying to outdo Messalina with your Jihadist Johns?
Occam's Tool| 10.23.11 @ 11:13PM
I'm happy with a state of endless war so long as my people are free, Jack. You are the onwe who welcomes oppression and cruelty and murder, you vile piece of filth.
By the way, folks, here's why I DIDN'T want us to get involved in Libya:
"...more radical plans to introduce Islamic law than expected as he declared the official liberation of the country.
Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, the chairman of the National Transitional Council and de fact president, had already declared that Libyan laws in future would have Sharia, the Islamic code, as its “basic source”.
But that formulation can be interpreted in many ways — it was also the basis of Egypt’s largely secular constitution under President Hosni Mubarak, and remains so after his fall.
Mr Abdul-Jalil went further, specifically lifting immediately, by decree, one law from Col. Gaddafi’s era that he said was in conflict with Sharia — that banning polygamy.
In a blow to those who hoped to see Libya’s economy integrate further into the western world, he announced that in future bank regulations would ban the charging of interest, in line with Sharia. “Interest creates disease and hatred among people,” he said.
Gulf states like the United Arab Emirates, and other Muslim countries, have pioneered the development of Sharia-compliant banks which charge fees rather than interest for loans but they normally run alongside western-style banks.
In the first instance, interest on low-value loans would be waived altogether, he said.
Libya is already the most conservative state in north Africa, banning the sale of alcohol. Mr Abdul-Jalil’s decision — made in advance of the introduction of any democratic process — will please the Islamists who have played a strong role in opposition to Col Gaddafi’s rule and in the uprising but worry the many young liberal Libyans who, while usually observant Muslims, take their political cues from the West."
From the Telegraph, as quoted in Weasel Zippers
John| 10.24.11 @ 10:54PM
"I'm happy with a state of endless war so long as my people are free, Jack"
Occam: You finally admit your "people" are the Israelis., not America.
Mike D.| 10.22.11 @ 10:02AM
Now here we have another example of the Historical retard jackboot is and how twisting of history and fact play into somebodies nutjob Conspiracies. The Book of Levitcus was written BEFORE the birth of the Muslim faith, some date it to the Josephus era of about 80AD(some date it to Moses era). So therefore the Book of Leviticus couldn't say anything about Muslims because Islam wasn't even around when it was written(having been founded centuries later)
Cpm| 10.22.11 @ 1:01PM
If you would bother to check, all Israelis, Jew, Muslim, and Christian, have the same rights. No arab in the Middle East has as many rights as an Israeli arab.
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 4:02PM
Israel is the ONLY state in the Middle East where people of all faiths -- Muslims, Jews, Christians and Ba'hais alike -- can worship freely and openly.
Kingofthenet| 10.22.11 @ 4:28PM
Israel is the ONLY state in the Middle East that has separate License Plates based on Ethnicity.
Doctor Right| 10.21.11 @ 2:30PM
Jack NEVER misses an opportunity to mention how much he hates Israel and the Jews...
The problem for Jack is that he's too dense to even notice his own subliminal prejudices.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:26PM
Con Chef, Dr Right: gosh, you guys are wondeful. I sound like Eddie Haskell, but I mean every word. G-d Bless.
Moe Blotz| 10.22.11 @ 10:12AM
Jack probably gets along really well with Clint, his fellow Paul-bot (1,2,3or4?). I am surprised the latter is not lambasting you RINO CINO Israel Firsters in this session.
Clint| 10.22.11 @ 12:29PM
You Are An Israel Firster Buffoon, Blotzo.
Do Your Homework.
Dr.Ron Paul,
“Unlike this President, I do not believe it is our place to dictate how
Israel runs her affairs. There can only be peace in the region if those
sides work out their differences among one another. We should respect
Israel’s sovereignty and not try to dictate her policy from Washington.
“The President also defended his unconstitutional intervention in Libya,
authorized not by the United States Congress but by the United Nations,
and announced new plans to pressure Syria and force the leader of that
country to step down.
“Our military is already dangerously extended, and this administration
wants to expand our involvement. When will our bombing in Libya end? Is
President Obama seriously considering military action against Syria? We
are facing $2 trillion dollar deficits, and the American taxpayer cannot
afford any of it."
The Tea Party Rebellion Steps On Blotzo.
Mike Hawk| 10.23.11 @ 7:52PM
You sir, are an anti-Semetic jihadi hugging jerk.
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 4:05PM
"Subliminal" my ass! Jack has openly expressed his deep admiration for Father Coughlin, one of the most notorious anti-Semites this country has ever produced. He's an overt Jew-hater.
John| 10.24.11 @ 11:01PM
RCV
Reverend Wright is worse than Father Coughlin. Wright hates Americans and Jews. Yet Obama sat in his church for 20 years, had his children baptized by Wright, but can't remember his sermons. According to your logic Obama is an anti-semite.
Jack in Wi.| 10.21.11 @ 5:37PM
The whole Kingdom of David and Solomon which you crackpots hope to rebuild lasted just 80 years. There never was any kingdom called Israel except the the area of the 10 northern tribes which vanished 2700 years ago. The USA put Israel on the map and keeps it there. Without Western support it wouldn't last 3 years. After 63 years on America's teat let Israel support itself. We have gone broke wasting trillions on Middle East wars and Middle East oil.
Mike D.| 10.21.11 @ 8:35PM
"There never was any kingdom called Israel "
It wasn't called the Kingdom of David and Saul Asshole, Saul and David were Kings of the Kindom of Isreal.
In 722 BC, nearly twenty years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern Kingdom of Israel, Samaria, was finally taken by Sargon II after a three year siege started by Shalmaneser V.
The websites #1 historical retard strikes again. Again I say Jew hater, do you EVER read the bilge you throw out and type? Seriously, EVER?
Where do you get your bilge, Jewwatch.com?
Then again you wouldn't be up much on Jewish/Isreali History would you.
Your Describing ONE house of the Kingdom of Isreal the House of David. Yes Asshole there was a Kingdom of Isreal that fell to the Assyrian empire in and around 722BC
Here are the Houses of the Rulers of the Kingdom of Isreal
The House of Saul
1011-1010 1050-1010 1050-1010 Saul שאול המלך or Sha'ul Reigned in Israel & Judah for 40 years: He killed himself during the war with the Philistines in Mount Gilboa.
1010-1008 1000-998 1010-1008 Ish-bosheth (also called Eshba'al or Ashba'al or Ishbaal) Reigned in Israel for 2 years.
The House of David
1000-692 1010-970 David David ben Yeshai Reigned in Israel & Judah for 33 years in Jerusalem and 7 years in Hebron, 40 years in total. Death: natural causes.
962-922 970-931 Solomon Shlomo ben David
Reigned in Israel & Judah for 33 years in Jerusalem and 7 years in Hebron, 40 years in total. Death: natural causes.
The House of Jeroboam
922-901 931-910 931-909 Jeroboam 1 Yerav'am ben Nevat Reigned in Israel for 22 years. Death: natural causes.
901-900 910-909 909-908 Nadab Nadav ben Yerav'am Reigned in Israel for 2 years. Death: Killed by Bassha, son of Ahijah of the house of Issachar, along with his whole family.
The House of Baasha
900-877 909-886 908-885 Baasha Ba'asha ben Achiyah Reigned over Israel in Tizrah for 24 years. Death: natural causes.
877-876 886-885 885-884 Elah Elah ben Ba'asha Reigned over Israel in Tizrah for 2 years. Death: Zimri, one of his officials, got him drunk and killed him at his house in Azra.
The House of Zimri
876 885 884 Zimri Zimri Reigned over Israel in Tizrah for 7 days. Death: He set his palace on fire when Omri and all the Israelites with him withdrew from Gebbethon and laid seige to Tizrah.
The House of Omri
876-869 885-874 884-873 Omri Omri Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 12 years. Death: Natural causes.
869-850 874-853 873-852 Ahab Ah'av ben Omri Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 22 years. Death: Shot by an archer during the battle at Ramoth Gilead. He died upon his arrival on Samaria.
850-849 853-852 852-851 Ahaziah Ahaziyahu ben Ah'av Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 2 years. Death: He fell through the lattice of his upper room and injured himself. Elijah the prophet told him he would never leave his bed and would die on it.
849-842 852-841 851-842 Joram Yehoram ben Ah'av Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 11 years. Death: Killed by Jehu, the next king of Israel.
The House of Jehu
842-815 841-814 842-815 Jehu Yehu ben Nimshi Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 28 years. Death: natural casues.
815-801 814-798 819-804 Jehoahaz Yeho'ahaz ben Yehu Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 17 years. Death: natural casues.
801-786 798-782 805-790 Jehoash (Joash) Yeho'ash ben Yeho'ahaz Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 16 years. Death: natural casues.
786-746 782-753 790-750 Jeroboam II Yerav'am ben Yeho'ash Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 41 years. Death: natural casues.
746 753 750-749 Zachariah Zakharyah ben Yerav'am Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 6 months. Death: Shallum son of Jabesh killed him in front of the people and succeeded as king.
The House of Shallum
745 752 749 Shallum Shallum ben Yavesh Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 1 month. Death: Menahem son of Gadi attacked Shallum and killed him.
The House of Menahem
745-738 752-742 749-738 Menahem Menahem ben Gadi Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 10 years. Death: natural causes.
738-737 742-740 738-736 Pekahiah Pekahyah ben Menahem Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 2 years. Death: Pekah son of Remaliah, one of the chief officers, took 50 men with him and assassinated the king in his palace at Samaria.
The last House of Israel
737-732 740-732 736-732 Pekah Pekah ben Remalyahu Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 20 years. Death: Hoshea son of Elah conspired against him and killed him.
732-722 732-722 732-722 Hoshea Hoshe'a ben Elah Reigned over Israel in Samaria for 9 years. Death: King Shalmanser attacked and captured Samaria. He charged Hoshea with treason and put him in prison. He then exiled the Israelites to Assyria.
In 722 BC, nearly twenty years after the initial deportations, the ruling city of the Northern KINGDOM OF ISREAL, Samaria, was finally taken by the Assyrian king Sargon II after a three year siege started by Shalmaneser V.
The Southern Kingdom of Judah fell to the Babylonians in 586BC.
Shalom, Idiot.
Mike D.| 10.21.11 @ 9:04PM
The history of the Jews in the land of Israel can be traced from the first appearance of the name "Israel" in the historic record, an Egyptian inscription of c.1200 BCE where it refers to an ethnic group apparently located in the northern part of the central highlands between the Mediterranean and the Jordan valley and south of Mount Carmel; the term "land of Israel" is found in the Hebrew bible, in texts dating from the Exilic period at the earliest, and referring there to an unclearly defined territory stretching over much of the southern Levant. Between these two widely-separated periods two kingdoms occupied the highland zone, the kingdom of Israel in the north and, somewhat later to emerge, the kingdom of Judah in the south: Israel was destroyed c.722 BCE, and Judah in 586 BCE.
Jewish identity emerged in the post-586 BCE Exilic and post-Exilic period, and by the Hellenistic period (after 332 BCE) the Jews had become a self-consciously separate community based in Jerusalem. For a time in the 2nd century BCE the Jews succeeded in creating a nominally independent kingdom covering much of the biblical "Land of Israel", but by the end of the 1st century BCE this was absorbed into the Roman empire. A series of revolts against the Romans led to the forced dispersal of much of the Jewish population
Jack in Wi.| 10.21.11 @ 11:07PM
Baloney Mike D: Abraham was an Iraqi who fathered both the Jews and the Arabs. Joseph was an Egyptian married to an Egyptian and he was mumified. Moses was a Egyptian, married to an Arab. Jesus, Solomon and Jesus were decended from a Cannanite prostitutie named Rehab. Samson liked Philistine girls. David and Solomon had huge harems from all over the neighborhood. The 10 lost tribes were not lost but just absorbed in the neighborhoods surrounding Semitic tribes. Ruth was a Moabite. Herod the Great rebuilder of the Temple and builder of the Wailing Wall was decended from Arabs. There were always many different peoples living in the area. Phonecians, Cannanites, Philistines, Arabs, Egyptians, Babalonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Assyrians, Syrians, Armenians. etc.
To say that you have any title at all is laughable. Most European Jews were decended from Asiatic converts to your religion. Your only on the map because venal English and American policians like Churchill and Truman took huge bribes to push the deal. The founders of Israel were divided between Fascists, Communists and Socialists. The vast majority were atheists. If God wanted Israel rebuilt, why didn't He give it too all those pious Jews who went the the synagogue and kept kosher all those centuries?
The ancestors of the Palistinians have been there for 5000 years, continuously. Almost all have some Jewish ancestors. They lived in peace with their neighbors for hundreds of years. They had never done anything to the Jews. Why the hell should they be so abused for only wanting a little of their property back? What I like about you Zionists is that you have no concience. You blame the victim, just like Hitler blamed you.
I am here to push for a just peace in the Middle East. That can only come when the Jews recognize that the Palistinains are just as good as they are, and deserve to be treated like human beings. Many Jewish people have left Israel in disgust because of the injustice and hate. Many who have stayed don't like it either and want a real lasting peace. I pray for peace in the Middle East everyday. Shalom.
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 9:20AM
You are a disgusting antiSemite, Jack. Truly, truly despicable. It makes me retch to even hear the word "shalom" uttered by you.
Clint| 10.22.11 @ 12:39PM
Obama LawBoy , RCV Plays His Dog Eared Anti-Semite Card.
We Heard, Obama LawBoy RCV Is Gonna Vote For Field Marshall Obama Again.
Mike D.| 10.22.11 @ 9:30AM
I address the Kingdom of Isreal specifically, and of course we get jackboot's history of the world according to Jewwatch. Who would have thought it. I'll make this short and sweet so you can get it peabrain. Isreal isn't going anywhere, not now, not for the foreseable future. Isreal has title because they are strong enough to hold and keep it. Thats how history works. I can delegitimize every country on earth with your logic.
"If God wanted Israel rebuilt, why didn't He give it too all those pious Jews who went the the synagogue and kept kosher all those centuries"
I know your in tune with God himself and he obviously confides his plans for mankind to YOU, one of his most useful prophets(your use of "get with Gods plan" is getting really tiring but is illustrative as to your self-dellusional self-important mindset), so heres what i can tell you. If you have a problem with God's plan for Isreal(and you do apparently) Take it up with him, your openly questioning him, NOT me. I don't speak for God idiot nor do I question or confide in him, nor as you do I claim to know "what his plans are" as you seem to apparently do.
You, Arafat, the UN, the AMIN AL-HUSSEINI loving Muslim fanatics whom you admire are in for a disappointment. Isreal is here to stay. Recognition for the existence of the state of Isreal comes with any peace.
Allahu Akbar Jihadist.
Nick| 10.22.11 @ 1:10PM
Jackboot in WI,
"Your [sic] only on the map because venal English and American policians like Churchill and Truman took huge bribes to push the deal."
Your history is as twisted as your defense of Hitler.
If Truman took "huge bribes" why did Congress have to pass a law to give former presidents a pension? Because Harry was broke, that's why. He had to cut his own lawn.
Churchill came from money, brainiac. Your knowledge of history would increase a hundred-fold if you would just start watching the History Channel and the Military Channel, Jackboot.
Conspiracy nuts are the same, around the world, no matter what conspiracy they happen to be duped into believing.
Personally, I believe all conspiracy theories are invented by Reynolds Wrap so they can cash-in on all of those tin-foil hat dollars.
That's right, the world is by Big Tin-Foil!
Jack in Wi.| 10.22.11 @ 11:48PM
Harry Truman held out for and got 2 million dollars in a satchel, for giving Israel the thumbs up. He used the money [ a huge amount in 1948, like 30 million today ] for his campaign and won re-election. The whole State Dept, Defense Dept, and our intelligence agencies were against it, for good reasons. We see the result of this treachery, 63 years of a mess, and trillions lost for the USA. Now how much of this money got stuck in Harry's safe deposit box I don't know. I need all I need to know about Harry when I saw that he exempted his autobiography from the punishing tax rates paid by the rest of us, at the time. He claimed it was justified because he did it for General Eisenhower as well. The story about Harry and his bag of cash comes from Gore Vidal, who got it from his friend JFK. JFK wanted Israel's Nuclear program inspected like Iran's is today. He was absolutley opposed to Israel ever getting nuclear weapons, over his dead body.
Now Churchhill was a notorious Zionist, on the payroll of Bernard Baruch. He has a very expensive and lavish lifestyle that kept him near bankruptcy, most of his career. Bernie bailed him out on several occasions. Chuchill was the Colonial Secretary just after the 1st World War. It was his job to make sure that the new British Mandate in Palistine was run the way Bernie and his pals wanted. A Jew, Lord Samuels, was appointed to run the new colony. Of course this enraged the Arabs who saw their country being stolen from them, under their very eyes.
Now Israel exists and has hundreds of atomic weapons. It would be impossible to destroy without many millions of people dying. That hasn't stopped Israel from, being rightfully, the most hated nation in the world. I know many sane Jews who want a just peace. My only hope is that some day these people prevail over the lunatics who want nothing but endless war. Peace is the only answer that I as a Christian can abide. If being for an honest and just peace means I get called a lot of vile names, so be it. Shalom
Nick| 10.23.11 @ 12:30AM
" Now how much of this money got stuck in Harry's safe deposit box I don't know."
You don't know anything, Jackboot, because you are a whack-job conspiracy nut.
" The story about Harry and his bag of cash comes from Gore Vidal [...]."
Gore Vidal ? Really?
The same limp-wrist liberal that William F. Buckley threatened to pummel on national T.V.? The same Mr. Buckley with whom you claim to have had dinner on several occasions?
Gore Vidal said it.
It must be true then. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha!
Jack in Wi.| 10.23.11 @ 12:12AM
Nick you are a liar. I have never defended Hitler or his crimes. I have a degree in history and have read hundreds of books, and many thousands of articles, on the Holocaust and 20th century history. I lived in a heavily Jewish neighborhood for many years and there were several book stores that had many books on the subject. I got intrested and read about it. Most of the books I read were by Jewish authors. I have, probably, more then a dozen books about Churchill in my basement, that I have read and remember, including at least 6 by him. The story about Churchill and how he got bailed out by Baruch and all the rest of it is well known history. Read a little bit instead of watching that tripe on the History Channel. The only good shows on that channel are Swamp People and Pawn Stars.
I have never advocated anything, but peace in my writings here. You claim to be a Catholic Christian, yet back endless war." Blessed are the peacemakers. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword. The truth will set you free. " Shalom.
Nick| 10.23.11 @ 12:23AM
I find it hard to believe that you have read anything, Jackboot.
You can even write grammatically half of the time.
Jack in Wi.| 10.21.11 @ 5:40PM
Ronald Reagan pulled out of Lebanon and advised in his memoirs to stay out of the Middle East and it's irrational politics. Reagan was right. Lets get the hell out and stay out.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:14PM
Well, you should follow his advice and stop commenting on it, Jack.
Jack in Wi.| 10.21.11 @ 10:34PM
I will stop commenting on it when you the hell quit trying to run the foreign policy of this couintry and keep your stinking paws out of the americcan taxpayers pockets. You want your Israeli fantasy. Pay for it yourself with your own blood and money.
Occam's Tool| 10.23.11 @ 11:17PM
"American." Like me. Learn to spell, you mangy baby murderer supporter.
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 9:22AM
Reagan's pullout of Lebanon was one of his few truly calamitous decisions, for which we continue to pay the price today. It encouraged Jihaddist violence for decades afterwards, led to the fall of the Maronites in Lebanon and the rise of Hamas.
Clint| 10.22.11 @ 12:44PM
Obama Israel Firster LawBoy RCV Badmouths Ronald Reagan.
Ronald Reagan,
"Perhaps we didn't appreciate fully enough the depth of the hatred and the complexity of the problems that made the Middle East such a jungle. Perhaps the idea of a suicide car bomber committing mass murder to gain instant entry to Paradise was so foreign to our own values and consciousness that it did not create in us the concern for the marines' safety that it should have.
In the weeks immediately after the bombing, I believed the last thing that we should do was turn tail and leave. Yet the irrationality of Middle Eastern politics forced us to rethink our policy there. If there would be some rethinking of policy before our men die, we would be a lot better off. If that policy had changed towards more of a neutral position and neutrality, those 241 marines would be alive today."
Alan Brooks | 10.21.11 @ 11:38AM
This is Jack in Wisconsin's favorite song by his favorite artist, Barbra Streisand:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lIC7Acx8lqM
Clint| 10.22.11 @ 12:47PM
Uh Oh !
ObamaBoy Israel Firster, Brooks Joins Up With Obama LawBoy Israel Firster,RCV & The RINO-CINO Israel Firster Coalition.
The Tea Party Rebellion Steps On The ObamaBoys.
Al Adab| 10.21.11 @ 12:21PM
John:
Salaam Aleikum. While we all hope the best for the people of Libya, we must be realistic as events unfold. As you know, we are dealing with a culture all too easily complacent as both the 40 year dictatorship and the nature of Islam conbine to create a people used to centralization of a society in which the religious, temporal and military authorities are combines. That is a high hill to climb in attempting any re-ordering of society. Our current administration seems either naive or simply blind to these realities as the President speaks as though he believes the revolution intendes to create a representative government. Most such events, as the French revolution taught us, go horribly wrong. There is little the US can do in such conditions and over-involvemnt will clearly be a policy error. The Libyans must be allowed to find their own path. The world cannot dictate to them their future.
Drunken Sailor| 10.21.11 @ 1:48PM
Al, that scotch seems to have your mental gears spinning pretty well. Your dead on, we would like for them to be pro-democracy but ultimately their fate should be up to them.
Al Adab| 10.21.11 @ 3:11PM
Ah Sailor:
We do have to meet up one of these days and click a glass. Thanks.
Drunken Sailor| 10.21.11 @ 3:40PM
That would be a pleasure. And good job not raising to the guilt trip bait posted to you a day or two ago. Apparently that ship WILL NOT change course.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:08PM
Ultimately, as long the the Libyans MTOB, I care not about them.
But Jack and his little buddy just despise Jews. Simple as that.
Drunken Sailor| 10.24.11 @ 9:00AM
Couldn't agree more OC!
John786| 10.21.11 @ 6:08PM
Haji Aladab,
Asslamu Alaikum wahrahmatualhi wa. I hope you are well. No doubt there are challenges based on culture, religion, history. Each can be hard to escape. But the arab people have proven in history that they are a transformative people. A semetic people Born in the harshest environment on the earth - the Arabian desert, they lived a nomadic life on the periphery of great civilisations: Roman, Persian, Egyptian, Indian. But With the coming of Islam they transformed the known world and created a global civilisation. This was without precedent. Their language, culture, religion became the medium for civilisation. So yes haji al Adab the challenge will allways be great. But the Arabs God willing will rise to the challenge. The victory in Libya in part came about through libyans hands. This bodes well for the future.
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 9:23AM
Well said, Al Adab!
Clint| 10.22.11 @ 12:50PM
We Heard Obama LawBoy,RCV Is Gonna Vote For Obama Again.
The Tea Party Rebellion Is Here.
JmsA| 10.21.11 @ 2:18PM
It's about people freeing themselves from the yoke of enslaving and murdering tyranny, and not at all complicated, other than for the various players involved.
R. Kavanagh| 10.21.11 @ 11:53PM
And what is to follow in his place? An even more deepening of full blown regressive islam in every segment of Libya. Replacing one "dictator" with another "dictatorship under islam umbrella" under the guise of democracy is all fine for a headline or two but solves nothing whatsoever.
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 9:26AM
It is justified if for no other reason than payback for Ghaddafi's cold-blooded murder of both American civilians and GIs in Germany. May he rot in he'll, forever. The future is up to the Libyans.
Clint| 10.22.11 @ 12:53PM
Uh Oh !
Obama LawBoy, RCV Is Gonna Vote For Field Marshall Obama Again.
The Tea Party Rebellion Steps On Obama LawBoy, RCV.
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 4:09PM
I must have missed being stepped on, Tim*.
Missing your friend, Mohammar? Is Doctor Paul in mourning?
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 4:09PM
I must have missed being stepped on, Tim*.
Missing your friend, Mohammar? Is Doctor Paul in mourning?
Alan Brooks| 10.22.11 @ 4:38PM
Assad will be toppled next, but he is smarter than that silly fool in Tripoli (just look at the pouting spacey mug in Gadhafi's photos) was.
Assad will flee Syria with alotta dough..
Alan Brooks| 10.22.11 @ 5:56PM
Remember, Jerk in Wisconsin does not-- repeat not-- want to kill Jews, he merely wants to skin them alive and place their denuded bodies in vats of brine and vinegar.
Timothy L. Pennell| 10.21.11 @ 7:29AM
"Are we any closer to understanding what is going on in North Africa and the Middle East?"
Yeah. That's certainly something worth wondering about. But, as for me? I'm wondering what going on in THIS Country.
Gaddafi Dead. Sheriff Hussein went in there, with a posse, and rooted that varmint out.
Mission Accomplished.
The World's Policeman, got its man. Right?
That's what Obama did. He went in "Kinetically" to Apprehend a Perp. There was no American Interests involved. NONE. He wasn't bothering US, and he wasn't looking to.
So, what's up with that?
I see everyone on the LEFT, standing around in Flight Suits, on Aircraft Carriers, high fiving each other.
But, I thought that this was WRONG? I thought that we weren't supposed to be the WORLD'S POLICEMAN? Right? Isn't that whet the Democrats always say?
Didn't they tell us (when things started getting tough) that we had no business going to Iraq? Didn't they say that Saddam Hussein wasn't threatening US? Didn't they say NO MORE Wars of Choice?
And, I thought that, to the LEFT, the WAR POWERS ACT was right up there with the Emancipation Proclamation and the Magna Carta? I thought that this was one of their TEN COMMANDMENTS?
John Edwards. If you can hear me? You were right. There are 2 Americas. One, where there's a Republican in the White House, and ONE, with a Democrat in the White House. And ALL THE RULES are applied differently, depending on which world you're in, at the time.
So, tell me. WHO'S NEXT? Obviously, it would be SYRIA. Right? I mean they meet all of the qualifications, as far as I can determine, for a Kinetic Charge up San Juan Hill, by Sheriff Hussein.
The Syrian people are Oppressed. They are being Killed in the streets, by a Tyrant, who's Family has been in charge of a Murderous Regime for a very long time. Easily more than the 40 Years of Gaddafi.
So, what are we waiting for?
I'm thinking that we're "waiting" for the next shoe to drop, on this Economy. The next "Something". My guess is, there's gonna be things coming down the pike, SOON, that are gonna need to be Distracted from.
He's a wounded Animal, now. And he's backed in to a corner.
That's when they're the most DANGEROUS.
Tina B| 10.21.11 @ 9:39AM
Tim,
you are so right on the money! I say we clean up the Middle East then start on. . .oh, let's see. . . . how 'bout SE Asia, no, been there . . .Putin's playground? . . . no, they'd kick our asses the way we're spread out. . . something small. . .like some little country in Africa, with another evil (there's that word again) warlord in charge. . .yeah, that's the ticket. . .but when. . . .hmmm, waiting and watching for the shoe. . .the next shoe. . .and then next. . .
TrueBlue| 10.21.11 @ 6:03PM
You mean like Uganda, where we're sending in 100 "advisors" that aren't going to be involved in combat unless they are attacked first? Because we all know that military advisors and trainers NEVER end up in combat situations in wartorn countries...
vtwin| 10.21.11 @ 12:21PM
“There was no American Interests involved. NONE. He [Gaddafi] wasn't bothering US, and he wasn't looking to.”
What really pisses you off is Obama did what every other President couldn’t. Obama brought a murderous dictator to justice for Pan Am Flight 103 and the 270 lives lost.
So what is your real problem with Obama? Is because he’s a Democratic, liberal, or Black?
Obama vs. Bush:
American lives lost removing Osama Bin Laden ZERO.
American lives lost removing Muammar Gaddafi ZERO.
American lives lost removing Saddam Hussein 4478 and counting.
Looks like four more years?
Anthony| 10.21.11 @ 1:03PM
Vtwin, you're a pathetic moron, you know damn well Iraq and Afghanstan were not just about just killing Saddam and Bin Laden.
If all Bush wanted was Saddam and Bin Laden, he could have simply bombed their palaces and hidouts where they were known to be, but Bush had to waste a year getting U.N support thanks to fools like you, giving Bin Laden time to hide, and of course, Bush had to play by the lefty rules of war with Saddam.
If only Bush was given the same leeway Obozo has been given by you disgusting hypocrites on the left, far fewer precious American lives would have been lost. You and the left have needless blood on your hands, vtwin.
BTW, you were one of those screaming about human rights during Bush's tenure, I notice your big mouth has been silent about Obozo taking out an American citizen without due process.
You might also remember Gaddafi willingly gave up his WMD program after the invasion of Iraq, which you lefty fools gave Bush no credit for.
So American lives lost removing Gaddafi's WMD program: ZERO. Thank you President Bush.
vtwin, SF is on borrowed time, look up big guy, those are predators drones headed your way!!
Tina B| 10.21.11 @ 2:27PM
You go, Anthony, tell him. Madre de Dios, they are so THICK. The hypocracy is nearly overwhelming, and I am sick to see the free pass given to this wicked administration.
What do we do? Where, besides this blog do you see this being reported for the bulls--- that it is? Nowhere!!
vtwin| 10.21.11 @ 3:51PM
“Hypocrisy?” I was the first one on this site to call for Obama impeachment for not seeking congressional approval before bombing Libya. Check the archive.
vtwin| 10.21.11 @ 3:44PM
Sure I understood and supported going after al Qaeda in Afghanistan but that was 10 years ago. The Afghans on the battlefield today were children (5, 6, 7 and 8 year olds) when last there was any meaningful al Qaeda presence in Afghanistan. Iraq WMD, I never bought it, concocted bullshit by a cabal of the radical Christian Right and Neocon Jews. Gaddafi's WMD program, what his copy of Aviation Week?
"Bush had to waste a year getting U.N support...giving Bin Laden time hide." Are sure about this one?
Drunken Sailor| 10.21.11 @ 1:51PM
"Obama brought a murderous dictator to justice for Pan Am Flight 103 and the 270 lives lost"
Gee I didn't realize Obama was a Libyan rebel, or a French jet pilot. Maybe he was the Predator or the hellfire missle? Last I checked the President of the US was not in charge of NATO. Then again I knew it would only be a number of hours before the left was acting like Obama called all the shots.
vtwin| 10.21.11 @ 4:04PM
“Maybe we should thank the Chinese because they invented gunpowder” --John Stewart
Timothy L. Pennell| 10.21.11 @ 2:24PM
Actually, DUMBASS, I was talking about the HIPOCRASY, of Stupid B*stards, like YOU.
JmsA| 10.21.11 @ 2:47PM
None of those "accomplishments" would have been possible without Bush's efforts. You remain a sycophant, mental defective. Learn anything about actuarial statistics yet?
JmsA| 10.21.11 @ 2:49PM
My comments were in reference to nitwit..., I mean vtwin's sycophantic nonsense.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:12PM
The problem, vtwin, is that he had made an agreement with us on non-nuclear proliferation WHICH HE WAS ABIDING BY. Had he had nukes, there would have been no challenge to him.
That's a real problem. Obama does military interventions when they will NOT benefit US interests, and pulls out of them when they WILL.
How is this supposed to convince Iran not to pursue nukes?
Occam's Tool| 10.23.11 @ 11:19PM
Vtwin: a reply from the Weasel Zippers website, quoting the London Telegraph:
...more radical plans to introduce Islamic law than expected as he declared the official liberation of the country.
Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, the chairman of the National Transitional Council and de fact president, had already declared that Libyan laws in future would have Sharia, the Islamic code, as its “basic source”.
But that formulation can be interpreted in many ways — it was also the basis of Egypt’s largely secular constitution under President Hosni Mubarak, and remains so after his fall.
Mr Abdul-Jalil went further, specifically lifting immediately, by decree, one law from Col. Gaddafi’s era that he said was in conflict with Sharia — that banning polygamy.
In a blow to those who hoped to see Libya’s economy integrate further into the western world, he announced that in future bank regulations would ban the charging of interest, in line with Sharia. “Interest creates disease and hatred among people,” he said.
Gulf states like the United Arab Emirates, and other Muslim countries, have pioneered the development of Sharia-compliant banks which charge fees rather than interest for loans but they normally run alongside western-style banks.
In the first instance, interest on low-value loans would be waived altogether, he said.
Libya is already the most conservative state in north Africa, banning the sale of alcohol. Mr Abdul-Jalil’s decision — made in advance of the introduction of any democratic process — will please the Islamists who have played a strong role in opposition to Col Gaddafi’s rule and in the uprising but worry the many young liberal Libyans who, while usually observant Muslims, take their political cues from the West."
As I feared, toppling Daffy will lead to worse things.
Barn Cat| 10.21.11 @ 2:54PM
Obama is a good Muslim: he wants to make Israel's neighborhood much more dangerous than it is today. But don't worry. God will protect Israel.
Alan Brooks| 10.22.11 @ 5:57PM
Remember, Jerk in Wisconsin does not-- repeat not-- want to kill Jews, he merely wants to skin them alive and place their denuded bodies in vats of brine and vinegar.
Intelligent Design| 10.21.11 @ 7:48AM
Libya will have an Islamic regime, which means the death of freedom. So the U.S. has spent $1.2 billion in order to accomplish nothing. At least in Iraq and Afghanistan we killed or captured thousands of terrorists. It's time to skip this idiotic "nation building", an exercise in futility in lands where most of the population is Muslim.
canuckistani| 10.21.11 @ 8:39AM
Saudi is the ultimate Islamic regime....beheadings in the square....anyone?....anyone? and a parade of presidents have held hands, kissed, made secret deals and offered safe harbor to the Fat Bastard ibn Fraud al Saud family for generations. And rightly so, it has paid enormous dividends to the US and its interests.
There is a real chance the islamists that move in will begin to create another Dubai-type arrangement for investment, oil revenues and other shelters for western interests. Based on estimates, Libya could easily be another Kuwait in its development.
We need to begin to move on from trying to understand stone-age Arab tribalism and exploit the business opps that can be nurtured with our influence and know-how.
Alan Brooks| 10.22.11 @ 6:01PM
"exploit the business opps"
Treat the residents of the Mideast as economic integers to be exploited like cattle, to be squeezed out by subliminal advertizing, to have McDonalds, Burger King, Wendys, Taco Bell Arbys... erected in every town in the region!
To boldly sell where no corporation has sold before.
Alan Brooks| 10.22.11 @ 6:02PM
What we need is a Five Year Plan for the Mideast.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:15PM
Indeed, ID. Beautifully put, as always.
hardcard| 10.21.11 @ 8:13AM
the new calaphate is at hand!
Frog in Fatigues| 10.21.11 @ 8:46AM
Tim, you think something is definitely wrong? What should we, french, think? Our midget in chief Nicoleon Sarkonaparte actually gave a very impressive welcome to the colonel, 4 years ago, letting him put our nation to shame and then suddenly decided to oust him and bomb Lybia!
We can't have it both ways in such a short lapse of time. Just like my buddies in Afgha' fighting islamic terrorism while we turn a benevolent although blind eye to the islamic terror we have in our suburbs stateside. Sometimes it makes me clench my fists in utter despair. Lots of buddies thinking likewise and Frogland is becoming a powderkeg.
Doctor Right| 10.21.11 @ 8:52AM
Ghadafi was a thug who deserved his fate.
The problem is that we know next to nothing about who will fill the void. Chants of "Allahu Akbar" over his dead body do not bode well.
The current administration is either sympathetic to radical Islam or hopelessly naive.
Tina B| 10.21.11 @ 9:42AM
or wholeheartedly evil. . . ?
Kingofthenet| 10.21.11 @ 10:32AM
Do you have the same issue, when Americans say, "Thanks be to God", or 'God is Great' that is what Allahu Akbar means in English.
Paul Kotik | 10.21.11 @ 10:45AM
Sure, chief, that's exactly the same thing. American soldiers always howl "God is Great!" over the corpses of the ragheads they kill on the battlefield. I'm pretty sure our pilots, too, scream "Thanks be to God!" when they see the JDAM hit its target.
Gosh, Kingofthenet you've nailed it: we're exactly like the ragheads!
Kingofthenet| 10.21.11 @ 11:20AM
Well I am not exactly sure what Racial Epitaph those 'Ragheads' scream, but I am pretty sure American Evangelicals who survive a fierce firefight do say something akin to 'God is Great'
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:17PM
Actually, they don't. I've known hundreds, if not thousands, as a VA Doc and having married into a family with a lot of evangelical Christian military men. They don't do that, King. You're wrong, as usual, and you speak fom ignorance.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:17PM
"from ignorance"
Tina B| 10.21.11 @ 11:50AM
When they shout, "Jehovah God is great!" I will know they have a clue and celebrate with them, until then, they may as well say anyone is great and it has the same meaning.
It isn't just about faith, it is about WHO you put your faith in. If I am on a jet plane, I may trust the doctor sitting next to me, to open me up and operate even, and he may, in fact, be a great surgeon and we both may say so, but I would not trust him to fly the jet and land me safely home. For that I need a pilot. In this post-modernistic world, I need The Great Pilot, and that is Jehovah God, the Creator of the universe, the triune God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit God, and this is NOT Allah.
So, FYI, "Thanks be to God," means one thing, and Allahu Akbar means something TOTALLY different. And if Allah is who I think he is, then yes, I suspect the statement represents the essence of evil, and it appears wholeheartedly evil in Islamic Terrorism. I stand on that.
Intelligent Design| 10.21.11 @ 11:59AM
Looking at the website www.thereligionofpeace.com
I tallied up the bloody statistics. From 9/1/11 thru 10/16/11 (46 days) Muslim terrorists killed about 956 people and wounded about 2095 worldwide. Keep in mind that most of these appear to be Muslims killing other Muslims, not Christians, Jews or "Infidels". There have been about 18,000 Muslim terrorist attacks in the 10 years since September 11, 2001, and many more in the decades and centuries preceding 9/11/01. But we are suppose to believe that Islam is a religion, when it is really an evil political ideology. True religions oppose evil. Islam embodies evil.
Dixie Pixie| 10.21.11 @ 1:47PM
Thanks for the Link I..D..
Doctor Right| 10.21.11 @ 2:37PM
NO, it doesn't.
First of all, Americans don't generally go around yelling "God is Great!" and shooting off automatic weapons...at least not in public.
Second...and most importantly...the fact that the Arabic word for God is "Allah" is irrelevant.
The God of Abraham and the Old Testament, the Father of Jesus Christ is NOT the "god" that is worshiped by Muslims.
Muslims want us to think this is so, but it's not. That idea is logically incoherent, and intellectually insupportable by historical facts.
Abraham was NOT the "Father of Islam". His son Ishmael was NEVER a Muslim. Ishmael was the progenitor of the Arab/Bedouin peoples, not of Islam.
Ishmael died thousands of years before Muhammed was even born. Ishmael NEVER heard of the Koran.
The God of the Christian Bible is NOT the "Allah" that Muslims worship.
So who is he?
...Hmmmmmm...That's a GOOD question...
Kingofthenet| 10.21.11 @ 5:49PM
Well obviously we do alot of things different in the USA, that isn't the point, neither is the God most here pray to, in one form of Christianity or another.The people in the Middle East don't have as much pride in their institutions, so instead they thank God, we might chat USA,USA! But a chat chant of 'God is Great' doesn't mean they are radical, anymore than a prayer means someone belongs to the Westboro Baptist Church.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:19PM
Yes, King, but that's the way to bet. And if you have a daughter, as I do, I wouldn't trust her safety to the chanting clowns. If you think otherwise, you are quite the idiot.
Michael Tomlinson| 10.21.11 @ 9:02AM
"The U.S. helped topple the tyrant of Tripoli . . ." Huh? How did we do that leading from behind? All we've done is replace a former threat with a real and present danger in the rise of Muslim fundamentalism in Libya, Egypt and Lebbanon. Another Barack Obama foreign policy "success."
A. C. Santore| 10.21.11 @ 9:49AM
I was somewhat surprise, but very pleased, to see the number of posters, like yourself, M.T., who recognize that we have exchanged one tyrant for another, and the other far worse than the first.
No-one will benefit from this latest trick.
And, by the way, what about all of the other "dictators" out there? Will we now go on and put them to death?
How blithely we exchange one yoke for another, or, in this case, one enemy for another, and a worse one.
“. . . what experience and history teach is this - that people and governments never have learned anything from history, or acted on principles deduced from it.” Hegel
Drunken Sailor| 10.21.11 @ 10:33AM
"And, by the way, what about all of the other "dictators" out there? Will we now go on and put them to death?"
According to the Campaigner in Chief the answer may be yes and he is warning Syria
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl.....th-gaddafi
Al Adab| 10.21.11 @ 12:26PM
We have a very naive administration that believes all revolutions are for representative government, liberty and peace. The French revolution taught us how easily such things go wrong. Most often, and this is likely most true in societies with a centralized past, one tyrant simply replaces another. There is little the US can or should do as the Libyans struggle through what they have begun. Certainly we all wish them the best, but an American administration blineded by its own wishful thinking can do more harm than good.
Drunken Sailor| 10.21.11 @ 1:54PM
I'll raise my glass in toast to that.
Al Adab| 10.21.11 @ 3:13PM
...and I to you.
Skippy| 10.21.11 @ 3:55PM
The French Revolution is the template for all leftist political activity.
Mob rule; terror; chaos; death.
Al Adab| 10.21.11 @ 5:26PM
Revolutions follow that template. The American war for Independance was not in the true sense a revolution although we call it that.
W| 10.21.11 @ 5:25PM
Al and DS
Let us not forget all the other revolutions that promised Heaven on earth: Russian Revolution in 1917, Chinese Communists, Cambodia Pol Pot, Fidel Castro Cuba, Kim whatever Korea. Over 100 million people killed by these revolutions and the governments resulting from these revolutions.
Al Adab| 10.21.11 @ 5:29PM
I should have scrolled down. Ditto my answer to skippy.
W| 10.21.11 @ 7:15PM
We are all in agreement and on the same page
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:20PM
Yup, I agreed with Michael on this one (MT is quite bright)---no good can come of this.
Tina B| 10.21.11 @ 9:43AM
yeehaw, ride on cowboy, the sherriff is comin' to town.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:21PM
Isn't that the "Sharif," as in "Rock the casbah?"
Tina B| 10.21.11 @ 9:44AM
oopsie, I thinks that should read sheriff. sorry.
Dixie Pixie| 10.21.11 @ 1:58PM
Not a problem Tina.
I thought your version was quite charming.
Anthony| 10.21.11 @ 9:45AM
Ya just gotta love these new and improved leftist D war mongers. Who knew they were so much into killing, and for America no less!!! Are these the same Ds whose hands were wringing over waterboarding??? What, no prayer rug for Ghadafi prior to meeting up with his 72 virgins??
Yep, from predator drones that kill American citizens, with nary a word from the whores in the MSM, or the ACLU, Miranda Rights anyone, to Clintonius Deminimus, who pronunced on the death of Ghadafi, "we saw, we came, he's dead".
Imagine how much quicker Bush could have gotten Saddam if these muscular D war mongers were on board after 9/11. Might have even saved a few more precious American lives, naw, perish the thought.
Funny Clinton used that Caesar quote that many of us have been kicking around TAS lately in describing some of Clinton's antics. I guess Slick Willie still reads what RET and TAS have to say about him.
Hey Slick, this one's for you: Vidi, Veni, ya got a little on your chin there girl.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:22PM
Anthony, painfully funnily savagely putt. Kudos.
Mike Hawk| 10.21.11 @ 9:55AM
The 10th Century remains in the Arab/ Islamic/ N African world and in old Persia. All it's brutality and oppression renewed by thugs with 20th century weaponry. There is no democracy movement here and we did not do a thing to influence anything meaningful except enable the brutality of the rebels agaist the brutal ruler. Civilization has had no impact here and the Barbarians rule. One tyranny has been exchanged for an unknown one. The WH cadre high-fiving themselves would have been wildly condemning the Bush Administration had Saddam or bin Laden been dispatched in the same horrific brutal manner. Libya remains a third world 10th Century hell hole.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:22PM
Mike Hawk: How come so many cool guys on this site are named Mike?
Mike Hawk| 10.22.11 @ 9:05AM
Nome-de-plume doesn't sound right.
Tina B| 10.21.11 @ 10:11AM
You two guys, Anthony and Mike, are so right. The idea that the admin has gone way beyond what they (the progressives, the libtards, the Dems) absolutely castigated the Bush Team for, and the bloody MSM is in such a disgusting bedtime romp with them, makes me glad my hubby isn't around to see it. (I sometimes think God took him when He did because he couldn't have survived the coverage of the current administration-he was retired and watching the news far too much)
:^)
I see the final days of earth as we know it, and if Obama is hastening that, I know the end of the story and my family and I will be standing firm until He comes for us. . . bring it.
prestonsbrooks| 10.21.11 @ 10:13AM
Most folks seem to have bought into the propaganda of the western press. The primary reason Moe was offed was his plan to introduce gold dinars as a backing for a real monetary unit attached to Libyan oil pricing. Needless to say, this would have upset the fiat-currency hoax of the anglo-american bansksters. So, a 'reason' to intervene was invented, Libya's oil now belongs to NATO, and a compliant puppet government is in place.
Kingofthenet| 10.21.11 @ 10:34AM
Ron Paul put you up to this? I really don't need Gold Coins rattling in my pocket, not to mention the dollar coins would have to be the size of a pin-head.
Alan Brooks| 10.22.11 @ 4:42PM
"Ron Paul put you up to this?"
Preston is another Southern-fried conspiracist. Gold! the corniest weapon in the conspiracy-wingnut arsenal.
goldbugs, foodnuts...
Alan Brooks| 10.22.11 @ 4:43PM
Preston! I've got some freeze-dried survivalfood......
All American American| 10.21.11 @ 10:55AM
I dunno I'm no ME expert but when I see a guy in the WH who hates America and hates Israel and who grew up a muslim, I start to wonder what's behind the taking out of Middle Eastern strongmen and replacing them with the Muslim Brotherhood.
Couldn't be a method to BO's madness, could there?
Say what you want about Mubarek or Qadaffi or that whackjob in Syria, but they seem to love money and power more than the moon god allah. Wonder how things'll be when the folks running the show love allah more than money and power?
cicero| 10.21.11 @ 12:55PM
A short review of Muslim history from the 8th century forward (and maybe back to 632) seems to show that the leaders seldom leave peacefully. That is, of course, unless that are killedd in their sleep. This is just another normal transition of power in that region of the world. For the West to think that this is the prelude to Jeffersonian democracy is silly.
This is what comes of dumbing down, or eleminating, the study of history in our schools and universities. The world begins when you are born, end when you die. We are distined to repeat this exercise over and over again.
Al Adab| 10.21.11 @ 3:23PM
Cicero:
The problem in Libya is directly related to a culture, in which Islam is a dominant force, that centralizes the religious, temporal and military powers under one authority. Unlike the West (Western Civilization) which recognizes the worth of the individual and seperates those spheres, Islam and the societies dominated by it are totalistic and focus on the collective not the individual. That is why, regardless of the events across the middle east, there is lettle the West or the US can do to influence any outcome. It is quite naive to speak, as does this administration, any supposition that this represents an attempt to establish some representative government. Such a system is a Western concept foreign to Islamic culture. Sad yes, but our wishes will not make it different.
Dixie Pixie| 10.21.11 @ 5:02PM
Nailed it again...Cicero.
Libya is going to go through a period of Civil War until the squabbling tribes sort out who is to be the top wolf running a muslim government.
The next government certainly will not be a secular western-style democratic government as Qaddafi killed everyone who was that type.
There is simply not enough secular liberal people to form a car pool and so definitely not enough to staff even the key positions in the next government.
What the Libyans are going to get is a socialist tinted sharia petrol-autocracy with a few bits of democratic tinsel to appease the foreign backers.
The foreign spook backers only want a stable oil supply and don't care about the internal operation of an Libyan government as long as the people are firmly suppressed to a subservient state and cheap oil keeps flowing.
A populist democratic quasi-liberal government favored by the MSM is the last type of government the foreign spooks will want to build.
Such governments try to extract as much money from the oil and natural resource money stream as possible.
The oil money the Libyan government collects is the money the British, US and French governments do not get thus the preference for sharia autocratic style governments.
The populace suppression qualities of Islamic sharia autocracies are a perfect match for the resource extraction business.
A beaten down populace keeps the profit margins high for both government and business.
I doubt the Libyans will be cheering Obama's name after they find out what type of government is going to be imposed upon them.
Occam's Tool| 10.21.11 @ 9:23PM
Cicero:
Brilliant.
Barn Cat| 10.21.11 @ 2:51PM
Obama got what he wanted: a chance to have another radical Islamic state like Iran. There are people in Libya who want democracy but those people won't be the ones that win. The same goes for Egypt. We went from having a dictator who left us alone to a possible terrorist state that will come after us. All this and it cost us a billion dollars too.
Dixie Pixie| 10.21.11 @ 5:37PM
Greetings BarnCat
Did anyone else notice the MSM and Socialist / Liberals did not even remark that the date of the Egyptian Presidential and Parliamentary elections have come and gone.
Notice the sound of crickets singing the Socialist / Liberal beloved songs of Freedom, Liberty, Peace, Prosperity and the joys of Western style Democracy.
The Egyptian Army claims the elections will occur after a new Constitution is written.
Is if we have not heard that promise before.
Obama promised us a boot on the throat of economic Liberty.
Who would remark that the Egyptian Army boot is being applied to throat of the Egyptian people.
Or does Obama have the MSM in a vise-like grip.
JimP| 10.21.11 @ 3:15PM
The MSM acted "appalled" at the "barbaric execution" by ARVN Gen. General Nguyễn Ngọc's execution of a Viet Cong insurgent who was captured just after murdering multiple civilian family members of RVN officials during the 1968 Tet Offensive. The MSM used the photo of the execution as a symbol of the "corrupt American and South Viet Namese effort" to resist communist domination/take over of South Vietnam. Now, the MSM macabrely celebrates Kaddaffi getting the same treatment as a victory for their beloved Prezident Zero and allows the gruesome video to proliferate rather than "protecting us" from the horror like they have done with the 9/11 videos of the WTC bombings.
Skippy| 10.21.11 @ 4:00PM
I have always enjoyed that photo.
Of course, I support summary execution of communists...and jihadis.
American streetgang members were on that list, until I met Fr. Gregory Boyle.
Look him up...
JimP| 10.21.11 @ 5:42PM
Touche, Skippy! I couldn't help but wonder whether a couple more years of O-Zero at the helm would cause him to meet a fate like Kaddaffi at the hands of the OWS crowd once they get wise to the millions he has banked thanks to his Wall Street cronies.
Dixie Pixie| 10.21.11 @ 7:09PM
Greetings Jim
The OWS front groups would never turn on Obama.
On the other hand, the TEA Party might execute Obama.
But it would be a much tidier execution conducted with great ceremony.
JimP| 10.21.11 @ 7:29PM
Respectfully, DP, I don't see the Tea Party doing Obama in. Far better to let him live in ignominy like Carter. Slow torture for his narcissism. There'll be no spinning his way out of the incompetence he has shown nor the bad effects of his socialist policies. It will be he!! on him for the rest of his loooong life. Just deserts, IMO.
Re the OWS crowd, I can get your point, but I could still see them turning on him. They are a violent lot and discovering he betrayed/played them for cash from Wall St. could turn them, IMO.
Dixie Pixie| 10.21.11 @ 9:20PM
Greeting Jim
The above post was a joke.
It was a play on words contrasting the orderliness of the TEA Party to the disorganization of the OWS front groups.
On your second point:
One would have better luck exploring the motivations of a ball-peen hammer than that of the OWS front groups.
They are simply a tool for Obama to force Congress to give Obama what he wants.
The methodology is simple.
1) Create astroturf front groups from the permanent protesters of socialism.
2) Find a target, fixate MSM attention on it, Demonize it, incite the front groups against it.
3) Make it appear that the protests are growing across the nation using the MSM and unions to propagandize and stage phony protests in other cities.
4) Obama then citing “The Will Of The People” pressures Congress to give his more Trillions of dollars to pacify the front groups.
5) Spend the money on the backers of the front groups and whatever else Obama thinks will get him elected.
Socialist are famous for sticking with their “Leadership” despite all disasters.
Socialists first deny, second claim it is opposition propaganda, third claim it is opposition trickery.
Finally, if all else fails, exonerate the leadership of all wrong doing and claim the leadership actions were necessary, right, just and ex post facto legal.
OWS will never turn on Obama any more than a ball-peen hammer would.
They are simply not as intelligent as a ball-peen hammer.
JimP| 10.21.11 @ 5:47PM
Thanks for the Fr. Boyle reference. What a great servant of The Lord. It reminds me of Christ's admonishment that he among us who would be great, must be a servant. God bless Father Boyle. We need more like him.
RCV| 10.23.11 @ 3:29AM
Father Boyle is one the truly good guys. You can meet him most any day at Homegirl Cafe in downtown LA, where I stop each morning on my way into the office.
beebop2| 10.21.11 @ 6:23PM
Is there a record for murders sanctioned by a Nobel Peace Prize Winner????
Dixie Pixie| 10.21.11 @ 7:17PM
Greetings BeeBop
There is no clear list, but I think no one will disagree with this order
The clear winner is still Yasser Arafat with Le Duc To in second place and the UN Peacekeeping Forces in third.
Dishonorable Mentions ::: Woodrow Wilson and Barack Obama.
Mike D.| 10.23.11 @ 10:17PM
Arafat.
Dixie Pixie| 10.23.11 @ 11:27PM
Greetings Mike.
Was that a question or a statement.
Feel free to come up with your own list.
charles794| 10.21.11 @ 7:34PM
That he was mad & murderer has been known for many years.
Pox on all the presidents, prime ministers, kings, queens a other assorted "representatives"! Pox on them for shaking his hands, for enjoying his hospitality, for welcoming him in our countries, for treating him as normal, for deceiving his own people by giving him - and other scum like him - the air of respectability.
Dixie Pixie| 10.21.11 @ 9:27PM
That would include both Louis Farrakhan and Barack Obama which accepted “donations” from Qaddafi.
RCV| 10.23.11 @ 3:30AM
That is a fLat lie, Miss Pixie. Obama never "accepted donation" from Ghaddafi.
Dixie Pixie| 10.23.11 @ 5:01PM
In June 2008 Qaddafi (Africa’s King of Kings) implied that a legal campaign contribution was made to the Obama 2008 Campaign, presumably through Qaddafi's longstanding contacts with Rev Farrakhan and Rev Wright.
The only way a foreign ruler would even make such an suggestion is because he would like to take public credit for doing so.
For supporting information see the websites below::::
http://jmw.typepad.com/politic.....tions.html
http://presentdiscontent.wordp.....and-libya/
Dixie Pixie| 10.23.11 @ 5:06PM
For further information on this topic see the below sites::::
http://www.warriorsfortruth.co.....utors.html
http://www.thedenenbergreport......index=1478
greatj| 10.24.11 @ 12:10AM
You forgot Cynthia McKinney.
POST American| 10.21.11 @ 11:19PM
"--We are using MASSIVE third world
immigration (mainly muslim) to DESTROY
British culture, beyond repairs, once and
for all ---FOREVER."
-TONY BLAIR
Fmr PM/ Globalist/ Cultural EUGENIST
----and future EU President (?)
(2005 Daily Mail interview
cited by ALAN WATT online)
AS the BUSH-CLINTON--OBAMA CFR front
op has our borders eroding, 30 MILLION
illegals roaming the landscape of our Globalist
collapsed economy, and RED China being
brought in as our 'model'
-------------------------UH----------------------------
----I think one and all can see
what's REALLY going on here.
-----------HUAC meets NUREMBERG 2012---------
RND | 10.22.11 @ 1:23AM
Where is the Pan Am bomber? (Lockerbie, Scotland 1988) What is his status?
As a gesture of appreciation for our many, many forms of assistance in obtaining Khadaffi's demise, this Libyan bomber should be turned over to US forces custody.
For trial and execution here.
(there will be no more leniency for lies like his failing health condition)
Mike Hawk| 10.22.11 @ 9:01AM
There are no US forces in Libya to turn him over to and the Muslim Brotherhood isn't about to either.
RCV| 10.22.11 @ 9:31AM
CNN showed him a few weeks ago in his deathbed hooked up to an IV. Looked like a cadaver. But the real Lockerbie bomber, Ghaddafi, has just been executed, thanks be to God!
Nick| 10.24.11 @ 12:10AM
Watch it, RCV. Those are the type of statements that will get your ACLU membership-card revoked! Ha-ha!
beebop2| 10.22.11 @ 5:45AM
I trust your not doing something like holding your breath?
mike harris| 10.22.11 @ 10:38AM
A good example of cultural misunderstanding took place in London, in 1946. Molotov, the USSR's Foreign Commissar, was meeting Churchill. A butler noted that Molotov had a Browning automatic in his luggage! Of course, in the USSR such a thing was indispensable...
J.C.Eaton| 10.22.11 @ 12:32PM
Very provocative artcle, kudos. This "nation-building" nonsense is plain silly. This fixation upon the possibility of mideast representative deocracy is likewise plain silly. Twenty years ago, the Army War College had its' students discuss American military missions post "the new world order." Nation-building was of course, top of the list. But asking the American soldier to risk his neck for someone else's liberty is one thing; asking him to remake a whole region without totally bashing its' brains in first[see Japan and Nazi Germany] is ridiculous. We aren't going to do the bashing, hence we can't do the transforming. And to transform giving one of these 7th century serfs the vote and equating it with a constitutional republic dignified the former and trivializes the latter. Pure democracy to these mushfakers is a lynch mob.
Sarbo| 10.22.11 @ 5:10PM
Forget about any Arab Springs. One fine afternoon on an Arab autumn, Clinton comes to Benghazi and says she "hopes" Gaddaffi will "soon be captured or killed". Her words. Less than 24 hours later, the man is dead.
Since when did pols become so prescient?
RCV| 10.23.11 @ 3:32AM
Well, at the time rebel forces had him surrounded in his hometown, so it wasn't a difficult prediction to make.
Sarbo| 10.24.11 @ 11:28AM
Precisely. It wasn't a prediction. Remember, from the end of September through the weeks of October, the media and its mother in law were oh-so-confident that the man and his sons had fled to Niger. There was giddy talk of a 100-car convoys.
Maybe Clinton and her boss knew something you did not. Hmm?
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Tina B| 10.22.11 @ 7:20PM
My thinking also, Hillary was in Croatia/Bosnia just before Ron Brown's plane "went down" as well. Vince Foster died a mysterious death, and according to Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, little Billy C had a lot of unexplained deaths (not to mention rapes) in his secret resume folder as well. What a couple!!!
POST American| 10.23.11 @ 10:42PM
--------------------BOTTOM LINE----------------------
AS America is finished off, via long USURY
engineered economic collapse ---and as,
in TONY BLAIR'S own words (--and deeds)
"British culture is DESTROYED forever".
-----------HUAC meets NUREMBERG 2012---------
Absolutely NOTHING ELSE will do.
greatj| 10.24.11 @ 12:08AM
Who is going to pay off Farrakhan and McKinney now that Ghaddafi is gone?????
Tim| 10.24.11 @ 9:05AM
It is good to see that Lybia's new rulers
are following the ethical rule of law.
Oh by the way, I thought the dead were to be buried in one day?
B. McElhone| 10.27.11 @ 12:29PM
Kaplan is too kind and too learned for the subject at hand.
"Sic semper tyrannus" is a Western notion, with narrow application. Another one, originally Scottish, I think, applies more universally: "If a man were permitted to make all the ballads, he need not care who should make the laws of a nation."
The freest and fairest election in North Africa (probably in the Arab world . . . maybe in the Islamic world) produced an immense victory for Islamists who promise to install sharia lite as the law of the land. The Libyan insurgency, served by American and NATO service members and in support of which the West spent billions of borrowed dollars, is led by men who plainly murdered the tyrant and then declared for -- sharia!
Islam, intolerant, murderous and primitive, writes the ballads. Although, of course, ballads are haram.
The interventionist principle in US and Western foreign policy has led us to delusions and folly. Despite all our missionary zeal and enormous spending, cultures are not interchangeable; each has its own ballads. Formed by those ballads, the wretched of the earth are not squatted in their hovels waiting for the US Constitution to be delivered via B-1 bomber or M-1 tank, or USAID.
More likely, they are squatted in their hovels, wondering how to wound, bully, humiliate and murder their oppressor -- and take his place.
jt| 10.28.11 @ 3:50PM
"...we have viewed it almost exclusively through Western eyes."
Not me my friend. I'm watching Al-Jazeera English.