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The Marital Spectator
Duke Chapel in a PC Age
What would Robert E. Lee think of its defense of same-sex marriage?
Duke University Chapel is one of the great places in U.S. campus religious life. It is more cathedral than chapel, its gothic spires soaring high into the clear North Carolina air. Look closely, and you’ll notice that the carvings outside the cathedral doors are not medieval saints but Robert E. Lee, Thomas Jefferson, and Southern poet Sidney Lanier. John Wesley, with early Methodist Bishops Francis Asbury and Thomas Coke, also appears in the stone, as does 18th century revivalist George Whitfield, along with such heroes to Protestants as Martin Luther, John Wycliffe, and Girolamo Savonarola. On the lawn is a statue to Duke University’s founding philanthropist, tobacco mogul James Buchanan Duke, unsurprisingly clasping a cigar.
Architecturally the chapel is simultaneously a Christian church, shrine to southern culture, celebration of America, ode to Methodism, and champion of Protestantism. Former First Things editor Jody Bottum, a Catholic, once commented that Duke’s campus was maybe one of the last locales where the old Mainline Protestant ascendancy can still be felt.
Duke University is officially still owned by the United Methodism Church’s Southeast Jurisdiction, though it effectively operates without deep regard for the denomination, like most Mainline Protestant founded schools. The affiliation with the church was further stressed in 2000 when the school’s president insisted Duke Chapel host same-sex unions, which the denomination prohibits. Then Duke Chapel Dean Will Willimon, though not personally supportive, acquiesced. Duke’s Divinity School, which still graduates many Methodist clergy and is arguably the most orthodox of the church’s official seminaries, created its own separate chapel that would operate under church rules.
Willimon’s successor as chapel dean chaplain is Sam Wells, an erudite, liberal-leaning Church of England priest who espouses a “generous orthodoxy.” North Carolina’s legislature recently approved a proposed state constitutional amendment defining marriage as man and woman, which Wells thought less than generous. He responded with his own curt denunciation of the legislature at a pro-same sex marriage rally on the chapel steps, with the carved Lee, Jefferson, and Wesley statues stoically looking on.
Citing Jefferson’s affirmation of the “pursuit of happiness,” Wells, while incorrectly ascribing it to the Constitution rather than the Declaration of Independence, declared: “It is impossible to understand why you, legislators of the state of North Carolina, are considering singling out one population, a population that makes such a rich and profound and wide-ranging contribution to the wellbeing and culture of our state, to be denied the pursuit of happiness in the form of a publicly recognized union of two persons only asking to be allowed to share a life together.”
Wells complained that same-sex couples can’t fully pursue “happiness” while ostensibly denied rights to hospital visits, tax credits, pension benefits and other marital accoutrements. He sarcastically further implored: “Is this what gives you pride and joy in your work, to know that you have selected a misunderstood minority of our population and succeeded in systematically denying them the pursuit of happiness? Is this what brings you satisfaction and makes you truly happy? Really?” And he urgently concluded: “Now’s the time to show the people of this state what this state is really made of. Now’s the time to pull together and address the real issues of our day. Now’s the time to say to every single person in your community, ‘We need you. We need you, your creativity, your energy, your loyalty, your courage — we need you if we’re going to face these challenges together. And we appreciate you, for your individuality, what you bring that no one else can bring, what you are that no one else is. We need you, because only with you, can we all be truly happy.’”
Redefining marriage as an essential human right rooted in the Declaration of Independence neatly summarizes Mainline Protestantism’s accommodation of America’s liberal secular culture, with its prioritization of rights and atomized individualism. Even Jefferson (an Episcopalian who inclined towards Unitarianism) would probably wince. And surely General Lee would, while there’s no doubt about Wesley, Asbury, or Luther. More mindful of transcendent truths, North Carolina voters almost certainly will ratify the traditional definition of marriage in May of next year. And the United Methodist Church, at its governing General Conference next year, almost certainly will reaffirm traditional marriage, thanks mostly to growing numbers of African delegates, who will soon surpass members of declining U.S. churches.
In fairness, political correctness does not completely rule over Duke Chapel. A service in August featured Jason Byassee, a prominent Duke alumnus and now North Carolina Methodist pastor who previously was an editor at Christian Century. That Chicago-based magazine was once the flagship of dominant liberal Protestantism and followed those churches leftward and downward in influence in recent decades. With help from Byassee, in recent years, the magazine became more centrist and inclusive of orthodox voices. His August sermon at Duke was an orthodox recollection of God’s providential calling of the ancient Hebrews and how Christians, by faith, become “honorary Jews.” The music, liturgy, and processional were majestic, fitting for the splendid gothic stage, as sunlight streamed through gorgeous stained glass. The engraved visages of John Wesley and Martin Luther outside the doors still had some cause to nod in approval. The embers of Mainline Protestantism still endure, even if diminished from former glory.
About the Author
Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (63) | Leave a comment
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Antonio Garza Duke LGBT| 10.17.11 @ 6:50AM
Hooey, hooey!
AmSpec is still singing its old song "Oh, How We Hate the intelligent, talented Faggots!" (sung to the tune of Irving Berlin's "Oh, How I Hate to Get Up in the Morning") So very tedious. Time to move on, troglodytes. Time to move your wrinkled, fat asses on.
Mr. Tooley, the Christian church is evolving spiritually and morally.
As for the African Methodists, they are acting out of hatred and ignorance. It is disgraceful how African homosexuals are treated in Africa--condemned to death--and this barbarity is applauded by the local "Christians."
Troglodyte! That's what you are, Mr. Tooley.
We here at Duke are moving onward and upward and over--way over--you and your kind.
A member of Duke's brilliant LGBT. Look us up, Trogs. We're on the NET.
Stu Goldman| 10.17.11 @ 7:07AM
Mr. Tooley,
Do I have a theologean for you! Martin Luther.
Below is a small sprinkling of his quotes. Luther was evil to the bone, but that does not matter one whit to you, does it?
Just think what Luther could have done to the gays. Burned them alive perhaps? That's what he had done to the Jews.
Man, you make me sick, and I long for the day when Christianity is rid of people of your hateful ilk.
Now for a few little delicious nuggets from the great Martin Luther:
"All our experience with history should teach us, when we look back, how badly human wisdom is betrayed when it relies on itself."
[Martin Luther (1483-1546), German Protestant leader]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon....This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13]that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."
[Martin Luther in one of his "Table Talks" in 1539]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"People give ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus]who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy."
[Martin Luther, Works, Volume 22, c. 1543]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Their synagogues ... should be set on fire."
"Their homes should be broken down and destroyed. They ought to be put under one roof or in a stable, like Gypsies, in order that they may realize that they ... are ... but miserable captives."
"They should be deprived of their prayerbooks and Talmuds."
"Their rabbis must be forbidden under threat of death to teach any more."
[Martin Luther]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Die verfluchte Huhre, Vernunft." (The damned whore, Reason).
[Martin Luther]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"What shall we Christians do now with this depraved and damned people of the Jews? ... I will give my faithful advice: First, that one should set fire to their synagogues. . . . Then that one should also break down and destroy their houses. . . . That one should drive them out the country."
[Martin Luther]
Martin Luther and his followers were responsible for the holocaust--the murder of six million Jews.
Hey, but this is A okay with you reactionery Christians. Right?
You'd gladly do it to the gays, wouldn't you?
DTOM| 10.17.11 @ 9:22AM
First you come for the Jews, then you come for the bankers, then you come for the Christians...
Are you an unrepentant Communist or just a useful idiot?
Have they promised you a dacha, yet? Think you'll get it? Yes, you'll get it - they'll come for you first. Dolt, tool, fool.
emilio lizardo, PhD| 10.17.11 @ 9:32AM
and this conservative, Obama-loathing Duke faculty member, who adores our chapel, still is able finds it in his heart to support our campus LGBT community and affirm the right for marriage for all. Why is it that there are so many of my conservative/libertarian brethren who in one breath clamor for the "government to get off our backs" and in another call for the government to pass laws restricting marriage among members of our society. The mean-spirited, ignorant hypocrisy.
mick lee| 10.17.11 @ 3:22PM
What hypocritical B.S. The same-sex marriage crowd is using the coercive power of the state to enact a legal fiction against the sense of the people. The efforts to define marriage as one man and one woman are a REACTION to the clear possibility that some court somewhere will decide the issue in the same-sex marriage favor. In other words, one judge or nine judges will take it upon themselves to force the "enlightened" way on a non-understanding public. Some democracy. Some republic.
Of course, those in favor of same-sex marriage have no intention to open the definition of marriage to include polygamy or polyandry. But when these will come up to be real issues forced on the public—and make no mistake, they will—while the same-sex crowd maybe intensely opposed, they will have no principled argument against them.
Oh, what you do not mention about Luther and the Jews is that Luther—had he had his way—would have deported all the Jews back to Palestine. The German princes completely ignored Luther’s wishes on this matter. Yet, if Luther had had his way, the holocaust would have never happened four hundred years later. Perhaps the state of Israel would have been established four hundred years before 1949. Perhaps the Second World War would have never happened as a major wellspring would have been absent. Who knows? If you’re going to dump on Luther, at least empty your bowels at the way.
Stu| 10.17.11 @ 4:17PM
Mick lee, an apologist for the antisemitic Martin Luther.
Mick, you reveal a lot about yourself by your post. You love that old-time religion of hate, don't you.
Keep on apologizing for monsters, and keep on hating; you're hurting mostly yourself, hater.
Quartermaster| 10.17.11 @ 5:35PM
You simply expose your lack of knowledge of Christianity. Read Romans Chapter 1 sometime. We've known for centuries that your problem is a serious mental illness resulting from your rebellion against God.
Mick Lee| 10.20.11 @ 10:28AM
Apparently, “Stu” doesn’t understand irony. It is no paradox that one rotten damned utterance is not ameliorated by another rotten damned utterance. But it is fun to tweak the noses of our amateur historians who condemn Luther in totality with what is in fact a worthless speculation. Nothing gets a rise out of “Luther haters” like putting forward that out of an evil act (deportation to Palestine) God could have used for good to save His people. They fall for it every time.
As to whether I am a hater or not, I leave that to others to decide for themselves. We know what “Stu” thinks. I am personally more interested in the opinion of my son who is himself gay. We are both cognizant of each other’s convictions and yet we manage to be family. We accept each other and—as with so many things—in this fallen world that’s the best we can hope for short of our Lord’s return. Nevertheless, as with most totalitarians, it is likely that won’t be good enough for the “Stu’s” among us.
Be that as it may, when it comes to hate, perhaps when he attains the wisdom of years, “Stu” should look back and take measure of the hatred articulated in his own posting.
old white guy| 10.17.11 @ 10:08AM
i find your comments sad.
Franco| 10.17.11 @ 12:38PM
Listen, not all f----s are as intelligent or talented as yourself. So, well, you'd better think, there.
Anthony| 10.17.11 @ 2:41PM
Yes Mr. Tooley, the Christian church is evolving spiritually and morally, so those of you Trogs with wrinkled fat asses need to move on.
A lesson in Christian piety by Antonio Garza, proud member of Duke's brilliant LGBT.
Oh, Antonio, you broke our hearts, we always hoped you'd have made us all proud by being a member of the Duke Lacrosse team.
Anthony M| 10.17.11 @ 8:45PM
Any church that condones homosexual marriage is not a Christian church. They can call themselves whatever they want, but they are in direct contradiction of the bible. Here in the twenty-first century, most of us can read, and both the Old and the New Testaments condemn homosexuality. All the sodomites in hollywood and gomorrahns in DC can't change that.
POST American| 10.17.11 @ 6:59AM
----FAR more important than this
latest foregone conclusion from 6 decades
of Masonic Rockefeller infiltration of our
entire christian church estabishment
(ie 'Counci of Churches' )
is the recent blatant double cross from BOGUS
Christian 'Tell-A-Vangelist',and 33rd degree
Luciferian Freemason, PAT ROBERTSON.
Aside from being a complete NO SHOW
on the issue of the Globalist RED China
sellout and TREASON OP----he's now
acting the 'on board' front he is by publicly
greenighting the dumping of one's spouse
with ALzheimer's.
This is spitting in the face of Christ's
explicitly laid down doctrine of 'One man,
One woman --ONE LIFE'.
Note, he's also done TV turns with his
fellow Freemason 'Christian' front op,
AL SHARPTON, pushing the BOGUS,
ROT-child banking sin-dick--IT
carbon tax SCAM.
Neither ROBERTSON or SHARPTON
have ever made a sustained, high profile
protest AGAINST the awesomely horrific
EUGENICS agendas of the 'Big Boys'.
They might gve a little lip service to the
'A--bore--shun' issue when they want to
drum up revenue ---but that's it.
Now, ROBERTSON has as good as opened
the door to that fave Masonic Social Darwinist
op of all ---EUGENICS in the name of
'X--speed---E---incy'.
He should be relentlessly drummed from
the ranks of any church with even a drop
of self-respect left.
This is ----DEADLY. Get these frauds
OUT-------!
ROBERTSON and SHARPTON should
join their Freemasonic brethren (such as
BILLY GRAHAM) ----at the lodge ---and
OUT of our churches.
----------------THEY ARE POISON--------------------
Drucilla| 10.17.11 @ 7:10AM
POST American,
I just love your psychotic poetry! Always gives me a rush-- as in Rush Limbaugh.
rupee| 10.17.11 @ 7:41AM
Post American is one of the finest posters on this blog. I look forward to his hallucinatory thoughts.
Keep 'em coming, POST.
postanote| 10.17.11 @ 1:40PM
Please, somebody put POST on some antipsychotic drugs, and fast. Talk about raving mad.
Evelyn| 10.17.11 @ 1:40PM
Well I think he's interesting.
Fred L.| 10.17.11 @ 1:41PM
he's just as entitled to express his opinion as any of the rest of us (we who are in various levels of psychosis)
908 Butterfield| 10.17.11 @ 1:42PM
So true, Fred.
Child of God| 10.17.11 @ 1:43PM
Fred, don't you mean psychoses (plural).
Fred| 10.17.11 @ 1:44PM
Well aren't we nit-picking anal, Child of ...
Child of God| 10.17.11 @ 1:45PM
I was just trying to be helpfull.
Fred| 10.17.11 @ 1:45PM
Doncha mean helpful with one L instead of the two you gave it.
Dunce
Dr. Drinkard| 10.17.11 @ 1:47PM
I think we could all benefit from attending a service at Duke Chapel.
So much rancor on here.
MOS was 71331| 10.17.11 @ 1:57PM
I just wish I could understand his (POST American's) opinions. They rarely make any sense.
C Smith| 10.17.11 @ 11:55AM
In 2001, the WCC [World Council of Churches] Executive Committee recommended an international boycott of goods produced in illegal (sic) settlements on occupied territory, and the WCC-related APRODEV agencies in Europe are now working to have Israeli settlement products fully and properly identified before shipment to the European Community. … The Central Committee takes note of the current action by the Presbyterian Church (USA) which has initiated a process of phased, selective divestment from multinational corporations. … This action is commendable in both method and manner” (World Council of Churches - Central Committee News Release, Geneva, 21 February 2005, emphasis added).
So you have the picture that we have today forming, and has formed, and will continue to form of the World Council of Churches and all of its cohorts, because they have merged themselves together in an unholy union made sort of a spiritual smorgasbord so you can kind of pick and choose your own doctrine. Whatever you want to believe is fine but it all comes out in the wash as long as you are a member of our organization. … In order for a person to hold fast to the doctrine and the truth of the Word of God today it is many times necessary for him to leave the apostate system. … ‘I will put on you no other burden.’ Look if you have apostates running your church, you have enough problems. If this has become the dominate factor in your church, you have big problems. … ‘hold on to what you have’ (The Valley Church, emphasis added).
“On July 2, 2004, the 216th General Assembly of the [Reformed] Presbyterian Church (USA) approved several measures … including a call … to begin gathering data to support a selective divestment of holdings [approximately $8 billion] in multinational corporations doing business in Israel” (Alexa Smith, GA04121: Assembly Endorses Israel Divestment, July 2, 2004, emphasis added).
On April 1, 1933, Germany’s newly elected chancellor initiated what was to be a 1000 year millennium of the Third Reich with a nationwide boycott of Jewish businesses. The Star of David was scrawled in yellow and black across doors and windows: “our studio, like the other Jewish businesses in Karlsruhe, was plastered with signs during the anti-Jewish boycott: ‘Don't buy from Jews’” (Johanna Hirsch, child Holocaust survivor, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Washington, D.C.).
http://theisraelofgod.blogspot.....david.html
Ikka| 10.17.11 @ 7:21AM
Martin Luther was evil; there's no denying that.
But John Calvin was an evil man also. Having just finished reading Calvin: A Biography by Bernard Cottret, I don't know how Presbyterians can continue to revere this man.
Here are some samples from the book that show the sufferings caused directly by Calvin:
"9. (page 180) February 1545 - "Freckles" Dunant dies under torture without admitting to the crime of spreading the plague. His body was then dragged to the middle of town and burned.
10. (page 180) 1545 - Following the incident with Dunant, several more men and women were apprehended including a barber and a hospital supervisor who had "made a pact with the devil."
11. (page 180) March 7, 1545 - Two women executed by burning at the stake (presumably for the crime of sorcery, i.e. spreading the plague). CALVIN INTERCEDED apparently to have them executed sooner rather than later after additional time in prison. The Council followed his directive happily and urged the executioner to "be more diligent in cutting off the hands of malefactors."
12. (page 180) 1545 - more executions, tortures carefully watched to prevent death. Most of the tortured refused to confess. Means of death varied a little to include decapitation. All under the crime of spreading the plague. Some committed suicide in their cells to avoid torture, afterward the rest were handcuffed. One woman then through herself through a window.
13. (page 208) 1545 - CALVIN HAD the magistrates seize Belot, an Anabaptist (against infant baptism) for stating that the Old Testament was abolished by the New. Belot was chained and tortured.
Yes, Christianity is evolving morally. Thank God for that.
C Smith| 10.17.11 @ 2:17PM
The history of "Christianity" and the history apostasy are more often than not one and the same due to personages like John Calvin and Martin Luther.
However, the greater tragedy is that many while justifiably harping on the hypocrisy and human frailty of those identified with Christianity, perhaps yourself, will miss the opportunity for eternal life.
So sad since Jesus has already paid the price "for the sins of the whole world" (1 John 2:2); Jesus died for everyone who ever lived. However, this doesn't mean that all will enjoy eternity with Him. Each of us are created in the image of God with free will to chose or not to chose as Lord the one who died for us: "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" (Rom 10:13).
If you chose Jesus as your Lord your name is in the Book of Life and you will not stand in the Judgment and be judged according to your works:
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works" (Revelation 20:11-13).
O. Robinson| 10.17.11 @ 7:39AM
The God of Calvinism is an evil God. Read about it, and you will see how foolish and dangerous Calvinism is. And Presbyterians claim that Calvin is a TRUE Presbyterian. That's why I left this crackpot church years ago.
Rebuke Duke| 10.17.11 @ 8:12AM
It appears likely that Anbonio/Ikea/Blobinson is the same gay dude posting under various names.
Garza| 10.17.11 @ 8:33AM
Yes, yes, yes!
Well , if they are the same "gay dude" (oh, how you hate the gays), he sho do speak the truth.
The Truth, Rebuke! So you go right ahead and rebuke the truth. You all are good at that.
Rebuke! Rebuke! Rebuke!
Rebuke until you puke!
ETERNAL REALITY| 10.17.11 @ 1:01PM
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
You will never change human nature, or reality.
POST American| 10.17.11 @ 7:53AM
-----FORGET even Calvin---and, more to
the point, Masonic set up and front op
provocateur ---Jacob Arminius.
Tear the smutty veil from your fallen
soul and prayerfully search the scriptures
yourself.
"Forget about your 'Brotherhood of Man'
-----------Worry about the Fatherhood of GOD."
-------------------------AMEN----------------------------
@yourleisure| 10.17.11 @ 1:31PM
POST American.
Man, you keep on posting. Post every hour. You are one of the few on this blog who knows how to ArTiCuLaTe thoughts. Keep 'em coming!
Jim| 10.17.11 @ 9:40AM
And so, Protestantism continues it's slow death march into hell. John Calvin and other "reformers" rejected the authority of the church built on the rock of Simon Peter, instead setting themselves up as individual arbiters of the Truth. Now, like the frog in the ever-increasing hot-water pot, there are those who are surprised that their leaders are guiding them to damnation. Each year brings new sinfulness, greater despair. Repent and turn away, before it's too late.
Anthony| 10.17.11 @ 10:25AM
Shhhhhh Mr.Tooley, the faculty at Duke and the students have been led to believe that Mr. James Duke is not holding a cigar, but rather a large blunt.
How's America's team doing by the way, the real America's team, Duke Lacrosse? Maybe Nifong can become team trainer and the infamous Duke 66 faculty can wash their jocks.
Hope those former lacrosse players who took Duke to the financial cleaners, as part of their legal settlement, sponsor a few faculty chairs.
Petronius| 10.17.11 @ 10:55AM
Were Mr Duke alive today, he wouldn't be allowed to smoke his stogie on campus but he could use coeds as humidors ala Clinton.
Where's Oliver Cromwell when we need him?
Anthony| 10.17.11 @ 11:41AM
Ah yes, the Clinton humidor. No doubt about it folks, America's "first non-Muslim black president" sure did elevate America's cultural and moral standards.
Vidi.....Veni...... Hey girl, get that dress to the cleaners.
Julian| 10.17.11 @ 12:21PM
Mr. Tooley's point seems to be that both Reformation divines and U.S. political leaders of an earlier age would disapprove of Duke's policy with regard to the use of its chapel for same-sex weddings. So what? As several people have pointed out, Martin Luther was no friend of the Jews. Many founding fathers, including the quasi-Unitarian Jefferson, owned slaves. We now abhor both prejudices. Do we choose charity or condemnation? That is the question.
Philip of Macedonia| 10.17.11 @ 1:33PM
Thank you, Julian, for your salient thoughts. I see we have a few intelligent posters on here today.
Occam's Tool| 10.17.11 @ 1:20PM
I believe in Civil Unions for gays, which should allow for hospital visitation, health insurance details, etc..
However,the institution of marriage is crumbling, with catastrophic results for our children. Not one Western European country has a replacement birthrate. This is a problem.
GW| 10.17.11 @ 2:02PM
A return to a Jeffersonian ideal about homosexuality (i.e. punish it as a crime) is more in the direction I would like to see, but you are spot on about birthrates being the bigger problem.
Unless Western, intelligent, and native (white) people are going to reproduce, defend their borders, and teach Western values--whatever "gains" made by the gay-lobby will be erased whence Europe is overrun by Muslims and the US with Mestizos. I can't see this world being nicer for homosexuals than the US of the 1950s was. Ironically, secularists and homosexuals in Europe fought against the values that maintained that society, and if ultimately successful--will have no one left to defend them from the greater evils of Islam.
Stu| 10.17.11 @ 4:26PM
Yes, fundamentalist Islam is more evil by far than Christianity.
But there are Christians who easily fit into the evil category. Like the radical Islamists, they are intolerant and preach hate.
The loving grace of Christ holds no appeal to the fundalentalist Christian mind, who is in it all for one thing: the pie in the sky by and by, as C Smith's post so revealingly illustrates.
Margie| 10.17.11 @ 8:20PM
Well, Stuey, Jesus commands you to repent and believe the Gospel of God.
I suppose you find Him hateful as well?
"..the time is fulfilled, and the Kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the Gospel." Mk. 1:15.
RCV| 10.18.11 @ 1:12AM
Jesus said not a word about homosexuality. He was much more concerned with humans who usurp God's role of judging the sins of others. He was quite clear about the consequences of doing that.
Reprobate Charlatan Vomitus| 10.18.11 @ 11:44AM
I don't bother with silly being a pathetic and despicable liar while once again ignoring that Jesus said "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law and the Prophets" thereby easily proving to one and all the magnitude of how pathetic and despicable a pathetic and despicable liar I am on once again being a pathetic and despicable douchebag asswipe and an overall pathetic and despicable idiot at least AFTER I've been pathetically and despicably born matters.
Nick| 10.18.11 @ 12:47PM
RCV,
Are you trying to imply that Christ didn't find homosexual acts abominable? Just because the Gospels don't record Christ specifically addressing homosexual acts, as Saint Paul did, doesn't mean He was okay with them. Or, that He was silent on the subject.
First, since you believe that Christ was God, when God gives Moses the statutes against homosexual acts, it is the second Person of the Trinity speaking, the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ.
Second, Christ said this: "You have heard that it was said to them of old: You shall not commit adultery. But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, has already committed adultery with her in his heart." - Matthew 5:27-28
Since, in Christ time, there was no Jewish movement for same-sex "marriage", adultery referred to sex outside of marriage. This would have been the perfect time for Christ to say that homosexual acts were okay, no?
Finally, Christ also said this: "But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. For this cause, a man shall leave his father and mother and shall cleave to his wife. And they two shall be in one flesh. Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man put asunder." - Mark 10:6-9
Now, wasn't this another opportune time for Christ to say that homosexual counterfeit marriage was morally justified? No, He says that it was God's plan, "from the beginning," for men and women to pledge themselves to each other in matrimony and to have children. Homosexuals can't do this, because God never intended for there to be sexual activity outside of marriage.
God has been perfectly clear, for thousands of years, about the morality of homosexual acts. Nothing has changed the immorality of such behavior.
Nick| 10.18.11 @ 2:37PM
Oops! That should be: "First, since you believe that Christ is God."
Petronius| 10.18.11 @ 2:17AM
GW
You've been reading The God's of the Copybook Headings.
Today's 20 somethings want to party and kids cost too much. But long term the problem is deeper than that. Why should intelligent white people reproduce when both government and cultural institutions hold them in contempt, view them as an entity to be subjugated, and condemn them for their personal ambitions of success?
Publius| 10.17.11 @ 3:04PM
Excellent article, Mr. Tooley. Secularism has replaced Chistianity as the de facto religion on campus with predictably sad results.
Norma| 10.17.11 @ 3:11PM
The question was ,"What would Robert E. Lee think of it's (Duke) defense of same sex marriage?"
I would never, never presume to speak for General Lee. Reading his quotes and letters, as I often do, leads me to a supposed conclusion.
Not addressing the question of sexuality, but showing his understanding of change, I quote him here.
"True patriotism sometimes requires of men to act exactly contrary, at one period, to that which it does at another, and the motive which impels them-the desire to do right-is precisely the same. The circumstances which govern their actions change; and their conduct must conform to the new order of things." (Letter to Gen. Beauregard, 3Oct 1865)
I believe him to be a man of high morals and respectful of his fellow men. I have always admired his devotion to duty, education, laws and character. He was a pragmatic man. He believed in forgiveness and strength to let the past be the past. He believed in a peaceful existance.
Otang O Tang| 10.17.11 @ 4:29PM
A thought-provoking point about Lee, Norma.
Thanks for the contribution.
Quartermaster| 10.17.11 @ 5:46PM
The H8 of straight crowd is out in force today.
Lee was addressing the fact of the northern conquest and his statement has utterly no application to the quest of the queer crowd for affirmation of their perversions.
God's moral standards do not change. He said in His word that all forms of sexual deviance were an abomination to Him. It didn't matter if it were boy and girl, boy and boy, or girl and girl. Only one man married to one woman for life met his standard. You may get man's laws changed to bless your perversion, but it cuts no ice with God.
You can rave about the "injustice" now, but when you face God, as we all must, then you will hear the most depressing words of all eternity, "depart from me you worker of lawlessness, I never knew you."
Otang O Tang| 10.17.11 @ 6:34PM
You can worship this God of hate if you like.
I certainly will not. Why? Because the God of the Bible is often a cruel, bloody tyrant. Yet so many of you call him a "loving" God.
Take a look at the savagery promoted by God. The Bible is chock full of it. Barbarism. That's what it is.
Margie| 10.17.11 @ 8:28PM
Quartermaster:
How dare you speak God's truth here. You'd better watch out. Richard Baker will soon begin accusing you of thinking you're better than everyone else!
The taunts of bigotry will then follow.
Madge| 10.17.11 @ 9:47PM
Margie, I do hope you have acted in Christian spirit and apologised to Ken, Old Texican, for the foaming-at-the-mouth vitriol you poured on him right here on this blog.
May God be for give you. And Peace be with you, sister.
Norma| 10.17.11 @ 8:23PM
To Quartermaster: I was clear that General Lee's quote was not regarding sexuality and gave the origionation for the quote. I was simply answering the "question" of the article by associating REL's remarkable morals, character and tolerance. He stood for respect not hate. I was sharing my thoughts regarding this remarkable man.
Margie| 10.17.11 @ 8:44PM
In other (GREAT) news:
Drudge Reporting:
POLL: CAIN 43% OBAMA 41%
http://www.rasmussenreports.co.....l_matchups
MooCow| 10.17.11 @ 9:51PM
How about Cain 43% and Abel 41%. And why did Cain slay Abel? Why? Why? Why? And why are there so many groups of threes in the Bible? And sevens?
Just curious.
POST American| 10.17.11 @ 11:01PM
---------------------FINAL WORD-----------------------
Hurl the Freemason, Arminian Heretic
front ops ---BILLY GRAHAM ---PAT ROBERTSON
---AL SHARPTON ---JESSE JACKSON
et al from Christian ranks.
-------------CLEAN
-------------------OUT
-------------------------YOUR CHURCHES
Clean 'em out --or you yourself clear out.
Scripture tells us, again and again,
GOD's vessel is ever a remnant.
------------------------REJOICE!-------------------------
RND| 10.18.11 @ 2:22AM
The year is 1982. To be more precise, the fall of 1982.
I am getting -- gradually -- letters from a highschool sweetheart that is now a freshman. She's a real serious type, very studious, focused.
However, she quickly runs into a problem in her dorm room. Seems her roomate (roomate by lottery or happenstance, not by choice) keeps locking the door (at all hours of the day) to screw whatever male is her fancy flavor of the day.
I don't know about you, but this would get a bit iritating real fast. Complaints to RA, RD, and up the Duke -- yes Duke (imagine that?) chain of authority bring naught. Seems it is just fine for a Dukie freshman female to be screwing her daylights out in the dorm week after week.
So, please, Mr. Tooley, bag the pretensions of Duke U. being anything remotely faith-minded. It's as secular humanist as any other liberal screwed up institution.
Certainly no place to send a good student or waste one's money.