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Article
Reflections on Amanda Knox
The Lifetime movie certainly didn’t do her justice.
Amanda Knox returned home to Seattle Tuesday to the kind of reception normally reserved for championship sports teams. A cheering chorus of billboard-waving supporters greeted her at Seattle-Tacoma International Airport shortly after 5 pm Pacific. Local schoolchildren cheered in their classrooms when her acquittal was announced, and the message “WELCOME HOME AMANDA” was plastered on the record-store marquee in her pleasant West Seattle neighborhood. It was a sharp contrast to the scene in Italy, where a crowd gathered outside the Perugia courthouse for the overturning of her 2009 murder conviction to chant “Vergogna! Vergogna!” — meaning “shame.” That contrast in public opinion, and the lingering confusion over what actually happened in Knox’s Perugia cottage in November 2007, is agonizing. The Los Angeles Times declared that the “Reversal of Amanda Knox verdict won’t quell debate,” and even victim Meredith Kerchner’s family seemed more mystified than outraged. “If the two released yesterday were not the guilty parties,” asked brother Lyle Kercher, “we are obviously left to wonder who is the other guilty person or people?”
Something happened, and in the court of public opinion the fact that something unseemly was going on is usually evidence enough to convict. According to Italian prosecutors, Amanda Knox and her then-boyfriend Rafaelle Sollecito engaged in copious drug use and group sex, and when the dust cleared Knox’s 21-year old roommate Kercher was dead of a knife wound to the throat. Knox was placed in an Italian prison to await trial, convicted, sentenced to 26 years to Sollecito’s 25, and incarcerated for four years prior to her and Sollecito’s acquittals on appeal. Four years, between ages 20 and 24, that she will never get back.
If she is truly innocent, and African-born interloper Rudy Guede in fact carried out the crime himself, then Knox’s parents were correct, and understated, in labeling the matter a miscarriage of justice. Then again, if she is truly innocent, then what to make of her allegations against her former employer, Italian bar owner Patrick Lumumba, who was locked up for two weeks following Knox’s claim that he entered Kercher’s room prior to the murder? That was a lie, still unexplained, and enough to earn Knox a still-upheld conviction for slander.
The inevitable Lifetime movie, which premiered in February and now runs constantly on the cable network, dares not guess at what happened. Starring Hayden Panettiere as the fresh-faced Knox and Marcia Gay Harden (the De Niro to Lifetime’s Scorsese) as her mother, Amanda Knox: Murder on Trial in Italy excludes the murder scene. Screenwriter Wendy Battles (Law and Order) scripts Knox and Kercher walking down a flight of Perugia stairs whimsically talking about dashing doctor’s son Sollecito. A thin black actor meant to portray Guede smiles and waves at them as he walks up the stairs. The screen fades to black, and then picks up with the police investigation.
The movie depicts Perugia as a college-kid fantasyland, full of scenic buildings, parks, and alleyways. No mention is made of the local drug problem. The Umbria region, in which Perugia is located, sees the highest rate of drug-related deaths in all of Europe. The Umbrian drug mortality rate is three times the national average and the region boasts the most drug users per capita in Italy. Narconon reports that organized crime organizations and mafia groups have settled in, and North African immigrants like Guede form a sizable demographic. Whether this bolsters Knox’s claims of innocence (I’m reminded of the drug deal-gone-bad defense laid out by Team O.J.) or rather supports the prosecution’s accusations of rampant drug abuse, it is impossible to know.
Knox’s father raged on U.S. cable news during the trial that the Italian courts operate much differently than American ones. He was right. His daughter stood trial, twice, in an Italian court, before an Italian judge and Italian jury. Two Italian judges — tasked with “guiding” their fellow jurors — sat on the eight-member jury alongside six Italian citizens. The prosecutor, in Italian, called Knox a “satanic, diabolic, she-devil” and railed against her sex and drug use on moral grounds, in front of a jury that hails from an entirely different culture than Knox’s own. With the next quarter-century of her life hanging in the balance, Knox delivered her final statement in court in Italian. “It was said many times that I’m a different person from the way I look,” Knox slowly recited, “and that people cannot figure out who I am.” Of course people in that provincial Italian region couldn’t figure out who she was. They had no cultural reference point.
The Lifetime movie, it has been announced, will be updated to reflect the recent changes in the story. Though I can’t help but worry these updates will alter Lifetime’s original artistic vision, I’m moderately fascinated to watch the new scenes. Like the part where Panettiere comes home to adoring fanfare and presumed multi-million dollar book and interview deals while a black man of whom little is publicly known spends sixteen years behind bars. Is that part just? Again, it’s impossible to know.
When analyst Nina Burleigh told Anderson Cooper that Knox was far more educated than anyone else in her Italian prison, the class-based element of the case became clear. While Casey Anthony was attractive but still a confessed Target shopper, Knox is a bilingual daughter of privilege with a first-rate education. While so many slain young women you see on the news are 3.5 honor students and sorority presidents at some state college, Kercher was a beautiful prep school-educated London journalist’s daughter. Sollecito was a handsome young intellectual, and Guede — the media-labeled “drifter” — was not only black, he was African. The Murder on Trial screenplay was probably already sitting there on Wendy Battles’ screenwriting software as “Default Script #1.”
Here’s what we know: we know that an upper middle-class white American student went to Perugia to study abroad. We know that she met a guy, might have had a wild night, and that her roommate ended up dead. We know that an innocent Italian bar owner was subjected to the worst experience of his life. We know that angry Italians, at this precarious point in the history of America’s relationship with the rest of the world, stood outside the courthouse when Knox was acquitted and chanted “Shame!” We know that there’s a lot of shame involved, but we still don’t know exactly who should bear it. I doubt the inevitable books — like the movie — will clear up anything.
And America will move on from the “Study Abroad Killer,” and wait patiently for the next one.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (148) | Leave a comment
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Appleby| 10.5.11 @ 7:27AM
My Southern granny would have said, *She knows the truth and God knows it too.* She hasnt gotten away with anything, and the older she gets, the more she will realize this.
One more person who Had It All, including rich parents to shield her from the consequences of evil ... for a time ...
Whether or not she committed this crime, she knows who did, and now the tar will stick to her as long as she lives. And God knows too.
USSAlabama| 10.5.11 @ 9:41AM
Reminded me of the Lockerbie Bomber arriving in Libya. She will never outlive it.
Many details were never reported in any US media. Enough evidence without 'flawed' DNA to have been convicted here on the home soil.
Kenny| 10.5.11 @ 7:31AM
The article says little to nothing.
George True| 10.5.11 @ 9:28AM
Agreed. This is a bizarre and disjointed article. It meanders here and there, engages in random speculation, reaches no conclusion, and makes no point. I would expect better from an assistant editor at TAS.
j.h.| 10.5.11 @ 10:04AM
Little to nothing? Ditto.
j.h.| 10.5.11 @ 10:19AM
All of Meredith's friends were shocked at Amanda's behavior after the murder.
Here's one example from Newsweek:
Meredith’s friend Amy Frost was deeply offended by Amanda’s conduct when they were together at the police station on the day of the murder, waiting be questioned. “Amanda put her feet up on Raffaele’s legs and made faces at him,” she later told the court. “Everyone cried except Amanda and Raffaele. They were kissing each other.” Another of Meredith’s friends, Natalie Hayward, remarked to the small group of grieving friends at the station that she hoped Meredith hadn’t suffered much, to which Amanda replied, “What do you fucking think? She fucking bled to death.”
This is just one example of many that I could cite.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:30AM
JH, when I've gone through trauma in the past, I always tried to joke my way out of it. It was my way of coping. I understand that this is offensive to people so I keep my mouth shut.
It's ironic that even as the police hypothesized that Knox did some weed, went reefer mad, and then helped a drifter and her boyfriend murder a roommate that it doesn't occur to people that it's possible that people under trauma may say stupid things. Did you ever have an experience where trauma caused you to say things that weren't true or act strangely?
MM| 10.5.11 @ 12:33PM
Trauma could cause people to say things they later regret - sure.
Especially the kind of trauma she had just been through. Not the trauma of having spent the night at her boyfriends house.
The Italians may have chanted "Shame" but they said it best - "Better to let a guilty person walk free than to keep an innocent person in jail." And likely, they did.
Jase| 10.5.11 @ 3:39PM
Better for whom? The future victims of the guilty?
Drunken Sailor| 10.5.11 @ 12:49PM
Gallows humor. Seen it, done it, and yes it throws people off. But if you look at that person closely enough the body language will tell you they are feeling differently than they are verbalizing.
Mazzuchelli| 10.5.11 @ 4:00PM
It doesn't take trauma to make me or anyone else say something stupid. And, no one can look at someone else and determine that they are guilty. I hope she's not. Regardless, the Italian justice system is a joke.
Pete| 10.5.11 @ 11:56AM
But no, you don't get it. It's a thoughtful article on the ambiguity of truth, reminding us that our justice systems in Italy and at home are imperfect, albeit, presumably, the best we have or if you prefer the ones we deserve.
Sparky| 10.5.11 @ 1:56PM
No, really it's not. It is a meandering, pointless rumination that disregards much of what we do know about the case.
Trinacria| 10.5.11 @ 3:21PM
Have to side with Sparky on this one. Read it. Shrugged. Asked myself, what the hell was that all about?
If I want meandering thoughts on the ambiguity of truth, I'll read Descartes.
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 3:31PM
Descartes, LOL :)
Curmudgeon | 10.9.11 @ 9:42PM
I think that is the point. We just don't know....
MacDaddy| 10.5.11 @ 7:34AM
This case and Casey Anthony's seem to make the following point: Apparently, if you are young, female, attractive and white....you CAN get away with murder. She is as guilty as sin. And the previous poster is right....she WILL have to deal with it the rest of her life....and then stand before God and try to justify it. Nothing but a spoiled, murdering tramp
Mike Hawk| 10.5.11 @ 8:41AM
Attractive??? Casey Anthoy certainly isn't and this twit may have some 'cute' depending on the camera angle, but both are seriously screwed up, morally deficient psychos.
Occam's Tool| 10.5.11 @ 1:22PM
I don't know. I have a deep distrust of lawyers, juries, and judges. The Powerline blog lawyers believe the case was fatally flawed. I thought that was a good article.
Deborah D | 10.5.11 @ 3:41PM
I agree -- I keep coming back to "motive." "Reefer mad"? Bizarre.
JJC| 10.5.11 @ 9:47AM
Just how do you know this? You were not there. I was not there. I don't know what happened and neither, sir, do you.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:01AM
Bottom line: If this case had been tried in the states, and even if she was a man, there is sufficient doubt to convict. Acting suspiciously and trying to get the police off your back by naming another suspect is NOT the same proving guilt. From what I've read (and granted, not a lot), this sounds like a case of "well, this COULD have happened and she was acting suspiciously and she accused an innocent man so she's guilty."
I'm on her side on this.
The local Italian police were hurling out theories and then discarding them. She went "reefer mad" which is a joke to anyone who knows the slightest bit about weed (it makes people lazy). She had a drug fueled orgy. So why just sexual DNA from one suspect?
Nonetheless, this case along with Casey Anthony's is exposing the fact that white women get a lot of breaks in the criminal justice system that non-white women don't get.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:09AM
Doh! I mean sufficient doubt to ACQUIT!
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:10AM
Doh! I mean sufficient doubt to ACQUIT!
MM| 10.5.11 @ 12:36PM
Do you want to read some of the evidence that had nothing to do with DNA? Like the receipts and testimony from the village store owner for the bleach purchased by the two (Knox and Solecito) after they waited at the door of the shop the next morning for him to open?
She would have been convicted here.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 2:03PM
After googling:
http://aklwei.wordpress.com/20.....he-bleach/
"Early on in the trial, there were news articles that receipts were found showing bleach purchased the morning of the 2nd, when the body was found. These early reports were inaccurate. Reportedly, a receipt was found at sollecito’s, but later reports indicate this receipt was dated significantly prior to the muder. Two bottles of bleach, one unopened, were apparently found at sollecito’s."
In any case, it doesn't make sense. Why go to the trouble of buying bleach to clean sneakers and a knife AND go back to buy more? Why not, say, just throw away the things?
I'm reminded of the beginning of the film "My Cousin Vinny".
Occam's Tool| 10.5.11 @ 1:24PM
OK---one can go psychotic in an agitated fashion on MJ, depending on potency and susceptibility. My friend, you haven't lived until you've had to talk down a psychotic face tattooed Maori whose only finding on urine drug screen was THC.
But Capital cases need Capital evidence.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 2:05PM
Hmmm, good point OC (thanks for the clarification). Additional observation/question: How longs does THC stay in the system and I think it can be tested via hair? The police could have determined if this was a factor in her system if they wanted to.
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 3:41PM
THC in system a month or more. Hair folicle test shopws 90 to 120 days depending on hair length of course. Why you may ask are so many druggies showing shaved heads?
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 8:42PM
A friend of mine whose an auto mechanic had to give a hair sample for a custody issue. He was a heavy pot smoker and bought this shampoo off the internet. Yeah, I know, along with penis enlargement pills! :-)
Anyways, he claims it worked and passed the test.
Michael| 10.7.11 @ 1:06AM
If this case were tried in the states, it would never have made it to a jury.
Melvin| 10.5.11 @ 7:35AM
As I had said before, "There are three people that know exactly what happened that night. One is in prison, one is out on appeal, and one has flown to the United States to become a very, very rich woman.
To be sure Ms. "Foxy Knoxy," knows of whom killed Meredith.
But with many young people who get involved in fun that goes wrong have taken a vow of silence. Leaving much to conjecture.
I saw this in my dealing with young Marines in the latter part of my career. When I had to investigate them for unauthorized absence, drinking where they shouldn't supposed to, petty theft. I would call them into my office and a dead give away from the start is that the guilty party will not look at me directly. I have always lived by the mouth will lie to you every time, but the eyes tell the truth.
Just like Ms. Knox, these Marines who wanted out of the Marine Corps no matter what, pointed the finger as someone else, then outright denial, ending up lastly when I found that there was sufficient evidence to get NIS involved. Then these kids told NIS investigators that I set them up.
My personal opinion of this is, the charge shouldn't have been murder, but manslaughter. No on intended anyone to die that night, but it was a drug, alcohol fueled orgy that went wrong.
By all appearances Ms. Knox lived a very,very sheltered protected life in Liberal Seattle. Went to Liberal Italy and went buck wild. Same thing with certain Marines in the Corps, a seasoned Marine could tell right off who the sheltered young men were.
They were the ones who went out in town, spent they're whole paycheck at one club and fall in love with the first topless dancer they're eyes fall upon. I can't even begin to tell you how emotional messes I had been tasked to clean up.
Ole_Sarge| 10.5.11 @ 9:24AM
It was NO DIFFERENT in the USAF either!
As to Ms. Knox, I was raised like "Appleby," I do believe that at a point in our lives, we do have to give an account of all we did and did not do.
Jase| 10.5.11 @ 3:19PM
Do you judge every court case by 'the same thing happened with the marines'? Try availing yourself of the facts of the case. Knox is innocent.
oldfart| 10.5.11 @ 7:54AM
The incompetence of the Italian judicial system, including the police, is a contributing factor to the fact that the truth will never come out. I also believe, as a previous poster stated, that Ms. Cox was out to ‘party hardy’ and things got out of control. She found herself in a situation where mommy and daddy could not protect her. As Ms. Casey Anthony found out – there are consequences to our actions.
Melvin| 10.5.11 @ 8:00AM
I also think a large part of this is, that the Italian government wanted to wash their hands of Ms.Knox. She was one of those rashes that government want to go away, but every time this girl got in-front of a camera, she turned on the innocent doe eyed virgin charm.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:31AM
After decades of women getting away with murder, literally, in the states and western Europe and legal infant abandonment centers being built while unwed mothers can live off of welfare, the backlash is that sometimes innocent women are assumed to be playing the innocent card. It's like boy crying wolf.
Herman| 10.5.11 @ 8:09AM
It must have been a Colombian drug cartel.
Dan Hirsch| 10.5.11 @ 9:56AM
Wait a minute!!!! This happened during GW Bush's term. Bush did it!
DTOM
Timothy L. Pennell| 10.5.11 @ 8:09AM
Like, Sean Connery, in the UNTOUCHABLES Movie, when he asks Elliot Ness: "Why ya packing a gun?"
Ness replies: "I'm a Federal Agent."
When Connery accepts his explanation, and lets him go on his way, the Ness character (Kevin Costner) stops him, asking him WHY he would just let him walk away like that.
Connery responds: "You're a Federal Agent."
Ness: "How do you know that?"
Connery: "You said so."
Ness: "I could be lying."
And then Connery's character says something remarkable, in it's COMMON SENSE: "Who would claim to be that, who wasn't?"
Indeed.
Amanda Knox told Italian Police, that she was in the house, when all of this happened. Later on, she claimed that the Police had beaten it out of her.
Her nose doesn't look broken. She still has all of her teeth, as far as I can tell. And, she's not walking with a limp.
She told Police that she was THERE when this all went down.
"Who would claim to be there, who was not?"
Capiche?
mcr| 10.5.11 @ 10:09AM
To clarify, she only said she was in the house after the police interrogated her for 55 hours straight, with no breaks/sleep
loulou| 10.5.11 @ 10:24AM
She was involved. She left a bloody footprint.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:49AM
http://aklwei.wordpress.com/20.....ootprints/
"Are the footprints proven to be blood if revealed by luminol? No, not without additional testing of the substance, which can be difficult if the substance has been so diluted that it can only be revealed with Luminol. "
In other words, she could have walked on a carpet after it was cleaned.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:55AM
I'm reminded of a case I saw on TV about two American guys busted for smuggling cocaine after police in a South American airport tested their handy-wipes. It came up "positive" and they yelled "Coca-ine! Coca-ine!" and arrested them on the spot, threw them into jail, and were going to sentence them to 10 years. The American consulate barely did anything for them.
It turned out that the chemical in the handi-wipes caused a false positive in the cocaine test.
Luminal glows on a footprint? It MUST be blood! It could NEVER react with ANYTHING else!
Drunken Sailor| 10.5.11 @ 12:59PM
It reacts to Ammonia. Hell when I was over there half the ladies cleaned their tile floors with it daily.
Luminol is a good indicator but not 100% accurate
Doctor Right| 10.5.11 @ 3:24PM
Luminol reacts with ANY biologic material...including blood AND...semen.
I saw a expose a few years back on hotels. They sprayed Luminol and turned off the lights.
There were "stains" everywhere. It was pretty gross. I guess we can thank the introduction of pay-per-view "Spank-travision" for that.
And these were 4 and 5-star hotels, too. If you're in a Motel 6...watch out!
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 4:43PM
Had a court case where Liminol reacted to...
are you ready for it...?
Tomato sauce.
MM| 10.5.11 @ 12:40PM
Yeah, but the shop keeper where she and boyfriend purchased bleach and cleaning supplies first thing next morning was not interrogated for 55 hours.
Plus, that receipt for the supplies also had not been interrogated for 55 hours.
They dumped them.
Mister Grady| 10.6.11 @ 12:49AM
You're an idiot. Those were early false reports.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:09AM
The untouchables was a lousy movie, IMO. I heard stories about the Mexican police who engaged in a variety of clever tortures that wouldn't leave marks. Hit the suspect with a phone book. Or use a "diet coke": Hold the person's mouth shut and open a can under their nose and the acid goes right into their lungs.
I doubt that kind of torture was needed on her. They probably just kept her up all night without feeding her, asked her repeated questions and accused her of inconsistencies (which happens when someone is tired and guessing at answers) and she got desperate and made something up to get them to leave her alone.
It does happen.
Here's another thing to consider: Knox is blamed for this false accusation that happened under police interrogation while she didn't have a lawyer and an ability to think rationally. She was still convicted of making a false accusation though. (Which I wish happened more in the states where deliberate false rape accusations are made all the time.)
However, consider this: What excuse do the police have to arrest an innocent man with little evidence other than the say-so of some tired woman? Hmmm? Yeah, it's all HER fault the police locked up some innocent guy which begs the question that if the police were so quick to lock up one innocent man, what makes us think it doesn't happen all the time there? Hmmm?
I'm the last man here to cut women slack because of chivalry so it means something when I say that the case against Knox is faulty to the point of probable innocence.
ECM| 10.6.11 @ 12:21AM
Sooo, any and all circumstantial evidence against her is invalid (as you've gone out, at length, in this thread), but it's likely the cops 'tortured' her (be it w/ Diet Coke or sleep deprivation) w/o any proof of such? I don't really know/care what happened here, but you need to, perhaps, apply the same standards across the board, rather than selectively when trying to prove your point.
PolishKnight| 10.6.11 @ 9:54AM
ECM, I was merely responding to the claim that torture was impossible since she didn't have marks. And yes, if we apply the standard to Knox, that consistency is the mark of honesty, then the Italian police fail.
When people "break" and start babbling, that's not evidence of guilt. It's evidence they've broken down. Indeed, if someone is making up a bunch of stories just to get out of interrogation, then the police shouldn't have arrested an innocent man on that kind of evidence. Right?
PaulyD| 10.5.11 @ 11:52AM
Actually, she gave THREE stories.
1. She first said she wasn't there, she was at her boyfriend's apartment. When the police checked out this story, it fell apart, because telephone records and witnesses placed her at her apartment.
2. Then she said her boss, the restaurant owner, did it. After two weeks investigating him, he was completely cleared (he had solid alibis). Hence the subsequent slander judgment against her by her boss.
3. Then she said she was there and she heard the murder taking place, but covered her ears. But she never reported it. What she and her boyfriend reported was a "staged" burglary.
She is as guilty as hell. The Italians botched it.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 12:09PM
1. The witness was a homeless woman who gave conflicting stories.
2. The police were going to throw him into jail if he didn't have a solid alibi. Obviously, without a solid alibi, anyone accused it guilty as hell.
3. She told three stories and the police wanted more after hours of questioning without a lawyer. If she confessed to killing the pope, then the pope was probably murdered because a confession can't be false, can it?
PaulyD| 10.5.11 @ 12:17PM
A lawyer would have told her not to say anything. The Italians don't have the same constitutional protections we do. Intensive questioning (without torture) is a standard police tactic to get a subject to "crack." Innocent people don't crack like that, unless they actually are tortured.
Guilty people tell inconsistent stories because they can't keep the lies straight. Her stories collapsed under subsequent investigation that took weeks. She had ample time to come up with a consistent narrative, if it were the truth.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 12:28PM
I have a woman here I hypothetically questioned about a terrorist incident at the airport who revealed she knows something about a murder. And I didn't even get her into an interrogation room!
Let's try reversing this logic: If she was such an unorganized fool who couldn't decide which lie she was going to tell, then doesn't that conflict with the prosecutor's claim that she cleaned up the crime scene without removing the DNA evidence of the only clear perpetrator? If a criminal doesn't "crack" then, does that mean they're innocent?
In addition, PaulyD, what about the guy held for 2 weeks? You know, the one Knoxy "put" there. Shouldn't the police have been able to clear that up in 2 days after the "innocent" guy failed to "crack?"
PaulyD| 10.5.11 @ 12:38PM
I give up. We'll just leave it in God's hands.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 1:51PM
I suppose I should come clean and say that I was interrogated by police several times. In two cases, because I worked night shift, I was in the wrong place at the wrong time and the police stopped and interrogated me. I didn't panic not because I knew I was innocent, blah blah blah, but because I was professional, knew they were doing their jobs, and moved on quickly. But in one case, they really tried to grill me and make me uncomfortable and see if I would crack. Ironically, because I had done stuff before (student pranks) and learned how to deal with law enforcement officials, it helped.
If I was some innocent kid, I might have gotten detained in the very least.
Later on, I sat on a jury where some poor guy, a minority, was being threatened with being sent up the river over an argument with his girlfriend gone bad (she hit him and he hit back) and the jurors were openly saying that a man couldn't hit a woman back for any reason and the judge didn't dismiss them.
So I'm the last person to coddle Knox due to her gender but also I appreciate how the police in their zeal to solve and prosecute a case may wind up building something out of nothing. I've seen it firsthand. FYI, when I found out I was an alternate on the case, I told the judge I couldn't serve because I felt it was a total BS case that a reputable prosecutor wouldn't even waste the courts' time with. Instant dismissal from duty. Woo hoo!
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 2:12PM
Keats got it all wrong with that "truth is beauty, beauty truth" nonsense.
Drunken Sailor| 10.5.11 @ 2:43PM
Beauty can hide a evil heart, Al. I agree with you on that one.
Mister Grady| 10.6.11 @ 12:56AM
You are ignorant. It is a documented fact that quite a number of innocent people have made false confessions. It CAN happen. It DOES happen.
scythe| 10.5.11 @ 7:26PM
Completely agree with your conclusion. There is something not quite right with that young woman. At the very least she knew what happened and has kept quiet to protect herself. If she were innocent, wouldn't she report what she knew, if only to aid the police in finding the true murderer and help the victim's family find some measure of peace? She is loathsome and the fact that she was greeted by hordes of supporters cheering her freedom and will probably make a fortune selling the story is repugnant. Hope she is haunted for the rest of her life, but it won't happen. That would mean she has a conscience.
Claypoole| 10.5.11 @ 8:21AM
For an informative look at Italian police procedure and the Italian justice system, read "The Monster of Florence," a nonfiction account of a serial murderer, as yet uncaught. Can't remember the author, sorry, but a reader may conclude that Amanda Knox's father is right.
Claypoole| 10.5.11 @ 8:24AM
The authors of "The Monster of Florence" are Douglas Preston and Mario Spezi.
Vern Crisler | 10.5.11 @ 9:41AM
We all know it was Dick Cheney and Haliburton that commited the murder. Wall Street and Big Banks, too. And if Rick Perry can write N-head on a rock, there's no telling what Rick's part was in this crime. Just you readers listen to Michael Moore; he's got the truth about all this. . . .
Andrew B| 10.5.11 @ 10:00AM
The case seems to be muddled and poorly handled by the Italian legal system. Still, nothing Miss Knox did seemed to be the actions of an innocent person. She lied repeatedly, accused and innocent man, turned cartwheels while a suspect in a friend's murder and generally acted like a person without a conscience.
If that is how an innocent person acts, how will we ever identify the guilty?
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:23AM
There was an interesting case on TV about a woman who was raped, beaten almost to death, stuffed in a suitcase, and then thrown out in a field. She told the police she thought that the crime was committed by 2 white men who forced her out of the hotel.
It turns out that a PI found that story was totally imagined on her part due to trauma. It was a black man who was a serial rapist.
When the police first opened the investigation, they thought she was a prostitute making the whole thing up. Her story didn't work and didn't match the evidence. Only because she filed a lawsuit against the hotel did the hotel hire the PI who solved the case. If left to the police, it would be unsolved to this day.
In other words, Andrew, traumatized women (and men) sometimes say stupid things.
Keep in mind that even though she did "lie", the police didn't mind it and arrested that innocent man. But hey, they're police so it's ok, right?
It's interesting how this case is similar to the Duke LaCrosse player case. A stripper accuses a bunch of white guys of rape and they're picked up and thrown into jail before the police even bother to check up on their stories and ask the bank to see if the guy made the ATM withdrawal, etc. In THAT case, only the DA was fired and it's unclear where the police have learned anything about arresting a guy first and asking questions later...
Carol| 10.5.11 @ 10:03AM
I think Knox is guilty.
Does anyone remember Meredith Kerchner was murdered?
On the news yesterday they all made it sound like Knox was the victim and should be celebrated. I think she should go into hiding like Casey Anthony.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:16AM
Let's work with the facts and build a theory on that and see if it works, ok. Ready? The only clearly guilty person, a man whose DNA proved he committed sexual assault (a rapist) and a thief and a disreputable person went in and attacked the woman. He says that there were other people who "helped" and that Knox was involved but he's clearly guilty so his opinion is untrustworthy. For all we know, he could have easily had accomplices who are unknown at this time (yes, there are OTHER people in Italy who could have helped him!)
So, using that fact, the theory is that this drifter whom Knox and her boyfriend didn't hang out with just suddenly proposed group sex with this other student and she said no and they murdered her. Does that make any sense? Yes, strange things happen but this is a theory that doesn't have any strong evidence going for it.
Doctor Right| 10.5.11 @ 10:42AM
Thinking Knox is guilty is one thing.
Proving it is another. The evidence against her was so thin it was transparent.
Yes, Meredith Kerchner was murdered. In case you didn't notice, the guy who killed her (Rudy Guede) confessed, and he's in jail.
Amanda Knox WAS a victim of sloppy police work and a justice system that would rather condemn a young girl than admit that they were wrong, and that their investigators were sloppy.
Southerner| 10.6.11 @ 11:38AM
Meridith Kercher was murdered. The actual murderer is currently in jail, for 16 years. Mr. Perugia's semen was found inside Ms. Kercher. His DNA was all over her, her bed, and throughout the room. His BLOODY HANDPRINT was on her pillow. His bloody footprints were in the room.
What we don't know is whether the other two (knox and Sollecito) were involved, and if so how, or whenther they had knowledge of the crime that they concealed.
Granny Jan| 10.5.11 @ 10:12AM
There are no meds for psychopaths like Amanda and psychiatry doesn't work for these types of personality disorders.
Her behavior before and after the murder was bizarre. She might not kill again but she'll lead a miserable existence, never form good relationships and make everyone around her miserable....I hope.
Doctor Right| 10.5.11 @ 10:37AM
I'm sorry, but I have to laugh when people mentally convict someone based on their "behavior" after the traumatic incident.
To put it bluntly, how is one SUPPOSED to act when one's room-mate and friend is found brutally murdered?? And before you answer, make sure that you're speaking from experience, please.
Is crying and hysteria the required reaction? If so, how much crying and hysteria is enough? How much is too much? If someone laughs from all of the tension, does that mean they're automatically guilty???
If your assumption of her guilt is based on her reaction in the immediate hours and days after the crime, then you're being absolutely foolish. NO ONE who hasn't been in that situation knows how they would react, and if you say you do, you're wrong.
Doctor Right| 10.5.11 @ 10:40AM
I'd also like to add that your hope that Amanda Knox, a person whom you know precious little about, has a "miserable" life says more about you than it does about her...
...and none of it good.
Dan Hirsch| 10.5.11 @ 11:11AM
Doc;
I did hear some talking head mention that she was questioned continuously for 56 hours without counsel or a break...she's lucky she didn't admit to kidnapping the Lindbergh baby in 1928...
DTOM
PaulyD| 10.5.11 @ 2:15PM
She was questioned for a TOTAL of 53 hours spread out over a four day period.
Occam's Tool| 10.5.11 @ 1:26PM
I have seen people behave in multiple ways following severe trauma. I have no true "normal" on immediate behavior. I just protect if the behavior is dangerous to self or others...
Granny Jan| 10.5.11 @ 11:07AM
Bizarre Amanda behavior: she hugs and kiss her boyfriend outside the murder scene while the rest of her friends are crying. While her boyfriend is being interrogated she does cartwheels and splits and later sits on her boyfriend's lap.
Her affect in court is bizarre often flirting with boyfriend and wearing weird t-shirts. Prison diary odd. Wrote bloody, crazy story that parallels the murder in college.
Too bad she didn't get life in prison. A miserable life isn't good enough.
Doctor Right| 10.5.11 @ 11:53AM
Please read one of my earlier posts below regarding exactly how one is supposed to behave in such a situation.
SO...Exactly how is one supposed to behave in such a situation?????
Do you know??? Have you EVER been in such a situation???
So the fact that she hugged and kissed her boyfriend means she's guilty?!?! Gee...who should she seek comfort from????
And she sat on his lap?!?!? THROW THE BOOK AT HER!!!
Sorry, but you're being absurd.
Solo| 10.5.11 @ 4:54PM
I'm sorry, Doc, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one!
According to your logic, one can't imagine how a murderer might attempt to conceal his crime unless one has committed murder himself.
Perfectly absurd!
If you're innocent of such a brutal crime, you don't make up multiple stories about where you were and what you were doing.
You don't falsely accuse others as though you were a witness.
You don't fake a break in and then recant when forensic evidence proves you a liar.
You don't hang out in front of a store in the wee hours of the morning waiting for them to open so you can buy bleach to "wipe down" the crime scene.
Oh...and you don't turn "cartwheels" in the police station when you are being dragged in for questioning in a capital murder investigation!
This little twisted bitch is guilty as hell....and everyone with two sensory neurons to rub together knows it!
She may not have actually slit that poor girl's throat herself. But she damned well knows who did and ....she was there to celebrate it in a sex crazed, drugged out stupor.
And now....she's roaming free as a bird over a technicality.
Hell...she's even got her own little twisted fan club!
If there's a God in Heaven....she's going to burn in Hell!
Southerner| 10.6.11 @ 11:48AM
She's clearly a weird person. Her behaviors don't match what I would do. That doesn't make her guilty of murder. Maybe she lied about where she was because she and her boyfriend were at a drug dealers getting stoned? I could come up with lots of plausible alternatives for why someone would lie. The bottom line is, acting weird and suspicious is not sufficient evidence to convict someone.
Doctor Right| 10.5.11 @ 10:14AM
I lived in Italy for over a year, and I understand the Italian psyche. In that regard, I'm fairly confident in saying that Know was NOT helped over the last 4 years by American media coverage that continually portrayed the Italian police and investigators as Keystone Cops-type stumble-bums.
The fact that they WERE Keystone Cops-type stumble-bums is irrelevant.
Italy is a very chauvinistic, highly image-conscious society. This extends to obvious, outward signs like fashion (where Italians will break out the grey wools and flannels on the first day of Autumn regardless of whether or not it's 85 degrees) but it also extends inwardly to the sensitive issue of perception and how others regard you.
Unlike many Americans, Italians care deeply about what others think of them, even those who have no power over their lives, and seek to avoid embarrassing situations.
Saving-face is ALWAYS a priority for Italians. To that end, I distinctly remember a poll that was released in the 90's stating that most Italian men would actually rather kill their wives than grant them a divorce. Why?? Because to the delicate psyche of Italian males, the only reason a woman would ever want to divorce her husband is because he's a poor lover, and that is the ultimate insult. Yes, it sounds crazy to us...but not to them.
So it's not hard to imagine that Italians were embarrassed and humiliated by all the negative press they were receiving on the Knox case since it first emerged, and rather than admit they were wrong, they dug in their heels and insisted on a long, painful appeals process that enabled them to appear judicious, thoughtful, but above all, loyal to their own legal traditions.
This is also why so many Italians persist in their belief that Knox is guilty, despite all evidence to the contrary, and screamed "Shame! Shame!" at her as she was being released. Many of them know that her case exposed their justice system as sloppy, but by "shaming" her, they're subconsciously avoiding public introspection that may lead to reforms. Or, perhaps they're projecting...
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:35AM
I think the slander case was BS. Someone telling police something after hours of interrogation without a lawyer present is not reliable testimony and their jumping on it and arresting a guy and trying to railroad him into prison is not HER fault. It's the polices. So they projected blame for their own rush to justice on Knox.
That said, Doctor Right, if the American press had stayed out of it, it sounds as if the Italians would have covered this up the best way possible and that would have been to go with their story that she's a "liar" who caused the police to railroad an innocent man and so therefore she was guilty of "something".
It was a painful lesson but hopefully the Italian police will think twice before taking the sluggish ramblings of suspects after 50 hours of interrogation as gospel...
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 11:38AM
Self indulgent American hedonistic and international collegiate culture meets provincial Italy. The "rules don't apply" student culture we foster does no one any good. Our colleges and universities ( think Berkely or Madison) are repleat with it and these events are simply an extension of it. All very sad for everyone involved from the deceased to the perpetrator to all others.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 11:47AM
Stupid, drunk American co-eds acting strangely after their roommate is murdered is NOT the same thing as a bunch of co-eds thinking: "Hey! We're no longer living at home! Let's commit a murder for fun with a drifter!"
Drunken Sailor| 10.5.11 @ 2:59PM
Nice summary of the Italy mentality Dr. I spent 3 years there and noticed the same thing you did. True, I was on off the edge of the Italian Island of Sardinia and they are influenced by several other cultures but the attitude was still the same. When I tell people that even on that small Archipelego I was on (who's economy depended in large part on the year round American presence there), there were lots of Italians that were Anti-American. Then again this island did have 3 communist parties but people still seemed surprised by it. I did not notice it as much on the Mainland. Did you?
Doctor Right| 10.5.11 @ 3:29PM
I lived in Milan, which is in the north of Italy. The socialist/communist parties do not have a strong foothold up there. In fact, during the 90's, a separatist party ("La Lega Nord") was advocating that the north of Italy (Lombardia) secede from Italy.
The reason?
They were sick of paying high taxes to support welfare in the South of Italy.
Drunken Sailor| 10.5.11 @ 4:40PM
I was in the Archipelego of La Maddena, Part of Sardinia. I can attest to the welfare of southern Italy. Unemployment on the island was 35% and that was during the busy tourist months. Winter time it went even higher. The ones that had full time employment were sick of the taxes as well.
loulou| 10.5.11 @ 10:22AM
Amanda Knox is guilty of something. Maybe accessory to the murder.
She needs to look up Casey Anthony--maybe they can roommates. Couple of psychopathic chicks.
Doctor Right| 10.5.11 @ 10:27AM
She's not guilty of anything. The evidence AGAINST her involvement is overwhelming.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 10:37AM
I'm sure you're guilty of something loulou. Acting strange at the airport? You may be a terrorist. Nevermind that lame story about being tired after the drive to the airport. Tell us something you might have seen if you want to catch your flight and avoid a charge of failing to assist federal officers...
loulou| 10.5.11 @ 11:22AM
I was never present at a murder.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 11:35AM
So are you denying your presence at the murder? I didn't say ANYTHING about murder!!! We're going to need to talk to you for a while...
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 1:33PM
One company of mine used to polygraph job applicants. The final question was always, "Have you ever done anything for which you could have been arrested?" Think about the right answer to that.
Steve A| 10.5.11 @ 2:20PM
I interviewed at Home Depot years ago. One of the questions was something along these lines: "If you put $$ in a Coke machine & 2 drinks came out, what would you do?" I, just knowing it was a trick question, told the truth "Keep it & drink both." Well, apparently what I should have done is lie & tell HD that I would have mailed Coke a check for $1.00. I was told I was not going to get an offer to stock shelves at HD as I could not be trusted enough as apparently failure to lie on the app is not "trustworthy."
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 2:50PM
I'm reminded of the Twix episode of Seinfeld...
Drunken Sailor| 10.5.11 @ 3:05PM
Did they want the list in Chronological or Alphabetical order? I'm pretty sure in other countries I broke laws I didn't even know about. You don't know the meaning of nervous until you have the Carabinieri follow you on your 2 miles stroll from the bar to home. Then again maybe they were just enjoying the scenery.
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 3:35PM
Or perhaps laughing at the staggering American.
As to the polygraph, you got it right. The answer is "Of course I have even if I don't know it".
Occam's Tool| 10.5.11 @ 1:48PM
I've been present at a beach shooting, a major city riot, etc. Not responsible.
Margie| 10.5.11 @ 5:56PM
You just reminded me of something, though I wasn't exactly present. I was across the street. In bed, sleeping and about 12 yrs. old.
The man across the street killed his wife, shot her in the head with a rifle, then shot himself. They had five children. Four daughters and one son, all grown, but the youngest were in high school.
Some things you just never forget.
Stefan Stackhouse| 10.5.11 @ 10:39AM
I obviously wasn't there, nor have I been following this closely, so I will offer no opinon on Knox's guilt or innocence. I rather doubt that most of those who are offering their opinions actually know the truth of the matter either.
I do suspect that the truth may be rather more complicated and messy than some wish to make it. She may not be guilty of exactly what she was charged with doing, but she may not be exactly squeaky clean either. If that is the case, blame an overreaching prosecutor for not perceiving that and going for a stronger and more provable case.
I am given the impression that when she first got to Italy, her Italian wasn't much better than my French. I would hate to be interrogated by French police for 55 hours, exclusively in French and with no translator, being accused of murder and having to speak for myself with no legal counsel present. I'd say the chances of saying something that I might later regret would be quite high.
Stormy| 10.5.11 @ 10:40AM
Amanda Knox may not be guilty of murdering Ms. Kercher. But, we do know that Ms. Kercher was murdered. We do know that Amanda Knox's footprint was found in Ms. Kercher's blood on the floor of the bedroom, so she was there at some point after the murder. Amanda Knox's statement at the retrial was that she was not there. So, a logical conclusion is that she "knows" something, but has not disclosed it. She may not have participated in the murder, but she likely knows who did it. But, as has been stated, we're likely to never know the truth. And, Amanda Knox, and her freedom, is no one to be celebrated. Perhaps, in time, Guede will tell the truth, but then, he's just a drug dealer, and who is going to believe him?
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 11:03AM
Stormy, check out this URL:
http://aklwei.wordpress.com/20.....ootprints/
Luminol doesn't prove that the footprints were bloody OR that they were the victims' blood. Indeed, your assumption that they were is a good example of how the Italian prosecutors helped to imply strong proof that wasn't there.
Southerner| 10.6.11 @ 12:17PM
Everyone should know who actually DID the crime. Guede's semen was inside Ms. Kercher. Guede's BLOODY HANDPRINT (Including fingerprints) In Ms. Kercher's blood was on the pillow. The bloody footprints were a type and size shoe that police later found a receipt for in Guede's residence. The actual visible bloody footprints, not the luminol footprint.
The only question is whether anyone else was involved, and if so who and how?
JosephFarnsworth| 10.5.11 @ 11:25AM
A few of the comments here are sensible. The rest are typical views that a reasonable system of justice "tries" to guard against. Rudy Gueve not only confessed but he left copious amounts of DNA and his own "negroid" hairs at the crime scene. The prosecution says that Knox and Sollecito somehow cleaned up all traces (except for a "microscopic" amount) of their DNA while leaving Rudy's intact. Rudy was caught just weeks before stealing. He is a repeat criminal and allegedly told a fellow inmate that he comitted the crime, not with these two people , but with another accomplice.
How many of us who in a position like the accused had many scenes of their lives surreptitiously recorded and then maliciously "interpreted" by the Press or Prosecution would be subsequently viewed as without "sin" by a gawking populace? Without legal councel and unable to speak Italian well, how many of us could avoid implicating a black man, Lumumba, after the police had found those hairs and had him as a prime suspect?
How many of you commentators have ever been interrogated for many, many hours by a series of hostile detectives? I have been interrogated and I know now what strange things your mind will do subject to that primal urge to escape. Countless false confessions are made. The instinct to escape evolved 100's of millions of years ago while the rational to not implicate one's self is a relatively recent human cognitve development.
Lastly consider William of Oakham's celebrated Occam's Razor - the simplest explanation (or theory per Einstein) is best. Convoluted theories of drug-fueled sex orgies to explain the actions of a disturbed stupid repeat criminal are not necessary and distort the obvious.
Peppermint Tea| 10.5.11 @ 12:02PM
So she got up the next morning and bought cleaning supplies and cleaned the apartment because she didn't want the police to know that the black guy did it?
Mister Grady| 10.6.11 @ 1:13AM
This makes about the 5th or 6th time now that someone on this thread has brought this up.
THOSE WERE FALSE REPORTS!
OKAY???
Joseph Farnsworth| 10.5.11 @ 1:07PM
Steve Sailer and Paul Kersey of SBPDL both have insightful commentary on the need for a Great White, err Hot, Defendent by the media. After all, what's interesting about yet another rape and murder perpetrated by a black criminal? (Even in Italy...)
RCV| 10.5.11 @ 1:38PM
Does TAS read the drivel that Patrick Howley submits before publishing it? This is the second article in a row of his that isn't worthy of publication in a student newspaper. For shame, TAS!
Steve A| 10.5.11 @ 2:25PM
RCV, Correct, it is fairly lame. PS: I'm giving 2-1 odds on Obama vs. GOP nominee. What are you down for?? I have DRed down for a bottle of scotch if I recall correctly.
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 4:39PM
Laguvulin or Laphroigh?
RCV| 10.5.11 @ 5:09PM
I'm already into OT for the steak dinner if I lose, plus I'll have to fly to Minneapolis to host the dinner! Actually, the way the GOP is devouring its lead candidates one after the other, my chances still look pretty good. I'm hoping that Sarah will jump in and seal the deal for us.
Al Adab| 10.5.11 @ 6:01PM
You know RCV, maybe we should all just sign up for the fall cruise. It would be great to meet everyone no matter which persoective one might have. I would be honored to lift a glass together.
RCV| 10.5.11 @ 7:00PM
And I as well, AA.
BTW, Ms. Palin crushed my hope and dreams moments ago by taking herself out of the race!
Marc C.| 10.5.11 @ 2:44PM
Howley is the best thing on this site nowadays. Hes actually doing something different
deny-deny| 10.5.11 @ 3:47PM
Marc, agreed! weird is good. keep it coming
Occam's Tool| 10.5.11 @ 1:53PM
In happier news, Israel won another Nobel Prize. In chemistry. There have been 4 Hard science Nobelists announced this year, three of which are Jews. There have been 160 Hard Science (including economics, because you have to do math) Nobels awarded to Jews. 13 Literature, 9 peace. The Muslims have 2 Nobels in Hard sciences for 1.6 Billion people. There are thirteen million Jews. Israel has won 10 Nobels total, two won in the last few years in chemistry alone, which is pretty good given that Clint's friends won't stop shooting.
PCC| 10.5.11 @ 2:33PM
Yes, but the Nobel Prize awards are part of the global Jewish conspiracy, aren't they?
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 2:46PM
Better yet, OC, let's break down the Nobels based upon number of white males have won compared to their representation in world population in addition to the countries with highest living standards. Compare and contrast anti-semitism to diversity quotas and white guilt...
Thom| 10.5.11 @ 4:01PM
Occam's Tool, “jews” are way over represented in Noble Hard Sciences awards…. Way over. We need a system of affirmative action to level the playing field here like they have instituted on the “peace” side of the awards. Without such a “points” system like they have on the “peace” side of the equation how would the charlatans, frauds and former terrorists every hope to win in the “sciences”?
RCV| 10.5.11 @ 5:11PM
Ocaam, that's only because they were barred from so many professional guilds over the centuries, that they were forced to become brilliant physicists, chemists, astronomers, economists, novelists, industrialists, etc., etc. Sheer luck!
Cam| 10.5.11 @ 1:57PM
Considerably more facts about the case are known than what Mr. Howley seems to be aware of. The shifting nature of Amanda Knox's alibi(s) and her outright misdirection and lies to Italian authorities point to her rather obvious guilt.
Ann Coulter's September 7th column is as good a review of the basics in this case as I have seen.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 2:11PM
I love Ann Coulter, but sometimes she can go off the wall like her defense of "Intelligent Design". She brings up some valid points, but flaws with Darwinism doesn't prove Creationalism. It's an interesting allegory because someone behavior suspiciously and spewing out nonsense after 50 hours of police interrogation in a foreign language probably isn't the same as being guilty of murder...
ECM| 10.6.11 @ 12:37AM
ID is (still!) *not* Creationism.
ID is also not predicated on flaws in Darwinism.
Do some research.
/someone that likes ID but is, at best, a small 'd' deist on the god question
Jase| 10.6.11 @ 11:29AM
Depends what you mean by flaws. In a sense, the whole of Darwinism must be flawed if ID is correct.
Jase| 10.5.11 @ 3:37PM
You're relying on the basic facts of a case from a newspaper column and then criticising Howley for not knowing enough about the case?
I hope you never get picked for jury service, buddy.
Cam| 10.6.11 @ 9:47AM
Er, no Jase. If you read my post again (for content this time), I simply said Ann Coulter's column was a good review of the basics in the case. Judging from responses to my post ... I suspect the name "Ann Coulter" triggers automatic derision in some.
And sorry, I just served as a jury foreman last December, buddy.
Margie| 10.5.11 @ 2:49PM
I hear Amanda's going to go back to Italy and search for the REAL killer.
Drunken Sailor| 10.5.11 @ 3:07PM
Did she mention anything about a glove? There is a convict in Nevada that would like to talk to her.
Jase| 10.5.11 @ 3:31PM
Does Berlusconi have an alibi for that night?
Margie| 10.5.11 @ 6:00PM
I heard he was in a card game over at your place.
Thom| 10.5.11 @ 3:26PM
The Casey Anthony and Amanda Knox cases, subsequent trials and dismissals demonstrate the limits of and conflicts within our concept of a fair trial and serving justice itself. In one case you have a homicide victim but no way to prove who or even how the victim came to be in that condition and in the other you have an admitted murderer in jail and two for whom there is no solid evidence of their involvement . In both cases you have obvious lies being put forth by the defendants but being a liar doesn't make you a murderer automatically else we would have to lock up the entire Democrat Party. When is the last time you heard a person claiming to be a Democrat not flock to defend an elected Democrat official caught in a lie? Billy Clinton won reelection off of repeated lies and left office with very high support among Democrats while being a convicted liar and perjurer. If you support liars you are one no differently than if you hold the coat of a mugger while he does his dirty work.
Everyone knew OJ was guilty of double homicide, even the 10 black juries who voted to acquit on the first vote. An incompetent judge let Johnny Cockroach and company put the police on trial rather than stick to the matter at hand. I have a garage full of skunked large leather gloves that won't fit my medium hands any longer. I can swell my hands with a diet change and a little work. A video of the double murders would not have gotten 12 guilty verdicts from OJs jury cesspool.
My extended family has seen the insane stupidity of the criminal justice system up close and personal and never got over the outcome of that. We give murderers who confess and for whom the evidence is iron clad free room and board for a decade or so and then release them back into society so why would anyone be surprised by the Anthony and Knox case outcomes? The evidence collection in the Knox case didn't rise to the level of junior amateur league and left the Appeals court with no choices. The prosecutors in the Anthony case simply had no provable case but insisted on rolling the dice anyway. And then there was the Jon Benet Ramsey case. Only Santa Clause could have gotten into and out of that house without a
trace...
At the end of the day we have one clear murder victim and one homicide victim that the cause of dead could not be determined in. The real Criminal Justice system we have today is in reality nothing like what you see on CSI: and alike. We seek perfection in a system composed of flawed human beings trying to judge another flawed human being. We then defecate on the guilty verdicts obtained in what some call a "speedy trial" with years of technical nitpick appeals in order to overturn a unanimous decision on the grounds that the trial was not perfect.... Who would have thought... It is a wonder we convict anyone that has not confessed and for which we don't have a video of committing the crime(s).
Amanda Knox's one true crime here was probably that of being stoned out of her mind and having no clear recollection of what went on. This is a common problem in societies that legalize or otherwise condone the deliberate and willful intoxication of its citizens by whatever means and then let them off the hook for being deliberately out of control. It also shows the limits to how DNA evidence can be used in a court case and the fallacy of our over dependence on it for convictions. DNA evidence is far easier to plant than say fingerprints. Someone using one of my kitchen knives to commit murder and wearing gloves will have set me up for example. Likewise finding someone else's DNA on a murder weapon does not mean the one convicted of murder did not do it either but we release convicted murderers all the time based on DNA evidence found 20 years after the fact...
As long as our standards are perfection, we will continue to be disappointed in cases such as these.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 4:17PM
I see where you're going, but I still disagree with Knox being an "obvious [liar]". With Casey Anthony, she had lied twice about the whereabouts of her child after a considerable time to reconsider her actions and then had a legal counsel make up a rediculous abuse defense which she went through with in court. That doesn't make her a murderer though.
In Knox's case, there's police extracted statements after hours of interrogation of someone that might have been stoned and exhausted.
Consider the prosecutor's claims of a motive that first was based upon a satanic ritual, then a sex orgy gone wrong, then later simply saying they had no motive. Were they "lying?" They certainly were grasping for straws and they had less stress than Knox was going through.
Thom| 10.5.11 @ 5:54PM
"obvious" might not apply in Knox's case but she did make false statements that she did not retract? I have some sympathy for her situation having felt a similar feeling of dread and almost uncontrolled feeling of fear come over me a couple years back with a confrontation with LE that left me feeling weak and helpless in spite of me having done nothing wrong and nothing came of it but during the entire process my mind kept racing over every little detail of the last say 5 minutes trying to remember if I had somehow broken a law…. I hadn’t. Pretty uncomfortable 5-8 minutes of my life because two cops saw me do what I did 10-12 times a year at the same place and time (being day half the year and night the other half) and carrying a bundle of papers under my arm outside of a public building in what was a high drug transfer area…. The one time the building was locked up (for a few minutes) and walked around front to see if anyone was inside and tried to open the front door and then walked back to my car to leave was the one time the place was being staked out by the cops who raced up behind my car to block my “escape” and then began to run down their “check list” of non-sense questions……that eventually led to them searching me in front of my friends who eventually showed up while all this was going on…. Half way through the event while being felt up for weapons the Cop doing the searching apologized to me and explained the “why” which didn’t rise to the level of probable cause in my opinion nor his own LT back at the precinct either. I remember the overpowering sense of fear and trembling for no reason at all….. The following month I had another run in and that was like being on the streets of Kabul…the time before that was about 46 years before at age 10…. Nothing came of that too.
I’m not sure how I would act if arrested and interrogated in a foreign country over a 4 day period of time for something like murder but based on a life time of experience I probably would take the POW approach and say nothing beyond the obvious until I had counsel of some sort.
PolishKnight| 10.5.11 @ 8:39PM
I appreciate what you're saying, but again, put it into perspective that maybe after hours of questioning she came up with several scenarios perhaps not to lie but just to try to answer their questions.
Let's try this: Look at all the "satanic ritual" cults that sprung up as police set up a dragnet to question children for hours on end until a few of them came up with stories to satisfy their questioners. Granted this co-ed is no child, but she is impressionable and afraid and after the police get all these stories out of her perhaps she's glad to be away from them.
Indeed! That was precisely what the police accused her of. How DARE she "lie" to them to get away from their interrogations and turn attention on someone other than herself. Yet, that's precisely what they were motivating her to do. Here's a candy bar if you lie to us young lady. How DARE you lie to us!
I'm reminded of the punchline of a joke my Russian friends love to hear. In it, three people try to head the FBI and find a rabbit in a forest. First, Janet Reno burns the whole forest down. Then the director of the CIA sets up microphones in the forest. And finally, the LAPD drags out a very bruised raccoon saying: "Ok, I'm a rabbit! I'm a rabbit!"
Thom| 10.5.11 @ 9:45PM
I get your point PK and I’m not disputing anything here. On balance I view the majority of prosecutors in the same light as Mike Nifong. They are given significant incentives to get convictions at any cost including the truth. I don’t follow crime cases or breaking news; I turned off network news in the middle of Gulf War 1 and don’t have cable/satellite TV. I’m primarily interested in the truth and there can only be one truth. With cases like this the “truth” has a thousand faces and the true face will almost certainly never be known to the public at large.
I wish it weren’t that way but my own extended family’s experience with a system tailored to protect both the accused and guilty at the expense of the victim and justice ultimately becomes irrelevant at some point. It is my firm belief that for any justice system to remain relevant it must both deter and punish criminal activity in accordance with the crime in question. Our system knows on two forms of punishment, time served and the death penalty. The number of murderers that get the death penalty is statistically meaningless out of the total unjustified homicides committed each year. We give multiple life sentences to people like Bernie-Made_Off_With_Your_Money or long prison sentences to people’s who story doesn’t agree with others in a Federal investigation of a non-crime but bend over backwards to avoid holding murderers to account for that for which there is no payment of a debt possible….
The system is not perfectible and some guilty will always get off but our system and those in practice in Western Europe for example defecate on themselves with “process” and the meaning of justice. Clearly the prosecutors in the Knox case did not seek the truth and took liberties when the evidence trail ended with just one identifiable murderer.
PolishKnight| 10.6.11 @ 10:00AM
Indeed, one identifiable murderer should be sufficient. Yes, it would be ideal to get all the co-conspirators where they exist, but the prosecutor should have said: "OK, we have a flaky girl here who is either guilty or messed up. Let's move on."
The prosecutor got greedy.
So now, the victims' family is unsatisfied that they merely got the main murderer.
Mazzuchelli| 10.5.11 @ 4:12PM
Generally, Italians seem to like foreigners visiting their country, even Americans. On the other hand, humans go tribal when unspoken resentment finds an outlet. I suspect Knox became an outlet for anti-American sentiment.
Jase| 10.6.11 @ 11:25AM
Pity they don't have more anti-Mafia sentiment.
lahtanza | 10.5.11 @ 10:40PM
nice blog,i will back soon
POST American| 10.5.11 @ 11:33PM
--------------------BOTTOM LINE----------------------
----------------WHY should we care?
Drop this piece, this issue entirely,
into the Ann Coulter DIS---traction bin.
You'll find that bin on the 3rd floor of
the Rockefeller 'bennie violent' Foundation,
--------right next to Oprah's, O'Reilly's,
Jay Leno's and Jon Stewart's.
-----------HUAC meets NUREMBERG 2012---------
bert| 10.6.11 @ 12:04AM
I find it scary the psychos posters defending this obvious Guilty as Hell Seattle Rich Lib Psychopath who during a drug binge range killed her female room mate. Anyone who went to college and witnessed the hatred /rage / seige mentality expressed against a disliked room mates can attest to. This rich priviledge out of control lib decided to solve her problems with her roommate while high as a kite one night.
Amanda consisitently lied , changed alibi stories, and allowed her boss to be jailed over her bold faced lies.
Her money saved this very sick twisted murderer.
May she rot in hell for her deed.
M Schwartz| 10.6.11 @ 7:26AM
@ bert,
I suggest that you read the details of her interrogation from 10pm to 5:30am by 12 people, without the benefit of counsel. She was broken down. If you take the time to read her actual statement you'll see even then she acknowledges she isn't sure that what she's writing is something she's dreamt. Then later on 6 November 2007 she also wrote that she wasn't sure of the veracity of what she'd written because she was in shock & exhausted. Not surprising after an all night interrogation in a language you barely speak.
Perhaps read FBI Profiler John Douglas's view of the case.
btw. All the forensic evidence points to Guede. There is nothing, zilch, nada in the way of DNA to show Knox or Sollecito were involved or in the room. So please refrain from your absurd comments about this persons guilt. She is the victim of a horrendous injustice.
PolishKnight| 10.6.11 @ 10:09AM
Reading bert's hate filled screed above based upon half-truths, it's rather scary to see what dishonest or overly zealous prosecutors can accomplish.
Like I said, it's like My Cousin Vinny except that in the film, the prosecutors and police are actually honest and even likable but rather misled by a series of unlucky clues (the suspects and their car looked like the actual murders. The suspects had accidentally taken something out the store and confessed to that "crime", etc.)
In this case, the police badgered a witness into blabbering and then accused her of "lying" and then blamed their own overzealousness to arrest an innocent man on her. Then they claim a footprint showing up in luminol is a "bloody footprint". etc.
What's sad is that a lot of people here bought it hook, line, and sinker including the esteemed Ann Coulter. It makes one very leery of the justice system. This kind of stuff happens here in the states all the time and there's no Cousin Vinny to clean it all up.
Margie| 10.6.11 @ 1:53PM
Hey, she's free now. But just how free is she?
supra | 10.18.11 @ 1:50AM
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Scott| 10.30.11 @ 11:54AM
From the accounts I've read from both Italian and American reports on the scene described the "Shame, Shame, Shame" as just a few drunken college students. From my gauging of opinion in Italy I believe the Italians are more divided then this article implies. I agree with the assessment that this is very similar to "My Cousin Vinny" or the Duke Lacrosse case .
There where clues initially like the boyfriends shoe print appearing to match those in the murder room. However it turned out the size was the same and the print very similar but not the same. There where also some other evidence and witnesses. The main witness admitted during the appeal that he was high on Heroin and the events he described where from the high before the murder. The DNA evidence was discredited by an independent Italian review board. The DNA of the boyfriend on the bra strap turned out to be from an unknown female. Likely simple contamination.
The judge from the first trial in his opinion describes a number of break-ins that Rudy committed during previous 30 days before the crime. Then the judge makes the assumption that the break-in was staged by Amanda Knox because he would have broke in because sort of knew the residents of the house even the physical evidence indicates a break in did actually occur. The break-in also matched Guede's MO from at least one of the other break-ins. And all the residents would likely be out of the house that night since it was a holiday weekend. The rest of the opinion builds on this likely erroneous assumption. The evidence points to the crime as a burglary gone bad committed by Rudy Guede.
regina | 5.29.12 @ 12:43PM
amazing aticle