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Special Report
Rehab For Kids
One sober journalist squares off with the cutest group of alcoholics you’ve ever seen.
Stand up straight. Don’t talk with strangers. Never chew with your mouth full. Say “please” and “thank you.” Don’t shoot heroin. These maxims have been repeated by every responsible parent since time immemorial. No one would disagree with such basic nuggets of advice. Except, perhaps, the city fathers of San Francisco, where I once saw a billboard advising junkies that when they shoot up, they should do so with a friend. You know, for safety’s sake.
On my first trip to the City by the Bay about ten years ago, I not only saw this billboard, but witnessed two men following the sage advice. One was plunging a hypodermic needle into the eyeball of the other. Sharing is caring, kids. I should have known I was in a shady area by my surroundings; the men were performing this act in the doorway of a Bloomingdale’s, that most obvious sign of urban blight. When I see upscale department stores, the second thing I think of (after being waterboarded with cologne samples) is retinal drug use.
I returned to San Francisco this past weekend, and was confronted with a different, even more obnoxious face of addiction. While wheeling my suitcase into the hotel lobby, I was greeted by hundreds of unruly kids ranging in age from 13 to 18. They were pierced, tattooed, mohawked, and generally attired in the kinds of clothing that teenagers who claim that they don’t want attention wear when they are desperate for it. Many were loitering outside the building chain smoking. I asked the woman at the check-in desk what convention was booked for the weekend. She failed to understand that I was discreetly asking about the group of Red Bull chugging brats and so mentioned a conference of German scientists. I did not see any future Wernher von Brauns among the pint sized punk rawkers. But then the woman mumbled something vague about a group of young people.
I spied a conference lanyard for ICYPAA, and through the magic of Google was introduced to the International Conference of Young People in Alcoholics Anonymous. The group is billed as being for younger AA members and anyone with “some growing to do.” I can assuredly say that they have some growing to do. They spent the weekend holding loud parties in rooms all over the hotel and abusing energy drinks as ersatz booze. I cannot imagine how these children must have partied on a bender, because they were thoroughbreds even while sober.
ICYPAA was first established in 1958 at a meeting of young Alcoholics Anonymous members from across the country. The group claims to have been “founded for the purpose of providing a setting for an annual celebration of sobriety among young people in AA.” Ironic, then, that the group spent the weekend acting decidedly intoxicated. During one meeting, hundreds of conventioneers kept up the mood by listening to the dance hit “Like a G6” by Far East Movement. Lyrics include a reference to sizzurp, a mixture of codeine and promethazine favored by hip hop artists, as well as the boast that “when sober girls around me they be actin’ like they drunk.” Perhaps the girls in question are ICYPAA attendees.
I spent several hours in the lobby one night people-watching and conversing on Twitter with fellow hotel guests besieged by this odd convention. One of these strangers, a friendly woman by the name of Klaudia Kelly, turned out to be an actress of the adult cinema — to put it politely. She was dumbstruck by the intensity with which the youngsters of ICYPAA partied, and found it incongruous that they would engage in such behavior as a substitute for substance abuse. Given Ms. Kelly’s line of work, I am inclined to trust her professional opinion.
I’m all for self-improvement and I generally have nothing against AA. Thanks to several close friends who are social workers, as well as encounters with substance abusers in my personal life, I know that breaking free of addiction is difficult if not impossible. If you are an addict, the blunt truth is that you are statistically unlikely to recover. AA and other recovery programs have the potential to give people tools to save their own lives. But I can’t help but be skeptical of this particular group.
As I looked over the hundreds of teens crowding the hotel lobby, I wondered how many of them were alcoholics and how many were just rebellious youths who had done stupid things in the name of experimentation. Could some of these kids have benefited from more aggressive parenting rather than meetings in dingy church basements culminating in a yearly, caffeine and cigarette powered junket?
The outward appearance of the group also struck me. They all wore the clothing and bore the ink and piercings of those who wish to alienate themselves from mainstream society. You could say that they were conformist in their “non-conformity.” Were many of them simply looking for a readymade group of like-minded friends? A chance to bond with people who understood them and could fulfill their basic desire to fit in? A place where everybody knows your name, and they’re always glad you came?
Ultimately, I cannot answer these questions because I do not know these kids. Perhaps each and every one of them would be selling their bodies in the streets of Tijuana but for AA. But if that is the case, is the cure worse than the disease? According to ICYPAA’s mission statement, the three legacies of AA (recovery, unity, and service) form the backbone of the group. While I certainly saw unity amongst the attendees, I would be hard pressed to give them credit for recovery in light of their unruly behavior. And I saw few signs of good citizenship, let alone service. A young lady scoffed when my wife and I made it into an elevator despite her efforts to close the doors on us. Who was she serving but herself?
From what I witnessed over a short period, these teens act in such narcissistic ways that they stand out even amongst their peers. They claim to be in recovery but send messages at every turn that they wish to be alienated from the mainstream. No reasonable parent would be proud of their behavior.
As I left my hotel just after checkout, I encountered a bum using a frying pan to collect change. While I was a bit spooked by the large and heavily intoxicated man wielding a blunt object, the etymologist in me appreciated the experience. The man yelled after me as I walked past without chipping in for his next bottle of Thunderbird. I chuckled to myself as it dawned on me that this man is running a more honest racket than ICYPAA. He wants money for booze, and uses unveiled threats to get it. But at least he doesn’t call his offensive behavior “service.”
About the Author
Bill Zeiser is a communications consultant living in New York City and a 2012 Publius Fellow of the Claremont Institute. Follow him on Twitter @BillZeiser.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (79) | Leave a comment
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gary| 9.14.11 @ 6:36AM
Mr. Zeiser seems to know all the right cliche's regarding AA and his pointed stereotypical comments. Granted, there's much to say about addiction(s) but, certainly a realistic approach is not one of his strongest areas.
Obviously, he's lived in his "plastic" world too long and never had much time to leave the front desk to discover the real world. Matter of fact Mr. Zeiser, you could be the next "bum" with a frying pan standing on the corner. It can happen to anyone or - are you excluded?
Melvin| 9.14.11 @ 7:42AM
It also must be kept in perspective that the vast majority of Ouzo pan handlers are in the position that they are in not due to their economic situation, but rather they simply choose to live that particular lifestyle.
Especially in the Bay Area, it is more a way of life than anything else.
Brian Mc| 9.14.11 @ 8:49AM
Yes, Melvin...I often want to roll down the window at the red light and ask, "What if we all did what you are doing?"
DG in GA| 9.14.11 @ 11:45AM
Gary, what on earth makes you think that Mr. Zeiser is just one paycheck away from being a bum panhandling for booze on the street? Most of the street people are either addicts or mentally ill. Addiction recovery programs are generally only 30% effective - which means that 70% of the "graduates" go back to their addictions, no matter how much money is spent on their recovery, or how many times they go to rehab.
I suspect Mr. Zeisler took advantage of the FREE education we offer young people in this country, probably studied and got good grades, then went on to college and made something of himself. If there was a setback like losing his job, even in this economy, he would likely work his butt off to get another job, no matter what it was. Only people who squander their opportunities for education, or make poor life choices are candidates for being one paycheck away from the street. Don't say "It's not their fault" because it usually is. Or "there but for the grace of God go you" because most of us have more sense and make better choices.
Ko| 9.16.11 @ 6:55AM
"Better choices"? You obviously know very little about alcoholism and/or addiction and frankly should cease to spewing your opinion where it was warranted. The fact is, unfortunately Mr. Zeisler clearly has a bias opinion of the fellowship that pertains to this article and did not venture to far to cross examine his research.
I have no clue where you get your numbers about recovery but their wrong and frankly it sounds like your just as snub nosed as Mr. Zeisler appears to be.
KyMouse| 9.14.11 @ 6:42AM
Thanks for the sobering article, Mr. Zeiser. Well done.
I'm reminded of the son of a friend -- a young man wise enough to want to avoid being sucked into the drink-and-drug culture of his classmates. When he was in high school, he was old enough to stay alone in the house whenever his parents went out of town, but he always had them ask me to come babysit him.
That left him free to invite a friend or two over for an evening in the basement, but he knew that his house wouldn't be taken over by masses of kids. And, of course, he could save face by telling his friends that it was his parents who insisted on having me there.
Smart kid.
Andrew B| 9.14.11 @ 7:26AM
Alcoholism tore my family to shreds. My mother and brother both died from it and my father's last years were full of misery because of it.
I have been told by medical sources that, since both my parents were alcoholics, I am one too. That is not the case, and I believe it is because of an ugly truth that nobody discusses. Alcoholism is made up of two parts--a predisposition combined with a willingness. I may have the predisposition, but I am unwilling to become a sorry drunk like the rest of my family.
I have more than my share of other failings, but alcoholism isn't one of them. I hope some of the teens described in the article wise up, grow up and move on.
Bruce| 9.14.11 @ 9:09AM
Andrew;
I staggered through life for the better part of 7 years. I got started on booze early (16) and managed to stay on track for the most part. After a divorce, the loss of my kids and their subsequent abuse by my former spouse, I decided I could "kill the pain" through alcohol. I had the "support" of superiors who didn't care if I was an alcoholic so long as I showed up and could do my job. What got me straight? A loving wife, a return to values I was taught by my grandparents, and a church that said "inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him."
DW| 9.26.11 @ 7:38PM
The kids in AA have "wised up and moved on". Witht the peer support of others battling this horrible disease, they are able to enjoy life and be kids again, rather than alcoholics and addicts. I suggest Mr. Zeiser and other oblivious readers to attend an open AA meeting to hear the real story of the people who are battling this one day at a time
SB| 10.24.11 @ 6:22PM
Right On!
Doctor Right| 9.14.11 @ 7:36AM
Only a permissive, increasingly decadent society like ours, steeped in entitlements, would tolerate such nonsense in youth.
Most of these pathetic malcontents would be better served by a swift kick in the ass than by the continued coddling of the "addiction" racket. The lack of parenting, also a symptom of our societal deterioration, is evident.
And kudos to Mr. Zeiser for pointing out something I've often noticed myself: all if these youthful "non-conformists" look exactly the same. They're screaming for attention and discipline, yet all they get are platitudes from a willfully compliant media fir their "independence."
Rubbish.
DG in GA| 9.14.11 @ 11:55AM
It's funny, when I was in school that kind of behavior and mode of dress would not have been permitted. Heck, girls had to wear dresses and skirts, for heaven's sake! No blue jeans. And I'm not THAT old. But the the libs took over the schools and decided that kids could be as sloppy as they want, get pierced and tatooed, etc., as a form of "self-expression." What does it say about how someone feels about himself that he pierces extremely sensitive body parts and mucks up his skin with tatoos (that could give him terminal diseases) and wears old, nasty, torn clothing and basically looks like a street bum? Then the TEACHERS started doing it! The inmates run the asylum, and parents these days are too cowed by their kids (or too busy have a good time themselves) to take a stand and prevent it. I remember huge debates in recent years about whether parents who allow their kids and their friends to drink at their homes should be charged with contributing to the delinquency of minors. These idiots actually believe that as long as their kids are allowed to drink at home, they won't drink when they're not at home. The truth is that these kids drink EVEN MORE when they're not at home because they know their parents don't care about them. After all, their parents are "cool."
Brian Mc| 9.14.11 @ 7:43AM
"...Some growing to do..."?
To put it mildly, I must say. My father died in the gutter; his sixty year-old body tormented and trashed and his sixteen year-old mentality wondering to all within ear-shot in any given bar at any given moment, what the problem was. He never saw that abandoning seven children for booze should have been a wake-up call. He never came to grasps that accepting drinks at the VFW for war wounds he never suffered because he never was in Korea, let alone in the military, was another indication that he DID have a problem. His wounds were achieved when he fell drunk, from a tree he was pruning.
My bitterness and rage have been replaced in my later years with pity and forgiveness for this man-child. Good thing too, for it saved me from his fate and allows me to enjoy the pride I find in my three daughter's achievements and the gifts of grandchildren that my Father never knew...for his father before him achieved the same end.
So, until these 'children' wake up and grow up there is no hope for them; what a trajedy. They can only help themselves by first seperating them from each other and the tools of abuse. If they still can't deal with reality...sucks to be them. And this is the reality of which I speak; we all must answer for our gifts someday. That's as simple as anyone can make it.
george nugent | 9.14.11 @ 8:06AM
I did it. Its my fault. Why did I want to hurt myself? Insane behaviour. Perhaps real insanity. AA and friends results in 24 years of sobriety. Perhaps a predisposition to sanity and a willingness to be healthy. AA is it.
Brian Mc| 9.14.11 @ 8:52AM
You're in my prayers this a.m.
Skippy| 9.14.11 @ 3:17PM
Just got 10 years last month.
Family would be gone and me dead had I not been "protected by Smith & Wilson".
These kids sound like some NA fellowships I have attended.
Halloween dress; jerk attitudes and anything you want available in the parking lot.
Give me old grey-haired drunks anyday.
We know what we have at stake; these kids just can't stop partying and grow up.
They still think it's all about them.
Skippy| 9.14.11 @ 3:33PM
My wife uses the term "Russian orphans" to describe young folks with no social skills, and no apparent desire to obtain any.
They have an even tougher row to hoe, given their addictions.
That said, I do not offer it as an excuse for bad behavior.
The goal of AA is to become a normal person, rather than a terminally-unique egomaniac with a severe inferiority complex.
Dead Babies| 9.14.11 @ 8:53AM
You know Mr Z, the reality is that only about 5% of that bunch you saw will ever achieve anything like long-term (over 5 years) sobriety. Apologies to you for any offense, but it is SF - one of the more offensive cities in the U.S. Thanks for choosing to share your sad experience. There but for the Grace of God... (and all the other cliche's which amuse you so much)
Ko| 9.16.11 @ 7:01AM
Though I find your reply amusing, I'd have to say that that percentage is deceiving, not to imply that a 12 step recovery program doesn't work but more as to "it works if you work it" (but you knew that one, huh)
The fact is, that the staggering amount of people on a court card that pass through don't hold any reliability to the numbers of people that come for a genuine need for change, strive for that change & actually do so.
tinsldr2| 9.14.11 @ 10:06AM
So let me get this straight!
A group of kids, that used to get high and drunk at every chance they had, has quit the booze and drugs.
They meet up and socialize and have fun but do it Sober and remember it the next morning.
No young women selling their bodies for Drug money, the men are not out stealing to buy booze, they are not throwing up in the morning and are being introduced to a program that stresses belief in a God and honesty.
So they meet up and as kids do that have a wild side, they have fun together. And the author has a problem with this why?
Ko| 9.16.11 @ 7:02AM
exactly :)
Occam's Tool| 9.22.11 @ 6:53PM
Because they are not sober---they are simply no longer drunk. There is a huge difference between the two.
Or, to put it a different way---they were drunken jerks. Now they are no longer drunken.
Moe Blotz| 9.14.11 @ 10:10AM
In RE: third opening line.
If young ones do not chew with mouths full,how will they learn to masticate?
DG in GA| 9.14.11 @ 11:59AM
I believe he misspoke, meaning don't chew with your mouth open. My Dad used to say "Don't eat with food in your mouth" when he really meant "Don't chew with your mouth open." We got such a kick out of it, that we all said that to our kids too. They thought we were nuts, but it always got a big laugh at family gatherings. And we don't chew with our mouths open.
Moe Blotz| 9.15.11 @ 6:13PM
Or maybe "Don't talk with your mouth full." Professional scribblers should poof read their scribbles.
rightasrain| 9.14.11 @ 10:52AM
They may have eliminated some of their unhealthy behaviors but that doesn't excuse the obnoxious ones.
Ko| 9.16.11 @ 7:05AM
Ohh were you there too or are you just taking a bias "sober" reporter's word for it?
Unfortunately the author did NOT experience even 10% of the actual conference that was going on and had no clue what was actually going on let alone the actual "service" that was taking place.
I use to practice contempt prior to investigation as well...
Nancy in NC| 9.14.11 @ 11:06AM
I am very familiar with AA and the program of AA, and I can tell you that what the writer saw in San Fran isn't it. AA's primary focus is living a purposeful life without alcohol, not acting like a bunch of hooligans, regardless of one's age.
Any AA group worth it's salt follows the 12 steps of AA. The 12 steps basically are I have a problem, I can't fix it, God (higher power) can. True AA members living the life of AA take an inventory of their life, make amends for past mistakes (and responsibility) and try their best to not repeat previous mistakes. A serious AA member has a sponsor and a group that helps him achieve the aforementioned aims.
Does any of that sound like the picture protrayed by the writer of this article? I don't think so.
tinsldr2| 9.14.11 @ 11:39AM
Nancy, but the picture here does not tell you a single thing about those kids to tell you if they have done that.
It is actually more telling about the type of person Mr Zeiser is then the kids.
Did he approach them and identify himself and ask them questions? Did he ask them if they believed in God and asked for his guidance in their lives?
Did he question them about their past experiences and what led them there?
Or did he expect young people meeting at a convention in San Francisco to act like people at a funeral.
I am very conservative,married to same woman for 24 years, retired military, wear a tie to work 4 days a week and dress nice even on Friday and have no tattoo's or piercings.
But I see from the description a group of young people not doing drugs and drinking and showing other young people they can still have fun and that life does not end because they gave up the destructive behavior.
james wilson| 9.14.11 @ 12:57PM
Putting a large group of perhaps-recovering perhaps-not teenage addicts together for what essentially is a party is a fundamental error in reason and experience. It must be making somebody somewhere feel good.
AA Saed My Life| 9.14.11 @ 1:12PM
This article saddens me in ways too numerous to list. As a clergyman and a member of AA I know young people who attend ICYPAA. Perhaps I can speak with some greater knowledge of the subject.
The young people I have known in AA are, by and large, what is described as "low bottom" addicts and alcoholics. These kids have imbibed, shot up, snorted, and smoked more drugs and alcohol in their short years than many far older and more 'traditional' alcoholics have over years, even decades, of drinking. These are young people who are almost totally de-socialized (if I may coin a term). They are indeed alienated from society, tatted up, pierced, and wild. And after they get into recovery, they remain so for some time. Some never get back into the mainstream of society, as many of us middle class folk see it.
That said, let me make some observations.
1) What would we rather see among them, that they were out drinking, drugging, living on gov't assistance, living in promiscuity, committing crimes, and so on, OR living soberly, holding down jobs (as most of them do in ICYPAA), becoming better and more whole human beings, and yet doing so while exuberantly partying as sober yet 'wild' members of society (however marginalized)?
2) Consider: who would better reach young addicts and alcoholics, someone like you... or these kids?
3) As you judge them and look down on them, remember that they are in process. Just because someone stops drinking and drugging, sees that his or her life is unmanageable, and seeks to give his will & life over to god (steps 1-3) does not mean that this person stops living with the demons and missteps of his or her life to this point.
4) BE PATIENT WITH THEM, for goodness sake. Most of them will never be normal middle class types. Most of them come from lower-income homes, or from backgrounds marked by more brokenness and dysfunction than the author or many of the rest of the commentators here can imagine. That they can become functioning members of society in any regard is often a miracle.
5) Please remember: once you are tattooed you can't just buy some soap and wash the ink off. You have no idea when they got those tats, or what they mean to those young people. Besides, though most people of my age (almost 40 yrs) and up do not appreciate tattoos or understand the attraction to them, it does not necessarily follow that the people having them are the dregs of society.
Indeed, one very upstanding man I know in recovery has a tattoo on his shoulder displaying a most disturbing and perverted sexual image. But he got it while in the throes of his addiction, and hasn't the money to replace or remove it.
6) Finally, it is my assumption that most of the people reading AmSpec are Christians, Jews, or people adhering to a Judeo-Christian ethic. May I remind us of the words of Moses which the Lord Jesus described as the 2nd greatest commandment? "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." If you were one of these young people, how would you like to be loved? Would you appreciate what has been written here if you were trying with all your strength, and in the face of unspeakable temptations and baggage to overcome your past and better yourself? Or would you rather that you opened the pages or website of the American Spectator and saw there conservatives who trumpet your efforts to do the very thing conservatives SAY that they advocate: personal responsibility, self-effort, and old fashioned, pull-yourself-up-by-your-bootstraps elbow grease?
Shame on you all for your condescension, self-righteousness, and smug bourgeois self-satisfaction. If I may quote the Lord Jesus again, "Let he who is without sin cast the 1st stone."
I pray that you all with reflect on these matters, and that the next time you see ICYPAA members or indeed anyone in drug or alcohol recovery you will be their advocates and cheerleaders rather than their judges.
Thank you for allowing me to contribute to this discussion.
radiodaddy| 9.15.11 @ 1:30PM
thank you
DW| 9.26.11 @ 7:41PM
Well said!
Roo in Rosa| 10.1.11 @ 2:22AM
Thank you for an articulate response! I am in recovery as well. What I got from this article was someone who would have judged those kids regardless of their actions.
The kids were there to party. It's not surprising they acted the way they did. Trying to close the doors. That's how teens act when they're with their friends. Especially those who have never felt accepted by those who look like the author. I'm sure that he and his wife quite reminded them as to why they hate mainstream America in the first place.
Sobriety is something to be celebrated! It is no easy endeavor. And if this ICPYAA gives them a little break from feeling like fun can't happen because you're living a sober life than what hope do they have to succeed?
SB| 10.24.11 @ 6:29PM
Thank You. As a member of many ypaa committees and an attendee of the 53 ICYPAA in San Fransico, I am glad to see some support. AA has given me a life. YPAA has taught me how to live it.
AA Saved My Life| 9.14.11 @ 1:16PM
One more comment: ICYPAA members are usually not teens, or at least not under 18. For the most part they are people who range in age from 20-30, or in other words, college aged.
Chris Schiffner | 9.14.11 @ 1:27PM
I'm fairly confused by the comments on this article. How can ANYONE think unsupervised troubled teens belong anywhere near a hotel -- running free and partying?
Marie| 9.14.11 @ 1:58PM
Chris, I am as confused as you are about people not expecting that young people owe a degree of respect for others around them. I was born into an alcoholic family and lived most of my childhood in an institution because of parental neglect. I learned that I should, "Love the Lord my God with all my strength and my neighbor as myself." If nothing is expected of these young people, they will achieve nothing!
Cris| 9.14.11 @ 2:12PM
In the recovering community, many see these frequent "conferences", as a chance to loosen up a little. This is a recent phenomenom (past 30 or so years).
Time was, when one straightened up one's act, one really straightened up one's act. That meant at least trying to dress and act like a lady, or a gentleman. Nowadays, it is fashionable to think that one can be hip, cool and 'out there', and sober, too. It has to do with the liberal, non-judgemental mindset that has infected 12 step programs, as it has everything else in society.
Well, maybe one can. Since those sub groups have drugs and alcohol as a central part of their culture, the notion seems kind of foolish.
But active alcoholics aren't known for mature thinking. Acquiring a mature perspective and mindset for the recovering individual takes time and effort. Meanwhile, one hangs on to what has worked in the past, until one no longer needs it.
Like the clergyman above, I see these kids as alienated from the mainstream, not very trusting, and as yet unwilling to give the slightest entertainment to the notion that being a citizen is the way to go.
And annoying when not depressing.
Give them time, patience and tolerance. The bottom line is that it's a far, far better thing than any they have done before.
Ko| 9.16.11 @ 7:12AM
30 years? try 54 now....this isn't new
Cris| 9.16.11 @ 11:36PM
Heh. there's pre 60s loose and post 60s loose.
Julia| 9.14.11 @ 2:14PM
I am having a hard time even knowing where to start here. First off, I am personally offended at the mere insinuation that programs like AA are anything less than groundbreaking and life changing. I understand that you're not saying you're against these programs, but I really don't think you have the slightest idea how productive these programs are.
I am the child of an alcoholic who ultimately took his own life because of his disease. I have watched friends, people my own age, die of drug overdoses. I know that if it weren't for programs like AA or Al-Anon my life may have taken a totally different turn.
As far as the ICYPAA goes, I understand the concern for these children being unsupervised. What I don't understand is that concept that just because these teens have "cleaned up their act" they need to conform to what you would consider the social norm. Like you said, addiction is a lifelong struggle. I see no harm in these kids letting loose and having a good time, espeically with like minded peers. I actually applaud them for being able to still let loose despite their sobriety! Weren't you a teenager? Didn't you go to parties and dance and listen to music that may have seemed questionable by others? I know that almost every teen I know has a period of rebellion that involved the way they dressed or the music they listened to. That didn't make them bad kids, it made them normal. Why should they cease to be regular teens just because they are struggling to maintain control over an illness that, without groups like ICYPAA, may have taken their lives. Isn't it important to their recoveries that they be able to maintain as "normal" a life as anyone?
I just think that you really need to walk a mile in the shoes of an addict before you have any right to judge them. Maybe, if you really understood their plight, you'd drop a quarter in the frying pan next time.
wolflen| 9.14.11 @ 2:25PM
just young people having fun eh...lets fast forward a tad...and visit my next door neighbor...age 28..body tats...martial arts black belt-and lets you and everyone know it...drunk/stoned 24/7..loud parties EVERY night...unemployed for over 2 yrs... and according to his live in girl friend-getting her masters degree...who said in a very loud voice one evening...."...why did you hit me in the face..you hit me in the face" ...even though the police have visited him many times for noise complaints..it has not altered his behaviour..he will not go into any "program" to get help...and the mythical "bottom out" theory is not part of this persons make up..he will continue until he is arrested for drunk driving-a daily event in his life or he hurts or kills someone...which is in the high percentages...though some respondents seem to think the author is being harsh on the unruly "kids" ... perhaps they would like to live next to my neighbor and forgive him for being just a "wild & crazy guy having fun"...
Roo in Rosa| 10.1.11 @ 2:43AM
But these kids are sober, not drunk. That's the kinda of life they are trying to avoid.
jeffeff| 9.14.11 @ 6:10PM
I attended my first ICYPAA event in 2006, about a year and a half after my last drink. I was exhorted to go by "young" AA friends, for whom the event was the high-water mark of the AA year, and a culmination of what being sober in "the Program" was all about. I went, and when I got there I encountered an appalling scene exactly like the one descibed above by Mr. Zeiser. Most of the attendees had less than a year of sobriety, and a sizeable number had less than a month. One of the lasting images of the experience for me was the sight of groups of “sober young people” splayed around the hotel pool after being up all night partying, exchanging profanities and absent-mindedly flicking cigarette butts into the pool. I felt sorry for the staff of the hotel, and extremely embarrassed at the idea that I would be associated with this group of people and this type of behavior.
My experience with my own alcoholism was such that the overriding and basically only concern of anyone I came in contact with -- family member, friend, co-worker, counselor, doctor -- was that I stop drinking, period. There were of course exhortations to "get help" or to "go to treatment", yet these were not elaborated upon, and carried the implicit assumption that "treatment" is generally what happens concurrently with the cessation of one's drinking (or drug use, as the case may be). Such is generally the case still -- nobody seems to know or care what exactly "treatment" is -- only that one "goes to" it. At any rate, the idea of any accompanying behavioral or emotional or economic or social or psychic change related my stopping drinking was never broached in my presence -- other than in the rote recitations from AA texts I heard in meetings.
AA has endured mainly because of the way the rest of the world continues to regard alcoholic or addicted behavior. The primary concern is always, at whatever cost, to remove the drunkenness and/or the drunk away from and out of the lives of decent people. Most people tend to think of AA as something which exists on the societal fringe, whose constituents are somehow removed and apart from mainstream culture, the specifics of whose tenets aren’t commonly known, as something which is "underground"; indeed — a cult. The idea that a person deemed "alcoholic" can go away somewhere to be among his or her kind for a period of time, and do some... stuff... such that he or she can be "fixed" and at some point re-enter polite society, has always had intrinsic appeal to people. This is where AA has come in for 76 years.
But as many have pointed out or otherwise sensed, the derivative Christian quasi-religious methodology of AA flies completely in the face of the contemporary culture which is the basis of nearly all teenage and much adult behavior. So the question I have is, can young people, in large measure, reasonably be expected to observe anything other than the simple letter of AA law -- to merely abstain from ingesting specific substances, while forgoing "sobriety" in any larger sense in terms of ideals of judgment, charitability, refinement, or tact? Magic 8-Ball, what say you?
Signs point to "NO".
Ko| 9.16.11 @ 3:44PM
this is all propaganda
I'm sorry you had such a bad experience but you experience is not the rule.
The fact is, this year their were 4,600 people there (bound to have a few maybe 100 crazy kids just sobered up, thank God their safe with us.....and not you) and out of those 4,600 people the average age was about 25-30 (not under 18 like Mr. Z writes). I happen to know the majority have around 2+ years .
I've already heard that lives were changed and forever touched because of that conference, and to be honest that's a good trade for some critic that had a "bad time" because he'd rather practice contempt rather than investigate....like a real writer would.
This article gives me a great laugh as I've been going to this said conference for 5+ years now and have seen some of what has been said and much much more of what has not been said and frankly if it wasn't helping people then no one would come.
good day
Denise| 9.14.11 @ 11:47PM
I have more than my share of other failings, but alcoholism isn't one of them. I hope some of the teens described in the article wise up, grow up and move on.
http://www.summer-products.com
http://www.wholesalesunglassesbrands.com
POST American| 9.15.11 @ 3:16AM
--------------------FINAL WORD------------------------
-----Keep a goin' kiddies!
--------Keep a goin'
---------Gaga is ROCK--F--L--O n'
-----------'A--BORE---shun' is EUGENICS---------
--------------------JUST KEEP A GOIN'
jay| 9.15.11 @ 5:58AM
Did Mr. Zeiser interview any attendees before mischaracterizing the group as solely teenagers?
The website linked to does not give an age limit, and the hotel had to contract with some people that they trusted.
Is the photograph accompanying the article from this event or a stock image chosen to put the event in a bad light?
Was the session where 'Like A G6' played actually a meeting, or a dance?
Bill Zeiser| 9.15.11 @ 1:31PM
I generally don't like to respond to comments on my pieces, but the above requires a response since it is an attack on my integrity. If by "mischaracteristize" you mean I made a legitimate observation and then reported on it, guilty as charged. Over the course of the weekend I saw at most a handful of adults, most of them close to my age. The vast bulk of people I encountered were between the age range I described. And their numbers were legion. I never accused them of being the ones who contracted with the hotel, in response to your irrelevant question. You are at least the second person to raise the issue that this group is supposed to be for people in their 20s and 30s. That may be so, but I saw what I saw.
There is a link to video of the "G6" incident that a conference attendee posted on YouTube. You can find that link within my piece. It was clearly during a conference session, but please feel free to view for yourself.
The photo is indeed a stock photo was placed there by the editors. The event chose to put itself in a bad light, no photos necessary. I apologize for offending you by writing about it.
While I am commenting, I may as well address the blanket comments that have been posted about this piece, my character, etc. I merely accurately described what I witnessed. I fully support recovery, as I note in this piece, and have had close family members impacted by addiction. I do not live in a bubble, and I do not begrudge the rough personal circumstances of any of these kids. If they have truly found the path to recovery, more power to them.
However, your rights end at the point that they curb the rights of others. As a hotel guest I paid money for a safe, quiet place to stay. I did not pay for the ICYPAA Teenage Angst Experience, the ICYPAA Blowing off Some Steam Experience, the ICYPAA Give the Kids a Break They Have Been Through A Lot Experience or anything of the sort.
One commenter above, who is apparently a man of the cloth saved by AA is a perfect living illustration of the "soft bigotry of low expectations." If we tell these kids that they don't have to behave because of all else they have been through, if we fail to model normative behavior for them, if we tell them they will never be middle class Americans because of their backgrounds, we will reap what we deserve.
It was up to the chaperones to at least try to maintain some sense of order. They did no such thing from what I saw. The comment above from a former ICYPAA attendee who observed the same behavior I did and was equally appalled said it all.
I had a brief moment yesterday where some of these comments made me consider that I might have been too judgmental. I realize now that the comments are sophistry. I believe AA is a worthwhile organization. If you agree, your quarrel should be with them for mismanaging this event, not with the messenger.
JEH| 9.15.11 @ 7:36PM
I find it amusing that an “attack on your integrity” prompted you to respond. I also find it slightly amusing that you believe this article to be “reporting” which to me is an objective, fact-based account of a happening. This is indeed what a journalist is called to do, report. However, I find this article to be more of an editorial or opinionated journalism. Only a moment after introducing your subject, ICYPAA attendees, you labeled them as unruly (which is probably debatable, but still an opinion) and made a blanket statement about teens that dress defiantly according to certain standards, a basic correlation does not equal causation error. The other ironic piece of this “objective reporting” puzzle is that you even felt the need to opine about the nature of your reader’s comment, labeling it “irrelevant.” Are we a bit sensitive to feedback sir? (I would suggest switching professions if this were the case.) Just as you exercise your right to voice your opinion (which is what I’m going to call this) your readers will do the same.
Bill Zeiser| 9.15.11 @ 11:42PM
I also find my article to be an opinion piece. I should hope so! Especially since it was written as an opinion piece, to be submitted to a site that is full of opinion pieces. You keep talking about "objective reporting"--I do not know where you got that idea from, as I never claimed that was what I did.
I did use the word "reporting" above. One definition of that word is "Give a spoken or written account of something that one has observed, heard, done, or investigated." That is how I meant it. I admit that was a poor word choice, especially since there are apparently folks such as yourself that might confuse the opinion section of an opinion site which is full of opinion pieces as an attempt at objectivity.
I see you took a logic course at some point. Congrats. So did I. Lay off it. That sort of talk is what made the second two Matrix movies suck, whereas the first one was awesome. Ergo. Corcordantly. Vis-a-vis.
I'm not sure why you would find it amusing that an attack on my integrity would prompt me to respond. While I readily admit that this is an opinion piece, and never claimed otherwise, I draw the line at questioning the veracity of events I witnessed. I'm not New York Times ace reporter Jayson Blair for crying out loud--I have standards.
I did not label my reader's comment irrelevant. I pointed out that it was irrelevant. Since it was not at all germane to his line of questioning, and did nothing to address his questions concerning what I actually saw with my own eyes, it was irrelevant.
I'm not sensitive to feedback, I'm sensitive to nonsense. I enjoy feedback and I don't respond to most comments because I like to see where the discussion goes. The only reason I responded was because the accuracy of what I saw was called into question. You are free to pump out your own interpretations of the events I saw, but that doesn't mean I didn't see them.
I don't understand what you're talking about by saying that my readers are free to voice their opinions. I'm not trying to silence anyone's counterpoints. In fact, I let them exercise their lines of thinking to the fullest by not responding in most cases. If I didn't allow people to comment on my controversial pieces, I'd be Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman, a widely syndicated New York Times columnist. Caution--his pieces are opinion pieces too. Just wanted to clarify.
jay| 9.16.11 @ 6:13AM
I appreciate that the attendees should focus on their appearances as ambassadors of their event and it is lamentable that they did not better display their sobriety.
I recognize that you perceived that the event was teenagers and chaperones, and observed that the chaperones must have been asleep at the switch, but that is not the type of event it is. The individuals were in charge of themselves, and apparently have work to do in that regard.
I was surprised that you took the time to cite more than one webpage, as linked in the article, but chose to use an age range that likely did not include hundreds of other participants you didn't see or recognize as part of the event for their lack of mohawks. That, along with with the photo you did not choose, portrays the event in a light that it surely does not deserve save for a few too many rude attendees.
I don't begrudge you your opinion, and am truly sorry if you were not allowed a moment's peace throughout the weekend. I thank you for allowing comments unlike a certain Mr. Krugman, and also for clarifying your remarks.
Ko| 9.16.11 @ 7:21AM
There was nothing mismanaged about the event, they're were other hotels you could have stayed at. The people (yes people, not all teens, in fact the average age of the attendees I'd say was 25) that put that conference together has been going longer than you've been alive with a 2,200 room block and EVERYONE paid their way.
I assure you there were no chaperones, I feel you missed the entire point and am disgusted by your ignorance. I personally apologize if you felt offended by the attendees but I know for a fact that you had no clue what was actually taken place at that conference that weekend and no news article will ever tell you what you missed.
Ignorance is bliss i guess
look in the mirror Mr. Z
Occam's Tool| 9.22.11 @ 7:04PM
Dear Bill:
On a much more serious topic: did you get a Mistied copy of The Beast of Yucca Flats? If I sent one to TAS, would it get to you?
Bradley Nashville| 9.15.11 @ 3:27PM
I'm sorry you didn't get to witness 5,000 people ranging from 1 day to over 50 years of sobriety, in one room, holding hands, reciting the Lord's Prayer. Powerful moment.
You see what you want to see
Bradley Nashville| 9.15.11 @ 3:27PM
I'm sorry you didn't get to witness 5,000 people ranging from 1 day to over 50 years of sobriety, in one room, holding hands, reciting the Lord's Prayer. Powerful moment.
You see what you want to see
Bill Zeiser| 9.15.11 @ 4:21PM
Or in this case, I saw what was thrust upon me. I did not "want" to see anything. I wanted to go about my business in a hotel while others went about theirs. I agree that the moment you describe sounds like a very powerful and emotionally moving one, but it is not one that I was fortunate enough to witness. My piece is not an indictment on the fact that ICYPAA or AA exist, it is an indictment on behavior that I personally witnessed.
Micah| 9.16.11 @ 8:35AM
The hotel sent letters to its guests registered during ICYPAA's dates making them aware of what would be going on that weekend. You received advance notice that you might have to put up with some "unconventional nonsense." If you wanted a convention hotel stay, you should have stayed elsewhere. Nothing was thrust upon you that you weren't already aware of.
Linda| 9.15.11 @ 5:34PM
Bill- Sorry you saw it in such a negative light. They grow up. I did. Many of us got sober 28(Give or take), years ago and remained sober because of AA and the ICYPAA. There are far too many of us to number. We get sober, stayed sober and gained emotional maturity. The kids you saw are doing the best they can with what they have inside right now... But they will grow up. The condescension is beneath you.
LRR| 9.16.11 @ 12:04AM
I was born the same year ICYPAA was founded. I am very clear that one of the reasons I am alive today, is because ICYPAA was founded. I am intimately familiar with ICYPAA as I attended regularly from 1975 to 1991. In the 70’s we could be found lounging around the lobbies and hallways (and yes even singing in the elevators) in our torn and raggedy jeans. Guys wore their hair long and shaggy, gals like me, long in a braid or ponytail, as was the fashion of our day. By the 80’s some (not all) were wearing disco garb, and even dancing on roller skates… Adults grimaced from every direction as we approached in your youthful cockiness
But we were sober. We were young and probably foolish – I’m sure we were loud, and I know we were obnoxious, but we were sober. If you were to step into one of our meetings, or sharing sessions, you would hear other sober alcoholics, all under the age of 35, sharing their experience strength and hope – about issues large and small, but all related to our sobriety.
ICYPAA taught me (personally) about being of service to others. I learned this by working on hospitality committees, doing outreach in my own community, and working to first present bids to bring ICYPAA to my home town, and later to host ICYPAA in my home town.
ICYPAA taught me to stay sober in the face of adversity. ICYPAA gave me opportunities to work and function in an adult setting, and learn skills to be more effective in those settings and how to do these things sober.
I attended my last consecutive ICYPAA in 1991, having just become a parent myself, it was clear that the all night party atmosphere was not something that was going to work for my new life style, again, ICYPAA had something teach me – how to make the hard decisions – sober. I went home to raise my children, sober. I came by to visit about 10 years ago, ICYPAA had come to my state. I felt very old, compared to the general population – but I knew the spirit remained. Very young alcoholics were learning that they could have fun in sobriety and be a part of something bigger than themselves – and that they were not alone.
I was at ICYPAA in San Francisco this month along with a few dozen other older members. We had a few giggles at the expense of our younger counter-parts, and lost a little sleep from their late night activities. We sat (much more quietly), keeping mainly to ourselves, looking like someone’s tagged along parents trying to be inconspicuous. My heart was full, from some of the conversations I had with some of the younger people I met there – who gained hope from hearing my experience, and I gained hope from hearing theirs.
This summer while traveling, I changed hotels rather than stay in a hotel that was hosting a girls basketball competition camp. I know how teenagers behave, and I was tired. I am saddened, but not surprised that the attendee’s who were most visible that weekend did not show the best face of ICYPAA. The ICYPAA planning committees usually go to great length to find venues that would not impose on others. I do not speak for ICYPAA, or for AA as a whole, we don’t do that. I am responding as an individual who knows what you speak off, but has a different perspective. Anytime a whole group is judged by the behavior of a few, erroneous generalizations are likely to be made. Transcripts are available from many of our meetings, as well as audio recordings that can be found on-line, I would hope that anyone doubting the good that the ICYPAA experience can offer, would avail themselves of those speaker's talks and find out what was going on – a few steps away from the crowded hallways of the hotel, where the heart of ICYPAA lives on.
-- also, having just noticed some of the more recent responses. participation at ICYPAA is not chaperoned or supervised. The average age is actually closer to 25 these days.
Michael| 9.16.11 @ 12:47AM
It's too bad that Mr. Zeiser didn't interview any of the attendees to actually try to understand who these young people are.
If he had, he might have learned a thing or two about the difference between the exuberant behavior he saw, and what it has replaced in their lives. He might have heard the stories of redemption and recovery that abounded in that lobby and in the over 100 meetings taking place throughout the hotel. I have been clean and sober well over 30 years. I stopped drinking before I reached the age of 21. I was young, unruly, unemployed, and unkempt. Young People's groups in AA and ICYPAA were a major part of my recovery. As another comment suggested, they were the place where I could be, sober, and feel like I belonged. It's where I learned how to live sober. If Mr. Zeiser had looked more carefully he would have seen that in addition to the "wilder" denizens of that lobby, the same ICYPAA lanyards were being worn by people in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and yes even a few of us in our 60s, and one or two even older. People with 10, 20, 30 and even 50 years without a drink or drug.
When I sat in that lobby I certainly saw the exuberance that was there. But I also saw the pain that the attendees were no longer causing their loved ones. I saw the hope in their eyes that perhaps there is a place in the world for them, and that maybe, just maybe they could see a happy life without booze. And because I have attended many ICYPAA conferences over the years, and seen the growth in myself and my friends, I could look at the young people in that lobby and could see the future. I could see that many (no, not all, some will drink and drug again and die) of those in that lobby will find meaningful, sober, engagement with the world. They will be just like my friends of many years who have grown up to become welding inspectors at nuclear power plants; self-employed contractors; security consultants for major hotel firms; District Attorneys; para-legals; successful soldiers and sailors; doctors; math and physics PhD.s; Anthropologists; EMTs; police officers; clergymen and women; Artisans featured in Forbes magazine; professional fire fighters; and caring moms and dads who will do right by their kids. And like my friends they will be a part of the lives of their communities: As strong church members; soccer moms and little league dads; members of the local junior league; staunch democrats and well-informed tea party activists; volunteers at local shelters and workers on Habitat projects. To readers that might seem fanciful, but it is what I have seen unfold over 30+ years in AA and I have no reason to believe that it won't continue to happen.
Having served on a host committee for an ICYPAA I can also share that hotels across this country are generally quite happy to have us in their properties. Indeed, following our conference several years ago, when we had our close-out meeting with the hotel, we asked if there had been any problems or damage that we needed to deal with. Our convention services manager assured us that with one small exception everything went off well. He then told us "You guys were great! Nothing like the following weekend when [a major service academy] was using the hotel! They trashed the place!" My guess is that if the SF Hyatt staff were interviewed, you would find that, volume aside, they were pleasantly surprised.
And in response to Jay's question, no the photo was not from the conference. It is a stock photo of young people getting drunk. But I do not believe that Mr. Zeiser's intent was to portray reality. This is an "opinion" piece, not actual reporting. And as such he did a good job of conveying his. It's too bad that it is so ill-informed.
Bill Zeiser| 9.16.11 @ 1:34AM
It is very heartening and enlightening to hear from current ICYPAA attendees who have a different view. Again, I am pro-recovery and think that whatever works is a blessing. I do not believe that this has to be an excuse for uncivil behavior, however.
I understand the objection that I did not interview any attendees, but the above is an opinion piece, as several commenters have touched upon--some of them in the pejorative. Do you think that the average person staying in that hotel would engage in discussion with conference attendees who were overtly rude? Was I supposed to interview the girl who tried to shut the elevator door in my face, for example? If I were an objective journalist, I would be honor bound to do so, but this is opinion journalism. And my opinion remains unswayed despite my appreciation for the thoughtful comments above.
Optics matter. I am glad there is good stuff on the surface and that many people feel that ICYPAA has helped them. I would never begrudge that. However, people do judge organizations based on outward indicators of behavior. There is nothing wrong with that. Actually, it's just common sense.
Love my piece or hate it, keep clicking on it. Hell, tell a friend.
Ko| 9.16.11 @ 7:26AM
I just find it ignorant that you keep assuming that maybe 100 kids represent the 4,600+ people that were actually there
But as you have I'm sure I do as well digress at this point
ICY ICY ICY
Liz| 9.23.11 @ 1:56AM
PA PA PA
jack anderson| 9.16.11 @ 10:08AM
Well William, would that Werner have been better supported by Nazi science and had a warhead similar to Fat Boy atop his V-1 ballistic missile.
I went to my first Young People's convention at the Bethesda Hyatt in 1988, it was not a good fit as it has not been held there since. We were loud, we were up all night, and we were thrilled to see so many people having fun without getting high. We had a blast. Sadly, the vast majority of the people I knew then are dead now, but of the ones still alive over half have a graduate degree and could be regarded as successful by almost any standard. Last week I went to Sessions in Ocean City Maryland, most of the attendees are in their 50s like me but look like they are bike gang members, that being said if I dropped my wallet this is the most likely group in America to return it to me.
In closing I wonder how capable of empathy you are, had this been a group of Leukemia children leaking body fluids in the lobby would you be more understanding? I doubt it
jack anderson| 9.16.11 @ 11:03AM
now that it is posted I see a typo, the V-2 had wings, I meant V-2, The Vengeance Weapon
Bill Zeiser| 9.16.11 @ 11:03AM
Ah, yes. The old appeal to pathos. Welcome. I have been waiting for you. Naturally, I hate kids with cancer and am totally without empathy. You hit the nail on the head. It's not like you are judging me without knowing anything about me like you and other commenters are accusing me of. That would just be silly.
Why don't you just come up with some way to falsely accuse me of being a racist? That's an even quicker way of shutting down a person whose ideas you disagree with. I mean, you'll still look ridiculous to many, but it's less heavy handed than the cancer dig. Just thought you'd like the free advice.
And sincerely, I am glad that you were able to clean up. I understand that, empathetic as I actually am, I will never understand how difficult that must be or what you and others like you have gone through to avoid being a statistic.
TN| 9.20.11 @ 5:11PM
Mr. Zeiser:
I have read with amusement the article itself and the comments . I will not comment directly on the article or the comments as I believe each clearly expresses what was intended. I think we all know perspective is different depending on what we bring to the experience.
With that in mind I would like to share an experience I had in 1988. I was 6 or 7 years away from my last drink and 25 years old. I attended (not my first) ICYPAA in Nashville TN held at I believe the Opera Land Hotel. I went on a sober motorcycle ride that Saturday afternoon with a group of attendees. Unfortunately, I had an accident and ended up in the emergency room with what turned out to be minor injuries however, my motorcycle was not as lucky. As I lie (sp?/word? I can never remember the rule on this on) in my hotel bed that evening in extreme pain (I took no pain medication stronger then aspirin) when there was a knock at the door. When my friend answered the door there, to our surprise, was a gentleman dressed in chaps and a leather jacket with an plastic bag full of cash for me. The total cost of the hospital stay the ambulance ride and hauling what remained of my bike home was $916.00 the money this man brought to my room the night was $936.00. I donated the other $20.00 back to AA.
First, I must tell you that although I went on the sober ride I was not what I would describe as a biker. In fact had I met the gentleman who brought me the money on the street at night I would have crossed to the other side in fear.
Second, I was shocked to learn that some of the attendees of the ICYPAA who had been on the sober ride stood outside one of the conference events and asked for donations for me as they had correctly heard I had no insurance. I would not have believed that my friends would do such a thing let alone these total strangers.
My point? That looks can be deceiving and you never know when people will go beyond what is required. That whether one likes your article or hates it depends on their vantage point. The old adage "never judge a book by it's cover" still applies. I am glad that as a result of the article all who have followed it have had a chance, if they wished, to read a little of the book, which ratty cover you exposed them to. God bless you.
jack anderson| 9.16.11 @ 11:20AM
But I do like your style, very alliterative, not a comma splice in the piece!
oldtimer| 9.16.11 @ 12:34PM
I acknowledge that this is an opinion piece and that you have a right to that opinion. I actually feel very sad that you chose this event to vent whatever frustration you have going on in your life. You were clearly warned by the venue that this event would be happening and there would be unconventional behavior, yet you chose to keep your reservation. Its almost like you purposely went there to criticize. As stated in previous postings, what you may have seen in the lobby is not an accurate depictation of what was happening there that weekend. Had you been able to take 100 steps into one of the meeting rooms, I think you would have seen this event a little differently. Maybe you would have preferred to stay in a hotel with Ivy college students who were up partying all night long (on their parents dime) and destroying hotel property. I wonder if those colleges take the time to have the venues they stay in send out warnings that there may be unconventional behavior. I know the one I stayed in didn't. I will tell you this, I would not write such a judgmental opinion about Ivy college students as a whole because of one group of entitled brats. I think youropinion was unfair to many who struggle on a daily basis to not be that panhandler you saw outside. I pray that you never have a young person in your family or close range that may need the help of the wonderful young people in AA, because I think your current opinion may come back to bite you. I wonder if you will write about that?
I find the "fine print" regarding posting to this site interesting. It states: "We encourage readers to share and discuss their thoughtful and relevant comments about this Spectator article. Comment are routinely monitored and will be deleted if profane, bigoted, or grossly impolite...." I find your opinion to be "bigoted" and "grossly impolite." You are riding a very high horse, it may be time to come down.
Occam's Tool| 9.22.11 @ 7:00PM
I've dealt with a lot of overtly psychotic adolescents who were capable of polite behavior towards other people. Closing the elevator on people trying to make it is rude. I think that's the point here.
Metz| 9.23.11 @ 2:50AM
I have never had such a feeling of compulsion to reply to any article I have read in my entire life.
Sir, your article is ignorant. Whilst you were commiserating with strangers in the lobby; young people were using a fellowship based upon one recovering alcoholic helping another. I attended ICYPAA 2011 and 2007, as well as ACYPAA (All California YPAA) 2008, 2010, and 2011, and will attend in the future. My experience: Thousands of young adults, mostly between the ages of 18-30, with one common purpose -- To help carry the message to alcoholics who still suffer -- is absolutely electrifying. Please don't confuse that with electrocuting.
I get the impression you saw the excitement shared between myself and my companions, acquaintances, and yes, total strangers, as total chaos. I cannot blame you for this. Notwithstanding, you mentioned you only observed for a short period of time. I'm unaware if you got a chance to actually speak to any of these individuals; but I can assure you that if you had spoken with a large portion of them, those feelings of disdain and unwelcoming would have disappeared.
Instead, you chose to alienate an entire demographic based upon a few negative experiences; ergo: failed to see the beauty of the forest through some of its trees.
I haven't had a drink or drug in nearly 7 years. I'm 26 years old. I got sober at 19. I was homeless, helpless, and hopeless, and drink and drug alike brought me to my knees on a destructive path. I shredded every relationship I had with my family and friends. I found Alcoholics Anonymous, and my life changed. I am now a business owner with an education. I have God in my life. I go to bed at a reasonable hour, and don't sleep away the day. I hold open doors for people behind me. I try not to pass judgement, and if I do, I don't act upon it. I again have a family and friends, all of whom I love. I respect my elders, and also my juniors. I pay taxes. I do whatever I can to help anybody I can, regardless of whether or not they're members of AA. I have a new lease on life.
All of this took a long process. I had to be able to respect myself before I could be respectful of my surroundings, but that's all part of the process. I implore that the author have empathy. Trust in the process.
Adam D.| 9.24.11 @ 6:39AM
This is one of the most noxious, heinous, narrow-minded, and ignorant "journalistic opinions" I have ever seen published (yes, even with the advent of the internet where even the creepiest, most misguided souls can vent inappropriately).
Beyond the glaring factual misrepresentations, the tone of the article is palpably nauseating. As a 31-year old button-down oxford wearing attendee this year at San Francisco's ICYPAA I can attest that there were throngs of people in their teens, twenties, and thirties and many were bore tattoos and piercings, and many were rowdy. But I cannot imagine that any other group of 5,000 people in that age range would have conducted themselves on the whole as well as this group did. And the aforementioned tone of your article painted this group in such a disgusting and inaccurate light that the only thing a sane person can do, when coupled with the pervasive factual inaccuracies, is question your integrity viciously and without prejudice. After all, you did write and publish this piece. I have no idea what your under-lying motives were in writing this article, but they certainly were not to report on the phenomenon that was the 53rd ICYPAA. And frankly you should be ashamed of yourself Mr. Zeisler.
Sara G. | 9.30.11 @ 3:35PM
be careful, one of those obnoxious brats with the tattoos and piercings might end up saving your childs life one day.
CA| 10.8.11 @ 2:10AM
I have no problem with opinoinated people, but when someone takes it to far i have an issue with it. I think you should make your profession or hobbie of journolisim a good thing instead of putting people down when obviously you have no right to take 4,000 young peoples inventory. Who are you to say these things? Like sara g. said watch karma will come and bite you in the ass. Not to say that your child or a close friend is and addict or alcoholic but you never know. I think you should keep these thoughts to your self because this type of articile you wrote. If a parent of a suffering addict or alcoholic reads this and they think "oh A.A doesnt seem like a good place for recovery." Then you took away there hope to help there child get better. Now you call yourslef a jounolist any one who is going to share something like this should get all the facts, and cover all there bases. I can tell you just dont get it.
Pinds| 2.15.12 @ 11:43AM
These teens are being teens. Sober or drunk, kids are kids and they do wacky things - ESPECIALLY when they are in large groups.