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A Further Perspective

Did 9/11 Change America Religiously?

By on 9.14.11 @ 6:07AM

Or did it end up encouraging some religious leaders to think politically?

A recent survey reports New York area regular church attendance has increased by about one third over the last decade, though surely many factors besides 9/11 contributed. The increased religiosity in New York is ironic given its mayor’s controversial decision to exclude clergy and formal prayers from the city’s 9/11 commemoration.

Christianity Today magazine recently asked prominent evangelicals to reflect on how 9/11 affected them and their ministries. Liberal evangelical writer Philip Yancey reflected politically, noting the last decade has “taught us the limits of force” and that “imposing democracy on Iraq and Afghanistan has come at a terrible cost to all parties, with no guarantee of long-term success.” He sardonically observed that Tunisia and Egypt “gained freedom almost overnight in a grassroots protest against powerful regimes.” He should have asked whether these anti-authoritarian revolts, whose ultimate outcomes also have “no guarantee of long-term success,” would have occurred absent democracy (however flawed and potentially transitory) in Iraq and Afghanistan. He cited noble Christian missionary families in recent times who forgave the murderers of their martyred loved ones. Such mercy is indeed required for persons of deep faith, but civil governments are vocationally called to defend their people, not turn the cheek. Yancey then seemingly likened America’s post 9/11 treatment of Muslims to historic Christian/European persecution of the Jews. “We dare not do to Muslims what we have, to our shame, done to Jews,” he concluded, as though Muslim Americans are potentially threatened by pogroms or Holocaust.

Equally provocatively, United Methodist Bishop and popular preacher/writer Will Willimon, a prominent pacifist, lamented how the “most powerful, militarized nation in the world” thought of itself as “an innocent victim” after 9/11, with “deadly” consequences. Bush and Obama spent “billions asking the military to rectify the crime of a small band of lawless individuals, destroying a couple of nations who had little to do with it, in the costliest, longest series of wars in the history of the United States,” he opined. Although a savvy theologian, Willimon’s political observations are often breathtakingly facile. He regretted the supposed “giddy enthusiasm” of some Christians for war amid the troubling “ubiquity of flags and patriotic extravaganzas,” revealing “9/11 as our greatest Christological defeat.” American Christianity had purportedly “lost the theological means to distinguish between the United States and the kingdom of God.” Al Qaeda and America’s “flag-waving boosters” were of “one mind” in rejecting the “nonviolent way of Jesus.” Feeling “vulnerable,” American Christians “reached for the flag, not the Cross.” Willimon and the neo-Anabaptists now so popular in evangelical academia chronically reject traditional Christian distinctions between civil responsibilities and devotion to God. For them, any recognition of earthly place or temporal rule is idolatrous. The result is typically sneering commentary that treats average believers with condescension. Those average, supposedly mindless flag wavers in America’s churches are often more theologically astute than their snooty, elitist critics.

None of the respondents in the Christianity Today forum directly commented much on 9/11’s sinister perpetrators and their motives. Perhaps the question posed to them required mostly self-reflection. Billy Graham’s daughter, Anne Graham Lotz, noted how 9/11 caused her more powerfully to realize her own sinfulness and God’s ultimate judgment of the world. Her message seemed more spiritually timeless than Willimon’s political tirade. It also recalled the late neoconservative thinker Irving Kristol’s somewhat nostalgic recollection after 9/11 that American clergy of an earlier era routinely exploited national calamities to call for personal repentance. Today, social rants and finger wagging at others often seem more popular. 

In his forum comments, Christian songwriter Matt Redman recounted that he and his wife after 9/11 composed the hymn “Blessed Be Your Name.” He described it as a call to trust God no matter the season. I once heard this lovely song in a remote country church, illustrating the reach of this still fairly young hymn. It’s a Job-like antidote to the sometimes overly sunny optimism of American religiosity.

Blessed be Your name
 On the road marked with suffering
 Though there’s pain in the offering
 Blessed be Your name

Every blessing You pour out
 I’ll turn back to praise
 When the darkness closes in, Lord
 Still I will say

Blessed be the name of the Lord
 Blessed be Your name
 Blessed be the name of the Lord
 Blessed be Your glorious name.

You give and take away
 You give and take away
 My heart will choose to say
 Lord, blessed be Your name

The true impact of 9/11 on America’s religious faith is likely immeasurable by any survey. Hopefully the horrors of that day, with subsequent days, have reminded many of life’s fragility and yet the hope that Divine Providence has a ruling purpose that merits trust and praise.

About the Author

Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.


Letter to the Editor View all comments (137) |

emilio lizardo, PhD| 9.14.11 @ 7:54AM

Willimon et al. : Comsymp clerics infesting the Body of Christ

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:16PM

One thing Marge doesn't get is how much the Catholic Church did in post 9/11 charity work. Many houses of worship and religious organisations did pitch in, but the Catholic Church did as much as any private org. did.

donserge| 9.14.11 @ 8:02AM

Willimon a "savvy theologian"? Christianity Today a publication to be quoted? Both have more in common with socialism that true Christianity.

Brian Mc| 9.14.11 @ 8:15AM

My ability to walk with God begins, and ends, at the Flag. If one fails to understand why it is the case, to them I am just a jingoist. So be it; but nonetheless, I will defend it to my dying breath. I try to imagine a world where Old Glory waves no more and am terrified by the prospect. The vacuum created is just too ugly to comprehend.

Ryan| 9.14.11 @ 11:11AM

So there wasn't religion before America?

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:20PM

Brian isn't a patriot, he is a nationalistic fetishist.
Born on the 4th of July, munching apple pie, flag on the front porch...
that's not patriotism, it isn't even nationalism or jingoism-- it is misty-eyed Smarm worthy of Jimmuh Cawtah and his evangelism.

Quartermaster| 9.14.11 @ 8:22PM

At least he has something to be a "fetishist" about. Your nihilism gives you nothing in that regard, or any other regard.

John786| 9.14.11 @ 9:23AM

Glad to see that there are christain writers who are trying to calm things rather than turn 9/11 into an excuse for hate. Long live their moderation and patience. A true reflection of the Godly life.

W| 9.14.11 @ 10:38AM

John,
Where are the muslim writers and muslim mullahs and leaders who are trying to calm things. Maybe you could post links to these peaceful muslim sites, and give us the names.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 1:42PM

W:
You will not find them. Unlike Christianity, Islam makes a total claim to every aspect of the believers' life. Christianity sets the believer apart from the state as a citizen of a different kingdom. It emphasizes the worth of the individual as against the collective. There is in Islam no Grace, no redemption, but only obedience and works. The great thing about religion in America is that it is self imposed rather than state imposed. Yes, there has been a greater interest in and study of religion in all aspects since 9-11 which ultimately strengthens the Faith of those who examine their beliefs and premises. Socrates said, "The unexamined life is not worth living." We grow as individuals when we examine and reflect on how our beliefs effect each of us.

John786| 9.14.11 @ 2:27PM

"you will not find them". Al kadhab you indeed tell lies. No religion on the earth calls for the slaughter of the innocent. This dispersion on the last monotheistic revelation only makes a mockery of you. It is interesting to note that even the most so called radical movements Taliban , hamas condemned 9/11. When are you going to condemm: the drone holocoast, ethnic murder in Palestine, the infinite atrocities in Iraq etc.. etc..

W| 9.14.11 @ 2:46PM

Johnny Muhammod,
Instead of answering my question, you attack, why don't you just answer my question? Or maybe you are researching the names?

John786| 9.14.11 @ 4:11PM

I suggest google matey .A great American innovation. God bless America. I can't keep spoon feeding you forever. You conflate, confuse. You see only black on the other side. But the believers are patient condemning even when it's against themselves.

W| 9.14.11 @ 7:51PM

JohnnyMuhammed.
So the answer is you do not know of any. If there were you would be posting it.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 3:08PM

Ahh John, you obviously have not been reading my posts over the months. That said you and I, given our backgrounds, both know the Truth of the matter. Your fervor is to be admired albeit misplaced as it is.

John786| 9.14.11 @ 4:29PM

The truth. Now thats a heavy word. The truth is We are all going die one day. And will have to answe to the merciful for our deeds. No Soul will be bear anothers sin. The final great adventure.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 5:35PM

John:
Yes our ultimate death is in fact Truth. What comes after is a reality we will all experience. I shall rely on the Grace of God, through Christ, and not on the Arkan al-Islam and its' works.

John786| 9.14.11 @ 7:17PM

Ah salvation. Salvation is for those who have certainty in meeting their lord and master - God. To him alone belongs all worship. Prophet Jesus (pbuh) ( Prophet Isa) was one of God's messengers and a true Muslim in the religion of Al Islam. In that sense I'm also a Christian. Mr Al adab may God guide you to Tauhid and the true message of prophet Isa and all the biblical prophets. Al Islam is as old as our Grandfather Adam (sa). Without Tauhid there is no salvation- sorry.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 7:28PM

John:
Do we not all seek wisdom as the wakd of life?

Your understanding is clear as to you ,and to my former brothers (perhaps brothers still) all are Muslim. Nonetheless there remains a great distinction between say the theology of Christianity and the Kalam of Islam. To help you John and others who may see, what if I mentioned I was once Hadji? You see, it is only through Christ that men may find Grace for without that Grace, there is no salvation. It is a distinction with a difference. May He guide your understanding.

Good evening John.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 8:22PM

I praise God for you, Al Adab.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 9:28PM

Margie,
You humble me.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:07PM

Al Adab,

You must sharpen your sword.
One day you are going to need it.

Where are the Bible believing Christians to defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ against those who trample it under foot?

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:24PM

"John,
Where are the muslim writers and muslim mullahs and leaders who are trying to calm things. Maybe you could post links to these peaceful muslim sites, and give us the names."

W,
America IS imperialist, only our imperialism is better than their's, that's all.
Don't make it sound as if America is saintly, or the world is a giant cream pie.

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:35PM

democracy is bad, only it is better than Jihadism.
Our degree of evil is merely less than their's.
In fact, IMO there is no good- only shades of evil.

Tina B| 9.17.11 @ 9:12AM

That's why we call ypu a nihilist. If you only believe in evil, and there is no Good, then there is no reason to live. So why are we here? To expose evil in all its horrible shades? To please the Evil One?

Of course you probably don't choose to believe the shades of evil just 'happened', through, oh, evolution maybe? Must be tough to have nowhere to go to find fresh air, the sweetness we experience through God's wonnderful Grace, through a personal relationship with the Creator of the Universe, Almighty God.

Jesus' birth, death and resurrection give us peace, in the midst of storms and suffering. We can actually go to a Person, and the most powerful Person at that, and ask for help. Then we trust Him that whatever befalls, He will bring good from our circumstances to bless others as well as ourselves. Ultimately. We've seen it happen, all of us, Margie, Al Adab, W, and many others who post here and follow Christ.

Just ask God for faith, He promises to grant that request. But you must be sincere, after all, He can see your heart.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.14.11 @ 9:52AM

Wow guys,
Check this out over at NRO.
Thanking God for W and Dick Cheny!

http://www.nationalreview.com/.....-jim-lacey

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:27PM

Why don't you thank God for LBJ and Nixon while you are at it? they were patriotic men who just... made a few mistakes... they were in over their heads... they didn't know what they were getting into.

Derek Leaberry| 9.14.11 @ 11:36AM

Sad to say, no. The country marches on to moral degradation and cultural squalor. A religious country does not abort 1 million human being a year. A religious country does not have homosexual marriage. A religious country doesn't have open homosexuals serving in its military. A religious country doesn't have a 40 % illegitimacy rate. A religious country doesn't have a 50 % divorce rate.

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:28PM

Finally! you admit America is not a truly Christian nation; and perhaps it never really was.

Citizen Jerry| 9.14.11 @ 11:56AM

It's really pathetic when leaders of mainline Protestant denominations that have long since abandoned "the faith once given" try to impose their secular worldview on that faith.

Beating our swords into plowshares is something that will happen in God's eternal kingdom. But pacifists try to make it happen in a fallen world. Sorry, but until that eternal kingdom comes to pass, those who beat their swords into plowshares will soon be tilling the ground for those who didn't.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 1:46PM

What I believe you are saying is that the Kingdom of God is not of this world. The attempt to create a Heaven on Earth through political control is doomed to fail. In this you are correct.

W| 9.14.11 @ 2:27PM

Al Adab,
The commies attempted their version of Heaven on Earth resulting in over one hundred million dead. You are absolutely correct that it will fail. To force people to behave they way they want requires a powerful central government mandating every aspect of your life. You can dress it up as a benevolent nanny state, like the western European countries, or you can have a vicious totalitarian state such as the former communist countries, and the current North Korea, and the Muslim countries ruled by the extremists.

The common thread is that the rulers always believe they know best how you should live.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 3:10PM

And thereby W hangs the age old conflict between Liberty and Order. While they can c0-exist they do so only under Law. The rule of men will fail every time.

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:30PM

which implies American can-do optimism is misplaced. Progress is merely scientific progress--
if that.

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:38PM

..verifiable progress exists in pure science; however applied science has been a history of mostly catastrophes; capitalist catastrophes have merely been less catastrophic than Communist and Fascist catastrophies.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 5:40PM

Brooksie:
If what you mean is that there is no heaven on Earth, you are correct. It is foolish beyond words to attempt to impose such a thing through political force.

Julian| 9.14.11 @ 12:26PM

There are many problems with Mark Tooley's opinion piece ; I will identify a few. First, there is nothing "ironic" about the government of a city full of religious believers (of all types) insisting on a secular governmental commemoration of 9/11. The believers have other venues for their prayers; silent prayer is not prevented; and the separation of church and state is maintained. Second, the statement that Muslim Americans are no potentially threatened by pogroms or the Holocaust and that therefore Christians need not worry about their treatment of Muslims conflates present action with future consequences. Any church historian would acknowledge that the kinds of antisemitic statements the church started to make in the patristic period did teach generations of Christians--including nineteenth-century Russians and twentieth-century Germans, among many others--that Jews were their enemies. I think that Yancy is correct to urge that Christians not go down that path again.
Finally, dismissing the arguments of "neo-Anabaptists" because they come from a numerical minority of American Christians is disingenuous. Since when does that make sincere believers "snooty, elitist critics"? They have a right to their interpretation of scripture and are no less sincere, or intelligent, that the "flag wavers" Tooley defends.

Is it not possible to advance an argument about the positive ways in which America has changed religiously without mocking or misrepresenting points of view with which one does not agree? Humility is a virtue.

IzeHavitt| 9.14.11 @ 12:41PM

No, Julian, they DON'T have a right to interpret Scripture as they see fit. No one does. It was God Himself who authored His Word. (see Psalm 138:2 and II Timothy 3: 16,17) To those who then wonder how the Scripture is to be interpreted, please note that the Scripture interprets itself. As to the academic "leadership", they look very much like latter day Sadducees to me.

Julian| 9.14.11 @ 12:47PM

In the United States of America, about which Mark Tooley is writing, believers do--according to the Constitution, which Tooley respects--have the right to interpret Scripture for themselves.

I said nothing about academic leadership, and your own reference is not clear. Academic leaders of what institutions? With what institutionally defined responsibilities (as distinct from whatever interventions you think they should make?) Again, a little humility goes a long way.

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 1:56PM

Julian:
All the Constitution says is that the government will not favor one religious persuation over others nor prevent people from following their own understanding and that the government will not establish (make mandatory) one particular sect. It does not mandate that government ignore nor show respect to the beliefs of citizens.

The founders of course were dealing strictly with the various Christian demoninations and the Jewish believers in their midst. Other faiths at that time were foreign to the American experience. The Constitution assumes a variety of Chirstian practice and Christian belief as the cultural comonality.

Just as we have set aside a consensus in favor of Western Civilization (wrongly so I believe) we also have set aside the cultural norms of religion in many cases. We have tried to construct a new cultural synthesis and consensus but as of yet unsuccessfully. That in some respects is what the post 9-11 religious debate is about.

Julian| 9.14.11 @ 2:50PM

As you say, the Constitution says that government will not favor one religious interpretation over another. That is my point: Christians in the US have the right to interpret Scripture for themselves. The people Tooley calls "neo-Anabaptists" are no less patriotic for advancing a "minority" Christian interpretation. They are not "setting aside the cultural norms of religion" by dissenting from a more widely held Christian interpretation of the citizen's responsibilities. America gives all of us that right.

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 5:50PM

The perspective of the Founders was not so limited. As Jefferson wrote in his Autobiography:

Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination.
-Thomas Jefferson, Autobiography, in reference to the Virginia Act for Religious Freedom

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 6:33PM

I won't second guess what Jefferson might have been thinking. Nonetheless during the enlightenment many often used more neutral of less personal terms for the Deity. Still it might make sense to suppose that the term "our religion" referred to Chirsitanity however understood which was the Faith the Founders held in common. I do though appreciate the citation as it is revelatory.
Other terms often found in the writings.
Creator (TJ used it in Declaration)
Providence
Author of Liberty
Designer or Architect (masonic no doubt)

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 2:20PM

Hi, Al Adab. Thanks, by the way, for all your lovely posts. They're a pleasure to read.

Almost all the Founders were Christians of fairly orthodox views. As I'm sure you know, Jefferson was not. He was a Deist. While he admired Christ as a brilliant moral teacher, he explicitly denied the story of Christ's virgin birth, his ressurection and his divinity.

Margie| 9.16.11 @ 11:32PM

RCV is a blatant liar who doesn't believe the whole Bible is from God.
He has absolutely NO authority to judge anyone~ much less Thomas Jefferson.
Go crawl back under your rock, punk.

sirbourbon| 9.14.11 @ 1:12PM

"... Scripture interprets itself."

Oh, really? From the Hebrew to the Greek to the Latin to the various languages. The you have the Catholic church and their many Councils thoroughout history that were formed to interpret certain passages from Scripture. some of these conferences or councils took years to "interpret" a small portion of scripture.

Take the Beatitudes as recorded in Matthew:
"Blessed are the peacemakers for they will be called the children of God."

Who are the "peacemakers" and what kind of peace are they seeking or peace from whom or what? Is it from war, tyrants, their neighbors.etc.? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_5:9

St. Augustine used that passage to form his theory of Just war. But inview of the wars we ae engaged in in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, one could never call them just sinc they violate the tenets of Augustine's "Just war" in that tye are not purely defensive war but are designed to bring something to the James Madison. Madison is considered the "father of the Constitution," whereas Bush is considered the "decider in chief" or the holder of the bull horn.

Citizen Jerry| 9.14.11 @ 3:14PM

Just a note: Those who want to be taken seriously would never cite Wikipedia as a credible source of information.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 3:14PM

I'll take my stand with what God says, and He says this:

"First of all you must understand this, that no Prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, because no Prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." 2 Peter 1:20 & 21.

The problem with the Catholic church is that it went against the Word of God, and undertook to interpret as they saw fit, adding doctrine completely unbiblical.

And if that wasn't enough they then undertook to torture and kill millions of Bible believing Christians who refused to bow the knee to the Papists.

This Religion has NO authority what so ever over anyone.

Christians, read your Bibles, and abide in Christ Himself.

"Every Word of God proves true; He is a Shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His Words, lest he rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Prov. 30: 5 & 6.

And Augustine wasn't one of the Apostles, and Christians are not beholden to his teachings, but only to the teachings of Christ, and those whom He appointed.

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God our Father, who loved us and gave us eternal comfort and good hope through grace, comfort your hearts and establish them in every good work and word." 2 Thess. 2:15-17.

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 5:38PM

Before you purport to lecture people on Christian doctrine, Margie, answer the question for once: Do you believe that Jesus is God?

People deserve to know if you are really a Christian.

Joseph| 9.14.11 @ 7:22PM

Margie has invented her own religion of one. She is not a Christian by any definition of normal, rational people. She reads her bible and knows what God means in every word. But she won't answer.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 8:19PM

And Joseph is a one man band of liars.

And I have invented nothing.

Point to one thing I have invented there, kiddo~ but you cannot.

Joseph| 9.14.11 @ 8:24PM

Well, kiddo Margie, you invented your little cult of one.
Why don't your answer the simple question: Is Jesus God? Yes or no will suffice.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 8:31PM

Oops. wrong!
You may not know it because you are asleep under your rock most days, but in fact there are millions upon millions of Bible believing Christians the world over.
And they reject the cult of Catholicism, as well as all other cults around the World, whether Religious or secular.
Jesus Christ is LORD. And HIM ONLY SHALL I SERVE.

How about you, Joey?

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 8:47PM

"..yet for us there is one God, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist." 1 Cor. 8:6.

Do you and RCV believe the Scripture?

Joseph| 9.14.11 @ 8:54PM

Still dodging, weaving, and evading. Answer the question, yes or no.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 9:09PM

YOU must answer the question that you present to me here~ for ALL who read here KNOW Whom it is that I believe.

So, get me behind me, Satan.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 9:11PM

Get THEE behind me, Satan!
FRAUD!

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 10:35PM

Margie, you are of course entitled to believe what you wish, but you are not a Christian by any commonly accepted meaning of the term. You don't believe Jesus Christ is God. You believe he is "Lord", but not divine. I'm sorry to break the news to you, but your conception of Jesus is closer to Islam than to Christianity. They think He's special, too, but not God.

Christians acknowledge that Jesus Christ is God, always was, of one being with the Father. You don't.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 12:01AM

""..yet for us there is one God, the Father, from Whom are all things and for Whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through Whom are all things and through Whom we exist." 1 Cor. 8:6.

Do you and RCV believe the Scripture?

Ryan| 9.15.11 @ 9:05AM

It is well and good that you answer with scripture; however, it really is a little evasive. He's asking for a "yes" or "no" here, something that I never quite got out of you with asking whether or not you believed that true Christians can believe in the Trinity.

From previous conversations, here is almost direct quotes from you:

No true Christian can believe anything unbiblical.

The Trinity is unbiblical.

Therefore, no true Christian can believe in the Trinity.

That is what I have gathered. You have never given a plain yes or no to the answer.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:05PM

And here comes the other Papist, good old Ryan.

It is well and good that I answer from Scripture he says.... BUT!!

LOL.

""Everyone transgressing and not abiding
in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ,
this one has the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not
bear this doctrine, do not receive him into
the house, and do not speak a greeting to
him." 2 Jn. 1:9 & 10.

And I shall ALWAYS do so.

Ryan| 9.15.11 @ 2:23PM

Here's the problem - you're quoting a scripture that those of us who believe in the Trinity have always used to back up our point.

Therefore, it comes down to "yes" or "no."

And whether or not you are willing to throw practically every single person who proclaims the name of Christ into hell because they believe in the Trinity.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 3:00PM

You, Ryan, are a blatant lying snake.
I can't throw anyone into Hell, nor can YOU give me that power.

When you stand before Christ, you will be held accountable for making things up~ along with the others like you, whose consciences are seared, and who persist in creating and practicing a lie:

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood." Rev. 22:14 & 15.

Ryan| 9.16.11 @ 8:21AM

True enough that you can't personally condemn someone to hell, but you appear to proclaim a judgment upon every Trinitarian, ever....which means practically everyone who ever proclaimed Christ.

And you didn't answer the question.

Nick| 9.16.11 @ 7:39PM

Ryan,

Do you happen to know if Seventh Day Adventists deny the Holy Trinity?

Just curious. It might explain a lot.
God Bless!

Margie| 9.16.11 @ 11:33PM

Screw you, punk.
You're a freaking liar.
I have NOT done what you say here.

Nick| 9.14.11 @ 11:07PM

Margie,

"And if that wasn't enough they then undertook to torture and kill millions of Bible believing Christians who refused to bow the knee to the Papists."

No, they did not. And, millions is a ridiculous figure. It is not found in the historical record.

Please, learn the actual history.
God Bless!

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 12:01AM

For 600 years they tortured and killed Bible believing Christians. Thousands at a time, entire families~ you are a liar and an enemy of the Cross of Christ who also calls the Martyrs of Christ heretics.

http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/contents.htm

Repent!

Nick| 9.15.11 @ 12:24AM

Margie,

No, they didn't. And, I cannot repent for the deeds of others. Sorry.

You never replied as to whether, or not, you knew what the word Armageddon means, or, to what it refers? I repeat, research its etymology. It is very interesting.
God Bless!

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:21AM

You can say that all you want, Nick.
You are on the side of a false Religion and have taken your stand with liars who murdered Bible believing Christians for CENTURIES.
You consider them heretics just as the perverted Papists did.
You feel empowered because your pal, Ken has joined the fray.
You all are a disgrace to the Word of God.

Nick| 9.15.11 @ 10:55PM

Margie,

"You feel empowered because your pal, Ken has joined the fray."

I have always defended the Catholic Church.
Ken had nothing to do with it.

So, I don't know what you are talking about.

Nick| 9.15.11 @ 11:01PM

Also, what about Armageddon? Do you understand to what that word is referring?

Here's a hint: It is a reference to two major events found in the Old Testament. Most of the Book of Revelation either alludes to, or, uses language found in, the Old Testament.

Please, research this subject. It is fascinating.
God Bless!

Margie| 9.16.11 @ 11:33PM

Stuff it, Papist.

Nick| 9.17.11 @ 1:04AM

Margie,

This, also, is not an answer. Nor, is it an argument.

I hope and pray that you study this word Armageddon. You will get much out of it.
God Bless!

sirbourbon| 9.14.11 @ 12:48PM

"Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called_____________"

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 3:29PM

Mr. Tooley,

"Christianity Today magazine recently asked prominent evangelicals.."

Ugh. That truly says it all right there.
What IS a prominent evangelical, anyway?
If the likes of Yancey et al and Christianity Today are supposed to be same~ it is no wonder the World has such a dim view of Christians and Christianity.

The true Christians and "prominent" evangelicals are the ones that are the workers in the field, the ones you and I will never know about until, by the Grace of God, we make it to Heaven to meet them.

They're the ones who feed the poor, help the weak, take in the orphan and visit the widow.

They're the ones who quietly abide in Christ and His Words in the Bible and accept no other teachings outside of it that don't match up. They are willing to die for their testimony to Jesus Christ, along with their brethren, the saints and Martyrs who went before them.

We never hear about them, or rarely. One place we can read about some of them, is here:

http://www.persecution.com/

I liked your article, sir. And loved the words of the song of the young brother, Matt Redman that you posted.

This is what we need to hear more of!

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:31PM

Stop picking on Catholics, Marge.

Alan Brooks| 9.14.11 @ 4:32PM

I'll repeat it thousands of times until you repent of your anti-Catholic hard-heartedness.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 5:09PM

"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed." Jn. 8:36.

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 5:39PM

Before you purport to lecture people on Christian doctrine, Margie, answer the question for once: Do you believe that Jesus is God?

People deserve to know if you are really a Christian.

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 5:41PM

At least Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is true God and true Man, of one being with the Father.

Do you, Margie?

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 6:33PM

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. ... And the Word became flesh and lived among us, and we have seen His glory, the glory as of a father's only son, full of grace and truth." John 1-2, 14.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 8:12PM

If you really believed that, RCV~ you woudn't be a flaming Leftist.
And you wouldn't reject some parts of the Bible, including that homosexuality is sin. And you wouldn't throw the Apostle Paul's words out from your "belief system."
You also wouldn't be behaving like a modern day Inquisitor along with your Catholic pals here~ and be defending the Papacy.
IF you were a Christian.
Christians believe every Word of God. Therefore, you have excluded yourself forthwith.
So, you, like the modern day Papists are flaming hypocrites, and have absolutely, positively NO authority to question anyone~ let alone a Bible believing question.

Now~ Obama suck up~ you may go crawl back under that rock you came out from under.
I bow to no one, except Jesus Christ Himself.

Joseph| 9.14.11 @ 8:56PM

According to the cult of Margie liberals can't be Christians. Who are you to judge who is a Christian when you aren't one.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 9:07PM

According to the accuser of the brethren (Satan) I am not a Christian. You are in good company, sir. Heh.
Yet, according to the Scripture and the Word of God, I am.
Yet you would accuse me of judging according to the Scriptures!
LOL.
You are blind, pitiable, poor and naked~ and do not even realize it.

"For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing; not knowing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked." Rev. 3:17.

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 10:38PM

Who you do not acknowledge is God. You may be a wonderful person, you may study the Bible a lot (although not, apparently, the Gospel of John), but you are simply not a Christian.

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 10:45PM

Christians acknowledge that Jesus is God. You don't. All the rest is doctrinal squabbling.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 12:09AM

"..but in these last days He has spoken to us by a Son, whom He appointed the Heir of all things, through whom also He created the world.
He reflects the glory of God and bears the very stamp of His Nature, upholding the universe by His Word of power. When He had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right Hand of the Majesty on High, having become as much superior to angels as the Name He has obtained is more excellent than theirs." Heb. 1:2-4.

I believe every Word of God~ do you?
Do you reject the Scripture, which, as it is written, can NOT be broken?

Who do you serve, liar?
Defender of perversion and hater of Christians?

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 12:17AM

"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only Son of God.
And this is the Judgment, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
For every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." Jn. 3:16-20.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 8:17PM

p.s. And of course true to the fraud that you are, never, EVER deal with the substance of my above post~ just attack the messenger.

True to form.

However in truth, not a word that I said is false.

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 10:41PM

"... And the Word was God ... And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us..". Jesus, Margie -- God -- of one being withe Father.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 12:04AM

"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's Hand.
I and the Father are one."
Jn. 10:29 & 30.

Do you believe the Scripture, RCV~ or are you your own god?

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 12:58AM

Do you believe the Gospel of John, that in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God; and that the Word (God) became flesh and dwelt amongst us? That's Jesus, Margie, God! Do you believe this scripture?

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 1:05AM

Yes, I believe that Jesus and the Father are one. They have been so since the beginning as the Apostle John teaches us.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:18AM

Well, isn't that sweet!
Now, repent of your lying accusations and disbelief, for you protect the homosexual and reject the Apostle Paul~ you claim Sin isn't Sin~ you are a fraud.

You cannot pick and choose which part of the Word of God to believe, yet you do so and make yourself a Judge of the Christian~ you already have your reward you fake, phony piece of garbage.

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 11:18AM

It's you who pick and choose Margie: You don't accept John's account of Jesus as God made flesh who dwelt among us. You don't accept Paul's explanation of Christ's sacrifice as the "end of the Law". You violate Jesus's admonition to love your neighbor as yoursef by the calumny you heap upon everyone who tries to discuss any point with you. And you reject Christ's divinity.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:02PM

RCV,

What everyone knows that is honest is that you are a liar.
What God knows is who I am and what I believe, and He knows that I believe every Word of God.
It is YOU who pick and choose which Words of His to believe.
You have openly mocked the Word of God in these threads at AmSpec~ you mock the Apostle Paul and reject his words, you say that homosexuality isn't Sin~ therefore you are in rebellion towards God.

You bear false witness against me here~ outrightly saying I do not believe in God and Jesus~and that I am not a Christian.

You have no idea just how much trouble you are in with God for so doing!

Disgusting liar!

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 7:18PM

"You have no idea just how much trouble you are in with God for so doing!"

Margie, if any comment of yours captures your megalomania, that's the one.

Margie| 9.16.11 @ 11:34PM

Stuff it, punk.

Ken (Old Texican)| 9.14.11 @ 8:49PM

Margie,
We are ALL sinners and a-holes saved by grace.
Please back off just a bit.
The Holy Spirit does trump.....TRUMP...bullcorn that churches teach.

There are a lot of Christians in spite of Rome.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 9:01PM

Back off? Never.
I will NEVER back off from speaking the truth.
It is a shame that you do not join me in speaking it.
I should be nice to people who want to throw me to the lions?
How come you do not defend the gospel of Jesus Christ?
Are you too busy defending Darwinism? Are you too busy proclaiming that homosexuals were born that way?
Are you too busy claiming that you have a deal with God about using His Name in vain?
Are you too busy siding with jokes like RCV and Joseph and the modern day Papal Inquisitors, and trashing Bible believing Christians along with them~ like as you did to me recently because I dared to speak up in disagreement with something that you said?
NEVER!

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 9:15PM

So, let us see if just ONE Christian who actually loves Jesus will speak up here.

Who will defend the True Gospel?

Where is the untruth that I have spoken?

Are you ALL cowards?

Nick| 9.15.11 @ 12:59AM

Margie,

- "These modern day Papists still consider Bible believing Christians heretics [...]."
- "They all worship a false leader who plays God and preaches a different Gospel [...]."
- "[The Catholic Church] undertook to torture and kill millions of Bible believing Christians who refused to bow the knee to the Papists."
Just to begin with.

I have shown you, many times, that these calumnies are not true. But, you refuse to offer any proof to refute me. Or, to even look up the historical facts.

I pray that the Holy Spirit opens your heart, as well as your eyes.
God Bless!

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:15AM

Only an utterly deceitful human being would dare refute historical evidence.
You are a blatant liar and join yourself with the Harlot on whose hands are the blood of the saints and Martyrs.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:27AM

READ THE HISTORICAL ACCOUNTS, LIAR!

http://www.homecomers.org/mirror/

ACCOUNT OF THOSE WHO SUFFERED
First Century ............................................................... 67
Second Century...........................................................104
Third Century ..............................................................125
Fourth Century............................................................ 172
Fifth Century............................................................... 197
Sixth Century.............................................................. 209
Seventh Century........................................................... 217
Eighth Century............................................................. 227
Ninth Century............................................................... 240
Tenth Century.............................................................. 255
Eleventh Century.......................................................... 264
Twelfth Century............................................................ 291
Thirteenth Century........................................................ 303
Fourteenth Century....................................................... 327
Fifteenth Century.......................................................... 340

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 11:13AM

Oh, I see where you got the "millions"!
More Catholics were slaughtered by the "Bible-believing" Cromwell himself.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 12:56PM

That isn't enough for you, Papist? The thousands listed in this book are not enough for you to admit that your Religion murdered in the Name of God?
This is only a small number~ this book has not ALL the accounts of the Martyrs blood that is on their hands.

But indeed the spirit lives on in perverted souls as yours!

"Everyone transgressing and not abiding
in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ,
this one has the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not
bear this doctrine, do not receive him into
the house, and do not speak a greeting to
him." 2 Jn. 1:9 & 10.

Nick| 9.15.11 @ 8:17PM

Margie,

Have you ever read this Martyrs Mirror, that you keep posting, over and over again?

The author quotes the early Church Fathers, repeatedly. He says of Saint Ignatius that he "led a godly life."

The author also lists Saint Irenaeus as a martyr of Christ. He quotes Epiphanius as saying about Irenaeus: "[...] Epiphanius gave [Irenaeus] the title of a 'holy and ancient divine,' yea, a 'successor of the apostles.'"

But, Ignatius and Irenaeus taught Catholic doctrine. As you have acknowledged many times. What they taught was not "biblical", according to you.

Does this now make the book Martyrs Mirror a book of demons?

Margie| 9.16.11 @ 11:35PM

Stuff it, scumbag.

Nick| 9.17.11 @ 12:59AM

Margie,

That is not an answer. Nor, is it an argument.

But, I still love you with the love of Christ.
May God Bless you, Victor, and the rest of your family.

Nick| 9.17.11 @ 1:01AM

p.s. Are you going to continue to link to the book Martyrs Mirrors? Even though it praises those who taught the doctrines of demons?

Al Adab| 9.14.11 @ 9:39PM

I am here. It is sad to see among Christians (I know you all are whatever sectarian differences divide) the divisions which so concerned Christ. It was He who prayed that we might be one as He and the Father were one. Better is it not to show our unity to such as John than to reveal the ideas which all too often separate? I will not judge among you, friends all, but discern if you will that our strength is as the parts of the body. All must work together to be healthy and strong.

Perhaps another time we can discuss the implications of our Faith to our political beliefs for certainly there are some Joseph, but for now Ken, Margie, RCV, let us stand together in the Faith where Christ has made us free.

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 10:26PM

It is ONLY possible to be one with Christ by professing His Words. As Christians that's what we're called to do.

His Words, as written in the Bible~ and rejecting all else.

Jesus did pray that we would be one~ that is John 17.

Have you read that lately? It is amazing.. do you know how many times Jesus mentioned about His Words~ and that those who follow Him are faithful to His Words?

"Sanctify them in the Truth; Thy Word is Truth." Jn. 17:17.

"I have given them Thy Word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world." Jn. 17:14.

"I have manifested Thy Name to the men whom Thou gavest Me out of the world; Thine they were, and thou gavest them to Me, and they have kept Thy Word." Jn. 17:6.

"Now they know that everything that Thou hast given Me is from Thee; for I have given them the Words which Thou gavest Me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from Thee; and they have believed that Thou didst send Me." Jn. 17:7 & 8.

Now~ when an individual posts untruths concerning the Bible, or a Religion~ any Religion that is in conflict with His Words and teachings, I'm going to speak up and correct it.

The History of the death of the Martyrs by the persecutions of the Papists went on for 600 years or so. The teachings that led these murderers to do these atrocities have NOT changed.

These modern day Papists still consider Bible believing Christians heretics~ when it is their unbiblical doctrines that are heretical.

And people need to know this.

It is truly sad that when a lone voice (for the most part) dares to speak the truth to the lies of Catholicism, that other so called Christians choose to side with the enemies of the cross of Christ, and try to silence me.

Is it not true that the unsaved need to hear the truth? That their Religion is just as false as Islam, just as false as Buddhism, as Hare Krishna.

They all worship a false leader who plays God and preaches a different Gospel~ and NOT that of Jesus Christ.

None of them can save anyone from their sins, and the teachings are all demonic.

"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, through the pretensions of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and enjoin abstinence from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth.
For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving; for then it is consecrated by the Word of God and prayer." 1 Tim. 4:1-5.

RCV| 9.14.11 @ 10:42PM

Do you believe Jesus Christ is God, Margie? For once, answer the question and stop your evasions.

Nick| 9.14.11 @ 11:26PM

Margie,

"[...] and the teachings are all demonic."

Teachings like, "You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind." Or, "love your neighbor as yourself." These are teachings of the Catholic Church. Are they also demonic?

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 11:51PM

Uh, no~ those are Christ's teachings, sweetheart.

I'm talking about these demonic teachings, NOT OF GOD:

Seven Sacraments of the Roman Catholic Church

I. Baptism. A sacrament which takes away original sin, and makes us Christians, sons of God and the Church. It takes away all voluntary sin committed before receiving it. It remits all punishments merited for sin. It is impossible to be saved without being baptized.

II. Confirmation. A sacrament which infuses in us the Holy Spirit, with all the gifts, and makes us perfect Christians.

III. Eucharist. A sacrament which contains truly, really, and substantially the body, blood, soul, and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ under the species or appearances of bread and wine. It gives us the life of the new Adam.

IV. Penance. A sacrament instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ to forgive the sins committed after baptism. No sin, however great, remains unremitted when this sacrament is properly received.

V. Extreme Unction. A sacrament instituted by our Lord, for the spiritual and corporal relief the of the sick. It purifies the different senses anointed, and takes away the sins of which they were the instruments.

VI. Orders. A sacrament which gives power to exercise ecclesiastical ministry, and the grace to perform it holily. These orders confer upon the priests two powers: one over the natural body of Jesus Christ and the other over his mystical body, which is the Church.

VII. Matrimony. A sacrament instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ to sanctify the union between husband and wife.

Canons of the Council of Trent

"Canon 1 (p. 90): If any one says that the sacraments of the new law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ our Lord, or that there are more or less than seven -- that is, Baptism, Confirmation, Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Orders, and Matrimony, or that any of these is not a sacrament in all truth and propriety -- let him be anathema.

"Baptism. -- Canon 5 (p. 94): If anyone says that Baptism is not arbitrary -- that is, not necessary to obtain salvation -- let him be anathema.

"Eucharist. -- Canon 1 (p. 134): If anyone denies that the Eucharist contains truly, really, and substantially the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ, and consequently all of Christ, but shall say, on the contrary, that He is only present in sign or figure, let him be anathema. Canon 5: If anyone says that the principal fruit of the Holy Sacrament is the pardon or sins, or that no other proceeds from it, let him be anathema.

"Penance. -- Canon 6 (p. 175): If anyone says that the mode of confessing in secret to the priest is foreign to the institution and precept of Jesus Christ, and that it is an invention of men, let him be anathema. Canon 7: If anyone says that it is not necessary, by Divine right, to confess in the Sacrament of Penance, to obtain the pardon of sins, all and each one of the mortal sins which, after due, diligent examination, can be remembered, altho they be hidden sins, and committed against the two last precepts of the decalog, or that it is not necessary to confess the circumstances, which change the species of sin, ....or that it is not necessary to confess venial sins, let him be anathema. Canon 10: If anyone says that priests, who are in mortal sin, have not power to bind and loose, or denies that priests alone are ministers of absolution ....let him be anathema. Canon 14: If anyone says that the satisfactions with which, through the grace of Jesus Christ, penitents redeem their sins, are not the worship of God, but human traditions, which obscure the doctrine of grace, the true worship of God, and even the benefit of the death of Christ, let him be anathema.

"Extreme Unction. -- Canon 2 (p. 179): If anyone says that the sacred unction of the sick does not confer grace, nor pardon sins., nor alleviate the sick, ....let him be anathema. Canon 4: If any one says that the presbyters of the Church, which the blessed James exhorts to be taken to anoint the sick, are not the priests ordained by the Bishop, but the elders of any community, and that therefore the priest is not the only proper minister of extreme unction, let him be anathema.

"Orders. -- Canon 1 (p. 267) : If anyone says that there is not in the New Testament a visible and external priesthood, or that there is no power to consecrate, and offer the true body and blood of the Lord, nor to pardon or retain sin, but only the office and mere ministry of preaching the Gospel, ....let him be anathama. Canon 6: If anyone says that there is not hierarchy in the Catholic Church established by Divine institution, composed of Bishops, Presbyters, and ministers, let him be anathema.

"Matrimony. -- Canon 1 (p. 297): If anyone says that matrimony is not truly and properly one of the seven sacraments of the evangelical law, instituted by Christ our Lord, but invented by men in the Church, and that it does not confer grace, let him be anathema."

Extracts from Ripaldes' Catechism

"Who is our Lady the Virgin Mary? She is a lady full of virtue and grace, who is the mother of God, and is in heaven. Our Lady the Virgin Mary is the only descendant of the sinner Adam, who was conceived without a spot of sin (p. 126).

"The Church has always condemned as heretics those who at any time have declared against the veneration and worship of the sacred images . . . the Council of Trent says that we ought to have and preserve, principally in the temples, the images of Jesus Christ, the Virgin Mother of God, and the other saints, and give them the honor and veneration due them (p. 128). Are we to pray also to the angels and saints? Yes, Father, as to our mediators (p. 131).

"Priestly Dignity. -- The dignity of the priests is such that, according to the expression of St. Augustine, the Son of God incarnates in his hands as in the bosom of the Virgin. The priest making Jesus Christ come into being upon the altar, by virtue of the words of consecration, becomes as his father, and as the husband of his most holy mother. The Son of God has put in the priest's power the keys of heaven, and in his hands has deposited the treasures of the faith, and into his care has delivered the flock, which he bought with his life. All the spiritual and eternal interests of humanity, all the value of the blood of Jesus Christ, all the work of sanctification and salvation of men, is in the priest's care. Jesus Christ has put himself, so to speak, at the disposition of the priests. Be stupefied with astonishment, O Heavens, be terrified, O earth, be confounded, O hell, at contemplating the immense dignity which God has given to the priest! Ah, if angels were capable of envy, they would envy none but the priests! Oh, the dignity of priests! Oh, my beloved priests, of how much veneration you are worthy! Angels reverence you, dominions venerate you, and princes in humiliation attend your sublime ministry! Oh, Christians, with what veneration, with what respect ought we to acknowledge these agents of God, these visible gods, who represent us to the invisible God, these gods on earth who take the place of God of Heaven! But the priests are not only worthy of our veneration on account of their sacred character and elevated dignity, but also for the multitude and greatness of the blessings which they dispense to us (p. 390)."

Extracts from Liguoris' "The Glories of Mary"

This is a very popular Roman Catholic book, many editions having been published, fully approved by the Church, and especially recommended by the cardinals Wiseman and Manning. Quotations are from the sixth edition, Spanish, Paris, 1883:

"She (Mary) is . . . the only hope of sinners (p. 69). In Judea, in olden times, there were cities of refuge, in which the criminals who there sought refuge were exempted from the punishment they merited. These cities are not now so numerous: there is only one, and this is Mary (p. 407).

"No one can be so suitable as Mary to detain with her hand the sword of Divine justice, preventing it from striking sinners. Before Mary came to the world, God lamented that there was no one to detain Him in the punishment of sinners; but the Virgin having been born, she appeases Him (p. 72).

"We will be heard and saved sooner by going to Mary, and invoking her holy name, than that of Jesus our Savior. We will find salvation sooner going to the mother than going to the Son (p. 82).

"Many things asked of God and not received are asked and received from Mary (p. 82). All obey the precepts of Mary, even God (p. 115).

"The salvation of all consists in being favored and protected by Mary. He whom the most holy Virgin protects is saved; he whom she does not protect is lost (p. 107).

"Whatever Mary says, the Son does (p. 118). Mary is called the door of heaven, because no one can enter that happy mansion who does not enter by Mary, who is the door (p. 99), Jesus Christ said: ....No one comes to me, unless my Mother first draws him by her prayers (p. 105). Having with God, O Mary, the authority of a mother, secure the pardon of the most obstinate sinners (p. 119).

"It is impossible for a devotee of Mary, who faithfully waits upon her, and commends himself to her, to be condemned (p. 147).

"He who does not serve the Virgin will die in sin; he who does not go to thee, Lady, will not get to heaven (p. 148).

"Mary says: He that comes to me, and hears what I tell him, will not be lost (p. 149)."

Nick| 9.15.11 @ 12:19AM

Margie,

So, which is it?

Are "all" of the Catholic Church's teachings "demonic", as you first claimed? Or, are they just those which you have copied and pasted, above?

Both statements cannot be true.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:11AM

"The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is sound, your whole body will be full of light; but if your eye is not sound, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!

"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon." Mt. 6:22-24.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:40AM

Readers will notice that not a single defender of this false Religion will deal with ONE SINGLE false teaching,
NOT ONE.

Joseph| 9.15.11 @ 7:04PM

The reason is Nobody wants to talk to you.

Nick| 9.15.11 @ 7:57PM

Margie,

This is simply not true.

I have explained many of those doctrines of the Catholic Church to you, on many occasions. Using the Scriptures to explain them, I might add.

I can provide links, if you would like?
God Bless!

Margie| 9.14.11 @ 11:55PM

The liars and anti-Christs are out in full force, with Ken having once again now leading the charge.

Do you rejoice, Ken, that you always join with the despicable modern day Papal Inquisitors?

May God have mercy on all of you!

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 1:01AM

Would that God be Jesus, Margie, or do you share the Islamic conception of Jesus - immaculately conceived by God in the Virgin Mary, but not God himself?

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:08AM

The God of the Bible, Leftist punk.

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 1:20PM

That would be Christ, the World made flesh who dwelt among us. Father, Son and Holy Spirit, one God now and forever.

Joseph| 9.15.11 @ 7:23AM

I saw that Margie is referred to as the Mullah. Now it makes sense since she is closer to Islam than Christianity. Doesn't matter what you believe. Islam is fine if you are not a jihadist. Just be honest. You can't be a Christian if you don't believe Jesus is God, You don't have to be a Christian. You can practice any religion you like.
But stop accusing everybody else of practicing a false religion.
Your historical and theological distortions are too numerous to mention. And there is no point in doing so since any disagreement is met with remarks such as "punk," "liar," "Satan," and so on.

Nick who is classy person tries to engage you but all you do is call him a liar. RCV who is a classy person tries to engage you but you call him a punk.

You are much like Clint who insults every person who disagrees with him.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 12:57PM

""Everyone transgressing and not abiding
in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ,
this one has the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not
bear this doctrine, do not receive him into
the house, and do not speak a greeting to
him." 2 Jn. 1:9 & 10.

Nick| 9.15.11 @ 7:54PM

Thanks for the kind words, Joseph.
God Bless!

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 10:50PM

Ditto, Joseph.

POST american| 9.14.11 @ 11:56PM

----------------------FINAL WORD----------------------

----------Did it?

Surely NOT a fraction as much as 6 decades
of deliberate infiltration and subversion of
our entire Chrisian, indeed, our entire culture,
by the ultra-rich, Globalist EUGENICS driven 'social engineers' of the Rock--F---L---O, Ford and Carn--EGG--he TAX FREE 'benny violent' foundations.

AGAIN, never talked about, never mentioned.

DO make some time for ALAN WATT's breakdown
of the set up ------asap.

UNLIKE Hollywood's last three decades
---his work really will -----BLOW YOUR MIND.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:42AM

Religion and Religiosity can't save you.
Only Jesus Christ can.

"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time." 1 Tim. 2:5 & 6.

RCV| 9.15.11 @ 1:24PM

"He was in the world, and the world came into being through Him; yet the world did not know Him" John 10.

Some still do not.

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 1:51PM

"""Everyone transgressing and not abiding
in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.
The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ,
this one has the Father and the Son.
If anyone comes to you and does not
bear this doctrine, do not receive him into
the house, and do not speak a greeting to
him." 2 Jn. 1:9 & 10.

POST American| 9.15.11 @ 5:19AM

-----------------BOTTOMLESS LINE------------------

And BTW, speaking of the decades upon
decades of Freemasonic infiltrations, subversions
and DE FACTO usurpations of GENUINE,
scriptural Christianity here and across the
world -----is everyone catching 33rd degree
Freemason, and tent show CON extraordinaire,
Pat Robertson's fold on the divorce issue
yesterday?

--VAST though it is, FORGET the
'Church and State' issue and START
paying unflinching attention to the
'Church and Coven' issue.

It's a soul killer.

-------------------------TRULY---------------------------

Appleby| 9.15.11 @ 2:55PM

Sorry to see that we have degenerated here from a sober reflection on religion and 9/11/01 to a Douglas Fairbanks fencing movie on a pirate ship.

Is anybody still here who remembers what we were talking about before the ship hit the sand?

Margie| 9.15.11 @ 3:03PM

You are a member of Catholicism, so of course you stand in a self-righteous pompous manner instead of taking a stand on the truth.

Isn't it fun to be a stone thrower, like your pal, Ken?
Coward.

Margie| 9.16.11 @ 11:37PM

The Religious liars are clearly seen here~
RCV, Nick, Ken, Ryan, Joseph.

ALL Papists, and all liars who reject the Word of God and replace it with the false teachings of Catholicism. They DESPISE Bible believing Christians and want to shut them up.

You won't succeed.
God's Truth endures forever.
Praise His Holy Name.

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