The American Spectator

Groad| 8.16.11 @ 6:49AM

These people are evil and satanic at best. Militant atheists have no grounding or core values except self. They are agents of tyranny.

log in or register to reply

chuck| 8.16.11 @ 7:38AM

They are small, angry people. Pray for them, at the very least it will piss them off.

log in or register to reply

mames| 8.16.11 @ 10:33AM

Nothing screams insecurity about your own faith like a demand to eliminate another's.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 5:10PM

These vermin, these scum---they are the majority of people in Britain, France, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand,Germany, Switzerland, Spain...interestingly, only New Zealand has a replacement birthrate, and only because they have Maori, who are more likely to attend church, breeding to a larger amount.

As for the rest, all of our allies are dead men walking except Israel. ALL OF THEM. Canada, too. And all are aggressively secular. To those who believe that "non-interventionalism " will save us, my response is---study you demography. Which monotheistic religion is the fastest growing, and what are its tenets? How peaceful have they been?

RoP website: Ramadan Bombathon 2011 Scorecard

Day 14
In the name of
The Religion
of Peace 75
In the name of
All other
Religions 0
By
"Anti-Muslim"
Right-Wingers
Terror Attacks 0

0
0
Dead Bodies 272
0
0
Not all attacks are immediately listed on TROP

Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace
"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29

2011.08.15 (Kut, Iraq) - Over three dozen shoppers at a market are snuffed out by al-Qaeda bombers.
2011.08.15 (al-Jouf, Yemen) - An al-Qaeda suicide attack leaves fourteen Shiite tribesmen dead.
2011.08.15 (Najaf, Iraq) - Seven Shias are left dead after a brutal bombing by Sunni militants.
2011.08.15 (Tikrit, Iraq) - Suicide bombers send six Iraqis to Allah.
2011.08.14 (Tizi Ouzou, Algeria) - An al-Qaeda suicide bomber injures at least thirty-three people, including foreigners.
2011.08.13 (Boatshyurt, Dagestan) - Four victims of Muslim 'insurgents' are found bound and shot to death.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:02PM

Sorry. Study "your" geography.

log in or register to reply

DRed| 8.16.11 @ 7:39PM

Wait, the majority of people in Europe and Australia are vermin and scum? Because of their birth rates?

log in or register to reply

Kingofthenet| 8.16.11 @ 8:12PM

I think the Norwegian Templar Knight has a new PenPal...

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:32PM

Let's try this again, KIng:

http://unstats.un.org/unsd/dem.....b/dyb2.htm

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 1:30AM

They are the dead, and they don't realize who their enemies are. Europe will become Eurabia within 15 years. I don't believe in killing them like that idiot in Norway; I just don't hold out hope for them to stay allies. Australia's birthrate is 1.76 kids per woman. They're going to age quickly; their mean age is already 37 years. They are already blaming Bali on their international stand; they have a Leftist PM.

Europe is already Dimmiland, heading into Dar-Es-Islam. 85% of the rapes in Sweden and 100% of the solved rapes in Norway were committed by members of The religion of Peace, but the Norwegians are viciously antisemitic (Jews) and the Swedes have a city (Malmo) that it is impossible to be Jewish in, already. Holland is advising Jews to leave the country because of their Islamic population.

In the camp where theNorwegians were killed, they didn't respond at first to the gunman because they thought he was playing the part of a Jewish oppesor of Palestinians. They were holding solidarity rallies with Hamas in the camp. Pictures exist on this.

Jews are getting pounded in France and England by Muslims while cops stand by. In Denmark, Jews are advised to take their kids out of school because the authorities cannot keep them safe.

Trust me, I have photos or references for ALL of this.

Yes, scum. Too weak to fight for their liberties, doomed to submit, hating the Jews while the Sharia advocates take over their countries, all of them aging, having insufficient kids to go on. 1000 German men have 480 kids. 1000 Somali men have 4000 kids. References from Mark Steyn's After America for much of this.

I simply note that they are the dead. they are the dead because they no longer are worthy defenders of their civilizations values; and they cast their vote against the West by not having children, or not adopting children from 3rd world countries and raising them in the West, as Westerners. Scoff all you want, but answer me this: had you heard of CAIR and the hadiths and Burkhas and hijabs and honor killings on September 10, 1001?

What do you expect you'll be hearing and seeing on September 11, 2021 and september 11, 2031. My bet is the Ground Zero Mosque will be in operation by 2021, and nothing appropriate will be commorating the Victims of Islam on that date but the continued unbuilt wreckage.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 1:33AM

Sorry for the typos---I was pissed. Oh, that's 1000 German men with 480 sons. They're breeding to half replacement.

I lived in New Zealand for 14 months. Worthless peons; their men are boys.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 1:44AM

This is Fatah's concept on the Norwegian Camp:

"BETHLEHEM (Ma’an) — Fatah Youth released a statement on Saturday condemning attacks in Norway which have reportedly killed over 90 people.

“It is with consternation that we have received the dramatic news of an awful terrorist attack against a summer camp ran by our comrades of Norwegian Labor Youth ‘AUF,’” the statement said.

The Fatah Youth group had taken part in the summer camp in the past on the Island of Utoya, near Oslo, where over 90 people were reportedly killed in a shooting spree on the Island and a bomb attack in Oslo on Friday, news reports said.

“Fatah Youth declares its consternation about the terror attack. There are no words to describe an attack against people that have been our comrades in our struggle for freedom and independence. Very few people have stood by our side as much as the Norwegian people, and particularly our AUF comrades.”

“We know those who have been cowardly assassinated. Those are people that have stood for the human and national rights of the Palestinian people both in Europe and while visiting Palestine.

“Fatah Youth has participated for almost 15 years in the same summer camp and our youth has benefited by learning and sharing experiences on democracy and advocacy for peace and justice.

“We hope that those responsible for this criminal terror attack will be brought to justice. Such sick minds should not have a place in any society."

[Emphasis added.]

No, I don't believe they should have been shot and killed. But are they sharia supporting scum? Did they oppose Western values and support those who would behead 3 month olds? Yup.

Hence, scum.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:43PM

King: Here's the UN World Population Aging Report, 2009.

http://www.un.org/esa/populati.....report.pdf

log in or register to reply

DRed| 8.17.11 @ 11:44AM

I hadn't heard of CAIR before September 11th, but yes, I'd heard of hadiths and burhkas and hijabs and honor killings.

Anyhow, Occam, there are some basic problems with your arguments. First, you treat muslims as some sort of monolithic entity. Two, you take all your statistics from vehemently anti-muslim sources. That doesn't make them wrong, of course, but it does make one take them with a grain of salt. That Religion of Peace webiste, for example, is total garbage. It seems to treat every crime committed by someone who may be a muslim as a crime committed because the person was a muslim. If a group of gangsters in Afghanistan murder some people over a heroin dispute, that doesn't have a lot to do with religion, but you wouldn't know it from that site.

And your birthrate arguments are all completely oversimplified. Birthrates change and vary significantly from country to country. They are also affected by a whole host of factors, not just how willing a populace is to defend western culture. The scum over in England, for example, are currently experiencing their highest birthrates in 20 years. Does that mean the scum are less scummy, or is everyone equally scum until they have a higher than replacement level birthrate? Are the Jews in Malmo scum for not defending Jewish culture by having more children and staying to fight for their rights? Why are they even worthy of your concern?

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:09PM

The birthrate in England is still under 2.1 The Jews in Malmo are a tiny number to begin with---they are canaries in a coal mine. Sweden is no longer defending their minorities. That is the importance of the Jews of malmo. Like the Jews in Denmark being pulled out of public schools due to concerns of violence, and the schools in England no longer teaching the Holocaust.

England has a birthrate of 1.91. The most common name is Mohammed, in various spellings. Subtract that unassimilatable mass, and what do you have---and by the way---it is STILL below replacement by 10%.

When you find a TRULY "moderate" Muslim political force that is in favor of respectful dialogue with other religions, is in favor of the Israeli state's survival, and condemns Islamic terrorism and fights strongly against it---I'm not talking about individual Muslims, but a strong, well organized counter to CAIR---let me know. I haven't heard of them. Ever.

Incidentally, I do have concerns about all the children murdered in Islamic countries, and the pregnant women wired for explosives, and the beheadings, etc. The RoP may be "garbage"---but there are an amazing number of suicide bombs.

There is NO Western European Country breeding to replacement, let alone above. They want their super socialist state. Within 20 years, one can expect that the MAJORITY of young men in those countries will be Muslim, and not of a particularly friendly type.

Military strength has NOTHING to do with 60 year olds. It all comes down to the young men.

Why do I care about the Jews in
Malmo? They can't breed to fight this---there are very few Jews in Sweden and Norway, which both ban Kosher meats. Both countries are known for their antisemitism---Norway much worse than Sweden, but both stink. The Jews in Malmo are a tiny number to begin with---they are canaries in a coal mine. Sweden is no longer defending their minorities. That is the importance of the Jews of Malmo. Like the Jews in Denmark being pulled out of public schools due to concerns of violence, and the schools in England no longer teaching the Holocaust.

What is more important is that Sweden is no longer defending Sweden, as Norway does not defend Norway, as the UK takes down the Union Jack where it might "offend."

Or the fact that every rape solved in Norway in 2010 was committed by a Muslim, and 85% of the Rapes in Sweden were.

You are correct in stating that not all Muslims are a homogeneous mass---but the Ones that are politically active are about 80/20 in favor of violence, or passive in that situation. 80% of Mosques in the US have violent literature. Dearborn is an antisemitic nightmare. Hell, I lived in Kentucky after 9/11 (about 4 years). It's an antisemitic nightmare, too, unlike Alabama (7 years before 9/11).

You seem like a nice fellow. But grownups don't look good carrying "Hello Kitty" lunchboxes, DRed.

Best of luck. I pay attention, you see, because I took a job in Minnesota for my specialty after I came back from NZ. The other one, the one I turned down, involved working on a military base. In Texas. In Killeen. At Darnell Medical Center. At Fort Hood. In the Department of Psychiatry.

That tends to focus the mind, DRed. I don't do "Hello Kitty." I'm just glad I'm not a corpse due to "Pre Traumatic Stress Allahu Akhbar Syndrome.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:10PM

Forgot to close apostrophes. Sorry.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:55PM

And DRed, this is the conclusion of the UN report on World Aging. Please note how rapidly this is going to occur--a little over one generation.

V. Conclusion
Global population ageing is a by-product of the demographic transition in which both mortality and
fertility decline from higher to lower levels. Currently, the total fertility rate is below the replacement
level in practically all industrialized countries. In the less developed regions, the fertility decline started
later and has proceeded faster than in the more developed regions. Yet, in all regions people are
increasingly likely to survive to older ages.
The older population is growing at a considerably faster rate than that of the world’s total population.
In absolute terms, the number of older persons has more than tripled since 1950 and will almost triple
again by 2050. In relative terms, the percentage of older persons is projected to double worldwide by the
middle of this century. However, notable differences exist between regions in the numbers and
proportions at higher ages. Although the highest proportions of older persons are found in the more
developed regions, this age group is growing considerably more rapidly in the less developed regions. As
a consequence, the older population will be increasingly concentrated in the less developed regions.
The young-old balance is shifting throughout the world. In the more developed regions, the
proportion of older persons already exceeds that of children, and by 2050 it is expected to be more than
double that of children. In the less developed regions, age-distribution changes have been slow but will
accelerate over the coming decades. Currently, the median age in the more developed regions is more
than 13 years higher than in the less developed regions and is 20 years higher than in the least developed
countries.
An increase in the old-age dependency ratio indicates a situation in which an increasing number of
potential beneficiaries of health and pensions (mainly those aged 65 or over) are supported by a relatively
smaller number of potential contributors (those in the economically active ages of 15 to 64). This trend
tends to impose heavier demands on the working-age population, in the form of higher taxes and other
contributions, in order to maintain a stable flow of benefits to the older groups. Even the sharp decline in
youth dependency that has accompanied the increase in old-age dependency may not be enough to offset
the increased costs, since the relative expense of supporting the old is, in general, higher than that of
supporting the young.
As the numbers and relative proportions of the older population increase, their demographic
characteristics are also changing. For instance, the older population is itself undergoing a process of
demographic ageing. At the global level, the most rapidly growing age group is the aged 80 and over.
Although the oldest-old still constitute a small proportion of the total population, their numbers are
becoming increasingly important, especially in the less developed regions.
In most countries, older women greatly outnumber older men. In many cases, the difference is so
large that the concerns of the older population should in fact be viewed primarily as the concerns of older
women. This is especially true in the case of the oldest-old populations, as the female share increases
markedly with age.
Older men are much more likely to be married than are older women due to a combination of factors
that include the higher female life expectancy, the tendency for men to marry slightly younger women,
and the higher remarriage rates among older widowed men than women. As a consequence, older men are
in general, more likely than older women to receive assistance from a spouse, especially when health
fails.
50 World Population Ageing 2009
Because older women are less likely than older men to be married, mainly because of widowhood, a
significantly higher proportion of older women than older men live alone, particularly in the more
developed regions. Older women living alone constitute a group of special social and policy concern as
they are at greater risk of social isolation and economic deprivation. It is worth noting, however, that
among the unmarried, older men are more likely than older women to live alone in most countries.
Labour force participation of the older population has remained stable worldwide over the last
decades and is considerably higher in the less developed than in the more developed regions. Nearly
everywhere, however, the trend has been towards lower levels of economic activity among older men and
higher levels among older women, thus increasing the female share of the older work force. Although
lower levels of labour force participation at older ages are usually a sign of higher levels of social security
coverage, they may also result from other factors, such as a shortage of employment opportunities and
obsolescence of skills and knowledge.
In most countries, the number of older persons and children in relation to the working-age population
is higher in rural than in urban areas. Thus, rural areas typically face the double demographic burden of
having a higher child dependency ratio and a higher old-age dependency ratio than urban areas. Added to
this demographic disadvantage is the limited access to basic social and health services in rural areas and
higher poverty rates than in urban areas
Illiteracy remains high in the less developed regions among older people, especially women. In
those regions, an estimated one third of men aged 65 or over and nearly 60 per cent of women in this age
group cannot read or write. This situation is of special concern as higher levels of education are generally
associated with better health and economic status within the older population.
As the twentieth century drew to a close, population ageing and its social and economic
consequences were drawing increased attention from policy-makers worldwide. Many countries,
especially in the more developed regions, had already achieved population structures older than any
ever seen in human history. In most cases, the ageing societies also experienced rapid economic
growth during the second half of the twentieth century. While major shortcomings and unmet needs
remained, most developed countries expanded and diversified their systems of social security and
health care and, on the whole, the standard of living of the old as well as the young improved as
populations aged. However, strains were building in those support systems, as the older population
continued to grow more rapidly than that of younger adults and as earlier withdrawal from the labour
force added to the demands on public pension systems. In the first decade of the twenty-first century,
the financial and economic crisis that began in 2007 and unfolded in 2008 and 2009 has put
additional pressure on pension systems and on the prospective pension benefits of many workers
nearing retirement age.
The twenty-first century will witness even more rapid population ageing than did the twentieth
century. Worldwide, the percentage of the population aged 60 years or over increased by 3 points—
from 8 to 11 per cent—between 1950 and 2009. Until the middle of the twenty-first century, that
percentage is projected to increase by 11 percentage points, to 22 per cent. By that time, the
population of the less developed regions will have about the same percentage of persons aged 60
years or over as the current percentage in the more developed regions. The developing countries will
reach that stage over a shorter period than that required by the more developed regions. In many
cases, rapid population ageing will be taking place in countries where the level of economic
development is still low. The challenge for the future is “to ensure that persons everywhere are able
to age with security and dignity and to continue to participate in their societies as citizens with full
rights” (United Nations, 2002, para. 10).

Note that China will have 400 million plus people over 60 by 2040-50. With a declining population, how will that affect them?

I make all of my investment decisions on the premise that the future will be hungier, more energy starved, and more violent.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:57PM

So, to summarize---the thnic Europeans grow older, leaving them with old women. The majority of the youth are Muslim, who have nothing in common with the 60 + year old biddies, but whose government, who the majority of the youngsters don't recognize, tries to make them pay taxes for the upkeep of anyway.

Great recipe for social cohesion.

log in or register to reply

Alan Brooks| 8.16.11 @ 8:03PM

But most of you worship your possessions; you know what America is like: it is extremely materialistic.

God is a badge you wear.

log in or register to reply

Darin| 8.16.11 @ 6:55AM

The cross is powerful, and those who oppose that for which it stands cannot tolerate it's presence. But they never answer that banning the cross in any place (include public forums) would be "prohibiting the free exercise of religion." That's in the First Amendment, unlike "separation of church and state" which is not.

log in or register to reply

da monk| 8.17.11 @ 9:23AM

Darin: Constitutional law says it's ok to display religous symbols on PRIVATE PROPERTY but not on PUBLIC PROPERTY. So it depends if the cross will be displayed on public or private property

log in or register to reply

cowgirl| 8.17.11 @ 3:09PM

I would like to know which Constitutional Law you are referring to.... Shepardize and give us the case law....

log in or register to reply

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.16.11 @ 7:21AM

Sirs,
Of course the atheists hate the cross... they are vampires and it burns them.

log in or register to reply

downtown dave | 8.16.11 @ 7:33AM

Although there is "No one righteous, no not one," the Scriptures tell us that in Christ we seek to love one another. Love does no harm to it's neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Atheists tell us they can be good without God, but where is the good in this? http://atheistlegitimacy.blogspot.com/

log in or register to reply

Alan Brooks| 8.16.11 @ 8:04PM

Better to be a an honest Christian than a dishonest atheist.

log in or register to reply

Alan Brooks| 8.16.11 @ 8:06PM

BUT vice versa is also true.
Better to be an honest atheist than a dishonest Christian-- and most of you are. You worship your possessions, your power.

log in or register to reply

chemman| 8.16.11 @ 9:20PM

And claiming you are God is a sign of insanity. The only person that you can possibly know what their internal beliefs really are is yourself. So it's time to end your childish insults.

log in or register to reply

martin j smith| 8.16.11 @ 7:33AM

How about freedom to practice religion. Atheists forget it goes both ways and this should be pointed out.

log in or register to reply

Santino| 8.16.11 @ 10:27AM

If a symbol from a non-Christian religion was found at the WTC site, I doubt it would be supported for its inclusion in a public, non-religious museum as this beam cross is.

log in or register to reply

W| 8.16.11 @ 10:51AM

Santino, what would be a symbol from a non christian religion? Given that radical muslims flew the planes onto the buildings, the only non christian symbols would be whatever those terrorrists carried. Maybe you are thinking of box cutters or the Koran.

log in or register to reply

TrueBlue| 8.16.11 @ 11:32AM

And the Star of David, though I can't remember if it's an accepted Christian symbol or not. Honestly, if they wanted to put a religious symbol from the Jewish and Islamic religions in the memorial to remind people that there were those of all faiths who died in the tragedy I'd be fine with it. But telling people they have to remove a cross that was naturally (for lack of a better word) made when the buildings collapsed is just plain hateful.

The only thing that keeps American Athiests from being more fanatical than radical Muslims is that they have no God, or other higher power, to die for, and they're too selfish to be willing to die for each other. They do everything they can to push their lack of religion on everyone else.

log in or register to reply

kurgan| 8.16.11 @ 6:48PM

You said the word. These people are overcome by their hate. There are lots of things that I encounter in a day's time that I don't like. I turn off the TV and the Radio. I put the paper in the trash and cancel my subscription. When the internet does something that I don't like I mouse to another website. Regarding these athiest folks none of that is good enough, looking away isn't good enough, their hate won't let them rest. These athiest folks have to attempt to control me and what I do and will not stop until that level of control is achieved.

Much the same can be said in regards to all activists, They are confronted with something that they don't like and their hatred and sense of superiority will not let them rest until control is established.

Imagine what a life of torment that a hate driven life must be.

log in or register to reply

Genma Saotome| 8.17.11 @ 4:24PM

What a steaming heap of bovine digested hay.

The issue here is whether one religion can use state assets for its own display of religious symbols. If this cross is funded privately and placed on private property, fine, let it stand.

OTOH if it has government funding or is placed on government property, tear it down.

It's as simple as that.

log in or register to reply

BD57| 8.16.11 @ 7:43PM

Interesting hypothetical - which is all it is, given no "non Christian symbol" was found at the WTC site.

But the correct response is "So what?"

log in or register to reply

Timothy L. Pennell| 8.16.11 @ 7:36AM

This is simple. Atheists belong to the LEFT. They have no need for a Supreme Being. They have THE STATE. They believe in LENIN and STALIN and MAO. They believe in the Greatest MASS MURDERERS of the 20th Century.
Obama is the SON of an ATHEIST/COMMUNIST.
Any questions?

log in or register to reply

Doorgunner| 8.16.11 @ 11:05AM

Yes, Mr. Pennell, I have a question.

I voted for Reagan- twice. And I enlisted in the USMC right at the time he first took the oath on the steps. I voted for GHW Bush- twice. I voted for Dole, and I voted for GWB twice. A couple months after 9/11 I enlisted into the National Guard after a fifteen year break. I am an Iraq veteran.

Based upon my actions, I believe my conservative bona fides are in order.

I am also an atheist who is not only not concerned with public expressions and displays of faith, but also -like the devout John Ashcroft- believes that religion can be a path to better citizenship.

My question is this: Where do I fit into your assessment of atheists, you horse's patoot?

log in or register to reply

Timothy L. Pennell| 8.16.11 @ 11:12AM

Easy. You're not the problem. If YOU wanna be an Atheist? That's your problem.
Ya Horse's Ass.

log in or register to reply

da monk| 8.17.11 @ 9:31AM

Timothy Pennell: You sure imbue the love of Jesus. Can you imagine the Son of God making the statement you made at the end of your comment? You spew hate!

log in or register to reply

Fredrick Ward| 8.16.11 @ 12:05PM

Doorgunner, I believe that most of us have issue with those Atheists who feel that their beliefs, or concerns, trump all other beliefs, or concerns. I have friends who are Atheists, Christian, etc. However, the ones who scream the loudest are the Atheist friends. They proselytize any chance they get.

log in or register to reply

da monk| 8.17.11 @ 9:31AM

But Christian missionaries don't?

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:08PM

You would not be an atheist as the term is commonly used, Doorgunner. That would refer to a hard atheist, like these guys, who are actively opposed to displays of faith that it becomes ridiculous.

Yours would probably be considered soft atheism or agnosticism. Thank you for your service.

But what we are talking about are the equivalent of atheist jihadists, not you. Does that make sense? And was I polite? I meant to be. I like your posts.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:13PM

Sorry. "are so actively opposed..." Oops.

The thanks for your service stands, Doorgunner. Unless I'm dealing with Clint, I try to disagree without being disagreeable.

Incidentally, you might want to note my comments about atheism being, for societies that hold to it, an antisurvival trait. But I can certainly understand how seeing the elephant can shake one's faith. I hope all is well with you.

log in or register to reply

Doorgunner| 8.16.11 @ 8:39PM

I'm good and we're good, Ock.

I've been home for 2 mos. now from Basra, Iraq. Still ridin' terminal leave due to enhanced leave (PDMRA) from previous deployment.

Read your initial post. Really, I think the various factions -katab hezbollah, the sadrists, remnants of AQ et al, are just trying to assert dominance in their respective locales for when we pull out. Katab hezbollah is the big player. Iranian sponsored and controlled, and in loosely in concert with the Laebanese/Palestinian variant. It was rose charming bastards that lit us up with rockets about every ten nights or so at Basra.

At any rate, they're not fighting not so much in the name of Allah as they are for a piece of that southern oilfield at Basra for when the Iranians come across the border. Go figure, huh.

Thanks for post, man.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:13PM

Yes, sir, Doorgunner. But what are they fighting for in the rapes in Sweden or Norway?

I think they are fighting for oil and Allah. However, Allah is a bit of a turd of a diety who favors child rape and killings. G-d Bless and good luck, sir. Thanks for defending my flabby tail.

log in or register to reply

Kevin Dunn| 8.16.11 @ 7:57AM

Athiests believe no God exists. How can they be offended by a sign of something they do not believe exists? Had they any "charity" instead of being consumed, Nazgul-like, with hatred, they would be glad of the comfort the cross may offer believers even if they do not share that belief.

log in or register to reply

Anthony| 8.16.11 @ 10:56AM

Well you've nailed it. This carnard coming from the militant athiests has nothing to do with "being offended", that's simply the ploy; it has all to do with the nihilism that most of them on the left practice.
Religion is an anathema to their worship of the self,except Islam, that religion shares many of their values.

log in or register to reply

The Bishop| 8.16.11 @ 8:04AM

God damn these atheists. No, literally.

log in or register to reply

henry| 8.16.11 @ 8:20AM

To Hell with them

log in or register to reply

Tomas| 8.16.11 @ 8:17AM

A couple points:

1. Atheism is a religion. It is a faith in the non-existence of a divine being. As such, are the courts establishing a state religion of atheism in rulings which find against non-atheist faiths?

2. Suits like this should be tossed on the grounds that they have no merit. Don't carry them to trial, just dismiss them. This shuts down the appeals process - you can't appeal a dismissal. Clear the docket for important stuff.

-

log in or register to reply

Notary Sojac| 8.16.11 @ 10:02AM

"Atheism is a religion. It is a faith in the non-existence of a divine being."

I wouldn't put it that way at all, Tomas. For me, contemplating a universe where supernatural beings exist is like contemplating a universe where addition is not commutative. It's just a concept that my mind is not structured to recognize.

My atheism is a "religion" in the same way that not collecting stamps is a "hobby".

log in or register to reply

Doctor Right| 8.16.11 @ 10:52AM

Religion or not, atheism IS a faith.

And it's irrational, as well.

log in or register to reply

Fredrick Ward| 8.16.11 @ 12:12PM

Religion
a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe.

That wraps up argument right there, and since that definition is from the dictionary itself it is quite irrefutable. Atheists believe that science is the end all and be all, that the cause is from the Big Bang, and there is no higher purpose to existence. Quite simply Atheism is a religion.

log in or register to reply

Drunken Sailor| 8.16.11 @ 12:46PM

Question Notary Sojac

Your an Athiest. Fine, that is your freedom of choice. My question is are you offended by religous symbols simply because you do not believe in them? The problem arises when Atheist try to push their non- belief (for lack of a better phrase) on others. Like it or not this is a nation based on christian principles, as such you should expect to see christian symbols. When in a muslim or jewish country I expect to see their symbols, even if I do not agree to what they stand for.

This lawsuit is simple a symptom of the progressive liberal disease that believes a loud minority should be able to push their views or lack thereof on others.

For all their talk of being open-minded and of tolerance they exhibt a startling lack of either.

My religon is my business and between me and my savior. Your religion or lack of one is your business. The thing is I am not jewish but I do not get upset when one wishes me a happy Chanukkah because it is the spirit of goodwill they are wishing me. Just as I am wishing anyone when I wish them a Merry Christmas. Personally, I could care less if people worship the Flying Spaghetti Monster and teach my children to respect others beliefs even if they do not share them. Some Atheist would do well to do the same.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:15PM

Again, some atheists like doorgunner would not do this. The resentment is the cramming of religious beliefs down your neighbor's throat, especially if it causes your neighbor pain.

Gentlemen like Doorgunner would not do this. It is not the belief here, but the lack of human decency.

log in or register to reply

Drunken Sailor| 8.16.11 @ 7:44PM

Never thought it of doorgunner or Notary. Just trying to state my case.

log in or register to reply

da monk| 8.17.11 @ 9:35AM

Drunken Sailor: This IS NOT A CHRISTIAN COUNTRY! Where do you see in our Constitution any citation that his is a Christian country. Thei is a country of many religions and we should
respect all of them.

log in or register to reply

Drunken Sailor| 8.17.11 @ 10:10AM

Re-read the post. I never said it was a Christian Country (why the caps?). I said it is a country based on Christian principles. If you can't see that I can't help you and if you don't think it is true then please explain to me why in most courts you swear on a bible and our money has "In God we Trust" on it?

log in or register to reply

Dave Williams| 8.16.11 @ 12:42PM

Saying atheism is a religion is like saying "Off" is a TV channel.
Oh, that all-loving Christian god really looked after his own on that horrible Tuesday morning, didn't he...all 2,900+ of them.
Pathetic, you christers, just pathetic.

log in or register to reply

Drunken Sailor| 8.16.11 @ 12:48PM

Must hurt to believe that once your days on earth are over you will be erased like you never existed.

log in or register to reply

YeloStalyn| 8.16.11 @ 3:16PM

It's not a TV channel... it's a decision about what should be on your TV. In that regard... it's in the same camp as any other thing that may be on one of the various channels.
Atheism IS a religion because it is a faith based idea... there is not proof that there IS a god(s), nor is there proof that there ISN'T... since it's inconclusive either way, it takes faith to choose one side over the other... there isn't a default from which faith is required to leave that default to a different position. As such, it falls under the same umbrella as all other religions... it is a set of ideals used to explain the origin and purpose of life and the world. Monotheism, Polytheism, Atheism... they're all from the same root... they're all quite similar.

Besides... if the government expresses the desire to show NO cross, or have NO prayer, etc... are they endorsing atheism? They are promoting the concept of no god over the idea of a god. That is, according to a consistant argument from atheists... unConstitutional!

log in or register to reply

Doorgunner| 8.16.11 @ 4:44PM

Um, Sparky, I don't have a TV either. And my atheism isn't based on faith. There is, for me, no evidence of a deity. I don't have "faith" of a deity's nonexistence, nor do I firmly conclude a nonexistence. I simply behave without obeisance to that particular non-perceived authority. I observe no rites. I attend no meetings. And as I do recognize the fallibility of man, I assign no supreme authority to governmental agencies or personae.

So how is that a religion?

log in or register to reply

YeloStalyn| 8.16.11 @ 5:02PM

You do have "faith" in a diety's nonexistance. If you don't... what is your proof that one doesn't exist. You can't prove that any more than I can prove there is a diety. As such, we are each chosing, for whatever irrational reason we want, to accept some sort of overriding worldview about man and his purpose and morality... ie, our religion. One dictates that we worship a diety... one dictates that we are our own boss. One says that morality comes from without... the other from within. They are the same coin... just two sides (and with many religions in the picture, it's more like the sides of a die). Islam is a religion and says I have to pray on a mat every day. I don't... so does that mean I don't believe in some religion? The failure to adhere to one or more "rites" isn't all it takes to not be part of a religion. You can't escape it any more than you can say you're not a man (I assume you are, I could be wrong and if so, adjust my statement accordingly) and therefore not be one. Atheism isn't organized, nor is it codified... but it is still, in its most basic form, a religion.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:16PM

That sir, is agnosticism, not atheism. Your gentlemanliness is unquestionable either way.

log in or register to reply

BD57| 8.16.11 @ 7:50PM

Your ignorance of God is breathtaking, your hatred of Christians obvious - and your superiority complex undeserved.

Thank you for contributing nothing to the conversation.

log in or register to reply

Herb| 8.16.11 @ 8:55PM

"you christers"

Dave, that tells all of us us everything we will ever need to know about you.

log in or register to reply

POST American| 8.16.11 @ 8:45AM

MEANWHILE, always telling to reflect, never
so much as an atheist OR christian OR jewish
word of criticism regarding the absolutely pervasive
Luciferian iconography that saturates
D.C., ALL state capitals, our money, the corporate world,
and virtually ALL media and entertainment.

Never even heard a word about this from the
'outrageous' Chritopher Hitchens.

-------------------------NEVER----------------------------

log in or register to reply

Dick Nome| 8.16.11 @ 9:06AM

Is Incoherence a religion?? Just wondering.

log in or register to reply

Dave| 8.16.11 @ 8:49AM

To the aetheists: You do not have any protection from being offended. Get used to it. Grow up. Nuff said.

log in or register to reply

TrueBlue| 8.16.11 @ 11:44AM

Side effect of Political Correctness, sadly they do. Unfortunately, those of us who are religious don't get the same protection from being offended, because Islam is the only PC accepted religion.

log in or register to reply

David W| 8.16.11 @ 9:10AM

You find out where the people who file these lawsuits live. Then you talk with their neighbors and ask permission to plant dozens of crosses in their yards, all perfectly legal. Then, when they leave their home and see hundreds of crosses (and throw in a few Stars of David) their heads will implode....

log in or register to reply

Jordan| 8.16.11 @ 9:12AM

How about freedom to practice religion. Atheists forget it goes both ways and this should be pointed out.
http://www.summer-products.com
http://www.jerseys-hats-store.com

log in or register to reply

Kobe| 8.16.11 @ 9:13AM

They are agents of tyranny.
http://www.ainibag.com
http://www.honey-gifts.com

log in or register to reply

Michael Tomlinson| 8.16.11 @ 9:26AM

I wonder how they feel about displays of the Hammer and Sickle, the Chinese flag, Mao's Red Book or Che's face. All are symbols of murderous communism/atheism and representative of atheist/communist states that have killed more people than any other organization on earth. Even Islam isn't as bloody.

log in or register to reply

Kingofthenet| 8.16.11 @ 9:35AM

The Atheists are RIGHT in pointing out the hypocrisy of using theperpetrators view of religion to fly planes into buildings, and some of the victims using a slightly different form of religion for mental strength. I imagine the last words out of Mohammad Atta's lips were a prayer to Allah.

log in or register to reply

YeloStalyn| 8.16.11 @ 4:12PM

Sodium and Chloride are both needed to make up salt (Islam and Christianity, along with others, are needed to make up the world's religions). But one on their own is NOT equal to the other. If you beleive that... go eat straight chlorine (not the same as what's in your local pool) and see.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:19PM

No, no, I don't really see where Islam is necessary, any more than I see the "necessity" of schizophrenia, Sir. In 480 AD it wasn't necessary, and the world was perfectly OK (indeed, A HELL OF A LOT BETTER) without it.

log in or register to reply

YeloStalyn| 8.17.11 @ 10:02AM

Necessary only in semantic terms... it is, by definition, one of the world's religions. I don't think it's that great of one (far from it)... but it is one.
And I certainly don't mean to say it's necessary spiritually.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:14PM

Gotcha, Yelo. Good stuff.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:18PM

Hypocrisy...hmmm...some of the firefighters died saving people with Jesus on their lips as they died. A bit different, morally, from cowardly jihadists who would not stand toe to toe with other warriors on the field of battle.

log in or register to reply

da monk| 8.17.11 @ 9:41AM

Occam's Tool: Have you considered that there may have been Jewish firefighters, Muslim firefighters, Atheist firefighters on 9/11? After all New York City is a mult-religous city. And that's what make it great

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:16PM

Yes, there were probably Muslim firefighters. The problem is that Islam as a POLITICAL entity is just plain evil, and the way it is proselytized is through a political fashion. Yeah, I'm sure there are nice Muslims allover the place. But ALL of the major political Islamic groups are unpleasant. Not a single leader of Khomeini's staure saying "let's all get along"---and the majority of imams saying just the opposite.

log in or register to reply

Steve A| 8.16.11 @ 9:45AM

Hey Kingofthenuts, The fact that you equate & compare the religious motives of innocent victims & homicide bombers simply displays your ignorance.

Let me see.. Atta prayed & the Firemen prayed so everyone is equally offensive. Moron.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:31PM

Now Steve, King is avoiding ad hominem. The arguments I agree are dumb, but we want to encourage politeness.

By the way, King, here's July's bodycount from the RoP website, and some details from the most recent week:

Weekly Jihad Report
Aug 08 - Aug. 15 Jihad Attacks: 43

Allah Akbars: 5

Dead Bodies: 202

Critically Injured: 468

Monthly Jihad Report
July, 2011 Jihad Attacks: 167

Countries: 21

Religions: 5

Dead Bodies: 705

Critically Injured: 1090.

You see, King, most attacks are Crescent on Crescent, and so, aren't covered. Let's take a closeup: Islam's Latest Contributions to Peace
"Mohammed is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless
to the unbelievers but merciful to one another" Quran 48:29

2011.08.16 (Uruzgan, Afghanistan) - Eight innocents are dismantled by a Taliban motorcycle bomb at a market.
2011.08.16 (Kandahar, Afghanistan) - Fundamentalist gunmen muder an 18-year-old teenager as she is getting into her car.
2011.08.15 (Yusufiya, Iraq) - al-Qaeda kidnap seven Sahwa members from a mosque and execute them in cold blood.
2011.08.15 (Sokoto, Nigeria) - A half-dozen Nigerians are taken out by Boko Haram terrorists.
2011.08.15 (Heipang, Nigeria) - Seven children are among a Christian family of nine brutally murdered in their home by Muslim raiders.
2011.08.15 (Kut, Iraq) - Over three dozen shoppers at a market are snuffed out by al-Qaeda bombers. The dead include twelve children.

Iraq, Nigeria, Afghanistan---doesn't include US troops, so who cares about the 12 kids.

Let's find the peaceful Imams---OK, and I'll try to find Clint's acceptance letter to The Hung Jury Club. Or Mensa. I'm sure I'll be as successful as you in finding the peaceful politically connected Imams.

log in or register to reply

Notary Sojac| 8.16.11 @ 9:57AM

The "American Atheists" filing this lawsuit have as much in common with the vast majority of atheists as the Westboro Baptist gang has with the majority of Christians.

For every atheist filing suit to get a cross or a creche off public property, there are a hundred more of us who quietly go about our non-believing ways. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some of us sharing the pews at your church.

Just about the only thing that gets us in a fightin' mood is when someone suggests that we're all communists, or satanists, or support mass murder, or hate America. In other words, many of the comments appearing up-thread of this one.

log in or register to reply

Pelligrino| 8.16.11 @ 10:55AM

N. Sojac, point taken, sort of. But:

We have to battle for every tiny Judeo-Christian shred of our historic, cultural culture now. Every stitch which we know helped build the strengths of this nation and others. Example: The Ten Commandments.

But there are many.

This is a much more nationally famous story - http://articles.sfgate.com/201.....l-preserve -- just so many current and recent incidents just like this one. Ones that never hit the news.

It is depressing for people of Christian faith to experience such outward hatred, to always have to be on the defensive. And to always know we should muster inner calm, mercy and grace when in these unnecessary and agonizing legal battles.

It hurts and greatly saddens that atheists look about and ignore God. Why so -- willfully - blind? Why so willfull to choose not to aknowledge that our blessings come from God?

Please accept this as I offer it -- in love: Romans chapter 1, verses 18 to 22. Particularly the last phrase in verse 20.

That is not hate. It is the opposite.

log in or register to reply

Notary Sojac| 8.16.11 @ 2:21PM

"It hurts and greatly saddens that atheists look about and ignore God."

You should not be hurt or saddened by this, unless an atheist seeks to weaken or destroy your faith. I for one would never intentionally do so.

log in or register to reply

YeloStalyn| 8.16.11 @ 4:15PM

While you may not... many others do. Granted Christians want everyone to be Christian... the difference, often, is that we don't seek the court to mandate the prohibition of the expression that there is no god (by removing any reference to one). The nation, by default, accepts that God of the Judeo/Christian faith is real. It's codified into our founding documents, expressed in clearer terms by their authors, and was upheld for years by the SCOTUS. To begin removing Him from the public discourse and, therefore, promote the idea that man is alone in his moral determination is anathema to Christianity and this nation's origin.

log in or register to reply

Notary Sojac| 8.16.11 @ 7:49PM

YeloStalyn, that is a really interesting post and I wish we could continue this discussion at length.

When you say that removing God from the public discourse is "anathema to Christianity", are you saying that Christianity doctrine requires that the faith must be integrated into the fabric of the state?

My read of the history of Christianity and of the New Testament leads me to a slightly different conclusion.

log in or register to reply

YeloStalyn| 8.17.11 @ 10:11AM

Does the CHURCH need to be woven into the state? No! That is part of what the pilgrims were leaving. That and the state being woven into the Church. But the two entities need not be interlinked to allow for the beliefs to be. For example, is it wrong that the Declaration states that we are given our rights from our Creator? The Declaration lays out the ideas that lead to the Contitution... one of them being that man is subject to God, not government. And that government is subject to man. Our Constitutional convention even convened with a prayer. They held meetings in churches. Many of the states' Constitutions established certain denominations as prime. Some even excluded members from other faiths to hold office in that state. The SCOTUS even said we were a Christian nation far before it said we weren't (and the funny thing is that liberals keep saying that we can't overturn Roe v Wade yet it was OK to overturn this ruling).

The idea is not that we have to be a theocracy, or that the state can dictate the church... but that our rules are written for a moral people. Our history and heritage is based first on the belief of God... and through that, we understand that not all people accept God, but we will accept them. And they will be equal in our civics. But that doesn't mean we have to jettison God from our public discourse or from our public morality. The PEOPLE can be as relgious as we want. We can't use the state to force that on someone else. And no where does the state recognizing God equate mandating that others do so as well.

log in or register to reply

chemman| 8.16.11 @ 9:36PM

One of the Prayers of Jesus in the Book of John is: "Father I pray that they are one as we are one, that the world might know you sent me" If the world rejects Christ and God it isn't their fault it is ours because we don't demonstrate that oneness to them. Lay off the atheists and work on your own life.

log in or register to reply

da monk| 8.17.11 @ 9:45AM

Pelligrino: From what I read of the attached comments it seems most of those attesting to being Christian are on the offense damning any un-religious group who have the same rights as every Christian in the United States.

log in or register to reply

Drunken Sailor| 8.16.11 @ 12:53PM

"I wouldn't be at all surprised to find some of us sharing the pews at your church."

I take your point but the above statement has me scratching my head as to why a aethist would be sharing a church pew? Not all atheist fit the same mold, just as not all christians do. But if we are going to ask the Muslims to stand up and speak out against the Muslim fanatics committing acts of terrorism, would you not also expect us to ask the peaceful atheist to speak out against the acts of the militant atheist? No offense intended but I would honestly like to know if you can see this view?

log in or register to reply

DRed| 8.16.11 @ 1:35PM

I'm a non-believer, but I occasionally go to church with members of my family or if I find myself staying with a religious friend.

log in or register to reply

Drunken Sailor| 8.16.11 @ 1:54PM

Thanks for clearing that up.

log in or register to reply

Notary Sojac| 8.16.11 @ 2:18PM

"why an atheist would be sharing a church pew?"

I know more than one person who continues to attend church services in order to maintain peace with family/friends, long after he or she has completely ceased to believe. My mother did so for upwards of twenty years.

"would you not also expect us to ask the peaceful atheist to speak out against the acts of the militant atheist?"

I do, and I have so spoken out.

When a fanatical Christian group (i.e. Westboro) does something repulsive I never generalize their behavior to all Christians. Likewise, when a fanatical atheist group does something repulsive I expect a similar courtesy with respect to me.

log in or register to reply

Drunken Sailor| 8.16.11 @ 2:51PM

"I do, and I have so spoken out"

Noted in your previous post and appreciate it. You, unfortunately are becoming a minority.

As for folks like the Westboro church, my grandfather summed it up beautifully. "Just because you go to church doesn't mean your a christian".

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:22PM

Hey, I've been best man at a Catholic wedding. The man who was supposed to be best man was a Navy Aviator and died, so the groom picked me to take his place. Highest honor of my life for this Jewish kid.

Whether I agreed with the religion or not, I did everything I was told to do to make that ceremony come off as best I could. Only time I've ever been Best Man. 1st and only Catholic service I've attended.

log in or register to reply

ellen | 8.16.11 @ 4:33PM

If you don't believe, don't mention God. And it is great that you go to Church. God is trying to tell you something.

log in or register to reply

Kingofthenet| 8.16.11 @ 9:58AM

It's a distinction without a difference an Atheist would say. I'll prove it, let's say you heard a group of Terrorists were planning to kill your fellow Americans, would you take off your uniform or deceive and lie to them to be able to take them out, to protect your F&F? Sure you would! How is you doing that DIFFERENT than a devout Muslim blowing up the Pentagon 'War machine' or Ft Hood to kill what HE perceives to be aggressors?

log in or register to reply

Steve A| 8.16.11 @ 10:21AM

Oh, I don't know. I suppose you have to pick a side & choose between the following camps: Osama, Mohammad Atta & Co., Nidal Hasan ( Group A)

Or: Twin Tower Office Workers; US Army eating lunch, Air Travel Commuters, Pentagon Secretaries. (Group B)

Go ahead & factor in all of the known motives of both camps & make a pick. Just take a stab at it & use your best judgement.

log in or register to reply

Kingofthenet| 8.16.11 @ 10:34AM

I was being more Philosophical than real, but it is good for ANY Military to try and understand one's Enemy and try and see what motivates him. Just as if a terrorist cell blows up a bus of schoolkids, we wouldn't believe them if they said it was a mistake, that they meant to blow up some military asset.Why would a Pakistani believe we were telling the truth when we said we were trying to kill militants, when a family was mistakenly hit. All I know is this, we HAVE to try and peel away the so called 'Dead Enders' without gaining MORE recruits to the side of Jihad. Otherwise all the bullets in the world won't be enough to end this thing.

log in or register to reply

TrueBlue| 8.16.11 @ 11:53AM

That's what we have nukes for, don't need bullet, just the will to use the weapons necessary to make the other side cease and desist.

Middle Eastern countries do not have the same mentality of the Judeo-Christian world. They have more in common with the Asian cultures when it comes to concepts of shame and defeat. You fight to the last man, woman, and child, and you do not give in until they PROVE that they are stronger than you. If they will not do what it takes to stop you, then they are WEAK. We were willing to take those necessary steps in WWII to save American lives, but those who "lead" us now are no longer willing to do what is needed. Political Correctness has destroyed our ability to fight a war. War is not nice stuffed bears, cuddle bunnies, and tea; War is Hell. Radical Islam is at WAR with us, people need to accept it.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:23PM

Trinitite. Precisely created and distributed, it could stop the Islamic war against the West 30 minutes from now, and we could be eating our dinners and watching the show while it's being made.

log in or register to reply

Steve A| 8.16.11 @ 12:34PM

I do understand what you are attempting to say. I get it, I really do. I see how the relatives of those Pakistanis would become radicalized.

I do agree that we should try to better understand would be terrorists & their pals. This way, we will be in a better position to kill them. After all, what difference does it really make. This is all just a big, colossal waste of time as God does not exist (according to the wisdom of The Mighty Atheist Movement)

Perhaps if The Atheists could talk some sense into The Terrorists Killing For Allah & give them the memo that there is no God to kill for, we will be all set. I nominate you to take the lead.

log in or register to reply

RealityCheck| 8.16.11 @ 12:55PM

We could win this "conflict" overnight. Cancel every middle east oil contract and watch the entire region implode. Ignore the rest. If the Iragis and Afghans, etc. don't want to go back to the 12th century, that's their problem, let them die for it.

If some state sponsors terrorist actions against us, rain violence from the sky and let them enjoy the 12th century like their neighbors.

Sadly, our leadership would have to grow the stones to do this first.

log in or register to reply

W| 8.16.11 @ 10:57AM

King,
You are playing in the moral relativism swamp. We were told the Islam is a religion of peace, therefore a devout Muslim would not blow up the Pentagon, Ft Hood, Twin Towers, numrous Israeli public buildings, Madrid station, London station, etc. Now a radical Muslim would, but not a devout Muslim.

log in or register to reply

Kingofthenet| 8.16.11 @ 12:15PM

OK I see your point, but our Govt. often acts at cross-purposes. Take the 'Civil Rights' Era you had J Edgar Hoover and the FBI trying to destroy BOTH Martin Luther King & the Black Panthers. Now the Radical Black Panthers WERE a problem, MLK was NOT. In fact a sane,smart Govt. would have seen his movement as EXACTLY what a marginalized group SHOULD do, stay peaceful and work INSIDE the laws of the land for peaceful change. If you don't give people a peaceful way out, they will naturally take the violent one.We really need to do this with Islam, Peaceful Imam's and leaders need our 100% support, while firebrands need marginalization.

log in or register to reply

W| 8.16.11 @ 12:21PM

Bobby Kennedy ordered the FBI on MLK. I would not equate our entire government with the actions of a few power hungry men.
Who are the leaders of the peaceful Muslims in the USA and abroad. I know there are some, but I can't think of any prominent ones on TV calling for peaceful resolution of issues. There are none as prominent and eloquent as MLK.

log in or register to reply

RealityCheck| 8.16.11 @ 1:00PM

Peaceful Imams? You dream. Islam's rules are simple...join or pay or die. The only Islamic peace is choice one.

log in or register to reply

Kingofthenet| 8.16.11 @ 3:52PM

Well we sure as hell can't kill our way out, IF as you say they are all bad, IF we than killed a MILLION a year, the last Muslim would die 1,200 years from now, and that doesn't count NEW births in the mean time.

log in or register to reply

W| 8.16.11 @ 5:38PM

What do we do?

log in or register to reply

RealityCheck| 8.17.11 @ 6:09PM

Simple...find the arab gene and use gene therapy to create a wind born compound to steralize the current arab population and make this the last generation of terroists. Plan B is to use many, many nukes...or more gene therapy to kill them where they stand.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:26PM

Don't think small if we go to war. What would be best is hitting them hard enough to get them to give up violence or legal means, yet not hard enough to have a sanitation problem.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.16.11 @ 7:25PM

There are almost NO peaceful Imams. 80% plus distribute violent materials. Saudi is funding a lot of them. That's the point, KOTN.

There are no MLKs or Ghandis on the other side. NONE.

log in or register to reply

Kingofthenet| 8.16.11 @ 8:16PM

Then WE better make some, assassinate the bad ones replace them with CIA plants...

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 2:00AM

Not possible without beating them into the ground, as per Japan and Germany. And, other than us, I don't see anyone interested, as Europe is a dead man walking.

An interesting post, in keeping with Steyn and others:

"Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:01:31 | The Population Crash
Going east, from the bright lights of Munich into Saxony, part of the former East Germany, the train slowed. Outside, the streets looked dirtier and the people older, poorer, and more disheveled. At Plauen—a traditional center of lace making that hosted the first McDonald's in eastern Germany after the Berlin Wall came down—a drunk fell off the train. He dumped his bike in a heap on the platform before haphazardly waving us off. The train rocked on, past boarded-up apartment blocks, sickly yellow trees, and burned-out factories. The only thing that looked new was a sign for a shop that simply said "Bad Service." Even the graffiti looked halfhearted. There were no well-dressed Bavarian city girls left on the train now; old ladies got off in pairs; the carriage was more male as each stop passed.

Even at eight p.m. on a sunny summer's evening, the roads were empty in Chemnitz, an industrial center known for forty years as KarlMarx-Stadt. The tiny summerhouses on suburban allotments were deserted. I have seen the derelict, rust belt landscapes of former industrial towns before—not least in England, on trains from Sheffield to Doncaster or Birmingham to Wolverhampton. But this world seemed drained of people. In Bavaria, I had asked if anyone ever went to Dresden or beyond. Most shuddered at the idea. I could have been asking about Chernobyl. Of course there were people about, but far fewer than there once were. Out east, the fatherland was becalmed.

I was destined for Hoyerswerda, a town two hours beyond Dresden, close to the Polish border. It has lost half its population in the past twenty years. The young and those with qualifications have left—young women especially. Those that remain have almost given up having babies. The place is becoming an aging ghost town. The main municipal activity is tearing down the bleak apartment blocks of the old socialist utopia. Hoyerswerda is giving street after street "back to nature," though nature shows a reluctance to recolonize the concrete. This isn't the energizing reunification, the "blooming landscape" that Chancellor Helmut Kohl promised after East and West Germany were joined in 1990. Hoyerswerda (known to its citizens as Hoy Woy) seems a town without a purpose, in a corner of Europe without a future.

On the windswept roof of the Lausitz Tower, the town's only landmark, I met Felix Ringel. A young German anthropologist studying at Cambridge in England, he passed up chances taken by his friends to study the rituals of Amazon tribes or Mongolian peasants. As we surveyed the empty plots of fenced scrub below, he explained that the underbelly of his own country seemed weirder and far less studied than these exotic worlds. I rather agreed. And the more I thought about it, the less like the past it looked—and the more like the future.

In its heyday in the 1960s, Hoyerswerda had been a model community in communist East Germany, a brave new world attracting migrants from all over the country. They dug brown coal from huge open-pit mines on the plain around the town. There was good money and two free bottles of brandy a month. Many more worked at power plants that burned the coal and sent electricity as far as Berlin. Hoy Woy pioneered a new design of prefabricated concrete apartment buildings calledplattenbauten. They were the forerunners of thousands of blocks built across the whole of Europe, west as well as east. The town was also proud to have East Germany's first shopping mall and streets named after Soviet cosmonauts.

But the collapse of communist East Germany changed all that. It was here in 1989, in the towns and cities of Saxony, that the people of the east started moving west to capitalism and freedom. Sealed "freedom trains" carried fleeing Poles and Czechs west on the Dresden-Leipzig railway. Hundreds of thousands demonstrated in Leipzig, Dresden, and Chemnitz against the Honecker regime. Then, after the Berlin Wall came down and communism fell, eastern Germans too flooded west.

At the head of the queue were the young, and especially young, women. Under communism, East German women worked more than the more conservative western hausfrau. They also were often better educated. When their jobs disappeared in the early 1990s, hundreds of thousands of them, encouraged by their mothers, took their school diplomas and CVs and headed for the west to cities like Heidelberg. The boys, seeing their fathers out of work, often gave up. Today there are twice as many eastern German male school dropouts as females. In adulthood, they form a rump of ill-educated, alienated, often unemployable men, most of them unattractive mates—a further factor in the departure of young women.

Reiner Klingholz, director of the Berlin Institute for Population and Development, calls it a "male emergency." He has a bleak map of the sex ratio of eighteen- to twenty-nine-year-olds across Germany. At the border between west and east, the color changes from the blues and pinks of a female majority in the west to the dark reds and browns of the east, where men are in the majority. In Heidelberg in the west, there are today 122 young women for every hundred young men. Outside Berlin, most eastern towns have fewer than eighty women left for every hundred men.

But this is not just an emergency for men, for the exodus from the east is only part of the story. That may end now that the economic bubble in the west has burst. What looks less likely to end is the collapse of childbearing across eastern Germany. The former people's republic is staring into a demographic abyss, because its citizens don't want babies anymore.

After the Berlin Wall came down, millions of eastern Germans who stayed behind decided against producing another generation. Their fertility decreased to less than half its former level. In 1988, 216,000 babies were born in East Germany; in 1994 just 88,000 were born in the region. In the south, in Brandenburg and Saxony, baby making fell by two-thirds. No demographers predicted it. "There has been nothing comparable in world peacetime history," says a French demographer, Jean-Claude Chesnais. The fertility rate worked out at 0.8 children per woman. Since then, it has struggled up to around 1.2, only just over half the rate needed to maintain the population.

Because of outward migration and falling fertility among those who have stayed behind, virtually the whole of the former East Ger many is losing population. About a million homes have been abandoned. The government is demolishing them as fast as it can. More than 400,000 were scheduled to go by the end of 2009. Left behind are "perforated cities," with huge random chunks of wasteland. Europe hasn't seen cityscapes like this since the bombing of the Second World War.

Magdeburg and Chemnitz, both large industrial cities, have lost a fifth of their population. The bars and cinemas and offices have all shut, along with the factories. "Some towns are losing their purpose," says Katrin Grossmann, a Leipzig geographer. Halle has lost 23 percent of its population and Gorlitz 24 percent. Gera and Suhl in Thuringia; Cottbus near the Polish border in Brandenburg; Dessau in Saxony-Anhalt; and Neubrandenburg near the Baltic coast—all have lost more than 15 percent. Erfurt, the capital of Thuringia, has half as many children as in 1990.

But no town has emptied as much as Hoyerswerda. In the 1980s it had a population of 75,000 and the highest birth rate in East Germany. But today, with the mines and power stations shut, the town's population has been reduced by half. Hoy Woy has gone from being Germany's fastest-growing town to its fastest-shrinking. Once with the youngest population in East Germany, it is now has among the oldest. The town authorities say there are seven thousand fewer families. Surplus apartments are being demolished. Those citizens who remain huddle together in clots of urbanity. A quarter of them are unemployed.

Most of the schools have closed. In twenty years the number of children under fifteen has fallen by 80 percent. The biggest age groups today are in their sixties and seventies, and the town's old birth clinic is now an old people's home. Its population pyramid is upturned—more like a mushroom cloud.

The pockmarked plain around the town, which once hummed with industrial activity, is now deserted, apart from a clutch of wind turbines that beat mockingly on the horizon. The mayor of Hoyerswerda, Stefan Skora, hopes to halt the population slide at thirty thousand. The town's Web site talks brightly of a "town in transition." The old coal mines will be flooded and turned into "the biggest artificial lake district in Europe," a holiday camp for water sports. But who will come ?

There are still nice people here who try to preserve the old sense of community. In a school in a partly demolished suburb known even to its inhabitants simply as Area Nine, I met Nancy, a tattooed and quiet-

spoken social worker. Forty years ago, Nancy's parents were among the newcomers. Her mother was a midwife and her father a train driver. "We came from Magdeburg. There were modern flats and services here then. It was a prestige development, a modern socialist city." But now? It's not just the infrastructure, it's the people, she said.

"Teachers here have lost their moral influence within the community. They are just educators now. But the children need more. Once, when you asked the kids what they wanted to do when they grew up, they had ambitions to drive buses or work in the power station. Now they joke, 'I'll go to Netto.' " Netto is the local discount store where the alcoholics hang out and the neo-Nazi skinheads prowl. "Parents find it very difficult to encourage their children to think ahead when they have no jobs or prospects themselves." Those who can, go. "My friends have all left. I'd like to stay, but I have a three-year-old daughter and the schools are no good anymore. I'll probably go too."

Further out, in Area Ten, I came across Marco. He's twenty-seven. "Only criminals live in this neighborhood now," he said. It was so rough, even the bar had recently closed. Neo-Nazis had taken over the Christian youth club. Marco, the child of an alcoholic mother and a violent father, spent five years in the town orphanage and was doing odd jobs to pay off debts. As we shared a Coke, his face was scared and exuberant, fragile and intense, delicate and feral. "I don't know who I am yet," he said. "I've never experienced a family. I'd love to have my own. But this place is empty for me. I get so angry, I thought of slitting a woman once. I'd like to go to America when I am out of my debt; that's my dream." The dream of a doomed man in a dying town.

Strangely enough, in this adversity, some kids show spirit. Felix took me to meet artists, photographers, rock musicians, and graffiti artists at the town's arts center, known as the Kufa. Local heroes include Hoy Woy's answer to Bruce Springsteen. Gerhard Gundermann was an excavator operator at one of the mines who became a melancholic singer-songwriter. He died at age forty-three. Ten years later, the Hoy Woy counterculture still reveres him. But the city fathers hate him. He was in the Stasi, they say. But then a third of the country—and no doubt a third of Hoy Woy's citizens—were signed on to the secret police's fabled network for spying on its own citizens. It was a passport to survival— especially, perhaps, among cultural dissidents.

Anyhow, the kids don't care. At the Kufa they have made a street sign in Gundermann's name. They want to put it up in place of one of the cosmonauts' signs. But even in a post-Soviet world, the city won't let them. "For us, nothing has changed," said Uwe Proksch, the bearded, laid-back boss of the Kufa. "We are still the outsiders, still the subversives. The city authorities think we are weird people doing odd things."

Marco stays. He probably always will. But with no jobs or prospects, the smart kids depart as soon as they can. "There is no reason to stay," said high school student photographer Florian, as we looked at his moody photos of the town at night. His friend Benny, a graphic artist, was bound for art college in Dresden. It is where a lot of the Hoy Woy boys end up. Even the prostitutes went there, says Felix. By order. "Brothels are allowed only in towns with more than fifty thousand people. We are below that now." Sex, like much else, is now for sale only in Dresden, two hours away by train.

Of course, rust belt cities have gone into decline before, hollowed out by industrial decay and the flight to the suburbs. But normally, suburbanites commute to the city for office work and entertainment. And their children move into city-center apartment blocks when they grow up. The cities transform and renew themselves. But in eastern German towns today, there is simply nobody left to rebuild. The total population of the former East Germany has fallen from 16.7 million to 13.6 million since reunification.

Communities are falling apart. Racism is endemic in the clutch of small towns between the big Saxony cities of Dresden, Leipzig, and Chemnitz. Wurzen is home to a mail-order company selling clothes and music extolling the far right. One summer night in Mugeln, a row on a dance floor escalated into a crosstown manhunt. Neo-Nazis pursued Indian youths to a pizzeria, which they ransacked, leaving fourteen people injured.

Most famously, there is Hoyerswerda. Back in 1991, a group of more than two hundred refugees from Mozambique partied long into the night in their hostel in the town. Sleepless locals got angry. Soon there was a fierce standoff. The police didn't know what to do. In the chaos of reunification, there were no politicians to tell them. Things escalated. The hostel was besieged for almost a week before the military came to the rescue. Across Germany, it is the one thing most people know about Hoyerswerda. It reinforces the image of parts of Saxony as a feral wasteland.

Feral enough for wolves. Crossing the borders from Poland and the Czech Republic, the new inhabitants have been arriving for several years now. Slinking into the depopulated towns and villages of Saxony, wolves are finding empty spaces where once there were apartment blocks and mines. They are staying. A few miles down the road from Hoyerswerda, near the tiny town of Spreewitz, wolf enthusiast Ilka Reinhardt can't believe his luck. "We have more wolves than we have had in two hundred years," he told Der Spiegel in 2007.

He spends nights driving through Saxony trying to follow the signals given off by radio collars he has fitted to a handful of the beasts. The badlands of the former East Germany are indeed going " back to nature." And Europeans should be worried, for some fear that eastern Germany is, as it was back in the sixties, a trailblazer for the demographic future of the continent."

Extrapolate, and remember Spain is like Germany is like Greece is like the UK (where Mohammed, in various spellings, is the most popular name) is like Sweden is like Norway is like France (elevated (but still below replacement) birthrate in France is interesting, as they won't tell you what percentage is Muslim) is like Belgium (the Brussels City Council is majority Muslim) is like Japan is like Russia is like China....

Look up the Demographics, man. Do NOT believe me on this. Go to the UN demographic website and spend an uncomfortable night having a "Soylent Green is made of people" moment. Other than Israel, guess what the countries with above replacement birthrates have in common?

Do this, and then come back and tell me what a maniac I am.

But until you've looked at the demographics, combined that knowledge with an MD degree, and realize what the health outcomes of, say, a majority of babies being born in your country being born to parents who are first cousins and descendants themselves of parents who were first cousins are going to be to an NHS that has declining workers supporting the finances, while your work force grows more dependent on goverment dole and less well educated, while your inbred youths also belong to a faith that has a reputation (well-earned) for violence---do that and extrapolate and see what you see.

Or just turn on the TV and look at the riot scenes in the UK today.

Yup, I'm a madman. Seeing truth plainly can drive one mad.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 2:05AM

Sorry, "government dole."

log in or register to reply

cowgirl| 8.17.11 @ 3:06PM

Beautifully written!!

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:18PM

From you, an extraordinary compliment, madam. Thanks. I love your stuff!

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:25PM

Sometime--look up the "German Lingerie Burkha ad." Just do it, especially you, DRed, sir.

log in or register to reply

Pzkfw| 8.17.11 @ 6:00PM

Excellent post.

As a postwar German, born in Hamburg, I'm amazed at what has occured in the country of my birth. No only did the "west" Germans ignore the needs of the "east", but Germany is forced to accept the worlds trash at the risk of being declared Nazis again. I visited Munich, and when I went to my hotel across from the train station, I might as well have been in Bagdhad. Entire streets had shops with arabic signs and no German was heard at all.

Islam and Muslims are a global infection of hate and the Germans are precluded from using any cure. All of us should keep in mind that a majority of the 9/11 terrorists were based in Hamburg.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:20PM

Yup. And what really hurts is I had a number of West German friends in College---including my FAVORITE roommate, and I'm really very, very worried for them.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:30PM

Might I suggest (do not read the afterword) that you pick up "Caliphate" by Tom Kratman. Tom is a Lt. Colonel, has run an infantry batallion, and is a JD who taught at the Army War College in Rule of Law. You won't like it, King, but it lays out my rationale as well as anything you'll see.

And again, check out the CIA factbook and the UN Demographic site. This is the UN Demographic site: http://unstats.un.org/unsd/dem...../dyb2.htm.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:27PM

By the way, King, appreciate your niceness on this thread. Seriously. I like argument, but I like to avoid insult unless its you know who.

log in or register to reply

tadcf| 8.16.11 @ 10:11AM

You only have to look at Rick Perry and Michelle Bachmann to see what unbridled theosophy reeks in the world of politics. Law suits against such religious icons are just a part of stemming the headlong race of radical toward a theocratic government.

log in or register to reply

Drunken Sailor| 8.16.11 @ 12:56PM

Nice spin tad but the left has been marching down the path against theosophy (as you put it) much longer than Perry or Bachmann have been using theology in their campaigns.

log in or register to reply

Pelligrino| 8.16.11 @ 10:34AM

This is just like the street in NYC that is supposed to be named/renamed "Seven in Heaven Way." I think this is the right name. A rather benign name, no? Even this referral to "Heaven" on the street sign garnered the ire of the offense industry atheists.

The news story on this: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011.....11victims/

My query: Isn't so much of this just the handiwork of lawyers looking to make a name for themselves in what they dearly hope will be high profile cases?

They don't give a whit about real values; they only value their career trajectories.

log in or register to reply

TrueBlue| 8.16.11 @ 12:10PM

And how much they get paid. That's why the costs of so many services have gotten so high, sue happy people forcing companies/hospitals to keep lawyers on retainer to fight off frivolous lawsuits.

log in or register to reply

Purple Lips| 8.16.11 @ 3:01PM

Just wait a decade. After the Muslim "Community Center" is built (in the Muslim world, they use the noun rabbat), it won't be long before some side street will be named Mohammed Avenue. A few years later, a full sized Mosque will be erected.... and the ACLU and all the multi-cultis will even force the taxpayers to fund it.

log in or register to reply

JimH| 8.16.11 @ 1:55PM

I do wonder why anyone would care or claim to be harmed by a symbol of something which supposedly doesn't exist.

log in or register to reply

ellen | 8.16.11 @ 5:20PM

Jim, I wonder the same.

log in or register to reply

Gary| 8.16.11 @ 2:27PM

How in the Hell are atheists "offended" by a cross in their line of vision if they have no belief except there is no God? How does religion offend whatever moral code (if any) they claim to adhere to? The truth is they are not offended, but they do hate religion and will use or abuse the law to act on that hatred. I for one am sick of their caterwalling and moaning about religious symbols in the public eye and that the large majority of people who do believe have to alter their behavior so as not to "offend" atheists. Christians must, on a daily basis accept insults, mockery, hatred, intolerance from governments in other lands, the movies, comedians, a la Bill Maher, the snide, smug, self satisfied, foul mouthed, disciple of the non believers. Get s life you atheist cry babies.

log in or register to reply

Genma Saotome| 8.17.11 @ 4:15PM

No offense at all is given by visible religious symbols in someones home or place or worship. Plenty of offense when same is placed on Government property.

As for whining about what verbal comments theists have to put up with I can assure you whatever you have in mind is trivial compared to the verbal abuse an Atheist receives. Just look at the comments in this thread and count the instances of slurs on both. I'll bet it's close to 10:1 against atheists.

log in or register to reply

Notary Sojac| 8.16.11 @ 2:30PM

"Christians must, on a daily basis accept insults, mockery, hatred, intolerance from governments in other lands, the movies, comedians"

Did Christ promise his followers that they would not be mocked or hated?

log in or register to reply

YeloStalyn| 8.17.11 @ 10:14AM

That doesn't mean we can't attempt to change it or that it's right.

log in or register to reply

Purple Lips| 8.16.11 @ 2:41PM

I think we should frame the debate in clearer terms. If you would ask any of these atheists if the Muslims have a right to build a rabbat (a building erected in foreign lands that shelters and protects Muslims from the infidels) a few blocks from ground zero, they would whip out thier multi-culti cards and say an empahtic "Yes!".

So, they really aren't atheists, per se. But, what about thier loathing of Christians and all things "Western"? Well, the jihadist loath Christians and hate the West as well. But, most atheists I know do not pray to Mecca. Yet, if a squadron of sword wielding jannissaries came running down the hill we all know that these brave ahteists would not only surrender in meek supplication, but would turn-in every Christian they know. Nope, they're not atheists. A much better word is dhimmi.

log in or register to reply

cowgirl| 8.16.11 @ 2:59PM

There is no concept of the "Separation of Church and State" in the Constitution. The establishment clause in the First Amendment, like all other Amendments, was to limit the FEDERAL government's power over individual rights. Not vice versa. The Atheists have no case.

And please, please do not reply to this post something along the lines of "When Thomas Jefferson wrote the Constitution he wrote in the separation of church and state. Jefferson did not write the Constitution. He was in France at the time of the Constitutional Conventions and had no access to lan lines, blackberrys, iphones, email, the internet or even the pony express.

log in or register to reply

Nick| 8.17.11 @ 12:23AM

Cowgirl,

Excellent comment, ma'am.

Also, those who invoke Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists don't seem to understand that what he meant by "thus building a wall of separation between Church & State" was that the government should have no say in how churches operated. Not that churches should have no say in the function of government .

Churches have every right to make their views on the government known. And, people have every right to express their faith in God, even on government property.

log in or register to reply

Genma Saotome| 8.17.11 @ 1:15PM

As a conservative atheist, I agree that various religions can and should have a say in public matters -- as should atheists.

The problem as I see it comes when a particular group attempts to seize the power and authority of government to make a statement to endorse their religion. That is just wrong.

log in or register to reply

Nick| 8.17.11 @ 2:52PM

Genma Saotome,

Can you name anytime in American history that this has occurred?

Even the Catholic Church, of which I am a proud member, gets a very bad rap for this. I don't deny that there have been some popes and bishops who interfered too much in the affairs of state.

But, the historical record clearly shows that the majority of the interference came from temporal rulers poking their noses in the affairs of the Church.

log in or register to reply

Genma Saotome| 8.17.11 @ 4:07PM

Look at any U.S. coin Sir, or read the current version of the Pledge of Allegiance. Both are an affront to any one who does not subscribe to a single deity -- which is to say all atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, as well as followers of Shinto, Confucius, and any number of animist beliefs -- something applicable to many Americans.

Just because those persons are a minority of the whole population does not grant the special privileges and recognition to the majority to make use of Government assets for their own use.

log in or register to reply

Occam's Tool| 8.17.11 @ 10:23PM

Ma'am, the founders were against an "established church, "like the Church of England. There not opposed to religionin the public square.

Has anyone ever thought of just being nice to people? When my inlaws get together for a family bash and someone has a Christian prayer at the table, I don't loudly cough and sing the "Shma" at the top of my voice. There used to be common sense, you know. What's happened to it. This little thing gives solace to victims of the worst act of terror on US soil. What the hell?

log in or register to reply

Genma Saotome| 8.18.11 @ 1:44PM

It's Sir, not Ma'am, and, FWIW, my posting name has nothing to do w/ my real name or nationality -- I'm an American descended from VA. and DE. colonists, early 1600's.

I have no problem with religious symbols being on display on private property, viewable by the public. It's their property, their call.

Public property is owned by the state. IN this case, it is the Port Authority of New York who owns this property, a corporate endeavor of the states of New Jersey & New York, approved under the U.S. Constitution by an act of U.S. Congress, managed by the Governors of those two states, plus 6 people they appoint, wholly financed by proceeds of capital assets paid for with tax dollars. An unaccountable Government entity.

And some person or persons unknown to me has decided that they will use the power and authority of this government institution to display a symbol of their own religion. It could have been a Muslim Crescent -- imagine just how well that would have gone over? Not too well I expect. Yet by all the pro-symbol posters in this thread it's perfectly right and proper that the symbol is for their own religion instead.

The hypocrisy of the pro-symbol posters is, frankly, staggering. Their symbol is fine. An alternative -- no symbol (which represents my own faith) is unpatriotic, evil, indicative of my being full of hate, diseased -- obviously I'm just a vampire feeding upon normal society.

Puleeeze.

All it takes is a simple test: If there is to be a symbol of religion on this public property, and the Christian Cross and the Jewish Star of David are NOT in the list of candidate symbols, how willing are you to let this public property be used to display only a statue of Buddha? Or only several Hindu gods? Or only the Muslim Crescent? How about only a Shinto animist statue? An African Shaman? Or some native American representation of a Coyote god?

Suddenly doesn't feel right, doesn't it? That's what realizing your own hypocrisy feels like.

log in or register to reply

cowgirl| 8.17.11 @ 2:57PM

England and most of Europe has literally thrown God out the back door and shut it. Based on the past few weeks, how do you think that is working for them?

log in or register to reply

Genma Saotome| 8.17.11 @ 4:01PM

I never said morality is wrong or useless, I only said there was no god and government had best not get into the business of allowing it's authority to be borrowed and used by specific religions.

log in or register to reply

cowgirl| 8.17.11 @ 3:03PM

You are correct sir. Nor do people understand how that misused metaphor became the interpretation of the Establishment Clause. It was used by a Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black who was an ex-member of the KKK in the 1947 case Evergood vs. New Jersey School Board.... A resident taxpayer of New Jersey brought the case against the school district because children who were attending Catholic Schools were using public school buses to get to school, thus using taxpayer's money. One must remember that the KKK not only hated blacks, but Jews and Catholics.

log in or register to reply

Dacron Mather| 8.16.11 @ 3:07PM

What sort of retromingent pismire would dare desecrate so potent a totem?

The National September 11 Memorial and Museum should deploy a 24-7 cordon of house-trained anteaters to prevent the perpetration of any further enormities.

log in or register to reply

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.16.11 @ 3:38PM

Atheists,
Christ died for you too.

Love one another.

log in or register to reply

Notary Sojac| 8.16.11 @ 7:36PM

Ken,

Hard to believe that the same person can say on the same day:

"Atheists, Christ died for you too. Love one another"

and

"Of course the atheists hate the cross... they are vampires and it burns them."

log in or register to reply

Kingofthenet| 8.16.11 @ 8:17PM

ALWAYS Remember, if you don't SIN, Jesus died for NOTHING....

log in or register to reply

Nick| 8.17.11 @ 12:25AM

You really are the King of the Kooks, Kook.

log in or register to reply

Groad| 8.16.11 @ 5:39PM

Interesting how a beginning commentary about 'Activist' radical atheists turned into a pissing match at all atheists. While I think atheists are lost in a sense, not all are evil or radical. Many will yet be enlightened. End of comments.

log in or register to reply

Robin Kavanagh| 8.16.11 @ 8:36PM

All that is needed is to let these misguided individuals speak their view and the stupidity of their argument is revealed. Give them their day in court and 2 minutes into proceedings the judge can throw the case out as the frivolous insulting nonsense that it is.

log in or register to reply

POST American| 8.16.11 @ 10:57PM

---------------------BOTTOM LINE---------------------

AGAIN, never even mentioned, much less
called out and challenged even by the 'daring
outrageous' Hitchens.

NEVER ---------------EVER.

NOT a GOOD sign----------------

log in or register to reply

Beverly Hall| 8.17.11 @ 7:56AM

The terrorist that attacked CREATED the CROSS, human hands did not make the cross, file suite against the terrorist . . .

log in or register to reply

Genma Saotome| 8.17.11 @ 1:11PM

The editorial has no idea of what it is talking about. Atheists don't hate god -- you cannot hate what doesn't exist -- we hate it when theists attempt to seize the power and authority of government to make a religious statement by and for a specific religion.

We also hate it when theists assume atheists hold particular (usually objectionable) political views. I'm a lifelong conservative Republican atheist who has never voted for a liberal running for any national office. I'm also completely pro life (conception obviously creates a new instance of that species). And there never has been a god.

So if this cross has as much as a penny of government contribution, it's wrong. OTOH, if it's all private money, on private property, let it stand.

log in or register to reply

PsychoDad| 8.19.11 @ 4:02PM

Yet you, and most atheists, refuse to capitalize "God" when used as a proper name. Do you also insist on referring to "xtians," rather than spelling out the dreaded name of "Christ"?

log in or register to reply

skip| 8.30.11 @ 7:33PM

Genma, The Descendant Of Those Colonists, From Virginia And Delaware, Who Likely Knew What John Jay Had To Say About Selecting American Government Representatives For Their Rulers:

What is your eternal existence going to be like if you aren't as intelligent and honest as you like to believe and find you are wrong about not just God Almighty but the Savior Christ ?

log in or register to reply

PsychoDad| 8.19.11 @ 3:58PM

'carried out by "religious fanatics in a faith-based initiative,"'

Funny, I thought the Current Truth and Correct Opinion was that those behind this man-caused disaster were IN NO WAY motivated by, or acting in the name of, "The Religion of Peace (TM)."

log in or register to reply