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Another Perspective
Rome vs. Beijing: China’s Catch-22
The Beijing government knows Catholicism’s moral influence could alleviate China’s corruption problems.
It’s hardly news that 2011 has witnessed a severe deterioration of relations between the Vatican and China. Nor is it any secret what’s at stake for Rome: the Catholic Church’s freedom in China from state control. Benedict XVI can no more accept that the lay bureaucrats (some of whom aren’t even Christian) who run the state’s Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association should decide who will be China’s Catholic bishops, any more than Pope Clement VII could acknowledge Henry VIII’s absurd claim to be Supreme Head of the Church of England in 1534.
There is, however, a broader backdrop against which this struggle is being played out. Much of it proceeds from internal contradictions unleashed by China’s embrace of capitalism.
Whether or not we believe the growth figures published by China’s government, there’s no question that millions of Chinese have escaped poverty since Deng Xiaoping began liberalizing China’s economy in the late-1970s. This has not, however, been without its complications.
It’s abundantly clear, for instance, that China’s economy is hardly the capitalism envisaged by Adam Smith. Instead, it’s a crony-capitalist arrangement. One symptom of this is the extensive corruption prevailing throughout Chinese society.
In 2010, Transparency International ranked China as 78th out of 179 countries on its Corruption Perceptions Index. That made China only slightly less-corrupt than Russia! Moreover, as Yashen Huang illustrates in Capitalism with Chinese Characteristics (2008), apparatchiks from China’s Communist party, government, and military exercise far-reaching control over thousands of the businesses powering China’s development in the special economic zones. That’s a recipe for a growing culture of accelerating bribes, nepotism, and fraud.
Wiser heads in China, however, know crony capitalism isn’t infinitely sustainable. In the long-term, China needs the rule of law and a stable system of property rights — all of which implies limiting the capacity of those with political power to act arbitrarily.
But while rule of law and property rights are essential for sustainable economic growth, they are not enough. Equally important is a generally accepted moral culture that most people have internalized and generally follow.
Here, however, Beijing is in a quandary. Thanks to decades of often-brutal upheaval (not to mention the nihilistic destruction unleashed by Mao’s Cultural Revolution), the Confucianism which provided the moral glue that held Chinese society together for centuries has been decimated. Nor does anyone believe in the Communist party’s Marxist-Maoist alternative. It simply functions to legitimize existing power-arrangements.
This brings us squarely to the issue of religion. Even someone as militantly anti-Catholic as Voltaire acknowledged Christianity’s civilizing effects upon those whom he dismissed as the great-unwashed.
And religion is plainly on the rise in China. Five years ago, the English language version of the Communist Party’s newspaper, China Daily, reported on the results of studies done by Shanghai University professors which indicated that millions of Chinese — especially the young and particularly in the special economic zones — were becoming Christian.
This shouldn’t be too surprising. It is materialism that leads to atheism, not the growth of wealth per se. Economic liberty requires and encourages people to think and choose freely. But such thoughts can’t be quarantined to commercial considerations. With increasing wealth, many Chinese now have the time and resources to explore life’s more important questions. Many have found answers in Christianity.
Such developments, according to some Chinese officials, aren’t necessarily a bad thing. Back in 2006, the then-head of China’s religious affairs ministry, Ye Xiaowen, begrudgingly acknowledged the various Christian churches’ contributions to helping Chinese society cope with the effects of increasing wealth.
Beijing’s predicament, however, is that the same Christianity which provides people with a moral compass in rapidly changing societies also insists the state is not God and may not exercise religious authority over the Church. This position is especially pronounced in Catholicism. It receives doctrinal and canonical affirmation in Catholicism’s insistence upon the need for all Catholic bishops to be in full communion with St. Peter’s successors as Bishop of Rome. Among other things, this means Rome’s approval must be granted before ordination as a Catholic bishop is considered licit.
China’s government thus faces a paradox. Some of China’s corruption problems might well be alleviated by the growth of Catholicism’s moral influence within its borders. As a faith, Catholicism articulates a moral teaching that is (even according to many of its critics) remarkably consistent and absolutely prohibits intentional choices to murder, steal, or lie. The Church also remains the world’s strongest promoter of natural law moral reasoning — something that, by definition, isn’t premised on explicitly Christian claims.
That same Catholic Church, however, cannot and will not bend the knee to contemporary China’s Caesars, be it on questions of doctrine or bishop appointments.
From this standpoint, Beijing’s quarrel with Rome is a proxy for many of China’s dilemmas. Today, the regime’s raison d’être is essentially one of a monopoly of power for its own sake: the same domination that contributes to the corruption that handicaps China economically, but which also rules out allowing significant freedom to those very organizations that might help address such problems.
The way out, of course, is for China’s rulers to accept freedom’s indivisible character. Once you concede religious or economic liberty, it’s hard to quarantine its effects. Acknowledging this, however, would require China’s Communist Party to self-terminate its grip on political power. Regrettably, as history illustrates, Communists never do that — or at least not until it’s truly inevitable.
About the Author
Samuel Gregg is Research Director at the Acton Institute. He has authored several books including On Ordered Liberty, his prize-winning The Commercial Society, Wilhelm Röpke’s Political Economy, and, most recently, Becoming Europe: Economic Decline, Culture, and America’s Future.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (368) | Leave a comment
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Bill S| 7.29.11 @ 8:21AM
That's a good one. As if the Catholic Church HAS any good moral influence. Between worshiping Mary and protecting pedophile priests around the world, the Catholic Church should have a bad reputation among genuine Christians. Catholics aren't Christians. They never were.
JimH| 7.29.11 @ 8:57AM
So, until Luther and Calvin there had been no Christians in the West? How do you feel about the Orthodox church? Are Coptics ok? Regarding China, what you can say about religion, any kind really, is that it is a threat to the party as it establishes a higher authority than the party itself.
Ryan| 7.29.11 @ 9:22AM
How, then, is God's promise to Abraham as to the number of his children fulfilled?
RCV| 7.29.11 @ 11:08AM
Crawl back under your rock, Bill.
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 11:19AM
Do Your homework Anti-Catholic Billy Boy.
"Despite headlines focusing on the priest pedophile problem in the Roman Catholic Church, most American churches being hit with child sexual-abuse allegations are Protestant, and most of the alleged abusers are not clergy or staff, but church volunteers.
These are findings from national surveys by Christian Ministry Resources (CMR), a tax and legal-advice publisher serving more than 75,000 congregations and 1,000 denominational agencies nationwide.
CMR's annual surveys of about 1,000 churches nationwide have asked about sexual abuse since 1993. They're a remarkable window on a problem that lurked largely in the shadows of public awareness until the Catholic scandals arose.
The surveys suggest that over the past decade, the pace of child-abuse allegations against American churches has averaged 70 a week.
Dr. Shupe suggests the 70 allegations-per-week figure actually could be higher, because underreporting is common. He discovered this in 1998 while going door to door in Dallas-Ft. Worth communities where he asked 1,607 families if they'd experienced abuse from those within their church. Nearly 4 percent said they had been victims of sexual abuse by clergy. Child sexual abuse was part of that, but not broken out, he says.
James Cobble, executive director of CMR, who oversees the survey, says the data show that child sex-abuse happens broadly across all denomination and that clergy aren't the major offenders.
"The Catholics have gotten all the attention from the media, but this problem is even greater with the Protestant churches simply because of their far larger numbers," he says."
W| 7.29.11 @ 1:35PM
Why don't you use your usual name,"Bill S," what are you afraid of? You sure sound like a "genuine Christian" posting this nonsense when the Chinese Communists have killed over 60 million people, and impose forced abortions to achieve a one child per family policy. But you as "Christian" are concerned with Mary and priests. You are not a Christian but a sick bigot.
You have the priorities of a delusional paranoid.
Vlady| 7.29.11 @ 7:14PM
Because he's really Bull S.... That's why. Hey Bull S, let's go get some Catholicks and we can get Margie and Dr. Right and burn them all at the stake... Because the aren't "real" Christians you know.
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 4:45AM
Quit being such a drama queen. The pagan Catholic church is not above criticism. Christians are entitled to point out the Godless and anti-Biblical nature of Romanism, and just because it ruffles your feathers doesn't mean it's wrong, unless you are the center of the universe. But I'm pretty sure you're not, so there's that.
Christians will not be silenced, shut up, shut down, nor intimidated, although the Romanist cult has tried to do precisely that for a very long time, albeit unsuccessfully.
No one said anything about burning Catholics at the stake, so get over your pitiful self and your persecution complex. It is simply quite apparent that you're unable to defend the pseudo-Christian cult that hijacked and subverted Christianity back in the 4th Century, and really just beside yourself on what to do about it. Don't think we Christians don't notice.
By the way, it was actually Catholics who used to burn people at the stake, so don't play the victim card here. That's really old, worn out, transparent and impotent by now, and you won't get by with trying to use it as a cudgel to silence those of us who stand up for the Word of God. And it's an especially repugnant thing to do in light of all of the blood of the martyrs , Jews, and other people who refused to bow the knee to the Popes throughout the centuries. The papacy was a blood sport for a very long time. It's a part of the irrefutable historical record. Deal with THAT. Take ownership of it. Might not feel good at first, but it also might free you from the dark spiritual slavery of the Catholic church.
The truth can set you free!
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 7:54AM
Anti-Catholic Bigot Mister Grady bloviates, "Take ownership of it."
Does This Mean Ya Gotta Take Ownership of The Anti-Semite Protestant Reformation Leader Martin Luther ?
Hmmmm Anti-Catholic Nut Bag ?
"In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine." The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..." He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection, and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 3:56PM
Clint, I'm afraid you'll have to direct your question to a Lutheran or a mainline Protestant. I am neither.
Funny how Catholics always try to misdirect when confronted with the Godlessness of the RCC.
W| 7.30.11 @ 9:16AM
grady,
normal rational people have dealt with these issues and resolved them hundreds of years ago. the only ones still interested in religious warfare are the KKK types like you. find the rock and crawl back under.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 3:33PM
No, they haven't. And you are a product of the same false and abominable teachings that was the very reason your Religion killed us.
They still teach the same things, and it is why you hate Christian, because you believe them.
It never repented, and neither have you.
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 3:59PM
Aww, that's too precious by half. W has invoked the KKK.
Look, W, if the massacres of the RCC didn't shut up the Christians, then lame, school yard name calling certainly isn't going to do it.
Other than that, excellent retort!
W| 7.30.11 @ 4:28PM
Mullah/Grady/quarter/ et al.: you are the same person. multiple personalities/names in addition to delusional/paranoid. Yes, you are KKK, and I said , rational, well adjsted persons, which obiously excludes you.
Vlady| 7.30.11 @ 10:08AM
You must have specially cut white sheets, too. You mean you are a pagan Christian, just like your KKK buddies.
jj| 9.30.11 @ 2:37PM
Mister;
So protestants never burned people at the stake? no witch trials? no catholics burned by protestant tudor rulers? you sure?
TrueBlue| 7.29.11 @ 3:41PM
There is a difference between reverence for Mary, and worship of her. Catholics do not worship Mary, though they do respect and revere her for her role as the mother of Christ. People outside the faith can never seem to get this part straight, mostly because it serves their views than any interest in facts. Anyone you see actually worshipping Mary is NOT a Catholic.
As far as all the sex-scandals surrounding ANY of the Christian clergy, the majority of them are proven false, but those are never reported because it's not good for ratings after all the blasting the networks do up to and during the trials. On top of that, the ones actually proven true ARE punished, but the Churches have never felt the need to make the results public, treating it as a private matter between the Church, the offender, and the victim.
Not to point this out to you, since you obviously have so much hatred built up, but every member of any faith (and even those without faith) is HUMAN. All of them, right up to, and including the Pope. Humans make mistakes, humans sin. Christ died for our sins. It was enough for God, if you claim to be a religious person, how is it not enough for you?
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 9:32PM
If the Catechism is correct, then Roman Catholics *do* worship Mary. For Mary to be what the Catechism claims her to be, she must be God. The gymnastics Roman Catholics do to defend themselves against what the Catechism clearly teaches is much like what Mormons do to defend themselves against the statements of truth about what they teach.
Bill S. is correct about the RCC being a cult. "Catholics" however were not always non-Christians. The problems, however, go back about 1700 years, however, and eventually led to the great schism that split east and west.
Funny about the author's claim of influence against corruption. Some of the most corrupt countries are majority Roman Catholic. The US, although once a majority Protestant country, is shot through with crony capitalism. But then, the influence of Protestant Christianity is fading rapidly in the US.
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 5:15AM
I don't know what's worse: worshipping Mary or lying about it.
Actual Christians respect and love Mary and look to her example (among many others) of obedience and courage.
Catholics, however, worship her. Praying to Mary is worshipping her. Calling her "Queen of Heaven" and "Holy Mary" and "Mother of God" are worshipping her. Erecting statues of her in Catholic churches is worshipping her. Bowing before her statues is worshipping her. Some of the statues even have her wearing a crown and seated in a position equal with God. And may I just ask, which apostolic letters justify the Catholic prominence of Mary?
It is all just warmed over Roman paganism for cryin' out loud. It's idolatry. It's blasphemy. Seriously! And stop lying about it.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 8:02AM
Anti-Catholic writer Loraine Boettner, in his book Roman Catholicism, makes the blanket statement, "God has forbidden the use of images in worship" (281). Yet if people were to "search the scriptures" (cf. John 5:39), they would find the opposite is true. God forbade the worship of statues, but he did not forbid the religious use of statues. Instead, he actually commanded their use in religious contexts!
People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 8:11AM
"Unfortunately, many non-Catholics have been so schooled in hostility toward the Church that they appear unable or unwilling to recognize these distinctions. They confidently (often arrogantly) assert that Catholics "worship" Mary and the saints, and, in so doing, commit idolatry. This is patently false, of course, but the education in anti-Catholic prejudice is so strong that one must patiently explain that Catholics do not worship anyone but God.
The Church is very strict about the fact that latria, adoration—what contemporary English speakers call "worship"—is to be given only to God. "
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 4:09PM
Did God give the RCC a specific directive to build statues of Mary and worship them? Please show me that in the Bible, if you would.
(And don't make me link to all of the pictures showing Catholics around the world doing just that.)
Nick| 8.1.11 @ 9:53AM
Mister Grady,
Catholics don't worship Our Lady, just to get that out of the way. Pictures and anecdotal evidence will not change the Church's teachings on the Virgin Mary.
Also, please show me where in the Sacred Scriptures that God forbade the making of statues?
Vlady| 7.29.11 @ 7:07PM
Where's Dr. Right when you need him to rail against those Damn Catholics again!!!!
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 8:15AM
I think Dr.Reich is in the building using poseur monikers & names.
Ryan| 7.29.11 @ 9:24AM
It may take another hundred years, but the spread of Christianity in China is such that we may see it organically change (as it does at times) rather than an out-and-out revolution. Either that, or it will be an interesting issue between the general populace and China's military (as we have seen before).
Patrick| 7.29.11 @ 4:04PM
Chinese Communism has effortlessly morphed into Fascism. It didn't even have to change its name. Then again, the two only differ in who they blame. Since the Chinese were blaming America and Japan, they can still do so with a nationalist bent.
More likely, there will be an economic implosion after the real wealth can no longer cover up the fraudulent. It is no secret that the books in China are cooked far more thoroughly than Enron's.
Following such a market correction, blame must be given in a crony system. Long knives will be out for everyone in elite circles; imagine if you will what Democrats would do if they don't have a Republican to use as a scapegoat.
In the midst of this infighting, civil unrest will continue, furthering a need to clamp down. Throw in the demographic bomb they have planted on themselves and the surging cancer rates, and you have a disaster.
Christianity may well take hold in China, but I certainly doubt that the time of martyrs is anywhere close to an end.
wukong| 7.29.11 @ 10:06AM
First of all China is not a communist country. Mao killed all the communist during his tenure as Emperor of the Celestial Empire. This is evidenced by the total destruction of Peng de hua and Liu shao chi.
China is like no other nation but is roughly analogous to Nazi Germany. The nation is a continuum of its history from the first Chin emperor only now instead of succession by birth we have a similar succession for a incestuous small cabal of elites with family connections (guan xi) with Mandarins to govern on a wide scale.
PJ| 7.29.11 @ 1:52PM
And what kind of tea are you drinking right now? Never heard of the Communist Party of China?
Mao did not kill all the communists during his regime. He killed most who were not communists. To name just 2, have you ever heard of Zhao Ziyang, Deng Xiaoping, both General Secretaries of the Communist Party of China after Mao Zedong?
Nazi Germany had a socialist or fascist government. Socialism is generally a benign form of communism while fascism is its identical twin. You are indirectly correct; there is very little difference between fascism & communism. Since the 20th century, all if not most authoritative governments incorporated both forms of these philosophies which includes mainland China.
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 9:38PM
Sorry Fascism is not an identical twin to Communism. What Stalin and Mao presided over were Fascist systems centered on them. The true communist dreamers were executed because they were a threat to the head of the regime. Both Stalin and Mao were more brutal than Hitler ever dreamed of being. The systems were basically the same. There was a reason the Nazi flag was red.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 7:36AM
Duuuuuhhhh !
Anti-Catholic Bloviatin' Half-Ass Quartermaster.
Try Authoritarian Totalitarian Systems.
Dixie Pixie| 7.29.11 @ 11:42AM
Catholicism is a cure for governmental corruption?
Since when are the Latin American States a shining beacon of moral and economic excellence.
And when did the Catholic Church raise Edmund Burke, Adam Smith, Friedrich Von Hayek and Milton Friedman to Sainthood.
Have everyone forgotten the Protestant Reformation which was a revolt against the inherent political corruption of Catholicism when it holds temporal power .
How many examples of the inherent philosophical incompatibles between Catholicism and modern economic and political systems do we need to declare Catholicism incapable of providing moral guidance in economic and political matters.
Presupposing Religion is a cure for the economic and political problems of the modern world is the same mistake the Middle East governments made in seeking in Islam a cure for political corruption.
After centuries of a world set ablaze by misapplied religious ideas do we need another example in China.
W| 7.29.11 @ 1:27PM
The protestant reformation in England was because King Henry wanted an annulment so he could marry Anne Boleyn and have sons. I agree no religion should hold temporal power.
Nick| 7.29.11 @ 2:16PM
Dixie Pixie,
"How many examples of the inherent philosophical incompatibles between Catholicism and modern economic and political systems do we need to declare Catholicism incapable of providing moral guidance in economic and political matters."
How about at least one or two, if it's not too much trouble?
Dixie Pixie| 7.29.11 @ 5:31PM
Assuming your question is serious and not in jest, consider these examples.
The Modern Methodology of “Observe, Analyze, Hypothesize and Test” is in direct contradiction to the Catholic doctrine of the infallibility of church teachings.
The Catholic Church held that the unchanging order of the heavens was the basis of the infallibility of church doctrine as that doctrine was a continuation of Heaven itself.
Thus Catholic Doctrine held the church beliefs could not be questioned or changed based on that principal.
It was Galileo who used the recently invented telescope to observe the moons of Jupiter did in fact change thus the heavens did change and because of that correlation, Catholic Doctrine was wrong.
Galileo was convected of heresy and did not have his name cleared until a few decades ago and centuries after he was proved right.
That is the classic case study of how Catholicism conflicts with today.
Another example is the Catholic doctrine That all things and conditions stem from God and as the interpreter of God's will, the Catholic Priesthood speaks with God's authority.
This conflicts with the modern principal that “ All Physical Laws are invariant in all time frames and God has nothing to do with it.”
Since it was found that one could adapt and modify one's conditions far easier using science and technology than beseeching the Priesthood into changing God's will, Modern conditions have greatly improved over the Medieval Period.
Above all else the Catholic Church has always placed as its highest priority the relationship of “Man to God” and the elevation of Catholicism in that relationship.
The economic and political condition of the public has always been irrelevant to Catholicism and so the Church never studied the subjects and thus knows little about it.
Not surprising the Socialists used that fact to bulldoze through the Catholic Church teachings making them irrelevant when not subservient to Socialism.
Consider for example, Nancy Pelosi, The Kennedys, John Kerry and just about any American Catholic politician you would care to name.
Has the Catholic Church forced any politician from office due to corruption?
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 7:59PM
"For the first time in recent memory, the number of Catholic Republicans in the House -- 61 -- nearly equals the number of Catholic Democratic House members, at 65.
In contrast, the Catholic membership in the Senate has remained relatively stable. Among Republicans, four Catholics left and four new Catholic senators were elected, keeping the total at nine. The number of Catholic Democrats in the Senate went from 17 at the start of the 111th Congress to 15 ."
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 8:11PM
The Catholic Austrian Schoolers Vs. The Distrbutists
"In his outstanding history of economic thought, Murray Rothbard went to great lengths to highlight the contributions of the Spanish scholastics, whose critical insights on a variety of crucial economic subjects Catholics might well consider a source of pride. But since these writers came down so often on the side of economic freedom, distributists treat the Spanish scholastics like the family's crazy old uncle that you hope your friends never find out about. This is the real shame, since here were theologians who both set forth moral principles and sought to understand the mechanisms they were discussing. More recent papal encyclicals, such as Pope John Paul II's Centesimus Annus, have likewise begun to reflect an understanding of the role of prices, entrepreneurship, and various other aspects of the market economy, thereby acknowledging what educated people around the world have themselves begun to see."
Nick| 7.29.11 @ 9:18PM
Dixie Pixie,
No, I was making a serious inquiry.
I'm sorry, but, your understanding of both Church history and doctrine is mistaken. We Catholics have a saying: People don't disagree with what the Catholic Church actually teaches, as much as they disagree with what they think the Catholic teaches.
This can also apply to the false history and calumnies that are still repeated about the Church.
"The Modern Methodology of 'Observe, Analyze, Hypothesize and Test' is in direct contradiction to the Catholic doctrine of the infallibility of church teachings."
The scientific method, as we know it, was developed by 13th century Catholic monk, Roger Bacon, to put alchemy's claims to the test.
"The Catholic Church held that the unchanging order of the heavens [...]."
Wrong. The infallibility of Holy Mother Church is based on Christ giving the "keys of the kingdom" to Saint Peter and the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost.
"Galileo was convected of heresy [...]."
Galileo was tried, basically, because he broke his word to Pope Urban VIII, by stating as fact, that the Earth revolved around the Sun; and, because he belittled the Holy Father in his book Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems, which wasn't a very smart thing to do.
Galileo was, in fact, wrong, at least in regard to his mathematics. He claimed the orbits of the planets were circular, because he didn't know about the force of gravity, nor how it worked. Planetary orbits are, as was later discovered, elliptical.
"[...] the Catholic Priesthood speaks with God's authority."
No, the Magisterium of the Catholic Church speaks with God's authority.
"Since it was found that one could adapt and modify one's conditions far easier using science and technology than beseeching the Priesthood into changing God's will, Modern conditions have greatly improved over the Medieval Period."
It was a Catholic priest, Monseigneur Georges Lemaître, who gave us the theory known as The Big Bang.
"The economic and political condition of the public has always been irrelevant to Catholicism and so the Church never studied the subjects and thus knows little about it."
Is this assertion in jest? Are you serious? Where do you think the Common Law came from? It was the Catholic Church that Christianized the ancient Roman Law tradition, of which our Constitution is a direct descendant.
"Consider for example, Nancy Pelosi, The Kennedys, John Kerry [...]."
Liberals who claim to be Catholic are CINOs, Catholic In Name Only. They do not live their Faith, nor assent to the Church's teachings.
I hope this clears up these false impressions about the Catholic Church.
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 9:43PM
Many of us have actually studied the primary documents of the RCC. I have a copy of the catechism, for example, and am quite well aware of the the RCC actually teaches its own people. To say that the above is evasive would be charitable.
Nick| 7.29.11 @ 11:34PM
Quartermaster,
I'm glad that you do. Then you should know that what I stated is the truth.
I don't see how I evaded anything that Dixie Pixie wrote. I rebutted it paragraph by paragraph.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 8:18AM
Maybe You're Dr.Reich, Quartermaster.
Hmmmm Boy ?
Dixie Pixie| 7.29.11 @ 10:17PM
Greetings Nick
An excellence and elegant reply.
I admit I am not a religious scholar nor an expert in religious matters.
Hopefully you are.
Let me take this opportunity to restate my debate position without going through a line by line rebuttal.
The question posed by the author was Catholicism a cure for what ails the Chinese?
My position is it is not.
Catholicism by its internal structure and beliefs does not automatically correct for political corruption.
Catholicism by design is a top-down structure in which authority flows from the top to the bottom.
Historically such structures aid political corruption as the rank above can abuse their position without fear of a corrective action from below.
China on the other hand has the same problem but the below ranks can use their economic leverage to influence the Communist Party, a condition not present in Catholicism.
It is becoming clearer that the Chinese have developed a form of Social Mercantile Capitalism far superior to both Catholic economic thought or American Capitalism.
Maybe we should be learning from the Chinese Economic Theory instead Catholicism.
Nick| 7.30.11 @ 12:01AM
Hello, again, Dixie Pixie.
And thank you for the kind words.
I am no scholar, religious, or otherwise. But, may I assume that you have no other "examples of the inherent philosophical incompatibles between Catholicism and modern economic and political systems" that would "declare Catholicism incapable of providing moral guidance in economic and political matters"?
Also, the Catholic Church is not a political structure. Being a Christian is a way of life.
Political systems are made-up of men. Following the teachings of Christ will inform the conscience of the men who make-up a political system. This is what helped make America a great country. And, this is how "Catholicism" could improve China's problem with corruption.
Organizational systems, be they governmental, educational, or religious, are not necessarily corrupt, in and of themselves. It is man's fallen nature and his concupiscence that allow corruption to take root and flourish.
In other words, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people."
p.s. I try to stay away from the term capitalist, as it is a Marxist term. I prefer to use the more accurate phrase free market. The Chinese system is far from a free market. But, then again, so is ours, thanks to liberals.
God Bless!
Dixie Pixie| 7.30.11 @ 3:02AM
Greetings again Nick.
It is so pleasant to have a peaceful debate without the usual catcalling and scratching that is common on the TAS threads.
I have a few friends and family working the Evangelical circuit down in Mexico so the “Inherent philosophical incompatibles of Catholicism” is a matter of some debate with no resolution.
That is why I went in another direction in the above post.
Personally, I have never liked the concept that Mankind has permanently fallen from Gods Grace.
That philosophic direction can only lead to the only point of salvation is by the Catholic Priesthood, which is a point the Baptist Philosophy will not concede to Catholic Philosophy.
The Baptists believe Mankind has a more personal relationship with God in which a person has far greater control over his or her life than is common in Catholic societies.
In such, a person has numerous options to salvation, through which some paths lead to a more successful economic life.
In my below post to “W” I hint that a purely religious framework is undesirable in a political system unless one would go as far as the Muslims have done.
Such a framework has never economically worked out well for anyone.
Let me go further on my point that Catholicism is not the solution that the Chinese are seeking and the presumption they want such an solution will only irate them.
W| 7.30.11 @ 2:30PM
"Let me go further on my point that Catholicism is not the solution that the Chinese are seeking and the presumption they want such an solution will only irate them."
How do you know what the Chinese are seeking, have you polled the one billion people there?
The Chinese Communist government has killed between 50-60 million of its own people, in addition to killing Americans during the Korean War, supplying the Vietnamese Communists during the Vietnam war thus killing more Americans, instituting forced abortions for a one child per family policy which I assume offends you as a Baptist, and you are concerned that Catholics may "irritate" them?
Dixie Pixie| 7.30.11 @ 6:18PM
Greetings W
The Chinese have been very vocal about their centuries of foreign denomination and exploitation.
The Chinese government is all too aware that Religion played a major role in consolidating that foreign control.
The first paragraph of the article summed it up nicely.
The Catholic Church longstanding policy is to retain control of the Church in China in all matters of faith.
The Chinese, having within living memory, has experiences of havoc and abuse that an foreign entity with autonomy can create and therefor wants some degree of control of Chinese Catholicism.
In short, for the Catholic Church, it is the Henry the Eight situation all over again.
My comment, “it is best not to irritate the Chinese government”, is in recognition that China will soon become the 1st rank economic power.
Economic power of that magnitude quickly becomes political power of the same magnitude.
It is therefor not a good idea to keep reminding China of her recent history of abuse and exploitation by foreign powers by poking an open wound.
Upon acquiring Great Power Status, Nations naturally have a yen for major payback for those who have abused them in the past.
Why court unnecessary trouble in a Beijing / Vatican spat?
PS....W...As a rule of thumb it is not a good idea not to use the “Bloody Shirt” ploy against Southerners as most Southern Families send members of each generation into the military as a duty and Tradition.
My family lost an uncle in the Korea War and I have a sister in law serving in Afghanistan.
I also have served in the US Army during the Baader-Meinhof campaign and was two walls away from one of their bombings as well as losing friends and a Post Commanding General.
As you had no way of knowing this, you can not be held accountable for your accidental verbiage.
Just keep this factoid in mind next time when you are using the Bloody Shirt Ploy.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:07PM
That is not the boody shirt ploy, as you should know. Read my post again. Given the Chinese Commies history, we should not appease them. And the Catholic Church does not have political leaders appoint bishops and cardinals. That is the essennce of separation of church and state. If the Chinese do not like it, so what.
Every state in the country sends members to the military, and thank you for your service
W| 7.31.11 @ 12:42PM
Dixie, what was the army's campaign agaisnt the Baader Meinhoff gang. I know they were a terrorist gang Germany during the 1970's, along with the Red Brigades in Italy, and of own Billy Ayrers/Bernie Dohrin of the SDS, but I dont recall what we did military wise. would appreciate the history
Nick| 7.30.11 @ 11:47PM
Yes, Dixie Pixie, it is nice to debate deeply held beliefs in a calm and charitable manner.
As a Catholic, we will have to agree to disagree. I believe that the fact this country was founded by practicing Christians is what made it prosper so fast, and what made it great.
The Constitution was not a perfect document. It did not prohibit slavery, after all. But, even if it had, men would still have found away to subjugate their fellow citizens. As they are today.
From a Catholic point of view, the only way for the Constitution to have been perfect would have been to have had an amendment that read something like this: All laws which deal with human rights must conform to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
This would comply fully with the Catholic notion of subsidiarity, while protecting individual rights to life, liberty, and conscience. But, this will never happen.
So, I believe that the more a nation's laws conform to the Natural Law, i.e., God's Law, the more free a nation becomes. This does not mean I want a theocracy, or, the Catholic Church to run countries.
The Church actually learned this lesson early on. They were more than willing to leave the powers that were rightly the purview of secular authority to kings and princes, while exercising their authority over all things theological. This kept the kings from trying to declare dogma from their thrones.
Now, admittedly, the Church had to learn this lesson over and over again, as clerics kept sticking their noses into the affairs of kings. But, to be fair, kings kept sticking their noses into the affairs of the church.
I see your point on the Chinese being suspicious of a foreign power's interference. But, because of the decades of government atheism, their only hope to combat corruption is to let people practice their religion the way they wish and out in the open.
The Russians have been dealing with the same problem since the break-up of the Soviet Union. It's hard to undo decades of atheism, but, not impossible.
God Bless!
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 5:30AM
I do get really, really tired of Catholics acting as if no one knows what the Roman church teaches. Ya know, after 1700+ years of the existence of the RCC, we've got you down quite well.
And golly, but would you please just go read the Bible. Peter was the apostle to the circumcised, while Paul, not Peter, was the apostle to the uncircumcised - and there was no apostolic succession. The Bible is the Christian's complete reference of faith.
It is astonishing that the RCC tries to draw a straight line from Matthew 16:18 - 19 to their existence.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 8:44AM
Thus Peter declared, "Repent, and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children" (Acts 2:38–39).
Baptism is the Christian equivalent of circumcision, or "the circumcision of Christ": "In him you were also circumcised with . . . the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (Col. 2:11–12). Thus, like circumcision, baptism can be given to children as well as adults. The difference is that circumcision was powerless to save (Gal. 5:6, 6:15), but "[b]aptism . . . now saves you" (1 Pet. 3:21).
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 1:47PM
So when are you going to repent?
Oh, and your twisting of the Words of God, as usual is just so wrong.
You've added your own Catholic interpretation in there:
"Thus, like circumcision, baptism can be given to children as well as adults. The difference is that circumcision was powerless to save."
That part you made up~ it isn't in the Bible. It's part of your cult's false doctrine.
You quote Acts 2:38 & 39. And yet you still twist.
Can an infant or very young child repent?
You know the answer.
No, they have no need to, the command was given to adults.
Baptizing infants and young children is so perverse~ but that's what your cult is.
Infant baptism is a slap in the face to Jesus, who died for those babies and children.
He says:
"but Jesus said, "Let the children come to Me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of Heaven." Mt. 19:14.
Well, that is what Catholicism does to them. It hinders them coming to Christ. It teaches them that they're already saved. Therefore they grow up thinking they have no need for repentance in the future, because, they were baptized.
Catholicism teaches that baptism saves, but GOD teaches us that we must repent, and then be baptized.
GOD also teaches us that we must be born anew~ or as the original Greek says, regenerated from above.
Jn. 3:3:
"Jesus answered and said to Him, Truly,
truly, I say to you, If one is not generated
from above, he is not able to see the Kingdom
of God."
Sadly, and it's an utter abomination to God~ the Catholic church doesn't even teach this!
This is so that they can claim that salvation is through the "church".
They make themselves Lord of all. Just as they've done from the very beginning, and has never repented.
This is why the Papacy tortured and killed millions upon millions of Bible believing Christians~ because like me, they REFUSE to submit to their false doctrines. They played God and still do.
The Book Martys Mirror is full of this history, and has the anabaptists who were slaughtered~MEN WOMEN AND CHILDREN~ because they refused to bow their knees to the false teaching that you just promoted.
You are EXACTLY like the Papal Inquisitors of old.
And YOU will never shut me up.
I hope you repent and believe in the Words of God.
Vlady| 8.3.11 @ 12:06PM
"So when are you going to repent?"
I'll repent when you stop wearing white sheets and burning crosses and calling people names...
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 4:31PM
And yet, in the context of Peter being the apostle to the circumcised, and Paul being the apostle to the uncircumcised, the original Biblical text is clearly teaching that Peter was the apostle to the ethnic Jews, while Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.
The RCC is built upon a lie, and there is nothing to do about it but repent. There is no Biblical nor historical support for Peter being pope. For him acting as pope. For him being exalted as pope. None. Nor for apostolic succession.
The RCC began with Constantine, and the papacy and RCC as we know it emerged over the first few hundred years after Constantine's pseudo conversion.
It's really bizarre watching the circuitous rationalizations that Catholics try to go through to justify their religion.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 6:21PM
I've listed links here showing hundreds of the false doctrines~ but they just come back with more vileness.
They are in a cult with a cult mentality.
If they were into the truth, and honest, they would flee to Christ.
They would be shocked and appalled at the lies they've been taught.
The word Pope isn't in the Bible.
God HATES church hierarchy.
He HATES solemn assemblies.
He doesn't want us burning incense and praying to the dead. Praying to the dead is AGAINST His will.
All these things are clearly spelled out in the Bible~and yes~ the WHOLE Bible, not just the New Testament. The God of the Old Testament is the same as the God of the New Covenant.
He still hates the same things.
All of the false doctrines of Catholicism are for one purpose and one purpose only:
To keep the flock in the church. To have power over them, to get their money, their minds and their hearts.
They set themselves up to be God. Babylon~ false Religion.
Jesus does not require all of the nonsensical and ridiculous and unbiblical things that they teach.
Catholicism isn't Christianity.
Religion is man's ideas on how to reach God. Like at the tower of Babel, they tried reaching Heaven on their own strength.
God's way is through Jesus, and by His Grace, and a relationship with Him through Christ.
Jesus is the ONLY Mediator between God and Man.
"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time." 2 Tim. 2:5 & 6.
If only they would care enough to see.
Vlady| 8.10.11 @ 2:16PM
"I have shown..." The only thing you have shown is that you are an arrogant ignorant twit.
Though I am a Jew, why should I accept your interpretation of the Bible versus anyone else's interpretation? Who gave you the authority to interpret the Bible for anyone else?
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 1:01AM
Mister Grady,
I'm sorry you feel this way. But, I'm not "acting." As you can plainly see, Dixie Pixie admitted that he was no "religious scholar" and did not refute anything that I wrote about the Catholic Church.
I notice you have not refuted anything I wrote in rebuttal to Dixie Pixie, either. Also, I do read the Sacred Scriptures. Not as often as I should, but, these discussions sure help with this bad habit of mine.
Speaking of which, I am inferring from your statement that you think that Saint Peter had no jurisdiction over the Gentiles. This is not what Galatians 2 is saying.
The first recorded act of a Gentile being baptized is when Peter baptizes Cornelius and his family, in Acts 10. This is right after Peter has the vision about clean and unclean food, which meant that there were no longer Jew and Gentile, in the eyes of God.
Also, Saint Paul would preach the Good News to the Jews first, in the synagogue, before going to the Gentiles. So, both Peter and Paul preached to Jew and Gentile, as all the Apostles did.
It was in chapter 16 of Saint Matthew's Gospel that Christ made Simon the Kephas (rock in Aramaic) that He would build His church upon. I'm sure Peter was astonished most of all!
God Bless!
W| 7.29.11 @ 10:19PM
"Has the Catholic Church forced any politician from office due to corruption?"
Dixie, this may come as a surprise to you, but we do not want any church or religion to force any politician from office. That is why we have elections and separation of church and state.
Dixie Pixie| 7.29.11 @ 10:46PM
W....I agree with your position.
I was just using the analogy as a debating tactic as the answer was a obvious NO.
Catholicism is not a cure for political corruption as no catholic politician has been forced from office by the church because of it.
The fact that no one wants to do so for other reasons only reenforces the point.
No church is a cure for political corruption because religion always crosses the line into forcing its beliefs into the political structure.
W| 7.30.11 @ 9:22AM
"Catholicism is not a cure for political corruption as no catholic politician has been forced from office by the church because of it"
Dixie, can you name a Baptist that was forced from office because of corruption by the Baptists? Hint: "I did not have sexual relations with that woman." another hint, "That depends on what the definition of 'is' is."
Dixie Pixie| 7.30.11 @ 7:08PM
….LOL.....W
I plead “Charles Rangel” your Honor.
Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Baker are the most notable case studies in a Church forcing out a leader due to corruption.
Most Churches can not afford to have any of its leadership acting in any other way then in the highest of moral standards, so are quick to expel them when they fall from grace.
Bill Clinton held on to office because the Democrats united as one to save him, not because he was innocence of corruption charges.
If the character witness for Bill Clinton is Larry Flint there is definitely corruption involved.
Unfortunately the Senate did not want to see it.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:11PM
But Dixie, the two Jimmies were not politicians, they did not hold public office. You are correct about Slick Willie.
Have a pleasant remainder of the weekend, go to go.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:13PM
p.s. Dixie, I saw Cholly Rangel on tv this week saying we need to raise taxes to cover the deficit!!! Balls, but no shame.
Patrick| 7.29.11 @ 4:52PM
Latin America was once a rising economic power, beginning to rival in economic dominance even Europe. During the early 1900's, Argentina had risen to one of the top ten economies in the world.
If you wish to blame the collapse and fall of such prosperous nations, you need look no further than the nearest lefty academic. Their ideas became vogue, their propaganda undercut Catholicism as a form of vestigial exploitation by Spain, and the Church has been routinely stymied in its attempts to reform malicious acts of governmental power. Throw in the upheavals of Vatican II, wholesale defection of the Jesuit order, Liberation Theology, and America's welfare-fueled drug money, and you get today's Latin America.
Blaming Catholicism itself upon Latin America's economic woes is like blaming Anglicanism for British binge drinking or Lutheranism for German scat porn.
If there is one economic difference in morals between a principled capitalist and a Catholic is the matter of usury. The word usury is often unknown to the vast majority of Catholics, and its particulars in prohibition are likely unknown to the majority of priests, and perhaps even bishops. There are very precise differences between charging interest upon a secured loan versus the increase gained from selling a stock at a higher price than originally purchased.
As for moral guidance, I should remind you that history records the exceptions, as the status quo is always assumed and often boring. That there is outrage at these breaks with morality suggests that the larger body was properly scandalized by the behavior. Such cannot be said for the quasi-religion that Democrats practice.
Now as for the equating of Islam with Christianity, you are truly showing exactly how great an ignorant boor you truly are. The surge in Islam's stringent enforcement of Sharia and the growing tide of militant fundamentalism has more to do with a post-colonial inferiority complex mixed with easy money in crude oil, and the poisonous rhetoric of blame acquired by their exposure to the Soviet and Nazi propaganda. There are, of course, teachings in Islam that were taken from Christianity and Judaism, but that which has not come from these sources is a mix of Bedouin sayings and the rantings of a cross-dressing, necrophiliac, pedophiliac, bisexual, deviant with a lust for killing (hint: their "prophet", Muhammad)
I am willing to be pleasant company or even spirited debate with an atheist, but I have no patience for such tripe foisted upon me by someone so intellectually lazy as you clearly are.
Dixie Pixie| 7.29.11 @ 7:24PM
Greetings Patrick.
I hope this day sees you well.
The case for the use of religion as a corrective for political corruption is that God would be the corrective function, such that God would send his Archangels to smite the offending politicians with a fiery sword.
The Secret Service, who has some experience in protecting politicians of all types, has never considered sword bearing Archangels or vengeful Gods to be a problem.
Patrick... The economic experiment comparing which religious base aids or retards economic growth and operation has been run since Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation.
The results are in and the Chinese used those results to go from near the bottom of the pack to 2nd place and will knock America from 1st place to 2nd place in a decade.
We need to learn from the Chinese not Catholicism.
If you wish to have a debate on why and how various religious doctrine aids or retards economic and political development and operation, I have no objection.
The debate would be a worthy one as it would illuminate, enhance and sharpen Conservative ideas.
And we may be so lucky as to break new ground and come up with new ideas and concepts.
PS....I have only considered myself a small mischievous spirit hence the name / handle.
No one has ever considered me to be an intellectual however lazy.
PS2.... The Protestants especially the Baptists have not worked so long and hard to push the Socialists out of the public and social sectors as to replace them with Catholicism.
Expect the Baptists to push back with kind words logic and humor.
So let us keep it light and clean.
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 8:24PM
Dixie Pixie Posts,
"The economic experiment comparing which religious base aids or retards economic growth and operation has been run since Martin Luther started the Protestant Reformation."
Clint Rebuts:" Ya Mean This Bigot Martin Luther."
"Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these "poisonous envenomed worms" would be forced into labour or expelled "for all time"
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 9:50PM
Clint, Your argument is called the Tu Quoque fallacy. A bit of research on how the RCC and its minions treated Jews is in order. Jews were chased from one country to another by the RCC, so to claim the RCC is a bunch of angels on the matter is the height of stupidity and hypocrisy.
On the whole, those countries that opened up to the Protestant reformation advanced further and faster than those that were closed to it either by the RCC or the national orthodox churches. Trying to appeal to the inconsistencies of Martin Luther, or John Calvin does nothing for your argument.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 8:59AM
No more than Your Non sequitur logical fallacies Pseudo-Intellect Bloviatin' Half-Ass.
The Anti-Semite Martin Luther Was A Leader of The Protestant Reformation.
"In 1543 Luther published On the Jews and Their Lies in which he says that the Jews are a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth."They are full of the "devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine." The synagogue was a "defiled bride, yes, an incorrigible whore and an evil slut ..." He argues that their synagogues and schools be set on fire, their prayer books destroyed, rabbis forbidden to preach, homes razed, and property and money confiscated. They should be shown no mercy or kindness,[16] afforded no legal protection, and these "poisonous envenomed worms" should be drafted into forced labor or expelled for all time. He also seems to advocate their murder, writing "[w]e are at fault in not slaying them."
Dixie Pixie| 7.29.11 @ 10:33PM
Greetings Clint.
You totally missed my point.
I was using Martin Luther as a starting point metric to show that all the civilizations under discussion were starting from the same relative levels and the Protestant countries moved futher and faster up the economic ladder than all other countries and civilizations.
The Chinese deduced those policies and economic mechanisms that lead to the rise of Protestant Capitalism and duplicated them to a spectacular economic success.
Catholicism is not a cure for the Chinese but is a economic dead weight and that has be proven by the economic historical record.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 9:06AM
Keynesian Economics ain't a cure for China either Pixie Dust.
China's Artificial Keynesian Big Government Propping Up of Their Market Is Gonna Blow Up On Them, While Catholic Embrace of Austrian School Economics Will Lead The United States Out Of Obamiam Keynesian Recessionary Hell.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 9:16AM
"China’s economy is overheating now, but, over time, its current overinvestment will prove deflationary both domestically and globally. Once increasing fixed investment becomes impossible – most likely after 2013 – China is poised for a sharp slowdown. Instead of focusing on securing a soft landing today, Chinese policymakers should be worrying about the brick wall that economic growth may hit in the second half of the quinquennium….The problem, of course, is that no country can be productive enough to reinvest 50% of GDP in new capital stock without eventually facing immense overcapacity and a staggering non-performing loan problem. China is rife with overinvestment in physical capital, infrastructure, and property. To a visitor, this is evident in sleek but empty airports and bullet trains (which will reduce the need for the 45 planned airports), highways to nowhere, thousands of colossal new central and provincial government buildings, ghost towns, and brand-new aluminum smelters kept closed to prevent global prices from plunging."
Sheila| 7.29.11 @ 1:26PM
As is to be expected from an article at TAS, the unmentioned elephant in the room is culture, which is a product of race. Corruption and bribery and nepotism are part and parcel of Chinese culture and extended family/clan society. The vast majority of Chinese businesses in the U.S. contribute little or nothing to the economy. They are usually cash-based, where a great deal of the income can be hidden or taken under the table. Most Chinese here employ family members first, then extended clan members. Confucian-based "ethics" are vastly different than Christian-based Western morals, and there's a reason why our standards and "rule of law" originated in Western Europe.
Assimilation means more than wearing jeans and being familiar with Hollywood's effluvium. About 85% of the Asian-owned homes here have red doors (feng shui) and the Chinese-only churches often have red roofs and are situated in an "auspicious" direction. Check out Chinese-driven cars - every last one will have a good-luck charm (pillow/tassel combo with Chinese idiogram on it) hanging from the rear-view mirror. Just as African "christianity" consists of perhaps half animism, Chinese "christianity" contains a substantial portion of paganism and ancestor worship.
Patrick| 7.29.11 @ 4:56PM
Milage may vary.
Patrick| 7.29.11 @ 4:59PM
Mileage that is.
W| 7.30.11 @ 9:25AM
What is your source for this opinion of the Chinese? All Asians, especially Chinese, Korean, and Indians have added greatly to our country. The computer and its programs you are using would not exist but for the Indians.
RCV| 7.29.11 @ 1:33PM
Ah, the in-house white-nationalist pipes up and spews her racist filth once again.
Sheila's just a little jealous at how well all those degenerate Asians are doing in school.
Patrick| 7.29.11 @ 4:58PM
It's bound to happen since nothing is moderated here. You get crazies wherever you go in the internet. Even so, it's best not to feed the trolls.
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 9:52PM
Such as RCV.
Reprobate Charlatan Vomitus| 7.29.11 @ 10:10PM
I don't bother with silly...aw phooey...you beat me to it matterz.
W| 7.30.11 @ 9:27AM
Q, RCV, unlike you, is intelligent, a gentleman, and not a bigot.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 1:50PM
You sir or madame are an anti-Christian bigot.
W| 7.30.11 @ 2:07PM
Mullah Marg, please consider this as a continuing reply so I do not have to waste time:
You are not a Christian. You have the mentality of radical muslim that believes your "religion" is the only true one. You are not different than any other person that belives his is the only true religion. You cannot accept others' religion. A true christian would not be a narrow minded,intolerant bigot like you. Rational, well adjusted, intelligent people have resolved the religious wars hundreds of years ago and do not question others' religious beliefs unless those beliefs cause terrorism like the radical muslims. Only bigots like you, and your KKK possee, continue to stoke the fires.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 3:24PM
W~
You are a liar.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 3:28PM
p.s. "W":
The Word of God says this:
"Enter by the narrow Gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many." Mt. 7:13.
"Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." Jn. 14:6.
If you were a Christian, you'd be proclaiming this Narrow Way through Christ instead of attacking anyone with vile hatred that defends His Holy Word.
I guess Jesus is too narrow minded for you, too. since He says that He is the only Way to Heaven.
The Pope can't save you from your sins, he's living a lie~ and so are you.
W| 7.30.11 @ 4:31PM
You need serious psychiatric care. Delusional, Paranoid, Obsessive.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 6:07PM
You're projecting again:
You obsessively lie and jump on my posts with vile and accusatory insults, are delusional in that you cannot bear to hear the truth but choose to believe a lie instead.
But I won't say you need a shrink~ what you need to do is repent!
And I stand on His Word~ so..."W" whoever you are~ a jealous, petty liar~ it really isn't ME you're despising, it's Him.
"He who is of God hears the Words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." Jn. 8:47.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:03AM
Guess it takes one to know one...
Sheila| 7.29.11 @ 1:37PM
It's truly amazing, RCV, just how much your "shaming" language (and that of Margie, and others here) resembles the "racisthaterhomophobeantisemite" leftist rants at places like the Huffington Post. There is left-liberal PC and right-liberal PC, and then there is freedom of thought and speech. You've made your preference clear numerous times; I continue to drop by here occasionally in the hope that a small percentage might take the perilous plunge into rational thinking free of PC strictures.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 8:15PM
Daaaahling,
Being free of PC doesn't mean you're allowed to be openly racist. If you really believe we ought to accept your White Nationalism, you're dead wrong.
You can't be Christians and racist, it's a lie.
You don't like me because I tell you the truth, just the same that others can't stand it that I stand on the Word of God, and not Religion.
Why do you reject the love of God for some, according to their Race?
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:04AM
BUT, you can be a "Christian" and still be a big time bigot... Margie Dear proves this everyday, in everyway, in every post....
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 12:47AM
Sheila complains about not having the debate but runs when confronted.
Sheila,
you've said yourself you're a White Nationalist, and you do base your way of being on Race.
Oh, never mind.
I give up!
Sheila| 7.29.11 @ 1:40PM
Oh, and lest I forget - perhaps you'd consider addressing my arguments and offering a factual rebuttal (if you can find and document one) rather than flinging ad hominems.
Nick| 7.29.11 @ 2:12PM
Sheila,
Christ said, "Love your enemies." And, "Love your neighbor as yourself."
We are ALL children of God. And He makes us all unique.
Race and culture are not predictive of how individuals will act. The nazis tried to prove that they were, and failed. Try and join the 21st century, okay?
RCV| 7.29.11 @ 2:24PM
Thanks, Nick, for that calm and well-articulated response. There are few non-Western European Christians whom Sheila does not denigrate as a group -- Jews, Blacks, Asians.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 3:56PM
I am indeed an enemy of Sheila's~ I denounce racism.
Sheila is an enemy of the Cross of Christ.
Vlady| 7.29.11 @ 7:16PM
Unless they are Black Catholicks... Right? Tell the truth Dear Margerie... You have white sheets cut just right to make a nice collar right under the hood you wear... Tell the truth now.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 7:54PM
Have you been drinking with the other White Nationalist?
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 5:41AM
Can we all just finally recognize that Vlady's precious feelings have been hurt and realize that that painful fact should automatically shut down everyone who stands up for the Word of God rather than the words of dead popes? Vlady is entitled.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 1:52PM
You are a refreshment! It's nice not being alone amongst the cult members.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:09AM
Oh Margie dear, you are never alone. You are a cult of your own making. It will be only a matter of time before you turn your pernicious rants on us Jews, after you have finished off all the Catholicks.
I was "Christians" like you who made their own religion based on their own authority. And gave us the Holocaust.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:06AM
I don't have any feelings anymore. They were removed in Iraq.
When you start standing up for the Word of God, let us all know. Right now you are standing up for your interpretation of the Word of God. For a Jew like me, that's a little too rich. Pardon the pun.
Nick| 7.30.11 @ 12:40AM
Thanks, RCV.
I'm well aware of Sheila's dearth of love for her neighbors. I wish I could put her in the role of Vic Morrow, the bigot, in the Twilight Zone movie. (And, I don't mean that she should have a helicopter decapitate her!)
If white people could experience racism from minorities, as I have on a few occasions, they would look at their brothers from a different mother in a different light, I'm sure.
They might treat them as individuals, instead of pre-judging them based on the group to which they belong.
RCV| 7.30.11 @ 10:41AM
Thanks, Nick, And thanks always for your thoughtful and respectful discussions on faith and theology. They're a pleasure to read.
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 1:05AM
RCV,
You are very welcome.
Thank you for reciprocating.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 5:57PM
No, Nick. We're not all children of God.
That's what Catholicism teaches you.
The Bible (God's own Words), says differently.
He says that one must BECOME a child of God by believing in and receiving Christ:
"But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, He gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn. 1:12 & 13.
"Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'" Jn. 3:7.
That is Jesus speaking, not me.
You're heart's in the right place, but not your doctrine. :^).
Vlady| 7.29.11 @ 7:18PM
"No, Nick. We're not all children of God.
That's what Catholicism teaches you.
The Bible (God's own Words), says differently."
Oh boy ain't that the God's honest truth. Only true damn thing Margie dearest has ever said...
Let's go get them Damn Catholicks now! Onward with the Margie, Bull S, and Dr. Mengele.... I mean Dr. Right!!!
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 7:53PM
"Let's go get them Damn Catholicks now! Onward with the Margie, Bull S, and Dr. Mengele.... I mean Dr. Right!!!"
No, actually Vlady, that's what the Papacy did to my brethren for centuries.
It's history, you know.
Remember what they say~ "Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it”.
The point is that the Catholic church sets itself up as God. If it ever repented of that, it could call itself a Christian church.
With regards the article, why should they get treated special?
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 5:43AM
Vlady! Master of the hackneyed ad hominem.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 1:58PM
I think it's probably Clint, which may be one of the authors here, but I'm not sure. He takes many names because he has no conscience yet goes around accusing everyone else doing same, slandering them to bits.
I was once banned then allowed back? Why? Because I called one of these supercilious hacks a punk or some such thing.
Yet this "Clint" person is permitted to spill his bilge 24/7.
Christians get warned for defending themselves, or more importantly for defending the gospel~ but the Catholics are permitted to verbally abuse constantly.
Even some of the so-called Christians here have personally attacked and sent e mails to me calling me a Pharisee and hater, et al!!
Catholics need to know the truth, they need to know that they are members of a huge, anti-Christ Religion.
They need to know that only Jesus saves, not Religion.
Nick| 7.30.11 @ 12:30AM
Margie,
We are all created in the image and likeness of God. This makes all of us His children. He loves all of us, even when we reject Him. He hates our sinful acts, but, continues to love us. No matter what we do. He is our Father.
Just as parents continue to love their children, even when they do wrong.
It is we who reject Him. It is when we consciously reject Him that we put our souls in danger of damnation. But, God's Mercy is always there for us.
As Christ told us, the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. (See Mark 3:29; Matthew 12:32; Luke 12:10)
These sins are usually listed as six, from the Catholic Encyclopedia (1917): Despair, presumption, impenitence or a fixed determination not to repent, obstinacy in sin, resisting the known truth, and envy of another's spiritual welfare.
This is what I meant when I wrote that we are all children of God.
God Bless!
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 1:01AM
Well Nick,
"We are all created in the image and likeness of God. This makes all of us His children."
You are wrong. Catholicism may teach you that, but like most of their doctrines, it is not biblical!
The Bible as I quoted states that we must "become" His children. That is clear, as He says so point blank:
"But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, He gave power to become children of God;
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn. 1:12 & 13.
You see? Here is another example of how Catholicism teaches outside of what God actually tells us.
It proves the difference between Christianity and Catholicism.
Christians obey the Words of God, while Catholics obey the Popes.
"He who does not love Me does not keep My Words; and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." Jn. 14:24.
This is Jesus speaking, above. He has standards. It is these standards that my brethren were tortured and killed for standing on, by your Religion.
I have the fear of God in me, Nick, by His amazing Grace. I tremble at His Word.. I don't say what I say from hate, but from my love for His Truth.
God bless you.
It's true we are all created in His likeness, but if you know your Bible you know that it says all have fallen short of his glory, and have sinned.
Forgiveness has to be asked for. It isn't attained by us simply existing.
Nick| 7.30.11 @ 2:17AM
Margie,
You are referring to becoming a Christian, and I am referring to the fact that we are God's children because He created all of us, as our Father, in His image and likeness.
I am not disagreeing with what you wrote. But, I was not talking about becoming a follower of Christ. I was talking about the inherent dignity all men deserve as creations of God. No matter what vile utterances they make, e.g., Sheila.
This is why all human beings, regardless of any wrongdoings they have committed, have God-given rights, and deserve to be treated with love (charity) and respect. It is extremely hard to love Charlie Manson, but we must, according to Christ.
I am a Christian, and I believe the Word of God, as well as the Pope. My "Religion" didn't kill or torture anyone. People did. Under the power of the secular authority.
I know you don't write what you do from hate. You just misunderstand what the Church teaches, or, don't know all the facts about Her history. That's what I'm here for, to clear up these misunderstandings. I know I'm not the best witness for the Church, but, I'm doing my best.
God Bless!
p.s. I didn't mean to imply that sinners do not need to repent and ask for forgiveness, or, that forgiveness is implied. It most assuredly is not. (I figured this was implied when I mentioned sinning against the Holy Spirit.) Parents continue to love their children, when they do wrong, even when they don't ask to be forgiven. The parents might not have anything to do with them, but, if they come back, and repent, the just parent will forgive. And rejoice. Just as Christ would.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:05PM
Sorry, Nick.
Jesus says we must become a child of God, therefore we are not, unless we consciously choose to be.
I quoted the verses, and everyone has eyes to see. Well, not everyone.
Just those who want to see~ see what His Word says.
And I do not misunderstand anything about what Catholicism teaches.
It is an utterly deceitful false Religion that twists the Scriptures, and has NEVER repented.
And the Pope doesn't believe the Word of God. He holds himself up AS the Word of God. If he believed the Word of God, he'd repent of being the Pope!!
Christianity means you're a follower of Christ. If you're a follower of Christ, you obey His Words.
Catholicism does not obey His Words.
And you can't serve two Masters. It's either the Word of God~ or the Pope!
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 2:54AM
Margie.
Christ said that God is our Father:
"But go to my brethren and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and to your God." John 20:17
Isaiah says that God is our Father:
"For you are our father, and Abraham has not known us, and Israel has been ignorant of us: you, O Lord, are our father, our redeemer, from everlasting is your name.:
If God is our Father, doesn't that make us His children?
Again, I do not disagree with you, or, the Word of God, as stated in John 1: 12-13. Because that verse is referring to Christians: "But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name [...]."
I was referring to ALL the people of the world, who are created by God, their Father, making them His children.
Also, I don't even know if calling all people the children of God is a teaching of the Catholic Church. I tried to look it up, but, couldn't find anything.
I just figured it was common knowledge, since we are all called by God to be saved (cf 1 Timothy 2:4). And, because of the Scriptures, from which I quoted, above.
The current Pope has no need to repent. Pope John Paul II, back in March of 2000, did ask forgiveness for the sins committed by Catholics over the past 2,000 years.
The Holy Father did not include the teachings of the Church in his confession. As they are the teachings of Christ, protected from error by the Holy Spirit.
God Bless!
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 1:43PM
There is no such thing as a Holy Father or Pope in the Bible.
It is an abomination.
The Bible states:
"And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, Who is in Heaven." Mt. 23:9.
That's good enough for me. It's God's command!
Now,
Jn. 1:12 is Jesus explaining WHO He considers His children. It is those who actually receive Him, AND believe in His Name.
Jn. 20:17~ Jesus is addressing whom? The brethren, so yes, God is their Father.
Isaiah of course was a child of God. He was a Prophet of God.
So, what's your point, Nick?
It proves that the Word of God is correct, and unimpeachable by Catholic doctrine that says "we're all children of God".
Nick| 8.1.11 @ 12:36AM
Margie,
You don't call your dad Father?
And, I missed where Christ said it was an "abomination" in Matthew 23:9.
You are wrenching a teaching of Christ's out of context. I'll spare you the history lesson, but, I can provide a link, if you would like?
Christ was not being literal, and this easily proved by the Sacred Scriptures. If Christ meant His teaching in the way you are asserting, then Saints Paul and Stephen both violated the Word of God:
"And [Abraham] received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the justice of the faith which he had, being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, being uncircumcised: that unto them also it may be reputed to justice: And he might be the father of circumcision; not to them only that are of the circumcision, but to them also that follow the steps of the faith that is in the uncircumcision of our father Abraham."
"And not only she. But when Rebecca also had conceived at once of Isaac our father."
- Romans 4:11-12; 9:10
"Who said: You men, brethren and fathers, hear. The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham, when he was in Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charan." - Acts 7:2
Were Paul and Stephen also Papal Inquisitors?
Christ also says call no man "teacher" and "master" in the same discourse from Matthew 23. Again, Paul violates this command by referring to himself many times as teacher:
"Wherein I am appointed a preacher and an apostle and teacher of the Gentiles."
- 2 Tim. 1:11 (cf 1 Tim. 2:7; 1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11)
If you take Christ's words literally, then you have violated His command, probably many times, Margie.
Do you use the word "doctor"? Doctor is Latin for teacher. Do you refer to people as "Mr." and "Mrs."? They are forms of the word master.
Uh-oh! Mister Grady is violating the Word of God! Better chastise him, posthaste! Ha-ha!
If I were to be as literal as you are demanding, I could claim that, technically, Christ actually said, "And call no man your abba on earth, for you have one Abba, Who is in Heaven."
We Catholics call the Pope, Papa, the "Holy Father", not the "Holy Abba". This would mean that we are not violating Christ's command. It would also mean that the band ABBA is going to Hell!
God Bless!
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:07PM
"Jesus answered Him, "If a man loves Me, he will keep My Word, and My Father will love Him, and we will come to him and make Our home with him." Jn. 14:23.
Which is it? The Pope or Jesus?
God or Man?
The Bible or Religion?
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 2:55AM
Margie,
It is Christ and His Church.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 1:32PM
According to the Bible, the church is those that OBEY Jesus' Words, and that it consists of PEOPLE.
It is not a building, and it is NOT a Religion.
And it certainly is NOT catholicism, since Catholicism perverts the Word of God, and its members are taught to hate Christians who profess
the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, and murdered millions of Christ's Body!
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 11:42PM
Margie,
According to Christ's Church it is both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition that provide the means for the Body of Christ to attain Perfection.
But, first, one must humble oneself and assent to Christ's authority and the authority of His Church.
God Bless!
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 1:49PM
"I am a Christian, and I believe the Word of God, as well as the Pope. My "Religion" didn't kill or torture anyone. People did. Under the power of the secular authority."
They tortured and killed Bible believing Christians because they, just like me, stand on the Word of God and reject false Religion.
The did it because of what they believed in~ false perverted doctrines.
Exactly like the Islamists torture and kill anyone who doesn't agree to their cult of death!
"They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God." Jn. 16:2.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 1:08AM
p.s. And of course He loves us. (Jn. 3:16).
But no one is able to see His Kingdom without the spiritual birth, or being "regenerated" from above, as the original Greek says.
Jn. 3:3 is where Jesus tells us we must be born anew, of the Spirit.
Another example of how Catholicism is demonic~ it doesn't even teach this!
How can a church claim to be of God, and yet not teach the Words of God?
They have never repented from their apostasy.
Nick| 7.30.11 @ 2:52AM
Margie,
"Another example of how Catholicism is demonic~ it doesn't even teach this!"
Not true. The Church teaches that the Holy Spirit circumcises our hearts, so, we are regenerated, from above, at baptism.
"In whom also you are circumcised with circumcision not made by hand in despoiling of the body of the flesh: but in the circumcision of Christ. Buried with him in baptism: in whom also you are risen again by the faith of the operation of God who has raised him up from the dead." - Colossians 2:11-12
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states, "The human body shares in the dignity of ‘the image of God’: it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit" (CCC 364, emphasis added).
"Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte ‘a new creature,’ an adopted son of God, who has become . . . a temple of the Holy Spirit" (CCC 1265).
This article deals with this subject nicely:
http://www.catholic.com/librar....._Again.asp
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 5:48AM
I don't care what "the Church" teaches. I only care about what the Bible teaches, and I don't need some latin-obsessed pharisee in a robe and a silly hat telling me what to think about my faith.
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 3:04AM
Mister Grady,
I hope you care about what the Church teaches, someday, because She teaches the Good News of Jesus Christ.
I know you see we Catholics as Pharisees, because of our appeals to Sacred Tradition.
Just as I see Protestants as a Sadducees, because you do not use all of the inspired Scriptures of the Bible.
But, I'm sure we agree on some parts of the Faith.
God Bless!
Your Brother in Christ, Nick
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:15PM
The Bible does not teach regeneration at baptism, Nick. It's a lie.
Col. 2:12 doesn't say anything about regeneration, either.
Then you quote Catholic doctrine to back yourself up! LOL.
The Lord Jesus Christ says this:
"Jesus answered and said to him, Truly,
truly, I say to you, If one is not generated
from above, he is not able to see the kingdom
of God.
Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man
able to be generated, being old? He is not
able to enter into his mother’s womb a second
time and be generated.
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to
you, If one is not generated out of water
and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the
kingdom of God.
The thing having been generated out of
the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated
out of the Spirit is spirit.
Do not wonder because I said to you,
You must be generated from above.
The Spirit breathes where He desires,
and you hear His voice; but you do not
know from where He comes, and where
He goes; so is everyone having been generated
from the Spirit." Jn. 3:3-8.
Jesus just clearly explained that each living soul must be regenerated from above by the Spirit of God. He explained that we are born of the flesh (water birth), and that we need to be born of God.
This is a wonderful thing! But Catholicism perverts even this Word of God in that it tries to claim~and against the Spirit of God~ that baptism saves!!
Consider just whom you are serving!
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 3:38AM
Margie,
"If one is not generated out of water
and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the
kingdom of God."
Water is not flesh, v. 6. What is the water that Christ is talking about? Amniotic fluid? No, it is not. Baptism consists of water and Spirit. Just go back 2 chapters.
Christ is baptized by John. The Holy Spirit descends "as a dove from heaven" on Christ. This is being regenerated from above by water and Spirit. Although, Christ had no need for baptism, He lead by example. All four of the Gospels record this event (see Matthew 3:16; Mark 1:10; & Luke 3:22.)
Also, Peter said that "baptism saves":
"Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ [...]." - 1 Peter 3:21
I believe I have shown this to you before.
Please read the article I linked to, it explains this better than I can.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 1:28PM
You're lying for your cult again, Nick.
Jesus' speaking to Nicodemus clearly shows what He meant, because He actually SAID what He meant.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh.."
You are perverting the Word of God when you say He meant baptism..
The flesh does not equal baptism, it equals FLESH.
The flesh is physical.
When Nicodemus said, "How can a man be BORN when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his Mother's womb and be born?'"
Look it up as it is a well known fact that physical birth was referred to the water birth in the days of old.
He was asking about Physical birth~ and Jesus said, no, not physical (water birth) birth, but spiritual.
That's why He said, "That which is born of the FLESH is FLESH.
Stop perverting the Word of God!
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 11:37PM
Margie,
We will have to agree to disagree.
Many Christian denominations agree with the Catholic Church that John 3 is talking about the Sacrament of Baptism. So, it's not just we Papal Inquisitors.
p.s. I tried to look up "water birth" and the only thing that came up was women having babies in bathtubs and hot tubs. Could you provide a link?
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 3:56PM
How is the flesh equal to baptism?
Jesus said flesh is flesh, Spirit is Spirit in his answer to Nicodemus as to his question of "can a man enter into his Mother's womb and be born again?
He made it perfectly clear.
You purposely and consciously reject His Words, and instead choose a false Religion that perverts His Words.
If you were a Christian, you wouldn't be doing that.
You have been fooled by the father of lies himself.
I truly hope you repent.
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 3:58PM
You can pretend to not know that a baby is surrounded in his Mother's womb and it was referred to as the water birth.
Born of the flesh~ you KNOW what that means. You're playing games, but it isn't with really me, Nick.
Good luck.
Nick| 8.2.11 @ 1:19AM
Margie,
I had never heard that "it was referred to as the water birth." Until, I read about Protestants trying to deny what Christ meant in John 3.
Besides, how many different kinds of births are there? Other than "egg birth," that is. Who would distinguish a birth as a "water" birth? Makes no sense.
You are making a connection between "water" and "flesh" that does not exist.
" Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them]."
- Ezekiel 36:25-27
Do you see His Word?
The Word of God agrees with the Catholic Church. God even said that He would "sprinkle", not fully immerse. Imagine that.
God Bless!
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 4:13PM
To add:
The Bible says Man is created in the image of God in Genesis.
Of course. Have you not continued to read about the fall of Man?
How Adam sinned, and because of it, there is need for repentance from our sins, and that Salvation comes through Jesus Christ?
Being created in the likeness of God does not mean we are children of God, otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said that we must BECOME a child of God in Jn. 1:12.
The Bible says:
"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." Jn. 4:22.
"f you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" Lk. 11:13.
The entire gospel of Jesus Christ is about repentance from our sins and Salvation through receiving and believing in Him.
If we were all the children of God, there would be no repentance necessary.
If the Bible says that we're in darkness, how can it be that there is fellowship with God, and thus His children?
We're not. Not until we do what He calls us to do.
"..For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?" 2 Cor. 6:14.
In fact, the Bible tells us that the whole World is in the power of the evil one.
"We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one." 1 Jn. 5:19.
Who do you think the WE is in this verse?
It's Christians. The ones who have repented and believed the gospel of Jesus Christ, and received Him.
"He who does not love Me does not keep My Words; and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." Jn. 14:24.
This is what you're Papal Inquisitors killed for~ because Christians are willing to be tortured and die rather than bow the knee to the demonic doctrines of your cult.
"Because you have kept My Word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth." Rev. 3:10.
So, I've just proven, according to the Bible and not my own mind~ and not according to anyone's Religion~ that we are not all God's children.
That we are in darkness, separated from God because of Adam's Sin.
And that Jesus says we must "become" a child of God.
Your Religion perverts the gospel and it is not Christian.
You cannot serve two masters.
It's either the Word of God~ or the Pope's word.
No contest for me!
Nick| 8.1.11 @ 3:01AM
Margie,
You continue to purposely misinterpret what I have written. God is the Father of everyone on Earth, everyone who ever lived. Because He created all of us.
So, how about, "We are all God's children." Is that better?
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 3:52PM
Jesus told you just who are His children, Nick.
The ball's in your court.
RCV| 8.1.11 @ 7:01PM
Blessed are the Peacemakers, for they shall be called the Children of God. ...not those who stir up dissension and division among Christ's followers.
Patrick| 7.29.11 @ 5:16PM
Fine. Let me look at the cars in the factory that I work at. Roughly 2/3 of the night shift is Hmong. Of them, 3/4 of them are Buddhist, followed by various sects of Christianity, one of which is exclusively Hmong in composition. Since you are making the case for superstitious acts poisoning the Christian well, I will take a look. Huh, you're right, there are good luck charms on some of those cars....oh wait some of them are crosses. Doh!
As for harmless details like red roofs, some of it has been emasculated of its pagan importance and simply a statement of aesthetic culture. Of course, we mustn't look too deeply into that, considering how much the European culture, even in stridently Protestant country, is littered with vestiges of pre-Christian nature. Even so, it is laughable for someone to claim that those who celebrate the birth of Christ during Christmas are actually honoring Saturn or Mithra.
Get a grip.
Of the 50 or so Hmong workers, there are two extended families with various connections between the two. They associate with themselves, but are far more willing to open up than your caricature implies. Much of this is dependent upon which generation of Hmong you speak of, relative age of immigration and years of residence in America. Assimilation is taking root, even the bad parts of it, mostly because the Hmong are despised by the Left for daring to side against the Communists.
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 9:55PM
Sheila, they won't address the argument. They are not equipped to do so. If they were, they would start with how your statement is racist, but they can't as they are to ignorant. Just let them make fools of themselves, as they normally do.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 10:10PM
If you're including me in your statement, you are wrong. I did address her statement as racist, for one thing, and have often protested to her racism.
W| 7.30.11 @ 9:31AM
Q, why don't you adress Sheila's argument, unless of course you agree with her.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:16PM
Why don't you? Unless of course you agree with her.
W| 7.30.11 @ 4:37PM
I dont agree with Sheila's bigotry nor with your bigotry, Mullah. if you read her closely, she agrees with you . She assumes your bigotry extends to race as well as religion. Since you answer for Q, it appears you are using Q as one of you names. It doesnt matter since your little possee thinks and follows the KKK line . Have a nice weekend with your hate.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 5:42PM
You're quite the disgusting human being, I give you that much.
You're a liar and I strongly suggest you repent.
"But for the cowardly and faithless ones,
and disgusting ones, and murderers, and
fornicators, and users of magic, and idolaters,
and all liars, their part will be in the
Lake burning with fire and brimstone,
which is the second death." Rev. 21:8.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:16AM
Margie the Mullah... or Mullah Margie. They both have a certain ring to them. Or perhaps Mufti Margie? Perhaps Mufti Margie is the grand heir to Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem during WWII. Now there was a great guy. Involved with recruiting Arab Muslim support for the Nazis and all. Especcially the Waffen SS; he REALLY loved us Jews.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 5:46PM
p.s. For the record, and as I've stated before many times, I am not anyone else, including my husband who posts here.
Your lying about me, like your pitiful pal Clint/Tim* only gets you in trouble with God.
Oh, and if ONLY I could post with the same excellence that QuarterMaster does!
No, you just are so rabid in your hatred that you can't stand the fact that there are actually other Christians out there who also denounce your cult, and stand on the Word of God.
I hope you repent.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:16PM
again, do not hate you, never said i hate you, never said anthing to criticize true christianit. i feel sorry for you, get help.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 11:21PM
You're a hateful liar.
You have repeatedly lied about me here, in numerous ways.
That is hate, sweetie.
And you need to repent.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:18AM
Margie Dear, keep you pants on. No one here needs to "lie" about you. All they have to do is read what you have written.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 5:18PM
John Wycliffe, a couple of hundred years before that was persecuted for doing what?
Translating the Bible into English!
"The (Catholic) church bitterly opposed it: "By this translation, the Scriptures have become vulgar, and they are more available to lay, and even to women who can read, than they were to learned scholars, who have a high intelligence. So the pearl of the gospel is scattered and trodden underfoot by swine."
Wycliffe replied, "Englishmen learn Christ's law best in English. Moses heard God's law in his own tongue; so did Christ's apostles."
http://www.christianitytoday.c.....liffe.html
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 5:24PM
AmSpec wouldn't post the first part of my post and considered it spam. The first message said "Too many links."
I removed all but 2 links, and then it told me to "contact so and so Williamsomebody @Amspec."
I was trying to post in reply to Dixie Pixie's post and to add to what he said.
First, I mentioned how Martin Luther was persecuted for translating the Bible into German and it was due to the Catholic church's power hungry authorities that only wanted it in Latin so they could practice their false doctrines and keep the people in the dark.
Also, so was William Tyndale.
There's a video of this history in one of the links.
Jesus Christ is Lord.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 5:39PM
William Tyndale
http://www.thereformation.info/tyndale.htm
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 8:35PM
Do Your Homework.
William Tynsdale was put to death due to to the efforts of The Church Of England's Henry VIII's henchman.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 8:45PM
For those who want to know the truth, click on the link.
The above modern day Papal Inquisitor despises the truth.
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 8:52PM
American Spectator's Resident Conflicted Head Case, Lapsed Catholic/Anti-Catholic Serial Fanatic Joisey White Trash Bigot , Margie Is In The Building.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 8:57PM
I'm a Christian. I couldn't be a Christian without denouncing Catholicism.
Just as William Tyndale, John Wycliffe, and my other brethren in the faith of Jesus Christ.
They were rejected as were millions of my brethren~ and spat upon~ by the likes of men like you.
Jesus is Lord, not the Pope.
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 9:03PM
You Are American Spectator's Resident Anti-Catholic Screwball Fanatic.
You're A Worldclass Hypocrite Bigot Faux Christian & A Lecturing Lapsed Catholic/ Turned Anti-Catholic Eight Ball.
See A Religious Counselor & A Shrink.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 9:08PM
Ugly filthy insults just proves what you are~ Catholic, and not Christian.
Vlady| 8.10.11 @ 2:23PM
Margie, he's still one up on you. The bilge and drivel you write show you to be neither a Catholic nor a Christian.
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 6:20AM
I wonder if Clint understands that ad hominem is exactly the kind of thing you do when you don't have an argument.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 9:35AM
Tell That Double Standard Crap To Your Co-Anti-Catholic Bigot, Mrs.Grady Bigot.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 3:20PM
"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom Judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4.
My brethren were beheaded by Catholic Papacy, they were tortured horribly, along with even their children~ for the same Word of God I defend here.
No one can serve two masters.
It's either the Word of God or the Pope.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:21AM
Oh my G-d, the truth is out! Margie is really a new prophet! One who is crazy, but still a PROPHET!
Hey Margie dear, are you going to set up a them park like Jim Bakker?
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 4:43PM
And in addition to ad hominem, misdirection is another fallacy of the argumentatively weak.
Is ad hominem, straw men, non sequitur, misdirection, appeal to authority, tu quoque, historical revisionism, and outright lying a part of the catechism? Must be.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 11:03PM
YES.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:22AM
We just had the prophet, and now we have the professor... This is getting too good. I haven't had this much fun in a long time.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 11:06PM
Gimmee some of that Old Time Catholic Religion, yeah!!
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 3:16PM
The Papal Inquisitors for 600 years did EXACTLY what Clint/Tim* and W and some others do to me and any Christians that speak the truth.
They'd abuse them verbally with vile hatred, and then murder them.
Babylon already has its reward.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:17PM
You are truly sick, accusing us of murder. get help.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 11:02PM
Amazing the delusion of some Catholics. Apparently,
they think it's sick to report the facts concerning the murders, but NOT sick that they committed them.
Get help, indeed. In fact if you don't repent, you'll perish along with your old pals, the Papists.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:26AM
Your use of the word delusion is rich with irony. Hey, when you actually start reporting facts, please let us know.
You are still sounding like those Muslim apologists. They are NEVER wrong, much like Mufit Margie. And Dr. Das Reich. And Quartermaster (hey if you really are or were a Quartermaster, you are still a REMF, no matter how much you beg us to go on missions) and Mr. O'Grady Potato Head.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 11:19PM
He has no argument at all. He is a cult defender.
When confronted with Scripture, he won't even answer you back.
These flaming hypocrites get to character assassinate freely, yet that's what they accuse us of.
Mention just one verse from the Bible that disproves their Religions doctrines, and instead of admitting they've been wrong and repenting and following His Words~ they behave like the most vile of modern day Papal Inquisitors.
Proving one thing and one thing only~
that that Religion is still teaching the same things it taught when it murdered millions of our brethren.
Because if it ever repented, it wouldn't be teaching the kinds of doctrines that makes these poor souls actually believe that Christians are their enemies for speaking from the Scriptures.
God says that if we refuse to love the truth, this is what He will do to us:
"The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,
so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thess. 2:9-12.
Vlady| 8.10.11 @ 2:19PM
Is she really a lapsed Catholic? Are you kidding me?
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 8:58PM
William Tyndale was murdered in a conspiracy by an agent of King Henry VIII.
William Tyndale's last words were, "Lord, open the King of England's eyes."
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 9:07PM
Lord, open the Clint of AmSpec's eyes.
"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn. 3:3.
"Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born anew.'" Jn. 3:7.
Anti-Christian Clint, how about what God says?
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 9:59PM
Henry was a Roman Catholic at the time. In good standing, no less. While Henry's eyes were never opened, he did desire a divorce so he could sire a successor to the throne and relented on allowing certain Protestant forms.
The Pope granted Henry the title "Defender of The Faith." A title that is still passed to the King's and Queens of England.
perhaps if you actually entered into debate instead of trying to act like a playground bully, you might be taken seriously.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 9:44AM
No He Wasn't Victor -"Quartermaster".
Tynsdale was executed in 1536.
Henry VIII separated from The Catholic Church in 1534.
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 5:52AM
Aww, that's cute. Hurling ad hominems in a transparent and ineffective attempt to shut down criticism of Godlessness.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 9:46AM
Aww, that's cute. Another Anti-Catholic Agendist Mrs.Grady.
Say Hi To Dr.Reich.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:19PM
Your paranoia is showing again, Clint/Tim*.
When are you going to repent?
Don't you want to get saved from your sins by Jesus Christ?
The Pope can't save you~ he's living the same lie you are.
What do you think Jesus meant when He says this:
"But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, He gave power to become children of God;
who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn. 1:12 & 13.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 5:50PM
The Inquisition's (Catholicism) History~
http://vimeo.com/25534859
Clint.| 7.29.11 @ 8:48PM
"The number of people who died in the various inquistions across Europe is difficult to determine, but the number of victims can be numbered in the thousands, not the millions.
Also,The Spanish Inquisition was state ministry, not papal organization. Blaming Popes for deeds of Spanish Inquisition is incorrect.
For example, the Spanish Inquisition, assuredly the most vigorous and corrupt of the various inquisitorial bodies that existed in Europe, held 49,000 trials between 1560-1700 and executed between 3 and 5,000 people.
I suggest to read Edward Peter's Inquisition for the most up to date analysis of the topic, including the myths that have arisen surrounding the inquisitions."
Also,
"King Henry VIII is responsible for the deaths of over 70,000 Catholics including hundreds of priests and Bishops.
Queen Elizabeth I, had thousands of Catholics put to death in England. She ordered that Catholic Mary Queen of Scots be executed in 1587. She had thousands more killed in Ireland.
Oliver Cromwell is responsible for starting the English civil war and the subsequent beheading of Catholic King Charles I, and for the killing of thousands of Catholics in that war of 1642-1649.
The Protestant English redcoats were also responsible for confiscating the food from the Irish people and for leaving them only with potatoes which were blighted and unfit to eat. In the mid 19th century this caused the deaths by starvation of an estimated 1-1.5 million Irish Catholics, and the emigration of about 2 million more. It was a case of either leave the country or die of starvation."
Belloc| 7.29.11 @ 6:21PM
"Moses must ever be looked upon with suspicion, even as upon a heretic, excommunicated, damned, worse than the Pope and the devil"
(Martin Luther-Commentary on Galatians).
"I will not have Moses with his Law, for he is the enemy of the Lord Christ" (Martin Luther-Tischreden (Table Talk), L.C.12.s.17).
"They are fools who attempt to overcome temptations [to lust] by fasting, prayer and chastisement. For such temptations and immoral attacks are easily overcome when there are plenty of maidens and women"
(Luther's Works, Jena ed., 1558, 2, 116).
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 6:35PM
So are you are defending his persecution, and that of millions of others under the centuries of murderous Papacies?
Martin Luther, like all of mankind had his faults (as Catholics also say about the Pope), but God used him for His excellent purposes.
To help break the cultish power the "church" had on the regular folk so that they too could read the Bible, and for that I for one will be eternally grateful!
Nick| 7.30.11 @ 1:29AM
Margie,
These are more fictions aimed at discrediting the Catholic Church. They do not reflect the historical record.
It's funny, because I just happened to read an article about Wycliff and Tyndale a couple of weeks ago.
There were many English versions of the Sacred Scriptures before Wycliff produced his heretical translation. It was because of Wycliff, that the Synod of Oxford passed a law, in 1408, that prevented the publishing of any unauthorized translations of the Bible, or reading any unauthorized version. (The Church has always encouraged lay people to read the scriptures.)
A hundred years later, Tyndale violated this law. He was a priest of little note, who had been tried for heresy 3 years before he published his English translation. The Bishop of London said that there were over 2,000 errors in Tyndale's unauthorized translation of the New Testament.
Also, Tyndale's version included a prologue and notes that showed his clear anti-Catholic bias. So, yes, the Church condemned his translation, because it was unauthorized. So did King Henry VIII, who, in 1531, said, "the translation of the Scripture corrupted by William Tyndale should be utterly expelled, rejected, and put away out of the hands of the people."
Henry condemned Tyndale's translation again in 1543, saying, "all manner of books of the Old and New Testament in English, being of the crafty, false, and untrue translation of Tyndale . . . shall be clearly and utterly abolished, extinguished, and forbidden to be kept or used in this realm."
Tyndale was tried for heresy by the court of the Holy Roman Empire in 1536, i.e., the secular authorities. He was tried, and convicted, because of his heretical ideas, not because he published an English translation of the Bible.
You can read the full story here (which is where I got my quotes):
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0212fea3.asp
Hope that helps.
God Bless!
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:25PM
No, they are not fiction!
Sad that you defend the persecution and murders of true saints and Martyrs for the Word of God.
Pretty sickening.
The Catholic church has formed some really perverse modern day Papal Inquisitors, hasn't it?
Your cult also teaches another perverse thing: that saints are people who "the church" makes saints after they're dead.
This is a disgusting teaching and against the Spirit of God.
All one has to do is actually read the Bible to see that a saint is a living soul that follows Jesus in this life.
And they the ones that YOUR cult put to death, and still hates with perfect hatred.
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 3:54AM
Margie,
I'm confused. Am I a "modern day Papal Inquisitor"? When did this happen? I received no notice in the mail. Ha-ha!
"Your cult also teaches another perverse thing: [...]."
The Catholic Church teaches no such thing. Saints are saints because they died with no mortal sin on their soul and went straight to Heaven. When the Church declares someone a saint, all She is doing is publicly acknowledging what has already happened to that saint, and, allowing the faithful to venerate that saint.
I see that you did not refute any of the historical facts concerning Wycliff and Tyndale. And, again, the secular authorities executed people, not the Church. Please, read the linked article.
God Bless!
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:51PM
Nick~
You reject the Words of God for the doctrines of demons.
The Bible says nothing of the sort.
And I posted 83 Scriptures to prove it.
When I say you are lying for your cult~ it's the truth.
The Words of God seem to roll off you like water off a duck's back.
You're the "perfect" cult member.
God has warned you, through the Bible (His own Words) in many and various ways, that the doctrines that you follow are unbiblical, and you are rejecting the Word of God.
I hope you repent.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:55PM
"And, again, the secular authorities executed people, not the Church."
I see. You mean like how the Pharisees handed Jesus over to the Roman authorities?
Have you no shame??
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:56PM
p.s. You are NOT "confused". You are blatantly lying.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 1:11PM
"I see that you did not refute any of the historical facts concerning Wycliff and Tyndale."
LOL. You say I should read the linked article written by the murderous Catholic church.
Very funny!
That's like telling me to trust O.J. Simpson's "version" of the murders of Nicole & Ron.
Disgusting.
Nick,
Anyone can read the true historical facts concerning these saints of God that were tortured and murdered by your Papal Inquisitors. They lied about them like you do, for that is what you are actually doing when you hold up the Catholic Religion~ you are slapping Jesus in the face.
Nick, you may believe in Jesus~ but you know what James says, "Even the demons believe... and shudder." Jas. 2:19.
These Catholic murderers and their minions were demonic~ and THIS is who YOU are in fellowship!
You actually justify them. YES, you do!
You agree that these two men were "heretics" like they did.
You are fellowshipping with the Prince of Darkness.
RCV| 7.31.11 @ 7:56PM
Speaking as an Anglican, whose Church honors Wycliffe (his name day in the US is Oct 30), Nick happens to be right about his death. He was not put to death by the Church - he died of a stroke while saying Mass at Oxford. The Catholic church did indeed engage in the silly spectacle of digging up and burning his bones, but he had long since been dead and his soul had left his remains and joined with the Spirit.
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 3:49PM
Yes, I misspoke.
The fact is that they hated him so much they dug up his bones to burn him.
And for translating the Bible so that anyone besides the perverted Papacy could read it.
That same hatred is taught today~ because of their false doctrines, they believe Bible believing Christians, like Wycliffe and the millions of other Christian Martyrs~ are horrible.
It wasn't "silly" that they dug up his bones~ it's disgusting and despicable. Exactly like their sick demonic doctrines are that drove them to hate the man in the first place.
But they were so blinded by their hatred for a Christian, so vile, so utterly devoid of the Spirit of God, that they weren't satisfied when the man died.
Catholicism is NOT Christianity~ it's demonic and cruel. It is where Satan dwells.
Jesus Christ is Lord, not the Pope.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 1:15PM
"Declared a heretic; body exhumed and destroyed
In fact, Your disgusting Catholic pals hated Wycliffe so much, that they actually dug up his bones and burned them!!
Why?
because this blessed brother in Christ wanted to and did translate the Bible into English so that EVERYONE could read it.
THIS was against the disgusting Popes who devilishly wanted to keep the people from reading God's own Words for themselves.
Because if they did that, they'd SEE the doctrines of your cult were FALSE and unbiblical!!
I hope you repent.
Burning Wycliffe's bones, from Foxe's Book of Martyrs (1563)
The Council of Constance declared Wycliffe (on 4 May 1415) a stiff-necked heretic and under the ban of the Church. It was decreed that his books be burned and his remains be exhumed. The exhumation was carried out in 1428 when, at the command of Pope Martin V, his remains were dug up, burned, and the ashes cast into the River Swift, which flows through Lutterworth. This is the most final of all posthumous attacks on John Wycliffe, but previous attempts had been made before the Council of Constance. The Anti-Wycliffite Statute of 1401 extended persecution to Wycliffe's remaining followers. The "Constitutions of Oxford" of 1408 aimed to reclaim authority in all ecclesiastical matters, specifically naming John Wycliffe in a ban on certain writings, and noting that translation of Scripture into English is a crime punishable by charges of heresy."
Nick| 8.2.11 @ 12:50AM
Margie,
Wycliff's body was exhumed, and removed, because he was buried in consecrated ground. Since he was declared a heretic by the Council of Constance (1414-1418) his body had to be removed from the cemetery. Catholics who were excommunicated, or declared themselves not to be in union with the Church, could not be buried in a consecrated Catholic cemetery.
I could find no independent corroboration as to whether, or not, Wycliff's bones were burned and the ashes cast into a river. But, I did learn that Jan Hus, who was convicted of heresy by the same council, and burned at the stake by the secular authorities, had his ashes thrown into the Rhine.
So, it is probable that the same thing was done to Wycliff.
I could only confirm that Pope Martin V, in his Papal Bull Inter Cunctas (1418), approved the actions of the council.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:53PM
Christians obey the Word of God.
Catholics obey the word of the Pope.
Here are 83 verses from the Word of God so that anyone can look them up and see who GOD calls saints:
2Ch 6:41, Psa 16:3, Psa 30:4, Psa 31:23, Psa 34:9, Psa 37:28, Psa 79:2, Psa 85:8, Psa 97:10, Psa 116:15, Psa 132:9, Psa 132:16, Psa 145:1, Psa 148:14, Pro 2:8, Dan 7:18, Dan 7:21, Dan 7:22, Dan 7:25, Dan 7:27, Dan 8:24, Mat 27:52, Act 9:13, Act 9:32, Act 9:41, Act 26:10, Rom 1:7, Rom 8:27, Rom 12:13, Rom 15:25, &26Rom; 15:31, Rom 16:2, Rom 16:151, Cr 1:21, Cr 6:11, Cr 6:21, Cr 14:33, 1Cr 16:11, Cr 16:12, Cr 1:12, Cr 8:42, Cr 9:12, Cr 9:122, Cr 13:13, Eph 1:1, Eph 1:15, Eph 1:18, Eph 2:19, Eph 3:18, Eph 4:12, Eph 5:3, Eph 6:18, Phl 1:1, Phl 4:22, Col 1:2, Col 1:12, Col 1:26, 1Th 3:13, 2Th 1:10, 1Ti 5:1, Phm 1:5, Phm 1:7, Hbr 6:10, Hbr 13:24, Jud 1:3, Rev 5:8, Rev 8:3, Rev 8:4, Rev 11:18, Rev 13:7, Rev 13:10, Rev 14:12, Rev 16:6, Rev 17:6, Rev 18:20, Rev 18:24, Rev 19:8, Rev 20:9, Rev 22:2.
Now quit lying for your cult and being a brother to him who destroys.
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 4:05AM
Margie,
I'm assuming this was aimed at me.
I don't lie. I thought you saw me as a fellow brother in Christ? I hope that I have not offended you in some way?
God Bless!
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:30AM
Nick,
You offended her by not agreeing with her religion of one. Don't worry, in time Margie dear will give you a respite, and start on the Jews. I can't wait for the discussions of Churching those Jews....
Get the Catholicks Margie! Get 'em! Save their souls with your personal interpretation. The same type of personal interpretations that gave us the Nazis and the Communists.
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 12:43PM
Vlady,
You couldn't be more wrong. Margie is a great defender of both Jews and Israel. You are way off base.
And, believe it, or not, I consider Margie a friend. We agree to disagree on our differing views of Christianity. Although, we will both defend our points of view vigorously.
There is no excuse for personal attacks when discussing the Word of God. Not that I've always practiced what I preach, mind you. It has been a long, slow road that I have traveled. But, I think I'm making some progress.
You will tend to get farther when you treat people with mutual respect. Some are beyond help, e.g. Kook of the Net and PurpleJackass. They have absolutely no interest in an honest debate, about anything.
I hope I have changed your mind in this regard.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 3:34PM
Vlady's a coward who hides behind a screen name because he's a coward and a liar, and despises the Word of God.
Nick,
If Scripture is presented to you and yet you cling to false doctrine, then yes, you are lying FOR the cult of Catholicism.
Why do you want to do that?
How are you a brother in Christ if you do that?
My brethren, who your cult tortured and murdered for centuries because they too stood on what the Bible actually teaches were my brothers and sisters in the Lord.
What you profess are the same horrible doctrines that led them to do this.
Nick, you cannot be a Christian and reject His teachings.
You cannot be a true Christian and believe an abomination like Mary is God's Mother, and that she is another mediator between God and Man when the Bible says that isn't true.
Christians obey the Words of Christ, Catholics believe the words of the Pope.
I hope you repent.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 9:10PM
And us Jews do neither. As for being a coward, come down range with me on my next deployment. We are going to Afghanistan. You'll fit right in with the Taliban. I don't despise the word of G-d. But I do despise bigots like you.
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 3:42PM
Good. I am glad you despise me, because you are disgusting.
Vlady| 8.3.11 @ 12:10PM
So you never said whether you would go with me to Afghanistan, Margie Dear. I'm telling you babycakes, you are going to fit right in with the Taliban.... You are cut from the same bolt of cloth.
I may be disgusting, but you are a bigot. And I can clean myself up.
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 11:26PM
Margie,
When people have differing interpretations of what a particular verse, or a whole chapter, of Scripture is saying, it doesn't mean that one of them is "lying." It's just a difference of opinion.
As I've pointed out to you in previous threads, I could say the same about you, and your version of Biblical interpretation. You pick and choose which parts of Scripture are literal, and which ones are symbolic. Just as you accuse me of doing.
And, haven't you called me a "brother in Christ" on numerous occasions? What happened?
I'm still a Christian. I love God with my whole heart and mind. I try to live up to His commands, and fall short, because I'm a lowly sinner. It is only by the power of God that I can love all of His children.
I hope we can continue our discussions without this acrimony.
God Bless!
Yours in Christ, Nick
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 3:41PM
Nick,
When the Bible plainly says what something is, and another perverts it~ Catholicism and those that follow it, and when you are presented with the truth and you still promote the false doctrine~ it isn't ME you're calling a liar.
It's God.
Jesus says what a Christian is, and His standard is that we obey His Words.
Catholicism is in violation of His Words.
I doubt we can have further conversations if you expect me to be "nice".
I'm not into being nice, nor does God even want me to be. What I am is angry at Sin.
Take care.
Nick| 8.1.11 @ 11:28PM
Margie,
"it isn't ME you're calling a liar."
I never called you liar, ever.
You used to be nice to me. I don't understand what happened. I will still continue to pray for you, Victor, and the rest of your family. I wish you all the best.
So, be nice, or don't. You can't hurt me, Margie. You are my sister in Christ. You take care, as well.
God Bless!
Your Brother in Christ, Nick
Belloc| 7.29.11 @ 6:38PM
"The word and works of God is quite clear, that women were made either to be wives or prostitutes."
[Martin Luther, Works 12.94]
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 7:02PM
Good thing we don't worship man and not God then eh?
Vlady| 7.29.11 @ 7:12PM
The way you talk old Margie dear, I am not really sure which one you are... So what are you, love? Wife or prostitute?
Go get you some Damned Catholics and Church them Margie! Church them quick.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 7:44PM
Which are you~ rapist or murderer? Or perhaps you are a pedophile Priest?
The way YOU talk is disgusting!
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 10:01PM
Vile is not an accurate word to use on such posts as Vlady's.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:36AM
I don't think they will let a Jew be a priest. But the ones I have known were a lot nicer than you. Even though I always seemed to meet them on a battlefield, taking care of my guys.
So where were you Mufti Margie, and Dr. Das Reich, and Mr. O'Grady Potato Head, and Quartermaster the REMF, when those Damn Catholick priests were taking care of my Marines? Where were you? Probably talking the same trash you spew here.
Not once did those Catholick priests try to convert me or anything else. They were respectful toward me and my religion. I can't say the same for most of the Protestant chaplains - although there were a couple of good ones. But they were the exception.
If you can't be respectful toward them, even if you think they are wrong, there's no way in hell you will be respectful to a Jew.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:45PM
You need to mature just a liiiittle bit.
When and if you do, you will be able to use the reason God gave you.
When and if you do that, and decide to be honest, you will read the things that Christians say and not immediately turn around and lie about what they've said.
Case in point: Christians do not hate Catholics. We HATE the FALSE and disgusting DOCTRINES of this church.
Try real hard to see this FACT, if you possibly can.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 1:36PM
If maturing raises my esteem in your eyes, then it simply isn't worth it.
And I have utilized my good Jewish reasoning skills to conclude that you are a bigot. A simple, historically uninformed bigot. But a bigot nevertheless.
On the other hand, pick up a rifle and walk into combat with me. Maybe then I'll change my mind.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 1:40PM
It's Sunday. Shouldn't you be Church praying for everyone?
Dixie Pixie| 7.29.11 @ 7:57PM
Ignore “Vlad the Impaler Lady” Margie.
She is only trying to push your buttons.
Lets us keep it light and clean on this thread.
My humble apologies Vlady, but I could not resist a good Vlad joke.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 8:28PM
"Keep it light and clean."
The Catholics find that nearly impossible, as you know.
And I said nothing wrong in my defense.
Vlady's a she?
And why do you apologize to it??
No go, Dixie. Both barrels when the perverts start in.
What did you think of the substance of what I posted?
Have I lied about anything?
Have I not spoken the truth in order to wake these people up from their deep sleep?
Who else really cares enough to tell it like it is? I see you have begun to try, but good luck.
No matter how "nice" you try to be, and with what excellent prose, you'll get accused of the most vile of behavior and insults to your very soul.
It's what they did to our brethren for centuries, and they're still doing it.
Sad.
Dixie Pixie| 7.29.11 @ 9:31PM
Greetings Margie, Graceful Slayer of Trolls and Mighty Defender of the Faith.
Apparently we don't have a difference in goals or objectives.
I simply believe in using a lighter touch.
I simply see no point in conducting a Flame War with someone I will never meet.
Yes I do like to read your posts.
Please continue with my encouragement.
Keep up the good work Margie.
Just keep it clean if you can't keep it light, Please.
God| 7.29.11 @ 9:52PM
It appears, Margie & Dixie Pixie have made their own hell.
Dixie Pixie| 7.30.11 @ 8:49PM
You go to Heaven for the Music.
You go to Hell for the company.
---Mark Twain---
If God is Dog spelled backwards does this imply that DOG should be inverted into CAT.
And since the gender should also be inverted then the Supreme Deity should be a CAT Goddess.
That would make sense as the original GOD of the Underworld and Afterlife was Anubis the Jackal Faced God.
Thus the Goddess of Life on this plane of existence is the CAT Goddess Bastet.
Thus you are unmasked Bastet the Cat Goddess of Life.
As a prize do I get a jasmine and mint scented kitty liter box in the afterlife?
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 10:29PM
Yes, sir.
Thank you.
And God bless. :^)..
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 10:30PM
That was to my (spiritual) brother, Dixie.
Clint| 7.29.11 @ 9:47PM
Now Tell All The Practicing Jews & Muslims,Where You Say They Go When They Die, Margie.
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 10:02PM
Without Christ they will be thrown in the lake of Fire, along with the scornful such as yourself.
God| 7.30.11 @ 5:17AM
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 9:48AM
Victor Quartermaster Exposes His Anti-Semitic Agenda Too.
He's A Poly-Bigot.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:27AM
Silly wabbit.
And you're a poly-vestor.
Clint| 7.31.11 @ 11:26AM
You're American Spectator's Resident Maniac Screwball Fanatic Poly Bigot, Margie.
See A Religious Counselor And A Shrink.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:42PM
No, I am a royal fool for Christ.
Far, far better than being a child of the Devil.
Vlady| 8.3.11 @ 12:12PM
Oh, no Margie Dear. You are not a fool for Christ. You are simply a fool.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 10:23PM
Clint you ought to consider your own latter end.
Tell me where you think the Catholics who tortured these Bible believing Christians to death are now:
They refused Catholicism's doctrine, too.
http://www.homecomers.org/mirr.....68.htm#500
God| 7.30.11 @ 5:23AM
You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.
Vlad| 7.30.11 @ 10:16AM
But I am not Catholic, dear Margie. Not by a long shot.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 1:43PM
Margie Dear says, "Have I lied about anything?"
Uh.... In a word, yes. Babe, you aren't telling it like it is. You are telling it like you want to tell it. So you never said if you are a wife or a prostitute, in the Lutheran understanding. Which is it? I suppose you could be both at the same time...
Hey, are you by chance married to Dr. Right / Dr. Mengele / Dr. Das Reich?
You two would be positively awesome at a dinner party with Reihardt Heydrich and company....
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 5:41PM
Hey Troll:
How would you know anything? You aren't a Christian, nor do you care an iota about what the Bible says.
What you are is a liar and a fraud.
Suit yourself.
Vlady| 7.30.11 @ 10:20AM
Au contraire my good lady (I assume you are a female), a most excellent riposte. I salute you.
Dixie Pixie| 7.30.11 @ 10:08PM
Greetings V( The Miniseries)Lady
Just a quick question and suggestion, Who were you replying to, Me, Margie, God, Bastet or Vlad?
The thread indent went on for so long that I lost track of who was replying to whom.
In the future please, please, please, address who who are replying to as to avoid any further confusion.
PS....That scene in V where you tore off your face to reveal the lethal Lizard Lady within is in the top 10 coolest Sci-Fi scenes of all times.
Who knew a Alien Lizard Lady could look so sexy and dangerous are the same time.
Great job, keep doing such great Sci-Fi acting .
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:38AM
The excellent riposte, now times 2, was directed to you, Ms. Dixie Pixie.
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 5:57AM
Vlady, I'm afraid I'll have to deduct 70 points from your score on this post. You made no erroneous references to Hitler, Nazis, KKK, white sheets, Dr. Mengele, or any of that other good stuff you usually bring to the party.
W| 7.30.11 @ 9:35AM
You and your pals are the experts on Hitler, Nazis, KKK, white sheets, and Dr. Mengele. Your views of Catholics is the same as these.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:55PM
You're projecting again.
W| 7.30.11 @ 4:39PM
The truth hurts you, right. So your Mister Grady also, another of your names or personalities.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 6:30PM
Heh,
"W"~ how many entities art thou? Art thou the hypocrite?
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 1:44PM
That must be the prostitute in you talking....
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 4:47PM
W, as of this post, you're doing much better than Vlady. He's gonna have to step up his game and possibly invent new ad hominems if he's gonna keep up with you.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:19PM
It is easy with you Klan members, like low hanging fruit,
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 10:56PM
You remind me of what God calls disgusting:
"Blessed are the ones doing His commands,
that will be their right over the Tree
of Life, and by the gates they may enter
into the city.
But outside are the dogs and the sorcerers,
and the fornicators, and the murderers,
and the idolaters, and every one loving
a lie, and making a lie." Rev. 22:14 & 15.
Vlady| 7.30.11 @ 10:21AM
I promise to do better, Mr. Grady. So how does a non-Catholic like me start praying rosaries for you and Margie Dear and Dr. Mengele?
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 4:51PM
Vlady, it doesn't really matter how you proceed with your blasphemous rosary. You could just draw a pentagram on the floor and drink some ram's blood and please God about as much.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:40AM
That's the best you got? That's not even funny.
Belloc| 7.29.11 @ 8:32PM
On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies! Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:
"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."
During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:
"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."
From the time that Calvin had him arrested on August 14th until his condemnation, Servetus spent his remaining days:
" ... in an atrocious dungeon with no light or heat, little food, and no sanitary facilities."(10)
Let it be noted that the Calvinists of Geneva put half-green wood around the feet of Servetus and a wreath strewn with sulfur on his head. It took over thirty minutes to render him lifeless in such a fire, while the people of Geneva stood around to watch him suffer and slowly die!
Belloc| 7.29.11 @ 8:36PM
The more things change, the more they stay the same. There are still rabid "reformers" among us who are chomping at the bit to fire up the "half-green" wood and prepare the sulfur wreaths for the God fearing!
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 8:42PM
Nope, your lying~ that's what your people did.
I simply will expose your cult for what it is.
It is anti-Christ and anti-God.
Your cult murdered millions upon millions of my brethren who chose Christ over your phony Popes and hierarchy.
Your Religion never repented of its false doctrines which under SAME put to death millions of Bible believing souls.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 10:23AM
I have seen the error of my ways.... Please, everyone, PRAY THE ROSARY FOR ME!!! Every day, for my soul! Ask every Priest you know to say Mass for my soul!
Pray for me even more, that I might join the Carmelites.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 2:56PM
Not my post.
Clint/Tim* and his army one one, I suspect.
LOL.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:25PM
"Your cult murdered millions upon millions of my brethren "
what is your source for this millions upon millions, or is this another lie.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 10:53PM
Do your research if you care. I posted a few links.
And I don't lie.
YOU lie in each and every one of your vile, hateful posts.
You are disgusting.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 8:38PM
And this negates the Inquisitions by the Papacy that went on for 600 years, about 50 million souls?
Typical cult defender!
If what you post is true, then it proves Calvin wasn't a real Christian.
And besides, I don't follow any of these middle men.
Christ saved me, not Calvin.
Can you testify to same?
Can you admit anything?
Belloc| 7.29.11 @ 8:51PM
I'll admit that you are an historical illiterate.
The Roman Inquisition was separate and distinct from the state run Inquisitions like the Spanish Inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was an instrument of the Spanish state. It was a precursor to such state religious arms like Protestant Henry VIII's Church of England.
The executions of the Roman Inquisition are numbered in the hundreds. The Spanish Inquisition and the state Inquisitions executed several thousands.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 9:15PM
Well, well, well. It can always be counted on by your nasty ilk to hurl personal insults~ that you, Stuey?
Too bad you cannot admit what you really need to admit, though.
That your Religion and yourself are total and complete frauds who pervert the Word of God, and have yet to repent.
And just because YOU, an anti-Christian, says only thousands were tortured by your Religious slimebags~ doesn't make it so.
And why do you feel the need to defend them?
It's because you believe like they do. That Christians are heretics, and deserve it!
"Then I heard another voice from Heaven saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as Heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities." Rev. 18: 4 & 5.
Vlady| 7.30.11 @ 10:24AM
"I'll admit that you are an historical illiterate."
Oh brother, you don't even know the half of it.... If she were just an historical illiterate there might be some hope....
Belloc| 7.29.11 @ 9:33PM
If the Papacy had slaughtered 50 million souls the population of papists in Europe would have been wiped out. You wouldn't have any modern papists to slander and that would take all the joy out of your meaningless existence. So be thankful that you have a group to hate.
Your sham anti-Christianity doesn't amount to a hill of beans. It's strangely invigorating to watch a reforming sectary like yourself promote your modernistic religion of secularism and hedonism, while you grasp for "sola scriptura" to justify your delusions.
The gates of Hell will not prevail but it won't be for lack of trying on your part.
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 10:14PM
Belloc, your ignorance does not become you. Like the Mormons, when someone opposes you and tries to tell you where your false religion will take you, you call it hate.
I am hated by a number of people that can't handle the truth. But if caring is hating in your language, the I wouldn't want to be on the same continent with your type of hate. It would be too corrosive. I doubt even you would survive it.
While her number of deaths from the Inquisition are a bit, shall we say, on the high side, the numbers claimed by Catholic are a bit, also, shall we say, on the low side. In spite of your, and those of others, the inquisition was a church activity. The victim was then turned over to the temporal power for the execution of sentence.
Also, the dungeons of the Papal states were truly appalling. And it took very little to find yourself a beneficiary of their hospitality. Protestant, who happen to be Christians (there are some who call themselves Protestants who are not, such as McLaren and his ilk) decry John Calvin's persecution of Servetus (I question the claim that Calvin was even a Christian. He, after all, was trained by Roman Catholics at the University of Paris and taught a lot of aberrant theology). WE could also invoke the spirit of Augustine here as well, since he is the one that really started the persecution complex as the founding Roman catholic theologian when he called for persecution of the Donatists.
We could go on, and on, and on in the same vein. Almost all of the nonsense in the Western Church can be traced to Rome and her apologists. Most of it boils down to placing the Roman Church, and her traditions and pagan accretions, above scripture and Christ. That, in a nut shell, is why the RCC is a cult and not a legitimate expression of Christianity.
If you want to believe that's hate, have a ball. The truth, however, is not hate. It simply is. And your delusions, and evasion of that truth do not change that fact.
God| 7.30.11 @ 5:31AM
Thou :
"Protestant, who happen to be Christians (there are some who call themselves Protestants who are not,"
Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?
Quartermaster| 7.29.11 @ 10:14PM
Belloc, your ignorance does not become you. Like the Mormons, when someone opposes you and tries to tell you where your false religion will take you, you call it hate.
I am hated by a number of people that can't handle the truth. But if caring is hating in your language, the I wouldn't want to be on the same continent with your type of hate. It would be too corrosive. I doubt even you would survive it.
While her number of deaths from the Inquisition are a bit, shall we say, on the high side, the numbers claimed by Catholic are a bit, also, shall we say, on the low side. In spite of your, and those of others, the inquisition was a church activity. The victim was then turned over to the temporal power for the execution of sentence.
Also, the dungeons of the Papal states were truly appalling. And it took very little to find yourself a beneficiary of their hospitality. Protestant, who happen to be Christians (there are some who call themselves Protestants who are not, such as McLaren and his ilk) decry John Calvin's persecution of Servetus (I question the claim that Calvin was even a Christian. He, after all, was trained by Roman Catholics at the University of Paris and taught a lot of aberrant theology). WE could also invoke the spirit of Augustine here as well, since he is the one that really started the persecution complex as the founding Roman catholic theologian when he called for persecution of the Donatists.
We could go on, and on, and on in the same vein. Almost all of the nonsense in the Western Church can be traced to Rome and her apologists. Most of it boils down to placing the Roman Church, and her traditions and pagan accretions, above scripture and Christ. That, in a nut shell, is why the RCC is a cult and not a legitimate expression of Christianity.
If you want to believe that's hate, have a ball. The truth, however, is not hate. It simply is. And your delusions, and evasion of that truth do not change that fact.
Margie| 7.29.11 @ 10:43PM
Well worth the double posts!
Thank you, and well said.
I said 50 million because in the video I posted above, a former priest who became a Christian studied it intensely and he approximated.
I think you would appreciate listening to it.
Also, do you know about the book, Martyrs Mirror?
I posted a link to that too, above.
It is filled with the wonderful testimonials of the Anabaptists who were put to death by the Catholics~ all because they rejected the false teachings of infant baptism and sacraments.
Sad that the same spirit lives on to this very day.
Joe| 7.30.11 @ 5:33AM
WTF ?
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 6:14AM
Margie, 50 million for the SI is way high. The most conservative numbers are in the tens of thousands, while the higher numbers are in the low hundreds of thousands, but either way, that is certainly more than enough.
But the numbers are not as important as the fact that the RCC has never taken ownership of its crimes against humanity. Whether it be the SI, or everything else it ever did, the RCC rewrites its own history and this is the history that Catholics believe. They are in denial. In their world, it's all just a conspiracy to discredit the RCC, and either those things never actually happened, or someone else did it and the RCC was wrongly blamed. Essentially what the RCC does is quite clever. It takes the persecutions of which it is guilty, and turns everything around to the point where they are suddenly the persecuted ones. Remarkable, though evil.
Remember, the devil is a liar and the father of lies. The RCC is one big lie factory, turning out lies like the Japanese turn out cars.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 3:04PM
Well they killed for 600 years, sir.
Did you see the video I posted?
Think again!
They put to death Men, women and children. entire families and groups of people at a time.
600 years!
50 million is not far fetched.
But yes, I do know that they turn it all around and point the finger at us~ it's exactly what the Devil does.
That's why he is called, "The accuser of the brethren."
"And I heard a loud voice in Heaven, saying, "Now the Salvation and the Power and the Kingdom of our God and the Authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God." Rev. 12:10.
They, along with those murderers of old will share the same fate, unless they repent. Each person has the ability to reason and logic, and actually read what the bible says.
Or else be a member of the largest cult on earth.
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 5:21PM
Margie, I know that the RCC has done some of the cruelest things ever done to human beings, that they did these things for centuries, and that their victims number in the millions. I was only referencing the numbers I had understood to be the generally accepted range for the SI alone and directly - as in killed outright via torture, rather than just dying of disease, exposure, or starvation in an RCC dungeon somewhere during the SI. Personally I believe that the SI numbers for direct deaths via torture are in the hundreds of thousands, while total deaths during the SI is probably in the low millions.
Admittedly, these numbers may be on the low side - it's been awhile since I've seen the latest research - but I try to bend over backward to be more than fair to the other side - so I don't tend to go with the higher numbers unless there is a consensus in support.
But as I said, the numbers are less important than the fact that generation after generation after generation, these supposed "Vicars of Christ" could do such things in the first place, much less in God's Holy Name. The tortures were another thing they had leftover from their Roman pagan days.
At any rate, "Foxes Book of Martyrs" should be read by all Catholics. Of course, I have to remind myself that the only history Catholics believe is the one they've been fed by......(drum roll, please)...."the Church".
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 5:35PM
Understood.
Thanks for your comment.
Did you know they try and discredit Foxes book of Martyrs? They discredit, even more, a book called Martyrs Mirror.
Nick claimed it's mostly fiction.
The sad thing is, that because they never repented (the Papacy)~ they still teach the same false doctrines. If they would have truly repented, they would have to repent of the false doctrines, but they have not.
This is exactly why Christians are still so hated by them.
They believe they are right.
But!
God holds each of us responsible for what we choose to believe, and if we choose to believe a Pope instead of the Word of God~ we will not escape His Judgment.
"Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
2Th 2:13
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 4:18AM
Margie,
"Nick claimed it's mostly fiction."
Ummm..when did I do that?
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:26PM
"50 million is not far fetched"
Get help.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 10:51PM
You won't even acknowledge one soul that your Religion tortured and killed~ because you're in denial, and only interested in protecting it.
That's sad, and it makes you a sell out.
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 4:35AM
Margie, Quartermaster, and Mister Grady,
Your numbers are all wrong!
But, don't take my, or the Catholic Church's word for it.
The BBC (no friend of the Catholic Church) made a documentary called Myth of the Spanish Inquisition, in '94, which concluded that 3,000 - 5,ooo were executed, over 3 centuries.
I do not defend the Spanish Inquisition. Many abuses and atrocities occurred. But, the "millions and millions" or "hundreds of thousands" of deaths attributed to it are just Protestant propaganda and lies, that were started in the 16th century.
Hope that clears this up.
God Bless!
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:34PM
So now the BBC has cleared it all up!
LOL.
And there were many more "Inquisitions" than that one.
Over a period of 600 years!
How many innocent Christians do you think could killed over that time, hmm?
The one who is propagandizing, is YOU.
And of course I wouldn't take the murderous church of Satan's word for it, nor would I take the BBC's word for it.
God knows the number, and too too bad you are not on the side of the Truth.
The point is that your cult has never repented.
Why? How can I possibly say this?
Here's exactly why:
First of all, why did they torture to death millions of Bible believing Christians?
Even if they WERE "wrong", which they were not because they stood on the Word of God and the doctrine of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but let's just say they were wrong~
What gives ant disgusting Papist filled with pure hatred from Satan himself the "right" to MURDER people?
Since when is that godly?
In your earlier post~ like the good modern day Papal Inquisitor that you are~ seemed to actually justify Tyndale's and Wycliffe's murders by your Religious whackos.
Now~ so they killed Christians because they refused to bow the knee to the haughty and disgusting ones~ and the false doctrines~ that were unbiblical.
Why did millions upon millions of Christians choose to suffer and die rather than bow the knee to these devils?
Because they chose to die for their testimonies of the Word of God and the faith of Jesus Christ, rather than make a deal with the perverts. These are the saints that the God of the Bible speaks of.
And your Religion killed them!
Now~ here is the reason why I can say without a single doubt that they have NOT ever repented:
Because they STILL teach the SAME false doctrines they were teaching then that LED THEM to MURDER the Christians!
And you and every Catholic are taught the same false doctrines that lead you to lie for Satan. Because that is what you are truly doing.
There's one reason only that the Catholics so despise Christians~ and it is because of what you are taught.
LOVE means HATING sin. And I hate the sin that this Religion teaches. It is NOT the gospel of Jesus Christ.
"Let love be genuine; hate what is evil, hold fast to what is good.." Rom. 12:9.
"As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.
Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ.
For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man's gospel.
For I did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ." Gal. 1:9-12.
Nick| 7.31.11 @ 1:33PM
Margie,
Please, calm down. You seem to have blown a gasket over something that I neither wrote, nor implied.
I was not stating that you, Quartermaster, and Mister Grady were purposely lying when you made these assertions.
I was trying to inform you that it is you who has been lied to. And, that these lies started in the 16th century, propagated by certain Protestants of that time.
This is all I was trying to say, honest.
God Bless!
p.s. Wycliff died of a stroke. He was not "murdered" by my "Religious whackos." I could address your other points, if you would like?
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 3:19PM
I love it when a Papist tells a Christian to clam down in the face of the perverting of the Word of God.
Nick,
The Bible doesn't lie.
"Every word of God proves true; He is a Shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Pro. 30:5 & 6.
I know Whom I serve. It is the God of the Bible, and His Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.
I hope you repent.
Nick| 8.1.11 @ 11:21PM
Margie,
"The Bible doesn't lie."
I have never claimed that it does.
Belloc| 7.30.11 @ 1:55PM
The crimes of the so called "reformers" are too numerous to catalog.
The wars and slaughter instigated by the "reformers" so that German princes and English kings and queens could grab lands and riches (and regularize their relationships with concubines) are a black mark against these sectarians. The numbers slaughtered in their bloodlust dwarf the minimal crimes of Holy Mother Church.
However, the most evil and wide ranging crimes of the schismatics were the movements of modernity which they spawned. The "reforming" zealots are the begetters of all modern ideology.
These willful heirs of the gnostics are the inspire-rs of liberalism, communism and fascism. Their insistence that each man is the author of his own "truth" led to the degradation and death of the gulag and the gas chambers. The self will of the "reformer" is boundless. He/she creates new sects to fit each lowly passion that ails them. They hold up their idol of "sola scriptura" and mock God with it. Their multiple interpretations of Scripture are man made conceits to fit their ruling passion which is chaos and worldliness.
Now many of the modern heirs of this disease seek to justify themselves by appealing to the Patristic Fathers. This is absurd. The Church Fathers denounce them from every page. Yet still they try and justify themselves by appealing to patristics. Very sad to watch.Their false theology is wholly derived from Augustine, who they have twisted beyond recognition to justify their false gospel of self.
Holy Scripture would not even exist for them to exploit if the Roman Catholics had not defined the canon of the Bible at the Councils of Carthage 393 AD and Hippo 400 AD. Without Rome they would be flapping their jaws proclaiming the divine word of the gnostic gospels or the Essene Dead Sea Scrolls as the unalterable word of God.
A long history of evading the Truth. However, Holy Mother Church still calls to them with compassion. They answer by raging in the dark abyss.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 3:10PM
The point here is, Stuey, er I mean whoever you are~
Catholicism tortured and killed my brethren for 600 years. And for what? For abiding by the Scriptures and refusing to bow the knee to your cult leader.
And they have still not repented of their false teachings to this day~ and using you as a prime example~ it's members are still filled with the same hatred for Christians as it was then, so they are still producing the modern day haughty Papal Inquisitors like you.
You're a liar. But that's what your Religion is, One big lie.
And the difference between a Christian and a Catholic is that Christians call out their wayward and perverse, and do NO defending of them.
Liars do not repent, they do not admit they were even wrong! And that is what you are.
W| 7.30.11 @ 4:41PM
Everyone is a liar except margie. Watch out, she will issue a fatwa agaisnt catholics.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 5:23PM
You lie again.
W the liar.
The truth... the truth is, that you are the hater~ you reject the Word of God for your sick cult.
Your fellow modern day Papal Inquisitors are very pleased.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:27PM
do not hate you, feel sorry for you.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:24AM
Right, "W".
So you lie, insult, and demean those whom you feel sorry for?
I'd hate to see what you do to your friends!
Your personal attacks are despicable. I do not speak out against individuals (unless they are doing what you do first), but I speak out against false doctrine.
If you really cared to understand, you'd look at what I'm saying~ at what the Bible says (God's own Words), and you'd consider it.
If you were an honest person you would compare what the Bible says to your Religion, and admit that it's so wrong.
You accuse me of hate~ but I don't hate anybody.
I DO hate a Religion that teaches millions of innocents a false doctrine though, one that isn't Jesus' gospel.
I can't keep silent. You wouldn't either if you knew the truth.
If you are willing to choose to quit the lying and insulting, I am more than willing to have a decent conversation. But I can only imagine what you're going to say to this.
And if it's more of the same, I'll ignore you.
God bless. God says bless those who curse you, so I just did!
POST American| 7.29.11 @ 10:32PM
---And what will the RED Chinese regime
and the Globalists do when genuine knowledge
of what was done, and what's being done,
to the good people of China reaches critical
mass?
-----------------------------------------WHAT?
Lawrence D. Cannon| 7.30.11 @ 6:59AM
I'm not Catholic, nor do I particularily believe many of its tenets and doctrine. However, to say all their priests are pedophiles is ridiculous. There have been surveys who've showed that sexual wrongdoing is at about the same ratio with other denominations.
The reason the Catholics get so much publicity is because of their stance on celibate priests, as well as because their hierarchy is Conservative. You have as many pedophiles and pervs among the Anglican (Episcopal) church- yet there won't be any investigations there because THEIR church is much more leftist and pro-homosexual.
My personal dealings with priests have shown me many men who are kind, loving, yet strong and tough in their faith....the same with Baptist and Pentocostal preachers.
RCV| 7.30.11 @ 7:18PM
Any priest in the Episcopal Church who is a pedophile is expelled.
emo| 7.30.11 @ 7:56AM
Dont catholic societies like Italy and Spain have more corruption than protestant societies like Norway, Sweden, Germany, UK?
W| 7.30.11 @ 9:39AM
Yes, emo. Hitler is really an Italian-Spanish Catholic who moved to Austria and Germany and changed his name.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 9:51AM
You Could Ask The Church of Norway's Anders Breivik.
Just Don't Piss Him Off.
RCV| 7.30.11 @ 7:22PM
Ireland and Belgium, two strongly Catholic Northern European countries, just like Catholic Bavaria and Austria, have no more corruption than their Protestant brethren. The characteristic seems to be geographical and cultural, not religious.
Clint| 7.30.11 @ 10:06AM
Then emo, You could ask The Catholics Of Belgium Ireland, France, Austria ......
Belloc| 7.30.11 @ 11:30AM
The crimes of the so called "reformers" are too numerous to catalog.
The wars and slaughter instigated by the "reformers" so that German princes and English kings and queens could grab lands and riches (and regularize their relationships with concubines) are a black mark against these sectarians. The numbers slaughtered in their bloodlust dwarf the minimal crimes of Holy Mother Church.
However, the most evil and wide ranging crimes of the schismatics were the movements of modernity which they spawned. The "reforming" zealots are the begetters of all modern ideology.
These willful heirs of the gnostics are the inspire-rs of liberalism, communism and fascism. Their insistence that each man is the author of his own "truth" led to the degradation and death of the gulag and the gas chambers. The self will of the "reformer" is boundless. He/she creates new sects to fit each lowly passion that ails them. They hold up their idol of "sola scriptura" and mock God with it. Their multiple interpretations of Scripture are man made conceits to fit their ruling passion which is chaos and worldliness.
Now many of the modern heirs of this disease seek to justify themselves by appealing to the Patristic Fathers. This is absurd. The Church Fathers denounce them from every page. Yet still they try and justify themselves by appealing to patristics. Very sad to watch.Their false theology is wholly derived from Augustine, who they have twisted beyond recognition to justify their false gospel of self.
Holy Scripture would not even exist for them to exploit if the Roman Catholics had not defined the canon of the Bible at the Councils of Carthage 393 AD and Hippo 400 AD. Without Rome they would be flapping their jaws proclaiming the divine word of the gnostic gospels or the Essene Dead Sea Scrolls as the unalterable word of God.
A long history of evading the Truth. However, Holy Mother Church still calls to them with compassion. They answer by raging in the dark abyss.
Margie| 7.30.11 @ 3:11PM
Catholicism isn't holy. God is Holy, and His Word is Holy.
Worship Him.
RCV| 7.30.11 @ 7:24PM
..and worship Him with your heart and soul, whether you are Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican or Protestant, Jewish, Mormon or nondenominational. God will hear your prayer to Him.
Mister Grady| 7.30.11 @ 8:14PM
That is incorrect. God only hears the prayers of the righteous, and no one is righteous in and of himself, so unless you have the righteousness of Jesus Christ, your prayer will not be heard.
And not a distorted Jesus. Not a modified gospel. But THE Jesus. THE Gospel.
Additionally, you have to pray in Jesus's name. Not to Mary, and not to saints. Jesus is your intercessor. Anyone else as intercessor is blasphemous.
Christopher Dawson| 7.30.11 @ 8:46PM
Evangelical Protestants pray to themselves. They seek uplift and subjective feeling. Shun these enthusiasts and heed Paul's Letters to the Corinthians. Do not luxuriate in division and disunity like the sectarians.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 12:13AM
Let's see. Your 1st sentence is a lie.
Your 2nd sentence is a lie.
Your 3rd sentence is a lie, all except the advice to heed the words of Paul, though they do not apply in the way you think they do.
And your 4th sentence is phony. Jesus says He came for division.
Remember, Jesus Himself said this:
"Do you think that I have come to give peace on earth? No, I tell you, but rather division;
for henceforth in one house there will be five divided, three against two and two against three; they will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." Luke 12:51-53.
OOh, how mean!! LOL.
Mister Grady| 7.31.11 @ 12:16AM
Christopher Dawson writes:
"Evangelical Protestants pray to themselves. They seek uplift and subjective feeling."
______________________________
The devil is a liar and the father of lies.
Moreover, you are highly presumptuous. You haven't a single, solitary clue what Christians pray to.
Christians pray to God - not to themselves, not to Mary, not to the saints - but to God Almighty, and if you do not repent of your lies, your bearing false witness, your blasphemies, your idolatry, and all of your other sin, you're gonna burn in hell.
There are millions and millions of Catholics in hell right now.
Christopher Dawson| 7.31.11 @ 9:53AM
True, but they are outnumbered by the infidel Muslims and the self-idolaters-the evangelicals.
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 2:02PM
False.
Evangelical Christians are the saints who were tortured and murdered in the millions by Catholicism.
They do not lie, they do not kill, they do not bear false witness.
The Catholic Religion~ because of the false doctrines they indulge in~ hate Christians~ just like the murdering Islamaists do~ they beheaded Christians like they do.
And they thought they were offering a service to God, just like they do.
"They will put you out of the synagogues; indeed, the hour is coming when whoever kills you will think he is offering service to God." Jn. 16:2.
Christopher Dawson| 8.1.11 @ 1:18PM
The delusions of the self-righteous "deformers" are eternal.
Your reservation with your father Beelzebub has been placed and approved.
RCV| 8.1.11 @ 11:28PM
Those weren't Catholics who burned " witches" in Salem or who slaughtered Irish Catholics while serving Cromwell's army; nor was Martin Luther a Catholic when he urged his fellow German Protestants to hunt down and slaughter Jews. Religious zealotry and the burning conviction that only you have the "Truth" and all the rest are unsaved heretics is what leads to religious murder. Each and every one of them fails to remember Christ's central teaching that all of the Law and the Prophets can be summed up in two directives: Love God with all your heart and soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. Leave the judgments to God, to whom we will all answer in the end.
Nick| 8.2.11 @ 1:24AM
Very well put, RCV.
Clint| 7.31.11 @ 10:32AM
"And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. "
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 1:56PM
They're praying FOR each other, dummy.
Not TO each other.
Catholicism is perverted.
Dominus Vobiscum| 8.1.11 @ 5:52PM
"Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness... [T]hey do not cease to intercede with the Father for us as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped." (Lumen gentium 49; cf. I Tim. 2:5. CCC 956)
RCV| 8.2.11 @ 2:26AM
God hears the prayers of all his creation, and isn't limited in His love like you, MG. He feels the pain of every sparrow that falls.
W| 7.30.11 @ 10:30PM
RCV, you tried.
It is hopeless with this crew.You either believe what they say, or your are damned. You have the same result saying that to a radical muslim.
Mister Grady| 7.31.11 @ 12:22AM
No, W, it's not what I say that matters. It's what the BIBLE says that matters. That you really do not understand this is something that will send you to hell......unless you become born again from above. Period!
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 7:44AM
No, W, it's not what I say that matters. It's what the KORAN says that matters. That you really do not understand this is something that will send you to hell......unless you become born again from above. Period!
See, W? In changing one word in Mister O'Grady Potato Heads post, you see he could easily pass for a Muslim fundamentalist.
Mister Grady| 7.31.11 @ 4:16PM
Vlady,
You seem to me to be not very bright. You might want to try thinking things through before hitting that "SUBMIT" button.
You have yet - YET - to offer even one, single, solitary non-fallacious argument against anything I have said. That means you're unable to. Your entire framework is one of knee-jerk ad hominem attacks. I have repeatedly pointed this out, and yet you still - STILL - just don't get it.
You keep asserting that I am at one point like the KKK, or like a Nazi, or like a Muslim, or, I guess, all three rolled into one. All three of these groups were/are murderous, torturous groups. I have not once - ONCE - advocated such things. In fact, I have spoken AGAINST them. I have stood against heresy and for Biblical truth. That is all. Are you really so stupid as not to see this?
The Bible does not allow killing unbelievers; whereas the Koran commands it.
The Bible encourages praying for unbelievers and telling them the truth, even if that truth hurts their feelings; whereas the Koran specifically allows the raping and/or beheading of infidels.
Anyone calling themselves a Christian and committing murder in God's name is not a Christian and not doing His will as clarified in the Bible; whereas muslim fundamentalists are terrorists and they are following the Koran word for word when they commit murder in God's name.
Question: What group of people in the past committed massive atrocities against humanity in Jesus's name?
Answer: The Roman Catholic Church.
So, if you want to make a like-for-like comparison of cults that murder and torture people for not professing that cult's belief system, you could easily see the similarities between muslims and the RCC of the past.
I wonder, are you STILL glad you decided to make an asinine moral equivalency? Or do you feel stupid, now that it has come back to bite you, big time?
At any rate, you are welcome to your obtuseness and your disbelief. And unlike the RCC and Islam, I would never advocate killing or torturing you because of it. Christians PRAY for their enemies. Not kill them. Nevertheless, I haven't the slightest shred of an inkling of a doubt that you will STILL……NOT……GET……IT.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 9:18PM
"You have yet - YET - to offer even one, single, solitary non-fallacious argument against anything I have said. That means you're unable to. Your entire framework is one of knee-jerk ad hominem attacks. I have repeatedly pointed this out, and yet you still - STILL - just don't get it."
My goal has never been to offer even one, single, solitary non-fallacious argument against anything you have said. Congrats, you just made a complete jack*ss out of yourself. Course, based upon your "intellect" presented thus far, it wasn't hard.
Clint| 7.31.11 @ 10:41AM
Neither Does Your Flawed Egotistic Eisegesis Victor Grady.
Mister Grady| 7.31.11 @ 4:27PM
A Catholic telling a Christian that he has a flawed eisegesis? And on top of that, you're too feckless to demonstrate those flaws?
With their gross, long list - their VERY long list - of things that Catholics have added to their extra-Biblical heresies, idolatries, and blasphemies - and you're gonna telling me something about Biblical interpretation?
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 2:06PM
You cannot serve two masters.
It's either the Truth or a lie.
You cannot be something that does not agree with the Bible and call yourself Christian.
And it isn't me that says so, it's God:
"He who does not love Me does not keep My Words; and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's Who sent Me." Jn. 14:24.
"It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." Jn. 6:63.
Christopher Dawson| 8.1.11 @ 1:31PM
Your subjective and individualistic "interpretation" of the Bible will be used as kindling to keep your flesh in a constant state of "well done" while you enjoy the eternal hospitality of Belial.
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 4:05PM
So, you don't like what the Scripture says? You have a problem with serving two Masters?
You're a joke.
I didn't interpret anything.
I quoted the actual Words of God to prove what He actually says.
All you have is vileness and hate toward Him and His own.
Disgusting liar!
Christopher Dawson| 8.1.11 @ 5:45PM
I reject your golden calf of sola scriptura
twisted into a prop to be used to
propagate the anti-church.
We know who heads that up.
You need to stop looking behind you like Lot's wife and seek the kingdom. There is still time even for a dissembler like you.
Margie| 10.26.11 @ 1:57PM
You reject that the Scripture is the source where all Christians learn from? You allow the false and unbiblical teachings of men?
No surprise there. It's what Catholics are taught to do by the lying Papacy.
But the God of the Bible says this:
"But even if we, or an Angel from Heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:8 & 9.
POST American| 7.30.11 @ 10:36PM
---------------AGAIN
WHAT will the Globalists (Soros, Strong, Bush, Rockefeller, Rothchild etc.) do when the good people of China realize what was done to them,
is being done to them, will be done to them.
---------------------------------------------WHAT?
WHAT---------------------------------------------?
----------------------WHAT?-------------------------
Christopher Dawson| 7.31.11 @ 10:04AM
"Is Christ divided?" (i, 13). "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no schisms among you; but that you be perfect in the same mind, and in the same judgment" (i, 10). He devotes four chapters to the reprehension of their divisions, which did not really amount to anything constituting formal schism or heresy. They met in common for prayer and the participation of the Blessed Eucharist. "Know you not that you [the Christian body] are the temple of God . . . but if any man violate the temple of God [by pulling it to pieces], him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are" (iii, 16, 17). "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the body, whereas they are many, yet are one body, so also is Christ. For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free" (xii, 12, 13). [Here follows the allegory of the body and its members, xii, 14-25.] "Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member" (xii, 27). "And God hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets . . . Are all apostles?" (xii, 28-31). "For God is not the God of dissension, but of peace: as also I teach in all the Churches of the saints" (xiv, 33). "I have sent you Timothy, who is my dearest son and faithful in the Lord, who will put you in mind of my ways, which are in Christ Jesus: as I teach everywhere in every church" (iv, 17). "But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor the church of God" (xi, 16). "The gospel which I preached to you . . . and wherein you stand; by which also you are [being] saved, if you hold fast after the manner I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain" (xv, 1-2). "For whether I, or they [The Twelve Apostles], so we preach, and so you have believed" (xv, 11). "The churches of Asia salute you" (xvi, 19). All 1 Corinthians.
Give up your idolatry of self and save yourself from the pit! The schismatic is an abhorrence to God!
Margie| 7.31.11 @ 1:55PM
"But even if we, or an angel from Heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:18.
Vlady| 7.31.11 @ 2:25PM
Woops... You better watch it Margie dear... That sounds like it might come back to bite you in your a... Ahem.... Behind.
Mister Grady| 7.31.11 @ 4:43PM
And yet, Mr. Dawson, those verses only apply to the Christian body of believers. They don't apply to pseudo-Christian blasphemous cults which have perverted and downright ignored the Word of God in favor of the words of man. There is not a single Biblical directive which tells Christians to allow Satan's lies to go unchallenged.
The RCC is a liar. Catholics are liars. Lies about the Bible. Lies about the Gospel. Lies about their history. And lies about their worship. And because of their lies, they do what they have always done: try, in vain, to shut down those who expose them. But it will not work. It has never worked. And it will never work.
The Devil is a liar, and the father of lies. And just as in Genesis, he loves trying to use God's Word to deceive and manipulate man. That is what you have done here, Mr. Dawson, because, like the pharisees, you are of your father, the devil.
Nick| 8.1.11 @ 12:42AM
Mister Grady,
"And just as in Genesis, he loves trying to use God's Word to deceive and manipulate man."
The same could be said about you and Satan, sir.
You are violating Christ's command to call no man "master" from Matthew 23. Didn't you know that "Mister" is a form of the word master?
Better start repenting! Ha-ha!
God Bless!
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 4:01PM
It isn't funny, Nick.
And if you want to practice what you preach and become a Christian~ you'd better repent of calling the Pope the "Holy Father".
He's about as holy as you are right now.
Nick| 8.1.11 @ 11:20PM
Margie,
I'm already a Christian. Not a very good one, in my youth. But, I have improved, however slightly. So, I have personal experience as someone who, at one time, regularly rejected Christ's love, and, then, thanks to prayers from my family, finally embraced Him.
I still fall down, often. But, as a child of God, I know His Mercy is always there for me. All I have to do is ask, and I will receive.
I have no need to repent. And neither does the Holy Father. Have you repented for calling people mister and teacher?
Also, you need to correct the record, from above. I never claimed that Martyrs Mirrors is "mostly fiction," as you wrongly asserted.
God Bless!
p.s. I thought it was funny. Boy, tough room! Ha-ha!
RCV| 8.1.11 @ 11:31PM
It was pretty funny - light and clever and a noble attempt to turn down the heat.
Nick| 8.2.11 @ 1:27AM
RCV,
Thanks.
I was beginning to feel like Rodney Dangerfield.
"I tell ya', I don't get no respect, no respect at all!"
Christopher Dawson| 8.1.11 @ 1:24PM
Holy Mother Church is eternal. As we, the blessed and saved enter in eternal communion with Christ, perhaps I'll be vouchsafed a glimpse into the diabolical pit that is reserved for you and your breed. I will glory in God's magnificent justice.
Margie| 8.1.11 @ 4:00PM
Spoken like the modern day Papal Inquisitor.
You're disgusting!
Christopher Dawson| 8.1.11 @ 5:46PM
Yes the spirit is like poison to the worldly. How you spit it out.
Margie| 10.26.11 @ 1:58PM
"But even if we, or an Angel from Heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.
As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:8 & 9.
Christopher Dawson| 8.1.11 @ 1:24PM
Holy Mother Church is eternal. As we, the blessed and saved enter in eternal communion with Christ, perhaps I'll be vouchsafed a glimpse into the diabolical pit that is reserved for you and your breed. I will glory in God's magnificent justice.
Belloc| 8.1.11 @ 1:36PM
CD those sentiments are so nice, they were worth saying twice!
Mister Grady| 8.2.11 @ 2:50AM
Don't worry Christopher. Unless you get saved, you're gonna get a lot more than just a glimpse of that diabolical pit. You can join Pope John Paul II and all of the other Babylonian priests.
"Holy Mother Church" is a harlot, drunk with the blood of the martyrs.
Repent!
RCV| 8.2.11 @ 5:58PM
If there is any one person from the 20th century I'm confident is in Heaven, it's Karol Wojtyla. And I'm also pretty sure you won't be meeting him in the afterlife, Mr. G.
Jimmy Bulger| 8.1.11 @ 3:02PM
MG, the Devil's instrument is the hayseed pope of a minister who feeds you these talking points. Take a time out from your snake handling and investigate Church history before you continue embarrassing yourself.
Jimmy Bulger| 8.1.11 @ 3:02PM
MG, the Devil's instrument is the hayseed pope of a minister who feeds you these talking points. Take a time out from your snake handling and investigate Church history before you continue embarrassing yourself.
Mister Grady| 8.2.11 @ 2:46AM
Whaaaat?!
Jimmy Bulger| 8.2.11 @ 9:39AM
You're a hayseed and a snake handler. Do I have to draw you a picture?
Mister Grady| 8.2.11 @ 3:02AM
Evil hates light, and as the light is shined on the bloody, blasphemous, idolatrous, pagan RCC, you see demonic writhing, arrogance, and lying.
Christians have the Bible and history on their side.
Catholics have only the words of bloodthirsty pagans.
Your lack of Biblical justification exposes you.
Your history and need to rewrite it exposes you.
Your lies, ignorance, and arrogance exposes you.
Your cowardly and stubborn refusal to compare your religion to the Bible exposes you.
Your present and historical hatred for the Word of God exposes you.
Your centuries of mass murder and torture exposes you.
Your lack of courage to confront the obvious adding to and taking from the Word of God exposes you.
The RCC is of the devil.
Repent!
Jimmy Bulger| 8.2.11 @ 9:38AM
More of your pure ignorance .
Your Protestant cul de sac is deluded and a product of pride.
Christ spits you out.
Your brothers Belial, Beelzebub, Azazel, Samael, Abaddon, Leviathan applaud you!
Nick| 8.3.11 @ 9:34AM
Mister Grady,
Didn't you claim, falsely, that "Catholics can't defend their unbiblical practices"?
And yet, I have defended the Catholic Faith, and all I've received from you are non-responses. Can't you answer simple questions?
W| 8.3.11 @ 3:08PM
Nick, you are wasting your time being civil and nice to these bigots. Their views about Catholics are identical to the KKK. Their belief that they are 100% correct about all religious matters and they have a direct line to God is identical to the radical muslims. They distort history, they lie, such s that Catholics killed 50 million protestants. imagine 50 million.
They seek to inflame religous hate. Normal, well adjusted, rational people do not speak like them.
Nick| 8.3.11 @ 4:01PM
W,
I appreciate your frustration with those who attack us. But, Christ told us that we would be hated for what we believe, remember?
So, I'm just trying to practice a little Christian charity. The best counter-attack to hate, is love, after all.
God Bless!
W| 8.3.11 @ 5:21PM
Nick, you are right about the love, but it is also fun and instructive to mock and ridicule them.
Nick| 8.4.11 @ 10:27AM
W,
Yes, mocking and ridicule are effective to use against one's enemies, in certain situations. But, I don't consider fellow Christians as enemies, or, at least, I try not to do that.
Our job is to defend the Faith and spread the Truth of Christ by sharing His Good News. It's hard to do this when both sides are ridiculing and calling names, I have found. I'm definitely not guiltless here, nor, am I casting the first stone. I'm only offering some friendly advice, that's all.
Just ask the Holy Spirit to give you patience and understanding.
And, yes I'm from the Detroit area.
God Bless!
W| 8.4.11 @ 2:10PM
Nick, I agree with fellow Christians, but they are not Christians. They don't talk like Christians, I don't know how they act, but the talk is definetely not Christian. Keep up the good fight, and will not cast the first stone, but will reply to they usual attacks if necessary. Will take your advice.
Years ago I spent time in East Detroit, with relatives, past 8 mile, and up to 15 mile. Many relatives worked at Ford and Chrysler. Last time I drove up Gratiot from Kennedy or Cadillac Square, it looked bad.
Nick| 8.4.11 @ 2:48PM
W,
Gratiot is still bad up past 8 Mile. But, there is a great Catholic Church at about 6 Mile, Assumption Groto, where many miracles have occurred attributed to Our Lady of Lourdes, because a replica of the Lourdes Grotto was built at Assumption.
Hope I wasn't too preachy. Ha-ha!
God Bless!
W| 8.4.11 @ 8:22PM
Thanks, will stop there next visit in the motor city. is the Eastland shopping plaza still there?
Nick| 8.4.11 @ 11:50PM
W,
Yes, Eastland is still there. I don't know how much business they're doing. A lot of malls have taken big hits in the metro area.
W| 8.3.11 @ 5:27PM
p.s. did you say you are from deeetroit?
Nick| 8.6.11 @ 11:34AM
Margie,
In case you're interested, and I think you are, I have responded to several of your comments, since you lasted posted on this thread.
God Bless!