The Right Prescription
Baby Blues
Giving birth is wonderful — but at what price?
“We” just had a baby. I say this, for it is apparently the new normal for fathers to claim equal credit for the event even though it clearly and undeniably resides with my wife. But hey, green is the new black, thirty is the new twenty, and some of us are more equal than others. Get with the times.
Anyhow, while smoking cigars and quaffing tumblers of scotch in the antechamber, I was contemplating the economics of childbirth and the healthcare market in general. Not sure what my bride was contemplating, but judging by the choice of epithets it wasn’t as esoteric. I digress.
We are covered, as military reservists, under some kind of labyrinthine healthcare program that is by all accounts a “good deal.” In fact it looks an awful lot like the proposed national coverage we can all expect to enjoy in the near future. Not having the constitution to digest red tape, I have obligingly pawned the management of this program entirely onto my wife. She spends a yeoman’s lifetime attempting to update profiles, correct and re-correct mistaken records, explain legitimate claims, and wheedle a helping hand from someone, anyone, who speaks intelligibly over the phone. Sure, the system is inadequate, inhuman, and inefficient, but at least someone else pays for it.
During “our” labor, which I’ve always viewed with the same hallowed respect reserved for pitched infantry action, I was drawn into a trembling fury by the cool incompetency of the check-in. The check-in desk takes up more real estate than the delivery room and is inhabited by a species of fast-typing harridan guarding the gates of triage. Apparently our insurance card didn’t match expectations and we spent a good quarter of an hour (my wife claims it was longer…) calling back and forth with Tricare Reserve Select to assure the hospital (which she had visited continuously for months) that we were in fact real people with real coverage. We were eventually granted admission and didn’t make any interesting headlines, but the foul taste of absurdity remains.
Fast-forward a few hours (Glenfiddich time), and all is well in the recovery room. Surrounded by the miracles of modern medical technology, “we” and the infant were poked, prodded, tested and molested to our heart’s content. Now we were getting our money’s worth. In an odd moment we discovered that buried in the fine print of the piles of paperwork was a note regarding “Private-payer Delivery.” The cost of safely delivering a functioning addition to the human race is around $1,800 if you care to be so bold as to go it alone. That seems a little steep but considering the folks involved, I’d probably pay that over the discount option of a five-hundred rupee field-delivery in Gujarat.
But here’s the kicker. Eighteen hundred dollars is just for your average, hum-drum, no-frills delivery. Like a new car, it’s the options that get you… Turns out, with nobody so much as asking us, we were regaled with every extra, luxury, and superfluity other people’s money can buy. Extra blood tests “just to be sure,” three hot meals a day delivered steaming to the door, an additional two days of hospital hospitality, linens, name-brand infant formula in expensive bottles, even a nifty pull-out couch for the new dad…
In fact (and this is where my antennae started to tingle), a helpful lady strolled in one morning with an expensive-looking cart laden with electronic gizmos. She wore scrubs and an air of authority, so we meekly acceded to the “standard” hearing test. Some other tortuous procedure to “stimulate” our poor baby no doubt, but who wants to find out their kid is hearing impaired after they leave the hospital? A lengthy wait for the deposed daddy, an official-looking “Quiet Please, Hearing Test in Progress” sign on the door, a flurry of terribly necessary paperwork and we’re through another hurdle.
Well, as it turns out, this “nurse” was in fact a private contractor working within the bowels of the hospital preying on signatures authorizing payment from insurance companies. I like to think I’m no fool; if someone else is buying, I don’t pinch pennies. All the extras were really nice, particularly the couch. The procedures undoubtedly contribute to the extraordinarily low rates of infant mortality and disease that plagued previous generations. But that extra margin of safety and health lies at the end of a hockey-stick shaped diminishing-returns curve. What’s missing here is price. At no point during this process were we interested or even aware of the cost. Our blissful ignorance stopped up our ears, shielding us from that irritating sucking sound that is our national healthcare binge.
Put it this way: if instead of nationalized healthcare we had nationalized vehicle provision (“Congratulations! Your five-year plan is up and you are entitled to a brand new Yugo!”), do we think the average consumer would choose more or fewer “options”? And therein lies the rub. For all the complaints about the “exorbitant” costs of healthcare, finger-pointing at insurance companies, and foul calls on Big Pharma, what’s lost is the realization that we have found the spender and he is us. Our delivery, which apparently could have been safely accomplished for the equivalent of some ‘bling,’ cost, I conservatively estimate, well over $10,000. To whom, I’m not quite sure. You, I guess.
This is of course not the whole of our problems in healthcare. I’m certain there are inconsistencies, collusions in industry, and any number of shady practices and nefarious dealings. But if we’re looking for salient causes, one that cannot be overlooked is the fact that individuals, removed from price signals, are consistently over-consuming resources in healthcare. According to experts, Americans are spending somewhere near double what they would if they were actually paying attention to costs. I have heard a number of central-management type solutions to our healthcare problems, but none of them promise cutting those costs in half…
When price ceases to be an issue, we all (patients, doctors, bureaucrats, even healthcare insurance providers) bear the collective and tragically unnecessary burden.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (50) | Leave a comment
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Paul Kotik| 7.26.11 @ 6:19AM
My old lady just popped out our first in April. No hospital, no doctors, no nurses, no insurance card snafus.
She gave birth to our daughter at home, in the same room we'd got her. Two fantastically competent midwives attended. The pregnancy had been followed rigourously by the senior midwife, with neccesary - neccessary! - blood work and imaging along the way to rule out problems.
I mean, nobody was sick, so why get doctors, nurses, hospitals and insurance ladies involved?
We paid cash. $5,600 bucks, soup to nuts. Delivery took 14 hours, the last few of which were spent in a water-filled tub I'd inflated. It was interesting as hell, and all meaningful and stuff. No kidding, really. We're not kumbay-singing, tree-hugging snots into all that wierdo stuff. We're pretty down-to-earth folk. But this was some great thing. Really, really great.
Midwives nowadays know their stuff. I guess it varies from state to state. Our great state of Florida doesn't have too many laws, but the ones it has are pretty good and the ones regulating and licencing midwives seem to do the trick.
I'm just sayin'.
PJ| 7.26.11 @ 9:45AM
As mother who has been through the au natural birthing process 4 times & was quite coherent during the events taking place around me while I was alternating the breathing, screaming, & pushing, I wouldn't be caught dead giving birth in any place that is not reasonably clean which includes homes. Remember germ theory. I also remember medical history where there was high rates of infant & maternal mortality using midwives & giving birth at home.
Some are just plain lucky that there were no unforeseen complications during the home birthing process. I wouldn't trust any midwife to take care of the unforeseen complications.
Just to let you know I am totally against unnecessary c-sections but this procedure does have its uses. I would not trust a midwife to perform a c-section on me if the procedure was necessary to save my life or my baby's.
And please don't argue that 3rd world countries are using midwives all the time. We don't have any idea on the mortality rates nor the physical problems surviving children are living with because of midwifery.
masly | 7.26.11 @ 12:33PM
Hmmm... insurance generally doesn't pay for care in this area. Do we see a pattern here? I'm speaking of cosmetic plastic surgery, of course!
I am a 28 years old doctor, mature and beautiful.and now I am seeking a good man who can give me real love , so i got a username Andromeda2002 on--s'e'ek'c'ou'ga'r.c óm--.it is the first and best club for y'ounger women and old'er men, or older women and y'ounger men,to int'eract with each other. Maybe you wanna ch'eck 'it out or tell your friends!
jolizoom| 7.26.11 @ 3:37PM
masly, what is with your stupid tagline? Knock it off, already!
Paul Kotik| 7.26.11 @ 10:41PM
In the State of Florida, midwives do not perform C-sections. Licensed midwives perform regular screenings during the pregnancy, including consults with the MRI folks, and MUST turn the mother over to the care of mainstream OB-GYN if the risk score exceeds a threshold.
My home is certainly quite clean enough for childbirth. Hospitals, on the other hand, are notoriously septic and are the source of large and tragic numbers of iatrogenic diseases and accidents.
We do have rather complete morbidity and mortality data for midwives here in the US. It is very, very good.
I had two children in the 1980's in a super good, top line US hospital's birthing room. It was okay, but it was still a hospital. I'll not ever use a hospital or a doctor again for any process or condition that is not an illness or an injury. A normal pregnancy and delivery are neither of those.
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:11PM
Thanks, PJ.
When things go wrong in OB, they go wrong FAAAAST!
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 1:50PM
If you found out that you had a breech birth or any of the other 5 million things that can go wrong quickly, Paul, you'd understand why you would want the doctors involved.
Childbirth is not the safe situation it is today 100 years ago, and midwives didn't make those advances.
misha| 7.27.11 @ 7:12PM
actually, occam...
the problem with delivering children came about once men (doctors) became a part of the equation...about 100 years ago. prior to that the death rate of children being born with midwives was very low. doctors brought along germs from other patients seen that day...so, while mid-wives didn't make any advances, doctors were part of the problem that needed solving.
Appleby| 7.26.11 @ 7:08AM
I am currently looking into home care for Mama, and the one thing absolutely never mentioned is price. I am awaiting a call from Visiting Angels and I am sure they know that my first question will be WHAT WILL THIS COST?
Why dont they tell you that up front and save everybody a lot of work?
Have you considered| 7.26.11 @ 7:52AM
Appleby, the stated reason that doctors and hospitals do not post prices in menu fashion, is they have different pricing for different insurance programs. They don't want Blue Cross members knowing what Kaiser members have negotiated.
This is what price shifting is all about.
When Medicare pays say 5,000 for a procedure that Costs 6,000, the "loss" is shifted to the insured or uninsured. So the 6,000 cost of the same procedure is increased to 8,000 to make up the difference.
There was some talk of legislation that would require these prices be posted, but the lobbyists have effectively stopped this from happening, as it would clearly display, for all to see, the price shifting.
The author makes the best point though, in that when the price signal is not present, we typically prudent Americans can't factor it in, which encourages over consumption.
This is the strongest case for HSAs and stripped down plans.
Also, try going to your doctor and asking about price...they look at you as if you have two heads. Some will actually state "why do you care, it is no cost to you" . And there you have it.
Paul Kotik| 7.26.11 @ 8:39AM
It's worth noting that there's at least one area of medical practice in which price sheets are commonly posted - indeed, advertised! - and that in this area quality and choice are up and prices down. Hmmm... insurance generally doesn't pay for care in this area. Do we see a pattern here? I'm speaking of cosmetic plastic surgery, of course!
Paul Kotik| 7.26.11 @ 8:39AM
It's worth noting that there's at least one area of medical practice in which price sheets are commonly posted - indeed, advertised! - and that in this area quality and choice are up and prices down. Hmmm... insurance generally doesn't pay for care in this area. Do we see a pattern here? I'm speaking of cosmetic plastic surgery, of course!
rendite| 7.26.11 @ 2:45PM
Herein lies the problem: Medical care is just like any other good or service. THERE SHOULD BE POSTED (concrete) PRICES.
Truest statement today on American Spectator pages: Doctors have zip knowledge of what procedures, medicines, therapies, or overnight stays cost. NONE.
They always give the "deer in the headlights" look if asked about dollar costs and then very swiftly change the subject.
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 1:57PM
Rendite: If we gave everyone Medicare rates, we would not do well, and we would be forced to close.
Price shifting is rampant in our government squeezed healthcare system. And asshole attorneys push the "unnecessary" blood tests, because had there been complication, Paul (if he were the avaerage husband) would be on the phone immediately with" lawsuits are us"---and one of the first complaints would have been "why didn't you get a doc involved." (Any of the complainants OB/Gyns who actually know what is unnecessary?)
By the way, my hospital's daily charges are $1400/day for the stay. A month of Abilify will run between 500-600/month. Most SSRI antidepressants are generic and will run from $20-$100/month. The standard MRI is around $1000/scan. The price of most blood tests are around $140-$300. My hourly rate for my employer, with benefits, is probably close to $200/hr.
Thanks, Rendite. My job is to save money and make a profit if possible while providing superb care.
JimH| 7.26.11 @ 8:12AM
A few months after our first was born we received a bill of about $25,000 from the anesthesiologist. I told my wife ‘next time just bite down on the leather’. She then hit me.
Paul Kotik| 7.26.11 @ 8:31AM
JimH, I wish I could show you how unlike a wierdo hippy I am before I tell you that the home birth we did was a thing you might consider for next time. My old lady had been in labor for about 12 hours before she complained it was seriously uncomfortable. At that point I inflated the birthing tub, filled it with lukewarm water and in she went. Aahhhhhh! Relief. This hokey stuff actually works! I'm not saying there wasn't some hollering and fussing before it was all over - there was! I thought the neighbors might call the cops. But for all that, it was less than 24 hours later when she first mentioned doing it again. Under 6 grand. Happy, happy baby and a Mom who has completely fulfilled her womanhood. I know this route can't work so well for all women in all cases, due to various risk factors and the like. But if it can work for you - wow.
JimH| 7.26.11 @ 9:05AM
Thanks for the advice. Our daughter was born 19 years ago so the issue is unlikely to arise. Besides it was a high risk pregnancy delivered early via Ceasarian. I guess home birth is fine if everything looks good ahead of time and you have a doctor available just in case. BTW the insurance did finaly pay. It is insurance company behavior which helps make Obamacare look good to some people.
PolishKnight| 7.26.11 @ 2:14PM
JimH, I had a healthfund account deposited into by my employer. My out-of-pocket fees, provided my healthfund had a balance, was zero. It made dealing with bills VERY easy: Until that fund was 0, my co-pay was _0_. Period.
Nonetheless, nearly every medical provider I dealt with sent me a bill. It was very educational. I now know that nearly all of them overbill. I called the insurance company and they gave me cancelled checks (cashed check) numbers and I would call the provider, give the check number, and they'd promise to deal with it. Then the next month... ANOTHER BILL! I told them that I knew I didn't owe anything and why and then they dropped it. Who knows how many others paid up?
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:00PM
We set our fees higher than what insurance companies will pay when in private practice, so we don't have to have 5000 different fees. In reality, we are NEVER paid full fee.
But I never billed for something I was paid for. I had a great billing service that knew what it was doing.
PolishKnight| 7.28.11 @ 10:11AM
Note that I said "nearly all". After this, I checked all my bills and my dentist's checked out.
Going through a hospital bill, I saw an attempted charge for $20 for a single pill that usually goes for about 50 cents. I noticed that the insurance company gave them a buck.
That's a ratio of 20 to 1.
That's basically padding bills for people who are either unaware of the real costs or can't represent themselves. It's no wonder that people are sympathetic to deadbeats who simply choose to declare bankruptcy and not pay altogether.
It's a huge mess and something needs to be done about it. Not "anything" but something.
PolishKnight| 7.26.11 @ 1:47PM
There was a cute line from a film where a medical student said he wanted to be an anesthesiologist because he liked to "pass gas." Haha. I chuckled when I read a few years later than they commonly are paid $200K plus salaries.
Which begs the question: Aren't they really just passing gas after all? They are really overpaid technicians most of the time. Same thing with all the other stuff: It's not just the insurance hiding the true costs of medical care, but also the regulations and standards (written by the same people who profit from them) that limit the number of doctors and technicians and engage in price fixing that would make Detroit and the government unions proud.
PJ| 7.26.11 @ 4:01PM
You are quite wrong! Anesthesiologists are not overpaid technicians. I would not want any other person but a competent anesthesiologist administer the various anesthetics, a mixture of gases & IV, when I'm going under the knife! FYI when the patient is "sleeping" during surgery that person is considered to be in an induced coma. I hope you understand how dangerous this is & why anesthesiologists have 1 of the highest liability premiums in medicine.
PCC| 7.26.11 @ 6:39PM
Patient to anethesiologist: "You're paid an awful lot of money just to put me to sleep."
Anethesiologist: "I'm not paid to put you to sleep. I'm paid to wake you up."
Ole_Sarge| 7.26.11 @ 9:24PM
Being in the employ of Uncle Sam's Air Force, I had the occasion for a medical procedure, that required I be anesthetized. For what was supposed to have been an "easy" in and out, I was a guest in the base hospital for three days, and my husband had the Catholic Chaplain come by for an "official" visit. I had a real anesthesiologist (an experienced MD, not a nurse, not a technologist) and I still almost never woke up... Sorry, I WANT the guy or gal that went through the extras, just in case.
PolishKnight| 7.26.11 @ 10:50PM
I'm going to stick to my guns on this one. Here's why:
Certainly, nobody wants spoiled morphine tablets either. Or an improperly bandaged arm. Or outside of the medical field: truck drivers that don't know how to use their trucks to avoid accidents or fall asleep on the job.
Oh, wait, society seems ok with that.
When it comes to teaching or medicine, people are spooky and are willing to overpay for super-educated people and ultra-high tech machines even for procedures where risk is minimal and procedures are so well established, that they are largely technicians. If the gas is nitrous oxide, and I'm in a dentist's chair and I'm knocked out, that's done for a fraction of the amount in the hospital. Same gas, different cost. Aspirin doesn't cost $10 just because it's in a hospital. (Yes, that was on my bill.)
Also, as you all know, when it comes to plastic surgery, they put you under too and that cost is minimal. The professionals make more in a hospital not just because of illegals or insurance hiding costs or the FDA, but because people are allowing medical professionals to gouge them based upon their insecurities.
People love elites telling them that they have everything under control. Sure explains why people also tend to love socialism, doesn't it?
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:07PM
PK--no, NOT the same procedure---when you have your abdomen sliced open that's MUCH more invasive than a tooth extraction. Sorry, sir. I appreciate your comments, but you're IT, not MD.
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:08PM
The cost for plastic surgery is NOT that minimal. Platics makes quite a bit of money.
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:08PM
Sorry, Plastics. But overhead for insurance is usually around 30% of an MDs overhead.
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:09PM
Stick to your guns, sir. You are still wrong. And usually, PK, you are right. By the way, this is not my ox being gored---I'm a psychiatrist.
PolishKnight| 7.28.11 @ 10:02AM
And I respect your right to hold that opinion, Occam's Tool.
Regarding your retort that a tooth isn't the same as an abdomen. So what? The issue isn't what the surgeon is doing but rather what the anesthesiologist is doing. And that helps to prove my point: All the stuff that costs a buck in a doctor's or plastic surgeon's office costs several times more in the hospital. The same aspirin in the recovery rooms, the same surgical gloves, etc. Your bill will reflect the difference even if the services and materials are exactly the same.
I was thinking of this recently when talking with my wife whose friend works at McCormicks and Schmidts. The waitress does the exact same work she'd do at IHOP but gets paid several times more. Same job: pick up a plate, take an order, etc. but lots more pay. It's the reason I personally prefer to work with large companies. When more money is being thrown around, there's more to throw to the little fish such as me.
PCC| 7.26.11 @ 8:28AM
I've had three children in Hong Kong where maternity is not covered by employer-provided insurance and I paid about US$10,000 each out of my pocket; no complaints. My brother-in-law and his wife went to a government hospital and paid about US$125 for the delivery of their son; all of these included about five days of post-delivery hospital care. No matter how you slice it, the US is ridiculously expensive.
TrueBlue| 7.26.11 @ 12:10PM
That's more a result of sue-happy people over here causing prices to go up because of all the insurance and lawyer fees hospitals and doctors need to pay for sadly. If people were actually forced to pay for bs lawsuits the number of them would go down.
Suing a doctor for malpractice because something went wrong, through no actual fault of the doctor/hospital, is total bull. Even if the case gets thrown out, which it rarely does since many judges believe the liberal tripe about how evil hospitals, HMOs, and doctors are (some true, most not), it still costs them a good deal of money in lawyer fees (most hospitals keep one or more on retainer even, imagine the cost...).
THAT is what is driving up the costs of insurance and service in the hospitals.
canuckistani| 7.26.11 @ 1:32PM
What do you suggest? Giving doctors immunity or having government decide what the cap should be? "Tort reform" is another name for government dictated terms.
Interesting choices.
It's the same as people bitching about regulations on the coal industry and then waking up to flaming tap water and suing. Classic NIMBYism.
PolishKnight| 7.26.11 @ 1:59PM
At least the flaming tapwater people have a case. The biggest payouts are usually class action and then the lawyers fish around for millions of names of people who are likely unaffected. Then people like me get notices in the mail: "The offices of John Edwards just made a billion dollar settlement with X hospital or Y Financial institution over an error of $3 in your bill. The award is $1 million of which your share is 3 dollars and the attorneys get $40 million in legal fees for copying expenses and sitting on a private jet. To opt out (good luck), send this notice back..."
In any case, legal fees are one of many problems with out medical system including the cronyist medical union and schools that limit the number of doctors and technicians (see above), illegals, backdoor medicaid subsidies via inflating bills to other customers (does it really cost $10 for an aspirin out of a big bottle?), the FDA limiting competition from outside generic drug suppliers (once again, aspirin costs higher here in the drug store than elsewhere) and medical industry kickbacks for unnecessary technologies to doctors and hospitals that adopt them.
When my wife went to the ER, before I could raise my voice the doctor sent her in for a CAT scan and THEN an MRI and THEN an ultrasound. Then when the next doctor came in he said: "Well, this doesn't tell me anything. You should go to your regular doctor. Here's some pain pills. "
This wasn't some fly-by-night clinic. It was a prestigious hospital in the DC metro region. They ripped off my insurance company and then tried to come after me for more money (I then had to get into arguments with their billing and provide proof that their negotiated rates with the insurer was sufficient.)
When capitalists act like this and think a Dickens' fairy tale is acceptable business practice, it's no wonder some of them wind up in the Romanov's basement.
TrueBlue| 7.27.11 @ 1:16PM
I'm not saying they should have immunity, but they shouldn't be able to be sued because something went wrong through no fault of their own. The hospital already does an investigation to determine if the doctor was at fault so they know if they need to fire them or not.
The doctor is legally required to tell the patient, or their guardian(s), the risks before going into surgery or any other dangerous medical procedure. They make you sign a form saying you understand those risks before you go in, and then people STILL sue because one of the listed possibilities occurs! That's like suing the casino because you lost all your money, even though you knew it could happen when you placed the bet.
A good number of lawsuits are thrown out as baseless (which they SHOULD be!) but that doesn't change the fact that the hospital/doctor had to hire the lawyer in the first place, or pay huge yearly retainer fees.
Since you don't even have a clue what I would do in that situation calling my comments Nimbyism is pretty baseless. When I say something I apply it to myself just as much as I expect it to apply to everyone else (usually moreso). There are plenty of regulations that hospitals and doctors have to obey, if they didn't break or ignore those there is no basis for a lawsuit. That SHOULD be the end of it, but because of sleazy lawyers and entitlement-addicted people, it isn't.
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:05PM
90% of malpractice lawsuits are won by the MDs. 90% of cases of actual malpractice are never sued over. Great system.
PolishKnight| 7.28.11 @ 10:17AM
I have a friend who works as a nurse and did his internship at a major hospital in Los Angeles (when you see celebrities being taken somewhere, it's usually there.)
He is very social and able to gather a lot of secrets (he's former Soviet and has a knack for it) and he observed nurses and staff routinely covering up mistakes and problems to protect themselves from liability lawsuits.
That and my experiences with billing and with doctors whose thought processes were less advanced than my auto mechanics makes me view the profession as basically a "body shop". I respect the education and hard work that medical professions put in, but I don't view them as demigods.
I also view my own personal health as my responsibility and educate myself. I can't just go into the doctor's office and have him know everything.
PCC| 7.26.11 @ 8:35AM
Another non-US anecdote: my elderly friend was admitted to a private hospital in Hong Kong after suffering a stroke and the admitting nurse asked me if my friend had medical insurance and I replied, "No, he has money". They took my credit card and that was that.
canuckistani| 7.26.11 @ 1:56PM
The writer speaks of not knowing a program that cuts costs in half: there is one, Canada. Better outcomes and fewer tortious claims to boot.
Infant mortality and birth defects are both lower there as well. Pre and post partum programs covered. Paid maternity leave: 28wks in Canada, ZERO in the US - 20th out of 21 tracked OECD countries.
Breastfeeding rates also higher in Canada due to paid leave resulting in fewer infant borne issues like Asthma, allergies and growth curve problems. It is estimated to cost billions for the leave but several multiples higher in early child development and health of the mother, not to mention quality of life resultiung in fewer hospital visits in the important first year of the child.
PolishKnight| 7.26.11 @ 2:02PM
Great, we have about 25 million illegals who would just love to go over there for all that free healthcare. We'll bus them over the border.
Canada: The ultimate limosine liberal haven. It's all aboot the hypocrisy!
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:03PM
Not a problem, Canuck. the next time they have an infectious disease outbreak in Canada, no CDC.
PolishKnight| 7.26.11 @ 2:10PM
""We" just had a baby. I say this, for it is apparently the new normal for fathers to claim equal credit for the event even though it clearly and undeniably resides with my wife"
When a mother is unwed and likely to require financial support, don't worry, the state is quite quick to identify it as "his" child!
I had a debate with radical feminists who claimed that the patriarchy was evil and that a matriarchal society was ideal because, hey, women can do whatever men can and make babies. Look at nature!
Yeah, indeed I pointed out, look at the way that cats squeeze out kittens with absolutely no medical care whatever. Without men, women would be in grass huts squeezing out kids to midwives and then dealing with nature all on their own. Not enough food? Let a few kids starve to death and that'll fix the problem. Turn on late night TV and you'll see the matriarchy in action. Or just go to the inner cities in the USA.
Paul, don't sell yourself short. The breadwinner patriarch role is alive and well. We're the new "millionaires" that will be needed to keep the brave new socialist world going. We always have been.
rendite| 7.26.11 @ 2:57PM
The overall problem: For upright people who want to immediately take responsiblity for their bills, i.e. pay them right away WITH THEIR OWN MONEY, babies and birthing is now indeed a problem.
The large dollar costs makes any man in his 20's or early 30's tremble.
This article is "lowballing" the costs for a normal birth, all the tests in the months prior, with some "extras," and three overnights. Try upwards of $29,000 in this part of the country.
Factor in: New space for the baby, all the baby equipment, new foods, strollers, the follow-up check-ups, etc.
Thus, the logical choices are: 1) don't get married, or 2) just always use birth control.
And this will be why our birthrate will decline -- among the responsible who "pay their own way" in life.
We will have -- already do have -- significantly fewer newborns.
And this, too, is a national security/national existence issue.
PJ| 7.26.11 @ 4:33PM
You make it sound like having babies is such a chore & so expensive! Would you rather spend money on a beautiful defenseless little person or on your self?
New space for the baby --- what about sharing the master bedroom for the 1st yr or 2? Major tests exist for the high risk pregnancy. "Extras" you can always say no to. Three overnights--- that hasn't happened since the 1970s. Baby equipment--- stroller & bed, that's it. Baby food & diapers---- never heard of clipping coupons? Breastfeeding saves 1000s of dollars. After 3 or 4 months of using baby food for allergy purposes, can start with real people food. Baby clothes-- that's what the relatives & store sales are for. Never skimp on check-ups. If having more than 1 baby, can recycle a lot of the things from Baby 1.
If you're going to compete with Angelina Jolie then yes it will be expensive. Babies need a dry butt, food, a place to sleep, & protection from the elements. But most of all they need to be loved tremendously & they will love you in return. Isn't that what it's all about? (& propagating the species so that someone can pay for Social Security.)
rendite| 7.27.11 @ 1:19AM
PJ,
I think that overall we're on the same side. But I will chide you for being a poor reader. Do you see the word "chore" or "burden" anywhere in my post above?
What I am trying to point out is that the article's author is correct: Buyer beware! In this case, no, not the buyer, rather patient/mother-to-be beware!
You will be hoodwinked into "extras" and extra costs every step of the way -- during the pregnancy, at the time of delivery, and thereafter.
This does not end with the child's infancy. Or don't you see all those warning about how your child has most likely fallen behind if he or she is not crawling rapidly at ____ months, standing at ____ months, gurgling vowels at _____ months. Sure, it's modern day snake oil salesmen masquerading as health care specialists, but many parents fall for this and keep spending more. This doesn't end with the child as kindergartener, tween, and upwards.
Yes, alas, financial burden. Just like college has gone up exponentially in cost, so have all the steps in life for raising that infant in the womb to age 18 and then 22 and hopefully a life on his or her own two feet.
Unless you are not paying attention, this is in large part why births decline in modern world societies. Agrarian Third World societies don't yet see the "costs" and, yes, no-end-in-sight financial "burden" of each child. So births in Ghana and Nigeria are still 7-9 kids per family.
The barely 1 baby per couple birth rate of all Europe is not merely because all Europeans are so selfish and fixated on their adults only vacations.
Yes, each child is now a very expensive proposition in the USA. And...most parents who are smart are not just interested in one child.
I have no idea PJ why you or anyone would want to defend the explosion of medical care costs. They impact us in every way.
And that is the rightful theme of this piece.
Or...you must not be (yet?) caring for some seniors in your family.
Because, you see, the same couple that wishes a second or third child is probably today also providing a home for one or two of the grandparents -- and aiding with some/much their associated medical costs.
No easy task.
And, yes, one can be a thrift store superstar, coupon supremo, hand-me-down user, get the relative to babysit, hit all the sales, COSTCO etc., etc. Yes, ALL the tricks. Impacts the bottom line some but not entirely.
This is not selfishness; it is monthly kitchen table family budget calculations of what a man might expect to earn -- and what the future earnings will be in an economy in the USA that will -- now -- never bounce back. Never.
Otherwise, please stand up and cheer for the OctoMom, right? She's doing it all on her own, right?
A big part of the decline of the "West" is that we have made baby to child to adult rearing incredibly expensive.
So expensive that it prohibit the act of procreating.
Much of this fault lies in the health care INDUSTRY. Medical, dental, pharmaceutical, immunizations, medical-legal issues, etc.
Much of this is exactly what secular-liberalists have as part of their overarching agenda.
**The above is NOT a problem for the person who has no conscience about spending other people's money. I write this from the perspective of the American adult who sees it as his personal responsibilty to "pay his way" for all responsibilities in life.
PolishKnight| 7.27.11 @ 9:30AM
In the old days, it was affordable for the middle class to have more kids or at least 3 or 4. Here's how it worked:
The parents would send their sons to college and their daughters to a technical school such as nursing or business administration. The daughters would be married off by the age of 21 or 25, tops. Then, the grandparents would help out with babysitting (in addition to other stay at home/part-time mothers in the neighborhood who would share childrearing.) Housing was viewed as a lifetime investment to save money on rent and loans would be for 20 years, maximum. This was for a single family home, not a condo or townhouse which would be even more affordable. When the parents grew old, the children would help out and let the parents live with them for a while until they would put the parents up in a nursing home or small apartment paid for by their retirement funds.
The problem with having it all is that it becomes so unaffordable. Homes that double in price every 20 years made housing unaffordable. Same with college education. And women entering the workplace shot down wages and raised the age of women marrying and having children and therefore the costs of childbirth. And all the specialists and special machines that go "ping!" also cost a pretty penny.
It's still possible to survive in the states and have several kids if you're "cheap". The legal immigrants certainly know how to do it.
Mike| 7.26.11 @ 10:04PM
BTW the insurance did finaly pay. It is insurance company behavior which helps make Obamacare look good to some people.
http://www.summer-products.com
POST American| 7.26.11 @ 10:29PM
---Great piece.
BTW, check out ALEX JONES'S latest as
he gives a rundown on the vast and secret
program of animal/human hybrids ---NOW
ON RECORD.
Keep following them thar' capstone funded
and directed EUGENISTS kiddies!
--------------------------------JUST KEEP A GOIN'.
Lingerie | 7.27.11 @ 5:46AM
Lingerie Jual Lingerie
Occam's Tool| 7.27.11 @ 2:01PM
Polish Knight:
No, they aren't just passing gas---if you don't get enough oxygen, you die or are permanently damaged, and sue. Anethesiology is one of the highest risk areas of medicine.