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Purgatory’s Appeal

By on 7.1.11 @ 6:01AM

A letter about Tom Bethell’s “The Decline of Faith.”

RE: Tom Bethell’s The Decline of Faith:

Dear Tom,

Thank you for that article on the decline of faith. It was an enjoyable essay, and my reaction to it has nothing to do with schadenfreude, because the trends you cite worry me, too. What impressed me was how you covered a lot of ground in a little space, then added a dollop of wisdom. Writing like that spurs me into raising my own game when submitting work to the magazine. I meant to say so in the online comments associated with your essay, but was intimidated when I noticed that more than a hundred people had already weighed in on what you said by the time I read it. Not all of the respondents moved discussion forward — did a comic war over whether scripture has any warrant for eating pork really need to break out? — but obviously you touched a nerve that needed touching.

Christopher Hitchens does not correspond with B-list pundits like me, but I’m glad you quoted from at least some of what he’s emailed to you. I hope all who read Mr. Hitchens’ take on the so-called “invention of Purgatory” realize that his theology makes as much sense as clown shoes in a tango class. Purgatory does not involve “the possibility of some kind of appeal.” Rather, as Christians like Peter Kreeft have pointed out many times, Purgatory can be thought of as “heaven’s waiting room.” More formally, “final purification of the elect” is — per the Catechism of the Catholic Church, with which I think you are familiar — entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The backhand from Hitchens calling the doctrine of Purgatory an “invention” was likewise unwarranted, albeit predictable. Two clicks on the Web might have given Hitchens’ cockamamie “invention” thesis an “insuperable problem” of its own, while it tried in vain to explain why graffiti in the catacombs includes prayers for the dead, which make no sense if they’re already enjoying the beatific vision or eternally separated from God in Hell.

Richard Dawkins actually comes closer to the mark by summarizing Purgatory as a kind of divine Ellis Island, although I’m not persuaded he would have put the matter quite like that if he thought the whole doctrine were certifiably ridiculous. Not to get all “inside baseball” on people who’d rather play poker, but that the misguided Johann Tetzel sullied Purgatory by leaning too hard on the corollary doctrine of indulgences while raising money to fund the construction of Saint Peter’s Basilica does not mean that postmodern cynics like Hitchens and Dawkins know more about the Four Last Things than ancient heavyweights like Aquinas and Augustine.

Perhaps another reason for the decline of faith lies just there, in widespread ignorance of history. Looking forward is all to the good, but Christians ought to be able to look back as well, and the megachurches of my experience seem to have a problem with that, especially when they make a point of ignoring anything too closely associated with the “mackerel snappers” from which they’re spinoffs. For example, a popular church in my own town has a main campus and several satellite campuses. Its founding pastor, an eloquent gentleman on the dark side of fifty, said in a sermon (sorry, “message”) that he went to a Catholic Mass for the first time while visiting the Holy Land less than a decade ago. Perhaps that explains why the web site for his church now cycles through a banner saying “We are one church in multiple locations.” In less charitable moments, I’ve wanted to approach that guy with a Chick-fil-a sandwich in hand (peace offering!) and say something like “Dude! That one church in multiple locations idea? That’s two thousand years old, man!” Of course, syntax like that would betray both my California roots and my Roman Catholic sympathies; it’s not a conversation I’m ready to have yet.

You mentioned that religious faith is like a muscle that has to be exercised. I think the analogy is apt, and orders of magnitude better than comedian George Carlin’s attempt to paint faith as something like “a lift in your shoe” (meaning that some people need it and some don’t). Father Benedict Groeschel’s thoughts are especially helpful in this regard. You may perhaps have heard of him; he’s a legend among Catholic preachers and a fixture in the Bronx. In the gray habit he wears as a Franciscan Friar of the Atonement, Groeschel looks for all the world like a stunt double for Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings movies. At the end of his nonfiction book, “The Miracle Detective,” Randall Sullivan quotes Fr. Groeschel as saying, “Faith is a gift. It is also a decision. Accept the gift, and you’ll make the decision.”

That’s good stuff. Thanks again for inspiring such thoughts.
— Patrick O’Hannigan
North Carolina

About the Author

Patrick O’Hannigan is a writer in North Carolina.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (308) |

POST American| 7.1.11 @ 6:12AM

---STILL MORE Rockefeller Foundation
soft-program existentialism having nothing
whatever to do with scriptural, that is GENUINE,
Christianity or Judaism. Must say, their Tavistock
Institute set ups are looking a little lame these days, and
hopelessly retro. Sort of dismaying.

AGAIN, keep the focus on the destruction of
GENUINE religion thanks to the FREEMASONIC
agendas of the capstone foundations, NGO's,
proxies ---ie the 'shadow government'.

This TRULY IS and long has been the most sinister force
at work in the world this past century.

UNDENIABLE and ON RECORD

DO your own background----------------n SFY.

REALLY this is HORRIFYING INDEED.

TRULY

Alan Brooks| 7.1.11 @ 6:41AM

has someone been fluoridating your bodily fluids?
You are the KING of wingnuts.

lydia | 7.1.11 @ 8:42AM

I am a 28 years old doctor, mature and beautiful.and now I am seeking a good man who can give me real love , so i got a username Andromeda2002 on--s'e'ek'c'ou'ga'r.c óm--.it is the first and best club for y'ounger women and old'er men, or older women and y'ounger men,to int'eract with each other. Maybe you wanna ch'eck 'it out or tell your friends!
The Holy Spirit helps us over our lifetime to gradually love virtue instead of vice. The Apostle Paul calls this transforming our mind or being (spiritually) born again.

Rocky| 7.1.11 @ 10:45AM

Lydia: It is illegal to promote your prostitution
ring on the internet...If you need a client, just
call directly...1-800-Weiner

W| 7.1.11 @ 12:00PM

you mean client #9, Spitzer

Alan Brooks| 7.1.11 @ 6:41AM

has someone been fluoridating your bodily fluids?
You are the KING of wingnuts.

Quartermaster| 7.1.11 @ 6:16PM

I understand where the author is coming from, but purgatory is an invention of post-Nicene writers. As the Apostle Paul put it, in 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Augustine may have been a "heavyweight" but he also laid the foundations for the accretions made by later Catholics that made the Roman Catholic Church a pseudo-Christian cult. Aquinas did not go far enough, but he did lay the foundation for the reformation. There is no telling how far he would have gone had he lived to complete Summa Theologica.

C Smith| 7.2.11 @ 2:11AM

The “wisdom” of the early Church Fathers eventually culminated in “Fathers” of yet another tradition. Augustine, commonly regarded as The Father of Roman Catholicism, exerted unparalleled influence over what many describe as “Christianity.” His early years were consumed in youthful lusts culminating in adherence to a Gnostic sect. Although trying in later years as a Doctor of Doctrine of the Roman Church to distance himself from this heretical system, his works suggest an affinity with the Babylonian mystery religions so characteristic of Gnosticism:

"Image worship, the worship of a virgin, the mass, priest craft, all of these things were related, inseparably related, to the pagan custom of the day. … Baal worship goes clear back to the tower of Babel. It was at that time that there was a system created that when you read it and realize that God condemned it you will recognize the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH. … The teaching of purification by priestly absolution found its origin and its roots in paganism, not in Scripture. The power of men to forgive sin found its origin in paganism, not in the Scripture. The mediation of a woman found its origin and roots, not in Scripture, but in pagan origin" (The Valley Church, emphasis added).

Augustine, lacking the Hebrew and Greek skills of a scholar, continued to build on the sinking sand of Origen’s “Spiritual Israel.” Augustine spiritualized virtually everything: no literal Kingdom (the Church is the Kingdom), no literal Millennium (Christ’s reign within the Church is the Millennium), and according to his work The City of God, no literal New Jerusalem (the Church is the New Jerusalem). Dismissing the literal interpretation of Scripture, he fathered a doctrine subsequently referred to as amillennialism. And as an apparent consequence of Augustine’s handling of the Word of Truth, almost a billion people are involved in what The Valley Church describes as paganism:

"You know it … as the dark ages. Here you have the [Roman] Church at its peak of dominance in the world. And what do we have? We have superstition. We have spiritual, moral, and intellectual darkness. We have apostasy with all of the occult and the corruption of that period of time. This was the time of the rise of a church hierarchy, the time of the inquisition where under … the sigh of the cross, thousands of people were slaughtered in the name of Christ. … There is a true remnant within the Catholic Church who will be raptured. And God loves your Catholic friends, and your Catholic neighbors, and your Catholic relatives. He loves them like He loves the rest of the world. But these people have been bowing before an image that has its origin and roots in paganism, a priesthood that has its origin in paganism. And they have forgotten the centrality of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. And because of that God warns against this. How did it begin? It began with compromise. It began with allowing the social factors of the land in which the people lived to become a part of the worship of the church, God forbid that Valley Church should ever go that way" (The Valley Church, emphasis added).

And Augustine, perpetuating the anti-Semitism of the early Church Fathers in his Sermon against the Jews, casually but consistently misappropriates a sanitized rendition of Israel’s Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel, for the Church. He seems to have forgotten that there is salvation in none other then the Mashiach (Messiah) Yeshua ben David (Jesus, Son of David), or perhaps he never knew.

http://theisraelofgod.blogspot.....-jews.html

Quartermaster| 7.1.11 @ 6:16PM

I understand where the author is coming from, but purgatory is an invention of post-Nicene writers. As the Apostle Paul put it, in 2 Corinthians 5:8 "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."

Augustine may have been a "heavyweight" but he also laid the foundations for the accretions made by later Catholics that made the Roman Catholic Church a pseudo-Christian cult. Aquinas did not go far enough, but he did lay the foundation for the reformation. There is no telling how far he would have gone had he lived to complete Summa Theologica.

Henty Drummond| 7.1.11 @ 6:42AM

The thing about purgotry is that it makes sense. Anywauy, anything that old psychopath Henry VIII did'nt believe in must be true. Read Tolkien's Leaf by Niggle for a fine litaery allegory re. purgotry.

Skippy| 7.1.11 @ 5:32PM

I read somewhere that Tolkein loathed allegory.
This was back when the Rings films were being released and discussed.
Folks were trying to link the tale to Nazis in his time or Jihadis in ours.
But, as an illiterate, all I know is what I can't read in the papers.

Foxfier | 7.2.11 @ 10:49PM

Tolkien hated heavy-handed, obvious allegory-- like CS Lewis' stuff. Allegory where the message got in the way of the world making sense. (Example: how has anyone survived in Narnia if it's "always winter but never Christmas"-- where did the food come from?) That the Lord of the Rings had a LOT of things that represented a deeper meaning is something anyone with two brain cells to rub together can figure out. ;^p It wasn't just a story about short guys and jewelry....

Tolkien and Lewis apparently spent a lot of time arguing about which was better; that said, even the folks who assert that he loathed all allegory still admit "Leaf by Niggle" is allegorical.

Tim C| 7.2.11 @ 8:54AM

Of course it makes sense. By nature, all mankind seeks to become "right" with God, god, or the gods by doing something. Or not doing other things. The God of the Bible turns all that upside down. It is he who initiates, activates, and completes that which is able to restore us to a right relationship with him. It is his righteousness, not ours, which saves us - through faith. Not of works, in this life or the next.

Pall Leosson| 7.4.11 @ 9:00PM

Henry VIII believed in purgatory, and defended this doctrine to his dying day.

Tim C| 7.1.11 @ 7:49AM

Purgatory is fully an invention of man, giving him, like all other false religions, something he must DO to have a place in God's kingdom. The Bible clearly speaks of heaven and hell, and nothing in between. Hell is the reward for those who reject the full salvation which is a gift of God through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Heaven is the place for those who accept this salvation by faith, and trust only in the merit of Jesus Christ for their salvation. Our "purification" is work done by the Holy Spirit in the hearts of believers while they are here on earth. But in the end, heaven is ours entirely by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone. No waiting room needed.

Patrick O'Hannigan| 7.1.11 @ 7:56AM

Sorry, Tim, but Purgatory does not give man "something he must do" -- Christians from earliest times prayed for their departed brothers and sisters precisely because those who had shuffled off this mortal coil were no longer in a position to "do" anything. We do agree with each other that purification is a work of the Holy Spirit, however.It's on questions of mechanics and chronology that we differ, and those arguments aren't likely to be satisfied here.

Tim C| 7.1.11 @ 8:16AM

Patrick, that the concept of Purgatory is an invention of man is beyond dispute. It is not found anywhere in Scripture and the early church fathers do not speak of it either. Purgatory flies in the face of Justification by Faith, as do all other manners of works righteousness. We either enter the kingdom of God through our righteousness or God's. And the Bible clearly tells us that we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Our sins separate us from God and no amount of goodness on our part will fill that gap - in this life or in the next. Rather, we are fully saved by grace through faith in the atonement of Jesus Christ as our substitute. It is his righteousness, declared to us, which puts us back in right standing before God - not what we do to earn it. This makes Purgatory both unnecessary and in conflict with the message of the gospel. Nothing in this life or the next - beyond the grace of God - is needed for salvation and full position in the kingdom of God.

PaulyD| 7.1.11 @ 8:52AM

Tim C,
You are entirely correct. There is nothing in scripture about purgatory. It is entirely a Catholic CHURCH doctrine, not a biblical one.

Patrick O'Hannigan| 7.1.11 @ 9:00AM

We're at an impasse, Tim. The "not found anywhere in scripture" argument won't fly for multiple reasons-- the doctrine of the Trinity isn't found anywhere in scripture, either, by that name. Moreover, your bible has only 66 books, whereas mine has 73. And we appear to read a handful of passages (see, for example, 1 Peter 3:19-20) differently.

As to your contention that the early church fathers do not speak of Purgatory, you're tripping over the word again, because they do speak approvingly of prayers for the dead, which only make sense in the context of Purgatory. See Tertullian and John Chrysostom for examples. And you may have missed this in Augustine's famous "City of God": "Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by ‘some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment."

PaulyD| 7.1.11 @ 9:11AM

Patrick,

Yes, we are at the age-old Catholic-Protestant impasse. The scripture you refer to: 1 Peter 3:19-20, is looked at by Protestants entirely differently. I assume the "prison" referred to in the passage is considered to be the purgatory Catholics refer to. But Protestants believe the "prison" referred to is the bondage of sin the entire human race is held in. Us Protestant's believe Christ's salvation frees the elect of this world from that prison bondage. He did not come to free prisoners from Purgatory after they are already dead.

KyMouse| 7.1.11 @ 10:32AM

Heaven and hell are clearly and frequently discussed in the New Testament, and referred to by those names. Purgatory is not.

When Jesus died on the cross, He said that "it is finished." The Greek phrase, tetelestai, was used in those days to indicate that debts had been paid in full. In full -- not partially.

On the cross, Jesus completely finished the worked of obtaining full forgiveness and turning away God's wrath from everyone who accepts Him as Savior, God and Lord. Nothing we can do will complete or add to Jesus' work -- He is our Savior, not our partial Savior.

Purgatory is not only unnecessary, it contradicts God's word. The root disagreement between Catholics and Bible-based Christians is the question of authority. Each of us must decide whether we believe that the Bible tells us all that we need to know for faith and practice, or whether it is incomplete (or inaccurate) without the addition of later traditions.

YeloStalyn| 7.1.11 @ 11:32AM

I am a very good Baptist (I won't say devote... I've danced and don't feel bad about it, lol). I certainly have my qualms with the RC. HOWEVER... as an hosest person, I seek truth. That is found not in the RC catechism, or the Baptist Faith and Message. It's found in God. That being said...
I, for a long time, accepted what I was brought up with that there is no Purgatory. However, the more I piece the whole of things together, it seems as though there is something between here and now and the Kingdom of God. Lazarus is in Abraham's Bosom when he dies, seperated by a chasm from the rich man (in Luke). It doesn't specifically call this place Purgatory... but it also doesn't call it Paradise, Heaven, or any other name of finality within God's presense. Food for thought.
Then consider the end times. The dead will rise from their graves. If they're in Heaven/Hell why rise from their graves and stand before God in judgement? How can you get into Heaven, or be cast into Hell, without being judged? Sure, God COULD do what He wants, but being a just God, he will judge us and have us give an account of our life. It will be upon this that we are judged. At that time, our life will be seen blameless if we are in Christ, as He will stand in our stead. Given that... if we go to Heaven/Hell when we die, do we get kicked out for the great judgement in the end times and then hope for re-admittance (if in Heaven) or a chance to change location (if in Hell)?
I reject the idea that Purgatory is a place to "burn off sin" so to speak... to wait out some sort of "mini" punishment. All sin is sin. There is none that are greater or smaller save blaspheme of the Spirit. All the rest are the same... disobedience to God. So if we are saved, we don't have to "burn off" sin in Purgatory... we're done... saved... finished... end of story. And if we're not, well... you know how that ends too. This intermediary place... no matter what you all it... is only a dwelling of souls before the judgement. Afterall, they have to be somewhere. Can we pray for them? We CAN... I suppose. Not TO them, but FOR them. I guess. Not really sure. But can they do anything in this place to change their lot in the final afterlife? No clue... I'll have to check the visitors guide when I get there.

Again... this is just how I, a layman, has come to understand it all. It could be wrong... but to simply discard one side or the other out of hand I think is dishonest as it seems, at least from where I am, that there is some validity to both arguments.

And no... I'm not a "go along to get along" kind of person. I don't beleive in "everyone can make their own truth" etc. I just believe that it is more important that we honestly seek truth that it is to be right. Afterall, Satan is right in that God is real... but he doesn't seek truth with an honest heart.

David T| 7.1.11 @ 11:58AM

Yelo--I applaud you for having an open mind and trying to think through this issue. The Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor 3:15 that some of us are saved "as by fire." Could this be the "refiner's fire" of Purgatory? I believe it is.

YeloStalyn| 7.1.11 @ 2:34PM

I fail to think so. We are saved "AS by fire"... serving as a description of what our salvation is like from the blood. We set ourselves in the fire and it burns away the chaffe leaving only that which is pure. Salvation, which requires repentance, is hard. That repentance and its outcome can be seen as being saved through a trial by fire, so to speak. Jesus never mentions something about a 5 day waiting period before His grace will be processed and you can enter Heaven. I just think this place is where we await judgement. But while there, we can't "burn away" sin. That would imply a means to avoid the punishment for sin other than God's grace which is recieved ONLY through accepting Jesus' sacrifice. If there's another way to be forgiven, ie. waiting it out in "fire", then there is no reason anyone should go to Hell since they can, eventually, burn off their sin.

C Smith| 7.2.11 @ 2:23AM

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment" (Hebrews 9:27). 

Tim C| 7.2.11 @ 8:45AM

Patrick, I have to assume you accept the doctrine of the Trinity - even though that word does not appear in Scripture. But if you accept it, it is because it is a clear teaching woven throughout the text and consistent with all other doctrines the Bible teach.

The same cannot be said for Purgatory. Or for praying to Mary and the saints, or for Indulgences, or for not eating meat on Fridays during Lent, or any number of other teachings that have been invented by men to lay on as a burden to other men. The Pharisees of the Bible were all about this as well, in their own way.

In the end, the simple truth of the gospel is found in Christ alone, by Grace alone, through Faith alone, taught in Scripture alone. Nothing more is needed, and nothing more can be added without losing salvation all together.

Bruce| 7.1.11 @ 8:46AM

Tim;
If there are only heaven and hell, why did Jesus say to the thief on the cross "Verily I say unto thee, today shalt thou be with me in paradise". If Jesus were going to heaven, why not take the thief directly there? What happens in paradise? Peters says that "By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison." So where is this prison Jesus had to go preach in and why did he have to go there?

DaveD| 7.1.11 @ 1:24PM

It really depends on where you put that comma - remember punctuation is NOT in the original. "Truly I say unto you, today you be with me in paradise" means something altogether different than "Truly I say unto you today, you will be with me in paradise."

Tim C| 7.2.11 @ 8:36AM

Jesus' words to the thief on the cross are another evidence that purgatory does not exist. The thief was going to die that day. And because of his faith in Christ, he was going to be in paradise - heaven. Jesus was also going to die that day. But because he is God, and omnipresent, he was going to be in heaven to greet the thief, in the grave for three days, and testifying of his victory to those who had eternally separated themselves from him - in hell.

PJ| 7.2.11 @ 10:07AM

Jesus's words to the good thief, means for certainty that this particular criminal went straight to Heaven without going through any post-death cleansing process to remove the after effects or stains on his soul resulting from sins he has committed in the past. This is what Purgatory represents. (To be in the presence of the Almighty, one has to be worthy. We know this to be true through various OT & NT readings ie Moses & the burning bush, only the Jewish priests were allowed to be in the Holy of Holies? section of the Temple....)

Of course as we can see by the good thief episode, that this purifying process can be done in this world before death. That is 1 reason why suffering exists. I would think being crucified is spiritually cleansing enough.

But first 1 has to be sorry for his/her sins & the good thief meant that requirement by admitting he did wrong & asking Jesus to remember him.

JohnC| 7.1.11 @ 8:24AM

Faith is like a muscle. In the beginning it is obscure but grows to near certainty, but only if the new believer begins to change their behavior with their free will and the Holy Spirit’s help (grace). This obedience allows the Lord to gradually change our in-born sinful and self-centered (fallen) nature to a new budding heavenly nature.

The Holy Spirit helps us over our lifetime to gradually love virtue instead of vice. The Apostle Paul calls this transforming our mind or being (spiritually) born again.

One senses this rebirth in their spirit and knows for sure it is the Living God working within them as they begin to more clearly discern good from evil; thus (living) Faith is being aware of the Lord producing this inner change. It is vitally important for both believers and non-believers to know that true Faith is not blind but something that is experienced and grows.

In this manner God is molding and preparing us for heaven where goodness and love of neighbor reign and saves us from hell where evil and love of self only reign. A Living Faith is the ultimate security and a beautiful thing in a fallen and precarious world.

Bruce| 7.1.11 @ 8:52AM

JohnC;
The most important muscle in the human body is the heart. This is also the most important piece in salvation. Can this be mere coincidence? Notice the scripture implore us to "love the Lord your God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." Again, is it just coincidence that the heart is mentioned first?

Tim C| 7.2.11 @ 9:02AM

If you cross a bridge, does the bridge hold you up or is it your faith in that bridge which sustains you? Certainly, how much you believe in the strength of a bridge has nothing to do with its ability to carry your weight.

The same is true about faith in Jesus Christ. Our "living faith" is not the ultimate security for our salvation or sanctification. God's grace shown to us in the sacrifice of Jesus and his resurrection are the "ultimate security", the only security, we have in this life and for the next.

"Nothing in my hand I bring. Simply to your cross I cling."

Ken (Old Texican)| 7.1.11 @ 8:54AM

Patrick,
splendid commentary. My position on purgatory is similar to my position on the end times and Jesus' return: "Im not on the program committee, I'm on the welcoming committee."
(smile)

YeloStalyn| 7.1.11 @ 11:33AM

I love that! Nice one.

PJ| 7.1.11 @ 9:28AM

Patrick O'Hannigan,
Your statement, "Perhaps another reason for the decline of faith lies just there, in widespread ignorance of history" sums up many of today's problems. Thanks for your letter.

JohnC| 7.1.11 @ 9:39AM

Yes I agree about the heart. It is clear from many Scripture verses that heart is really our will that the Lord wants to strengthen to resist temptation (though we may fail at times) and to love our neighbor.

If we go to church regularly and read Scripture daily (all good things) but still willingly and continually cheat on our income taxes, lie, steal or watch R rated, soft pornography movies we are risking our salvation because this is the opposite of being born again.

We do not lose our free will on how to live after we become believers and this Scriptural truth is vitally important but not emphasized today in many Christian churches.

Ken (Old Texican)| 7.1.11 @ 1:45PM

John C.
NOW WAIT A MINUTE! CHEATING ON TAXES IS AN AMERICAN TRADITION!

LET'S NOT GO OVERBOARD HERE!
(smile)

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 9:56PM

Not only are you a cheater, but you are a blatant liar, and are not to be trusted by anyone, for you slander a brother and sister in Christ!

Occam's Tool| 7.5.11 @ 1:32PM

Margie: what's up with Ken? He's a good guy.

And Ken, it ain't cheating if it ain't illegal---the Supreme court said so. ;)

Seek| 7.5.11 @ 2:26PM

Good. Then we need "slander" now more than ever.

W| 7.1.11 @ 9:43AM

Tim, Pauly, Patrick, thank you for the rational discussion, as opposed to the usual on this site when this topic arises.

PaulyD| 7.1.11 @ 3:44PM

Didn't last long, did it?

:-) Pauly

Petronius| 7.1.11 @ 10:08AM

I'm at a loss as to the source of this quote: "Life is a search for the proper manila folder one should be filed in." I never think of myself as cabinet material. The suggestion is too introspective by half. Try putting yourself in the seat of the Almighty just as you are. Then try and come up with a reason to keep yourself around. Manila folders take up space, but the shredder is in the corner. We all make the cut, but not the same one.

Steve A| 7.1.11 @ 10:23AM

So, somebody scribbled on a tomb wall 2000 years ago = Purgatory is a reality. Wow, what a rock solid foundation to rest my faith. I will take this theory directly to the bank & simply ignore the New Testament. Thanks for the enlightenment.

My wife was raised catholic. When our first child was born, she insisted on a baptism ritual as sanctioned by the Catholic Church. The priest explained that due to original sin, if our child were to die, they would be condemned to Purgatory. I listened to that nonsense & have never returned.

Patrick O'Hannigan| 7.1.11 @ 10:52AM

Steve, grafitti in the catacombs points to a shared belief. It is not itself the foundation of faith, and no Christian would say otherwise. You didn't read very carefully. I suspect your paraphrase of what a priest once said is likewise loose. In any case, purgatory is a transitory state.

Steve A| 7.1.11 @ 11:44AM

Patrick, Cultists have a shared belief. Atheists have a shared belief & this does not legitimize them in the least. They are still misled. Terrorists have a shared belief.

As for the motive of infant baptism in the Catholic Church, last I checked, it was as I state (as well as a pledge by the parents to follow the Catholic faith & raise the child accordingly) I'm fine with the last part, but to suggest a 4 week old child, baptised Catholic in the US goes to Heaven & the same child in India, not baptised, goes to Purgatory, is soooooo narrow minded, so dense & of such shallow thought & lack of logic that it defies description.

I am not sure of much, but I am positive of this: God is fair, God is just, God is wisdom & love. He is not going to toss you, your infant child, or anyone else into Purgatory or a lake of fire on a technicality or for having bad luck. It's simply idiotic to think so. Sorry, there is no other way to describe it.

Mike Mc| 7.1.11 @ 2:06PM

Steve A

Please do your homework. The Catholic Churcch does not have a settled doctrine on what happens to unbaptized infants. There has certainly been alot of debate, but as I said it is not settled.

It's frustrating to listen to non Catholics lecture about Catholic Church teaching when it's apparent they don't understand it. Before you proceed with another such lecure perhaps you could consult the Catechism of the Catholic Church. To do other wise would be soooooo narrow minded, etc, etc, don't you think.

Steve A| 7.1.11 @ 2:30PM

Mike, With all due respect, perhaps you should request that your Ccatholic Church clarify the official position on infant baptism, prayer to dead humans deemed saints, Purgatory (who goes & why) & report back to me with your findings. Since nobody else here is willing to clarify these positions for me, I charge you with the task.

While you are at it, please ask St Charles Borromeo, Destrehan, LA Catholic Church to re-educate their Priests & inform them that there is no "official" reason why they baptize infants & cease mis-informing their parishoners otherwise.

I find it quite refreshing & conforting to know that the entirety of the Ctholic Church engages in a practice or ceremony, & nobody really knows why. Where do I sign up for more of that action??

Clint| 7.1.11 @ 5:01PM

Catholics share the belief in the Communion of Saints with many other Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, and Methodist Churches.

The Communion of Saints is the belief where all saints are intimately related in the Body of Christ, a family. When you die and go to heaven, you do not leave this family.

Everyone in heaven or on their way to heaven are saints, you, me, my deceased grandmother, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.

As part of this family, you may ask your family and friends living here on earth to pray for you. Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you.

Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship.

Asking others to pray for you whether your loved ones on Earth or your loved ones in heaven is always optional.

Clint| 7.1.11 @ 5:47PM

"Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.

This comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision. "

Rich D| 7.2.11 @ 2:47AM

Hey, Clint - why did you leave the Methodist thread without responding to my critique of your acrimonious postings and erroneous assertions about Biblical manuscripts and translations?

http://spectator.org/archives/.....ent_570107

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 3:59PM

Whaaaa' Da Matta Richie, You Got No Rebuttal To What I Posted ?

Hmmmmm Boy?

Rich D| 7.2.11 @ 10:55PM

The ones that you didn't read?

Occam's Tool| 7.5.11 @ 1:34PM

Clint,

You ain't going in the direction you think you are. People who endorse the beheading of 3 month olds don't go heavenward, boy. Your purulent soul will be heading for the land of ice, there to be chewed by Satan's never stopping Jaws.

Kristal| 7.1.11 @ 10:51AM

There is the One, than which there is NO other.

In our present manifestation of THAT ONE, the myriad flashing “points of light” that appear as individual humans (especially), doubt is the dominant feature for our space-time.

Do you DOUBT this?

On a perhaps wilder tangent, consider how the Internet Age has brought us the concept of 24/7, and even 24/7/365. Here we can see, if we have eyes to capture it, yet another expression of TIME, which is constantly being reduced to tighter symbols.

This always hides from us our core, as we resemble a baseball with time the winding string around our Being as THAT One; or maybe it would be easier to picture us as onions, with more solid “layers” accreted like armor over---TIME.

From nowhere, “split second” came to mind.

What a fantastic koan!

Can “you” understand “split second” to INFINITY, in a split second?

In common company, “split second” seems to be a phrase from earlier days, and basically indicates a tiny amount of time. Well, as a longtime lover of track and field, this writer has experienced the evolution of measuring instruments, along with others of my AGE, so that the records for the 100 meter dash, for example, which used to be recorded by hand-held watches to the one tenth of a second, are NOW more precisely and accurately captured to the one hundredth of a second by MACHINES.

But, it’s still a SPLIT second, and even the smallest imaginable time is STILL of SOME duration.

Allow me to cut to the timely chase.

The only apparently hidden truth about “split second” can be exposed by simply noticing the words “split” and “second”.

What kind of “second” is it? SPLIT!

There you have it, in all of its separation glory.

Human reality, like all OTHER ones, are simply complex plays of the primal SPLIT into a self verses an other. Yes, we currently occupy a SPLIT SECOND realm, and the sane assumption is that “I” am not “you”, and this implies FEAR!

Every “other” can ruin “your” day!

What about the word “second”? Let me check out my dictionary---the time definition SPLITS in the true way, by naming the action of a FURTHER division, to wit CUTTING a minute into smaller PARTS.

However, the earlier start of “second” is more interesting---it essentially means “to follow”, in the “sequent” sense.

And WHAT is followed?

Why, of course, the ONLY ONE who is!

If purgatory is to be useful, as a word and a “place-time”, getting to its core meaning, and inherent commandment, must happen, else many-layered “onions” called human beings end up arguing how many angels dance on the end of THIS Earth “needle”.

Stormzeye| 7.1.11 @ 10:56AM

I'm grateful for the fact that this site allows for the discussion of history, theology, politics, culture and other such weighty matters. Thanks for your letter Patrick and for the comments pro and con.

g wayne| 7.1.11 @ 10:56AM

Tim C, excellent comments. What you espouse is biblical. If somoeone wants to believe in purgatory then they do so based on Catholic teaching, tradition and not on the bible. There are no prayers for the dead. Each person has a chance in this life to accept or deny the work of Jesus on the cross, and be born again.
John C, what you describe is santification. Once a person has accepted Jesus in his heart, and believed in his mind that Christ died on the cross for his sins and rose on the third day he is born again. That is the ultimate security. Studying to show ourselves approved, obeying the Lord, dying to ones self are all outward expressions that we are indeed born again.
In 1Peter 3:19-20 the term "spirits in prison" is a referance to angels. He makes a distinction between spirits and person. Everywhere spirits is used in the new testament w/the exception of Hebrews 12 it is a reference to angels. In the greek the verb used to say that Christ went to preach is not euangelizo (to preach the gospel) the verb is kerusso, which is to make an announcement or proclomation. He went to announce his victory over sin. No where in scripture does it ever say the souls of men are in prison, but it does say that demons are in the abussos. Jude verse 6 says. "And angels who did not keep their own domain but abandoned their proper abode He has kept in eternal chains under darkness for the judgement of the great day." I write this to encourage you not discourage.

Kristal| 7.1.11 @ 11:01AM

“The usable Lesson of a difficult life proves that you must observe, understand, and transcend your own conditional personality and destiny. ….There is neither Final Release nor Ultimate Happiness in the objective or the subjective realms of merely conditional consciousness.” Franklin Jones aka Da Free John

C Smith| 7.1.11 @ 11:11AM

An intermediate abode between death and the final judgment? There is such a place, The Congregation of the Dead:

Under our feet this very moment is a subterranean world. The Hebrew Scriptures refer to it as the pit, the abyss, the nether parts of the earth, Abaddon.... No, it is not Hell. Hell is not yet. The Judgment must come first. The name of this present shadow land is called Sheol. And within it a place reserved for those who "caused terror in the land of the living."

"Asshur is there and all her company... all of them slain, fallen by the sword... which caused terror in the land of the living" (Ezekiel 32:22-23).

"There is Elam and all her multitude... fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living" (Ezekiel 32:24).

There is Meshech, Tubal, and all her multitude... they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen... which are gone down to Sheol with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living" (Ezekiel 32:26-27).

There is Edom, her kings, and all her princes, which with their might are laid by them that were slain by the sword: they shall lie with the uncircumcised, and with them that go down to the pit" (Ezekiel 32:29).

"There be the princes of the north... with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword...." (Ezekiel 32:30).

"Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to Sheol, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee" (Isaiah 14:9-11).  

annie| 7.1.11 @ 12:02PM

Note- limbo is not the same as purgatory. And Steve A. what your priest reportedly said is not true.

Steve A| 7.1.11 @ 12:15PM

Ok annie, Explain the Catholic Church position on infant baptism for us.

W| 7.2.11 @ 7:27PM

Steve, if you are serious why don't you ask your wife? It seems you closed your mind on the day of baptism, didnt you discuss it with your wife, and especially when you two decided on how to raise your child with religious instruction?

Steve A| 7.1.11 @ 12:26PM

Oh by the way. That is great news. We now have Hell, Limbo, Purgatory & Heaven. Wait around a few more years & we will have more strata than Buffalo Wild Wings has sauce choices.

GW| 7.2.11 @ 11:46PM

Hahahaha!!!
As an Evangelical Calvinist, I'm going to have to vote for this as comment of the year...

Well done.

skip| 7.5.11 @ 3:37PM

You forgot to add Lenity to the list. The place where those wait while their sins of fruitfulness, productivity, and accountability are absolved for them through the penance of conservatives.

JohnC| 7.1.11 @ 12:46PM

Yes, I am describing sanctification, which is a gradual not an instantaneous process and this on-going inner change is meant by being born again -- born of a new heart or spirit.

Being born again though is not a one-time event since the old man still lurks and the new (spiritual) man must be formed with the help of the Holy Spirit. The Apostle Paul especially emphasizes this struggle in his Epistles.

The best thing for a new believer can do is to examine his conscience periodically and ask God to help change him in the areas needed. If they do this for the rest of their life with a sincere heart they are saved but if they decide to live like the world teaches they are not, especially in this hedonistic and decadent culture.

David T| 7.1.11 @ 1:01PM

Mr. O'Hannigan--Thanks for your commentary. As for your "Roman Catholic sympathies," I say the sooner you have that conversation, the better. As G.K. Chesterton said, "The Catholic Church is larger on the inside than it is on the outside." I've found that to be wonderfully true.

YeloStalyn| 7.1.11 @ 2:39PM

"The Man Who Was Thursday" is the BEST book ever! SO fun! Only book I've read more than once (I'm not much of a reader... I know, bad).

Steve A| 7.1.11 @ 1:02PM

John C, Unfortunately, your theory has no basis in scripture. If you are "saved", you obviously do not lead a perfect life after the event, although you strive & struggle. This is what he refers to.

Once confronted with the knowledge, you either accept the blood of Christ as payment, or you do not. Your sins are forgiven, past, present & future. He has paid the price for all.

Ken (Old Texican)| 7.1.11 @ 1:52PM

Wonderful comments here above.

An old pastor of mine once asked a question... "Where was Jesus during the days His days in the tomb?"

A lot of good Christians believe He was ministering to the people who had died prior to His resurection.
Thoughts?

YeloStalyn| 7.1.11 @ 2:16PM

Seperated from God, suffering the punishment of Sin, and being blameless, coming out on top with the keys to Hell?
Punishment MUST be paid if God is just. And if I am admitted into Heaven based on Jesus taking my place, he must have suffered the burden of not just the sin I commit, but the punishment they are due. Afterall, God turns His face from Jesus when He's on the cross. There is the temporary seperation of the two so that the blameless Lamb of God may suffer the punishment in our stead.

That's who I've always understood it.

Steve A| 7.1.11 @ 2:36PM

Yelo, I believe you have it correct. He, although blameless, agreed to suffer eternal for us. Can you possibly imagine? No.

YeloStalyn| 7.1.11 @ 2:42PM

Easter should be our greatest celebration of the year... but to me it's the most sombering. I get choked up everytime I think about Him on the cross with a pile of sin bearing down on His pierced side. The weight must have been unimaginable... and there I am, sinning, tossing more on top smiling, laughing, all absorbed in the flesh while he suffers, lovingly, for such a cretin as I. It makes me really appreciate the perfectness of His nature as a blameless soul because I am SO far from it.

Steve A| 7.1.11 @ 3:04PM

To fully comprehend it makes me crumble with shame. Talk about a gift not earned. The spirit is ready, but the flesh is weak.

Tim C| 7.2.11 @ 1:59PM

Well said!

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 2:08PM

Jesus is Lord. I tremble at His Word. I thank Him for His Word and that He gave us the Bible as a gift in order to not be led astray by the vain teachings of Man and his Religion.

"All these things My Hand has made, and so all these things are Mine, says the LORD. But this is the man to whom I will look, he that is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at My Word." Is. 66:2.

YeloStalyn| 7.1.11 @ 2:27PM

Also... prior to the Resurection, people recieved forgiveness uner the Law with sacrifices. If they died before His sacrifice, they would not be able to accept it as it had not yet been offered. They would have still been bound under the guidelines set forth in the OT. Christ, Himself, fulfills the Law by serving as the sacrifice required.

Again... I'm no theologian and I don't play one on TV.

Tim C| 7.2.11 @ 2:04PM

Hold on, brother. Read about how Abraham was justified by faith in Romans and Galatians. Not by what he did or the sacrifices he made. Jesus assured the penitent thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with him - before he died and rose, not after.

The OT laws, ceremonies, and sacrifices served several purposes but none of these in themselves made people right with God. It was their faith, same as today.

David T| 7.1.11 @ 2:54PM

Ken--There are many NT passages that indicate Jesus preached to the imprisoned souls in Sheol (OT realm of the dead) after His death but before His resurrection. See, for example, Eph 4:9-10 and 1 Pet 3:18-19.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 5:33PM

The Bible says He was dead until God raised Him on the third day.
It doesn't matter what "a good Pastor" says.

"Remember how He told you, while he was still in Galilee, that the Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and on the third day rise." Lk. 24:6 & 7.

Margie| 7.1.11 @ 1:53PM

Despite continual (to this day) threatening w mails from the present day Papal Inquisitor Ken (Old Tex) I am here to say that according to the pure Gospel of Jesus Christ my Lord, there is NO SUCH THING as Purgatory. It is a blatant lie taught by the CULT of Catholicism.

The CULT of Catholicism teaches hundreds of false doctrines and does NOT preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

"Then I heard another voice from Heaven saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as Heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities." Rev. 18:4 & 5.

The Catholic church is the whore of Babylon~ do you take part in her sin?

Ken~ e mail me one more time with your threats and I am calling the authorities.

W| 7.1.11 @ 3:13PM

Margie, at first I thought you were just a sick bigot full of hate, which is the natural conclusion from reading you drivel. But I have been advised by the Jesuit High Command office of the Papal Inquisition that you are a double agent. Your assignment is to post insane comments about Catholics to make Bible readers and Protestants appear stupid, backword, and bigoted. Now that we understand you, I apoligize for referring to you as a narrow minded, intolerant, bigoted, and inventor of the Sharia-Bible church..Nobody sane in the year 2011 could possibly really believe what you post, now I know it is an act. So, keep up the insults, bigotry, and more of the past and copy bible drivel.

Clint| 7.1.11 @ 5:07PM

Uh Oh !
American Spectator's Resident Zany Crazed Lapsed Catholic-Anti-Catholic Apocalyptic Crank Lady Victor-Margie-Sandy-Sybil Is In The Building.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 2:02PM

The Truth hate only to those who hate the Truth.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 2:04PM

That should have read thusly:

The Truth is hate only to those who hate the Truth.

"Jesus said to him, "I am the Way, and the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father, but by Me." Jn. 14:6.

Catholicism won't save you.

W| 7.2.11 @ 7:59PM

I don't know for sure what will save me, but I do know for sure that your Sahria mentality regarding the bible will not save anyone. You are turning away more people that you attract.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 8:17PM

You do not accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ and accuse falsely those that do~ that is YOUR problem, W.
You do not even know your Bible, nor are you interested.
The only thing you are doing here is jumping on the bandwagon with the other liars, Clint/Tim* and Ken.
Those who turn away from the Gospel are those who WANT to do so, such as yourself.
As it is written:

"For this people's heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and turn for me to heal them.' Mt. 13:15.

W| 7.2.11 @ 9:32PM

You give yourself too much credit, I accept God, I do not accept bigots like you.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 9:55PM

Bigot? That I am not, for I believe every Word of God.
It is you and your Catholic pals~ liars who slander Bible believing Christians continuously and try and drive us out.
You insult, demean and lie~ you have your reward already.
For you are doing what you accuse me of.

A Poor Sinner| 7.1.11 @ 5:05PM

And where, pray tell does it say in the Bible that the Roman Catholic Church is the Whore of Babylon? (Remember Sole Scurptura, and all that) I find your statement rather strange, as St John himself (who wrote The Book of the Apocolypse) was a Catholic. But who knows. I'm sure latter day Protestants know more than St John ever did.

And since Catholics believe Christ is the Head of the Church, you calling the RCC the Whore of Babylon makes you somewhat a blasphemer.

But have no fear; the Holy Mother and all the Saints pray for your soul constantly. Thier intercessory prayers on your behalf may come in handy someday.

C Smith| 7.2.11 @ 2:36AM

"And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.... And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth" (Revelation 17:5-9). 

W| 7.2.11 @ 9:06AM

Gee, that makes it clear.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 2:01PM

What? A Catholic reprimanding a Christian for something that he says actually isn't spelled out in the Bible?

You mean like, "Transubstantiation" a blasphemy doctrine which isn't in the Bible, and that claims (disgustingly so) that when you take the Lord's Supper you're actually performing cannibalism?

You mean like prayer to the dead? Completely AGAINST the Word of God?

I posted a link, below for a list of some of the unbiblical and demonic doctrines that this cult teaches~ all in the Name of God!

Babylon, in the Bible, is figurative for false Religion. If you actually studied your Bible ~ and that is what real Christians actually do so that they aren't led astray by perverted men who teach these things~ you'd see that.

Catholicism is a false Religion. It teaches demonic doctrines~ I just named only TWO of them.

Now~ what a true Christian would want to know is if this is true. What do they teach? Is it in the Bible? If not, why am I agreeing with it, and why am I not listening to the Words of God instead?

So, yes, Catholicism is indeed the whore of Babylon.

W| 7.2.11 @ 3:37PM

You are one classy christian lady

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 4:29PM

Indeed I am. I will be counted as one who utterly rejects the "church" that teaches doctrines of demons, such as "Purgatory" and praying to the dead, and "Transubstantiation" which disgustingly teaches that you are actually EATING Christ's Body every time you take the Lord's Supper.
Indeed I am hated by Catholics who choose to hold to these ungodly and blasphemous teachings.

Read your Bible and stop persecuting Christians for standing on His Holy Word~ unless you don't care where you will end up.

This is my country~ Jesus is my Lord~ and Heaven is my Home.

Freedom of speech for thee, but not for me?

"Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom Judgment was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life, and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Rev. 20:4.

Who're you worshipping, O persecutor of His?

W| 7.2.11 @ 7:28PM

I do not hate you, i feel sorry for you

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 7:47PM

The ones to be pitied are the ones who lie and bear false witness against the ones who preach the PURE and unadulterated WORD OF GOD.

Nick| 7.3.11 @ 1:24AM

Margie,

Actually, the harlot and Babylon mentioned repeatedly in the Book of Revelation are referring to Jerusalem, as they were by the prophets, in the Old Testament. Jerusalem was also referred to as"Sodom" and "Egypt" (Rev. 11:8).

- Hosea marries a prostitute, who represents Israel, the infidelity of the Temple of Jerusalem, in particular.
- Chapter 23 of Ezekiel tells the story of the Two Sisters, i.e., Samaria and Jerusalem the harlot.
- " How is the faithful city, that was full of judgment, become a harlot? justice dwelt in it, but now murderers." - Isaiah 1: 21
- " Go, and cry in the ears of Jerusalem, saying: [...] For on every high hill, and under every green tree, you prostituted yourself." - Jeremiah 2: 2, 20
"Lift up your eyes on high: and see where you have not prostituted yourself: you sat in the ways, waiting for them as a robber in the wilderness: and you have polluted the land with your fornications, and with your wickedness. Therefore the showers were withholden, and there was no lateward rain: you had a harlot's forehead, you would not blush." - Jeremiah 3: 2-3

"And the great city was divided into three parts: and the cities of the Gentiles fell. And great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the indignation of his wrath." - Rev. 16: 19

Rome was never divided into three parts. But, Jerusalem was. Both in A.D. 70, and, in 586 B.C. (see Ezekiel 5: 1-5). Also, the Seven Hills of Rome do not include Vatican Hill.

"And here is the understanding that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, upon which the woman sits: and they are seven kings. Five are fallen, one is, and the other is not yet come: and when he has come, he must remain a short time." - Rev. 17: 9-10

The Seven Kings were the Herodian kings, starting with Herod the Great. The Ten Kings (v. 12) are the 10 Roman emperors from Augustus through Titus, who destroyed Jerusalem in A.D. 70.

Saint John's Revelation is an elaboration of the events prophesied by Christ in the "Little Apocalypse" recorded in Matthew 24, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem.

God Bless!

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 6:51PM

Douay-Rheims Bible
WHEREFORE thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest. For wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself. For thou dost the same things which thou judges

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 7:48PM

Indeed.
Take heed to thyself.

JohnC| 7.1.11 @ 1:54PM

We will have to agree to disagree -- salvation to me is not by a formula.

Paul himself said #Work out your salvation in fear and trembling and he who is firm to the end is saved#. (Paul here was talking about a healthy fear of backsliding).

I do agree however that we cannot lead a perfect life, but we must start to try and live morally (with God’s help) as the parable of the Sower and the Net teach, along with much other scripture including much of Proverbs; otherwise we are on spiritual thin ice.

Tim C| 7.2.11 @ 2:12PM

For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believed in him would not perish, but have eternal life.

Is this the formula you are struggling with?

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 5:08PM

I am here to preach the FULL PURE Gospel of Jesus Christ. It goes like this: (Take note haters of Christians who bear false witness)

"For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only Son of God." Jn. 3:16-18.

"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him." Jn. 3:36.

Margie| 7.1.11 @ 2:08PM

"And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes Judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him." Heb. 9:27 & 28.

Clint| 7.1.11 @ 5:10PM

Now, Tell All American Spectator Readers What You Say Happens To Practicing Jews & Muslims, Joisey Apocalyptic Crank Lady Victor-Margie-Sandy-Sybil.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 1:48PM

You, who posts using MANY different screen names in order to try and slander me are a liar.

I will continue preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ as long as they'll let me.

I don't even hate you~ I pity you.

If you want to know where God sends liars like you~ I'd look it up. It's in the book you hate me preaching from~ the Bible!

and I think you'd better find out quick, because that short little life you are living may be even shorter than you think~ all of us live short little lives in comparison to Eternity~ and it matters we we end up, does it not?

According to God's Holy Word~ there is only Heaven or Hell.

Those who love Him and the brethren get to go to Heaven. Those who hate Him and His Holy Word, and practice hate toward those who actually stand on His Holy Word~ are going to go to Hell.

Listening, Ken?

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 3:54PM

Now, Tell All The American Spectator Readers What You Say Happens To Practicing Jews & Muslims When They Die, Joisey Apocalyptic Crank Lady Bigot Victor-Margie-Sandy-Sybil.

Whaaa' Da Matta "Truthteller"?

Cat Got Your Tongue ?

Hmmmm?

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 4:34PM

Hater of God, Clint/Tim*.. you prove Catholicism's demonistic coddling of the perverted.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 7:11PM

Webster's Bible Translation
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whoever thou art, that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest, doest the same things.

W| 7.2.11 @ 7:31PM

Margie, what does happen to practicing Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, and Budhists, and anyone who does not read or interpret the bible as you do?

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 7:48PM

Read the Bible and find out for yourself.

W| 7.2.11 @ 9:34PM

You are the bible expert, tell us. What are you afraid of? If if is in the bible , then tell us, are you now afraid to post the bible truth? you have a verse for every occasion, but now you are afraid to answer.

W| 7.3.11 @ 8:34AM

Still afraid to answer. You preach the truth and have a direct line to God, still afraid to answer. You do not mind being an anti-catholic bigot, but you are afraid to say you are also an anti-semite.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 8:21PM

P.S. Twister of words you are, snake!
I do not interpret.
I post His very Words.
It is the Catholics who are the haters and liars and slanderers here who REJECT His very Words that ACCUSE me falsely of interpreting.
It is Catholicism that does the INTERPRETING and PERVERTING of His Holy Word!!

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 6:53PM

American King James Version
Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are that judge: for wherein you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you that judge do the same things

Ken (Old Texican)| 7.1.11 @ 6:08PM

Clint,
you and Margie make splendid book-ends. You are both filled with hate ...from opposite directions.

I am so glad and blessed that I live in neither of your heads.
I gave Margie a million dollars worth of inventory...ON CONSIGNMENT... (NO CHARGE).
In order to help her make a living.
Heh, no good deed goes unpunished.
She is now threatening me with a restraining order.
Somehow she forgot "free speech".

Margie, come on with that restraining order. I need a little humor in my life. I have each of our e-mails on file back and forth over the last couple of years.
I reviewed them today.

I have begged, pleaded, and prayed for you to demonstrate a little Christian agape' instead of hatred and self righteousness.

First of all, you can't AFFORD to press a restraining order. Second, there is a wonderful thing about e-mails....... YOU DON'T HAVE TO OPEN THEM.
One click and they are gone.
OK,
The next time you are starving... please do not ask me for help. I don't want a "restraining order" keeping me from helping.

I will stand down.

I am very sorry that you bite the hand that tries to feed you.

Folks,
many of you have sensed that I have a lot of "friends"...people that have invested millions of dollars in our pediatric practice nation-wide.

Many of you know that I have written a bestelling novel utilizing my screen name from here. That novel will probaBLY GET ME KILLED...

Let's see if Margie gets me killed...along with several children by "outing" me.

OK Margie........... up to you.
Let's see if you are a murderor as well as a Pharisee casting stones.

If Margie is in fact a murderor...been nice conversing with youall.

Vic,
your wife has gone off the rails. Have you sold any of the inventory I sent to you...no charge?

Clint| 7.1.11 @ 9:30PM

As a Catholic, I don't have to always turn the other cheek to Serial Fixated Anti-Catholic Bigots.

And, As For Your Opinion Of Me, I Take It For What It's Worth.

A Zimbabwean Dollar.

victor| 7.2.11 @ 6:55PM

Clint:
"As a Catholic, I don't have to always turn the other cheek to Serial Fixated Anti-Catholic Bigots."

Yes, of course, there is always another Inquisition, isn't there?
They never really were dispensed with, were they?

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 7:10PM

English Revised Version
Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things

victor| 7.2.11 @ 7:12PM

Indeed.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 1:23PM

Wow, Ken gave me a million dollars worth of inventory? NO, he did not. He introduced my husband and me to a man (who he told "are the real thing" as Christians), and this man has some car brochures he sent us to sell. Now, they have not even covered the cost of shipping. They are not worth much.

Now, he is blatantly lying here. And if you do not confess your lie I will not only contact your friend and have him post here that you did not not only send us anything, and what he sent us was some things that can't even get 11.00 each, most of which are not selling at all.

As to a restraining order~ I asked you SEVERAL TIMES to QUIT e mailing me with threats that if I don't stop preaching the Gospel here, you will "destroy" me here.

You continue e mailing me and you call me on the phone CURSING. So yes, I will do that ~ e mail or call ONCE more and I will.

And, since Ken seeks to slander and lie continually here about me for standing on the PURE Gospel of Jesus Christ~ his friend will receive these things back, with a note concerning Ken's behavior.

YOU sent us NOTHING. In fact, now that I see you asked my husband if he "sold anything YOU sent at NO charge" a blatant lie~ since YOU sent nothing, but he did, AND WE PAID for them @ $55.00~ I AM contacting your friend to advise him of your lie. YOU are disgusting.

YOU are the one who is filled with hate~ YOU are the one who is trying to shut me up with your HATE.

And now, you seek to destroy me.
Why? Because I speak the truth here, you call it hate~ but the Truth is hate to those who hate the Truth.

Now~ since Ken is seeing fit to slander me here because he HATES the PURE Gospel of Jesus Christ, and clacks with The Babylon Whore~ Catholicism~ and makes himself equal to Clint/Tim*, whom he now agrees with~

I see fit to expose this fraud for what he really is:

He used the Lord's Name in vain in my presence and when I called him on it he YELLED: "Don't GO there!" He said he has a "deal" with God about it.

Next: This is a man who LIES about the Bible. He says there's such a thing as "Re-incarnation", Which is utterly unbiblical, but like a good blasphemous Catholic~ he's "allowed" to believe in a fantasy.

He also calls the Bible "a story book". I guess that's so he can pick and choose from it whatever he wants.

No, Ken, you have been outed yourself. You choose to lie about me and my husband~ and before God you will have to give an account.

In the meantime I will continue to preach HIS Holy Word as it is written in the Bible.

Praise His Name~ His Truth endures forever.

The Bible says that there is NO SUCH THING AS PURGATORY!

It is a lie. There is only Heaven and Hell.
READ the Bible, believers and do not take ANY man's word for it.

It DOES matter what you believe.
God wants you to listen to HIm.

Catholicism is not Christianity. It is filled with lies and blasphemy.

Like the Catholic hater Clint/Tim* says: Do your homework!

The Roman Catholic "Church" is Not a Real Christian:

http://www.thebereans.net/foru.....hp?t=34036

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 1:49PM

You're A Maniac Lapsed Catholic-Anti-Catholic Joisey White Trash Bigot Victor-Margie-Sandy-Sybil.

We Catholics. Are Forced To Counterpunch Your Obsessionally Fixated Anti-Catholic Ax Grinding Rants Continually.

See A Religious Counselor & A Good Psychiatrist.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 3:13PM

Punch away Clint/Tim*/Ken!

And you will continue to receive the PURE Gospel of Jesus Christ in YOUR faces.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 3:50PM

I Got $1000.00 that says I ain't Ken, Lapsed Catholic-Anti-Catholic Paranoid Sociopathic Religious Maniac, Joisey White Trash Bigot Apocalyptic Crank Lady Margie.

Put Up Or Shut Up Zany Crazed Fanatic Anti-Catholic Pig Bigot Margie.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 4:32PM

I didn't say you were Ken, I am including him along with you from now on though, because he is also a hater of Bible believing Christians and a liar like you who bears false witness.

You are no different than him.

And God is my Judge. So by all means continue, liar.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 5:25PM

You're A Slandering Liar, Lapsed Catholic-Anti-Catholic Paranoid Sociopathic Religious Maniac, Joisey White Trash Bigot Apocalyptic Crank Lady Margie.

UH Oh !
Proverb 10:18, “He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.”

Now, Tell All American Spectator Readers What You Say Happens To Practicing Jews & Muslims, Joisey Apocalyptic Crank Lady Victor-Margie-Sandy-Sybil.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 6:18PM

The "slandering liar" has always been you.
I have not lied, not about one single thing.
I have stood on God's Word and ONLY His Word, and only His Word~ as written in the Bible, which you utterly hate and reject.
In fact, you seek to destroy anyone who dares to speak from His Word. You have continually lied about me, and taken other screen names and posed as me in order to slander me.
But that's OK~ you already have your reward.
Along with your pal, Ken~ who is a blatant liar like yourself~ you both already have your rewards.

Nope, I don't hate~ rather it is YOU that spews filth and hatred~ toward me daily here and for YEARS.

The thing that you hate really isn't me though~ it's THE WORD OF GOD!

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 6:42PM

Uh Oh !

Hoisted On Your Own Bible, Apocalyptic Crank Lady Margie

King James Bible
Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 6:44PM

Now, Tell All American Spectator Readers What You Say Happens To Practicing Jews & Muslims When They Die "Self-Appointed Judge" Joisey Apocalyptic Crank Lady Victor-Margie-Sandy-Sybil.

victor| 7.2.11 @ 6:57PM

Judged?
You mean like how you are judging my wife for standing on Scripture?
Creep.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 7:08PM

Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha !
Victor-Margie-Sandy-Sybil Is Judging Everybody Else & Their Religions .

Aaaaand, Apparently, You Don't Obey Your Own Version Of The Bible Yourself, Sport.
New International Version (©1984)
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same thing

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 6:54PM

American Standard Version
Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things

victor| 7.2.11 @ 7:11PM

Keep going, Clint/Tim*~ you are pronouncing your own Judgment.
For you slander Christians all day long.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 7:14PM

Uh Oh !
There Ya Go Again.

Victor-Margie-Sandy-Sybil Gets Hoisted On Their Self-Appointed Judgement Petard, Again.

Weymouth New Testament
You are therefore without excuse, O man, whoever you are who sit in judgement upon others. For when you pass judgement on your fellow man, you condemn yourself; for you who sit in judgement upon others are guilty of the same misdeeds;

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 7:49PM

Indeed.
Praise God.

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 11:58AM

My indeed is to the Scripture that you so devilishly try and apply to me, but are so blind that you think it does not apply to you.
I am in full agreement with the Word of God.

W| 7.3.11 @ 12:56PM

Margie, what does happen to practicing Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, and Budhists, and anyone who does not read or interpret the bible as you do?
You are the bible expert, and speak the truth, so answer the question?

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:13AM

Hypocrite! For you know what the Word of God already says, and if you do not know then you are no Christian.

Christians do not interpret His Holy Word~ they PREACH it.

W| 7.4.11 @ 10:50AM

Preach It, say the Holy Word, what is it?

Margie| 7.5.11 @ 1:02AM

Get thee behind me, Satan!

Seek| 7.5.11 @ 2:31PM

Why would anyone trust at face value a car salesman, Christian or otherwise? These people would fleece their grandmas if they could. Many no doubt have.

You done got snookered, Marge.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 1:31PM

And since you are about the business of posting about and lying about me and my husband personally here~ I will expose this other thing that you, a dishonest man did to us:

You asked us to sell your blue pick up truck on our e bay site, We are Top Sellers there, and we agreed. The truck had its license plate on it and was parked in front of a shopping mall and this showed in the pictures he sent us.

He told us that if we got it sold for a certain amount of money, we could keep the rest as commission. We did list it and several days later, he e mailed us to say, "Never mind, it sold here".
No commission as promised, either.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 6:56PM

Bible in Basic English
So you have no reason, whoever you are, for judging: for in judging another you are judging yourself, for you do the same things

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 1:43PM

One more thing~ since you, Ken~ see fit to try and slander me concerning my husband and my financial situation~ mocking that "we can't afford" to get a restraining order~ you have now allowed me to tell the truth about you here~ according to your friend, you aren't so well off yourself.

Now, why don't you quit being a liar and a hypocrite?

My husband has been out of work, yes. He also has a REAL disability~ he cannot stand up for more than a few minutes, and because of his disease he CANNOT ever stand up straight. He has to limp when he walks leaning to one side. He is not young, and he is having a very hard time finding a job anywhere.

We have an ebay business in which we are Top Sellers~ do you know what this means? We have a shining track record, and all by ourselves we buy and sell and pay our bills.

We have 100% customer satisfaction. We are not slackers,

you make me ill.

May God have mercy on YOU.

victor| 7.2.11 @ 6:50PM

Ken:
"Have you sold any of the inventory I sent to you...no charge?"

Inventory? You have you sent me no inventory, charge or no charge, much less a million dollars worth. That is something that you made up out of thin air, in order to puff yourself in front of the world. God sees otherwise.
You've sent me nothing except grief that I and my wife do not deserve.
The only business you and I conducted was for me to sell your truck on eBay, which you dealt deceitfully, as my wife explained already in this thread.
You never answered as to how much you got or where your buyer came from.
Is this the same way you lied about RCV and his supposed contact with Homeland Security about you?
I believed you then, but since you are proving yourself to lie about us here, I am not so sure about anything you say now.
As far as my wife going off any rails about anything, I would say that your behavior indicates that it is YOU that has gone round the bend.
Telling her not to quote Scripture, accusing her of "hate" for standing on the Word of God because it goes against the teachings of Catholicism and other false Religions, which it happens that you hold to unbeknownst to anyone before.
It seems that you have a fondness for Catholic Doctrine and that's the real bottom line here.
You also have a liking for other false teachings such as evolution and that God made homosexuals.
This and others have put you in the camp of the other side, that is those who teach against what God has given us.
This is the real reason that you are in opposition to anyone who preaches Scripture as it is written in the Bible and are ready to destroy them as the Church did in the Middle Ages and continues to do so to this day.

Exd 23:1
"You shall not utter a false report. You shall not join hands with a wicked man, to be a malicious witness."

You have not only uttered an entirely false report, but you joined hands with another wicked man to be a malicious witness against, not only my wife, but me as well.

The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament and what you have done is sinned most grievously.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 6:58PM

Bible in Basic English
So you have no reason, whoever you are, for judging: for in judging another you are judging yourself, for you do the same things

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 6:59PM

New Living Translation (©2007)
You may think you can condemn such people, but you are just as bad, and you have no excuse! When you say they are wicked and should be punished, you are condemning yourself, for you who judge others do these very same things.

victor| 7.2.11 @ 7:10PM

"You are doing the same things".
And we are not lying, nor slandering, but this is what you are doing, and what your "brother" Ken is doing here.
So, you are pronouncing your own Judgment.
Aren't you proud, Ken?

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 7:19PM

Uh Oh ,Again !

Proverb 10:18, “He that hideth hatred with lying lips, and he that uttereth a slander, is a fool.”

I Got A $ 1000.00 That says I ain't Ken Slandering Liar.

Put Up or Shut Up .

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 7:50PM

Imbecile.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 8:35PM

Ah,Ah,Ah !

Noooooooo Judging There Margie.

Baaaaaddddddd Girl.

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 9:51PM

Clint/Tim* is now ecstatic that his lying, slandering Catholic slandering pal, Ken has finally come out on the same side.

Repent, liars!

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 10:38PM

Uh,Uh,Uh !

Moooooore Judging There Margie.

Noooooooooo Joisey Judging, Joisey Margie.

Goodness , My,My.My !

Now, You're A Serial Repeat Judger There Margie.

Beaucoup Baaaaaaaaaddddd Girl!

God Is Shakin' His Head & Laughin'.

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 6:52PM

"Do you not know that we are to judge Angels? How much more, matters pertaining to this life!" 1 Cor. 6:3.

Yes, I not only judge you an imbecile, but much worse. A modern day Papal Inquisitor~ for indeed you drip with such hatred toward Christians~ you would kill us if you could.

Tony in Central PA| 7.1.11 @ 8:28PM

Any of our Protestant friends care to provide an analysis of 1 Corinthians 3: 10 - 15 ? If this isn't a reference to Purgatory, then what is it ?

Rich D| 7.2.11 @ 3:16AM

The fire is the refiner's fire of tribulation and affliction that tests one's work, i.e., doctrines. You are saved, but the impure or imperfect things (wood, hay, stubble) that you have built on the true foundation (such as incorporating the Law with the Gospel) are removed (as fire would prove them worthless) and the pure things (gold, silver, precious stones) will remain.

Rich D| 7.2.11 @ 3:19AM

BTW, my response has nothing to do with denominationalism. It is what the text demands.

Tony in Central PA| 7.2.11 @ 2:09PM

I can't agree with this if you confine it only to this life. The first reason is that there are plenty of people who die without undergoing significant trials. They might die young or they might die suddenly and unexpectedly after a relatively comfortable existence.
Secondly, this passage [ the entire chapter, not just a couple of lines ] seems to be in reference to a person who is already a Christian. St. Paul talks about " the foundation " that a person builds upon. He first identifies " the foundation " as Jesus Christ. There is no discussion of " personal doctrines ". The text identifies a man's works as being built upon the foundation.
3:15 says " he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through flames ". This is not hell, because hell is final and nobody escapes. So if it isn't hell, what does that leave ?
Personally, I'm not crazy about the idea of Purgatory and spending time there. Ultimately, however, the existence of such a place isn't determined by our own opinions. I just don't think any rational investigation limited to only the Bible as reference can reasonably say that Purgatory does not exist.

victor| 7.2.11 @ 7:08PM

"Ultimately, however, the existence of such a place isn't determined by our own opinions."

Exactly, so don't make up what isn't in the Bible.

"I just don't think any rational investigation limited to only the Bible as reference."

If you're a Christian, you are supposed to abide by His Words, as written in Scripture and as taught by Jesus and the Apostles.
You're too used to the false teachings of Catholicism, which allows for their own made up theology, and teaches you that it's ok to create your own personal fantasies about God.

This is the same sort of thinking that wants the Supreme Court to use foreign Law to judge American Law and our Constitution.

"I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them." Rom. 16:17.

The doctrine which was taught by them, and not by the men who came after, or even during that time~ as you can see here.

If a doctrine is not in the Bible, the Christian is to pay it no heed.

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 7:21PM

This Is.

Ya Can't Seem To Follow Your Bible.

Weymouth New Testament
You are therefore without excuse, O man, whoever you are who sit in judgement upon others. For when you pass judgement on your fellow man, you condemn yourself; for you who sit in judgement upon others are guilty of the same misdeeds;

Margie| 7.2.11 @ 7:50PM

Indeed.
Praise His Holy Name!

Clint| 7.2.11 @ 8:33PM

Ha,Ha,Ha,Ha !

Indeed.

You Can't Seem To Follow Your Own Bible.

God's Shakin' His Head & Laughin'.

Rich D| 7.2.11 @ 11:40PM

Perhaps crying at your ignorance. The work of Jesus is FINISHED on earth, and the debt is paid in full. No works of man are necessary or effective. That is in EVERYBODY'S Bible, so what's with the misunderstanding and mocking?

Clint| 7.3.11 @ 2:55AM

Nah Richie Boy.
God's Laughing At Your Shallow & Ignorant Bigoted Anti-Catholicism.

Tony in Central PA| 7.2.11 @ 8:35PM

Accusations and insults are easy to make, and that's what I've come to expect, unfortunately, in most of these discussions. I'd like to hear a rational refutation on theological grounds as to why Catholicism has it all wrong about Purgatory. What could St. Paul possibly be talking about in 1 Corinthians 3:10 - 15 ?
A couple of things about what Catholics believe in Purgatory : 1) you don't spend time in Purgatory unless you are already destined for heaven, nobody goes from Purgatory to hell and nobody goes from hell to Purgatory 2) not everybody spends time there 3) Catholics believe God wants our very nature to be perfected, not simply covered over for all eternity and for some persons, Purgatory is instrumental in this transformation.
If you have a refutation, please avoid the " Bible interprets itself " arguments. If that were the case, there wouldn't be 20,000 + Protestant denominations and counting and Protestants and Catholics wouldn't have polar opposite interpretations of many passages.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 12:14AM

Well, there aren't 20,000+ Protestant denominations, so your statement is self-refuting. You can't provide a source for that, and it's a non sequitur because no Protestants believe in purgatory. I have already responded to your request and provided a further expansion, without accusations and insults, so don't direct any of your complaint to me.

Tony in Central PA| 7.3.11 @ 8:06AM

About.com lists approximately 38,000 Christian denominations today. They didn't provide an exact breakdown of the 38,000. I'd be willing to bet most of them are Protestant - derived. The one reason I brought it up in the first place was to illustrate that even among denominations that consider the Bible to be the only source of information about Christianity you get significant doctrinal disagreements over interpretive issues.

I won't argue that Purgatory is something these denominations believe. Then again, I asked, and didn't get, a Biblical reason as to why it can't be true.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 11:54PM

You DID get a biblical answer, and another one below.

Also, if your definition of denomination is a group of churches under a single authority, then every bishop heads a denomination. It's a silly claim either way.

Tony in Central PA| 7.5.11 @ 9:28PM

Rich, the Biblical answer you gave avoided some pretty fundamental things about the passage. I have before me the NIV Bible, which isn't used by Catholics and even that translation refers to the " Day " spoken of in the text as Judgment Day, not personal earthly trials.

Catholics hold that there are two judgments, individual and general. Individual occurs after death, general occurs at the end of the world. After the general judgment, Purgatory no longer exists. Every human soul is either in Heaven or hell.
But back to the text ( NIV ), which clearly states the Day will bring each man's works to light and that fire will reveal their quality. I don't know how you came up with " doctrines " because I don't see such a reference in any translation. I do not believe it is possible to interpret this as merely the Earthly trials we go through, although they themselves are certainly tests and sometimes severe ones for some people.

Rich D| 7.2.11 @ 11:18PM

Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you. Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship."

Communication with the dead is expressly forbidden.

Nick| 7.2.11 @ 11:40PM

Rich D.,

But, Christ communicated with the dead, at the Transfiguration:

"And after six days Jesus takes unto him Peter and James, and John his brother, and brings them up into a high mountain apart: And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow. And behold there appeared to them Moses and Elias talking with him. And Peter answering, said to Jesus: Lord, it is good for us to be here: if you will, let us make here three tabernacles, one for you, and one for Moses, and one for Elias."

- Saint Matthew's Gospel, chapter 17: 1-4

(Emphasis mine. Cf also Mark 9: 1-8 & Luke 9: 28-36.)

God Bless!

Rich D| 7.2.11 @ 11:45PM

Well, love, when they cross the divide and come to earth and appear before you, then by all means, say, "Hi!" and greet them for me, too.

Peace!

Nick| 7.3.11 @ 1:31AM

Rich D.,

Didn't you just assert that this is "expressly forbidden"? Why would you tell me to do what is forbidden?

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 6:49PM

King David knew. He called out to God, and only God:

"Dost thou work wonders for the dead? Do the shades rise up to praise Thee? Is Thy steadfast love declared in the grave, or thy faithfulness in Abaddon? Are Thy wonders known in the darkness, or Thy Saving help in the land of forgetfulness? But I, O LORD, cry to Thee; in the morning my prayer comes before Thee." Ps. 88:10-13.

Catholicism is lying to you. It makes a mockery of the Word of God.
Only Jesus Christ is Lord. God has no "Mother". Jesus is the ONLY Mediator.

"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time." 1 Tim. 2:5 & 6.

The testimony was borne about Christ Jesus who died for the Sin of the World~ and no other.

Christians, if you call yourself that~ MUST obey the Word of God~ and not the teachings of a cult.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 11:21PM

Nick, do you really see no difference in trying to communicate with the dead as opposed to the disciples seeing a vision of Moses and Elijah as they would look when glorified? C'mon!

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 12:06AM

Rich D.,

"[...] as opposed to the disciples seeing a vision of Moses and Elijah as they would look when glorified?"

Where is this in the Scriptures? This sounds like your own private interpretation, in my opinion.

I just responded to your emphatic declaration that speaking with the dead was "expressly forbidden" by showing that Christ spoke with the dead. Are we not supposed to imitate Christ?

Also, Saint Paul requested Christians to pray for all men in his first letter to Timothy: "I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions and thanksgivings be made for all men [...]." - 1 Timothy 2: 1

Paul asked others to pray for him directly. Cf Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, and 2 Thess. 3:1.

If Saint Paul taught that it was good for flawed and sinful Christians to pray for him, and each other, in addition to going directly to Jesus, how much better to ask those in Heaven, i.e., the Communion of Saints, to pray for us?

We know that Christ conquered death, so, those in Heaven are not dead, they are "asleep in Christ" as Paul often put it, and very much alive.

The saint's prayers are offered in the Heavenly Liturgy: "And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints." - Rev. 5: 8

Asking those in Heaven to pray with us goes all the way back to King David: " Bless the Lord, all you his angels: you that are mighty in strength, and execute his word, hearkening to the voice of his orders. 21 Bless the Lord, all you his hosts: you ministers of his that do his will." - Psalm 103: 20-21

You seem to be conflating the prohibition of burning your children as an offering, divination, soothsaying, sorcery, seances, and necromancy, found in Duet. 18, with asking a saint, or loved one who has fallen asleep in Christ, to pray for your intentions.

Do you not see the difference between the two, Rich?

Clint| 7.3.11 @ 2:50AM

Asked & Answered Before.

Richie D. Plays Anti-Catholic Negative Attention Seeking Games.

"Catholics share the belief in the Communion of Saints with many other Christians, including the Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Episcopal, and Methodist Churches.

The Communion of Saints is the belief where all saints are intimately related in the Body of Christ, a family. When you die and go to heaven, you do not leave this family.

Everyone in heaven or on their way to heaven are saints, you, me, my deceased grandmother, Mary the mother of Jesus, Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul II.

As part of this family, you may ask your family and friends living here on earth to pray for you. Or, you may also ask the Blessed Virgin Mary, Saint Andrew, or your deceased grandmother living in heaven to pray for you.

Prayer to saints in heaven is simple communication, not worship.

Asking others to pray for you whether your loved ones on Earth or your loved ones in heaven is always optional."

However,
"Catholics profess faith in the Communion of Saints. This belief separates us from many other Christians who say the Bible condemns talking with the dead. The Catechism agrees, “All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to ‘unveil’ the future.” CCC 2116 But who says the saints in heaven are dead? The Church says they are alive and living in God’s presence; and Jesus says He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. The ‘dead’ are in hell. We do not seek their help."

Rich D| 7.2.11 @ 11:36PM

Not sure what you are arguing here - what Paul is saying is that as a worker for God constructing his building, the materials that you use will be tested. It's the works that are tested as if by fire, not the believer. The Greek says "if any of the work be burned..."

Tony in Central PA| 7.3.11 @ 8:39AM

What is this fire ? Paul isn't talking about hell, so what could it possibly mean ?

There are also some possible tangential references to Purgatory in Matthew's Gospel. Jesus speaks about the consequences of being forgiven personally but not forgiving others. I think this is a human failing many people, myself included, can claim at times. In Mt 5:25 - 26 there is mention of being thrown into prison after judgment where " you will not get out until you have paid the last penny ". Again, what could this possibly mean ? It isn't hell, because nobody gets out of hell. To Catholics, it sounds like Purgatory.

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 6:10PM

"For no human being will be justified in His sight by works of the Law, since through the Law comes knowledge of Sin. But now the Righteousness of God has been manifested apart from Law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it, the Righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction; since all have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God, they are justified by his Grace as a gift, through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.." Rom. 3:20-24.

"..each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire." 1 Cor. 3:13-15.

"Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal which comes upon you to prove you, as though something strange were happening to you. But rejoice in so far as you share Christ's sufferings, that you may also rejoice and be glad when His Glory is revealed." 1 Pe. 4:12 & 13.

"Blessed is the man who endures trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the Crown of Life which God has promised to those who love Him." Jas. 1:12.

"..then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trial, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the Day of Judgment.." 2 Pe. 2:9.

The fiery ordeal are the trials we go through now, to purify us, and as it is written~ on that Day~ Judgment Day, He makes us ready.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My Word and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal Life; he does not come into Judgment, but has passed from death to Life." Jn. 5:24.

Tony in Central PA| 7.3.11 @ 7:55PM

Margie, reread the Corinthians passage. The Day accompanies the fire according to the text ( assuming it is an acccurate grammatical translation ). The Day, I take to understand as personal judgment and not final judgment. So it might fit the doctrine you are used to hearing, but for somebody reading or hearing this for the first time, they would not likely reach the conclusion you have that the fire simply refers to the trials of this life alone.

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 10:55PM

Tony,

I do not know of anywhere in the Bible that capitalizes the Day and does not mean Judgment Day.
Do you?

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 11:04PM

Or rather, the Day of His return.
As it says here:

"But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.
For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep.
For this we declare to you by the Word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord Himself will descend from Heaven with a cry of command, with the Archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.
Therefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thess. 4:13-18.

W| 7.3.11 @ 11:24PM

Margie, what does happen to practicing Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, and Budhists, and anyone who does not read or interpret the bible as you do?You are the bible expert, and speak the truth, so answer the question? Are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, also a cult?
Why are you afraid to answer?

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:34AM

W~
Don't you ever get tired of repeating yourself, hypocrite?

W| 7.4.11 @ 8:24AM

Margie, will keep asking you the same question until you answer, cowardly bigot.

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 11:18AM

Bigot?
Name calling is ALL you have, isn't it?
The Lord rebuke you~ for you are are no more wanting to know the Truth than your other nasty friends here who do what you do.

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 6:14PM

Sorry, should have read, so that the trials we go through, He makes us ready for the Day of His return.

POST America| 7.1.11 @ 10:52PM

Spend the energy on clearing the FREEMASONRY and Arminian Heresy from practice, membership, and, most important,
from leadership.

'So Shall' Dar-WIN-ism, 'Marks'-ism (ie monopoly capital controlled opposition) and the 'benny violent' principles of the capstone creeps are in no way compatible with GENUINE, scriptural Christianity OR Judaism.

You can NOT serve two masters ---esp. them thar
'hidden' masters.

This is a core issue. This is the core poison at work on our society.

ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION ABOUT IT

Mark30339| 7.2.11 @ 11:28AM

The letters of Paul are quite clear about the folly of a life dedicated to becoming worthy in the presence of God. I think Paul would see our Catholic formulations on a purgatory theory as an extension of this folly -- now we can even dedicate our deaths to becoming worthy in the presence of God.

Yet Paul would embrace the purgatory experience as an ESSENTIAL part of living in the here and now. He had dedicated his life to God by torturing and killing the heretical Jews for Jesus. He realized that mankind is never worthy of God, and that he in particular was utterly repugnant in relation to the Will of God -- yet God's Son still embraced Paul in genuine love. That is the purgatory experience: owning up to your own wretchedness, suspending your self-condemnation, and realizing that the loving Creator God already knew that you would be lost before you were found.

I think the best scriptural foundation for purgatory in the here and now is the Parable of the Prodigal Son. The father allows the son to disrespect him and squander his property -- yet yearns for the day when his lost son will be found. When the son is found, the father's boundless joy is not only a marvel -- it is an ANNOYANCE to the second son, who clearly lives by judgment and relative worthiness. I see the Prodigal's Brother as lost in the Land of Deserve with few prospects for ever being found. If there is such a thing as creating space for God's love, living in the Land of Deserve shrinks that space.

Mr. O'Hannigan, Mr. Bethell, there is no purgatory boot camp where you can successfully separate yourselves from the rest of us and finally become worthy of God. When you are ready to give those egos a rest, perhaps you will sit down and have a cup a coffee with us. We don't bite, and we won't judge.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 12:01AM

Where do you get this skubula? There is someway that a mortal can live and/or behave either in the here and now or in some hereafter (Land of Deserve?!) that can limit the love of God?

I am called to judge your works, and your message is a cause for stumbling (skandalizo, skandalon). A man without judgement is certain to fall.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 12:05AM

Typo - skubala.

Tony in Central PA| 7.3.11 @ 8:59AM

Great post !
I often think as Christians if we had to explain our faith in a brief, yet powerful story to somebody who knew nothing about it, the story of the Prodigal Son would be the best option. I'd never considered the situation of the older brother as you described it but I will from now on.

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 11:50PM

What?! That parable is not about either brother! How does the older brother explain the Christian faith?

Tony in Central PA| 7.5.11 @ 9:11PM

You know, this is yet another example of how two people can read the same thing and have a completely different understanding of it.

If I had to explain the Christian faith in a very simple, short, yet entertaining way to somebody who didn't know anything about Christianity or Jesus, I would start with this story. Why ? Because it contains deep, relatable insights into human nature, but more importantly, it offers an image of God ( the Father ) that is true. Christianity reveals God to be a loving Father, not an angry tribal chieftan or a forever - detached impersonal entity. I think there are people who consider themselves Christians, some of them posting right here in this thread, who have a mental image of God very different from the Father in the Prodigal Son story.

Everybody can relate to the older brother if they are or had an older brother. Older brothers tend to be the rule - followers. In the Jewish world of the first century, they were the principle heirs ( a small detail that while not actually written in the Gospel but would have been known to Jesus' listeners ) that makes the story richer still. There are plenty of people who appear to " Do right " but they may not actually be doing it for the right reasons. You can bet the older brother was pretty PO'd when his Father gave his younger brother his share of the inheritance. Seeing him return to his Father's warm welcome was the last straw.

Mark made a good point about Purgatory with respect to the older brother. While the sins of the younger brother were serious, they were obvious to him and everybody else. With the older brother, he may have behaved outwardly upright, but his motivations are more selfish than they appear. The older brother has no interest in forgiving and welcoming his lost brother. The Father gently tells him he loves him and everything that he has belongs to him. But he also tells him the seriousnes of the situation from which his younger brother has been delivered and that they should be joyful. Its easy to imagine that the father was similarly forgiving of the older brother many times.
Jesus reminds us that we must forgive as we have been forgiven, and I think this is what Mark was getting at with his post. In Luke 12:59 Jesus warns about the consequences of being forgiven personally but not forgiving others, " ... I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny ". Catholics understand this as a refernce to Purgatory. It can't be hell, because nobody gets out.

Mark30339| 7.13.11 @ 4:44PM

Tony, what a thoughtful piece. Some of us older brothers actually snap and become prodigal sons. The resulting contempt we have for our selves exposes a lifelong posture of judging, comparing and assessing; Faith had been a quest to be more worthy of God's grace than our brother. When we realize how repugnant we are in relation to the Will of God, we can be like Judas and judge ourselves unworthy of life itself, or we can be like Paul and surrender our unworthy selves to the loving Creator God Who already knew that we would be lost before we were found.

Paul's response is the essential experience, you can call it a purgatory experience, or born again, or transformed by Christ -- but it is ready for us in the here and now. Brazilian Bishop Dom Helder Camara has written about the prodigal son and his brother as follows: "I pray incessantly for the conversion of the prodigal son's brother. Ever in my ear rings the dread warning: the one has awakened from his life of sin; when will the other awaken from his life of virtue?" (1962).

To me the pieces by Bethell and O'Hannigan sound like yearnings by the Prodigal's brother, and so miss the point just like the Pharisees around Jesus. We need to see the illusion of virtue in this life, and not hope for some future purgatory that will somehow make us even more virtuous. We need more followers of Christ who understand His invoking Hosea 6:6 at Matthew 12:7 when He says "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice."

Nick| 7.3.11 @ 3:12AM

Here is an analogy that recently popped into my head (thank you, Holy Spirit) that might better explain the Catholic teaching on Purgatory (purgatorium in Latin, purging, purification as by fire.) And, that Purgatory is not punishment for sins not forgiven.

Think of your soul at the moment of baptism as a brand new car. And not a car of today. Think of a Duesenberg, or a Ferrari, or a '57 Chevy!

When the car rolls off the assembly line, it is perfect, as the soul is after baptism. As you drive it, wear & tear, dirt & sun, and poor maintenance take their toll over the years.

Now, you can change the oil, wash and wax, lube the chassis, and tune the engine to keep the car in good working order. This is the equivalent of going to confession, often, to have venial sins forgiven (cf Numbers 15: 22-29). But, the effects of the wear & tear are still part of the car, even though the dirt has been washed away (sins are forgiven.)

And, if you deliberately abuse the car by hitting potholes, thereby getting a flat and bending the rim; or, taking it off-road and breaking the suspension; or, running the engine while it's low on oil, and it seizes; then you must have major repairs done, to get it back on the road again. This is the equivalent of having to go to confession with mortal sin on your soul, in order to be in a state of grace and again receive the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord, in the Eucharist (cf Num. 15: 30-31). But, again, the wear & tear, the damage done, is still with the car.

The car works and can be driven, i.e., it's in a state of grace, even though the effects of the damage (sin) are still part of the car.

So, when we die, if our car (soul) is in working condition (state of grace, i.e., no sin on our soul,) we, then, are judged able to enter Heaven. If our car is up on blocks, and the engine won't start (mortal sin,) we cannot enter Heaven. We go to Lucifer's Junkyard!

But, before we can enter Heaven, our soul (car) must be perfect, as it was when we were born again, at baptism. This requires a complete rebuild, from the ground up, to get back into showroom condition. All the effects from the damage we caused, must be repaired. This is what Purgatory is for. To purify our souls (cars.)

I know this is not a great analogy, but, I hope it might help any non-Catholics out there understand that Purgatory is not a place of punishment, it is a process of purification, as by fire.

This is how I once heard the difference between Heaven and Hell described:
When we die, we will be face to face with Christ the Lord, Who is pure Love. We will be judged. If we have condemned ourselves by rejecting God and refusing His forgiveness, we will be removed from His Presence, from His all-encompassing Love, FOREVER! For all eternity.

This is what Hell is. To be in the Presence of Christ's pure Love, the Love you have rejected, and then to be removed from it, never to experience it again, FOR ALL ETERNITY, this is the torment of Hell.

And, the only one who can sentence any of us to an eternity of God's absence is... oneself.

RCV| 7.3.11 @ 12:04PM

Nicely done, Nick.

Nick| 7.3.11 @ 4:54PM

RCV,

Thanks, but, I give full credit to the Holy Spirit. This thought popped into my head out of nowhere.
Thank you, for taking the time to read it.

God Bless!

PJ| 7.3.11 @ 6:32PM

Nick,
Wonderful analogy. So easy to understand in our car-loving society, in the same way Jesus was using parables to teach the people of His time. The Holy Spirit was definitely working through you!!! I'll be using your car analogy in my class, if you don't mind.

Nick| 7.3.11 @ 8:35PM

PJ,

By all means, be my guest!
And, thank you so much for the compliment about the Holy Spirit. (Although, this just happened to be one of the times I didn't push the Spirit away, which I do all to often!)

p.s. Have you heard these analogies that help explain the Holy Trinity:

One God in three distinct persons.

There are 3 states of matter: solid, liquid, and gas. One substance (i.e., water) with three distinct states.

The 3 branches of government: Executive, Legislative, and Judicial. One government with three distinct branches.

It takes 3 to make up a family: Husband, Wife, and Child. One family with three distinct members.

Hope these are also helpful.
God Bless!

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 1:13PM

P.S.

The Holy Spirit only "reveals" what is already written in the Scriptures.

If what one has been "revealed" isn't Biblical~ it isn't the Holy Spirit who is doing the "revealing".

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 5:49PM

Nicely done, but it's unbiblical.
You can believe a fantasy if you so desire, but Christians believe in and obey the Word of God.

There is no such thing as Purgatory. It is NOT in the Bible.
Catholicism is lying to you.

There is NO such thing as "venial" sin. It is nOT in the Bible.
Catholicism is lying to you.

"Going to confession" is NOT biblical.
Catholicism is lying to you.

Baptism does not cleanse anyone of Sin, Only the Holy Spirit does that, when one is saved by Grace through faith by the believing in and confessing of Jesus as Lord. (Rom. 10:9 & 10.)
Baptism is figurative as to the forgiveness of sin and comes AFTER one has been regenerated from above by the Holy Spirit. (Jn. 3:3).
And Jn. 3:3 is NOT talking about baptism, but of precisely being regenerated from above by the Holy Spirit.
The water birth is physical birth, all one has to do is actually read the entire passage.

Again, Catholicism is lying to you.

We are never perfect until we get our new Heavenly bodies, as Christ got His. Read 1 Cor. 15.

Reality? It's this:

And Hell is a real place. It is also called by Jesus the Lake of Fire and sulphur, that burns forever and ever.

"Then I saw a Great White Throne and Him who sat upon it; from His Presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the Throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead in them, and all were judged by what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death, the Lake of Fire; and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the Lake of Fire." Rev. 20:11-15.

Now, THAT is the Word of God speaking. It destroys the false doctrine of Catholicism in oh, so many ways.

First, Catholicism says that everyone goes to Heaven.. and if they don't, they get to go to a fantasy called "Purgatory". Well, that'd be just peachy if it were true, but it just isn't.

The cult of Catholicism is based on fantasy. Christians must reject fantasy and live according to the Word of God, or He says you cannot enter into Heaven.

The World has a saying, "Words mean things."
How much more the very Words of God?

And do not bother accusing me of hatred.

Only those who hate the Truth call Truth hate.

RCV| 7.3.11 @ 7:04PM

Margie: although I am not today a Roman Catholic, I was raised as one. Catholicism definitely does not teach that "everyone goes to heaven or to purgatory," nor does it deny the existence of hell, where many will end up. Why do you believe that they teach that no one goes to hell?

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:05AM

I was raised in it too, as a child but I quit it at around age 12~ when I was aware enough to realize it wasn't for me.

I know what it teaches~ and I know what it always denies that it teaches.
I still have my "Catechism" booklet. In it are blasphemies such as Grace comes through the "Church".

This is so that the perverted elders can have some sort of authority over the people.

The Bible (God's wn Words) say:

"For the Law was given through Moses,
but grace and truth came through Jesus
Christ." Jn. 1:17.

I praise God for this! We as human beings with all of our horrible flaws and our disgusting sins~ get to be forgiven and cleansed by the Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and it isn't up to some harsh Task Master to tell us to go pray by rote in some pew in order to be forgiven.

Yes, I was taught that we all go to Heaven. If we're "not good enough" then we get to make a sort of pit stop in "Purgatory". Well, my, my, wouldn't that be so great! Then one can be as filthy and disgusting toward other human beings, live a life of sin, because after all, in the end~~ you just know you'll make it to Heaven anyhow!

That is a lie. Yes, we can be forgiven, yes we are saved by Grace through faith and not works alone and our faith will produce naturally our works.. but no one is automatically going to Heaven if they knowingly choose a life of blatant sin.

So, yes, that is what is taught.
I find it really weird that Catholics always say, "that's not what we teach!" But yes, it is.

W| 7.4.11 @ 10:55AM

Margie, what does happen to practicing Jews, Muslims, and Hindus, and Budhists, and anyone who does not read or interpret the bible as you do? You are the bible expert, and speak the truth, so answer the question? Are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Budhists, also a cult?
Why are you afraid to answer?
We already know your are an anti-Catholic bigot, you are afraid to let everyone know you are also a bigot regarding all other religions except your Sharia-Bible, one person religion.

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 11:16AM

Are you a Christian?

W| 7.4.11 @ 12:49PM

Answer the question, bigot

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:59PM

Answer the question, hypocrite.

W| 7.4.11 @ 3:31PM

From you refusal to answer, you believe all religions except your Sharia-bible creation are cults.
Define Christianity, cowardly bigot.

Margie| 7.5.11 @ 1:00AM

I have answered the question probably thousands of times. and again in this thread. You are not interested in the Truth, and in fact your question is deceitful just like you are.

I am no coward~ I preach the Word of God~ you are the coward who has only names to call, like your friends who do the same.

W| 7.5.11 @ 9:44AM

Answer one more time, and make it clear, what are you afraid of it you preach the truth?

RCV| 7.4.11 @ 1:43PM

Margie, if you were taught that all people go to either heaven or purgatory, you were not taught Catholic doctrine, and you are the only Catholic I've ever known who was taught that, because it is plainly contrary to the catechism and church teaching.

W| 7.4.11 @ 4:42PM

RCV, you are wasting your time asking logical questions.

Nick| 7.3.11 @ 8:24PM

Margie,

The concepts of a final purging (purgatorium) of the soul, and praying for those souls, are in complete accord with the Scriptures. I dealt with the difference between mortal and venial sins by referring to the Book of Numbers, chapter 15. The Sacrament of Penance, i.e., confession, is also Scriptural.

Nothing unclean can enter Heaven, cf Rev. 21: 27.

"Be at agreement with your adversary betimes, whilst you are in the way with him: lest perhaps the adversary deliver you to the judge, and the judge deliver you to the officer, and you be cast into prison. Amen I say to you, you shall not go out from thence till you repay the last farthing. - Matthew 5: 25-26

"Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven. And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world, nor in the world to come." Matthew 12: 31-32

"If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire." - 1 Cor. 3: 15

1st and 2nd Maccabees are Inspired Scriptures, despite Luther and Calvin wrongly ejecting them from Canon.

"(For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead), and because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins." - 2nd Maccabees 12: 44-46

The Bible does not only speak of Heaven and Hell.

"Because Christ also died once for our sins, the just for the unjust: that he might offer us to God, being put to death indeed in the flesh, but enlivened in the spirit, in which also coming he preached to those spirits that were in prison" - 1 Peter 3: 18-19

Christ taught the confession of sins in the Gospel according to Saint John:

"When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive the Holy Ghost. Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them: and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained." John 20: 22-23
(All emphasis mine.)

Also, Christ was referring to baptism in chapter 3 of John's Gospel. Why did Nicodemus ask, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born again?" (v.4) Because he wrongly thought Jesus was talking about physical birth. Christ corrected him by saying, " Amen, amen, I say to you, unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (v.5) This is baptism. In verse 22 John says that Jesus and His disciples baptized people along with John the Baptist.

I think you've seen the Scriptures I've quoted that say that baptism saves, should I post them again?

As RCV has already posted, the Catholic Church has never taught that there is no Hell. Whoever told you that was very badly mistaken, I'm afraid.

I would never accuse you of hatred. I know you believe you are stating the truth. But, you do tend to depend on people who do not know what the Catholic Church actually teaches. I'm just trying to show you their errors. And, show you how the Catholic Church interprets these Bible verses, not convince you that the Catholic interpretation is correct.

I hope this cleared-up these misunderstandings.
God Bless!
Yours in Christ, Nick

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 11:44PM

Nope. You are so wrong.
But you will believe what you wish to believe, and I will believe every Word of God, exactly as it is written~ without adding one, or taking away one single Word.

And I know EXACTLY what Catholicism teaches. I was born into it~ and God rescued me from that cult.

And John chapter three is indeed referring to being born of the Spirit, and not the flesh, just as Jesus says:

"Jesus answered and said to him, Truly,
truly, I say to you, If one is not generated
from above, he is not able to see the kingdom
of God.
Nicodemus said to Him, How is a man
able to be generated, being old? He is not
able to enter into his mother’s womb a second
time and be generated.
Jesus answered, Truly, truly, I say to
you, If one is not generated out of water
and Spirit, he is not able to enter into the
kingdom of God.
The thing having been generated out of
the flesh is flesh, and that having been generated
out of the Spirit is spirit.
Do not wonder because I said to you,
You must be generated from above.
The Spirit breathes where He desires,
and you hear His voice; but you do not
know from where He comes, and where
He goes; so is everyone having been generated
from the Spirit." Jn. 3:3-8.

Only the ones wanting to pervert the Gospel of Jesus Christ try to say that He meant baptism here, and I am sorry that you have been taught such a lie. You think you are following the Truth~ but you are not.
I have to say that to you, because it's the truth.

What God has written is so perfectly clear. And what Catholicism teaches is another Gospel entirely.

"Nothing unclean can enter Heaven".
That's why we get new resurrected bodies, Heavenly ones, like Christ's:

"Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the Man of Heaven. I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality.
When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 1 Cor. 15:50-54.

Catholics always say, "we never said such and such." But yes, you have~ many here have posted asking and or saying that Hell isn't a real place~ and none of them truly Christian, for a Christian knows the Word of God speaks of Hell. Either they say it isn't a real place, or they say no one goes there because they get to do a pit stop in the created fantasy of "Purgatory".

There is no such thing, Nick.

And what Jesus taught us about confessing our sins, it was to confess them to one another~ and to God in prayer~ not some hierarchical figure of authority.

"Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects." Jas. 5:16.

No thanks, Nick~ I will forever reject the false teachings of your Religion.
You haven't cleared up anything.
I know you do not accuse me of hate, but adding to the Bible or taking away from His Holy Words is what the Whore of Babylon does.

"And He called out with a mighty voice, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! It has become a dwelling place of demons, a haunt of every foul spirit, a haunt of every foul and hateful bird; for all nations have drunk the wine of her impure passion, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have grown rich with the wealth of her wantonness."
Then I heard another voice from Heaven saying, "Come out of her, My people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; for her sins are heaped high as Heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities." Rev. 18:2-5.

I pray God will see fit to rescue you from her.

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 1:56AM

Margie,

"[...] without adding one, or taking away one single Word."

I'm confused, when did I add any words? I quoted directly from the Scriptures. And, I, like you, also believe and love every Word of God.

If I recall correctly, you grew up in the '60s, yes? The '60s and '70s were a very bad time for Catholic catechetics. So, you probably were not taught what the Church actually teaches, just as I wasn't. I'm curious as to the name of your "'Catechism' booklet" and when it was published? Was it the Baltimore Catechism?

"[...] many here have posted asking and or saying that Hell isn't a real place [...]."

Well, they were also taught incorrectly. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (a new one was published in the early '90s) covers the true existence of Hell in Paragraphs 1033-1037, which can be found here:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/.....2.htm#1036

This is what the Church actually teaches, not what so-and-so claimed that She teaches. I'm sure you want to be as accurate as possible, lest you misrepresent what Catholics really believe. I know you want to speak the truth, rather than repeat what isn't true. I am more than happy to help you in this regard.

Now, concerning John 3: 3-8, how is baptism being born again in the flesh? Water is not flesh. Nicodemus was taking Christ literally when He said "born again." But, Christ meant that the soul must be born again.

The Sacrament of Baptism consists of water and Spirit. Water is the outward, physical sign of what the Holy Spirit is doing to the soul, i.e., washing away the stain of Original Sin. You need both the water and the Spirit, because baptism saves (cf Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21).

Again, I know that you are stating what you really believe is the truth, and I take no offense, truly. Please believe me, I am not trying to pervert the Word of God. Rather, I quote from the Scriptures regularly, as you do.

"And what Jesus taught us about confessing our sins, it was to confess them to one another [...]."

Saint James is not precise as to whom he is referring. Do you remember the Confiteor at the beginning of the Mass? All Catholics participate in the Penitential Rite: "I confess to almighty God, and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have sinned through my own fault [...]."

This might be what James was referring to when he wrote "confess your sins to one another [...]." Notice that James didn't say to forgive each other's sins, did he? Forgiveness of sins was a specific authority Christ passed on to the Apostles, so they may pass them on to others, and so on (John 20: 23). James may very well be referring to sacramental confession in his letter, we just don't know for sure.

And, Saint Paul warned of receiving the Eucharist in a state of mortal sin without going to confession: "Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord." - 1 Cor. 11: 27

Again, I know you don't believe the Catholic interpretation of these Scripture verses. But, you can't say that the Catholic Church doesn't use the Bible to try to prove it's teachings, She does.

As for the Whore of Babylon, did you read my rebuttal of this, from 7.3.11 @ 1:24AM, above?

Thank you for these prayers. And, please keep praying for me, as these prayers are not wasted! I, also, will keep praying for you, Victor, and your family.
God Bless!
Your brother in Christ, Nick

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 11:50PM

P.S. The books of the Apochrypha were thrown out because they were not written by the Holy Spirit~ or rather, by men moved by same.
The teachings were not in agreement with the teachings of the Scriptures, Jesus, or the Apostles.
This is why it was thrown out. I've read them, and they are not of God, nor does anyone with the Spirit of God not recognize this.

Nick, you are thinking God is leading you, but God leads no one to Catholicism, since it is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You are being fooled by Satan himself.

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 2:21AM

Margie,

The so-called Apocrypha books were thrown out by men. Christians had been reading these books, and using them in the liturgy, for 1,500 years.

What are the false teachings found in Baruch, Tobit, or Judith, for example?

If Satan was fooling me, how could I say that I love Jesus Christ with all of my heart? How could I be such a staunch defender of the unborn? Just curious.

I don't think Satan is deceiving you. You are definitely on the path to know Christ. You just can't see Him in sharp focus yet. You have the menu, albeit with some missing entrees (Apocrypha.) You are just missing the partaking of the whole meal.
God Bless!

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 11:13AM

Nick,

Jesus says:

"If you love Me, you will keep My commandments." Jn. 14:15.

The teachings you espouse are not Biblical~ they are made up doctrines of Catholicism. No matter how many times you are shown this, you reject His very Words in place of these false teachings.

"He who does not love Me does not keep My Words; and the Word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." Jn. 14:24.

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 5:52PM

"For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My Words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed, when He comes in the Glory of His Father with the Holy Angels." Mk. 8:38.

Come, Lord Jesus!

Henty Drummond| 7.3.11 @ 9:09AM

I am not a Catholic, indeed the local Catholic church treated me in a cruel and unChristian way when I was diagnosed wth cancer and needed some comfort. That said, I believe there is something in the human psychologicasl make-up that needs Purgatory. I don't want to face God in the next world, or my loved ones, without having been cleansed of sin. There must be some kind of cleansing process. By the same token, there must be a reason we instinctively feel inclined to pray for the dead.

Tony in Central PA| 7.3.11 @ 9:22AM

Sorry to hear about your experience, Henty, but can you elaborate ?

Henty Drummond| 7.3.11 @ 12:47PM

Tony, Thank you truely for your good wishes, but I can't really say more without involving other people. I still feel I am a Christian, but the Catholics, Episcopalians and methodists have all put themselves beyond the pale as far as I'm concerned. I call myself now "non-denominational" but have a good friend who is a Baptist pastor. I keep telling myself that one bad exprience sould not discredit a whole church, but that is the way human psychology works, it seems. I will try to pray for THEM when I can and I hope this will help me as well.

Tony in Central PA| 7.3.11 @ 2:48PM

I hope things continue to improve for you, henty.

Margie| 7.3.11 @ 6:34PM

The comfort you are seeking comes only through Christ. People can only comfort us so much, Henty.

Jesus says He's the Vine, and wants us to abide in Him. He tells Christians to abide in His love.

"As the Father has loved Me, so have I loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love." Jn. 15:9 & 10.15:9.

He waits to be gracious to you!

And then, what you can do, is find a gathering of Christians who study the Bible~ a non-denominational church where their doctrine is the Bible~ and there you'll find genuine fellowship.

"For where two or three are gathered in My Name, there am I in the midst of them." Mt. 18:20.

God bless you, He knows you're looking for Him, and He always finds the one lost sheep~ He leaves the 99 to go after the 100th~ no matter where you happen to be!

W| 7.3.11 @ 2:48PM

Why did you go to the Catholic Church when you needed some comfort, as opposed to whatever church you had previously attended, since you were not a Catholic?

Rich D| 7.3.11 @ 11:46PM

Clint| 7.3.11 @ 2:55AM

I quote Jesus and you call it shallow? You think that he is somewhere other than seated at the right hand of God the father? Has he returned and we all missed it? You take the easy and cowardly way out by making charges of anti-catholicism instead of debating from substance. You are in the same class of fools as those who yell racist and Nazi.

Finished: Jn 17:4
One sacrifice: Heb 1:3, 10:12
Location: Mat 26;24, Jn 9:30, Mk 14:62, 16;19, Lk 22:69, Ro 8:34, Ac 7;55, 1 Pet 3;22.

If all of those citations and the Apostle's Creed which sums it up aren't enough for you, then you aren't a Christian.

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 12:09AM

Nick 7.3.11 @ 3:12AM impresses himself with this gem: "Here is an analogy that recently popped into my head (thank you, Holy Spirit) that might better explain the Catholic teaching on Purgatory (purgatorium in Latin, purging, purification as by fire.) ..."

No, thank Satan the deceiver for such trash. If it makes you feel any better, I disagree here with Margie's affirmation - it is NOT nicely done, unless she is referring to the deception. It's skubala - look it up.

You are not judged by your works. No merit can accrue to you from any source in heaven from any "saint", or from earth by any work, including prayer. You have been ransomed by the blood of Christ on the Cross as a perfect, once-and-for-all sacrifice, and are reclothed so that the Father sees the Son, and not you. You in Christ, and Christ in you. Why make this so hard? - oh, I remember now (slaps forehead) - to get money from the poor and ignorant through fear. It is a most evil heresy.

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:26AM

Heh, I meant "nicely done" grammatically. He is in error, but speaks well in his erring.
But that is not news to Nick, he knows what I think already.

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 2:43AM

Rich D.,

Don't hold back your Christian love, give it to me with both barrels! I love you, my brother. How did I impress myself?

I agree with you, Christ died on the Cross as a sacrifice for all men's sins. The sacrifice was "once-and-for-all". The sacrifice was perpetual, and is re-presented, i.e., made present again, at the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass.

At the Mass, Heaven and Earth meet and the Liturgy that is celebrated perpetually in the Heavenly Jerusalem is made present on earth. Catholics are joined to the Choirs of Angels and Saints to worship God. I hope you can experience it someday.

I will leave you with Christ's words: "A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth that which is evil. For out of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks." - Luke 6:45

God Bless!
Your brother in Christ, Nick

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 11:08AM

Hi Nick~

"The sacrifice was "once-and-for-all". The sacrifice was perpetual, and is re-presented, i.e., made present again, at the Sacrifice of the Holy Mass."

You cannot say, and you just contradicted yourself~ that His sacrifice (as the Bible says it is) is once for all and then turn around and say it is perpetual!

That is what Catholicism's lies have taught you, and it is against the Word of God!

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 2:50PM

Nick,

my Mother in law just passed on from this life to the next. Thank you for your prayers.

She came to America for her freedom, and today of all days died on a glorious day, and went to be with her Lord of Glory.
Amen.

RCV| 7.4.11 @ 5:32PM

My condolences to you and Victor on your loss, Margie.

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 6:18PM

Margie,

My deepest condolences to you and Victor. May Julia rest in peace. She was indeed a patriot.

p.s. Did you know that John Adams and Thomas Jefferson both died on the 4th of July, 1826? The 50th anniversary of the signing of the Declaration of Independence!

I pray for God to give you all the strength your family needs in the days and weeks to come.
God Bless!

Margie| 7.5.11 @ 6:29PM

Nick,

And what of my post @ 11:23? You simply cannot refute the very Word of God, can you?

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 11:23AM

"The death he died He died to sin, once for all, but the life He lives he lives to God." Rom. 6:10.

Obey the Word of God, Nick.

"He has no need, like those high priests, to offer sacrifices daily, first for His own sins and then for those of the people; He did this once for all when he offered up Himself.
Indeed, the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect for ever." Heb. 7:27 & 28.

Obey the Word of God.

CJGait| 7.4.11 @ 12:25AM

So there is a huge back and forth here about all kinds of Church history, theology, doctrine, etc. As usual the term Catholic is used as if there are Catholics and Protestants and the Orthodox Church doesn't exist, which is tiresome.

But there is one curious point in all of this for me. The post quotes two notable atheists for their opinions on Purgatory. Why? Hitchens and Dawkins (quite correctly) do not accept the concept of Heaven and Hell, why would they have anything to do with Purgatory? The atheist view of the matter is much simpler than 'waiting rooms' and thieves in paradise. It's very simple indeed: There is no God. There are in fact, no Gods. There is no Heaven and Hell. There is no Purgatory. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness do not require belief in a system of fairy tales, whether those tales are based on 2,000 year old fictions or 3,000 year old fables. If we can stop wasting our time pursuing these fairy tales out of a compulsive fear of death we might actually be able to get something worthwhile done before dying.

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:31AM

But God tells us that Mankind is in lifelong bondage to the fear of death, (Heb. 2:15), and that IS really what it's all about.

And just because one says it ain't so, doesn't make it not so!
It all depends on who you want to believe, God? Or the mighty atheists. :^).

CJGait| 7.4.11 @ 1:46AM

Actually, there is an alternative to believing the religious or believing the atheists. It is...not believing at all. As we understand the world around us (and the universe around that world) better, we can set aside belief in favor of observation and a limited amount of conclusions (the conclusions will, as a rule, be discovered to be off the mark in subsequent periods).

The key to religious teachings, what really sets them apart from wisdom literature, is the presence of the miraculous. I have had the privilege of seeing the basis of at least one 'miracle', albeit post-Biblical, and it helps guide my view of the rest.

That miracle is what led to St. Constantine's conversion to Christianity, a key event in Church history. On the eve of a decisive battle near what became Constantinople Constantine saw a cross of light in the sky and writing beneath it (in some accounts he is said to have seen it in a dream). If someone like Constantine and his officers, with a 4th century knowledge of optics, meteorology, etc., i.e. had seen what I saw in Kazakhstan in 1988, that is a cross of light in the sky and a 360 degree rainbow around the horizon, I'm pretty sure they would have gone into battle convinced that they had seen a miracle and fought 'under the Cross'. In my case the phenomenon was probably caused by a high amount of particulate in the air from the burning of large amounts of missile fuel in the arid plains of Kazakhstan during the first stages of the INF treaty between Russia and America, which is why I was there at the time. In the case of Constantine the Great perhaps it came from large amounts of particulates from campfires from the two armies gathered for the battle. But in my opinion both cases were natural phenomena. Only in the first case, the one passed down through religious tradition, has the actual writing in the sky been added. I really think that's a bit of overkill. The cross was a nice bright white and located right at the nadir above us. Quite dramatic enough without an inscription.

I'm sure there are quite a few incidents described in various scriptures, East and West, that trace back to similarly misunderstood or misconstrued events. There are no doubt quite a few other ones that were simply thought up and written down or introduced by an editor with an agenda. A few were no doubt faked for less than laudable reasons (I have seen and smelled a miraculous 'weeping icon', for instance and immediately recognized the source of the 'myrrh'--cheap middle eastern rose oil. This and several other factors were a dead giveaway of mercenary fraud by the 'icon bearer', who is considered a saint by a certain portion of the Russian Orthodox Church).

But there is no reason to believe any of these miracles. There is also no reason to 'believe' the atheist assertion that there is no God. I side with the atheists precisely for their lack of belief. It is an assertion, not a belief, and to disprove it one needs to prove the existence of God. That proof, or at least the attempt, is an occupation that has set rivers of ink flowing over the centuries and produced some very clever writing. All of that writing ultimately falls short of one particular: you can't prove a matter of faith. If I say that I believe that Mickey Mouse is real and created Disney World as a sign to lead us to paradise the burden of proof is on me. I have to produce the divine mouse and show that he laid out the park and that huge parking lot. But if I'm a Rodentarian, then that's what I believe, and no amount of asphalt bills signed by Walt Disney will dissuade me.

If you believe, that's your business. I don't believe, but respect those who do, Mouse jokes aside. I expect believers to extend the same courtesy to me, and am happy to live in an age where, outside of Moslem countries at least, atheists are not killed for their lack of faith.

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:13PM

"I expect believers to extend the same courtesy to me, and am happy to live in an age where, outside of Moslem countries at least, atheists are not killed for their lack of faith."

Of course you won't be killed for your unbelief, and in fact you are more likely to be slandered for your steadfast belief in the Word of God, than for NOT believing.

Yes, thankfully the Papal Inquisitions are over, but they DO continue in spirit here on these very pages to those of us who choose to stand on the very Words of God.
That's one type of persecution for the believer, though.
The unbeliever is free to live the most blasphemous of immoral lives here in this country, and indeed it is the way of the World.
Since the Lord doesn't want puppets, but wants love toward Him by us~ real Christians understand this.
And so what we are simply called by Him to do, is preach the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ to those who may be His sheep and in the World and lost, looking for their Saviour but not knowing how to find Him~ and we are called to convince, warn, and save those who are on their way to the fire of Hell. For every Christian it is the call of God.
Some "disagree" with His Word and try and shut our mouths from so doing, but as Jesus said, the gates of Hell shall not prevail against His people.

You say that it is a matter faith and believing.
It's true that the Bible says that we must believe that God's Son, Jesus Christ came in the flesh, was crucified for the sins of the World, and rose from the dead in order to be saved. (Rom. 10:9 & 10).

Really, each person's conscience knows this is true but because of the sin that dwells in our members~ we deaden our consciences, and our hearts become hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. Unless God intervenes in one's life~ we become well on way to rejecting Him, and on the path to Hell by adulthood.

Sin is the cause of unbelief~ we are born with it, and it grows until it kills us and takes us to Hell. It's the reason Christ had to suffer and die on the cross for us~ and He did so willingly~ in our places, for our sins.

"If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin." Jn. 15:22.

This is where the Good News of the Gospel comes in. (Jn. 3:16).

But before I give you His Words in Jn. 3:16, I will tell you this:
God's very Creation bears Him witness so that no man has any excuse:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth.
For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
Ever since the Creation of the world His invisible Nature, namely, his Eternal Power and Deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to Him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened." Rom. 1:18-21.

So really, it isn't just a matter of blind faith at all~ it is seeing with our very has what God has made~ all around us! And the amazing thing is, He created it all for us to enjoy!

And according to His Word~ faith "comes by the hearing of the Word".

"So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ." Rom. 10:17.

"Does He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?" Gal. 3:1.

I remember when I was newly Christian, I doubted. I will never forget how reading about the miracle of Betty Baxter increased my faith, and that every time I read the Bible, my faith grew!
It is better than a physical miracle when you are born anew, or as it's actually written in the original Greek~ regenerated form above~ by His Holy Spirit. And that is what He wants for YOU, too.

You can call it spiritual physics, or cause and effect. God has Created Mankind and the World and everything in it.
If we love Him and honor Him and confess Him, we get to go to Heaven and be with Him in His amazing Presence for all eternity.

If we reject Him and dishonor Him and therefore hate Him, we go to Hell, where the Devil~ God's enemy, and his angels are going to be~ for all eternity.

He gets to make the rules, not us. His promises are, for those who love Him~ all good and wonderful.
But if we go against what He wants for us~ Eternal Life~ and reject Him~ we condemn our own selves.

His will is that none should perish.

Here is the Gospel (the good news) of Jesus Christ in a nutshell:

"For God so loved the world that He
gave His only begotten Son, that everyone
believing into Him should not perish, but
have everlasting life.
For God did not send His Son into the
world that He might judge the world, but
that the world might be saved through Him.
The one believing into Him is not condemned;
but the one not believing has already
been condemned, for he has not believed
into the name of the only begotten
Son of God.
And this is the judgment, that the Light
has come into the world, and men loved
the darkness more than the Light, for their
works were evil.
For everyone practicing wickedness
hates the Light, and does not come to the
Light, that his works may not be exposed.
But the one doing the truth comes to
the Light, that his works may be revealed,
that they are being worked in God." Jn. 3:16-21.

I hope that you will seek Him now, He waits to be gracious to you.

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 1:11AM

Nick: "1st and 2nd Maccabees are Inspired Scriptures, despite Luther and Calvin wrongly ejecting them from Canon."

Duh, the Jews rejected them long before that.

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 1:32AM

Rich D,

Are you familiar with the Interlinear Bible put out by Jay P. Green?

Which Bible do you use? I was impressed with your posts in the other thread about the different languages etc. I'm fairly new (new being for the past 6 or so years out of the over 40 I've been a Christian) to using the Interlinear, and absolutely love it!

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 2:32AM

Print too small, can't read the Hebrew vowel points and cantellation marks, Greek text is the more faulty Majority Text used for the KJV, and not the better Alexandrian, can't read the breathing and accent marks in the Greek, Strong's numbers are sometimes inaccurate or missing. Do not buy it. If you don't read Hebrew or Greek, but separate interlinear versions.

I use the Biblia Hebraica Stuttgartensia (BHS) large print edition (this is the Masoritic text with full textual apparatus and margin notes) along with the Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew/English lexicon (BDB). You have to know Hebrew.

For the NT, I use the Nestle-Aland Greek-English 27th edition (full apparatus with manuscript listings) and the Bower (BDAG) Greek-English lexicon. You have to know NT Koine Greek.

For plain reading, the most literal translation is the NASB; the ESV is less literal. The NRSV (Not Really Scripture Version) has been too sanitized and politically correct BUT if you can find an OLD HarperCollins NRSV Study Bible, 1993 edition, the notes are good. They even correct the translation frequently. Read their commentary and the NASB text! The new HarperCollins NRSV stinks. The KJV and NKJV families do not use the best Greek text sources. When buying any Bible, make sure that it follows the Masoretic Hebrew text and the Nestle-Aland Koine. Read the introduction before you buy. (Green's Interlinear does NOT use the better Greek source.) Here's a good summary:

http://www.olivetbaptistokc.com/subpage9.html

To go the digital route, buy BibleWorks Version 8, but that will set you back $250. You get multiple translations and the lexicons on the same screen display.

Well, Margie, this was probably too much of an answer. Sorry!

P.S. - you seem smart enough to study the original languages.

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:46PM

Rich,

I was raised in my Christian life reading from the good old RSV. I used to read the KJV too, because it seemed "deeper". I used to notice that the words were different and always wondered why that was. In discovering that there are versions in which translators sought to adhere as close to the original Hebrew and Greek as possible~ it is like~ after almost 40 years of my Christian life~ discover His Holy Word all over again! It really fills me with such joy!

Thanks for the explanation, and the link. We really do have enough studying to do for the rest of our short little lives on this planet, do we not?

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 1:03PM

p.s. thanks for the compliment. :^).
I do hope you stick around. You would do well especially with one who goes by the name of Stuart Koehl~ the resident Mr. Know-it-all.

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 3:00AM

Margie,

Thanks for reminding me!

In my last reply to you, from the Kephas/Rock discussion of ours, I had some questions about that Interlinear Bible that you use.

Here is part of that reply:

"I am confused as to why your translation has didaché, and mine has paradosis.

Would you please give me the link to Greek Interlinear site you are using? Is there more than one Greek Interlinear translation? (I really didn't look past the first one that popped up, sorry.) Because here is the site that I found, and it uses traditions, in 2 Thess. 2:15 :

http://www.scripture4all.org/O.....f/2th2.pdf

It clearly uses the Greek paradosis, παράδοσις, tradition. The Douay translation that I use, which provides the Greek and Latin, along with the thees and thous, also uses the same word: παραδόσεις. I am truly perplexed."

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:28PM

Here it is:

http://www.sgpbooks.com/cubeca.....fo_16.html

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 6:04PM

Margie,

Your link doesn't give the Greek word that is used in 2 Thess. 2: 15. It just has the English translation.

Did you click the link I provided? Although, like I've stated previously, teaching and tradition can be synonymous.

But, if it as big of deal as you say it is, then we must know which Greek word Paul used, don't you agree? Do you know any other sources that have the original Greek? This is a mystery that is starting to bug me! Ha-ha!

Let me know what you find.
God Bless!

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:30PM

And for an explanation about this literal translation:

http://www.sgpbooks.com/cubeca.....d_705.html

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 8:18PM

Margie, what is at issue here?

Margie| 7.5.11 @ 1:37AM

If you're asking about what Nick and I are discussing, it has to do with the whole Catholic teaching about Peter being "the rock" upon which Jesus built His church, and the Greek words that were used.

Also about the word Teachings vs. tradition.
When Paul said to keep to the teachings that the Apostles taught, whether by word or by letter..
Nick says he meant tradition.. and that is why Catholicism says its OK to go by the traditions of men.

Nick~~ I'm sorry, I did give you a link to the literal trans. of the KJV there and forgot it isn't the Interlinear there.
I will have to get back to you another time. I have to go with my husband to take care of Julia's burial arrangements.. God bless you and thanks again for your prayers and well wishes.
You too, RCV~ thank you.

Nick| 7.5.11 @ 9:28PM

Margie,

No need to apologize. I certainly understand that you have more important things to which you must attend.

Take as much time as you need. I'll still be here when you want to continue. And, I'm certainly in no rush!

May Our Lord, Jesus Christ, give your family strength.
God Bless!

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 3:46AM

Rich D.,

"Duh, the Jews rejected them long before that."

Duh? Really?
Umm...the Jews rejected Christ too, didn't they?

The Jews didn't reject the Septuagint until the 2nd century A.D., if I remember correctly. Who had more authority to declare what was the Inspired Word of God at that time? The Jewish authorities or the Christians?
God Bless!

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:27PM

Well then, it seems the Jews could recognize a spirit not of God better than the Catholics!

Nick| 7.6.11 @ 7:46PM

Margie,

Those same Jews rejected the New Testament.

Now, how well could these Jews "recognize a spirit not of God", again?

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:48PM

I was of course referring to the comment concerning the Apochrypha.

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 2:43PM

Some Jews rejected Christ, but enough didn't! Most Gentiles still reject Christ, so your comment is a non sequitur.

I have read several 1st century Jewish books in Greek, but none of them were considered canonical by the Jews or early Christians. That includes Baruch.

One of the classic books on this subject is F. F. Bruce's "The Canon of Scripture."

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 4:27PM

Rich D.,

"I have read several 1st century Jewish books in Greek, but none of them were considered canonical by the Jews or early Christians."

Then you should know that most of the Scripture quotations from the New Testament writers came from the LXX, rather than the Hebrew, correct? Christ quoted from the Septuagint repeatedly, cf Luke 3: 5-6 & 4: 18, to list but a few.

And, the so-called apocryphal books were indeed considered canonical by the early Christians.

"'Be just in your judgement' [Deut 1:16,17 Prov 31:9] make no distinction between man and man when correcting transgressions. Do not waver in your decision. 'Do not be one that opens his hands to receive, but shuts them when it comes to giving' [Sirach 4:31]." Didache, 4:3-5 (A.D. 90)."

"When you can do good, defer it not, because 'alms delivers from death'[Tobit 4:10,12:9]." Polycarp, To the Phillippians, 10 (A.D. 135)

I could list many more, if would like?

Finally, why should I trust Jewish councils that also rejected God's inspired Word in the New Testament? They rejected the Good News of Jesus Christ, so, they were obviously no experts in what belonged in the Canon of Scripture, were they?

God Bless!

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 7:30PM

Nick, well, I'll go with Bruce who writes that those other books weren't part of the Jewish canon.

They weren't written in Hebrew, and Jesus never quoted from any of them.

The writers never claimed inspiration.

They contain statements that are at variance with Scripture (including payment for reconciliation of the dead (2 Mac 12:43-45).

Antiochus dies three different deaths in three different places in the Maccabees books.

Alms make atonement for sin.

If the Devil, or an evil spirit troubles anyone, they can be driven away by making a smoke of the heart, liver, and gall of a fish...and the Devil will smell it, and flee away, and never come again anymore. (Tobit 6:5-8)

The NT never references the Apocrypha.

Jerome says, "As the Church reads the books of Judith and Tobit and Maccabees but does not receive them among the canonical Scriptures, so also it reads Wisdom and Ecclesiasticus for the edification of the people, not for the authoritative confirmation of doctrine."

The Jerusalem scribes banned the Septuagint because of the insertion of the Greek deuterocanonical books. Justin Martyr complained that the hellenized Jews mutilated Holy Writ.

Your comment that the Jews couldn't be trusted to know their own canon is ludicrous. It was a consistent tradition before the Hellenists - even Josephus who sympathized with them testifies to this. You can list all of the quotes that you like, but they are late products. I'm surprised that you quote the Didache which says to have the candidate for baptism fast for one or two days. It also says to give first fruits to the prophets. See how the laws of men creep in?

Margie| 7.5.11 @ 6:27PM

Rich,

It truly does not matter to them.. at all. Their Religion trumps the Word of God. They demand answers from you (in the case of the nasty "W" here~ and yet they do not want the truth.

Then they will destroy you personally with attacks on your very soul for daring to speak from the Bible.

This is all those who worship the Babylonian Whore~ false Religion.

Nick is "nice", but he too chooses to adhere to it. No matter the very Words of God spoken by Christians here.

It simply does not matter.

Nick| 7.5.11 @ 9:21PM

Rich D.,

"Nick, well, I'll go with Bruce who writes that those other books weren't part of the Jewish canon."

So, you are appealing to the authority of men, correct?

"Antiochus dies three different deaths in three different places in the Maccabees books."

This is the kind of argument non-believers use against all of the Scriptures: "The Gospel of John says Christ died on Passover, while the lambs were being slaughtered. The Synoptic Gospels say Christ ate the Passover meal the night he was betrayed, i.e., on Thursday night. So, the Gospels contradict each other."

Would you please provide where in 1st & 2nd Maccabees these three deaths occur, so that I may research this further?

"The NT never references the Apocrypha."

Yes, it does. Christ and the New Testament writers made references.

"And there shall come from the east and the west and the north and the south: and shall sit down in the kingdom of God." Luke 13: 29

"For behold your children come, whom you sent away scattered, they come gathered together from the east even to the west, at the word of the Holy One rejoicing for the honour of God." - Baruch 4: 37

"Jerome says [...]."

Yes, the early Church Fathers disagreed on many things, including what belonged in the Canon.

"Your comment that the Jews couldn't be trusted to know their own canon is ludicrous."

That was not my point. I apologize for not being clearer. My point was this:

Why should I trust men who rejected the Divine Inspiration of the New Testament? The fact that the Council of Jamnia rejected the Deuterocanonical books is not proof that they were 1) Competent to reject them; and 2) that they knew if the books were, or were not Inspired, since they also denied that the Gospel was the Inspired Word of God.

It seems we are both appealing to the authority of men. The Catholic Church appeals to both the Sacred Tradition and the Sacred Scriptures. You are appealing to men who rejected Jesus as the Messiah and God's Holy Word.

Rich D| 7.6.11 @ 2:29AM

Nick: "So, you are appealing to the authority of men, correct?"

Well, one is a most respected researcher on the topic (Bruce) who is writing history, not doctrine, another (St. Jerome) is a respected by your church, and the third (Josephus) was a contemporary historian. In addition to that, I used the internal evidence of the book itself to show that it can't be trusted. What more do you want?

Nick: "It seems we are both appealing to the authority of men."

Not for doctrine, at least not I!

Nick: "Why should I trust men who rejected the Divine Inspiration of the New Testament? The fact that the Council of Jamnia rejected the Deuterocanonical books is not proof that they were 1) Competent to reject them; and 2) that they knew if the books were, or were not Inspired, since they also denied that the Gospel was the Inspired Word of God."

There was no ecclesiastical council there - it was a minor rabbinic academy session that met to discuss Qoheleth and the Canticles, It did not fix the Hebrew canon. See

http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/b.....ia-WTJ.pdf

Nick| 7.6.11 @ 7:59PM

Rich D.,

"What more do you want?"

How about some facts. Facts would be nice.

You merely asserted that the Deuterocanonical books were not considered canonical by the early Christians. I showed that this was not true.

You then merely asserted that Christ never quoted from the Deuterocanonical books, and that the New Testament never references them. I showed that this, also, is not true.

The LXX is quoted more than the Hebrew by Christ and all of the New Testament writers. This is plain fact.

"Not for doctrine, at least not I!"

Deciding which books belong in the Sacred Canon of Scripture is not "doctrine"? Strange thought.

"There was no ecclesiastical council there [...]."

Going off on more tangents, again. And, ignoring my point entirely, again.

Can't you answer a simple question? Why are you appealing to the authority of men who rejected the Good News of Jesus Christ and the rest of the New Testament?

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 1:35AM

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 12:06AM

Rich D.,

"[...] as opposed to the disciples seeing a vision of Moses and Elijah as they would look when glorified?"

Where is this in the Scriptures? This sounds like your own private interpretation, in my opinion.

----

The Greek has Jesus telling the disciples, "to none tell the vision" - mEdeni eipEte to orama (Mt 17:9). Now as there were dead for quite some time, their bodies are only bone or even less. What else could the disciples see other than glorified bodies? Do you think that your current corruptible body will clothe you in heaven?

Nick: "We know that Christ conquered death, so, those in Heaven are not dead, they are "asleep in Christ" as Paul often put it, and very much alive."

Be careful how you interpret apocalyptic imagery. John "sees" the souls. But he also "sees" horses. Is the John's Revelation past, present, or future? If it is past, then why does Paul speak of sleep? Have you tossed out the Apostle's and Nicene creed, too?

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 3:32AM

Rich D.,

"Now as there [sic] were dead for quite some time, their bodies are only bone or even less."

Umm....Elijah went bodily to Heaven, like Enoch.

"And as they went on, walking and talking together, behold, a fiery chariot and fiery horses parted them both asunder: and Elias went up by a whirlwind into heaven." - 2 Kings 2: 11

And, it still doesn't change the fact that Christ communicated with the dead, no matter how they appeared to the 3 Apostles. I ask, again, aren't we supposed to imitate Christ? By your interpretation, I guess we could say that Peter, John, and James also communicated with the dead, huh?

"Be careful how you interpret apocalyptic imagery."

I'm not sure what your point is here, would you please explain? I described my views on the Book of Revelation to Margie, towards the top of this thread, to refute the charge that the Catholic Church is the dreaded Whore of Babylon. John's Revelation is elaborating the prophesy of Christ, i.e., the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, as recorded in the "Little Apocalypse" of Matthew 24.

I don't claim that Paul was speaking of the past, and, what does this have to do with the Creeds? I'm sorry, I need more clarification, please.

You didn't answer my other questions, in my 7.4.11 @ 12:06AM reply, by the way.
God Bless!

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 8:52AM

1 Cor 15:22-23 says that Christ is the FIRST fruit of being made alive in an incorruptible body. Therefore, neither Moses nor Elijah participated in the second part of glorification. There is no description of either as having a resurrected body, and no testimony that they were identified by sight. Having never seen either in their flesh, how would they identify them (same with Mary, by the way)? That Elijah was taken to heaven means that his soul ascended, not that he went in an corruptible body or received a resurrected body. A spirit can look like it has a body even when it does not - how else can an angel appear?

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:51PM

And to add more to the question~ which heaven did Elijah go up into, as there are several. There is Heaven, and then there are "the heavens".

I'm going to my Greek translation forthwith!!

Margie| 7.4.11 @ 12:53PM

Oh, but you are correct Rich and I agree with what you said, because you presented the Verse that says it all~ that Christ IS the first fruit of those who have fallen asleep!

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 5:40PM

Rich D.,

"1 Cor 15:22-23 says that Christ is the FIRST fruit of being made alive in an incorruptible body."

You were the one who claimed the Apostles saw Moses' and Elijah's glorified bodies, not me. So, again, exactly what is your point?

"That Elijah was taken to heaven means that his soul ascended [...]."

This is not what the Word of God says happened to Elijah. Did you read 2 Kings 2: 11?

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 9:07AM

There were four questions in your 12:06 AM post. Regarding imitating (question two), Jesus never prayed to anyone but the Father, and told us to do the same.

Your third question is rhetorical because it is a restatement of the point of discussion. The answer is "no", it would not be better. We are forbidden to do that because we have one intercessor.

The answer to the fourth is "yes" for the reasons already presented. We have one Helper, one Savior, and one prayer guide.

Nick| 7.4.11 @ 5:26PM

Rich D.,

"Regarding imitating (question two), Jesus never prayed to anyone but the Father, and told us to do the same."

Now which is it? Is it communicating or praying that is forbidden?

"The answer is 'no', it would not be better. We are forbidden to do that because we have one intercessor."

So, Saint Paul was wrong when he asked others to pray for him, because we only have one Intercessor?

"The answer to the fourth is "yes" for the reasons already presented."

If you see the difference between Duet. 18 and asking the dead to pray for us, why did start this whole discussion by asserting that "[c]ommunication with the dead is expressly forbidden"?

"I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead but of the living." - Matthew 22: 32

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 7:40PM

Me: "Regarding imitating (question two), Jesus never prayed to anyone but the Father, and told us to do the same."

Nick: Now which is it? Is it communicating or praying that is forbidden?

Why are you being like that and dragging this out? Isn't the purpose of prayer to communicate?

Nick again: "So, Saint Paul was wrong when he asked others to pray for him, because we only have one Intercessor?"

It's clear that you have lost focus. Please try again later.

Nick| 7.5.11 @ 7:51PM

Rich D.,

Bringing up all these tangential issues will not change the fact that Christ, as you have admitted, communicated with the dead. You also agreed that there is a difference between the prohibitions in Deut. 18 and asking those who have died to pray for/with us.

So....what is your argument?
And, what is your answer to the question of whether it is wrong to ask others to pray for us? Even though we only have one Intercessor, Jesus Christ?

Rich D| 7.4.11 @ 7:51PM

Nick: "You were the one who claimed the Apostles saw Moses' and Elijah's glorified bodies, not me. So, again, exactly what is your point?"

Here is exactly what I said: "...disciples seeing a vision of Moses and Elijah as they would look when glorified?"

Note the word "would". My further explanation was this "What else could the disciples see other than glorified bodies?" That is a question!

The answer to this followed a discussion of John's seeing horses, too. See my post from 7.4.11 @ 8:52AM. They saw VISIONS. Spirits looking as though they had bodies. Did you gloss over the full explanation?

Elijah is DEAD. His soul went to heaven - his earthly body did not. Yours will not. Jesus's did not. Sleep on it.

Nick| 7.5.11 @ 8:20PM

Rich D.,

"Elijah is DEAD."

Show me where, in the Scriptures, this is written?

"Jesus's [sic] did not."

What? Jesus' body is not in Heaven? Where, pray tell, is it?
Unless, you meant that it was His glorified Body which ascended to Heaven?

Rich D| 7.6.11 @ 2:49AM

You know what I mean we ALL die a physical death in our corruptible bodies, as did Jesus. If not, the whole thing is a fraud an we are lost. I f Jesus is the first fruit of the resurrection in a an incorruptible body, then Elijah died and was not present at the transfiguration in a glorified body. The question for you is when do the dead get raised up in their glorified bodies.

Rich D| 7.6.11 @ 3:08AM

Nick: "What? Jesus' body is not in Heaven? Where, pray tell, is it?
Unless, you meant that it was His glorified Body which ascended to Heaven?"

Also, you just gave evidence for the falsity of the claim of transubstantiation - Jesus's resurrected body IS at the right hand of the Father as I have quoted from Scripture; therefore, it is not present in pieces in the elements. The Spirit is here until he returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. Is he a liar? See John 21:22, 7:33-34, 39, Mk 16:19, Acts 2:24, 33.

Nick| 7.6.11 @ 7:39PM

Rich D.,

Christ's resurrected Body can be in a million billion places at once, if He chooses. He is God, after all.

Rich D| 7.8.11 @ 1:05AM

Uh, that is distinctly NOT the case. We are to get a resurrected body just like his, and for all of us to be in pieces would be ridiculous. You lack the basic fundamentals to understand the incarnation and resurrection.

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 3:46AM

Rich D.,

"Uh, that is distinctly NOT the case."

Why? Because you have decreed it?
Do you have any Scripture references to back that up, or just mere assertions?

Christ can create space and time, i.e., the universe, but, He can't change bread and wine into His Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity?

Way to limit God there, Rich.
God Bless!

Nick| 7.6.11 @ 7:41PM

Also, still no answers to my questions, huh?
No, just more tangents.

Rich D| 7.8.11 @ 1:25AM

Are you serious? Which ones are unanswered? Perhaps you have skipped some posts.

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 3:26AM

Rich D.,

"Perhaps you have skipped some posts."

Pot calling Kettle. Try using your scroll button sometime.

weddingdress | 7.5.11 @ 4:16AM

If we had a president and an administration that was moral, crony capitalism wouldn't happen. It would be illegal.

Dacron Mather| 7.5.11 @ 4:55AM

is Post-American a Pre-O'Hannigan, or is it the other way round ?

Either way, Bethell has some stiff competition

Nick| 7.6.11 @ 2:08AM

Margie,

Sorry, I missed your 7.4.11 @ 11:23AM post. I had the whole family over yesterday, it was hectic.

I believe that I am obeying the Word of God. I've made this abundantly clear by using the Scriptures, as the Catholic Church does, to support Her teachings.

With respect, I don't think that you are understanding these verses (Hebrews 7: 27-28) in the context of first century Judaism.

The phrase "once for all" is used again in Chapter 9:

"But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tabernacle (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) He entered once for all into the Holy Place, taking not the blood of goats and calves but His own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. For if the sprinkling of defiled persons with the blood of goats and bulls and with the ashes of a heifer sanctifies for the purification of the flesh, how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, purify your conscience from the dead works to serve the living God." (verses 11-14)

Chapters 7,8, & 9 of Hebrews compare the sacrifice of Christ on Calvary with the Temple sacrifices of the Levitical Priesthood.

On the Day of Atonement, which happened every year, the high priest would sacrifice a bull and a goat, he would then go into the Holy of Holies and sprinkle blood on the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant. (And what was in the Ark? The tablets, the manna from Heaven, and Aaron's rod that budded. In other words, the Word of God, the Bread of Life, and a wooden Cross.)

The high priest would leave the Tabernacle and sprinkle blood on the horns of the altar. Then he would release the scapegoat. (See Leviticus 16.)

Now, Christ is "designated by God a high priest after the order of Melchizedek" (Heb. 5: 10). Psalm 110: 4 (probably 109 in your Bible) tells us that "the LORD has sworn and will not change His mind, 'You are a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.'"

God swears an oath that the Messiah will not be a Levite priest. And, that He will be a priest "forever." But, who is this Melchizedek?

He was the king of Salem (cf Gen. 14: 17-20) and also a priest "of God Most High." So, Christ was to be a priest-king, forever, and was not a Levite.

Back to the Day of Atonement. The high priest sheds the blood of the sacrificial animals (a bull and a goat) and sprinkles the blood on the Ark (in Christ's time, the blood was sprinkled in the empty Holy of Holies.) This sacrifice of blood was for the forgiveness of Israel's sins, but, it was temporary. It had to be repeated every year.

Christ is the new High Priest-King....and He is the Perfect Sacrifice to Atone for all of mankind's sins, once for all.

Christ is the unblemished and sinless offering, Whose blood is shed on the Cross of Calvary. He dies once for all:

"For Christ has entered, not into a sanctuary made with hands, a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Nor was it to offer Himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the Holy Place yearly with blood not his own; for then He would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, He has appeared once for all at the end of the age to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself." (Heb. 9: 24-26)

So, Christ died on Calvary once, Ascended to Heaven, i.e., the true Temple in the Heavenly Jerusalem (that has no time,) and "appears in the presence of God" both as the offered victim and the one who offers the sacrifice as High Priest "on our behalf," i.e., for all. Christ offers Himself as the sinless sacrifice, ceaselessly, because He also holds the office of the High Priest. One might call this sacrifice perpetual.

And, this perpetual sacrifice is made present again at the Holy Mass, where Heaven meets earth, and the faithful sacramentally join themselves to the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, when they "eat [His] flesh and drink [His] blood" as He, Himself, commanded (cf John 6: 53-58).

If you are interested, I can link to an article that explains this in a little more detail?
God Bless!

Rich D| 7.6.11 @ 3:48AM

Sorry, Nick. Heb, 7:27 says gar epoiEsen epapax eauton" = "for he did once himself" and Heb. 9:26 says "de apax epi sunteleia tom aiOnOn" = "but once in consummation (of) the ages". Saying "once for all" to mean for all people is misleading, and for all to mean time is also, because "sunteleia" means the completion (intended climax) that ushers in a new time era.

Your comment that "one might call the sacrifice perpetual" is eisegesis. Indeed, one might,but one shouldn't because that's not what the Greek says. It is the EFFECT of the sacrifice that is perpetual because it ushered in a new age, having completed the old age and as the text continues, "to set aside sin by means of the sacrifice of himself he made himself manifest." Look at it this way - when you pay a debt in full, you stop making payments because the debt is paid off in perpetuity. Christ paid the whole debt for past, present, and future sins in ONE payment.

Tony in Central PA| 7.7.11 @ 9:27PM

I think Nick has been making some really great points. One of the reasons Catholicism is where it finds itself today in America is the result of some pretty bad catechesis for a few decades. It seems that Nick defied the trend.

The charge I have often heard from Christian Fundamentalists is that Christ is resacrificed at the Mass. This is not true. While it is true that Christ was sacrificed once for all, He is not limited in time the way we humans are. God exists in an unrestricted reality. If Christ's sacrifice was something trapped in a particular place in time, how would there then be the possibility of forgiveness for those who sinned after this place in time ?

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 3:24AM

Tony in Central PA,

"It seems that Nick defied the trend."

Thank you, very much. But, no, I grew up in the '70s and '80s, with all the abuses in the wake of the Second Vatican Council.

Thanks to my late mother, who, after having the Holy Spirit use her to get my father back into the Church when I was 13/14, prayed like Saint Monica to get her children to start living their Catholic faith.

Her prayers weren't answered, in my case, until I was in my late 20s. Thanks to those prayers, I have been studying what the Church actually teaches for over a dozen years now.

I'm sure my mom is with Saint Monica, and all the mothers who pray constantly for their children, singing praises to Christ, as I type this.
God Bless!

Rich D| 7.8.11 @ 7:57AM

You're trying to have it both ways.

First, Jesus do it as a remembrance, not a re-sacrifice.
Second, I can pay for your train ticket before you are born.
Third, nothing is "trapped" - that's useless talk. The Cross was an historical event, so it happened at a particular place and time.

You say "The charge I have often heard from Christian Fundamentalists is that Christ is resacrificed at the Mass. This is not true."

Here is what your catechism says:

360. Why is the Mass the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross?

The Mass is the same sacrifice as the sacrifice of the cross because in the Mass the victim is the same,...

361. What are the purposes for which the Mass is offered?

The purposes for which the Mass is offered are: ... fourth, to satisfy the justice of God for the sins committed against Him.

Victim? Satisfy? Justice? Sure sounds like a sacrifice to me!

362 ...in the Mass He applies to us the merits and satisfaction of His death on the cross.

Here we go with doctrines of works again.

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 4:17PM

Rich D.,

You are aware that the Baltimore Catechism was written for children? What you quoted is correct and true, but, it was meant for the understanding of children.

If you are interested in a more in-depth explanation of the Catholic Mass, read paragraphs 1322-1419 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

http://www.vatican.va/archive/.....s2c1a3.htm

Nick| 7.7.11 @ 12:46AM

Rich D.,

I just read another refutation to your assertions about the Septuagint.

Saint Paul quoted from the LXX in Romans 11 & 15. In Romans 11: 26-27, Paul quotes Isaiah 59: 20 from the LXX. In Romans 15: 12, he quotes Isaiah 11:10 from the LXX.

Saint James quotes the LXX version of Amos 9: 11-12 during the Council of Jerusalem as recorded in Acts 15: 16-17.

In all three examples, if the Hebrew Masoretic text is used, it changes the Gentile-inclusive arguments that Paul and James are making.

So, the Apostles accepted the Septuagint as the Inspired Word of God and used it to make their points in their letters.

Rich D| 7.7.11 @ 9:34PM

Of course. The LXX was the only text that most could read because Hebrew was becoming lost except for within the Temple. My focus was on the Apocrypha, which was not canonical until Trent. Did you forget?

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 3:07AM

Rich D.,

Why would Christ, and the New Testament writers, use the Septuagint if it contained books in its canon that were not inspired? Wouldn't He have rejected the LXX and only used the Masoretic text, like you? (Plus, Christ referenced the Dueterocanonical books, as I have previously shown you.)

"[...] which was not canonical until Trent."

This is not true. Up until the 4th century A.D., different churches had different canons. Some rejected Esther and Revelation, while others rejected Baruch. The "disputed" books, including the Dueterocanonical ones, were included in the canon by the Council of Hippo in A.D. 393, and the Third Council of Carthage in A.D. 397. Pope Innocent I confirmed the permanent Canon in A.D. 405. This meant that they could all be preached by the bishops in all the churches. Some Christians continued to dispute some of these books, until the Council of Trent.

Trent reaffirmed that the "disputed" books, including all of the LXX books, were the Inspired Word of God, to counter Luther's heresy. This included the Book of Revelation, by the way.

Hope this cleared up any misunderstandings.
God Bless!

Rich D| 7.8.11 @ 8:03AM

Jesus went into the Temple and picked up a scroll and read from Isaiah - do you think that it was in Greek?

You are beating a dead horse. Those other books were not used to determine doctrine. They were not in the Jewish canon. Read Bruce. I'm done with this topic.

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 3:56PM

Rich D.,

I'm assuming that you are referring to when Christ quoted Isaiah 61: 1-2 in Nazareth, to proclaim the long awaited Jubilee Year and that the Messiah had arrived, as recorded in the Gospel of Luke (4: 18-19)?

As a matter of fact, Christ did quote from the Septuagint. Didn't you look this up before you made such a statement? Allow me to help.

RSV Luke 4: 18-19 :
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."

Source: http://www.antioch.com.sg/cgi-bin/bible.pl

LXX Isaiah 61: 1-2 :
"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me; he has sent me to preach glad tidings to the poor, to heal the broken in heart, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind; to declare the acceptable year of the Lord [...]."

Source: http://ecmarsh.com/lxx/Esaias/index.htm

Hebrew Masoretic Text Isaiah 61: 1-2 :
"The spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to bring good tidings unto the humble; He hath sent me to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the eyes to them that are bound; To proclaim the year of the LORD'S good pleasure [...]."

The Septuagint comprises 2/3 of the Old Testament quotations in the New Testatment.

"Those other books were not used to determine doctrine."

This is your standard as how to determine whether or not a book is canonical? Are you aware that the books of Eccles., Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations, Nahum, and the Song of Songs are not quoted in the New Testament?

Will you now rip those books out of your Bible? As Luther did to the Dueterocanonical books?

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 3:58PM

You can only have two links per comment. Here's the source for the Hebrew MT:

http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1061.htm

Rich D| 7.8.11 @ 8:04AM

Margie, are you still here?

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 4:28PM

Margie's mother-in-law passed away on Monday (see posts above.) If you see her commenting in another AmSpec thread, and ask her about this thread, I'm sure she will be more than happy to respond.
God Bless!

Nick| 7.8.11 @ 11:55PM

Here's a prophecy from the Book of Wisdom, written probably between 150 and 250 years before Christ suffered on Calvary:

"Let us lie in wait for the righteous man, because he is inconvenient to us and opposes our actions; he reproaches us for sins against the law, and accuses us of sins against our training.
He professes to have knowledge of God, and calls himself a child of the Lord.
He became to us a reproof of our thoughts;
the very sight of him is a burden to us, because his manner of life is unlike that of others, and his ways are strange.
We are considered by him as something base, and he avoids our ways as unclean; he calls the last end of the righteous happy, and boasts that God is his father.
Let us see if his words are true, and let us test what will happen at the end of his life;
for if the righteous man is God's son, he will help him, and will deliver him from the hand of his adversaries.
Let us test him with insult and torture, that we may find out how gentle he is, and make trial of his forbearance.
Let us condemn him to a shameful death, for, according to what he says, he will be protected." - Wisdom 2: 12-20

Gee, you think there might have been a reason that the first century Jews might have wanted to declare the Septuagint, and with it, the Dueterocanonical books (like Wisdom) as not inspired by God?

"And they that passed by blasphemed him, wagging their heads, and saying: Vah, you who destroys the temple of God and in three days rebuilds it: save your own self. If you be the Son of God, come down from the cross. In like manner also the chief priests, with the scribes and ancients, mocking said: He saved others: himself he cannot save. If he be the king of Israel, let him now come down from the cross: and we will believe him. He trusted in God: let him now deliver him if he will have him. For he said: I am the Son of God." - Matthew 27: 39-43

Aluminum Wallet | 10.9.11 @ 2:20AM

We all know which side eventually succeeded, and this presidency has been historical in its entremity.

Peanut Machine | 10.19.11 @ 11:15PM

It might lower the amount of fast-onset community effort to find exploits, but it isn't going to stop the dedicated criminals who are going to look for exploits themselves anyway.

dual saw | 11.15.11 @ 9:12PM

Since every language has its own accents and dialects, the accuracy rate will be higher for native speakers.

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