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Streetcar Line
Yes, We Still Have a Prayer
The right kind of politics of faith.
Pray.
Really. Pray.
Praying might just be what we need if we want this blessed country to thrive as a beacon of freedom.
It’s always a bit of a risk, and can be borderline off-putting, to intertwine prayer and politics in an overt way, or even to seem to do so. Readers or listeners rightly recoil when somebody suggests that God takes sides in politics, or that his (the person’s) own politics are more godly than that of his opponents, or (worse) that he undertook his own candidacy or cause because God “told” him to do so. That’s not what this is about. This also isn’t one of those “the-sky-is-falling” sorts of rants in which the point is that the nation is somehow on the verge of utter disaster and can be saved only by openly miraculous, divine intervention. Things aren’t great in the good’ol USA right now, but we’re not (quite) at that extremity yet.
Instead, at issue here is something more subtle. At issue is a country that has lost its way, in part because far too many millions of its individual citizens have lost their own way in their daily lives. The full litany of ills is so familiar that anything more than a sample list of them would be boring: out-of-wedlock pregnancies, abortions, hideously trashy prime-time TV shows, raunchy music, attire in public that isn’t just slovenly but scandalous, casual acceptance of financial cheating… and more, ad infinitum. Another, less-recognized sin is that of a certain form of sloth, which shows itself in declining standards across the board — as evidenced, for just one example, in this week’s story (similar to dozens of other stories on such subjects in the past two decades) about just how pathetically American children do on tests of the most basic historical (or civic-related) information. (What gets lost in this case is any sort of common culture, or at least a common culture with more depth and value than Survivor and “Dancing with the Stars.)
The “lost way” also shows itself — if personal, unscientific observation is to be believed — in declining church attendance, at least in many denominations; and in the declining role of faith in individual lives, as measured more formally by polls and surveys. It certainly shows itself in our politics, which — even for people whose idealism has been tempered by decades in the fray — seems more disjointed, dysfunctional, and petty than ever. In a constitutional republic that for 224 years really has worked remarkably well to reflect the character and collective sensibilities of its citizens, politics that have grown unusually dysfunctional and atomized can be assumed to signal a populace likewise more dysfunctional and atomized than in previous eras. After so many years of working far better than not, our Madisonian system can be assumed not to have suddenly stopped working; instead, it works all too well to show how flawed we as a people may have become.
None of which is to deny that we as Americans retain strengths, collectively and individually, that still can make us a beacon for the world. Gloom and doom are not our ordinary attributes, and certainly not the point here. We also are the most generous people on Earth, the most consistently productive people on Earth, and have done more good for humankind than any other nation in the history of the world. We still do so, every day.
The problem is that we seem to do so with less confidence than before — with predictably less impressive results, on many fronts — and that the lack of confidence seems to come as much from our souls as from our conscious wills. While we do not suffer from a Jimmy Carter-like malaise, we nevertheless do not, individually or collectively, project or own best selves into the international or domestic public arenas with the same surety or verve as we once did. (It doesn’t help, of course, that we have a president who thinks it a virtue to “lead from behind,” but that isn’t what this really is about.) The signs, greater and lesser, are all around us: The dollar begins to lose its status as the world’s reserve currency; our diplomatic efforts are met with at least as much disdain as respect; our manufactured products and even our culture are less popular or valued than they were 20 years ago; and even our athletes (tennis, golf, baseball, track) not only fail to dominate as they once did but actually get dominated, repeatedly, in open competition.
We need renewal. And the renewal must be far more substantive than vague (and cynical) appeals to “hope and change.” We also need wisdom, a commodity that seems in short supply. Knowledge and know-how, technological adeptness and social networking: These won’t do. Wisdom is something different, deeper, more profound and more personally challenging than those other attributes. Only wisdom can help us determine right from wrong not just in daily life but in the civic realm; only wisdom can help us distinguish demagoguery from reason; only wisdom can help us choose servants instead of self-seekers to lead us.
This is where prayer comes in.
We should not pray for our candidates to win. We should not pray for our side to prevail. We should not pray for our goals to be met, our desires satisfied, our issues handled the way we want, or for God to block the paths of our adversaries. Down that road, again, lies the temptation to confuse, even in all sincerity, our own wills for God’s will. It is hardly original to point out that the Kingdom of God is not a program of social reform, and that we should not mistake our own reformist aims for His.
But we should pray, with all due devotion and humility, for wisdom. We should pray for wisdom and for the means of virtue, and for the forgiveness when we fall so that we can return to virtue and wisdom again. If we have wisdom and virtue in our own life, we will have the wherewithal to build better communities, and with better communities we will have the wherewithal to build a better polity.
It so happens that the University of Mobile (full disclosure: with which I am now professionally associated, but that’s NOT why I wrote this column) is leading an initiative called the “twelve23 Movement” that is expressly dedicated to the sort of renewal this nation needs. It includes a pledge that begins thusly: “I am a citizen of the United States of America. I love my country, and I will defend the Constitution of this great nation. I believe that America was founded upon Judeo-Christian values that must be maintained as prescribed by our founding fathers.” The pledge ends like this: “Therefore, as one who loves this country, I pledge my honor to God and my allegiance to America. I commit to lead our nation to the concepts for which our founding fathers were willing to die — a government by the people and the exercise of individual liberty — with firm reliance upon Almighty God.”
We could all do worse than to take to heart, and live the values of, twelve23.
As for prayer in general, we need to pray because it will take wisdom of a profound sort — the sort hard to attain without a divine spark — for us to do the things we need, and make the choices we need, to renew America. As C.S. Lewis wrote in his book The Grand Miracle, “So much for the decline of religion, now for a Christian revival.” Later in the book: “As Christians we are tempted to make unnecessary concessions to those outside the faith. We give in too much. Now, I don’t mean that we should run the risk of making a nuisance of ourselves by witnessing at improper times, but there comes a time when we must show that we disagree…. We cannot remain silent or we concede everything away.” And: “The great thing is to be found at one’s post as a child of God, living each day as though it were our last, but planning as though our world might last a hundred years.”
To that I would only add that for civic purposes, we must broaden Lewis’s discussion to encompass not merely Christianity, but the larger Judeo-Christian ethos to which we are heirs. We pray to the same God the Father, and we are also heirs to the same promise of joy. But both personally and in community, that promise cannot be fulfilled if we do not pray for discernment, guidance and, yes, a wisdom beyond ordinary human ken.
About the Author
Quin Hillyer is a senior editor of The American Spectator and a senior fellow at the Center for Individual Freedom. Follow him on Twitter @QuinHillyer.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (95) | Leave a comment
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Ken (Old Texican)| 6.17.11 @ 7:13AM
Quin,
well spoken, sir.
...or put another way..."do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with God."
It's in the book!
www.txbooks.blogspot.com
"America Alone Said NO" (to sharia law)
Timothy L. Pennell| 6.17.11 @ 7:41AM
I PRAY that this MUSLIM President will be GONE, come January 21, 2012, before he can fulfill the Demonic Musings of his long lost Father. A Marxist/Muslim, who DIED DRUNK, in a Kenyan Gutter. And, who's DREAM it was, to see the Destruction of the Imperialist West.
Something, this President, seems well on his way to accomplishing.
GOD help us all.
Ryan| 6.17.11 @ 9:25AM
I pray for his salvation, for his decisions, that God would truly influence his leadership.
We are commanded to pray for rulers:
I Tim 2: 1 First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
David T| 6.17.11 @ 10:25AM
I think St. Paul was exhorting, not commanding, us to pray for our political leaders. Nevertheless, I would pray for Obama's salvation. At the same time, however, I would pray that he would be removed as far as possible from the seat of power.
Ryan| 6.17.11 @ 12:27PM
Good point; and I think you're right on all parts. That being said, I think that it was one of the Church's great failings during Clinton's time, and we fail if we do NOT pray for President Obama at this time.
Doctor Right| 6.17.11 @ 11:51AM
Sorry, but I'm an American...
...I don't have a "ruler". I live in a Republic.
Ryan| 6.17.11 @ 12:26PM
Does it matter?
Does it mean we shouldn't pray for him?
David T| 6.17.11 @ 12:44PM
Ryan--you can't reason with Doctor Right. He thinks he's his own authority.
David C| 6.19.11 @ 11:43PM
David T: "you can't reason with Doctor Right. He thinks he's his own authority."
In that case, Doctor Right is an actual adult. He trusts his own experience rather than thinking that all the answer's to life's troubles will be found in the opinions of people who lived and died ages ago.
People who are content to be St. Paul puppets are children (obedience being a virtue for children -- not grown ups.)
Margie| 6.20.11 @ 12:07AM
Ok, I'll bite.
What's a St. Pail puppet?
Oh, wait, I know!
You think you're a Christian but reject what the Spirit filled Apostle Paul wrote.
Am I right?
David C| 6.21.11 @ 7:56AM
Um... "St. Paul puppets" was supposed to read "St. Paul's puppets." But I hardly think the missing apostrophe s changes much.
Saying Paul was "Spirit filled" is an assertion I know neither how can be confirmed or refuted. You believe Paul to have been filled by the Holy Spirit because it pleases you to believe it. In other words, it is a dogma. As I've written before on these boards (including to David T) I don't respect religious dogma.
And I never said I was a Christian.
Margie| 6.22.11 @ 12:31AM
Pardon me then, for mistaking you for a Christian. There are some here who call themselves that but reject the teachings of Paul, and I mistook you for one of them.
I once was an agnostic, many years ago, but someone presented the gospel to me.. I had a lot of questions and was doubting and had grown cynical. But then I allowed myself to be open to God's truth, as written in the Bible, and I admit, I put Him to the test.
I promised Him that if He would reveal Himself to me that I'd follow Him for the rest of my life. He did, and in such a way that I am simply not ABLE to ever doubt Him anymore.
What I know is that He is righteous and true, and that He keeps His word. I also know that He is willing to forgive sin, if you are willing to admit you have it.
The proof that you need is available upon honest humble request.. it is wonderful. He is wonderful. The fact is that you can come to know Him~ or rather actually be known by Him.
I'm not into dogma either. I'm into Truth. Did you know that Jesus IS the Truth?
He isn't into us being "Religious"~ He died for us so that we could be set free from Religion. He actually hates it.
Got a Bible?
Read Isaiah chapter one. You'll see.
What He is looking for is for people who seek Him. Wise men still do. He wants a personal relationship with us, and the way He's made it possible is by His Spirit.
Another one of His promises.. is that you can ask for it. You can ask for His Spirit to come into your heart.
Here~ I'll leave you with His own words to that effect. And may God bless you and reveal Himself to you in the same way He did for me:
"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" Lk. 11:13.
"A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to observe my ordinances." Ez. 36:26 & 27.
Ryan| 6.20.11 @ 10:00AM
So...all the ideas that arose in ancient times are worthless?
So I can cast aside ideas like...don't murder? Or don't steal? Or Do unto others as you would have them do unto you?
David C| 6.21.11 @ 7:58AM
Seriously, Ryan?
You can't tell the difference between following an idea because you judge it to be wise and good and following it because its originator is an authority?
Who reads the Spectator anyway? Kindergartners?
Ryan| 6.21.11 @ 8:20AM
The problem is that your statement appears to be somewhat of an overstatement - that there isn't a crossing between experience and seeing how someone's ancient opinion is invalid because it is so old. Maybe I jumped the gun a little, but that was the first appearance of what you stated.
David C| 6.21.11 @ 6:57PM
Ryan,
You're not really helping yourself here, because your comment comes across as highly confused:
"that there isn't a crossing between experience and seeing how someone's ancient opinion is invalid because it is so old"
Just what is the objection here? I thought you objected to my rejecting opinions because of their age, not because the rejection was based on experience. Furthermore, basing an rejection (or acceptance) of some teaching soley on its age seems based in prejudice, not in experience of the relevant matters.
For the record, I never objected to anything based on its antiquity. When I praised people who judge matters based on their own living experience instead of
"rather than thinking that all the answer's to life's troubles will be found in the opinions of people who lived and died ages ago"
I was criticizing the dogmatic elevation of religious texts to the status of unquestionable authorities. The age of the text is unimportant. And my criticism would equally apply to any unquestionable authority, be it a person, a group, a text, or anything else.
Doctor Right| 6.17.11 @ 2:51PM
You totally missed my point.
BIG surprise there...
And yes, it matters.
Nick| 6.18.11 @ 6:22PM
Doctor Wrong,
"And yes, it matters."
So...Pope Bigot I has decreed that he can reject Saint Paul's teaching "[urging] that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and [ALL] who are in authority" by Christians?
We Americans may not have "a ruler" but we do have those "who are in authority" over us.
Do you also reject Christ's teaching "to love your enemies and pray for those that persecute you"? (Matthew 5:44)
David C| 6.19.11 @ 11:50PM
Nick,
A prayer for those who hold positions of authority so the governed may "lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity" is entirely different in spirit to the prayer Jesus recommends in the scripture you quote.
In any event, you all continue to abuse D.R.'s point. Why it so pleases you to do so I do not know.
Nick| 6.20.11 @ 12:59PM
David C.,
Yes, they are completely different. I was using Christ's words as a weapon, which is wrong. Thank you for pointing it out.
I apologize to Doctor Right for my thoughtlessness. Please forgive me, Doc.
As for abusing DR's point, I inferred that he meant because we don't have a ruler in our Republic, we don't have to pray for O'Bama, as Ryan was stating. What did you think DR was trying to say?
David C| 6.21.11 @ 8:01AM
Nick,
I took DR simply to be objecting to the use of the word "ruler" in connection to American government.
Nick| 6.21.11 @ 4:07PM
David C.,
Okay, I will, also, agree to grant DR the benefit of the doubt. My apologies, again, Doc.
Occam's Tool| 6.19.11 @ 3:05AM
Dr Right:
You are correct, he's not our ruler. But we should pray to G-d that the men we entrust power to are decent men who love America. The fact that our current one is a failure on both counts doesn't mean we should stop praying. We should be praying more.
Margie| 6.19.11 @ 6:19PM
I come to read your excellent posts, O.T, and I will always miss you, too!
As to praying on behalf of all men, as it is written, above~ sure. I pray that God's will be done. And if Obama doesn't want to repent, I pray that His will is to to please put it in the hearts of men to vote for the Republican nominee.
That's the best we can hope for, till the King of Kings returns, at that point~ He will rule and there won't be any more unrighteous, wicked, evil men to worry about.
Margie| 6.17.11 @ 3:18PM
Heh, Ryan:
I thought you preached that quoting Scripture is "dangerous."
Or is that only when people you don't happen to appreciate do it?
Occam's Tool| 6.19.11 @ 3:05AM
It's the Margie!!!!! I was missing you!
Ryan| 6.20.11 @ 10:01AM
It is dangerous. We need to be careful in its use.
I was also using it in context.
Edward| 6.17.11 @ 8:09AM
This well-stated article reminds me of a book I recently read: "How to Win The Culture War" by Peter Kreeft. I recommend it. What we need is simply ... good people.
Mimi| 6.17.11 @ 8:36AM
A remarkable piece Quin....It is times like these that the Pendulum swings. I see wisdom in the many PATRIOTS the people sent to Washington in 2010. The awakeness and awareness of the way things are going is the WISDOM growing now.
I have lived a long time... and I never literally fell to my knees and "PRAYED" for my country , so in fear , The days we are living. We live in critical times in our History !
You mentioned the degrading of our culture and poo, poo, to the old mores...Look at WIENER....Yea, we had a lot of fun..for a few weeks put in the end...We as a people made the right call in our condemnation...I do think that we as a NATION, have Divine protection and guidance...and HOPE IS ETERNAL!
Mimi| 6.17.11 @ 8:37AM
"BUT,...in the end"
Nancy in NC| 6.17.11 @ 8:36AM
You're saying exactly what Glenn Beck has been saying for a couple of years. The state of our nation reflects the state of the citizens.
And pray we must. But prayer without deeds is futile. We must stand up for good. And this is really a war between good and evil. It takes courage to do the right thing. I hope we find some Americans with courage that are willing to join in the prayer AND fight.
And Quin, I love your articles. I am always happy to see you here.
Nancy in NC| 6.17.11 @ 8:44AM
And I checked out twelve23.org and am happy to join. I urge other to do the same.
C Smith| 6.17.11 @ 10:41AM
Ever have those times when you don't know how to pray? How to pray according to the will of God? Actually, we never really know how to pray:
"Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God" (Romans 8:26-27).
http://to-my-children.blogspot.....-pray.html
Southern_Comment| 6.17.11 @ 11:14AM
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
(Matthew 6:7-13)
Oldefarte| 6.17.11 @ 11:19AM
GREAT ONE! Unfortionately [possibly] the Almighty created us all with the concept of FREE WILL, and therin lies the problem of which you so eloquently speak. This free will results in the lack of morality issues, the ACTING STUPIDLY [ie viewing reality TV, etc], and yes, even in grown men tweeting sexual images of themselves to teenage children. Not only should we pray for wisdom, but possibly a lack of stupidity among voters [but as Coulter insinuates, where then would all of the DEMOCRATS then end up from their conversion to wisdom and intelligence]:
http://youtu.be/3Fk5uAWBZ9I
Ryan| 6.17.11 @ 12:30PM
I would argue the opposite from scripture. "There is none righteous" and all - where our natural propensity is to sin, even when we believe we are doing good.
Oldefarte| 6.18.11 @ 1:17PM
No, [again] the FREE WILL with which we were all created allows each of us to CHOOSE, but bear in mind that same choices have consequences [and those consequences will be revealed to each of us at death]. We all make mistakes [sin] in life, and some of us repent while others do not [which is their choice also]. At each one of our judgment days, our choices [and repentences] will be revealed to us along with our salvation or damnation accordingly. There is no BELIEVING WE ARE DOING GOOD in our sinful choices, as our conscience-knowledge [which is the voice of the Altmighty wispering in our ear] determines for us the right or wrong of our actions/deeds!!!!!!
Ryan| 6.20.11 @ 10:03AM
Where in scripture does it state that I am capable outside of Christ to do good that is pleasing to God?
Oldefarte| 6.22.11 @ 12:56PM
'Outside of Christ'? Guess Jews etc will all go to hades, huh?????????
Pope Testiculus II| 6.17.11 @ 11:53AM
Just don't pray to Mary...
Citizen Jerry| 6.17.11 @ 11:56AM
No one should suggest that God take sides in politics. But I'd reasonably surmise that God might ask both sides of the political spectrum -- who's on His side.
JohnC| 6.17.11 @ 12:18PM
This was a very good article. I might add that we need to pray for ourselves first to ask the Lord to change us from our in-born carnal nature and behavior. Thus we must examine our conscience frequently and ask God to help us resist sinful areas of our life. Gradually, the Spirit will replace our natural affection for vice to a love of virtue and only then will we obtain wisdom -- the ability to discern good from evil.
This process of sanctification is a life-long process and key to being born again which is necessary for true salvation. Only a #living# Faith saves -- a Faith that true believers practice in their daily lives. Unfortunately, this early church doctrine of the Apostolic Fathers is rarely taught in Christian churches today, thus many are seduced by our decadent and self-centered culture and blind to the immense evil in the world.
Ryan| 6.17.11 @ 12:32PM
It's also followed closely through the Reformers as well.
When you say "many Christian churches," I think that may be too broad a terminology. Sanctification is taught in many conservative churches.
Margie| 6.17.11 @ 3:17PM
"Only a #living# Faith saves."
Wrong.
Faith does not save.
"For by Grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God--" Eph. 2:8.
Your teaching is a Religious one, and not a biblical one.
JohnC| 6.17.11 @ 1:15PM
I have been to a number of Evangelical churches and all of them taught Faith-Alone saves even though the Apostle James clearly says otherwise. These church leaders also did not stress sanctification as the key to salvation nor how the Spirit works in conjunction with a believer’s free will to achieve this. In fact they stressed that (personal) sin died on the cross and there is virtually nothing we can do to become sanctified, almost as if we no longer have a free will to choose good over evil.
This Faith-Alone doctrine implies that a believer could live a decadent life and still be saved, although I might add that many good evangelicals nevertheless strive for sanctification anyway because the Lord teaches an open heart. Maybe though I haven’t been to the right churches and should have used the word some instead of many.
Also in Paul’s famous #you are not saved by works# verse it is obvious that he meant the many Jewish rituals and in many parts of his Epistles he speaks of the need for striving for righteous living to be saved and chastises believers who remain worldly.
Ken (Old Texican)| 6.17.11 @ 1:26PM
John C,
NO! not faith alone............. GRACE ALONE!
\
God knows our hearts. HE will decide our eternity.
I have no other hope.
"Let him in to heaven,Father. The dumbbunny is one of mine."
Ryan| 6.17.11 @ 1:28PM
That's an oversimplification of Salvation by Faith alone, both on what you probably heard from the pulpit AND what is in the book of James.
Pretty much all Christians who believe that salvation is by faith hold that such faith creates an inward change that brings about the desire to do good works for God's glory - which is more or less what the core of the book of James preaches.
The problem with the "works" argument there is that Paul was addressing Christians in general, and if you look at the verse itself - "By grace are you saved, through faith, it is the gift of God, not by works, lest any man should boast." - EVEN IF you drop the "not by works" part, the idea that we cannot earn favor with God outside of His Grace really isn't there.
The point is that God's wrath doesn't require works to appease it. It requires death. We can't make up that necessary death by being and doing good, we can ONLY make it up through dying (For the wages of sin is death...). That's why Jesus had to die - otherwise we could work our way into heaven and don't need His death.
And the "a believer could live a decadent life and still be saved" is a strawman argument. I have NEVER heard that come from a Christian's mouth. Anyone who claims that is true goes against what Paul said "May we go on sinning so that grace may increase? God forbid!"
jolizoom| 6.17.11 @ 9:49PM
We are saved by God's grace, through our faith in Christ. Works are evidence of our salvation, but works do not save us. On the other hand, "faith without works is dead". Those who claim salvation for themselves but continue to live a debauched life, give the lie to their claim.
Margie| 6.19.11 @ 6:21PM
Well said.
Oldefarte| 6.18.11 @ 1:35PM
Paul [formerly Saul] was knocked from his horse by the God declaring SAUL SAUL, WHY HAS THY FORSAKEN ME? Also, Christ [hanging on his cross at Calvary] turned to the good [repenting]thief hanging besides Him and declared ON THIS DAY YOU SHALT BE WITH ME IN HEAVEN!!!!!!!
Ryan| 6.20.11 @ 10:04AM
So...what's your point?
Oldefarte| 6.22.11 @ 1:00PM
My point [which should be obvious, but apparently is not] is that [1] your referenced Paul should not be exampled because of his pre-Paul. as Saul, ways and [2] as I said earliar, if one chooses to honestly repent, their salvation is assured!!!!
Kingofthenet| 6.17.11 @ 1:16PM
NOTHING fails like PRAYER! When you take 'chance' out of the equation, prayer fails 100% of the time, don't believe me?
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/important.htm
Ken (Old Texican)| 6.17.11 @ 1:28PM
King of...
BOTH ends of a turd are just as nasty.
...pray for grace.
Occam's Tool| 6.19.11 @ 3:09AM
King---you are a bit of a...., well, you are what you are. Please let me know of a secular humanist society that breeds to replacement.
The biggest problem with your philosophy is thatyou are wrong. The second biggest is that it is antisurvival.
JohnC| 6.17.11 @ 1:57PM
Yes I agree, we are saved by grace (a gift) but only if we use it, for grace is the power of Holy Spirit (the Teacher) convicting us of sin but then we must act on that or not. If we overcome temptation with the Spirit’s help we are being sanctified and even if we fail but are trying the Lord honors that. But if we just ignore the Spirit and live the same wordly life we cannot be born again or saved and much Scrpture supports this, including the Epistles of Paul.
My point is that we still have a free will to either live by the world’s standard or God’s (10 commandments and their deeper meaning) after we are believers. There is no automatic free ticket to salvation -- we are saved by a #living# Faith that works in conjunction with the Spirit to make us spiritually born again. It takes two to tango applies here and that is the point James was making.
Maybe we agree if #Living# Faith is substituted for Faith (belief).
Margie| 6.17.11 @ 3:28PM
John,
It sounds like this is what you are looking for:
"Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me." Jn. 15:4
And this:
"If you abide in Me, and my words abide in you, ask whatever you will, and it shall be done for you." Jn. 15:7.
Al Adab| 6.17.11 @ 2:37PM
Many of us pray daily for our President, Congress and other elected officials... That they may have wisdom, follow G*ds leading and preserve our Republic. What we sadly have is an idolotrous nation where the secular religion of the godess Choice along with Gaia, Tolerance, Diversity and a few others has become the State sponsored religion. It is a dangerous game we play in following that path.
Pelligrino| 6.17.11 @ 2:43PM
Mr. Hillyer, thank you for this article.
Talking to God, and, most importantly, awaiting and listening to God's response(s) is always time well spent.
At a camp I attended as a boy, engraved on the walls of the cabins was a saying: "Seven days without prayer makes one weak."
Like Nancy in NC (above), I looked at the www.Twelve23.org page. I will have to learn more about the Univ. of Mobile. But the intro video & audio is good.
Let me also encourage readers here to visit and listen so as to understand why this name "Twelve23" was chosen and to learn about Private Martin of the 82d Airborne in the Ardennes. Now, "That's my kind of soldier!"
A friend of mine who hails from Mississippi often quotes his mother who would say, "When they took prayer and the Ten Commandments out of the schools, the guns, knives, ill manners, poor behavior, and disruptions came in."
She's right.
God has blessed America like no other nation ever. Individually and collectively we owe our Heavenly Father our devotion and service.
Rinophobe| 6.17.11 @ 3:01PM
Commendable article Quin! I also might include an admonition to repentance accompany suggested prayers: II Chronicles 7:14; "If My people, who are called by My Name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and heal their land". Clearly, prayer is essential, but repentance must accompany our lifted voices. Want to please God? Why don't we see if we can put prayer and Bible reading back in public school like it was all those years prior to 1963? A constitutional amendment is all it would take, and if Americans are sincere in our repentance, then our heavenly Father just might attach His seal of approval and act upon our request. We've left Him out of the public discourse for so long that I for one would be utterly surprised if just a mere invitation to act on our behalf could sway Him. While indeed "He is good and His mercy endures forever", recall what Thomas Jefferson stated about the justice that God imparts: "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have the removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that their liberties are the gift of God?". There is no better way to get that conviction into the minds of men than to teach the Word, just as our Founders intended, in the public school system. What do you think our chances are now?
jolizoom| 6.17.11 @ 10:06PM
An important note on 2 Chron 7:14 is that it called God's people, not all people, to repentance. In other words, we Christians bear much of the responsibility for where our nation is headed because we have accepted the compromises of the left instead of standing our ground in obedience to Christ.
Margie| 6.17.11 @ 3:36PM
Nice article, Quin.
King David prayed thusly, and so ought we:
"Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward being; therefore teach me wisdom in my secret heart." Ps. 51:6.
Notice that he desired truth in his inward self, like it's a prerequisite, then he was enabled to ask for His Wisdom.
Our desire and our need.. and not all desire truth or Wisdom though, and that's how we got into this mess to begin with, yet His will will always be done!
Nick| 6.19.11 @ 6:23PM
Margie,
How come you and Victor stopped responding to my queries? Have I offended either of you? I hope not. I did not mean to, if I did.
I have enjoyed these discussions, because I always learn something new.
God Bless!
Margie| 6.19.11 @ 7:03PM
Nick,
I've been posting elsewhere these days. After awhile, I lose track of where we were here. We could start again.. but as you mentioned, we cannot change each other's minds. I would keep coming back with Scriptures to refute you, and you do the same with me. Like I used to be with my dear French Grandma who was Catholic~ I just didn't discuss it. I knew that she loved Jesus, and we used to discuss Him. I don't discuss it with my Dad, only to tell him that the things that Catholicism says he has to do~ well, He doesn't have to do them. He only needs to trust in God for the forgiveness of his sins.. and at 80 yrs. old, he is appreciating that fact very much.
Nick, I don't know why, but you have always refrained from personally attacking me. We had one time when I first started posting here where we went back and forth, and then no more vitriol. It's been over 2 years now I think.
I appreciate it. But I also still think you're wrong. :^). And I don't like how you call Dr. Right a bigot all the time. He's in agreement with the Bible, as am I. He's a brother in Christ. If you're a brother in Christ, why would you call another brother a bigot?
That's a rhetorical question only.
Anyhow, where shall we continue discussing the Scriptures? I am still learning as well. Posting here has caused me to look into the history of Christianity and especially the early church fathers~ a lot of whom I can see were unbiblical and am learning how false doctrines began very, very early on.
~Margie
Ryan| 6.20.11 @ 11:00AM
Here's a few questions about the early church fathers, and maybe a more broader aspect...
What beliefs are so full of error that no Christian can hold to them?
Margie| 6.20.11 @ 12:42PM
Answer: The ones that are unbiblical.
Ryan| 6.20.11 @ 12:51PM
So...you hold that the Trinity is unbiblical.
Are you saying that pretty much every person who claimed to be a Christian since Christ is NOT saved?
Margie| 6.20.11 @ 9:28PM
I hold to this and only this:
"Every Word of God is refined, He is a
shield to those seeking refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words, that He not
reprove you, and you be proven to be a liar." Prov. 30:5 & 6.
Furthermore, you aren't really interested in what I hold to, but you are interested only in finding fault.
And I am not interested.
Ryan| 6.21.11 @ 8:29AM
This is a yes-or-no answer, Margie, honestly.
I am trying to see if you are willing to declare that a VAST majority of people who consider themselves Christians - and believe the Bible as inerrant - are condemned to hell because they believe in the idea that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all One God; and that even though the word "Trinity" is never used, that it is an expression of a completely Biblical concept.
There are plenty of times where we have common ground...and I even wonder if you agree with the concept of the Trinity, and just refuse to attach the word to the idea because you find it to "add to His words."
Margie| 6.22.11 @ 12:41AM
Ryan,
I've explained in depth about this issue before. If you want to take it further, you may e mail me at wehavetoomuchstuff@gmail,com.
That goes for anyone.
God bless.
Nick| 6.20.11 @ 12:46PM
Margie,
Please don't take my battles with Doctor Right personally. Just as I don't take your eviscerations of Clint personally.
My quarrels with DR go way back. I know I shouldn't attack him as strongly as I do, but, sometimes I type (and hit "submit") before I think. I'm trying to get better about this.
In fact, this morning, I complimented DR, in another thread. So, I will try to be more charitable to my fellow brothers in Christ. Feel free to admonish me when I'm not.
I enjoy it when you and Victor challenge me on my faith and the Scriptures, because I always learn something, which I love. Either something new about my own faith, of which I was previously unaware, or, about how fellow Christians, like yourself, see things. I believe it brings me closer to God.
If you have the time, and feel like it, I had some unanswered questions in a couple of threads. One was about Isaiah 22 in this thread:
http://spectator.org/blog/2011.....ent_554689
I had some questions for Victor, in our discussion about meatless Fridays and Acts 10, towards the top of this thread:
http://spectator.org/archives/.....ent_558255
(Tell Victor to ignore the reductio ad absurdum argument, I was being snarky.)
If you and Victor have had enough of these discussions, just let me know, and I'll look forward to our next instance of divergence. I'm just relieved that I haven't offended either of you.
Yours in Christ, Nick.
God Bless!
Margie| 6.20.11 @ 10:21PM
Nick,
You're being so humble here, you're embarrassing me. :^). No really, that's excellent! I won't stick my nose in your bz. with Dr. Right anymore, I just wanted to ask you that question. You with hold any excoriating of me but others you don't and I sometimes think you are just humoring me, heh.
Well even if you are or were (I don't really think you are), it doesn't matter because I love getting into the Bible, and defending the faith of Jesus Christ.
You see, this is how we differ, my faith is in Him, but I think yours may be in the teachings of the Catholic church. Huge difference. What you have been doing for so long is defending these early church father teachings, inserting them right into the Bible when they aren't there~ you are very well trained.
I'm very well trained in nothing but the Bible, so you bring what you've learned and I bring what I have learned.
I think you want to know the Truth, or else you maybe think you'll be able to lead me to yours.. but you will not! Anyhow~ let's continue. Vic read your post too. No "offense" taken, we're no lightweights.
I posted a comment to one of yours to Despeville having to do with 2 Thess. 2:15.
See ya there, but not till tomorrow.
In Christ Jesus,
Margie
Nick| 6.21.11 @ 12:37PM
Margie,
No, no, please don't refrain from rebuking me, I was serious. As a professed Christian, I shouldn't be using the Word of God as cudgel with which to beat other self-professed Christians over the head. I should save my rapier-like sarcasm for the enemies of God, liberals.
You flatter me by calling me "very well trained." I'm not, really. I only started learning what the Catholic Church really teaches a little over a decade ago. I have a lot of catching up to do.
The arguments I use are mostly not my own. They are the arguments of many of the Church Fathers and Doctors. So, I'm basically a plagiarist! Thanks to the internet.
I'm really not trying to convert you. I can't convert anybody, no matter what arguments I make. I believe conversion comes from the Holy Spirit, and, is a gift, like faith itself, from God.
As Christians, we can only pray that we surrender our will to that of God's will. I can only be God's instrument in His great plan for mankind. I can do nothing without Him. I think you believe the same.
I'll go check out your comment. And, again, thank you for compliments and response.
God Bless!
Rob| 6.17.11 @ 4:17PM
As I write these words, I join with you in prayer, requesting divine mercy for this nation and wisdom for her leaders.
Here is some background re the term Twelve23:
"Why Twelve23?
"The following explains the meaning of the numbers and how they represent two significant events which call us toward action:"
"On December 23, 1944, during World War II, an entire American armored division was retreating from the German army in the Ardennes forest when a sergeant in a U.S. tank destroyer spotted an American soldier digging a foxhole. The soldier, a private named Martin of the 325th Glider Infantry Regiment, looked up and asked, "Are you men looking for a safe place?" "Yes," answered the sergeant. "Well buddy," private Martin drawled, "just pull your vehicle behind me. I'm the 82nd Airborne, and this is as far as the (enemy) is going." The Twelve23 Movement finds inspiration from this private and the date serves as a rally cry for individuals in our nation to draw the line, get entrenched, refuse to retreat, and to be leaders who will influence our nation toward greatness. "
"In John 12:23, Jesus said, "The time has come for the Son of Man to be glorified." For too long, Christians across our land have been too silent about Jesus Christ. The time has come for us to glorify the Lord by putting Him first in everything that we do as individuals and as a nation. "
Butch | 6.17.11 @ 5:04PM
Thanks for the explanation, Rob. I was going to ask Quin the meaning of twelve23, but I wanted to see if someone else would explain it.
JohnC| 6.17.11 @ 5:05PM
Unfortunately, most Americans get their values from the TV. If you watch the movies of the 1940s and compare them to the present atheistic, hedonistic, soft-pornography, and depressing movies shown on cable TV you can see how far our country has fallen, thus most are in darkness not wisdom.
We need more articles like this, but even more important we need an outcry from the churches about this twisted morality and to warn the faithful that watching most TV shows is death to our souls. For if the churches are silent evil rushes in to fill this moral vacuum.
Pelligrino| 6.18.11 @ 12:43AM
JohnC, please take a moment to view a comment about what took place in Fredricksburg, Virginia yesterday. I think you might like the theme of that message. Now, lets see if pastors were listening and how they might respond.
Also, please know that there are many already praying, working together, sharing, and diligently seeking God's direction in how to aid our nation.
Maybe you are aware of this, maybe not. But these are the kind of people who are of strong faith and who care deeply about the state of the nation. http://www.manhattandeclaratio...../read.aspx The Manhattan Declaration
Kingofthenet| 6.17.11 @ 9:26PM
Wow, alot of 'Motivated Reasoning' going on here, don't know what that is? Read & Learn....
http://motherjones.com/politic.....ris-mooney
jolizoom| 6.17.11 @ 10:16PM
From your link: "In other words, people rejected the validity of a religious source because its conclusion contradicted their deeply held views." Hmmm... they wouldn't be talking about you, would they?
"Head-on attempts to persuade can sometimes trigger a backfire effect, where people not only fail to change their minds when confronted with the facts—they may hold their wrong views more tenaciously than ever."
Which is why I don't waste time arguing with hardheads like you. It cuts both ways.
POST American| 6.17.11 @ 11:18PM
----NO discussion of the current POST mortem
state of POST American 'Christianity' can even
pretend to begin without calling out the systematic, many decades old, subversion and infiltration campaigns of the ever sinister
(EUGENICS/Globalism)
utterly TAX FREE Rockefeller/Ford/Carnegie Foundations.
JUST a few hours of quality background research
into the legacy, particularly of the Rockefeller
syndicate -----will convince even the devil himself.
Let's call out these monsters once and for all-------
Kingofthenet| 6.17.11 @ 11:31PM
Ok than the 'Illuminati' is the 'Shadow Puppeteer' pulling the strings, should I invest in ALCOA ?
Pelligrino| 6.18.11 @ 12:32AM
Virginia Attorney General Ken Cucinelli spoke to a group of pastors in Fredricksburg, Virginia yesterday.
The theme of his talk: Pastors, you need to be much more involved in the civic issues of our time. Where are you in the discussions that impact our schools, our understanding of marriage (God ordains marriage), the sanctity of the family. He chastised them to look at where the abortion clinics are located on the maps. He asked something like, isn't that near your parish? How can that be? He must have talked about Father's Day and how sad it is that many children don't have real, active, everyday, loving, upright fathers -- their real fathers -- in their lives.
To me, it is obvious: Rip apart the family the way liberals and secularists wish and your community, county, state and the nation are destroyed.
So, yes indeed, our clergy need to be actively informing on where the Bible clearly shows how a society should live and how we are to be as people pursuing God's righteousness.
So I ask also: Why are our clergy so timid? So often so silent? Absent?
We need an even more strong pledge than what the Twelve23 states. It is good; but we need to gear up.
How refreshing to hear a high state official talking on these topics. I wish I had Attorney General Cucinelli's full speech available to provide a link. Perhaps someone else can locate it.
Kingofthenet| 6.18.11 @ 4:46PM
There is a reason why Christians who want to 'reproduce' Noah's Ark ALL do it on land, how much MORE impressive would it be to see on the open oceans.For the FULL experience just 'sail in it for 'Forty Days', tow it out to the center of the Atlantic or Pacific, during winter(nowhere NEAR as bad as the flood but what can you do) and have it survive. Now remember, No Steering, no Bilge Pumps, one window for ventilation, no Fan.You 'could' stock it with Animals, but I am against 'Cruelty' so maybe not.It would be so Majestic,not that you would ever get me on that Death Trap.
Occam's Tool| 6.19.11 @ 3:13AM
King...
I exist. That is proof enough for me. Random chance leads to less complexity, not more.
David C| 6.19.11 @ 11:58PM
Somehow the point of both Kingofthenet's comment and Occam's reply escapes me.
Tina B| 6.18.11 @ 9:11PM
King-o-t-n
You never disappoint. How about if. . . a God who could create our universe- and those of us who know Him believe He did this in 6 days, Christ quoted this, good enough for me- have no problem believing He could give Noah the correct instructions as to materials and dimensions.
He created the laws of space and time, He invented maths, and He can direct the building of an adequate boat to house a remnant of His creation for 40 days of "rain" as well as the possible opening of subterranean water chambers, followed by a few months of waiting as these waters subsided to leave new land forms for repopulation.
If He can create a universe such as ours, and Christ followers like me believe He did, then a boat for hundreds of young animals and Noah's family should not be a problem.
You don't believe this, so why nitpick about God's abilities over time and in space. It is no problem for me.
Kingofthenet| 6.19.11 @ 12:16PM
Well Tina sure God 'could' have done all that, but what's the point?, if somehow you are suggesting God 'protected' the boat, then I guess it could have been made out of tissue paper and survived.Then of course it begs the question, why go thru with this farce anyway just tell Noah to go to an island and God could put a 'bubble' over the whole thing, and they could have lived more calmly under the water.We do know the specs of this boat , and rough construction from the 'good' book.The very fact that MODERN boat-builders couldn't make a boat with those specs and keep it afloat, SHOULD set off alarm bells, but when your God slaughters tons of innocent Men,Women and Children and you don't bat an eye, why am I not surprised?
Margie| 6.19.11 @ 7:12PM
KOTN,
Look at it this way~ you're either gonna be floating on the good ship lollipop or the Ark that saves in the end... your choice.
BackToBasics| 6.19.11 @ 4:16PM
I heard an old pastor say once that the advent of television hurt the amount of praying done by women all across America and the world. He said that before television, women, especially older women whose children had grown would often say many prayers throughout the day as most of them were at home throughout the day. The men prayed less in their outside jobs as their focus was on the job. He said that television shows refocused women's attention away from prayer. He said he believed that women's prayers were a great foundation for the church and that the focus away from women's prayers was a great loss for the church. He said this weakened the church and as a result the greater society was also weakened.
I thought he made sense. He did not make the same case for radio shows prior to television. He lived through both periods as well as pre-radio so it seems he thought television was the greater distraction.
Margie| 6.19.11 @ 7:09PM
B to B,
How true it is. T.V. is a total distraction. We've gotten rid of it, and I've been ridiculed here by he who shall remain nameless, but it has helped us a lot in our focus on the things that really matter, though the computer easily can take its place.
It's all a matter of choosing each day Whom we will serve.
BackToBasics| 6.21.11 @ 3:16PM
We've gotten rid of television too, many years ago and don't miss it either.
weddingdresses | 6.20.11 @ 2:26AM
You never disappoint. How about if. . . a God who could create our universe- and those of us who know Him believe He did this in 6 days, Christ quoted this, good enough for me- have no problem believing He could give Noah the correct instructions as to materials and dimensions.
Tina B| 6.20.11 @ 5:18AM
kotn:
Tina B| 6.20.11 @ 5:45AM
oopsie, kotn,
you believe in what?
I believe in a God who created a free people, free to choose between good and evil, just as Adam and Eve did. Once evil was chosen, and God's first instructions were ignored, there was the problem of sin in the world and its inherent consequences.
The Son of God solved this huge problem with one last and perfect sacrifice of a lamb, a human lamb, and a truly perfect one at that. No sin ever recorded as committed by Christ. The solution came by those who believed in this commitment promised and fulfilled by God and His Son. Once we believe in this promise for us individually, cleansing us from the full consequences of our sin, and saving us for an eternel relationship in love with the King of Creation (not just the net, like you.)
we have assurance of our eternal salvation and a relationship with this King.
If God wants to He could totally destroy His creation as quickly as He made it, but He wanted a relationship with His people. And guess what. He got it from a bunch of us.
All over the world His children are living for Him. Some are even still dying for him. All over the Communist countries people are dying because of their faith in Him. All over Africa, in Arab lands, Christians are dying for their faith and love of Jesus Christ. Even in America, many Christians are ridiculed and scoffed at because of a sincere practice of and humble faith in God and His Word, the Bible.
The ark of Noah is no problem for The Creator and models of the original have been shown to be able to ride out huge waves (models) but we obviously cannot recreate the Deluge, so that is as far as experiments can go. I take it on faith that that is how God chose to repopulate the post flood earth.
As to God slaughtering tens of millions, I'll let a being far more brilliant that I to do as He sees fit with His Creation. Especially after coming to know Him and His Son. I know that everything He's done in the lives of me and my family and all those around me has never been evil, We have all had evil done to us by the spirit(s) and human followers of Evil, I am sure, but none of it has really harmed us. I have seen God's hand of protection on us all vividly. If you can't say that, or seen that in your own life and that of your loved ones, I am sorry. I pray that you do come to see. Clearly.