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A Further Perspective
Undercounting the Joblessness
Those numbers aren’t a bump in the road — they’re a Mt. Whitney.
The U.S. job growth in May — or, more accurately, the lack of job growth — indicates that the economic “recovery” is coming undone.
With 13.9 million people in the U.S. out of work according to the federal government’s unemployment calculations (a tally that excludes those who are classified as “discouraged” workers and “involuntary part-timers,” among others), the Labor Department reported that only 54,000 jobs were added to nonfarm payrolls in May, down significantly from an average of 130,500 new jobs per month during the first four months of this year.
The number of “discouraged” workers — those who are out of work but no longer trying to get a job because they consider the prospects to be too poor — is currently 1.3 million according to the federal number crunchers, the highest number since the figures began to be tabulated in 1994.
The U.S. labor force, the total of those who are working or actively looking for work, has shrunk by 246,000 people over the past four years. Correspondingly, the labor participation rate, the percentage of the working age population that is working or seeking work, is now 64 percent, a 25-year low.
At 54,000 new jobs per month, it would take 22 years to get the unemployed 13.9 million people back to work.
Even with the economy growing at the higher rate of 130,500 new jobs per month, it would still take nine years to get the 13.9 million currently jobless workers back on the job.
And that doesn’t take into account the additional job growth that’s required to create work for the approximately 150,000 people who newly enter the U.S. labor force each month.
But it’s even worse than that.
On top of the 13.9 million unemployed, the Labor Department reported last week that the “number of persons employed part time for economic reasons (sometimes referred to as involuntary part-time workers)” was 8.5 million in May.
These 8.5 million were “working part time because their hours had been cut back or because they were unable to find a full-time job,” explained the Labor Department.
In addition, “2.2 million persons were marginally attached to the labor force” in May, reported the Labor Department. “These individuals were not in the labor force and were available for work, and had looked for a job sometime in the prior 12 months. They were not counted as ‘unemployed’ because they had not searched for work in the four weeks preceding the survey.”
Included in this group of the “marginally attached” are the aforementioned “discouraged workers,” defined as “persons not currently looking for work because they believe no jobs are available for them.”
Also uncounted as jobless in the official unemployment statistics are those who were out of work and couldn’t find a job and went back to school full-time. Hanging around graduate school until you’re 30 or 40 isn’t a job.
Additionally, not one of the 2.3 million people currently incarcerated in the U.S. shows up in the government’s unemployment reports, even though a segment of this jailed population surely ended up behind bars because the economy is millions of jobs short of providing full employment.
And then there are all those house husbands who stay home to watch the kids watch TV because what they can earn in this down economy is less than the price of day care. None of these guys show up in any official count as unemployed or underemployed.
About the Author
Ralph R. Reiland is the B. Kenneth Simon professor of free enterprise and an associate professor of economics at Robert Morris University in Pittsburgh.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (85) | Leave a comment
More Articles by Ralph R. Reiland
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Atokaite| 6.14.11 @ 7:32AM
Clear as mud. Add all the stats up, we get a total of NOT working folks that is staggering.
It is simple as ABC. Most folks that are able, willing and have the guts to ignore the Fed Agencies Welfare funds support the rest.
There is a an Underground Labor force, working, able and surviving these "bumps in the road", these folks ignore the Federal Structure. Operate mostly on cash, barter of labor, and intitiative. These are the ones that will continue to survive long after the rest are standing in dole food lines.
This Great Recession is simply the precursor to the 21 st century Greater Depression. You have not seen nothing yet.
end
Semper Fi
old white guy| 6.17.11 @ 5:06AM
jeez the number must be about 22% by now. certainly not the 9.7% the government and msm are talking about.
Michael Tomlinson| 6.14.11 @ 7:33AM
You vote Democrat and this is what you get. Unless you're fortunate enough, like Bill Clinton, to get a Republican Congress that saves your failed butt.
Wayne | 6.15.11 @ 11:02PM
Its what you get when you run a Mc Cain against him.
Louis Jenkins| 6.14.11 @ 8:23AM
Everybody complains about the weather but no one does anything about it. Everybody complains about the unemployment rate but Washington, DC, doesn't do anything about it either. The answer is simple but instead Obama goes about making promises that he won't keep (see yesterday's headlines). How much longer will the American public buy this tripe? Washington and Obama needs to make the government more financially secure, cut down the debt, cut back on taxation, and get out of the way. Then employment will stand a chance. Until then more articles on unemployment.
squalis| 6.14.11 @ 9:25AM
"Obama needs to make the government more financially secure, cut down the debt, cut back on taxation, and get out of the way."
When that happens, pigs will fly!
Stan Redmond| 6.14.11 @ 10:27AM
Obama and the Labor department are doing something about the unemployment rate. They just shuffle the numbers around a bit and tuh-duh. You have 9.1 instead of reality which is probably near 20%
What Obama needs to do now is what he said to business (Business have an obligation to hire (to make my numbers better)). Obama just needs to tell all those people looking for jobs to just stop looking for jobs so they won't be counted in "official" unemployment reports.
Redstateboy| 6.14.11 @ 9:01AM
Few today save the aged can recall a time such as this economically. My Parents, both in their mid-70's, were babies born in the 30's during the depression - so their memories of that time are obviously meager - they grew up in the boom 50's so it is safe to say there are very few people alive today who can recall such a time in American History as this.
Redstateboy| 6.14.11 @ 9:15AM
I was laid off in July 09' and went from around 50-60K Gross to 33-34K Gross - Now That's Gross!! and Hussein has No idea what to do. Nazi Pelosi and Spouse have a Net Worth of 55 Million dollars, John Kerry? $264, Feinstein? $46 Jay Rockefeller? $64 - does anyone think these people have a F'! clue what it's like to go to the SuperMarket or put Gas in the car, pay insurance, Car Maint., Go to the Dentist! Physical Check-ups!
Michael Tomlinson| 6.14.11 @ 9:20AM
A short list of Obama failures.
(1) When Bush left office the unemployment rate was 7.6% under Obama it has been consistently 9-10%.
(2) 13.9 million people in the U.S. are out of work according to the federal government's unemployment calculations.
(3) The number of "discouraged" workers -- those who are out of work but no longer trying to get a job because they consider the prospects to be too poor -- is currently 1.3 million (no doubt a low estimate).
(4) The U.S. labor force, the total of those who are working or actively looking for work, has shrunk by 246,000 people.
(5) The percentage of the working age population that is working or seeking work is now 64%, a 25-year low.
(6) If there 130,500 new jobs per month (Obama's high), it would still take 9 years to get the 13.9 million currently jobless workers back on the job.
(7) The "number of persons employed part time for economic reasons (sometimes referred to as involuntary part-time workers, because companies are forced to cut their hours to avoid firing them)" was 8.5 million in May.
(8) The poverty rate has increased 8.3% under Obama.
(9) Real median household income under President Bush was $50,112 under the failed policies of Obama it is now $49,777 or a -0.7% decrease.
(10) Under Obama the house marketing is now worse than during FDR's Great Depression. The fall in house prices is now greater than that suffered during FDR’s Great Depression (31% in FDR’s Great Depression -vs. - 33% during Obama’s Depression).
(11) The national debt when President Bush left office in trillions of dollars was $10.627 under Obama it is now $14.052 or a 32.2%. In the last two years we have accumulated national debt at a rate more than 27 times as fast as during the rest of our entire nation's history – over 27 times as fast.
(12) He paid the 6 Democrats ruining Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac $34.4 million in bonuses.
(13) Obama and the Democrat Congress gave tens of millions of dollars in stimulus money to Democrat tax cheats who owe millions of dollars in back taxes.
(14) In Egypt his policies are empowering Muslim fundamentalists (Carter II's Iran), in Libya he is supporting al Qaeda militants and in Afghanistan he is ready to make a deal with the Taliban and "share power" with them.
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 10:52AM
So what you have done/do? If you cut the taxes of the rich even more guess what - the deficit increases. But that's your only policy.
USSAlabama| 6.14.11 @ 11:05AM
Jack, it would seem that the super rich are willing to volunteer their fortunes to taxes - according to quite a few of them.
Raise theirs. However, a person making 200k/250k is just not in that group and that is where this admin wants to start it.
txn4ever| 6.14.11 @ 1:16PM
Every President/Congress that reduced taxes and over burdensome regulations increased tax revenue.
When you increase taxes on the wealthy they move their money from investments which create wealth and are subject to taxation to tax shelters which preserve wealth and are usually untaxable or they are taxed at a very low rate. Most of the wealthy didn't get that way by being stupid.
I don't know if you noticed lately but states that are raising taxes have created an exodus of the wealthy and are achieving the exact opposite what they expected to achieve. Namely, revenues are decreasing rather than increasing because of higer taxes.
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 1:29PM
Ok let's look at our 'huge taxes', thanks to the Center for American Progress (CAP):
Tax revenue will this year make up 14.8% of total national economic activity. That's the lowest level in 60 years.
Total taxes paid to the US government between 2004-08 were 26.9%. That's number 25 in a list of 30 OECD countries.
The highest income tax rate is 35%. That's the lowest top rate on income in 50 years.
The top rate on income from capital gains is 15%. That's the lowest rate since 1933.
Less than 0.2% of all estates are expected to have paid any estate tax at all. Last year no estate tax at all was paid in the US. That's 0%.
The richest 400 households in the US, who take home an average of $300m a year paid 16.6% of their total income in federal taxes. That's down almost 10% on the 1992 figure.
Since 2009, corporate tax revenue has averaged 1.2%. That's the lowest three-year average in American post-war history.
The US generates just 2.1% of revenue from corporate taxes. That's 25% below the OECD average.
US corporations pay an average of around 13% of their profits in income tax. That's 3% below the OECD average.
The total value of tax breaks, subsidies and loopholes introduced into the corporate and individual income tax codes in the past 25 years exceeds $1 trillion a year. That's almost double the total value in 1982.
What does this mean? "Taxes today are lower than they were under President Reagan. They're lower today than they've been in 60 years. And they're lower than they are in most developed countries."
USSAlabama| 6.14.11 @ 1:43PM
Jack, do you trust the figures from CAP? That is a Hillary Clinton founded, Soros funded propaganda producer.
old white guy| 6.17.11 @ 5:11AM
the real numbers show that the top 10% pay about 75% of all federal taxes. why not get more from the bottom end. that 49% that pay nothing.
skip| 6.14.11 @ 1:46PM
The Center for American Progress?
Please stop being an idiot.
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 2:10PM
Well, this is a compilation of official figures. If you know better than sources such as the IRS and OECD post away. Facts are facts and right-wing squeals are hogwash.
skip| 6.14.11 @ 2:46PM
In past threads you've ignored the IRS as a source for the Tax Foundation, who show the top 1% of income tax payers paid more in income tax than the bottom 95% of all income tax payers, in 2007 several years after G.W. Bush's tax cuts, as you persisted in stating stupid lies about tax policy.
The Tax Foundation is a respected, objective, nonpartisan source.
The Center for American Progress is a ridiculed, subjective, hyperpartisan fraud.
Stop being an idiot.
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 2:54PM
Look at the list I posted and tell me what's wrong. The inconvenient fact for you is that despite your endless bleating about your beloved top 1%, whose ass you lick daily, their tax take is at modern historic lows and the gap between rich and poor is a historic highs.
And I'll repeat what I posted below - the biggest deficit contributors are Bush tax cuts and Bush wars.
Pecos Pete| 6.14.11 @ 3:02PM
Oh my Jack, the biggest deficit contributors are NOT tax cuts or the current "wars" but are instead the federal government's spending on non essential goods and services ... and their implementation of regulations that have castrated businesses in the USA.
skip| 6.14.11 @ 3:32PM
* * * * * *
idiot | 6.14.11 @ 1:29PM:
"Ok lets' look at our 'huge taxes', thanks to the Center for American Progress"
* * * * * *
one of any number of individuals with a shred of intelligence and honesty | 6.14.11 @ 2:46PM:
"The Center for American Progress is a ridiculed, subjective, hyperpartisan fraud"
* * * * * *
idiot | 6.14.11 @ 2:54PM:
"Look at the list I posted and tell me what's wrong. The inconvenient fact for you is..."
* * * * * *
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 4:07PM
I think skip that people have rather got the idea that you only possess one debating point, which is to call people names. When you decide to engage in adult conversation let us know.
skip| 6.14.11 @ 7:37PM
...said the idiot who bases arguments on emotion;
ignores counterarguments based on reason and experience;
cites sources that are universally ridiculed for bias, partisan ideology, and complete lack of credibility;
does not have a rudimentary understanding of basic economic principles;
displays a disturbingly incomprehensible ignorance on tax policy;
displays a disturbingly incomprehensible ignorance of the constitution;
whose last point made, in his last post, in support of his argument, was my possession of only one debating point, that of name calling;
whose second to last point made, in his second to last post, just previous to his last post, in support of his argument, was that of my daily ass licking;
and who continues to relentlessly prove what an idiot he is with every post as the archives of AmSpec will document for a very, very, very long time.
big bob| 6.14.11 @ 2:05PM
Wow. Are we talking about the United States? Talk about playing with numbers!!! How about all the insidious games, Clinton and Obama play in the form of social engineering e.g. eliminating most tax deductions above $250K ? That does not show up in the tax tables, does it? Or how about the double taxation on corporations and the elimination of deductions there, as well. Ho hum, boring stuff, I guess...not important to the guys over there at CAP.
Oldefarte| 6.14.11 @ 2:19PM
No, moron, if you cut the super rich's taxes [who already pay the majority of total income tax payments], they invest their saved tax payments by growing their businesses [ie spend money on enlarging their plants, equipment, employee payrolls etc] or by increasing their stock/bond investments [which enable the companies receiving payments to hire additional employees, pay out dividends to stockholders etc], you dummie!!!!!!!!!!
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 2:47PM
No they don't. People invest in business when there's a market opportunity. If you were right we'd see the existing cash mountains companies are sitting on being invested right now. But we're not. We're by far the lowest tax large economy in the world already in any case.
And guess what the largest components of the current deficit are? You obviously don't know so I'll educate you - Bush tax cuts and Bush wars.
Pecos Pete| 6.14.11 @ 3:08PM
Oh my Jack, there you go again. People invest money to create wealth. Period. Market opportunities are simply a sub-set of the free enterprise system.
As for the largest components of the current deficit you might consider social security, medicare, the EPA, etc. But NOT tax cuts or the current "wars."
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 3:14PM
If I could explain it in words of one syllable to such a simpleton I would. First, go find me an entrepreneur who'll invest his money with no market. And then look back at what created the deficit - it wasn't Medicare etc.
Surely you can't be this unknowledgeable.
L T| 6.14.11 @ 5:16PM
Jack, it's not the tax cuts but the tax deductions, even the president went from the 35% bracket down to the 26% bracket thru deductions, cut them all out. Now Bushs Wars belong to Obama for 2 1/2 years and he's added another and is about to add a fourth. Remember he promised to get us out.
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 7:43PM
There were both major tax cuts and deductions in the Bush packages of 2001/3. I hold no brief for Obama on Afghanistan - he should have got us out by now. But he has got Bin Laden. But Bush committed us to huge unbudgeted war spend, and if you look at the projection of the deficit the tax cuts make up by far the largest part - with the wars much more than the downturn, TARP and recovery.
See http://jaredbernsteinblog.com/.....-diagnosis
skip| 6.14.11 @ 8:19PM
The former chief economist and economic policy advisor to Biden? That Berstein? Are you mentally retarded?
Did it ever occur to you that the cash on hand private industry is holding onto is not being invested because of the economic policies of the administration and the advice of jokes like Bernstein?
Stop being an monumental idiot of epic proportions.
Jack London| 6.15.11 @ 6:52AM
At last - an engagement with issues. What conditions would you say would help companies to invest in new jobs? I would say we need more stimulus, a mortgage debt relief program, and long-term infrastructure/education investment. We're not getting much of that from Obama. So what's your plan?
skip| 6.15.11 @ 11:02AM
Stop being an idiot.
Your list has been tried and the economy is now reaping the results.
Provide whatever qualifications and experience you have that provide credibility to any economic argument you've made.
Provide what you expect the benefits of your proposals to be, and what you expect the costs to provide the expected benefits to be, of your:
stimulus plan;
mortgage debt relief program;
infrastructure investment;
education investment;
provide an education of these issues for those of us intelligent and honest enough to deal with them.
Jack London| 6.15.11 @ 12:52PM
Sorry but I don't see your plan. Then we can compare. By the way, my plan is pretty much mainstream economics from even conservative economists.
skip| 6.15.11 @ 1:24PM
In summation:
The idiot did not provide any qualifications to establish credibility on the idiot's economic arguments.
The idiot did not provide any experience to establish credibility on the idiot's economic arguments.
The idiot did not provide a single benefit of any of the idiot's economic arguments.
The idiot did not provide a single cost of a single benefit of any of the idiot's economic arguments.
The idiot argued the idiot provided an economic plan which the idiot has formulated in its entirety as: more stimulus and a mortgage debt relief program and long-term infrastructure investment and long-term education investment.
The idiot provided in the idiot's last post the length of which was three sentences the last sentence which was:
"my plan is pretty much mainstream economics from even conservative economists"
The idiot is now provided with a bonus opportunity to attempt to redeem his idiotic economic posts establishing what a monumentally epic idiot the idiot is by citing a specific reference to one of the conservative economists the idiot has generally referred to.
Any idiot is invited to hold his breath beginning now.
Jack London| 6.15.11 @ 2:52PM
Goodness me you are a child.
For anyone else read this from Bruce Bartlett (who worked under Reagan and Bush senior):
http://capitalgainsandgames.co.....nomics-rip
During the George W. Bush years, however, I think SSE became distorted into something that is, frankly, nuts--the ideas that there is no economic problem that cannot be cured with more and bigger tax cuts, that all tax cuts are equally beneficial, and that all tax cuts raise revenue.
These incorrect ideas led to the enactment of many tax cuts that had no meaningful effect on economic performance...
I believe that relatively modest action early last year could have forestalled the current crisis or at least mitigated it substantially. I think the tax rebate was wrongheaded and a complete waste of money, and that the money would have been better spent cleaning up the housing mess. I argued this case in another New York Times article, but the Bush administration's obsession with tax cuts as the sole cure for every economic problem--even when they involved nothing more than mailing out government checks--blinded it to alternative policies that might have nipped the housing problem in the bud and prevented the banking system from imploding.
I remain incredulous that serious economists not only opposed TARP, but also argued that tax cuts were the only fiscal stimulus the government should have engaged in...
skip| 6.15.11 @ 5:40PM
You are an idiot.
I stated: "The idiot is now provided with a bonus opportunity to attempt to redeem his idiotic economic posts establishing what a monumentally epic idiot the idiot is by citing a specific reference to one of the conservative economists the idiot has generally referred to."
I challenged you, idiot, to name one, and, idiot, you did not do so. I wonder why.
Bartlett is not a conservative economist, you idiot.
If an individual professes himself to be a Christian, but subsequently alters his beliefs where he no longer believes in God, he becomes what is known as an atheist, you idiot. That individual can no longer be cited as a Christian, you idiot.
Bartlett is a keynesian, you idiot. Keynesian economics advocates government regulation and control, you idiot.
Bartlett was fired from the National Center for Policy Analysis, a nonpartisan research organization advocating free market solutions and opposing government regulation and control, you idiot.
Bartlett was discredited by the Wall Street Journal for his economic arguments, you idiot, primarily, wait for it, you idiot, his arguments on tax policy.
What is childish, you idiot, is to repeatedly post over lengthy periods of time blatantly unintelligent and blatantly dishonest statements, without ever citing any credible or legimate source to support any of the unintelligent and dishonest statements, while always ignoring rebuttals that intelligently and honestly refute your statements, you idiot.
You are an idiot.
Angel Artiste | 6.15.11 @ 2:25AM
So Jack, the biggest components of the deficit (and therefore our descent into depression) are the Bush tax cuts and the Bush wars? Tell me where O has fixed these obviously misguided policies. He's such a f'ing genius, after all...
Jack London| 6.15.11 @ 6:54AM
He hasn't fixed them but it is the GOP that's stopping sensible discussion on taxation. The money on wars is spent.
Nick| 6.15.11 @ 1:12AM
Why don't you change your handle to "Jack Moscow" instead of London, as you are clearly a Red.
And, we all know what is better than being a Red, don't we?
USSAlabama| 6.14.11 @ 9:42AM
Let us consider as well the misery index - which is a valid assessment consisting of the actual unemployment + inflation.
Now that we consider the true rate of unemployment, not the 9.1 reported - consider the true rate of inflation. Compare price changes on grocery store shelves for things like coffee and ground beef from 3 months ago, 6months, etc.
The difference is greater than the official rate of inflation.
Michael Tomlinson| 6.14.11 @ 12:54PM
According to figures from the Obama administration’s own Bureau of Economic Analysis, for the nine economic quarters that Obama has been in office (including the first quarter of 2009, during which President Bush held office for 19 of the 90 days), real annual growth in GDP has been just 1.5 percent. That’s less than half the annual GDP growth during the 1940s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, or 90s. Even more striking is that the rate of growth under Obama has been only slightly higher than during the 1930s — which, of course, was the decade of the Great Depression. In the 1930s, real annual GDP growth was 1.3 percent — just 0.2 percent less than under Obama.
USSAlabama| 6.14.11 @ 1:46PM
Hi Michael, do you think Obama is manufacturing/contributing to his own depression?
Some do. Roosevelt did well for himself sacrificing our country to his depression.
http://www.americanthinker.com.....s_own.html
hardcard| 6.14.11 @ 9:42AM
the only bump I see is between odumbo's shoulders.
is joe biden assigned to another task ???
kurt2088| 6.14.11 @ 9:58AM
I sat down with my grand mother in the mid nineties before she passed away in 1999 at the ripe old age of 100 and asked her how she coped with living through the depression. Her first answer was that we drank alot of home made wine, but then she simply said that if her grand parents didn't own a farm she may have not survived the depression! She went on to tell me their was no money so everybody traded goods and services to survive. She said that they had alot of fruit trees and grape arbors so she learned how to make wine and would trade it for whatever was needed at the farm. When her home was gone through after her death there hundreds of bottles of homemade wine found in her cellar, I guess she was prepared for another depression up until her passing!
John Navratil| 6.14.11 @ 10:05AM
"Even with the economy growing at the higher rate of 130,500 new jobs per month, it would still take nine years to get the 13.9 million currently jobless workers back on the job.
And that doesn't take into account the additional job growth that's required to create work for the approximately 150,000 people who newly enter the U.S. labor force each month."
In other words, we are heading in the wrong direction (as is evident by the recent rise in unemployment rate) and it would take 280,000 jobs per month to have full employment in nine years.
SpiralArchitect| 6.14.11 @ 11:41AM
Obummer has not simply forgot he needs to create jobs and incite a recovery. He is doing exactly as his plan was before entering office. The demise of America - anyone that is not willing to accept the obvious is either unwilling to admit the obvious or do dim to realize the origin of the current state of the nation.
Mimi| 6.14.11 @ 10:23AM
One thing I ask....Why ...O...WHY, Arn't the DEMOCRATS walking around with theirheads bowed in SHAME. They will never survive the destruction they have brought on this country....All of it so un-necessary! If and I say IF....Obama runs he won't get 26% of the VOTE.
The GOP from what I saw in the debate last night is taking it to him....ALL of them! I was smiling for the 2 hours....And I don't think this 7 is the end of candidates to come...more will enter and they SHOW no MERCY!
Dan Hirsch| 6.14.11 @ 10:44AM
Mimi, dear,
Look at Congressman Weiner and how they are treating him. You don't really expect those shameless, soulless Democrats to experience shame for causing their constituents grief? The only shame they know is losing an election.
Look at Wisconsin, where pro-union thug protestors disrupted a Special Olympics award ceremony by dressing up as zombies and standing in front of the Special Olympians to obstruct their view of the governor who was congratulating the Olympians on their participation in the special Olympics. What were the Zombie-thug-Democrats protesting? The "evil" conservative governor is asking public employees to pay 5% of their pension plan costs and 12% of their health care plan costs. The bloody bastard fascist pig!
These people actually pick on the weakest in our society just to maintain their own wealth - they are disgusting and they never cease to amaze with the depths to which they will go for their own greed.
And don't think for a minute that these union thugs are doing it for their brother and sister employees - the Milwaukee teachers union leadership just agreed to laying off 200 teachers rather than paying a little more for their own benefits. This has been repeated all over Wisconsin and I understand all over the nation. Young teachers in the union, beware! They are NOT here to help YOU!
Mimi| 6.14.11 @ 11:30AM
Dan.....The fact that the DEBATE was on CNN, chances theword got out to the people were GOOD! We don't get to show our stuff to MSM that often....Their "CRAP" has to be outed and I say again our guys were GOOD !!!
Maddox| 6.14.11 @ 10:44AM
Those who were self employed are also left out of the count.
We closed our construction company in December 2010 after two years with only two small contracts. We also used subcontractors who were self-employed. Many in the construction industry are self employed and are not eligible for unemployment so are never included in the government's dishonest count. With home values dropping, how many millions across America does that add to the unemployed role? Couple this with the fact that many of the labor jobs in construction have gone to illegals who pay no tax, don't buy licenses or insurance, and are ignored by ICE and FEMA and you have millions of angry voters for the next election.
Maddox| 6.14.11 @ 10:45AM
I mistakenly wrote FEMA when I meant OSHA.
Dan Hirsch| 6.14.11 @ 10:48AM
Twelve years ago my father closed the subcontracting business his grandfather had started in the 1890's because my Dad paid his union employees for all the hours they worked. His competitors hired illegal aliens who didn't mind working twelve hours and being paid for eight, with the concurrence of the union local...
John Navratil| 6.14.11 @ 11:10AM
Dan Hirsch,
Quite some years ago in Austin, Tx, some contractors were hiring illegals and not paying them, or not paying overtime or time worked. The A.G. went after those contractors with both feet.
Dan Hirsch| 6.15.11 @ 1:49AM
That's the difference between Chicago and Texas.
John Navratil| 6.14.11 @ 10:56AM
Maddox,
Over half of the employees in the U.S. (legal) pay no federal income tax, only the payroll tax. Any illegal working with false documents will pay the same. The "off the books" economy is populated by all manner of worker from illegal alien, to tax cheat, to college students painting a house.
Unless an illegal is living under a bridge (the province, by my eyes, of Americans), he pays property taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes and everything you or I pay when either of us spend any money. Even if he sends that money to Mexico, it still gets back here to purchase goods.
The only reason anyone hires an illegal is if the benefits outweigh the costs. Reducing the government burdens on American industry and workers would go a long way to solving the problem you see.
Maddox| 6.14.11 @ 11:09AM
I agree, OSHA has gotten so aggressive in the last few years with fines of thousands of dollars over petty things it is almost impossible to comply. License requirements and fees have tripled to raise money for government graft. New rules for the"green" farce have become too tedious. It is obvious those in power want to ruin our economy.
One encouraging sign is the new law, passed and signed here in Alabama, that gets tough on those who hire and rent to illegals. It is late in the game but maybe it will be first of many steps that will turn things around.
John Navratil| 6.14.11 @ 11:18AM
Maddox,
That's one way to solve the problem, but it is a protectionist one. As a programmer who has had to compete with Indian programmers, it occurs to me that the only job which cannot be effectively outsourced is manual labour. If our labour force is being priced out of the market by taxes, insurance, regulations, union dues, etc., one might consider solving that problem.
Somehow, those illegals manage to get here and live and work in our economy. But notice that since our economy has tanked the number of illegals crossing for work has all but stopped.
Pete| 6.14.11 @ 10:50AM
The question is now, what percentage of the discouraged unemployed will get addicted to government crack and vote with their newly subsidized wallets. This is Obama's plan, of course. I hate to be a downer, but given Obama's continued economy destroying actions, one of the following two things must be true:
1) He knows he has reached the tipping point - that between dependents and voter fraud, his re-election is guaranteed.
2) He knows he is on the out, so he is doing as much damage as possible before his time is done.
I hope it is #2 but fear #1.
Melvin| 6.14.11 @ 10:58AM
We need to look at the larger picture. The current joblessness is not just a United States problem it is also a world problem.
Not only did US manufacturing flee to China, so did European manufacturing, and Asian Manufacturing.
My wife and I receive Philippine TV through the Internet. Right now there is a stink brewing over who has sovereignty over the oil rich Spratley Islands.
Of course China is claiming sovereignty. But this stink also highlighted another problem. Many Philippine citizens are taking note the lack of Philippine made products in their stores and market places and are getting quite vocal about it.
The result of this is, that China as literally vacuumed away every type of job from the industrialized countries all over the world.
Many factories in the tech industries had at one time relocated in the Philippines because of the cheap labor. Well, China comes along and tells these companies, "We'll do it cheaper, and now their are empty factory buildings all over the Philippines as is here in our Country.
Philippine factory workers were not getting paid that much to begin with, so it is rather difficult for me to fathom, how much cheaper a Chinese worker can work. It is as if, Chinese workers are a breath away from being economic slaves.
As I have traveled the world and had conversations with many citizens they're all saying one thing, "The Chinese have taken away our jobs."
Not only are the Chinese vacuuming all the worlds jobs away, they are also heavily influencing many countries representative forms of government through bribery and corruption.
Not only are the Chinese vacuuming the worlds jobs away, they are consuming raw materials faster than mountains can be taken down.
Another aspect is the Chinese have a deplorable record in pollution. This is where the bribery and corruption come in with local government officials that are paid to look the other way.
Most recent is in the Philippines is a fresh water lake whose name escapes me, were fresh water fish farms operate. Well, the Chinese came in and put four times the number of fish farms that the lake could support. They fed a type of fish food that would make the fish grow quickly. The end result of this is now the Philippines has a dead lake because of oxygen depletion, and too much fish food to cause the lakes ecological balance to go way out of kilter.
The Chinese culprits naturally harvested their fish and disappeared, and had their tracks covered by corrupt Philippine government officials.
How many of you have noticed, that Chinese Construction Companies are now bidding on Construction Projects within the United States? This is something that our government has been quietly keeping under the radar. Chinese construction companies are using US Construction companies as a front that allows them to bid on government construction projects and other capitol projects.
One Chinese company that I saw with my own eyes was aboard the Marine Base at Camp Lejeune NC who was awarded a government contract to hand out, and maintain the Marines personal war fighting gear, such as helmets, flak jackets, canteens ect.
There was a conference room that was filled with Chinese executives and managers and I asked who are they to one of the employees? He replied, "Oh, their the Chinese contractor who were awarded the contract, to hand this gear out and to maintain it."
I have painted a broad picture here, but the main point that I wanted to make is. Try as hard as the Obama administration will, you cannot create jobs that someone is already doing, for next to nothing. Chinese workers get paid on average, $.57 cents an hour, with absolutely no benefits, health care, vacation, or anything else.
Just ask Steve Jobs why Chinese workers at an Ipad factory in China were committing suicide under slave like working conditions.
John Navratil| 6.14.11 @ 11:29AM
Melvin,
You paint a bleak picture which assumes an inexhaustible supply of cheap Chinese labour. A peek at their demographics will show that, as Mark Steyn says, China will get old before it gets rich. Their one child policy along with sex selection for male offspring has given them a very top-heavy population by age. Add the burgeoning middle-class and I believe you will see an abrupt decline in growth rate of their economy.
Remember Japan, Inc.? I see the same thing happening here.
Pecos Pete| 6.14.11 @ 11:38AM
Melvin: I have read somewhere that the Chinese have bought significant square miles of Idaho and are planning to build a Chinese community on the land. Do you know anything about this rumor?
Pecos Pete| 6.14.11 @ 11:44AM
Just did a Google search and found an article at:
http://commerce.idaho.gov/news.....idaho.aspx
Interesting.
MM| 6.14.11 @ 12:13PM
The purchasing of food producing land has become a strong trend among European hedgefunds as well.
Much of Chinese land is unproductive agriculturally and what was has often become contaminated from industry or built on.
Also, do a google for "ghost cities' - you may be shocked.
Michael| 6.14.11 @ 12:48PM
True! The Idaho Statesman, December 31, 2010. Would you believe their top government officials, with a few exceptions, think it's the greatest idea ever?!?!? 50,000 acres will become a Chinese Free Trade Zone. Now imagine 50 or 100 of these across our nation. This is what it has come to.
Melvin| 6.14.11 @ 1:32PM
As I had noted above, the Chinese are masters at bribing, and corrupting government officials, especially local government officials.
The Chinese will promise and pay them the moon if need to to look the other way, at their unscrupulous business practices.
There is no Free Trade with anything the Chinese do, they're intention is to get they're foot in the door and dominate all the while depleting the areas natural resources.
Chinese and locusts have much in common. They come in en-mass, devour everything in sight, and then move on to the next area or Country.
Redstateboy| 6.14.11 @ 5:24PM
Melvin... I've often referred to Liber-uls as Locusts. They move in to an area, devour everything in site and when it's all gone and there is nothing left - they move on.
Melvin| 6.14.11 @ 12:50PM
Germany does this here as well. My brother-in-law is a farmer in Oregon, and a German concern many years ago offered him to pay for everything from seed to export of a particular sugar beet. All my brother-in-law provided was the land, equipment, and the labor to grow these sugar beets and send them to Germany. My brother-in-law liked this arrangement because it took all the volatility of growing a commodity out of the mix.
USSAlabama| 6.14.11 @ 1:50PM
It's a way for them to get your food ultimately.
At least your b.i.l. owns his land. Not so in Idaho.
Or any of the food producing land the European hedgies are buying.
Melvin| 6.14.11 @ 12:47PM
Not what you describe particularity, but I have read that the Chinese are purchasing land that supposedly has spent oil wells on it.
My take on this is that the Chinese are buying oil drilling technology at bargain basement prices because the current administration has put the kibosh on oil drilling here.
The fact is that there is allot of US companies that are being used as front companies for Chinese concerns.
This facilitates the Chinese because no one is going to say anything when they see a sign with Harold brothers oil drilling. But if we see a sign with Harold brothers oil drilling a wholly Chinese owned subsidiary of Wang industries.
This type of business practice is not new, but the Chinese are known not to play by the rules.
USSAlabama| 6.14.11 @ 1:52PM
Good point, Melvin. We need to do some research on that!
USSAlabama| 6.14.11 @ 2:01PM
Another thought along that vein: wonder if or how much the UN's Agenda 21 could have to do with any of this?
Oldefarte| 6.14.11 @ 2:26PM
How dare Ralph incinuate that the president's policies have caused decreases in employment! I have you know that the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INCREASED ITS EMPLOYMENT NUMBERS BY 100000 IN THE TWO YEARS OF THIS ADMINISTRATION [and that doesn't include the increases by state and local governments]. What in hades do you think was the purpose of the president's [NON]STIMULUS ? Also, don't you think that possibly all of those governmental workers [teachers, policemen/firemen, street cleaners, tax collectors, sewer workers etc] needed a raise [do you really think it is possible for them to live adequately on their $100000/year salaries, and in teachers' cases, when they have to work NINE MONTHS out the year for same?]. What is possibly wrong with you, Ralph???????????
Jack London| 6.14.11 @ 4:12PM
Hey old fart, that's insinuate. Tell us when your birthday is and we'll get together and buy you a dictionary.
Aces and Eights| 6.14.11 @ 7:27PM
Tell us your birthday and we'll get you a copy of "Basic Economics" by Thomas Sowell.
The One Who Runs Like a Duck| 6.14.11 @ 7:28PM
Those bumps in the road that we are running over are some of my best supporters, Jackster. First of all Jackoff, lets have an adult conversation without all the insults. The fact that you are mindless piece of crap and are probably working to destroy this country as we know it won't affect how I treat you. Sorry, whenever I ask people to act like adults I always try to surprise them with some good insults. With you I was just practicing. Keep up the good work. You are one of my smarter trolls. I am putting your IQ close to 100, definitely in the 90s. You are doing big things here and may make the difference in the 2012 election as you did in the 2010 elections. I guess the strategy is to get conservatives laughing so hard at your inanities that they forget to vote. I know they think you are very funny so keep going. Others think that what you are doing is improving their morale. I guess after 2010, they could have a point. Anyway the economy is going to be in a negative slope recovery for a while. Thank goodness we passed the stimulus and kept the unemployment at 8%. Could you imagine how bad it would be for us if we blew all that money and it went as high as 10% with all the people that are just not counted. We would be in major trouble and anybody could beat us. Keep on driving over those bumps Jacky. No more military tribunals; I am not kidding this time, baby. I must defeat Boehner on the golf course. Any dirty trick ideas? Maybe you could talk to him and put him to sleep right before we play.
Albert| 6.14.11 @ 7:25PM
There was a time when one income was enough to support a middle class family with 3 kids and a stay at home Mom. Today, and for several decades now, it requires 2 incomes to support the same family, Mom goes to work, and the family incurs day-care expenses. What is different? Taxes. High taxes force families to put Mom to work to pay for the same household. Furthermore, high taxes limit business growth which decreases job availability. And family expenses are larger in part because more families are sending kids to private schools since public schools have been found wanting. That means paying twice for school, once through taxes, once directly. It all adds up to more money for government and less for families, while Democrats use all that tax money to buy votes with welfare subsidies and make-work government jobs. With an artificially inflated labor force and limited job growth it is no wonder the effective unemployment rate is near 20%. This unemployment is caused by government and it is government that keeps it high. One could accurately say that high unemployment is Democrat Party policy, as this policy drives more and more people into government dependency, generating more and more Democrat voters. The simple truth is Democrat politicians are crooks, liars, cheats, and thieves, and the only real solution to our unemployment woes is to vote them all out of office. In this day and age of Democrat vote buying, Democrat vote fraud, and overt Democrat corruption of the election process, that is not very likely.
John Navratil| 6.14.11 @ 9:26PM
Albert,
While I cannot disagree with a word of your post, might I shade it a bit? In the '50s, a starter house was 800 square feet. By the '90s it was 1800 square feet. Then add the boat, and perhaps the camp on the river.
There is no doubt that expenses have risen and the size of government has done an evil job of transferring wealth from the producer to the entitled class - both individual and corporate - which must be reversed for freedom to flourish. However, there is an element of entitlement in the mind of every American when we want ever more "goodies". That's not a bad thing - we should strive for improving our lot. Let's complain about the government getting ever more of our product but notice that our lot in life has improved, even with that burden. It's only this downturn - exacerbated by government, of course - which makes us feel as if we are backing up. This too, shall pass. The sooner we get the Dems out, the quicker it will. If we don't, it may not pass quickly enough for us or our children.
Albert| 6.14.11 @ 11:24PM
Shade right away. I agree with you. A family has far more toys today than when I was a tyke. This has become for the most part an entertainment driven economy, where before economics was mostly driven by the need for sustanance. The economy does have its cycles, but what we are experiencing now is largely driven by government, by artificial economies like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, by high taxes, and by money devaluing, all government programs and policies. And you are quite right, the sooner we get the crooks, liars, cheats, and thieves out of government, the better. My biggest concern is the electoral process, with an electorate populated by those on the dole, and a vote counting machine that corrupts the voting results. As Stalin said it, "Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who COUNT the votes decide everything." Democrats count the votes.
BackToBasics| 6.14.11 @ 11:58PM
ALL the signholders asking for money or work that I see are white. I mentioned this a week or so back. I live in a top 20, racially-mixed metro area so I would expect to see blacks and Latinos by the roadsides, corners and exit ramps too but I do not. Sure some signholders are probably scam artists but not all. I've travelled to 5 other large cities too in the last 6 months and have seen the same there as well. It's a big country and I'm sure there are exceptions but just noting the signholders I've seen so far in more than one city.
BackToBasics| 6.15.11 @ 12:01AM
And it surprised me to see it since it only dawned on me about a year ago and I've "profiled" these folks more since then.
Rick| 6.15.11 @ 4:28PM
Your a rasist!
jgo| 6.17.11 @ 2:17PM
Another category Reiland didn't clearly mention are hundreds of thousands of people working below their knowledge, ability, credentials and experience because the jobs aren't available (including but not limited to STEM fields). A former software architect serving coffee is not a fully-employed coffee server, but an under-employed sofware architect.
I'm more afraid of the promises cousin Obummer has made and may manage to implement (in light of the ones he has implemented).
The difference is that the starter house before 1950 was paid for within 5 years... and the toys, now made in Red China, don't last as long.
The most direct means the feral federal government has to increase employment rates would be tax cuts for interviewing, relocating, educating and training US citizen... but the pols refuse to consider it. (Of course, it would be better to totally eliminate both the pay-roll taxes and income extortion, but short of that this is about the best one can hope for. And so on this front as well as others hope and change turn into hoax and chains.)
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