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A Further Perspective
Jehovah or Marx?
On the question of Israel, Obama supporters will have to decide whose side they’re on.
Years ago a man with a history as a careful investigator told me on the basis of his research into his own family tree that I was probably Jewish. He reached that conclusion because his research found that Italians with place names were usually descended from refugees of the Jewish diaspora who had taken the name of the place where they finally settled.
Ferrara is the name of a town in northwest Italy, an old mining town that came to be dominated by Marxist mining unions, unfortunately. Ferraro is the equivalent of Smith in Italian, a name denoting a profession as a blacksmith. But Ferrara is the name of the town of origin of my father’s side of the family. My mother’s side hails from Sicily, which culturally more suits my personality.
I was delighted to consider the possibility that I may, in fact, be of Jewish heritage. For as a Christian, I had read a lot about the history of the Jewish people in the Bible, and easily identified with them.
That detailed Biblical history documents the life of the Jewish people in the Holy Land almost two thousand years before the birth of Mohammad.
Obama’s Trap Door for Israel
It is from that perspective that I approach President Obama’s call for Israel to return to the so-called 1967 “borders.” The 1967 lines were never borders in any formally recognized sense. Those were the armistice lines at which Israel stopped the advance of the attacking Arab armies in the 1948 war at Israel’s birth. Neither Israel, nor any Arab nation, nor even the UN ever recognized those lines as the official borders of Israel.
UN mandates and resolutions have called only for Israel to negotiate a final border with a Palestinian state for the region’s Arab refugees, which Israel has agreed to do. These refugees were never expelled from Israel. They originally fled from the area upon the order of the invading Arab armies. Nearly a million Arabs live within Israel today with all of the standard rights typical of citizens of western countries, equal to the rights of Jewish citizens.
It is only decades of repetition of sophisticated propaganda that leaves us today referring to the West Bank as occupied land. The historic name for those West Bank territories is Judea and Samaria. I will leave you to ponder the etymological roots of that name “Judea.”
President Obama’s 1967 borders would divide Israel’s original historical capital of Jerusalem, returning Arab control over East Jerusalem. That would include the Old City where King David ruled in 1000 BC.
Jewish settlements in the West Bank are legal under international law since the land was won in a defensive war, after Israel was attacked in 1967. Those settlements consequently are not illegal occupations of Palestinian territory. Those settlements are presently subject to further negotiation, as is the rest of the West Bank.
For these reasons alone, President Obama’s call for Israel to return to its 1967 “borders” should be rejected out of hand. And I am glad to see that Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has already done precisely that.
As Netanyahu said in the White House last Friday sitting next to Obama with the cameras rolling, regarding the President’s 1967 borders proposal, “It’s not going to happen. Everybody knows it’s not going to happen, and I think it’s time to tell the Palestinians forthrightly it’s not going to happen.” Netanyahu further explained that Obama’s proposed 1967 borders were indefensible, saying, “Remember that before 1967 Israel was all of nine miles wide, half the width of the Washington Beltway. And these were not the boundaries of peace: They were the boundaries of repeated wars—because attacking Israel was so attractive.” Those 1967 lines also “don’t take into account demographic changes that have taken place over the last 44 years,” as the Jewish population has teemed over the 1967 lines in extensive nearby settlements.
Then there is President Obama’s “contiguous state” problem. Obama said in his speech last Thursday at the State Department, “The Palestinian people must have the right to govern themselves…in a sovereign and contiguous state.” For those unfamiliar with the geography of the region, the Palestinian settlements in the West Bank are on the eastern border of Israel, and the Palestinian settlements in Gaza are on the western border of Israel. For those who don’t yet see the obvious problem, Charles Krauthammer explained it in his column last Friday, “How do you get contiguity with Gaza? Does Obama’s map force Israel to give up a corridor of territory connecting the West Bank and Gaza? This is an old Palestinian demand which would cut Israel in two.”
In yesterday’s Wall Street Journal, the brilliant columnist Bret Stephens noticed that in President Obama’s speech to AIPAC on Sunday, the President claimed credit for boldly “choosing the hard road to Mideast peace” with his path-breaking and controversial 1967 borders proposal, while insisting “there was nothing particularly original in my proposal,” claiming it had long been the American position on Mideast peace negotiations. As Stephens explained, “Yet assuming Mr. Obama knows what he’s talking about, he knows that’s untrue: No U.S. president has explicitly endorsed the ‘67 lines as the basis for negotiating a final border.” He noted that in 2009 Obama’s own Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had called this position “the Palestinian goal.”
In his AIPAC speech the President tried to suggest that his formulation of his proposal, for Israel to return to the 1967 lines with “mutually agreed swaps” only means negotiations over the final border. But that is not what those words mean in plain English. What they mean is that Israel can keep any of its settlements in the West Bank only if it gives up enough of its original land within Israel to get Palestinian consent. But as explained above, Israel has the right under international law to its West Bank settlements and should not have to buy Palestinian assent to them with its own land, effectively giving the Palestinians a veto over those settlements. That has not ever been the U.S. position before, and Netanyahu was quite right in already rejecting it.
About the Author
Peter Ferrara is Director of Entitlement and Budget Policy at the Heartland Institute, General Counsel of the American Civil Rights Union, Senior Fellow at the National Center for Policy Analysis, and Senior Policy Advisor on Entitlements and Budget Policy at the National Tax Limitation Foundation. He served in the White House Office of Policy Development under President Reagan, and as Associate Deputy Attorney General of the United States under President George H.W. Bush.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (323) | Leave a comment
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Clint| 5.25.11 @ 6:20AM
"AIPAC appreciates President Obama’s speech today at our annual policy conference in which he reaffirmed the importance of the U.S.-Israel relationship and the shared values that define both nations. In particular, we appreciate his statement that the U.S. does not expect Israel to withdraw to the boundaries that existed between Israel and Jordan in 1967 before the Six Day War. We also commend President Obama for his explicit condemnation of Hamas as a terrorist organization and his recognition that Israel cannot be expected to negotiate with a group that denies its fundamental right to exist. We also welcome the president’s reaffirmation of his long-standing commitment to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons."
Apparently, these AIPAC people are going to vote for Obama again.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 10:56AM
Let's hope not. It will depend on what happens between now & Nov. 2012. If the UN declares a Pali state and zero goes along, I think that might wake them up-finally.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 11:00AM
Otherwise, it's going to take mushrooms sprouting over Tel Aviv to do the job. Let's hope it doesn't come to that.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 11:01AM
I belong to AIPAC. I voted for McCain in 2008. I will vote for anyone except Paul the Republicans have in 2012. I will not vote for Obama under any circumstances in 2012.
You're funny, Clint. You have no clue how diplomacy works.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 11:06AM
Mornin' OT.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 11:07AM
Morning Irish. Good to see ya.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 11:20AM
So, what is your take on the AIPAC thing? Will they endorse zero?
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 11:52AM
They don't endorse anybody, actually. They are kind of like the NRA in their single focus, will happily support anyone who supports Israel (the NRA is NOT a Conservative organization---it is a pro firearm ownership organization. A rampaging Liberal shooter, like Oberstar, will get their support, for example). But it is not in their interest to directly oppose or support anyone.
It's diplomacy, you see.
I personally can't stand Obama. That's my personal position. As a member of AIPAC, I'm given plenty of guidance on what to contact Reps about and what AIPAC's message is, but the group NEVER endorses or opposes anyone in the open fashion the NRA does, not even someone like Ron Paul. It is assumed that political junkies (which AIPAC members tend to be---note me) can figure this out for themself.
For example, I voted for Cravaack because Oberstar's position on Israel was pretty well known (in addition to the fact that he was a Liberal Feeb and Arrogant Asshole). AIPAC merely presented the voting information. We paranoid, security conscious Jews (as opposed to the Liberal idiots) could easily take it from there.
Contrary to some people's opinions, there is no real lockstep, nor do I support the Israeli position blindly. But I, for example, view the Palestinian Government (both halves) as a death cult, and base my opinions on what is necessary to keep Israel safe and secure. A major reason for that as an American is because they are our buffer state, soaking up a lot of attacks that would be directed at the Big Satan should they fall.
I do suspect, however, that a majority of AIPAC supporters may end up voting for Obama simply because Liberalism has infected them in much the same way as the Alien takes over people's bodies in the movie series of same. I totally agree that it makes no sense for a relatively affluent, highly industrious, highly educated persecuted group to vote for a Marxist Maniac.
As usual, Irish, thank you for your opinions, your wonderful questions, and your wicked sense of humor. Today I had a patient threaten to put me in hell where he would follow "but only for a thousand years." Given what I deal with each day, your blogs are a lovely tonic.
Con Chef (NB) | 5.25.11 @ 12:09PM
Well put, Occam. You & my Dad would've gotten along wonderfully.
(The Poster Formerly Known as NavyBrat)
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 1:13PM
Congrats on your promotion from Brat to Chef (I think.....)
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:46PM
Con,
I am highly, highly honored by you.
W| 5.25.11 @ 12:55PM
OT, i have several friends from Israel, they all served in the military there, and they cannot/do not
believe how American Jews vote for lefty candidates who are weak on Israel, and how they demonized Nixon who saved Israel in 1973.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:45PM
I know. At least my kids are being raised right.
Claypoole| 5.25.11 @ 1:07PM
Dear OT,
Would like to know your view, as a psychiatrist, of Obama. I know you would be hesitant to diagnose anyone you haven't seen professionally, but isn't there something about chronic lying being an indicator of a psychopath?
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:44PM
I refuse to diagnose Obama. He's a Leftist asshole, and that's good enough for me.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 2:01PM
You say Leftist Asshole, I say Malignant Narcissist...
(And isn't it funny that the Former are often the Latter..?)
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:16PM
And, incidentally, all severe Psychopaths I have met are also Malignant Narcissists (we have a regular Pro-Paul blogger who fits these categories perfectly).
You see why I like you, Dr R. Regardless of your views on my salvation, I like you a lot.
Next argument: Vienna versus Nathan's. Vienna, in my opinion, no contest. (See the fantastic Mandy Patinkin monologue on death and hotdogs in "Dead Like Me" for the rationale.)
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 2:39PM
The only Vienna sausages/hotdogs I know are the little ones that come in a can.
You like those???
...Oy...
DRed| 5.25.11 @ 3:54PM
Hebrew National is the only answer.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 3:56PM
Dr Right---my dear, dear man, you are sadly mistaken (on this, if on nothing else that I would argue with you)---Vienna Hotdogs are THE Chicago Hot dog featured in every hot dog stand in that glorious, if politically misbegotten, toddlin' town. They are geographically limited in distribution. One can order them off the internet from the Lou Malnati's website, but best to go to the City, go to a hot dog stand, and order them on a sesame seed bun with mustard (ketchup is apparently a sacrilege). Failing that, check the Vienna Hot Dog on the web and see if one is near you (I believe there are several out West in Arizona, as the Cubs do Spring Training there, and my dad attends every year.).
The "little ones in a can." Would you judge all meat sold in Minnesota by SPAM? ;)
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 3:58PM
And Vienna, served steamed in Lake Michigan water, is much better than Hebrew National. DRed, ya need to go to Chicago, guy.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:48PM
Here's the link so that you may be edified, Dr R (on this matter, it IS important that we attend the same church ;)):
http://www.viennabeef.com/.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 5:17PM
All this is very interesting, but I've never been a tube steak fan. Give me one of my homemade brats, parboiled in beer and then browned off, on a hard roll, with cheese, mustard, & horseradish (freshly grated, not the sauce).
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 7:53PM
Can't argue, but Vienna is really special.
KyMouse| 5.27.11 @ 2:01PM
Good news, OT -- swing by Louisville some time and get Vienna Hotdogs at Lonnie's Best Taste of Chicago restaurant (121 St. Matthews Ave.). It's a small joint, but they do have those great 'dogs.
irish19| 5.28.11 @ 10:01PM
Yeah, but how's the beef sammich? There's the mark of a true taste of Chicago.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 1:04PM
Sure I do Israel Firster Fanatic,Tool Job.
Money Talks, Bullshit Walks.
Tell Us how AIPAC "Pipelines" Money To Presidential Candidates & Congressional Candidates.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 1:20PM
The voice of the disgruntled and self-identified disenfranchised speaks...
Did you adjust your tinfoil hat today? Or are the micro-receivers in your fillings (implanted by Zionist aliens) playing "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" on a continuous loop?
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:47PM
See why I like you, Dr R?
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 2:02PM
I thought it was my playful laugh...
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:17PM
That, too.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 5:46PM
Uh Oh !
Dr.Reich Attempts To Line Up Backwards & Play The Nazi Card.
Backwards March, Dr.Reich !
Goose Step, Goose Step, Goose Step !
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:45PM
So does the NRA. It's how the game is played, Clint...
You're funny.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 2:41PM
I think the NRA has made direct endorsements in the past. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:00PM
The NRA does---actually, they are very simple---if you are pro-gun, back the incumbent. That is their stated position, so they avoid pissing off Dems or Republicans who are both pro-gun running against each other.
But AIPAC tends to avoid direct confrontation, as it invloves a much more explosive issue than handguns. That can backfire.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 5:20PM
Always with the name calling. What is it with you? You're fine, and actually make some cogent points at times. However, as soon as someone disagrees with you in the slightest, you resort to the ad hominems, name calling, and attempts at bullying. Do the words civilized discourse mean nothing to you?
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 5:58PM
"AIPAC does not give donations directly to candidates, but those who donate to AIPAC are often important political contributors in their own right. In addition, AIPAC helps connect donors with candidates, especially to the network of pro-Israel political action committees."
" Occam's Tool:"
"I do suspect, however, that a majority of AIPAC supporters may end up voting for Obama simply because Liberalism has infected them ......"
Soooo, Let's Just Take A Wild Guess Which Party's Candidates Get Most Of That AIPAC Money.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 7:02PM
The supporters are not necessarily the ones who decide where the money goes. They just contribute. The key phrase is "pro-Israel." If (and this may be a very big if) the money does go to pro-Israel candidates, then they are being true to their mission. If I remember correctly, the NRA supported a RINO with a pro-gun voting record over a tea party challenger-I believe it was Crist in Fla.-although I could be wrong about this.
If the contributors don't like where the money goes, they can always contribute directly to their favorite candidate. A OT said, he's got a $1,000 check for West (IIRC) should he decide to run. Last cycle, I contributed directly to Fred!-the first time I ever sent money to a candidate. If I like who the Reps run, I'll contribute directly to his or her campaign rather than running through the RNC.
Again, the key phrase here is "pro Israel." Or "pro gun" for the NRA.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 9:17PM
"What is AIPAC? A nationwide network of local political action committees generally named after the region their donors come from supplies much of the pro-Israel money in American politics. Additional funds also come from individuals who bundle contributions to candidates favored by the PACs."
"AIPAC, the country’s most powerful pro-Israel political group, does not give campaign contributions but does spend more than $1 million annually on lobbying. Note: Democrat Tom Daschle was the largest beneficiary of that group’s efforts back in the 1980s. In the 1990s, Bill Clinton and former California Governor Gray Davis were huge beneficiaries of “Jewish giving.”
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 10:15PM
That sounds a lot like something that might come from Wiki. Are all the donors from Israel then?
Also, lobbying is not the same as campaign contributions as your second quote makes clear.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 11:25PM
They Are Talking About Regions Of The United States.That Should Be Obvious.
That First Quote Comes From Stanford University's Department Of Education, Sport.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 11:31PM
It wasn't quite obvious.
Since the quote had no attribution until you just provided one, how would one know where it came from?
I like sports. Shooting, hunting, and rugby are my faves.
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:07AM
I Played Right Wing For Philadelphia & Will Be Attending The Upcoming NCAA Sevens Tournament With My Brother,Who Was Our Captain & My Brother-In-Law Who Played In England.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 12:45AM
So? You want a cookie? Who cares?
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 1:08AM
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz !
Gotta Do Better Than That.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 1:19AM
Now you sound like RCV!
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 2:32AM
You Sound Like The Bore You've Become.
Now You're The Chairman Of The Bores.
irish19| 5.26.11 @ 10:24AM
Interesting. So, does the U.S. have a chance to make it out of group play this fall?
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 11:48PM
CINO Tim*/Skinflint Clint,
Sport?
You're like a BAD Humphrey Bogart impression with multiple personalities and Tourette's syndrome!
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:08AM
Get Bent Asshat.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 12:19AM
Ooooo! Obscene expressions from such a pristine pinhead.
Come! Join our American Zionist love fest, Skinflint.
You can bring the latkes!
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:35AM
Ha,Ha,Ha, Ha !
The Little Pussy. Nicky From Detroit Is All Upset & Atwitter Now.
Box Of Tissues Crybaby ?
Hmmmmm Sniffles ?
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 12:50AM
That's a paraphrased line from the Breakfast Club, brainiac. Have you no culture, Skinflint?
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:55AM
That's Your Problem Twerp Coward Little Nicky. You Ain't Got A Pair.
Box Of Tissues Crybaby ?
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 1:18AM
I know you are, but what am I?
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 2:36AM
You're Confused.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 2:38AM
I'm A Wigger & A Wannabe From Detroit,
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 2:39AM
And, You're An Argument Against Yourself.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 7:56PM
Have I mentioned, Clint, what a fantastic job you do fulfilling The Great Commission? Threatening to punch 65 year old guys out, calling Jews sandmonkeys, generally being an irritating asshat---what a marvelous job you do in recruiting converts to the Church. I gotta say, I'm sure the Pope is wanting more Catholics to behave and talk JUST like you. And so is your local priest. Why don't you ask him?
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 8:42PM
Interesting, That The Israel Firster Fanatic Tool Job is now reduced to mocking My Catholicism.
Let's See. You Israel Firsters Have Already Mocked Veteran U.S. Military Officers, such as Dr. Ron Paul & My Highly Decorated Combat Officer Father, & Laughed at The Deliberate Slaughter Of Our U.S. Seamen Of The U.S. Naval Ship ,The U.S.S. Liberty, at the hands of The Israeli Military.
American Spectator Readers Will Sort You Out, Israel Firster,Tool Job.
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 11:40PM
The only one mocking your CINO Catholicism.....is you. Jackass.
AmSpec readers like me, Skinflint. They loathe you.
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:14AM
Wanna Make Somethin' of It Cupcake . Little Nicky Twerp From The Detroit Suburbs.
Hmmmm Twat ?
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 12:34AM
Cupcake?
Now you sound like a BAD Edward G. Robinson impression with multiple personalities and Tourette's syndrome!
And you know which chosen race he belonged to, right? You are starting to sound like a Zionist, Skinflint.
Congratulations!
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:39AM
Uh Oh !
Now, Little Nicky Is All Angst Ridden & Flustered & Sputtering.
Now, Keep Tryin' Little Coward Twerp Nicky.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 12:52AM
I'll keep going as long as you keep spreading lies about Israel, Skinflint. Or, you choose to join our American Zionist love fest. Are you game?
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:59AM
You're The Slandering Liar Little Israel Firster Stooge Bootlicker Nicky.
Let's See Ya Tell Your Lyin' Crap To The Faces Of The Surviving Seamen Of The U.S.S. Liberty.
They'll Spit In Your Slandering Liar Coward Israel Firster LapDog Face, Little Puke Nicky.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 1:17AM
No they wouldn't. They would buy me drinks all night long and thank me for my service in Operation Desert Shield/Storm.
They would tell you to, "go fetch us some pizza, sissy-boy."
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 2:25AM
Don't Play Your " I Was In The Service, So I Can't Be A Traitor" Crap Against The U.S.Seamen Of The U.S.S. Liberty.
You're A Traitor Bastard Coward Little Nicky & You Ain't Got The Guts To Do A Damned Thing About It, Pussy Coward Little Nicky
play nice| 5.25.11 @ 1:07PM
What is that sucking sound?
Alan Brooks| 5.25.11 @ 8:33PM
"Obama supporters will have to decide whose side they're on."
Clint will have to decide whose side HE is on-- Goebbels or Churchill's.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 9:48PM
Israel Firster ObamaBoy Jonathan Alan Brooks Pollard Here, Mocked My Highly Decorated Combat Officer Father,Who Led The Very First Allied Troops into Paris, A Half Hour Ahead of The French Column commanded by French General Leclerc.
This Is What These Israeli Firster Traitor Bastards Are About.
I Just Help To Expose Them & Let The American Spectator Readers Sort Them Out.
Alan Brooks| 5.25.11 @ 9:59PM
"Mocked My Highly Decorated Combat Officer Father,Who Led The Very First Allied Troops into Paris"
Not the father, then- only the son is a traitor?
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 11:32PM
Noooo, ObamaBoy Neo-Chickenhawk Coward Israel Firster Jonathan Alan Brooks Pollard, You're The Traitor Bastard, Who Mocked An American Hero & Now Tries To Deny It & Your Repeated ObamaBoy Traitor Bastard Israel Firster Agenda,Which American Spectators Have Read Over & Over Again.
That's Why You're Considered The Resident Court Idiot Here At American Spectator.
Live With It ObamaBoy Israel Firster Troll Court Fool
Appleby| 5.25.11 @ 7:10AM
Obama is bringing about Armageddon.
When Satan took him up on the mountaintop and offered him the rule of the world if Obama would worship him, Obama made the deal --- being too greedy and ignorant to realize that Satan, like Sauron (which is a figure Obama is much more likely to recognize) does not take partnerships.
Wicks trimmed, lamps filled, and eyes on the door. And you will not need Harold Camping for the signal will flash from horizon to horizon...just like 9/11/01.
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 10:48AM
Why don't we consider this: abandoning Israel altogether?
It seems to have survived quite well with and without Jews occupying the seats of power over the last several thousand years.
It is strategically irrelevant any longer, costs an enormous amount of money and effort to keep it going (much akin to FEMA stilt houses lining the gulf).
Other Semites, especially Christian Arabs, have lived and thrived under varying regimes, and will continue to do so whether a Jewish state continues to exist in the modern world.
Our target on AmSpec should be on the faux Christian whackjobs that link 3rd Temple mysticism to contemporary politifact. AIPAC has done a masterful job linking the two together - to the detriment of us all.
BHO's stance is identical to the policies of 6 presidents before him. The difference? How could a marxist with Hussein in his name be speaking rationally about Israel?
Perhaps the racists here can explain.
It is time for the US to think forward about the region, its importance to us and what investment, if any, we should devote to this fantasy any longer.
As a Christian, Jerusalem means nothing to me other than a testament to where Jesus was betrayed then killed by imperialists, underwritten by populist fervor and Vichy-esque accomplices.
His light exists everywhere in the world, and the region needs to be placed back into proper context.
George True| 5.25.11 @ 11:02AM
I have a better idea. How about we abandon the so-called Palestinians? (They are actually Jordanians.) They produce nothing but murder and mayhem, and they indoctrinate their children to hate Jews and Americans. And yet, our government sends them BILLIONS of dollars of our hard-earned money to support them in their little empire of dependency and criminality. It's way past time that we cut them loose and let them fend for themselves.
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 12:21PM
have you ever been there?
Not the Israeli mandated tourist traps, but amongst the locals?
I have as a tourist gotten into an argument with Israeli guides that refused to even acknowledge the multi-ethnicities of Bethlehem, you know, the birthplace, or Nazareth or even Jerusalem - that has ALWAYS been multi-ethnic for thousands of years.
I was treated shabbily by the Israelis (like a living wallet) and treated extremely well by ALL of the Israeli Arabs and Palestinians that I came into contact with. A generalization yes, but all politics is local, and these people are not demons.
The true irritants in Israel are the Russian expats that call themselves "settlers". They are not "settlers", they are soldiers and know the deal much better than us "observers". The wall they are erecting is an abomination and effectively makes the palestinians prisoners.
I do remember the pretext for the state of Israel was something about repression of the Jews. Have we now dressed up another repression under the veil of "security"?
Remember, Rabin's bullet came from a zealot, not a sweaty-faced suicide bomber.
Ireland, SA, Quebec and even Sudan all had improvements when the apparent disparities in people's lives were recognized and solutions imbedded into law.
Dehumanizing the Palestinian only prolongs their agony and our ill-advised presence in the equation.
W| 5.25.11 @ 1:10PM
You remember something about something about some repression of the Jews as the pretext for the Israel state? To refresh your memory that repression is called the Holocaust, the murder of over six million Jews.
SpiralArchitect| 5.25.11 @ 2:35PM
The way you sum up the meaning for the existance of (geographically) Isreal the land should be taken from the Fatherland, Germany.
What about the 20+ millions of Russians that were exterminated during the similar time... They are just SOL, eh?
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 2:46PM
While I have sympathy for the Soviet citizens and soldiers who lost their lives (and respect, too...I'd like to visit Volgagrad one day), I don't think we can forget that the Soviet leaders brought destruction upon themselves.
Up until June, 1941, Nazi Germany and Stalin's USSR were allies. They signed a non-aggression pact, and even invaded Poland on the same day, but from different directions.
If Hitler hadn't broken the deal and invaded Russia, Stalin wouldn't have lifted a finger to help and free western Europe. But when he was invaded, he immediately began whining for aid and a "second front".
And let's not forget...aside from the 20 million Russians killed during WW II, there are an additional 38 million(!!!) Russians who are unaccounted for between 1924-1953, the years of Stalin's Reign of Terror.
Stalin killed far more Russians than Hitler ever dreamed of. That's why they share a small, over-heated flat in hell.
W| 5.25.11 @ 5:03PM
I did not sum up the reason for the existence of Israel. I only reminded canukst that the proper term is not repression but HOLOCAUST.
And the land was not taken from anyone, Jews have been there for four thousand years. There was not state or nation called Palestine. The area was part of the roman empire, ottoman empire. The UN resolution was to create a Jewish state and an Arab state in the area. The Jewish state is obviously Israel, the arab state is Jordan. Jordan expelled the palestinians. All this self righteous anger should be directed towards the Arabs who expelled the Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, they are not some separate ethnic group. But by using the label "palestinians" instead of "arabs" it makes it sound to persons unfamiliar with history that there was a state called Palestine and the Jews expelled all the Palestinians from this mythical state of Palestine
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:14PM
W,
thank you, sir, for your beautiful writing.
W| 5.26.11 @ 9:52AM
OT,
We cannot accept the premise that the land belonged to the "palestinians." That premise leads to the arguments and statements that Israel is "occupying" the land, and the Jews are the bad occupiers who have to return the land. Just last night, Juan Williams, a more rational member of the liberal media, stated on Hannity that the problem is the Israeli occupation. They keep repeating this word "occupation" so much it has been accepted by many. This needs to be corrected every time it is raised.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 1:22PM
So on a tour of someone else's country, you got into an argument with a Tour-Guide because he/she didn't buy into your 3rd-world, victim-mentality, woe-is-me, evil-zionist bullcrap??
What a shock...
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 2:29PM
Actually my relating of my experience was in reaction to you calling ALL Palestinians murderers and mongers of mayhem. Israelis, like any other group, are simply humans - good bad and ugly. Vested interests can do strange things to people.
Indians are taught from an early age that Pakistanis are BS purveyors to the extreme. Is this true? Possibly.
Americans are taught from an early age that the American revolution was about tyranny and uppity rich land owners being fed up with a mental king had nothing to do with it.
Southerners are taught the civil war was the war of northern aggression, predicated on enforcing yankee controls over commerce - and the hearts of minds of those in favor of southern "traditions".
Israel is a gem of a country surrounded by dog dung, but let's take the romance out of it.
The UN created Israel, by leveraging innate anti-Jewishness worldwide and throwing the locals out of their own homes to salve our guilty feelings in the wake of the holocaust, the state was born. That part is true.
The fact that nations surrounding Israel felt this last crusade by wounded euros to deal with the Jewish "problem" was a raw deal is also true.
60+ years of the US playing big brother with very little aquiescence by Tel Aviv leaves me tired and bored of the whole issue, and lumping entire tribes of peoples as murderers and mayhem makers is dehumanizing, simplistic and simply wrong.
My problem with the tour guide was that she openly perpetuated the belief that the Holy Land sites in Arab neighborhoods were dangerous, unwelcoming and irrelevant to me.
I found the tourist traps supprted by Israel to be expensive, unwelcoming and disney-sanitized. Within a hundred yards, the vendors and sites managed by Arabs were cheaper, wholly welcoming and presented in a truer state than I witnessed in the former.
My tour was all western Christians, and to a man, all found the behavior of our Israeli handlers repulsive and a new consideration that the situation of the Arabs was not exactly as it was being portrayed for us by "trusted" sources both here and in Israel.
As an AmSpec observer, I expect more reason and deliberation, but instead we get an echo chamber.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 2:48PM
"...the situation of the Arabs was not exactly as it was being portrayed for us by "trusted" sources both here and in Israel."
Oh, I see.
And all those thousands of rockets that the Palestinians have been lobbing at the Israelis since the early 70's? Fiction?
And you had this epiphany because some nice Palestinians made you coffee?
There's a word for that: Sucker.
There's a term, too: Useful idiot.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:03PM
Well, the tour guide may have screwed up. But do go to Gaza without a tour guide NOW, please. Please, please.
the only thing you said correctly is that Israel is a jewel of a country surrounded by dog dung. So, because you had a shitty tour agency, you would embrace dung and give up on jewels.
You ARE a Liberal.
Nunya| 5.26.11 @ 2:37PM
Canuck, I would add one more thing to the conversation--it was the PALESTINIANS that were cheering in the street when the towers fell, not the Israelis. That should tell you enough to know that they HATE us, no matter what, and no amount of money, nor Obozo's lame diplomatic attempts will ever change that.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 1:24PM
Refresh my memory...
Why do you live in the west again?
You seem to hate it. One guesses that your hatred is actually born of jealousy in knowing that in your native land, the main mode of transportation is a donkey, while we in the West enjoy an unparalleled standard-of-living.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:48PM
And Dr Right nails it from Downtown....and the fans go wild!!!
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:19PM
A donkey? That sophisticated? I keep on seeing them transport things with those damn square wheels....
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 2:41PM
I don't live in the west, I live in America.
I consider it patriotic to question leadership, to hold my government to account and to have enough humility to know that I know very little, but am open to ideas and facts to help explain why we do what we do.
My education and Christian faith teaches me that patience and forgiveness are strengths not weaknesses. I seldom have to write contracts with clients as they know my word is my bond, and I do not run away from responsibilities.
I am not a fundamentalist, but the question "what would Jesus do?" does enter my deliberations, and I have sacrificed for it - gladly.
Would Jesus evict people from their homes to make way for his own tribe?
Would Jesus kill anyone to justify a man-made boundary?
Would Jesus take any of the positions the US takes in these affairs?
I am not smart enough to know, but I do know he would understand nuance better than the hawks on here do.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 2:51PM
Would Jesus send suicide bombers to cafes in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem?
Would Jesus hijack airplanes, and kill passengers?
Not sure what the word "fundamentalist" means to you, but if sounds as if you disdain the term.
Leftwing Christianity is NOT Christianity. It's merely posing.
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 3:31PM
One thing I do know is that I am not Jesus, and get angry and aggressive as much as the next reasonable man.
I disdain any -ism that purports to claim the truth exists in every syllable of any text written by a man. That includes OT, NT, K or LRH.
You are apparently from the right wing of Christianity that claims good things come to good people and the total depravity of the soul stuff.
Or see a "miracle" when a few people are pulled alive after scores are killed in natural disasters or otherwise. That kind of rationalization is infantile and minimalist thinking.
It is that absence of reason that condones bad behavior worldwide and places blinders on our own eyes when we choose to ignore the consequences of our own countries' acts. That's not self-loathing, it's acceptance of responsibility.
It is also not moral relativity as I abhor aggression in all its forms.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 4:23PM
"I disdain any -ism that purports to claim the truth exists in every syllable of any text written by a man. That includes OT, NT, K or LRH."
Interesting. In a previous post, you claimed to be a Christian.
BTW...The OT/NT is the inspired Word of God.
I guess you disdain that, though?
Actually, I believe that all men are inherently depraved AND lost without the death and resurrection of Christ.
"Reason" is nice, but it's been used to justify some of the most abominable behavior that's ever been perpetrated on mankind.
Men who claim to use "reason" as a guide like to tell the rest of us that "reason" tells them God does not exist.
I find that opinion to be HIGHLY amusing.
In other words, "reason" let's them accept that the entire universe happened all by itself, that it came from nothing, again , all by itself (which is a remarkable trick since "itself" didn't exist, so it had no motivation to spring forth), but they can't believe in God.
That's not "reason". That's arrogant stupidity.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:52PM
Ah, a pacifist, a Liberal, and a Pro-Palestinian.
Stay away from my kids, canuck.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:04PM
The West is America, Canuck. By the West, Dr R is not referring to Wyoming, but the place where Western ideals of religion and government reign.
SocStud| 5.25.11 @ 8:14PM
You know, I seem to remember something about God commanding King Saul to wipe out the entire nation of Amalekites to the last man, woman, child, and animal - in 1 Samuel 15 - because the Amalekites had attacked the Israelites in the Sinai during the Exodus from Egypt.
So, perhaps Jesus might.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:48PM
Thanks for playing Canuck. Stay in Canada.
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 2:42PM
Nope, I'm staying right here with you.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 2:55PM
And again, why?!?!
You self identify with Canada, and some back-water Craplakistan. You criticize America - constantly - but you choose to live here, anyway.
You're not fooling anyone.
The place you come from is another 3rd-world cesspool. You know it, we know it, and you now we know it.
BTW...Your Hillary-esque description of patriotism as dissent is silly and peurile.
Dissent is not by definition "patriotic". Some dissent is actually stupid, and even treasonous.
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 3:33PM
So, is your sycophantic march over the cliff more patriotic than my expression?
I love America, it is just going through another inward-looking stage that it will emerge from shortly.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 4:25PM
What march? What cliff?
And yes, I've got a feeling that I'm more patriotic than you...Per the classic definition, not your more fluid, updated, liberal definition.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:18PM
Not demons until you have your "Lunch in Tel Karem," Canuckistani.
The Israelis should have kicked your gonads in.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:56PM
Lunch in Tel Karem:
"Searching for handmade clay flowerpots to furnish their restaurant, two Tel Aviv yuppies decided on January 23 to ignore an Israeli ban on their entering Palestinian Authority areas. They met a Palestinian friend, eluded Israeli military roadblocks, and ate lunch in the town of Tulkarm.
The outing ended tragically when, after the trio at their lunch, masked men shot the Israeli pair in the back and neck, killing them instantly. The PA made a brief and unconvincing show of arresting the murderers; in fact the killing went unsolved and unpunished - just one more no-cost assault on Israeli Jews during the Barak era."
There's a reason you are/were taken to protected areas, asshole. The Israelis would have been blamed if you were killed. It seems that you were with a group of Liberal Christians, who by definition don't have the common sense G-d gave to a Leprosy ridden Armadillo (yes, that is a disease vector for Hansen's).
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 11:02AM
You'll think differently when Shai-hulud gets released if Israel falls, Canadian fool. (Not Appleby)
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 12:30PM
What are you talking about?
Is Israel falling?
They have treaties with Jordan Egypt and detente coming with Syria and Libya.
The settlements in the West bank have ZERO to do with security but everything to do with Likud's willingness to endear themselves to Russian zealotry and American guilt cash.
This is how they stay in power, and we are paranoid about Shai-hulud?
Get real.
A Palestinian state angers both fringes equally. Job done.
Appleby| 5.25.11 @ 11:03AM
Anybody who thinks Canada is USA Lite needs to realize that a sizeable majority of Canadians would agree with this wingnut.
I suggest that we do a swap with America and all the conservatives can move down there and all the idealistic lunatics can move up here. Then we can patrol the border with death rays.
Doorgunner| 5.25.11 @ 11:34AM
"Our target on AmSpec should be on the faux Christian whackjobs..."
I don't base my "targets" on religion, I base them on threat. Inarguably, Israel and the U.S. face threat from the same sources.
And get a clue, Schmuckistani, no foreign power can operate militarily in the region -sensibly, anyway- without Israeli intel.
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 12:05PM
What are you talking about? The same intel that enabled the neocons in Iraq and nearly enabled them to conjure a similar folly with Iran? Or is there another source of israeli intel that the US has profited from recently?
I must have been asleep.
The Mossad has only one objective - protect the Jewish state at all costs, not help their allies. If we are aided by Mossad intel, it is only to advance their interests, not ours.
Jews have rightfully come to suspect ALL smiling men with "solutions" to the regional problem. It is time to wipe the smiles off our faces and get serious with both parties. Settle it or we are gone and they can find another dupe government to carry on the fraud.
Doorgunner| 5.25.11 @ 1:11PM
What are YOU talking about? Israeli intel had nothing to do with us going to war in Iraq and I never said that it did.
And I don't give a crap about your take on "neocons", either. The U.S. military doesn't choose the war, it executes it. I averred that the best intelligence source indigenous to southwest asia is Israeli. Very fortunately for me, personally, Israel is a U.S. ally.
Your assertion that Mossad does not assist allies, except to further narrow national interests is incorrect...as in you don't know what you're talking about.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 1:27PM
"The Mossad has only one objective - protect the Jewish state at all costs."
Duh.
No s***, Sherlock. That's normally what an Intelligence Service is supposed to do.
Sure, in the place you come from, the Intelligence Services (like the general populace) are full of kleptocrats, sadists, and Islamic nut-jobs...but that's a different world (Thank GOD!).
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 2:44PM
At one time yes, but the CIA and NSA are getting better.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:11PM
Canuck,
I have strong reason to suspect YOU. You are up to nothing that will keep my children safe. Why don't you run off and marry Clint and have lots of syndrome babies.
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 2:45PM
You should suspect me, I like the rule of law, you apparently do not.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 2:56PM
Sharia law, evidently.
Have no doubt...The American Brotherhood is watching you.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:05PM
No, you have no clue how to protect little girls. I deal with the Law every day in my job, and uphold it.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:12PM
Yes, and you also smile. A lot.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 6:12PM
Israel Firster Fanatic Tool Job Is Fixated on Tea Party Clint, Our Tea Party Co-Favorite, Dr.Ron Paul & Our Tea Party Senator From The Commonwealth of Kentucky, Dr.Rand Paul because We Don't Asskiss Israel Firster fanatic Tool Job's Agenda.
This Is America, Israel Firster Fanatic Tool Job, Not Israel.
The Tea Party Rebellion Escalates.
Carpe Diem.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:13PM
Magnificent job of upholding the Great Commission, Clint!
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 12:41PM
Appleby, you would agree that MOST Americans would gladly live in Canada if it weren't for the weather.
The politics is remarkably left wing regardless of the political stripe.
If you voted for Harper, and I'm thinking you did, then you voted for:
1) Quebec recognized as a Nation
2) Universal, single-payer Healthcare
3) NO abortion debate
4) NO same-sex marriage debate
5) NO capital punishment debate
6) NEW Taxes on financial instruments
7) NO to bank mergers
8) NO relaxing of gun carry laws
9) NO reductions to immigrant quotas
10) NO debate on the Human Rights commission
11) YES to giving up security sovereignty on the 49th
12) YES to government intervention in commercial deals
All of these put Canada's conservatives to the left of Kucinich.
Canada's views on Israel have been refreshingly moderate over the decades, and we could learn from them here.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:13PM
If you're to the left of Kucinich, you terrify the hell out of me. Harper is the best PM you have ever had (you had a crappy one in WWII), and your country is known for its mediocrity.
Old Soldier | 5.25.11 @ 4:31PM
Been there plenty of times. The only thing we can learn from them is - lower your corporate taxes, and drill baby, drill.
The rest is socialist crap with a stupid accent.
Fairbanks99@hotmail.com| 5.26.11 @ 10:27PM
They make really good beer too. Labatt Blue!
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:49PM
You're always welcome in Minnesota, Appleby. You would get along stunningly well with She Who Must Be Obeyed....
KyMouse| 5.27.11 @ 2:24PM
Canuckistani, you say that "As a Christian, Jerusalem means nothing to me other than....". Well, as a Christian, you should keep in mind that Jerusalem has quite a future ahead of it, as told in Revelation 21:2 (and following verses):
"And I, John, saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband..."
I've always thought it interesting that Catholics call Rome "the eternal city," when in fact that title belongs to Jerusalem, as the verse above indicates.
Rome just celebrated its 2,764th birthday.
And Jerusalem? It is 3,015 years young.
Stormzeye| 5.25.11 @ 7:34AM
My feeling is that secular "Jews", that is those who reject their religion as mythic but embrace their culture as heroic victimhood, are the Jewish supporters of Obama. Those Jews who are pious (called "conservative" by the "reformed") are the ones who understand that Obama and the Democrats are undermining the continued existence of Israel. Cong. Alan West's defeat of former Cong. Ron Klein in the most Jewish district of South Florida and perhaps in the U.S. is an excellent example of what can happen in 2012.
I Survived Arlen Specter| 5.25.11 @ 8:42AM
I agree entirely. The entire Jewish population in this country should not be lumped together and labeled Democrat & Obama supporters. That said this column is right on the money. The nation of Israel will play a large role in God's plan going forward as we move into the end times & they are still God's chosen people. Aligning against Israel will eventually lead to aligning against God. Back to Obama & the Democrats it should also be noted there are many people who still vote for Democrats election after election more so because they know nothing else than because they agree with the modern day Democrat Party platform . I live in a community in Bucks County, PA & am surrounded by senior citizens as neighbors, many who lived through World War II. Most, but not all of these people remember the Democrat Party in power during the years of World War II & these people still credit the Democrats with leading this nation during those tumultuous years of their lives & each election they reflexively vote Democrat down the ballot. A lot of them don't know what actually makes up the Democrat Party platform today & the issues today's Democrat Party support unwaveringly. To them there is no difference between Democrats of the '30s & '40s & the Democrats of 2011. I've asked my next door neighbor how she could support the current administration unwaveringly. Needless to say the conversation quickly lead to anger & defense on the part of my neighbor. "The Democrats lead this country out of very hard times in my life & they will always have my vote!" After that statement I might as well have been talking to a brick wall. There was no getting through because she just stopped listening. Like I was equipped with an "on/off" button & she pushed the "off" button. If or when these people & their families wake up & realize today's Democrats are not the same Democrats they voted for when they were living through World War II the Democrat Party will be in trouble. Same with unions. As the unionized workforce continues to diminish, more lost Democrat votes. If the black community wakes up, the Democrats will be like the S.S. Titanic after it hit the iceberg. That is, as long an amnesty bill is not passed. The Democrats really take a lot of their voting bloc for granted. As the World War II generation passes away, unions continue to shrink, & Democrats keep slaughtering their own through legalized abortion on demand they are going to have to replace these lost voters. This is why they want amnesty for illegal immigrants. Any Republicans willing to go along with this are in effect slitting their own Party's throat. Will The Stupid Party remain stupid? I guess we'll find out soon.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 10:17AM
"The nation of Israel will play a large role in God's plan going forward as we move into the end times & they are still God's chosen people. Aligning against Israel will eventually lead to aligning against God...."
I hear this often from folks in the congegration I belong to, and as I ask them, I will also ask you:
On WHAT do you base this assertion?
The nation of Israel, founded in 1948, is NOT the Nation of Israel that was established by God in antiquity. That it exists in roughly the same location is irrelevant. The current state is a political entity founded as a political solution to the problem of millions of displaced Jews who had no home after World War 2 and the Holocaust. In other words, it was created by men.
The original Israel, founded by God, ceased to exist in 70 A.D., with the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem, which included the destruction of the Temple records and the long-cherished genealogy tables by which the people of Israel knew that they were among God's "chosen people".
And that phrase itself is illustrative of the point. Too often, "chosen people" is bandied about as if to imply that God "chose" the Jews because he thought they were more peachy than other people, and this is simply NOT true. The word "chosen" in "chosen people" implies a purpose; in other words, "chosen" for what??
The answer is simple: They were "chosen" to be the people through which the Messiah would be brought into the world to redeem mankind's sins, and to prepare them for the task, God gave them "the Law", and the observance of the Law is what made them Jews.
Well, that task was completed almost 2,000 years ago with the death and resurrection of Christ. In essence, Judaism itself was completed at the Cross. It's purpose had been served. The salvation offered through Christ freed the Jews from the rigors of the Law, and opened the promise of salvation to gentiles (ie, everyone else).
Based on these truths, the modern state of Israel is NOT going to play any special role in any future "end of days". Judaism itself is defunct, and those who call themselves Jews today cannot even reliably prove their lineage since the records were destroyed in 70 A.D. In fact, most modern Jews are Ashkenasim Jews, meaning their genetic heritage is European, not Sephardic (or middle eastern).
The Millenialist view of Israel is a strange one, given that it originates from Bible-believing and faithful Christian who should know better. And yet, it persists.
Now...NONE of this means that we as an American nation should not totally and fully support Israel, because I firmly believe that we should. Regardless of what one chooses to believe about religion or history, the fact remains that the modern state of Israel is a free, democratic, and independent nation that has ALWAYS been a reliable and trustworthy ally of the USA. That alone merits our friendship and continued support.
As I'm sure that this post may cause some controversy, let me state for the record that I bear NO animus towards Judaism, nor do I believe in any collective, historical guilt being upon the Jewish people for the death of Christ – that's pure nonsense, and I would argue against ANYONE who makes that claim.
canuckistani| 5.25.11 @ 10:57AM
I do not agree with you very often, but your sober analysis is very good.
Your point about allies is also important, but the continued defiance by the Likud party to over 40 years of American policy proposals demands we start to withdraw our unconditional support at some point. My preference is yesterday.
The majority of Israelis want a two state solution and agree the 1967 borders are likely the answer.
We must stop listening to the perverted rationalizations of Likud and the guilt-addled factions in the diaspora as our sole sources of opinion.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 11:38AM
I think the borders should be whatever the majority of Israelis think they should be. Right now, Netanyahu is PM, which does not support your argument. The 1967 borders would put Israel's nuclear armed forces on a hairtrigger. I don'tthink that's particularly bright, and I would not listen to the objections of a deathcult (Palestinian nationalists).
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 12:18PM
The "continued defiance by the Likud party to over 40 years of American policy proposals"..?
Do tell...What proposals? What Administration?
I didn't know the Israeli Likud Party was bound by American Law or "proposals".
Let's not pretend that you and I agree on this, because we don't.
I would NEVER support a withdrawal of American support for Israel. To the contrary, I long for the day when we have a President who tells the Israelis to do WHATEVER they need to do to guarantee their security. If it was up to me, I'd kick EVERY Palestinian out of Israel for good.
Old Soldier| 5.25.11 @ 4:37PM
The borders of Israel - just like the American borders, German borders, Polish borders, etc.., are based on who won the last war.
The Germans got kicked out of Prussia, Silesia and other places by the millions after WWII. Nobody cared. I don't care about the Palestinians either - they have a long losing streak and won't win next time either. But I'm supposed to feel sorry for them and their failure to learn?
SpiralArchitect| 5.25.11 @ 5:08PM
Has there been a time when a devout Jew has said that God worked through those men to that resolution in the late '40s?
Interesting premise...
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 11:05AM
Dr Right,
I respect you greatly...but you fail to note that survival in the face of impossible odds is its own argument. We were contemporaries with the Assyrians...and the USA.
G-d alone knows the answer to this. In the meantime, thanks for your support for my children's survival, however derived.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 12:01PM
O.T.:
Not sure what you mean. I have always recognized the precarious security situation that Israel is faced with each and every day. If I were President, I'd tell them to do whatever they need to do to defend their borders.
And for the RECORD...I DO NOT support a "two-state" solution. Let the Arabs step-up and absorb the Palestinians, like they should have done in 1948.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:51PM
It's the difference between theological disagreements and existential agreements, Dr. R.
I disagree with you somewhat theologically (duh, obvious award), but politically and in just about every other way we agree. And I thank you for your advocacy of positions which keep my kids safe.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:34PM
Sorry, Doctor Right:
the survival of the Jews is an empirical answer to the question of whether G-d exists. I think so, anyway.
Given that, other suppositions follow. Again, that's a view to discuss over great steaks. I appreciate your kindnesses.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 11:36AM
Dr Right,
no one would assume that I look the least bit ashkenazim. By the way, Russian Jews generally are not considered Ashkenazim, which refers to German Jews. There are a LOT of Sephardim.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 12:03PM
O.T.:
Hmmmmm. I took a year of Judaic Studies in college, and my Professors (both Jewish, and BOTH excellent) taught me what I posted.
I need to look into this.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 1:53PM
I'm confused onthe point myself. But in the US, ashkenazim generally refers to German, not Russian Jews. Hence the tension between the German Jewish population and the Johnny Come Lately Russians circa 1900-1920. Refer to the State Department under John Hay.
OldViperPilot| 5.25.11 @ 11:53AM
Rather than try to explain why I think you are incorrect here Dr. Right, I would humbly refer to you the book of Romans, chapters 3 and 9-11.
It seems quite clear to me that these verses, along with Psalms 122:6, Genesis 12:3, and Numbers chptr 3 (to name only a few) indicate a clear basis for the assertion your congregation friends make.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 12:05PM
Romans 3:23-25
"22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus."
Exactly my point.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 12:09PM
Romans 9: 30-32
"30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone."
Also supports my point.
OldViperPilot| 5.25.11 @ 12:41PM
I am so glad you agree, but please don't stop reading. These verses are all true, but a proper context is rendered when Romans chapter 11 is also read. Do not be so eager to read to prove your point, but rather read to understand. The scriptures quite clear in chapter 11 on the still future plans G-d has for Israel.
David T| 5.25.11 @ 1:24PM
Stop, you're both right (in a sense). The NT Church has replaced OT Israel as the people of God. Under the New Covenant, it is now God's will that all, Jew and Gentile alike, come to a saving knowledge of Israel's Messiah, Jesus Christ. In the world to come, the Twelve Tribes of Israel will be restored, but for now Israel is just another nation-state, albeit a democratic one and our staunch ally.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 1:40PM
God's plan for "Israel" is the same as His plan for ALL people:
That they be baptized into Faith in Christ. Period.
To assume otherwise is to assume that God wishes some to remain as Jews to fulfill some OTHER master plan, one which only Christian Millenialists can discern within scripture.
That's one reason why I dislike Christian Millenialism. It seems to be self-directed. In other words, it's selfish. It assumes that a special gain will come to Christians by supporting Israel because Israel was founded by God. Both points are poppycock.
God wants ALL to come to him, and he has commanded ALL Christians to preach the Good News to ALL men, Jewish or otherwise.
Again, I ask:
1. "Chosen" for what?
2. Genealogy proven...how?
3. Hebrew...how?
Number 3 is not a trick question; to be a Hebrew under the Law, one needs the Temple and the ability to make specifically prescribed sacrifices under the Law AT the Temple.
There's NO Temple today.
Additionally, I have yet to encounter any Jew, Orthodox or otherwise, who follows the O.T. Law to the letter (or to the best of their ability, as prescribed in the O.T.).
WHEN was the O.T. Law deemed a voluntary issue for Jews?
If one self-identifies as a Jew, denies the divinity of Christ, but does NOT follow the O.T. Law in it's entirety, then how does one actually claim to be a Jew?
I'm not asking to be a smart-ass...I'd really like to know. And I'd like a Christian Millenialist to explain it to me.
I didn't take anything out of context. You did. You're trying to force-fit your view of the modern state of Israel onto scripture.
Sorry, but it doesn't fit.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:01PM
Looked through the Wiki on Ashenazim---it can be useful on some things (and my Jewish history tomes are at home)---they mention many German Jews migrated eastward during the 11th-19th Centuries. Nonetheless, there was significant difference in culture and much hostility between German Jews and Russian ones in the turn of the century USA. This is one of the reasons Galveston TX became an immigration center for Jews.
Anyhow, I just have a passing acquaintance with the New Testament (Biblical Literature and Life, TCU, A plus) and would not dispute you theologically on that issue from your point of view, Dr R. My point is simply this: surrounded by ever encroaching walls of Liberal, pro-Islamic scum, and those in turn supported by idiots who think isolationism will work against bullies, I'm glad you're supporting my kids', and your kids', survival.
"Actions speak louder than."
I'm NOT a purist. I just want to win.
simon templar| 5.25.11 @ 2:39PM
I am not an expert in christian millenialism but have read extensively over the last 20 years on both points of view regarding the role of the jewish people and have come across a ton of christian scholarship that supports this millenialism as you call it that is not self directed but based on scriptural references and theological analysis. Like most religious interpretation and belief, it often boils down to one's agenda, your faith, or your own effort to read, sift through, and digest as much as you can to get at the 'truth.' I can not tell you how many times I have re-evaluated my understanding of a biblical concept or belief when presented with a more accurate contextual picture of that concept by a learned historian, archaelogist, and linguist. I think a large portion of what you hear at your church service is only half the story and often loaded with slight to partial misinterpretations.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:21PM
Like I said, Dr Right---I appreciate the fact that you want to keep me alive, and I would trust you in the corner....
I'm all about results, not methods.
simon templar| 5.25.11 @ 2:24PM
Dr Right: Your views on the new church and the old testament church and all the rest of your interpretation is a common one and one that I have heard many times. To say however, that Judaism and Jewish identity is defunct is saying that Yahweh has broken his covenant with the chosen people. He has not. He does not break his promises. There is a great deal of biblical scholarship that supports these millenium ideas and the idea that God has not abandoned his chosen people, that the modern Israeli state was prophesized along with the scattering and subsequent return, and that all nations should be careful not to act in a way that harms his people or their nation. As many quotes from scriptures that you may bring forth, there are an equal number of quotes that support the so-called faux christian views of the Jews and Israel's special role. I have read both arguments and both hold a great deal of weight and I personally believe that these scriptures are whole and contain an integrated view. However, like most religious discussion and interpretation we end up with unecessary dichotomies..one group looking at the tail and the other at the snout. But aside from the religious beliefs, they are many more valid reasons for support of Israel and the Jewish people ranging from our shared values, history, and common heritage let alone our shared and common enemies.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:31PM
Thank you, Simon. You are beautiful to read, and, I believe, correct. But I like Dr Right, and consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds, so I bug him not.
My point is that at the end of days if it's the Moshiach he will owe me a Ruth's Chris steak (my view of heaven should be coming through, and I found the joint before Hannity), and if he's right it will be time for me to quickly convert. Either way, I don't see it in my lifetime, and in the world we share, he's my pal, and could babysit my kids.
I'm a very simple guy, really. By the way, Ken, who I know personally, does INCREDIBLY wonderful things in his real life for people. I do work with indigent mentally ill folks in remote rural areas, and I stand in awe of Ken. I'll leave it at that, to protect privacy. ;)
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 3:13PM
"...and if he's right it will be time for me to quickly convert."
But you can't, O.T. It doesn't work that way.
Scripture is clear that at the end, even among those who call themselves Christians, many will cry for the Lord and be rejected, and He will say "Away from me; I never knew you."
I wish it was as you say, but I don't believe that to be true. You can't wait to see how it's going to end before making a decision to follow or reject Christ.
And by the way, as a Christian, I believe that that applies to all people of all faiths. I'm not singling out Jews.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:08PM
I will take that chance. As Simon put it, I don't believe the Lord is through with me yet. But I have no doubt where the Righteous Gentiles, such as yourself, will end up, Dr. R....so either way you get to win (unlike the difference between Hannukah and Christmas gifts, where I get to win).
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 4:34PM
Why take the chance?
(And I don't look at it as "winning" - that's for Charlie Sheen).
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:59PM
Because I actually hold to my faith in my own way, boss. There is something to it, both culturally and spiritually. We do not proselytize, so I cannot explain it, but I can feel it. G-d Bless you, sir.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 5:00PM
Now, going away from theology, you really need to try a real Vienna hot dog. Not the little (blechh) sausages in the can. I gave you the website, Dr R. Try it out!
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 3:08PM
"To say however, that Judaism and Jewish identity is defunct is saying that Yahweh has broken his covenant with the chosen people."
No.
What an odd interpretation. You have it backwards.
The question you need to ask yourself is "WHAT was God's promise?"
The relationship between God and Israel was a Covenant relationship. Intrinsic to that relationship was the PROMISE of a Messiah.
God delivered on that Promise.
Therefore, the agreement is completed. It was fulfilled.
It was NOT nullified.
God did not break his promise.
Israel (Biblical Israel) broke theirs.
The Old Testament prophecies are clear about the lineage of the Messiah, and His coming. Yet when He came, He was rejected by God's Chosen people (not all, obviously).
Had they NOT rejected Christ, but embraced him as Messiah, then there would be no Jews today.
The problem is that people persist in looking at Christianity and Judaism as separate religions, when in fact, they are not.
Faithful Christians recognize the validity of the Old Testament - of Judaism - as the beginning of the Word. That Word was fulfilled on the cross; Judaism reached it's inevitable conclusion, and the faithful were intended (by Judaic prophecy) to embrace Christ as Messiah. Judaism – the Law - was no longer necessary. Christ freed men from the Law by fulfilling the Law.
Look, I have no illusions about how Jews view Christianity. That's not to say that they have contempt for it (although I'm sure some do), but if you are a believing, faithful Jew in the 21st century, implicit in that idea is a rejection of Christ as Messiah. In other words, one is a Jew, one does not recognize the validity (correctness) of Christianity. I'm not offended by that; I believe in free will. So I hope that any Jews who read my posts will not be offended by what I'm writing.
simon templar| 5.25.11 @ 4:06PM
You need to go back and re-read the old testament. The promise was forever to Abraham and his descendants..they broke his covenant many times before Christ showed up. In fact the ot scripture phrophesizes His coming and rejection, the scattering of the people, their return, their eventual salvation and restoration. The idea that the Law is no longer relevant is another common perception. "I have come not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it." You are bound to obey it as before and always..and you will be judged by how you have followed it. You are saved by your faith in Him and pardoned if you remain true to that faith and obedience despite your PAST failures. The law has not been swept away. They are still his chosen people and their destiny is yet fulfilled. This an age old question. Another one like it is, what about the millions of human beings who have lived before JC and after that never had the chance to hear the message? Were Abraham, Issac, and Jacob saved? It goes on and on. Please do not take this as an attack on your beliefs or personally. At the end of the day, one thing remains the same, love your brothers. Our jewish brothers worship the same God..the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob...and their destiny is in His hands, they have and will continue to play a role in His story.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 4:31PM
Forever – Yes!
But through Christ, NOT the Law.
You're not making sense.
Is the Law of the O.T. STILL valid?
If you answer yes, but claim to be a Christian, its you who need to re-read the scriptures. I don't think you understood what Christ meant when he said he "fulfilled the Law". And yes, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob WERE saved; the Law and atonement was how people were saved before the death and resurrection of Christ.
If the Law of the O.T. is valid, then why aren't today's Jews following it?
simon templar| 5.25.11 @ 4:59PM
The laws given by the Lord, like the ten commandments, not the jewish traditions and customs laws, are still in force. This is the age old argument of are they saved by works or faith. What you are implying is the Jews are damned and no longer are relevant or play a role in His story. This is not for you to decide and there is a mountain of theological "evidence" from genesis to revelation saying otherwise. Some of this a mystery and will always be until the end. I am not making this up but have based it on years of research and personal study of these issues as they once plagued me. There is much theological writing and scriptural based interpretation that Jews will be given another chance in the Second Coming and the interplay of the anti-christ who will mislead many, even the elect. As far as people not following the laws, christian or jewish we do not have to look far. Take a look at the catholic church, whereby they call the priest, father, when this is strictly forbidden by JC, or the worship of Mary as deity and Mother of God. I do not know..ask them. I am not trying to change your beliefs but only trying to share with you what I have learned and let you know that there is a lot of other viewpoints on these matters that are not just self directed but are scripturally based. I apologize if I sounded curt or sounded as if I thought you were stupid. You are cetainly not stupid but highly intelligent and well informed on many of the issues we discuss out here.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 4:32PM
As a Christian, I am not bound by the Law of the O.T.
No one is, any longer. That is OVER.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 4:35PM
If His promise was "forever" through the Law, then WHY did Christ come to redeem us?
David T| 5.25.11 @ 5:18PM
The promise to Abraham was that through "his seed" (Jesus) all the nations would be blessed--Jew and Gentile alike. That promise will hold through eternity. With the coming of the Messiah, however, the old covenantal sign of circumcision was replaced by the new covenantal sign of baptism. In other words, the Church (the mystical body of Christ) is the true Israel now. The "works of the law" that St. Paul talked about (i.e., the ceremonial things Jews did) have indeed been swept away. They are not salvific, and they never were. Jesus was quite clear, though, that the moral law stands forever, and by it we will be judged. It is only by His grace that we are saved.
Ken (Old Texican)| 5.25.11 @ 7:44AM
Peter,
You must have been reading my book when you wrote this column.
I simply gathered all of these threads and extended them into the future.
I hope you will check out my new blog site.
www.txbooks.blogspot.com
Dee See| 5.25.11 @ 7:45AM
STILL MORE distraction and exhaustion
media ops from our 'good friends' at the
ever 'EUGENICS friendly' Tavistock Institute.
Mimi| 5.25.11 @ 8:18AM
Can you just see the "DIE-HARDS" Like Chas. Schumer, Debbie Wasserman-Schultz, and Anthony Wiener making that CHOICE ? They would have to have ..PRINCIPLES. If you think that this is the END of the story...GET REAL ! Obama will come up with some more faux-pas....Who writes his speeches? Who watches the Polls on issues? This country was and IS impressed with a firm , honorable LEADER, Netanyahu....I hope the democrats are awakened to a desire to seek that for AMERICA.....Time , maybe to take that walk up to the White-House and have a serious talk with OBAMA!
PattyMor| 5.25.11 @ 9:04AM
Why do the Demons win elections, when the electorate is basically center right? Well there is the electorate's attachment to entitlements, although the electorate could do better with private investments. There is also a myth of Demons being the party of the "little" people, when they are no such thing. They are the party of welfare queeens and elite businessmen who want the deck stacked in their favor (like Warren Buffet & his support of inheritance taxes). They have a lot of money from the wealthy like George Soros, patron of all things radical, Hollyweird, sports, and all those "empathy professions" which support the welfare state. And, they are willing to cheat by stuffing the ballot box and stuffing the voter rolls.
So viva, la Tea Party Revolution. I supported Toomey, Schilling, Schock, Bachmann, and the Senate Conservatives Fund.
C Smith| 5.25.11 @ 9:11AM
A Nation Born in One Day?
Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children (Isaiah 66:8).
On Sabbath Eve, the 5th Day of Iyar 5708 (14 May 1948) David Ben-Gurion declared the establishment of the State of Israel and appealed “to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews of Eretz-Israel … in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream — the redemption of Israel.” President Truman, an outsider unexpectedly elevated to the Oval Office a few years earlier, was immediately notified. Quickly hand correcting a two sentence response without notifying officials of contrary opinion in the State Department or a Special Session of the UN General Assembly, the United States, in the person of Harry S. Truman, was the first to recognize “the provisional government as de facto authority of the new state of Israel.” In the eleven minutes it took Truman to respond, the two thousand year justification for SPIRITUALIZING Israel's covenants, promises, and blessings vaporized! The children of Israel were in the land.
The first person of course is the radiant woman which was none other than the nation of Israel. And fighting against the woman was the great dragon and this dragon is none other the person of Satan in his great diabolical work in trying to destroy the nation of Israel because by that he could make God a liar... Of course he ultimately fails because God will yet proclaim His purpose for Israel. He will yet reveal that purpose. It will yet be unfolded in time to come and the very fact that Israel is a nation today is indicative of the fact that God is going to keep His Word as if there was any doubt (The Valley Church, emphasis added).19
There was dancing in the streets, and then the realization that Israel’s rebirth would be through the fire. Arab forces of Lebanon, Syria, Iraqi, Egypt, Tran Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and Yemen converged within hours to annihilate the fledgling nation, which in the estimation of British Field Marshall Montgomery would occur within two weeks due to the imbalance in training and ordnance: “1 tank w/o gun (Arabs 40 tanks), 0 war planes (Arabs 74), 5 artillery pieces (Arabs 140), 3 armed ships (Arabs 12)” (Yosef Ofek, Not on a Silver Platter: From National Home to Sovereign State, 1939-1949, 1984). Israel did have access to a few Piper Cubs, from which Jews tossed empty seltzer bottles modified to mimic the sound of falling bombs. They also had a few other small planes where the bombardier, legs strapped to the door, would chuck improvised bombs (some with sewer pipe casings) between his legs football style. Like David in the valley of Elah they had little more than sticks and stones, but they were fulfilling His purpose “that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel” (cf. 1 Samuel 17).
19The Valley Church, Chapter 13, 9/14/75, (audio tape).
http://theisraelofgod.blogspot.....e-day.html
Louis Tully| 5.25.11 @ 9:44AM
Nope. They won't ever abandon Obama, even if he starts selling weapons to Hamas. AND, they will still claim to support Israel. AND, they will still smear conservative supporters of Israel as anti-Semites. That world view is never changing.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:03PM
Louis, unfortunately, you are correct, especially as Israel becomes increasingly ultra-capitalist (See Start Up Nation).
Canuckistani, did you complain to the tourist agency? They can't correct what they do not know.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 9:54AM
21st century Jewish Liberals bear much in common with those Biblical Jews (not all, please...) who preferred their Law to the advent of the Messiah, and duly rejected him.
In both cases, the TRUTH, as foretold by history and precedent, was staring them right in the face, but they chose their customs and traditions instead.
Liberalism IS the religion of the Liberal Jew, and he/she will never turn against it.
They chose Marx long ago...And they're still dealing with it today.
There's nothing new under the sun...
Louis Jenkins| 5.25.11 @ 10:24AM
Baptist, and others, will support Israel. The Jews of America, although not all, will continue to support Obama and possibly Satan. They are Democrats thru thick and thin, and nothing will change them. They will be left behind.
Sometimes I cannot wait for the cycle of end times to end, other times I don't want to see the results.
Citizen Jerry| 5.25.11 @ 10:34AM
Marx is dead. Jehovah is not. Choose this day who you would serve.
tallMel| 5.25.11 @ 11:08AM
nicely concise
Redstateboy| 5.25.11 @ 10:48AM
Islam is a Religion of the intollerant and the extreme and to Ever think that Muslims will Ever tolerate Israel OR anyone who is of another Faith is delusional.
John| 5.25.11 @ 10:51AM
This website should change is name to americanzionistlovefest.org
an entire article based on fairy tales.
Isreal has no Borders- I'll give you some - they're approximately twenty miles of the coast of Palestine in the medeteranian sea. The palestnions will get their freedom . It is a question of when not if.
Just a reminder Marx was Jewish . An intersting bloke - don't make a Jew choose between a Jew and a christain. you can have a greater isreal but not a Jewish isreal. one day you will see the reality when you wake from your dream.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 11:06AM
Dear John,
you will be in hell first, old boy.
Ken (Old Texican)| 5.25.11 @ 11:23AM
Hey, John muhammed,
how are you doing today?
Did you begin the day raping your little girl wife like muhammed the pedophile liked to do?
There is NOTHING you can write that will EVER erase the sin against the true God of molesting innocent little girls.
You muslims are a disgrace to the human race, and your ending is drawing near.
Sooner or later you dumbbunnies are going to take one step too far, and we Americans simply seal you off to starve, squatting in the dirt with your goats.
www.txbooks.blogspot.com
Teaghan| 5.25.11 @ 11:48AM
Learn to spell and use your space bar John so you might be taken seriously.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 12:14PM
Muslims are funny in a buffoonish kind of way...
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 3:04PM
americanzionistlovefest.org?
Ohhhh yessss! I just dig me some Gentile/Zionist lovin'!
I especially like it with some bagels and lox!
(No cream cheese, I'm lactose intolerant.)
Then I like to take my Zionist lover's Menorah and use it to light the fuse on a bomb and throw it into a mosque...
Oh...no...wait a minute... I don't do that. It's stinking arab Moslems who bomb houses of worship, both Jewish and Christian, as well as malls, restaurants, buses, elementary schools, etc.
Now...back to that American-Zionist love fest.
I hope they serve Manischewitz!
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 3:06PM
Obviously, this was aimed at John, not DR.
Not sure what happened there.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:09PM
We know. Nice job, Nick.
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 5:28PM
Thanks Occam!
George True| 5.25.11 @ 11:19AM
John: Your sad devotion to a pagan moon god (Allah) and his mass-murdering child-molesting so-called prophet (Mohammed) is quite pathetic. And the so-called Palestinians (the are actually Jordanians) will never have peace as long as they also worship Satan in the form of Islam. Your precious Palestinians are the most miserable excuses for human beings in today's world, who have never missed an opportunity to reject peace because of their murderous hearts. They could have peace tomorrow if the really wanted it, but they don't. Sooner or later, one way or another, they will destroy themselves. Their inbred hatred pre-ordains it.
DRed| 5.25.11 @ 11:23AM
Oy. I have to give you credit for persisting with the lie that Obama's mention of the 1967 borders + land swaps is somehow something new. Of course, it's not. Don't take my word for it? Why don't you ask the Israeli Foreign Ministry. Here's a joint statement from Hilary Clinton AND Benjamin Netanyahu from last November.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Gove.....v-2010.htm
This is the good bit.
"The Prime Minister and the Secretary agreed on the importance of continuing direct negotiations to achieve our goals. The Secretary reiterated that "the United States believes that through good-faith negotiations, the parties can mutually agree on an outcome which ends the conflict and reconciles the Palestinian goal of an independent and viable state, based on the 1967 lines, with agreed swaps, and the Israeli goal of a Jewish state with secure and recognized borders that reflect subsequent developments and meet Israeli security requirements." Those requirements will be fully taken into account in any future peace agreement."
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:09PM
Pre-Hamas joining Fatah.
DRed| 5.25.11 @ 2:29PM
Yes, Occam. I heard you the first few times. Did you happen to hear what Obama has been saying about Hamas?
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:10PM
Yes. That's why his comments make no sense at all. But you are correct in a different, unintentional way, DRed, "Against Human Stupidity, the Gods Themselves, Contest in Vain."
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 11:23AM
"Choose you this day whom you will serve..." The Left chose years ago and why any of us remain in doubt is beyond me. Their devotion to central planning and government redistribution is Marxist whether they care to admit it or not. Euphemisms do not change the theory.
Ted Seeber | 5.25.11 @ 6:39PM
What, exactly, in this is "devotion to central planning and government redistribution"?
The NYSE is more about central planning than today's liberals.
John| 5.25.11 @ 11:26AM
Does isreal have border? Where are they?
Do palestinians have a right of return or not under international law? Jews have a right of return after two thousand years. Jews still claim property & assets stolen by the Nazis over sixty years ago. So surely a Palestinian has infinitely more rights of return then any Jew? Am I missing something you you Zionist love festers! I love the way the Zionist have got you all in a right tizzy regarding 67 border. All to prevent the palestinions declaring nationhood at the UN. Don't be to worried now. Uncle obama will wield the veto come September . And ther's all you in such a tizzy. Uncle aipac will make sure it all happens. Now go back to sleep until your masters need to get you all excited again. Sweet dreams .....
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 12:28PM
John old man:
There is and was, a Palestinian state/nation. It is named Jordan. The fact is when they attacked (agressive war) Israel in 1967, they lost. That is the risk one assumes when one attacks another. In point of fact the Moslem world should be grateful to the Israeli army as when it captured Jerusalem and the temple mount in '67, the Israeli commander on scene prevented the destruction of Al Aqsa mosque and The Dome of the Rock. We might ask who respects whom in the middle east.
Also ask why the Moslems left in 1948 and 1967. They were not deported by Israel, but left on their own volition. They have been used as political pawns and abused by their fellow religionists ever since. Right of return?
We might also ask where in the entire Moslem world are the Moslems most free? I suggest to you that the Arab citizens of Israel are just that, all 1MM of them.
W| 5.25.11 @ 1:22PM
Hey johnny, can you name one arab/muslim country where there is freedom of the press, freedom of religion, equality before the law for all, trial by jury, freedom to travel, and no so called honor killings? Also, name one arab/muslim country where the arabs have the rights that the one million arab residents of Israel have?
What country do you reside in?
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 1:43PM
Yesssss, Issssrael have border.
No. Palestinians no have right-uffff-return.
Did you not hear Netanyahu??? That neffer happen. Effer.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:09PM
By the way, it's spelled Israel, John. You are very painful to read, and not just for your opinions.
Paul Kotik| 5.25.11 @ 11:29AM
I'm not sure that collectivists are generally able to choose any god other than a collectivist one. They may be able to choose one flavor of collectivist theology over another - for example, Maoism over Islam - but I think they are generally not constitutionally able to liberate themselves from the collectivist error.
It seems to be some sort of basic wiring defect.
Teaghan| 5.25.11 @ 11:50AM
Dr. Savage says they have a mental illness. Sad.
Ken (Old Texican)| 5.25.11 @ 11:36AM
John muhammed,
to answer your question about Israel's borders...
The borders are where they kicked your muslim asses to when you attacked them...even when you wimps outnumbered them a hundred to one.
Muslims talk big, then always get your wimpy asses kicked when the chips go down.
Aren't you proud of yourselves?
Do something constructive...go rape your child again.
irish19| 5.25.11 @ 11:46AM
Good point. Which '67 borders would you like? Before or after the war?
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 1:46PM
I've got it!
Let's go back to the borders that existed in A.D. 67!
As an added benefit, Islam will be outlawed, since it didn't exist until 680 A.D.
All in favor, shout "Allah-Hoo-Hershey-Bar"!!!
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:22PM
Hershey Bar Kokva revolt!
RCV| 5.26.11 @ 2:25PM
Love the pun!
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 3:10PM
How about going back to the 1947 borders?
1947....B.C., that is!
(I cannot tell a lie, I ripped this off from a caller to the Hugh Hewitt show, but, don't tell anyone, okay?)
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 3:47PM
Dr.:
Have to be careful of your dates.
Mohammad, died 632 AD
John| 5.25.11 @ 11:51AM
Ken ( the purvy Texan)
Whats going on with you ken. I don't know you si I'm going to take a guess. But I think its porn. Do you watch it? If I was guessing again I would say you're into that interracial stuff? Probably some deep freudan stuff going on. its not your fault ken there is a big issue with porn in America. Don't worry I suggest cutting the Internet connection as a start. Oh no! That means you wont be able to give us access to your wisdom. Ah well, sacrifices, sacrifices ken.
Paul Kotik| 5.25.11 @ 12:00PM
Gene Hauber, see above for the answer to your question...
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 1:39PM
Just think what Gaza could have been if the people recognized their opportunity. They had a chance to become the Monte Carlo or Hong Kong of the Eastern Med but instead allowed their hatred for neighbors to dictate their actions. Build banks and casinos; open ports to free trade and get rich instead of buying missles to kill Jews. How sad it was, what might have been.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:15PM
My goodness, if the Palestinians stopped bombing people, they could do that today! The only thing keeping them from being rich is themselves and their leaders.
Doctor Right| 5.25.11 @ 1:50PM
Porn?
Didn't that cowardly, Islamic pussy-boy Bin Ladin have a HUGE stash of porn in his apartment??
And wasn't he watching it the night we Americans emptied his brain-pan all over the floor???
What is it with Muslims and porn?? They LOVE it! It's almost as if they come from a backwards, misogynistic, and sexually immature culture...the kind that breeds pedophiles and rapists???
Naaaaaahhhh!!! That's just crazy talk.
(And wasn't Arafat a RAGING homosexual, John? )
RCV| 5.25.11 @ 1:54PM
John, You're confusing Ken with Osama Bin Laden, who was apparently an avid porn consumer. Given the medeival attitudes in most Aram Muslim nations toward women and the display of any flesh, it's not surprising that they are such avid consumers of porn, and susceptible to the attractions of young boys.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:06PM
"Freudian" is the correct spelling, John the ignorant fool. And I doubt that Jew wants to have his name taken in vain by a child rape supporting scumbag, John.
Ken (Old Texican)| 5.25.11 @ 2:11PM
John muhammed,
you are funny/sad.
Go molest your child bride and do something constructive..........until the Creator of the universe calls you to account.
Virgin pigs are not wonderful.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:25PM
You see, Ken, you were backed up by RCV on this one. Even as a Liberal, he's a decent sort.
That's why I like him personally, even though he's gonna owe me a steak in 2012. ;)
RCV| 5.25.11 @ 3:45PM
... I can taste it already, Occam.
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 4:09PM
Cut me in guys. I look forward to meeting you both.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:13PM
Hey, that would be fun!
Nunya| 5.26.11 @ 8:58PM
I'm in! Just let me know where. :-)
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:11PM
You are so ON! Ken, can you be witness?
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 7:49PM
OT, Do you think Ken might know a goos steak house in Texas?
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:09PM
My advice---stick to Ruth's Chris. For example, I was underwhelmed by Cattleman's in Fort Worth.
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 10:05PM
A chain, really? How about something in Fredrickburg? I don't know about the steaks, but the German food is incredible. How about it Ken? You In? OT, thanks for allowing me to invite myself, but since I did, maybe I shouldn't pick the place.
RCV| 5.25.11 @ 11:19PM
Occam and I already settled on Ruth's Chris.
John| 5.25.11 @ 4:10PM
Ken & friends
All this is one big laugh for you guys. But remember the millions of palestnians who suffer under the appalling Zionist occupation. God will ask you on the day judgment concerning each and every one of them. As I have said before the zionist are hung by their own pitard. I see no Arab force on the horiZon that will liberate Palestine and al-quds ( jerusalem) - nevertheless the Zionist entity will collapse under its own contradiction. Palestine will be free from the Jordan valley to the medeteranian sea. I hope I'm alive to see it. What a glorious day that will be for humanity.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:14PM
"Palestinians." "Mediterranean." You hurt me, John.
KyMouse| 5.27.11 @ 3:55PM
And John, the expression is not "hung by their own pitard." It is "hoist with [or by] their [or his] own petard."
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 5:26PM
Oh yes! What a glorious day indeed.
On that great day, the poor, oppressed "palestinian" arabs will be able to go visit grandpa's old village, and see where his outhouse used to be! (This is funny because the arabs didn't know what indoor plumbing was until the EVIL Zionists showed up.)
I, also, hope I'm alive on that great day, for that is the day that monkeys will fly out of my butt!
RCV| 5.25.11 @ 6:05PM
John: I certainly don't think this subject is a big laugh. I think it's a tragedy of epic proportions. But let's review some history and see where the blame for that tragedy belongs.
When the centuries-old Ottoman Empire collapsed after World War II, the various peoples who had been its subjects -- Arabs, Kurds, Jews, Maronites, Armenians and others -- all clamored for states of their own and independence from colonial rule. The British and French had made lots of promises to each of these groups to win their assistance in the fight against the Ottomans in WWI. Some, like the Arabs, Maronites and Jews, got hearings and were successful in the short run in winning some degrees of indedepence. (Others, like the Kurds and Armenians, were less so.)
With respect to Palestine, the League of Nations formally entrusted its future to Britain under a Mandate for the express purpose of fostering "a national home for the Jewish people", echoing the language of the Balfour Declaration. The Arabs had hardly been forgotten -- the British set up a myriad of states for the purpose of rewarding their Arab allies from the War. They even took 2/3 of the Palestine Mandate and set up an Arab state called TransJordan for the purpose of mollifying the Emir of Mecca, who lost the power struggle in the Arabian Peninsula to the Saud family, and placed his son on the throne.
The British eventually reneged on their promises to the Jews in Palestine and washed their hands of the Mandate. The UN as successor the League had to step in. They carefully delineated the areas occupied by Jews and Arabs and called for the creation of two new states, including yet another Arab state. (The King of Jordan urged both Arabs and Jews to accept the offer in a federated state, but it got nowhere with the local Mufti who saw himself as a rival.) We all know what happened next: The Jews accepted the UN offer, the Arabs did not and attacked the new Jewish state. When the dust settled, Israel won most of the territory allocated to it and a bit more. Most of the area allocated to the Arabs in Western Palestine was seized by Jordan and Egypt.
At any time from 1948 thru 1975, Egypt and Jordan with a snap of their fingers, could have established an independent state in the West Bank and Gaza. They did not. Instead, they forced the Arab refugees into squalid camps and used them for political propaganda against Israel. Israel, meanwhile, absorbed the millions of Jews expelled from Islamic countries after 1948, fed and housed them and integrated them into society. Not so for the Arabs, who refused to use their millions in oil money to absorb Arab refugees and give them a decent life. The Palestinian National Assembly even ratifed Jordan's annexation of the West Bank and declared that Jordan WAS Arab Palestine, as it surely was intended to be. Egypt couldn't wait to get rid of Gaza, and didn't want it back when Israel returned the Sinai to it as part of the peace deal.
So let's put the blame for the condition of the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza squarely where it belongs -- on their own shoulders.
RCV| 5.25.11 @ 6:05PM
That's "WWI" not II
John| 5.25.11 @ 8:19PM
Rcv
Thanks for your thoughts on the geopolitics. But I'm afraid somebody forgot to tell the palestinians that somebody gave away there country to a Jewish nationalist movent started in Europe . The zionists continue to ethnically cleanse and take land from the Palestinians for the settlements. In east Jerusalem the palestnions live in a permanent prison. The desecration of Islamic sites is a common feature of Zionism. In over 100 plus years Zionism has not evolved. They are getting worse. This will be their undoing. It is unfortunate that most Americans heavy influenced by christain zionists give unconditional support to isreal. This does no favours to isreal. It damages American interest in a vital region of the world. If America continues on this trajectory then you don't have to be Einstein to predict a catastrophic loss of influence. Freedom will come for the Palestinians . The worst nightmare for the zionists must be that the Palestinians give up the fight for statehood and turn it into civil rights issue. One person one vote. where then Zionism ? Time is on the side of Palestine . To be a Jewish state isreal needs to go back not to the 67 border but to the 49 border .
Nunya| 5.26.11 @ 9:03PM
Outstanding history lesson, RCV. Thank you.
Todd S| 5.25.11 @ 8:48PM
Brilliant summary of the history of the founding of Israel and the Palestinian "refugees" RCV. Too bad most of your liberal friends (including Obama) refuse to accept it and always look to demonize the "Zionists". All you have to do is look at who Obama closely associated with in Chicago to know what his take on Israel was and you can't really deny that honestly RCV. Anti-Israel sentiment is rampant in liberal educational circles and particularly so in Chicago, see Bill Ayers and company not to mention Rev. Wright of course.
RCV| 5.25.11 @ 10:27PM
I have heard Barack Obama speak many times about Israel, both before and after his run for the Presidency. I have never once - not once - heard him "demonize Zionism". You can learn what HIS stance on Israel is by listening to what HE says. I don't listen to Pat Buchanan or Ron Paul to find out what other GOP leaders think about Israel. Many leading liberals have long been strong supporters of Israel. And the only people who care about what Bill Ayers thinks are TAS bloggers.
RCV| 5.25.11 @ 11:26PM
And, most American Jews are strong supporters of Israel AND liberals.
Todd S| 5.26.11 @ 10:49AM
I assume RCV Obama was speaking at fundraisers and that rich liberal Jews are an important source of money. I am talking more about those Obama associates with who are not public officials like his so-called Church he went to for 20 years which like to post Hamas propaganda in their newsletters. About Bill Ayers, alot of people are bothered by him and his close association with Obama as much as the liberal press plays it down and says he was just a guy "in the neighborhood". He ghostwrote his first book, hosted Obama at his house for Obama's run for State Senate and served on a board together for the Annenburg Foundation to indoctrinate young kids with Marxist thought. Obama is a two-face on Israel, he would have never sat in the pews for 20 years if he had the least bit of respect for Israel and was offended by anti-Semites. Too bad you can't face the truth and will cling desperately to anything you can that Obama actually gives a damn about Israel despite all the evidence to the contrary. Quite a paradox to be a liberal Jew who supports Israel, cognitive dissonance is a term that comes to mind.
RCV| 5.26.11 @ 2:24PM
The silly canard about Ayers "ghost-writing" Obama's first book is like the Kenya birth stories. You guys just make this stuff up, repeat it a thousand times on the internet, and then assume it's fact. And yes, The Annenberg Foundation (you remember Walter Annenberg, Ronald Reagan's close friend and political ally) is really into "Marxist thought"!
While you're weaving these fairy tales, President Obama is spending his time trying to dissuade the naive Europeans from supporting the Fatah/Hamas bid for statehood in the UN.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:09PM
"Petard." Oww, John.
RCV| 5.25.11 @ 11:24PM
Palestine IS free from the Jordan Valley to the Sea - in fact, it's the only democratic state in the Middle East, the only place where people of all faiths can worship freely, the only place where you can open a business or deal with a government official without having to pay corrupt bribes: it's called Israel.
GENE HAUBER| 5.25.11 @ 11:52AM
Why do we continue to allow ourselves to be governed by a dangerous effing moron?
WHERE'S THE OTHER TWO CHECKS AND BALANCES OF THIS GOVERNMENT....OUT TO LUNCH??? THEY'RE NOT BEING PAID TO EAT!
Paul Kotik| 5.25.11 @ 11:59AM
Because so many of us voters are also dangerous effing morons.
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 1:41PM
What is our option is ballots fail? Is there any but a remnant of Liberty loving people left?
Con Chef (NB) | 5.25.11 @ 12:17PM
As a Jew myself, I think its schmucks like these liberal "Jews" who were the same idiots who thought that the German people would NEVER do what they did to them, even after the gov't. sanctioned harassment began. And they're in good company. My aunt, uncle, & cousin (who works for John Dingel on the Hill) are all Jewish (she's my Dad's lil sis). And they just think the WORLD of Barack. And BOOOOY, do they NOT LIKE Bibi. Great. People who claim to be so religious support a politician who's associated with KNOWN Jew haters (Rashid Khalidi) & who love a system of government that has done more damage to Jews than even Hitler's ovens (Communism). And these same people condemn the man who heads their ancestral homeland in his bids to keep it safe.
Like I said, UN-FREAKING-BELIEVABLE!
(The Poster Formerly Known as NavyBrat)
From Townhall.com:
Ben Shapiro: "Jews in Name Only"
http://townhall.com/columnists....._name_only
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:07PM
Con,
I cannot help but agree with you. A "stiffnecked" people, I believe the phrase goes.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:25PM
You, on the other hand, are awesome.
OK, time to go.
SCM| 5.25.11 @ 12:27PM
Jewish history is full of stories of how they regularly turned away from Yahweh to worship false and foreign gods. That so many now worship Marxist principles should come as no surprise. God himself called them "stiff-necked" people who continually went their own, foolish way.
simon templar| 5.25.11 @ 3:02PM
Many years ago while reading the Old Testament something in the story bothered me..the whole story..the stiff necks, the complaining, the stubborness, the lack of belief when evidence to the contrary was right there in front of their face, the foolishness, etc.
It had a sound of familiarity. Then it occurred to me, this was the world's story, this was a mirror, this was me, man.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 5:02PM
Yeah, that's why the Old Testament still resonates...love your posts, Simon.
Ted Seeber | 5.25.11 @ 3:44PM
What Marxist principle, EXACTLY, is being worshiped here? I can't identify it.
figusja| 5.25.11 @ 1:06PM
The Left wing wackos will keep supporting the destruction of Israel. I say this should not be allowed. Due to the fact that Israel it's self is tied to the Christian faiths Psychological make up. I am far from a expert on the matter but based on the Bible. The state of Israel is protected by God. If this one state falls, the consequences are going to be staggering. Think about if Israel falls then our Bible is wrong. Then we question our God. Then we question ourselves. Then we question our faith. What else could be wrong in our beliefs? For this alone I say NO to the Left and the Muslims. At least the Israelis will allow all faiths to worship without being threatened by be-headings.
ABNCP| 5.25.11 @ 2:06PM
I was working in an SCI communications center at SAC Headquarters in 1972 when the King of Jordan let his Arab Legion loose on Arafat and his Palestinan thugs. After the 1967 ass kicking the Israels gave the Arab armys, Jordan had let Arfat and his goons settle in Jordan. Of course Arafat then tried to take over the country. Big mistake, the Arab Legion killed every one of them it could get their hands on. The rest fled to Beruit and we know the rest of that story. But for a couple of days at SAC we monitored real time broadcasts from some CIA assets there it was brutal. Too bad they didn't get them all.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 2:08PM
Agree, and my thanks for your service protecting me when I was 10 years old, ABNCP.
shipley130| 5.25.11 @ 3:36PM
What, exactly was the plan for the people that lived in the areas that were handed over as a Jewish state?
Al Adab| 5.25.11 @ 4:08PM
Citizenship and neighborliness as they have in Israel today. Those who left did so on their own volition, there were no deportations. Israel was attacked upon its birth by several Arab nations including Jordan which once owned the so called "west bank". They lost it in a war they began.
RCV| 5.27.11 @ 2:05AM
Al Adab: We don't need to sugarcoat the truth. As modern Israeli historians including Benny Morris have acknowledged, both sides including the Jews DID drive people of the other community from areas they were fighting over. It was a war for survival and land. Israel was attacked and it needed to consolidate its territory for the protection of its citizens. I don't think they need to apologize for that. Terrible attrocities did indeed occur, as happens in every war, our own Civil War being no exception. But I don't see Islamic countries offering compensation for the millions of Jews they drove out after Israel's founding, nor do I think Israel needs to do so either. If it hadn't been attacked, none of that misery and tragedy that followed would have happened.
Ted Seeber | 5.25.11 @ 3:42PM
What's Marx got to do with it?
I really don't understand. He was dead 75 years before this British/UN experiment to repatriate the Jews to Israel got underway.
If you mean secular Jews- SAY SO. Don't drag Marx into everything.
Nunya| 5.26.11 @ 9:11PM
Marx and his followers are fools. Trying to pretend that we can all be "equal" is folly. There are always those that are "more equal" than others, that's the way Marxism works. History has proven this, it's a failed policy that people apparently keep thinking that those before them "didn't do it right".
Please read "The Road to Serfdom". It is an excellent analysis of why Socialism and Marxism, simply cannot work without government control of EVERYTHING, and bureaucrats making life-and-death decisions. Marxism leads to mass murder. Every time it is tried.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 4:12PM
Yes, and they suffer more under their leaders and King Hussein, who has killed many more thousand of them than Israel has ever done.
Dr R, The Mote in Your Brother's Eye reference for our semi-literate friend here?
Petronius| 5.25.11 @ 4:15PM
Do the authority figures on this planet possess any folly greater than their emotional investments in their false predispositions?
Netanyahu knows the chips he is playing with are the lives of the citizens who elected him. Obama is devoted only to his image of himself. So he attempts to supplant his betters in pursuit of validation. His voters are no different. To them, any person who's life and work is guided by truth, logic, and especially virtue, must be destroyed to facilitate their own elevation and advancement of their agenda of rootless hedonism through the public subsidy of the deficiencies of all who are willfully non productive. It's about total reversal of the social food chain; bottom to top.
ABNCP| 5.25.11 @ 4:46PM
Thanks Occam's Tool. It was my honor. It was also my honor to serve in the finest Air Force and the finest Command in history. Today's USAF has far better technology but the men and women are still the best.
WilliamR| 5.25.11 @ 4:54PM
Ferrara, I've got news for ya, Israel started the six day war in 1967. If you don't even know that you don't have any business writing about the Middle East.
In a 1982 speech to the Israeli National Defense College, then-Prime Minister Menachem Begin said: “The Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that [Egyptian President] Nasser was about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.”
“I do not believe that Nasser wanted war…The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.” Rabin recognized that any country with good intelligence, like Israel, could ascertain that Egypt had no plans to wage war against Israel."
Of course Israel went on to attack the USS Liberty an unarmed spy ship in international waters killing 34 Americans and wounding 171. This indecent has never had a serious investigation.
Every President since Nixon in 1969 have asked the Israeli's not to build on the West Bank. What Obama said is nothing different than what the Reagan administration pushed.
This is a pathetic shameless article and I'm surprised the American Spectator would run it.
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 5:16PM
William R.,
Silly rabbit, don't you know that this is because the world is run by the Joooooooooooooooozzzzzzzzzzz!
WilliamR| 5.25.11 @ 5:31PM
The truth must upset you son. Because this crap Ferrara wrote is nothing but a bunch of Likudnik propaganda. Fiction.
The American Spectator should be ashamed of itself.
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 5:41PM
The Jooooooozzzzzzzz made me do it!
simon templar| 5.25.11 @ 5:53PM
Fiction? You should shut up.
WilliamR| 5.25.11 @ 6:05PM
You can't refute one thing. Israel did start the 1967 war. They did deliberately attack an unarmed United States Navy ship in international waters killing 34 sailors and wounding 171 more. This was an act of war. And every President since Richard Nixon has asked the Israelis not to build in the West Bank. All they do is stick their finger our eye. It is long past time to cut this piss ant country off. It has been nothing but a ball and chain around our neck.
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 6:25PM
William R.,
I can refute you.
Israel was about to be attacked, so they preemptively attacked, which is a defensive act.
The U.S.S. Liberty was mistakenly attacked by Israeli jets. It was an accident.
There, you have been refuted.
Have a nice day!
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 6:54PM
You're An Israel Firster Traitor Bastard Liar.
American Spectator readers Can Read About The U.S.S. Liberty Themselves.
http://www.rense.com/general39/pilot.htm
The U.S. Naval Ship, The U.S.S.Liberty was Deliberately attacked by several IAF aircraft, initially by two Mirage IIIs, employing cannon, rockets and bombs,[32] followed by two Dassault Mysteres carrying napalm.
The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and one civilian), & wounded 170 crew members.
Immediately preceding the attack, an Israeli pilot recognized Liberty as a U.S. ship and radioed this information to IDF headquarters. He was instructed to attack anyway. This dialogue was intercepted at the U.S. embassy in Beirut. Former U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter revealed the existence of this intercept in 1991.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 7:03PM
Compare These U.S.S. Liberty Web Sites And learn The Facts American Spectator Readers.
http://www.usslibertyveterans.org/
http://www.gtr5.com/
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 7:05PM
Compare this U.S.S. Liberty Web Site Also.
http://ussliberty.wordpress.com/
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 7:06PM
CINO Tim*/Skinflint Clint,
No one will click on your neo-nazi sites. Why?
Because the Joooooooozzzzzzzz won't let them!
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 7:04PM
CINO Tim*/Skinflint Clint,
Silly rabbit, it's because the Joooooozzzzzzz made me do it!
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 7:10PM
Interesting, how You, Israel Firster Little Nicky From The Detroit Suburbs, Laugh At The Slaughter Of U.S. Seamen By The IDF.
I Just Helped You To Expose Yourself To The American Spectator Readers.
American Spectator Readers Can Read The Facts For Themselves.
Carry On Israel Firster Traitor Bastard, Little Nicky.
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 7:16PM
CINO Tim*/Skinflint Clint,
Silly rabbit, I'm not laughing at those brave men.
I'm laughing at YOU!
I toast you, Skinflint, with the blood of Christian babies, of course, as we "Israel Firsters" are wont to do.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 7:27PM
Oh Yes You Are Israel Firster Traitor Bastard Little Nicky.
That Facts Of The Deliberate Israeli Slaughter Of Our U.S. Seamen Are Clear & indisputable By Any Objective American Patriots.
You Israel Firster Agendista Mistake American Spectator Readers For Dupable Fools, Which They Are Not.
The Truth Of The Israeli Slaughter Of Our U.S. Seamen Will Eventually Unfold In A Congressional Hearing, Which Has Been Disgracefully Long Overdue.
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 7:34PM
No there won't, Skinflint.
There will never be an investigation. Why?
Because the Jooooozzzzzzzz won't allow it!
Don't you know that the Joooooozzzzzz run everything?
Except Hollywood, which is run by the homos!
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 8:11PM
Once again, The Israeli Firster Traitor Bastard Little Nicky Is Laughing Over The Deliberate Slaughter Of U.S. Seaman By Israelis.
You Continue To Expose Yourself To American Spectator readers, Who Don't Think The Deliberate Slaughter Of U.S. seamen Is A Laughing matter.
You Try Laughing In Front Of Seal Team 6 Over This Slaughter Of Their Fellow Seamen & You May Get Your Traitor Ass Buried At Sea.
There Will Be An Eventual Congressional Hearing.
"Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. 'Pete' McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli, he was "lead pilot" in the attack. When he recognized the Liberty as flying the American flag he informed his headquarters, but was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested."
"A dual-citizen Israeli major has met with survivors to tell them that he was in an Israeli war-room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war-room knew that they were attacking an American ship, according to this Israeli major. After allegedly receiving threats, this source has since recanted these statements."
"However the then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon, Dwight Porter has confirmed the pilot's story, and revealed the pilot's protests (transmitted via radio) had already been monitored by U.S. intelligence stationed within his embassy in Lebanon. Ambassador Porter told the story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, and has also offered his testimony to US authorities, but claims that testimony has never yet been secured."
Nick| 5.25.11 @ 8:35PM
Again, I'm not laughing at those brave men, Skinflint.
I'm mocking you!
I would never make fun of anyone killed while serving this country. As someone who actually defended this nation, these heroes are fellow veterans.
They are dishonored by your lies.
By the way, they don't call it SEAL Team Six anymore, moron. Try joining the 21st century, dope!
Come! Join our American Zionist love fest!
I'll make a brisket.
Fairbanks99| 5.26.11 @ 10:54PM
I, a retired Navy Chief, 25 year veteran of the SSBN fleet, proudly flies an Israeli flag from my house, and wears an IDF fleece jacket at work every day. Count me in for the Zionist Lovefest. (I need to order some Vienna dogs!)
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:06PM
The Great Commission, as done by Clint!
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 8:18PM
There's The Other Traitor Bastard Israel Firster , Tool Job.
The Attack
"After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft overflights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft nine hours before the attack and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.
The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded. The ship, a $40-million dollar state-of-the-art signals intelligence platform, was later declared unsalvageable and sold for scrap."
The Cover Up
"Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact. Though administration officers continued individually to characterize the attack as deliberate, the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack. Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder.
In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed. The full text of the report can be found at http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf "
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 8:25PM
"On the Israeli side, the group of pro-Israel, anti-American critics of our story, while small, persists in launching loud, vicious ad hominem attacks on anyone who attempts to discuss the deliberateness of the attack. These anti-American apologists refuse to discuss the facts of the case. Instead, they rely on propaganda and charge anyone who questions the Israeli position with being antiSemitic.
For detailed and authoritative accounts of the power and influence of the pro-Israel lobby, please see The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy by Mearsheimer and Walt and The Pro-Israel Lobby by Edward Herman."
Thom| 5.25.11 @ 8:41PM
Clint,
Can you articulate any sort of rational reason Israel would willfully want to attack a member of the most powerful navy in the world at that time which was operating 25 miles off the Egyptian coast in the middle of an all-out war for which it was completely surrounded?
Can you articulate any reason rational or not why 6 months later when the Pueblo was attacked and taken off Peace loving North Korea’s coast in international waters and no war was started as a result?
How about an easy question for you to answer, can you tell us why the USS Vincennes, the most advanced anti-air platform on the planet launched an SM-1 at a peace loving Iranian Air Bus nine miles out rather than wait till it could visually ID the plane? Ignore the Iranian machine gun armed speed boats practicing high speed maneuvers around the Vincennes while the most powerful warship on the planet fired on them with those huge 5 inch guns….. without cause…….
Sometimes the whole truth of the matter it not what you find on a web site 44 years after the fact and is still classified at some levels. Yes the Israelis attacked a commercial ship rigged for AGI off the coast of Egypt that was flying an American flag. No one disputes that on either side of this matter. It is the why they attacked the Liberty that you don’t know and I suspect could care less. That why and the following loss of the Pueblo just six months later is why the US Navy stopped using unarmed civilian cargo ships for such missions. The Germans were quite successful at altering the appearance of their Raiders to allow them to get within range of their victims without being IDed as what they really were. Needless to say the US government at the time, who would that be there Clint?, accepted it culpability in the Liberty matter and the loss of the Pueblo just added an explanation mark to that.
Despite having the most advance anti air system on the planet we still shot down an unarmed Air Bus aircraft that was climbing not diving and very much not an F-14 as tagged and we’ve killed allies in the First Gulf war and Afghanistan because someone made a judgment call in the heat of battle that turned out to be wrong. Your political agenda wears a little thin whereas rational thought is concerned. This is just one example where you are blinded by your rage about something you really don’t know the truth about. But think you do….
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 9:25PM
"Intelligence analysts agree that they attacked because they feared we might learn something that they did not want the United States to know.
That could have been
1. The planned invasion of the Golan Heights which was set to start a few hours after Liberty's arrival in the area. When Liberty arrived, the invasion was postponed for 24 hours, Liberty was attacked, and the invasion took place the next day. Did they postpone the invasion until Liberty out of the way and unable to report on the war?
2. It is possible that they were afraid that Liberty might learn and report to the United States that Israeli forces were executing up to 1,000 Egyptian Prisoners of War at El Arish at the very moment that Liberty was just 13 miles off shore.
3. It is also possible that USS Liberty was attacked to prevent the ship from reporting a deliberate massacre of 14 Indian United Nations peacekeepers that took place in Gaza shortly before Israel's attack on USS Liberty. "
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 9:32PM
"What was Israel's motive for this act? The scheduling of the Israeli assault on the Golan Heights for 8 June was a move to defeat an intense effort in the United Nations to halt the war, a ceasefire having been scheduled for 9 June. Such pressure was also being applied by the U.S. Government. The IDF leaders were under pressure to acquire the Golan before the ceasefire was imposed, preferably without being labeled the aggressor (as in 1956 when Israel had colluded with Britain and France to attack Egypt). But with all the pressure to attack Syria, and after all the hurried preparations to do so, the Golan attack was suddenly called off within hours of its scheduled commencement. Why? Obviously, someone in the IDF leadership feared the Liberty might intercept some of the many signals then filling the air that would expose Israel's preparations for invasion. They might then be forced into a ceasefire before they conquered the coveted territory."
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 9:39PM
Do Your Homework, Israel Firster Traitor Bastard.
Aaaaand, The U.S.S.Liberty was attacked in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.
Thom| 5.25.11 @ 9:49PM
There are no bounds or limits created by so called “international waters” while operating in a declared war zone. That’s pure folly. Being close off the coast of an enemy combatant is not the way most people would define rational behavior if ones wants to stay out of a fight. Next you will be telling me that walking up to observe an ongoing brawl and getting beaten up for your trouble was an intelligent move. Only mentally ill people think that way.
Thom| 5.25.11 @ 10:00PM
"Do Your Homework, Israel Firster Traitor Bastard"
I don't have to. I lived during those times, I wore a US Navy uniforn not too long after this thus I have an edge here you don't have. What were you doing in 1967 Clint?
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 11:48PM
Yeah Ya Do Traitor Bastard Thommy Boy.
My Cousin Rich Was In The Navy In 1967.
Our Neighbor's Son Is A Contract Gunnery Instructor For The Navy Seals, after 22 Years as an Active Seal.
They Both Consider Scum Like You, As The Traitor Bastard Cowartd You Are.
Wanna Make Somethin' Of It, Puke?
Thom| 5.25.11 @ 9:43PM
That actual answer is none of these but you at least on the right track... it is what the Liberty was going to discover and put the entire Israeli operation in jeopardy that left little margin for error. Operating an unarmed AGI in the middle of an ongoing war we have no dog in off one of Israel’s enemy coast or off the coast of a nation we had no peace treaty with were not so gentle reminders of our own naïve policies at that time. The Israelis would not have attacked a dedicated US warship but a commercial vessel flying an American flag is subject to deception and they didn’t have time for the niceties of war by gentlemen rules. That actual operation the Israelis were keeping under wraps is not classified but you probably aren’t going to find it via “googling”.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 11:51PM
You're Full Of Crap Israel Firster Traitor Bastard Thommy Girl.
"Statement by survivor John Hrankowski:
We had been surveilled all morning and part of the afternoon by Israeli forces. They knew who we were. We heard them reporting over radio who we were and how we were sailing and where we were sailing. They saw the flag and everything else. We were in international waters.
At 2:00 the action started when we had just completed a general quarters drill. I had just come out or the engine room to get some fresh air when the firing started. That's when I took my shrapnel hit, nothing fantastic but pieces of shrapnel. I went back to the boiler room and prepared to start lighting off number one boiler to get steam to get out of there.
This persisted for probably 25 or 35 minutes with the aircraft rocketing us and hitting us with everything they had, napalm and cannon fire and after that there was a comparatively small lull. We heard that they were getting hit all over the place and we could see the torpedo boats moving in and firing torpedoes at us, and then one hit and put a 40 foot hole in the side of the ship and knocked all power off. "
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 12:01AM
No, you are full of it, Skinflint. You're making all of this up.
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:18AM
Tell Your Slandering Lies To The Surviving Seamen Of The Libert,y Little Israel Firster Coward Traitor Bastard Nicky.
They'll Spit In Your Coward Liar Face, Puke.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 12:24AM
No they wouldn't, Skinflint. They would love me and join our American Zionist love fest. And, we would all make fun of you.
So, stop making things up and embrace Zionism.
Skinflint...I am your father!
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 12:31AM
Oh Yes They Would Traitor Bastard Israel Firster Twerp Little Nicky From Detroit.
Go Try To Say Your Slandering Crap To Their Face Little Coward, Nicky.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 12:41AM
Boy....you sure told me! I sure did learn my lesson.
Your some kind of a word smith, you know that, Skinflint? It still doesn't change the fact that you're making all this up.
Come! Join the Great Jewish Conspiracy!
We get discount cards for Wal-Mart.
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 1:04AM
Uh Oh !
You're Gettin' Repetitively Boring Now.
Come On Little Pussy, Ya Gotta Try Harder Than That, Little Nicky.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 1:20AM
Actually, I don't have to try harder.
You are soooo easy!
Clint| 5.26.11 @ 2:28AM
Actually, Powder Puff, You're The Chairman Of The Bores.
simon templar| 5.25.11 @ 5:51PM
Hmmm. Just forgot to mention this little bitty detail about the day before the attack, William...
An army, greater than any force ever assembled in history in Sinai, had massed against Israel's southern frontier. Egypt had dismissed the United Nations forces which symbolized the international interest in the maintenance of peace in our region. Nasser had provocatively brought five infantry divisions and two armoured divisions up to our very gates; 80,000 men and 900 tanks were poised to move.
You also conveniently forgot about the two months of hostility against Israel leading up to this event.
WilliamR| 5.25.11 @ 6:07PM
You are delusional kid. Egypt sent two divisions into the Sinai. Not nearly enough to threaten Israel. Israel attacked because this war was about territorial expansion . Israel was the aggressor.
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:07PM
Incorrect, WilliamR. The Straits of Tiran had been closed. Israel had announced this as a casus belli.
You also forget the "We will kill Jews" propaganda of Nasser. He was also a Soviet client.
Thom| 5.25.11 @ 9:06PM
WilliamR,
If four guys with clubs surround you with clubs, threaten to kill you and you have a gun are you going to let them strike you first? Honest answer please. The Israeli preemptive strike concerned mainly air strikes to destroy the larger Arab air forces so that the Israeli Air Force could dominate the air and help control events on the ground where the Israelis were heavily outnumber in raw numbers of everything. If your answer to the above question is yes then you are advocating that an entire Nation commit suicide while reserving a right of self defense for yourself while denying it to others. A couple million in fact at that time.
simon templar| 5.25.11 @ 5:57PM
What Obama said is nothing different than what the Reagan administration pushed.
Still peddling this lie, William? Why don't you throw on Lincoln and Jefferson while you are at it. Oh, that's right, Israel did not exist then. No matter...history is written by the winners and the left wing revisionist, right? It is all just a narrative!
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:04PM
Straight of Tiran closed, which was warned as a casus belli. Nasser did it anyway. Casus belli, Egyptian action. Case closed.
Thanks for playing, William, and also for demonstrating why the Israelis need their current borders. The 1973 war was a first strike by Egypt because the israeli borderes were defensible.
Jeamar37| 5.25.11 @ 5:20PM
Ocam's Razor & Dr. Right--While your first few comments are usually interesting and for Am Spec usually rational, why don't you two exchange personal emails to carry on your personal conversations?
Occam's Tool| 5.25.11 @ 8:05PM
Sorry, Jean. Post more often and then tell me what to do---may be I'll listen---probably I won't, being stiffnecked.
cuban pete| 5.25.11 @ 8:40PM
I enjoy OR's & Dr.Right's "personal" exchanges. They are instructive.
If the Arabs lay down their arms there would be peace in the Middle East. If Israel disarmed it would cease to exist.
cuban pete| 5.25.11 @ 8:42PM
I meant OT, of course,sorry. I was thinking Occam's Razor.
ABNCP| 5.25.11 @ 6:57PM
William R. If you are going to post on this site please understand that most of us will not stand for the B.S. you and others like you want to put out!!! The Egyptian army in the Sinai was composed of, seven divisions plus 950 tanks, 1,100 APC's and 1,000 artillery pieces. You also do not seem to understand that on their other borders Israel had armys from Jordan, Syria and Lebanon poised ready to attack. Nasser was going to attack. He said so often. The U.N. like the cowards they are had removed the U.N. forces that were supposed to protect those borders in preperation for the Arab army's attack. Come on man grow up.
William R| 5.25.11 @ 9:35PM
I don't care what an idiot like you will stand for son. But here are the facts.
“I do not believe that Nasser wanted war…The two divisions he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”---Yitzhak Rabin IDF Chief of Staff Six Day War.
Thom| 5.25.11 @ 9:56PM
Nasser said after the fact he did not want war but he crossed a line that left Israel with no margin of error. People say the oddest things at times but massing an army on the border while the same is done on the other border by other Nations and having gross superiority of numbers of war making means makes one the aggressor regardless of who threw the first punch. Works that way on the school playground too and in a court of law.
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loulou| 5.25.11 @ 10:50PM
I predict Clint will have a stroke in the not too distant future. I guarantee the lunatic has out of contron hypertension.
Clint| 5.25.11 @ 11:54PM
Don't Worry About Me . loulou Sweetie Pie.
I Gym Train & Run Most Days.
RCV| 5.26.11 @ 2:18PM
So do most rodents.
Nick| 5.26.11 @ 11:49PM
RCV,
Ha-haaaaa!
Now that's funny, right there.
I don't care who you are.
Dave Trap| 5.25.11 @ 10:54PM
Dont bet on it, liberal Jews in NYC will vote for Obama in droves, they could care less about Israel.
ABNCP| 5.26.11 @ 1:16AM
Willy, everyone can have their own opinion but no one can make up their own facts and still remain believable. You are making yourself unbelievable pal. Here are the facts:
Egypt had 7 divisions consisting of over 100,000
troops in the Sinai prior to the start of the 1967 war. The Egytian order of battle was:
4 infantry divisions
2 armored divisions
1 mechanized division
They also had:
4 independent infantry brigades
4 independent armored brigades
950 tanks, 1,100 APC's and 1,000 artillery pieces
Syria had 75,000 troops on their border.
Jordan had 55,000 troops plus 300 tanks and
12 battalions of artillery.
The Arab's also had commitments from Iraq, Pakstian, Lebanon and the Saudi's
Willy if you can't or don't wish to educate yourself in modern military history please do not post because you just make yourself look stupid
weddingdress | 7.7.11 @ 5:24AM
So do most rodents.
RCV
Ha-haaaaa!
Now that's funny, right there.
I don't care who you are.