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Special Report
Geronimo and Osama
The Religious Left joins in the denunciations — without knowing too much about the story.
Some Indian groups and Religious Left groups are protesting that apparently the operation to kill Osama bin Laden was codenamed “Geronimo.”
“While we decry terrorism in any form, we refute the notion that our Native leaders, past and current, be paralleled in any way with persons who unashamedly destroy life,” complained the head of a United Methodist General Board of Church and Society Native American Task Force. “We are all articulating the disappointment, concern and frustration with the use of the name of this iconic Native American hero.”
Geronimo was a shrewd warrior who combated Mexican and U.S. military forces for decades. Whether he was a “hero” is open to question. He did “unashamedly destroy life,” including atrocities against civilians. (His defenders point out that Apaches also were on the receiving end of atrocities.) Mexicans and Americans at the time viewed him with some of the same dread and loathing more recently aimed at Osama bin Laden. Geronimo with his very few remaining warriors did not surrender until 1886, pursued by thousands of U.S. Army cavalry. It’s hard to see how his having prolonged a vicious and futile war helped his people.
During his nearly last quarter century of life after surrender, Geronimo sort of embraced Christianity at least for a time, largely accepted U.S. rule, and became a nationwide celebrity, despite or because of his former status as a brutal warrior and enemy of U.S. forces. He was even featured in Teddy Roosevelt’s 1904 inaugural parade. Presumably Osama bin Laden, had he survived as a captive, would never have ridden down Pennsylvania Avenue in an open vehicle.
Evangelical Left writer Brian McLaren, guru to the Emergent Church movement, was visiting Europe during Osama bin Laden’s death and fumed over the “Geronimo” codename, which “shocked, disgusted, dismayed, and sickened” him. McLaren chose to read into the codename a rich tapestry of sinister intent, backed by centuries of sordid imperialist history. “Are we still engaged in Westward Expansion (making our way from California to Hawaii and the Philippines, then to Southeast Asia and now to the Middle East)?” he wondered ominously. “Are we still cowboys hunting Indians? Are we still working out a narrative of Manifest Destiny? Has there been no acknowledgment in our government and our people of the holocaust we waged against Native Peoples, the land theft, attempted genocide, cultural imperialism, and outrageous injustice?” McLaren indignantly charged: “In the code-name Geronimo, has the US government made a ‘Freudian slip’ that reveals one of the dark and violent drives still at work in our national psyche?”
In Religious Left mythology, the U.S. is an endlessly and uniquely hegemonic power whose crimes began with the suppression of the original tribal peoples, for which we should endlessly seek atonement. As with many myths, there’s a bit of truth here. But this particular myth neglects to admit that the original tribal peoples were themselves perpetually warring against each other, and exterminating each other, many centuries before any European arrived. All nations and cultures everywhere were founded amid conquest and blood, for better or worse. While traditional Christians can readily acknowledge the sinfulness of all humanity, Religious Left utopians struggle with this admission, preferring to demonize impersonal systems: militarism, imperialism, capitalism, Western Civilization.
Even the distinguished British theologian and Church of England Bishop Tom Wright is not immune from this affliction. Thoroughly sensible and orthodox on theology, but often absurd politically, he often bemoans the supposed unique threat posed by the U.S. In a British op-ed, he speculated that the U.S. mission to kill Osama bin Laden was rooted in sinister “American exceptionalism” and “The Myth of the American Superhero and Captain America and the Crusade Against Evil.” He reluctantly granted the myth may have been “necessary in the days of the wild west.” But nowadays it “legitimises a form of vigilantism, of taking the law into one’s own hands, which provides ‘justice’ only of the crudest sort.” Actions like the strike on Osama bin Laden only “work,” Wright warned, when the “hero can shoot better than the villain.” But the villains’ friends may seek vengeance, which is why “proper justice is designed precisely to outflank such escalation,” he explained. Presumably “proper justice” would have been a cordial court trial for Bin Laden, though it’s unclear how a prolonged media circus around such a trial and decades long captivity would have avoided provoking “vengeance” from Bin Laden’s friends.
Proper justice in today’s world is difficult, Wright surmised, because the U.S. has portrayed the UN as “hapless,” as though the UN itself had not contributed to the impression. Wright concluded by wondering: “And what has any of this to do with something most Americans also believe, that the God of ultimate justice and truth was fully and finally revealed in the crucified Jesus of Nazareth, who taught people to love their enemies, and warned that those who take the sword will perish by the sword?” So Wright, who should know better, is seemingly at least a functional pacifist, who won’t grasp that Christianity has always taught that civil authorities are God’s instrument for wielding the sword against the likes of Bin Laden. As to American Exceptionalism, all great nations with the wherewithal have vigorously pursued their most wicked enemies. It took Wright’s own British nation 13 years to avenge the slaughter of General Charles Gordon at Khartoum with General Herbert Horatio Kitchener’s victory at Omdurman, after which Kitchener dug up the bones of Gordon’s tormentor, the self-professed Mahdi, and dumped them into the Nile, while reputedly keeping the skull for himself at least for a time.
Of course, according to myth, young Yale students, including President George W. Bush’s grandfather, supposedly dug up Geronimo’s skull for their famed Skull and Bones Society. Some Apaches, aided by the perpetually aggrieved Ramsey Clark, have sought its return. History can decide whether naming the Bin Laden operation after Geronimo was wise or even consequential. What is more noteworthy are the endless exertions of some Western church elites to avoid confronting Bin Laden’s brand of evil while constructing endless fantasies to demonize America.
About the Author
Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (120) | Leave a comment
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Brian Mc| 5.13.11 @ 6:32AM
Great job, Mark. Your dissemination of "traditional Christians" vs. the religious left is spot-on. The left's myth that 'bad' Indians were only renegades incited by evil white gun-traders with fire water to close the deal who had strayed from their tree-hugging brethren seeking utopia never ceases to nauseate me. The documented narrative contained in "The Frontiersman" by Allan W. Eckert is an eye-opening must-read for those interested in your remarks concerning cultural clashes down through the centuries and evil on a personal vs. national level.
John Daniel| 5.13.11 @ 6:42AM
It starts at the beginning...the indigenous people of North America were at one with nature in the sylvan glade and at peace with their fellow persons but for the intercession of the awful Europeans....
Bill| 5.13.11 @ 12:22PM
They were stewards of the earth, so that made it OK when they ran entire herds of buffalo off buffalo jumps to the point where there were so many dead buffalo they only took the tongues. That was getting rid of the excess population, no doubt.
Or when the early Indians killed off entire species such as the dire wolf, the giant beaver, the North American sloth, and several other species. That was natural selection at work.
And OK when they set fire to the prairie and burnt Nebraska-sized areas, killing off the snakes, ground squirrels, prairie dogs, coyotes, wolves, deer, antelopes, etc. The ash was good for the fertility of the land that they never cultivated.
Pam| 5.13.11 @ 1:12PM
You obviously have failed to study history and archeological evidence that repudiates every word you have offered here.
1) Native Americans never ran 'entire' buffalo herds off cliffs and collected only tongues. They selectively killed the buffalo using every part of the animal and gave thanks in prayers for being able to feed and clothe their families. They always took only what they needed so as to preserve for a later need.
2) The "early" or even "later" American Indian did not kill off an entire species of any sort.
3) The fires to the prairies were set in controlled burns to prevent massive unexpected fires. This is where our own firefighters learned the practice. Also American Indians were wide and vast farmers in addition to being hunters. They cultivated large farm areas, even, rotating crops.
These uneducated declarations you have made is exactly the type of slipshod thinking that led to our own government prejudging and slaughtering entire villages, including women, children, babies and the elderly.
Our own American Indian Holocaust.
In addition, the writer of this article is using his 'theological' musings to represent his own world views rather than come to a fuller understanding of why American Indians of most nations are offended by Geronimos name being used.
Geronimo was resisting the occupation and theft of his homeland and way of life.
Read More and verify the facts.
Facts know no politcal party and do not care how we feel or what we want.
Facts are simply facts. (They are what they are)
c. j. acworth| 5.13.11 @ 6:12PM
A facinating book on the subject is "1491 New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus" by Charles C. Mann. And the facts, Pam are that at least on occasion the Paleo-indians did indeed run entire herds of buffalo off of cliffs, though weather they actually drove any species to extinction is not clear. The indians were not saints, and they learned how to mold and shape the environment to suit themselves, while keeping the plant and animal species they desired around and actually enriching the land by their interventions which were massive in scope. As Mann makes clear, it is possible that huge tracts of the Amazon basin were actually created by the native inhabitants thousands of years ago, and are anything but "virgin" forest. They were shaped by the hand of Man. As I say the book is full of facinating stuff that I sure never heard in school.
Pam| 5.13.11 @ 9:44PM
C.J. Thank you for your thoughtful comments on this subject, however, I, like others in the community, do no entirely agree with Mr. Mann's theories on paleo-indians and their interactions with other species.
It has been accepted that these early tribes created diversions to run buffalo off of cliffs to kill them for food, clothing, etc. This, to us in the community, is essentially a fact; however, it has never been accepted as a fact that it was even close to an entire herd.
As for farming and land cultivation, please look to Corn, Squash (all types) tomatoe, most types of beans, chocolate, etc. American Indian Tribes introduced us to these foods and they, along with Native Companies grow and supply over half of the food you and I eat every day.
Over 562 Federally Recognized Sovereign Indian Nations exist today within our borders and many of them still cultivate the land.
As for the Tar Pits; that is still 'up in the air' as to what the true story is. Many have differing views and theories on this as well.
As for the Smithsonian, even with the new American Indian Museum, most tribes do not place much confidence in them. Their historical information is incomplete and they have suffered their own difficulties, resignations and reassignments since they opened.
Yes indeed we have a challenging past.
Allow the facts to speak for themselves. Not theories and suppositions based on ones' world views.
We do not defend a position, we simply try to state the facts.
Sometimes they are lovely, sometimes they are ugly, but, they are always enlightening.
Jive Bomber| 5.14.11 @ 2:57AM
Howdy Pam - Come on out to Montana and I'll show you the Ulm Pishkun, a cliff where buffalo were killed for centuries. The earth at the foot of this cliff consists of more splintered bone than it does of dirt and digs show compacted bison bone well over ten feet deep.
And.......That didn't happen by killing bison in ones and twos.
Now, this is the real deal and you just have to face that fact. If not, you're no better than one of those arm chair "experts" who only read books that won't challenge their assumptions.
But then that describes most people who fancy themselves an authority on American Indians.
Sorry, American Anthro 101 doesn't cut it here.
John Daniel| 5.14.11 @ 7:49AM
So, early Americans were - not unlike early Europeans - human beings...some good some bad, capable of any variety of conduct....
Pam| 5.14.11 @ 9:09PM
Good evening Jive Bomber,
You are absolutely correct about Ulm Pishkun, which is the largest Buffalo Jump and was apparently utilized for around two thousand years or so.
However, it seems you misread my post. I did not indicate that bison were killed in one's and two's. My point was that the early (and late) American Indians did not kill entire herds at a time.
My apologies if my post looked to indicate otherwise.
I would add, for another 'poster' that when solid evidence is 'interpreted', a theory has been established.
There are times when interpretation (theory) is supported and other times it is not.
I would certain not insist you accept my comments at face value.
Thank you for this discourse.
P..
BruceBerger| 5.14.11 @ 1:24PM
Pam,
I too have read 1491. I find it interesting that you refer to his "theories" while you want us to accept what you say as fact.
Trinacria| 5.14.11 @ 10:13PM
Quite interesting to observe Pam's approach - admonish the rest of us by preaching to us about the vital importance of accepting the facts, and then when a fact is presented that isn't consistent with her views, she dismisses it by claiming that she doesn't accept it. Same intellectually bereft crap practiced by the global warming cooks...
simon templar| 5.15.11 @ 10:47AM
That is the basic rub. It never ceases to amaze me how people continually either make the subject an evil savage or a virtual saint. Whether it is Columbus, native peoples, the founding fathers, the churches, and on and on. If your 'Facts' do not line up with their opinions well then you are a crazed apologizing hater of some sort. The rest of us know the world is a very complex, strange, and often contradictory place where people have both positive and negative characteristics and there seems to always be two sides of a story. That does not seem to stop the others from historical revision to suit their personal political agendas in the present. If the facts do not fit the agenda then make up new ones. Of course, today we have lost a great deal of respect for the truth and editorial oversight in the publishing industry so it is always easy to find a book tailored to your political agenda.Thus, the need to do extensive research on a subject, check references and citations, look at newspaper accounts, etc. to get a more accurate account.
Pam| 5.16.11 @ 1:55AM
President Obama does not make mistakes or miscalculations, he is not like ordinary men.
I love to inhale the jenkem he produces, ambrosia.
stmichrick| 5.13.11 @ 8:38PM
The plight of the American Indian is nothing new in the clash of cultures throughout history.
I recently visited the Smithsonian Indian museum and there was nothing more enlightening there after the 'one with nature' theme. No evidence that one culture had the moral high ground or how the tribes clashed before the Europeans showed up.
Lets clear the air and smoke the pipe.
Frekki| 5.13.11 @ 8:38PM
You're an idiot. The first humans on this continent exterminated every animal above 150 kilograms. Go to the Le Bria Tar Pits and learn something.
Frekki| 5.13.11 @ 8:40PM
Sorry, Pam is the self deluded idiot.
Slingshot| 5.13.11 @ 11:08PM
Read "The Ecological Indian: Myth and History" by
Shepard Krech III. The only reason Indians didn't do major damage to the ecology is that there weren't enough of them. Also read "The Commerce of the Prairies" by Josiah Gregg, who lived for a time with Plains Indians and described their ways. The starry-eyed "Pam" above might want to read about Indian men disciplining their wives with clubs. The cult of the Noble Savage will never die, for there will always be Pams.
nina in ma| 5.14.11 @ 2:01PM
Hmm, I would take the use of Geronimo's name as a compliment and think they should be proud to associate catching UBL with courage displayed by Geronimo. He was a warrior of great courage to go up against so many with no chance to win Well, that's how I think of it anyway. They were by no means a gentle people but who were in the past? Survival and using the environment as needed, taking slaves from other tribes, while we may think of as aborrhant, it was a way of life back then just as (shush...) slavery in the south was. As people grow and achieve more knowledge, these seemingly barbaric ways change and hopefully become unnecessary for survival.
KyMouse| 5.16.11 @ 11:47AM
"Native Americans" often killed far more buffalo than they needed, believing that the survivors would warn other buffalo to leave the area before they, too, were killed.
Stan| 5.16.11 @ 3:57AM
It's been documented that buffalo would drive themselves over cliffs. Didn't need any help from Indians.
SC Mike| 5.13.11 @ 6:53AM
They used “Geronimo” as the codename because of trademark and copyright issues associated with their first choice, Tinkerbelle.
Dale| 5.16.11 @ 4:23PM
Priceless.
Mike Hawk| 5.13.11 @ 6:54AM
With the Oborg, had we captured OBL, Obama being what he is, bin Laden may well have ridden in an inaugural parade if Obama won re-election. It would be a gesture to show the Jihadi world he has no animosity toward them.
JimH| 5.13.11 @ 8:11AM
Of course, the Romans would parade captured enemy leaders prior to publicly executing them.
Bill| 5.13.11 @ 12:25PM
The English placed the heads of the people they were fighting on pikes along the walkway on London Bridge right up to the 18th Century.
The Turkish Army in the Korean War put the heads of enemy soldiers on stakes placed along the wire of their POW camps as a message to their other POWs.
cuban pete| 5.13.11 @ 4:59PM
They also put the heads of Korean orphans they caught stealing from their billets on stakes.
Skippy| 5.14.11 @ 6:35PM
Sounds like a reasonable solution to the youth gang problem.
Margie| 5.13.11 @ 12:33PM
Maybe that's what they're saving the body for. A nice spiffy ride through Obama's next inaugural parade.
That is, unless we get our acts together and vote Republican.
Dee See| 5.13.11 @ 7:07AM
Speaking of the utterly sinister, China opium
fortune founded, funded and maintained
'Skull and Bones' ----get a load of billionaire Jolly Jim
Rogers on FOX News putting his giggly spin on the greatest
TREASON op. in history ---the bankster-Globalist
sellout and set-up of the MOST awesomely genocidal regime history has ever seen ---ACROSS the Pacific.
You know the place, it's just beyond Fukishima...
Trinacria| 5.14.11 @ 10:17PM
Are you high?
Clint| 5.13.11 @ 7:16AM
They used "Geronimo" because Obama nixed "Tarbaby".
Kevin Dunn| 5.13.11 @ 7:21AM
Of course Geronimo committed atrocities. It was an atrocious period - like, one might say,almost any other. What these idiots refuse to realise is that most of human history is hard and brutal. Civilization is precariously guarded today by hard men, and thank God we have them! I seriously believe that many on the religious Left have some form of mental illness, that they cann0t see this.
Mike D.| 5.13.11 @ 7:52AM
Exactly right, the strong defeat the weak, thats the way of anything in life. If a million Aztecs could not hold their country against 300+ Spaniards then their fate was sealed. Of course, one could point to the blood fued that the Iroquois had with the Hurons and nearly drove the Hurons to extinction. Indian tribes had intertribal warfare throughout their history, nothing new there or anywhere else in history. The religious left is as loony as the rest of the leftists who base their concepts,beliefs and morals on mentally induced utopian fantasies that comforts no one other than themselves.
Kilgore Trout| 5.13.11 @ 12:27PM
He CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!
You WANT me on that wall,
you NEED me on that wall!
cuban pete| 5.13.11 @ 5:01PM
Kilgore,did you order the Code Red?
PCC| 5.15.11 @ 8:19PM
"You're g-ddamn right he did!"
martin j smith| 5.13.11 @ 7:50AM
WHEN OUR TROUPS GO AFTER TERRORIST I SAY; GERONIMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Louis Jenkins| 5.13.11 @ 8:17AM
Most likely not a word would have been said by the left if Seal Team Six had used "Geooooorge Buuuush!" Now they're defending Geronimo like he's the Christ Child. There's many more important things to argue about these days, and I doubt Geronimo would spin in his grave, after all, his legend is alive and well in the art of war.
SpiralArchitect| 5.13.11 @ 11:52AM
Whatever the name, perhaps praise allah aside, would draw criticle attention from the 'excellent people' on the left.
Ken (Old Texican)| 5.13.11 @ 8:34AM
I think "Geronimo" was an inside joke among the military.
In a classic war film, the hero yells Geronimo jumping out of an airplane on a parachute attack.
The term has been a joke ever since.
Red Ryder| 5.13.11 @ 12:48PM
The standard joke when I was in the U. S. Army was that "Geronimo" was a code word for "Who the Hell pushed me?"
kerry| 5.13.11 @ 8:45AM
I guess I'm offended in a way that Obama used Geronimo for OBL. Geronimo is an American symbol of toughness and leadership. I don't think scum terrorists deserve that elevation.
USSAlabama| 5.13.11 @ 9:17AM
Why not use 'MLK' or 'George Washington'?
"Tinkerbelle" had trademark issues? Why not just call him "Fairy"?
Occam's Tool| 5.13.11 @ 11:31AM
I think "Tinkerbelle's" copyright issues was a joke. Honestly, if they called the operation "Kinky Friedman and the Texas Jewboys," that would have been fine by me. They got the bastard.
Bill| 5.13.11 @ 9:17AM
Geronimo was known as a wily and elusive enemy to both the Mexicans and the Americans. That's probably why the name "Geronimo" suggested itself. On the other hand, I was under the impression that code names for U.S. military missions were chosen using some sort of random selection process.
Finally, the word "Geronimo" was used by the U.S. airborne forces because of an apocryphal story that the famous Test Platoon had a belief that parachute jumping was so frightening that it would strike a person dumb. One of the fledgling paratroopers insisted that he was not so frightened that he would be silent, and he hollered "Geronimo!" when he made his first jump. He recounted that the word he used was just the first word that popped into his mind, and had nothing to do with Indians or anything. He might just as easily hollered "Moxie!" or "Whoosiwhatsie!"
So I doubt that the use of the word "Geronimo" for the bin Laden mission has any real significance, much less a racist significance.
A. C. Santore| 5.13.11 @ 11:51AM
You're almost right when you say that "On the other hand, I was under the impression that code names for U.S. military missions were chosen using some sort of random selection process."
That was, indeed, the practice for a long time, until some years ago some wag decided to use specifically-chosen code names to "glamorize" the action.
It now makes for silly code names and silly objections.
SpiralArchitect| 5.13.11 @ 11:55AM
And more fodder for writers of political articles and their follers.
blackwatch| 5.15.11 @ 7:51PM
I guess "Operation: Kill that Fucker" wouldn't look so good on a tee-shirt?
Yep it was a marketing decision....
Darcy | 5.13.11 @ 9:23AM
OMG, will these smug academy pseudo-aristocrats ever shut up? Reminds me of the Zinnster starting his book with an intemperate, snooty attack on Samuel Morison. Hey Howard: Morison's book on CC is incomparably richer and more nuanced than anything found in your self-promoting leftist genocide screed. People are complicated. Get over it and stop admiring yourself in the mirror! When, oh, when, will we ever get back to context and leave behind this plague of self-preening radicals with their bedtime fairy tales and mind-numbing rhetoric?
Occam's Tool| 5.13.11 @ 11:32AM
Samuel Eliot Morison kicked incredible ass as a historuan.
Occam's Tool| 5.13.11 @ 11:32AM
"historian."
Chalkdust| 5.13.11 @ 9:24AM
..and they wonder why church attendance has dribbled away to almost nothing. Now we hear the mid-level sexual deviants of the holy cloth have taken exception to Congressman Ryan's budget plan. Besides taking our metaphorical hand and guiding to the hereafter, they have decided to hold seminars in budget planning in the "here".
I sometimes wonder why so many crack-pots with delusions of grandeur gravitate to the pulpit as means to make a living?
Finally..... If Obama happens to win reelection in 2012, I'm very sure he'll have the effigy of OBL riding in the victory parade open top, town-car next to him. "Geronimooooo !!!"
Trinacria| 5.14.11 @ 10:32PM
Interesting, isn't it? Seventy-nine catholic college professors sign a letter instructing the house speaker on foundational catholic doctrines like "distributive justice" (I assure you that you will find no such term in the bible nor the works of the doctors of the church), claiming that their motivation was pure and entirely unrelated to political ideology. And yet, quite curiously, the same individuals who are purely motivated by their faith to instruct the current speaker on made-up doctrine felt no such compulsion to issue a public letter to our previous speaker instructing her on the church's position on fundamental issues like the right to life. Wolves in sheeps' clothing....
Trinacria| 5.14.11 @ 10:32PM
Interesting, isn't it? Seventy-nine catholic college professors sign a letter instructing the house speaker on foundational catholic doctrines like "distributive justice" (I assure you that you will find no such term in the bible nor the works of the doctors of the church), claiming that their motivation was pure and entirely unrelated to political ideology. And yet, quite curiously, the same individuals who are purely motivated by their faith to instruct the current speaker on made-up doctrine felt no such compulsion to issue a public letter to our previous speaker instructing her on the church's position on fundamental issues like the right to life. Wolves in sheeps' clothing....
Trinacria| 5.14.11 @ 10:32PM
Interesting, isn't it? Seventy-nine catholic college professors sign a letter instructing the house speaker on foundational catholic doctrines like "distributive justice" (I assure you that you will find no such term in the bible nor the works of the doctors of the church), claiming that their motivation was pure and entirely unrelated to political ideology. And yet, quite curiously, the same individuals who are purely motivated by their faith to instruct the current speaker on made-up doctrine felt no such compulsion to issue a public letter to our previous speaker instructing her on the church's position on fundamental issues like the right to life. Wolves in sheeps' clothing....
Melvin| 5.13.11 @ 9:25AM
Maybe they could have used....."BARNY FRANK."
Bill| 5.13.11 @ 9:56AM
How about "Raisuli!"
Nah, just doesn't have that ring to it, does it?
Melvin| 5.13.11 @ 10:28AM
This might work. "Barny Frank, El Raisuli, Lord of the Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac, Sultan to the Lobbyists , Last of the Corrupt Congressmen."
A minor modification from the Wind and the Lion.
Teaghan| 5.13.11 @ 11:11AM
Oh Marvin, I seriously doubt he's the last.
Groad| 5.13.11 @ 9:35AM
Do these (__!__)s know that the good guys flew in aboard Apache Helicopters?? Liberals have no sense of reality. Too much spare time so they have to go looking for things to be offended by no matter how trivial.
Bill| 5.13.11 @ 9:47AM
The mission was carried by SEALs in modified Blackhawk helicopters, called "Nighthawk" helicopters because they were modified for stealth flight. Not Apaches.
Bill| 5.13.11 @ 9:48AM
But of course "Blackhawk" is an Indian name, too. Abraham Lincoln fought in the Blackhawk War.
simon templar| 5.13.11 @ 10:54AM
Exactly! These are postitive connotations of toughness, bravery, and strength. Tomahawk missiles anyone? We really need to stop apologizing and tell these communists, liberals, and progressive to shut up!
Bill| 5.13.11 @ 9:40AM
By the way, "Geronimo" is the Spanish word for "Jerome." It's a white man's term and therefore it's perfectly OK for white men to use it.
Geronimo's Apache name, phonetically rendered in Roman text, was "Goyathlay." So using the name "Geronimo" is perfectly fine. Certainly by the painstaking, niggling, leftist standards of the day.
PCC| 5.15.11 @ 8:24PM
"Jerome" just doesn't have the same ring to it. Maybe "Slobodan Milosevic" instead? Just a thought.
TvChalk | 5.13.11 @ 9:42AM
There is no Osama. He is not exist.
Gasman| 5.13.11 @ 9:56AM
Unless you repent and acknowledge the Catholic church as the true church you will rot in hell.
Eric Damon| 5.13.11 @ 10:29AM
I pray that your comment here was a joke, I really do. Because if not, and you believe what you wrote you are in a world of trouble.
The Scripture does not tell men to repent and acknowledge one denomination as the way to heaven, because only Jesus can get you there. He is the gate, the path, and the only way to get to the Father is through Him...not any church. Putting your faith in any church to save your soul is the most dangerous thing you can do, because The Church, the Bride of Christ consists of the baptized body of believers, be they Methodist, Orthodox, Baptist or what have you. There is no man created organization that can save your immortal soul...only Jesus can do that for you. Not the pope, not a rabbi, and not a preacher.
Just Jesus!
Margie| 5.13.11 @ 12:37PM
Why, how DARE you, Eric?! :^)
nina in ma| 5.14.11 @ 2:22PM
Yikes! Guess I know where I'm going! Question - you pray and kneel before "statues", is that not idolatry? Do I need a third person to confess my sins to God? I think he can hear me without going into a confessional.
Don L| 5.13.11 @ 10:10AM
I can't wait for Obama to address this very challenging political issue. Perhaps he will just tell those native -Americans to shut up, get back on the reservation and remember, "I won?"
SpiralArchitect| 5.13.11 @ 12:04PM
Don't hold your breath, he is too busy playing dodgeball.
da monk| 5.13.11 @ 10:13AM
This article can be simply described as: "Making a mountain out of a mole hill" Please tell me the importance of this discussion?
Teaghan| 5.13.11 @ 11:13AM
No importance, just fun.
Don L| 5.13.11 @ 10:13AM
Now it all makes sense - Geronimo is the issue that's behind the move to make Arizona into two separate states (or is it the two free democrat senators that come with the prize?)
Anthony| 5.13.11 @ 10:23AM
This is just more of I'm bored out of my mind P.C. bull**** from the cozy and pampered left. The good news is, the Obozo Depression will hit America like no other, and it's coming like a runaway train.
Perhaps when people are actually starving, and we're close, with 1 in 5 Americans with "food insufficency" issues, thank you Barry Obozo, and living 20 to a house in abandoned forclosed homes, leftism will finally die from a lethal dose of reality.
The only way to shake this P.C. idiocy from the fuzzy minds of leftists is to wack them upside the head good and hard.
Imagine an entire nation doing its own version of "Survival" for real, not for made for T.V. consumption.
C Smith| 5.13.11 @ 10:43AM
The Jerusalem Post a few years ago, identified Brian McLaren and one of the three most prominent evangelical critics of Israel. Apparently he doesn't have a problem with terrorists though.
simon templar| 5.13.11 @ 10:49AM
This is another idiotic, left wing distraction that really should not be given a response. Has anyone even thought of asking the military why they code named this operation as such? Usually these operations are named not after the enemy or target of aggression but rather after a positive conotation or reference to something positive in our history or culture. The use of the name Geronimo is not a negative. Correct me if I am wrong but I remember using this as a kid when 'taking the hill' and playing games in the field. I remember it as a positive...a sign of victory and bravery. By the way did not the Hollywood left make a film about him a few years ago telling the story of his resistance?
Occam's Tool| 5.13.11 @ 11:34AM
Aren't they chosen randomly?
simon templar| 5.13.11 @ 2:44PM
Not sure what, 'chosen randomly means." I would think they were using the name in a positive way and it had some meaning to them, like toughness, strength, victory, etc. I am not sure who the hell made the association that this was a code name for Bin Laden??? If this is true then somebody needs a serious history lesson.
Josh| 5.13.11 @ 11:20AM
Lets see the code name was Geronimo not Kill Geronimo. What if they used the code Geronimo because hes was a skilled warrior and that to pull of the mission would take skill in the way Geronimo would had. That is how I think it was intended
Ore Gone| 5.13.11 @ 3:46PM
Thanks Josh! That is exactly the context I have used Geronimo in since I was a kid playing cowboys and indians. As children we thought he was the most badass character you could be and it was always hard to find kids that wanted to be the cowboys.
Mike 3/505| 5.13.11 @ 11:35AM
Are we still engaged in Westward Expansion (making our way from California to Hawaii and the Philippines, then to Southeast Asia and now to the Middle East)?" he wondered ominously."
I'd be OK with that.
Bill| 5.13.11 @ 12:14PM
It's interesting that you mention that. I guess I'd tend to agree (or could easily be persuaded) that it's the United States's manifest destiny to bring republicanism to the world; after all, what's their objection to us trying to do that? "We will have a popular government that's anarchic, tyrannical or totalitarian - republican forms of government be damned"?
Daniel| 5.13.11 @ 12:49PM
Being a fifth generation Arizonan, my family emigrated twice to Arizona in the midst of the apache wars. The apaches as guerilla fighters had no peer, then or now, and lived to make war on other tribes or peoples and especially loved killing Mexicans. an Apache could not marry without rewarding his future father-in-law the dessicated penis of an enemy. The SEALS, indeed, are honoring a warrior tradition, despite the howlings of the liberal jackels.
Trinacria| 5.14.11 @ 10:43PM
"The apaches as guerilla fighters had no peer, then or now."
If by "guerrilla fighters" you mean fat, drunk, dirt poor, gambling addicted wards of the state I totally agree
Ned| 5.13.11 @ 1:13PM
I am certainly not part of the Christian or any other left, but I think the use of Geronimo was inappropriate. Regardless of appropriateness of his tactics or the length of his fight, Geronimo was fighting in defense of his people and way of life. OBL was working to impose the slavery of islam on the west. It gives me a very bad taste to suggest that the two had anything important in common. I assume whoever selected the name didn't think of it this way and are therefore deserving of a bit of slack.
simon templar| 5.13.11 @ 2:38PM
The Left made the equation and association between the two. Maybe we should rename the missiles and helicopters because some jack ass liberal says it is racist or some other stupid insane and politically correct manipulation. Mayer we should stop the Left from defining the narrative....maybe, just once.
nina in ma| 5.14.11 @ 2:18PM
LOL! Maybe we should name them after flowers or desserts! That should strike fear in our enemies!
Soljer Blue| 5.13.11 @ 10:03PM
It should be pointed out that the war cry -- for that is what it was meant to be -- was used during WWII by the airborne divisions in many of their combat jumps. They also shaved their heads in what we would now call a "Mohawk" or "Iroquois" cut. These were intended to convey agressive fighting, terror to an enemy, and to raise the user's adrenaline. In no way was it meant to be a derogatory use of the great warrior's name. I rather suspect the same reasoning was true on the part of SEAL Team Six, as they undertook their mission to take down Osama.
Autoacct628| 5.13.11 @ 2:12PM
I, personally, welcome a conversation with anyone who objects to "Geronimo" being used as a codename for the op....I'd patiently explain to the fool that it is just 4 silly little syllables, and hardly worthy of getting their pink knickers in a twist over. I'd explain that we have a great deal of larger, more ominous, more serious issues to deal with, rather than wasting our time on this item of nearly microscopic importance. I'd speak slow, and use small words, and explain that by focusing on the trivial, they were in fact trivializing themselves by not filtering their sensibilities by looking to larger issues. I'd ask them to consider that the greater good was advanced, and express my opinion that they seem to be whimpering unpatriotically in their metaphorical corners, instead of celebrating the win with the rest of the adults. I'd ask them to temper their enthusiasm for their pet issue with happiness that justice was, in fact, done for the families of the 9/11 victims and that their insouciant whining detracted from the solemnity of their closure. I'd ask them to stop being self-righteous, fatuous a-holes.
And if they didn't agree, I'd properly kick the crap out of them.
fmm| 5.13.11 @ 3:35PM
Don't even have to read this article as all of this complaining by indians is ridiculous. Most organizations which have used indian names or references for their activities, such as college nicknames and mascots, did so out of respect, not ridicule. I have always wondered why, since most indian societies were primitive and ruthless and not one of them ever produced anything worthy of respect.
Margie| 5.13.11 @ 5:19PM
Geronimoooo!
I like what President George (GW) Bush had to say:
When asked by forum moderator Melissa Lee of CNBC how he felt upon learning the news, Bush said he was "not overjoyed," explaining that the campaign to track down the 9/11 mastermind was done not "out of hatred but to exact judgment."
The development is ultimately a victory for the American people, he said.
"The guy is dead. That is good," Bush said of bin Laden. "Osama's death is a great victory in the war on terror. He was held up as a leader."
"The intelligence services deserve a lot of credit. They built a mosaic of information, piece by piece," he said, claiming no credit for himself.
"I met SEAL Team Six in Afghanistan. They are awesome, skilled, talented and brave," he added. "I said, 'I hope you have everything you need. One guy said, 'We need your permission to go into Pakistan and kick ass.'"
Bush said U.S. foreign policy needs to continue to promote the ideas of democracy and freedom as a way to combat global terrorism.
"The long-term solution is to promote a better ideology, which is freedom. Freedom is universal," Bush said. "People who do not look like us want freedom just as much. The relatives of [former Secretary of State]Condoleezza Rice over 100 years ago wanted freedom. It is only when you do not have hope in a society that you join a suicide bomber team."
He gets it. HAWKS R US, baby.
Ken (Old Texican)| 5.13.11 @ 6:34PM
Margie,
thanks for the quotes....you gorgeous, hour-glass Israel Firster, you.
If you were not so lovely, I could hear you better though.
Remind Vick how lucky he is to have you in his life.
(smile)
Margie| 5.13.11 @ 7:23PM
Thank YOU, sir.
Now basking in the fresh air & sunlight of your kind words.
Vic says howdy, he is still working on reading that book you recommended, The Golden Parachute. And I'm going to make sure he calls you when he's done with it!
:^).
Nick| 5.14.11 @ 12:37AM
Margie,
You never responded to my comments, in the Kephas/Rock discussion of ours. I'm really interested in your thoughts.
Here is the link again:
http://spectator.org/blog/2011.....y#comments
Margie| 5.14.11 @ 1:51AM
Nick,
Hi! Happy to see you, I noticed you haven't posted lately as much.. or at all?
I just went over there and added a comment but it wasn't about Peter and the Rock.
But it was proving that Is. 22:22 is talking about Jesus.
I am doing some researching of my own into the Aramaic/Greek issue and will get back to you. You may remind me again if I drift. Sorry I let it go this long.
Nick| 5.15.11 @ 12:46AM
Margie,
No need to apologize. I just wasn't sure if you had lost track. I do that all the time, when I post comments in multiple threads, over several days. I forget what I said, and, to whom. It gets confusing, ya' know?
Thank you for your thoughtful consideration and reply. I have enjoyed this conversation because it gets me reading more Scripture than I otherwise would. And, I always end up learning something new! So, thank you for that also.
I was going to post my reply on Isaiah 22 here, but, I think I'll post it in the other thread. Just to keep them all together. If you would prefer I post future replies in this thread, let me know.
God Bless!
Margie| 5.15.11 @ 11:32AM
Hi Nick,
Let's stick with that thread so it doesn't distract. Perhaps others can join, but not to assault me. Nick and I are having an adult conversation, thanks.
stmichrick| 5.13.11 @ 8:41PM
The American Indian should be flattered that we used the term Geronimo in a successful rais on our enemies.
All kinds of Brands | 5.13.11 @ 9:48PM
What a fun pattern! It's great to hear from you and see what you've sent up to. All of the projects look great! You make it so simple to this.Thanks!
Soljer Blue| 5.13.11 @ 9:52PM
"Presumably Osama bin Laden, had he survived as a captive, would never have ridden down Pennsylvania Avenue in an open vehicle."
Given the tenor of our current administration, one has to wonder.
C Smith| 5.14.11 @ 2:19AM
"Has there been no acknowledgment in our government and our people of the holocaust we waged against Native Peoples, the land theft, [and] attempted genocide..." McLaren indignantly charged. Yet he voices no concern regarding the land theft of Israel's West Bank, the history of attempted genocide of Israel by her Islamic neighbors, or the escalating probability of a holocaust dwarfing that of WW2. Nor is he alone.
Saturday, Sept. 2007
Pro-Semite “Evangelicalism” for the Biblically Challenged
Once again, evangelical “Christian” leaders have appropriated for themselves the mandate to manipulate US foreign policy. In a July 27th Open Letter to President Bush, prominent evangelicals requested to meet with the President to “personally convey… support and discuss other ways” of effecting “a two-state solution and creation of a new Palestinian state that includes the vast majority of the West Bank.”
Although signatories include many presidents and other persons of prominence in “Christian” universities, magazines, and organizations e.g., Northwest University, Bethel University, Wheaton College, Fuller Theological Seminary, Denver Seminary, Christianity Today, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, World Hope International, World Relief, Evangelical Covenant Church, Vineyard USA, World Vision…, the Open Letter suggests a surprising lack of familiarity with what it describes as “the full teaching of the Scriptures”:
The Open Letter in alleging “violence and injustice” to Israel, ascribes baseless charges to the nation that still follows the commands of Leviticus 19:33-34:
And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
“If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat….” (Proverbs 25:21). These are not empty words. Unlike Islamic nations who use the Palestinians as expendable pawns, Israel is committed to give to those in hunger. When Gaza crossings were closed by terrorist attack, or when Hamas refused to allow life-giving supplies to their own, or when Palestinians failed to cooperate in humanitarian efforts, Israel alone shouldered the burden. Recently the IDF even investigated the viability of coastal air and sea drops of emergency provisions. One particularly effective Israeli food delivery system has been a 220-meter long conveyor belt circumventing the key Karni Crossing.
“… and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink” (Proverbs 25:21). When Palestinians recently fled from Gaza into the desert, IDF soldiers reportedly opened their tanks and tossed them water bottles.
“Thou shalt love him as thyself” is the motto Israeli doctors follow without partiality as they treat both the Palestinian terrorist and his victims. However, some have understandable qualms: "I don't mind servicing wounded Palestinian patients because that's what we were taught to do, but it does bother me when the television news reports detail how many Jews were killed in an attack and the Palestinian patients break into cheers"....
http://yisraelmyglory.blogspot.....alism.html
nina in ma| 5.14.11 @ 2:14PM
Good call! If you hear a lie enough you begin to believe it. The fact that Jews have been on earth for thousands of years while other cultures have come and gone is a witness to the fact that they are God's chosen and blessed people and Jerusulem his city.
Richard Baker| 5.14.11 @ 9:04AM
1.The story about the Test Platoon at Fort Benning had 6' 8"Aubrey Eberhardt and buddies watching a movie about Geronimo at the post theater the night before the first jump. Eberhardt said that he'd be able to to shout out at exit and
this was the word chosen. When he exited his buddies could clearly hear him on the ground. Source: "Paratrooper" by Gerald Devlin who interviewed Eberhardt.
2. All US Army helicopters are named for various Indian tribes such as Apache, Choctaw, Chinook. The UH-1 "Huey" is officially named the Iroquois. "Huey" is a corruption of the original model designation HU-1.
Richard Baker| 5.14.11 @ 9:07AM
By the way, these "Irrereligious Lefties" can go pound sand.
Richard Baker| 5.14.11 @ 9:08AM
Irreligious, not irrereligous.
Kevin Dunn| 5.14.11 @ 10:20AM
I reckon if Geronimo had confronted someone who had killed 3,000 of his people, he wouldn't have worried about the names, mch.
nina in ma| 5.14.11 @ 2:10PM
How true!
Glein| 5.14.11 @ 1:10PM
McLaren and his type deny the resurrection, the divinity of Jesus and decry all "creeds" as created by the evil Constantine at the Council of Nicea. IT is not surprising that they see evil intent where there is none and see no evil intent when it stares them in the eyes.
nina in ma| 5.14.11 @ 2:10PM
The so-called religion, any religion, is by and large man made. Rules written to get people to obey the church. If the religous zealots checked out all their symbols and customs they use to celebrate Christmas, Easter, etc they'd be horrified to see how these developed from pagen ceremonies and were in place way before Christ was born. Simply decorating a tree was a pagen custom that God forbid us...but we do and we will probably continue to do so, because to think we are participating in anything unholy is just to much to consider. And besides, it's pretty. I am not an atheist, I believe and have faith in God, however, religion is a totally different animal. As witnessed by all the things done in our past, and now with Islam and Allah in the name of religion. I think that gives me the right to laugh at all the dopey Libs who want to stop prayers and mangers and all the Merry Christmas', they think it has to do with worshiping God! They are just so smart!
jadvisor| 5.15.11 @ 7:54AM
Hey, he found a hobby horse to get some fame, and who knows, maybe some cash somehow. These guys: pretty transparent.
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Dee See| 5.15.11 @ 11:22PM
BTW ---since just two days ago, we learn
Fukishima is now being admitted to be far, far, far
worse than previously reported by our globalist
'EUGENICS friendly' media.
Seems now the spewing, from 6 reactors will
be continuing, at this rate!, not just for the next
10 months ---but in fact INDEFINTELY.
As you try to unload your house in Malibu,
and try to set up, along with the Bushes , in
Paraguay, or with Daid Rockefeller in Chile
read on.
There's 500x isotopes level in food and milk
across the States.
Looks like Bill Gates and UNESCO are
going to get their 100 MILLION exterminated
in the US by 2050 afterall.
NO GIGGLING PLEASE-----------------------------
MadeinUSA| 5.16.11 @ 7:40AM
Perhaps the code name "Geronimo" was used because his warriors were the first to use "special ops" tactics in combat. Maybe the code name "Geronimo" was a tribute.
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