The American Spectator : Say Hey to 80

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Say Hey to 80

By Quin Hillyer on 5.6.11 @ 6:07AM

Willie Mays was the greatest player, ever.

There was something about that baseball card. For one thing, the 587 under the "HR" column, far and above the corresponding number on any other player's card, absolutely wowed a five-year-old who thought that home runs were the primary measure of a player's greatness. For another thing, there was that incredibly broad and engaging smile on the photograph. Finally, there was, as I remember it, some sort of "fun fact" about how this player was particularly known for going out of his way to be nice to children.

Somewhere around that time came the greatest catch I ever saw. No, it wasn't "The Catch," the famous Polo Grounds snag of the ball blasted by Cleveland's Vic Wertz; that one came ten years before I was born. This catch was even better. My memory might embellish the reality a little, but it went something like this: A drive to right-center in Candlestick Park. Two incredibly fast outfielders at full sprint in pursuit. Bobby Bonds, from right field, arrived at the ball and the fence at the exact same time. So did my player, streaking over from center. He arrived at the same place at the same time. Two players, at full sprint, hit each other and the fence simultaneously. Both players fell in disheveled, oddly angled heaps. One of them may even have been temporarily knocked unconscious. Then came the dawning realization: Nobody seemed to know where the ball was.

Then, from the centerfielder, still in a heap on the ground, the gloved hand raised up, like that arm in the promo for the movie Deliverance. The glove opened. The world could see: The ball was snugly inside. The batter was out. Willie Mays' glove once more had become the place, as an opposing team's executive once said, "where triples go to die."

I was hooked on Willie Mays for life. And the more I learned about him, the more I liked. I found out that the stories of his manifold kindnesses to kids were true. I saw him act as a peacemaker in the 1973 League Championship Series when Mets fans were throwing objects at Cincinnati's Pete Rose. I read about how he had run to the aid of opponent Johnny Roseboro, rather than joining in the brawl, when his teammate Juan Marichal beat Roseboro on the head with a bat. I heard how he had taken time to take a troubled, athletic gang member named O.J. Simpson around San Francisco one day, by Simpson's own testimony turning the youth's life around. (Okay, okay, I didn't know in 1973 that O.J. would revert to form two decades later.)

Everything about Mays seemed admirable. And, of course, his record as a ballplayer, even as he faded into mediocrity on the field by the time I was nine years old, remained absolutely nonpareil.

Today (as indicated by the headline), the Say Hey Kid turns 80 years young. I happen to be reading, thoroughly enjoying, and marveling at, Mays' official biography by James S. Hirsch, Willie Mays: The Life, The Legend. What I am finding is that it was all true: Just about all the heroic qualities that my younger, innocent self had ascribed to Mays turn out to be qualities Mays usually exhibited. He was an ever better player than can be imagined -- and a good and kind and generous man.

His remarkable career statistics, especially the 660 home runs when all was said and done, actually understate his brilliance. He lost nearly two full seasons to military service; the year he returned, he hit 41 home runs. Give him just 30 in each of the two previous years and he would have passed Babe Ruth before Henry Aaron did. But wait: There's more. He played almost his entire career in two of the worst home parks ever for home run hitters. New York's Polo Grounds did have an incredibly short left-field foul line, conducive to homers, but Mays' power was to the "alleys" -- and the Polo Grounds' right- and left-center alleys were cavernous. No park today has fences remotely as deep. Then there was San Francisco's Candlestick Park, plagued by winds that particularly beat back drives to left field, which is exactly where the right-handed Mays pounded the ball. Author Hirsch reports that today's sophisticated statisticians estimate that Candlestick alone cost Mays between 80 and 160 home runs during the course of his career (Mays himself estimates it was around 120). Put Mays in Milwaukee's park or Atlanta's Fulton County Stadium, and he might have approached 800 career homers, even without recouping his two military seasons.

And that was during some of the tougher years for hitters in Major League history. Throughout much of the 1960s, pitchers had a statistical advantage, especially in Mays' National League. Those were the years when Sandy Koufax was tallying ERAs of 2.54, 1.88, 1.74, 2.04 and 1.73, while Bob Gibson (a few seasons later) was posting ERAs of 2.44, 2.98, 1.12 and 2.18.

Mays led his league in hitting once (and second three times), walks once, on-base percentage twice (including at age 40!), stolen bases four times, home runs four times, triples three times, runs twice, slugging five times (and second-place twice). Ten different times he led the league in the stats-nerds' new favorite category: wins above replacement player. He won Gold Gloves for the first 12 consecutive seasons the award was given (and surely would have won in the three previous years if the award had existed). His 7,095 career putouts easily lead all outfielders in history. And, by all accounts, he made more visually spectacular plays, with his glove and with his arm and with his base-running, than can easily be fathomed. Scoring from first base on singles, repeatedly. Advancing from first to third on ground-outs, repeatedly. Scoring from second base on sacrifice flies. And always doing so with a showman's flair.

"I'm not sure what the hell charisma is," said slugger Ted Kluszewski, "but I get the feeling it's Willie Mays." Or, as the actress Tallulah Bankhead said in 1962, "There have been only two geniuses in the world: Willie Mays and Willie Shakespeare."

It's quite possible, however, that not even The Bard's poetry could have done justice to the Say Hey Kid.

About the Author

Quin Hillyer is a senior editor of The American Spectator and a senior fellow at the Center for Individual Freedom.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (97) | Leave a comment

Jmulcahy| 5.6.11 @ 6:13AM

Thanks, Mr. Hillyer. I, too, thought of Willie Mays today as he turned 80. He was the best ballplayer I ever saw and my idol growing up.

Dave| 5.6.11 @ 6:46PM

These kind of baseball battles are always fun to do. It seems depending on who you grew up watching and rooting for might depend on who you finally ranked Best of All Time. My answer? Who knows? It's just kinda' keen to around over a few Buds, a burger and a plate of cheese fries.

As a senior dude who grew up becoming a lifelong baseball fan in the late '50, the "Say Hey Kid" may well have been the best of all time. But those fans of ... "Mickey and The Duke" might have another opinion or two. I guess in my case, I won't try and rank them by number. For now I'll just tip my tattered Brooklyn hat to all of 'em and belt out -- PLAY BALL!

The Bishop| 5.6.11 @ 6:38AM

Great article about a great player. Oh how I wish that I had not given away my 1957 - 1962 complete collection of baseball cards. I had many multiples of the great Willie Mays. (Boy, was I stupid.)

Nunya| 5.6.11 @ 11:34AM

Reminds me of a shirt I saw once: "I used to be a millionaire--until my Mom threw out my baseball cards."

(sigh)

jppl| 5.6.11 @ 6:58AM

yes Mays was great, very, very great. But please, enough already with the "minority triumphalism", that is on display 24/7 from nearly everyone in the media/political class (really one in the same).

Just like nearly every commercial on television features Blacks, every "news station" must have an Asian woman and the Food Channel must feature Latino/Mexican meals every other program.

Self hated is the new normal for Americans. It's because we've been bullied into thinking that we're RACIST, that our history is RACIST, that the Founding Fathers were RACIST, that everyone is RAAAACCCIIISSTTT@!!

It won't end until white Americans are in the minority - that's the goal and mass immigration is the main mechanism to achieve it.

Open border uber alles!

LarryK| 5.6.11 @ 8:29AM

Jppl, this is not "triumphalism" of any group, but of a singularly great player. Look at Mr. Hillyer's brief bio - he is a Senior Fellow at the Center for Individual Freedom, the key word being 'individual.' Race is completely irrelevant here, so why bring it up?

For the record, I agree with Bob K below. Mays was great, and possibly the greatest all-around everyday player. But Ruth was an outstanding pitcher before he became an outfielder, and would have probably made it to the Hall if he stayed a pitcher his entire career. However, he was at the same time such a powerful hitter that he completely dominated and transformed the game. No other player in history combined a potential Hall of Fame pitching career with overwhelming batting dominance; in fact, none are even close. Babe Ruth was truly one of a kind, which makes him the greatest player ever.

Still, great article.

Jeremiah| 5.6.11 @ 9:30AM

Oh, yeah, Willie Mays was, by far, the best rounded position player ever. He hit for average and power, was one of the most brilliant fielders ever, with an arm as accurate and powerful as a laser-guided missile and could steal a ton of bases. Ernie Banks was my childhood hero - but I knew Willie Mays was just flat-out astoundingly great. The only thing he couldn't do was pitch.

Which brings up Babe Ruth. With a career pitching record of 94-46 and a lifetime 2.28 ERA, Ruth would probably have won several Cy Young Awards if they had had it then before he ever became a position player. Ruth hit a home run every 13 at-bats, a pace no one else has ever come close to (the very best home run hitters come in at about one home run in every 20 at-bats - almost double what it took Ruth). In 1918, the Boston Red Sox had Ruth pitching less frequently (he won 13 of his 20 decisions that year) so he could get more at-bats. With only 317 at-bats, about half of other full-time regular players, he led the league in home runs. Can you imagine Ruth in today's era with the designated hitter? Push out the numbers for a full career and he would come in with nearly 400 wins pitching and nearly 900 home runs.

A very good case can be made for either Babe Ruth or Willie Mays as the best ever - and the only players who even had the potential to rival them played in the Negro Leagues - Satchel Paige and Josh Gibson. (Paige did play in the majors late in his career - incredibly late. He first broke into MLB at age 42....pitched in All-Star Games when he was 46 and 47. He pitched three innings when he was 59 years old and then retired - no typos here: like Ruth and Mays, Paige was a phenomenon. Funny, the award for Best Pitcher is almost surely named after the second best pitcher)

Occam's Tool| 5.6.11 @ 10:43AM

Ruth could have made the Hall of Fame as a pitcher, as well. A bit more complete than Mays, with a much higher average (.342).

tdiinva| 5.6.11 @ 12:15PM

I have made this argument since Hank Aaron broke the Babe's career HR record. He is the only position player in major league history who has Hall of Fame pitching numbers. Everybody remembers that Roger Maris broke the Babe's single season HR record in 1961. But that wasn't the only Ruth record to fall that year. Whitey Ford broke his consecutive World Series Scoreless innings streak in the '61 Fall Classic.

Gary| 5.7.11 @ 6:14PM

What do you suppose a dominant left handed pitcher who plays right field when he isn't on the mound and leads the league in home runs while hitting about 340 would earn today? $40 - 50 million?

Ryan| 5.6.11 @ 8:30AM

Hillyer made no mention of race. This article isn't about race, it's about one of the best athletes ever.

Albert| 5.6.11 @ 10:13AM

I agree. I grew up watching Mays on TV and actually saw him play once at Candlestick. (I was 10, I think.) I never thought of him as "black" or anything else. He is Wille Mays! Imagine watching Mays batting 3rd followed by Willie McCovey batting cleanup! Baseball does not get any better than that!

Occam's Tool| 7.1.11 @ 5:09PM

A celebration of Willie Mays is not minority triumphalism. There's a good argument that Mays was the best fielding outfielder of all time. In addition, he was one of the very best Home Run hitters of all time (after we get rid of the steroid clowns, one is left with Aaron, Ruth and Mays as the top 3 on the HR list), had the speed of Ricky Henderson, and was one of the most intelligent players of all time.

He was something. It's not a racial ove thing, it's the admiration of a great man.

For example, to use an example of another GREAT ballplayer---Ernie Banks was loved in Chicago, which was one of the most brutally racist towns in the US. I remember when I was a scrawny 7 year old with definite issues regarding my size, Ernie bragged about my wrist size to my dad when meeting me. I still love that man; he was incredibly kind to me. Oh, and by the way, Ernie's Black.

Not everything about Black superstars has to do with skin color. Get over it, man.

Occam's Tool| 7.1.11 @ 5:09PM

"Racial love," sorry.

MoeBlotz| 5.6.11 @ 7:01AM

Maybe the best outfielder of his day,but our perception of history begins with the day we are born. In your opinion,Mr.Hillyer,perhaps Mr.Mays is the best basebell player ever what? To play the game,to strap on a pair of spikes,to swing a bat,to catch a fly,to run through grass,to play centre field,to wear glove leather,to expectorate on the diamond?????????

Tracy Mehan| 5.6.11 @ 7:06AM

A great man, but you will get an argument from many tht Joe DiMaggio's ease and elegance masked his superior talent. He made it all look too easy. Wonderful article, Quin.

markben| 5.6.11 @ 7:41AM

You mean Bobby Bonds, not Barry: "Barry Bonds, from right field, arrived at the ball and the fence at the exact same time."

W| 5.6.11 @ 7:48AM

Mays was in the Army for two years, in the prime of his career, so he missed about 80 home runs. then he played in candlestick park, with the crazy winds that hurt right handed hitters, so he probably lost another 10 home runs per year in Frisco.

Stuart Koehl| 5.6.11 @ 4:01PM

Ted Williams missed five full seasons to World War II and Korea. By adding the average number of home runs and hits from the three seasons preceding his military service, you would get an additional 96 home runs and 564 hits for 1942-45; and an additional 66 homers and 300 hits for 1952-53--a total of 162 "missing" homers and 864 "missing" hits. But for his years missed serving in the Marine, Williams would have finished his career with 683 home runs and 3518 hits, not to mention a batting average somewhere north of .350, making him, overall, the most fearsome hitter between 1939 and 1961--especially when one considers this methodology to be inherently conservative. Remember, in 1957, Williams batted .388, and came within a couple of hits of cracking .400 for the second time at the age of 39.

It is counterfactualism that makes baseball a great sport to discuss over beer.

W| 5.6.11 @ 8:25PM

agree with you, both mays and williams probably would have hit over 714 home runs.
aaron was great, but he had everthing go right for him, no military, no injuries, and played at atlanta where everybody hit home runs, and he had eddie matthews batting after him

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 7:56PM

Stuart, it is not fair to use his average home runs, as he was in his prime in those years, averaging about 40 homers/yr. Ted would have beaten the Babe.

Bob K.| 5.6.11 @ 7:55AM

Mays was great, one of the greatest.

GEORGE HERMAN (BABE) RUTH WAS THE GREATEST OF THEM ALL!

Bob K.| 5.6.11 @ 8:07AM

And the Babe played well before I was born!

Baseball transcends our petty individual perceptions of when history begins!

Bob K.| 5.6.11 @ 8:14AM

The Babe's pitching career took place during the dead ball era. But if he had been a hitter during those years there is little doubt that his hitting statistics during those years, added to what he did after he stopped pitching would still not be approached.

Bob K.| 5.6.11 @ 8:05AM

And it is unfair to mention how his loss of playing time to his 2 years service in the Army affected his statistics without comparing it with Ted Williams loss of 5 years to the military and loss of nearly 1 year to injury.

I would also argue that Williams was a greater player than Mays. Although Mays was the greatest of all Center Fielders.

Autoacct628| 5.6.11 @ 8:27AM

Teddy Ballgame was our greatest hitter. Willie was the greatest PLAYER!

cuban pete| 5.6.11 @ 8:52AM

Bingo!

WJ| 5.6.11 @ 10:24AM

Ditto on the Bingo.

Gary| 5.7.11 @ 6:21PM

Enjoy watching Pujols right now. Albert's first 10 years were as good as anyone whose played, although the Ruth pitching arguement is valid here. With Matt Holiday and Lance Berkman behind him in the Cardinals lineup you'll see a murderers row for any generation.

LarryK| 5.6.11 @ 8:33AM

Bob, don't forget how many years Ruth lost as a hitter in the first years of his career when he was a pitcher.

For the record, BobK is no relation to LarryK.

Occam's Tool| 5.6.11 @ 10:40AM

Williams was a great hitter. A better hitter than even Mays. But Mays was, by far, a more complete player, and much better overall. Williams was nothing special with glove and arm, and he knew it.

Bob K.| 5.6.11 @ 1:01PM

Some people are center fielders others aren't they are born with the arm and speed to play it. Some positions are harder to play than others but it is still a team game. Williams could have played Left Field anywere. It is not reasonable to compare Mays and Williams and decide on Mays on this basis alone. Mays was not at all as good a hitter as Williams was or as DiMaggio was, for that matter. And as far as all around ball playing goes he didn't play center field any better than DiMaggio did either!

Stuart Koehl| 5.6.11 @ 4:03PM

I would hazard to say, though, that of the three center fielders playing in New York in the 1950s--Mays with the Giants, Mantle with the Yanks, and Snider with the Dodgers, it was the Duke who had the best glove. Willie and Mickey could be spectacular, but Duke Snider was the most consistent fielder, day in and day out, of his era.

GreatOne| 5.6.11 @ 1:27PM

And your argument that Mays was a greater centerfielder than Ty Cobb is . . .? I'd hate to mark it up to liberal white guilt (or the fact that Cobb was a racist a--hole), but I don't see how Mays is considered better than Cobb. Much higher average, higher OBP, higher OPS (and OPS+), and higher WAR. And while playing in only 42 more games, Cobb far outpaced Mays in every category save home runs (runs, doubles, triples, rbi, sb). And as an outfielder, don't see where Cobb was any less effective (just no cameras).

Occam's Tool| 7.1.11 @ 5:16PM

Commentary varies on Cobb as a fielder. The BEST Centerfielder of Cobb's day was Speaker, not Cobb, even though Cobb was a better offensive weapon than Speaker. Speaker had a VERY high opinion of Mays as a fielder.

Occam's Tool| 7.1.11 @ 5:13PM

Dear Bob,

No. Williams was not a great baserunner, and was a mediocre fielder.What he was was the greatest combination of power and average ever seen in one player, with the possible exception of Babe Ruth (although the Rajah also hit for power, and had a lifetime batting average of .358).

But Mays had ALL the tools, and Williams did not.

WilliamR| 5.6.11 @ 8:10AM

I saw Mays hit his 500th and 511th home run tying Mel Ott in the Astrodome.

Autoacct628| 5.6.11 @ 8:25AM

Mr. Mays was indeed a gentleman, a hero and a superb baseball player. The baseball world tips our collective cap to you, Willie. May God bless. Thank you for your grace, your dignity, and your excellence. When I look back on the 1960's now and realize that ALL AT THE SAME TIME we had Willie, Mickey, Hank, Roberto, Frank and Al (if you need their last names, you are either too young or not truly a fan....if you are too young, find a true baseball fan of 5o years old and ask him who the best and classiest outfielders of all time were.....) playing during the same era.

Football has become a dumbed-down America's passion, but baseball will always be our greatest game.

VBMax| 5.6.11 @ 8:57AM

You forgot to mention the Duke...

Autoacct628| 5.6.11 @ 9:29AM

The Duke had his best years in the 1950's...by the 1960's he was on the downslope of his great career...I never saw him play....but, yes, he was one of the greats, too. Didn't mean to slight him by not including him, but I remember the others all so much better.

The Bishop| 5.6.11 @ 10:37AM

Thank God I grew up during the time before the expansion beyond eight teams to a league. The expansion diluted the talent. And think of the salaries paid to those who followed who could hold a candle to the talent we watched and adored. Ah, the good old days!

Wally| 5.6.11 @ 10:40AM

Hear, hear. And there were more. I particularly rem the old allstar games and the NL starting OF of Aaron, Mays and Clemente. Sheesh. No one is going first to third on anything but a ground rule double !!!

No steroids. Gentlemen all. Starting pitchers actually finished games. A stark contrast to what the game has evolved to...

skip| 5.8.11 @ 10:25AM

Well, certainly no one on the NL allstar team was going from first to third with Kaline in right for the AL.

Gary| 5.7.11 @ 6:23PM

Stan Musial

hardcard| 5.6.11 @ 8:27AM

Great yes, not the greatest.

ConantheContrarian| 5.6.11 @ 9:09AM

I want to puke when I read this type of enconium to sports stars. I couldn't even finish it. Just another jock sniffer. Grow up.

Paul| 5.6.11 @ 9:27AM

You are a little bitchy this morning, take some midol and get your tampon ready.

ConantheContrarian| 5.6.11 @ 12:24PM

Not bitchy at all. Don't need a Midol, don't need a tampon. Just can't stand jock-sniffers like you, Catamite.

JKS| 5.6.11 @ 12:58PM

You need Summer's Eve. Your douchebaggery is pathetic. Yes, he was a sports star, but his actions off the field also showed him to be a good person. He is someone who should be admired and looked up to, Jackass.

ConantheContrarian| 5.6.11 @ 1:09PM

It just goes to show you that Paul and JKS are incapable of reading what I have written. I have no problems with Mr. Mays. I can't stand the slavering hero worship accorded men who play sports. May I introduce you to Paul, JKS. Perhaps you two can jock sniff together. Catamites.

PAUL| 5.6.11 @ 4:07PM

I would suggest crypto - fags not read articles that are for men.

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:00PM

No, Conan--- Mays, like Musial, like Banks, like Robinson---was more than just a ballplayer. Banks and mays were great men who happened to be ballplayers, as was Stan the Man, and especially ROBINSON (Jackie, not Brooks). So, incidentally, was the great Hank Greenberg, who put up with an enormous amount of crap from the Clints in baseball.

Paul| 5.6.11 @ 9:22AM

Being from Baltimore I have to admit to maybe having a small bias, but, the greatest player ever is George Herman Ruth, Jr. The Georgia Peach a close second.

Jeremiah| 5.6.11 @ 9:36AM

Greatest hitter - Ted Williams (with a nod to Ty Cobb)
Greatest position player - Willie Mays
Greatest pitcher - Satchel Paige
Greatest player - Babe Ruth

cuban pete| 5.6.11 @ 9:53AM

Greatest pitcher(up to 1950) Lefty Grove
Greatest pitcher since Bob Gibson
A shame Satch could not have tested his mettle against the best during his prime.

Jeremiah| 5.6.11 @ 10:06AM

Well, Cuban Pete, he often did. Though blacks were not allowed in the major leagues, they often played against each other in exhibition games. And the major leaguers did not like the results when Satchel Paige was pitching.

During that era, it would be a mistake to assume that the major leagues contained the best players. Just look at the distribution of black and white players today. In fact, the achievements of MLB players of the era are somewhat suspect because the talent pool was diluted by the exclusiion of blacks. A good chunk of Babe Ruth's homers were hit against pitchers who, if not for the dilution of the talent pool, would have been minor leaguers.

Your comment is accurate in a sense, but it cuts both ways. When Paige broke into the majors at 42, he was 6-1 with the Cleveland Indians. He became a relief pitcher until he retired in his 50s. Casey Stengel, who managed the Yankees, once complained that when playing the Indians, they had to get ahead in the first 6 innings or the Indians would bring in that "old man" and the game would be over. That quote came when Paige was in his LATE 40s.

cuban pete| 5.6.11 @ 11:45AM

Thanks for your insight. It is a shame we have to have to speculate. At the end of the day if Paige could have played in the bigs his entire career he would have won a barrel full of games.

Jeremiah| 5.7.11 @ 12:48AM

Yeah, you're right, Cuban Pete. It is a shame we have to speculate. It is fun to look at this stuff, though - and admire people who absolutely transcended human limitations.

Stuart Koehl| 5.6.11 @ 4:36PM

I might say Bob Feller for the Golden Age of the mid-30s to the mid-50s. Feller lost four prime years to the Navy in World War II (1942-45), and, using the same methodology as I applied to Ted Williams for hitting, we can estimate those missing years cost Feller approximately 101 games and 1022 strikeouts. This would have given Rapid Robert 367 wins and 3602 strikeouts, putting him among the two or three greatest pitchers of all time.

cuban pete| 5.7.11 @ 8:03AM

Feller could have avoided service because he was the oldest son of a farm family but he choose to serve.

Bob K.| 5.6.11 @ 1:07PM

Greatest Hitter: Babe Ruth
Greatest Pitcher: Walter Johnson
Greatest Player: Babe Ruth
Greatest Position Player: Meaningless-You need nine-it is a team game.

Jack in Wi.| 5.6.11 @ 9:38AM

I was a major league groundskeeper for 3 years in the early 60's. I saw willie and alot of the other greats right up close during batting practice and in the dugout, as well as during the games. It was quite an experience.

Archie| 5.6.11 @ 10:31AM

Thanks for the Memories--2 Points
1) Like you, I'm not old enough to have seen, live, the '54 Catch. But, I have REMEMBERED all these years the catch you describe in the article. It was EVERYTHING you said.
2) Willie ENJOYED playing. My favorite FUN memory is of the All-Star games. He usually led off for the NL. And he usually played the entire game. Each time he came to bat, he would be wearing a different helmet, borrowed from one of his All-Star teammates. It was his way of showing that--for today--we are on the same team.
He was the BEST!

Occam's Tool| 5.6.11 @ 10:41AM

No. Mays was not just another jock sniffer. He has grace of character. Robinson was most definitely not a "jock sniffer," either, nor was Hank Greenburg.

Willie also ended up quite wealthy, incidentally.

W| 5.6.11 @ 11:00AM

best all around player i saw was roberto clemente. he could run, field, throw, hit, and when he had to he could hit with power. his stats don't match mays,mantle, but he was great to watch.

ConantheContrarian| 5.6.11 @ 12:27PM

It is clear that you don't know what a jock-sniffer is. Mays is the jock; Quin is the jock-sniffer.

PAUL| 5.6.11 @ 4:12PM

Fag O' Contrarian - don't read articles that are for men, and please go back to the daily koz, much more suited to metrosexuals like you.

Occams - I appreciate your insights on other articles, keep up the good work.

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:04PM

Thank you, Paul.

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:03PM

Sorry, Conan. But your point is that these men are nothing special as human beings. True this may be for idiots like Bret Favre---but Greenberg, Mays, Musial, and most especially Robinson---are in a different class altogether. By the way, Ted is a member of two Pro Sport Hall of Fames---he is also one of the greatest Fly Fishermen ever to have lived.

Jeff R| 5.6.11 @ 11:09AM

Mays was a multi-tool player and superior athlete. Sort of set the standard for outfielders to come.

Ted Williams has to get a nod, though. His plate discipline was incredible. Williams also lost time due to military service.

But those are position players. Really do need to separate the position players from the pitchers.

To my mind, Warren Spahn was the greatest lefty of all time. Spahn might have won 400 games had it not been for military service earlier in his career. Very smart, adaptable pitcher. Greg Maddux had similar qualities, though Spahn was a fastball pitcher who wound up throwing more junk in his late twenties to the end of his career in his forties.

Al Adab| 5.6.11 @ 11:31AM

Americans love to debate. Isn't it wonderful that Spring is here and baseball returns? Someone wise once said, "you can't understand America without understanding baseball." True words. We happily turn our attention from the ritfalls of self government and public policy to the delights of summer.

The greatest player ever might just be someone we never heard of because he, A: got hurt and never made the majors; B: Chose another life career; C: Didn't play against heavy competition. Any of those help set the measurement. Nonetheless, Mays is certainly on the top 5 list. Within that list it's hard to seperate one from the other. Pitchers and position players probably require two categories.

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:05PM

Al--Pete Reiser comes to mind as an example of what you are talking about.

Now Leo Durocher was not only a superb big league manager, he was a major swordsman with the ladies. It is worth looking up his technique, sometime. I wouldn't have the guts to pull it off, myself.

Dave| 5.6.11 @ 11:45AM

I will not deny the greatness of Willie Mays on the diamond, although I am not convinced he's the greatest ballplayer ever. Babe Ruth anyone?

I will confirm he's a jerk. In the summer of 2004, my wife and I took our two sons to San Francisco to root on our beloved Cardinals with tickets to 2 of the 3-game series. As we approached the gate, a stadium attendant hustled us to the side so that an elderly black man and woman could enter ahead of us. Turns out it was Willie. I told my sons that we would plant ourselves at the same gate the next day in hopes of securing an autograph. The attendant, who obviously overheard my comment, told me "Don't waste your time--Mr. Mays doesn't sign autographs."

I've heard Willie was mentor to Barry Bonds. Makes sense now.

tonypal| 5.6.11 @ 12:14PM

Very simple. Just compare Ruth's numbers to Mays' numbers. Not even close. There were years in which Ruth outhomered entire teams by himself. Mays was one of the top 5 players of all time, but the numbers tell the story.

Ken (Old Texican)| 5.6.11 @ 1:29PM

Quin,
I played ball. (lefthanded knuckleballer).

I guess the reason I liked Willie so much was his attitude and grace under pressure, much like Hank Aaron......
It's hard to focus on a baseball when snipers are in the ballpark.
So many gifted young men lose their way. Willie and Hank never did.
Thanks for the memories.

Big Jim| 5.6.11 @ 3:16PM

Dave, you shouldn't have listened to the attendant. Willie signed one for me. The greatest players in my opinion were and are, in order: Mays, Wagner, Cobb, Ruth & Williams.

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:07PM

I worked with Don Sutton's brother, and Don was kind enough to sign a baseball for me after I made sure his brother knew that I wanted it "personalized." There's another class act pitcher.

Al Adab| 5.6.11 @ 4:04PM

How good would the guys from the twenties be with today's training equipment? How good would Mantle have been with today's surgery? It's hard to compare across eras, but we could probably devise a top ten (pitchers another category) of co-equal all time - sorta "tied for first".

TMF| 5.6.11 @ 7:36PM

The N.Y. Giants were to come to Minneapolis until
da bums moved to L.A. Put Willie in Metropolitan
Stadium for 15 years...Yikes...no one would be talk'n bout Henry Aaron..

Thatsafactjack!

Tina B| 5.6.11 @ 7:58PM

Al Adab, you can be such a great mediator, on many issues.

I was thinking a similar thought, only the down side. I wonder how many of our bb heroes mentioned would be tempted and even fall prey to the usage of performance enhancing drugs had they been available and "popular" then.

I, too, got to see Duke Snyder once, and Mantle when he was a dynamic duo with Roger Maris. It was 1962 season and I swear he waved his glove back at a chubby little 8th grader wildly waving her glove at him and yelling his name as they 7th inning stretched against the L.A. Dodgers. At least I'm pretty sure he waved back at me.

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:07PM

Thanks, Tina. Yup, Al is a good guy.

Wayne | 5.7.11 @ 12:42PM

Best player ever was Micky Mantle. He was easily as fast as Mays, hit with more power from both sides of the play, ran down fly balls just as well and had the best arm ever seen in baseball. He once had an error in Comiskey Park that was astounding. He through the ball from the farthest point, 425 feet, on a line that went over the catchers head and hit the screen. That made it a 500 foot throw.

Unfortunately after 30 his game faded with that wretched knee and years of heavy drinking.

Richard Baker| 5.7.11 @ 2:54PM

Nunya:
My Mother (Bless her Memory) threw out my '50s Mantle, Kaline, and other players cards in the shoebox in which I kept them because the box was "dusty." Yaaaaaah!

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:08PM

And there went your retirement.

Isaac Asimov once responded personally to a letter I wrote him as a seven year old, and my mom threw that out.

Who Knows?| 5.7.11 @ 5:38PM

As a kid, in Portland, Oregon, a few times I got to see exhibition games.

Once, the SF Giants came, and Willie spent time at the plate blasting homer after homer out of the park--of course, left field was VERY SHORT, but it was a thrill to see him so much in a groove.

Also, later, when Satchel Paige was in his 50's, I'm pretty sure, I saw him pitch for the Portland Beaver AAA team for one inning, in relief.

He shut down the hitters!

By the way, the WSJ has a featured article, today, about Stan "The Man" Musial, who was also quite possibly one of the all time greats.

About who's the "greatest" of all time---

My old man can beat your old man!

OR---

My lawyer can beat up your lawyer.

Kay| 5.7.11 @ 7:13PM

I believe it.

Steve| 5.7.11 @ 10:08PM

It really depends on how you define "greatest ballplayer ever". In absolute terms the greatest ballplayer, whoever he is, almost certainly played in the last 50 years and Willie Mays is as good as any of them. Players are simply much better conditioned now than they were in the early 20th century. Babe Ruth was a behemoth in his day, but his playing weight in his prime was 198 pounds, big then but puny for a power hitter by today's standards.
But if you judge players against their peers, there is no question that Babe Ruth was the greatest ballplayer of all time. He was not only a Hall of Fame caliber pitcher, he also out-homered every TEAM in baseball some seasons in the early 1920's. He hit 20 or so homeruns in a season during the dead ball era when Frank Baker earned the nickname "homerun" Baker for hitting 11 home runs in a season.

bob| 5.8.11 @ 3:15PM

i grew up in the 50's and was a huge willie mays fan. i remember having an ongoing fight with a friend as to who was better "Mantle or Mays"there was even a magazine titled "mantle or mays?" i wish i still had it. the play that stands out in my mind typified willie mays -it was in an all star game in the twilight of his career. he hit a line drive to left field and the fielder got it on the first bounce to look up and see willie streaking towards second -the fielder looking incredulous simply tossed the ball easily to second for an easy out. willie meanwhile slid from 8 feet out raising a cloud of dust, he was out by a mile. the crowd was cheering wildly as he got up, dusted himself off, patted the umpire on the back, and strode off to a standing ovation!! only willie mays could make a dumb play and turn it into theatre. there will never be another like him.

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:10PM

Bob---there's an excellent article---I'll try to find it, which showed that Mantle was better in his best 10 years than Mays was in his, as a player. As a man---on the most ill-behaved day of his life, Mays was a better man than Mantle at his best.

Tom| 5.8.11 @ 7:00PM

Great article about a great player! I was 9 when the Giants moved to SF for their first season in 1958. I remember watching Willie Mays play in Seals Stadium as well as Candlestick--and when I wasn't there, listening to his heroics on KSFO. Willie Mays hooked me on the Giants for years. And even now, 52 years and several cities later, I always smile when I see a Giants win.

dick| 5.8.11 @ 7:11PM

First heroes ... Alvin Dark, Ed Stanky, Nellie Fox, Chico Carousquel, Luis Aparacio .... but all time favorite Willie Mays.

Occam's Tool| 7.29.11 @ 8:11PM

For me, my favorite baseball players (not saying the best, just saying MY favorite) are Banks, Banks, Banks... and Sutton.

theduke| 5.8.11 @ 7:11PM

I went to the All Star game at Yankee Stadium in 1950. Willie Mays lead off for the National League and took over the game. He had three hits and stole a couple of bases and scored a couple of runs if I recall correctly. He played the full 9 innings. The people in New York still loved him and he didn't disappoint them.

While I was a Yankee fan at the time, I have to say that Mays was the best all around player who ever played the game. As Reggie Jackson once said, "Mays could go 0 for 4 and still beat you."

theduke| 5.8.11 @ 7:12PM

Typo: the All Star game was in 1960 when I was 12 years old.

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elfego| 9.20.11 @ 12:01PM

Interesting that most ex-players,coaches, mgrs,umpires,scouts,owners say its Mays or Clemente then overrated myths from WEAK pitching eras!!! Why baseball continues to hide Roberto is the discussion that should be foremost on everyones plate. Follow the $ trail.