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A Further Perspective
Celebrating the Resurrection
A gloomy Easter coming up for those aging theologians who’ve spent decades arguing the great event never occurred.
Hundreds of millions of Christians will celebrate the resurrection of Jesus Christ on Easter Sunday. And after a century and a half of liberal Protestant attempts to redefine the resurrection into merely a metaphor, the vast majority of Christians still believe that Christ’s body physically arose. Revisionist theologians still find airtime on the History Channel or PBS, but their project never gained a mass following. Even most secular media coverage about religion today focuses largely on orthodox expressions of Roman Catholicism or evangelical Protestantism. Whatever their own beliefs, most reporters and pundits intuit that rationalist liberal theology does not command a lot of adherents.
The Jesus Seminar, founded in 1985 to adjudicate over which Scriptures were historically accurate, and which always excluded any talk about miracles, once gained widespread attention for its routine objections to traditional Christian belief. “Christ’s Body Actually Eaten by Wild Dogs!” was a typical headline from a Jesus Seminar gathering, where liberal scholars would vote with color marbles over which biblical verses were valid. Eventually these self-selected academics ran out of incendiary claims, and the media mostly stopped heeding their pronouncements after founder Robert Funk died in 2005, if not well before. Co-founder and former Roman Catholic priest John Dominic Crosson, now about 76 years old, still soldiers on. He and other kindred academics routinely speak around the nation, gathering usually small audiences of gray-headed, mostly retired clergy. Of course, the Jesus Seminar skeptics insist notions about a divine Jesus being born of a virgin or rising from the dead were self-servingly and dogmatically imposed by the later church. They themselves typically and dogmatically assert Christianity’s unqualified support for a redistributive welfare state, sexual liberation, and opposition to the American “empire.”
Another aging survivor of the Jesus Seminar is nearly 80 year old retired Episcopal Church Bishop John Shelby Spong, though his fame preceded his induction. In the 1980s and 1990s, while Bishop of Newark, Spong penned books speculating that the Virgin Mary was a prostitute impregnated by a Roman soldier, and that St. Paul was a self-hating homosexual, among other saucy assertions that once gained headlines but now excite yawns. He earned audiences with Phil Donahue and other breathless talk show hosts, most of whom are now themselves faded from view. Spong always claimed that “fundamentalist,” i.e. orthodox Christianity, was dying, and he was its savior. That his New Jersey diocese lost 40 percent of its members while he was providing enlightened leadership as bishop never seemed to provoke self-reflection. One bemused observer who recently went to hear him speak at a New Jersey college campus remarked he was able to locate the event by following the trail of “old people.” Liberal revisionism was always mainly the project of upper middle class, white Mainline Protestants, with advanced degrees and a certain disdain for the ostensibly superstitious masses who heed a more literal version of Christianity. The evangelical mega-churches of today’s America, not to mention the surging faith of Global South Christianity, especially in Africa, usually befuddle and irritate this audience, most of whom are now long retired.
Spong still runs a website for airing his revisionist prognostications, charging $9.95 every three months for subscribers. He tut-tuts about the “fundamentalists” who still believe in a physical resurrection of Jesus and concludes that “something of enormous power gripped the disciples following the crucifixion that transformed their lives.” But it was “some fifty years before that transforming experience was interpreted as the resuscitation of a three days dead Jesus to the life of the world.” About a decade ago, Spong rejected “theism,” i.e., belief in a personal God, which was the logical outcome of his ultra-rationalist rejection of everything supernatural. His website makes for grim reading, especially on Easter and Christmas.
Another Jesus Seminar scholar with a little longer shelf-life is Marcus Borg, who, at about age 68, represents the seminar’s virtual youth wing. In some contrast to Spong’s hyper Enlightenment faith in reason and science, Borg is more postmodern and mystical, open to the possibility of miracles and even an afterlife. He describes himself as a panentheist who believes that everything is a part of God, unlike strict pantheism, which asserts everything is God. Despite his mostly rejection of absolute truth, he is still adamant that Christian orthodoxy must be wrong, and that Jesus did not literally rise from the dead. He is open to “visions” and “numinous” experiences with Jesus. Recently Borg wrote: “The central meaning of Easter is not about whether something happened to the corpse of Jesus. Its central meanings are that Jesus continues to be known and that he is Lord. The tomb couldn’t hold him. He’s loose in the world. He’s still here. He’s still recruiting for the kingdom of God.” An Episcopalian, Borg often understands God’s Kingdom to be about advocacy of left-leaning political projects.
A friendly debating partner to Borg is Church of England Bishop and scholar N. T. Wright, who affirms the orthodox understanding of Jesus’ resurrection. In his book The Resurrection of the Son of God, Wright wrote: “No wonder the Herods, the Caesars and the Sadducees of this world, ancient and modern, were and are eager to rule out all possibility of actual resurrection. They are, after all, staking a counter-claim on the real world. It is the real world that the tyrants and bullies (including the intellectual tyrants and bullies) try to rule by force, only to discover that in order to do so they have to quash all rumours of resurrection, rumours that would imply that their greatest weapons, death and deconstruction, are not after all omnipotent.”
These “intellectual tyrants” were long ascendant in liberal Protestant academia for over a century. Despite their decades of turgid exertions, the fully resurrected Jesus remains as captivating as ever. Happy Easter!
About the Author
Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.
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Dee See| 4.22.11 @ 7:03AM
Even as Social Darwinism (ie EUGENICS)
is now the reigning belief system of not only our
shadow government, but much of the benighted
public (think Oprah's 'Lucky Genes Club' for starters)
---we learn that anyone believing in the second
coming of Christ is now officially being classified
as a 'cultist'.
Really folks, time to download some Calvin,
Bunyan and Gill.
REALLY
REALLY
Michael Tomlinson| 4.22.11 @ 8:23AM
Is Oprah Barack Obama's "John the Baptist?"
John Paul| 4.23.11 @ 11:47PM
I would worry more about whose John the Baptist Obama might be.
mames| 4.22.11 @ 1:39PM
In a strict sense we Christians worship a person so we are in fact a cult BUT the distinction always is, is the person you are trusting in worth trusting in? The object of our cult is the risen Christ who provided ample evidence of His resurrection and as predicted in the Old Test. "If he is not risen" , as Paul said, "then we of all people are to be pitied because we have believed a lie." It is clear that for the first deciples a metaphorical Jesus did not cut it. I have seen more than enough evidence to believe that Christ is exactly who he said he was, my Savior, friend and brother. No metaphorical Jesus or resurrection for me; just the real thing or nothing. Just imagine, if we Christians are right isn't worth investigating?
Alan Brooks| 4.23.11 @ 11:12PM
"They themselves typically and dogmatically assert Christianity's unqualified support for a redistributive welfare state, sexual liberation, and opposition to the American "empire."
Religion is important because it is fairy tales, we need illusions to carry on. Communism was a secular religion that didn't survive because it fostered even more violence in a shorter timeframe than religious warriors had done. However I agree with your opponents that America is an empire-- but not for long!
Alan Brooks| 4.23.11 @ 11:18PM
...you have noticed we are politically gridlocked and going economically bankrupt? or are you too drunk on your Easter wine to care?
Tina B| 4.22.11 @ 7:06AM
Yes, to all of you who know Him, love Him and serve Him, Happy Easter. He lives.
Michael Tomlinson| 4.22.11 @ 8:22AM
Amen Tina. May you and yours have a blessed Easter and the grace of God feel your lives!
Alan Brooks| 4.23.11 @ 11:15PM
No, He does not live. That is why we need Easter.
you don't need to memorialize someone who yet lives.
But do whatever you want, just count me out of your schemes and dreams. Jesus is to be loved, not you.
Michael Tomlinson| 4.22.11 @ 7:10AM
The empty tomb says it all. Christ is risen and through Him we have life eternal. No man can close that tomb or put Jesus back in it.
May the Peace and Grace of God be with you this Easter.
daddio| 4.22.11 @ 10:40AM
And the same to you Brother!
Alan Brooks| 4.23.11 @ 11:24PM
Yes, without illusions life is empty, whether it is the illusion of Marx's "laws of history", or the illusion of Christ's Resurrection, without childish fairy tales one can't go on.
But try to have the heart of a child-- not the mind.
FTM| 4.24.11 @ 7:57PM
Poor, poor Alan Brooks.
If there is no God and this Jesus guy was no more than a rabble rouser then why is it that you take so much time to deny? It's all a myth or a fairy tale used to pacify the prolotariat, right? If what you say is true then you're arguing with a four year old over the existance of Santa Claus. How can this be worth your time?
On the other side of the coin Alan, as my pappy used to always tell me, "hell ain't even half full yet." and Alan, you're going to be dead for a long, long time.
Alan Brooks| 4.24.11 @ 11:48PM
No guarantee you will live forever, either-- did you see the warrantee that came with you when you were born, FTM? did it say 'guaranteed eternal life for the titleholder'?
I don't say there is anything wrong with fairy tales-- as long as you don't take them too seriously. Jack and the Beanstalk is a good story to read to kids, but you don't think you can really climb a beanstalk up to the sky, do you?
Ryan| 4.22.11 @ 7:57AM
It's not just the empty tomb - a lot of the left is running from that pesky reason that Christ had to live, die, and be resurrected in the first place...
To glorify God in redeeming us from sin.
They don't like two things - that God is more important than we are, and that our sin is what separates us from Him.
Michael Tomlinson| 4.22.11 @ 8:21AM
AMEN Ryan.
daddio| 4.22.11 @ 10:41AM
I think this is the left in a nutshell, Satan's rebellion against God brought to Earth.
mames| 4.22.11 @ 1:48PM
And this is evident in so many protestant, Church Growth churches where sin is a dirty word. It takes courage to face up to who you really are and I believe the secular world says it well when it says , "it takes a man to admit when he is wrong." I would add that it takes our Savior to make that possible. Everything changed upon His rising from His bloody putrid death . Everything. Without His resurrection we would be justified in living the depressing life of these modern day "Greek" academics.
Alan Brooks| 4.24.11 @ 1:43AM
"I think this is the left in a nutshell, Satan's rebellion against God brought to Earth."
But not far rightists? white nationalists, libertarians, neo-Confederates, etc? there aren't many genuine conservatives around anymore.
Claypoole| 4.22.11 @ 8:22AM
Christ is risen. Christ lives and, because He lives, so will we, eternally. Praise God!
Michael Tomlinson| 4.22.11 @ 9:01AM
Good News!
PolishKnight| 4.22.11 @ 9:14AM
Although the author is correct that most Christians still believe in a physical resurrection despite the History Channel's documentaries, I personally stepped back from Christianity because of a documentary they put up explaining a section of the Bible I had never read: Revelations.
Behind the joy to the world and peace on Earth is a the dogma that this peace and eternal happiness will only be obtained after an apocalyptic war. Until then, nearly all faithful Christians sit in the ground. When I was a kid, I was told that my beloved friends and relatives were in heaven watching over me. This is not the case. After the History channel documentary, I carefully listened to the prayers I had been saying for a lifetime and recognized this reality. Nonetheless, people at funerals, even priests and ministers, continued to perpetuate the belief that judgment was instantaneous.
In addition, the apocalyptic belief system encourages society to be irresponsible. Why study philosophy and seek to improve humanity when God and Jesus are going to do the job anyway? Are there Christians supporting war in the middle east in the hopes of bringing the apocalypse to fruition?
This all can be summed up as a fundamental struggle that Jesus struggled with in his own time and criticized the church elders of his own time: Should a religion be about improving humanity or worshipping God? Are they ultimately the same thing? If they are, then why all the dogma dictating human conduct and behavior and why does it change over time much like the "living constitution?" Why don't Jews make animal sacrifices anymore?
It's ironic that as Christianity was secularized and the west embraced religion tolerance, the Marxist philosophy arose that made the state into a God unto itself and is now more popular than any religion. Perhaps this is because people crave a theologist state where the rules of reason and logic can be suspended hence Marxism worships the state as a God while decrying state religion...
the refudiator| 4.22.11 @ 10:25AM
Regarding your reference to the laws of Leviticus and Dueterotomy, I too find it confusing that the laws are no longer followed. The text makes it very clear that these rites are to be followed for ever. Christians will tell you that Jesus changes this covenant but, the text is very clear. Forever. An allknowing God would not state this, knowing that he would one day send Jesus to change the covenant.
Vern Crisler | 4.22.11 @ 8:30PM
There is no longer any sacred space, sacred time, sacred calendars, sacred food, or sacred menus in the New Testament era (although some churchmen still haven't gotten the message).
Christ has desacralized the world with his death & resurrection. Christ was the first great Secularist.
The reason is that ceremonial and ethnic laws were shadows, as St. Paul says. They were what one saw before the reality arrived. Once you have the reality, you no longer need to look at the shadows. That's why there was a change in the covenant. With the arrival of the reality -- Christ the Lord -- there is no longer any need for the sacred shadows.
Margie| 4.22.11 @ 8:44PM
Well said, Vern!
"But when the Pharisees heard that He had silenced the Sad'ducees, they came together. And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, to test Him.
"Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
And He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
This is the great and first commandment. And a second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.
On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets." Mt.22:34-40.
Michael OKeefe| 4.22.11 @ 11:39AM
Your reference to Revelations that all Christians are waiting in the ground for an apocaslypse is dead wrong, the soul unites in beatific union with God at the time of death for people in the state of grace and the body will rise at the end ot time!!
PolishKnight| 4.22.11 @ 12:00PM
I respectfully ask you, Michael, to provide some kind of scriptural citations to support your claim. Note that I specifically said "nearly all" with the exception of saints, etc. The text of the Bible, and the prayers and religious traditions clearly indicate that most of us sit in the ground until judgment day, soul and body alike (otherwise, what's the point of judgement day if most people have already been judged?)
Ryan| 4.22.11 @ 12:56PM
Revelation is a bit of a tough call, here, because it's well-nigh impossible to get to an exact interpretation of what John was seeing (after the messages to the Churches and before the judgment seat).
Christ Himself told the thief that "this day you will be with me in Paradise."
And it's true that a theology of Hell/afterlife wasn't all that well defined for the Hebrews (Sheol and all that). It just simply isn't addressed in the OT.
For Christians, however, Christ has some specific imagery (like Lazarus and the Rich man) that appears pretty instantaneous.
Have you tried stepping back, though, from what your own ideas of what is good and evil and look at what the Bible shows us, in spite of what you believe about Revelation?
About our sin and need for a saviour?
PolishKnight| 4.22.11 @ 3:32PM
Thta's the problem, Ryan. Lots of things aren't addressed in the OT or even very well in the NT for that matter making the Bible as a tool for salvation incomplete. So ultimately, we need to step back from the Bible and rest upon our own ideas. You, and many others, choose to interpret Christ's remark to the thief that he'll go to paradise that day to imply that everyone is judged immediately upon death which goes directly against Revelations' pretty clear wording.
Much of Christ's ministry was based upon him being able to break rules and commandments at will since as the son of God, he was like a King whose able to break his own laws. So he could easily grant a thief a break from waiting for judgement day while the rest of us wouldn't be so lucky.
Regarding the need for a savior. I think I heard that the Pope has agreed that Jews are entitled to salvation via an alternate path AND that the Jews argue that the Jewish faith makes it impossible for Christ to be the savior. This isn't just a matter of them saying they don't think he's the one. They're saying that by definition, he can't be it for a variety of reasons specific to the Jewish faith.
This makes the situation very similar, as I said above, to that of marxists who have their own need for a savior (big government) and in their own thinking, they probably have a point. While God is a bit harder to figure out and communicate with, a government that can declare budgets that reach the moon and back in 100 dollar bills deserves some respect.
I suppose at this point in my life I've become an agnostic. I hope whatever afterlife I do get, my beloved pets are there waiting for me. Catholicism says they won't.
Ryan| 4.25.11 @ 8:36AM
I think that "as a tool for salvation" there is plenty enough information. Christ's talk with Nicodemus in John 3 (including John 3:16) has pretty much the entire Gospel message wrapped up.
For a lot of the details, however, there is room for debate, and where we have denominations. I just attempt to leave those up to God as much as I am able (and as much as I enjoy talking theology).
Paul| 4.22.11 @ 12:11PM
Dear Polish Knight,
In response to you comments, "the apocalyptic belief system encourages society to be irresponsible," nothing could be further from Scripture. I offer two passages (there are many more).
2 Peter 3:14 - Wherefore beloved seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
Revelation 1:14-16 - His [Christ's] head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire; and his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; . . . and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword: . . ."
Society is encouraged to be irresponsible knowing they will face this (Him)?
Brian B| 4.22.11 @ 12:13PM
You are one confused cat, PK.
First the book is called The Revelation of Jesus Christ or [The] Revelation for short, not Revelations.
Second as Michael O Keefe points out, at death our spirit and physical body are separated. At the final judgment all those who have gone before will be given their eternal rewards and judged.
But those who put their faith in Christ are, like the thief on the cross, with Jesus in paradise as soon as they shuffle off this mortal coil.
For 'the refudiator'; Jesus Himself, Paul, the author of Hebrews and others, state many times, perhaps most explicitly in Romans and Hebrews, what the point of the law was and the necessity of the first covenant to demonstrate man's need for and to make way for the second, perfected one.
Its imperfection was due to our imperfect nature, not God's.
An all knowing God would precisely state these laws were to be followed forever knowing He would send the Christ one day, because as Jesus stated, He is the bodily and eternal fulfillment of the requirements of the law; requirements we could never keep. His blood sacrifice was once, for all, and imputed his righteousness to His followers, unlike the yearly sacrifices of the old covenant which only put off judgment another year and imputed no righteousness, but were merely foreshadowings of the real Lamb of God.
mames| 4.22.11 @ 2:14PM
Be very careful here. Apocalyptic millenialism is only held by some in the Christian world and only arrived on the scene in its current form in the 1850s. Did not Jesus say to the thief on the cross. "today, you will be with me in paradise"? He did not have to lay in the ground for centuries he was told TODAY. The interpretation you allude to is not the classic/historical understanding of Revelation. That book is written in a Jewish Apocalyptic style very foreign to our modern mind; it is in effect written in "code" and not to be taken literally outside of the context of Jewish numerology and animal analogies. Further Revelation is primarily a recapitulation of the promises in the old testament. Rev. contains more references to the Old Test than all the other books of the New T. Check out Hank Hannagraph's work on Rev and most orthodox, LCMS, and Episcopal sites for a more detailed understanding. I agree that the god of these "interpretations" is not the Christ of the Gospels and epistles. First rule of hermeneutics is to let the plain narrative passages help you understand the more difficult ones not the other way around. So much of the millenialist views are contrary to the very clear passages of the narratives in the Gospels and Epistles. In other words do go trying to understand what Rev says without understanding to the form of literature it was written in. Many believe that John wrote the letter in this form because the guards on Patmos would not understand it, let it pass and reach its destination in Asia minor where Jews/Christians there would understand it, they knew the code.
Michael Tomlinson| 4.23.11 @ 1:15AM
Did Jesus say the thief would be in paradise that day? Did he? Since the punctuation like the chapters and verses are a medieval addition be careful basing your theology on them. In the original Greek there were no chapters, verses or punctuation. A different placement of the comma gives an entirely different meaning to the text. While I salute the effort to make the Bible easier to understand with punctuation, verses and chapters I also accept that the Bishop's on theology influenced him in his work.
One must also be careful in basing a theology of death and the afterlife on the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. That was not a discussion of the afterlife, but of behavior and treatment of others.
When Jesus raised Lazarus from the grave he prefaced it with a discussion with the disciples where he described death as a sleep not a doorway to an ethereal plain of heavenly existence. Questions for thought: If we’re already in heaven why is there a need for the resurrection of the body? Transformed or not couldn't God just give us a new one in heaven? If Lazarus was already in heaven wouldn’t his resurrection have been a punishment? Why are the Bible writers silent about life in heaven or at least a brief description since they supposedly had an eyewitness in Lazarus?
While Christians may disagree on theology they can agree on one thing without Christ there would be no salvation.
Have a blessed Easter brothers and sisters in Christ.
David T| 4.22.11 @ 2:37PM
Polish Knight--Don't put too much stock in the History Channel when it comes to biblical interpretation, especially concerning the Last Things--death, judgment, heaven, and hell. Even sincere Christians disagree, but we can all agree that God's justice will right all wrongs in the end.
mames| 4.22.11 @ 3:00PM
Or as we call it "The Nostradamus channel"
Jeremiah Smirking| 4.23.11 @ 11:47AM
The Jews no longer make animal (blood) sacrifices because Jesus was the one, final, perfect, Eternal sacrifice. After His death, the temple was defiled by the dead who rose and gave testimony to Him, the Holy of Holies was destroyed, as the curtain was torn top to bottom. It's interesting that your faith was so easily shaken by a mere History channel documentary. Sounds more like you were looking for a reason to bail.
FTM| 4.24.11 @ 8:19PM
Polish Knght,
With all due respect...
First the book that you refer to is "The Revelation" or "The Revelation of Jesus Christ."
Second, in regards to bodily death, consider Einstein's Theory of Special Relativity in regards to your question of the condition of the soul. The answer that I think you seek is based on perspective. From our perspective in this here and now the person is dead. From the perspective of the person that is dead the eyes close in death and immediately open into everlasting life wether heaven or hell. Kinda like going into surgery, one minute you're groggy awake then you're groggy awake again in another place with a different bunch of people around. That's my take anyway.
The idea that the soul leaves the body and goes to heaven or to hell at the point of death comes from ancient Greek theology.
The Biblical account goes as such... The dead in Christ shall rise and we that are left shall join them and Christ in the air. That's where this idea of a "Rapture" comes from. Everybody that is left at this point will be present at the "Great White Throne" judgement. These are the folks that will be going to hell with the devil and his angels. Once again, I think that the folks that are dead will not realize any time lapse between their death and their ressurection. Also, the Bible says that we are not born to judgement.
Anyway, this is a long, long study with a lot of ideas to deiscuss and to grasp. I understand your confusion especially in light of "mainstream" theologians, the ones that will travel half way around the world to win a convert then make that convert twice the child of the devil that they are themselves. If you are intrested in continuing the conversation I will be happy to participate.
Kelly Staples| 4.22.11 @ 10:33AM
It is astounding that otherwise intelligent, well-adjusted people believe such a fantastic tale. So be it - but please keep your superstitions to yourself; they have no place in the public discourse or in the schools. Leave the children alone.
Stuart Koehl| 4.22.11 @ 11:25AM
Well, that's certainly a tolerant attitude. Should we similarly engage your superstitions?
PolishKnight| 4.22.11 @ 12:03PM
Hahaha! As if the left really leaves children alone and free from the dogma of Marxism! Marxism is the biggest theocratic religion of all time (and certainly has murdered more people than all religions put together.)
Most people do not become marxists in their old age. They adopt these treasured beliefs when they're young from TV, school or from their freshman year in college when they're craving acceptance from their peers. In the old days, people who wanted to be in the cool rebel club picked up smoking (to show that they were independent, and fit in.)
skip| 4.22.11 @ 1:42PM
It is astounding that anyone would take such a fantastic (so extreme as to challenge belief) risk over a belief based on faith alone.
"He who is not with Me is against Me" (Luke 11:23)
You make where you stand perfectly clear.
Good luck with that.
mames| 4.22.11 @ 2:26PM
Me thinks you protest to much. :) I have had a classical education that includes great exposure to other faiths and philosophies and their advocates and it has only served to strengthen my trust in The Christ who provides me with more evidence than any other choice out there. In addition the biblical world view sees the world as it really is ,warts and all, where other faiths ignore much of what is the source of our problems and strives toward a utopia they can never create. I say bring on the religious education bring on the comparative religion, if my Lord Christ cannot stand up to them them so be it - but he can and does. :) God Bless - Jesus said in the most audacious manner, "I am The Way , The Truth. and The Life; " - He is or He was a major lunatic and all of us who trust in him are foolish idiots..
Citizen Jerry| 4.22.11 @ 10:36AM
When those of the Jesus Seminar shuffle off this mortal coil, they're going to be very disappointed with their day's wages.
drgene| 4.22.11 @ 12:01PM
Au contraire Citizen Jerry:
You are the one who will be disappointed when,after your body dies, you awaken, as a spirit, in a world that will not be the real "Heaven"(a state of Life with ABBA) --but your own preferred alternative to "Heaven"--your own psychosomatic paradise in the sky(an unHeaven or anti-Heaven of your own choice--forever). Tsk Tsk!
Keep trusting Pauline Kerygma, and you'll be in for a very sad awakening. Paul's vision of the final future is Not Jesus vision at all!! But at least you can hang-out with Paul & friends forever. Isn't that what you really want?
Be careful what you hope for--for you will attain it, but only your own hope--not the real Heaven of Jesus.
Al Adab| 4.22.11 @ 11:13AM
Can it be only coincidence that the neo-pagans have chosen this day for earth day? We commit serious error when we worship the creation instead of the Creator. Idolotry in its many forms still runs through humanity and our society.
drgene| 4.22.11 @ 12:08PM
Isn't Obama worship even more idolotrous than Earth worship?
The Obama cult is truly Demonic(worship of the Great Liar and His Lies), the eco-cult is merely the epitome of anthropocentric self-indulgence. They
love the Earth because they love themself, and need an Earth that exists only to fulfill their own egotistic psycho-somatic fantasies.
Obama cult worships a False Messiah and His
Demonic Utopia(take the fruits of another's labors and give them to your own sycophant
dependents). Earth cults worship their own body--which Demands an Earth that serves their own
wishes:they worship themselve, not the Earth:
the Earth is reduced to a mere Servant of their own body's desires!!
Al Adab| 4.22.11 @ 1:52PM
You pose an interesting question drgene. I suspect that all idolotry is co-equally bad including the worship of Tolerance, Diversity and Choice through which we sacrifice our babies to idols. To worship a man as a false Messiah is clearly in the category. We are enjoined to be stewards of the earth not worshipers of Gaia.
drgene| 4.22.11 @ 11:50AM
Mark Tooley's caricatures of the Jesus Seminar scholars merely reveals his own love of kerygmatic naivete.
The modern hermeneutic search for objective criteria by which one can separate probable historical facts from clearly kerygmatic insertions
in the 5 Gospels and the Apocrypha is not merely American(Jesus Seminar)but mainstrean European(Roman Catholic & Protestant). But Europe has no need to pander to "Evangelical"
Christians and thier lust for Pauline kerygma.
Read all the narratives in the 4 canonical Gospels and the Christian Apocrypha(e.g. Gospel of Peter)
and you'll see the core fact here: there is ample room for reasonable doubt that the corpse of Jesus was miraculously revived--by direct divine intervention(deus ex machina)--appeared only in secret to his disciples, and then left by physical ascent into the sky.
The Kerygma focuses on one Judaeo-Christian bias and then creates & interprets data to suit that bias:they insist All humans(or at least the good ones) will rise bodily from the dead--like Jesus--and ascend into a heavenly world above to live in that risen body--forever.
Problem:JESUS nowhere promises such a future--even rejects it (MK 12 parLk,Mt and Jn11 dialog with Lazarus sisters)! Risen life is spiritual, sharing the Life of Abba Himself--not a new
fountain of youthful risen bodies in active psycho-somatic community of joyful rewards.
Ryan| 4.22.11 @ 12:59PM
How can Christianity work without Christ's resurrection, however?
Brian B| 4.22.11 @ 1:10PM
--Mark Tooley's caricatures of the Jesus Seminar scholars merely reveals his own love of kerygmatic naivete.--
Oh, brother.
The only caricatures I see are your not entirely successful attempts to sound 'scholarly' and 'objective' and your entirely inaccurate characterization of a basic Christan tenet, "All humans(or at least the good ones) will rise bodily from the dead...."
If you can't even get something that basic correct then you might want to put down the tweed jacket with the elbow patches and the pipe and revise your defintions of "scholar" and "objective".
skip| 4.22.11 @ 2:04PM
You idiot.
Your 'kerygma' is unadulterated drivel.
No where in all the treacle is there a point made valid enough to be considered even quasi-intelligent or pseudo-honest.
"..insist All humans(or at least the good ones) will..."
There are no 'good ones', there has never been a 'good one', there will never be a good one.
You are a stupid liar.
Happy Easter. It is a day specifically for and about you.
Ryan| 4.22.11 @ 3:05PM
Argh. That could have been done nicely.
skip| 4.22.11 @ 3:44PM
"(Theologians) are the vanguard of the true disciples of Jesus" (12:39pm)
"there is ample room for reasonable doubt that the corpse of Jesus was miraculously revived" (11:50am)
In other words, the 'kerygma' loudly proclaims theologians are truthfully Christlike while Christ is deceptively Satanlike.
I thought I exercised rather considerable restraint.
Ryan| 4.22.11 @ 4:32PM
Possibly, but it's rather hard to convince someone they're wrong while insulting them.
skip| 4.22.11 @ 5:02PM
As a general rule I believe you are correct.
In this specific instance the vocabulary, grammar, subject matter, and tone indicated otherwise, in my opinion.
Maybe I got the idiot's attention; a little doubt could do the stupid liar a lot of good.
No two snowflakes, no two stars, no two grains of sand, are alike. Humans? Yikes.
mames| 4.22.11 @ 3:08PM
The modern hermeneutic search for objective criteria by which one can separate probable historical facts from clearly kerygmatic insertions
And how did you determine "clearly"? That in iteslf is an assumption.
Akaky| 4.22.11 @ 12:16PM
I seem to be missing something here: if you are a Christian theologian who chooses not to believe in the historical accuracy of the Resurrection, then what is the point of being a Christian theologian? Unless, of course, it pays more than astrology, in which case I can see how someone would want to stick with it.
drgene| 4.22.11 @ 12:39PM
If your question is really an Honest query, here's the answer: Theologians are scholars--dedicated to the truth as the ultimate norm for all forms of subjective faith.
As scholars, who are Disciples of the Real(historical) Jesus, a religious genius,
they are obligated(as Disciples) to seek and understand Jesus own real religious teachings,religious life, and religious self.
That Requires a delineation of the data we possess on Jesus:kerygmatic, apocryphal imagination, historical, and even pieces of "autobiographical" data--alongside historical data from non-Christian contemporaries(e.g. Roman records).
Theologians, like spiritual pilgrims & mystic-saints, are the vanguard of the true disciples of Jesus--even when their discoveries do not echo the faith & kerygma of popes, bishops, priests, and ordinary(unscholarly)believers. The task of a real scholar-theologian is never easy--because believers (as was true of the priests & rabbis in Jesus time) prefer to hear their own voice, not the voice of Jesus(which contradicted so many of their most cherished beliefs, hopes, and way of life).
I hope this vastly simplified explanation, from a scholar-disciple of Jesus, helps. Let those who have ears, listen/hear!
David T| 4.22.11 @ 2:55PM
drgene--Not sure what your point is, but the first disciples of Jesus were fisherman, not theologians and scholars.
Lorenzo Dow| 4.22.11 @ 4:30PM
Hey Genie, I think you are more impressed than we are with your great learning, but few insights. Mr. Tooley has actually piqued your interest because he is writing about you. Shalom
Roger Pearse | 4.23.11 @ 5:05AM
Drgene, you don't seem to remember that theologians are people, that people are often assholes, and that "pursuing truth" is not what you are doing when you put out a radio broadcast on Easter Sunday jeering at the world's largest religion.
Rich D| 4.26.11 @ 12:00AM
drgene, you make no sense at all. A Christian follows Christ, i.e., the Messiah. If you disbelieve in the resurrection, then the "christ" you claim to follow is simply another common guy with the common name Jesus (Yeshua). Call yourself a Yeshuite.
Roger Pearse | 4.23.11 @ 5:04AM
They make money on it.
NaturalBorn Texican| 4.22.11 @ 5:33PM
Jesus is.
Period.
Nuff said!!!!!!
Wishing a blessed Easter to everyone!
Margie| 4.22.11 @ 6:12PM
One of the things I love about Jesus, is that He is the Word of God:
"By faith we understand that the world was created by the Word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear." Heb. 11:3.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God; all things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. In Him was life, and the life was the light of men." Jn. 1:1-4.
This is the same One who in Genesis created Man, along with God:
"Then God said, "Let Us make Man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." Gen. 1:26
It is written that when He returns, every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that He is Lord. Is. 45:23, Rom. 14:11.
How will we know it is Him?
"Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! He who sat upon it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on His Head are many diadems; and He has a Name inscribed which no one knows but himself. He is clad in a robe dipped in blood, and the Name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of Heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, followed Him on white horses. From His Mouth issues a sharp sword with which to smite the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; He will tread the wine press of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On His robe and on His thigh He has a Name inscribed, King of kings and Lord of lords." Rev. 19:11-16.
Therefore:
"If for this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at His coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all his enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." 1 Cor. 15:19-26.
"Every word of God proves true; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him." Prov. 30:5.
He is my shield, and I am happy to take refuge in Him!
Al Adab| 4.22.11 @ 6:51PM
Ahhh, Margie:
It is good to read The Word and to hear from you.
Margie| 4.22.11 @ 7:02PM
Al Adab,
As they say, I ((heart)) you, my brother.
Agape love in Christ, our Lord.
Tina B| 4.23.11 @ 8:47AM
Margie,
I logged off last night around 6 p.m. very frustrated at drgene's posts and that other woman earlier who said what she said.
I was having trouble myself posting my pitiful little reply to the idiocy of his support of the jesus seminar way of thinking. I tried three times to get back to my three little rants, and couldn't refresh to the comment I was trying to post. . . just as you were:
Making a joyful noise while posting the word of God so melodiously, in such a clear organized fashion, as a response to drgene and anyone who doubts the FULL Word of God as written and inspired by the Holy Spirit through the ages.
Thank you, thank you, thank you, it is all true.
As the late, great Rich Mullins said in his tune, The Creed, it is the very truth of God and not the invention of anybody!
Now I know why I couldn't post. My words were just that, my words. Sometimes I am inspired, but not last night. Those postings break my heart. Whenever I read words from the lost, It hurts my heart. And they were so adamant.
Your words were Life. They were Truth. They needed to be said at that moment in time, not my words. I love the Word too. God bless, Margie, and brothers and sisters in Him, and Happy Easter to you.
Margie| 4.23.11 @ 4:24PM
Tina B.,
How did Jesus chase away the Devil when he was tempting Him?
By quoting the Scriptures!
Jesus is LORD.
After He rose from the dead and appeared to His disciples, what did He say?
"And Jesus came and said to them, "All Authority in Heaven and on earth has been given to Me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age." Mt. 28:18-20.
He is with us, always!
Love you, Tina.
~Margie
WRJonas | 4.22.11 @ 7:41PM
I loved the line from dr gene ,"they prefer to hear their own voice, not the voice of Jesus."
It has the ring of truth.
skip| 4.22.11 @ 11:04PM
Physician heal thyself.
The doctor voices saccarine words mellifluous to his own ear as he ignores the voice of Jesus (the religious genius) on the central tenet of Christianity: the Resurrection itself.
The idiot ignores the only truth he voiced, when he listened to his own voice cast aspersions on not only the voice of Jesus Christ on the Resurrection and the Ascension, but on His corporeal body, post-crucifixion, physically eating and being touched in addition to speaking.
The refudiator| 4.22.11 @ 11:32PM
sincerely I want to believe but I cannot.
The Bible is too inconsistent to be the Word of God as I have pointed out. The previous poster fails to mention that Jesus states that he changes not a "jot or a tittle" of the law.
I find the Christians too war like, too much blood, too many rods of iron, too much OT, not enough NT. There simply has to be a better way. I do not mean to offend, to post this on a Holy Day. But, as a prior Christian, I am in a faith crisis after reading the Bible both Old & New & not being able to make sense of it. If the Bible was truly the word of God it would make sense in plain language to anyone. It does not.
Margie| 4.22.11 @ 11:55PM
The Bible is written by the Spirit of God and must be spiritually discerned. The only way you will be able to understand it is if you cry out to God for His help and for the forgiveness of your sins.
His promises are true and He keeps them. The Bible says that if we ask the Father through Jesus He'll answer but it has to be on His terms. You need His Holy Spirit in order to come into a relationship with Him.
Just ask Him, He will do the rest. He will do everything that is needed for you.
He will forgive all your sins, cleanse you from all unrighteousness, and give you His Spirit.
I know, because He did it for me.
"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" Lk. 11:13.
And remember what the man asked Jesus to do when He told the man that all things were possible to him who believes?
"Immediately the father of the child cried out and said, "I believe; help my unbelief!" Mk. 9:24.
He WILL help your unbelief, but you must want Him to.
God bless you.
David T| 4.23.11 @ 12:51AM
refudiator--The Bible is remarkably consistent in its message to love God and our neighbor. Jesus did not change the moral law, as summarized in the Ten Commandments. He holds us responsible--"if you love me, obey my commandments."
The refudiator| 4.23.11 @ 1:11AM
You should check out how the "love thy neighbor" stuff worked out for the Cananittes. Hint not good.
David T| 4.23.11 @ 2:51PM
Keep in mind that God created us and we are but clay in His hands. He loves us because He wills to do so. If He chooses to destroy us, who and what are we to resist? God commanded the Israelites to destroy the pagan Canaanite nations to eradicate sin in the land and prepare it to receive His holy people. Remember that King Saul was cursed when he refused to "utterly destroy" the Amalekites--man, woman, child, and beast--as God had commanded. We are to love our neighbor and even our enemy, but above all we are to obey God. "Obedience is better than sacrifice" (1 Sam 15:22).
RajR| 4.23.11 @ 12:21AM
The URL being repeatedly being given for the Institute on Religion and Democracy is incorrect.
The correct URL is: http://www.theird.org/
The refudiator| 4.23.11 @ 12:44AM
I do not mean to be offensive, but I get responses like this & they make no sense. If God created the world, he created logic. Logic has two basic states, true or false. There is no in between. There is no true today & false tomorrow. There is also no crying out to God to make what is false true.
The biggest mistake I made was reading the Old Testament. Christians should not be teaching that book. It is not consistent with the New Testament God. Read it & tell me I am wrong.
The problem we run in to is, it is all supposed to be the word of God. You cannot pick & choose scripture, that is clear. Jesus says he does not change the Law, he only fulfills it. So when Rosh Hoshana is listed in Deuterotomy as being celebrated forever, I think God meant it. When Isiah speaks of the dietary laws, I don't remember hearing a time limit, Acts or not.
Point is, If we were looking at the true word of God it would be very simple, without contradiction, with a law laid out for all time. But that is not what we see.
Instead see what the Council of Nicea has left us thanks to Constantine. We are reading a political document, one of the last vestiges of the Western Roman Empire. We have coopted Saturnalia as Christmas & turned the autumn equinox into Easter. We are simply continuing the Roman traditions by following this book.
Only an internally consistent book with some definably predictive value would have merit as a Holy Text. This will upset some of you but in my analysis the Bible is not this text.
As an aside, I share some of your concerns about what the future brings. My greatest fear, though, is what the Christians will do when they realize that Jesus isn't coming anytime soon regardless how bad it gets. I suspect some great rage against the absentee landlord when the rapture does not materialize.
Ryan| 4.25.11 @ 8:46AM
A God of mercy (Psalms) and wrath (Revelation) is completely consistent in the OT and NT. You're buying the argument that the left (and several Christian Cults) have been making for years.
We also cannot look at the Jewish law in a vacuum, particularly in Christ's statements about how it was fulfilled and about how Peter was not to declare certain things "unclean." The Jews had also denigrated much of the law and did not recognize what the intent of the law.
It is possible that the practices ARE eternal and we will practice them in an eternal, perfect setting. It wasn't the case in the NT and Jesus didn't call for it, however.
Michael Tomlinson| 4.23.11 @ 1:55AM
The dates for when we celebrate Christmas and Easter were not established by the Bible, but humans who as you point out co-opted the dates from their pagan neighbors. While the dates may be wrong what we’re celebrating, the birth and resurrection of Christ are real.
You’re wrong about the consistency of the OT and NT. The NT is predicated throughout on the OT. To truly understand the new you must know the old.
The problem you’re having is trying to impose your logic on the word of God and ignoring that it is a document written over centuries by different authors in different times. As one who believes in plenary inspiration (the thoughts and ideas are inspired) I recognize the human dynamic on scripture. The Bible writers were not God’s pens using automatic writing to pass along his message of salvation to the world. They were living breathing human beings who through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit convey to humanity the message of salvation within the limitations of their languages and historic milieu. That’s why Ezekiel had such a hard time explaining God’s throne and just wrote it down as, “wheels within wheels.” What does that mean? I really don’t know, but it isn’t ET’s spaceship that I’m sure of. Why the Greek in Hebrews is the product of a highly educated person and Revelation is the product of a Hebrew/Aramaic speaker trying to convey Hebrew ideas in Greek and having a hard time at it.
What book is internally consistent and fits your criteria for holy text? The Koran, polytheism of Hinduism, the philosophical musings of Buddha . . . Are you enamored with modern science that font of pseudo-religious notions like global warming and evolution (with its thousands of years, no millions or is it billions of years of creation)? Theories concocted by man to give meaning to lives unwilling to accept they are not the supreme beings in the universe.
Whenever Jesus’ comes it will be the right time and isn’t predicated on my wants or ideas.
Finally, set aside your pre-conceived notions about the Bible and ask God to guide you in your readings and studies. Ask for God's enlightenment. You don't have to believe in God (he believes in you) just do it and see if that helps.
The refudiator| 4.23.11 @ 3:03AM
I have asked for this guidance & have received only silence. I suspect I am beyond God's grace.
When I was younger I was a mathematician. In math we have consistency in multiple levels with predictive value. I am not aware of any holy text that meets these criteria. With math, we are able to construct & analyze almost magical things through science. I would suspect that the creator of everything to do much more with a text, through human writers or otherwise, than what we have been able to scribble out over the last 5000 years and especially the last 300 through essentially trial & error which is the scientific process.
My point is, the God that was able to create a universe so consistent that we humans are able to predict an eclipse 1000 years into the future should be able to produce a text that is internally consistent. Instead we are left with historical texts with conflicting messages & in some cases questionable lineage. We are left with an Old Testament full of a vengeful God, followed by the NT with a forgiving God. Supposed to be the same God. We are left with Jesus telling those in his audience that some of them will not taste death, 2000 years ago. We are left with Costantine picking & choosing what books get put in the Bible during the riot that was the Council of Nicea.
I want people to know that I respect your responses here & by no means do I mean to diminish anyone's beliefs. That being said, I just can't make sense of them.
Roger Pearse | 4.23.11 @ 5:03AM
You might like to know that the Council of Nicaea had nothing to do with the content of the bible. Please do a google search before posting such stuff -- this is a very tired old hoax. And there are loads more, aimed at people like you whom the authors know won't have the time or instinct to check anti-Christian claims.
Be sceptical. It's way too easy for us to believe things because they are convenient.
The refudiator| 4.24.11 @ 10:49PM
You are right. I had thought that this council had set the Bible but instead it set the canon for the church. Thanks for the schooling.
investorcs| 4.24.11 @ 1:09AM
There is outer form, and then there is inner substance. We first see the former, and then strive to understand the latter. The Old Testament is the form, the New Testament is the substance, and therefore the one that is most revealing and most important. Without Christ, the Old Testament is not alive, and we are all truly dead.
Finally, try to keep in mind the Fall of Man... Eve and Adam ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and thereby fell from grace. It seems that you vastly overrate knowledge, as if it is perfect unto itself. It is not.
investorcs| 4.24.11 @ 1:16AM
Christ is risen... Hallelujah, Glory to God in the highest!
Ryan| 4.25.11 @ 8:48AM
PLEASE read through the Psalms and Revelation, as I posted earlier.
You will see the God of Love and Grace in the former, and the Just God of wrath and proper vengeance in the latter.
Mark| 4.25.11 @ 10:03PM
You are a mathematician? All right then, explain to me about the imaginary number with logic. It doesn't exist, yet it does. Or let's look at physics. Explain the light paradox. Light is particles; light is waves. It can't be both, but yet it is. We live in a world of what you call contradictions, but I call paradoxes - two opposing ideas that lead to a deeper truth.
Rich D| 4.26.11 @ 12:05AM
The refudiator: "We are left with an Old Testament full of a vengeful God, followed by the NT with a forgiving God."
Maybe you are left with that, but the children of Israel knew grace - they had their sins forgiven with the sacrifices.
Margie| 4.23.11 @ 2:08AM
"In righteousness are all the sayings of
My mouth there is not a distorted or perverse
thing in them;
they are all straight to those discerning
and to the upright ones, to those who find
knowledge." Prov. 8:8 & 9.
Roger Pearse | 4.23.11 @ 5:01AM
Thank you, Mark, for this interesting and perceptive article.
It's hard not to feel sorry for these people, in a way. They sold themselves for the bright lights and the excitment of TV notoriety. Now they're old, and washed-up, and their agents don't ring any more. Sitting in the twilight, do they ever wonder if it was worth it?
zalos| 4.23.11 @ 8:24AM
My questions on the Holy week events would be: why God allowed the evidence for the climax of history to be on such shaky ground? I mean, not only we have nothing from Jesus' hand, we don't have anything written on the spot by his close followers in the actual language He spoke. The oldest evidence we have is copies of copies of copies of stories from at least 25 years later, written in an altogether different language. The icing on the cake is the fact that the oldest New Testament writings come from somebody (Paul) who never met Jesus, who never shared a meal with Him, who never quotes anything from the Gospels, never says a word about Jesus' actual teachings, but is only focused on His death and resurrection. And all he has as proof that he is an apostle, is a supposed encounter on the road to Damascus: again we have only his words for this, no witnesses, nothing. And this person goes on to formulate the main doctrines of Christianity!
I understand that there are supposedly ways, to reconcile Paul with the apostles, with Peter, council of Jerusalem etc, but the question remains: why should we have to go thru all the logical contortions? Why such shaky evidence for the climactic event in history?
JP| 4.23.11 @ 1:52PM
Zelos,
You might find this surprising, but most historical events of ancient times had few first hand account. It is mainly thought second hand sources do we learn much of anicent history. And in the scheme of Pax Romana, the crucifixition of an obscure man in an even more obscure and God Foresaken region of the Empire (Judea), we were lucky to find any accounts.
But we do have accounts of the Early Church, which go back to the First Century. We have written accounts of the Mass, the Eucharists, early beliefs and dogmas (the Diadache), martydoms, etc... We know of the first Bishops, Popes, debates, evangelizations, etc...
You'd have to be blind not to find evidence. Look and ye shall find.
zalos| 4.23.11 @ 10:56PM
That was precisely my question, why God would make use use same criteria of evidence for the climax of history, as we use for the Peloponnesian War? Was it to confuse us? Why charge Paul with formulating all main doctrines? Surely it looks like in order to confuse us.
Ryan| 4.25.11 @ 8:52AM
What would it really do for us to be given all the answers?
Are you certain we are not being given them and it is our limitations - not God's - that hinders us?
Also, remember, much of what was written was immediately intended for a particular audience at a particular time and place. We're the beneficiaries, and it's held up about as well as anything could in that perspective. Also, look at how it was preserved - you may be surprised at how few changes there really have been, and none that ever really mattered in the overall message.
Finally, there's the matter of faith. Are we to trust God or our own knowledge? Upon whose strength do we rely at that point?
Tina B| 4.23.11 @ 9:43AM
To refudiator, ex-mathematician? what about the fractal? Mathematics, yes, predictable, no.
God, my friend, created maths. He doesn't have to abide by it. He created logic, and imbedded into much of what goes on on this planet, even in this Solar System. But He doesn't live in time/space, He exists in eternity. Do you get eternity? We call it infinity in math. And imaginary numbers. Do they exist? in Math they do.
Eternity isn't governed by the laws of our earth. Finality, fulfillment, as a Law fulfilled in Christ. We can't comprehend that! Could my dog comprehend why I was crying when my husband, her best friend, died? ? No, she came to lie down by me, but could not comprehend my world.
I can't comprehend things but I can, however, apprehend many of them. I take it on faith that His complete Word is Truth, and vital to my well meaning attempt to comprehend my God and Savior, Jesus Christ.
Old Testament writings explain creation to me, and I believe it was so. Jesus referred to "six days" for God to create the "heavens and the earth" and He was on earth experiencing 24 hour days I assume. So, ifHe called it days, I believe Him.
I can even imagine it with celestial music, which I can't fathom but it's probably better than my favorite music, (heavenly math based?) and jamming as He created it all.
Why not? David danced before the Lord! Music is throughout the Bible and from the VERY beginning. In the OT there is a verse that declares which ancient was the first to make music. Wow.
I love the Old Testament. it explains so much about God. He said I was made in His image and likeness. Then I read He gets jealous. So do I. He gets angry. So do I. He Forgives. So do I. (Now.) He enjoys blessing people with gifts. So do I. He enjoys the company of humans. So do I. Liars, (Abraham), murderers(Moses), adulterers,(David) can all be rehabilitated and brought back to significance with God. (I can't rehabilitate, but I too have been brought back, forgiven and made whole again)
He gave us the Old Testament partly as a history of His relationship with His first people from Adam to Israel and beyond.
Then He gave us His Son. To be revealed to us a a sign of His love and His will for us. Thus three years of His life are there for us to experience. Some are eyewitness accounts, some are not. I doubt none of it.
Furthermore, I have faith that the same God who could create the awesome universe, and the awesome human body, could obviously manage to have His Word, which He claims became flesh and dwelt amongst us, kept intact and passed down in the desired form, through the ages, eventually in print for most of manind.
Now there is an internet and His word is being made known even to darkest Africa via wonderful cheap cell phones with techno donated by Christian charites and private donations. Now everyone can learn of God's history with mankind, through poetry, prophecy, and relationships recorded by men. Old Testament.
Christ is born in Bethlehem as pridected in Isaiah. Now a new relationship is revealed, the door to heaven is opened for all true Christ followers, and a promised afterlife with this same Creator. New Testament. Viola.
No conflict. Open your heart to Him again, let Him reveal His true Self to you this time. Jesus came for you. He died so you and I could doubt, and through Him, we could still be reconciled to Our Father.
He's calling you, but you must lay down your self first. Your preconceived notions of how you think it should be. Let Him reveal to you how it IS.
Margie| 4.23.11 @ 4:39PM
Beautifully spoken, Tina.
"We love, because He first loved us". 1 Jn. 4:19.
Kingofthenet| 4.23.11 @ 2:58PM
Make Believe is ALWAYS more captivating than Reality.
Mark| 4.25.11 @ 10:06PM
As a history teacher, I could write hundreds and hundreds of pages that would prove that statement wrong, Kingofthenet.
Tina B| 4.23.11 @ 3:12PM
Who is captivated? Maybe atheists, maybe the evolutionists, maybe the leftists, maybe the progressives, but me, I am not captured, or captivated. I am secure in the knowledge that I am redeemed, because He lives.
And I know whom I have believeth, and am persuaded that He is able, to take that which I've committed unto Him, until that day,
He lives and His Word is living and true. Kingofthenet or who ever you are, if you seek Him you will find Him.
Kingofthenet| 4.23.11 @ 3:29PM
Tina, do you ALWAYS live in Fantasyland? Why is YOUR made up Fantasy any more the TRUTH than Islamic Fantasy or Jewish Fantasy? What was the EVIDENCE that made you believe this Fairy Tale? Do you believe the Earth is 6,000 yrs old too? Or believe in Unicorns? Have you PERSONALLY seen Super-Natural events? Are you Superstitious? I am sure in MOST of your life you consider yourself a 'Rational' person and not prone to believing in things outside of nature, you don't believe is Superman or Zeus, Aliens and Bigfoot, why THIS?
Mark| 4.25.11 @ 10:12PM
For the love of all that is holy, if you are going to write a defense of atheists, Kingofthenet, would you do me a favor and write something that I haven't read hundreds of times before? Fairy tale? Zeus? Unicorns? Har dee har har!
Originality is not your strong suit, is it?
David Wilson| 4.23.11 @ 4:09PM
But for the jew Jesus was the corner stone they stumbled over as prophesied in the old testament.Of course the self righteous pharasees who condemned the general populace of sinners could never conceed that they too were sinners and could only be made righteous by God. And so it is today with the Jew. Like Cain they cannot accept that Jesus is the only sacrifice that is great enough to cover their sin and prefer to offer the wholly inadequate own works - which cannot cover a single sin in paying the penalty of the law that God's justice demands
David Wilson| 4.23.11 @ 4:13PM
Kingofthenet
Read the life of Jesus and ask yourself why did this god/man live.
And yes - I have seen miracles. I suggest you also read some of the books by Canon Andrew White the bishop of Bagdad and you will see God's love in action
Kingofthenet| 4.23.11 @ 4:28PM
I don't even believe a 'Historical' Jesus Existed:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/egypt.htm
Read,Learn!
Ryan| 4.25.11 @ 8:58AM
Too much goes against those assertions. The information we have was too close to the actual events - and never really refuted at the time - to have been made up.
99%+ of academics - including atheists - admit to the historicity of Jesus, even if they deny everything else.
Ken| 4.23.11 @ 5:10PM
Refudiator,
The OT Laws in Leviticus etc are addressed with great particularity to the chosen people of Israel. Unless you are one of the tribes of Jacob's sons brought out of Egypt under Moses, or their immediate heirs, the Levitical laws do not apply in all their details. Those laws detailed how the moral law given in the Decalogue would work out in the daily lives of ancient Israel.
Jesus, in His sermon on the Mount, written explicitly to echo and fulfill the the law given from Mt. Sinai, addressed that same moral law and expressed its outworking in a more universal, less particular way.
The destruction of the Temple by the Romans, prophesied by Jesus in His Mt. Olivet Discourse, ended forever the sacrificial system, already superseded by the sacrificial death of the Lamb of God.
The Jerusalem Council in Acts 15, already recognized that most of the civil and ceremonial code of the OT was not applicable to Gentiles coming to Christ.
The Grace of God, His steadfast love and His redemptive plan are consistent throughout Scripture. Any perceived contrast between the God of the OT and the NT is in the mind of the reader. He is holy, He is just, and He is merciful, from Genesis through Revelation.
Zalos, Paul's writings are indeed the oldest New Testament writings. Yet the apostles didn't object to them and the earliest Christians, including many who were eyewitnesses to the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, honored them and collected them, incorporating them into what the church would later recognize as the inspired Word of God.
zalos| 4.24.11 @ 7:18AM
Ken, the fact that Paul's writings are the oldest is precisely what troubles me, if this was part of God's plan. I know that you can bring up Jerusalem's council etc to reconcile Paul with the Apostles, but the question remains: why Paul? Skeptics may say that all this was written years later, after Paul's version had become dominant, and so Luke's account tries to reconcile Paul with Apostles, and you could not blame the skeptic. See what I'm saying? Why make it difficult for us? If this was really God' plan to intervene in history, then why not having Jesus write down his teachings himself? Or at least have one of the twelve write a firsthand chronicle of His teachings on the spot, on the original language He spoke (Aramaic), not leave us copies of copies of copies of narratives written tens of years later and in an altogether different language. God surely must have know we were going to squabble, even kill each other, over this issue for thousand of years, then why not make it clear and cut? By the way, I don't think Muslims have killed each other over interpretations of the Koran, because Koran was written by Mohamed firsthand, and was codified right away after his death. (Muslims have killed each other over who the rightful heir of the Prophet should be, but this is an altogether different matter, not related to the teaching itself). What did Paul do after the Damascus road encounter? Paul himself says in Galatians he did not confer with anybody but went away and preached his own gospel, then after 3 years (a pretty long time for a fledgling new faith) stayed with Peter for 15 days. The skeptic may say here that maybe Paul said to Peter "Look you guys are fishermen and such, you are illiterate. Let me explain to you what Jesus was all about" and Peter agreed. And again, you could not blame the skeptic, could you? Then Paul saw the apostles after 14 years.
But what is Luke's version? Luke says instead (in Acts) that Paul went to see the Apostles and shared his vision with them right away. Pray tell me, what is going on here?
Ryan| 4.26.11 @ 8:19AM
Found a good article that helps answer this:
http://ap.lanexdev.com/APConte.....rticle=782
Google is a VALUABLE resource, because there's plenty of Christian scholarship on a lot of the questions that you are positing. You're not the first to ask them, and there are plenty of guys out there who are compiling the answers.
Here's the problem with your questioning.
Do you have an issue with the authenticity of scripture, or with the overall message of the Gospel - that we are sinners and cannot obtain salvation apart from Christ?
You can ALWAYS find issues with nitpicking about scripture. Usually, from what I can see, the issue is never really about authenticity. It's about dealing with the core message.
Dee See| 4.23.11 @ 10:22PM
"John Calvin was America's REAL founding father."
-George Bancroft
America's First Historian Emeritus
1830
Bancroft was there.
Further, always very important to remember
the American republic was modelled NOT on
Greece or Rome ---but on Switzerland and
the Netherlands --the two centers of Calvinism.
ON RECORD FACT
REALLY do pull those Rockefeller Arminian
'World Council of Churches' implants out of your brain, out of your soul, before you die.
REALLY DO.
Tina B| 4.24.11 @ 8:05AM
Fantasyland? No, I grew up next to Disney, and it was easy for me to tell the difference between what Jesus Christ could and did do and what Walt Disney was capable of. Christ changes lives. Saves them, delivers them, whatever is needed, when His children ask Him. He promises us that and He keeps His word.
Maybe you should try asking Him for something, according to His will. Maybe He'll recognize your voice, maybe you're one of His children. Only problem is, you don't seem to want to know Him. So that may be what is keeping you from knowing Him.
Your choice, because that is how He works. He lets us make choices. We are not forced to believe what you call a fantasy and I call truth. I have seen Him and His works. I choose to say He lives.
Happy Easter today and forever!
PJ| 4.24.11 @ 10:01AM
For those who have been trained to think logically & also question the reality of Jesus' resurrection maybe this essay might help you to begin to understand why there are so many who do believe but have never seen. Please read this wonderful essay: http://www.americanthinker.com.....blood.html
Have a blessed Easter to all.
Kingofthenet| 4.24.11 @ 10:31AM
Well the 9/11 Hijackers 'gave their lives' for what they believe are we to interpret what they believe to be the truth than?
Tina, I don't believe there is ANYTHING I can say to you to see things differently, so All the best and Happy Easter!
Ryan| 4.25.11 @ 9:00AM
Many men will give their lives for what they believe to be the truth.
No one gives their lives for a lie.
The apostles were martyred. Every one but John (who was exiled and practically martyred).
Bill Sundling| 4.24.11 @ 10:41AM
Most of the New Testament books were written within 30 years of the death and resurrection of Christ. The books were copied and sent throughout the Roman Empire. They were in circulation at a time when Christianity would've been exposed if it had been false. Paul said,
(1 Cor 15:3-9 NIV) For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, {4} that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, {5} and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. {6} After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. {7} Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, {8} and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. {9} For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
zalos| 4.25.11 @ 7:01AM
Bill, the fact that Paul, who never met Jesus, is providing us the oldest NT writings, should make anybody stop and think twice. Why Paul? Nobody among all the posters here has replied to my questions directly, they all give me Paul's verses in return.
Can you imagine how Christianity would have looked like, if we only had Mark's gospel in our possession?
Ryan| 4.25.11 @ 9:04AM
Paul told his audience that there were people who saw Christ still alive.
They could go find them if they needed to.
In Acts, Luke - who technically wrote MORE than Paul - was attesting to all these things. The Apostles confirmed Paul as one of their own.
Why Paul? Because His RADICAL conversion from being the worst of persecutors to the biggest evangelist of the day gives his story credence....as does Peter in II Peter.
zalos| 4.26.11 @ 6:57AM
Ryan, here you are judging the ancients by today’s criteria. Do you think Paul’s audience would rush to look up the daily newspapers to confirm his claims about the famous 500? There are three things to bear in mind here: 1. The Life of St Genevieve, circa 5th century AD, was put in writing less than 10 years after her death and is full of most incredible “miracles” (monsters springing up from trees etc). Yet there’s no evidence anybody among the audience ever challenged its veracity.
2. The Mormon religion is based on Joseph Smith’s word only, without a shred of independent evidence, zero, nada, zip. Yet it became a world religion in less than 150 years, without never holding any political power whatsoever. What can we say about the Christian (Paulian?) religion which became the official religion of the most powerful empire in the world? Also enjoyed absolute power for like 1000 years?
3. We all know that people believe the most weirdest things today, in the information age, right? When you see the huge followings commanded by the likes of Ken & Gloria Coppeland, Benny Hinn, Todd Coontz, and all their ilk in today's America, what can you expect from the ancients 2000 years ago?
As for Paul’s conversion, I don’t see what it has to do with anything. World history is full of such dramatic conversions among religions, ideologies etc.
I guess Paul’s doctrines may be OK if he had at least expounded the teachings of his master. But no, he never quotes anything from Him, nothing from the Gospels either, not even a word on the virgin birth. As far as Paul is concerned, Jesus was born (of a woman), died and rose again, never did anything else during all those years of His public ministry (imagine the American President sending his close adviser to interpret his latest and very important speech and all that the guy does is talk about the meaning of president’s hand gestures, facial expressions and the way he exited the stage, would you believe such a guy?)
I'm not saying Paul cannot be believed, but it really must take a lot of faith, and it cannot be done based on logic and historical evidence only, as a lot of posters here seem to imply.
Ryan| 4.26.11 @ 8:33AM
Points (1) and (2) are actually related. For St. Genevieve, those stories arose in an era more or less friendly to Christianity.
The Roman Empire was quite a bit hostile to Christianity, particularly in its early stages. There were attempts from every side to try and disprove it (and the Bible even mentions the attempts by the Jews to state that Christ's body was stolen).
But you're right - it doesn't disprove your point that just about anyone will believe anything in any age.
About Paul not "expounding" Christ's teachings, I get what you're saying, but there's not really anything that is contradictory, either.
There, however, are a LOT of echoes.
http://fourpointcalvinist.blog.....mothy.html
It IS pretty evident, when you compare a lot of statements, that Paul probably knew what Christ said, and they BOTH often quoted out of the Old Testament.
However, that doesn't answer what is probably the bigger issue at hand, I think, that I posted about earlier.
Are you really disturbed over contradictions (which you can continually bring up), or is there something bigger at hand here? From some of the things that I have seen, it's never really about the contradictions.
It's about the core message. It's about the Gospel.
zalos| 4.27.11 @ 7:32AM
Ryan, usually people don't seem to have problems with the core message of the Gospel, but it then depends how one defines the core message. Some say the core message is Jesus' teachings themselves, and it's a pretty logic position. It's mostly about a very high moral living etc. But then Paul comes along and says the core is that Christ died for our sins. So which one are you going to choose. Not only this, but those who follow Paul's core would tell anybody that trying to live a moral life will not get you to Heaven, and it may rather prepare you for Hell as "your good works are as filthy rags to me" according to the OT quote they would throw on your face all the time.
So which one is it?
Tina B| 4.24.11 @ 6:28PM
And to you KOTN. By the way, the article at the AmericanThinker link posted above is entirely appropriate to refute some of what you posited this morning. Thanks for your kindness and have a good week, Sir.
Kevon Dunn| 4.25.11 @ 10:54AM
Mark Tooley is dead right about the physical appearance of the people who mysteriously materialise to attend such gatherings of progressice churchmen. They tend (men and women both) to be bald, to have halitosis that should be outlawed under the Geneva convention,have hairy ears and to display excessive amounts of the theological vice our great-grand-parents categorised disapprovingly as "Enthusiasm." One gets the idea most of them are still stricken by the fall of the Berlin Wall.
Kevin Dunn| 4.25.11 @ 11:00AM
Another point: thank you, Bill Sundling, for your quotation. The great point about it is that it has a ring of truth to it. A man making up a story 2,000 years ago, before all the modern techniques of nattative fiction have evolved, would simply not have written like this.
Mark30339| 4.25.11 @ 12:28PM
If we can't pick the Triduum as the time to promote harmony, what time should we pick? Mr. Tooley, you are far too talented to be goading us into a fight over the Jesus Seminar. Your idea of Easter fun is to kick that old dog and pander to self-righteous dismissal of old foes. Death comes to us all -- as well as denial and apprehension over that certainty. Is this life a cosmic accident or a journey filled with meaning? The life and teachings of Jesus confirm the latter. Should we be indignant and offended for our Lord when scholarly types seemingly twist and distort essential truths about Jesus? Disappointed perhaps, but the message I get from my relationship with the Lord is that He's pretty well adjusted about these sorts of things and doesn't need us to mete out punishing retributions. Do you think His resurrected body is dancing on the grave of Robert Funk?
Tina B| 4.25.11 @ 4:55PM
I appreciated the over 100 responses involving my Savior and yours, and all the wonderful arguments made, and some of the honest questions being asked. Great thread to be read over the past three days! Thanks to many of you, I thought about Christ, His death and Resurrection even more than usual over the commemorative weekend. Once again thanks TAS readers and responders.
(I also got to attend an outdoor non-denom worship service with about 500 people who sang, one guy did a short rap, some old hymns and some contemporary Christian songs, great reminder about the purpose of the cross in the sermon, lots of children and food) All in all you also helped make it a very Happy Easter Season. Hope others enjoyed the same.
C Smith| 4.27.11 @ 1:42AM
"Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death" (1Corinthians 15:12-26).
zalos| 4.27.11 @ 8:58PM
C Smith, I really hope you don't use this kind of argument in your everyday life. Like telling somebody (even very assertively so) that pigs fly, and then responding to their disbelief by saying "if they don't fly, I'm going to be very upset!"
This is what Paul basically says here: if no resurrection, I'm going to be very upset.
!!!
Creative Recreation | 8.10.11 @ 9:55PM
is good