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Capitol Ideas
Afghanistan: The Futile Conflict
Now in its 10th year, it could drag on a lot longer.
(Page 2 of 2)
Actually, they don’t really have rights in most of the Muslim world. Theirs is a system based on power and force, and in such a world men indeed can easily dominate women, and do. Maybe instead we should try converting them to Christianity? (Just kidding. Even to suggest such a thing shows how far we have traveled down the road of relativism.)
It’s true that America’s position in the world has declined, compared to other countries. But the great mistake has been to think that this can be remedied by seeking out countries that can be treated as military targets. Launching armed crusades against selected foreign countries is a military response to a cultural problem.
A lot of people in America would like to see a revival of the West, myself very much included. But that will require a revival of religion. What caused its decline? It is poorly understood, but I believe that rising prosperity brings moral laxity in its wake. That may be the key. American elites, with their persistent negativism about the human race (trees good, people bad), have also played a role in demoralizing the middle class. The rise of Islam over the past generation is mainly a response to the decline of faith-Christianity in particular. Islam is moving into the vacuum, and dropping bombs on them won’t do any good.
About the Author
Tom Bethell is a senior editor of The American Spectator and author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science, The Noblest Triumph: Property and Prosperity Through the Ages, and most recently Questioning Einstein: Is Relativity Necessary? (2009).
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btims| 3.30.11 @ 6:18AM
The problem as I see it is...... After 9/11, we had an enemy who had attacked us. We were correct in going after them and we were successful in Afghanistan initially. But just like Iraq's initial success, we stayed too long. Liberalism triumphed. Bush was a liberal republican and believed in "universalism" (all people are the same, all cultures are equal).
This is a mistake. Islam is fundamentally incompatible with an individual-based, constitutional republic, which is our tradition.
But our political leaders today (of both parties), strongly believe in universalism, and it's associated policies: mass immigration, multiculturalism, so called "diversity", etc. These are all variations on the same theme - universalism.
I reject that philosophy. To show you how foolish we are, remember, since attacking us on 9/11, we have increased Mohammedan immigration into our country. How stupid is that? They are now rapidly spreading this religion/culture/politics (Sharia Law) throughotu the United States. It's basically too late at this point. Importing half of Mexico and Central America as well as Muslims, will make the USA a third world country, where most everyone is dependent on the government for money, healthcare, pension, etc. World socialism has triumphed.
Alan Brooks| 3.30.11 @ 10:29AM
Ashcanistan
JFGalt| 3.30.11 @ 12:52PM
The problem in Afghanistan began when we got distracted by the folly of Iraq. The CIA and SF had Bin Laden in their sights at Tora Bora but NMCC refused to send in the Rangers as a blocking force and left the back door wide open. Its all been downhill from there. The Taliban resurfaced and its been a wasted effort since then. The Military Industrial Complex has been using our troops as pawns. We spread money around like there's no tomorrow but it only buys allies that will be gone tomorrow. Opium cultivation flourishes. Pull our troops out and then nuke the place. With everyone dead we can claim victory and then with all that radiation nobody will be as upset with Japan for all the radiation they are spreading. Gonna happen? No way, too many pipelines to be built.
Dai Alanye | 3.30.11 @ 2:20PM
Bethel is probably correct when he says bin Laden is dead. We haven't seen the man in person or video since Tora Bora, and I expect his bones lie there in some sealed cave.
He also cites Bob Woodward as a source, however, and this is almost certainly unwise. Woodward writes his books and does his reporting with an agenda in mind. He's untrustworthy.
As for Afghanistan in general (and other places) we seem to focus on top-down imposition of European-style government rather than starting in the villages with encouragement to representative government. Start small, work your way up to kicking out the corrupt appointees of Karzai one by one, ending with his brother. Don't make a fetish of "Democracy." Such an approach might stand a chance where the present one seems doomed.
l5j6| 3.30.11 @ 2:41PM
In fact, what "military-industrial complex"? I mean, our armed forces are a fraction of what they were just 20 years ago. Plus, we simply don't have the engineering/manufacturing we had back then. It's gone.
We are now, Subsidy Nation. More internet porn please! We don't DO ANYTHING anymore, we chat about feelings.
Oprah Nation with an Oprah-endorsed President. LoL
l5j6| 3.30.11 @ 2:39PM
I for one LOVE the EVIL 'military-industry complex".....I really do!
Better it than the lib-tard, government-media complex. How much money do they waste and spread around in order to buy votes?
Kenny| 3.30.11 @ 6:34AM
What's going on if Afghanistan is not a true war but an excerise in nation building with the military doing the work in a part of the world where no decent nation can be built.
It will not work. And besides, Max Boot, the neocon not withstanding, Afghanistan is not worth the cost in terms of AMERICAN blood and money.
Stuart Koehl| 3.30.11 @ 10:12AM
Nation building, in the long run, is a lot cheaper than an endless succession of punitive expeditions.
JFGalt| 3.30.11 @ 12:54PM
Dude, Nation Building doesn't work! Besides, there is no nation to build there. What you have are thousands of tribes run by warlords with their own 12th century interests which granted are comparable to most of todays corporations and Wall Street execs.
Harry the Horrible| 3.30.11 @ 2:23PM
It would work if we were ruthless enough and forgot about silly concepts like "democracy."
Just find some tribe marginally friendly (or less hostile) to us, with a competent, ruthless leader, and help them to supremacy over all their rivals and let them do the dirty the work. Get them to exterminate the Taliban and Al Qaeda supporting tribes; they can have the women and the loot for their troubles, plus whatever money and weapons we throw in.
Occasionally remind them how much their rivals hate them and how long they'd last without our support.
That should keep the peace until the ruthless, competent leader dies (or softens - same thing).
Gr0w1er| 3.30.11 @ 11:30PM
Post-WWII Germany & Japan.
Sheila| 3.30.11 @ 12:41PM
So true - just like Libya, neocons Kristol et al not withstanding.
Watch the "export democracy now" crowd here go wild.
Decline and fall.
White Coats| 3.30.11 @ 6:04PM
The Neocons are coming to take you away! hee hee hoo ha hee hee!
They're coming to take you away!
Intelligent Design| 3.30.11 @ 7:21AM
We should get out of Afghanistan yesterday. It's a bottomless pit. The interests of the U.S. would be much better served if we let the various tribal and Muslim factions fight and kill each other. And we would save hundreds of American soldiers lives and hundreds of billions of dollars to boot.
Stuart Koehl| 3.30.11 @ 10:13AM
And when they are done fighting and killing each other, the winners will be coming after us. Great strategy, that one. Ignoring Afghanistan after the Soviet withdrawal got us to 9/11.
Wade Smith| 3.30.11 @ 12:42PM
Who said ignore them? We can support the most pro-USA faction. If another faction threatens the USA we can send them cruise missiles and other assorted items.
JFGalt| 3.30.11 @ 1:01PM
Wake up! The Afghans didn't do 9/11. That was maybe Al Qaeda who are a portable group. Afghanistan was doing its own thing and that was growing the world's opium. We hit Afghanistan because it looked like an easy target. We learned nothing from the Soviets or Viet Nam. A large army against a decentralized enemy that blends into the population. The will to win there was an illusion if not an outright joke. Wars are not meant for winning anymore. When you win a war the buying stops. War is for making money and influencing power. Stop wars and you've got a lot of people with nothing to do. Our troops are being used as pawns and the people that do it wrap themselves in the cloak of patriotism and dare you to stand up to them and have your patriotism called into question. Neat trick isn't it. The real patriot does stand up to them but their ranks remain small because people have yet to wake up to the truth that OBAMA! has shown us. That is that Republicans and Democrats don't matter - they are all the same crooks. The ruling class has their agenda and they don't care about the rest of us. We are just tools for them to use and throw away.
l5j6| 3.30.11 @ 7:41AM
Here, here......if muslims are killing muslims, where' s the problem? I say let 'em!
All American American| 3.30.11 @ 8:17AM
The author speaks of the dilemma of to stay or go in Afghanistan, and then he drops this nugget:
"Afghans also believe in God."
Really? What "god" is that? Have you READ a koran? Whatever allah is he most certainly IS NOT the God of the Bible. And therein lies the problem.
These wars dragged on and will continue to drag on until we acknowledge the Truth (capitol T). What Truth? Well we can start with islam. It gets sickening to read "conservative" authors write stuff about all the evils committed in allah the moon god's name and then put in the dhimmi, cowardly caveat "but not all muslims are terrorists." Or in this case "Afghans believe in God."
Nonsense. This "god" who sanctions terrorism, pedophilia, rape, murder, deception, theft, and unjustified war? Tell me, are those traits you associate with the One True God?
No, we will continue to bleed money and treasure and young lives in these places because we fail to admit the Truth. When PC nonsense-talk like "islam is a religion of peace" or "Afghans believe in God" guides your actions you are bound to fail. And what's behind the PC-nonsense talk?
Fear. Fear to speak freely about what islam is--you'll become the target of not only the kook muslims but in some places YOUR OWN GOVERNMENT'S "speech codes." We are becoming self-imposed dhimmis, and tell me dear readers, whose agenda is that?
Pelligrino| 3.30.11 @ 10:04AM
Thank you, AAA. islam is not a religion. It is something straight from Satan himself. muslims are Satan's emissaries on this earth.
We need to deport all muslims now. No new entries. No student or travel visas.
Or do you like active, growing cancer in your body?
This has nothing to do with freedom of religion; islam is not a religion.
This is rather obvious.
On our present trajectory/spiral, the USA will no longer exist in 2030. We either do something about this or accept our fate as something we deserve.
There are 48+ muslim dominated countries in the world. None of them are successful by even the most basic of measurements. All are cesspools.
Sheila| 3.30.11 @ 12:43PM
Well said, All American American.
Alky| 3.30.11 @ 4:48PM
Should just pull all the military out of all foreign countries and send them to the US borders and keep everyone out that can't show a good reason for coming in. Let the rest of the world kill themselves off, who needs their BS anyway!!!
Old Soldier| 3.30.11 @ 8:46AM
Classic mission creep.
We went there to kill and / or disperse AQ and their Taliban hosts. Mission accomplished about 8 years ago. Many more of the hardcore rushed our Soldiers and Marines in Iraq and met their end there.
It was time to leave years ago. No reason we can't go back if necessary. There are far bigger things happening in the world right now.
Stuart Koehl| 3.30.11 @ 10:10AM
Can't do that original mission unless you remake Afghanistan into a place where the Taliban and al Qaeda cannot return and take root. There are only two ways to do that: (1) turn the entire country into a sheet of radioactive glass; (2) turn the country into a stable and relatively pluralistic parliamentary state--if not necessarily a Jeffersonian democracy, then the closest thing that can pass for one in that part of the world.
Charles R. Williams| 3.30.11 @ 12:06PM
No 2 cannot be done. And the argument for nation-building in Afghanistan can be applied to Somalia, Yemen, Benghazi and Sudan. But if no 2 can't be done in one place, it certainly can't be done in 5 places simultaneously. And then of course, there is Pakistan.
We need to stay in Afghanistan in a low cost way that facilitates punitive expeditions. We need to work with warlords and proxy armies to inflict pain on anyone in Afghanistan or the border regions of Pakistan hosts terrorists.
A hundred years of British style colonialism in Kabul might create a modern Afghanistan and then it might not. Who cares as long as it is cheap in terms of American lives and $.
JFGalt| 3.30.11 @ 1:04PM
Sorry, I think option 1 will actually yield the best results. That would send a serious message wouldn't it.
Old Soldier| 3.30.11 @ 1:56PM
Stuart - Are you high? We have a better chance of making New Jersey a place where dandelions can't take root.
Let them live in their stone huts and do as they please. If they start hosting terrorist groups again, we have Rangers and UAV's to stomp them back down.
Who Knows?| 3.30.11 @ 9:41AM
Maybe in a most basic way, TIME and SPACE are what we need to use to understand the human situation.
First, I think we have to understand that there is an ongoing war between civilization and barbarism. And, essentially, in grossest terms, that means the less evolved humans who are dominated by animal traits = barbarians are locked in a struggle to the death with more evolved humans = civilized people.
Also, in these “last times”, the role of barbarians is most vitally being played by the radicals leading Islam. This “religion” can be seen to represent the TIME of, what, 800 A.D. And, the civilized West is led by the 2011 country of America.
What is the simplest PHYSICAL fact about the mass of humanity in the Moslem set?
Over TIME, they are breeding like rats, and spreading their protoplasm throughout and within the civilized world. Read Mark Steyn.
So, I’ve reluctantly come to the “survivalist” conclusion that the West, led by the indispensable nation of the USA, should “conquer” the barbaric wild lands.
Think of it like our “manifest destiny”, or “Go west, young man!”
Americans are just SO RICH, compared to the poor bastards in places like Libya and Afghanistan, leave alone wretched places like Bangladesh or most sub-Sahara Africa.
Therefore, the “settlers”, aka soldiers, can be considered force multipliers, whose very presence as the GOOD GUYS will, over TIME, win the hearts and minds of the backward and needy people in those places.
Stay the course, America!
Furthermore---too many Americans, themselves, are way too isolationist.
Another simple way to understand the civilized- barbarian divide is as follows---the first “world” peoples are characterized as win-win types, and the third “world” peoples as lose-lose.
How’s that for a black and white analysis?
Ergo, just as all countries of any worth find it in their own best interest to have embassies in other countries, it is absolutely TIME for America, as the leading civilized country, to ALSO send emigrants into ALL the other places. If it needs to be soldiers, that’s the way the cookie crumbles
Soldiers first, businessmen second, tourists third, NGO’s always, as soon as it’s safe!
“Getting to know you, getting to know all about you…..”
“To know, know, know Him, is to love, love, love Him….”
May the ugly American morph into the beautiful American!
STAYING power---that’s the ticket!
Let’s ride the barbarians like a bronco-busting cowboy, until they are tamed.
After all, what EXISTENTIAL choice does the civilized peoples have?
Do or die.
Don’t do = die.
Simple rules for civilization.
Stuart Koehl| 3.30.11 @ 10:08AM
"This is a mistake. Islam is fundamentally incompatible with an individual-based, constitutional republic, which is our tradition."
So, we remake Islam in our own image, the way the Brits remade Hinduism into something civilized people could tolerate. It can be done, and it is worth doing.
Let's remember that we did succeed in taking Japan, a country with no history of constitutional government or popular sovereignty, whose animist religion was centered upon a god-emperor, and turned it into a functioning liberal democratic society.
In the long run, nation-building is going to be a lot cheaper than fighting an endless series of conventional wars against unreconstructed failed states, or worse, a continual battle against terrorists waged upon our own soil.
btims| 3.30.11 @ 10:53AM
Are you willing to send your son to fight and die for Mohammedans, while the immigrate to our country and quickly are building mosques across America?
We succeeded in Japan because we totally destroyed Japan, they had no choice but to go along with us. We were in a much more powerful position at the end of WW2 than we are today. Furtheremore, the Japanese were in one place, that being Japan. Muslims are spread everywhere in the world and much, much more numerous than the Japanese (approx. 1.2 billion today).
Don't get me wrong, I am all in for striking back and striking hard against Islam when the time calls for it (after 9/11). But I am against allowing Muslims to immigrate here while we are supposedly fighting a war on "terror". The real enemy is Islam, we are just too timid to say it publicly. Of course, our poltical elite doesn't really think Islam is the enemy, they think Muslims are just people who we need to create more social programs for and then they will be turned into good little liberal democrats (small 'd').
This is wrong. Islam is a religion and a political ideology. It will not be changed by Bush, Clinton or Obama. It has survived for 1400 years and considering the number of faithful, it will likely outlive us.
Separationism is a better policy. Have less and less to do with the Islamic world and also restrict their immigration growth in our country as well. Strike them militarily when needed but don't nation build in their rat-hole "nations".
Sheila| 3.30.11 @ 12:45PM
Good comment, btims, with one emendation - don't "restrict their immigration growth," but rather bar them from this country and deport those who are here. Muslim and patriotic American are contradictory terms.
Decline and fall.
btims| 3.30.11 @ 3:30PM
Thanks Sheila....we can only hope. I would love to stop their immigration, deport those already here and in fact, deport all illegal immigrants. That would reduce our population by 20 million at least. Open up many more jobs for American citizens.
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.30.11 @ 10:14AM
OK Stuart,
following on with your advice and counsel...let's nuke the crap out of them.....THEN after we have their attention.....like we had Japan's..... seal them off until they learn how to behave in polite company.
Ammo Guy| 3.30.11 @ 10:29AM
Sadly, this option is probably the most likely to succeed…though, of course, the most unlikely to be employed short of an Islamic nuke going off in our homeland. OTOH, perhaps we could interest the Chinese in a potential seaport on the Indian Ocean…
Dustoff| 3.30.11 @ 11:05AM
OK Ken..... I'm laughing at your comment, but I hate to admit it is true. (-:
cicero| 3.30.11 @ 11:07AM
The only successful British (or for that mnatter, European) colonies were those in north america, which were colonized with Western Europeans, and India, where the Brits stayed for 300 years. Even then, India was a close run thing. Their failed experiment with Soviet style communism led them into western style democracy.
All other attempts failed because the colonial powers were going broke trying to maintain their empires, causing them to leave before the cultural change was completed. Tribalism returned to fill the void. The point is, unless we are willing and able to stay in places like Afganistan for the next 300 years, and actually run the places, we are wasting blood and treasure to no good effecct.
If a country or its protected groups attack the United States, we should retaliate so severly that they don't ever want to do that again - then leave them to clean up the resulting mess. Our modus operandi is not only silly, but self defeating.
Ammo Guy| 3.30.11 @ 11:59AM
Also sadly true – the problem with that approach is the lack of backbone on part of our CINCs. None of that nuanced cr*p and none of that eye for an eye equivalent response. Our military action must be massive and vengeful with all the collateral damage that goes with it – it must be shocking and awful with BUFFs carrying a full bomb load, MOABs galore and B61s to clean out the valleys. It must be brutal enough to make Curtis LeMay wince in his grave in order to discourage reiteration.
btims| 3.30.11 @ 12:18PM
I like both cicero and ammo guy's thoughts.....What we have been doing for years is wasteful of American blood and treasure. It is a symptom of social engineering (govt. social programs). It is liberalism (with a small "l").
But today's liberalism (both parties), does not allow for the word "enemy" anymore. There are no enemies anymore - only people who we haven't created taxpayer funded social programs for yet. That's how they view muslims.
Roy| 3.30.11 @ 12:41PM
If what Afghans want is furriners out, why don't they elect leaders who will say that? Not like we could stop them.
ABNCP| 3.30.11 @ 12:48PM
Folks, what part of we are in what is going to be a long and terrible war with radical Islam do we not understand? This war is not a WW II, Korea or even Vietnam type of war. It is going to be a war of terrorism and suicide martyrs, a dirty nasty war. This Administration will not even say the words terrorism or radical Islam. The lame stream media for the most part want no part of telling this country what is actually taking place. No wonder many Americans do not even understand what is happening. How long is it going to be before we wake up and start figuring our how to suceed. Come on, this is America we can do what ever needs to be done when we finally get the message.
Old Soldier| 3.30.11 @ 2:02PM
I agree, but... We are fighting in the wrong place. Afghanistan is a meaningless stone-age jerkwater dump.
The real fight is in Iran, Syria, and Pakistan.
Pelligrino| 3.31.11 @ 1:27AM
Agreed about Syria, Iran, and Pakistan. But that is the B-war. One we must win, but....
The A-war is vs. Peking. (they are delighted that we waste so much time, treasure, talent on islam)
We have to win both -- now.
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 1:29PM
Has anyone considered that "Victory In War" is not in DOD's financial interest.
After all if Military wins, then the War is over.
That means the great rivers of money for War stops flowing.
With no War, the need for soldiers will decrease thus the total headcount must decrease to match the smaller financial realities.
Soldiers go home, decreasing the need for officers.
All DOD personal slots fall drastically throwing large amounts of personal off the DOD payroll.
So why would a General want to be unemployed with no troops and no command functions.
With no war, there is no need for more munitions and the ones in stock are not going away for years.
With no war, hundreds of billions of dollars in munitions will not be bought by DOD and the munitions in stock will depress prices for years.
This fact is devastating to the munition manufacturers bottom line.
It is even more devastating to the officer class retirement prospects as there will be no money to employ retired officers.
The same goes for all DOD suppliers and manufacturers.
When the rivers of money stop due to "Peace", then everyone must cut back drastically.
Personal fired, manufacturer plants close, cushy retirement plans scrapped and profits extinguished to the point of corporate destruction.
Thus a constituency is formed to keep the War going at all cost.
So why is it surprising that DOD and the Military would want to avoid "Peace" and actually seek to expand "War" into other areas, thus increasing the "need" for the Military.
More "War", more profit for the Military and their suppliers and supporters.
The Public must pay for all of this thus the Public is impoverished for DOD's benefit.
To paraphrase Sun Tzu, "...No Nation has profited by a long war...".
Ammo Guy| 3.30.11 @ 2:38PM
Well Pixie, my guess is that you’ve never served your country in any meaningful capacity – if you have, my apologies and thanks for your service…though I wonder what unit would have you. Meanwhile, in 37 years of hanging around DoD, I have yet to run into anyone above the rank of private who has expressed a heartfelt desire to go to war and witness the deaths of their comrades. So, please return the Dr. Strangelove DVD to Netflix and get a grip. As for me, I prefer to quote the venerable Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus, to wit "Si vis pacem, para bellum"
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 3:26PM
Why yes, I do have a DD Form 214
Ammo Guy....If you have a better logical analysis of why the US can military win the 2nd Gulf War / Iraq War in 41 days and yet still be "Losing" in 10 years, let us all hear it.
I would love to hear your explanation of why DOD is still losing the Afghan War after 10 years!!
Group loyalty and solidarity are wonderful things but it should never be a cause for intellectual blindness.
For that path leads to madness and certain destruction.
Again to paraphrase Sun Tzu "...No Nation has profited by a long war...".
Ammo Guy| 3.30.11 @ 3:53PM
Pixie, do you seriously think that what you’ve presented heretofore represents “a logical analysis” of the art of warfare as practiced by the US military? While I thank you for your service, I wonder if your DD Form 214 reflects anything more rugged than a 71L MOS and a short career? Again, if I’ve got you all wrong, my apologies beforehand. Otherwise, how many strategy sessions have you attended in the Pentagon and other COCOMs where recommendations were made to slow down the OPTEMPO because there was more money to be made that way? How about acquisition level conferences where decisions were made to purchase worthless and excess equipment for the reasons you cite? If you have, please let me know how I missed those because I have yet to see such total malfeasance in a career which likely began before you were born.
As far as Operation Enduring Freedom is concerned, that is entirely a different matter which can be attributed to many factors other than dereliction of duty and purposeful graft and corruption. Unfortunately, the only way to “win” in that area of the world is to cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war which we are not prepared to do – for that, blame the politicians and not us permanent bureaucrats.
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 4:22PM
Greetings Ammo Guy
Ok.. I will bite.
I will defer to your greater expertise in matters DOD.
In what way is my logic wrong.
Where did I fail in my analysis?
Are there obvious facts that I missed and should have considered?
In short where did I go wrong in my little blurb.
I am still waiting for your explanation of why the Afghan War has lasted 10 years and counting.
Ammo Guy| 3.30.11 @ 4:57PM
Oh Pixie, I was planning to give up posting for Lent and now here I find myself embroiled in what my good friend Bob Tyrrell would term a “kerfuffle”…with no end in sight. Be that as it may, I commend your persistence and the fact that you read TAS at all shows a willingness to engage. Otherwise, the problem I have with your analysis is that you cite no facts to support your argument – have you actually witnessed anyone making a decision to extend a conflict or acquire a weapons system based solely upon avarice or interests other than their oath of office? If you have, please send me the details since I currently serve as an IG and would be most interested in such high crimes and misdemeanors. Just because your argument in theory makes some sort of logical sense in some minds doesn’t make it so in reality. OTOH, I have been witness to many tough decisions in my lengthy career that didn’t always make immediate sense to me as an action officer or staff weenie, but I had to trust that the commander had much more to consider than my point of view. And, while not blind to possible conflict of interest, I have yet to come across later evidence that proved my trust to be misplaced – of course, perhaps I’ve had the good fortune to work for only the best and most honest the military had to offer…
As far as Afghanistan is concerned, as I mentioned in another post, we don’t “win” because we pull our punches and “respect” international norms. Give that mission to any decent combat brigade commander and tell him to win at all costs, regardless of borders, and you’ll quickly see results…but they won’t be pretty. Dick Winters would know of what I speak.
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 7:15PM
Greeting Ammo Guy
Please accept my humble apologies for your kerfuffle distress.
I was trying to approach the problem from a theoretical direction and no, I do not have any direct evidence I could take to an IG.
The problem with a large scale abstraction as I outlined in the above post, is it would not be localized in any one action, person or command group.
The pattern of behavior motivated by multilevel profit incentive as outlined above, would show up as a tendency of decisions to move in a general direction to prolong the Afghan War.
The problem is the pattern of decisions would appear to be correct as they would bring in increased resources to each group.
There would also be a desire to reinforce the group-think to keep the good times going.
In short it is more a problem in Doctrine and Philosophy than in Operations.
Unleashing 3rd Brigade will not work if the war can not be won by military means.
The US "won" that war when the Afghan Government was installed.
The sad part is no one seems to have the authority or guts to pull the plug on the Afghan or Iraq Wars.
Now the US is going to add a third war.
Ten years from will we be having the same discussion about the ongoing Libyan War?
Pelligrino| 3.31.11 @ 1:48AM
Dixie P, I think your analysis NOT at all off base. Quite right, in fact.
Ammo Guy seems to think that Oa-5 officers and above actually do any fighting, live in bunkers, sit in lonely OPs, or ever die on the battlefield.
Dixie is quite right. Whether in this nation's military or others, there is a long standing tendency for military brass + weapons producers + military vehicle makers, etc. to lament the potential end of a long conflict or war.
Why would they want it to end? (thankfully our US wars are seldom on US soil...so one's house or hometown is never impacted by a war that continues for 4 months or 4 years more, right?)
Read the closing of WW II in the Pacific chapters in Once An Eagle (it used to be on the US Army's War College reading list). Yes, there are some absolute daffy chapters in that long book, but the author has it right when he talks about very upset top officers who see their careers hitting a wall if Truman agrees to drop the bomb.
Ammo Gunner, you are not thinking.
There is much profit in war for many. Is that immoral? Yes. But war profiteering (frankly crime profiteering in your state) goes on unabated on this globe.
The men of WW II who from December 7, 1941 until May 5, 1945 and August 8, 1945 crushed the Axis evil of Germany, Japan, Austria, Italy and others would be very embarrassed for our military leaders today.
You want proof of today's top brass incompetence? Which 2, 3, or 4 star has demanded that we take the fight inside Pakistan? Which one has demanded we take the fight inside Iran once we've seen the exported weaponry, IEDs, trained terrorists, and uprisings directly orchestrated from Tehran into all parts of Iraq?
Seems they care not one wit when 4 of our guys are maimed for life by an IED made in Tehran.
Ammo Guy, any of the maimed and burned at Fort Hood's hospital or WRAMC your brother?
Tells me our USA, USAF and USN and USMC officers like the ongoing cycles of never-ending deployments.
Ammo Guy, get a clue. 39 year old LTCs and 44 year old 0-6 planners at the Pentagon and CENTCOM don't suffer at all from these never ending deployments. They feed on them.
Real men cut to the chase. They say, "No, I can end this in 14 months. Now, here's real ROE and get out of my way."
Pelligrino| 3.31.11 @ 2:13AM
Are Raytheon, Northrup-Grumann, TRW, General Dynamics, AT&T, GE, and all the rest happier if a conflict lasts just 3 days, 3 months, or 3 years? Aren't they practically having kittens if it lasts say 7 years?
Is there any real incentive (outside ethics) for them to wish for/work for very, very short conflicts?
Surely all readers here have considered this. It is VERY problematic. Prolonged conflicts can be potentially oh so BENEFICIAL for many.
And...funny, isn't it? Funny how all the Pentagon colonels who man desks and fly PCs seem to wind up working for one of these top 500 military hardware outfitters about, oh, 6-8 months after retirement from the active military.
Odd that.
The American can-do ethic is dead if we cannot crack the AQ/Taliban nut in Afghanistan/Pakistan in less than 10 years. We're doing something, but it ain't fighting. And it isn't winning.
There needs to be a total house cleaning of all CENTCOM, Pentagon, and DIA stooges.
Shameful. (not the troops and grunts -- they're doing fine)
Ammo Guy| 3.31.11 @ 10:23AM
Oh good grief, I give up – none of you posters know me, but I can tell you that if I had ever seen any evidence of what you speak during my career, I would’ve been the first one out the door blowing the whistle. Meanwhile, many of the field grade officers at the Pentagon you so casually slander are the same ones I’ve worked with in the field when they were company grade – none of them like coming here, but all of them voice their opinion in meetings in the most forceful way…to say anyone here doesn’t care about those in the field is an outrage and a damn lie – believe it if you will, but that doesn’t make it true. If you don’t like what’s going on, you can either resign your commission or stick it out and try to make a difference in the long run. To ask which flag officers have demanded we take the fight to Pakistan betrays an ignorance of how leadership operates at the highest levels – you weren’t there and you don’t know, but we take our orders from a civilian who has not attended War College so you can only make your case in a limited fashion. I have yet to run into a brigade commander who would resign in protest of the mission and its rules only to see his unit led into battle by someone else. If you think a house cleaning of the Pentagon and the COCOMs would change policy at echelons above SECDEF, you are dreaming
And please don’t lecture me about the vets from WWII – my old man is 91 and was a glider infantry captain during that fracas…I will trust his opinions and point of view over any of you that post here. I can tell you that he never doubted Truman since he was on his way to the Pacific for Operation Olympic when the bombs were dropped.
Finally, the war in Afghanistan frustrates us all because of the ROEs of which you speak. Where in my posts did I express satisfaction at its conduct? If it was up to me, I would clean out the nests across the borders and to hell with the consequences amongst the chattering classes at the UN and elsewhere…but last time I checked, it wasn’t up to me.
Carmella| 3.31.11 @ 12:26AM
I like the cut of your jib, sir--and I like reading what you have to say and the way you say it. That's all.
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 2:40PM
Another point.
Has anyone considered that the Afghan War can not be stopped.
Consider, Obama was elected with a popular mandate to end both the Iraq and Afghan Wars.
The Democrats had control of both Houses of Congress and the White House.
The majority of Democrats wanted both wars ended by any means.
Yet both Wars continue to this day.
Could it be the Permanent Bureaucracy of the US Government has slipped the control of the Politicians.
Could the reason the Afghan War does not end is because the Permanent Bureaucracy does not want it to end?
Ammo Guy| 3.30.11 @ 3:27PM
Hmmm, Pixie let me extend an invitation to you to accompany me next time I visit Walter Reed Army Medical Center or the burn unit at Brooke Army Medical Center so you can explain those who have earned their Purple Hearts at a very dear price your theory of government in these here United States. In fact I was at WRAMC earlier this month and saw a young man fiddling with his IPOD. Eventually he dropped it and I helped him retrieve it. Then I thanked him for his service and he told me that “it was my honor.” BTW, this young soldier had no legs, but I suppose he can find work in the permanent bureaucracy you speak of.
Regards from a permanent bureaucrat.
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 4:58PM
Thanks For the offer Ammo guy
But I have a sister in law who is serving as an US Army Intensive Care Nurse.
So I do know the pain of missing limbs and torn flesh.
Duty / Honor / Sacrifice are some of the hardest of ethos to live up to.
The world certainly needs more people like yourself who can live up to those ideals.
However the question before the readership is the Afghan war , a futile war?
I threw out my ideas, what are yours?
Feel free to prove my ideas are wrong.
l5j6| 3.30.11 @ 2:51PM
Pixie - have you considered you are on the wrong website?
Have you considered you are too young and too naive to understand these complex issues?
Have you considered what you seek (peace at all costs) is a naive, childish dream?
Have you considered, you oppose war because you don't believe in anything. You have know values and interests to protect? In that, you are similar to Barry the Magic Moooslim, now occupying the White House for another year and a half.
Consider it.
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 4:08PM
Greetings I5j6
It looks like I really punched some hot buttons today.
Duty / Honor / Loyalty / Sacrifice are the highest of ethos but should never be a cause for intellectual blindness.
If you better explanation of why we are still losing the Afghan War after 10 years let us all hear it.
Dixie Pixie
Member of the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy
Dilettante , 3Rd Class with Oak Leaf Clusters
All American American| 3.30.11 @ 8:15PM
Dixie, after posting on numerous "conservative" sites I've learned there are some sacred cows of the Right that you can't even question, let alone say anything "bad" about. Abe Lincoln, GWB, the military in general--no questions or you will be "alinsky'd" by right-wing zombies.
Anyway your analysis is thought-provoking. I tended to believe the reason we can't win these wars had more to do with ROEs, self-imposed dhimmitude on the part of our military "leaders," trying to nation-build and fight a war concurrently, the stupid, STUPID COIN "strategy" (and I use that term VERY lightly), and our failure to ackowledge the Truth with regards to islam. However after serving 21 years it would not surprise me if the career pols/officers getting fat in the Pentagon had ulterior motives for continuing these boondoggles. As they say, money talks and BS walks.
Dixie Pixie| 3.31.11 @ 12:22AM
Greetings All American Squared
The very purpose of the TAS Threads is to provoke thoughtful debate.
As Conservatives, we should never fear to skewer the sacred cows of the Right or Left.
How else are we to hone our arguments in the battle with the Socialists.
Of course, we should question our own assumptions as Conservatives less the Liberals find the holes in our logic to our determent.
In my own small mischievous way I am glad to provoke more thoughtful debate.
As to Ammo Guy and I5j6, I and the rest of the TAS Readership, we are still awaiting your skillful analysis on why the Afghan War has lasted this long.
I proposed there is a profit motive at the heart of the matter.
Do you have a better explanation?
If so what is it.
Let the debate commence!
Thanks again for your support All American American.
All American American| 3.31.11 @ 8:00AM
I agree Dixie. I've tried to explain to folks that our beliefs and values NEED to be TESTED from time to time. They are like swords, and become stronger and sharper through fire and the hammer, not by never being questioned.
Not only that, but WE become more confident and firm in our beliefs when they do stand the tests we put them through. And the ones that don't? They need to be discarded and the Truth needs to be acknowledged (as hard as that may be sometimes).
If we don't, we're no better than those on the Left when they defend their sacred cows like global warming, gun control, abortion, etc. I don't know about anyone else, but I truly, TRULY NEVER want to be accused of being as close-minded and ignorant as those we call "liberals."
Pelligrino| 3.31.11 @ 12:41PM
Yes, All-A-A: "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." Proverbs 27:17
This is what we are to be doing. ALL the time. As my Bible's footnote says, "People sharpen each other through exchanging information, discussing issues and critiquing each other's ideas....Like a knife blade rubbed on steel, this process in a friendship may cause some sparks to fly! Yet the result is good."
Above I refer to the book 'Once An Eagle' by Anton Myrer. If any TAS readers here are unfamiliar with this fiction book, I recommend it. Just go to Amazon.com for about 133 write-ups on it. (Just skim 4-5 reviews, and I think you'll be hooked.)
Hone in on one Amazon book commenter named Sojourner. He summarizes well the protagonist and antagonist in the book. My view: For every protagonist Sam Damon, our present-day military has 7 or 8 Massengales.
Further note: In Once An Eagle, in the months prior to WW II, the topics of industrialists in America doing large-scale raw materials, steel, and iron sales/business with the Japanese (while knowing the Japanese intentions for the Pacific and the US are not benevolent) touches on what I addressed above.
l5j6| 3.30.11 @ 2:55PM
For Pixie's enlightenment.......
The Defense Dept is a mere 4% of the GNP of our nation. In percentage terms, it is roughly only about 18% of the federal budget.
Pixie's pals in the lib-socialist-tard Democrat party take up the lion share of the government's budget. Public unions and social programs are the majority of our government's spending.
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 8:14PM
I5j6....I looked up my copy of James Clavell's translation of Sun Tzu's "Art of War" for the following sentence.
"In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare."
The time to pull the plug on the Iraq and Afghan Wars was when we won and installed governments in those lands.
That happened years ago.
It is past time the US ended both wars.
At the risk of pushing your last buttons have you considered that the US is indulging in a trillion dollar military luxury item on 40% borrowed money.
The Democrats will not cut anything while DOD is untouched.
Cutting 1.7 trillion from the Federal budget in return for ending the Iraq and Afghan wars would be a good deal for everyone.
J.C.Eaton| 3.30.11 @ 3:48PM
Ammo Guy, thanks for your service and for your compassion in visiting WRAMC and thanking the legless trooper. I believe what Pixie believes[apologies to Pixie, she doesn't need me to put words in her mouth] is functionally; "Thank you soldier, for your sacrifice. I pray it wasn't wasted. The U.S. has a lot better military, staffed with lots better people than its' leaders deserve.
Dixie Pixie| 3.30.11 @ 5:10PM
Thanks for the backup J.C.
Your eloquence is far greater than mine.
You hit the right notes far better than I could.
Thanks again.
PS...It is he not she.
Is it even possible to write "female"?
White Coats| 3.30.11 @ 6:15PM
To Ammo Guy & l5j6: Bravo, bravo!!
Bill Sundling| 3.30.11 @ 8:46PM
I'm a conservative. I supported the war in Iraq. I supported the war in Afghanistan at first but I don't see any reason for it anymore. If Al Quaida builds bases again we can destroy them from a distance. There's no point in wasting any more money or lives there.
Bob K.| 3.30.11 @ 9:27PM
It seems to me that ultimately it will be the accumulation of opinions of the american people that will determine the outcome of these wars. The opinions formed from the news of the happenings in these wars delivered to them nightly by national and local newspapers and television broadcasts. The accumulation of publicity surrounding the funerals of soldiers throughout the country and with the stories of the wounded told to the vast population of civilians throughout the country will make the country weary and skeptical of ever seeing an end to it. Families, neighbors, friends will over time become weary of this this just as they became weary with Viet Nam.
Andy Texan | 3.30.11 @ 10:01PM
Come home America! U S out of Afganistan, Iraq, Libya! Ignore the twit Kristol et al. (Seriously folks, let the Islamists kill each other. We can drop a bomb on them from drones & missles when they leave those hell holes and bother us.)
John Carnal| 3.31.11 @ 12:32AM
It would be nice if we could continue to save the world from itself but we're 14 trillion dollars short. Once we have the scratch we can return to lending a hand. Bring the boys and girls home, put them to work, seal our borders and rebuild America. The world will have to be on its own for awhile.
All American American| 3.31.11 @ 2:44PM
Wow there are some good yarns being spun here. Ammo Guy said non of the officers he knows like getting assigned to the Pentagon. Hmmm. In my 21 years I don't think I met an O-4 who wasn't actively working to GET ASSIGNED there. "Career progression" and all that. And they forcefully voice their opinions huh? Another good one. I've sat in on enough staff meetings to know this is complete at utter BS. There is so much brown-nosing and "yes-siring" going on that you truly need hip waders and a shovel to leave the room. No "sane" O-5 or O-6 would EVER, EEEEEEEEEEEVER tell his commanding O-7 anything except what he thought that O-7 wanted to hear. But when they get to the Pentagon they get all ballsy????? Don't think so.
All you have to do is look at the results. We're in the 10th year of a war against illiterate goat-rapers (and losing) and that's because the O-3s, 4s, and 5s in the field are all telling the "bosses" the truth? Why hasn't anyone gotten the stones to tell Patreus COIN is a cluster-eff??
This war, the Iraq war, now the LIbya war, plus $1,000,000 missles, $2,000,000,000 planes, $600 screwdrivers, $1,000 toilet seats, yeah, its that way because folks in middle management are "forcefully voicing their opinions."
Right. Riiiiight. Gotcha.
Ammo Guy| 3.31.11 @ 3:57PM
Oh wow, 21 glorious years – let’s see, that would have put you in pre-school about the time I entered the Department with Nixon’s picture on the wall as CINC. These old eyes have seen a lot, but I guess you’ve seen more so I bow to your perspicacity - your staff meetings must be more interesting than mine. So, this is where we part company – you go on believing what you want to believe and I wish you all the best in whatever you have left of your career. I’ll be hanging it up soon and I’ll take my delusions with me so you youngsters can fix the problems we old folks obviously created for you - perhaps we’ll run into each other one day and you can tell me how easy it was to do so. The only thing that befuddles me in my dotage is where were all the know-it-alls when I needed advice and another point of view before I made a decision? Apparently they’ve been posting online all along…if I had only known, sigh.
All American American| 3.31.11 @ 4:35PM
Oh good Lord we're gonna fall back on the (cue old man voice now) "I started waaaaay back in ought-nine, and I done seen a lot, ya young whipper snapper, so I am right and you are wrong." *EYEROLL* (Dude you already name-dropped Tyrell a few posts up and THAT didn't impress anyone, so stop it)
For an alleged old man with all these decades of experience you sure do cry alot Ammo Guy. Now, you never dispute anything I or Dixie Pixie originally said--I guess since you are old and have however many years we're just supposed to take your word for it? Our experiences don't count because you are older, is that about it? Why you sound like such a good little Statist/Leftist/Commie Progressive.
My career's over. You see, I wasn't an ass-kissing officer, and I was never interesting in "networking for after my career" like so many of my fellow SNCOs did. I was an enlisted guy and I DID tell it like it was. Unfortunately in today's military, that gets you absolutely nothing--except sent on deployments while the ass-kissers get to stay home.
So I punched out. I shrugged. I work from home now. I spend a TON of time with my family. And I don't have entrenched beauracrats to tell me its raining while they piss down my back, like on these boards.
All the know-it-alls were there Ammo Guy, but look how "receptive" you are to other opinions on these boards. Dixie Pixie merely brought up a possible reason why these wars have dragged on and you got all high and mighty with her. You are UNABLE to process any information or dare I say even consider any other opinion that doesn't mesh with your (cue old man voice) "159 years of working in DoD, when ol' US Grant was pres'dent."
So yeah, they are there, but in like a good entrenched Statist 475 year bearacrat, YOU know better. The E-5? No, why he's only 26, what could he know? I retied from the Army before he was born so I know better. The new person who just transferred in? Why, she's only got 10 years, she wasn't even born when I started, what does she know? Is that about right, Ammo Guy?
I know who you are Ammo Guy. You go to any base or fort or post and walk into any building and find some dark, dank cubicle and you'll find more Ammo Guys. They know better cuz they were there back in '52. Whatever.
Ammo Guy| 3.31.11 @ 7:32PM
Yeah, experience is so overrated. In fact, whenever I wander into a CSH, I always seek out the youngest doc since the old ones are reluctant to try out new remedies on me. Thank goodness my IRA is managed by a young hot shot straight out of business school.
Congrats on what I am sure is a well-deserved retirement; by all means spend a ton of time of with your family. As for me, I'll probably hang around a while longer to try to help out the young troops who no longer have the benefit of your wisdom - you know how dangerous Class V can be. And, I'll be sure to keep my eyes wide open for the kind of malfeasance and dereliction of duty of which you and Pixie have so helpfully made me aware. Many thanks.
Fed Up| 4.1.11 @ 2:11AM
Thank you All A. A. You are correct. If any reader here wants to understand the US Army (in a nutshell), please read All American's post at 2:44 p.m. March 31st (above).
He's spot on. All these officers know how to bow and scrape for the 7 - 14 months they work for their boss and boss's boss. They will never counter what their immediate two evaluation writers think.
Real gutsy intiative and responsiblity-taking is unwanted.
Thank you All A.A. Please publish a book for what you observed in your career. It would be the truth AND what all junior officers need to read.
Moreover, all true blue American citizens need to know the unvarnished truths.
As for AG Officer (Ammo Gunner) who is so stupid as to tell us here that he is currently in an IG (Inspector General) capacity, oh, where to begin.
In short, he illustrates why we have the best young officers chuck the service at the 5-8 years of service marks -- they get out in disgust. They love the country and want to serve but realize the brass like AmGummer (above) are oxygen thief toads.
AmGummer has posted in just this thread 8 times over the past two duty days -- yes, Eastern
Standard Time, while he is supposed to be doing his job.
While the sponsors for American Spectator Online might appreciate this, you as an American citizen should be outraged. A senior D.C. assigned desk jockey armed forces officer who trolls web sites and posts.
And writes extremely poorly.
And, please know two things about IG duty.
One - The duds work it. Not the really savvy, go-getter, going places officers.
Two - The military wants duds to work it because they never have the guts and decency to uncover anything on behalf of the American people (and their children who volunteer to serve). IG officers are the best whitewash specialists to be found. They perpetuate the "show."
Want to know why we don't win wars anymore: Look no further than AmGummer, mascot for an entire generation of me-first, me-only self servers.
Do note his ego throughout every post. Yes, no officer of his rank ever spends any time in the Beattitudes or has a clue how that might be important for his life.
Do not thank him for going to Walter Reed Army Medical Center to visit the wounded. (God bless those fellows) He did that on the clock/while being paid. It would mean more and be GENUINE if he went when on vacation or coming from halfway across the country on his own dime.
All of you should read his posts and weep; you'll be paying his more than ample retirement for the next 18-20 years. (And, yes, he is ungrateful -- he never even considers what taxpayers have afforded him these last decades.)
When you are still working at 69+ years old to stay afloat, he's laughing at you from his gated officer retiree community in Florida, yes, laughing at you the taxpayer swine.
Tamra Frederick| 4.1.11 @ 3:24AM
Afghanistan has become another Vietnam for the Americans. They need to leave them to their lot. The fight in Afghanistan is a never ending war.
http://indoorbananatrees.com/
Ammo Guy| 4.1.11 @ 9:30AM
Dear Fed Up, of course you have no idea where I am right now or in what time zone since I’m TDY most of the year, but I guess that fact would detract from your riveting narrative – I wish I could write real good like you. Other than that, you got it right and I could kick myself for revealing to the world the sordid truth behind Federal Service. I will immediately begin an investigation of myself and let the chips fall where they may.
All American American| 4.1.11 @ 11:48AM
Fed Up, thank you. I've tried telling some folks the Truth but all I seem to get in response is "why do you hate the military?" I don't. But the problem with the military is the higher in rank you go, the less "warrior" you become and the more "politician" you become. It used to be pretty much contained in the officer corps, but its now even infecting the enlisted ranks. That needs to change. There is so much "jockeying for position" and "networking" going on that stuff like, I dunno, the mission and taking care of people becomes a distant 2nd. Case in point: One of my last jobs I had in uniform was managing deployments for my unit. A fellow E-7 just got notified that he was selected for promotion to E-8. That SAME DAY, he was down in my office and wanted me to "find him a deployment." Reason? So it would look good on his E-9 promotion package.
The thing about Ammo Guy is for all of his "experience" the only thing he seemed to gain from it was---experience. He and guys like him (and trust me there are "Ammo Guys" in every building on every military base) are like Paris Hilton. She's famous for being famous. Ammo Guy is experienced from gaining experience. No mention of wisdom, intelligence, capability, or competence. Experience is the be-all and end-all.
And you know he shares NOTHING with the junior troops. If he did, it might make his wittle fiefdom crumble. What if a young NCO actually was able to *gasp* do Ammo Guy's job better? That would mean experience for the sake of itself WASN'T the be-all and end-all, huh?
And does it really surprise you to find he "TDY all the time?" You know he's milking those and only goes on the ones with the highest per diem and he surely claims all kinds of little expenses to milk every last penny from Mr and Mrs Taxpayer. I would even bet a dollar to a donut that he saved up all of his leave the last couple years he was in uniform so he could then "double-dip" when he was on Terminal Leave. Hey Ammo Guy, how much of your last year in uni did you spend positioning yourself for that GS job and how much time did you spend actually earning your salary?
Sad really.
Fed Up| 4.1.11 @ 4:12PM
All-American A., once more, thank you. Perhaps there are still 50-55 readers in this thread (despite the article now 3 days old) who will read these truths that you write.
Yes, those on the TDY gravy train do 'milk it' for all it is worth. Pads the monthly salary by $250 - $1000 per month. That can add up (and it is not taxed, right?)
Wanna bet that he convieniently goes TDY to a tax-free deployment zone about 5 times per year, aways at the end of the month/start of a new month?
AmGummer is indeed in every building and in every branch. Not just officers, senior enlisted, too, as you relate.
I remember an infantry major once going positively besirk to get deployed to Desert Storm. He was doing Klinger-style stuff (M*A*S*H) or so it seemed to be released from his infantry battalion. Why? Same as the man you mentioned: He knew that he needed that 'experience' to cement his promotion to LTC.
Okay, there's nothing wrong with aspirations and legitimate self improvements. But this major's behavior was beyond the pale. Not to mention the lives a battalion XO can (very negatively) impact while on his never-ending narcissistic .
Why? Well, he just couldn't look himself in the mirror as an officer without a combat unit/division patch on his right shoulder.
This is the MASSIVE secularization of our military. Same officer should have realized that God Almighty placed him in the non deploying unit for real (real important) reasons.
By the way, when hot shots like AmGummer go places like a Walter Reed Medical Center to see the wounded, they make CERTAIN a Public Affairs cameraman is there to capture their sincere concerns for the little guy. "Yes, hold that pose, big smile.....okay, got it."
In today's military a deed is not a deed unless it is in full blazing color, above the fold in a base newspaper with well written captions and forever archived in digitial form for instantaneous retrieval.
Note how MEDIA functions within the military have skyrocketed in the last 15-20 years. Commanding officers LOVE their media officers/public affairs officers and dis their chaplains and even the maintenance officers.
All Am. American, please, do write all these thoughts and memories down. Please. Put them in diary-like or memo-like format. Just start writing. Our memories can fade or distort. It is still fresh for you.
Yes, you do indeed esteem your military and want it to be THE optimal place for our young men to become men. But your assessment is correct. The officer corps (major and above) is full of fools -- the best having left at the 5-8 years marks. And, very sadly, NCOs mimic and gumby as careerism trumps doing the right thing.
You mention the right thing: ALWAYS looking to -- in every way possible -- mentor those junior to oneself. That really is the mission.
If any junior officer phones AmGummer (and, folks, AmGummer does take solace in the fact that his sort are legion -- they are), it is not for genuine mentoring or sound advice, it is just boot licking+careerism. There's nothing sincere or uplifting at all about it.
Today in the military we have NEVER-ENDING self-service. The ethic is supposed to be selfless service.
As humans we all suffer from ego. But a mature man has found ways to knife it. There is MUCH lack of maturity in our mid to senior ranks today.
Folks, all this is true. This is at the core of why we are still mucking around in Afghanistan and Iraq just waiting for another roadside bomb to end the lives of 4 more 22 and 23 year olds.
AmGummer (above) mockingly says he'd lauch an investigation on himself (and his whole career?) Yes, that would be the day. Not happening. Why? Two reasons. 1) AmGummer is in such good company. 2) If the American public did get to read about his life over these past 3 decades, they'd see that he is in the same moral league as Bernie Madoff (just hiding behind an officer's uniform).
Get right with God Almighty, AmmoGunner. That won't make it right by the American people. But perhaps God, in his infinite grace, will then offer you ways to make this right in your few remaining years on this earth.
All American, please don't let the fire in your belly (the fire to relate and tell the truths -- in organized, written fashion) dwindle. Thank you.
Our military is to be a bedrock institution for America. It is unstable, soft, uncertain clay right now.
Ammo Guy| 4.1.11 @ 9:11PM
Y'know it's a damn shame that no one else is following this thread anymore to witness the ass-whupping being administered to me by a perfect pair of perspicacious posters. Oh well, I'm sure there will be another time and another post to pick up where we left off...I look forward to it (thank you, sir, may I have another?)
I was going to ask RET to come over to view the carnage, but I know he is hard at work on his new book so it would be a waste of his time, as it has been mine. Well, gotta run, it's almost time for the Hale Koa luau (which is only barely covered by my per diem - guess I'll have to cadge my drinks from some old timer who isn't watching so I don't spend a dime out of my own pocket).
Hope you guys had a nice day - suppose it's somewhat fitting that this thread is winding down on the 1st of April, considering the audience. Don't be late for your anger management classes. Mahalo, y'all.
All American American| 4.2.11 @ 8:57PM
Ammo Guy you name-dropping Tyrell again? Oh no I'm a-scared. *eyeroll*
Anger managment huh? Geez man that's about the last bastion of someone who knows they've lost the argument--accuse the other side of being "angry." I surprised you didn't call me a "nazi" as well.
Truth hurts I guess.
Ammo Guy| 4.2.11 @ 11:58PM
Name-dropper, moi? Yeah, I'm shameless, but when you've been around as long as I have, you get to know a surprising number of prominent people - as I was telling the Secretary of the Army the other day...(his view of DC from the E-ring is almost as good as the one from Bob's office further north, but Bob is on a higher floor)
Nah, I wouldn't call you names, but I thought I detected a teeny bit of anger in your posts...my apologies if I was wrong. Meanwhile, if I was half the monster you've conjured in your head, I couldn't live with myself either...but, not to worry, I know I've made a positive difference during my career and my advice has saved lives - whether it was the determination of the cause of an ammo malfunction or calculation of the safest site for a basic load ammo holding area at a base camp downrange or pointing out problems with mixed compatibility of ammo in an ammo supply point or the proper packaging of HAZMAT for transportation over the road or in the air (those Air Force loadmasters can be a pain in the butt) or instruction of 55Bs on all the above or acting as the safety officer during a midnight ammo upload of a Cav unit heading into the box, I can sleep at night.
Take care, I'll see ya on another thread, I'm sure.
Creative Recreation | 8.10.11 @ 11:14PM
is good