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Special Report
Still Tortured Evangelicals
A Duke conference will highlight the extent to which left-pacifists oppose any resistance to jihadists.
The Evangelical Left made much of U.S. “torture” policies under the Bush Administration. Like the obliteration of the Death Star in “Star Wars,” that administration’s conclusion presumably would have mollified Evangelical Left activists. But the campaign earnestly continues. Does President Obama now stand accused as a torturer too? Duke University’s seminary is hosting an anti-torture conference (“Toward a Moral Consensus Against Torture: A Gathering of Students, Clergy, People of Conscience, and People of Faith”) later this month, prompting one seminarian recently to blog: “To the extent that American Christians continue allowing their government to torture — motivated by ever-growing fears and the demands of feeling secure — they must also recognize they no longer stand with Jesus in the world.”
So in the eyes of some, “torture” evidently did not end with Bush. One of the torture conference sponsors is the National Religious Campaign Against Torture, which explains that President Obama “only halted torture — he does not have the authority to end it completely.” Apparently for the torture concerns to subside, there must be a “thorough investigation” of U.S. torture polices, Obama’s executive order against torture must be legislatively ratified, Guantanamo as a “symbol of our country’s use of torture” must close, renditions must be further restricted, and the U.S. Army Field Manuel must ban “pro-longed isolation, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation.” Finally, Americans must repent of their purported pro-torture views, which illustrate “how corrupting the use of torture has been to the soul of our nation and the souls of our people.” Until Americans repent, “we will always be at risk of electing more politicians who support the use of torture.” The campaign against U.S. torture must continue.
Anti-torture campaigners cite a Pew survey showing actively church going evangelicals favoring the Bush Administration’s “enhanced interrogation techniques” more than non-churchgoers. The Duke seminarian blogger lamented that American pro-“torture” Christians are not basing their beliefs on Jesus but on “tragic necessities,” arguing “because we are more moral, we have the duty to be immoral.” This purported ethic declares: “Do unto others as you fear they might do unto you and your loved ones.” This Duke blogger argued that Jesus was tortured to death by His enemies yet still loved them, so His followers should do likewise. It’s a common theological confusion among evangelical pacifists that civil governments must have the same behavioral vocation as Jesus the Savior. The seminarian lamented that “in the meantime, as the U.S. torture program rolls on with no mass protest from American Christians, we must come to terms with our rationalizations for torture sort of making sense, hundreds of victims of detainee abuse sort of getting justice, the American nation sort of being a democracy, and the churches sort of being faithful to Jesus.”
Evangelical Left activists focused on purported U.S. torture typically do not define torture. Much ink and chatter is still applied to waterboarding, though evidently only three al Qaeda terrorists, all of whom seem to remain alive and healthy, were waterboarded, ending in 2003. This would be as though likeminded activists, in 1953, were still campaigning against the incarceration techniques applied to the Nazi war criminals at Nuremburg in 1945. Goering, Hess, Speer and the rest were kept under 24-hour surveillance, with the lights on, with no privacy, among other indignities, for many days, partly out of fear for their potential suicide, but presumably also partly owing to contempt for their crimes.
The Evangelical Left’s fixation on the no doubt extreme discomfort suffered by Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, Abu Zubayda and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri in the days after their capture in 2002 and 2003 seems odd, amid far greater horrors afflicting more innocent people globally over the last 8 years. This preoccupation doubtless rests at least partly on the Evangelical Left’s belief that the U.S. as the primary global hegemon whose misdeeds merit special condemnation. It is also true that most of the Evangelical Left, especially centered at Duke seminary, is pacifist. Any armed resistance to terror or aggression, in their eyes, is as wicked as the provoking depredations. This neo-Anabaptist position, for which Duke’s famed Stanley Hauerwas is best known, is increasingly influential among academics, clergy and activists. It is also a small minority position within Christianity, all of whose major traditions affirm the biblical understanding that God ordained the state to wield the sword in defense of order and justice. Does wielding the sword include the right to conduct “prolonged isolation, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation” in limited cases? Reasonable people may disagree. But St. Paul, in his affirmation of lethal force by rulers, was surely aware that magistrates of his day relied on far more excruciating techniques.
Helping to organize the upcoming Duke torture event is distinguished ethicist and pacifist Amy Laura Hall, whom I am glad to count as a friend, though my arguments remain unpersuasive to her. She explained in a recent interview with Sojourners that the conference was prompted by Christians who are avoiding the “tragic details of our two wars — the use of torture, the military suicide rate, the number of civilians killed.” As a Methodist at a Methodist school, she expressed special alarm that it was a Methodist President who said “damn right” to waterboarding. George W. Bush, like other Christians, “tacitly accepted torture” to “keep us safe,” she regretted. Noting that the Duke event will include Muslim speakers, she recalled having “confessed to a Muslim friend recently that I am having trouble keeping up and staying sane reading about all that is being done to Muslims around the world in the name of our ‘war on terror.’”
Hall noted that the Duke event will feature former National Association of Evangelicals official Richard Cizik, ethicist David Gushee of Mercer University and Evangelicals for Human Rights, and ethicist George Hunsinger of Princeton Seminary and the National Religious Campaign Against Torture. She lamented these men had been accused of “being ‘soft’ or ‘irresponsible’ due to their stance on torture,” and were even “punished by other men around them for not sticking to the standard line being sold to us for years on this issue — that ‘real men’ say ‘damn right’ when it comes to torturing brown people, ostensibly to protect white women and our white children.” This racial point is strange. Hundreds of 9-11’s victims were non-whites. Hundreds of U.S. military personnel killed in the War on Terror were non-white. Globally, most victims of Islamist terror are themselves Muslim, not Westerners. Arguably, the most brutalized victims of Jihadist Islam are black sub-Saharan Africans, especially in southern Sudan but also in Sudan’s Darfur and in Nigeria, as elsewhere.
A consistent pacifist ethic, as advocated by some organizers of the Duke torture event, requires surrender to Jihadist Islam and to all other marauding aggressions. This form of pacifism applied to terror prohibits not only all military force and “torture,” including “pro-longed isolation, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation.” It also must preclude even any police action or incarceration of terrorists, since all prisons are governed by armed guards. This pacifist ethic argues simply for yielding to terror, no matter how many innocents are slain, as a witness to faith. Dr. Hauerwas honestly and accurately admitted recently that faithful pacifism may lead to a “more violent world.” But the faithful must “know how to endure.”)
This argument for standing aside as innocents are brutalized and slaughtered is not mainstream Christianity and it was not the teaching of Jesus, the Apostles, or the Hebrew prophets before them. Such absolute pacifism, unlike traditional Christianity, is not applicable for regular people living in the real world. It is instead a hobby theme for insulated academics talking mostly to each other. The upcoming Duke conference may focus on “torture.” But its underlying premises seem devoted to divesting Christianity of all ethical practicality in favor of the ethereal.
About the Author
Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (80) | Leave a comment
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Jason Brutus Kane| 3.14.11 @ 6:48AM
One reads the utterances of these fools with astonishment and a deep sadness. These are people so profoundly ignorant of the world we live in that they may even have voted for the Oblimator: The Oblimanator has oblimanated our economy; is in the formative stages of oblimating excellent medical care; is making huge efforts to obliminate public expressions of our Christian faith; actually one might say obliminate the second amendment entirely, and seeks to obliminate our borders. Surely those who love her must weep for the US.
LMajito| 3.14.11 @ 7:01AM
yep...these saps seat in their chair ruminating about all kinds of evil but never fault our enemies...anybody remembers how the same folks went out of their way to take Elian back to the hell that bearded one has created 90 miles south of Key West? Almost 200 gulags in the island and counting...do they torture folks there? A simple read of 'Against All Hope' by Valladares should show that in Cuba the place where the chances for torture are nil is Guantanamo.
But most likely these useful idiots don't have enough geographic insight to know that Getmo is in Cuba.
mames| 3.14.11 @ 11:16AM
And what is the evangel of the evangelical left? They teach a Christ emptied of his divinity so what have they to offer? They are not Christians in the orthodox, biblical sense but just like their political counterparts they like to use words to try and fool us. We in the orthodox camp call that lying. As the comedian Denis Leary has said, "if hooking up a car battery to a monkey (or a prisoner) will save many lives, then I have only two things to say, red is positive and black is negative."
RN in Houston| 3.14.11 @ 12:38PM
The left today is an amalgamation of atheists, pagans, and power hungry statists. Their god is their bellies and their philosophy is based on a lie.
darcy| 3.15.11 @ 3:13AM
The liberal church to which these so-called evangelicals belong is a dead church; it has been emptied of the gospel and puffs itself up with one social project after another.
Just once I'd like to hear these "Christians" talk about the blood of Christ washing away their sins, about Jesus taking their punishment upon Himself and giving them His righteousness so that they can stand before God not guilty, not claiming they have earned forgiveness by their own works but that it is an unmerited gift of God.
Surely there's a better word, Mr. Babbin, for these folks than "evangelicals." Even dictionary.com describes evangelical in much the way I wrote above. I contend there is no such thing as the evangelical left -- the words cancel each other out; one can't be both evangelical and a leftist. Find another term for these wolves in sheep's clothing. And don't give them Christian cover for their entirely earthly aims.
FTM| 3.15.11 @ 4:42AM
Like Jesus said, Not everyone that says, "Lord, Lord" will be saved
Robbins Mitchell| 3.14.11 @ 7:05AM
Well,I don't intend to have the quality or commitment of my Christian faith questioned or judged by some fuzzy cheeked 'seminarian' who apparently worships at the Church of Karl Marx's Dick
Ryan| 3.14.11 @ 8:18AM
Ummm...a rebuke may be in order here for your poor language.
We aren't called to be rude and demeaning to our enemies, either.
Chalkdust| 3.14.11 @ 9:42AM
"Rude and demeaning to our enemies". Does anyone besides me see how stupid and insipid this statement sounds. Maybe this is one of these cases to cruise on by and let stupid alone. But I mean jezz...if one can't be rude to your ENEMY Ryan, what's the point in shooting them or cutting their heads off? Take your meds and go back to sleep.
mcCandles| 3.14.11 @ 12:13PM
Exactly! I guess it would be considered rude to firebomb entire cities to ashes (tokyo, dresden) but such is the nature of war. It is an unpleasant, brutal, and tragic undertaking. But it is necessary to preserve freedom.
Ryan| 3.14.11 @ 1:24PM
Defending ourselves is one thing.
But what Biblical defense do you have to use such language?
Charles Martel| 3.14.11 @ 6:16PM
The burden is on the prosecution, not the defense: what Biblical admonition would you cite to challenge the good Mr. Mitchell?
+++
Ryan| 3.15.11 @ 8:27AM
Colossians is useful here - Paul writing about the changes that are supposed to be in our hearts because of the work Christ has done. In particular:
Col 3:8 "But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips."
Col 4:6 "Let your speech always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person."
Prov 8:13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil; I hate pride and arrogance, evil behavior and perverse speech."
There is no excuse for filthy and demeaning language from the Christian.
None.
We can express truth firmly, earnestly, and intelligently without the need to demean others. Christ never used it, and the only time that Paul came close was in describing how useless his personal righteousness was in salvation.
Charles Martel| 3.15.11 @ 12:58PM
Good answer. I asked; you delivered.
+++
David T| 3.14.11 @ 4:40PM
Chalkdust--Do you think this statement sounds stupid and insipid: "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"?
Charles Martel| 3.14.11 @ 6:20PM
Is there an inherent conflict between loving them and chastising them? I can think of several Gospel examples off the top of my head in support of the answer "no".
+++
Ryan| 3.15.11 @ 8:27AM
Where is the call to use filthy and demeaning language in chastising them?
How does it help?
Charles Martel| 3.15.11 @ 1:01PM
This second question did not pertain to the language chosen, but rather to the act of chastisement itself. And on this point, Mr. Mitchell stands on firm ground.
+++
Teaghan| 3.14.11 @ 9:36AM
Go Robbins! Tell it!
Occam's Tool| 3.14.11 @ 2:55PM
Uh, you mean Terrorist Catamites. Feel free to use it.
That Duke Seminarian| 3.15.11 @ 12:24AM
Based on this comment --- and the far more vulgar and inspired one he left at my original blog post which has now been removed by a moderator --- I'm more than happy to grant Robbins that my fuzzy cheeks are wholly superfluous to seeing the quality of his Christian faith called into serious question.
That Duke Seminarian| 3.15.11 @ 12:32AM
If you're by any chance curious, here's the original comment:
"Well,I’ve been a Soldier of the Cross for many years,and I don’t intend to be judged by some snot nosed college boy who apparently worships at the Church of Karl Marx’s Dick..the Kingdom of Heaven has to be defended like any other..and since Matthew evidently doesn’t have enough hair on his pee pee to do that,then he needs to start wearing a dress…especially since he lacks the intellectual honesty or moral courage to mention that the current US government,which he claims is still torturing people,is headed by Barack Obama…a person of extremely questionable theological disposition….and frankly, I don’t give a big rat’s ass what people who kill in the name of some illiterate mass murdering barbarian pedophile think of me…they’re going to try and either kill me or make me bow down to their meteorite in the dessert anyway,no matter what I say or think or do"
I have no intention here of changing any one's mind, much less of attempting conversation with the author of the quoted portion above. I simply include it here to further the question raised (apparently, with no trace of irony) by Chalkdust above, namely, if torturing enemies is okay, is there ANYTHING one could say to someone like me (who opposes torture) which would be too vulgar, too hateful or too shameful, or is it all fair game?
Feel free to ignore, or discuss, but I trust that among you there are many who sincerely are aiming to follow Christ, and for those -- despite how different we may be in our politics -- it seems the question is worth considering.
Blessings to all.
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.14.11 @ 7:13AM
I'm sure Jesus felt remorse after driving the money changers out of the women's court of the Temple.
(Not)
CalMark| 3.14.11 @ 8:38PM
...or all those times He went off on the Pharisees as "hypocrites." Or when he lost his temper with Peter ("Get thee behind me, Satan!")
Some people mistake forcefulness for brutality. No doubt they were brought up on Dr. Spock.
Sara Burke| 3.14.11 @ 7:30AM
One wishes that these "evangelicals" would spend at least as much time sharing the true Gospel of Jesus Christ as they do defending the unabashed enemies of Christ who also wish for death to all "infidels" who won't convert to their warped ideology. Do they feel the wholesale slaughter of the Israeli family including 3 babies on Friday is torture too?
Teaghan| 3.14.11 @ 9:37AM
I wouldn't count on it Sara.
FTM| 3.15.11 @ 1:57AM
No, these people give savages a perpetual "get out of hell free" card.
Ryan Quanstrom| 3.19.11 @ 10:17AM
Umm FTM, Is grace free? Just curious, by what merit is one Justified? It seems to me, that we are justified by the faithfulness of Jesus Christ. In my mind, that means that justification is contingent not upon ANYTHING I do, but entirely upon God's work. If we earn our salvation, well, then... we are not professing the same thing that the bible teaches. Bascially, we all get a "get out of hell free" card...
Charles Stevens| 3.14.11 @ 7:44AM
The left invariably either refuses to explicitely define its terms, or else offers a definition based on a feelings-based judgement. Thus "torture" to the left essentially means any treatment that does not meet 100% with the approval of those confined.
This is almost congenital with the left... distortion of language inevitably leads to poor analysis, poor thinking, and disastrous outcomes applied to reality. As proof, I offer you every progressive program ever instituted by the federal government.
"In the Beginning was the Word..." And who would be most likely to distort the word, if not Satan himself? In the final analysis, the 'Evangelical Left' has surrendered to evil.
Chalkdust| 3.14.11 @ 9:50AM
I do like your thinking process Charles. Very incisive post.
The Bishop| 3.14.11 @ 7:58AM
Not to be nit-picking, but in the second paragraph is should "U.S. Army Field Manual," not "manuel." Of course, with so much illegal invasion from our southern border, maybe it is U.S. Army Field Manuel.
The Bishop| 3.14.11 @ 8:39AM
Nit-picking myself: The first sentence should be "paragraph it" not "paragraph is." I need to get the darned beam out of my left eye.
Richard Baker| 3.14.11 @ 8:16AM
"Hobby theme." Like that as a description of these scared little rabbits and their goofy pacifist ideas. It appears that these nuts don't live in the real world. Intelligent, I think not.
Doctor Right| 3.14.11 @ 8:23AM
Real torture is listening to these Marxist and pacifiers masquerading as Christians pontificate on matters that are best left to mature adults.
Ms. Hall may be a friend of yours, but to the rest of us, she's a damn fool.
And what, pray tell, is the opinion of these compassion-fascists on abortion?
Teaghan| 3.14.11 @ 9:39AM
"And what, pray tell, is the opinion of these compassion-fascists on abortion?"
BINGO!
Johannes de Silentio| 3.14.11 @ 5:13PM
Actually, Dr. Hall's position on various issues surrounding abortion, IVF, stem cell research, etc is very well known, and is not what you are guessing.
JLBenedict| 3.14.11 @ 5:57PM
I think Dr. Hall's position on abortion might surprise you. (http://theotherjournal.com/2004/10/10/an-interview-with-amy-laura-hall/)
At the very least, I hope it might make you think twice before simply assuming that someone's pacifist views are merely part of a blanket liberal and secular perspective. Certainly there are "bleeding hearts" out there which use Christian rhetoric to promote a humanist and leftist agenda; there are also committed, thoughtful, mature, and orthodox Christians who advocate pacifism precisely because they see non-violence as an imitation of Christ and as what God desires from His disciples. Now, this particular interpretation of Scripture is certainly debatable. Nevertheless, sir or madam -- you'll forgive me, I'm sure, if I don't apply the title of "Doctor" which you claim for yourself, since you don't extend the same courtesy to Dr. Hall -- how dare you presume to judge the heart of another and pronounce them to be "Marxist [sic] and pacifiers masquerading as Christians"? The last time I checked, Christians are not to be recognized on the basis of their foreign policy but by their confession of the Trinity and of the divinity, Lordship and saving work of Jesus Christ. Oh -- and by our love, which presumably isn't best displayed by calling each other "damn fools." -- You should be ashamed of yourself.
[For the record, I am a student at Duke Divinity. I am not a Marxist. I consider myself orthodox and Evangelical. I know and deeply respect Dr. Hall for both her commitment to Christ and for her diligence, faithfulness, and intellectual integrity in doing Christian ethics. Incidentally, I am also NOT a pacifist.]
Doctor Right| 3.14.11 @ 7:02PM
No shame here, son.
I don't waiver from calling-out those who distort the message of Christ for their idiotic political philosophies. Dr. Hall is another deluded, leftist fool who would lead us like sheep to be slaughtered by Islamists. The fact that she teaches at a Divinity School is irrelevant. The fact that she can (maybe) quote chapter and verse from scripture is also irrelevant. I'm not judging her foolish heart, I'm judging her words and her actions, and they are not only wrong, they are dangerous.
Christ never preached blind pacifism. Those who claim he did are either misguided, willfully ignorant, or masking an agenda. Christ said he did not come to bring peace, "but a sword". He warned against false teachers and prophets. He also said "By their fruits, you shall know them".
Well guess what? I know people like Dr. Hall, and they're as deluded as she is. They think that our safety and security is grounded in the best intentions of our enemies. They think it's no big deal to vote for a Party that supports infanticide. They're wrong, and so is she.
And if she is against abortion, should we reward her for doing the right thing? Should we allow that to influence our opinion of her "peace studies"?
Sorry, not playing.
Go back to school. We can talk after you've lived a little.
JLBenedict| 3.15.11 @ 4:04PM
Just a few points in reply:
1. As I said, I am not a pacifist. However, I'm wondering why the idea of going "like lambs to the slaughter" is being used so derisively in a Christian context. After all, Jesus was "led like a lamb to the slaughter" as were the early Christian martyrs.
2. I don't think the point of Christian pacifism is that one relies on the "best intentions of enemies" for "safety and security." The point is that one takes a long view and looks for ultimate safety and security in Christ and in eternal life, not mortal life. Are we willing to take up our crosses and follow him? We may also decide to use military power, to protect human life, but that does not negate the Christian obligation to be willing also to suffer as martyrs. Trusting in a strong military for our ultimate safety is no less "the wisdom of the world" than trusting in the "best intentions of our enemies."
3. Saying as you did that someone is a "Marxist or leftist masquerading as a Christian" is not judging words or actions or the quality of an argument or the faithfulness of Scriptural interpretation. It's judging the fundamental identity and faith commitments of a person. As I mentioned, I myself disagree with Dr. Hall on a number of points about the use of force and violence. Disagreement is just much more productive if done intelligently after accurately understanding an opponent's actual position rather than making assumptions. You cannot know if you know people "like" Dr. Hall unless you actually understand Dr. Hall's position. And you don't understand her position if you could assume that she's some peacenik leftist who would (naturally) support abortion.
4. Speaking of assumptions... I'm not your "son." I'm not anyone's son, since I'm a woman. I'm also a second-career student who has already "lived a little." The fact that I found your assumptions about me amusing rather than offensive is probably the best clue as to my level of maturity and how much "living" I have done. But I don't think I will talk with you again. The sort of theological or ethical discussions I find useful are those in which people try to comprehend accurately the positions with which they disagree and root their own position in an articulate expression of Christian faith rather than simply repeating the rhetoric of a secular political party (and that goes for both parties). Because that's just idolatry dressed up in an American flag. The only good argument against Dr. Hall's pacifism would be to explain why engaging in war or torture allows us to be better Christians. How would we be failing to be good disciples of Jesus Christ if we did not go to war or torture prisoners? I hear a lot about why war and torture are useful and keep us safe and how the right of states to employ coercive force is protected by Scripture. But "useful" isn't the same as "faithful." How is engaging in military action and torture a more faithful and more Christian thing to do than refusing to engage in such practices?
Doctor Right| 3.15.11 @ 5:54PM
1. Yes, Jesus was led "like a lamb to the slaughter". That was for two reasons: To atone for all of OUR sins, past and present, and to fulfill The Law as foretold in the Old Testament. NOWHERE did he say that we are to allow ourselves to be led like lambs to the slaughter in the face of our enemies. Only squishy, left-leaning peacenik "Christians" think that, and they're dead wrong.
2. Again, you fail to understand the basic issue here: "Taking up the cross" DOES NOT mean being a door-mat for your enemies. It means putting Christ first in your life, no matter what the consequences are TO YOU. It does not give you the right or moral stature to force others to suffer for your decisions, and the pseudo-Christian peacenik approach is the highway to destruction.
3. I understand PLENTY about Dr. Hall. I've been around people like her in the past, and I even have some of them in the church I attend. Most of them are unrealistic dreamers with only a vague sense of reality and how the world actually functions, and the academic ones are the worst of all. And yes, she's a peacenik leftist. There's a reason that stereotypes resonate with people.
4. Ok, Sweetie-pie.
Another Duke Div-er| 3.15.11 @ 6:12PM
Dr. Hall is a devoted disciple of Jesus Christ.
FTM| 3.15.11 @ 2:01AM
"Practicing a form of godliness but denying the power thereof. From such as these turn away."
Louis Jenkins| 3.14.11 @ 8:40AM
White men instituted torture for white families, little white boys and white girls? Give me a break. If torture was instituted, it was for all of us regardless of color. Water boarding does not necessarily mean torture, although uncomfortable. And the Muslims? Anything that smells favorable to their cause they will support. We are at war with Islam, get it straight.
David W| 3.14.11 @ 9:01AM
Can we not have these evangelicals go on a world USA apology tour? They can wear their large crosses and stars of David and walk through Muslim dominated areas apologizing for our torture. Then they will get a taste of what real torture is like (I've read that female leftist-pacifists are not treated kindly by certain muslim males, especially in forward thinking areas like Gaza and the West Bank).
Brian Mc| 3.14.11 @ 9:17AM
As usual, like good little liberals, the left would have themselves believe (if not the rest of us) the government can be legislated into a morally righteous entity that can then do all the thinking and acting, and protecting for us. Please protect us from hunger, obesity, cigarettes, head-on collisions, shoe bombs, rampaging firearms, and now, torture. In the meantime, I'll keep looking for the right to protection in the constitution. A collective bunch of thumbsuckers all.
Anthony| 3.14.11 @ 10:14AM
What irony, a conference about torture on the campus of Duke University. Yes, the same folks who brought you guilty until proven innocent!!!
Where's Amnesty International when we need them, the only torturing still going on is with the Duke lacrosse team.
J.C.Eaton| 3.14.11 @ 11:16AM
These self-annointed John the Baptists are what they are, do what they do, and say what they say because they can afford to. Because better people than they are protect their being, doing, and saying. Howinhell can you be friends with a twit like this?
tdiinva| 3.14.11 @ 11:26AM
Martin Luther pondered the used of force by the Christians in defense of human life. As he put it "must we depend on the Turk to wield the sword?" These evangelicals have answered in the affirmative.
CR Pei| 3.14.11 @ 12:29PM
Actually, there have been many evangelical leaders who have been very outspoken about torture. I've noticed David Gushee's work, but have seen others who've spoken out against torture as well. I think the public approval for torture among certain religious and ethnic groups is a pretty complicated story, and we're still trying to figure out who supports what... I've heard that there's more upcoming data on this issue. I heard about some of this from a recent talk by the author of "None of Us Were Like This Before" (which is, by the way, a truly incredible book and I _highly_ recommend it to all...http://noneofuswerelikethisbefore.com/book/) Anyway, I think it's just too simple to say there's just one particular Christian group that supports torture. A better question might be: why is there support for torture? I mean, really dig in and understand that...
Anthony| 3.14.11 @ 12:30PM
The history of mankind is full of the misguided gullible who have served as foot fodder for evil. However, for sheer arrogance, self righteous effite snobbery, blind moral relativism, and sickening moral superiority, the evangelical left tops the list.
These cowards have a death wish that they wrap in their preening academic world of faux intellectualism. These lambs deserve to be slaughered, and our enemies lick their chops at the prospect of doing so.
But these ivory tower eunuchs know they are safe in their beds because of the "rough men" who stand as their protection. Yes, the same men and woman they denegrate with impunity.
These people are really wearing thin on me, and I for one can't wait for the day when their death wish comes true. So why don't they just volunteer to be human shields and hand themselves up the the Islamofacists? If they have a savior complex, they can offer themselves up for us, it'll be a delicious twofer!!!
SCM| 3.14.11 @ 12:42PM
I am glad that I am an evangelical Christian. I am glad that I am NOT an evangelical Christion academic.
I suggest that this conference be moved from Duke to the middle of Yemen. Maybe they could get a look at some real torture.
martin j smith| 3.14.11 @ 2:38PM
Left is Left--Evangelical,Jewish all the same to me. At this time I would say two things about these people: They are more dangerous than the Jihadists themselves because they will make us weak against any aggressor nation including Russia or China and two I do not believe or trust them for anything at all. That about covers it doesn't it ? Thus at thgis time, now that we are very familiar with their line of thinking the more important issue is to convince those people who do not drink the poison cool aid to hear the truth.
Occam's Tool| 3.14.11 @ 2:56PM
I am a fan of waterboarding and of beatings. Honestly, if some irregular fighter is found on a battlefield NOT in uniform, HE HAS NO RIGHTS.
CalMark| 3.14.11 @ 8:42PM
Correct.
According to the Law of War and Geneva Conventions, he is an unlawful combatant, and may be shot on the spot as a subversive. No trial, no due process: instant execution.
Wonder why Bush and his minions never threw that back in the faces of lefties when they quoted the Law of War and Geneva Conventions?
Yet another item on the long, long list of grievous sins of omission by GWB.
FTM| 3.15.11 @ 2:09AM
Because Bush was an idiot.
All during the eight year administration of Bush II an explanation, a word uttered at the right time would have completely derailed the liberal left. Over and over again but not a word. In my most humble opinion President Bush's most major failing was a lack of explaination in terms of justification.
Case in point, the first cry-baby to ask the question, "why are you torturing prisoners" you simply say, in a world where I can give you a shot, wait five minutes then ask you a question that you will honestly answer why would I waste time with torturing you? Sit back down kid the big people are trying to have a conversation here.
Old Soldier| 3.14.11 @ 4:25PM
They wonder why nobody attends their churches. Sitting through one of their self-righteous anti-everything western sermons must be true torture.
Ryan Quanstrom| 3.19.11 @ 10:27AM
Or because young intelligent compassionate Christians concerned with evangelism learn a bit about Church history, the history of theology, a non individualist reading of scripture. When we attempt to express our theology in coherent rational forms, other "Christians" rip us to shreds . Why the hell would anyone want to attend church when we have violently angry people spewing unkind blog entries to their sisters and brothers? As a young pastor, I can tell you my generation hates the church because of its refusal to repent of its sins its insistence that it has always been "right."
I understand the desire for theological accuracy, I also believe their is an appropriate mode of communication which is not happening here.
Franco| 3.14.11 @ 4:30PM
"pro-longed isolation, sleep deprivation, and sensory deprivation."
That's what I endure as a parent of twin toddlers!
Charles Martel| 3.14.11 @ 6:32PM
The cause célèbre du jour is the plight of one of the Left's latest darlings, Bradley Manning, procuror of the vast quantity of classified data released by the wikiweasel Julian Assange. The Left, it would seem, would prefer to hand Pvt Manning the means with which he could end his own life in his cell, while the authorities -- including (gasp!) even the Prophet Barry, though why he would buck his own lily-livered base on this is beyond me -- would seem to prefer that he live long enough to stand before a court martial. Their purpose is served if he martyrs himself while awaiting trial; ours is to see justice properly done.
Manning should hang, but it will be the Army's job to do that for him.
+++
Doctor Right| 3.14.11 @ 7:07PM
Water-boarding isn't torture...but why sweat the details when you can bask in your own self-righteous glow, right Dr. Hall?
CalMark| 3.14.11 @ 8:45PM
Amazing how Leftist "Christians" (people who go around blowing their own horn about holy they are, probably aren't) ignore real torture in the Middle East.
Then again, that's Moral Relativist Christianity for you: Muslims have different rules. That means stoning to death a woman who was raped, executing Christians for...well...BEING Christian, and other atrocities are "just the way they do business."
Richard Baker| 3.14.11 @ 9:02PM
Was a recipient of water torture in a Survival School while in the 25th Infantry Division in Hawaii in the late '70s. Absolutely no physical harm to me but scary as Hell which was exactly the point to loosen tongues. Bring it on if we get the Intel needed. Ignore these pacifists as the sheep ready for slaughter that they are.
Matthew Quigley| 3.14.11 @ 9:27PM
I have two points to make:
1) Waterboarding isn't torture.
2) The New Testament is NOT a suicide pact.
Read Luke to see just what Christ thought about fighting back...He was NO pacifist, nor were His followers (Essenes and Sicarii...Zealots, in other words. The ones who gave the Romans hell at Masada).
Ryan| 3.15.11 @ 8:32AM
Ummm...Essenes were, at best, contemporaries and those at Masada were Jews, not Christians.
None of the disciples ever raised a sword - that we know of - against Rome after the resurrection - and never advocated overthrowing the government.
I'm not a proponent of pacifism, mind you, but the record needs to be set straight.
Ryan Quanstrom| 3.19.11 @ 10:42AM
When you say read Luke, are you talking about when Jesus asked for swords? The disciples continued their incomprehension and picked up 2? Then Jesus said with exasperation, THATS ENOUGH MORONS!
The disciples and Jesus were really going to start a revolution with 2 swords? 2? What happens when they pull them out? Jesus declares "No more of this!" Obviously Jesus would only be talking to his followers. He was telling them, on the one time they were violent, to stop use of swords. We should have never picked them up again.
Dee See| 3.14.11 @ 10:59PM
---FAR MORE IMPORTANT to expose
is over half a century of systematic, cross the boards, stealth Rockefeller Foundation founded and funded, Arminian Heresy pushing, by the 'World Council of Churches'.
If your church belongs or in any way links with
them -----GET OUT.
If you have ANY regard for America or simply
the meaning and truth of your own soul
----GET OUT.
UNTIL we get that HUAC meets NUREMBERG
inquest and tribunal flying ---some backgroud:
The Lefty Loons a la Mary Knoll are just one
small facet of the truly astounding demolition
of American culture that's now nearing completion.
From the POST-War fundamentalist 'End of Days'
tripping, to the long infiltrated Catholic Church,
to the utterly BOGUS collectivizers a la Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller ----and, for
the 'Sex and the City' deadbeats -----Oprah,
it's ALLLLLLLL been engineered for taking apart
culture, and bringing in the EUGENIC New World
Order agenda.
--------------------ALLLLLLLL of it!
The Bruce| 3.14.11 @ 11:48PM
Can I have your stuff?
Frisbee| 3.15.11 @ 10:00PM
Infiltration into the Catholic church dates back to Judas. Jesus won nonetheless. Why is this an obstacle to your faith? Read the Catechism. It hasn't been infiltrated, and be at Peace with King Jesus.
FTM| 3.15.11 @ 1:53AM
These people are messed up in the head. In a world where I can give you a shot, wait five minutes then ask you any question at all and you answer why would you waste time on torture?
You know good and well that enemy combattants are coached to claim torture. Where is the Marine Corps chopping people's heads off on the internet? They would claim torture just because they know people like this collection of loons will throw a public hissy fit and start waving signs and the like.
The worst thing that you could possible do to the "evangelical left" is to ignore them. Let them go pout in their ivory tower seminaries. I have things to do.
Padoux| 3.15.11 @ 4:00AM
This Duke deal will indeed be a gathering of fools. Such pacifism is fanatical, suicidal, and cruel by advocating we simply allow the mass murder of innocents. Would they defend a family member from harm? If not they are truly cretins of the most foul species who are alive and free today because of the sacrifice of our warriors, past and present.
Another Duke Div-er| 3.15.11 @ 5:31PM
I am deeply concerned at the language on this site in reference to your brothers and sisters in Christ. I hope people consider the reconciliation that needs to take place before we are take Holy Communion. We are in this together.
The peace of Christ be with you...
Tony in Central PA| 3.15.11 @ 9:29PM
I wonder how many of these Duke attendess consider abortion a form of torture ?
francis | 3.15.11 @ 10:36PM
"Love Your Enemies"
Question? Are you a disciple?
Now a disciple is someone who follows the
teachings of another. Do you follow the teachings
of another or are you "self-disciplined"? The One
called The Messiah teaches His disciples to,
"Love your enemies, bless them that curse you,
do good to them that hate you, and pray for them
which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
that you may be the children of your Father, HE
WHO is in Heaven;" (Matthew 5:44-45a)
Hope is your desire is to be a Child of "your
Father, HE WHO is in Heaven"?
Hope is you have chosen to follow the teachings
of The Messiah, He Who is "The Prince of Peace".
As you continue, remember that The Messiah
testified, "the words you hear are not My words,but
they are The Words of The Father(Creator) WHO
sent Me."(John 14:24)
"You have heard that it has been said, an eye for an
eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, that
you resist not evil: but whoever smites you on your
right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any
man will sue you at the law, and take away your coat,
let him have your cloak also. And whoever shall
compel you to go a mile, go with him two. Give to him
that asks you, and from him that would borrow of you,
turn him not away. You have heard that it has been
said, "you shall love your neighbor, and hate your
enemy", but I say unto you, Love Your Enemies, bless
them that curse you, do good to them that hate you,
and pray for them which despitefully use you, and
persecute you; that you may be the Children of your
Father WHO is in heaven: for HE makes HIS sun to
rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the
just and on the unjust. For if you love them who love
you, what reward do you have? Do not even politicians
do so? And if you salute your brethren only, what are
you doing more than others? Do not even politicians
do so? Therefore be perfect, even as your Father, HE
WHO is in heaven, is perfect." (Matthew 5:38-48)
The Testimony of The Messiah you just read was
preceded by the following verse in what the "catholic"
and "christian" religions of this world call their "bible".
"Whoever therefore shall break one of these least
commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be
called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven: but whoever
shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great
in the Kingdom of Heaven." (Matthew 5:19) Some
believe that this bore witness to the laws within the Old
Testimonies, yet this verse rightly applies to the
teachings of The Messiah that followed, one of which
was to "Love Your Enemies"!
The Messiah also testified, "Why do you call Me, Master
(Lord), Master(Lord), and do not the things which I say?"
(Luke 6:46)
And as Our Father spoke through Him, He testified, "If
you love Me keep My commandments". (John14:15,
also read verses 16-24)
At the end of The Messiah's testimony, in what is
commonly called "the sermon on the mount" (Matthew
chapters 5,6 and 7) The Messiah bore witness to the
following, "Not every one that says unto Me, Master,
Master, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he
that does the will of My Father WHO is in Heaven. Many
will say to Me in that day, Master, Master, have we not
prophesied in Thy Name? And in Thy Name have cast
out devils? And in Thy Name done many wonderful
works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew
you: depart from Me, you that work iniquity. Therefore
WHOEVER HEARS these sayings of Mine, AND DOES
them, I will liken him unto A WISE MAN, who built his
house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the
floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that
house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
And EVERY ONE THAT HEARS these sayings of Mine,
AND DOES THEM NOT, shall be likened unto A
FOOLISH MAN, who built his house upon the sand: And
the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds
blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was
the fall of it." (Matthew 7:21-27)
"HEARS these sayings AND DOES THEM"!
May The Messiah's GOD and Father, HE WHO is The
GOD and Father of The Messiah's Brethren, help us
that we would hear and do! For except HE gives the grace,
strength and love, except HE gives of HIS Spirit, none
could do! " And so the elect "cry unto GOD day and night"!
(Luke 18:7b)
The letters in what this world calls the "bible" are in perfect
harmony with The Messiah's teaching of "Love Your
Enemies". "Bless them who persecute you: bless, and
curse not." (Romans 12:14) "Recompense to no man evil
for evil. Provide things honest in the sight of all men. If it is
possible, as much as lies in you, live peaceably with all
men. Dearly beloved, avenge not your selves, but rather
give place unto wrath: for it is written, vengeance is mine;
I will repay, says the Lord. Therefore if your enemy hungers,
feed him; if he is thirsty, give him drink: for in so doing you
will heap coals of fire on his head. Be not overcome of evil,
but overcome evil with good." (Romans 12:17-21)
"See that none renders evil for evil unto any man; but ever
follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to
all men." (I Thessalonians 5:15) "Not rendering evil for evil,
or railing for railing: but contrariwise blessing; knowing that
you were called to do so, that you should inherit a blessing.
For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain
his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:
Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and
ensue it. For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous,
and His ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the
Lord is against them that do evil. And who is he that will harm
you, if you are followers of that which is good? But and if you
suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are you: and be not
afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; But sanctify the
LORD GOD in your hearts: and be ready always to give an
answer to every man that asks you for the reason of the hope
that is in you, with meekness and fear: Having a good
conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of
evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your
good conversation in The Messiah." (I Peter 3:9-13)
"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the
darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high
places." (Ephesians 6:12) "For though we walk in the flesh,
we do not war after the flesh: (For the weapons of our warfare
are not carnal, but mighty through GOD to the pulling down of
strong holds;) Casting down imaginations, and every high
thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of GOD, and
bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of
The Messiah;" (II Corinthians10:3-5)
"You therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of The
Messiah. No man that wars entangles himself with the affairs
of this life; that he may please HIM who has chosen him to be
a soldier." (II Timothy 2:3-4) "I beseech you therefore, brethren,
by the mercies of GOD, that you present your bodies a living
sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto GOD, which is your reasonable
service. And be not conformed to this world: but be transformed
by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that
good, and acceptable, and perfect, Will of GOD."
(Romans 12:1-2)
Many desire and expect ease in this temporal life, but tribulation
awaits those that follow the teachings of The Messiah in this
world! Yet, what a blessed end! "Blessed are they which are
persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the Kingdom
of Heaven. Blessed are you, when men shall revile you, and
persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you
falsely, for My sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great
is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets
which were before you." (Matthew 5:10-12) "Confirming the
souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the
faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the
Kingdom of GOD." (Acts 14:22) "These things I have spoken
unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In the world you
shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome
the world." (John 12:33) "For unto you it is given in the behalf
of The Messiah, not only to believe on Him, but also to suffer
for His sake; having the same conflict which you saw in me, and
now hear to be in me." (Philippians 1:29-30) "Forasmuch then as
The Messiah has suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves
likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh
hath ceased from sin; That he no longer should live the rest of his
time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the Will of GOD."
(I Peter 4:1-2)
Whom do you follow? Do you desire The Will of "The One GOD,
Father of All"? Have you chosen to serve GOD and follow HIS
Only Begotten Son, The Messiah, on The Way to The Truth of
The Life? The Messiah was "a servant of The Only True GOD"
and The Messiah Loved His Enemies! Whom do you follow?
Whom do you serve?
"No man can serve two masters!" (Matt 6:24a)
Choose rightly! Choose to follow The Messiah! Chose to be His
disciple and call upon GOD day and night for the strength needed
to "Love Your Enemies" so that you might "enter in at the strait
gate": "for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to
destruction, and many there are who enter that gate: Because
strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leads unto life, and
few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)
Be one of the few!
Lest there be confusion it is well to remember that The Messiah
"Loved His Enemies", and so it was when He rebuked the
pharisee's, those religious zealots who denied Him as they
sought to crucify The Truth: "Woe unto you, scribes and
pharisee's, hypocrites! For you are like whited sepulchres,
which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of
dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so you also
outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within you are full
of hypocrisy and iniquity. Woe unto you, scribes and pharisee's,
hypocrites! You build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish
the sepulchres of the righteous," (Matthew 23:27-29)
Yes, The Messiah loved them!
And so He told them The Truth even though He knew the
pharisee's wanted to kill Him. "Some save with compassion,
others with fear...." (Jude 22-23)
"But i say unto you who hear, Love Your Enemies!! (Luke 6:27a)
Are you listening? Do you hear?
The Messiah testified, "...whoever HEARS these sayings of
Mine, and DOES them, I will liken him unto a WISE man, which
built his house upon a rock:" (Matthew 7:24) and "And WHY
do you call Me, Master, Master, and do not the things which I
say?" (Luke 6:46) "For whoever shall do the will of My Father
WHO is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and
mother." (Matthew 13:50)
That which The Messiah taught was of The Only True GOD,
for The Messiah spoke The Words of GOD, and GOD's Word
is HIS Will! And The Messiah testified, "Love Your Enemies"!
Do you "Love Your Enemies"?
And the religious systems that are of this world?
Do they follow The Messiah, He Who is
"The Prince of Peace"?
Do they exhort their "members" to "Love Your Enemies"
in deed, or in word only?
Seems the fruit of death is born of religion's way,
for life is but a pawn in the wicked game they play ;-(
For it seems that religious systems but carry on the
legacy of the pharisee's ;-(
The Messiah testified, "Whoever lives and believes in
Me(My Testimony and My example of The Life) shall
never die!"
And then The Messiah questioned.
"Do you believe this?" YES!
And you? Do you believe?
Or do you believe in death?
Those who believe in death can not
"Love Their Enemies" ;-(
If you do believe in The Life, then you will
"Love Your Enemies" for you know victory
over death is assured! And The Victor, The
Messiah, desired above all else, "Father,
not My will, But THY Will Be Done"!
And those who seek to follow The Messiah on
"The Narrow Way" will have the same desire.
Simply, the desire for "Father, not my will, But THY
Will Be Done" is "The Way to The Truth of The Life".
So simple that "a child will understand"!
An adopted child of "The One GOD, Father of All"
that is.
Such "children" will no longer deny and defy The
Father that created them, for they know that The
Life is Their Father's Will.......
HIS "children" will no longer be of those "GOD will
destroy because they are destroying HIS Creation
(land, air, water, vegetation, creatures)"(Rev 11:18)
and HIS "children" will no longer be of those who are
perverting that which is Spirit(Truth, Light, Life, Peace,
Love, Faith,,,, All that is Truly Good) ;-(
Lest there be confusion, be aware of the fact that
The Messiah testified of "a wicked world" and that
"those of this wicked world hated Him".
The Messiah also testified that those of this wicked
world "would also hate His disciples"!
And John testified, "love not the world or its things",
and "if any man loves this world, the Love of The
Father is not in him", for "the WHOLE world is under
the control of the evil one"!
And James testified, "whoever is a friend of this
world is the enemy of GOD"!
"Love Your Enemies" refers to mankind. Disciples
of The Messiah are not to love this "world", for this
"wicked world" is but the product of "the lust of the
eye, the lust of the flesh and the pride of life" that
fuels mankind's "imag"ination. And mankind's
"imag"ination, "evil inventions" and self-centered
ways are destroying Creation and perverting that
which is Spirit ;-(
And "the god of this world", he who is "the father
of lies, is "d"evil spirit that dominates and provides
the fuel for mankind's "imag"ination. The children
of The Only True GOD are to resist that evil, lying
spirit which is leading those who are of this wicked
world along "the broad way to destruction" ;-(
"Spiritual warfare" indeed and Truth.......
You can not use the religious systems that call
themselves "catholic", or "christian", or "pentecostal",
or "mormon", or "jehovah witnesses", or any other
system of religion as an excuse for not believing and
seeking to follow the teachings of The Messiah,
because "religions" do not follow The Messiah,
religions follow and believe the lies that are of
mankind's "imag"ination.
And because mankind's "imag"ination created the
"catholic/christian" theo(ry)logical lies, "The Way of
Truth is evil spoken of" ;-( (2 Peter 2:2)
Yet, There Is Hope!
Hope! Not for that which is of mankind's "imag"ination
and which is destroying Creation and perverting that
which is Spirit ;-( But There Is Hope for that which is of
The Only True GOD, that which is Truth, Light and Life.
Hope! For Miracles do happen!
Hope is there be will those who experience The Miracle
that is receiving "a love of The Truth" for they will "Love
Their Enemies", as they experience:
Peace, in spite of the dis-ease(no-peace) that is of this
wicked world and it's systems of religion for "the WHOLE
(not just a portion) world is under the control of the evil
one"(1JN5:19) indeed and Truth.......
Truth IS, a lie is not.......
Those who abide in The Truth, "Love Their Enemies".......
The Ironically Blue Devil| 3.16.11 @ 4:35AM
As long as we are Americans first and Christians second. Francis, what's with all this scripture mumbo-jumbo? Remember, Americans are God's chosen people (sorry to my Jewish friends), whatever kind of hate speech and evil bigotry we can come up with is fine because we are God's beloved. Of course it's ok to torture and kill Muslims, we all know God doesn't love them. They obviously aren't our brothers and sisters. Let's get 'em all, I say! And while we're at it, let's get rid of all those illegal immigrants coming into God's country. Nevermind that they may be hungry...or thirsty...or in need of shelter...or love. If they are breaking the laws of this great nation of ours (God's) then they need to pack their sombreros up and go back from whence they came. How dare those Marxist dreamers spout off ridiculous notions like "loving your enemies" and "praying for those who persecute you"! Like Jesus would ever say anything as silly and un-American as that! Heresy!
AmyLaura| 3.16.11 @ 4:47AM
Dear Readers,
Turns out I have been an idealist on all sorts of thorny, moral issues related to purportedly saving human life by way of discarding other human life. These essays prompted tough comments from many sister feminists, but, well, they weren't nothing like the comments here. Whew! Good thing I am one tough broad!
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/.....ense-equal
http://www.religion-online.org.....title=3064
(You can find more essays by google searching my name and "embryos.")
A heart bleeding for some forms of human life is apparently on-message. Jesus, save even us.
And, finally, blessings, Mark Tooley. Blessings for reconciliation between friends someday. Julian of Norwich lived through worse, right? I anticipate sitting together and sharing some good bread and wine at the heavenly banquet. God does have that sort of sense of humor.
Matt M| 3.18.11 @ 5:06PM
But Polycarp said, "You, I should deem worthy of an account; for we have been taught to render honor, as is befitting, to rulers and authorities appointed by God so far as it does us no harm; but as for these, I do not consider them worthy that I should make defense to them." ...
(The proconsul) tried to persuade him to deny the faith, saying, ... "Swear by the fortune of Caesar; change your mind; say, 'Away with the atheists!"'
But Polycarp looked with earnest face at the whole crowd of lawless heathen in the arena, and motioned to them with his hand. Then, groaning and looking up to heaven, he said, "Away with the atheists!"
Tom| 3.18.11 @ 9:11PM
Practicality does not trump morality. If we allow torture, where do we stop? We have no problem condemning other regimes which torture (yes, to a greater extent than what we have done), but we justify our own nation's sins. As Christians, we cannot rationalize the immoral. Did Jesus call the legions of angels at his crucifixion? He could have. Did Paul kick and scream at his trials/execution? Did Ignatius (an early "Father" for the Church) try to escape his impending martyrdom? The answer is "no" to all these questions. Of course, torture may get answers quicker, but is the blood on our hands worth it? Is our faith so shallow that we're not willing to suffer for it?
Dee See| 3.19.11 @ 10:58PM
IF you're church or temple has ANYTHING to do
with the toxic, morally relative 'ecumenicalism'
of the EUGENIST 'World Council of Churches'
or other Rockefeller/Globalist fronts ---you have been infiltrated, the genuine scriptural truth
you were seeking has been compromised and
destroyed.
LEAVE immediately.
Like the late great John Bunyan, form your own
little meeting place.
Keep it small, keep it disciplined and take heed
to the signs falling everywhere.
DEFEAT franchise slum Christianity a la
Arminian Heretics such as Billy Graham, Oprah,
Joel Osteen, all of those crackerjack tent shows,
a la Murdoch stooge Glenn Beck.
It would be a great move to also throw out
your television and radio. They're programming
tools and at this point little else.
AS it comes down, DO get to the truth at least
for you and yours.
The Ironically Blue Devil| 3.21.11 @ 12:34AM
What?
Matt M| 3.22.11 @ 10:12PM
Don't try to understand that post-- it's standard fare from the kooky pre-trib, dispensational, literalist camp. Ecumenism is the devil! Billy Graham is too liberal! God hates the gays!
The part I didn't understand was the formatting. Was it originally a haiku that just didn't stop?