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A Further Perspective

Scrapping the Hero of Benghazi

By on 3.1.11 @ 6:08AM

Britain’s defense goes from bad to unbelievable.

There is generally a certain satisfaction in being able to say, “I told you so!” On January 18 and February 23 I published articles on the ruin of Britain’s defense capabilities, just as the Arab turmoil demonstrated once again that the world appears to be moving into a new phase of dangerous instability.

A few days ago a British frigate, HMS Cumberland, put into Benghazi to evacuate several hundred British, American, and other civilians threatened by the fighting there. One American interviewed expressed his relief at seeing the White Ensign flying.

Cumberland, a powerful, modern and relatively new ship, happened to be in the area because it was on its way back to Britain to be scrapped, part of the present government’s mad scheme to reduce the Navy to just 12 frigates and 12 destroyers, along with comparable cuts to the Army and the Royal Air Force.

Prime Minister David Cameron, meanwhile, has been swanning around Cairo, and achieving no one knows exactly what, though certainly he now has plenty of surplus weaponry to offer whoever takes power there.

Now comes the truly incredible part: while on his jaunt, Cameron left the running of the country — during a serious international crisis — to deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, who actually (I kid you not!) forgot he was meant to be in charge of Britain and departed on a skiing holiday in Switzerland. When reminded of the fact, he pointed out that he was able to keep in touch with London by Blackberry should he be required.

All this hammers home the point I have recently been trying to make: Britain is being run by incompetents who do not even pretend to take the first responsibility of any government — the Defense of the Realm — seriously. The U.S. has its problems but I have little doubt that in the U.S. such behavior would lead to immediate impeachment proceedings. And this abdication of national self-respect has taken place under a coalition government with a Conservative majority. The Daily Mail is admittedly a right-wing paper with a strong line in indignant stories about what’s-Britain-coming-to, but even it doesn’t use the work “treachery” lightly.

HMS Cumberland is already for two reasons an image of the sad decline of the Royal Navy and of Britain’s defense forces in general. The previous ship to bear the name was a heavy cruiser, and before that it was borne over the centuries by several capital ships. Britain today does not have a single cruiser of any description and its last serving capital ship, HMS Ark Royal, is also due for disposal (The last capital ship in commission is Nelson’s Victory, which if things keep going as they are, may be required to put to sea again. Fortunately several of its sails as well as its cannons have been preserved along with the hull.)

The present Cumberland also made the headlines when, in obedience to the diktats of political correctness, a Satanist chapel was installed to accommodate the proclivities of a Satanist crewmember. No, I am not making this up — it is not exactly a cheerful thought that in the new, non-discriminatory Royal Navy a Satanist might get his finger on a certain red button. (By way of contrast, I toured one of the last British cruisers, HMS Tiger, some years ago. The sentence in polished brass letters on the ceremonial rum-cask: FEAR GOD; HONOUR THE QUEEN, stuck in my mind.) The phrase “What would Nelson have said?” has been used in so many headlines to stories about Naval cuts and other scandals that it has become a cliché, but in this particular case it seems a reasonable question.

Senior officers have said British forces would struggle to mount even a small-scale military intervention as the cupboard for resources is bare.

They have also warned that there is little chance of even being able to mount rescue operations similar to that which Cumberland undertook in the future. Service chiefs have also warned the Prime Minister that destroying the Harrier jet force and scrapping Ark Royal would put personnel at considerable risk. The Army has just one battalion on standby for emergency operations and this is said to lack the correct equipment for training.

As well as other losses the Navy’s amphibious landing force will be cut in half by the mothballing of the landing ship Bulwark and other craft.

One senior officer was quoted as saying: “We certainly could not do an operation like Sierra Leone again because we have no fast jets. Even to achieve and sustain a foothold ashore would be difficult.” Another senior Navy officer said, “The locker is not just empty it’s completely threadbare.”

H. G. Wells suggested for his epitaph: “I told you so, you bloody fools!”

About the Author

Hal G.P. Colebatch’s “Immram,” Counterstrike, is being published by Australian publisher Imaginites.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (81) |

PaulyD| 3.1.11 @ 7:15AM

Unfortunately, the Brits have been following the script of the Suicide of the West for a long time now. This is how great nations die.

Intelligent Design| 3.1.11 @ 8:48AM

This is just what one would expect of a nation that allows shari'a courts to undermine freedom. The U.S. is in the process of doing the same thing. Our elected representatives are too timid to identify Islam as an organization subversive to the Constitution, even though the evidence is overwhelming. What do Muslim countries have in common? Lack of freedom. And the Muslims want to export this product, along with oil, to the U.S. They correctly judge that we are so eager to get their oil that we will ignore the evil of Islam, call terrorists "insurgents", give Muslim terrorists the rights of American citizens in our courts, allow propaganda offices (mosques) to be built all over the U.S., allow Muslims to immigrate into the U.S., and pretend that the Muslim Brotherhood is the equivalent of a Western political party, or a group of "community organizers". Our political leaders are so dumb that they are risking the lives of 100,000 American soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan while Muslim terrorists walk across the Mexican border into the United States.

Islam is subversive to the Constitution, to the same degree as Hitler's Nazism and Soviet Communism.

Alan Brooks| 3.1.11 @ 4:31PM

But Islamics aren't stupid, they know we only perceive their lands as petroleum spigots.
So it is worse than you think.

RacerJim| 3.2.11 @ 10:06AM

It is worse than too many Americans think.
We have an Islamic/Muslim POTUS.

Melvin| 3.1.11 @ 7:32AM

It as if this madness is part of some script, that was developed in the former Soviet or should I dare say, new Soviet Union?
How else could this utter and senseless stupidity be explained, or should it even be attempted to be explained, because no matter how it is cut, it does not make one bit of sense.
For you Kumbaya types. History will back me up on this. There has, and will always be bad men in the world bent on destruction, enslavement, and tyranny.
There is no such thing as, "Can't we all get along." Unfortunately God didn't put us together like that. There is someone who always wants to kick someone else's butt. That is just the cold stark fact of the thing.
And England leaving itself naked before the mast, is only inviting trouble upon itself. The EU is not going to be part of some grand defense of England, if anything Brussels will pick over the bones of English citizens only to enhance its own power, because with England out of the way, that side of the world opens itself up to treachery and deceit.

MikeD| 3.1.11 @ 7:49AM

Having lived in London twice, I could hardly believe the difference between the two times, 1985 and 1998. One particular episode that typifies the state of Britain today is the woman who murdered her child; and was then awarded a trip on a yacht to the Med intended to provide solace to MOTHERS WHO HAD LOST A CHILD!

Unfortunately, we're not far behind. Barry the msulim has been conspicuously absent on several occasions during potentially dangerous international crises and domestic disasters. It all points back to the mental disease of liberalism. Even libs know it and now want to be called "progressives". Same pig, different lipstick.

I specifically warn all the residents of the Falklands to learn Spanish as quickly as possible because they're fools if they think Britain can defend ANYTHING. And Americans: Keep vigilance over barry and his fellow thugs; that's what he wants to do here. He's already working on it. He can't even keep his mouth shut about union thuggery in Wisconsin. Finally, America is watching, even as the media tries to hide it.

irish19| 3.2.11 @ 1:33AM

I was thinking exactly the same thing about the Falklands. How long before the Argies waltz in and take them back?

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:28PM

MikeD, might I just mention how awesome you are? Thanks.

St. Thor| 3.1.11 @ 8:47AM

Queen Elizabeth I oversaw the beginning of the British Empire, Queen Elizabeth II is overseeing its destruction. Nice symmetry for the leftist fascist progs.

Pelligrino| 3.3.11 @ 2:35AM

And a lot of good it does to have those "royals." Royal pains/royal idiots.

Okay, so the coffers are a bit lacking in London these days? Well, sell off all the stuff the royals possess. That might be just a 2-4 year band aid for military hardware and personnel necessities, but it would do far more for the nation.

Exactly what good do all those blue bloods provide? (Aside from the endless gossip columns in rag newspapers.)

Sorry. Cannot hold it in anymore: The UK of GB and N. Ireland is obviously useless since no one there has had the wisdom to jettison QE II (I don't mean the vessel) and Co.

Melvin| 3.1.11 @ 9:12AM

Something just struck me as being extremely odd. Normally when countries have relatively new ships or aircraft they put them into a mothball status for a time.
Something doesn't fit here. Destruction of a new ships, and NIMROD anti submarine hunters.
Something is definitely amiss here, that people are not seeing.

Petronius| 3.1.11 @ 9:28AM

The thing we need to watch is what indoctrination our future officer corps is getting force fed in our service academies. When vegetables like Wesley Clark can make it to top flag rank and JAG officers breathe down the necks of every company commander in the field telling them they can't shoot back, why even have an army?

Melvin| 3.1.11 @ 9:38AM

Dog get me started on these flag ranked velvet queens.
There are two classes within the United States Military. The Warrior Class, who swear an oath to defend this Country from all enemies foreign and domestic. The there is the Political Class aka Velvet Queens who base their tactical decisions on advancement of their career.
When we in the United States, who desire to abide by the US Constitution and have a strong, capable, and efficient military are going to rise up and clean house, not only politically but also in the United States Military. Many of the Flag ranked Velvet Queens need to be put out to pasture.
And if there any Generals and Admirals who read American Spectator you know exactly what the hell I mean.

Pelligrino| 3.3.11 @ 2:46AM

Please add George W. Casey (current top Army general and member of the Joint Chiefs) to the list of flaming velvet queens.

And GW Bush chose him/elevated him? Yes.

(maybe the various options weren't that great?)

We DO indeed typically now just have self-serving careerists at the very top.

This needs serious attention.

I guess it is the same in Britain. Lousy leadership in the political realm and military leadership.

Earlier poster: The HMS Cumberland will be destroyed?

The Royal Navy web site says she was commissioned in June 1989. So she's not new...
(but I side with those who think mothballing is more prudent if destruction is in the present plan.)

Louis Jenkins| 3.1.11 @ 9:38AM

Rule Britiania!! The sun never sets on the British Empire!! Oh, I forgot, that was in the 1800s. The sun sets on the British Empire. Soon, if we're not careful, it will set on the USA. With the USA taking up the slack by keeping Europe secure, what's the difference? We too will go to sleep, until some mega power (Islam for instance) pops up (Islam already has), but by then it will be too late for jolly ole' England and darn near too late for the USA. They will pass on to pages of history. We are in an undeclared war with Islam. We'd better be ready to take up the slack.

KyMouse| 3.1.11 @ 10:08AM

Am I remembering correctly that a few years ago, a group of British naval folks were taken hostage, and they did everything their captors told them to do, including appearing on television? And that they had been instructed to cooperate under such conditions?

A far cry from John McCain hitting himself in the face with a chair so that his captors couldn't use him for propaganda purposes.

Please correct me if I'm wrong. I'd love to be.

Bob T. | 3.1.11 @ 11:39AM

Glad to. The American hero POW you are referring to was then Naval flight Commander James Bond Stockdale. One of the most decorated heroes of the Vietnam War including the Medal of Honor.

From Wikipedia: "He (Stockdale) was held as a prisoner of war in the Hoa Lo prison for the next seven years. Locked in leg irons in a bath stall, he was routinely tortured and beaten. When told by his captors that he was to be paraded in public, Stockdale slit his scalp with a razor to purposely disfigure himself so that his captors could not use him as propaganda. When they covered his head with a hat, Stockdale beat himself with a stool until his face was swollen beyond recognition ...Stockdale was part of a group of about 11 prisoners known as the Alcatraz Gang"... "In Alcatraz, each of the 11 men were kept in solitary confinement”.

Stockdale went thru incredible, unbelievable suffering and gained the utmost respect of his fellow POWs. His heroic courage helped others to endure and survive what to most of us would be unendurable.

Thank you for letting me set the record straight. This story should NOT be mistakenly associated with John McCain.

Jennie Laurie| 3.2.11 @ 2:36PM

Too bad he went on to run as Ross Perot's vice president. But still, an honorable man.

Richard Baker| 3.1.11 @ 10:12AM

A tragedy that England, as we all knew it, is gone. What will soon be left is an Islamic Republic/Theocracy because the Brits lost the will to survive. I suppose Ramsay MacDonald and all the other Socialists over the last 100+ years must be so happy. They've destroyed a great country because they could. Sad.

irish19| 3.2.11 @ 1:36AM

I wonder what that will mean for the Olympics next year? Particularly women's sports.

Cabermon| 3.1.11 @ 11:15AM

The problem with spending all you money on butter and none of it on guns is that someone will eventually steal your butter.

RichTex| 3.1.11 @ 11:30AM

I understand that Argentinian real estate firms are already marketing property in the Islas Malvinas (formerly the Falkland Islands). It’s just a matter of time.

And if Britannia no longer rules the waves, does that mean the Britons will become slaves?

Derek Leaberry| 3.1.11 @ 11:33AM

Looks like Captain Jack Aubrey will be without a ship.

Bob T. | 3.1.11 @ 11:42AM

In reference to “KyMouse” above:

The American hero POW you are referring to was then Naval flight Commander James Bond Stockdale. One of the most decorated heroes of the Vietnam War including the Medal of Honor.

From Wikipedia: "He (Stockdale) was held as a prisoner of war in the Hoa Lo prison for the next seven years. Locked in leg irons in a bath stall, he was routinely tortured and beaten. When told by his captors that he was to be paraded in public, Stockdale slit his scalp with a razor to purposely disfigure himself so that his captors could not use him as propaganda. When they covered his head with a hat, Stockdale beat himself with a stool until his face was swollen beyond recognition ...Stockdale was part of a group of about 11 prisoners known as the Alcatraz Gang"... "In Alcatraz, each of the 11 men were kept in solitary confinement”.

Stockdale went thru incredible, unbelievable suffering and gained the utmost respect of his fellow POWs. His heroic courage helped others to endure and survive what to most of us would be unendurable.

Thank you for letting me set the record straight. This story should NOT be mistakenly associated with John McCain.

Richard Baker| 3.1.11 @ 12:00PM

A humorous note about Admiral Stockdale was his statement at the VP debate when he was running with Perot. At one point, he looked at the camera and said ""Who am I? Why am I here?" Rest in Peace, Admiral and Thanks.

dsayne| 3.1.11 @ 12:29PM

I say, old chap, where are we going and why are we in this hand-basket?

Franco| 3.1.11 @ 12:31PM

What a bunch of whiners! Cut spending, cut spending, you howl, and when they do it, you gasp in horror! It's not like Britain has, like, an entire empire to defend anymore, so why do they need so many ships and planes and stuff? Don't they have any superheroes, like Captain America, or something?

John K| 3.1.11 @ 1:10PM

Maybe you would like an ally who can actually do something? The British government is cutting defence spending, the welfare gravytrain is sacrosanct.

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:30PM

"Francisco Franco is still dead."

OLDRAY| 3.1.11 @ 12:35PM

Interesting and very sad article. What a change from the brave Brits I served along side in North Africa and Italy in 1943/44/45..What a betrayal of the couragous English civilians who stood up against the heavy bombings without a bit of weakness. Shame on current British politics. Despite cost, the USA must retain a strong military. Peace requires a much stronger Navy, Army, and Air Force than current planning projects. Thanks for a fine eye opening article.

John K| 3.1.11 @ 12:37PM

I agree entirely with this article, except it states that the Royal Navy will be reduced to 12 destroyers and 12 frigates. If only! In fact, after the latest "Conservative" cuts, we will have 13 frigates and just 6 destroyers, a pathetic total of just 19 surface escorts. We used to have more aircraft carriers than that!

Occam's Tool| 3.1.11 @ 12:37PM

Once they were great. This is America's future under the Paultards.

Clint| 3.1.11 @ 5:10PM

Fanatic Israel Firster Troll, Tool Job is Fixated On Our Tea Party Favorite Dr. Ron Paul, because Dr.Ron Paul doesn't asskiss Tool Job's Personal Obsessed Israel Firster Agenda.

After WWII The UK was financially exhausted and heavily in debt to the US. This left it almost impossible to defend its far-flung colonies by force.

The Tea Party Rebellion Escalates.

Rise Up.

irish19| 3.2.11 @ 1:39AM

Your tea party favorite-not mine.

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:39PM

Thank you, Irish19.

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:33PM

You know, I just read Allen West's definition of the Tea Party's views: 1) Defend America, 2) Cut Taxes, and 3) look for private enterprise solutions to problems wherever possible. Nowhere does the Tea Party encourage state encouraged buggery by Foreign Terrorists, as Ron Paul does. Methinks Clint is confused.

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:41PM

"Ring, ring," Clint. My message said nothing about Israel.

Ken (Old Texican)| 3.1.11 @ 1:06PM

Mr. Colebatch, the article just makes me unutterably sad.

ABNCP| 3.1.11 @ 3:20PM

I spent periods of 12 years in the United Kingdom.
Those periods were in the middle fifty's, the early sixty's, the late seventy's and the early eighty's. I served with a rather large airline,... the United States Air Force. The differences I saw in that country from the fifty's thru the eighty's were enormous. Although our country saw a lot of change during that period it was nothing like what happened in the U.K. If someone wants to understand what happened a good book to read is the Fourth Protocol by Frederick Forsyth, Chapter 4. It explains in great detail how the British Labour Unions were taken over by the Progressive/Marxests and how a once Powerful and courageous country started it's downslide. Maggie Thatcher slowed that down but once she was gone the political correctness types took over with all the destruction that causes to a countries mores. I can only hope the British people wake up in time to bring their country back to where it should be. We are going to need all the help we can get during what is going to be a long and terrible war against radical Islam.

John K| 3.2.11 @ 12:37PM

You're not wrong I'm afraid. I think Britain is doomed.

Dan| 3.1.11 @ 4:02PM

Britain is on its way to becoming a Muslim country. Muslims in Britain are increasing their rate of birth and the Brits are not. The fall of the British Empire can be viewed as happening when their leaders became slaves to political correctness. If Obama is reelected in 2012, or if Obama is able to put another socialist Democrat on the Supreme Court or if the U.S. elects a weak Republican in 2012 we will follow Britain's lead.

Pelligrino| 3.3.11 @ 2:59AM

There is also an incredibly successful effort to illegally smuggle in non Europeans, particularly those from Islamic nations like Pakistan, Egypt, Morroco, Algeria, Iraq, and others.

How they don't see this and raise cain to cease it NOW is beyond me.

The crazy irony is that the illegals are sucking the system dry in state bennies just months or 1-2 years after illicit arrival.

(Oh, we do the same thing here on our southern border with Mexico and -- this too -- illegals entering in Gulf states like Florida....)

Redstateboy| 3.1.11 @ 4:52PM

I suspect Ceasar could come back with his Legions and mount another successful landing and take over the Island.

c. j. acworth| 3.1.11 @ 6:05PM

Quick, somebody, before the Brits scrap the Cumberland, give them a call and ask them how much they want for her. We might pick her up cheap!

Clint Lovell| 3.1.11 @ 6:42PM

Words cannot express the shock of seeing the lion lose its teeth without even a whimper.

John K| 3.2.11 @ 12:39PM

I don't think any country has ever fallen so far and so fast. In the space of a man's life we have gone from the greatest empire in history to a pathetic, ineffective travesty. Shocking how that could happen.

Pelligrino| 3.3.11 @ 3:01AM

And....we're sorry & sad to see you and GB go, John. We are.

Jeamar37| 3.1.11 @ 7:20PM

Maybe they could ask Their Royal Majesties Perhaps their majesties couldBarak and Michelle fill in. Would they fly the Court Personal Trainer to London 4 days/week? Such courtiers must be as hard to find in London as in London on the Thames as in Washington on the Potomac.

Jeamar37| 3.1.11 @ 7:22PM

Ooops! Editing needed. Is any Western government functioning right now?

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:33PM

Israel.

AlltheWayAirborne| 3.1.11 @ 8:28PM

What's so bad here? Hadji doesn't have a Navy. I like the idea of governments getting smaller, and I really like the prospect of America not being Earth's hall monitor.

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:34PM

Prefer China, then? Power abhors a vacuum.

Dee See| 3.1.11 @ 9:34PM

"With MASSIVE third world immigration
we hope to have destroyed British culture
beyond repair within a couple of decades."
-TONY BLAIR
Globalist
(leaked interview on Alan Watt)

---FREE TRADE, GLOBALISM, EUGENICS
------GOOD!

---NATIONS, HISTORY, FAMILY, TRUE
CULTURE --------BAD!

Keep a goin' kiddies! ---Keep a goin'

----HUAC meets NUREMBERG---

----JUST KEEP A GOIN'!

Richard Baker| 3.2.11 @ 7:43AM

AlltheWayAirborne:
In a perfect world your idea would be great. However, since we don't have such a utopia we have to remain engaged regardless. Personally, I'd love it if we could let these screwed up countries around the world self-destruct and not affect us but that's not going to happen.

Booker | 3.2.11 @ 10:38AM

In common with the other articles in this series, true in part but some points are misleading. I completely agree with the comments about incompetent leadership. UK defence has been grossly mismanaged in recent years, with a lack of strategic thinking, wasteful procurement and operational overstretch combining to create an unsustainable situation.
If defence is to be brought back under control, however, difficult decisions are unavoidable. HMS Cumberland and her sisters are dated and expensive to operate (all 20+ years old and with a basic design from the 1970s). If these ships are spared, further cuts to future programmes will result. For better or worse, defence will be forced to live within its means.
The comment about cruisers is a red herring. Very few navies operate cruisers any more and haven't done so for decades. Their role has been taken over by destroyers and frigates. I don't intend to comment on the mischievous reference to the Satanic chapel, as it's only purpose seems to be ridicule. Yes, political correctness has gone way too far. Despite this, and with or without Satanic chapels, it should be remembered that the RN is still one of the most capable and professional navies in the world.
RN chiefs have in part brought the current situation on themselves by insisting on two new large aircraft carriers and accompanying jets, which has resulted in savage cuts to the rest of the fleet. It is highly questionable as to whether the UK actually needs these ships, and both are likely to face early withdrawal.
It is also important to rember that politicians of all persuasions respond to the priorities of the electorate. Unfortunately, the majority of the general public see health, education and the welfare state in general as being more important than defence. This means that their elected representatives behave accordingly.
The UK has one of the largest defence budgets in the world. A budget that the vast majority of nations, including most of NATO, could only dream about. Political leaders past and present must take a large slice of the blame for the UK's failures in defence, but the real situation is much, much more complex than this.

Pelligrino| 3.3.11 @ 3:11AM

Thanks, Booker. Is that an alias you use in London at the HQ Royal Navy Public Affairs Office?

The first two sentences of the last paragraph lifted directly from some Annual Military Budget Review Circular circa 2007?

The size of the budget does not a competent, (needed) lethal, robust, well-equiped, well-trained Navy make.

Whitewashing (the truth) never ceases, does it?

Booker | 3.3.11 @ 2:15PM

I am in complete agreement. The other point Mr Colebatch fails to mention is that most other western navies are significantly smaller than they were 25 years ago (end of the cold war, move to smaller numbers of more capable platforms, etc). Recent swingeing cuts to the German navy are a good example of this. The RN (along with the French Navy) is still the most capable navy in the region by a significant margin.

Think Defence | 3.3.11 @ 5:57PM

HMS Cumberland was commissioned in 1989 but they are expensive to operate, with a large(ish) crew

nick carter| 3.2.11 @ 3:24PM

WHAT SORT OF OPERA COULD GILBERT & SULLIVAN MAKE OF THE PRESENT SITUATION?
HMS PINAFORE RE-VISITED?

Mark Bekusch | 3.2.11 @ 3:47PM

Hah thanks for reminding me we have a quisling administration in charge of my country. It is all part of Cameron, Cleggs and milibands plan to let the UK be swallowed up by the anti democratic EU. If this goes ahead you yanks can kiss NATO goodbye as the EU hates you guys, however please remember there are patriots like myself who value my country and its partnership with yours.
Regards
MB
Disgruntled Scottish Veteran!

Irish22| 3.2.11 @ 8:15PM

When government spends all the money doing things it's not supposed to do, there is no money left to do the things it is supposed to do!

John K| 3.3.11 @ 11:17AM

That sums up the problem in a nutshell.

thomas| 3.3.11 @ 2:53AM

Hal, ask any historian and he will tell you that cuts to the naval budget have been going on for centuries. Indeed, Nelson himself was put on half pay and mothballed on the odd occasion.

Moreover, the politicians aren't entirely to blame. The navy want the very best of everything, AWDs (SAMPSON is very expensive), two 70,000 ton carriers. The Astute submarines too are top notch. These are some very expensive toys. Something has to give. If the navy was getting like for like replacements then it would be of real concern, but they're not.

We also learn that the Typhoon will cost athe nation a staggering £37 billion, for 160 planes. Hmm.

It's not that the UK defence is being underfunded - 3rd largest military budget in the world for a nation with the world's 6th largest economy. It's more that the money isn't being utilised as well as it could be.

John K| 3.3.11 @ 11:20AM

This is true, the MoD is dysfunctional, and procurement is a scandal. When you get to the stage that you spend £4 billion on 9 Nimrods, and then cut them up before they even enter service, you have gone beyond parody. Is anyone ever held to account? Of course not, this is the civil service, and that's the problem.

Booker | 3.3.11 @ 1:42PM

Right on all counts! The way the money is spent is the key issue. "Gold plated" platforms are the order of the day, then the RN complains about hull numbers. The last time British carriers were essential was in the Falklands war (almost 30 years ago), and they are unlikely to be needed in the next 30. The UK won't have enough ships to put together a viable carrier battle group unilaterally, so the new carriers will be of limited use against serious opposition. Meanwhile, the ships that the Navy does actually need are neglected and/or reduced in number.

John K| 3.3.11 @ 7:05PM

Booker:

You need carriers if you are to undertake any sort of military action out of range of your own land bases, that's what they are for. If you don't have them your navy is tied to your nearest air base, and they don't move that far.

Vaemar| 3.3.11 @ 5:53AM

Booker: "RN chiefs have in part brought the current situation on themselves by insisting on two new large aircraft carriers and accompanying jets, " - for shame! They should be keel-hauled! Fancy wanting your navy to have decent equipment! Flogging with the cat-o-nine-tails is too good for them! (China is planning FOUR new aircraft-carriers, by the way).

The point about Cumberland having a Satanist chapel is highly relevant - it shows how political correctness, or worse, has eaten into the British amed forces.

Navies, like other forces, need quantity as well as quality, if only - in peacetime - to provide atteactive career-paths for the best and brightest. Further, of course, navies are much harder to expand than armies in war.

Booker | 3.3.11 @ 1:56PM

China may well be planning four new carriers, but they are an emerging superpower with a far stronger economy than the UK. Economic strength underlies military strength - remember what happened to the Soviet Union?
I think I acknowledge that political correctness has gone too far, but the comparison between HMS Cumberland's Satanic chapel and HMS Tiger's rum-cask motto tells us precisely nothing about the modern RN's effectiveness as a fighting force (the main purpose of the article).

SteveLV| 3.3.11 @ 3:26PM

If I may inject one small note of optimism into the debate... The Brits may be gradually bleeding their Navy to death, but at least one corner of the old empire seems to have its mind in the right place. The Australians, after watching the American surface fleet slowly dwindle (not to mention the shortcomings of the current commander in chief), along with the mothballing of the British fleet, seem to have had one of those blood-chilling moments of clarity on the subject of national defense. The Aussies have budgeted quite a bit of money for new ships and subs. At least one corner of the old Anglosphere seems to still have a pulse.

Smerk| 3.3.11 @ 4:33PM

The world is on fire my friends in GB. I was out raged when Obama returned the bust of one of your greatest leaders, Churchill. Have any of you read his 6 volume history of WW II? He was brilliant. Anyway we are all being duped, the west, middle east, Christian, Jew and Muslim. EVERYTHING has been planned and is now being executed by the globalists, your royal family is a part of this group. I would ask several things of you. First and foremost prepare. Buy enough food to last at least a year, and prepare for the defence of your family. I started 3 months ago. I've studied history my whole adult life. VERY dark clouds are on the horizon. I wish us all well....Pray even if you don't believe in a God, it can't hurt.
PS check out infowars.com and the interview with Lindsey Williams, it's chilling. We are all being manipulated. Best wishes to all of you.

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:36PM

I do love Churchill, and I've not only read the six volumes, I own them.

Smerk| 3.4.11 @ 7:17PM

Me to. Chears!

Hedgy| 3.3.11 @ 5:40PM

There are some real nutters out there!

Smerk| 3.3.11 @ 6:44PM

I don't mind being called a nut. Study history, and look at the signs Hedgy. History repeats itself as each generation forgets the past. WW II is a fact. WW III can happen if we are sleeping. WAKE UP PEOPLE, please. It looks like the late 1930's to me right now.

Hedgy| 3.4.11 @ 11:45AM

sorry not convinced.....come the hour cometh the man....Ronald Regan comes to mind....but not Mrs Palin....
The comment below makes more sense to me, Blair (who Bush described as no truer friend on the US), and Brown, have progressively destoyed the UK...add a large dolop of the EU and its political correctness and insatiable need for money and we have had a miserable time over the last decade or so in the UK. I suspect that Cameron (towing along the sea anchor that is Liberal Nick Clegg) will not be a success but it is a little early to judge yet. I hope my fears are wrong but hey!

Smerk| 3.4.11 @ 7:19PM

It's ok to disagree, it's nice to have some intelligent diolog.
PS Buy food! LOL

Winston| 3.4.11 @ 4:33AM

Uncle Tony Blair and Gordon Clown killed the UK with socialism poison and Dave Cameron is now overseeing the funeral...

Occam's Tool| 3.4.11 @ 5:36PM

Overseeing the funeral while wearing a large red nose, a wig, blush, and oversized shoes....

Creative Recreation | 8.11.11 @ 2:28AM

is good

العاب بنات | 4.11.12 @ 6:12PM

Queen Elizabeth I oversaw the beginning of the British Empire, Queen Elizabeth II is overseeing its destruction. Nice symmetry for the leftist fascist progs.

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