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Another Perspective

Will the Middle East Go MAD?

By on 2.4.11 @ 6:10AM

As Egypt prepares us for a New Middle East, thank goodness for nuclear weapons and mutually assured destruction. But then there’s Iran.

In Jules Verne’s brilliant Journey from the Earth to the Moon, a group of old artillery officers meet after the Civil War to try to figure out what to do with their now outmoded skills. “There was hardly a full set of arms and legs left among them,” writes Verne, but the romance of ballistics has not deserted them.

And so they settle on the idea of building a cannon big enough to fire a capsule to the moon. As a measure of how prescient Verne could be, he chose the east coast of Florida as the blast-off site, within a stone’s throw of Cape Canaveral. You achieve the shortest arc to the moon there. Most memorable in the book’s wonders, however, is this short line: “In their quietest moments, they all dreamed of building a weapon so big and terrifying that no one would ever dare use it — and wars would at last come to an end.”

Verne wrote all this in 1870. Radioactivity wasn’t discovered until 1895 and it took another 50 years to fashion this energy into a bomb. But he was right.

Although “peace activists” are always talking about “ridding the world of nuclear weapons,” the fact is those weapons have kept the peace for 60 years. The Cold War was undoubtedly the longest standoff in history where two sides went toe-to-toe, fingers on the trigger, but nobody ever fired the first shot. The reason was transparent — both sides knew the result would be world catastrophe. The people lamenting the possibility of “nuclear winter” were right. They just didn’t see the point. The vision of total destruction was what kept everyone’s worst impulses at bay.

Now we’re about to see a rerun of this whole scenario in the Middle East.

Any student of history can tell you where events in Egypt are headed. The French Revolution set the historical prototype and, with only a few exceptions, it’s been the same ever since. A country under authoritarian rule develops a middle class. This articulate, legal-minded group agitates against the arbitrary rule until it finally overthrows the ancien régime in the name of representative government. However, the “revolution” quickly runs into two problems: 1) the overwhelming mass of people who don’t care much about democracy but simply want “peace, bread and land,” as Lenin expressed it, and/or 2) a highly organized illiberal party of fanatics ready to seize power in the name of some utopian scheme. Often the two mesh. The result is a Committee on Public Safety or Lenin’s Bolsheviks or the Ayatollah Khomeini’s Islamic Revolution. The only exception to this pattern was the great American Revolution, where George Washington, Ben Franklin, James Madison, and the Founding Fathers were able to keep control of the process and wisely shepherded us into the truly representative system we still have today — bless their hearts forever.

It isn’t going to happen in the Middle East. During the Iraq War, President George W. Bush was heard to lament, “Where are the George Washingtons, the Thomas Jeffersons, the John Adamses?” There are none. You need an enlightened cultural tradition built over centuries plus a population steeped in “republican virtue” to achieve such a thing. Blessedly, we had it in the 18th century. Today the whole idea has spread far enough to the boundaries of Western culture so that when Eastern Europe freed itself from Communism, most countries were able to make the transition to a reasonable stable representative system as well

In Egypt and the Islamic world, however, there is no such tradition. Instead, you have the Koran and Sharia, which is basically a 7th century Bedouin ethos imposed on a society with cell phones. Bedouins were always big on conquest. Studies have shown them to be much more violent than settled agricultural communities — and in fact, “Raids are our agriculture” is an Arab proverb. Islam is also the only major culture that sanctions polygamy, which is a system that produces a surplus population of unattached, unsatisfied men. In Thursday’s New York Times, Anthony Shadid reported the grievances of protesting mobs to be “the hopelessness, the humiliations at the hands of the police and the outrage of having too little money to marry.” The reason men need money to marry is because of the “bride price,” an institution of polygamous cultures where the shortage of women allowed families to charge prospective grooms to marry their daughters. All this pent-up male anger has to be channeled someplace and the best solution is to point it outward, toward other cultures. Seventy-two virgins await you. Just pull this detonator when you get into the market square. Is it so difficult to understand why Islam at war with every society on its borders?

SO DON’T EXPECT anything good to come out of Egypt’s “Revolution.” Mohamed ElBaradei may be able to keep things under control for a few weeks but sooner or later he will prove too moderate and one of two other candidates will emerge — either a Napoleonic military figure, à la Gamal Abdel-Nasser, or a Lenin-style party infiltrating the power centers of society — i.e., the Muslim Brotherhood. Once united in this fashion, the new Egyptian leaders, be they secular or sacred, will follow the Napoleonic tradition and turn their turmoil outward. “Let’s stop fighting amongst ourselves and go conquer Europe,” Napoleon told the French Revolution. In Egypt and whatever other countries fall to the protest now sweeping the region, the cry will be “Let’s stop fighting among ourselves and go conquer Israel.”

Within a year, Israel will probably be facing a Hezbollah-led government in Lebanon, a revolutionary Egypt ready to scrap the legacy of Anwar Sadat (it was the Brotherhood, after all, that assassinated him), and possibly newly radicalized regimes in Syria and Jordan. The repeat of the 1967 and 1973 invasions would be a foregone conclusion, except for one thing — Israel now has nuclear weapons. Nobody knows exactly how many but estimates it may be as many as 200 in Israel’s arsenal — certainly enough not to have to worry about a few misfires. They wouldn’t have to be aimed at cities. Blowing up the Aswan Dam would essentially wipe the Egyptian economy off the map.

The Egyptians are not stupid. They would realize they have to restrain themselves, even if they indulged in a lot of sword waving or talked about obtaining their own nuclear weapons. (The Russians are building four new reactors for them, which makes this a not-remote possibility.) The same thing would hold true in Lebanon, Syria, or a revanchist Jordan. Lobbing shells across the border could become common and there might be subversive efforts in Gaza and on the West Bank. But even a nuclear-armed Egypt or Saudi Arabia would be unlikely to risk an all-out attack as in 1967 and 1973. The possibilities of nuclear war make the stakes too high. And so a Cold War-like standoff would prevail.

UNFORTUNATELY, THERE’S ONE MORE wild card in the deck — Iran. As we are all learning, there are two main sects of Islam, the Sunni and the Shi’ia. The Sunni are mostly Arab (Egypt is 90 percent Sunni) and take pride that they are the “Sons of the Prophet.” (That’s why nearly half of them are named “Mohammed.”) They are wedded to the Islamic idea of world conquest and can produce legions of suicide bombers, but they are not a suicidal culture. The same cannot be said of the Shi’ia, whose center of gravity is in Iran. The Shi’ia, as the saying goes, have “martyrdom in their blood.” Given their history, the world cannot be completely confident that Iran would not be willing to start a nuclear war.

Do you know the story of Hussein, the patron saint of the Shi’ia sect? Here’s what happened. In 680 A.D., Muawiya I, the first Caliph of Baghdad, died and tried to pass his title on to his son, Yazid. Sitting in Mecca, Hussein, the only living grandson of the Prophet, objected on the grounds that Mohammed had not intended his rule to be hereditary (even though Hussein himself was asserting hereditary authority). In order to dispute Yazid’s claim, Hussein left Mecca and marched toward Baghdad to do battle. He had with him 75 warriors plus some women and children. Yazid met him at Karbala, 60 miles southwest of Baghdad, with an army of 5,000.

Squaring off against each other, the two sides negotiated and Yazid offered terms of surrender. Hussein meditated for a week before deciding that, yes, even though outnumbered 50-to-1, he would do battle with Yazid. Needless to say, he and his followers were slaughtered and his head ended up on a pole. Shi’ia Muslims commemorate this defeat every year during the month of Muharram by marching in huge processions, flagellating themselves and wailing, “Hussein, why were we not with you at Karbala?”

Any culture that worships martyrdom in such a fashion would probably have no trouble starting a nuclear war, even it meant leaving its own country a smoldering ruin. All those virgins will still be waiting in heaven.

The confrontation between Israel and its newly radicalized neighbors, then, will probably produce a Cold War-type standoff held in place by Israel’s nuclear arsenal. The world will have to learn to live with that. What we cannot live with is an Iran that has nuclear weapons. It will be up to the rest of the world to make sure it doesn’t happen.

About the Author

William Tucker is news editor for RealClearEnergy.org.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (222) |

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 7:53AM

Mr. Tucker,
I'm sorely afraid that the bus has left the station.
Much of the world wouldn't mind Iran having nukes, (Russia or China?).

Russia has a very long border with Islamic countries/tribes. Those tribes can be supported by Iran...
If Iran brings Israeli nukes down on its own head, presto...the tribes become impotent and Russia has a secure border.
Aswan dam?
Oh yes.
I discussed it in a comment yesterday.

Alan Brooks| 2.4.11 @ 8:22AM

You're a wingnut from Texas.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 8:50AM

Alan,
coming from you, that is a deep, deep compliment.
Thank you. :~)

The Big E| 2.4.11 @ 8:53AM

Wow, Alan. It truly takes a staggering intellect to come up with a response like that. You had to think about that one for what, 2, 3 seconds? I hope you didn't sprain your lest remaining brain cell. After all, an insult is so much more convincing then, say, a reasoned cogent argument explaining why you disagree with the Old Texican's position.

Alan Brooks| 2.4.11 @ 9:00AM

"You had to think about that one for what, 2, 3 seconds?"

Why more time than that?; there are other blogs to blog at, Big E, other articles at AS to read.
Ken is similar to Dr. Strangelove-or Jack D. Ripper.
If Ken were POTUS he might blow up the world.

Alan Brooks| 2.4.11 @ 9:04AM

... let's leave it at this: maybe everything you and Ken write about me is correct, but it doesn't mean Ken is any better than I say he is.

Bob K.| 2.4.11 @ 9:59AM

Alan,
Be glad he gave you 2 0r 3 seconds! You aren't worth much more.

Alan Brooks| 2.4.11 @ 11:56AM

True enough, even a hero-pilot who, say,
saves passengers by diving into the Hudson only gets his 15 minutes of fame, while a celebrity gets much more than that.
If I'm only worth 2 - 3 seconds, and a hero is worth 15 minutes, but a celebrity is 'worth' much more (less) than a hero, then 2 or 3 seconds isn't so very bad after all.
Shall I reiterate or do you get it?

Anita| 2.4.11 @ 12:41PM

ok kiddies, enough. There is way too much to worry about in this article to play at Iran and US.

Tim the Enchanter| 2.4.11 @ 4:47PM

Alan: hate to say this, but you're still a wanker. Please learn to deal with it better than you have.

Patrick| 2.4.11 @ 1:32PM

Okay Alan, time for your thorazine...

The Big E| 2.4.11 @ 2:19PM

Alan, my point is this - if disagree with something someone says, that's fine. People disagree. If we all agreed on everything we'd all be bored as hell. But when you disagree, instead of resorting to straight ad hominem, please try to EXPLAIN yourself. There are others who post frequently on this site from the left whose comments are well thought out and frequently make myself and other think. The things they say shows that our comments make them think as well. That's what the FREE EXCHANGE OF IDEAS IS ABOUT.

So, next time, try to defend your positions with some analytical reasoning backed up with objective facts which you believe to be relevant and supportive of your argument. If you find you can't do those thing, that you can only respond with insults and anger, then maybe you should to reconsider what you believe.

Alan Brooks| 2.5.11 @ 11:46PM

"There are others who post frequently on this site from the left whose comments are well thought out and frequently make myself and other think."

But if leftists are crypto-commie statists who helped elect the Uppity from Kenya who will allow Iran to start Armageddon, how can they have anything to say? if you want me to be more cogent then be more cogent in explaining exactly how the Evil One in the WH is going to nuke the Mideast, and how we can elect Princess Palin to save us all.

Occam's Tool| 2.4.11 @ 11:39PM

Please name a country that has done something substantial and painful to stop Iran, Alan. Nobody.

Alan Brooks| 2.5.11 @ 11:48PM

Occam,
America only really cares about America- the Mideast is mostly where we obtain petroleum from.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 8:48AM

Alan, I hate to be the one to break this to you but the US gets it's oil from Mexico, Central America and Canada. Seventy percent of the gasoline that we use is refined in Mexico. The EU and China use Saudi oil. Saudi Arabia is too far away from the US to make shipping oil practical when there are sources of oil that are closer.

mames| 2.4.11 @ 4:04PM

Heat + sand = glass. We can only hope. The only people the Middle east hates more than us is each other.

Alan Brooks| 2.6.11 @ 6:27PM

I'm Allan Brooks and I demand you pay attention to me and validate my relevance. My mom says I'm the smartest most important person in the world.
I bet your mom didn't knit you pajamas with feet in them or let you stay in her basement rent free.

Ilana Leeds | 2.7.11 @ 12:54AM

B'H
With comments like that, one now knows why Mom keeps him in the basement.

Speedbump| 2.4.11 @ 8:03AM

That was perhaps the most cogent analysis of this situation I've seen yet.

I continue to wait for all the "peaceful Muslims" to stand up and condemn the radical Islamist element. That they continue to not do so indicates to me they are either quietly on the side of the radicals, or they fear the radicals will take over western society and they do not want to be on record of being on the wrong side of that one.

Harry the Horrible| 2.4.11 @ 9:57AM

It happens occasionally.
There were some Egyptian Muslims who offered themselves as "human shields" for Coptic Christians. There have been a few Fatwahs against terrorists and some Imam or another announced that latest Russian homicide bomber "will go to Hell." (I'm not sure if he said this in Arabic, so it might not be binding.)
However, lacking the passions, conviction, and firepower of the "Radicals," "moderate" Moslems don't count for much. In fact, intentionally or otherwise, they actually provide cover and money to the "Radicals" and aid them with things like Lawfare.

mames| 2.4.11 @ 4:09PM

How does one read the Qumran and find it moderate? Islam was born of a militaristic Mohammed, a home grown fanatic.

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 1:34AM

There is a passage in the Hadith, a book of quotes attributed to Mohammad, "When you are weak, negotiate. When you are strong, dictate."

ShortNSweet| 2.7.11 @ 9:52AM

Qumran is a Kibbutz on the Dead Sea where the Dead Sea Scrolls were found.

Dave| 2.4.11 @ 12:09PM

I too await the condemnation from the Islamic world of the nut cases that are giving the rest of us so much pain, and I fear that I wait in vain.

I also am weary of being told that the word "Islam" in itself means "peace" - which it surely does - when at my father's knee I learned that actions speak louder than words. Burned indelibly in my mind are, not condemnation of the slaughter of innocents, but the celebrations in the streets 10 years ago when the air planes stuck home.

I suspect you are close to the mark when you suggest that fear is a determining factor in this lack of reasonable response to terrorism. One does not dare to publicly say anything negative towards Islam or Mohammed for fear that ones overly sensitive and easily excitable neighbor will leave an unfriendly greeting on your doorstep.

Tim the Enchanter| 2.4.11 @ 4:50PM

Dave: sorry, but the word "Islam" means "submission", not "peace".

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 1:38AM

Not to be a jerk or anything but if I'm not mistaken, I believe that the Arabic word "Islam" means "recite." One of the first major fallings out between the four major factions of Islam was the recording of the Koran on paper. Prior to the recording of the Koran the suras were memorized and handed down, father to son. The best way to remember the suras was to constantly recite these suras.

After the writing of the Koran was a done deal then the fight over who's version of the Koran was the correct version.

Dave| 2.5.11 @ 3:39PM

"Koran" means recite.

One of the roots to "Islam" is "salam (sp?)" which means "peace" and is part of standard greeting between Arabic Muslims.

Alan Brooks| 2.5.11 @ 11:50PM

...and submit. An Islamic submits to Allah through Mohammed.

Deborah D | 2.4.11 @ 4:34PM

I too await "peaceful Muslims." I'm hopeful that the same access to cell phones and Internet that brought the young people into the streets will also be used to enlighten them about philosophies and ideas other than what has been force-fed to them over the years. I have no illusions that this will happen quickly, but when young people get excited about new ideas, they do tend to spread quickly.

As far as Mr. Tucker's article -- simply excellent. I've not seen any analysis in the many I've read that have this take. Brilliant, sir!

Mr. LeMans| 2.4.11 @ 4:38PM

re: I continue to wait for all the "peaceful Muslims" to stand up and condemn the radical Islamist element. That they continue to not do so indicates to me they are either quietly on the side of the radicals, or they fear the radicals will take over western society and they do not want to be on record of being on the wrong side of that one.
=========================

You are, of course, exactly right. Let me ask you, did the Allies fight against "radical" Nazis? Extremist Germans? Hmmm? No, if you were German, you were dead. How about "radical" Imperial Japanese? No? Extremist Japanese? No? If you were Japanese, you were a Jap and you were to be killed.

We have to stop giving the so-called "moderate" Muslims so much credit. This nonsense will end only when 100s of thousands or millions of muslims are burnt to a crisp. Only then will they cry uncle and give it up.

Who will stop us? China? Russia? I think not.
Plenty of oil to to around for the three of us.....

Mr. LeMans

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 6:02PM

5 million jews who are camped out in the middle east think they can continue to push americans to kill and die in muslim countries for them. we have no common values with israel a country whos chief spiritual leader rabbi yosef states "non jews were made to serve jews and are no better than cattle" every year jews burn new testaments in religious ceromonies (google it) thats how much they hate christians,frankly i hope the 70 million newly free edgyptians make them squeal like a pig for all the killings of women and children in palestine,lebanon,ect

Occam's Tool| 2.4.11 @ 11:41PM

There is no mainstream rabbi who believes that non-Jews are no better than cattle, Mortimer. That argument is as dead in the water as your name.

jolizoom| 2.5.11 @ 4:30PM

OT, that was a very nice turn of phrase. And of the table.

martin j smith| 2.4.11 @ 8:03AM

Right now ( i am guessing of course ) in Israel security circles many wheels are spinning and fast. The concern are potential outcomes not only in Egypt but as we well know the region. Intelligence is being gathered on the ground in these various nations Egypt,Syria,Jordan.Yemen and even Iran. as well as Lebenon of course.
Included also is intelligence concerning US ( read Obama's intentions ) policy. In the end it will b eIsrael ( read Jewish ) survival that will be the bottom line here.
While previous Presidents have been very foolish in going along with the "Peace Process " this administration of Obama "s that will be viewed as TOTALLY UNRELIABLE. This will be a factor is Israel's national security thinking I have no doubt.

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 1:41AM

The kings of the world gathered together...

Mike D.| 2.4.11 @ 8:06AM

The article is correct. The cold war standoff was indeed the result of nuclear weapons and there were enough rational minds on both sides to know when to stand down when things got hot. Isreal has a sizable armory of nuclear weapons and Sadat knew that when he invaded the Suez and Sinai peninsula in the 73 war and limited his objectives and NOT directly threatening Isreal's own national territory. Now we have the nutjob Islamic Fascists thrown into the mix. Fanatic religionists are not know for their rational thought processes and the possession of nuclear weapons and the heavenly reward for their use is now a real and stark reality. The Isreali's philosophy about the use of Nukes is simple. If they believe that the nation of Isreal is in danger of falling, they WILL use their arsenal on every strategic target in the region. Ben Gurion's first priority after the creation of the Isreali state was the aquisition of a nuclear program so as to "never allow what happened in Germany to ever happen again to Jews". Its called the Masada doctrine, i.e. fight to the death. I have no doubt they mean it. If Egypt falls and Isreal is surrounded, the road to Armegeddon potentially took a big step closer. Nuclear weapons in the hands of religious lunatics is a nightmare scenario that should scare the hell out of anybody. For those with an historic interest in Isreal's nuclear program get a copy of the book "The bomb in the Basement"

Alan Brooks| 2.4.11 @ 12:00PM

You might be right on this. One tries to be optimistic, yet if optimism is revealed later to be baseless optimism, then it is in actuality gullibility rather than optimism.
If megadeath occurs in the Mideast will we be surprised? no.

Mike D.| 2.4.11 @ 1:09PM

Its not just megadeath in the middleast. This would spread potentially worldwide. If the Islamist lunatics somehow think they are going to drive Isreali's into the sea and rid them out of the middleast and live happily everafter, they are living in some kind of dillusional fantasy mindset.
If Isreal is destroyed, the best scenario is a middle east whose population is decimated by millions, a region virtually unlivable due to radiation effects, every arab target whether religious or military or population centered wiped off the face of the earth. If they think thats winning, then they are more dangerious than anything the world has yet dealt with. The whole planet would be thrown into an oilless economic disaster of mega levels.
The fact is, either Isreal lives or the middle east ceases to exist. Thats the reality, period.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 4:10PM

Mike D.
Thank you for your forward thinking.

In my mind it is good and evil in the seemingly endless confrontation.
Some of our yahoos here just can't see around their cowardice.

Mike D.| 2.4.11 @ 7:06PM

Ken, I totally agree, and as usual good vs. evil takes untold amounts of blood to settle the issue. Its a shame to see so many with their heads up their asses that are going to wake up some day in a brave new world where wits and preparedness instead of the it can't happen here appeasement rhetoric and some kind of ignorant don't worry be happy mentality won't work anymore. Some people refuse to accept whats happening around them until its shoved up their asses. So many of these despots are actually saying what they intend to do right out in the open and still so many just don't want to listen or hear it or believe it. Things are coming that aren't going to go away.

BackToBasics| 2.5.11 @ 3:21AM

It's good to be prepared. Yet these same appeasers will steal and kill if they are able to from those who are more informed and are more prepared when the time of great testing arrives.

Mike D.| 2.5.11 @ 8:39AM

Yes, the mob of the unprepared and formally unconcerned ignorants will indeed stampede.
The thread of civilization is a very thin one. It takes very little for the herd to stampede and bring things into chaos.

Deborah D | 2.4.11 @ 4:47PM

Mike D. -- thanks for your thoughts. Many don't think far enough down the road. I include myself in that group. I do have vision, but sometimes I must turn it off for the fear it brings. But, we must face all of the awful possibilities because this is our future (or lack thereof). And, we don't want this terrible future for our children. If our country can make it to 2012 -- is there someone in our country strong enough to face the situation our world can (and probably will) be in then? I don't think our current leader has the fortitude or the vision to see past his political ambitions. That alone is frightening.

Mike D.| 2.4.11 @ 7:27PM

Deb,
Many things can change the future, its never set in stone. But the fact remains, Isreal and the jews will never allow themselves to be decimated again by any country or foreign government as they where during WW2. They have the megatonnage to back that up. As far as any leader who could stand down this situation, who knows. Bible scholars always predicted that when this crisis reaches a critical point the Anti-christ would emerge and initiate a false peace and be the one with all the answers and solutions. The present leader in the white house may be actually enabling fanatical muslims to take over the government of Egypt. Whether prophecy is fulfilled or not, and whatever your faith is, mixing of nuclear weapons with religious Muslim fanatics who think they have a mandate from God to use them on anybody is a dangerous escalation. If your a person of faith, pray, prepare, and expand your knowledge and understand what could happen and how fast it can happen. Fear serves nobody anything.

putra | 2.4.11 @ 8:29AM

Mr Tucker,
I think there will always be Mad in the Middle East, because the characteristic of Islam is to bring the sword to demand of justice.

They believe that the spirit of Jihad, whether Sunni or Shi'ia all claim descent or relatives prophet, so they are willing to die to defend their beliefs.

Louis Jenkins| 2.4.11 @ 9:03AM

Can't remember, but yesterday someone said Israel dropped leaflets on the Aswan dam. That would pretty well take care of Eygpt. Israel is surrounded by hounds from hell, all ready to jump. It's going to get interesting. But another problem is the USA. We too will soon be surrounded by the same, or surrounded with Muslim sympatizers, and have a substantial number of Muslims within our borders. Whether we like of not, we will have to get "Medival" if we are to survive. Remember, as Gen. Patton said, make the "sobs die for their country."

John| 2.4.11 @ 9:32AM

Dropping nuclear bombs on eygpt- threatening a nuclear holocaust against the people of ME, even by the standard of racism on this site that is utterly vile. This is another reason why America needs to be forced out of ME.Isreal needs to stop ethnically cleansing Palestinians both Muslim and christains and allow the 6 million palestinian refugees to return home. This is only way to assure its suvivial. USA & isreal have ethnicallycleansed, murded, occupied 10s millions of Arabs- this has not brought stability. I have no doubt that the final solution spouted on this board against the people of Me is not far off. But you will not succeed .
a future based on respect, human rights, democracy, freedom is the way forward . And god willing America can not stop that happening.
There are nuclear weapons in the hand of religious fanatics :Christian & Jewish Zionist . a rascist ideology to the core. Read history and the crimes they have committed . its amazing how you dredge out fairy tales everyday from thousands of years ago to justify vile rascism against Muslims but the infinatley murderous ways of your country today yesterday plus a few centuries earlier is conveniently forgotten . And Anway on the whole good american people that do not share your vile rascist rants . May god protect ME from your fascism .

ds80| 2.4.11 @ 10:27AM

Anti-Semite John, how many heads have Jews chopped off? You are a pea-brain: it was the threat of nuclear holocaust that kep the Cold War cold.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 5:32PM

jews bombed buses slaughtered unarmed women and children ect in their terror campaign 1948 to drive out palestinians google "irgun jew terrorists" they even killed british soldiers and tried to blame muslims but were caught and hung. google "lavon affair" jews and arabs both used terrorism. israel has a history of bombings and terror acts done to blame muslims in false flag attacks. supporting israel caused 9-11......9-11 commission report

irish19| 2.4.11 @ 8:01PM

I was waiting for that one. Israel caused 9/11. Typical load of libtard anti-semite material that one gets from the south end of a north bound male bovine.
Why don't you and John take your idiot selves back to Stormfront? Or just shut up. The grown-ups are trying to have a serious discussion.

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 1:09PM

your arguing with the 9-11 connissin report???? priceless.

Jeamar37| 2.4.11 @ 11:07PM

Mortimer don 't you understand intelligent, serious people are ignoring you intentionally?

Kamikazi| 2.4.11 @ 10:51AM

Whu don't you and Alan go out back and play with yourselves there, and leave the adults alone?

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 10:53AM

Hey John, (actually muhhamed)

We certainly understand where you are coming from. You are merly a "holy-lying" Muslim.

Sorry, your words mean nothing except to remind us just how twisted and sick the cult of Islam truly is.
We don't hate you individual Muslims. Honestly we do not. We are merely deeply saddened by your slavery to .....slavery.
Many of us earnestly pray that many of you come alive via the Holy Spirit of the Living God.

Please repent and turn from your wicked ways. The Living God does not want or need you to "submit", but rather join into fellowship with Him as a beloved son.

Maddox| 2.4.11 @ 12:52PM

One of your best sir.
What a wonderful (peaceful) world it would be.

John| 2.4.11 @ 2:17PM

you want to nuke Egypt - but I'm the extremist .
strange view of extremism. You guys base on all your analysis on fairy tales. An entire sit based on fairy tales . Wakey wakey. The arab revolution for freedom has begun. No more stealing oil. No more occupation. you need to stop wasting time writing and more time digging for oil. thats change I van believe in.

Stephanie| 2.4.11 @ 2:04PM

"a future based on respect, human rights, democracy, freedom is the way forward . And god willing America can not stop that happening."

WTF? Maybe you need to go have a talk with the Muslim Brotherhood. And your 2nd grade teacher to bone up on your spelling
. You are truely twisted.

Occam's Tool| 2.4.11 @ 11:42PM

Ethnic cleansing: that's why the population and economy of the West Bank are growing!

George True| 2.5.11 @ 9:47PM

Mr John: You sir, have made up an entire alternate history of the modern state of Israel. The opnly problem is, none of it is the ACTUAL history of the region.

So far none of the posts here have advocated nuking Egypt or any other middle east country. Rather, they are speculating what might happen if Iran and/or any of the arab countries launched a nuclear strike against Israel.

FYI, the land where Israel is located has been the ancestral homeland of the Jews for ALL of recorded history, roughly 6000 years.

YOU are the one who sounds like a fascist here.

Bob K.| 2.4.11 @ 9:57AM

The American "Revolution" wasnt a revolution. It was a Rebellion.

Old Soldier| 2.4.11 @ 10:40AM

It was a Rebellion with a counter-revolution a few years later.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 10:57AM

Bob K.
No, it was not a "rebellion"...because we won!

Our founders also "revolutionized" the world with the Preamble to the Declaration of Independence.

Paul| 2.4.11 @ 3:34PM

Ken:

I believe that Bob was pointing out that the other historical instances cited involved the complete destruction of the existing states, the creation of new states, and the wholesale, coercive transformation of the societies themselves. Since 1789, this is what most have meant by "revolution."

Before that, political "revolution" had the sense of modern "restoration," changed intended to return to some form of a morally superior prior order, as in England's "Glorious Revolution."

It is the misfortune of Western historiography that the American Revolution should have occurred in a period during which the sense of "revolution" was shifting rapidly.

NaturalBorn Texican| 2.4.11 @ 11:13AM

Ken you make me even prouder to be a Texican!!!

JimH| 2.4.11 @ 11:29AM

If what you describe is worship of martyrdom, what do you call the Alamo?

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 12:57PM

JimH
Sir, the battle of the Alamo was a rear-guard action, keeping the Mexican army tied down for thirteen days while Sam Houston dragged together a bunch of farmers and forced Santa Anna to extend his supply lines an extra two hundred miles.

My grampies, and umpty uncles and cousins were part of that army of farmers that whipped the Mexicans' arses and won our liberty.
.....Uh
A little different concept than "Muslim martyrs" blowing up women and children....on purpose.

JimH| 2.4.11 @ 1:29PM

The event being commemorated did not involve blowing up women and children. I was facetiously expressing the point that many cultures celebrate and honor brave defeats against impossible odds in their history. I was not trying to denigrate Texas.

Patrick| 2.4.11 @ 1:40PM

Yet for some reason, Texans don't gather about the Alamo every year with knives in their hands, slashing their faces and the faces of their children.

Occam's Tool| 2.4.11 @ 11:43PM

Correct, Patrick. Cultural relativism is tiring. The West is Best.

A. Murray Kahn| 2.5.11 @ 8:14AM

I wish there was a better word than martyr for suicidal homicide. It's one thing to be bundled off to the lions in a state of passive and prayerful resistance and quite another to strap on a load of cemtex and head out for the pizza parlor. The word shows stretch marks. The former is a true victim, the latter is a kamikaze. Also, a small group surrounded by an enemy is not the same thing as a small group suicidally attacking a much larger enemy. I'm just saying...

jolizoom| 2.5.11 @ 4:46PM

How about "suicidal homicide"?

Paul| 2.4.11 @ 3:39PM

More to the point, what about the example of Jesus Christ, another religious figure believed by his followers to have willingly offered himself for certain death at the hands of the powerful for the sake of the truth? While the Christian martyrs who followed him gave us this sense of the Greek word "witness," have large Christian societies generally proven similarly willing to incur their own certain destruction for solely moral reasons? If not, is it not too facile to assume that Shi'a Iran will do so?

jolizoom| 2.5.11 @ 4:51PM

Ever hear of Jim Elliot and Nate Saint? Not "large Christian societies", but certainly martyrs for the sake of the gospel, among many, many others who refused to refute their faith for the sake of their life.

martin j smith| 2.4.11 @ 11:32AM

I think that John or Mohammed or George Soros or whoever does not deserve an answer other than being told that his bigotry and anti-semitism are unwelcome--Also if he does not like living in a Democratic Republic to get out

John| 2.4.11 @ 5:04PM

I want everybody Muslim jews christains to live happily together before Zionism came on the scene. There is absolutely no room for Zionist in ME. why. Because they ethnically remove people from their land.Kill people without right. You keep supporting Mubarak &co;. Lets see how far you get.

George True| 2.5.11 @ 9:54PM

Not true, sir. There are many israeli citizens who are ethnic arabs and whose religion is Islam. They have the same rights as jewish Israelis. The only people Israel kills are those who wage terrorism against Israel. Any country has a right to kill such as those. You do not know your history, and so far nothing you have said has any basis in fact or in truth.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 7:37AM

Amen George, speak the truth.

Richard Baker| 2.4.11 @ 11:56AM

I believe the day is fast approaching, unfortunately, when a "dirty" bomb will be detonated within a large US city with the resulting carnage. We as a people, at least half of us, seem to have lost the fighting spirit of which TR spoke and our enemies have not. Our enemies must be laughing their butts off watching us self-destruct.

Mike D.| 2.4.11 @ 2:09PM

You better hope its just a dirty bomb and not something with a multi-kiloton punch, because if that happens(and many think its just a matter of time) the world we know will cease to exist. There is a storm coming to this nation and this world. The timeline is open to question, but its coming. There is a pre-WW2 feel to the situation now developing.

Paul| 2.4.11 @ 3:44PM

How will the explosion of a multi-kiloton fission weapon in an American city cause the world to cease to exist? Certainly it would cause terrible loss of life, great damage to property, and widespread panic. The results would probably resemble an intensified version of the aftermath of the September 11th attacks. Other than the rapid destruction of a couple of hostile minor states and the subsequent occupations of their territories, the attacks in themselves can hardly be said to have irrevocably transformed the world.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 4:17PM

Paul,
I struggle to unwind your declarative sentences.
Each of them leaves me hanging waiting for the conclusion...
So far, I have not grasped your logic above.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 4:36PM

Paul, ta daaa!
I think I finally connected your dots. You seem to be saying "no big deal".
What Mike D. was saying is the "world we know will cease to exist".
I agree.
Folks like you will be siitting on your duff wondering why everything has changed, and I am afraid you will not have prepared, either with supplies, or mentally, and you are toast.

Besides that, You sorta' make me mad writing off several hundred thousand Americans as no "big deal".

Paul| 2.4.11 @ 9:33PM

Ken:

I am not sure how you interpret the sentences "Certainly it would cause terrible loss of life, great damage to property, and widespread panic. The results would probably resemble an intensified version of the aftermath of the September 11th attacks," as the equivalent of your paraphrase, "no big deal."

As an Army officer with seventeen years of service, I can assure you that I have not been "sitting on my duff" since September 11th. Actually, I have been directly involved in trying to solve many of the problems which so evidently concern you, and to prevent the events which you so wish to avoid.

You may choose to believe Mike D's words or my own; the major difference is that he seems to assert that such an atrocity would inevitably cause the collapse of American society. I assert that this is based upon an overestimation of the effects of a nuclear detonation and the duration of those effects, both of which I have studied.

BackToBasics| 2.5.11 @ 3:34AM

If there were only one detonation we'd survive, I think and hope.

One detonation "might" just wake us up to the dagers we face, but then again 9-11 didn't seem to. Arguably, 9-11 has made us bow even lower to Moslems.

If there were more than 3, I have my doubts that we'd survive as the America we know. I sometimes think the only reason whywe have not been attacked since 9-11 on a large scale is because the terrorists are preparing something really big in multiple palces and this takes time.

BackToBasics| 2.5.11 @ 3:35AM

typo - dangers we face

Mike D.| 2.5.11 @ 9:04AM

Paul,
Not in big disagreement with you. But I submit you underestimate the effects of just how fragile this whole civilization at present is and how much panic would ensue. a few decades ago, I would say that we would be much more resilient to a devastating attack of this sort. Presently, this country is soft physically and mentally. The simple measure of cell phone loss would panic this bunch into a lather. The population as of now is woefully unprepared and for the most part ignorant of even the basics of self survival. Yes, the country would survive. It would change forever. The economic devastation would take this already sickly economy to the floor. I take into account the fact that this country is reliant on the whims of an oil supply it can't control and what the effects of major counterstrikes would be against an area already prone to islamic overthrow of oil states.

Paul| 2.4.11 @ 4:40PM

Ken:

Mike D. had asserted that if "something with a multi-kiloton punch" were to be "detonated within a large US city" then "the world we know will cease to exist."

In my reply, I ask him to explain the chain of events which starts with such a detonation and ends with the world's collapse. I then offer a contrary hypothesis: the aftermath of such a detonation would be like the aftermath of September 11th, only more so. The world has not truly changed dramatically in the wake of that event, just the way that we talk about it.

Mike D.| 2.4.11 @ 6:51PM

First off the economy would collapse, lock stock and barrell. Second, major panic would insue as people scramble for food, fuel, and supplies. You have a fallout issue or issues in the target areas. major cities would have exoduses as people scramble to leave as they think their city may be the next target(I'm sure the culprits would threaten that whether they could or not). marshall law would be declared almost immediately to restore order. If you think a 15 kiloton nuclear warhead detonated in a large US city has the same effect as a couple of planes crashing into buildings on the mindset of people then there is not much I can do for you as far as a comparison is concerned. If a 10 to 20 KT nuke was detonated in NYC instead of a pair of planes at the WTC, you have several hundred thousand(not 3,000) or more in dead in seconds with many more critically injured with radiation sickness and burns and severe injuries. The Burn units at ALL the major hospitals of the US could not handle the burn victims this type of weapon would inflict on any survivors if just one is detonated(US DofD estimates) Then you have the sticky problem of who to retaliate against and with what. All this while a radioactive fallout cloud does more damage to those who no nothing about what to do.
Nobody is going to charge into the devastated area to help any survivors due to excessive radiation and fires. This would be 911 multiplied by 100's of times over. Portions of the power grid would be taken out in the general area. need I elaborate more?

Paul| 2.4.11 @ 9:39PM

Mike:

Thank you for your explanation. Many of the effects that you describe are correct, and many of the consequences are likely, while others are possible. We seem to be in accord that, as I stated above, the result would be "terrible loss of life, great damage to property, and widespread panic."

For all that this would be horrible, I must ask: would it actually cause the collapse of American society? The geographical area devastated by a 15- to 20-kiloton warhead is, in absolute terms, not that large. The entire country would be affected by panic and the ensuing disorder, true. But how long would these effects last? How severe would they be? Would they be worse than the effects of, say, the First World War on France or Germany?

Mike D.| 2.5.11 @ 8:14AM

Paul,

No but it would change the US as we know it. Internal security would amount to a police state for the foreseeable future. A counter strike against middle east targets especially population centers would result in tumult in the oil areas furthering a fuel crisis possibly worldwide. This would drive an already sinking economy into a deep depression. The US would survive, but it would not be the US we know from the past. A lot of fundemental things would change forever here.
A multiple attack would amplify everything. Sadly, as one poster stated, maybe it would finally wake people up and acknowledge the world they live in.

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 3:44AM

Who to retaliate against? There was a paper published during the bush administration, W not HW, that in the event of another mass casulity attack on the US that the US military response would be massive. That is military code speak for the 'ol wore out "Cold War" phrase, "City Busting."

Now, this response, supposing that the American political leadership has the reproductive fortitude to actually impliment the plan, in my own humble estimation would probably not be nuclear. If you look carefully and pay strict attention you'll notice that American politicians have been rather free handed of late with the giving away of nukes. Using nukes as a barganing chip with other nations and then dismantling/deactivating these weapon systems. "Why is that" one might ask? It's because nukes are obsolete.

The response to a mass casulty attack on the US would result in a couple MILSATs chucking out eight or ten 400kg titanium rods with a compressed alumina abative heat shield on one end and a Mickey-Mouse GPS guidance package on the other. 400 kg of titanium moving at 14500 miles per hour coming into violent contact with Mecca, Medina or Qum or Terhan or any or leventy-leven other cities occupied by "those people" and the problem is solved. There won't be enough living savages left to bury the dead. So-so blast effect, real good thermal yield and no radioactivity. Big time "Shake-N-Bake an no little Howdie-Doodie little kid saying, "An I hepped."

Remember folks, you heard it here first.

Mike D.| 2.5.11 @ 8:19AM

Don't disagree about much you posted. Problem is that attacks against Islamic population or religious centers results in a cutoff in oil supplies and therefore an economic disaster here as things grind to a trickle. We could and would survive the physical effects of a nuclear detonation. the economic, political, and psychological aftereffects here and worldwide would be staggering.

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 9:00AM

You're close Mike. The folks that we're talking about for the most part live in cities. There is a rural population but nothing much to speak of. Truth be told, without the cities for sustinance the rural populations would be a lot, lot smaller. Zap twenty population centers and Islam in the Middle East would for the most part cease to exist.

Mike D.| 2.5.11 @ 9:11AM

And so would the oil supply pipiline cease to exist.
Zapping population centers with nuclear weapons also cause fallout problems with neighboring countries who are innocent. Devastated areas and fallout patterns would destroy the oil areas not only for us but the rest of the world who make not much like the fact that we are devastating their energy supply. Its the ripple effects that would multiply the initial attack so many times over.

Skippy| 2.5.11 @ 7:05PM

I like the titanium rod thing!
Sounds like a great remedy for this dicey situation.
No pesky radiation, no downwind poison, no Muslims left alive.
We've tried soaking them out; we've tried scrubbing them out.
And we've still got jihad around the collar!
What the heck good are weapons if you don't use them against your sworn enemies?

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 8:57AM

See the above Mike, the US gets it's oil from Mexico, Central America and Canada. The EU and China get their oil from Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is too far away from the US to make shipping oil practical.

BackToBasics| 2.6.11 @ 7:59PM

I doubt Obam would counterstrike at all.

Occam's Tool| 2.4.11 @ 11:45PM

Please read Tom Kratman's Caliphate for the answer, Paul.

Or, to put it another way---Pearl Harbor results ended in the dropping of two nukes on Japan after their country had been firebombed into the stone age. Imagine what we will do to people who use NUKES on us?

BackToBasics| 2.5.11 @ 3:38AM

With another president than Obam, I agree. I do not think he would retaliate even if we were nuked.

Mimi| 2.5.11 @ 4:20PM

If....The IF occurs...Obama would be behind bars..for leaving the "DOOR OPEN" His damage ability..DONE

BackToBasics| 2.6.11 @ 8:03PM

I hope you are right but by the time everything settled it might be too late to retaliate effectively.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 5:25PM

if that happens it will be mossad

Paul in Colorado| 2.4.11 @ 12:21PM

What reason is there to believe the Egyptian military is spoiling for a fight with Israel? Their greatest threat is not across the Suez, but rather close at hand. Unless they want to be some mullah's lap dog, they need to focus on their showdown with the Brotherhood, and no doubt they are. The question is whether their military is as infiltrated with Islamist fifth columnists as Pakistan's.

The Big E| 2.4.11 @ 4:30PM

The Egyptian military may not be spoiling for a fight with Israel, but the Muslim Brotherhood takes over Egypt, those who give the Egyptian military orders will be.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 5:24PM

oh shut up, the muslim brotherhood is not a terrorist organization,its that ALL muslim groups that defy israeli aggression aipac forces congress to deem terrorists. time to get rid of aipac/israel

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:08PM

You don't know your history. The Muslim Brotherhood is the oldest of the terrorist networks, predating the PLO by a good 30 years. They were active during WWII. Their defacto leader was none other than Amin al Husseini, aka the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. He was a good pal and admirer of Adolf Hitler, and in fact adopted Hitler's strategy and methods re: the Jews. The organization he founded has been itching to take over Egypt ever since. Mubarak has squashed them like a bug, and good on him for it.

Richard Baker| 2.4.11 @ 1:02PM

Paul:
I would be concerned regarding the Egyptian military. It is a caste ridden force and I would remind that Sadat was killed by Muslim Brotherhood from within the Army. These Islamic crazies LUST for an attack on Israel.

rdman| 2.4.11 @ 2:04PM

As Egypt prepares us for a New Middle East
***************

You really did mean... As Obami and Soros prepare us for a New Middle East... right??

John| 2.4.11 @ 2:22PM

What America is supporting freedom in Me. Last time I looked you were supporting Mubarak . But Thata not twisted. You live in a twisted World were black has become White. I pity you.

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:13PM

You are either naive or willfully blind. Any sane and moral person would rather have a Mubarak in charge of Egypt rather than the Muslim Brotherhood. If they take over, you will have a totalitarian Islamic regime similar to the Iranian Islamofascist mullocracy. There will be no "freedom" for the Egyptian people in such a case. There will only be an order of magnitude more death and misery.

Blacque Jacques Shellacque| 2.4.11 @ 3:19PM

What we cannot live with is an Iran that has nuclear weapons. It will be up to the rest of the world to make sure it doesn't happen.

Of course it will, because Obie certainly isn't up to the task.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 5:22PM

let them have nukes, now their will be a balance of power and israel will have to stop creating turmoil in the middle east and if it cant well go to war,just understand america has no horse in the race.

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:16PM

Israel has created NONE of the turmoil in the middle east. If the Arabs and Iran really wanted peace, they could have it tomorrow simply for the asking, and simply by not waging war anymore on Israel. but they will not do that, because they do not want peace, they only want the death of Israel. They are bloodthirsty warmongers, and sooner or later they will reap the whirlwind if they continue in their unholy ways.

martin j smith| 2.4.11 @ 3:33PM

It is time for the Tea Party and others who are in the Republican Majority to get involved in foreign policy issues sooner than later. Its bad enough that our Economy is in shambles, but this country and others will be destroyed and I do believe Rush L is correct: Obama is not incompetent--he is a trojan horse working for other international political forces who want the US put out. Obama not as a naive fool but an agent of anti-American foreign forces is the most accurate description. Lets start with George Soros..
As for Egypt: If the Muslim brotherhood are in power--thats it. The days of "peace" are numbered.

BackToBasics| 2.5.11 @ 3:46AM

Obam had to jump through some hoops to get where he is; I refrain from calling him pres.

Such as winning the primaries and winning the election. So, I am not sure he is a Trojan horse as he was not appointed directly to his position. But he is a Trojan Horse of his own making and yes there are others who are using him and helping him in this.

But they would have helped H. Clinton or J. Kerry or whoever the put up these days.

BackToBasics| 2.5.11 @ 3:48AM

But I agree with you in the spirit of the matter and yes if the MB gets in, I think Israel will use a nuclear preemptive strike to save themselves.

jolizoom| 2.5.11 @ 5:02PM

I had a dyslexic moment and read "trojan hose"... how appropriate!

Pat| 2.4.11 @ 3:39PM

Maybe it’s time to give it a rest – if we want to scare ourselves there’s always Saw IX or Jaws 12 – Shamu meets the Shark appearing at the Cineplex. We, Americans, go through this each time there is unrest in the Middle East; it’s either The Muslim Brotherhood, Hezbollah or Bowling Buddies of the True Prophet out to destroy us. Ad nauseum to the max.

Will we lose the Suez Canal? Who can know but the power to destroy something grants the power to control something. And the Muslim states have been squatting over an ocean of oil for decades – yet, despite our constant fear, they haven’t dynamited the well heads or toppled every drilling rig. Had they done so, all First World countries would have immediately declared a national emergency, instituted severe rationing and each of us Great Satans would have felt the destructive impact within our daily lives.

If they hate us so much, you would think, by now, they’d have realized what they control and have the power to destroy. The dizzying attractions of worldwide political influence, incredible wealth and undeserved prestige within the international community are powerful incentives and effectively outweigh the threat of our nuclear aircraft carriers when it comes to maintaining the status quo within the Middle East.

But our media believes we need to be distracted from our many domestic woes. Maybe they’re right and Nicholas Kristoff of the New York Times claims: “we’re all Egyptians now”. Rioting in the streets to topple a corrupt governmental system? For all us Egyptians here at home, what an intriguing idea.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 4:26PM

Pat,
bless your little heart...............and little brain.
Go back and bury your head in the sand. We adults will struggle to cover your little denial butt.

Seriously, a lot of fine men have died to give you the opportunity to be so dismissive and la de da.

Pat| 2.4.11 @ 5:09PM

Old Whatever:

If I understand you correctly, you’re frightened so everyone has to be frightened? If unwarranted panic loves company, you’re claiming the designated driver’s seat? Rather than constantly shushing everybody, try getting out more, enjoy the sunshine, stroll down to the bakery and buy a bran muffin – strive for a cleansing. Becoming a fearful old woman is never attractive, regardless of what state you hail from.

Occam's Tool| 2.4.11 @ 11:47PM

Pat---did you ever STUDY any history at all? Please read about Curtis LeMay and consider the law of unintended consequences.

TomB| 2.4.11 @ 3:41PM

You guys make me wish I was a Texian...I"m proud of you, we need more like you.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 5:19PM

iran with nukes isnt a threat to america, And it is treasonous to whip up fear among americans and try to push america to invade iran on behalf of israel. israel is afraid it wont be able to kill palestinians for sport anymore with a nuclear armed iran. btw every journalist should first disclose they are jewish before commenting about iran/israel/foreign policy.

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:20PM

You are truly twisted. The so-called palestinians (they are actually Jordanians) are the ones who have declared open season on da juice. These death cultists could have peace tomorrow if they really wanted it. They do not want it. They only want to kill juice. They are sadistic monsters.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 5:34PM

american political and military support for israel was the motivating factor for the 9-11 terrorist attacks...9-11 commission report

John| 2.4.11 @ 5:56PM

Mortimer
You talk alot of sense . Makes Change from the usual fairy tails from ken & co.
Interesting I see that Obama McCain are now looking beyond Mubarak . That has to be welcome first step to complete removal of american military forces on ME. which is what sane people want. It will reduce tension . A free Arab are inlikley to tolerate forign occupation. what americans fear is not Islam but losing control of ME states. But the cat is out of the bag.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 6:06PM

americans dont fear losing controll,jews in america and israel fear they will finally get their comuppence for years of slaughtering mothers wifes children ect..... jewish organizations in america and aipac along with krauthammer,krystal,bolton,in the media have one goal TO USE AMERICAN BLOOD AND TREASURE TO FURTHER JEWISH INTERESTS AROUND THE WORLD

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 4:10AM

Boy, you sure are ate up.

If you will recall it was American military folks and American Treasure spent in Yugoslavia when that country came apart keeping the so called "Christians" from exterminating the Moslems. How convenient that we forget the unconvenient.

Now, pretty much what this all comes down to is one simple fact. Given the first opportunity you savages will converge on Israel looking to grease anything that even looks Kosher. It's what barbarians do.

Americans stood buy and watched another bunch of barbarians slaughter the Jews at another time and at another place. The Americans saw and knew what was happening much to our own shame and to the shame of the world to watch and let such a thing happen to anybody.

Now, we can not undo what has been done but we can keep it from happening again.

FTM was a job that I did at one time. A3-C3 fire control. Pretty much didn't like the job. I'm one of those folks that you run into from time to time that pretty much doesn't like the idea of sending kids out to kill other people's kids because a room full of old men ran out of ideas.

In my way of thinking the worst sin that one person can commit agains another is to kill the other person. I can restore your property but I can't restore your life. The second worst sin that one person can commit against another is to stand by and do nothing while someone else is killed.

Keep it up mortimer 'ol buddy, sure as politicians lie, just keep it up. You can drop all this hatred and go home and live in peace, sure enough and pretty much everyone will let you. Keep doing what you're doing and the ending won't be, "and we all lived happily ever after" sure as God lives. Your choice.

Thing is, you think that this will be a fight. It won't be. You're a little kid with a fly-swatter. I've got a gun. You don't have a chance. Do the smart thing and quit now. Nobody is taking your oil, best as I can tell every barrel has been bought and paid for. You are making the future right now. You can have a quiet peace with all the prosperity that goes with it, kids and grandkids and a future or sure extermination. Thing is, if the past is any indication of the future you're too blinded by your hatred and ignorance to live.

phydeaux| 2.5.11 @ 1:37PM

Ah, mortimer, you are so right. if only we had given ol' Adolf a little more time, all of this mess could have been avoided.

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:23PM

There will be no freedom for Egyptians if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over. The totalitarian regime they set up will make Mubarak look positively benevolent by comparison. You and your pal Mortimer are dreaming if you think otherwise.

John| 2.4.11 @ 6:43PM

Mortimer
I agree that US forign policy is definitely for the benefit of isreal. Aipac has undue influence on American national interest. It must be remembered most of the most fanatical supporters of isreal are Christian zionist. And the most ardent opposers of Zionism are ultra orthodox Jews. There is distinction between the racist ideology of Zionism and the great region of judism

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 7:01PM

christian zionists in america number about 10 thousand, christians follow jesus and the teachings of peace,brotherhood,and goodwill towards all gods children. not calling for the killing of all muslims in the middle east. jewish media have put the christian zionist myth forward, try to find one

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:24PM

Why do you consider the Jews racist? The arabs are by far the most extreme racists on the face of the earth.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.4.11 @ 6:45PM

Folks,
Mortimer's real name is muhhamed.
Muhhammed the prophet never told the truth in his life and little muhhamed just can't quite do so himself....A good muhhamedan, heh.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 6:57PM

ken(old jew) ........we americans who arn't jews dont care if you and the muslims kill eachother just dont involve OUR christian country, but that doesnt work for jews huh. ban aipac and all jewish organizations from involving themselves in our decisionmaking

Occam's Tool| 2.4.11 @ 11:47PM

Ken's not Jewish...but we would be proud to have him.

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 1:12PM

you are his jew internet partnet on EVERY thread,lol you trash are so predictable

John| 2.4.11 @ 6:47PM

Mortimer
I agree that US forign policy is definitely for the benefit of isreal. Aipac has undue influence on American national interest. It must be remembered most of the most fanatical supporters of isreal are Christian zionist. And the most ardent opposers of Zionism are ultra orthodox Jews. There is distinction between the racist ideology of Zionism and the great region of judaism. The Jews have been murdered in very large numbers by the west without any mercy or limit. Historically Muslims and Jews have been close. I see no reason why that can not continue.

mortimer| 2.4.11 @ 7:03PM

judaism on its face is racist you moron (chosen people) the teachings of the talmud is what makes a jew act like a jew. google "jews burning new testaments in religious ceromony" thats what judaism teaches

Occam's Tool| 2.4.11 @ 11:49PM

Sieg Heil, Mort (Dead) i (in) mer (the sea). Fine name for a piece of scum.

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:27PM

Islam and arab culture is on its face racist in the extreme. Anyone in an arab country who is ethnically or religiously "other" than Muslim is considered lower than a dog. The Muslim arabs are the most radically and extremely racist culture the world has ever seen.

Dixie Pixie| 2.4.11 @ 9:07PM

Welcome back to the Carter and Shah Show.
It has certainly been a exciting first act so far.
Our Fearless Leader Obama and the most intelligent woman ever, Sec. State Hillary have provided comedians and historians material for years to come.

To sum up the first act to date, the unlovely but secular socialist President Mubarak attempted to pass on the family businesses to his son in the time honored Arab tradition.
Also in the time honored Arab tradition of "…grab anything you can, anytime you can ,anyway you can..." the various Egyptian political factions took the opportunity to riot for more goodies.
Since Mubarak had the political goodies, he had to go in the Muslim tradition.
That is, surrounded by his closest supporters with all their heads tastefully mounted on colorful lances.

The International Socialists and their Washington / New York branch offices suddenly recalling their youthful drug-addled experiences protesting anything that popped into their heads, concluded with no evidence there was a Pro-democratic revolution underway.
Naturally the MSM pronounced the rioters a Democratic Movement and gave it their full support.
A man with a perfect liberal resume of being a physicist and Nobel prize winner was found and pronounced Ever-Glorious Leader of the Opposition.
Thus assured of a Wonderful Democratic / Progressive Future to come, the International Left pressed for the full support of the Democratic Movement of the Egyptian People.

Fearless Leader Obama, after carefully heeding the direction of the progressive windbags, jettisoned the national interest, years of diplomatic policy and loyalty, any national decency or common sense and joined the call for Mubarak to resign immediately.
Fearless Leader also called for the peaceful protesting in the Washington tradition.
The Muslim tradition is to consider any violence by Muslims as peaceful, so the rioters emulated the "peaceful protests" of the Palestinian Intifada
Thus "Protests" became outright Revolt.
Of course President Mubarak then sent his supporters into the street to "Protest" the "Protesters".
Full scale battle for the "Arab Street"has resulted punctuated by pauses to revictual and "Reload".
The first act will end with the end of the Presidency of Hoshi Mubarak.

The second act will start with the Elites installation of the " Ever-Glorious Leader of the Opposition" as Mubarak replacement.
The second act will be the battle to keep the Ever-Glorious Leader alive and in office.
In that battle the Elites will find the Ever-Glorious Leader supporters are limited to his immediate family and international support.
The second act will close with the Ever-Glorious Leader on the run from the Muslim Brotherhood front groups.

The third act will start with the rise of a Muslim Brotherhood government.
After the government is instilled, the slaughter of the secularists and Coptic Christians will began.
The Muslim Brotherhood will use Holy Terror to consolidate power by eliminating the "Enemies of Islam".
The third act will close with all those who aided the rise of the Muslim Brotherhood exonerating themselves for the debacle.
The dead will be swept under the rug and forgotten.
And the curtain will close.

The next stop in the Carter and Shah Show will be Yemen then Jordan.

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 1:14PM

christians in egypt (32 million) are blaming israeli mossad for the church bombing

Dixie Pixie| 2.5.11 @ 5:56PM

Greetings Mortimer

Muslims have a rather unusual relationship with the Philosophy of Reality.
It is a fundamental principal of Muslim Doctrine that all things are subject to the "Will Of Allah".
As a result "Allah" is not bound by the Laws of Physics nor any bounds set by Reality.
Such a condition would be a inconceivable and intolerable limitation on the the "Will Of Allah".

For example under Muslim Doctrine the local gravitational field constant of 9.81 meters per second squared only exists because "Allah" wills it to exist.
Of course under Muslim Doctrine, Allah can change his mind at anytime and thus change the gravitational field constant at any time, to any value.

The Mullahs of Islam find this is a very useful concept as they are the formal interpreters of the "Will Of Allah" they can change "reality" to their satisfaction and claim Allah changed his mind and as good Muslims submissive to the "Will Of Allah", all must believe in that change.

In the case you cited the Mullahs used this methodology to change a vicious attack on the Coptic Christians by the local Muslims into a attack by the Mossad.
This change in "reality" exonerated the Muslim perpetrators and reframed the blame to the "Enemy’s of Islam".
The claim that the Coptic Christians believe this nonsense is a way of further confusing the account of the unprovoked attack.
Thus you have cited a case of standard Muslim methodology.

I hope this little note further enlightened yourself and other readers.
I await your reply.

BackToBasics| 2.6.11 @ 8:12PM

No they are not, thet are blaiming al-Qaida.

John| 2.4.11 @ 9:33PM

Dixie pixie
These right wing fantasies will be proven wrong. You should try to be positive. You should try getting out and about a bit more. to much right wing fantasising can rot the brain. These are great times for freedom and democracy. This is change we can all believe in.

Dixie Pixie| 2.4.11 @ 10:47PM

Greetings John
Your optimism does you credit.
I will be happy to tip a glass to you if my "Right-Wing Fantasies" are proven wrong.

However I have seen this "Carter and Shah Show" before.
I am not so optimistic as you are.

If Obama and Hillary were as smart as they claim to be, they should have called for the peaceful transition of power in the context of Egyptian Law.
Then sent the 6th Fleet to stand offshore to protect "American Interests" and provide for the safety of American personal.
The next step would be to assemble a international team to assist the Egyptian Government in free and fair elections this September.
Properly supervised elections would provide President Mubarak a graceful way out and his replacement by a secular government with widespread support.

Instead Fearless Leader Obama and Hillary has bungled the job.
Now only chaos will be the result and the Muslim Brotherhood will win on a tidal-wave of blood.

I am happy to be proven wrong but future history will be the judge.

Dixie Pixie| 2.4.11 @ 11:06PM

Another thought John.

Did you catch tonight’s MSM broadcast where it was reveled that the "Ever-Glorious Leader of the Opposition" and American Media anointed "Next President of Egypt" is now in hiding for fear of his life.
Act Two of the "Carter and Shah Show" is looking to be a very short act.

hatch NOW| 2.4.11 @ 10:09PM

"The US has one final task before the Globalists
finish collapsing it and RED China is brought
forward as the 'eugenics realism' policeman
of the world ----and that is to 'bring in' the recalcitrant Middle East."
-Alan Watt
Cutting Through the Matrix
(online)

UNDENIABLE.

ESSENTIAL.

martin j smith| 2.5.11 @ 8:26AM

John and Mortimer or is it Aljazeera and Hamas--or
are they even human. Racists,bigots and the very worst product of the human race. How can G-d have created such speciments ? Maybe they were products of Dr Frankenstein ? I don't know but you have a two pronged --a duet of the very base, the very worst stuff available. Congratulations AmSpec !!!!!!!!!!!!

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 9:38AM

Martin,

Buddy, you can't stop stupid. Stupid is a cruise missile; once it's off the launch rail there's no talking to it.

In the case of these two, their minds appear to be so incredibly poisioned with cut-n-paste revisionist history and hatred taught from the cradle that there's no making sense to either.

Basically what this all cooks down to is that the Moslems hate the US because the US will not allow a second holocost.

The truth is that the British developed the Saudi oil fields, America has been only a customer. Shell Oil is present but is Dutch, Royal Dutch Shell is the name of the company. The British partitioned the Ottoman Empire and basically drew the lines of the modern Middle East. The US had nothing to do with this partitioning. The truth is that the area which at the time was called "TransJordan" was partitioned between the Palistinians and the Jews. The Palistinians made it plain that they wanted all of TransJordan or none and they ended up with none. The truth is that the people that call themselves "Palistinians" are for the most part ethnic Jordinians. Seems that there was a minor ethnic faction in the area that was to become the modern nation-state of Jordan that attempted to assasinate the king of the major, controlling ethnic faction and failed. The minor faction ethnic Jordinians that didn't have the sense to get out of the area before the major faction got their collective act together got wiped out. The ones that beat feet are the modern day "Palistinians."

The word "Palistine" is left over from the Roman Empire days and was a reference to the Philistine people that the Romans knew lived in the area. If these people aren't Philistines then they can't be Palistinians.

Did you know that Yassir Arafat's Mom and Dad were Egyptians?

Speaking of which, there is only one historical Middle Eastern nation state that pre-dates Israel and that's Egypt. Syria (The Assyrian Empire) Iraq (Bablyon) and Iran (Persia) all claim a modern right to exist as a modern nation state because of the antiquity of their respective nations. The modern nation state of Israel predates all three of these other nation states but isn't allowed to use the same arguement.

An unrelated truth is that in antiquity Sudan was part of Egypt.

Another truth is that the historical landmass controled by Israel is much larger that modern Israel. The borders of historical Israel extend from the Mediteranian to the Euphrates River and from Most of Syria and all of what is now Jordan.

All of the above is a part of the historical record that is freely available in the public domain. That's the truth. The truth is that the Egyptians the Jordinians and the Syrians will not allow archeological exploration in all but the rarest cases for fear that even more evidence of the historical Israel will be uncovered. In Jerusalem the WAQF (whatever) has been conducting "construction projects" for most of the past twenty or so years, actually strip mining the temple mount in order to destroy any archeological record of any of the Jewish temples that existed on the site prior to the Al Asqua Mosque.

This is the truth. What I don't understand is why someone, hasn't made the presentation in expanded form. The information is there. I can see why the American Lame Stream Media hasn't but in the information age it seems to me that someone should have the truth, the historical and footnoted past published for anyone with an interest to see. The stuff that Mortimer and John are selling is pure BS.

Mike D.| 2.5.11 @ 9:58AM

FTM,

Congrats on your historical post. Everything you posted is historical fact and its always been overlooked and denied by those with agendas. Isreali's have every right to claim their homeland as any other group in the middle east and in some cases more so. Bravo on a great post!

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 6:00PM

This series of historical fact has not been overlooked. This series of historical fact has been deliberately and with malice aforethought distorted in order to serve to justify a sick and monsterous political mindset.

John| 2.5.11 @ 12:05PM

There is nothing wrong in the study of history. But when it is used to feed the myth of right of return to a land where you've not been for a few thousand years then it becomes very dangerous. You have to be utterly insane to beleive in that. Unfortunately the Palestinians are still being murdered and colonised to today based on this deranged idea. Why the american tax payer should be funding this obsurdity I'll never know. I see that you seem to put a a lot of value on this myth of return based history of two millennia . if everybody started exercising rights based on mythologies were would we be. The truth is zionists have a deep seated racist attitude towards Arabs. This allows them to carry out the crimes they have. Yes to history no to ethnic cleansing. The Palestinian right of return is enshrined in international land. Isreal America Abbas, Mubarak and co will never take that away.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.5.11 @ 1:46PM

John,
Other than your murderous leanings, I actually only have two problems with muslims.
First, I don't like pedophiles enslaving nine year old girls and calling it "marriage".

Second, having lived all over the middle east, watching muslims copulating with sheep was disgusting...especially when youall always seemed to pick the ugliest sheep.

John| 2.5.11 @ 8:14PM

Ken
thats very insulting. Very unchristian. Very un-American.
That Palestinian Christians Muslims are being ethnically cleansed from their land today And tomorrow (watch any news channel). You think this is good. Shame on you.
The palestinian refugees both Christian and Muslim refugees have a right of return under internTional law. But you want them to continue to stink in refugee camps. Shame on you.
I want jeWs Muslims Christians to live in brotherhood in historic Palestine . But you want some hate filled ethnic cleansing. Shame on you.
I pray that god turns you away from hate. Hate is a terrible place to be. it just eats you up and gives nothing back in return. Thankfully you are in a minority . at heart Americans are a good people.

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 4:54PM

Poor John, sick of mind, consumed with rage and hatred. And I am the insane one.

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 5:07PM

John... John... John...

Wake up John, wake up. You've been having a fevered nightmare. You've been sick, sick in your heart and sick in your mind for a long, long time. You are far from out of the woods yet. You are at a crossroads in the course of your sickness, the path that you choose will determine your outcome. The one path leads to clarity of mind and strength of heart. Health and peace, hard work and prosperity. The ofher path leads to further sickness, decrepitude, and eventually to a tortured and bitter death.

Come back with us John, come back into the light and live John.

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 6:56PM

OK John,

Using your own arguement then the modern day nation states of Syria, Iran and Iraq should not exist. Claiming to be a modern day descendant of an ancient Assyrian, Babylonian or Persian makes as much sense as claiming to be descended from Charlemaigne or perhaps El Cid.

The Ottomans pretty much homogenised the area, moving population groups around and the like. Truth is that the Babylonians and the Persians did the same thing, moving conquered populations groups out of their homelands and the like. Shuffling the populations.

During the 13th century one of the Ottoman Sultans issued a "Proclimation to all of European Jewery" to locate themselves in the TransJordan area, the historical homeland of the Jews as acknowledged by this Sultan. Seems that this particular Sultan was appalled at the Roman Catholic predisposition to convert Jews to the "true" Roman Catholic faith and was more than ready, eager and willing to be exact, to set fire to anyone that was reluctant to "see the light." This would be the Spanish Inquisition. Needless to say, Jews from Spain and Italy moved to the TransJordan area by the drove. Better by far to move back to the land that you supposedly came from that to be burned at the stake.

Now John, you seem to be a fairly bright man of perhaps a better than average intelligence. Buddy, brother you too are one of God's children. Your viewpoint is badly skewed from the mainstream. Your recounting of history has been tinkered with in order to promote an old, old hatred.

The Jews do not fire barrage rockets at civilian population centers. In fact the Jews are roundly condemned by the world at large when they shoot back. The Jews do not use women and children as shields around their rocket launchers that would be the heroic Palistinians.

John, buddy, listen to what you are saying. You are saying that black is white and that white is black when everyone else in the room knows different. John, snap out of it. Wake up John.

John| 2.5.11 @ 8:21PM

Ftm
stop these fairy tales. WhAt I beleive is that Jews Muslims Christians will again one day live in brotherhood in historic Palestine. That is the only way. I think I've seen the future. Join me.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 3:30AM

Well John, 'ol buddy, I don't know what to tell you. You've been confronted with truth and have rejected the truth.

So tell me, what bunch of nuts are you affiliated with? Klan? Skinheads? Aryan Nation? Possible, maybe, perhaps some new bunch of nuts?

I will tell you what my pappy used to tell me about people like you when I was a kid, "hell ain't even half full yet."

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:34PM

Bravo, FTM. Great job of accurately synopsising the actual history of the region. Too bad those with an Islamist agenda (John and Mortimer, among others) will simply ignore the reality and continue to spout their fantasy land fairy tales.

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 1:20PM

martin j smith (pseudo christian sounding name) is a paid jewish commenter here to protect israeli/jewish interests, they organize at these sites than fan out to post pro jewish/israeli comments....".giyus"" jidf.org" and "stand with us" these sites were set up by aipac and the israeli foreign ministry to influence american public opinion on the web,they are encouraged to use "non jewish sounding names" these scum are nothing less than subversives in the employ of israel

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:34PM

Mortimer is a paid Islamist commenter.

Dixie Pixie| 2.5.11 @ 7:17PM

Greetings Martin

You may have hit on a new movie concept.

"The Jihadist Zombies of Dr Frankenmullah"

Opening Scene:::
Deep with the dark and menacing caverns of Mecca glows acres of bubbling glassware.
Between the rows of sinisterly sparking and bubbling glass machinery scurries hordes of the islamic version of "Igor"
Hunchbacked and physically maimed by the sins and crimes of Islam, the "Igors" tends the malignantly glowing machinery like malevolent mice.

In the center of the venomous hive of activity, the arc-lit figure of Dr Frankenmullah suddenly screams::
"THEY ARE ALIVE
--- MY NEWEST CREATIONS ---
--- JOHN AND MORTIMER ARE ALIVE ---"

You may add to that at the dictates of your personal Muse, Martin.
Although Ken (Old Texican) may suggest it is best moved to the Icon marked "Recycle Bin".
I will let you decide.

I await your reply.

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 10:02PM

that was impressive you have talent for sure, still a propagandist, but very talented none the less.

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:36PM

You sir,are the propagandist (but a very poor one).

Dixie Pixie| 2.5.11 @ 11:27PM

Greetings Mortimer
Thank you for the complement.
I am glad you liked my simple jest.

While TAS has declared a Cease-Fire Armistice with the PC and English Police and I certainly don't want to break that ceasefire, did you accidentally drop a comma or were you trying to channel "Yoda" for comic effect.
If so, it is best to break apart and rearrange the logical elements in the sentence and throw in a ...Hummmm... now and then.
Of course it is best to reference Yoda in some way as some readers may not get the joke.

And yes I too am guilty of dropping letters and words in my post.
The above sentence should read "....Deep within the dark and menacing caverns....".
I do apologize for my mistake.

I did note you did not reply to my above post on the usages of Muslim Logic.
Frankly I wanted your lucid opinion on the post.
Granted it is a unusual request considering the Meme of the thread.
But I still would like your reply.

And that of Martin and Ken.
Gentlemen and/or Ladies, I await your replies.

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.5.11 @ 11:57AM

FTM,
Mike D.
Thank you both for your posts.
An interesting digression if I may. One of my profs at Baylor U. was on the archeological team that discovered "King David's Arch" under Jerusalem. It seems there was a massive underground water viaduct leading into the city in ancient days.
The builders dedicated the viaduct to King David and carved said dedication on an arch in it...the carving had Hebrew with a full "vowel" complement instead of the jots and tiddles used for almost two thousand years.
The final result of the "dig" was the re-birth of Hebrew as a living spoken language.
My prof, Dr. Kyle Yates, (A Christian), helped the Israelis decipher the vowels after many years of personal study on his part....right there at Baylor.

Personally, I am very glad that TAS allows the Mortimers, Johns, and communists, (pardon the shorthand), to post on this site. We get the opportunity to glimpse their twisted hearts and minds for our edification.
Paul,
Guys,
You might want to buy part One of my newest novel. Part One is titled "Texas Said NO!" (to Sharia Law) (It is an E-book published quickly to get it out before the elections last November.

Part two is forthcoming and the two parts together will be re-titled to "America Alone Said NO!"
Part one costs ten dollars at www.texassaidno.com
Part two will also be published as an E-book (PDF file) first, and any of you who buy part one will get part two ...no charge. ( I will kill some trees and get it in paper-back in due time.)
Paul,
I am perfectly aware of ALL of the consequences of a nuclear strike...or strikes...whether ground bursts...or air bursts.
I have the complete Kearny Report out of Oakridge Labs...that was meant to be published in every newspaper in a nuclear war crisis.
Wonderful Idiot, Jimmy Carter refused to have it distributed to said newspapers via "Presidential Order"
A wonderful patriot decided I should have it shortly after it was compiled.

I was so stunned by the contents (Deep Cold War era) that I resigned the presidency of a rather large company to continue my research.
The first thing I did was photocopy and mailed it to a publisher friend...then I sat down and wrote my first novels.
Those novels told, in a story-book way, how to walk away safe from a major nuclear exchange, and how to build the country back together. (Most of you have probably read it.)

Meanwhile, my publisher friend published a non-fiction book that most of you still have on your bookshelves. (If not, sniff around at amazon .com, and search under nuclear war).

So, no, Paul, a nuke itself..........or even several dozen, could not end the United States of America.
.......we just could not recognize it during our remaing lifetimes.
It/they would provoke full mobilization.....times ten, and may very nearly create a police state thereafter, out of pure necessity.

God's speed gentlemen.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 5:23AM

I don't think that a nuclear event, whatever the scenario, would be the end of America, the continent and cities and for the most part the people would all still be here. The problem is that in the midst of the panic what would happen and after the dust settled and the smoke cleared what would be the new status quo.

I think that if I were the president regardless of what I knew about whodidit, that I would be afraid that whodidit might be getting ready to do it again and I'd hate awfully much to be the guy that goes down in history as the guy that got sucker-punched and didn't do anything about it.

I think deep down in my heart of hearts that in the event of some goober lighting up a nuke in, over or around an American city that within about fifteen minutes that every major middle eastern muslim population center is going to get cratered.

Do you know what a "time on target' artillery shoot is? Artillery can be fired in such a fashion, shells fired at different trajectories and with different propellant loads so that all of the shells fired in rapid succession land on the target at the same time.

I think that rods dropped from circumpolar orbiting MILSATs in a predetermined sequence at different times and from different trajectories will all land at the same time. Basically, what you're looking at is all the existing, known nut-job, wild-eyed, bomb tossing sons of the prophet getting vaporized so close to simultaneously that it won't matter. They won't have time to coordinate and the world media won't have time to start whining till it's all over and done with. No radiation, no fall out, just a tall smoking hole where a city used to be.

We could speculate in regards to the target list, the frag list if you want. Suffice it to say that twenty drops and world Islam would cease to exist. It's all that easy. One has to speculate what all those classified US Air Farce shuttle launches were about. I can't imagine the Air Farce day job guys jacking around with a shuttle launch for giggles. Politicians have been decommissioning nukes pretty regular too. Kinda-sorta makes one wonder don't you think?

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 1:25PM

ken (old jew) is here to influence and frighten americans into thinking muslims are plotting against america. muslims hate jews for their slaughter of women, and children in palestine and lebanon, we were attacked on 9-11 for supporting their behavior( which we are forced to do by aipac) getting rid of israel would end terror overnight, but first americans need to demand to removal of jews and jewish organizations from public life

Mike D.| 2.5.11 @ 3:41PM

Muslim fascist leadership has made no bones about their desire to inflict(yes inflict) a worldwide islamic order on the infidels who inhabit the rest of the earth. How many times do we have to hear that Islamic nutjob in Iran say it?
Here's another hot newsflash for you and your muslim cohorts. Isreal is not going anywhere and if by chance they do, you all are going with them up in smoke. So you better get used to the idea of them being around for a while.

George True| 2.5.11 @ 10:40PM

Mortimer, you actually spoke truth for a change. Within your screed are the words "Muslims hate Jews". That is the whole story. They hate the Jews first and foremost. Then they hate anyone who is not a Muslim (all the rest of us). They hate, period. That is what they are about. And sooner or later, they will annihilate themselves through their hatred of the entire non-Muslim world.

mortimer| 2.6.11 @ 10:52AM

you jews want americans to believe muslims are OUR enemies so bad, you jews kill their mothers fathers,sons,babies, and when they fight back you think through aipac and the 87 percents jewish owned media you can manipulate america into sending OUR boys to die invading your muslim enemies. T-PARTY PUT AND END TO THAT..... GUYS LIKE HUKABEE ARE DESPISED BY THE T-PARTY embarrassing our christian country by flying to israel to call for a release of jonathan pollard and telling bibi "americans have no right to force peace on israel" AMERICA FIRST!!!! GET USED TO IT!!!

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.5.11 @ 1:40PM

Mortimer, muhhammed
Thank you!
You just keep filling in the missing pieces of the puzzle for our deliberations.
When do you scream"Off with your heads!"? heh.

I will pray to the Living God for your repentance.

jolizoom| 2.5.11 @ 4:33PM

Re: the story about Hussein and Yazid--Hussein must have thought he was Gideon... you know, had Allah on his side and all.

Mimi| 2.5.11 @ 5:09PM

Mortimer....America can never give up support of Israel. we are a Judeo-Christian nation...The Christian religion was born from Christ who was Jewish. We honor God by respecting and loving our Jewish brethren always we will support and protect them. In 1945 the death-camps were discovered by our soldiers film was taken , our world was shocked and saddened...we liberated the frail..bone like survivors.....We shall never forget....Another Holocost will never happen! The U.N. after WWar 2 returned the Jews to their homeland. They have never been allowed to Live in PEACE because the remnants of Nazism remain. Time will heal...change will come...Hearts will heal....Shalom!!

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 6:20PM

google "rabbis spitting on american christians in israel" and tell me what we have in common with scum who hate jesus. the new testament is our book not the talmud which jews live by

FTM| 2.5.11 @ 7:22PM

Mortimer, the Talmud (The Torah) is the first five books of the Old Testament of the Christian Bible. The New Testament makes regular and routine refrence to the Old Testament. Jesus himself when he is fasting in the desert and is tempted by the devil quotes the Torah to refute the Devil. "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God" and "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" and "How does it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his soul?"

The last quote is especially relevant in light of this discussion. How does it profit a man if he should gain the whole world and lose his soul? Your promotion of a murderous "religion" flies fully in the face of reason, basic human decency and the historical record. It's not at all too late for you Mortimer, you can stop what you are doing and repent your murderous intent against your neighbor. You can allow basic human loving kindness to prevail or you can continue to let your hatred consume you.

Mortimer, you don't have to like your neighbor. Two people that are the fastest of friends will sooner or later have a falling out. It's basic human nature. The hallmark of human integrity and maturity is that after the falling out, they get over it and act like big people toward each other.

Like what Jesus said, "what man if his son were to ask for a loaf of bread would instead hand his son a serpent?" Mortimer, if someone were to come to you, be he black or white or yellow or tan or gay or straight or rich or poor were to ask you for something to eat you would seek to poison him instead? Mortimer, are you a madman? Can you not see that if you start killing the neighbors of yours that don't suit you or meet up to your expectations that sooner or later the rest of your neighbors are going to put an end to you out of self defense? Mortimer, can't you see that in this world we surely are in more of a need of friends than of enemies? Mortimer, come into the light. Let go of your hatred, what is done is done. Tomorrow is a new day. Let's get up and go to work, do our jobs get paid and pay our taxes and watch our kids grow up together and to be friendly toward each other. What do you need with this burden of hatred that you carry?

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 10:08PM

you my friend are a maniac,sorta creepy to boot.....oh and btw the talmud is the "oral torah" written by rabbis over a 1500 year period and is what is taught in synagogues and yeshivas all over america.google it. it is the most racist anti christian screed ever written , it is why they were persecuted in the middle ages when christian and muslims saw a copy.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 4:39AM

I am a maniac.

I doubt that you even know the meaning of the word.

VBMax| 2.5.11 @ 8:17PM

FTM...
Thank you for your post. I found it quite inspirational. The problem with the mortimers of the world is that because of the blackness in their own hearts they believe all men are that way. And so they cannot trust others to the point of terror.
It would take an enormous effort on their part to try to seek the truth but we must continue to encourage because we know the truth would set them free.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 3:48AM

Thank you for your kindness VBMax. I am just, only a beat up old man. I have read the Bible through Seven times, a different translation each time. I have read Eusebius and Flavius Josephus. I have read "A History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire" by Gibbon. Gibbon devotes most of one out of eight volumes to "Mohammad and the Rise of the Arabs." I have read Livy and Plutarch and read and read and read.

I want to read Turtullian and Origen. Early Christian Church history.

I've been in the military and own guns. Back when I was a young man I used to shoot competition high power rifle. What I call precision, long distance paper punching.

I have always hoped that the guns that I own would rust in peace and that I would never be called upon to have to bring harm to someone else. There have been a couple situations arise when I didn't think that my hope was going to work out but in the end all was well.

I feel bad for folks who are so consumed with hate and rage, it affects their mentality and their cognition. One can only hope for the best for these people, maybe they will get better.

One thing that you always have to remember though is that sometimes your dog gets rabies and there is only one way to fix rabies.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 6:44AM

Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce tribe tried to take what was left of his people out of the US and into Canada. All together anout 800 people. Who knows what for. The old men and the women and the kids waded through snow and the like trying to stay away from the US Cavalry. The young men and boys that were old enough were trying to fight a rear guard action. They cooked up this "Medicine Shirt" idea that was supposed to make themselves immune to bullets. Didn't work out too good.

I can't imagine that there was anybody in the US Cavalry that gave a shit one way or the other what the Nez Perce did. Some jackass told some jackass, hot-rod cavalry ossifer to go get them people and he did. You'd think that hot-rod cavalry ossifers would be smarter than the horses that they were riding. Seems to me that the smart thing to do would be to go out on a winter horse ride for a while, in the end get cold and say "OK screw this" and leave all the excess food and blankets and all the other stuff out there on the prarie. Maybe chase the Nez Perce in that general direction and the GO HOME. Tell the old jackass, "No boss, didn't see no injuns."

In the end the Cavalry rounded up all of the Nez Perce that didn't get shot, or freeze to death or starve and forced them to walk back to their reservation and that was that. The end.

Chief Joseph must have known from the start that he didn't have a chance in hell of getting these people to Canada. I guess that as the leader he was under some pressure to do something. I don't know. In the end Chief Joseph sat down on top of a hill and died. Story is that he mourned himself to death. Story is that he said, "I will not make war again, forever, I promise."

Now, to me, regardless of the veracity of the story regarding Chief Joseph, one would think that in the long and pitiful history of the human race that people would have finally come to the realization that killing other people serves no useful purpose. Been there, done that, didn't like it, don't want to be involved.

I've known Iraqis and Saudis and Iranians. Folks like that. Decent people, work for a living just like anybody else. Got kids and a house payment. Good in their hearts. Iranians have this dish that they cook using yellow summer squash. They hollow out the squash and stuff it with peas and carrots and diced chicken and cook it with some seasonings and the like. Really, really good eats.

I ran into a guy one time named Vladimir. Vladimir was here in the US learning how to be a heavy equipment operator, dozers and excavators and the like. Great guy, didn't speak real good English laughed a lot. That was OK because I don't speak real good Russian. I spent a lot of time learning to kill Russians. It was all a waste.

How is it that some jackass can stand up and say, "Let's go kill those people" and the people turn around and look at their children and say, "OK boy, get to it." Seems to me that the smart and sane thing to do is when some jackass stands up and says, Let's go kill those people" is to stick a needle in that guy posthaste. Failing that shoot the guy before he starts some real trouble.

I have two kids. They've grown up and moved away, like kids do. When they were little I taught them right from wrong. How to shoot and the like. I taught them not to let other people to make decisions for them, especially decisions regarding the life and or death of people that they don't know that live some other place.

I taught the kids about L shaped ambushes and about lazy Ws and the like. I taught the kids that the easy way is always mined. Just like my pappy taught me. I taught the kids these things for two reasons, first so that they didn't find out about them the hard way and that so some asshole wouldn't get the chance to send them out to do these things to other people. I taught the kids that when people start taking about these horrors that the smart thing for them to do is to excuse themselves and go someplace else because something really bad is about to happen.

Pappy has Kodac Brownie pictures of the Enola Gay. When he had an Air Farce day job in Morocco the Enola Gay was still and Air Farce SAC bomber. The idea was that if the Russians got rowdy to fly this airplane and a bunch of other ones just like it out of Morocco to Russia and incinerate a bunch of people. Perfectly logical thing to do.

I don't have any pictures of the 640 Class Fleet Ballistic Missile Submarine that I worked on. Don't want any. These are war machines and there is no good in any of them.

There is no good in any of this stuff. That's the point. Seems to me that the more people, whoever from wherever that decide not to be involved the better.

I will not make war again forever, I promise. Unless you make me. I don't want to. Doesn't look like any fun to me at all. I already stopped. Why don't you stop too. Then we can all stop and go have a barbeque down by the creek, Waddya say?

There, too much writing about bad things.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 7:14AM

You know what Mortimer? I don't doubt for a minute what you say about Jews spitting on Christians. Jews are people too and are not immune from being stupid, same as anybody else.

I tell you what Mortimer, you and me, let's be smart and not do these sorts of things even to people that do them to us. What do you say. Let's do what Jesus said to do and turn the other cheek. How 'bout it? How 'bout it Mortimer, when people start spitting on other people let's you and me go someplace else and wait for the shit to hit the fan and after it's all over we'll be OK because we were smart enough to go someplace else. How 'bout it Mortimer, let's you and me set an example for other people to follow and tell folks that it's not nice to spit on each other and that it's not nice to call other people scum. People aren't scum Mortimer. People have to be taught to hate Mortimer same as a dog has to be taught to be mean. Be smart Mortimer and stop teachine hate. Use the good sense that God Amlighty God gave you to figure out how to stop this silliness.

mortimer| 2.6.11 @ 10:56AM

The first step for jews to become compatible with 21st century civilization is to renounce the violent,racist TALMUD. which should be banned.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 12:50PM

Nah Mortimer, I know you (I think, I'm pretty sure). Jews won't be compatible with anything till the last one is dead. What's your thing with the Talmud anyway? As far as the Talmud goes, there's no big secret. Now, the practice of Kabala, now that's a big sneaky secret. Madonna does the Kabala.

No Mortimer, I'd say that for folks like you as soon as a Jew were to renounce the Talmud then there'd be something else that the Jew would have to renounce. There would always be another hoop to jump through. Hoop after hoop after hoop.

Mortimer, you hate because hate is easy. Hate is pure emotion. Logic, knowledge, rationality and sanity are much harder states to achieve because you have to work in order to achieve them.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 12:58PM

I betcha that after the Jews were to become compatable with the twenty-first century then we'd have to something with those sneaky, "New World Order" Illuminati Freemasons wouldn't we Mortimer. Then after we compatabilized the last remaining Freemason then we'd have to go after the Elks and then the Knights of Columbus. Not to mention those Homemakers. What's that bunch of wimmins do at them sneaky, top secret homemakers club meetings. You know that the ones at the bottom don't really know what the ones at the top are up to, world domination and eggplant casserole.

Have you thought about a complete physical, including a head X-Ray Mortimer? Seriously? Maybe find a reputable shrink and have a chat or two, or ten or so? I'm just a knuckle-dragging engineer but the spouse works at a psyche hospital. Mortimer, dude, for real man you need to get theis parinoia thing checked out.

mortimer| 2.6.11 @ 1:38PM

take your meds FTM,

mortimer| 2.5.11 @ 10:11PM

I have only one question....do you think its acceptable for innocent young american boys and girls to die invading israels enemies because aipac has a stranglehold on our government????

Richard Baker| 2.5.11 @ 10:22PM

mortimer:
God is making his list and checking it twice. Hope your asbestos suit is ready.

mortimer| 2.6.11 @ 4:05PM

the t-party is making its list and checking it twice. hope your packed and ready to be shipped out. AMERICA FIRST!!! GET USED TO IT!!!! PAUL 2012

Liberal Reader| 2.6.11 @ 4:22PM

Iran (then Persia) last attacked another country about 400 years ago, more than 200 years before the founding of the United States (which last invaded another country 7 years ago).

Iranians are nationalistic, and the idea of having nuclear weapons is very popular there, including among those agitating for more democracy.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 8:06PM

I dunno there Liberal Reader. I had a friend in college that was from Iran. This was right after the Shah fell. Seems that the Shah administered the civil government through the Iranian army. This guy was a school teacher, nothing unusual at all. The cops and the meter reader and the trash collectors were all in the Iranian army.

So the Shah lost his job and this Ayatollah Khomeini guy took over.

The university that I attended had a floor of a dorm that was used to house GIs. They stuck this guy with us because he was a vet too. Anyway, this Iranian school teacher GI was really big into Michelob beer and REO Speedwagon. Real squared away Moslem, you bet. The guy was a real hoot, he did this tribal looking dance to a couple different REO tunes, different song, same dance.

One day this guy in white robes and a thing on his head showed up and the vet and the robe guy started arguing in Farsi. I don't speak a lick of farsi. Anyway it didn't take long for the rest of us to decide that the robe guy was going to have to go so we offered to let him use the elevator or he could go out the window and we were twenty-five floors up. He took the vader.

A couple years later, after I graduated I heard that the Iranian school teacher vet guy went back to Iran to visit with his mom and dad. The Iranian Republican Guard picked the guy up at the airport in Tehran and shot him.

Now I don't know about you but I thought that shooting the guy was way a whole lot extreme. I mean that was completely uncalled for by any civilized standard. What is it that an Iranian elementary school teacher could do, could have done that could possibly be construed as a threat to the Iranian nation state?

I dunno, nukes? Seems to me that sharp sticks are maybe a little too tempting for these folks.

mortimer| 2.6.11 @ 10:46PM

I find your anectdote laughably unplausable, since on another thread tou bragged about graduating from "yeshiva university" in new york.

FTM| 2.7.11 @ 5:20AM

Go play in the road Mortimer.

FTM| 2.6.11 @ 8:23PM

Sorry, I dunno again there Liberal Reader. When I was in college with the Iranian school teacher guy we played volley brawl down to the gym on Wednesday evenings. There was a family that showed up to play, a man and his wife, a lovely lady and their two kids. They were Iraqi. At the time Iran and Iraq were at war, they were using phosgene on each other and the like. There were some Hindi and some other folks that showed up to play. We all had a good time, you'd never know that there was a war on.

I don't know if Iran invaded Iraq or if it was the other way around. I do know that the war was brutal and that casulties on both sides were high. Real ugly.

Maybe that's why the Republican Guard shot the school teacher guy, playing volley brawl with the enemy.

daniel | 2.6.11 @ 4:36PM

This is so bad what it happens there

mortimer| 2.6.11 @ 6:34PM

I love islam, nothing is more satisfying than groveling before islam. Better to be used as woman under islam than to live like a Jewish or Chrsitian man.

BackToBasics| 2.6.11 @ 8:27PM

It's far better to worship at the feet of Jesus. He's the only one who can forgive us of our sins.

mortimer| 2.6.11 @ 10:47PM

youll notice none of the israel firsters on this thread agree with your jesus worship.

mortimer| 2.7.11 @ 12:54AM

this is ken the jew using my name.....hes here to protect israeli interests

Ken (Old Texican)| 2.6.11 @ 8:17PM

No Mortimer.
it is half-time in the super-bowl...a great game so far.
The thing that gives me hope for our way of life is the tens of thousands of young American men...and women...who know how to take a blow that hurts real bad...get up...and keep on playing hard.

The Jihadists practice only on beating up little girls.
When we get tired of their crap, let's just remind them that we are not little girls.

Let's send them back to herding goats.

mortimer| 2.6.11 @ 10:54PM

I guess we disagree in the fact that the t-party believes young american men should be at home watching the superbowl after coming home from church and not dying in iraq or invading and dying in iran for israel. we t-party patriots believe the notion that america even lets a jewish organization like aipac even exist is infuriating, as is watching huckabee denounce american decades old policies demanding israel stop stealing land and keeping palestinians in concentration camps,WHILE IN ISRAEL YESTERDAY. huckabee is an embarrassment to american patriots.

Negro X| 2.7.11 @ 12:43AM

mortimer the only embarrassment here is your cheap islamic attempt at pretending to be a Tea-partier. Go back to having sex with the goats.

mortimer| 2.7.11 @ 12:46AM

ok rabbi

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العاب | 4.11.12 @ 3:49PM

Israel has created NONE of the turmoil in the middle east. If the Arabs and Iran really wanted peace, they could have it tomorrow simply for the asking, and simply by not waging war anymore on Israel. but they will not do that, because they do not want peace, they only want the death of Israel. They are bloodthirsty warmongers, and sooner or later they will reap the whirlwind if they continue in their unholy ways.

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