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Special Report
A Cathedral Wedding
Will priestly lesbian nuptials by Massachusetts Episcopal bishop accelerate Anglican schism?
The New Year’s Day lesbian wedding of an Episcopal seminary president to a high ranking diocesan official has accelerated the long-running controversy over same-sex unions in both the U.S.-based Episcopal Church and the global Anglican Communion.
At least eleven Anglican Primates (heads of national churches) have said they will not attend the annual Anglican Primates meeting January 25-31 in Dublin, due to the inclusion of U.S. Episcopal Church Presiding Bishop Katharine Jefferts Schori. Conservative global south primates are increasingly unwilling to affiliate with U.S. Episcopal Church liberalism, especially same-sex unions. The eleven boycotting primates represent about 80 percent of the global Anglican Communion’s roughly 80 million members.
The Rev. Mally Lloyd, Canon to the Ordinary in the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts, married the Rev. Katherine Ragsdale, dean and president of the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, at St. Paul’s Cathedral in Boston, with Bishop M. Thomas Shaw presiding, and 400 friends attending.
Ragsdale’s Episcopal Divinity School has touted the union, distributing an 800-word press release acclaiming it as “historic.” While the blessings of same-sex unions are now commonplace in many liberal Episcopal dioceses, same-sex “marriages” are a relatively new development.
Ragsdale has been a controversial figure in the 2.1 million-member denomination for both her outspoken affirmation of same-sex “marriage” and homosexual clergy, as well as her unqualified defense of abortion.
Nicknamed by conservative critics as “The High Priestess of Abortion” for enthusiastically backing unrestricted abortion rights, Ragsdale formerly chaired the Washington, D.C. based Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) and is a board member of NARAL Pro-Choice America. She came under renewed heavy criticism three years ago for declaring “abortion is a blessing” while at a rally outside an Alabama abortion clinic. That criticism escalated when Ragsdale became president of Episcopal Divinity School, one of the Episcopal Church’s most liberal of 11 accredited seminaries. Ragsdale is only the second ever female Episcopal seminary chief and the first professed homosexual one. She is also the former director of Massachusetts-based Political Research Associates, a watchdog of conservatism in America.
“It’s astonishing how the world is changing,” Ragsdale gushed in her seminary’s release about her marriage. “When I grew up, I never believed I would be able to have someone special in my life and now to have almost 400 people show up to support us at our marriage ceremony is wonderful.”
As celebrant at Ragsdale’s nuptials, Bishop Shaw has openly supported same-sex marriage for years. He gave his parish priests permission to perform homosexual marriages soon after the 2009 Episcopal General Convention voted to allow “generous pastoral response” in such situations.
Much like the consecration of openly partnered homosexual Bishops Gene Robinson of New Hampshire and Mary Glasspool of Los Angeles, the Episcopal Church’s embrace of same-sex unions continues sharply to divide liberal U.S. Episcopalians and Anglican traditionalists, especially in the Global South. Refraining from same-sex blessings was one of the moratoria requested by leaders of the global Anglican Communion. Liberals in the Episcopal Church argue for what they attest to be widening human experience about sex, while traditionalists cite historic church teachings and a plain reading of Scripture.
“This is another action of reckless disregard for the life of the Anglican Communion and the authority of the Bible by The Episcopal Church,” the Rt. Rev. David C. Anderson, president of the American Anglican Council, told the Christian Post. “They continue to ignore the Communion’s pleas for restraint and continue to go their own way.” Anderson is a bishop in the Anglican Church of North America, formed by orthodox dioceses, congregations, clergy and laity who broke away from the Episcopal Church after the 2003 consecration of its first openly homosexual bishop.
According to an analysis of the liturgy by Anglican writer Peter Ould, the wedding at St. Paul’s Cathedral Church used a modified version of the marriage ceremony from the 1979 Book of Common Prayer. In addition to replacing the traditional husband/wife language to accommodate two persons of the same sex, the service eliminated all reference to procreation and that the bond and covenant of marriage “was established by God in creation, and our Lord Jesus Christ adorned this manner of life by his presence and first miracle at a wedding in Cana of Galilee.”
The Diocese of Massachusetts has seen membership shrink over the past decade, with weekly attendance dropping from about 24,000 in 2001 to about 18,000 in 2009. Declining numbers for the diocese have been mirrored by Episcopal Divinity School, which has struggled with a diminishing number of both enrolled seminarians and finances in recent years. In 2008, the school announced the transfer of many of its historic buildings to neighboring Lesley University in a sale that generated $33.5 million in urgently needed income.
Prior to their current positions, Ragsdale served as vicar of St. David’s Church in Pepperell, while Lloyd was for six years the rector of Christ Church in Plymouth. Both congregations have declined significantly, with St. David’s dropping from 70 attendees in 1999 to less than 30 in 2009, while Christ Church dropped from 200 attendees in 1999 to 150 in 2009, according to the diocese’s self-reported statistics.
The decline of the Episcopal Church in Massachusetts of course reflects the U.S. Episcopal Church’s national decline. Meanwhile, Anglican churches throughout Africa and in Asia continue to grow. Orthodox global south primates are increasingly unwilling to submit to traditional leadership by shrinking, heterodox Western churches. Bishop Shaw’s cathedral wedding for two prominent lesbian priests will likely accelerate that trend.
About the Author
Jeff Walton directs the Anglican program at the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (77) | Leave a comment
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kat| 1.24.11 @ 6:23AM
Yes, and once those blue-hairs still attending Episcopal services shuffle off this mortal coil there will be far, far fewer. As a former Episcopalian, I have seen the swift decline of a denomination that sees nothing wrong with violating all 10 Commandments and promotes violating the 5th, "Thou shalt not kill." All the serious members have converted to something else and the husk of congregants left will float away leaving only the priestesses to preside over empty pews.
Darin| 1.24.11 @ 7:02AM
The Episcopal church has abandoned the Bible. Romans 1 comes to mind.
Paul D| 1.24.11 @ 4:29PM
The End is near.
Redstateboy| 1.24.11 @ 5:20PM
the service eliminated all reference to procreation and that the bond and covenant of marriage "was established by God in creation, and our Lord Jesus Christ adorned this manner of life by his presence and first miracle at a wedding in Cana of Galilee."
The word of God doth get in the way no?
Appleby| 1.24.11 @ 7:22AM
I am ashamed that I ever associated with this group of sex-obsessed heretics, and profoundly grateful to the Catholic Church for welcoming me to a church with a foundation.
David T| 1.24.11 @ 10:48AM
Yes, Appleby, I too am grateful for the Catholic Church, the "pillar and bulwark" of the faith. Mother Church threw me a lifeline as I was sinking into the Episcopalian abyss.
J. Tetzel| 1.24.11 @ 11:20AM
I am in full agreement.
Evanston2| 1.24.11 @ 7:20PM
And did y'all learn anything? It's no accident that Anglican priests and laity are moving over to Romanism. You may occasionally miss the Book of Common Prayer (which you used to replace direct Bible reading) and also find the Papacy a bit much, but it's an easy switch, isn't it? You've jumped from one denomination that relies on ceremony and traditions of men to another. One now overtly homosexual, the other still covertly. Blind leading the blind.
Nick| 1.24.11 @ 8:03PM
Evanston2,
Yep, we Papists are a bunch of covert homos, all right.
That is why our catechism states that homo acts are sinful and intrinsically disordered. Oh, and depraved.
In fact, here is the whole quote:
"Basing itself on sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity, tradition has always declared that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered. They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved" (Catechism of the Catholic Church 2357)
Who is it that is blind?
Evanston2| 1.25.11 @ 2:56PM
Are not practicing homosexuals still kept in the priesthood? If the catechism really mattered, you'd follow it, but homos and pedophiles are welcome as long as they feign repentance. Within authentic Christianity such conduct could be forgiven, but none would be allowed to remain as a pastor. Within Anglicanism and Romanism, your faith is in the frock and not whether the man is actually a faithful follower of Christ. You cover your own deeds in the same way -- salvation by denomination (punch your ticket as a member of "mother church") instead of obedience to God. Is it an accident that cultures where Romanism reigns are economically and morally bankrupt? Regarding a Biblical definition for who is blind, see John 9:39-41. "...but now that you say, 'We see,' your guilt remains."
Nick| 1.25.11 @ 3:17PM
Evanston2,
No, priests caught breaking their vows of sexual abstinence are removed from the parish in which they serve. Priests caught breaking the law, i.e. pedophilia, or in police stings like To Catch a Predator, go to jail like everyone else.
The whole scandal developed because Bishops would shuffle these criminals around for decades, instead of confronting the problem. But, this happened in ALL DENOMINATIONS, not just the Catholic Church.
Also, are you claiming "Romanism reigns [...] economically and morally" in the United States? If you were referring to European countries, their governments have rejected Christ just like ours has. They just had a longer head start.
You seem to be troubled by what you think the Catholic Church teaches, and not what it actually teaches. I invite you to learn more by reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church, easily found online.
God Bless!
Evanston2| 1.26.11 @ 2:43PM
Nick, Thank you for your replies. First, I am very familiar with the Catechism. But when you say that Rome "actually teaches" its contents...well, you're being generous. The people in the pews are not properly catechized. I get many chuckles when I'm told "Catholics don't believe _____ or practice _____." 1 million Philippinos worship a black madonna, some crucify themselves, but I'm wrong...this is "veneration." Catholics worldwide pray to Mary to intercede for them and Mary myths widen in scope and fervor, prayers to other supersaints (shortly JPII) proliferate but this somehow does not supplant Christ (who per the Bible is our sole intercessor). Looking to relics to heal, pilgrimages as worship, the whole concept of the treasury of merit accrued by supersaints instead of Christ's sole payment for sin, the use of the eucharist as a magic vitamin instead of remembering what He did. The Catechism is useful for word games involving subtleties that laypeople neither know nor believe. You yourself play this game in your summary of the homo/pedo issue. The priestly pedo shuffle didn't end until justice external to Rome had enough. Rome did not cooperate with authorities and still hides behind "the sanctity of the confessional" and still claims its own sovereignty. If this is truly comparable, as you say, to ALL DENOMINATIONS then why haven't others been crippled by lawsuits as Rome has? Real Christians remove such ministers, their exception proves how Rome really rules. Further, you acknowledge (since homos haven't "been caught breaking the law") that they are still shuffled from parish to parish. This is what heinous sin means to Rome: rearrange the deck chairs. These are your leaders, they aren't de-frocked but instead are believed to be proper representatives of God, and they vote on the next Pope. Ask yourself, if you went to the confessional today and said you're a homo, would you get a counseling or an invitation to join in some buggery? In my original post when I differentiated between "overt" and "covert" approval, this is what I meant. You also acknowledge my point regarding the powerlessness of "mother church" when pointing to Europe: two-thousand years in Italy, Ireland, France, much of Spain and Portugal, and what has Roman culture wrought? Hundreds of years in South and Central America have been equally doomed by syncretistic compromise with paganism. Only authentic Biblical Christianity has prospered nations, even if its personal presence is one-in-a-million. Even where Rome hasn't been in bed with the State, government churches (like the Anglican and European Lutheran) are the most like Rome and their fruit, if inspected, is the same empty "going through the motions" spirituality that is nothing more than a gussied up degenerate, neo-paganism. To again return to my original point, which Anglicans are you getting? Not the Bible-believing Africans, no sir. Those whom you and other Catholics here have welcomed sat comfortably in apostasy for decades, and have only finally jumped ship when their own personal sensibilities were offended. If you've read this far I sincerely want you to know this: I do not expect to persuade you of anything. Seriously. You know what Romanism, as actually practiced, really is. You'll be able to absorb the Anglicans with little trouble, and best of all they're much more polite than Bible-thumpers like me.
Nick| 1.26.11 @ 4:43PM
Evanston2,
As a fellow Bible thumper, I must state, again, you're making more straw men arguments. Your idea of how the Catholic Church operates is not based in reality.
The Vatican does not micro-manage every Catholic parish in the world, dictating which priests stay, and which ones go. The Holy Father also doesn't tell each parish how many statues they must have, or how many fish fries to have during Lent. This is not how the Catholic Church works.
The Pope is the head of the Church when it comes to the Magisterium, the teaching authority of the Church. The administration of local diocese is the responsibility of the local bishop. The Holy Father is also the Bishop of Rome, so he is only responsible for that diocese.
There were some bishops who did not cooperate with local authorities, and I do not condone that. But, the Vatican is limited in what it can do. The local bishop is pretty much autonomous when it comes to running his diocese.
Also, just because you haven't heard of the Protestant sexual abuse cases, doesn't mean they haven't happened. Read this article by Philip Jenkins, a protestant professor, from 2002 :
http://www.zenit.org/article-3922?l=english
Key paragraph:
"Literally every denomination and faith tradition has its share of abuse cases, and some of the worst involve non-Catholics. Every mainline Protestant denomination has had scandals aplenty, as have Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah´s Witnesses, Jews, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas -- and the list goes on. One Canadian Anglican (Episcopal) diocese is currently on the verge of bankruptcy as a result of massive lawsuits caused by decades of systematic abuse, yet the Anglican church does not demand celibacy of its clergy."
As far as the countries you mentioned go, it is the protestant ones, like Britain, Germany, Sweden, Finland, and Norway that are the most socialistic and liberal in Europe. France, by the way, rejected the Catholic Church over 200 years ago, violently. Maybe you've heard of The Terror?
Finally, see my comment to Doctor Wrong, below, for my rebuttal to the false claim that Catholics "pray to" Our Lady, or the saints.
Evanston2| 1.27.11 @ 1:33PM
Nick, With respect, the "straw men" arguments you allege are not at all what I have said. #1: I've never said that Rome centrally micro-manages everything. I did say that your church uses the confessional and sovereignty claims to cover sins. This is endemic, from the parish to the diocese to the Vatican. You, yourself, are creating the straw man here so you can knock it down. The truth is that the cover-ups conducted by locals are consistent throughout the Roman church: they reflect the same patterns of thought and hide behind the same theology. It is pathetic (yes, with respect, pathetic) that you bring up trivia like statues and fish fries when the "Holy See" has either negligently not seen, or even worse has outright contributed to the cover-up of heinous deeds for decades. You say the Vatican can't do anything? For starters, are you saying they can't de-frock anyone, they can't deny the Eucharist to anyone? Wow. Applications for "sainthood" like that of JPII are evidently worth investigating, and Romanists love telling others about how they are "one" church (unlike all those wrong-headed, schismatic denominations). But you are asserting here that Rome has no central control, that you can't govern themselves even regarding the most heinous of sins and breaches of trust committed in the Lord's name. Instead you have to look to The World to force any justice whatsoever??? THAT is damning. #2 Thank you for telling me what I already know about the Bishop of Rome. You're possibly confused by use of the term "Rome." I use it as is shorthand for Roman Catholic, as do many protestants, because the Eastern Orthodox amongst others rightly believe they are just as Catholic and have as much apostolic lineage/tradition (if you take stock in such) as Rome. I've never critiqued the role of the Pope here, nor (referring back to an earlier comment you made) have I ever used the word "Papist" or even heard it used by anyone outside of a movie. I've seen it in caricatures of protestants by people like you who think it's cute. Save your explanations regarding the Pope for the Anglicans joining you, since they're the ones with the smallest theological differences and are most likely to just object to the pre-eminence of your (so called) Holy Father since their Anglican bishops were/are all equals. In sum, my problem (and that of any Bible reader) is with the entire theology of Rome, not just 1 man dressed in a lousy costume in Italy. #3 You said "...just because you haven't heard of the Protestant sexual abuse cases." This is another straw man. On two occasions I said that when protestants have scandals they remove the offenders from the clergy. Put another way, our clergy (like all men, vows of celibacy or not) are fallible but we do not hide heinous sin on an institutional, international level. I do find it entertaining that in your "Key paragraph" Mr. Jenkins highlights an Episcopal cover-up. The Anglican polity mirrors that of Rome (excluding the Vatican) and you get similar results. #4 You agree that what you call "socialistic and liberal" countries in Europe are more prosperous than those where Rome has dominated, but that doesn't give you pause? No, evidently not at all. That hundreds or thousands of years of its dominance reap crap that's even worse than in functionally atheistic countries? (And lets not pretend for a second that Rome doesn't embrace socialistic and liberal policies, because it does. That's why Romanists are still welcome on SCOTUS but no evangelical protestant would ever make it past the Dems) The Terror replaced a state religion with a religion of the state. Someone, somewhere said "Live by the sword, die by the sword." #5 Oh, I love this one. Word games about what constitutes worship and prayer! My family is traditionally Roman. I've been to many weddings where the couple prays to and offers flowers to Mary. Genuflecting before her statue and that of others on pilgrimages. The Hail Mary itself includes a request you are making of Mary (as you say in your response to the gent you call "Doctor Wrong" you ask Mary to "Pray for us sinners..."). My great Aunt, a nun, pays homage to Mary routinely. Gotta have a grotto. But none of that is worship, or prayer, is it? Because you say so. In the Bible people get on their knees before angels and the apostles and are immediately told to stand because only God is to be worshiped. Prayers are never offered to anyone other than God (notably, Jesus does allow personal worship of Himself and as the Angel of the Lord). You claim to be a Bible thumper but just as there are Cafeteria Catholics, perhaps you are a Cafeteria Bible Thumper? Prefer to refer to the Bible, except when it contradicts Rome, then put your traditions of men above the Word of God. The bottom line is that God defines what constitutes "worship" or "prayer" -- not you. You may find this excerpt from a Catholic forum pertinent: http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=39706
"The roses are a form of prayer; at the very end of the Mass we prayed in front of a statue of the Blessed Mother, asking the Holy Family to guide our newly formed family."
I'll repeat this a third time so perhaps it'll take: Roman Catholicism = what Roman Catholics actually believe and do. To point to a code (like the Catechism, though we both know that is just a starting point in a labyrinth of legalistic license) that people either never learn or choose to forget makes Romanism as hollow and ritualistic as people like yours truly allege. To go way back to my original point, to say "I see" the light when you don't is truly the blind leading the blind. Anglicans fleeing to Rome for light are exactly that. I do wish to sincerely thank you, again, for sticking with this discussion, such as it is. It also bears repeating that my comments here are aimed at the compatibility of Anglicanism and Rome -- 2 peas in a pod. I don't pretend for a second that I'll change anyone's religious affiliation. Honest and contrite discussion about God and His Glory is as personal as it gets, and online discussions (though stimulating) are hardly suitable. As you say, "God bless!"
Nick| 1.27.11 @ 8:30PM
Evanston2,
That sure is a lot of words, not to say very much, and repeat yourself.
I find it amusing that you berate me for using straw men, which I did not do, and then resume putting up the same. I did not write that "the Vatican can't do anything." Do you have a problem with reading comprehension? Go back and look at what I wrote.
Priests have been "de-frocked" over the decades for these crimes. It is a legal process that, again, begins with priest's bishop, at the diocesan level. Refusing someone the Body and Blood of Christ is an act of excommunication.
You wrote, "Real Christians remove such ministers, their exception proves how Rome really rules."
And, " Rome did not cooperate with authorities [...]."
Your implication is clear: The Vatican should have known about, and removed priests, involved in sexual misconduct. Also, which authorities did the Vatican refuse to cooperate with?
It is you, who is confused. You have used the word "Roamanism" to refer to Roman Catholics. You know using "Rome" is refering to the Vatican, or the Holy See, which you have also used. I was only pointing out the Holy Father has two functions as the Successor of Saint Peter.
You must not have read Mr. Jenkins article, huh? You have also totally ignored this sentence in the paragraph I quoted: "Every mainline Protestant denomination has had scandals aplenty, as have Pentecostals, Mormons, Jehovah´s Witnesses, Jews, Buddhists, Hare Krishnas [...]." (emphasis mine.)
I stand by my original point, namely ALL DENOMINATIONS have this problem. The Roman Catholic Church is not unique when it comes to ministers (or teachers, or any other profession that deals with children) committing sexual misconduct. I have a Protestant professor to back up my claims. Who do you have?
No, I don't agree that the socialist, liberal, Protestant countries are more prosperous. But, for the sake of argument, let's say they are. To equate that with their dominant religious denomination is a cause and effect you can never prove. Besides, it is silly.
Why are you so down on Christian Civilization? The United States of America is a product of the long, painful history of the Catholic Church civilizing the remnants of the Roman Empire.
If you had read more of those quotes from the Catholic Answers forum, you would have learned that these are local customs, not Church teaching. And, that there is a debate amongst Catholics as to the appropriateness of these practices. Again, some local bishops allow them, while others do not.
Whether it is allowed, or not, it is not worshiping Mary. That is your false interpretation. Don't you ask family and friends to pray for you? If a friend asks you to pray for them, do you refuse? That is all we are doing when we "pray" to Mary, and all the saints, asking them to pray for our intentions.
No Catholic genuflects to statues of Mary, or any other statue. If you have seen someone doing that, they were not taught correctly. Catholics only genuflect to Our Lord, Jesus Christ, truely present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity in the Eucharist. You can tell when He is present if the candles on the sides of the altar are lit.
When you see someone on a kneeler, under a statue and candles, in prayer, they are praying to the One, True God. Not the statue, nor to the saint that the statue represents.
Psalm 148 begins: "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!"
The Book of Revelation (5:8), "And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."
So, it is okay to "pray" to the angels, asking them to praise God; and in the Heavenly Jerusalem, the prayers of the saints are offered to Christ, the Lamb of God, like incense, according to the Scriptures.
Now, I will repeat myself. Your problems with the Roman Catholic Church are what you think are its teachings, not what it actually teaches. Your "Catholic Church" exists only in your mind, not in reality. It is not the One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic Church that I belong to, and love.
You've never mentioned to what denomination you do belong?
Nick| 1.27.11 @ 8:39PM
Oops! That should've been: "You've never mentioned to what denomination do you belong?
p.s. There is nothing the Catholic Church teaches that is contrary to the Scriptures.
Perhaps, you could tell me if you believe in the Holy Trinity in your brand of Christianity?
If so, where is the word "Trinity" in the Bible?
Nick| 1.27.11 @ 8:48PM
Oh, and one more thing,
God Bless!
Evanston2| 1.28.11 @ 12:12PM
Nick, We're definitely talking past each other. I say you're mis-interpreting me, you do likewise. I recommend you read the Sermon on the Mount which defines Christianity as what you actually believe and do: by this standard many Roman Catholics (in my personal experience -- unlike you, I don't know what % of Catholics get on their knees before statues and what their exact prayers are but you evidently do), the Roman Church itself (its (in-)action toward homos and pedophiles is merely the most visible result of belief in salvation by rite), and what you call "Christian civilization" (you mean those nations un-inspired by state churches like Anglicanism, Lutheranism, and yes -- Romanism?) is condemned. At least you and I generally agree on what is good, we just disagree about the actual behavior and beliefs of these groups. But for a change let's focus on your reference to Rev 5:14. The text definitely supports the notion that the saints in heaven pray to God. Very good. But that's not the position you're trying to support. You say it supports you praying, not to God, but to the saints. That it's OK for the saints to pray to God (and why wouldn't it be?) is immaterial. No, the text does not support your praying to the saints for anything. Your hermeneutics need work. If you want a text that actually addresses praying to the dead, go to Deut. 18:10-12. Or try 1 Sam 28 where Saul makes a request of Samuel. Samuel's response is that Saul is condemned because (v. 18) he "did not obey the voice of the Lord."
I belong to a non-denominational fundamentalist church. Definitely not Pentacostal and considering how Romanism relies on the Charisma of supersaints (and healing powers of relics and rituals) it's funny that you'd choose to bold that particular group. Like many so-called "Christians" they tend to seek His benefits but not Him, nor do they seek His voice in order to obey it. They seek after new visions and powers and guidance via mysterious "tongues." Obviously I am generalizing: just as it is possible to be a Christian and a Roman Catholic, this applies to anyone (see the "invisible church" per Augustine, etc.) regardless of affiliation since it is He who chooses His people. Again, I am grateful for your responses and wish you the best in your battle. As it was in both the OT and NT, the battle is within the visible church. I pray that you will battle for God's truths, battle for what matters to Him as we are told in His Word.
Nick| 1.28.11 @ 5:43PM
Evanston2,
Yes, I agree, we are talking past each other. But nomenclature is very important when talking about theology.
You must have missed the quotation marks I put around the word pray, when writing that we "pray" to Mary and the saints.
You seem to be under the impression that the word "pray" can only mean worshiping and praising God.That is not its only meaning. Look it up. It also means to make a petition. The word comes from the Latin precārī, to ask, to beg.
When you hear a Catholic say that he prayed to Our Lady for something, he only means that he was asking the Blessed Virgin to take his petitions to her Son, Jesus Christ. The same goes for the saints.
Back to the Book of Revelation. So, this means that the prayers of the saints in Heaven include the prayers of the living of this world, who asked the saints to bring them before God.
I asked, yesterday, don't you ask family and friends to pray for you and your intentions? Or, if asked by someone to pray for them, do you tell them no? You never answered.
Relics are a complicated subject. Are there Catholics who treat relics as magical charms? Yes, I'm sure there are. You must understand that chatechesis suffered greatly in the Catholic Church in '60s, '70s, '80s, and into the '90s. We are still trying to fix the problem.
The Coucil of Trent (1545-1563) in a decree (Sess. XXV) stated that "[...] in the invocation of saints, the veneration of relics, and the sacred use of images, every superstition shall be removed, all filthy lucre be abolished[...]." (emphasis mine)
Relics are meant to be a memorial to the saint, so that the Christain will remember the saint's virtuous life in Christ. The power to heal comes from God alone. When the woman touched Christ's garment, the power to heal came from Him, and Jesus said it was her faith that healed her.
Just as when Saint Peter and the Apostles would heal people. If one were to take literally the Scripture, "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people." (Acts 5:12,) one would have to believe that the Apostles were perfoming miracles by their own power.
Is a "non-denominational fundamentalist church" the same as a Bible-believing church? Do you have bishops and priests? When did the Christian Church reject Christ and apostatize? And, again, do you believe in the Holy Trinity? These are not rhetorical questions, I am truly interested.
Snarkyness aside, and I apologize if I offended you, I too, have enjoyed this discussion. I love sharing my faith with others. It gives me great joy, so thank you.
God Bless you and your family, Evanston2.
Evanston2| 1.30.11 @ 7:14PM
Nick, You haven't been offensive. Occasionally over-eager but at least you understand the importance of these issues. That said, I don't want to delve into an endless theological discussion since we both believe that the other guy isn't being totally accurate. Feel free to add anything you wish but I won't reply any more on this comment chain, though sadly we both know that reportage of another amazing act of apostasy is only a day away here on AmSpec and the Internet. Regarding the Charisma, obviously the Apostles were personally empowered and gifted. The Bible does not directly say that personal empowerment died off when they did, but on balance I believe its arguable that no person has what we would today call "miraculous" powers -- though prayer and many other normal, but nonetheless wonderful gifts are provided to us by the Spirit. The charismatic debate is not necessarily a cardinal doctrine that distorts Salvation (that is, the preaching of another Gospel per Gal 1:8). Regarding church governance, we do not use the same high-sounding titles as Orthodox, Rome, Anglicans etc. use (e.g., we prefer "Elder" for Bishop) but we follow the functional commands provided by Paul and Christ (Matt 18, for example) regarding governance and discipline. These are a result of (and reveal) one's hermeneutic, but again are not necessarily linked to cardinal doctrines. Finally, you'd recognize in our Constitution classic reformed theology. Proper understanding of God as He has revealed Himself to us in the Bible, which is quite obviously Trinitarian. Also Biblical understanding of the nature of man, which is (with the exception of Christ) 100% fallen, all (including Mary and supersaints -- I call them that because strictly speaking, all who are saved are saints) fall short and everyone must be saved by Christ's atoning work on the cross. This is the Gospel, and those who reject it are apostates. Obviously I'm hinting at limitations that Romanism, depending on your "take", may reject. If you want to write something here I'll definitely read it but I've got other priorities to deal with. So you may see me write under the moniker Evanston2 here or at the Belmont Club or at GetReligion.org or at NRO or the Weekly Standard on 2 topics: military (retired, USMC) and religion. As we said in the Corps, "Out, here."
Nick| 1.31.11 @ 12:38AM
Evanston2,
Thank you for your continued responses. I appreciate it, very much.
I only brought up the offices of bishop and priest, and the Holy Trinity, to make the point that there are concepts and practices in the New Testament Scriptures that are not fully explained, in writing. They would not be fully explained, or more accurately more fully explained, in writing, until the second and third generations of Christians.
There are three offices mentioned in the Acts of the Apostles and in the Epistles: Bishop - Episcopos, Priest - Presbuteros, and Deacon - Diakonos. There is only a hint of what the duties of these offices entailed, in the Scriptures.
But, as Saint Paul stated in his second letter to the Thessalonians: "Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle." Chapter 2, Verse 15. (emphasis mine)
You also state that God, as revealed to us in the Bible, is "obiviously Trinitarian." It wasn't obvious in the first and second centuries A.D., and centuries thereafter. Many heresies spead amongst Christians about the true nature of God.
The Acts of the Apostles and the Epistles only scratch the surface of what the early Christian Church was like. It is in the Traditions that were spoken, and only written down later by the disciples of the Apostles, that you can begin to understand how the early Church functioned.
I encourage you to read the early Church Fathers like Saints Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp, Clement of Rome, and Irenaeus. You will find them very instructive and eye opening.
I find it curious that you did not answer whether or not you pray for loved ones, or ask them to pray for your intentions. Hmmm.
I spent 4 years in the Army and am a veteran of Operation Desert Shield/Storm, by the way. I hope we can converse again, Evanston2.
God Bless, and Semper Fi!
Nick| 1.31.11 @ 12:49AM
Oh...and read the Didache, the oldest Christian writing outside the New Testament.
Highlander 747| 1.24.11 @ 11:49AM
Hear! Hear! I was raised in the Episcopal Church in Massachusetts, and well I guess the church left me before I left them. I have recently entertained worshipping in the Catholic Church and may sometime. But in the interim I soon will be relocating to South Carolina, where I eagerly await returning to a different, sane and responsible Episcopal Church.
SteveMotel| 1.24.11 @ 2:24PM
You'll find plenty of highlanders in South Carolina. I recommend you check out the Baptist Church for good preachin', music, and fellowship.
Purple Lips| 1.24.11 @ 3:26PM
and Sunday afternoon potlucks!
GregoryDA| 1.24.11 @ 7:32AM
Lovely.
Ragsdale is astonished about the way the world is changing now??? How about when there is a new heaven and a new earth? Jesus said:
“It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Rev.21:6-8
Sorry, ladies. You are sadly deceived.
Rev. Jesse Jackson| 1.24.11 @ 8:15AM
When it comes to homosexual marriage, liberals are as confused as a blind lesbian in a fish market.
Ted| 1.24.11 @ 9:07AM
I can only thank God that my mother did not live to see what became of her beloved Episcopal church. Lord have mercy.
Gran Torino| 1.24.11 @ 9:36AM
Sodomites and catamites have an impact on public policy out of proportion to their numbers.
Richard Baker| 1.24.11 @ 9:42AM
"God will not be mocked." Hope these folks have asbestos fire-suits in stock.
Doctor Right| 1.24.11 @ 10:07AM
Another freak-show from the Episcopal "Church"
......
"By their fruits, you shall know them"
(no pun intended).
Charles Martel| 1.24.11 @ 10:20AM
Schism is inevitable. The American Episcopalian structure is in enemy hands and cannot be retaken. Its leadership has enthusiastically embraced their own damnation. So be it.
Its assets, however, can be recovered: through its bankruptcy. When the pews are empty, so shall be the coffers. The perverts will become bored too when there is no one left to outrage, and they'll move on to the next diversion.
+++
NotALibertarian| 1.24.11 @ 10:21AM
All gay people want is for religious fanatics to leave them alone. And to put them in charge of their religion. And to perform marriage ceremonies for them. And to help them adopt children. And to force fellow-soldiers to be their roomies. And to let them use the public education system to teach every young child in America that homosexuality is perfectly normal, without any annoying stats on elevated depression/suicide/neurosis rates.
Purple Lips| 1.24.11 @ 3:29PM
Oscar Wilde, was a practicing homosexual most of his life had to flee his native England because of his sexual preferences. However, he did make a deathbed conversion to the Mother Church. May he rest in peace.
Gretchen| 1.24.11 @ 4:09PM
Purple Lips --A few corrections:
Wilde was Irish -- born in Dublin (which was still part of Great Britain) in 1854, he is, correctly, considered one of the great writers in the English Language.
After serving two years imprisonment at hard labor for gross indecency with other men, (homosexuality was illegal at the time in Great Britain) he died, impovrished, in Paris in 1900 at age 46.
Gretchen| 1.24.11 @ 4:16PM
Continued:
Homosexuaity in was legalized in England and Wales, following publication of the Wolfenden Report in 1967.
Nick| 1.24.11 @ 6:15PM
"(homosexuality was illegal at the time in Great Britain)"
Let's hear it for the good old days!
mames| 1.24.11 @ 10:26AM
Most of all there is a lack of honesty and integrity among the Episcopals. These decievers don't even have the decency to admit that they detest the Bible and the faith in Christ it offers. Instead they hijack orthodox theological language and rewrite their meanings to reflect a non Christian world view in "christian packaging". Wolves in sheep clothing. The Anglicans would do well to completely disassociate themselves and then continue to offer the Law and Gospel of Christ to these lost souls. True they are spitting in the face of the orthodox (and Christ) but we are big enough and Christ fortified enough to respond in strong love.
Bayou Babe| 1.24.11 @ 10:26AM
My husband and I are “cradle” Episcopalians and our families have been Episcopalian for many generations. Thankfully, our current diocesan bishop is what is commonly called a Windsor Bishop, but will retire in 2012. What will happen to the diocese after that and what our response will be, I just don’t know.
My parish, in the not too distant past, was very dynamic. Today, those in procession outnumber those in the pews. Pathetic…
PJ| 1.24.11 @ 11:44AM
The Catholic Church has established an American Ordinariate similar to the one in Britain for Anglican/Episcopal members who wish to retain their liturgical traditions. See article:http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/archbishop-wuerl-named-us-contact-for-anglican-groups-seeking-to-become-catholic/. You may want to look into this possibility & good luck to you!
Richard Baker| 1.24.11 @ 10:28AM
Why of course, that's all the homosexuals want, eh? Then by all means let them start their Fag Scouts, and homosexual churches (since they are religious fanatics regarding homosexuality), and all the rest and quit polluting the rest of society with your damnable activities. Perversion is still perversion. Maybe there's a reason that man has found these un-natural acts an abomination throughout history. Sick stuff.
Citizen Jerry| 1.24.11 @ 10:35AM
I grew up in this once-noble church, but had to flee for my soul's sake.
Heresy is all that's left of the Episcopal Church, and those few parishes that still recite the Nicene Creed believe not a word of it. Only one truth remains for them, an old adage that the road to hell is paved with bishops' skulls.
Gran Torino| 1.24.11 @ 1:02PM
Citizen Jerry,
I'm glad that you were smart enough to get out. I heard the old adage this way: "The road to hell is paved with the souls of the popes." If that is too strong for the Catholics, then you need to read some church history. Get your head out of the sand and follow Citizen Jerry's lead. Most popes were demon-possessed.
Nick| 1.24.11 @ 6:23PM
Gran Torino,
I have read Church history. Most Popes were loyal Prime Ministers to the King of Kings. They were true servants to the Most High God.
While some sinned more than others (we all sin, by the way,) none ever changed a doctrine or truth of Christian teaching.
Nice try, though.
Quartermaster| 1.24.11 @ 7:07PM
The list of doctrines added and changed is much too long to detail here. At this point, the Roman Catholic Church can only be considered a cult. It has a vague resemblance to the Christianity of the Early Church, but that's about as far as it gets.
I will, however, say this about the Roman Catholic Church, it has stuck to its doctrines fairly consistently, even when they contradict scripture. In that regard, they are to be commended.
They do desperately need to clean out the seminaries and disband the Jesuits.
Nick| 1.24.11 @ 7:52PM
Quartermaster,
Thanks for the commendation, I think?
I do not wish to get into a debate about the Truthfulness of the Catholic Church.
I will just leave you with a quote from Blessed John Henry Cardinal Newman, former Anglican vicar and Catholic convert, who will soon be Saint John Henry Newman:
"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant."
Please, immerse yourself in Blessed Cardinal Newman's writings.
God Bless!
Gran Torino| 1.24.11 @ 8:07PM
Nick,
Are you serious? Along with reading church history, you must read the Bible and the teachings of the King of Kings. You probably won't read it, but if you really want to be informed, just read Foxe's Book of Martyrs, or Dave Hunt's book, "A Woman Rides the Beast". Nick, Nick! Millions died during the "Holy" Inquisition!!! Are you serious? It would take me a month to go over how many ways the Roman Catholic Church has deviated from New Testament teachings! Are you serious?
Nick| 1.24.11 @ 8:37PM
Gran Torino,
Yes, I am serious. I am a proud Roman Catholic.
You state that I "must read the Bible and the teachings of the King of Kings" and then you list two books written by mere mortals. Why are you following the teachings of men?
Are the Protestant Inquisitions included in your "Holy" Inquisitions? Also, millions were not killed as a result of the inquisitions. That is a lie. Even the BBC, no friend of the Catholic Church, said so in the 1994 documentary The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition.
As I implored Quatermaster, above, please read the writings of Blessed John Henry Newman. And, the Early Church Fathers.
God Bless!
p.s. I try to read the Scriptures as often as I can. Unfortunately, I fail to read them as often as I should. I'm working on it though.
Clint| 1.24.11 @ 8:52PM
"Using numbers that are known, scholars have been able to surmise that approximately 2,000 people died in the Medieval Inquisition. (1231-1400 AD) "
"By the mid 16th century, Spain was the wealthiest and most powerful country in Europe. Europe's Protestant areas, including the Netherlands, northern Germany, and England, may not have been as militarily mighty, but they did have a potent new weapon: the printing press. Although the Spanish defeated Protestants on the battlefield, they would lose the propaganda war. These were the years when the famous "Black Legend" of Spain was forged. The "The Black Legend," did not arise until after the Protestant defeat at the Battle of Muhlberg at the hands of Ferdinand's grandson, the Emperor Charles V. A fierce propaganda campaign ensued. Two important Protestant publications in it were John Foxe's Book of Martyrs (1554) and a leaflet published in 1567 penned by a supposed Inquisition victim named Montanus."
"According to public news reports the book's editor, Prof. Agostino Borromeo, stated that about 125,000 persons were investigated by the Spanish Inquisition, of which 1.8% were executed (2,250 people)."
Clint| 1.24.11 @ 8:56PM
"In England and Ireland, Reformers engaged in their own ruthless inquisitions and executions. Conservative estimates indicate that thousands of English and Irish Catholics were put to death—many by being hanged, drawn, and quartered—for practicing the Catholic faith and refusing to become Protestant."
Doctor Right| 1.25.11 @ 9:39AM
Sorry, but you're clearly deluded.
The mere EXISTENCE of a Papacy is a 180-degree "diversion" from Christian doctrine.
SuffolkVA| 1.24.11 @ 11:24AM
What good is a church and what validity can it have when it becomes a narcissistic expression of pop cultural temporal desires? Homosexuality and abortion are non negotiable. They are not part of God's plan and are unnatural. It's really that simple. It is no accident that churches like this are disappearing. They serve no real purpose.
Oldefarte| 1.24.11 @ 1:09PM
God created all human beings with the concept of FREE WILL, and with such, are allowed to do anything that they so choose to in earthly life; and upon their death, they will........BURN IN HADES FOR THEIR IMMORALITY!!!!!!!!!
Miss G| 1.24.11 @ 1:32PM
Judge not, lest you be judged.
Gran Torino| 1.24.11 @ 2:26PM
Dear Miss G,
Yes, Jesus said, "Judge not, lest you be judged." However, He wasn't talking about these kinds of things. The Apostle Paul, for example, told the Corinthians in Chapter 5 that they had been negligent to not judge a certain situation where a man was living with his father's wife. In that same chapter he stated that "a little leaven leavens the whole lump." In verse 8 he says that as Christians, "We should not keep company with sexually immoral people." In verse 12, he asks the question, "Do you not judge those who are inside of Christ's church?" (Meaning that that would be the correct thing to do if you take everything in it's context.) In verse 13 he says, "But those who are outside of God's church, He will judge. Therefore, put away from yourselves the evil person."
Why does God want us to judge sin? To keep His church clean and to shame the sinner so that he or she will repent!
Oldefarte| 1.24.11 @ 3:23PM
Miss G, I am not judging........BUT GOD DOES[AND WILL DO SO ON YOUR JUDGEMENT DAY]!!!!
Evanston2| 1.24.11 @ 7:33PM
Miss G, I do not agree with Oldefarte, but how do you know he is "judging?" Isn't your allegation, itself, a judgment? At least in the limited and nonsensical sense that you are applying the word? Why don't you actually read the Bible for a change instead of memorizing a phrase? Try Luke 6:37-42 for starters, so you know that our Lord was instructing us on how to judge properly. We are to be "fruit inspectors" (see 6:43-45 as well as many other OT and NT passages) regarding what people produce but not their ultimate end. This is where Oldefarte would be better off holding his peace.
james wilson| 1.24.11 @ 1:35PM
There is no no better example that endowments are counterproductive. Subsidized atheist priests sermonize to each other and their empty pews.
Jacob Morgan| 1.24.11 @ 1:58PM
The Anglican church put the king at the head of the church. The American church put what at its head? Ultimately it put the zeitgeist at its head, and this is what happens.
My wife and I left the Episcopal church in late 2006 and entered the Catholic Church this last Easter--the best thing we ever did. Just wish we had done it a few years earlier.
Used to a lot of Evangelicals and other more-serious Christians would take an interest in early church history and choose the Anglican church as the easier of the three apostolic churches. Maybe this is just God's way of taking that choice off the table.
PJ| 1.24.11 @ 2:56PM
"Maybe this is just God's way of taking that choice off the table." I agree wholeheartedly!
I believe we will see the reunification of Rome & all of the Orthodox Churches during this century.
David T| 1.24.11 @ 4:26PM
Yes, and I think sooner in this century than later
Doctor Right| 1.24.11 @ 5:04PM
And what will that prove?
Nick| 1.24.11 @ 6:27PM
It will prove that you are Doctor Wrong, Pope Bigot I! Ha-ha!
Doctor Right| 1.25.11 @ 9:42AM
Your slavish devotion to false doctrine is highly amusing.
Now say 10 "Hail Mary's" to the Queen of the Universe (all the while NOT "praying" to Mary), and celebrate the Immaculate Conception with some completely un-pagan Rosary Beads. When finished, pray to some idols and statues of dead people that you Catholics call "Saints", all the while ignoring the fact that the word "Saints" in the Bible referred to ALL believing Christians.
Catholicism is so wrought with Contradictions that someone oughta' write a book. Oh wait...they have...Lot's in fact!
Nick| 1.25.11 @ 3:55PM
Pope Bigot I,
How can someone be so consistently wrong all the time? I guess it comes easy for someone who slavishly believes everything written in the New York Times, huh? How's your girlfriend, Maureen Dowd?
You have, yet again, libeled Catholics with your lies. As a former Catholic, you know we do not pray to idols or statues (that's against the First Commandment.) But, bearing false witness against your neighbor is clearly breaking the Eighth Commandment.
Gee, what other Commandments do you violate with such ease, Doctor Wrong?
You are also lying about the Hail Mary. It is a prayer asking the Our Lady to pray for us. Have you forgotten the words? Let me refresh your memory:
Hail Mary, full of Grace, the Lord is with Thee. (Luke 1:28)
Blessed are thou amongst women, and Blessed is the Fruit of thy womb, Jesus. (Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now, and at the hour of our death.
Ooooo! What awful, evil words. They must have come straight from Satan, huh?
Nick| 1.24.11 @ 6:36PM
Welcome home, to you and your wife, Mr. Morgan.
God Bless!
L. Banks| 1.24.11 @ 2:57PM
There has been an attack on religion and all other institutions in particular on morality since the late 60's and early 70's. The idea being to undermine every institution - political, economic, and in particular religions. This is the last bastion of hope because if you can undermine God, you have won. We are now seeing the culminination of this work as "supposed" religious who may well be plants to destroy the faith espouse all manner of evil. I want to make it clear here, people are not evil, but the acts they perform or espouse are evil.
Many have given up the fight and gone along with these agents of evil. Many are seeing their children embrace these lies that it is alright and that anyone who does not believe it is not facing reality. If your reality is this world, they are right, but most of us believe in a God who has given us a set of laws to follow and an account of the struggles and the prepartion of the people in the Old Testament and then the glorious story of pure "Love" in the New Testament.
We know what happened to many places in this history who did not observe these laws and tried to dictate to God what they think should be done. This is where we stand today - those who obey the laws of God and those who defy them and the God who made them. This is no different from the beginning of our creation. It is time to put our faith in action and pray for all the Christain Churches in this nation and ask God's protection and direction for all of us.
Robert Pinkerton| 1.24.11 @ 3:57PM
Although I am hardly Episcopalian, my late second fiancee and her parents were; and so were my Dad's sister and her husband. Cynthia Anne, my late second fiancee told me she and her parents were part of the "... smells and bells mob, high as the sky. We make room at our table for the wildest-thinking heterodoxy this side of the boundary of heresy." I know the devolution whereof this article speaks, would have turned her stomach, those of her parents, and those of my cousins.
Evanston2| 1.24.11 @ 8:21PM
Robert, the phrase "smells and bells" definitely captures the difference between those whose faith is founded in sensation versus those whose faith has intellectual content (that is, actual belief). Thank you for sharing all that. I believe it applies to the Orthodox churches as well, though I certainly do not have an exhaustive knowledge of their rites and how much actual teaching they do. Rome runs the gamut in its practices, depending on location, day, and time but its not surprising that Anglicans find the jump easy. Perhaps if they liked long, long beards they'd give the Orthodox a chance?
Clint| 1.24.11 @ 9:15PM
" Incense was common in New Testament times. Turning to the New Testament itself we find these references:
Matthew 2:11- The Wise Men offered Jesus at His birth three things: Gold (befitting a king), Frankincense- a type of incense common in the Middle East at that time (befitting a god), and Myrrh- a type of ointment which may be a reference to the Crucifixion or to healing. Since Moses was commanded by God to offer incense as a form of prayer and worship (Exodus 25:6, 30:1, 7-8), and since Matthew's audience was primarily Jewish Christians living in Antioch, the writer of this gospel includes the story of the Magi to show that Christ is to be worshipped as God just as the God of Moses was to be worshipped with incense. Yet, whatever one may believe about the meaning of these gifts, it is clear that at the birth of Jesus incense was offered to Him as a form of worship."
Acts 3:1- In the book of Acts we are told the story of the healing of the lame man at the Temple through the hands of St. Peter and St. John. We are also told in the same verse that just before this happened, St. Peter and St. John were on their way "to the Temple at the Hour of Prayer" (this was the ninth hour or 3 PM). This "Hour of Prayer" is the same thing as the "Hour of Incense" spoken of in Luke 1:9-11 because incense was used at these hours just as God had commanded Moses, to show forth both prayer and worship."
Grumpy| 1.24.11 @ 10:27PM
I would rather be the member of a church that is 500 years behind the times and happily unconcerned with its 'backwardness', than one that is fifteen minutes behind the times and struggling frantically to catch up.
scythe| 1.25.11 @ 9:17AM
"Bishop Shaw's cathedral wedding for two prominent lesbian priests will likely accelerate that trend." Notice the language people? Two women are called PRIESTS. Contemplate the fact that much victory has been won, by the left, by CONTROLLING the LANGUAGE. Women are NOT priests. It doesn't matter if one of them has assumed the role of a MAN in the relationship. The proper term for a woman in this position is a PRIESTESS. In other words, the same term which was used in PAGAN religions. Therefore, if a woman cannot be a PRIEST, and is therefore a PRIESTESS, a term which was strictly reserved for those who practiced a PAGAN religion, how therefore can "she" be a practitioner of Christianity? The whole bizarro scenario is another deviant mind f*@!, brought to you by the leftwing cultural warriors straight from the playbook of Antonio Gramsci. And we wonder why we are losing? Try calling something by its rightful name and stick to it. Don't allow anyone to "rename" anything. That is the first step towards cultural oblivion.
MSriver| 1.27.11 @ 3:44AM
“Schism”? Too bad. The two schools of thought therefore continue to grind away to reject the other’s “sins”. Because of the severity of this, each vantage point feels duly justified in complete separation. Well, is it time for a church funeral yet and thereby sever for yourself a “new lump” elsewhere, or would you consider one more bit of reasoning?
Before leaving, allow me to the space of your most reasonable frame of mind. For in doing so, I would hope to highlight one other thought for the Christian and hand over to you a possible plus.
You recall the biblical admonition, “if we would judge ourselves, we would not come under the condemnation of the world” (ICor11:31) sets in place the healthy spiritual environment one allows to be governed by. Still with me? For regardless of the text you have a habit of employing to that advice from the God of love, the two schools of thought are quite likely still present.
At some point we send ourselves into understanding the things of God in the best, most undiluted manner possible. We trust the Lord to invigorate that understanding within us to attend to the very things that please Him, or not. But now, collectively we direct “affection”, “for all”(Ph.1:8) His people but, we begin to see a fork in that old road, don’t we? For some, the entreat upon which to discern is literal, for some cognitive; A rather unhealthy extent of the natural laws of reason which in some cases the Apostle Paul did use for Christian instruction, sparingly (ICor7:2,11:14). But who is that that would reach only (transgress) for the cognitive? Especially when those decisions are of church decorum of conduct? For if a deliberate and continual effort is made to do what seems right in one’s own eyes for whatever the reason, unknowingly grants “the god of this world” access to blind oneself. Why would we want to grant any measure of a chance to him, our mortal foe? And how deep, and how deceptive is that blindness. Do you know how to spot the signs of being tripped up in your best of logic. One of the most subtle (by way of excusing) yet disastrous for so many is isolation theology, which is just another skill developed to “wrest the scriptures” (IIPet3:16). If it were not possible, He would not have warned us. Lord help us to understand.
If we find we are continually responding to only the laws of nature without the applicable mixture of faith in all His admonitions, we do so heartily, so easily, throw off and forfeit any shred of a healthy self-examination. No, much worse, we unknowingly delve deeper into self-deception, when that matures, we spring wide the gate to “wrest” our study in the Word to full-blown self-exaltation, a mark left unchecked and unattended results in a spot left on one’s faith.
Anyone who has inwardly spent time considering the likelihood of the traditional outlook as being less than applicable, outdated and in need of change isn’t necessarily cause to depart from so quickly. God knows the heart. And His word is most positively for us today. For as it says of our Lord while He was on earth “in all points tempted” just as we are, “yet without sin”. As far as we are concerned, an impossible proposition on our own. But if honest with themselves that just maybe these things are so, the “power” granted since the book of Acts, awaits those who “seek and “ask”. “Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord”(Zac4:6).
Adidas | 8.11.11 @ 4:52AM
is good
العاب | 4.11.12 @ 3:46PM
Wilde was Irish -- born in Dublin (which was still part of Great Britain) in 1854, he is, correctly, considered one of the great writers in the English Language