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Another Perspective
Thank God These People Are on the Other Side of the World
Reflections on the assassination of Salman Taseer.
Just curious, but is anybody paying attention to what just happened in Pakistan? It’s dribbled out in bits and pieces, but I don’t recall anyone putting the whole picture in perspective.
Here’s what’s happened. More than a year ago, Asia Bibi, a 45-year-old mother of five, was working in the fields in the Punjab province when some of the Muslim women working alongside her asked her to fetch water. When she returned, several women said they would not accept it because she was a Christian and therefore “unclean.” Insults were exchanged and in the process Bibi made some insulting remarks about the Koran and Islam.
The incident blew over at first, but word spread through the town and a few days later Bibi was being pursued by a Muslim mob. The police intervened and rescued her but felt obliged to satisfy the mob’s bloodlust so they charged Bibi with blasphemy. This is a capital offense under a 1979 law. Bibi was held in solitary confinement for more a year until she was finally put on trial in October. She was convicted in the provincial court and sentenced to die on November 9.
By now the case was drawing international attention. Christian groups began to protest and Pope Benedict XVI appealed for clemency, complaining that Christians in Pakistan are “often victims of violence and discrimination.” Other minority groups in Pakistan began calling for the repeal of the blasphemy law, saying it was used to persecute all minorities. The execution was postponed. Then in mid-November, Salman Taseer, the governor of Punjab and apparently a decent man, called for issuing a pardon and said that blasphemy should not be punishable by death. In late November, an aide to President Asif Ali Zardari put out word that a pardon would be forthcoming. All the while, Bibi remained in jail.
So on last Tuesday, Governor Taseer, the man who had spoken up for softening the law, was assassinated by one of his own guards. The killer, one Malik Mumtaz Hussain Qadri, said that Taseer had committed blasphemy by siding with Bibi. Qadri was known for his extreme views and acted alone, but none of the governor’s other guards seemed to make any attempt to stop him. Yesterday when Qadri appeared in court, he was mobbed by a throng of admirers who garlanded him with flowers. Meanwhile, Taseer’s family couldn’t find a Muslim cleric to preside over his funeral.
SO THERE YOU have it. An incident that might take place on a playground in this country becomes an international incident in Pakistan with one of the highest public officials in the land assassinated while the crowds cheer.
Press coverage has been typically boring and mealy-mouthed. The Voice of America found the whole thing emblematic of class conflict:
Political power in Pakistan has usually rested with an educated, liberal, and often wealthy elite — at least when the country was not under military rule. With his push to roll back the country’s blasphemy laws, Punjab Governor Salman Taseer epitomized what radicals view as an alarming secular drift in Pakistan.
Lisa Curtis, of the Heritage Foundation, of all places, ascribed the incident to a kind of post-traumatic stress syndrome:
“It’s been events over the past 30 years, like the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan, the Islamization policies of General Zia ul-Haq during the 1980s, which has really strengthened the Islamist forces and the more puritanical sects in Pakistan over the more traditional and moderate Sunni sects.”
Ravi Agrawal, reporting for CNN, explains it all as a reaction to colonialism.
[Taseer’s] political thoughts were forged at his English-style high school in posh Lahore, and then furthered in his time studying accounting in England. Taseer lived and died a Muslim. But he was also modern, with western views on law and democracy. And it was those views that clashed with a country that has increasingly identified itself as Islamic, shedding the anglicized traditions of its colonized past.
Sounds like he deserved to die to me.
Here’s an alternative explanation to the story. These people are crazy. They live in a world that most Europeans left behind when Hieronymus Bosch hung up his paintbrushes — a world that most contemporary American leave behind somewhere around first grade. I remember well the panic we all felt that year trying to escape some particularly unpopular girl’s “cooties.” After another year, however, the terror subsided. We began to lead rational lives. Not so in the great Islamic Republic. The phobias, irrational fears, superstitions, and delusions that most cultures would ascribe to madness are part of daily life. The place is a lunatic asylum. Thank god they live on the other side of the world. But of course, as 9/11 showed, that’s not really true anymore. And they do have a nuclear weapon, too — think of that.
We are not to blame for Pakistan. As Iraqis have gone on killing each other for the last five years, it was always possible to say that we set the ball rolling by invading in the first place. But Pakistan is sui generis. These people are not rejecting colonialism, they are rejecting civilization. Sunnis kill Shi’ia, Shi’ia kill Sunnis, and Sunnis and Shi’ia combine to kill Suffi. Then they all get together and murder Christians or someone who can speak English or whoever else happens to be at hand. Me and my cousin against the world.
I think we should finish whatever the hell it is we are doing in Afghanistan but then get the hell out. Forget about this “nation-building.” These people are incapable of holding a wedding or a funeral without somebody blowing himself up and taking half the crowd with him. Maybe in some other century we can sit down and talk about a peaceful future. For now, I say let them broil in their own inferno.
CORRECTION. The law under which Asia Bibi was charged with blasphemy dates back not to British rule, as reader Dr. Terence Tastard informed us, but to 1979, “and the decision by President Zia Al-Haq to court Islamist support by instituting Sharia law into Pakistan’s legal system.”
Letter to the Editor View all comments (348) | Leave a comment
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Vaemar| 1.7.11 @ 6:27AM
Unfortunately, as Brecht said, you can leave politics alone but politics won't leave you alone. Instead of allowing illegals to flood into the US, we should be offering this unfortunate woman asylum, and, if necessary, as a matter of national honour and solidarity with Christendon and civilization against pagan barbarism, rescuing her with armed force. It would be the best policy in our own ling-term interests, too.
David Thompson| 1.7.11 @ 11:53AM
We SHOULD offer asylum to any civilized person who wants to escape the insanity that is Islamization.
But there's not enough room for the ones who are genuinely civilized, and we can't separate those from the radicals who would come with their bombs, guns, and knives.
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 5:47PM
Dear David:
there is enough room to remove those that are genuinely civilized there, because they are as numerous as the Righteous in Sodom.
DG in GA| 1.8.11 @ 11:41AM
I find it interesting that we don't offer asylum to this woman (assuming we could get her out of the country, which is unlikely) but we'll let every Muslim in the world, regardless of their hatred of our country, to live here and do pretty much whatever they want as long as we don't catch them (see Dearbornistan, MI.)
Martin Owens| 1.10.11 @ 10:20AM
Who's WE? Dunno about YOU, brother, but I'm
in debt up to my eyeballs paying for a century of other people's grand visions and noble notions. My kids and grandkids too.
Do the "moderate Muslims" ( wherever and whoever they are) in fact have a civilization?
Then let THEM pay for its upkeep and defense!
Alan Brooks| 1.10.11 @ 10:08AM
Their Madrassas are less expensive and probably a little better than our schools.
Brian Mc| 1.7.11 @ 6:29AM
I will never forget when the towers came down and Fox went to reports from the Middle East that showed thousands cheering in the streets. I knew right then who the enemy was; a religion that those who practice it are (not only) willing to die, but to kill for because it's all for the greater good. Guilty or innocent doesn't matter, since it is all for Allah and his prophet. This is just one more nauseating example of what "submission" will get you, in the long run. Best to be seen bowing your forehead to the ground than wake up dead. What an insipid life these idiots must lead.
KyMouse| 1.7.11 @ 9:02AM
I remember, Brian, even though networks quickly yanked news footage of the so-called Palestinians dancing in the street and handing out candy to children. Israelis mourned for our loss; the "Palestinians" celebrated it.
Right after 9/11, I bought a tabloid-sized booklet about the event, and it included a full-page photo of those celebrants. Big smiles on their faces. I'm so glad I have that booklet as a reminder -- every anniversary of 9/11, I look at it again.
Eric Cartman| 1.7.11 @ 10:45AM
I've been looking for one word to capture the essence of these people: Scummy animals. That's two. Okay, I've been looking for two words . . .
Carl| 1.8.11 @ 9:18AM
Brian Mc, you are spot on. I felt the exact same way when I saw those pictures of people celebrating in the Middle East. Our enemies stood bold and cheered our death.
carnot| 1.9.11 @ 7:04PM
Middle East? How about the reports of cheering going on in certain quarters in Fairfax, VA....say...oh...I don't know....near Bailey's Crossroads?
post*tenebras*lux| 1.8.11 @ 12:38PM
Brian, As I remember, President Bush said he wanted to take the fight to THEM instead of them bringing it over here. Now we have a so called President of the United States who is a weak mealy mouth and is letting the stealth JIHAD take place within our own borders. Time to get them out while we still have borders.
Booger| 1.7.11 @ 6:33AM
The other side of the world? Ever met a New York City taxi driver? Seriously, they are here, and they are being welcomed with open arms by the current administration. Check out the "Islamic schools" and mosques in Virginia which were home to the 9/11 attackers and are still open for business. Jihad, coming soon to a neighborhood near you.
SonOfSam| 1.7.11 @ 8:51AM
Other side of the world....yes, that's where the architect of the 911 "Cordoba Victory Over the Infidels" mosque has been busy gathering funds. On OUR dime.
These jihadist scum have declared war on us. We need to start taking them seriously, and helping them to meet Allah ASAP, and cash in their "72 virgins" coupon
Wandpiper| 1.7.11 @ 4:57PM
Son of Sam - it is NOT up to us to judge these people. God will do that. However, we should make every effort to hurry up their appointment!
- just think of their great disappointment when they arrive and find that there is neither an oasis nor 72 virgins!
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 5:48PM
No, Wandpiper, it is 72 year old virgins!
Wonder Valley| 1.7.11 @ 8:31PM
And they all look like Pelosi or Barney Frank!
Carl| 1.8.11 @ 9:20AM
There's a visual!
victor| 1.8.11 @ 10:37AM
Puhleaaaase!
I haven't had breakfast yet.
dlg1956| 1.9.11 @ 9:11PM
Your all wrong....the 72 virgins will look like Helen Thomas!
mjfin| 1.10.11 @ 1:14AM
Or perhaps they will find when they awake that they are one of the seventy two virgins.
ConantheContrarian| 1.7.11 @ 9:20AM
Booger, my friend, I agree with you about the current administration, but Bush 43 was their buddy too. He did nothing to curb immigration from Meso-America or from hostile countries. Immigration moratorium now!
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 5:50PM
Dear Conan:
some immigrants are fine. If Ada Yanath of Israel (Nobel Prize winner, Chemistry) wants to move here, we should welcome her with open arms.
But no unskilled immigrants, or uneducated ones, or murderous ones.
TommyS| 1.8.11 @ 7:41AM
Don't forget muslims.
We need to forget political correctnes and do some good old fashioned profiling.
Gail Stoltzfoos| 1.8.11 @ 7:33PM
You've got that right. I've been saying that we need to escort these people to the borders and make sure they leave; now! Islam is not a religion of peace! Read the headlines about Christian and Jewish persecution in Muslim nations. They cry the blues because patriotic Americans don't want their mosque near Ground Zero; yet we certainly couldn't build a church in their backyard. Throw them out - throw them all out now!
CB| 1.7.11 @ 6:36AM
What a breath of fresh air article! It's about time someone put some common sense thoughts together versus the politcally correct crap that is published every day by the mainstream media. Kudos Mr. Tucker
canuckistani| 1.7.11 @ 10:54AM
I just can't believe it took this long for people to realize this.....
Facts about Pakistan and the US since 9/11:
1) Musharraf's Pakistan was the ONLY state to officially recognize the Taliban regime. Don't even start on the nuke issue....
2) ISI actively recruited and trained Al Qaeda and Taliban fighters to undermine India's secret activities in Afghan
3) The reneging of the Taliban support for the TAPI gas line was the key impetus for putting them on the Junior target list, not harboring Bin Laden. The ISI is against TAPI, Musharraf's flip-flop was the reason for his repeated assasination attempts in the 2001-2004 period.
4) Karzai and Rumsfeld wanted TAPI to proceed against ISI wishes and the Lahore mafia actively moved to play up Karzai as the "little f-er on the Vespa scooter" running around Karachi and Islamabad looking for a job before we anointed him president. Rumsfeld's curious meeting with Turkmen officials in the lead up to the Afghan invasion was revealing. Why was the Sec Def meeting on a gas line agreement?
5) The State department makes a deal with Musharraf - further alienating him from the ISI, to provide cash for his money tree all the way through the civil and military authorities. At the same time, Commerce persuades Wal-mart to add Pakistan to their most favored global-sourcing sites - suddenly making Pakistan go from rogue state to favored-nation, a la Bush 41 and China a decade earlier.
6) Musharraf resists entering the tribal territories and keeps the religious elite at bay in Islamabad. The beginnings of US special forces activities in the tribal areas spurs the ISI to undermine Musharraf even further, Musharraf loses internal support and quits. The army is still loyal and protects him inside his home in Dubai.
7) The whore and bandit Zardari, likely complicit in his wife's murder, steals power and resumes his corruption to new levels. His willingness to play ball with the US on the tribal areas infuriates the religious elite even further and creates a schism he will not be able to control. The US reiterates support for the Zardari regime. The Swat massacre is the last straw for the religious elite.
8) The religious elite begin to undermine Zardari's power base by playing on religious differences and stirring up resentment even more in the Lahore and Karachi zones. The Christian's blasphemy charge is the fuse and the ruse leading to the assasination of the Punjabi governor.
The religious problems run VERY deep in Pakistan, probably moreso than any other place on earth. Pakistan is considered to be the most Islamic - including Saudi, and their imbedded hatred of infidels, mainly Shi'a, underpins everything in that country. It will boil over.
Like our psychosis over Cuba, their suspicion and distrust of India is pathological in nature, and should help us to properly measure their reliability as a "partner" in the region.
In my dealings with Pakistan in business, you must ensure your BS detector is on full at all times. It is a cultural defect that they will look you in the eye and lie with a smile on just about everything.
Ole_Sarge| 1.7.11 @ 11:01AM
"In my dealings with Pakistan in business, you must ensure your BS detector is on full at all times. It is a cultural defect that they will look you in the eye and lie with a smile on just about everything."
You forgot about knifing you at the same time.
Sometimes literally.
canuckistani| 1.7.11 @ 12:25PM
No, they prefer to find a useful idiot to do that for them.
Zardari's complicity in his wife's murder is probably the most under-reported issue here. Disgraceful and horrifying if the rumors are true, and we continue to underwrite these guys.
The Swat massacre was #2 and the lynchpin to the next escalation of religious BS.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 2:56PM
Don't you find it interesting that muslims will sacrifice their lives for their fantasy 72 virgins but never for their brothers, or sisters? In this case not even for a wife?
There is something fundamentally wrong with this religion which from my perspective has no honor whatsoever.
It's completely different from all other religions around the world. In many ways it's a state-sponsored cult.
Alex| 1.8.11 @ 6:29AM
Hey Sarge,
You know what? They say the same about us.
They say, they helped us against the Commies in 50's and 60's. But when they needed us when India attacked them in '71, we were nowhere.
Again they helped us defeat the Soviets in 80's and how did we reward them? We put sanctions on them for pursuing nukes.
After 9/11 we again go to them seeking their support against the Talibans, the same guys who we trained to help us disintegrate the Soviets in 80's. And now when they're doing that, we tell them you're not good enough.
This on again off again relationship pisses them off too.
Text man| 1.8.11 @ 6:38AM
Ole,
I've been dealing with Paks too but found them pretty straight and good.
Who have you been dealing with?
Vijay Dandapani| 1.7.11 @ 6:42AM
Mr, Tucker is right but did not finish the thought. Leaving them to "broil in their own inferno" includes stopping all aid, civilian and military to Pakistan; something the US has not done since the 50s. Thats a good thing but never will happen given fears in the US of unintended cinsequences
Maha| 1.7.11 @ 6:49AM
Sir!
I don't know from where i should start. If you are shocked to see people hailing the murderer as hero then so am i. I am also from that other side of the world which is called Pakistan.
It made me sick too and many Pakistanis are also disgusted with this behaviour of their own countrymen who have brought us shame and condemnation from the whole world. I don't blame you for perceiving as fanatics when you see such things. Just want to tell you that among such inhuman people who are blinded by their religion, there are some humans living as well. Yeah i am from the same liberal class that west often hears. We are in minority. Taseer death has not ended the hope of liberal Pakistan. His death has actually started this journey and it will be a long struggle. It will take time but surely one day you will see this human side of Pakistan.
I will rather ask you to check our newspapers. You will find some humans as well.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/99546/cheer-the-assassin/
http://blog.dawn.com/2011/01/0...../#comments
http://blog.dawn.com/2011/01/0.....ent-186146
Pelligtino| 1.7.11 @ 9:37AM
Maha, if your words are sincere, then good. Then stand strong, my brother.
However, you do not have world's of time to get it right. I want your country to offer far more civility than just what I see from Cricket players and the Pakistani national team (men's field hockey, too).
Your country is a mess. It is thoroughly untrustworthy.
And we Americans get weary of aiding after events like the Christmas earthquake of 2004 and the recent massive floodings of last year...only to see you deny our freely given, lifesaving aid to the minority Christians while kicking us in the teeth.
And while your military apparatus fakes aiding our war on Islamic terrorist while aiding our enemy with intel on NATO and US forces' operations.
Our patience is not without end.
I call on no more dimes to be spent on your lost land.
I trust that our Pentagon has plans to invade and secure your nuclear weapons arsenal. And I trust that our next president will have the simple wisdom to know that this is most likely what will need to occur.
I wish it were not so. But I have not seen a good Pakistan in my lifetime.
David W| 1.7.11 @ 9:45AM
Maha,
thank you for your response. My "response" is how do we get your views to become the predominant ones? I see the US media talking to Muslim "moderates" and yet when we read the non-politically correct news about these moderates they are no different than the murderers (they just use words instead of a gun or explosives to achieve their goals). I know there are Muslims (both male and female) who would be willing to be friends with a white Christian male like me. But they seem to almost be afraid to do that? And when we see the honor killings (one happened in the Dallas area not long ago) and refusal to allow seeing eye dogs in Muslim driven cabs or to have people with "service dogs" threatened because Muslims around them are offended by the presence of the dogs how can we believe that there is rational thought amongst Muslims (and let's not forget the accusation that Israel has trained sharks to kill Muslims and vultures/pigeons to spy on Saudi Arabia/Iran). The true radicals should be ones like you (if indeed you do respect non-Muslims).
Richard Ong| 1.7.11 @ 11:01PM
I read one page at one of the dawn.com links above and clicking on the home tab resulted in some suspicious behavior. I'm having anti-virus program difficulties now. May not be related but advise you to follow any of those links.
johne| 1.7.11 @ 6:54AM
Islam needs to be outlawed in civil countries. Period! The koran as well under incitement law. How can this be done? I'm not sure but we must find a way.
Vidyut | 1.7.11 @ 6:56AM
Actually, it isn't known that Asia bibi insulted Mohammed or the Koran. The women went and complained to a local mullah's wife and from there, the whole thing blew up. Even Pakistanis think it is unlikely in the dangerous climate for minorities that a minority will insult the Prophet or Koran - knowing that its legally punishable by death and while higher courts overturn verdicts, mob justice usually gets the accused after being set free.
The law against blasphemy is not from the British Era. In fact, when Pakistan was founded, it wasn't intended to be a Muslim state, but a secular democracy where all religions would be welcome, even if the country had been created for Muslims (yeah, many things are illogical about Pakistan). The blasphemy law, the sharia courts, the other repressive laws like the one on adultery, etc we can thank Pakistan's first military dictator General Zia for. Overnight, Pakistan became a sharia country, but not, because it was supposedly still a democracy with all its frills.
Pakistan's end began soon after its birth, when Badshah Khan - Gandhis friend and the founder of the non-violent Khilafat movement, who opposed the creation of a separate state for Muslims was persecuted and the non-violence movement outlawed. The only reason for this was that Badshah Khan was well respected in India, even though he swore total loyalty to the newly created nation. This man had been hailed all over the world, but persecuted in his motherland, jailed many times. Yet, in a country where it is a norm for politicians leaving their roles to move out of the country, he lived and died in Pakistan.
He was Pashtun and in death, he asked to be buried in Afghanistan. As the world is brought to its metaphorical knees by the violence in Afghanistan, perhaps readers may appreciate that both sides called for a voluntary ceasefire for his funeral. This is what Pakistan had, but threw away as it stepped on a path of dominance rather than freedom. It was the first step toward hate.
The inhuman laws and crazy mullahs and all came after that.
From then on, its been downhill, with 'anti-India' and later 'anti-west' providing direction for change rather than the wishes of the people.
WeMustResist| 1.8.11 @ 8:18AM
Thank you Vidyut for your insights. It seems that the level of hate and dishonesty in Pakistan is so high that the West would be better off by sending Pakistan to quarantine. The less exchange we have with the corrupt the less chance of misfortune coming our way. We do not gain enough from our relationship with Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen or Afghanistan to justify diplomatic relations, business dealings or normal immigration dealings. A good doctor tries to get poison out of a patient, and good governments in the West would admit we cannot help those nations and they can only hurt us. Leave them alone- let them stay as far away from us as possible.
Appleby| 1.7.11 @ 7:02AM
This week an Oppressed Minority was found driving through Ottawa (our capital) with an IED in his car. The Coptic churches in the GTA were surrounded by police due to threats by Islamists (who are NOT half a world away) who had already blown up Coptic churches and were threatening to do the same for Christmas everywhere in the world, including here in Toronto.
Yesterday there were 9 pages of hysterical reporting in our local newspaper about the horror of the Canadian Junior Hockey Team being shellacked by the Russians and merely obtaining a silver medal.
Pelligrino| 1.7.11 @ 9:52AM
Appleby, I do appreciate the many comments I see you make. Thank you for this as well, as I will look to see about what occured in Ottawa.
I hate to tell you that your land seems a real magnet for Islamic.
Last year I interviewed a 20-something woman from Turkmenistan -- on long-term green card in the US. She was at a Univ. of South Carolina school. Despite seeming to truly enjoy all the decadences of western lifestyle and her freedoms to date any boy she wanted, she longed for a more rigid Islamic environment.
All true. I thought her daft, but I listened and just recorded her impressions and plans.
Living near Charleston with a clan of two dozen from her country (the only one who seemed to be full-time employed was her 'engineer' father), she stated that she was a semester away from fleeing to a better Islamic land....
Canada. Specifically Toronto because her sister informed her that it was much better there.
Many Somalians seem to think the same.
Please keep us informed of the happenings there.
Stephanie| 1.7.11 @ 7:03AM
Maha, if you are genuine, thank you.
But I have to ask you, why are you who are more "rational" muslims, not more vocal in the media? Why are you not screaming from the rooftops for your muslim brothers to stop this barbaric murderous behavior and come in to the 21st century?
LiveFreeOrDie| 1.7.11 @ 11:01AM
Because if you speak out a mob will force you from your home, cut your head off and kill your family?
Maybe they are "vocal" but ignored by the media?
BD57| 1.7.11 @ 3:35PM
^^^^^
This.
The issue, IMO, is neither our government nor those of our allies (outside of Israel - - if our current government considers Israel an "ally", that is) want to recognize that this sort of thing is tolerated by Islamic governments in general (and Pakistan's in particular).
People like Maha have to tread carefully. They are distinctly in the minority in a country where 1) there are thousands of people who will kill Maha for disagreeing with the majority's view; 2) all too many of whom are in government; 3) so Maha cannot count on official protection and/or action against those who would kill Maha; and 4) nations like the United States bring little or no pressure on the government to change any of these things - instead, we insist the majority is, by and large, as sane as Maha.
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 6:02PM
Hold on a minute!!!
I thought there were more moderates than fanatics?
Sarcasm off
Vidyut | 1.7.11 @ 7:08AM
@Maha
I am following the Pakistani papers, and indeed see the wave of shock rippling among liberals. I also see many of the educated class of Pakistan stop defending and excusing and ignoring in favour of confronting the problems - for the first time. I can see what you mean by "long struggle", but I believe that it would be worth it.
I wish you and your country the strength and courage to stand by this new path that seems to be unfolding.
JamesJ| 1.7.11 @ 7:14AM
This could be the pilot for the islamic version of the Cosby show.
SonOfSam| 1.7.11 @ 9:06AM
hahahahahahaha...... you just made Jolt Cola come out of my nose!!! Please, PLEASE send Katie Kouric the idea
stmichrick| 1.7.11 @ 10:14AM
The Muhammed Cosby Show; hmm, lots of story line ideas here:
Daughter resists her genital mutilation rite;
Son goes off to College in Texas and comes back a southern Baptist;
Mom shows ankle at grocery store and Dad mulls an honor killing.
And on and on...
Nick| 1.7.11 @ 2:58PM
JamesJ,
Ha-ha!
"Tonight, on the al Cosbi-Mutallah Show, Heathcliff-Malik's wife, Claire-Fatima, and her friends, get into an argument with a Christain woman at the local grocery store. Later, they organize a mob to drive the woman out of Brooklyn. When the borough president speaks out against the mob, he is killed."
I can definitely see this in the top ten Neilsen ratings.
Lockean| 1.7.11 @ 7:19AM
It appears that Pakistan is trapped by the same type of power sharing arrangement that Saudi Arabia has with the Wahabists.
RCV| 1.7.11 @ 12:13PM
...and the scary thing is that Pakistan has nuclear weapons.
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 6:05PM
Yes, my dear RCV, they do. And what degree of force should the US be allowed to use to neutralize them to prevent their transfer to terrorists? Myself, I think all the way up to maximum (Hiroshima or plus) force, if necessary. That could be an unpleasant, but NOT unforseeable, consequence of Pakistan continuing its radicalization in the future.
Now, you may think I'm extreme, or hyperventilating, and you may be right. (My wife nicknamed me Gulo gulo for a reason.) On the other hand, what degree of force would the Pakistanis have to use against us to get you to consider that option (say Islamic radicals smuggled some Hiroshima sized bombs and hid them inside large enough medical device containers (this is, of course, the plot of The Rings of Allah, which was written by a nuclear weapons expert)).
How many cities would it take to have our President essentially forced to use Maximum force? Tom Kratman, a former Instructor in Rule of Law at the Army War College, posits that it would take 3 in his novel, Caliphate. (I find it interesting to read fiction on this topic written by people who have experience in nuclear research or War Law expertise---Col. Kratman, in addition to his law degree, has been an infantry battalion commander.)
That's one of the two big questions on this issue---the first one is how aggressive will we be in pursuing intelligence on potential attacks, and the second one is, if a weapon of mass destruction is used, how hard should our counter be?
That there will be attempted attacks is no question at all.
RCV| 1.8.11 @ 2:06AM
I'm with you entirely on this question, Occam. When the world was in the situation of the US vs USSR, we had two superpowers, once of which was evil, but both of which were rational. Mutual assured destruction was a deterrent. That equation will not work if one of the nations with nuclear weapons is under the control of irrational fanatics, particularly religious apocalyptic. If you believe utter chaos will usher in the return of the Mahdi or the Messiah, that Armageddon is the necessary precursor to the dawn of eternal justice, MAD is not only no deterrent but an incentive. Aminadinijad is one such believer in the imminence of the apocalypse; a nuclear weapon in his hand, or in the hand of the fanatics who undertook the killing of someone who opposes a law against blasphemy, is simply intolerable for civilized countries, because it could well spell the end of civilization.
Todd S| 1.8.11 @ 2:43PM
Every now and then, RCV makes good sense. Just don't ever refer to us as "tea-baggers" again and I won't refer to you as an ahole. Deal?
RCV| 1.8.11 @ 6:06PM
Deal. No name-calling. Let's discuss issues. (My explanation on "tea bagger" was absolutely honest. Now I know better. "Tea Partiers" it is.)
darcy| 1.10.11 @ 12:44AM
I do hope you've been over to gatesofvienna.com since our last discussion about sharia law and its incompatibility with democracy and our Constitution. If not, today is a good time to visit; there is a video you really do need to see; the date of its posting is Jan. 9, 2011, under the title: Replacing the System with Islam.
coal carrier| 1.7.11 @ 7:23AM
The religion of peace has spoken again. Killing in the name of god. (small g because this is not the same God that worship) I wonder how the United Methodist Church bishop feels about this.
rongordo | 1.7.11 @ 7:32AM
But they're NOT on the other side of the world! We're IMPORTNG them by the thousands, and then being brainwashed into "diversity" while we subsidize their lives. We were better off when we used to pit them against eachother, funding and training them, overtly on one hand, and covertly on the other.
Rehan Khan| 1.7.11 @ 7:33AM
Excellent article indeed. I being a Pakistani myself agree that we are right now sitting on a major fault line, but I expect the world to give us a break. It is the folly of decades, being funded by west and some rich arab nations that we are in the mess you see us in right now. To top it all, these so called champions of liberalism were cheering around a military dictator (Zia). All the laws and extreme ignorance is the fruit of the same era. I wish we could some how wipe all this, but unfortunately it will take time for the liberals read educated to pacify the have not's. It can't be done over night. It can't be done through mere use of force rather rationality alone needs to prevail. We need to support democracy and the world need to support us they we see it through. At this critical juncture we in Pakistan expect support not sanctions.
Melvin| 1.7.11 @ 7:48AM
I guess it could be said that human beings are all crazy to one degree or another. Pakistan, and some other countries are like the crazy uncle that lives in the house next door.
Rehan, you make very good point. But unfortunately we all live in a drive up window mentality now, in that the world wants immediate results right now.
Pakistanis are no different than anyone else. Yes, they have their unique culture, but give a Pakistani an education, become acclimated to the rule of law, and democracy or better yet how to develop a society that has a representative form of government rather than a true democracy, then he or she is just like anyone else.
But at least to me, just because a Pakistani learns these things doesn't necessarily mean that he is rejecting of what a Pakistani is and embracing a Western lifestyle.
I'll take a guess here, but that is what I think what many rank and file Pakistanis are afraid of. If they get an education that they will reject all things Pakistani. I'm not complete sure but it is just an observation.
Rehan Khan hang in there, hopefully Pakistanis will get tired of killing each other and seek a better way.
Melvin| 1.7.11 @ 7:36AM
"These people are not rejecting colonialism, they are rejecting civilization. Sunnis kill Shi'ia, Shi'ia kill Sunnis, and Sunnis and Shi'ia."
Well people, I guess it could be said that this analysis could be applied to the American Indian. The Left loves to tout that the White man massacred the American Indian, but truth be told the American Indian was doing a pretty good job of doing that on their own, without the White mans help.
The White colonialists just taught the American Indian to be more efficient at it.
I read the article and the American Indian similarity just immediately popped into my head.
canuckistani| 1.7.11 @ 11:05AM
What the heck are you talking about?
The white man has been the most prolific killer in the history fo the world. Full stop.
We've turned it into a science, imbedded it into our culture, and is the root of our power. No characterization, just fact.
Jim| 1.7.11 @ 12:59PM
Read a little closer, Canuckistan. Perhaps white folks are more prolific, but only through the weapons their intelligence developed (unlike the Stone Age Am. Indians") not for their greater lust for blood. For that, see Allah, who, by the way, is a literally a "god" in name only. He exists only in the febrile minds of his believers, and in the five letters of his name. Fortunately, the TRUE God (of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) will redeem His believers, while Allah's will be screaming in flames for all eternity.
Clint| 1.7.11 @ 1:04PM
Bull Faux Canuck
Death Counts:
65 million in the People's Republic of China
2 million in Cambodia
2 million in North Korea
1.7 million in Africa.By Commies
1 million in Vietnam.By Commies
6 million+ Japs.WwII
etc......
Richard Ong| 1.7.11 @ 7:03PM
Thanks. The antidote to the usual denigration of the West.
idalily| 1.7.11 @ 2:49PM
I would like to see the statistics that back up this statement. Link?
Clint| 1.7.11 @ 5:06PM
It's from chief editor Stéphane Courtois's: The Black Book Of Communism: Crimes,Terror, Repression.
Buy it and read it.
http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~hpcws/lelivrenoir.htm
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 6:31PM
I think the 170 million victims of Islam might disagree.
Richard Ong| 1.7.11 @ 7:01PM
Good one.
canuckistani| 1.7.11 @ 11:35AM
What the heck are you talking about?
The white man has been the most prolific killer in the history fo the world. Full stop.
We've turned it into a science, imbedded it into our culture, and is the root of our power. No characterization, just fact.
Melvin| 1.7.11 @ 11:46AM
Oh plaaaeeessseee, spare me the sanctimonies BS.
Granted, the White man has killed his share, but look at the rest of the world.
Africans have spent centuries killing and enslaving each other. Even to this day the sell each other into bondage. Chinese Chairman Mao murdered over 50 million of his countrymen.
But oh no let a white man do somehting he is considered the most ruthless bastard on the planet.
Just look to the United Nations its chock full of prolific murderers representing the Jihad against the White Boy.
JimH| 1.7.11 @ 1:51PM
Actually when you think of deaths historically, Native Americans may be considered responsible for the deaths of many millions after early explorers brought back tobacco and syphilis from the new word.
BD57| 1.7.11 @ 3:39PM
So ... because the "white man" has killed in the past, he should now stand aside and let this slaughter continue .... because the Persians & Arabs have to be given a chance to catch up, right?
"White Man" can't have all the fun, right?
Seriously - beyond the self-righteousness, what does your comment contribute to the discussion?
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 6:12PM
canuck, how can I but this in a way that you'll understand...........you're an idiot.
You're pulling that little ditty out of your pathetic, liberal pie hole. you couldn't back that statement up with fact if you had even bothered to try.
Tell me; what was the root, of say, the Spaniard's power? The Roman's? The Mongol's? The Chinese? The Soviet Union's? The German's? ......
Pssst, canuck, your stupidity is showing.
Richard Ong| 1.7.11 @ 7:06PM
Bullseye.
scythe| 1.7.11 @ 7:49AM
Damn you said it so well! Let's flee that area of the world that is the hall of mirrors at the entrance to hell. Were the lives of thousands of Americans, our young people, and all our treasure worth the sacrifice? So some woman in a shroud can VOTE FOR THE FIRST TIME????? What an outrage that our young men have become maimed or died because we would like MALIK to experience....democracy? I don't give a rat's ass if they kill each other off and eat the carrion. I care about my countrymen first. And there is not a life over there worth dying for. They are primitives, they are brigands, they are what they are. We could never impose our values on them. But we died trying. What a waste of lives. What a tragic shattering waste to die for such as these. Let them all kill each other. Or we should, should they threaten us anymore. When will we finally take the fraud known as "multiculturalism" and blow it to smithereens? Need proof that all cultures are NOT EQUAL? THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE BETTER THAN OTHERS? Take a good look at the jackals living on the other side of the world. And keep them the hell away from us. They are contagion.
darcy| 1.10.11 @ 2:11AM
Am in total agreement with you, scythe. Bush and his neocons sold us a lie about the rop; it's time to pull out and let them have it out between themselves; stop Muslim immigration; close down mosques and explain that SEDITION is a treasonous offense, punishable by law; they aren't going to hide between the First Amendment to grow their creeping sharia in our country. Do you hang out at all at gatesofvienna.com -- wow, what an eye-opener it is!
pecopfc| 1.7.11 @ 7:50AM
Time for talk is over, the islamists want a Crusade, I say give them one, they blow up a Church, two Mosques blow,10 Christians killed, 100 islamists die....these retards respect nothing but Brut Force, give it to them,,,,ya can't bomb them back to the stone age...they already are....worthless scum, all!
Floyd Looney| 1.11.11 @ 1:14AM
The Islamics have been on a crusade for a very long time. Have you not seen a map and read about how they have spread shariah law and Muslim rule further and further in every direction these last 50-100 years?
Will| 1.7.11 @ 7:50AM
Not to parrot Booger, but here we go "Other side of the world?" Mr. Tucker, I lived for quite some years in NYC, Brooklyn to be specific. I cannot quote numbers, but can certainly direct you to sections of the borough where you might need to look at a street sign to remember where you are. Many Islamic countries are represented, not just those in South Asia. My experience was in a section where many were from the Balkans. The KLA recruited aggressively and openly during my time there. Storefront mosques abound, and there is no shortage of the larger, established variety. Which of course makes the Victory mosque plans all that more suspicious (considering it's business district location) far away from the communities in Queens, Brooklyn and Harlem. It is not unusal for women arriving from the Middle East, South Asia etc. in the latest stages of pregnancy and being rushed via taxi from JFK to city hospitals to deliver "New Americans" As a former employee of one, I worked in the "diaspora" and can relate some interesting anecdotes. Nowhere near as mad as Pakistan, but a growing story that continually goes unreported. Give the "situation" here and in Western Europe, this has been and will continue to be disastrous.
Intelligent Design| 1.7.11 @ 7:51AM
Nothing could be more hostile to our Constitution and freedom. Islam should be identified by Congress as a subversive organization. Mosques should be outlawed in the U.S., immigration of Muslims should be permanently banned, Muslims should be banned from U.S. airports and airplanes, Muslims should not be allowed to serve in our government in any capacity, and all Muslim "charities" should be shut down. The goal of Islam and mainstream Muslims is to destroy our freedom, replacing our government with a "religious" dictatorship, such as the current government of Saudi Arabia. For those who don't know: Saudi Arabia's constitution is the Koran, its law is shari'a, and the practice of any "religion" other than Islam is prohibited in Saudi Arabia. Non-Muslims are even banned from their "holy" cities of Mecca and Medina. This is what Muslims want to install in the U.S.. They use our Bill of Rights to further their cause, while at the same time their goal is to kill freedom. Islam belong in the 7th century.
Intelligent Design| 1.7.11 @ 8:05AM
In case the above isn't clear, Muslims want the rest of us to submit to Islam, to surrender our freedom in the name of 7th century idiocy. Suggested readings: The Grand Jihad by Andrew McCarthy, Reflections on the Revolution in Europe by Christopher Caldwell, The Crisis of Islam by Bernard Lewis, and especially an article in the October 2010 issue of Commentary magazine titled "20 Years of the Rushdie Rules" by Daniel Pipes.
True religions oppose evil; Islam embodies evil. It is comparable to Nazism and Soviet Communism. Will the new Ronald Reagan place stand up and identify Islam as an evil force?
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 8:16AM
Intelligent,
One other book, please. fictional of course.
Try living the future at www.texassaidno.com
They offer a full money back guarantee if you are not blown away.
Tim the Enchanter| 1.7.11 @ 4:42PM
Ken... "blown away"? Unfortunate choice of metaphor, considering the subject of this article.
Richard Ong| 1.7.11 @ 7:12PM
Quite. It's one of the greatest of ironies that some Americans yearn to accord First Amendment rights to those whose dearest wish is to replace the Constitution with the shariah, a joke.
martin j smith| 1.7.11 @ 7:58AM
I think to be fair the US Constitition should be read in every house or worship in this country and that would include mosques--well that is a joke really. But the real issues of seriousness is the Socialist,Marxists, Left's flirtation and love affair with Radical Islam. And here is the real story: Sharia Law. The Left will encourage it. Do they realize what they are doing to this country ? Some do and some do not. But those that do and these are the hard core, the Soros backed leadership ( I mean morally and financially backed ) know very well what they are doing. Their idea is to destroy this country period.
I think that reading the constitution is a good thing but at some point very soon --in less than one year the real dirty truth about what the conflict is about in our country. The Left Core who develop the policies are not naive incompetents. They are our enemy within and the Tea Party,Conservatives and others will have a major challenge on their hands: Do they call it as it really is or do they go on to claim these folks are just incompetent boobs ? Events may overtake time to decide and there may be little time but to go for it. I'll give you an example: A manjor instance of Islamic family violence or even Political hit killing in our country which is let pass because it is supported by Sharia Law. What say you now ?
Intelligent Design| 1.7.11 @ 8:11AM
It's incredible how the left fumes over Sarah Palin's benign religious faith, while at the same time it preaches "tolerance" of Islam, the embodiment of evil. Obama and the rest of the Demo Socialists flunk the IQ test. To Islam, they are useful idiots giving aid and comfort to the enemy.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 9:35AM
Convienant excuse to shill for Sarah Palin...not to get off topic too much but Sarah Palin's religion will not be the ammunition she provides to the left that will take her down, hopefully not the republican ticket.
Her demonstrated lack of judgement, temperament, and ability to lead will be what brings her down.
Ok, back to those crazy muslims.
George True| 1.7.11 @ 10:16AM
There you go again, Bob. We understand that you don't like Sarah Palin at all. You have said so a hundred times, and you manage to say so even in threads that have nothing to do with her.
Bob Grant does not like Sarah Palin. We heard you. WE GOT IT. Okay?
loulou| 1.7.11 @ 11:24AM
Don't be such a pantywaist.
Sarah can't hurt you.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 12:02PM
Oh contraire,
A reality show star as president could hurt us all.
(And yes, it's a reality show, not travelogue)
victor| 1.8.11 @ 10:46AM
Bob Grant:
"A reality show star as president could hurt us all.
(And yes, it's a reality show, not travelogue)"
As opposed to what is playing in the White House now?
A reality show and a travelogue?
Unlimited budget and unlimited destinations.
Who could ask for more?
Intelligent Design| 1.7.11 @ 12:03PM
Palin is just an example. The left despises Christianity in general, but of course Lefties all pretend to be church-goers when running for office. Even B. Hussein Obama is a church-goer ...... what a crock! Palin isn't qualified to be president, and would lose if nominated, but she is more qualified than Obama.
Despite the long bloody track record of Islam, the Left is more receptive to a mosque in NYC than a cross at some makeshift memorial to veterans in East Overshoe.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 12:31PM
I appreciate your clarification and couldn't agree more.
There is nothing more offensive than when liberals use christianity for political ends, usually in the name of "social justice". With the consent of an approving media:
*African American churches becomming nothing more than polling stations and venues for political rallies
* Pro abortion Norheastern liberals using the Catholic Church for political ends. e.g., sitting in the front pew (hopefully in front of a camera), taking communion knowing full well it's in direct violation of Canon Law
Just a couple of examples. They want to render Religion meaningless, like the constitution. Whatever the constitution or Religion means to the individual is all that matters.
Let's not forget, however, that Palin wont be the only Christian running in the republican primary.
George True| 1.7.11 @ 1:31PM
"...the left is more receptive to a mosque in NYC than a cross at some makeshift memorial to veterans..."
Well said, I.D. And all too true.
RWinks| 1.7.11 @ 4:49PM
EVERYONE is more qualified than Obama.
post*tenebras*lux| 1.8.11 @ 12:51PM
Bob..........EXAMPLES?
Bob Grant| 1.8.11 @ 5:28PM
Oh, like the brilliant decision to have crosshairs over pictures of vulnerable democrats in last years election on her website.
Should I stop her?
Bob Grant| 1.8.11 @ 5:29PM
here that is.
Melvin| 1.7.11 @ 8:11AM
The first step is to have a societal acknowledgement that we are at war with Islam. But, are we at war with Islam or are we at war with a bunch of manipulative Bastards, who shield their true political intentions by hiding behind Islam.
Hitler used the Jews to whip the German masses into a genocidal hysteria. Those who are hiding behind Islam are no different.
The Big E| 1.7.11 @ 11:46AM
Regardless of whether we believe we are at war with Islam, Islam is at war with us. It has been since its founding. It will be till its destruction. If you don't believe me, read the Koran for yourself.
Melvin| 1.7.11 @ 11:49AM
I don't doubt for one second your analysis. But what I am looking for who is controlling the snake. We can beat this snake to death till we are blue in the face but until we get to the head and chop it off, we are going to continue to have to deal with the snake.
Richard Ong| 1.7.11 @ 7:31PM
The head of the snake is the passages in the Koran and the teaching of all eight schools of Islamic "jurisprudence" that mandate death for apostasy. Islam is such a backward and oppressive political and social system that erstwhile "Muslims" would depart from it by the millions if they could do so without sacrificing their lives. As Mr. Taseer's death and Ms. Bibi's sentence of death show even the most ridiculous charge of disrespect of Mohammed (such as laying an outdated calendar with Koranic verses on a table top) will be acted upon by the lunatics. Muslims who do not formally swear that the Koran is in error, Mohammed was in error, and all eight schools are in error are ipso facto active supporters of a doctrine of murder and have no place anywhere in the world, especially not in the West.
Allow Muslims in our midst and you have the perfect engine for murder and subversion (replacement of the Constitution with the shariah).
Mitch Angoop| 1.7.11 @ 11:55AM
It is certainly anathema to EVER utter the horrible word "NUKE" but that may be the only thing in our arsenal that could save us. Of course barry the muslim has sworn he'll never use them, and our 111th congress assured our destruction by ratifying the latest joke of a START treaty.
Yes, I HATE nukes. Yes, they're inhuman. There; I've said it so don't come back and tell me I'm a monster. But... When our own stupidity and cowardice comes back to bite us, the only thing we'll have is the slightest threat that we'd ever use them. I love the lefties who try to dishonor the U.S. as the only nation that ever used them; but the use of nukes saved an estimated one million American lives because we didn't have to invade Japan in 1945.
Now, all it would take is to make it the official policy of the U.S. that any attack on The United States of America by any muslim organization or country be considered an act of war which will bring on full nuclear retaliation on Mecca first; then Medina, and from there on to the capitals and military targets of muslim countries. We know who these people are and what they're doing. We just do not have the guts to do anything about it. These people have been clear: Their objective in life is to destroy America and kill as many of us as they can. Stop the deadly denial.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 12:41PM
So you would have us apply a Mutually Assurred Destruction policy to nations of individuals who are frothing at the mouth to hook up with their 72 virgins?
MAD was created with atheistic countries in mind.
Mitch Angoop| 1.7.11 @ 3:26PM
Are you more concerned about an atheist who sees this as the pinnacle of his/her existence and wants to get as much as possible out of life since there is nothing afterwards? Or, would a muslim fanatic just lusting for death/martyrdom and his 72 virginians be a little more likely to 'push the button' should he have the chance?
I'm more afraid of the muslim fanatic. Actually, ANY kind of a fanatic scares me because they have no logic and simply cannot understand a reasoned argument.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 3:57PM
MAD worked beautifully against the Soviets for the reasons you explained, i.e, their life on Earth is the pinnacle of his/her existence.
However, your proposed policy against Muslim countries would quickly devolve into a quasi MAD scenario because terrorists would realize they have ONE shot at us before every one of their holy sites, capitols, military targets, etc. would be destroyed. They would rationalize this as some sort of sign from Allah to prepare for and initiate a "final" battle to fulfill some prophesy.
If you want to go down that path, we might as well just hit them at some random time like a "thief in the night".
I'm just saying a warning such as what you are proposing would have the opposite effect of what you are seeking.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 3:59PM
My apologies for the mis-spelled words.
Mitch Angoop| 1.7.11 @ 7:30PM
No worries Man, I used "virginians" intentionally after an old joke but nobody noticed. Without being cavalier, the possibility of some muslim fanatic with a nuke is terrifying beyond belief. Because of their past behavior I'd put nothing past them and would take them out in a 'pre-emptive' strike as soon as any threat was verified. Not a second's hesitation. These are very dangerous times we are in.
Cerebrate| 1.7.11 @ 8:24AM
William Tucker might as well have garlanded the murderer with petals and cheered him on. There is no difference between Tucker and admirers of Qadri, both are hate mongers. He reports about the 100 admirers of the murdered showering him with petals but petals were also laid on the grave of Salman Taseer by 6000 Muslims. He does not talk about candle light vigils in all cities of Pakistan and thousands of others who mourned Taseer.
Pelligrino| 1.7.11 @ 10:04AM
Cerebrate, please post here web links to news storys and photojournalism to undergird what you write. Like others, I am doubtful. I need something concrete. Thank you.
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 8:29AM
Hey guys,
we actually have some Moslem apologists with us this morning.
I hope Mr. Taseer got his 72 bored mutilated enslaved for eternity virgins.
hardcard| 1.7.11 @ 8:39AM
islam a religion of peace, off with their heads and then they pray, while your at it take a bath and have some BBQ ribs
Louis Jenkins| 1.7.11 @ 8:41AM
As I said yesterday, you know it, I know it, but our blessed Pretender in Chief doesn't. Well, maybe he does know it and is constantly looking the other way. Until we change our government, its mannerisms, and its purpose, we will live under the threat of Islam. I believe we need to change the way we look at Islam-it is a threat and no good can come from it. Europe has undergone many tremendous changes in the last 20 years, to the point that the majority of entitlement reciepents are Muslim, that most of the crime committed is by Muslims, that the police doesn't enforce the law, or for that matter go into Muslim communities.
I do not want to live in the kind of world that Islam brings. I certainly don't want my daughters living that way and don't want them contending with Islamic law. Yes, those masses hide behind Islam.
What is the proper solution? Most of you know what it is. Good luck gentlemen and gentleladies, our government couldn't care less what happens to us. I do.
Asif Abbasi| 1.7.11 @ 8:48AM
Being a Pakistani myself, i think this is a view of ground from 10,000 feet above. Just like you cannot get the actual picture from such a height, similarly you cannot decipher the truth sitting a continent apart.
Weather or not the motive was Religious is yet to be found out. People have been citing the murder has political.
Secondly, Blasphemy law is a law in Pakistan. You guys cannot judge weather a particular law in another country is good or bad, reason being, its the Democracy and the people who have voted for the lawmakers, who made this law. If this law is unfit for our needs, we will elect people who will abolish it. As of now, it is perfect, to keep religious harmony among the people, and stop people from inciting restlessness in society.
Now lets come to the current situation of Pakistan, and how it has landed in the situation where it is now.
Pakistan from the moment it gained independence has been at the mercy of American policy makers, who had times and again used 'This land of Pure' to its own advantages. The reason was pretty simple: Initially to keep a lid on Soviet union, and now to make sure China doesn't get away with so much budget surplus of trillions of dollars, and controlling the reserves in Afghanistan and Central Asia.
As of now Pakistan is the hub of terrorist activities from CIA, Mossad and Raw. Funding to the religious groups have been provided directly by India, and a number of Taliban captured in Swat and Waziristan have been found to be non-circumcized, meaning they were never muslims in the first place. Upon interrogation, they have been found to be agents from these intelligence agencies.
I feel sorry for you believing what is shown on your Television screens, and thinking that truth is what you see. If you ask me, Pakistan is one of the bravest nations in the world. No one in the world can walk around, admist suicide bombings, but Pakistanis have still be hanging around. Give them credit for this at least. They have still been producing worlds finest doctors, engineers, computer scientists, pilots, businessmen etc.
And finally when you said, you should do your business in Afghanistan and go away, i think you are hugely mistaken my friend. USA is here to stay. The energy reserves in Afghanistan and Central Asia are too big for US to leave this country. Even in Iraq, you handed the govt to USA puppets, energy reserves to US Companies, and then gave partial control back to Iraqis. Afghanistan is actually a gold mine, and you are here to stay... Mark my words...
loulou| 1.7.11 @ 9:14AM
Spare me.
I don't need any explanations for your barbarism.
Can we please stop financing this cesspool that is Pakistan? Our aid is propping them up. Let the Saudis do it.
Melvin| 1.7.11 @ 9:44AM
Loulou like it or not the man is correct. Afghanistan and Pakistan are one big giant mining operation.
Does it suck, well it depends on which side of the ocean your on.
The stuff that is requiring certain minerals are only found in certain places. China is already using minerals as a strategic weapon. Russia is as well. Both Russia and China would both love to put us in a hurt-locker defense wise.
Now this notion of why can't everyone just get along..... To perfectly be honest, I personally gave that up a long time ago. There will always be the tyrannical bad guys who are bent on forcing their will on everyone.
The world has never gotten along since the beginning of time when man first walked upon the earth. And I finally concluded that it never will.
Asif Abbasi| 1.9.11 @ 8:36AM
Would you kindly explain if killing a governor is barbarism who supposedly said something bad, or killing innocent civilians via drone attacks in Pakistan, Afghanistan, IRAQ and Palestine.
I haven't seen you guys speaking loudly about that.
How about you guys being perpertrators of terrorism, and spending your tax money on killing those innocent civilians for the sake of energy and protecting your coming generations and at the behest of Oil Conglomerates ????
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 9:17AM
Agreed. Afghanistan IS a gold mine and the USA will find some excuse for staying.
One of the largest lithium deposits in the world was recently found in Afghanistan. With the world's growing demand for alternative energy sources, lithium will be a treasured resource.
macon| 1.7.11 @ 9:09AM
It may sound simple but pray for Pakistan, it's leaders, it's people and especially it's Christian community. Man may not be able to change hearts but God can.
Amor de Cosmos| 1.7.11 @ 10:33AM
Asif, you are nuts. You swallowed every piece of Arab propaganda there is.
Blasphemy laws that result in capital punishment. Are you serious? Are you civilized?
What kind of country can claim to be tolerant and liberal when it allows such things to be on its law books. Get out of the conspiracy echo chamber that pervades Islamic countries (and the "self pitying "poor us, we are pawns in America and the Zionists' game" and the 8th century.
MikeD| 1.7.11 @ 12:00PM
Remember, any reference to any form of 'democracy' will never be found in any translation of the koran or the sharia law of any country under it. Every muslim governed country is a dictatorship or religious oligarchy. There is no way anybody in Pakistan ever had a vote on the blasphemy laws.
Asif Abbasi| 1.9.11 @ 8:38AM
Agreed Mike. However, after the blasphemy law was passed, six elected governments came and went and they found this law to be matching the needs of our society.
FYI, this law was passed during British Rule ... Please conduct thorough research on this.
Asif Abbasi| 1.9.11 @ 6:43AM
Thanks Amor De Cosmos...
These are not conspiracy theories... These are the realities of life, which some ignorant people like you simply refuse to acknowledge.
Just go through Wikileaks, and see how US has influenced governments in these countries for their own sake...
Petronius| 1.7.11 @ 9:11AM
Risking death for saying something depends on who you piss off. And as for 1st grade never ending, most members of my union think the world should be run like kindergarten where nobody gets more than his "fair share." The muslims wouldn't be able to colonize the west with anchor babies if our citizens didn't kill theirs and the level of maturity wasn't so abysmal.
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 6:39PM
Asif,
Pakistan, world's finest doctors...the FINEST doctors...I call bullshit on that. Let's compare Medical Nobel Prize winners per population, and keep in mind neither Salk nor Sabin received one.
World's finest pilots...yeah, they go toe to toe with the IAF every day. Uh huh.
There are nice people everywhere, and smart people everywhere...but Pakistan is a cesspool. And no one in the US wants to go to Pakistan for graduate study, except maybe those who want to be fundamentalist Islamic clerics. Get real.
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 6:25PM
Good grief Asif, wake up and smell the coffee. The days of your BS rhetoric are drawing to a close.
Fewer and fewer are buying what you're selling.
A half a world away, really? I hate to tell you but technology has bridged that divide. Unfortunately, the primitives of the Middle East don't know it yet.
Big, bad America is not the problem. No, no. America is just the straw man for every oppressive middle eastern regime. You see, when you're going to keep your people living in the 7th century it is imperative that they have a repository for their inevitable anger, lest they turn that anger on their actual oppressors.
Get a clue Asif!
bf| 1.7.11 @ 3:00PM
"You guys cannot judge weather a particular law in another country is good or bad, reason being, its the Democracy and the people who have voted for the lawmakers, who made this law."
The founders of our nation despised democracy because it is mob rule. Some rights are granted to all by our creator and must be protected from the mob: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
Death for expressing one's opinion is an egregious violation of natural law--it is savagery. Is Allah so weak he needs you to defend him?
jasperbob| 1.7.11 @ 12:39PM
I guess you can just about spin anything if you try hard enough.
ConantheContrarian| 1.7.11 @ 9:22AM
"I think we should finish whatever the hell it is we are doing in Afghanistan but then get the hell out. Forget about this "nation-building." These people are incapable of holding a wedding or a funeral without somebody blowing himself up and taking half the crowd with him. Maybe in some other century we can sit down and talk about a peaceful future. For now, I say let them broil in their own inferno."
Amen, Brother William, amen. Immigration moratorium NOW!!!
butterdezillion | 1.7.11 @ 9:25AM
Asif Abbasi, would you support a law in the US that forbids anyone from saying anything negative about the Bible, in the interest of keeping peace? Why or why not?
Alex| 1.8.11 @ 6:01AM
Hey, one of our Hollywood celebrities MG said something against the Jews and got screwed big time. It came on TV too.
Seems like you can't talk against J--s here. Huh?
Asif Abbasi| 1.9.11 @ 6:41AM
Definitely, I don't have an issue with how US people want to get themselves governed.
Seek| 1.7.11 @ 9:28AM
This is one of the best articles about the Islamic mind that I've ever read. Tucker grasps why one cannot simply "aid" or "build" the Islamic world in a manner of aiding post-Communist Eastern Europe. Muslims are inimical to reason. They are infantile narcissists straight out of Bosch's visions of hell.
Some people simply cannot find happiness unless they are enslaved, enslaving others, or both. Islamic radicals fit that bill.
MikeD| 1.7.11 @ 12:02PM
Sounds just like a description of our own barry the muslim...
jasperbob| 1.7.11 @ 12:43PM
Please check out THE CLOSING OF THE MUSLIM MIND: HOW INTELLECTUAL SUICIDE CREATED THE MODERN ISLAMIST CRISIS by Robert R. Reilly (2010).
Very informative.
Richard Baker| 1.7.11 @ 10:13AM
Seek:
Agreed. Islam is the problem. Far from being a Religion of Peace, it is a way to justify barbarism and unspeakable behavior as Holy Writ.
Asif Abbasi| 1.9.11 @ 8:45AM
Richard,
Could you kindly explain where Islam justifies barbarism ? Kindly quote the correct verse from Quran, and lets discuss further.
Vaughn Burckard| 1.7.11 @ 10:15AM
And this is why there can be no such animal as the 'good muslim'. There are no good cancer cells either. Eradicate the disease totally.
VBMax| 1.7.11 @ 10:40AM
For the life of me, I can't fathom why any decent, informed person would want to self-identify as a Muslim. (unless under threat.) What possible tenets could they point to that ought to be admired and practiced. I suspect that there are many out there that would like to leave but are afraid. We should do everything we can to make it safe for them to do so.
martin j smith| 1.7.11 @ 10:56AM
Lets talk about human rights. And, I have no question that my view of this topic is from a Western perspective--big deal that is who I am.
Lets say female is sentenced to stoning to death for looking at the wrong person. And lets ay this case is in a Muslim nation--Take Iran or Saudi Arabia or wherever. I would still believe that this treatment is in humane no matter where it is happening. It may be their law but I do not have to like it or respect it and I can within the confines of this country ( USA ) support those who protest its being carried out and, if it applies to boycott such a nation or at least have some form of condemnation. But within this country I believe we should not allow any group for any reason to have a large parallel legal system I wil give an example: Very religious ( Hasidic for example ) jews may have a religious judicatation of the marital problems but if a person male or female kills, sexually abuses or in anyway breaks our secular laws within our legal system they are tried by our system just as anyone else. As I understand it, this would not be true in Sharia law. Thus i am opposed to this.
davelnaf| 1.7.11 @ 11:17AM
What the author says about Pakistan is true, to one degree or another, of the entire Muslim world.
But Pakistan is a hellhole in a league of its own. What more can one say about its level of dysfunction that its nuked-up paranoia over India’s alleged nefarious designs doesn’t say far more eloquently? If some enormous and irreconcilable ethnic difference lay at the bottom of it you could at least partially rationalize Pakistanis’ collective behavior to where the word ‘insane’ could a get a little rest. The biggest difference between these two countries is that Islam dominates every aspect of life in one of them.
Nation-building is never going to succeed in Afghanistan. To begin with the Afghans are just too backward. They may have a trillion dollars’ worth of mineral wealth, but the average Afghan will never see a penny of it. And we shouldn’t be in that country when their elites begin stealing it and Afghans are made to believe that we are aiding and abetting it. Talk about a Taliban recruitment tool.
Bill| 1.7.11 @ 11:49AM
So, can anyone tell me how one differentiates a "moderate" or "mainstream" Muslim from a "radical" or "fundamentalist" Muslim when stuff like this happens?
mames| 1.7.11 @ 12:16PM
This is not a religion, it is a militaristic, political cult whose leader was a militaristic pig who made converts at the point of the sword and formed a cult out of a mismash of paganism and misquotes from the Old Testament. These animals started the crusades centuries ago and are still fighting it. Reason will not persuade we must take them out as they converge on out world. A religion is only as good as its founder. Jesus Christ is mine and he NEVER condoned force as a means to conversion, just the use of His Word. We must pray for these enemies and carry a pistol grip Mossberg.
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 12:41PM
Bill,
maybe I can help you out.
A "mainstream" moslem is a slave....and thinks it is pretty cool, evidently.
Conversely,
A "moderate" moslem just died...and does the BIG oopsie when aproaching the judgement bar of the Creator of the universe.
Picture it, Bill. Take a snapshot or three in your mind. First he does the ole' classic doubletake. "oops, this ain't paradise."
Then the question tries to form on his eternal lips: "Uh, where is Mohhamed the prophet?"
Then God begins the eternal version of a videotape of the guy's life here....and the man has to watch it in his inmost heart.
Then...just perhaps..... a just and loving Creator speaks to him one last time:
"Ahab, I spoke to your heart many times during your life. I know that you never heard my true name in your life, but I also know you heard me. How could you cut off your daughters' clitori?
How could you sell your beautiful daughters into a life of joyless slavery?
How could you countenence the murder of innocents?
Then, Bill.
Hear the words perhaps something like these.
"So Ahab, do you repent?"
Interesting scenario, huh?
Fred Flintstone| 1.7.11 @ 12:23PM
Have any of the right-wing US GOP hatemongers bothered to notice that the people trying to make a difference in Pakistan are educated liberals? Funny how the US version of your muslim caveman is more closely identified as a fundamental creationist christian republican brainwashed by a wealthy puppetmaster.
Doctor Right| 1.7.11 @ 12:39PM
You're a complete idiot.
You know NOTHING about Christianity of Islam.
Seen any self-identified Christian suicide-bombers lately, you sniveling jackass?
Those "Liberals" in Pakistan are promoting Religious tolerance and freedom, both things supported by the US Constitution that Conservatives love, and that Liberals in this country have recently admitted (Ezra Klein, anyone?) that they despise.
And it's the Liberal jack-offs like yourself and Obama who are playing footsie with Islamic terrororists.
SO again, little boy...You're an idiot.
You must be a dim-witted high school student, or a college professor. Either way, you're a liberal clown.
Fred Flintstone| 1.7.11 @ 12:59PM
Thank you for the compassionate comment Dr. Caveman. I feel the pain of your disorder. Now take your meds.
VBMax| 1.7.11 @ 1:16PM
I almost had to laugh...calling those of us who support freedom of conscience "hatemongers"
Orwellspeak, to say the least!
Fred Flintstone| 1.7.11 @ 3:02PM
I'm referring specifically to those (hatemongers) that believe the final solution is to bomb the whole region or conduct islamic genocide out of simplistic fear and ignorance. Self-RIGHTeous pseudo-patriots aren't the only US citizens that abhor the hate and death brought on us by islamic extremists. My observation was about left and right wing politics taken to mutual extremes in different cultures. Pinch your undies back out of your crack.
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 6:42PM
Dear Fred:
How do you square your views with child rape and stoning, which your beliefs invariably support?
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 6:34PM
Hah, take your meds! The dead giveaway that you are a mere child, or suffer sever arrested development.
How boring your ilk have become. The same tired rhetoric, that same sad retorts, with a nary a fact in your arsenal.
Yawn.
Casual Observer| 1.7.11 @ 7:52PM
I believe when the commenter Maha stated above that the people striving for modernization in Pakistan are the country's 'liberals', he was using the term 'liberal' in it's original classical sense: meaning liberty, freedom, natural rights of man versus the tyranny of the state. Modern 'liberalism', synonymous with 'Progressivism', has devolved into a form of Marxism which in fact embraces the philosophy of an all powerful state, and should be re-labeled as such.
Lifeofthemind | 1.7.11 @ 12:42PM
Pakistan was a bad idea from the start. It was a sop to the the ego of the disturbed M. Ali Jinnah and his love-hate relationships with England and with his Hindu ancestors as well as Shi'a coreligionists and the Sunni masses, whose language he did not speak. British India probably should have been divided into 4 parts, and not based on religion, when independence came. At this point it would be best to redraw the maps by giving India both Punjab and the Sind, uniting the Pashtun districts with Afghanistan, and creating a separate Baluchistan from Iranian, Afghan and Pakistani territory.
Dave Williams| 1.7.11 @ 12:53PM
I hope I live to see the day when some rogue American or Israeli pilot drops a big fat nuke on the Q'aba. A billion or so muslims cheesed off? GOOD>
MH| 1.7.11 @ 1:06PM
Ann Coulter had it absolutely correct when she said these people need to be forcibly civilized for the good of all mankind.
I don't recall who it was who said, in response to the question of "Who gets to judge what's civilized and what's not?", The Civilized get to judge, and if you can't understand that, you're not one of them.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 1:10PM
"forcibly civilized" is an oxymoron.
How does one accomplish that considering it's never occurred in the history of mankind.
George True | 1.7.11 @ 1:44PM
Sure it's happened before. Imperialist Japan and Nazi Germany were forcibly civilized in 1945. They have both been paragons of the international community ever since.
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 2:16PM
You could argue those countries were civilized. They had evil regimes occupying them but civilized nonetheless.
You have a country in Afghanistan that is uncivilized in the truest sense of the word. From my understanding, many, to this day, do not understand basic hygiene but know the intricacies of the operation of an AK-47 as well as any weapons specialist around the world.
They have a backward religion that didn't go through a reformation like others have.
They have no previous experience of living within a civilized society, so no frame of reference.
The only action the U.S. should take at this point is to exit the country not before having a nice heart-to-heart with Karzai, explaining in no uncertain terms what mortal consequence awaits his country if any future hostile action takes place against the U.S.
That, and a lot of prayer for the people of Afghanistan.
to "forcibly civilize", it will never happen.
idalily| 1.7.11 @ 3:00PM
It won't happen because it's not possible. The only thing that civilizes the Stone Age is time, and while there are a minority of enlightened souls in these Muslim countries, most of them are living and thinking in the Stone Age.
George True| 1.7.11 @ 9:16PM
You make a good point, Bob. Culturally, the German and Japanese peoples were civilized prior to fascist/imperialist regimes taking over their countries.
If a fringe group of people calling themselves Christians started blowing up Jews or Muslims in any Western countries, real Christians would hunt them down relentlessly. Real Christians would be vehemently denouncing them from the pulpits and staging mass rallies against them. The fact that so-called "moderate" Muslims do not do this against the radical Muslims who preach and commit violence tells me all I need to know about their culture.
Richard Baker| 1.7.11 @ 1:20PM
Fred:
So tell me. Where are the Episcopalian, Baptist, or Lutheran suicide bombers/assassins? (By the way, the Assassins were a Shia terror sect in the 11th-13th Century). Must have missed those stories in the paper. Hadn't heard those ministers were advocating the wholesale slaughter of those who disagree with their faith. Maybe you need to start taking medication, instead.
Musl Pak| 1.7.11 @ 1:44PM
Dear all, I'm indeed dismayed to read all the hate mail coming out from the representatives of the 'civilized' West (or so they seem to be). Although my few words may not change the skewed opinion of most of you guys, formulated over the years, from seeing biased news coverage of remote incidents unduly projected as norms; but for the record let me say this.
1. Religions don’t preach violence it’s the people of these religion. Muslims and Christians have justified their actions in history in the name of their religions. Ironically all believe in the same God but fight over Him as well. So please pressurize your government to pull out your forces from Afghanistan where they are perceived as occupational force first and foremost. Stop planning to snatch the mineral resources of that region. Request for them and you’ll get them.
2. About Pakistan, it’s a country only 63 years young and still evolving. Just think where was US 63rd year into its existence? Civil War was round the corner.
3. In Pakistan, Muslim majority lives generally in peace with their Christian, Hindus, Sikhs, Parsis and other minorities. But this does not make sellable sensational news for the World. Only one odd unfortunate incident of hate crime or injustice makes headline news thereby tarnishing the country’s overall image and creating loath for her in the hearts of the westerners.
4. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Violence only begets violence. So please have a heart. Stop talking about more war and killing. Support Pakistan’s silent majority in prevailing over the violent radical minority. This nation is not a cesspool of decadence.
5. Lastly, Peace and Patience is the only way out for this world. Otherwise the humanity as a whole is doomed.
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 6:40PM
Religions don't preach violence?
Quick, someone get this guy a copy of the Koran. Stat!
P.S. As far as your dismay about all the "hate" coming from the west; are you friggin serious!?! Compared to what? The love and warm fuzzies coming from the Middle East? What a joke.
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 2:56AM
Missboss,
These are very complicated matters where nothing is black or white.
I'll maintain that Islam does not teach violence. I suggest you to read Koran in totality and not take its statements out of context.
About love and warmth from Middle East, please come for yourself in the countries there and you'll be pleasantly surprised see how much welcomed you'll generally feel. Don't jump to conclusions on reading a few ill meaning articles.
missbosslady| 1.8.11 @ 10:24AM
Musl,
Are you serious!!!
Perhaps you could tell by my posting name that I am a woman. What possible allure could there be for a woman to go anywhere near the Mid East?
As a female I can think of nothing more repugnant than Islam and the chance that I might ever step foot in a muslim nation is ZERO.
You have no chance of convining me to appreciate the religion or the region. There is nothing that you could ever say that would stop me from daily thanking God that I, as a woman, was born in the United States. I have an interesting life story that I know, without any doubt, would have been impossible anywhere but here.
No woman, with an ounce of self-respect could be attracted to a religion or land that holds them in such low regard.
No sale!
missbosslady| 1.8.11 @ 10:25AM
Oh, and as far as discerning black and white, it ain't that complicated.
I certainly can tell the difference.
Chris| 1.8.11 @ 1:46PM
hey missy
Dubai is fun! I've been there, lots of hot chics around there in cool dresses too. No issues there....
Richard Ong| 1.7.11 @ 7:56PM
>
This Wikipedia article, for one, makes clear that blasphemy in Pakistan is widely used to deadly effect to gain personal advantage:
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Pakistan
We have the instant case of vigilantism as well as one where a policeman dispatched a man accused of "blasphemy" with a hammer while the accused was lying in his hospital bed. I say this is par for the course there these days. If you tell me it wasn't so before Zia came on the scene, fine. Make that case, though I'll bet it was an artifact of British thinking that persisted after the creation of Pakistan. The idea of a secular state is wildly un-Islamic.
George True| 1.7.11 @ 1:54PM
Musl Pak: I am sure you are sincere in what you are saying. Unfortunately, Islam does preach violence, and it always has. Such is codified in the Koran. Furthermore, it is questionable whether Muslims are worshiping the same God as other religions. Any alleged holy book that exhorts its followers to kill and/or subjugate any who are not co-religionists cannot be from the God who created the universe. Muslims are unwittingly worshiping he who rebelled against God. The only way the violence will ever end is to acquaint every Muslim with this inescapable fact,
Musl Pak| 1.7.11 @ 2:20PM
Dear George,
Thank you for your response. I'm glad you aired your views and gave me a chance to clarify this perception.
I've read Koran and have tried to look for exactly what is mentioned by you and many others like you in this world. Please be rest assured Koran does not teach violence or forceful conversions. It is actually a religion of peace. Yes, one statement may be taken in isolation or out of context and a complete inference drawn on it, but to say that Koran codifies violence is indeed incorrect.
About your comments whether we all believe in the same God. Well the God of Adam is the God of Noah and the God of Abraham, Moses, Jesus and finally of Mohammed.
Through out history and even before these religions were born, men have been fighting and the three main causes have been women, wealth or land. I don't seen Crusades as a fight between two religions, these were wars purely fought for economic interest between Europeans and Arabs; and Gods two religions were twisted in such a way so as to make a common man on both sides, fight for a cause dear to his heart and what better cause than his religion.
My friend, we need to rise above these petty differences and defeat the few evil conspirators amongst us who thrive on division and destruction of us gullible majority.
Peace be with all of us be they Christians, Muslims or of any other religion. After all we are children of the same God.
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 6:54PM
Seems to me the Crusades definitely were religion centered, as was Lepanto.
The koranic quotes: Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews. (Sahih Muslim, 41:6985; see also 41:6981-84 and Sahih Bukhari, 4:52:176,177 and 4:56:791)
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 3:09AM
Occam,
I'm so glad that you gave me this opportunity. If the West's despise for Islam is based on this quote then let me tell you, its taken out of context.
First of all its not a Koranic quote. This is a 'Hadith', something that Prophet Mohammed reportedly said to one of his friends Abu Huraira. So Koran is certainly out of this now.
In those days Islam was struggling to make a mark in Arabia and was naturally being resisted by Jews who were the predominant force in the region especially trade and commerce. This was the time of battles where the few followers of Islam were struggling to survive. In such a challenging situation this statement was quoted by one of Mohammed's companions to somehow pep up the sagging morale of his fellow Muslims.
Again as I have been saying earlier, please get your facts right and see the whole picture.
Bob Grant| 1.8.11 @ 12:32AM
"...My friend, we need to rise above these petty differences and defeat the few evil conspirators amongst us who thrive on division and destruction of us gullible majority..."
If you are sincere, publicly condemn Osama Bin Laden right now!
For my part, I will condem...uh...hmm...letssee...sigh....hmm...uh...
well, you've gotta help me out. I cannot think of a Christian terrorist at the moment...hmm...I'll get back with you on that one.
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 3:20AM
Bob,
Assuming that Osama Bin Laden is the real deal here and not some implant or escape goat, let me say this
"I condemn Osama Bin Laden for the heinous acts of terrorism he has committed in the name of my religion Islam. His acts of terrorism have no religious or moral justifications and hence would go to hell".
I'll even go to the extent of saying that with his acts he has done no service to Islam or its followers. Infact he has played into the hands of conspirators who want to draw a wedge between the two great religions of the world and their naive and good followers. Now who are those conspirators, benefactors or third parties (to say the least) who are benefiting from this divide is anyones guess.
For your part you can begin with condemning the invasion your government did of Iraq and Afghanistan on the pretext of making this world a safer place to live and in the process killed tens of thousands of innocent people if not hundreds of thousands. Can you condemn your ex-President for that who I'll refer not as a Christian here cause then there will be no difference between your and my thinking.
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 2:01PM
Musl,
Use your left hand to clean up, liar.
Your so-called update to the Holy Bible says it all, and you are FOBIDDEN to question it.
Read your own stupid Koran, stupid.
(see my post above, folks.)
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 2:15PM
George,
I'm sorry. I was crude. I also lived in moslem countries, and being left handed, I always slipped my left thumb into a belt-loop to keep from "offending" them.
if a moslem ever greets you with his left hand, he is giving you a deadly insult. I will leave the rest to your imagination.
Islam is the enemy, even to moslems themselves.
Musl Pak| 1.7.11 @ 2:35PM
Dear Ken,
Your use of unparliamentary language speaks volume of your personality. But should I generalize this kind of attitude for all Christians? Certainly not.
Sorry for having experienced any unwarranted situation in this Muslim country you lived in. Again you are confusing culture with religion. Please tell me in which civilized country do you, as a custom, shake hands with your left hand?
As Mr. Schulze said it rightly; there are extremists in all religions of the world including Islam and Christianity. This does not essentially make these religions bad. So next time you wanna ask a question on any religion don't go running to a fanatic.
idalily| 1.7.11 @ 3:04PM
Sorry, Musl, but you cannot separate culture from religion in countries that allow no other religion the right to free speech and practice. In nearly all Islamic nations today, your religion is your culture, and your culture derives from your religion. You cannot, at this point in history, separate them. Nice try.
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 3:25PM
Idalily, Islam is a major religion in countries spread across North Africa, Middle East, South Asia (about 170 Mio in India too), Central Asia and down to South East Asia. The most populace Muslim country is not Saudi Arabia, Iran or Pakistan. It is Indonesia. If you mean to say that all these countries spread across half of the world have the same culture then you are sadly mistaken, my friend. The predicament as I stated earlier with most of the Americans is that sitting in US and getting whatever biased information from their local news network, they think that they know the world rightly. Please understand that the world out there is very different from what it is made out to be.
Unless an average simple and good at heart American is not made scared of the big bad world out there, how can the US War Machinery and Corporations make billions of money from war hysteria. This goes all the way to Washington.
I guess I have said enough. If you don't believe, please come to any Muslim country especially the oil rich Kingdoms and see for yourself, what beautiful lives and lucrative jobs the Westerners especially the Americans enjoy. And yes there are churches, temples and even a very few synagogues (since the non Israeli jews are also very few by choice).
In history we have had such phobias against the Indigenous Americans (earlier known as Red Indians), then Blacks and now the Muslims.
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 7:00PM
Dear Musl:
Please tell me the name of one country that is:
a) predominantly Muslim.
b)Has a significant Jewish population (over 200,000---there are 250,000 Jews in the Chicagoland area) that is prosperous,and breeding to replacement (like Israel).
c) Has an internationally regarded Free Press and Freedom of Religion, where Jews are free to build synagogues essentially wherever they want.
I'll wait while you come up with the answer. I'll wait a long time, because there aren't any.
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 7:02PM
Dear Musl:
there were 800,000 Jews in the Arab countries before 1948. Why did they leave, was there any coercion, and what happened to their land?
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 3:36AM
Dear Occam,
Honestly I don't know of any predominantly Muslim country having a sizable Jewish population.
But then the reason is not that much maltreatment or victimization as it is economics.
There is no denying the fact that US and Israel are much more economically prosperous countries than Muslim dominated countries in the Middle East. US is the land of opportunities not only for Jewish people but also for Hindus, Buddhist, Muslims and other people of the world. Most of the people if given a chance would want to migrate there solely for better economic prospects.
Hence the natural trend of Jews would also be to move to US and even to their promised land of Israel which by the way is also mentioned in Judaism.
So the underlying reasons for such migrations to Israel and US are economic but to get the gullible West's sympathies the reasons for migration are projected as religious intolerance in Muslims countries.
Hope you didn't have to wait long enough for my answer.
missbosslady| 1.8.11 @ 10:29AM
Musl,
This statement by you is a crediblity killer!
"But then the reason is not that much maltreatment or victimization as it is economics."
missbosslady| 1.8.11 @ 10:33AM
Musl,
This statement by you is a crediblity killer!
"But then the reason is not that much maltreatment or victimization as it is economics."
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 12:10PM
Thanks.
I'm entitled to my humble opinion and you are indeed entitled to disagree.
Sweeney| 1.7.11 @ 2:40PM
Musl did get it right. His (or her) thinking that our opinions are based on "biased news coverage of remote incidents" is absolutely spot-on. However, I would describe media coverage favors Muslims due to the fact that their reports are infrequent and downplayed enough so as to go unnoticed.
The rest of that comment is so riddled with lies that this person can be no less than criminally insane.
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 2:51PM
Thanks Sweeney for partly agreeing with me. At least we have made a start.
About the 'criminally insane' part. WOW! Thats a very interesting statement. Could you kindly elaborate in which statement of mine I've given you this impression. And yes, I'm a 'he'. :-)
Schulze| 1.7.11 @ 2:17PM
Of course this incident is directly related to colonialism. Colonialism has bled all of the third world dry and forced it's own views of "civilization" upon it. As a result, people hunger, people are uneducated and, following this, people are prone to become extremists.
The USA, too, has it's fair share in all this sad kind of bullshit. Bush senior distrubuted money and weapons to extremists in the nineties in nearby Afghanistan to push out the soviets, and Saudi Arabia, a kingdom with no constitution, is still one big buddy of U.S. administration.
Of course, this is a scandal. But it is no less scandalous to declare these people the satan of modern world. Once it were blacks, than jews, now muslims? Most of the 1,6 BILLION muslims in the world never did anything wrong. You must understand that ALL religions harbour extremists. There are a few in islam, there are a few extremist jews, and there sure as hell are a few extremist christians. Just look around in your own fine dump of a country!
Musl Pak| 1.7.11 @ 2:44PM
I fully agree with you Schulze.
It is our job as the moderate believers of the same God to rise above the petty differences created in the name of our religions and finish off the extremism and hate prevalent among the vocal few in our societies.
Muslim moderates are on the back foot trying to do the very same. My question is, are my Christian moderates doing the same in their backyard? Seeing from the e-mail exchanges on this forum, it seems a challenge over there too.
idalily| 1.7.11 @ 3:10PM
Musl, you'll have to give Americans some time here. People of your religion murdered 3,000 innocent members of our citizenry on our own soul only ten years ago. I saw and heard very little sympathy from moderate Muslims at the time. If you were there, you were pretty quiet. We may need to "rise above the petty differences" but many of your fellow Muslims have much bigger things to rise above. Murdering Americans in an unprovoked attack, for example. And I don't hear hatred of Muslims preached at my local church, but I can safely say they are at the local mosque. When it comes to pointing fingers of blame, please start a little closer to your own backyard.
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 3:36PM
Please do accept my heartfelt condolences again on the sad and untimely demise of not just American Christians but also people of other faith and nationalities. It was indeed a horrendous attack on humanity that day not just on US. People from around the world died. Let me assure you that Muslims around the world shuddered from this event and were indeed saddened but regret to say that they did not get projected on western media. Only a few, barely in hundreds in a population of more than 1.6 Bio aired their happiness to get media attention . And you might not believe me, but some of the jubilation shots specially in West Bank were not even shot on that day. These were shots taken from some earlier jubilant event. You might think I'm lying but I know since I was based in an Arab country then.
And yes you are right we have a few fanatics teaching hate in the name of religion but so are many in Christian churches and the best answer for all such fanatics irrespective of their religion is to admonish or just ignore them. They are mad men from around the world.
Regards
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 4:19PM
Sorry, but admitting "...we have a few fanatics teaching hate..." is disingenuous at best.
When you make a statement such as that, everyone knows what you are doing. You are attempting to force a stalemate so the debate will end but is very insulting to the people who seriously think about this topic.
We are not fools here.
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 4:29PM
Sorry to hurt your feeling Bob.
I agreed that there are fanatics and I also gave a solution of how to deal with them.
What is your suggested solution.
Remember, its easy to kill a person but very difficult to kill his cause that gets transferred to others. This is how violence only spreads more violence and all become terrorist. Its just that some wear a Uniform and others wear a Turban.
Do you have any other solution?
Bob Grant| 1.7.11 @ 4:47PM
A good start would be to cut the moral equivalency crap.
You know as well as I that there are more than just a few "...moral fanatics teaching hate...". Islamic extremism has permeated the entire world.
Christian extremism is virtually non-existent, if at all.
The is no discussion to be had if we cannot begin from this reality. To do so would be insulting to all but the most feeble minded!
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 5:00PM
Bob I wanted to disengage but am compelled to respond to you.
My American boss once told me, "I see no difference between O Bin Laden and Bush Jr. Both of them claim that God speaks directly to them. Both of them feel that they are fighting for God and both of them are killing innocent civilians (as collateral damage) in their righteous war against the other (presumed infidel/non believers)".
Its just that one has been termed a Moslem while the other President of United States. So my friend like I've been saying two wrongs are not making a right and both sides are unjustified in their actions. And who is getting killed in the end the innocent Americans, Afghans, Paks and others in the cross fire.
We have to give peace and reasoning a chance. Violence will not get us anywhere. Can we please agree on this?
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 6:48PM
Musl, of all your posts here today, this last one was by far the most idiotic.
Good grief man! We are not fools here.
Pedal this mush elsewhere.
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 8:22PM
Ooops! Peddle, not pedal.
That was driving me crazy.
Mathew| 1.7.11 @ 11:57PM
Dear Musl,
I am impressed by your patience and composure in the midst of so much emotional irrationality against you.
Nonetheless I am disturbed by the lack of sane voice from the muslim community. You being one of the very rare one. We need to hear more from right thinking muslims and less from crazy, hateful ones.
Thank you.
ps: would you write to me? confabulating77 at yahoo dot com. Thanks
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 3:48AM
Dear Mathew,
Thanks a lot for your kind words. Indeed appreciated.
You are right in saying that the sane voices which finally reach you are far and few and the simple reason is the lack of common forums. Take this for example, I guess of the tens of opinions aired here only three or four came from the Muslim region because most are not even aware of these many discussion forums in the West.
Secondly most of the moderate muslims I know avoid getting into such discussions on fear of being branded as extremists, fanatics or apologists by their Western counterparts. The fear of getting tracked down by the vigilant government agencies also persist hence internet silence is preferred.
Lastly religion is a very personal matter for all of us and after a while I see people irrespective of their beliefs loosing their composure and stooping to irrational, nonsensical and at times inflammatory teasing which is not helpful towards promoting logical discussion.
But I guess we have to rise above such challenges for the common good of homo sapiens because we are humans first and Christians, Muslims, Jews later.
Schulze| 1.7.11 @ 2:19PM
@previous post: Of course, it was in the eighties, to correct my mistake.
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 2:45PM
Schultzie,
Are you moslem, athiest, or dhimini?
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 2:51PM
Folks,
Musl has won an extra virgin with his "holy lies" here.
Hey musl. I don't hate moslems. I merely am saddened by their self-imposed slavery.
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 3:06PM
If wanting to make peace between two great religions by relaying their true essence is a "holy lie", then my friend..... so be it.
And you can keep the 'virgin' too. :-)
Anyway I've said enough and I rest my case now.
May our God Shower you with his Benevolence and Beneficence. Amen.
Richard Baker| 1.7.11 @ 3:05PM
Musl:
If I disagree here in the US with my Christian bretheren then we disagree. In Islam it's blasphemy and death. Why do you think there is a rise in Moslem honor killings in the US?
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 3:44PM
Richard,
Are you telling me there are no killings in America on disagreement? Its just that Muslims tend to hide their heinous act behind Islam. Despicable indeed.
Let me explain; Malays, Indonesians, Kazakhs, Bosnians etc are also Muslims, but they do not do honor killing in the name of religion since its not there in their culture. However, some Arabs or South Asians do it unfortunately since its part of their culture. Religion is yet again a tool abused to justify their crime. It might have had worked earlier but doesn't work anymore.
So again, mate, its culture of those lands not Islam.
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 3:50PM
Richard,
save your breath.
Musl is trapped in outer darkness. There is an Arabic term ...Takania? (sic) that literally translated means "holy lies" to be told to infidels, uh us.
Somehow, these poor lost souls think that God needs slaves...or wants slaves.....duh!
The Bible teaches that God created mankind in fellowship with Him.
These poor souls picture our Creator as some sort of overgrown Saudi King...but with no morals whatsoever...just a slave driver for His personal amusement.
Martin| 1.7.11 @ 4:06PM
Hey Ken,
Give this Musl guy a break. He's just trying to be nice.
I guess you've not had a good experience with Saudis and their version of Islam.
VBMax| 1.7.11 @ 4:30PM
*Taqiyya -- Religious Deception
From jihadwatch.org
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 4:47PM
Thanks Martin!
Mr. Texas, I believe your myopic understanding of Islam has come from some extremist in Saudi Arabia while you were there for reasons better known to you.
Islam is much easier and relaxed than what you have made it out to be.
But any way I'm not here to convince or convert anyone. On the whole I enjoyed this healthy debate with all of you.
Peace be with all of us irrespective of our creed, culture, religion or country.
martin j smith| 1.7.11 @ 3:57PM
I smell the smell of geoprge Soros in some of the postings like for example Musl Pak and Fred Flinstone name a few. When you have posts who give you their sarcastic insulting attitude I think you can bet they are operatives not those who have serious facts. Let me give an example: Would a Jew who is Orthodox be welcome in Saudi Arabia and be allowed to pray in a Temple of Jewish prayer un hindered ? In fact would a Jew be permitted to fly saw from Tel Aviv to Ryad ?there is a lot of talk about so called Islamophobia in the US. But I contend that here is more phobia of the West in Muslim countries than the other way around. However when a group of Muslims come here and flip the bird to the American people of the Ground Zero mosqu ethat Is Islamophobia. Those Muslims who are leaders of the Muslim community in this case arrogantly deny traitions, sentiment and the emotions connected to the area and persist in flipping the bird so to speak. Well in this particular case those leaders--not all Muslims--are seen in a very negative light indeed as well they should. So, if Muslims want to be treated with respect it goes both ways, not one way. Treat those who practice other religions in your country with respect and it will be reciprocated. treat the culture and traditions of your new home country appropriately and you will be given respect. There have been too many incidents where this has not happened. The ground zero mosque is but one example.
Musl| 1.7.11 @ 4:11PM
Thanks for your remarks Martin.
I guess we have an understanding that there are good people and bad people in all religions and that does not necessarily make any religion bad, just its few frustrated, misguided and extremist souls.
So please avoid generalization or stereo typing.
Occam's Tool| 1.7.11 @ 7:04PM
Please, a predominantly Muslim country where there is a robust and prosperous Jewish minority that builds new synagogues. The answer is that there are few Jews in Muslim countries, and not "by choice," BUT BECAUSE THERE IS NO FREEDOM THERE.
WeMustResist| 1.8.11 @ 8:08AM
Yes there are good and bad people in every religion, but not all religions have bad doctrines. A religion that believes God to be full of hate and lies has two bad doctrines. Yes religion is a very personal matter and we cannot tell a mans religious beliefs by a label, only by his words and/or deeds. So Islam may be relaxed for some but the religion of Mohammed (who started the religion) is not relaxed. Yes there are fanatics all around the world but the best way to deal with them is to resist them. They must never be allowed to think they are right. They are wrong. We should contest them as often as we reasonably can. I see you are trying hard to be fair Musl and I wish you good luck.
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 12:21PM
Thank you mate.
I'm just trying to follow the real religion of Muhammed. Religion of peace, compassion and tolerance and indeed resisting the fanatics in my backyard, who have distorted this religion to gain their own political objectives.
Your good luck is truly valued. I'm sure you are also resisting your own fanatics present in your home turf promoting hatred and war.
Louis Jenkins| 1.8.11 @ 3:47PM
From the WRS blog a small snippet:
"All this is increasingly obvious, particularly to those not brain-altered in institutions of higher learning or on the oligarchy’s payroll. On all occasions when the public has a chance to express itself on related issues such as immigration, bilingual education, gayization or dhimmization, the people overwhelmingly reject the diversity project. The ruling elite continues implementing it nonetheless by a series of increasingly totalitarian measures, including judicial nullification of inconvenient plebiscites, new laws explicitly at odds with the will of the people, persecution of “crimes of intolerance,” and executive rulings that circumvent the apparatus of democracy."
Our law makers simply do not care. And they have mouth pieces who speak for them.
Dan| 1.7.11 @ 4:18PM
If it is left to Obama and Holder they will be on our side of the world very soon. In fact, my guess, is there are a great number of them already here using our own laws against us.
A.C.Guard| 1.7.11 @ 4:30PM
These crazies are in the UK now and out birthing British citizens, Within 25 years the UK will be an Islamic country with sharia law. It will happen here too if we allow it. As a start do not elect far left liberals and somehow get us away from Political Correctness which insures radical Muslims ( is that an oxymoron ) will take over our country.
Richard Ong| 1.7.11 @ 8:13PM
Right!
Tim the Enchanter| 1.7.11 @ 4:59PM
By the way, what's with the quotes around "cooties"? I thought that everyone knows that girls have cooties! One of the first things I learned in kindergarten.
Ed| 1.7.11 @ 5:04PM
As a service academy graduate, a Vietnam veteran, and a hard core libertarian, I agree. Get out and get out now. Leave these people alone to kill each other. If the Taliban and Al Quaida come back, blast them with drones and the heck with civilian casualties
Alex| 1.8.11 @ 4:19AM
Yeah right Ed,
We need to get out from the Ban Land first. Even then if they come after us, then we blast them alright.
post*tenebras*lux| 1.8.11 @ 1:13PM
Ed, President Bush had "closed" down the war in Afghanistan. Obowbow opened it back up as the "good" war.
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 5:52PM
Interesting article coming on the heels of being lectured by Franklin and Ray, et al, that I need to make the distinction between the fanatics and the moderates.
Pish!
First, it is not my job to make the distinction.
Second, as far as I'm concerned, there is no distintion to be made.
I find it nothing short of sheer lunacy to overlook circumstances such as this article highlights.
Holy cr*p, we're talking about people that will kill over a cartoon! Exactly what kind of dialogue is one supposed to carry on with that kind of mind set?
When the world puts its collective foot down, and calls a spade a spade, then maybe the so-called moderates will distinctly separate themselves from the radicals.
Until that time, I'm with the author, let's depart the region and let them cannibalize each other.
Norman Conquest| 1.7.11 @ 6:33PM
As usual, Winston Churchill summed it up best:
How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy.
The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.
A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities, but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it.
No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilization of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilization of ancient Rome.
missbosslady| 1.7.11 @ 6:56PM
Norman,
You left out the part where Churchill stated that these cirumstances were all the fault of the imperial West and future generations of the Bush family.
Serioulsy, you can go even further back than Winston to find the same observations about Islam, which of course shoots gigantic holes in Mosl's ramblings.
Mosl, read some history books, it will go a long way toward your enlightenment.
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 4:36AM
Miss Boss,
I've read your highly charged point of views and all I see in them is an anguished and perplexed soul looking for redemption. God Help you in that.
About your advise to me about History books, I feel that they are not more than story books written by authors to propagate their points of view over the naive readers. There are enough history books written on atrocities, killings and even genocide committed by
1. Christians over Muslims
2. Christians over Jews around WWII Germany
2. Catholics over Protestants
3. Catholics over Orthodox Christians
4. White christian settlers over indigenous Americans
5. Christian Europeans over African Slaves
6. Christians over Christians (US Civil War, Word Wars etc)
The list goes on.....
Now does this make Christianity or all Christians bad? No!
Same is the case with Islam and Muslims. Have a heart and please learn to differentiate between criminals and their religions.
Your glass of water awaits you.
missbosslady| 1.8.11 @ 10:40AM
Musl,
Let me reiterate, as a female, there is absolutely nothing that you can say that will convince me of the "goodness" of Islam as it is practiced in the world today.
I will not be Kate to your Petruchio!
You can point to the sun until you're blue in the face. I will not call it the moon!
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 12:24PM
Miss Boss,
I'm not here to convince or convert you. Just want to explain to you my side of the story.
Have a good life!
missbosslady| 1.8.11 @ 1:39PM
Mosl,
You have made many statements, putting them forth as fact, subsequently claiming your entitled to your opinion. Indeed you are entitled to your opinion, but not your own facts.
Your disingenuousness does not go unnoticed. If one goes back and reviews your comments they will find a false humility preceeding a backhanding in most instances.
Your claim that your posts are not meant to convince are the most dishonest. Clearly, in several posts you are trying to convince the reader, isn't that often the point of these forums?
Are you trying to deceive the dhimmi? One cannot help but wonder. Of course, what really stands out, to me in particular, is your lack of response to my posts concerning women and Islam. Frankly, I understand why you wouldn't, but very telling indeed.
As far as having a good life, I'm a free woman in a free country, so a good life I do have and as you and I both know, if I lived in a muslim country that certainly would not be the case.
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 3:48PM
Miss Boss,
At least we can agree to disagree? Thats a start.
Women in Islamic countries live normal, progressive and secure lives. They enjoy equal opportunities and are entitled to education. They make good doctors, lawyers, engineers, pilots, business executives, bankers, scientists, nurses, educationists, actresses and what not.
Yes some unfortunate incidents of violence and injustice do prevail but they are as common or uncommon as in any other part of the world. Unfortunately the ones occurring here are duly reported on international media thus spreading an overall twisted image of that Muslim country and Islam.
Having said that, women across the world have to be generally careful from aggressive, violent and mentally deranged psychopathic men and thats not limited to just Muslim countries only.
Following is an excerpt I wish to share with you from an valid source on Women's position in Islam.
Quote "A woman was in a miserable state before Islam. She was subject to humiliation, injustice and oppression. She was buried alive for fear of poverty. Also, because women were used as a means for gaining money and for prostitution, which is a source of disgrace.
By the advent of Islam Shari'a honors the woman, gives her natural position in life and returns her freedom. In general, she is like a man except in some rulings and regulations that befit her physiologically.
The woman in Islam ranks high as a daughter, sister, wife and mother. Islam grants the woman her personal and financial freedom as well as independence to behave within the Shari'a limits and good customs that Islam sanctions, i.e. without committing what is Haram such as displaying her charm, misdeeds and uncovering her body. At the same time, man has freedom, but within Shari'a limitations and good and useful customs that Islam sanctions.
So, it is not true to say that women do not rank high in Islam. Whoever wants Muslim women to be free from her modesty, morals, honor and religion wants misery for her, to overburden her and to ask her to do what she naturally cannot" Unquote.
For better understanding women's position in Islam you can go to Google and type the words 'Women in Islam' and you'll get various legit sites. I wanted to forward you some but am unable to do so.
Since you have sworn never to set foot in a muslim country maybe these sites will help you better understand in general women's position in Islamic countries. Otherwise come and see for yourself with an open mind.
In the end, I'm not trying to convince you but just trying to show you the other side of the picture. Inconvenience is regretted.
Bob Grant| 1.8.11 @ 10:52AM
Christians over Jews?
I bet this is the first time in your LIFE you referred to Jews as victims.
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 12:30PM
No Bob,
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Jews were victims of Nazi Holocaust. I've been to one of the concentration camps in Dachau, Germany and seen the horrible place myself. Infact there was one muslim lady Dr. Mehrun Nissa who was also burnt in one of the human ovens and her body fat used in soap by the Nazis.
So I can fully sympathize with Jews on Holocaust.
darcy| 1.10.11 @ 2:33AM
Quite so, missbosslady. Martin Luther wrote "On War Against the Turks" (ca1528); makes for very interesting reading that is even more harsh on Islam than is Churchill. I recommend it.
We must never, ever forget that taqiyya is a mark of virtue for Muslims which permits them to lie through their teeth to "infidels" in the furtherance of their grand caliphate enterprise. Trust none of them.
Whereas, to Christians, lying is a sin, and is roundly denounced from the pulpit and among Christians themselves.
Chris| 1.7.11 @ 6:58PM
Islam is a religion founded by a murderous madman for murderous madmen. When Muslims blow people up they are just following in the Muhammad's bloody footsteps. There is no such thing as 'moderate' Islam. Islam is and always was a barbaric death cult masquerading as a religion. If satan devised his own religion, it would be indistinguishable from the religion of Muhammad
(MHRIH).
George True| 1.7.11 @ 8:19PM
Satan did design Islam. The "Allah" who appeared to Mohammed was in fact Satan masquerading as God.
John II| 1.8.11 @ 12:51AM
It wasn't "Allah" who communicated the Qur'an to Mohammed. It was an angel. And the angel wasn't Gabriel.
When you think about it, though, the "Allah" of Islam appears to be a self-appointed god of utterly arbitrary Will, including most prominently the will to destroy. Not exactly the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. But remarkably redolent of the aforementioned angel. The one called Lucifer.
Aunt Bee | 1.7.11 @ 8:46PM
Then why are the borders and shores wide open and have been since nine eleven 2001?
Jack| 1.8.11 @ 12:00AM
Speaking of people giving in to irrational fears and delusions! You can look to the Global Warming extremists to see that same kind of unfounded hysteria in the so called civilized world. The planet is getting older but as a civilization we are not getting any wiser just more techie.
Osamas Pajamas| 1.8.11 @ 1:05AM
You're wrong about one thing, Tucker --- they're not "on the other side of the world" --- this scum is here and now building more and more "houses of worship" for the cult of Mohamed.
Shirley| 1.8.11 @ 4:17AM
These are the people our young military personell are fighting and dying for? Bring our guys and and gals home and let them keep fighting themselves.
Big J| 1.8.11 @ 7:49AM
I'm not sure if it's been said yet, but I feel an important point needs to be made.
Islam is not so much a religion as it is a political movement with a religious aspect to it (simply cover for the truly powerful members to ultimately rule the world).
As long as it is classified as a religion, human nature being what it is, Islam will be tolerated. Pretty neat trick if you ask me.
The three basic tenets include conversion, taxation, then destruction. That may be over simplified, but that's Islam in a nutshell.
Over yonder, the biggest, baddest MoFo rules. That's the way it's been for a hell of a lot longer than we've been around, and nothing's gonna change that, baby.
Maybe the majority of the turban-wearers want what we've got, but if so, they have to rise up on their own. After all, we had to be pushed to our limits before taking on the most powerful military on the planet, tossing their tea in the harbor. The fact that we did it on our own makes our freedom and our way of life so much more valuable.
I thought for a moment that the Iranians were going to make the leap. From what I understand, the majority of them are modernized, and want to emulate the West. Unfortunately our Manchurian in Chief couldn't take a few minutes off the links to give them a shout-out. Sadly, I feel this is one of the biggest missed opportunities of this administration. Many times a little encouragement is all it takes to give the little guy the strength to punch that bully in the nose.
Our Middle Eastern policy (if you can call it that) has been an abject failure for a lot longer than I have been around. For some unknown reason, "peace in the Middle East" has been the Holy Grail, the Brass Ring of administration after administration - for over HALF A CENTURY! Enough already. I can't imagine Hillary has a better reset button than the Peanut Farmer did - it has got to stop!
Again, at the risk of over-simplifying, here are the only answers, as far as I'm concerned:
1. Pull out. I mean every last one of them. Bring our men and women home. Hell, we're not letting them fight anyway, and the 800 pound gorilla says we'll never win, no matter what we do.
2. No more money. I mean not one red cent, to no one, no how. One thing we should know by now is that the crooks and Mullahs are the only ones benefiting from it. The majority of the region is still oppressed (I defer you to the half a century comment above).
3. The Chicago Way. They bring a knife, you bring a gun. They put one of yours in the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue. Now that's change you can believe in. Within 24 hours of finding out who perpetrated the horror of 9/11 and where he was, we should have turned those mountains to glass. "Sorry ya'll, but I was cleaning it and it went off!". Brute force is the only thing these nut jobs understand. Just look at how they live, whipped into submission over the fear of being stoned to death? A light weight nuke would probably keep Achmadena-whatever's mouth shut for years to come.
* Pardon the length of this rant, but someone's gotta say it.
One last thing:
I met #43 back in 2008, shook his hand. It was the experience of a lifetime, by the way. I listened to a 30 minute speech by the man (no teleprompter, no notes). It turns out he is not the ignorant boob that the Left would have you believe. The man is extremely intelligent, and a serious history buff.
I saw and understood his "Middle Eastern Policy" (I guess you might call it the Bush Doctrine during a vice presidential debate or something). Unfortunately, he was viewing the region through rose colored glasses.
You could take out 15 dictators in that region and try to force feed democracy to 15 fledgling countries, and it just wouldn't work. They didn't earn it, you see. It doesn't mean squat to them. Give it a few years, and you have a new, bigger, badder MoFo running the show, sending his good little Muslims over here to blow us up.
I have a lot more to say on the subject, but this is turning into one seriously long a$$ rant, so I'll defer to a later date.
Nice article, by the way.
Bob Grant| 1.8.11 @ 10:36AM
You sir should be the next Secretary of State.
"...sorry yall, I was just cleaning it when it went off..." heh, heh,
post*tenebras*lux| 1.8.11 @ 1:21PM
Big J, remember the "reset" button Pantsuits gave to Putin?
Big J| 1.8.11 @ 3:48PM
That was what I was alluding to.
Islam Is The Cum Of Satan!| 1.8.11 @ 7:59AM
Look at the shitface of that smiling goat molester! It tells more about the religion of piss than any liberal trashsite!
Eric Millage| 1.8.11 @ 8:12AM
Wow Tucker, you really kicked off quite a hearty debate !
I think this type of open dialogue is quite healthy.
I found many comments vert insightful .
One thing which is obvious however is our need to be able to present our points of views without personally attacking one another.
I think we are all better listeners when we keep our discourse civil.
Who Knows?| 1.8.11 @ 11:51AM
For consideration---
Sunday, May 04, 2008
Norman Podhoretz & P.J. O'Rourke Rock!
Zounds! Egads! Yikes! Or, most appropriately for today’s wordy excursion into the past, WOW, man!
Ten years or so ago, I happened to be where libraries received too many books to sell, so there was always a place with interesting free ones, which I regularly perused in order to cull those that I liked. These days the situation is vastly different.
Still, yesterday I marched to the local library, read the regular papers, and completed the biography of Ikkyu, who died in 1481. What a blast from the past! The tiny room that sells old library books sucked me in, for the first time in years. I quickly stopped looking, walked out, and there it was---maybe ten or so FREE books.
Carefully I checked them out, and almost the last one grabbed my present attention, mightily---“Breaking Ranks” by Norman Podhoretz, from 1979! Since these days, and for some ten years previously, or so, I’ve been enjoying so much edifying content on the Internet, one of the sites that stands out is the “Contentions” part of Commentary Magazine, and this is where, of course, Mr. Podhoretz made his name.
Well, this book from almost THIRTY years ago is a political memoir that started out as a letter to explain to his still-young son, John, how he evolved into a “Neoconservative”.
What a trip down my own memory lane! So many of the radical authors who became my “mentors” seem to have been directly involved with, if not discovered and promulgated by, good old Norm! There’s Norman Brown and Paul Goodman, just for starters. I’m only up to page 100 of 365, which writes up to about 1960.
Then, today, as I read my normal sparse Internet stuff, there he was---P.J. O’Rourke, with his latest witty take on it all.
Ah, age and aging does have its benefits and privileges. To get to receive the wisdom from those two OLD radicals, P.J. and Norman, why all I can say is---WOW!
In the weird science category, it is claimed that some sensitive people can simply handle very old fragments---say an Indian arrowhead---and thus experience the whole ancient scene surrounding it.
Something like this is happening for moi, as I can’t help but freely allow the timely connections in my own life to arise. That is, keeping many plates in the air, for example, I can “be” in 1979 as Norman writes this book, myself, and whatever year he’s remembering---if I was alive then, that is. I can even conjure the milieu, generally, of those years when I wasn’t personally alive.
All this is meant to consciously allow the wound of the Heart to be felt, which brings me to today’s many centuries of consideration’s conclusion.
In Ikkyu’s time, Japan suffered horribly through a civil war that devastated property and killed many thousands, causing rampant starvation and suffering. So, let’s keep in mind those days when the “political” divide was absolute, with the actual physical fight for power so widespread, along with the entire span of time that Norman Podhoretz has lived. And, what about right now?
It sure seems to me that the real chickens ARE coming home to not only roost, but to embody America’s very being. That is, what is the very nature of the complete body politic in this country, presently?
Absolute partisan divide!
And, just imagine the nature of all the disparate individuals who are locked into their own political “take”!
The scariest one for me---me, as a youth, so naïve and also certain about it all, myself! “I am right!” Thus, when we contemplate the ongoing battle between the Dems and their bitter opponents, especially at the federal level, how is it possible to do other than tremble in fear---be afraid, very afraid---about the scary prospect that so many fooled and foolish voters are happily, even if in a totally deluded manner, cruising for a suicidal bruising, as they are about to blindly vote for the jackass party.
I, personally, with my long life of wide experience, just find it impossible to believe that an Obama or a Hillary could ever get elected president. Surely the majority of the voters can’t be that stupid---and, YET! Remember the hissy fit they had in 1976, when Dhimmi Carter conned most of us, including me, into office--- and this was right in the middle of the Cold War!
Somebody recently excused the way the West has been reacting to the Radical Muslim threat, by saying we can afford to be stupid, because we are so strong. Well, just try to look forward to at least four years with Obama leading an extreme veto-proof and filibuster-proof Congress, with suicidal laws and judge nominations!
Perhaps THAT will be our own version of a “civil war” similar to what Japan chose in the 1400’s, and the shock will be enough to bring America Alone onto a required war footing. I continue to believe that some kind of massive horrible atrocity must shock us, to wake us up. The current trend is NOT our friend!
Finally, we could try to deconstruct the basic “mood” of the polled electorate. Something like 80% of our citizens believe the country is headed in the wrong direction. They are RIGHT! But what are the internals?
Here’s my take. It’s eerily similar to the late 1930’s, in England. That is, about 50% are buying the weak “appeasement” policy of the Dumocrats, and perhaps 30% have their informed and wise heads on straight, with the remaining 20% absolutely out of touch with reality that doesn’t extend beyond their own egoic realms.
So, the trend seems to say, let this misguided majority opinion take power, and then---BAM! A terrible inflection point ensues, to wildly shift sentiment, so that a complete turnaround occurs. I just wonder if this can possibly happen BEFORE the November elections, or really, whether we definitely must take the wrong path, once more, and tempt our existential fate.
Ah, another old memory just arose. Probably fifty years ago there was a famous cigarette ad, whose slogan was, “I’d rather fight than switch”, with the speaker brandishing a black eye while smoking their favorite brand. Well, these appeasing days, it seems like the majority of Americans stupidly are ready and willing to switch, not fight!
Dhimmi Carter is presently winning, alas.
Musl| 1.8.11 @ 1:25PM
Dear all,
I'm glad to share with you the following edict given out by 'Shaykh-ul-Islam Hazrat Mufti Muhammad Idris Usmani' of Jamia Islamia who is roughly equivalent to a 'Senior Cardinal' in the 'Vatican'.
He has issued the following 'fatwa' (edict) about the killer of Governor Punjab(Pakistan) Salman Taseer and about those who are praising and justifying his murder.
Quote "Question:
What do the Ulema say about the murder of Governor of Punjab (Pakistan) Salman Taseer who was killed by his own security guard. The
guard claimed that he killed Salman Taseer because he was blasphemous to the Prophet (peace by upon him). However, there is no evidence of Salman Taseer's blasphemy to the Prophet (pbuh). What do the Ulema say about many people who are praising Salman Taseer's killer?
Answer:
"In the Name of the Merciful and Compassionate Allah, Dar al-Fatwa.
Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Universe; blessings and peace be upon our Master Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah,
I have carefully read the whole issue and also read various news reports and articles related to this (issue). I have also spoken to the 'jayyad ulema' (eminent scholars) in Pakistan and India.
In the light of the available evidence, I state the following:
1. Malik Mumtaz Qadri has committed 'gunah-e-azeem' (great sin) by killing an innocent soul. By taking law into his own hand, by killing an innocent man, and by bringing disgrace to the name of Islam, Malik Mumtaz Qadri has created 'fasad fil arz' (mischief on earth) and committed 'tauheen-e-risalat' (blasphemy to the Prophet). Same applies to those who are creating further mischief (fasad) by praising or justifying this heinous crime in the name of Islam. The killer of
Salman Taseer is a real blasphemer to Islam and the holy Prophet (peace be upon him).
2. Those individuals and groups including the ignorant ulema, misguided journalists, politicians, lawyers 'wa deegar' (etc), who are
celebrating or justifying in any manner this heinous crime must be treated as accomplice in this crime. Those who endorsed a fatwa of
Salman Taseer's murder too must be treated as 'mufsid fil arz' (mischief mongers) and must be punished according to the Shariah.
3. While the state of Pakistan will pursue a legal case against the killer and his abettors according to their national laws, the following verses from the Quran clearly specify the punishment for
Malik Mumtaz Qadri and his supporters and cheerers." Unquote
So you see guys, Islam does not preach violence but it's some of the followers who use it to justify their actions.
I have learned a allot in the last one day from our debate and hope you have understood the other perspective as well.
I now rest my case. God be our Guide and Savior.
Big J| 1.8.11 @ 7:23PM
Sorry, I just can't stand it any more.
Let's parse:
You know, you're rhetoric reminds me of an Iranian immigrant I met during the Thanksgiving holiday. He was well educated (in an American university, paid for with partial government grants), worked for a large American firm for a generous salary, and had enjoyed the freedoms that this wonderful country affords all who reside here (legally or otherwise). It took about 3 days until this liberal, America-bashing, condescending, holier than thou monster actually showed his true colors, but when it happened, he didn't hold back.
You see, our Mohamed (his real name) believes that America has been responsible for the destruction of more civilization and the death of more innocent people here and around the world than any other nation in history. He believes that Americans are greedy capitalists, hell bent on conquering the world, occupying every country, imposing democracy and EVIL capitalism on each country we destroy, after killing as many innocent civilians as possible - I think you get my point.
While Mohamed dips his beak in the sweet glass that is liberty, he chooses to completely trash the source of that nourishment.
I could deal with about 15 minutes of his tirade (he was very calm about it), and had to leave. I had tears of rage in my eyes as I was driving home. To think that someone could benefit so much from this wonderful nation, yet continually stab it in the back, twisting the knife all the while? I knew people like Mohamed existed, I just have never been so close to one.
Thank God he went back to Liberal Oregon, where I am certain he is surrounded with like-minded idiots. That stuff don't fly down here in Texas my friend.
So here we have Musl (short for Muslim, I'm sure, but not sure why). Musl would have us believe that Islam is just like Christianity. In fact, according to Musl, Christians have been much more violent and oppressive, much less tolerant than any religion that has ever existed. Laughable at first, but I am starting to wonder if he really believes that, and expects us to agree?
We are to believe that the genital mutilation of women, the stonings, the be-headings, the use of children as suicide bombers, the fatwa's, jihad, etc, etc, etc are just a few radical extremists, not the mainstream?
HOGWASH (heavy on the hog).
Come on, Muslim. You are not going to convince any sensible person that Islam is a peaceful religion, and we should all just get along.
No, George Bush is not the moral equivalent to Osama bin Laden. Sorry, go sell crazy somewhere else, we're all filled up here.
No, Christians have not oppressed, maimed, nor killed the innocents that the "handful of radicals" located in your peaceful religion have oppressed, maimed and killed.
And please don't insult our intelligence regarding the abundant access to education that your women have. They are forbidden to go to school in a lot of Muslim countries, and you know it. Not to mention the fact that they aren't even allowed to pray next to the men, nor walk next to them (10 steps behind - I've seen it hundreds of times), nor ride in the front seat of the car with the men. Nor are they allowed to simply LOOK at a man outside of the immediate family (an offense punishable by stoning or flogging). For goodness sake, man, don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining!
Missbosslady had it right. America's where it's at. You are more than welcome to participate in the religion of your choice, make as much of your life as you want, and according to a growing number of activist judges, apply sharia law in your household as you see fit.
I can't for the life of me figure out why that isn't enough for you - of course, enough is never enough. For some reason, you need to convince a bunch of uneducated and bigoted American Spectator readers that your way is not only good, but it is the right way. If we would just give Islam a chance, we would see.
Well, I say take your twisted so-called religion back to the desert where it belongs. We don't want it or need it. Or don't - whatever. As was said above: quit peddling your pig dung here. We know what we know, and no amount of spin is going to change that.
Now if you'll excuse me, I am going to go open the truck door for my beautiful wife (the front one), and take her out to show off how beautiful she is (leave the burkha in the closet, baby!). She'll stand side by side with me, free as a bird!
God I love America!
Chris| 1.9.11 @ 3:12AM
Mosl man. Just leave us alone.
No matter what you say, we won't believe you. We might not have been to your lands but know a hell lot more than you. We have the best news reporters in the world!
We have no tolerance left to listen to your explanations. So save the effort and good night. Its pretty late anyway.
Musl| 1.10.11 @ 3:25AM
Big J,
Just when I thought I'll conclude, I find myself sucked back into this forum but hopefully for the last time. My response may be long but I had to answer your misperceptions. Your story about the Iranian immigrant is indeed sad. But the person is entitled to his view, something that many liberal Americans of all other religions may also have, rightly or wrongly is another debate.
My question is, what has your Mohammed's religion got to do with this. For this one Muslim you've told me, I can tell stories of several other Muslims who love America would do anything in service of America and have even died for America. So once again religion is not the cause of your Mohammed's views. Maybe his country of origin is Iran - did you ever think about that?
About your accusation of me projecting Christianity as more violent than Islam. You are wrong my friend. I've been saying repeatedly that Muslims and Christians have been violent in time and have justified their actions through their religions; whereas their religions do not teach violence. I in fact take Christianity and Islam at par. Period.
Islam does not promote 'Genital mutilations'. My God! That's the most abhor-able thing in Islam. It used to be done by very few conservatives in Egypt out of their culture. Its all but finished now.
Your quote, "Kids turned into suicide bombers". My Answer: Again this is a detestable act done by the criminals and not supported in Islam at all.
Stoning to death on adultery is again a controversial issue which is not in Koran at all.
Lastly 'beheading' was a punishment in those days for murderers since they did not have firing squads, electric execution chairs or lethal injections (which are there in your country for capital punishment) and beheading was the least painful of all deaths only for confirmed serial murderers and rapists.
About your comments on women in Islam, Quote "They are forbidden to go to school in a lot of Muslim countries, and you know it"
My answer: You are WRONG!!! Name one muslim country where the state does not allow woman education and support your response it with legit records. If some very few "Mormon" types in Muslim region refuse to evolve with time, you cant blame it on their religion or state.
Quote, "Not to mention the fact that they aren't even allowed to pray next to the men".
My Ans: Yes thats correct and there was a reason for that which you might not even understand. There is nothing wrong in giving them the liberty to pray separately in a group where they feel more comfortable.
Your Quote, "nor walk next to them (10 steps behind - I've seen it hundreds of times), nor ride in the front seat of the car with the men"Unquote.
My Ans: What times are you referring to? Is this the same time when you were doing the same with Afro Americans in your country? When they were not allowed to study with you, travel with you, eat with you and what not ('cause this is what I've seen from your media before 70's). Again this is not there anymore and religion anyway has nothing to do with that. Again it was Arab culture.
Quote, "Nor are they allowed to simply LOOK at a man outside of the immediate family (an offense punishable by stoning or flogging)".
Ans: Now this is complete Hogwash with a capital 'HOG'. Put your fact straight 'J'. THIS IS NOT CORRECT AT ALL.
In my discussions here I have not undermined American people at all. America is still a great country with majority of people as good, easy going and moderate as the ones living in Muslim countries.
Its some of the misguided souls such as you, there who I'm trying to address. These hate mongers are no different from the ones we have. Who I also try to reason with and get the same crap back that i got from you. Emotional and illogical based on half baked truth. One of them is the 'burkha'. Islam does not advise this garb, its the Arab culture!
For goodness sake, man, don't 'urinate' on your own leg and tell me I'm doing it!!
Wish you all the very best with your lovely wife. I'm sure you love her and when you mean "show off how beautiful she is" you don't mean "flaunt her as your trophy"; cause it might hurt her sensitivities. I believe you respect her as a person and as your life partner, just like all wives around the world are meant to be for their husbands, irrespective of their religions, cultures or countries.
MUSL MAKES ME PUKE!| 1.8.11 @ 9:38PM
GET LOST, GOAT MOLESTER! DIE, WOMAN MURDERER! BURN IN HELL, CHILD SODOMIZER! EAT PIG, SATAN WORSHIPPER!
Musl| 1.10.11 @ 3:32AM
In return, I've nothing but sympathies for you, my friend.
Another misguided soul now full of hatred.
God Bless you.
Bob Menzies| 1.10.11 @ 6:15AM
MUSL MAKES ME PUKE! spends too much time looking in the mirror methinks.
MUSL MAKES ME PUKE!| 1.10.11 @ 8:16AM
I didn't post the above offensive comments. Some misguided muslim probably did in order to trigger a negative reaction from overly sensitive readers who don't always follow the peaceful surats of the Holy Quran.
Does this kind of bs cop out sound familiar?
I thought so.
Now keep watching YOUR mirror and buzz off.
Jeremiah| 1.10.11 @ 8:49AM
MMMP, you're right on! This is exactly how they do it every time!
Jeremiah| 1.10.11 @ 8:55AM
A muslim Bill Clinton (God forbid!) caught with his pants down and his dick in Monica's mouth would have claimed: "She raped me!"
Islam is an evil cult.
gary siebel| 1.8.11 @ 2:31PM
But they are not just on the other side of the world. They are here.
Have the editorial "we" completed abandoned resistance to the proposed 911 mosque because the election is over? Now is the time to escalate the attacks against it, not let the whole thing slide. It should be hammered on every single day! No let up, no rest, no slack.
RCV| 1.8.11 @ 2:33PM
Thanks, Musl for the post. It comes on a day when we have just learned that someone assassinated a Democratic congresswomen in Tucson, Arizona this morning, along with others, including a child. No indication yet as to motive, and certainly no suggestion of religious motivation, but we unfortunately have very disturbed people here as well with easy access to deadly weapons.
RCV| 1.8.11 @ 4:09PM
Not I really give a shit, mind you. After all she was just a zionist female (therefore a nobody in my liberal opinion) but I have to suck her corpse clean if I want to push my gay muslim agenda.
RCV| 1.8.11 @ 4:24PM
Once again, the children are out posting in other's names. BTW, it appears tht the Congresswoman fortunately is still alive. I was foolish enough to rely on Fox News for the false report that she had died.
RCV| 1.8.11 @ 6:15PM
Sorry, I meant NPR, not Fox, but you had guessed already.
Repugnant, Coward & Vile| 1.8.11 @ 7:42PM
And for your information, it was your husband Keith Olbermann from MSNBC who pronounced her dead and accused "teabaggers" of the crime.
You must have taught him one thing or two, right naughty boy?
RCV| 1.8.11 @ 9:10PM
The 4:24 post is another false one by the childish idiot.
Ken (Old Texican)| 1.10.11 @ 7:42PM
RCV,
I don't know whether to laugh at your foolishness or cry at your...stupidity.
Musl has an AK-47 sitting beside him as you write, dumb dumb.
Musl| 1.11.11 @ 2:35AM
Thanks RCV for your kind words. Bless you.
Ken, you are funny mate :-)
No guns here friend. Not even a BB pistol and this is no 'holy lie'. By the way, being a Texan which gun do you carry.
Cheers!
RCV| 1.11.11 @ 6:00PM
Is he Texan, Ken?
londo| 1.8.11 @ 2:45PM
The islamist mentality reminds of the narcissistic personality disorder. They can't admit to their own mistakes and have an extreme delusions of grandeur. Add to that their sense of entitlement when it comes to the welfare systems and we are almost done with a full analysis.
And should we be surprised when the so called prophet displayed all the traits of a narcissist and when his virtues became the norm of every pious muslim the result is a cult of narcissism with a billion potential victims.
Jeremiah| 1.9.11 @ 3:58PM
You wanna commit the perfect murder? Ask a muslim to say: "I was wrong. I'm sorry."
He'll die on the spot.
Michele San Pietro| 1.8.11 @ 3:44PM
Such fanatics simply represent a cancer that must be excised.
Ciao Caro! Come Stai?| 1.8.11 @ 6:22PM
Hai ragione, Michele. Quella gentaccia merita soltanto una lametta al collo. E poi sono nascosti dapertutto, e una roba da matti! E quel scemo di figlio della vergogna que sta alla Casa Bianca e une di quelli, che vergogna!
Answers1| 1.8.11 @ 5:05PM
It's like giving a baby a loaded gun with a hair trigger.
Ferris| 1.8.11 @ 5:08PM
Mayor Bloomberg wants these people to build a mosque at Ground Zero.
Chris | 1.8.11 @ 5:48PM
Political correctness need to Die! Because of political correctness, we have allowed immigration of people who want to do US harm, and we have allowed them in and continue to allow them to live among us and plotting to convert OR Kill US!! I don't know what could possibly be politically correct about that??? We are behind the 8 ball America, when are we going to take matters into our own hands and stand up, be heard, show where our trust really is?? the majority of Americans believe we have been way too soft on these issues and need to Act Now, to get the immigration and border security under control, before its too late!! Please stand up and be counted, join our cause to be heard and seen, go to; http://www.PatrioticChristiansToday.com and oin with good Christian Patriot who want to make a difference, who are uniting together to be heard.
PacRim Jim | 1.8.11 @ 5:59PM
Leaving them alone will only allow them to strike America directly. Has the lesson of Bin Laden been forgotten already. You can't run away from cancer. It metasticizes. It's horrifying that some Americans must sacrifice their children in the process, but freedom is not free.
Marc Jeric| 1.8.11 @ 6:10PM
Let us simplify this discussion: Islam is not a religion, it is a political movement with these aims:
1) Conquest by force of arms;
2) Forced or voluntary conversion to Islam;
3) Failing that, slavery (dhimmitude);
4) If resistance is encoutered, then mass murder.
The entire history of Islam since the 7th century confirms the above.
It behoves our government to act on these uncontestable truths and suppress all adherents of this detestable and murderous political program. "Islam is a religion of peace" is a cruel joke and should be prosecuted as treasonous.
Shawn| 1.8.11 @ 6:36PM
That's because they are savages following a barbaric religion that has refused to evolve over more than an eon. Enter the apologists who refuse to call them out because they are from a different culture...aka they are not white westerners so they should be able to do whatever cruel thing they want and its probably all the Jews fault anyway.
Dein| 1.8.11 @ 7:48PM
Policy for THE WAR AGAINST ISLAM:"If,after any attack upon any U.S citizen,soldier, embassy, military base,or commercial enterprise,that the source of the attack, after a thorough investigation, is to be determined to be from any muslim, sharia,or jihad invocation,shall, within 90 days, be met with a full military response at least 10,000 times greater than the provocative attack,at any place to be left to the discression of the U.S.Military".This is a policy the leaders of the"religion of peace" may understand.
Yephora| 1.8.11 @ 7:52PM
Islam is a mental disorder.
benadam| 1.9.11 @ 2:57AM
How can we offer protection for those being perseuted, when already inside out so-called 'christina (sic)' ntions there are sharia courts, mosques, and politicians bending over to the spread and radicilisation of violent islam.
We can pray for these people with earnest hearts, but the enemy is not at the door any longer, he is witin our society using all the means to gain prominence, liberalism, socialism, politics and of course the appalling weak liberal media. Its very troubling indeed tht as democracies, the awful politicains we vote for are doing nothing but bending over to placate this violent (peace loving) Islam. We are all responsible becuase nobody is standing up and saying enough!
Jack London| 1.9.11 @ 5:59AM
Thank God people like Sarah Plain, Glenn Beck, Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh and Jared Lee Loughner are on the other side of the world.*
*Geography isn't my best subject.
Jeremiah| 1.9.11 @ 3:54PM
And you have the IQ of a trisomic, no wonder you dropped out of school.
And turn that webcam off, you have a tiny dick, too.
George True| 1.9.11 @ 9:08PM
I guess you didn't read the available info on Loughner. He is a leftist. Two of his favorite books are the Communist Manifesto and Mein Kamph. Everyone who knew him said he was politically on the left, a liberal.
Facts are such stubborn and inconvenient little things, aren't they?
Asif Abbasi| 1.9.11 @ 8:54AM
William,
Your article did generate a huge response. I am now eagerly awaiting articles on other innocent deaths from Drone attacks in pakistan. I am eagerly waiting for the civil society to rise against this barbariasm as well.
I am also eagerly awaiting at your articles on how US people are better off and enjoying good night sleep after killing millions of Iraqis, and starving millions to death, for the sake of finding WMDs which astonishingly were never found.
I am also eagerly waiting for writers like you to speak against Israel's blockade of Gaza, and how the greatest robbery in the world took place.
Follow here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqxSMKHFnAs
All in All, i am waiting for this selective media sensationalism to end.
All in All, i would like and end to this rhetoric of Islam being the reason for wrongdoing when one of its followers does something that the majority doesn't like.
missbosslady| 1.9.11 @ 12:01PM
Asif, or is it "as if"?
As if, you could convince a well read, educated, American woman that Islam today is not inherently evil. As if.
As if, you could convince us that the mass protesting, and multiple attempted murders over a cartoon are within the realm of decency, reason and sanity. As if.
As if, you could explain why the potential killing, by the Pakistani government, of a Christian mother of five is not met with widespread condemnation and similar protests by the muslim world. As if.
As if, we should not believe our eyes when, despite extreme peril, citizens of muslim nations manage to send out evidence of the atrocities perpetrated by their own governments against their own people, in the name of a twisted "religion". As if.
As if, the shackled mind and soul of the muslim could EVER understand a truly free people. As if.
As if, the world will indefinitely tolerate your rhetoric and lies. As if.
Asif Abbasi| 1.9.11 @ 11:58PM
Pardon my ignorance, but i really don't know how that gives comfort to people living in U.S. knowing fully that their hands are stained with muslim blood.
Regarding Islam, just for a second, please take off the hatred spectacles, and just for a moment think that you really want to understand Islam rather than give in to the baseless propaganda.
If you want to seek truth, and by the i mean you really want to know what Islam says, just try to read Quran.
If somebody says that a particular verse in Quran orders killing of someone, please try to see the context in which it was revealed. Try to understand the full 'Para'.
You see their are billions trying to defend Islam and Billions trying to show that it is not the religion to be followed. If you truly wish to seek guidance and truth, you need to come from a neutral standpoint.
You might need to take the leaf of the following women, who first tried to understood what is Islam before deciding whether it is the religion to be followed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RNScXzXHLc
matthew | 1.9.11 @ 9:58PM
You know who has kills the most Muslim?
....Muslims.
Cant wait for them all to get their virgins in heaven..what a great religion to emulate. Clitectomies and Shira law for all.
Asif Abbasi| 1.10.11 @ 12:04AM
You know what Mathews, you probably would have a hard time trying to prove that.
Before doing that, why don't you guys try to find out the nation that was the first to use Atomic Bomb ??
Have you ever tried to find out that even after trying to promote peace, which nation exports highest number of ammunition to the world, to kill each other... Before you spend time figuring that out, let me help you. That is United States that exports weapons worth of USD 170 billion (official figures, unofficial is definitely higher), and 60% of these arms are sold to Developing countries.
Tom in Michigan| 1.9.11 @ 4:30PM
They are not on "the other side of the world." They are here; just in somewhat smaller numbers.
My own son told me he had a Muslim intern working for him who would not shake clients' hands because her "religion forbid her to" do so. This was extremely insulting to their clients, as even the most benighted person must understand and, he was relieved when he no longer had to introduce her to them.
The mother and sister of a young Nigerian woman who worked for my wife were murdered, apparently by the father and husband because they refused to return to Nigeria so the daughter could be entered into a forced marriage. My wife's colleague has since gone underground, leaving her job in the auto industry here. The father has returned to Nigeria and has never been apprehended.
My other son broke his friendship with another Nigerian Muslim when he refused to eat at our house telling my son, quite frankly our table was "unclean" even though I am educated in Asian cultures and, we would have gladly accommodated Muslim dietary strictures (I myself have had Muslim clients, as well as Hindus and Buddhists and was always conscientious of their needs. My Hindu and Buddhist friends have dined with me and my wife).
The mainstream press downplays these events but; these are true accounts from my own experience. We have the largest Middle Eastern population outside of the Middle East between Detroit and Toledo and, while the vast majority of them are good people and good citizens (my own doctor and tailor are both Arabs; I don't' know nor care about my doctor's religion-my tailor is a Muslim) but, there is a small but growing element within the Muslim sector which has adopted either a hard or "soft" approach to jihad, honor killings-as in the case of my wife's colleague's family and other evil aspects of Islam. We tolerate all races, creeds and colors-as we should and must according to American principles but, we must not tolerate this evil in our midst in the name of a foolish and suicidal political correctness.
Asif Abbasi| 1.10.11 @ 12:12AM
Lets decipher each of the above events:
(1) An itern didn't want to shake hands with men she didn't know ? How is that wrong or unethical ? Last time i checked, US was the biggest supporter of free will. Why cann't simply a hello suffice ? IMHO, you would be the one forcing someone to shake hands, because you think that is good your clientele.
(2) In the second story of murder, you yourself have used the world apparently. Again trying to link a murder or an act of an individual person with the religion. That is same as if i try to link *john wayne gacy* the biggest Rapist of all time,
with Christian religion, and try to prove that it was religion that made him do so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Wayne_Gacy
Musl| 1.10.11 @ 3:46AM
Dear Asif,
I commend you for being steadfast in face of so much hate and animosity thrown at you.
But sometimes I feel no matter how hard the sane voices from Muslim world try to explain to the other side the real essence of Islam, the closed minds over there would just not understand.
All the very best and to all the moderates and rational Muslim and Non-muslim friends out there too. I'm sure one day we will prevail over hate, lies and mischief all over this one world we have, making it a better place to live for all. Amen.
Tom in Michigan| 1.10.11 @ 1:59PM
There was no "hate" in my post. Asif, on the other hand is an apologist for murder. Why does somebody stay in a country he obviously hates so much?
John Navratil| 1.10.11 @ 10:58AM
Asif Abbasi,
An intern has the absolute right to refuse to shake hands with anyone. And the employer has the absolute right to terminate an employee who hurts his business by being culturally insensitive to his clients.
(At least in Texas where we have employment at will)
Tom in Michigan| 1.10.11 @ 1:57PM
Your arguments and "decipher" are not only specious, they attempt to justify the murder of two innocent women who came here seeking freedom but died, nevertheless.
Who said those whose hands the intern refused to shake were all men? The case in Pakistan involved women who would not accept water from another woman. The intern refused to shake any non-Muslims' hands.
When I interact with say, Japanese clients here; I do not bow because it is not expected or proper. However, when I am in Japan; I bow in the appropriate fashion for a Westerner in Japan. I've learned and accept their customs.
As for the two womens' murderer; the father and husband was the prime suspect and is still being sought. He had threatened them openly regarding the daughter's refusal to be forced into marriage - which is why they fled Detroit for New York.
You are a perfect example of Muslim apologists for any act in the "name of Islam," no matter how heinous and, represent the very reasons so many people have adopted a negative attitude towards your ilk.
Finally, John Wayne Gacy did not act "in the name of God," Christian or otherwise. If Muslims want to be accepted in this or any nation (an apparently dubious supposition, at best) then they need to adapt to our culture (within reason of course, no one expects you to eat pork for example) and do not expect us to adopt yours - although it is reasonable for the respectful to expect respect in return.
BTW. Only the most uninformed of people quote Wikipedia - the encyclopedia that can be edited by "anybody."
Tom in Michigan| 1.10.11 @ 2:08PM
By the way; what is your explanation for my other son's erstwhile friend's refusal to join us for dinner because our table was "unclean?" This invitation is routinely extended to all guests in our home (like Muslims, we are obliged by our culture to hospitality to all) and has never been refused in such insulting fashion. I respect the young man's right to politely refuse an invitation but, the insult - whether it was intended or not - was unnecessary, wholly gratuitious. I imagine he learned we were "unclean" from his parents? His imam?
FUCKING HYPOCRITE!| 1.10.11 @ 6:17PM
She was murdered in the name of your allah whereas Gacy didn't murder anybody in the name of Christ. At least he had the decency not to claim otherwise. You're a repellent snake, an hypocrite toddler molester and a disgrace for mankind. I spit on your evil belief and I use qurans in my restroom.
Musl| 1.10.11 @ 4:03AM
Tom,
I can relate to your concerns and appreciate your views.
My suggestions to Muslims following the extreme version of Islam and living in US is that they either respect the traditions, culture and law of their new land or if they don't find it to their liking then they can simply leave US for their country of Origin or Ancestry. The 'extremist' elements cannot live in vacuum there and certainly makes it difficult for the moderate muslim community at large to live in peace side by side with their non muslim hosts.
Hence by leaving, you'll be helping your religion and to fellow Mus.
Tom in Michigan| 1.10.11 @ 7:04PM
You are mistaken taking Asif for a reasonable person. Do not patronize such a hateful hypocrite who will defend any act by a Muslim, no matter how heinous. As he dishonestly "deciphered" my two other anecdotes; he will have no honest answer to my question regarding the young man who so disrespected my home and hospitality thanks perhaps to the hateful teachings to which he, Asif and the women in Pakistan have been exposed. To quote John, "there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies."
I never learned hatred of anybody because of their religion or other aspects of their person. Indeed, I honor and respect other, particularly Asian cultures. I am fluent in Japanese, for example. However, those Muslims who have come among us to do harm or at least no good, will come to no good end themselves because, though we are a welcoming and diverse nation; we have been aroused.
That being said, I welcome all, regardless of background who want to become good citizens or residents of the United States. Our enemies become such at their peril.
We are not Europe.
Musl| 1.11.11 @ 2:59PM
Tim,
I had supported Asif on his general pleas for not mixing a criminal with his religion. Unfortunately since yours was the last comment he had commented on (till then), I just put mine underneath his. No direct reference to your column here.
Having stated the above, I would want to differ from Mr. Asif's justification for those heinous incidents that you mentioned.
Let me explain here Mr. Tom. For a normal law and religion abiding Muslim of this world. All the three incidents you've mentioned are detestable. If the intern in your son's firm had a problem shaking hands, she should not have joined in the first place or at the most should have advised her employers of her hang ups and let them decide whether to hire her or not. Her actions have been an embarrassment for moderates of all religions. Period.
About your incident of those unfortunate ladies getting murdered. The husband and father are murderers as per their religion and as per their law. There is just no confusion in that neither any moral or religious justification. They should be hanged. Period.
And as for your third incident of the Nigerian not eating food at your place. This is again an act not appreciated in Islam as our prophet Mohammed used to break bread with people of other faiths. His stand was unless you don't make friends with people of other faiths how can you spread the good will of Islam.
All the three acts of Muslims in your scenarios are due to following some extreme distorted version of Islam promoted by some psycho Mullah (priests), something not followed by mainstream Muslims.
Let me assure you, such extremists elements are also not appreciated in Islamic countries. Why do you think there are so many suicide bombings going on in Pakistan on Muslim Pakistanis themselves. That's because they as a nation are trying to resist the 0.5% (approx. 850,000) extremely violent, vocal and fanatic population spread within them and hence paying a heavy price for that.
8000 innocent people dead from suicide bombings already and still counting, unfortunately.
Hence the least these moderate muslims world over expect from the Western World is understanding, compassion and a general understanding of their true religion (and not the religion project by our extremist element).
Thank you for your time and patience.
matthew | 1.9.11 @ 9:54PM
You cant understand this unless you understand that being a muslim is not so much of a religion, but a nation.
Lets call it what it is a stop PCing it to death.
Asif Abbasi| 1.10.11 @ 12:17AM
By the way, just read the following news:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CR.....l?iref=NS1
I was wondering what the reaction would have been, had it been a Muslim.... Just imagine the headlines...
NO RAGHEAD IN USA!| 1.10.11 @ 8:04AM
Asif Yukherd, you mention this:
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/CR.....l?iref=NS1
The media would have reacted as they did when a muslim traitor shot 10 soldiers in Fort Hood:
"An infortunate accident, the alleged shooter felt he was being discriminated against. Let's not stigmatize a religion and so on..."
The usual crap from useful fellow travelers.
NO RAGHEAD IN USA!| 1.10.11 @ 8:44AM
...or: "Bush did it!"
WTF| 1.10.11 @ 4:13AM
Overheard at al-Jazeera: "Thank Allah Tuscon is on the other side of the world."
Freddy| 1.10.11 @ 7:36AM
I am reminded of the term "you get the government you deserve." If the majority of these "goat lovers" are happy with their lot, then those who aren't should leave. I was all in support of our punitive expedition in 2001-4. Now it is just wasted tax dollars. We should surround the place with a wall, drop in a few million scattered surplus firearms, and sit back and watch the cage fight on ESPN via predator drone.
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Richard Baker| 1.10.11 @ 10:00AM
Islam is Evil:
What was that message, again?
This is the Message | 1.10.11 @ 11:59AM
http://www.tapuz.co.il/North/i.....a_game.swf
Click on the Hebrew word underneath Asif to select your dialogue topic
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