The American Spectator

Booger| 1.7.11 @ 6:17AM

From the desk of the Reverend Mary Moonbeam Black Crow O'Shannasey-Mitchell:

Dear Congregants,

I realize that many of you have become concerned with the decreasing size of our faith community here at Gaia Heart United Methodist Church and Gay Dating Service. I further realize that we have of late lost many of our less enlightened members to those bigoted "churches" which oppose full rights for our LBGTPB (Lesbian, Bisexual, Gay, Transgendered, Pedophile, Bestiality) community. However, after discussing this matter with some of my fellow clergy, I believe we have hit upon a solution. It appears there are large numbers of the LBGTPB community residing within the restrictive, patriarchal, homophobic churches of some of the so-called "christian" churches around us. What we need to do is increase our outreach to these individuals, so that they may come out from those churches and into a welcoming, friendly congregation that will accept them where and who they are.

Here are some of the ideas I have for Gaia Heart United Methodist Church and Gay Dating Service:

1) LGBTPB affirmation day. We will take out ads in all local papers, billboards, and the adult services section of Craigslist. We need to let these folks know there's a place where they can come to get their thing on, whatever it is, and still be accepted. I believe if we can get the word out like this, especially on Craigslist, it will really help our membership drive.

2) We need to advertise our alternate views class of religious history and get more clergy in here to take part. I really think our "Baal, misrepresented icon of male sexual prowess" and "Dagon, the fun god of sun and surf" classes could be quite attractive to many of the LBGTBP community.

3) Now that we have a local Pagan community, we need to reach out to them by stressing that being a christian and a Pagan do not have to be exclusive choices. We'll accept you as both! Considering the increasing size of the local Pagan community, this should open up quite a lot of membership possibilities to us.

4) Increase funding for our legal defense fund. As you know, the current fascist police state we live under is highly oppressive to our LBGTBP community. By increasing the amount of money we can pay to top-notch defense counsel we should be able to attract many new members who may need defense counsel from time to time. This is especially true of the "P" community, who remain stigmatized and demonized by most of our fellow "christians". By showing that we will warmly welcome them just as they are we should be able to attract all kinds of new members!

5) Finally, we need to distribute the new bibles we have finally received from Mephistopheles Press Publishing. I love that they have finally had the courage to excise the collected writings of the apostle Paul, which were clearly apocraphyl, and have replaced it with the gospels of Thomas, Judas, Mary Magdalene, The Seven Sons of Sceva, The Confessions of Caligula and the Remembrances of Nero. I believe this new version, with its updated text, is just what we need to reach the LBGTBP community being persecuted in churches all around us!

These are just some of my thoughts. Please feel free to add any ideas of your own, and remember to always use protection on that first date!

I look forward to seeing you at our Friday night "love feast" (and everyone remember to bring your own lubricants this time).

In deepest Eros,

The Right Reverend Mary Moonbeam Black Crow O'Shannassey-Mitchell

http://beautifulletters-bls.bl.....chive.html

Sara B| 1.7.11 @ 8:03AM

Booger...classic. And in a nutshell why we left Presbyterians USA and most recently the ELCA (Evangelical Lutherans). It's sad to see these once great churches become shells of their former selves as they drift away from the Gospel.

KyMouse| 1.7.11 @ 9:23AM

Sara, I too left the PCUSA, after having been a member for 25 years and an Elder. If I remember correctly, each PCUSA church member represents a "head tax" that is paid to the denomination's headquarters; so even if one is a member of a conservative church, one is still a source of revenue for programs and policies that one might not wish to support.

I found an independent Christian church that holds the Bible as its authority for faith and practice, and proclaims that salvation comes by God's grace through faith in Jesus alone. And I know that my donations are supporting a pregnancy-resource center and other truly worthy projects.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 1:45PM

Sara & KyMouse, Former PCUSA here, too. In high school was a youth leader, despite lack of belief beyond emotionalism. Quit churchianity until at age 38 God worked on me. Like you, am also at independent church now, do not trust denominations with distant & unaccountable leaders.

Bruce| 1.7.11 @ 2:03PM

And another former PCUSA member here. The US Synod is a great example of the church neglecting its calling to preach the Gospel and instead inserting itself where it doesn't belong, e.g. politics. I go to church to hear the word of God - not a radical preacher.
I'm now convinced that organized religion as a whole has drifted from its true purpose.

Ken| 1.9.11 @ 5:55PM

Bruce, you should be aware of the fact that the revolution that led to the establishment of the USA as an independent nation was fomented in the pulpits of the churches of colonial America. The Word of God is ultimately political in nature due to the fact that it concerns mankind and his need for leadership and salvation. The gift of salvation through Christ and leadership of the Holy Spirit of the Living God were not given so that we could hide in church houses and tell each other how great we are but rather to initiate change in our communities, nations, and ultimately the world. This is done through politics. Of course, the Enemy utilizes politics also and the concept of men leading men rather than laws leading men is something that He pretty much owns.

Sara B| 1.7.11 @ 3:13PM

We attend an independent Reformed congregation that lives out the true Gospel not social gospel. Goodness knows my kids get enough of that in public school. I've decided mainline churches have become like the mainstream media....they have sanitized and politically corrected religion so much that one can no longer separate the sacred from the secular. Anything goes unless it's a conservative stance toward the Gospels and salvation though Jesus Christ.

darcy| 1.8.11 @ 2:50AM

To KyMouse:

The Lutheran church is not yet dead; there are still two American synods that preach law and gospel and avoid political entanglements; they do teach both the sin of abortion and homosexuality -- Biblical issues, clearly, though they have been made political issues by the left in its march to destroy the family, and Christianity, generally.

They are the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS).

Together, these two synods are represented in every state.

Lori| 1.9.11 @ 9:24PM

dont forget Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (LCMS) a very straight up group--they are absorbing the refugees leaving the ELCA(I always called them "Lutheran Lites") in droves since their recent stand on allowing gay clergy and lay persons. There is a break off group(post ELCA) called Core/REFORM--calling themselves North American Lutheran Church and need new members and congregations to join them.

JB| 1.9.11 @ 12:47PM

Sara B, Bruce, KyMouse, and Evanton2,
Joined the club ex-PCUSA early 80's. Was raised Pres., all my 5 kids baptized Pres, but left in '86 when speakers were invited to come to adult SS: topics: homosexuality, nuclear freeze, abortion, and some other social issue. Also, info about the General Assembly, and their meetings held to worship "Sophia" changed our minds. We didn't want our tithes to go to those programs. We had been very active for ten years, served on deacon board, taught SS and preschool, loved the pastor, but got saved at a non -denominational service, and just weren't getting fed any longer. "Church shopped" and found an Assembly church where we have stayed almost 25 years. Several pastors have come and gone, but we choose to follow "Jesus" and not just a "man". Find a church that is based on the Bible, and talks about Jesus. Leave the politics out of it!

Ken| 1.9.11 @ 6:17PM

You should be aware of the fact that the revolution that led to the establishment of the USA as an independent nation was fomented in the pulpits of the churches of colonial America. The Word of God is ultimately political in nature due to the fact that it concerns mankind and his need for leadership and salvation. The gift of salvation through Christ and leadership of the Holy Spirit of the Living God were not given so that we could hide in church houses and tell each other how great we are but rather to initiate change in our communities, nations, and ultimately the world. This is done through politics. Of course, the Enemy utilizes politics also and the concept of men leading men rather than laws leading men is something that He pretty much owns.

william roder| 1.7.11 @ 4:03PM

The problem is all these church bodies have turned their back on Gods word, JESUS left his throne to live among us to pay for our sins ,not set up some uptopia on earth. There is still Bible beleiveing church bodies to be found

Tim| 1.7.11 @ 6:46PM

Come to the LCMS! We still are totally scripture based!

darcy| 1.8.11 @ 3:01AM

LCMS has both theologically conservative and theologically moderate congregations.

An excellent account of the state of Lutheranism in America is Patsy A. Leppien's :What’s Going on Among the Lutherans, published by Northwestern Publishing House. This volume also addresses how Lutheranism differs from the Reformed Church.

It contains also an enlightening chapter dealing with the National Council of Churches and the World Council of Churches, two entities that "lean heavily Marxist."

Dennis Dudding| 1.8.11 @ 7:20PM

@ Sara B,You nailed it with your statement"as they drift away from the Gospel" Todays churches have focused to much on denominational issues and totally forgotten the lost. The fields are ripe for the harvest.Get back to the great commission of Christianity

R. T.| 1.7.11 @ 10:56AM

The Methodist Church, like other mainstream denominations, is losing younger members because the youth are flocking to rock 'n' roll churches.

The Methodist style of worship is too refined, too traditional, too tame for them.

The youth are leaving for the showbiz style of worship found in the megachurches with the giant multimedia screens and live rock bands (praise bands).

The Methodist Church, in my opinion, actually demonstrates Christ's teachings by their social concerns and policies. In Methodism personal piety is not enough. You must love and do for others by putting Christ's teachings into action.

The Baptists, on the other hand, ("once saved, always saved") are in it only for the payoff: everlastin' life.

Of all the mainstream denominations, the Baptists are the worst, the most hateful, the most ignorant, the least Christian.

Kudos and salutations to the leadership of the Methodist Church for putting Christianity into practice.

T. Goldberg| 1.7.11 @ 11:04AM

R.T. may I add another adjective to describe the Baptists.

Hypocritical.

Here in Alabama the Baptists are more numerous than mosquitoes in August. And hypocristy is the theme of nearly all Baptist jokes, even among the Badtists--I mean Baptists.

Julie| 1.7.11 @ 11:06AM

Ha ha.

Yep, the Baptists are hypocrites. I know them all too well since I have been a member of First Baptist all my life.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 12:26PM

Julie & T. Goldberg,

It's one thing to pick on a Religion if you know that its doctrines are wrong, but it isn't right to say that all Baptists are hypocrites, that is being disingenuous.

I do not believe the doctrines of many Religions are Biblical and I openly critisize them, but NOT the individuals who believe in Christ. That is, unless they personally attack me for critisizing what I take a Biblical stand on. Then they will have a fight on their hands.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 1:52PM

Goldberg & Julie, The old saw = "If you find a perfect church, don't join it -- you'll ruin it." Recommend you read the apostolic letters. All are directed at problems in the church (I repeat, in the church). Like with Israel, the key aspect of spiritual warfare is within the church. Sure, fight your battles, but get off your high horse. At least, as you say, people can joke about hypocrisy. When institutions lack a sense of humor (see Dems, O, liberal churches) they lack self-awareness and repentance.

Barbara Smith| 1.9.11 @ 10:38AM

As a Sunday school teacher of adult ladies I was/am fond of saying, "When you get to thinking how spiritual you are, your spirituality just hit a "low!"

Mellow | 1.7.11 @ 2:57PM

I admire the teachings of the Methodist Church. I grew up Methodist, and I will remain a Methodist.

"Open Hearts, Open Minds" is our motto, and I think it says a lot about our mission. Thank God for good people like Methodists.

Simpatico| 1.7.11 @ 3:00PM

Ditto, Mellow.

God deliver me from the Baptists. I'll take Methodism any day before I would set my foot in a Baptist (even the name has an ugly sound) church.

However, I will remain outside the church, since it has little appeal for me--an agnostic.

Evanston2| 1.8.11 @ 12:14PM

Simpatico, That should be their slogan: "Methodism, the next best thing to agnosticism." May stop the bleeding of members. Then again, a subscription to TIME is cheaper than tithing, doesn't require you to leave the house, and tells you the same stuff with entertaining photos, too. I wonder why Methodism is going down the drain? Perhaps because it's The World and a religion of the natural man.

victor| 1.8.11 @ 11:01AM

Mello:
""Open Hearts, Open Minds"

If your mind is too open and you lean over then your brains will fall out, eh?

Upset Methodist| 1.9.11 @ 11:07AM

Th United Methodist Church is filled with liturgical hypocrits. They have gotten so far away from the teachings of John Wesley that it isn't funny and there is very little forgiveness and grace within the walls of the Methodist Church in my home town. The pastor there is a huge hypocrit.

Nutha one...| 1.11.11 @ 9:44PM

Yes- I am with you Upset Methodist- and I also agree with the person who said if your brain were open enough, your brain would fall out- the Methodists have gone so far over the edge as to be an actively bad influence. I left them in the early 90's due to Leftist proselytizing, and I can't bear to return, though it's where I was raised. The Lutheran's are far more educated and truer to Gospel and true Christian values.

Mark| 1.9.11 @ 12:57AM

I agree with the views expressed concerning Baptists. I spent most of my childhood in Baptist churches but wasn't to young to realize that they were about what clique you belonged to, if you sang the loudest and if you had the nicest clothes.

Ken| 1.9.11 @ 6:30PM

You folks are obviously showing your ignorance of all things Christian, Baptist and otherwise. To make a blanket statement regarding Baptists in general is just foolish. Baptist churches are all independent and controlled solely by the local congregation. This results in many churches being way out in left (right?) field in their practice as people pleasing becomes the norm. Many Baptist churches band together in larger organizations in order to efficiently execute mission work (ie. Southern Baptists), or preserve a particularly important point of doctrine (General Association of Regular Baptists), or even to build a political leftist machine (American Baptist Convention), but none of these are indicative of a denominational position. As far as the "once saved always saved" statement in the post just before the one I am addressing, this is a cheap and classless way to define a profound doctrine of the Bible. This doctrine states that because of mans sin he cannot approach the perfect God/Creator even in repentance without the calling of the Holy Spirit. It is called "irresistible grace" and it is quite out of fashion these days as are most doctrinal points which take the control out of the hands of men and put it in the hands of God, where it actually always has been anyhow....

Booger| 1.7.11 @ 11:46AM

"Once saved, always saved" is Calvin's doctrine of "perseverance of the saints", one of Calvinism's five main points (TULIP). It is as much a part of traditional/orthodox Methodist doctrine as it is Baptist. Now, how would you define "hateful"? Since you're slinging that adjective around, it might be helpful to explain what it means. And any true Christian should be "in it" for the "payoff" of everlasting life. If in this life only we have hope, we are of all men most miserable.

Cordially,

Booger

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 12:19PM

I don't know about the doctrine of "once saved always saved", but I would like to build on your comment about being in it for the payoff:

Moses looked to the reward~

"He considered abuse suffered for the Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked to the reward." Heb. 11:26.

"And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him." Heb. 11:6.

"Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ." Col. 3:23 & 24.

"Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward." Heb. 10:35.

PACoug| 1.8.11 @ 7:08AM

To paraphrase C. S. Lewis: "If a general fights to gain a peerage, he is mercenary. If he fights for victory, he is not mercenary. If a man marries for money, he is mercenary. If he marries for his desire to have his beloved, he is not mercenary." The proper rewards of an undertaking are that activity in its fulfillment, and it is not mercenary to desire them.

"When we consider the unblushing promises of reward found throughout the scripture, we are left to conclude that our Father finds our desire for heaven's reward not too strong, but indeed too weak!"

The Bible makes all these fantastic promises, and you are here telling us that desiring to receive these promises is bad.

You may forego them as you wish.

As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord--in the hope of obtaining the promise.

Quartermaster| 1.7.11 @ 1:25PM

OSAS is not the same as Calvin's Perseverance of the Saints. In Calvin's teaching the believer is not saved until the end. he believed that the true believer would persevere until then however. His teaching is more in line with the early Church position that the believer will be saved only at the end, although the early Church did not believe that a true believer would necessarily persevere to the end. The current teaching of OSAS you see in Baptists Churches is only a little over a 100 years old and conflates conversion and salvation.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 2:06PM

I really don't bother with what this one and that one says and in fact find it an excersize in not only futility but confusion to do so.
I read the Bible. It says this:

"..and you will be hated by all for My Name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." Mt. 10:22.

Les Nesman| 1.7.11 @ 1:46PM

Believing in something for a perceived gain or avoidance of harm is cynical & cowardly. You should believe in something because it is true & just.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 2:02PM

Les, Agreed. I'd add "good" to your description. Thus we see when people or entire denominations decide that the Bible isn't good, that it needs tinkering, that they lack faith and are worshiping themselves.
Quartermaster, It'd be nice if you'd provide a link regarding "the early Church position" so that way we have more to explore than your assertion. FYI, I believe perseverance of the saints is a Biblical doctrine (per Eph 1:13-14, Phil 1:6, 1 John 2:19), though I respect those who cite Scripture like James 5:19-20 to the contrary.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 2:10PM

Mr. Nesman,

I don't appreciate your insinuation and would guide you to the Scriptures:

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; a good understanding have all those who practice it. His praise endures for ever!" Ps. 111:10.

Ave| 1.7.11 @ 2:29PM

Les Nesman,

Thanks for the breath of fresh air. "True and just" are the kinds of words I like to read regarding religion.

Bevo| 1.7.11 @ 2:47PM

No, the "once saved always saved" is not held by orthodox Methodism or Wesley's teachings. In fact, Wesley taught that one could lose their salvation. Scripture also suggests that one can lose their salvation (John 15.1-6, Hebrews 6.4-6).

once44| 1.7.11 @ 3:01PM

"Once saved, always stupid" is more like it.

Doug| 1.9.11 @ 11:31AM

Uh-uh, Booger. Back to seminary. "Once saved always saved" is a gross perversion of "Perseverance of the saints". OSAS says once you walk down the aisle to "Just As I Am" it's a done deal no matter what you believe or how you live thereafter. Perseverance says you must PERSEVERE in faith and repentance (love and good deeds) until death to have assurance of salvation because faith and repentance necessarily flow from true conversion. Furthermore, traditional Weslyan Methodists are/were Arminian in theology, and oppose TULIP at every point. Not hatin', just sayin'.

TxPastor| 1.10.11 @ 8:40PM

Booger,
As a pastor in the United Methodist Church I must point out that your statement about Methodist doctrine is incorrect. Wesley held that a believer could "backslide" (search umc.org for "once saved, alwasy saved"). Wesley disagreed with all five points of TULIP, some were a matter of degree and others in whole. Wesley wrote several papers and sermons opposing Calvinist teachings. Wesley's views were primarily of the Anglican Church (which he was ordained in) with influences from Arminians and Moravians.

As as for the "pay off" are we "in it" to live forever or to be with Almighty God forever (big difference)? Salvation is not a payoff or reward as some suggest, but a gift that we cannot earn.

I do agree with you about the hateful language from others regarding Baptists. There are 3 large Baptists churches in our community. We work along side 2 of them in community activities and outreach, but 1 does not participate as some indicate. So all Baptists churches are not the same and church philosophy does not always reflect its member's philosophy.

mike barker| 1.7.11 @ 11:58AM

> The Methodist Church, like other mainstream >denominations, is losing younger members >because the youth are flocking to rock 'n' roll >churches.

False. The UMC is losing members by death and by the denomination's (extending down to local clergy) leftist politics AND abandonment of preaching and teaching about heaven, hell, souls, and salvation.

> The Methodist style of worship is too refined, >too traditional, too tame for them.

False. The Methodist style of worship neglects, ignores, or outright abandons preaching and teaching from scripture. Folks leave because the clergy obviously have not read and do not understand the Bible.

> The youth are leaving for the showbiz style of >worship found in the megachurches with the >giant multimedia screens and live rock bands >(praise bands).

False. Those youth leaving the UMC are finding not just modernized facilities with modern media, but also small prayer and worship and mission groups which hold scripture as foundational. Those youth REMAINING in the UMC and its youth groups are staying because they like the social activity and they like the good works done this civic organization, and because the youth pastor doesn't bother them with too much actual Bible reading and study.

And... Those megachurches (and community churches and other contemporary outlets of Christianity) typically are founded by and have at their core individual clergy and believers who actually read and study and understand that salvation, not social justice, is THE core of Christianity. These modern Christian institutions do, at the local level, every bit as much social and political outreach as the local UMC body, but they do so out of love for Christ and love of fellow man, and not simply love of fellow man, good feelings, and civic responsibility.

>The Methodist Church, in my opinion, actually >demonstrates Christ's teachings by their social >concerns and policies.

True. But 1) their policy positions, when put in practice, actual HURT the poor, the oppressed, the suffering and push more people into their ranks.
2) their policy positions enable tyrants,
3) Christ did not come to effect the human condition. He did not come to transform the world. He did not advocate social or political policy choices. He came solely to save souls.
4) the UMC has abandoned and is embarrased by soul saving, even at the local church level, and focuses EXCLUSIVELY on mission works.

At the local level, the local UMC church is simply yet another good civic organization. At the district level and above, the UMC is an advocate for policies which hurt people and enable tyrants.

>In Methodism personal piety is not enough.

True. But neither is personal piety enough at the fancy new community church.

> You must love and do for others by putting Christ's teachings into action.

True. The upstart churches do this, as does the local UMC body.

>The Baptists, on the other hand, ("once saved, >always saved") are in it only for the payoff: >everlastin' life.

False. This is just ignorant.

>Of all the mainstream denominations, the >Baptists are the worst, the most hateful, the most >ignorant, the least Christian.

False. What your side sees as hate and calls hate is the good and honest Christian's simple observation that God's holy word:
1) condemns certain activities
2) calls on Christians to police themselves
3) describes Christianity as an EXCLUSIVE body (but with an inclusive outreach)
4) describes both God and Christ as judgmental, supernatural beings who do and will condemn some people to a burning hell and grant others eternal life

>Kudos and salutations to the leadership of the >Methodist Church for putting Christianity into >practice.

Bleccth. People are going to hell and the UMC, once the church of the Godly Wesley and Asbury, who understood there CORE mission of salvation, has abandoned (explicitly, by formal vote at the GC) the mission of salvation and replaced it with deadly progressive political fashion and with a declared mission of "transforming the world."

fbom| 1.7.11 @ 12:19PM

I agree completely. I left the Methodist Communion and the National Council of Marxists (oops -Churches) because the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and the Gospel according to Das Kapital are mutually exclusive in real practice. There was also a specific instance where I was a first hand witness, of an Official Board member, in open and honest discussion, to exception to some positions put forth by the local Bishop. His reward for this open and honest discussion was for the Bishop to hire a private investigator to ‘dig up some dirt’. Since the Official Board member was actually living a Christian life this proved to be harder than expected. The Methodist Communion no longer follows the teachings of Christ and John Wesley. They follow the lies of Beelzebub – the appearance of good on the outside but rotten on the inside. That is why the pews are empty.

Lord Hearteater| 1.7.11 @ 12:46PM

I can refute your rebuttal about Baptist hatefulness and hypocracy in just 3 words:

Westboro Baptist Church.

Quartermaster| 1.7.11 @ 1:31PM

And to use one false body as if it were typical of all Baptists is quite ignorant. If you method of argument were correct I could state all Democrats are negligent murderers because Kennedy left a young woman in a car to suffocate. And, in actuality, it would be closer to the truth.

Dixie Pixie| 1.7.11 @ 1:59PM

Greeting Lord HeartEater

The classic rebuttal is to refer to John 14:2 ,,,,King James Version,,,,,
"....In my Father’s house are many mansions:...."

????Westboro Baptist Church????
Heck, There is even room for both the Catholics and Anglicans.

Bad Baptist| 1.7.11 @ 2:49PM

I got out of the Baptist church back in the early sixties when their ugly stance on integration made me sick. Bigots! Yes, Baptists tend to be more bigoted, and I am glad I left the church.

I say without any reservation whatsoever, that the Baptists have no sense of basic morality or ethics.

ooooo| 1.7.11 @ 3:03PM

Good for you, Bad Baptist.

Dixie Pixie| 1.7.11 @ 6:31PM

What is this, Bash the Baptists Day.

I see the "Right To Free Speech" is alive and well today.
Next on the agenda is the Federal Governmental action to reduce fluoride in the water so protecting our precious bodily fluids.
Brigadier General Jack Ripper would be so proud of his boys today.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 2:05PM

Mike Barker, Thorough and well-said.

Rejuvination| 1.7.11 @ 2:35PM

I agree with the posters who compliment the Methodist Church for its social outreach. I, too, agree with those who criticize the Baptist Church.

The Baptists are antidiluvial in their beliefs. They interpret the Bible literally. Literally! Especially the most brutal and uncivilized verses.

Baptists are a blotch on Christianity, in my opinion.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 11:55PM

Rejuvination, This is truly fascinating but all too common. If the Bible doesn't define what Christianity is, then what does? Well, evidently, what you find to be good. That is, you are God and if you read anything you don't like you will spiritualize the text or outright ignore it. It's funny that you use the term "antidiluvial" (though it's actually spelled "antediluvial"). It means before the Flood. So perhaps you take the Flood (where God killed all but one family) literally? Or perhaps you just use words when you neither know how to spell them, nor what they mean. I expect the latter applies. I'm not a baptist, but you make them look good by comparison.

tellthetruth| 1.9.11 @ 10:39PM

You are a blotch on spelling, in my opinion. It's Rejuvenation" with an "e" genius, compliments of a Baptist.

Rev.Jim| 1.8.11 @ 9:40PM

Interesting perspective...ignorant, but interesting all the same. I know of many Biblically faithful churches and pastors in the UMC. In fact, there are whole movements within the church working to counter some of the left-leaning leadership (check out http://www.confessingumc.org/ to see an example.

Yes, there are liberal talking heads that lean left; there are those in many denominations. Unfortunately, your loathing of the UMC has lead to a distorted picture of the church as a whole.

Upset Methodist| 1.9.11 @ 11:18AM

I know of one minister who reportedly committed improper behavior with someone in a congregation and he was drummed out of the church for it, condemned and virtually excommunicated. I know the man, and have known him as a good hearted abd wonderful person. The church leadership took her side of everything without his even being allowed to confront his accuser. There was never any sex involved and she was not ill treated in any way, yet she ruined his life for him and in this case, the church was hugely hypocritical. He was told, "There is no forgiveness and no grace for you at __UMC. I think this is so far from the love, forgiveness and grace that is in the Bible that the pastor of the church ought to be drummed out himself!

Marvin Wells| 1.9.11 @ 1:46AM

I agree with you completely also. I am still a 4th generation Methodist from both of my parents. I am fortunate to attend a bible preaching, believing and sharing congregation. The basic doctrines of UMC are good and true. There are lots of us born again, saved, and spirit filled praying and believing lay minister Methodist that are aware that the church has largely left us. We are very disturbed by the liberal/progressive political stand taken by many bishops and agencies. I hope we do not have to quit paying the franchise fee to the conference and build a bigger and better bible church up the street.

Marvin Wells| 1.9.11 @ 1:48AM

I agree with you completely also. I am still a 4th generation Methodist from both of my parents. I am fortunate to attend a bible preaching, believing and sharing congregation. The basic doctrines of UMC are good and true. There are lots of us born again, save, and spirit filled praying and believing lay minister Methodist that are aware that the church has largely left us. We are very disturbed by the liberal/progressive political stand taken by many bishops and agencies. I hope we do not have to quit paying the franchise fee to the conference and build a bigger and better bible church up the street.

Joe| 1.7.11 @ 12:46PM

RT - "The Methodist Church, in my opinion, actually demonstrates Christ's teachings by their social concerns and policies."

Incorrect. The Methodist Church advocates for socialist policies. That is not what Christ taught.

Christ taught that each person was responsible for living faithfully, with charity and morality defined by God (not moral relativism). He never advocated for governmental imposition of morality or charity. If God wanted governments to be the arbiters of faith and morality, Christ would have been born an earthly king, instead of a heavenly one.

Dixie Pixie| 1.7.11 @ 1:28PM

Greetings R.T., Mr Goldberg and Julie
May the Peace of a benevolent God bring enlightenment and wisdom into your lives.
A fundamental principal of Baptist faith is to hate the "Sin" and love the "Sinner".
However not everyone believes in the same religious principals.

Just a thought.
Isn't it interesting that the religious pathologies outlined in the above William Tucker article are active in the Methodist heart. Could it be the United Methodist Church has been acquired by and now are semi-independent theological propaganda subdivision of the "Cult of Socialism".

R.T.... What did you mean as ...."too refined"....
Did you mean to say ...."too smug, arrogant and pertinacious...."
I await your reply.

Too Refined| 1.7.11 @ 2:39PM

Too kind. Far too kind for the hardcore Bible-thumpin' know-it-all Baptists.

"You ain't been baptised 'less you been totally immersed," warn the Baptists.

Please. Deliver me from these Christian folks.

Dixie Pixie| 1.7.11 @ 4:15PM

To: TooRefined

Of course there is always the Druids and Wiccans.
Or you could go for the Old Norse religions and its modern variants Asatru, Theodism, Forn-Sior or Odinism.

America still believes in "Freedom To Worship" at least until Christianity is outlawed.

Dixie Pixie| 1.7.11 @ 4:15PM

To: TooRefined

Of course there is always the Druids and Wiccans.
Or you could go for the Old Norse religions and its modern variants Asatru, Theodism, Forn-Sior or Odinism.

America still believes in "Freedom To Worship" at least until Christianity is outlawed.

gritsngravy| 1.10.11 @ 2:59PM

If it ain't true then atheists had the most fun and christians....... not so much! On the other hand..........! Ya'll just keep pickin' the fly crap out of the black pepper. As for me, I'm off to pray........

Anthony| 1.7.11 @ 9:27PM

What about them Roman Catholics wanting to make everyone worship the pope? And you got them there Nazi Lutherans, and I bet those Orthodox are all commies, and let's not even get started on the Jews.

Jari| 1.8.11 @ 12:38AM

The problem with using the church in politics is that it is usually not honest to say that "your side" cares about the issue while "their side" does not.

In all the major issues, it is simply misleading to say that the Left cares about the poor or whatever the issue is. There are plenty of people on the Right who care about the poor. The argument is about the best way to handle the problem.

All I see when I see left leaning churches teaching that they're the only ones who care about the poor, are a bunch of people who hate the Right, to the point where they neither understand nor care about the Right's beliefs (either that or they're willfully misrepresenting their opponents).

When I see left leaning churches going on about the poor, I also wonder how they can possibly reconcile it with the idea of faith.

If you believe there is a God and He is just, why do you doubt that He has a plan?

Why does God allow suffering?

I do not mean to say there's something wrong with good works. I'm absolutely in favor of good works, and I don't think you can be a good Christian if you don't give, and do what you can to alleviate suffering.

But while I admire churches that do what they can to alleviate suffering, I am not so enamored of churches that spend less time alleviating suffering directly, and more time campaigning about what other people should think or feel or want with regards to the desire to alleviate suffering. That's not what churches are for: that's what politicians are for.

Dennis Dudding| 1.8.11 @ 7:27PM

RT Shame on you for your statement regarding the Baptists we are all brothers and sisters in Christ!

St Reformed| 2.4.11 @ 6:58PM

Many contemporary church bodies put the Gospel into practice. Unfortunately, the talking heads of the UMC are indistinguishable from the platform of the Democratic Party. Even worse, many seem to believe that Jesus walked the earth as a barefoot Marxist. Faithful Christians vote with their feet: In the UMC and the ELCA (the church of my Baptism), the stampede is OUT the door.

Harry the Horrible| 1.7.11 @ 11:05AM

Funny, but you're way off target, at least here in the South (Atlanta doesn't count - its not really Southern...). True, the upper levels of the United Methodist Councils are heavily populated by moonbats, but the rank and file are pretty normal Christians. We have more important things to worry about than the moonbattery by people we've never met (and hope to never meet...).

Dunno 'bout the Yankee churches, though.

Joe| 1.7.11 @ 12:50PM

"True, the upper levels of the United Methodist Councils are heavily populated by moonbats, but the rank and file are pretty normal Christians. We have more important things to worry about than the moonbattery by people we've never met "

Yet you support these people with your contributions to the church.... and therein lies the problem. You belong to a church who's leadership you do not support or challenge. Therefore you enable that which you do not agree with.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 2:10PM

Joe, Absolutely right. Harry, We can't do anything when the government takes our money at gunpoint, but you are indeed responsible for how the "Yankee churches" spend your money. To wave it off so casually is a sign, not of your difference with the Yankees, but of your indifference to righteousness.

Incense and Chanting| 1.7.11 @ 2:43PM

As a Roman Catholic who works with Christians from all denominations, I can attest that the Baptist are far more bigoted than any other denomination. What they think of Roman Catholics is shocking!

77 & on my way to heaven| 1.7.11 @ 2:53PM

You should hear my uncle, a deacon in the Baptist Church, talk about how the Roman Catholics are going to hell. To hear him tell it, the only people in heaven will be Baptists.

This is typical Baptist belief, from my experience living and growing up in South Carolina.

Whether they want to admit it or not, the Baptists are hateful bigots. Methodists, as Too Refined says, are "kinder."

Evanston2| 1.8.11 @ 12:12AM

Dear Incense and 77, Do you reject what Baptists say because it is unBiblical, or because you simply don't want to hear it. Do Baptists fail to tickle your ears (2 Tim 4:3)? Oh, so sorry. It seems just a little while back (prior to Vatican II, in the 1960s) Rome said that all non-Catholics were going to hell. Hateful bigots? At least Baptists reject Rome because it preaches a different Gospel, let him be accursed (Gal 1:8). That the just shall live by faith (Hab 2:4, Rom 1:16-17, Eph 2:4-9). But go ahead, trust in your baptism, your attendance points, and your partaking of "the host" and penance (and other acts of merit) to get you by. Also, Rome has never specifically repudiated Trent so all protestants are still anathematized. Isn't it swell, how being "kinder" is your measure of righteousness? In addition to rejecting the Gospel, you fail by that standard.

On the Other Hand| 1.8.11 @ 12:00AM

Yes, but what do the Roman Catholics think about the Baptists, the Presbyterians, the Methodists, and just about every other Christian denomination? Does not the Catholic Church judge them unworthy to share in the Eucharist (Communion) ?

Jari| 1.8.11 @ 12:43AM

My understanding of why Catholics do this is that it is not unworthiness, it is a relevant (to them) difference in belief.

They have beliefs in what the Eucharist means that differ from what Protestants believe Communion means.

To allow someone to participate in the Eucharist if they do not believe in the Eucharist is problematic for them.

They let their brother religions share in the Eucharist if, and only if, the religion shares the same belief about what the Eucharist means.

This isn't about judging. It's about boundary issues - protecting the boundaries of their faith.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 5:01PM

Jari,

And if none of this nonsense is even contained in the Bible, it ought to be dismissed forthwith.

darcy| 1.8.11 @ 3:18AM

To On the Other Hand:
And all that's nothing compared to what they think of the Lutherans!

David W| 1.7.11 @ 11:35AM

Dear Ms/Mr./? Moonbeam Black Crow O'Shannasey-Mitchell,
I believe that what will really help sell the new bibles will be the full color illustrations. The ones that show the blessed lifestyles that occurred in Sodom and Gomorrah prior to the accidental destruction of those wonderful cities have sent a tingle up and down my legs – I’m sure it has for you as well. The Sunday School teachers will be able to put them to full use with the pre-K to 6 year olds (of course we don't have to worry about the older children. After all MTV and VH1 as well as the Department of Education are helping spread the word with their gender fluidity training). That ought to help bring in even more members (and their money that we can use to further our societal justice for all causes, except for those stuck in the mud conservatives).
Sincerely,
Your loyal minion…

Lizzie| 1.7.11 @ 4:36PM

Thanks Booger for your post. You could subsitute the words Episcopal Church and apparently a great many other mainline denominations, for Methodist Church and still have an accurate post. It broke my heart to leave the Epis. Church - since I had planned to be "cradle to grave". It has always been the denomination of my heart and now I must find some other to fill the spot. I never thought I would have to actually interview a minister before joining a church, but you can believe I will now!

uburoisc| 1.8.11 @ 10:30AM

Nearly fell off my chair laughing, Booger. Satire sharp enough to be mistaken for the genuine article.

Patrick| 1.8.11 @ 12:13PM

Wow, are you really behind the times RR. O'Shannassey-Mitchell. Apparently you have excluded ephebophiles and those questioning in your acronym. No wonder the Methodist church is always playing catch-up to the Episcopalians in the university circles. It should read LBGTBEHPQ.

Dan Talbot| 1.10.11 @ 9:48PM

This "poetry from the pulpit" approach to Christianity is why the youth of this country are suffering from poor mentoring and crappy example. If the ministers of the Methodist church continue babbling social gospel to their members, they deserve to lose them. If members are ill informed and never bother to read their bibles, they will be spiritually illiterate and fall for the paganism of social gospel. How long can a people remain spiritually empty without rebelling?

Booger| 1.7.11 @ 6:36AM

Read "Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Prophet, Martyr, Spy" by Eric Metaxas if you want to see where all this religious liberalism leads to, and what can be done about it.

Sara B| 1.7.11 @ 8:06AM

Bonhoeffer's book is beside my bed and next in line to read.

Pelligrino| 1.7.11 @ 9:03AM

Thanks, Booger, for the above and the mention of the new book on Dietrich Bonhoeffer's life as an intellectual, stalwart, and scholar. But, of course, foundationally as a man who wanted to know and follow Jesus Christ as Saviour.

National Review had an article on this book and its author three weeks ago.

High time that Am. Spectator did the same!

Herr Bonhoeffer, a man who strove to be a faithful ambassador for Christ, should be a person we all know. He was the real deal.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 12:03PM

A good suggestion to AmSpec about his book.
The Bible is the source to know the mind of God and His ways and indeed there are many Bible believing Christian men and women's books who reflect Christ.

My favorite of all time is John Bunyan. Especially Pilgrim's Progress. If you haven't read it yet, do so forthwith! (You meaning everyone!).

John Bunyan wrote many books and really understand the difference between living with false guilt under the Law, and enjoying God's Grace. If anyone has a problem understanding the difference, his writings are absolutely wonderful.

His book, "Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners" is one of them.

Here's a link for the titles of his others:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Bunyan#Works

Loadmaster| 1.7.11 @ 6:47AM

I'm not totally on board with Judson's thought about the demise of the UMC but dang near close. My wife and I have been member of a local UMC church for the last 10 yrs. I've attended the local charge conferences and seen first hand the politics involved within the church. I've sat on the admin board and I've seen the money that flows from the church to the district. None of this made sense to me or my wife. Our church was slowly dieing. Our church membership was falling but apportionment's continued to increase. We kept loosing Pastors but had NO say in who the replacement was. Each Sunday message was the same across the district. It appeared the UMC just wanted our plate for their social projects (per their website) you would just get you frustrated.

We are no longer associated with our local church. We got tired trying to fight the UMC diehards who continue to live with blinders on. Not realizing what their denomination was up to. Other conservatives in the church also were getting tired of the "same old" message. They to have left the church. We started looking for a church that was not PC and found a church/denomination that truly loves America and is not afraid to speak their mind. We'll never go back. I only hope and pray the good folks in the UMC can take back their church but I don't see that happening.

coal carrier| 1.7.11 @ 7:07AM

I will say a prayer for the United Methodist bishop and hope that divine intervention will bring her to her senses. I will also ask that she use the brain that God gave her. I wonder how she feels about global warming.

TxPastor| 1.10.11 @ 10:40PM

Which one? The UMC has several bishops, male and female. We have a council of bishops. And all of them need prayer for the leadership of the UMC.

Appleby| 1.7.11 @ 7:17AM

Mama is Methodist and will be Methodist until she dies, and she cares nothing for politics -- but the last time I attended a regular (not Christmas Eve) service the sermon was devoted to fund-raising. I was booted out of Methodist Sunday School in Grade 8 for asking if Catholics worshipped graven images (I have since obtained the answer to this -- which is NO), and have found a home in the Catholic Church after trying many others and finding them riddled with politics.

Like every other facet of American life, people need to take back their churches. For Canada the disintegration is too far advanced to be halted, although yesterday it was observed in the papers that Canadian charities are mainly supported by Christians over 50, a group that is dwindling too.

Brian Mc| 1.7.11 @ 7:37AM

It is interesting to ponder the stance of Christian denominations over the course of the past century. Only one still holds to those official dogmas that each and every one of them took for granted so long ago...the Catholic Church, Appleby!

But, with that said, during a "Prayers of the Faithfull" one Sunday, I noted a couple of them that had serious liberal ventings interlaced to the contents of said prayers. I looked about and realized that the congregation, in a stupor, with their minds on only God knows what, mumbled out the expected, "Lord, hear our prayer". I have not been back.

Dan Hirsch| 1.7.11 @ 10:20AM

If you'd like to experience a Church that puts the primacy of Scripture before all other opinions, I'd commend to you the Missouri Synod of the Lutheran Church. Stay clear of the ELCA they share the Methodist's political leanings. I don't have experience with the Wisconsin or other Synods, but I do recommend the LCMS.

In His Name,

DH

Joe| 1.7.11 @ 1:00PM

I am sorry to hear you have not been back, I pray you try again, with the following knowledge: Prayers of the Faithful are not handed down from Rome or the Diocese. They are decided on by your churches liturgical committee. What you heard was something that was submitted and accepted by them. If it did not ring true, please ask to speak with one of those committee members, and find out what the story is.

In the mean time, you don't have to respond "Lord hear our prayer" to something that offends you. A well formed Catholic conscience is rightfully allowed to object.

Liberal Reader| 1.7.11 @ 2:36PM

How would you define "liberal ventings?" I'd like to hear some examples.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 5:14PM

One can simply do a search here under the name "Liberal Reader".

Jari| 1.8.11 @ 1:03AM

Re: liberal venting

"It is your duty to to fix the lines (of doctrine) clearly in your minds: and if you wish to go beyond them you must change your profession. This is your duty not specially as Christians or as priests but as honest men. There is a danger here of the clergy developing a special professional conscience which obscures the very plain moral issue. Men who have passed beyond these boundary lines in either direction are apt to protest that they have come by their unorthodox opinions honestly. In defense of those opinions they are prepared to suffer obloquy and to forfeit professional advancement. They thus come to feel like martyrs. But this simply misses the point which so gravely scandalizes the layman. We never doubted that the unorthodox opinions were honestly held: what we complain of is your continuing in your ministry after you have come to hold them. We always knew that a man who makes his living as a paid agent of the Conservative Party may honestly change his views and honestly become a Communist. What we deny is that he can honestly continue to be a Conservative agent and to receive money from one party while he supports the policy of the other."

-- Christian Apologetics, C. S. Lewis, Easter 1945

Brian Mc| 1.8.11 @ 7:08AM

Thanks, Jari
No matter the political leanings: the politics do NOT belong in the prayers I mentioned above.
"Dear Lord, help the government feed the poor" vs. "Dear Lord, give us the strength to carry our charity to those most in need and through your grace, give us the strength to remain humble"

Some might see the difference...then, again others may not and ask for further examples.

As far as Catholic Catechism goes, I have two copies and really find it pointless to argue points of dogma found within, let alone, join the liturgical committee and argue with them whether angels have the right to dance on the head of a pin. This also, goes for the ministry. The night of 9/11 I showed up to a packed house and heard Mass. During the homily, did we here about righteous indignation against evil in all its forms? No, we got a sermon on Cain and Abel and revenge and were made to feel shame for our emotions in that trying moment. I was shocked; several members of the congregation left in the middle of this interlocution that condemned all for their lack of love. I found it interesting in that there seems to be no problem getting the government involved with social welfare but to get it to do its job, protecting the country from evil attacks, was sinful. What folly.

Jari| 1.8.11 @ 10:12AM

I have actually had it happen myself, recently, that people at church feel that they know more than the church about what's right and wrong.

To me the line gets crossed when they start assuming not only that their opinions are right, but that it is, or ought to be, self-evident that their position is superior (as opposed to something that requires argumentative persuasion).

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 4:58PM

The Bible says that we who receive His Spirit become children of God.
It also says that we are saints.. living, now. It also says that we are in fact commanded to preach the gospel of Jesus Christ boldly both in season and out.
It also says that we have no need for anyone to teach us anything.. for we all know.
How? By the Holy Spirit.
All of this is actually contained in the New Testament. You ought to actually read it sometime, and not listen to men who make themselves God and try and tell you otherwise.
Bewrae of false teachers who want to have all the power.
The power belongs to Christ, and His children, whom He gives it to:

As it is written:

"But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, He gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn. 1:12 & 13.

"Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience." Eph. 5:6.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 2:17PM

Appleby, Do Roman Catholics worship graven images? Do they worship Saints? Do they worship Mary? Do they believe in justification by works? No, not officially. But having grown up surrounded by Catholics, I know what the people in the pews believe. The answer is "yes" to all of the above, and their knowledge of the Bible and how it affects what they do in real life is abysmal. That's why so many prominent Dems believe they are "good Catholics" and get the votes to prove it.

Appleby| 1.7.11 @ 4:54PM

EWTN is beginning to deal with these misunderstandings, and some of our local Catholic churches are also explaining the difference between veneration and worship, for example -- and the way the Saints were explained to me, it is no different saying "Saint Peregrine [patron saint of those suffering from cancer, among other things], pray for me" than it is saying "Susan, please pray for me" to your sister. The Saints in Heaven are in charge of praying and they get much closer to God in, um, person than we do -- but essentially they are our brothers and sisters and we are asking them to pray for us as we do our own brothers and sisters on earth.

Mormons worship their Heavenly Mother, whom they believe gave birth to THEM (as spirit children) before they were sent to Earth to serve out their probation before becoming gods and goddesses. Catholics venerate Mary -- hold her in high esteem -- because she is the mother of Jesus.

There are probably more people in the Baptist church who worshipped Bear Bryant than people in the Catholic church who worship Mary.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 4:51PM

According to the Bible, a saint is any Christian living who follows and obeys Christ, according to His words which are contained in the Bible.

The whole Catholic thing of canonnisation (sp.) is false and unbiblical, as well as praying to the dead.

If you care about God's truth, you will read His words and reject these false teachings by men who make themselves God.

Rick| 1.8.11 @ 12:10AM

I grew up Catholic but left the church as a young man because I felt I could not agree with many of the teachings and because of all too numerous examples of hypocrisy, or so I told myself. The reality was that I wanted an excuse to "enjoy myself" without feeling it was wrong.

Funny thing, whenever I got into a discussion on religion or morality I found myself defending the Catholic Church more than bashing it. Too many people attack a denomination for the behavior they witness rather than the doctrine that is taught. As Christians we should keep in mind that we are all flawed, including our institutions. Failure to live up to Christ's perfection does not mean it is not worth trying and it does not mean we should abandon a church that fails to live up to our expectations. I have a sneaking suspicion that Christ was well aware that his flawed servants might make a misstep or there.
I am still on my spiritual journey. I do not know where it will end in terms of where I worship. I hope the ultimate end is the salvation we were promised but I have come to the conclusion it is more up to my actions as opposed to the actions of those around me. I told myself that I believed on God but I rejected the flawed institution of organized religion. It was an epiphany when I realized that I was permitting the flaws of my fellow sinners to distract me from both the Good News and from my own sins.
I chose to go back to an ELCA church. I could not go back to the RC Church because I still cannot reconcile myself with some teachings. It was a bit of a shock when I realized how politically active the ELCA is. They have proven themselves willing to throw marriage under the bus to support a political agenda. I did a lot of soul searching trying to decide what was the proper course of action. I will remind you of the lesson I referred to above - do not permit the flaws of your fellow sinners distract you from Christ's message. The congregation my family has joined is terrific. The leadership of the ELCA is deeply flawed. Some of my fellow congregants are, in my opinion, misguided. However, the positives outweigh, for the moment, the negatives. The experience of attending this church is too valuable to give up lightly. It is worth fighting for.
A good portion of the congregation direct their offerings to the local church and forbid any of their donation from going to the synod. I also have chosen to direct more of our donations to mission work outside of the church. You could argue that
this is more symbolic than tangible but the reality
has been different. Our church s not hitting it's budgetary goals. In January we will, as a congregation, have to make some budget cuts. A substantial minority of us refuse to donate to the synod. It will be interesting to see how it plays out.
I walked away from one church I disagreed with in my past. If necessary, I will do so again. The difference is that today, I think the church is worth fighting for.

darcy| 1.8.11 @ 3:28AM

Please take this opportunity, Rick, to obtain a copy of Patsy A. Leppien's What's Going on Among Lutherans: A Comparison of Beliefs, Northwestern Publishing House.

You will be glad you did.

Lillith| 1.8.11 @ 1:59PM

Evanston2 - speak only of what you *know*. I am over 50 years old, have been Roman Catholic all my life and NO Catholics do not worship graven images, or saints or Mary, mother of our Lord Jesus. We acknowledge a communion of saints - that those holy men and women can pray for us and help us. This not the same as worship the Lord. Either know what you are talking about or stay quiet - your prejudices are unseemly.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 4:47PM

Praying to the dead is not Biblical. It is a lie and a doctrine of demons.. read your Bible and then speak as to who speaks of what they know.

Evanston2| 1.9.11 @ 11:50PM

Lillith, Thank you for reading my comment and replying. It's be nice if you define for me what you mean by "worship" and how this differs from "acknowledge." My prejudices? Well, my great uncle was a priest, my great aunt (still alive) is a nun, I was baptized Catholic, grew up with Catholics and the church I now attend is full of former Catholics. I have attended weddings and other ceremonies with "veneration" of Mary, co-workers have recommended prayers to various "saints." I am familiar with the official policy of Rome that draws a distinction between "veneration" and "worship" yet what I said, if you read carefully, is that the people in the pews worship. Again, please define what you mean, we may even agree although we choose different words. Here is my belief (sorry if it is "unseemly"): what matters is what the people in the pews actually believe, not the fine distinctions on dusty documents in the Parish library, etc. You're statement that "Catholics do not worship graven images, or saints or Mary" violates your own standard: that I "speak only of what you *know*". Are you omniscient? Do you know, positively, that no Catholics worship graven images. There was a gathering this weekend in the Philippines involving 1 million Catholics who worshiped (my word) a graven image of Jesus (the "Black Nazarene"). You may say that this image only served as a reminder of the Christ. I read the Bible and see how God forbade such images, never describes a physical description of Jesus, and how an object that was used to heal (Num 21:8) that later was worshiped and destroyed because people made offerings to it (2 Kings 18:4). Are offerings made to graven images, Mary, or the "saints?" If so, using a Biblical standard, then Catholics DO worship them. Again, I look forward to reading your version of what constitutes "worship" but if you find the word of God "unseemly" then you have a very big problem.

Melvin| 1.7.11 @ 8:21AM

I would like to ask all of you something. In your religious opinion, do you think that organized religion (Churches) have departed from preaching the gospel of Jesus to preaching the gospel of man (politics, social lifestyles, p/c type things)?

JimP| 1.7.11 @ 8:49AM

I agree that many of them have.

Bruce| 1.7.11 @ 9:14AM

Melvin;
IMO a lot of the churches have deviated from preaching the Gospel. The only way to avoid "indoctrination" is to read for yourself, ponder, and study. If you believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, he will let you know what is right and wrong. Churches and congregations are OK for the spiritual support they provide, but the bottom line is what YOU believe to be true.

Ryan| 1.7.11 @ 10:13AM

I think this can be a dangerous road to go down. Though I do agree there is a large amount of personal responsibility in Bible studies and figuring out what one needs to believe, limiting the Holy Spirit to just that methodology is dangerous.

He has also led people far smarter and insightful than we are to discoveries, and the Holy Spirit doesn't just work inwardly - He works through other people and fellow believers who have gone before us as well.

Churches and congregations aren't just "ok." They are ESSENTIAL for spiritual growth.

And the bottom line isn't what I or you or anyone else believes the Truth is, because the Truth isn't dependant on my belief.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 2:24PM

Ryan, If I read Bruce's comment accurately, he's saying he doesn't believe in "Salvation by Denomination." A lot of people (Catholics in particular) believe they are saved by having the right membership card. Their actual beliefs are often directly contrary to the Bible. Yes, we are called to gather together, and if Bruce is saying otherwise he is acting contrary to the clear practices of the early church as detailed in Acts and Hebrews 10:25. But I believe Bruce is saying that we are accountable for our own, personal faith in The Judgement.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 11:14AM

Bruce is absolutely correct, since the Biblical meaning of church has nothing to do with a building or a denomination, but Christ dwells IN you, and your body is the temple of His Spirit, (if you have received it), and wherever we are gathered, in His Name IS church. Even now, here, gathered together in His Name.. is church.

As it is written:

"For where two or three are gathered in my Name, there am I in the midst of them." Mt. 18:20.

"..and let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." Heb. 10:24 & 25.

"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own..: 1 Cor. 6:19.

"Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands." Acts 7:48.

Ruth Bacon| 1.9.11 @ 2:13AM

Good for you, Bruce. Too many become complacent, attending church on Sunday as obligatory and hearing only what the current pastor preaches.
II Timothy 2:15 (one of my favorite verses, in the King James) "Study to show thyself approved unto God a workman that need not to be ashamed, rightyly dividing the word of truth."
or the New Am. Standard says, "Be diligent ... handling accurately the word of truth."

Ryan| 1.7.11 @ 10:10AM

It's too general a question, though I think that it IS something that affects both left (with the whole Social Gospel drivel) and right (prosperity theology, megachurch tendencies - ie Joel Osteen) with the avoidance of the Gospel - the message that we are sinners in need of Salvation, which is only provided through Christ.

Walkthetalk| 1.7.11 @ 10:11AM

Remember the Communist Goals of 1963.
24) Eliminate all laws governing obscenity by calling them "censorship" and a violation of free speech and free press.
25) Break down cultural standards of morality by promoting pornography, and obscenity in books, magazines, motion pictures, radio and TV.
26) Present homosexuality, degeneracy, and promiscuity as "normal, natural, and healthy."
27) Infiltrate the churches and replace revealed religion with "social" religion. Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."
28) Eliminate prayer or any phase of religious expression in the schools on the grounds that it violates the principle of "separation of church and state."
The liberals love organizations, so be aware (or beware) of their churches. They will follow the Social gospel - Communist path. Read your own Bibles. If the churches in your area are corrupted meet with fellow conservative Christians in your homes. If you don’t know the Bible, go to www.christforamericans.com Don’t skim this site, read it. The Bible (Old and New Testament) is all about God and what he does for us. The main focus is the Messiah (Jesus), not man (as in the social gospel churches of the left). As such, your focus should not be on yourself (as in the social gospel churches of the left), but on Jesus. In him is life. Let me illustrate: if you want to go to the mall you drive; if you want to go travel across Europe you take a train; if you want to go to Europe you take a plane; if you want to go to the moon you take a space ship; if you want to go to heaven you must take Jesus; he is the only way you can get there. He loves you and he wants you with him. The social gospel churches say you have to finish the work Jesus left unfinished, so you have to create utopia on earth. Let it be known, everything necessary for life has been done through Jesus. The only thing you have to do is repent. The other option is death, separation from God. Those in Jesus are changed: new life, new outlook, new options, new language, new goals (the complete opposite of the Communist Goals), new friends, real hope, and real love (from God). Abandon those liberal churches and turn to Jesus.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 11:26AM

"Discredit the Bible and emphasize the need for intellectual maturity, which does not need a "religious crutch."

Absolutely correct.
Just like the Left now claims conservatives are "fetishising" the Constitution, (who heard Rush's show yesterday speaking about this?), so the Left and Liberal Christians accuse Biblical Christians as "worshipping the book (Bible) instead of God!

What a lie that truly is, because God gave us the Bible, and His words are found there. Read it and you'll see how He says that if you love Him, you will listen to His words. And He constantly warns about about false doctrine and not straying from His gospel into vain Religion.

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths." 2 Tim. 4:3 & 4.

We all see this happening all around us, but at the same time no need to be fearful because your relationship with Christ and sticking with what the Bible says will keep you on the straight and narrow, along with fellowship with other Christians. Being a lonely or alone Christian is definately not a good thing. I know that personally, full well. The Enemy seeks to pick apart the body of Christ, and succeeds in weakening us when remain alone. So Ryan's right about that aspect of the danger he speaks of.

David T.| 1.7.11 @ 12:10PM

The one church that has remained true for 2000 years is the Catholic Church. It has held fast to the deposit of faith received from Christ and the Apostles. It has been battered and bruised over the centuries, but the Gates of Hell have not prevailed against it, nor will they ever. Many "churches" have deviated from the truth because they lack the solid foundation of the Rock of St. Peter. Protestantism is doomed to fail because it rests on the sandy soil of subjectivism, which leads to pietism on the one hand or utopianism on the other. The Catholic Church stands above all others because it is Christ's body, apostolic, visible, hierarchical, sacramental, and sacerdotal. You can't have Christ without His body, the Church.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 12:32PM

Completely false.
The Catholic Religion's doctrine are not Biblical, plain and simple.
I take my stand on the Bible, and it is where God's own words can be had by all.

Joe| 1.7.11 @ 1:27PM

Margie, the Catholic church was responsible for the compilation of the Bible, which you hold so dear. Without the early church, it would not exist. Please be open minded, try this site and learn more:
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0501fea4.asp

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 2:18PM

There is a difference between the word Catholic and the word catholic.

The catholic (meaning universal) church is the body of believers throughout the earth, of which I am a member.

The Catholic Religion of today I am not a member of, and am not in agreement with, and my mind is only as open as the Holy Bible permits it to be.

Evanston2 | 1.7.11 @ 2:36PM

Joe, The Roman church was "responsible for the compilation of the Bible." Let's grant that for a second. So, what did it do with this precious Word? Kept it hidden from the masses, preaching in Latin, killing those who dared to translate it into a common tongue. Further, the Bible books were collected and commonly accepted prior to the primacy of the Bishop of Rome. Finally, the definitive list of books that Rome considers Biblical was only approved at Trent, after the Protestant reformation. Put another way, the Catholic "compilation" you so boldly mention was only a reaction to Protestant devotion to God's Word. It's laughable that you ask us to try "and learn more" when this discussion could only be in Latin if Rome still enslaved people in its adoption of pagan practices.

victor| 1.7.11 @ 4:31PM

Joe:
"Without the early church, it (the Bible) would not exist."

The Bible was written in Hebrew and then in Greek.
In 500 AD a pope decreed that the Bible would only be written in Latin and those who disobeyed were punished severely.

If it were not for William Tyndale and John Hus and other martyrs who were murdered for the "crime" of translating the Bible into English so that regular people could read God's Word and be nourished, we would still be listening to priests speaking in Latin and telling us what God really meant to say.

Foxe’s Book of Martyrs records that in 1517, seven people were burned at the stake by the Roman Catholic Church for the crime of teaching their children to say the Lord’s Prayer in English rather than Latin.

http://www.victorious.org/chur40.htm

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 3:16AM

Same Old Victor-Margie Anti-Catholic Bull Crap.

William Tyndale was murdered in a conspiracy by an agent of King Henry VIII.
William Tyndale's last words were, "Lord, open the King of England's eyes."

victor| 1.8.11 @ 10:03AM

ClinTimmy:
"William Tyndale was murdered in a conspiracy by an agent of King Henry VIII."

Yes, that would be Thomas More, a catholic, wouldn't it?
He persecuted William Tyndale and was ultimately responsible for martyring him.

Evanston2| 1.8.11 @ 12:20PM

Victor, Absolutely correct to mention More. Henry VIII was a good Catholic when he killed Tyndale. Yet when More is portrayed as a victim of Henry, the crimes of this "Saint" are never mentioned. Live by the sword, die by the sword.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 4:15PM

Henry was not "a good Catholic when he killed Tyndale." He broke with the Church in 1534, murdered Thomas More in 1535. It wasn't until 1536 that Tyndale was murdered at Henry's behest, well after his break with the Church was final.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 3:59PM

More battled Tyndale with words. Tyndale was betrayed by a friend of his in Antwerp, where he was seized and executed. More had already been murdered by the newly-Protestant king when Tyndale was executed in 1536. The calumny against More arose from the efforts of Henry VIII's apologists such as Fox to create martyrs for new Anglican church. And I'm an Anglican.

Evanston2| 1.10.11 @ 12:07AM

RCV, Good point...to a point. In 1524 Tyndale fled to Europe, a decade before Henry abandoned Romanism. He obviously did so to avoid punishment, but you're right, I cannot say conclusively that he would have been executed by Henry if he had stayed. Regarding More, in 1532 he issued a "Confutation of Tyndale's Answer" which called Tyndale a traitor and a heretic. Like you say, "More battled Tyndale with words" but I'm fairly certain that being a traitor and/or heretic back then was a death sentence. But technically you're right, More just used words. More could hardly do more as the crown would likely be displeased if Roman clergy executed anyone they wished in England. No, they needed a royal edict and More provided the basis for it. Overall, I find your position on Henry to be a facile editing of the timeline and on More to be a distinction without a difference.

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 1:29PM

"The Bible is the most preserved work of literature in our history. In fact, there are approximately 5,600 original manuscripts still today. When the Catholic church translated into English in 1966, it used as many of the original texts as there were. What is most interesting is that in 1415 AD, Erasus translated to English using 5 copies of a German translation. Then King James used Erasus translation to come up with the KJV of the bible. Ever wonder why there are differences???? These differences are very minor other than the KJV not including the Apocrypha as God had originally inspired. If we all agree that the Bible is inspired by God, then how can we as man decide later that those books we don't agree with are not?

Roman Catholic Answer
It was Protestantism that removed these "deuterocanonical" books from the Bible, many centuries later. And contrary to the myth, the early Church did indeed accept these books as Scripture."

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 2:35PM

To Clint/Tim*

First of all, you are a dishonest man so nothing you say can be trusted.
Why do you post under another name?

As to the early "church fathers", most of them had their own ideas, as does the Catholic Religion.
The Apocrypha was added by Jerome, and is not inspired by the Holy Spirit. It did not agree with the rest of the Bible's teachings~ that of the Apostles and Christ's own words. That is why is was rejected by Bible believing Christians. It is one of the many reasons I reject the Religion.

David T| 1.7.11 @ 3:21PM

Margie--The books known as the Apocrypha were actually removed from the OT canon circa 100 A.D. by the Jews, who sought to expunge the overt references to the Resurrection. It was Jerome who rightfully restored these books. And it was Martin Luther who wanted to remove James and Revelation from the NT, but the Council of Trent anathematized any such action. Last, the early Church Fathers were remarkably consistent in their ecclesiology. They believed in a visible, hierarchical church that administered the sacraments through the apostolic priesthood.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 4:06PM

"They believed in a visible, hierarchical church that administered the sacraments through the apostolic priesthood."

Yes, continuing in their unbiblical practices. Another reason they are wrong, and why I will not partake.

If that's what you choose to follow, so be it.

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 4:51PM

You're a Serial Reckless Slandering Liar & A Lapsed Catholic with an Ax to Grind against The Catholic Church.
You have a Track Record on American Spectator of taking Shots at The Catholic Church.

Go Tell Your Crap to Your Catholic Mommy & Daddy and See If They Buy It.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 4:57PM

Tim*/Clint:

You are a blatant liar.
I have said NOTHING untrue.
I hope you repent before it's too late.

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 5:18PM

You're The Anti-Catholic School Bus callin' The Lemon Pie Yellow Anti-Catholic Apocalyptic Crank Lady Margie Margie.

Go To Hell You Nasty Joisey White Trash Bigot.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 5:06PM

Furthermore:

"Catholic comes from the Greek, KATHOLIKOS, which means "throughout the whole, or universal," and was used as a general reference to the entire Christian church until the reformation period. However, as early as the fourth century, the Catholic church began adopting traditions and beliefs which were never a part of original Christianity as seen in the New Testament. It appears that many of these new ideas first emerged from the era of the Roman Emperor, Constantine who ruled from 313 to 337 A.D."

Read the history of the Catholic church here:

http://www.victorious.org/chur40.htm

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 5:27PM

First, tell all the practicing Jews & Muslims where you say they go when they die.

Then give us Your Eisegesis. The reading into a text, in this case, an ancient text of the Bible, of a meaning that is not supported by the grammar, syntax, lexical meanings, and over-all context, of the original. It is the opposite of exegesis, where you read out of the text its original meaning by careful attention to the same things, grammar, syntax, the lexical meanings of the words used by the author (as they were used in his day and in his area), and the over-all context of the document.

You're Up Anti-Catholic Bigot.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 5:30PM

In continuance of the Truth that is in Christ:

"In contrast to his predecessor, Diocletian, who had vowed to destroy Christianity in 303, Constantine claimed a conversion to Christianity and virtually instituted it as the empire's religion by his Edict of Milan in 313 A.D. This proclamation of religious freedom brought about many positive changes for the church, and was certainly a much welcomed turnabout from the years of brutal persecution. But instead of converting completely from the old practices of paganism, this and the new Christian religion were somewhat mingled together. Since an Emperor was viewed as a god by pagan standards, and he already held the lifelong position of "Pontifex Maximus," chief priest of the pagan state religion, Constantine felt it only proper that he should also claim a high position of leadership in the church — he also authorized many of his secular officials as church leaders. This merger of a pagan, Christian and political hierarchy, produced a diluted spiritual leadership for the church, and its beliefs and doctrines thereafter became increasingly infected with a strange combination of traditions and pagan beliefs."

http://www.victorious.org/chur40.htm

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 5:39PM

Duuuuhhhh !

Constantine did not change any beliefs of the Church. The canon of scripture was decided 60 years after he died, and the usual laundry list produced by Fundamentalists (saints, shrines, water baptism, Eucharist, etc.) originated from fulfilled types in Judaism (tzadikim, ohalim, mikvah, and olah respectively), not paganism.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 5:41PM

"In Addition, the Catholic church has traditionally regulated the type of Bible translation used in the church. For centuries, the only version authorized for use was the Latin Vulgate, a translation from the original languages by Jerome, in around 400 A.D. This Bible reads very similar to Protestant translations, however with a major exception. The Catholic version contains the Apocrypha, a collection of seven complete books and a few additions to others. These are considered non-inspired writings written between the period of the Old and New Testaments. Only one is actually dated. Two books, Judith and Tobit tell of the Assyrian and Babylonian invasions. Two more, 1st and 2nd Maccabees record the Jewish war of independence of around 165 B.C. Two more, Ecclesiasticus and Wisdom of Solomon, are considered books of wisdom. Another is an addendum to Jeremiah, and there are short additions to Esther and Daniel. The Protestants do not include them because they have never met the criteria for divine inspiration. Further, the writings of Jewish historian Josephus (in 90 A.D.) indicated that the Jews did not accept the books of the Apocrypha as a part of their scriptures, and although Jesus and the Apostles quoted frequently and accurately from almost every other Old Testament book, never once did they quote from the Apocrypha".

This is where all kinds of false doctrines came in.
Like praying to the dead.
Mary as the mother of God.
And numerous others that are not spoken of by the Apostles or Christ.
This is what I mean by unBiblical.

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 7:48PM

A few things need to be said here. First of all, the seven books in question--Tobit, Judith, 1 and 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, and Baruch--are properly called the deuterocanonical books.

Second, the label "unscriptural" was first applied by the Protestant Reformers of the 16th century. The truth is, portions of these books contradict elements of Protestant doctrine (as in the case of 2 Maccabees 12, which clearly supports prayers for the dead and a belief in purgatory), and the "reformers" therefore needed some excuse to eliminate them from the canon. However, these books are "unscriptural" only if misinterpreted. It should also be noted that the first-century Christians--including Jesus and the apostles--effectively considered these seven books canonical. They quoted from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew scriptures that contained these seven books. More importantly, the deuterocanonicals are clearly alluded to in the New Testament.

Third, the canon of the entire Bible was essentially settled around the turn of the fourth century. Up until this time, there was disagreement over the canon, and some ten different canonical lists existed, none of which corresponded exactly to what the Bible now contains. Around this time there were no less than five instances when the canon was formally identified: the Synod of Rome (382), the Council of Hippo (393), the Council of Carthage (397), a letter from Pope Innocent I to Exsuperius, Bishop of Toulouse (405), and the Second Council of Carthage (419). In every instance, the canon was identical to what Catholic Bibles contain today. In other words, from the end of the fourth century on, in practice Christians accepted the Catholic Church's decision in this matter.

By the time of the Reformation, Christians had been using the same 73 books in their Bibles (46 in the Old Testament, 27 in the New Testament)--and thus considering them inspired--for more than 1100 years. This practice changed with Martin Luther, who dropped the deuterocanonical books on nothing more than his own say-so. Protestantism as a whole has followed his lead in this regard.

One of the two "pillars" of the Protestant Reformation (sola scriptura or "the Bible alone") in part states that nothing can be added to or taken away from God's Word. History shows therefore that Protestants are guilty of violating their own doctrine.

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 7:43PM

We once again note thatApocalyptic Crank Lady Margie refuses to address and exspose her personal biased beliefs about practicing Jews & Muslims don't go to heaven.
This is The usual Game She Plays with The Truth.

victor| 1.8.11 @ 3:39AM

ClinTimmy*:
"We once again note thatApocalyptic Crank Lady Margie"

Once again ClinTimmy* is slandering my wife by violating the Ninth Commandment:
Exd 20:16 "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor."

Some Christian you are, or maybe you ain't: if you can lie about another Christian.
Especially if she is telling the truth about you.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 11:34AM

Victor-Margie, " She Ain't No Christian, She's Me"

Victor-Margie Is The Industrial Strength Anti-Catholic Resident Bigot of American Spectator.

You're An Insane Fanatic Anti-Catholic Bigot ,Among Your Other Religious Bigotry.

CINO, Christian In Name Only.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 6:48PM

To all:

Clint who is Tim* is lying. I never said this.
He is a cyber-stalker who has posted IN MY NAME in previous threads saying these different things and thereby attributing them to me. Then, he will show up and insist that I "Tell AmSpec readers you said such and such".

Vile human refuse.

victor| 1.10.11 @ 2:33AM

Bishop Timmy*:
"The reading into a text, in this case, an ancient text of the Bible, of a meaning that is not supported by the grammar, syntax, lexical meanings, and over-all context, of the original"

Mat 23:9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven."

After reading this verse by Jesus Himself,
tell us how you justify calling That Man In The Vatican: "Holy Father"

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 5:31PM

Duuuuhhhhh !
We Catholics know where the word Catholic comes from Pseudo-Christian Bloviator Apocalyptic Crank Lady Victor-Margie.

We've been through Your Anti-Catholic Stomp before Ad Infinitum.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 5:45PM

In continuance of the Truth that I serve that is in Christ Jesus, Lord of Heaven and Earth:

"The Christian creed adopted at the Council of Nicaea in 325 (called for and presided over by Constantine) was theologically encouraging, but it was also in this era that the church first accepted such unscriptural ideas as praying for the dead, the veneration of angels and dead saints, the use of images, and the celebration of daily mass. This regression from scripture continued through the Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., where the worship of Mary became an official doctrine of the church, referring to her as the "Mother of God." And only nine years later in 440, Leo, bishop of Rome was the first to declare himself the successor of St. Peter and laid claim to the role of Universal Bishop, a forerunner of papal authority. While this was widely disputed, Leo commanded that all should obey him on the false notion that he held the primacy of St. Peter.

Later, Leo's successor, Gregory I, was given the title of universal "Pope" (Latin "papas" or father) by the wicked emperor Phocas in 604. He refused the title, however his successor, Boniface III, did accept it and became the first in a long line of successors to be recognized as Pope. Under the new papal authority in the seventh century, many more new beliefs were added to the church, such as the unbiblical doctrine of purgatory (593), the required use of Latin in prayer and worship (600), and prayers said to Mary, dead saints and angels (600).

One reason many of these strange ideas gained accepted credibility was because the Bible was not readily available to the common people, either in print or in translation. They had no idea what the Bible really taught. It was restricted only to priests trained to interpret it as it pleased the church hierarchy. Further, the popes claimed the authority to speak under the unique utterance of "Ex Cathedria," which in effect meant divine inspiration. Their proclamations and decrees carried supreme authority to interpret or overrule Holy Scripture, and to invent whatever doctrines or practices they wished.

The next four hundred years saw many more new beliefs added to the church: The ritual kissing of the Pope's foot (709), temporal (political) power granted to the Pope (750), worship of the crucifix, images and relics (786), holy water mixed with a pinch of salt and blessed by a priest (850), the worship of St. Joseph (890), the establishment of the college of Cardinals to elect the popes (927), the baptism of bells (965), the canonization of dead saints (995), and prescribed fastings on Fridays and during lent (998)."

ttp://www.victorious.org/chur40.htm

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 8:00PM

Asked & Answered Anti-Catholic Bigot Margie.

You are desperately attempting to undermine Catholicism by throwing A Volume of MUD Against The Wall , hoping something will stick and repeatedly being shown to be a deliberate and sneaky cynical distorter of the facts and the truth.

You are truly a CINO.

Christian In Name Only.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 9:48PM

Continuing with the Truth in Christ Jesus my Lord, the actual history of the Catholic Church, searchable by anyone with eyes that seeks the Truth:

A break in the church occurred in 1054 over a relatively trivial issue, when the eastern church condemned the western church for the use of unleavened bread in the Eucharist. The dispute resulted in Rome's attempt to excommunicate Michael Cerulararious, the Patriarch of Constantinople, who in turn, sought to excommunicate Pope Leo IX of Rome. From that time, the western (Roman Catholic) church and the eastern (Greek Orthodox) churches developed separately — each with their distinct traditions. A classic example of a church split.

As the Roman Catholic Church continued with new independence, it added even more remarkable doctrines that were not taken from the Bible. In 1079, Pope Gregory VII declared the shocking decree of celibacy for the priesthood. Peter the Hermit invented the technique of praying with rosary beads in 1090. A few of the other beliefs and practices authorized by the church were: The inquisition of alleged heretics (1184), the sale of indulgences (1190), the doctrine of transubstantiation (1215), auricular confession of sins to a priest instead of to God (1215), adoration of the wafer (1220), the forbidding of Bible reading by laity (1229), the scapular (1251), the forbidding of sharing the communion cup with laity (1414), the establishment of purgatory as an irrefutable dogma (1439), and the composition of the "Ave Maria" (1508).

Up to this point, the somewhat similar Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches were the two main institutions representing Christianity. But in the sixteenth century, events occurred which would bring a worldshaking reformation of Christian thought. A Catholic monk and professor of theology named Martin Luther, became convinced that the Bible was the only true authority in matters of spiritual instruction, and sought to reform the church with this new insight and to expose its errant doctrines.

Born in Eisleben in 1483, Luther first pursued studies in law at Erfurt, but in 1505 he chose instead to join the Augustinian Hermits in Erfurt where he studied theology. After his ordination in 1507, he was sent by his order to the university of Wittenburg to teach moral theology, and in 1512 he became the professor of biblical studies.

Luther's ambitions of reformation emerged from his lifelong search for spiritual conclusions in his personal life. After many years of studying the scriptures, he came to reject all theology based only on tradition and embraced the idea of a personal relationship with Jesus Christ through faith. He believed that all our actions stem from God and that He chose to forgive the sinner by His sovereign grace — that we are justified not by our deeds, but by faith alone. In 1520, Luther wrote a treatise to Pope Leo X, called "The Freedom of A Christian," which outlined the conclusions of his study of scripture. In it, he made this famous statement: "The word of God cannot be received and cherished by any works whatever, but only by faith. Therefore it is clear that as the soul needs only the Word of God for its life and righteousness, so it is justified by faith alone and not by works; for if it could be justified by anything else, it would not need the Word and consequently, it would not need faith."

The move toward reformation began to emerge on the eve of All Saints Day, October 31, 1517, when Martin Luther announced a disputation regarding the indulgences of the church. He stated his argument in 95 theses which he posted on the north door of the Castle Church in Wittenburg — an act not especially unusual as the church doors were often used as a notice board.

The 95 Theses were not originally intended to promote a reformation movement. They were simply the proposal of an earnest university professor to discuss the theology of indulgences in light of the errors and abuses that had grown over the centuries. Although heavily academic in tone, news of them spread rapidly in Europe. All were amazed how one obscure monk from a new and unknown university could stir the whole of Europe.

The sale of indulgences, which Luther opposed, was based upon a common fear of purgatory, supposedly a painful place of temporal "purging" of the soul after death to make the soul pure for entrance into Heaven. The people would pay for the special indulgences of a priest to shorten their term in purgatory. Luther saw that this trade in indulgences was completely unfounded by scripture, reason or tradition. It was, in effect, directing attention away from God and His forgiveness and looking to man for the absolving of sins.

In December of 1517, the archbishop of Mainz complained to Rome about Luther. Confronted with opposition, Luther's stand became even more determined. He refused to recant his position, and fled town when summoned to Rome. In July 1519, during a disputation at Leipzig with John Eck, his fiercest opponent, Luther denied the supremacy of the Pope and the infallibility of general councils. He burned the papal bull which threatened his excommunication, but nevertheless, the decree came from the Pope in 1520, and he was subsequently outlawed by the Emperor Charles V at Worms in 1521. For his safety, Luther was seized and taken to Wartburg Castle under the protection of Frederick of Saxony. While there, he spent his time translating the New Testament into German so that everyone might have access to the Bible.

Eight months later in 1522, he returned to Wittenburg to begin the reform of worship away from the rigid forms of Rome. Over the next 25 years, Luther published many books in German, written to the common people so that they could judge for themselves, his doctrines and disputes with Rome. As a result, his followers continued to multiply.

In 1529, at the Diet of Speyer, the Emperor Charles V attempted to smother Luther's movement by force, but some of the German state princes stood up in protest. Thus, because of their protest, the movement began to be known as the "Protestants." What had originally been intended to bring reform to Catholicism from within, was now an ousted reformation, forced to split from the original body.

In 1530, Luther presented beliefs of the new movement at the Diet of Augsburg, in a peace-seeking, non controversial attempt to explain their views. But as a result, the division between the Catholic and Protestants remained and became more distinct. New churches began to emerge referred to as "Evangelical" or "Protestant." And from this came three other branches: The Lutherans (in Germany and Scandinavia), the Zwinglian and Calvinists (in Switzerland, France, Holland and Scotland), and the Church of England.

Significant social, political and economic changes followed the reformation, and in some ways helped to shape it further before Luther's death in 1546. But besides exposing the errant beliefs of Catholicism, the reformation which produced the Protestant church was primarily a rediscovery of the authority of God's Word and the salvation which is by faith in the savior, our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is a brief explanation of the historical origin of Catholics and Protestants, and as you can see, the disparities are many. But in the simplest of terms, the basic difference between them is the authority they look to for their beliefs. The Protestant Church generally embraces the Bible as its sole source of authority and faith, while the Catholic Church views the post-biblical traditions of the church and its Popes to have more than equal authority with scripture.

http://www.victorious.org/chur40.htm

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 10:05PM

You may be a Catholic, but you are not a Christian.

"If any one says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen." 1 Jn. 4:20.

"Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." 1 Jn. 3:15.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 2:33AM

You're A Serial Anti-Catholic Bigot, with a Chronic Ax to Grind against The Catholic Church & Catholics.
You're A Fraud Hypocrite CINO: Christian In Name Only.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:02PM

I'm a fake because I tell the truth?
No, rather you are a slanderer because you curse me and tell me to go to Hell for doing so.
You are a nothing.
You are a nobody.
God is my Judge and not an enemy of His!
Praise God!
Jesus Christ is LORD.

TJ| 1.10.11 @ 12:01AM

Margie, here is some other info that you may want to read,,,,,,,,,,

http://momentin.com/revstudy/chapter17.htm

The whole site is a must read.

Look to the statue of Peter in the Vatican,,,he has the crown of Baal on his head. Look to the Pope robe,,,it has the sun god Nimrod on it. If you look at the Catholic "bread" you will also see Nimrod. The Pope's hat is a fish,,symbol of pagan fertility,,,also the staff with the cross is pagan. If people who actually research they will learn the truth. The statues depicting Mary and Jesus are actually the wife of Nimrod and her child.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 11:56AM

TJ,

I wouldn't be surprised at that as they make up their own myths. All one has to do is read the Bible and put it beside the doctrines they teach.

There are hundreds of them.
Just typing in false doctrines of the catholic church in google will show it to anyone. And yes I know that God judges the heart, but if you are seeking His Truth, you will want to know, and not be led astray.
It's up to each individual to do so.. or not.
In this perverted world today, so many actually openly say that they don't need the Bible, and that they are willing to listen to the teachings of men instead.
They just don't care, and they will curse those who do, and try to warn others.
Millions upon millions are being deceived, and they are sincere, but sincerely wrong.
Christians preach the gospel of Jesus Christ. And that does NOT include the false doctrines of the Catholic church. Or of ANY other denomination.

RCV | 1.8.11 @ 4:20PM

Beware: the cited "history of the Catholic church" Margie cites is by the anti-Catholic fundamentalist Dale Robbins. I wouldn't trust anything he has to say about the Catholic Church. Do your own objective research.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 4:32PM

But one thing Margie is definitely right about is this: Tim*, who now posts under the name Clint, is a vicious anti-semite, and someone who, as you can see, substitutes truly childish name-calling for reasoned debate.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 4:36PM

RCV is our resident Leftist lawyer and liar. According to Old Tex (Ken) he reported him to Homeland security on a false charge.. he lies and is probably a paid Soros Troll.
He proclaims his loyalty to Obama.

Yes, if anyone wants to know the history of the Catholic church just use Google. It is the friend of the Christian. So far, Obama the Marxist President hasn't banned it.
Perhaps AmSpec will ban me again for posting the historical truth as well.
So be it.
Jesus Christ is LORD.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 5:32PM

Margie has no compunction about bearing false witness. I have never reported anyone to Homeland Security. That is a blatant lie. I'd never heard of George Soros until I read TAS, but I'd be happy if he would send me some of his immense wealth. The Internet is filled with truth and with lies. Do some serious reading from reliable and respected authors. Don't take the word of people with their own little agendas. Think for yourself. That's why God gave you a brain, and reason and intelligence.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 5:57PM

Uh, no, I did not bear false witness. Ken has posted here that you did that, and I am repeating it.. so nice try.
Keep lying and trying to paint me a one.
God will be the Judge, won't He?
And I said probably a paid Soros Troll, because that's how you act.
So it turns out once again who the real obfuscator and slanderer is.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 4:39PM

Christians are anti lies and false doctrine.
It is the false doctrine that we point out and that is what millions of Bible believing Christians were Martyred for by the Catholic church.
I take my stand on God's truth, which is the Bible.
Jesus Christ is LORD!

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 4:41PM

Yes, by all means, do your own research. Purchase a copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs.
Face reality.
Jesus is coming back soon. His Truth endures forever!

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 5:38PM

John Foxe was a propagandist for those conducting campaigns against Catholics in England on behalf of the newly formed Anglican Church. His accounts of the early martyrs of the Church are quite objective. His accounts of the English victims in the war between Henry VIII and the Church were created for propaganda purposes. As an Anglican myself, I'd advise you to read it (and all works) with a sceptical eye.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 5:54PM

Of course you would say that because you despise Bible believing Christians as well as Clint/Tim* does.
There is no end to your obfuscating and outright lying.
You call John Foxe a propagandist as you do conservatives, so no surpise there, just as Clint/Tim* never ceases to minimze and slander me for speaking the truth about his Religion.. which he doesn't even follow.

Just WHO are the real propagandists?

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 10:18PM

I don't "despise bible-believing Christians." I wish you could address issues without personalizing everything and attacking people with venom. Can't you just participate in a civil discussion about something without calling people names?

victor| 1.9.11 @ 2:51AM

RCV:
"John Foxe was a propagandist for those conducting campaigns against Catholics in England on behalf of the newly formed Anglican Church."

From Wikipedia:
"the 2009 Encyclopædia Britannica notes that Foxe's work is "factually detailed and preserves much firsthand material on the English Reformation unobtainable elsewhere."

"Roman Catholics consider Foxe a significant source of English anti-Catholicism, charging among other objections to the work, that the treatment of martyrdoms under Mary I ignores contemporary mingling of political and religious motives"

As an Anglican, you should be pleased that the excesses and persecutions of the Catholic Church before Henry and after Henry, was brought to light, eh?

The Catholic Church has a long and infamous history of dealing with dissenters and "heretics".

"The Medieval Inquisition is a series of Inquisitions (Catholic Church bodies charged with suppressing heresy) from around 1184, including the Episcopal Inquisition (1184-1230s) and later the Papal Inquisition (1230s). It was in response to large popular movements throughout Europe considered apostate or heretical to Christianity."

"The Tribunal of the Holy Office of the Inquisition, commonly known as the Spanish Inquisition, was a tribunal established in 1478 by Catholic Monarchs Ferdinand II of Aragon and Isabella I of Castile. It was intended to maintain Catholic orthodoxy in their kingdoms, and to replace the Medieval Inquisition which was under Papal control. "

"On July 21, 1542, Pope Paul III, with the Constitution Licet ab initio, established the Supreme Sacred Congregation of the Roman and Universal Inquisition, staffed by cardinals and other officials whose task it was "to maintain and defend the integrity of the faith and to examine and proscribe errors and false doctrines". It served as the final court of appeal in trials of heresy and served as an important part of the Counter-Reformation."

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 3:09AM

Of course it has a long and shameful history of dealing with heretics. All religious groups who are absolutely convinced that they, and only they, have the truth, and that other people's doctrines are therefore false and evil and displeasing to God, try to stamp out what they see as heresy in others. The Catholic Church has a long list of such attacks on what they saw as false doctrine. The Inquisition was shameful and horrible. The persecution and killing of Protestants by the English Church before Henry wanted his divorce was shameful, as was the terrible persecution and martyrdom of English Catholics after the Reformation, and the slaughter of Irish Catholics under Cromwell; so too was the burning of heretics at the stake by the New England Puritans. And the killing of Copts by Muslim Egyptians.

One doesn't have to be blind to all that; one should roundly condemn it, and I always have and will.

Instead of rooting out the heresies in other people's attempts to understand and worship the one God, we should focus on our own relationship with the creator, and gather with those who believe as we do and offer common praise to Him. And let others do the same without calumny. Try it.

victor| 1.9.11 @ 3:29AM

RCV:
"so too was the burning of heretics at the stake by the New England Puritans."

Are you still peddling this rotten fish?
Cite your sources.
I proved you wrong the last time and you ran away.
There were some that were hung after a trial and some that were banished.

Stand and deliver!

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 3:59AM

My apologies. The heretics were hung this time, not burned. The "trials" are quite well-known, and about as fair a trial as the Inquisition used to give.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 12:15PM

And just as the Catholics who killed the Bible believing Christians were no Christians (and those who slander us today as well), neither are murderers of those of other faiths Christians.

So quit the hypocrisy game playing.

Anyone who practices following another gospel and calls themselves Christian is lying to themselves, and others.
That is what you do.

victor| 1.9.11 @ 3:13AM

RCV:
"Margie cites is by the anti-Catholic fundamentalist Dale Robbins."

If by "anti-Catholic", you mean that he highlights the distortion of Scripture and non-Biblical practices, what is wrong with that?

If you're an Anglican, why are you so protective of a church that espouses non-Biblical teachings?

What he espouses is what God told Isaiah:

Isaiah 1:11-15:
"What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices? says the LORD; I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed beasts; I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats.
"When you come to appear before me, who requires of you this trampling of my courts?
Bring no more vain offerings; incense is an abomination to me. New moon and sabbath and the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hates; they have become a burden to me, I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread forth your hands, I will hide my eyes from you; even though you make many prayers, I will not listen; your hands are full of blood."

Read Isaiah, you will find out what God thinks of Religion and what he wants from you.

Then read Paul and see what he said about false teachers and false teachings.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 4:05AM

I have read Isaiah and Paul and every other word in the Bible many, many times over. I've also done extensive research, and taken university classes, on the origins of the works that make up the Bible, and read scores and scores of history and commentary on all the books. Much more, I suspect than you have. I really don't need you to lecture me on scripture, its origin or its meaning. I've served several terms as senior warden of my parish, and had the honor and privilege to serve as a Vice-Chancellor to the Bishop of my diocese.

I am quite comfortable with my Church, my faith and my relationship with God, Victor. Get your own house in order before sitting in judgment of others.

victor| 1.10.11 @ 3:00AM

RCV:
"I have read Isaiah and Paul and every other word in the Bible many, many times over"

Reading is one thing, whether you believe them is quite another.

The fact that you are rather proud of your Religion means that you still don't get what God is telling Isaiah; God hates Religion.
Religion is man's way of organizing God.
God is NOT Religion.

"I've served several terms as senior warden of my parish, and had the honor and privilege to serve as a Vice-Chancellor to the Bishop of my diocese."

La-de-da!

Rather proud of your Religion aren't you?

"I am quite comfortable with my Church"

That explains a lot of things, such as, tolerance and acceptance of homosexuality.

Wonder what other Sin your are accepting of?

Are you in favor or against homosexual and womyn clergy?

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 12:11PM

Don't you know that RCV doesn't "agree" with Paul?

He makes himself the authority, yet tells us not to preach the Bible to him!

Hypocrite!

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 12:25PM

You may have been a whatever in your church but I've studied the Bible for more than half my life, and every day.. I immerse myself in it.
What I know is God's Truth which is in His Son.
I know liars when they speak.
and so, you could say is the ope the ope. He is a liar as well.
He believes in Replacement Theology.
Among other myriads of false doctrine.
I take my stand on the Bible, you can take yours on the lies you choose to.
You won't shut up, neither will I.
Till they boot me for it. And then along with me, my husband, as we have the same e mail.
I don't take various screen names like some do here to harass and intimidate but have been repeatedly lied about, had posts in my name.. et al I've said it before, but it doesn't matter because AmSpec is a haven for Catholics and anti-semites alike. Speak the truth to them according to the Bible and you are rejected, but that's fine. It isn't really me you reject, it's Christ.
At least I know I've done the right thing, according to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Bob| 1.18.11 @ 7:17PM

Clint...don't know you or Margie but when you start calling her insulting names, YOU LOOSE.
I enjoyed the debate till you lost it and started calling her vulgar names.
You need to appologize...if you are the man you think you are.

MikeD| 1.7.11 @ 1:29PM

I've learned more about the Bible since I passed the age of 50 as a Missouri Synod Lutheran than I knew the first 40 years of my life as a Roman Catholic. What has bothered me most about the Catholic Church is their near complete abandonment of what they are supposed to stand for. They continue to fund and charter both Notre Dame and Ceorgetown as Catholic Universities while both institutions have become bastions of political correctness including all the 'usual culprits' like multicuralism, diversity, homosexual rights and marriage, and, most distrubing of all, a tolerance of abortion and paying speakers who advocate it. The Church had a chance to stand up for their doctrine but failed the "Gut Check" miserably when they welcomed barry the baby killer muslim to speak to their graduating class. Hypocricy anyone?

Jari| 1.8.11 @ 10:28AM

in the 1960s the Second Vatican Council changed the rules to allow more "anything goes".

Now that things have veered too far out, the new Pope is trying to reign things back in.

Whether you're Catholic or not, you might want to pray for his success, because we don't need feminist religious sisters practicing witchcraft rituals in the name of the Church or hospitals doing abortions.

Joe| 1.7.11 @ 1:06PM

I have seriously thought about this, and for my part, I think the Catholic church does not. The church is crystal clear and consistent about what is, and is not, acceptable to God. The traditional beliefs are not politically correct, progressive, or easy. They are a massive challenge for some, and therefore the natural target of dissenters.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 3:04PM

In His encounter with Satan, our Lord fought by citing the Word. Throughout the Bible, OT and NT, we are commanded to know and obey His law and ignorance thereof leads inexorably to destruction. Peter calls on us to be a "nation of priests" (1 Pet 2:8-9). Peter says he does not preach "cleverly devised myths" (2 Pet 1:16) and warns us about false prophets who will bring in false heresies and exploit you with false words (2 Pet 2:1-3). How can you spot false teachings if you do not know Scripture? Well, you trust in the fine gentlemen with the robes & ceremonies instead of the Bible. You say that Rome is "crystal clear and consistent" but its teachings are so voluminous that no one can track them, while the people in the pews are comforted that their ignorance is OK as long as they partake of the Host and offer some prayers to Mary. Rome claims that the supposed site of Peter's death magically grants it unassailable authority, and that we should believe this because Rome says it (nice tautology there). Yet in its devotion to myths and indifference, if not hostility, toward having people know Scripture, it outright opposes the writings that we do have from Peter (and others that curiously do not mention his establishment of the papacy, and we instead see James in charge of the early church, etc.). Finally, while what you call "the church" is not PC it certainly has acted hand-in-glove with Marxism, anti-capital punishment , pro-illegal invasion (oops, I meant "amnesty"), just about everything in the Dem party platform. In fact, the only issue that it consistently has been non-PC about is abortion. Regarding homosexuality, I suspect activists continue to work hard to bring Rome around because they know that there are so many homosexuals in the ranks of its priesthood. But never mind all that, carry on.

darcy| 1.8.11 @ 3:47AM

Melvin:
The church went astray over 200 years ago when Biblical scholars began using higher criticism to study the Bible; the first concerted effort to adopt higher criticism began in Tubingen, Germany.

Take a look, if you're inclined, at the Wikipedia entry: Higher Criticism, for an overview.

In my estimation, the decline of Orthodoxy in the now-labeled Mainline Churches began with higher criticism when scholars elevated their own reason over God's Word; this filtered throughout Christendom, eventually leaving the church susceptible to the false teaching of the social gospel and the social justice goals now prevalent in our liberal (theologically) churches.

There still remain, thanks be to God, many pockets of Orthodoxy in America. But one must pray for discernment in seeking these out.

Vic| 1.8.11 @ 8:37AM

...the enemy came along behind and sowed tares.

Eric Rasmusen| 1.7.11 @ 8:32AM

Think of this just in terms of money. The socialists have pursued a clever strategy. Take over a rich nonprofit intended for one purpose (religion) and use the assets for another purpose (politics). It would surely be profitable to take, say, 20 million dollars, for someone to take over the organization again, whether for religion again or for, say, spending the assets on birdwatching or publishing poetry.

JimP| 1.7.11 @ 8:47AM

Don't feel alone, Mark. The same thing has been going on and is happening to the Episcopal Church.

Pelligrino| 1.7.11 @ 8:51AM

I was unaware of President Judson Phillips forthright words against the UMC and its perversion of the Gospel of Jesus Christ into wrongheaded social project stupidity. Bravo for him. Glad to have a man in this kind of position speaking truth. More importantly, I hope that those within those wayward congregations would open their Bibles, study them, reflect, and change.

None of us have any excuse to misunderstand the Scriptures. We have Bibles aplenty, concordances, superb Bible commentaries in a bookstore near you, and fantastic preachers on Bible radio like www.bbnradio.org

For the Tea Party conservatism to succeed (and it must if we are to save our country), we will need many, many dedicated Americans of real Christian faith slogging it out.

Thank you for this article, Mr. Tooley.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 11:34AM

Love your comment. Here's another website to read just about any version of the Bible online, I use it every day. BlueLetterBible.org. Also Bible.cc. You can even click on a verse to find a word in the original Greek or Hebrew. The internet while sometimes being a tool of the enemy is also a great tool for the Christian. It reminds me of this verse that says,

"As for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today." Gen. 50:20.
~(The first part of the verse).

Louis Jenkins| 1.7.11 @ 8:56AM

"Gimme that old time religion
Gimme that old time religion
Makes me love everybody
Makes me love everybody
That's good enough for me!"

In the truest sense, not everyone is fit to love. They must first and foremost bow down to Jesus, and ask for forgiveness. Then we can talk about love. If not they will be cast out.

Bruce| 1.7.11 @ 9:16AM

Louis;
The main reason not everyone is fit to love is because they cannot first love themselves.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 11:37AM

"We love, because He first loved us." 1 Jn. 4:19.

JuliaG| 1.7.11 @ 9:23AM

It's not only the UMC that is loosing membership... take a look at the agendas of the UCC, Disciples of Christ, and the rest of the Gang up at the National Council of Churches! The National Staff of all of these "denominations" are too far removed from the local folks... sound familiar?

Boomer Girl| 1.7.11 @ 8:05PM

Remembering Disciples of Christ services from my youth, I recently attended an Easter service in my quest to find a church I am comfortable with. First thing, the pastor walked out carrying a bright red guitar. I wanted to leave right then. There were no flowers on the altar, and no singing of "Christ the Lord is Risen Today" which I consider a requirement for Easter service. There was also an immersion baptism, but in the leadup to that, there was a bit of kidding around, and it didn't seem solemn. I am at wit's end trying to find a church. I can't abide the ECLA or UCC or Methodists anymore.

What I want is the old hymns (not guitars) and NOT simplistic songs written for today and the words projected on screens. I want the pastor to wear a robe, I want an organ and a choir. I want the doxology and a benediction. I want a solemn holy communion ceremony. No politics whatsoever, or a hint of political correctness or social justice. Is this possible to find?

darcy| 1.8.11 @ 4:01AM

What town are you in, Boomer Girl? Depending on where you're at, I could recommend a church for you.

I walked into a church in 1992, when I was on a church hunt, after having visited lots of churches, and for the first time in a long while (since prior to living in that town) I heard about sin, death, hell, forgiveness in Christ, peace with God, and eternal life in heaven. Robe: Yes; hymnals: yes; no guitars and no instruments besides the organ/piano. Great preaching with no political under-or-overtones; and sister churches in all 50 states.

Let me know.

JannaM| 1.7.11 @ 9:46AM

What a relief that people are finally beginning to become aware of this and talk about it openly. My husband and I are struggling to remain in the United Methodist church where we are members. We were first stunned by their support of the healthcare bill (there were many reforms we would have wholeheartedly supported, but definitely not that bill) and have since been appalled by some of their other "social" stances. Its an awful feeling to feel like you must in good conscience stop supporting your local church and begin tithing elsewhere. We don't know how much longer we'll be able to stay in the U.M. church, but this sentence is undeniably true: "Although uninformed, and mostly unsupportive when informed, local church members still fund and are ultimately responsible for the political lobbying waged by their denominations."

Pelligrino| 1.7.11 @ 11:03AM

Janna, if I may, just do it; break away. Leave. Just walk away.

You've most likely stunted your growth as Jesus' disciple there.

Your tithing is being perverted.

Your name and number as a congregant is being misused.

Ask the Lord, I believe He will lead you to a Church family that holds the Bible, the Gospel, and our real calling to do the Great Commisson as the focus.

Perversions of the Church were already occuring in the stories we learn in the Book of Acts. Paul warned against such false doctrine. He would say the same today.

Melvin| 1.7.11 @ 11:54AM

If I may be so bold, this wouldn't be the same Janna from Oregon is it?
Reason I ask is I have a niece name Janna.

TxPastor| 1.10.11 @ 11:38PM

Janna,
Don't give up on the United Methodist Church as Pelligrino suggests. If you believe Christ is using you, are you being misused? You may need to look for a UMC with more traditional, Wesleyan views. Look to Good News Magazine and the Confessing Movement. Conservative Methodists are out there (more so in the south and central U.S.). Admittadly some of our apportionments do go to left wing agencies in the church, but I am praying, hoping and voting for a change in our general structure that will remove automatic funds from our apportionments to these agencies. Hopefully this will begin in the 2012 General Conference. I believe that if something doesn't give within the UMC soon there will be a split. I believe in the Bible and identify with John Wesley's interpretation and implementation of its message. As a whole the UMC has lost its way, but there are many striving to bring it back.

crooked wren| 1.7.11 @ 10:00AM

Grew up in the Methodist Church. Was pretty devoted. Left the Church at the beginning of my adult years, ostensibly because I wasn't "feeling fed." Threw "baby out with bath water."

Tried a little Eastern stuff. Touched on a little mystical Native American stuff. Studied for a time with the Mormons. Got a little lost in mysticism and "occult-light." Knew that the darkness of unbelief and spiritualism was unending and horrifying.

By the time I was in my mid-30s, I had a call to return to Church, but couldn't find my way back to one that fit until I was 40. Walked one Wednesday morning into a little Episcopal Chapel with about four other people, including the priest and his wife -- who sat beside me and helped me get through the service using the Book of Common Prayer.

The words of the liturgy were like the arms of Jesus folding round my weary soul. The Eucharist had no politics. Nor did the service (my Methodist upbringing still impacts my lingo) rely on a firebrand of a preacher, nor did it diminish without that firebrand,
and I vowed never to leave a Church that had such a celebration.

Later I would travel over an hour to celebrate the Eucharist at the little church in Clarksville, GA where two amazing priests -- Barbara Brown Taylor and her interim -- presided over the chalice.

But circumstances put me back into the choir loft at a Methodist Church. The man in the pulpit had the heart of a true child of God. I missed the Eucharist and the liturgy, but I loved the hymns, especially the old Cokesbury ones. And our dear pastor Eddie was truly a pastor -- and a man that was filled with the love of Christ. Truly. Truly.

Now I'm back at an Episcopal Church, but am so conflicted. My husband read Barbara Brown Taylor's last book, but from his description, I hadn't the heart to pick it up. What I heard from him as he read it reminded me too much of the last homily I heard from the pulpit at St. John the Divine -- where Jesus was mentioned more as a metaphor than anything. I was horrified.

The Episcopal Church of America -- and the United Methodist Church -- and even the Catholic Church -- have been infiltrated by the Marxists. Liberation Theology and the Social Justice crowd have made their way through Christianity, although not all ministers and congregations have been equally tainted.

Whittaker Chambers, the ex-Communist who testified against Alger Hiss and others, the author of the must-read book "Witness," KNEW that the battle of our time would be the battle between those who truly loved God and liberty and those who were -- knowingly or not -- aligned with Lucifer: the followers of Marx and his ilk. The Communists (aka Socialists, Marxists, Progressives, the Leftists, etc.) -- the true ones -- are sacrificially committed, in a way that involves their entire souls, to the establishment of a global Communist regime. Chambers also recognized that it would take an equally-committed, equally-sacrificial devotion to liberty and the Constitutional Republic to defeat these totalitarian ideologues.

I believe that much of what Islam is doing today is due to an infiltration by Marxists into that religion as well.

Ryan| 1.7.11 @ 10:07AM

Looking at your preferences, I wonder if you wouldn't find a home in either a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church or a Presbyterian - PCA (or one of the other conservative branches).

Morrison| 1.7.11 @ 10:14AM

See the post by Walkthetalk above.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 11:47AM

crookedwren,

You know I always love your posts, and this one was excellent as usual.
Jesus Himself has been with you to show you all of the wrong ways, and though it's taken what appears to be a long time (in human eyes), is in His way of doing it no time at all and His Hand is still guiding you. His truth is in the Bible and inside of others who have His Spirit. A non-denominational church might be of interest to you where they stick to the Bible, are the kind that carry their Bibles with them daily and read them, pray together and look to help each other and the unsaved. They're always in every neighborhood.

Whether you realize it or not, you're already home.. in Christ.
God bless.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 3:09PM

Crooked Wren, My father has bounced around much like you. He also found the Book of Common Prayer inspiring. Yet he was highly resistant to actually studying the Bible. Some people like all the trappings and high-sounding spirituality, yet don't want the Truth straight up. I agree with Ryan, you may find LCMS and PCA provide you with the liturgy and the hymns but also are devoted to the Bible.

darcy| 1.8.11 @ 4:15AM

The Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod (WELS) and the Evangelical Lutheran Synod (ELS) are more consistently orthodox than the LCMS; that is to say, that in each WELS and ELS congregation you will hear the same Biblical message, whereas in the LCMS that is less so.

Pages 323-328 of What's Going on Among Lutherans, by Patsy A. Leppien, examines how the LCMS seminaries (in the 60's and 70's) were affected by professors who fell under the sway of higher criticism, a method of Biblical study that places the student's reason above the clear Word's of God in Scripture. The Liberal profs eventually walked out (seminex: seminary in exile), but the students they had taught remained, and graduated, and later went out to teach and preach.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 3:09PM

Crooked Wren, My father has bounced around much like you. He also found the Book of Common Prayer inspiring. Yet he was highly resistant to actually studying the Bible. Some people like all the trappings and high-sounding spirituality, yet don't want the Truth straight up. I agree with Ryan, you may find LCMS and PCA provide you with the liturgy and the hymns but also are devoted to the Bible.

Richard Baker| 1.7.11 @ 10:40AM

As to the Methodist church, John Wesley weeps.

MikeD| 1.7.11 @ 1:35PM

One thing to remember. Religion, denominations, congegrations, and churches are just works of humans with their own objectives. Jesus taught; and Paul wrote, of small groups of believers gathering in individual homes for worship and discussion of the Bible, although the Bible wasn't written down untill well after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection. Also remember that the verses included in the Bible were voted on at various meetings and conventions many more years later. This is another sign of possible disconnects between faith and religion.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 3:12PM

MikeD, Nice assertion, that "the verses included in the Bible were voted on." Most assuredly, with all the atheistic and agnostic web sites out there, you could provide a link so we can validate this "one thing" with something substantive. And yes, I understand the church councils, etc. regarding heresies but you're asserting that the actual words of the Bible were edited.

TxPastor| 1.10.11 @ 11:57PM

Quote from John Wesley:
"I am not afraid that the people called Methodists should ever cease to exist either in Europe or America. But I am afraid lest they should only exist as a dead sect, having the form of religion without the power. And this undoubtedly will be the case unless they hold fast both the doctrine, spirit, and discipline with which they first set out."

His fear is coming to pass unless we can regain what made the people called methodists a force in the revival in Europe and America.

Jane| 1.7.11 @ 11:10AM

I have read the above comments in response to Mark Tooley's article. Your hard hearted and disobedient words sadden me. The United Methodist Church belongs to God. Get your sorry butts back in there and take it back from the greedy and darkened forces which have straddled it for their own vision. The gates of hell will not prevail against Christ's Church. It is a lifelong battle.

Mike| 1.7.11 @ 11:45AM

Hear, hear. Speak with clarity, act with charity, but always stand for the Truth. I love my own particular Methodist Church. However, the national UMC is not really Christian. My tithe goes only to local causes.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 11:49AM

Christ's church is the body of believers throughout the earth and it matters not the denomination.

Pope Testiculus I| 1.7.11 @ 12:32PM

Try telling that to a Catholic!

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 12:35PM

I have, for the past 40 years and counting.

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 1:41PM

We Catholics don't need your Ax to Grind Bullcrap Advice.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 3:13PM

Clint, You're right, you don't need anyone's advice. You have Rome to tell you what to do to earn your way to heaven.

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 4:45PM

Nobody has a gun to Our Catholic Heads.We Can Stay or Walk,whenever We think Your Church has something better to offer Us.

Got it Evanston2 Bits

Get It !

Evanston2| 1.8.11 @ 12:17AM

Clint, Thanks for the laugh.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 2:36AM

You're The Laugh Evanston 2 Bits.

Evanston2| 1.8.11 @ 12:25PM

Clint, Thank you. : )

midwestnorwegian| 1.7.11 @ 11:12AM

Identical to what has happened to the Episcopagan "church". Left it about 7 years ago after they gave Gene-Gene "The Sodomy Machine" Robinson a pointy hat. The ELCA Lutherans are just a few years behind.

If you do not think Satan is alive, well, and active in today's world you only need to look to how effective he has been at taking down western mainline protestant churches.

midwestnorwegian| 1.7.11 @ 11:16AM

BTW - this past week a couple of lesbian priestesses were "married" in the cathedral in Boston by the bishop of that Episcopagan diocese The Rt. Rev. Thomas Shaw.

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/1/prweb8041704.htm

Rogue Elephant| 1.7.11 @ 11:25AM

I left the UMC several years ago because I did not want to raise my children in a church whose leadership is attempting to rewrite the Bible (just as the left as rewritten the Constitution), abandoning traditional teaching and replacing it with a syncretic blend of multiculturalism, relativism, and leftist ideology.

Richard Baker| 1.7.11 @ 11:47AM

Jane:
Unfortunately, the battle is lost. UMC is no longer a church doing God's will but one where the inmates run the asylum in favor of the secular. Shake off the dust from your sandals as you leave. Wesley weeps.

Jane| 1.7.11 @ 12:56PM

No, my dear friend. If you heart is as my heart, then give me your hand. You cannot see the future. I see the Church victorious and I am part of that victory. It may take a lifetime, but I will not abandon my fellows in the greater and international body which subscribes to Wesleyan teaching and biblical interpretation in perfect love.

TxPastor| 1.11.11 @ 12:14AM

Thanks for the post Jane. The battle is NOT lost, we must persevere until hope is gone. But I do see Wesley's fear that we could become a dead sect. As long as I have hope for the restoration of the UMC I will remain in it and preach the Gospel. And if necessary support a split from those trying to lead us astray.

Rogue E. and Richard regardless of your church home there is a danger for Satan to bring false doctrine. It is a battle we must be vigalent in. So don't be over confident that you are safe.

JohnCon| 1.7.11 @ 11:51AM

The Church is an organism that is quite ethereal. 'church' was never meant to become an event or organization. It is "a gathering" of like-minded individuals. This is the Biblical literal meaning of the Greek word 'eclesia'. With all due respect to modern institutionalists, Christ does not need your money or your organization. Not that religious institutions are forbidden by the scripture, they are not necessary for Y'Shua to accomplish bringing mankind into a proper relationship with YHWH.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 12:34PM

Well said and it is the Biblical truth.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 3:31PM

JohnCon, Agreed. If folks bothered to do a NT study of passages with the word "church" they would find that it always refers to people -- not a building, nor an institution. Yet they find 'Salvation by Denomination' to be easier: just get the right membership card, that's the ticket! Don't learn what the Bible actually teaches about Christianity, instead have good attendance, partake of communion (or "the host"), throw in some money and you're good to go! The OT as well showed how God called people as He wills. Many of Abraham's descendants (starting with Ishmael, but including Moabites, Edomites, were corporately rejected). Israel is a good example of how even the "chosen people" thought they were saved by their genes, yet our Lord rejected this (John 8:39, tho John 7&8 provide context). Those who trust in church membership for salvation should shudder.

bellicus_pium| 1.7.11 @ 12:28PM

You can be a Methodist and still practice the teachings of Jesus irrespective of dogma.

Richard Baker| 1.7.11 @ 12:44PM

bellicus_pium
You seem to be saying the being within such a church doesn't sanction said church's activities? Why not then attend an Aryan Christian Church?

Mojo Risin| 1.7.11 @ 2:13PM

I occasionally attended the Methodist Church that my next door neighbors attended, ages approx. 8-14. Didn't have much invested, while witnessing my neighbors, 3 brothers/classmates pilfer the tithe, I contributed for effect. This act allowed us to buy candy at the boulevard RX on the way home. Now this isn't all I remember about the local Methodist church in North Sacramento.

There was also a documentary film that blistered my memory. It was a film about the threat of communist domination and the succession (illustrated in a wave of red) of nations that were predicted to fall in that line of dominoes. This film was shown in that church, more that once and this is the clincher, at my elementary school also. And mind-you it has had a lasting effect, it scared me subliminally conservative.

This could never happen today, the leftist clergy and unions would not sanction it, although left-wing indoctrination is most acceptable...

I can imagine in today's environment equal time would have to be given to beheadings and their benefits and subsequently recant all criticism of radical Islam, with tithing to begin at morning prayers...

Perusha| 1.7.11 @ 2:24PM

"We love, because He first loved us." 1 Jn. 4:19.

Thanks for the quote, Margie.

I came from a mostly a-religious family, with a grandmother who was probably your doppelganger, as far as Jesus goes.

On Sundays, my dad would give the three of us kids a quarter to drop in the offering receptacle, at our Methodist church. By my teens, when I started to think for myself, such a Sunday morning ritual more and more cramped my “understanding” style, and I was out of there before beginning college.

I used my noggin, by wondering who I was, and how “lucky” I was to have been born into my own particular circumstances.

Just think!

I was not only in the best country, the USA, but the best state, Oregon, the best city, Portland, and in a perfect 1950’s Ozzie and Harriet part of that city!

And, I was as smart as anybody in school!

We kids lived on a one block long street, with around 20 of us to play every game after school---what a grace!

But, I wondered, wrt believing in any particular religion---what if I’d been born in China, or Africa?

Why, I’d surely believe in the societal “religion” that was commonly accepted, THERE, so why should I believe I was so special, and especially, why should I believe Christianity of a Methodist flavor was “THE ONE”?

I soon enough became an agnostic---forced to acknowledge that I did not KNOW the answer about God. How could I, a newly inexperienced human choose?

Why should I HAVE to do this?

Also, hard core atheists are just as much believers as the many people who choose to believe in their own particular defined religion.

And, for Margie, and any other still-believing Christians, there is one more memory from my own youth, granted from the overbearing attempt by my grandma to convince me to follow her into her church-loving belief system---besides the many happy nights when I was old enough to actually go out on Christmas season nights and sing Christmas carols!---

“Jesus loves me, yes I know, for the bible tells me so.”

There it is---the essence of contemporary Christianity, eh?

Jesus, the son of God, loves---ME!

Well, since we all want to BE LOVED, just as we all would love to get a blissful massage every day (excuse the physical analogy!), why, it’s a wonder everybody doesn’t happily join such a church.

However, real religion is not about YOU, as a “me”, or in the best caricature possible, as Narcissus, receiving love.

It’s about BEING love!

I know, I know---Margie and all her true believer types, THINK they are about bringing love to all the lost souls, such as me.

But, my experience, study, and understanding of the way the human world actually works, tells me that at the core, such people are in it for---ME!

What else could a Savior DO, except---SAVE?

I will save “you” further blasphemy.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 4:52PM

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many." Mt. 7:13.

Which is harder~ to be under the yoke of Sin, or to take the yoke of Christ?

I submit to you that it's much easier to take Christ's yoke upon yourself. We are all under Sin apart from the Grace and mercy of God. Sin takes us to Hell. Jesus takes us to Heaven.. if we choose Him. It isn't about Religion, or having to "be Religious". The Bible tells us how to come to know God while Religion has its own ideas.. look how many there are of them and they cannot agree.

It seems to me that you've never really known Jesus personally.. or rather come to be known by Him. Wouldn't you want to be?
Forget Religion.
Think about the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Read the New Testament.. "taste and see that the Lord is good". Ps. 34:8.

There are plenty of simple, Bible believing Christian fellowships all over the country who would gladly welcome you.. not to try and BE something.. but to let yourself be known by Him, together.

It's simply called, prayer and fellowship and studying the Bible.
Then you are so glad that you will want to share Him with others.

"Take My yoke upon you, and learn from me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." Mt. 11:29.

This world is a very hard place. Jesus gives our souls respite through His Holy Spirit, and each other.

Perusha| 1.8.11 @ 12:38AM

Grandma, is that you?

Have you come back as Margie?

Grandma| 1.8.11 @ 11:39AM

No My Little Perusha, Margie's Still Down On Earth In The New Jersey Institute For The Criminally Insane.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 11:52AM

See Perusha? The love of Christ that dwelt in your Grandma.. I just wanted to let you see that in dwells in me too. And in Christians the world over.

No, your Grandma didn't "come back: because it isn't possible as the Bible says that we only die once.. and then comes judgment.

But if you give your heart to Him too, then you will know what me and your Grandma both knew.. His love which surpasses all understanding!

I can tell that you thirst for love and understanding. And as I mentioned to you in another thread here, so was I. I think I was very much like you. I used to thirst so desperately for the truth and meaning and purpose in life. So I'd read book after book. I figured if all these "heavy" as I used to say, big name poets were considered so grand by the world, maybe they had the answers.. but they didn't.

This all happened to me in my youth. Some of us it takes a lifetime.. that God has to teach us that it is all meaningless without Him. But it isn't just without Him.. it's without Christ specifically, because He's the Mediator between us and God.

It really IS about a relationship.. and not a Religion.

Whatever Religion is in your mind, forget it, and think about the person of Jesus Christ. What He says and thinks and wants is written in the Bible.

Are you aware of the fact that if you do have even a speck of faith by just reading God's words in the Bible causes it to grow?

It is like a miracle and it happened to me.

The Devil, God's Enemy, doesn't want anyone to read the Bible. Those who are his servants scream and curse at me for proclaiming that Religion is not what God wants.. but God's words and will are contained in the Bible itself.

The Enemy of God hates the Bible.

Make sure you aren't swept away by all sorts of false teachings that are in this fallen world. God really does love you.. He IS love.

Christians really do love you, too.
I wanted you to know that.

Bevo| 1.7.11 @ 3:04PM

The mistake people make is equating the positioons of certain agencies within United Methodism as the official position of the United Methodist church. It is not! ONLY General Conference speaks for all of United Methodism, and in recent gatherings, General Conference has spoken most conservatively. Our church's Book of Discipline remains faithful to the orthodox faith. For Methodists reading this post, I would suggest educating yourselves on our church's doctrine (Articles of Religion and Confession of Faith), supporting evangelical movements within United Methodism (The Confessing Movement, IRD and Good News) and reading Methodist scholar William Abraham's book, "Waking From Doctrinal Amnesia." I belong to a 3,000 member Methodist church that incorporates a praise band, multi-media and very contemporary means of worship, holds to the authority of Scripture, has Bible studies out the whazoo, whose pastor is on the board of the IRD, is multi-racial, who allows for baptisms by full immersion if requested, is evangelical and not charis-phoebic.

ColleenO| 1.7.11 @ 3:16PM

I'm catholic and have been very disillusioned. I found out during the 2008 race, the church's Campaign for Human Development and Bishops Fund doesn't go to organizations that provide services to the poor, it goes to political groups that "advocate" for the poor and SOCIAL Justice. Acorn groups had received over $9 million. These pro-democrat groups helped elect pro-abortion extremest and even candidates that are on the record for promoting infanticide-Like Obama while in Ill. Senate. The Bishops also promoted the passage of Obamacare and the DREAM Act. Basically the US Catholic church is spending millions of dollars of members money to lobby for the government to take their members money under threat of jail and/or confiscation of property, so the government can then choose how to distribute the wealth. In the emails and articles from the Bishops they say that they are for the government giving free healthcare and amnesty because it's the Catholic teachings from Jesus. If that is true, I challenge any Bishop to name ONE Saint that was canonized because they FORCED others to do charitable acts by threats of jailing them or confiscation of property. When someone can supply me with such a saint, then I will consider donating to the Church again.

somnolence| 1.7.11 @ 3:25PM

The only folks going to the Kingdom Of Heaven are the souls who truly believe in their heart they're going there. And you don't have to step into any church or belong to any denomination to be secure in that thought, praise God.

Evanston2| 1.7.11 @ 3:41PM

somnolence, Would you please provide a Bible citation for your statement regarding those "who truly believe in their heart?" Indeed, we are commanded to "Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith" (2 Cor 13:5). And what is 'the faith?' Well, that would be what we are told in the Bible, otherwise you are just making up your own rules and may be surprised at the Judgement. Matt 7:22-23 applies. It is whether He knows us that determines our salvation, not our own personal confidence.

somnolence| 1.7.11 @ 3:26PM

The only folks going to the Kingdom Of Heaven are the souls who truly believe in their heart they're going there. And you don't have to step into any church or belong to any denomination to be secure in that thought, praise God.

mames| 1.7.11 @ 4:13PM

I always thought "W"'s methodism influenced his "compassionate' conservatism. Like the church he attends he is adept as using labels to mislead people. Formal Methodist doctrine is as far from biblical Christianity as "W" is from conservatism.

Bevo| 1.7.11 @ 6:03PM

"Formal Methodist doctrine is as far from biblical Christianity..."

Wrong. Formal Methodist doctrine holds Scripture as the absolute authority on its teachings. Again, this is affirmed in our church's doctrine (Articles of Religion and Confession of Faith). Consider Wesley's words, "Yea, I am a Bible bigot. If any word of Scripture not be true, then the whole is not true." (I'm paraphrasing).

Shoey| 1.7.11 @ 4:43PM

the only churches left for conservatives are local independent churches, all of the major denominations have been infiltrated and melded into the Progressive fold.

the fact that the rank and file members don't understand this only points out their own individual laziness and carelessness. If the Churches want to live, they have to go back to their roots and they have to speak out so people know they have gone back to the basics.

and stop obessing about young people, there are lot's of people in the world who are NOT between the ages of 12 - 25, how about a church service for us?

TxPastor| 1.11.11 @ 12:26AM

How about a church service for Jesus Christ!
Worship is about Christ, not the occupants of the pew. I have attended traditional to contemporary worship services and it doesn't matter the style if the congregation is worshiping Christ in spirit and in truth you WILL know it.
Churches need to focus more on worshiping Jesus and not so much on the focus group. Admittedly it does help to connect with a style you are comfortable with but God's Spirit can be present regardless of the style of worship.

Dave| 1.7.11 @ 5:06PM

Born and raised in the Evangelical United Brethren tradition, I have always described myself as a "Methodist by absorption." I wandered away for a while but returned to the fold in later years.

I belong to a very small congregation, about 40 active members, which is less than half the size it was a mere seven years ago. That the UMC is shrinking is no surprise, I've seen it with my own eyes.

However, I do not think this is a result of the liberalism of the UMC leadership. For the most part, fellow worshipers are unaware of the left-wing stance taken by the National Conference - and for the most part, don't care. Rather, we are a community of friends and believers concerned with our own personal salvation first, and yours second.

Forking out money to the Church to support a left-wing agenda is no different than union dues, AARP membership fees, or for that matter, taxation in general. And like taxation, it is unavoidable. No matter the denomination, you will end up paying for national people to express viewpoints which you do not agree with. That is the way of any organization of more than one member.

The core of the UMC's problem is not the liberal bent of the national Conference, rather it is the liberalization of teaching from the pulpit. "Open minds, open hearts," has slowly morphed into the religion of no rules.

Don't believe in the Virgin Birth - that's O.K., you can still be a Methodist. Don't believe in Christ's divinity - that's O.K., you can still be a Methodist. Only willing to accept that part of the Bible that suits your world-view/lifestyle - that's O.K, the Methodist Church is for you. Want to ignore clear and plainly worded teachings to embrace deviancy - that's O.K., you fit right in to Methodist teachings and theology.

Years ago the preachers proclaimed "The Bible is the only perfect rule for faith, morals and conduct." Today, Methodism has become infested with moral relativism - whatever belief system you have come up with on your own is apparently fine and dandy and fits right in.

When you attempt to support everything, you end up supporting nothing.

People are leaving the Methodist Church because there's no there there. Sadly, leadership doesn't seem to get it and so the exodus will likely continue.

I remain in my local congregation, not because of inspiring worship, nor because of denominational doctrine, I stay put because my friends are staying put. To paraphrase Ruth, whither they go, there shall I also go. These friends, these good Christians are more important to me than the idiocy evident in the National leadership.

Bevo| 1.7.11 @ 5:58PM

This is why I encurage you and others to read and study the Methodist doctrine (Articles oof Relgion and Confession of Faith), and yes, we do have a doctrine that clearly spells out our beliefs. A person may be a Methodist and deny, for example, the virgin birth, but by holding to such a position they are in clear conflict with our church's teachings and Doctrine.

Dave| 1.7.11 @ 7:15PM

I know that. When I chaired the Trustees (2 1/2 years, BTW) I was encouraged to read it, or at least that part that pertained to my functions. I looked through the whole thing.

Be that as it may, that is NOT what is emanating from the pulpit.

(Perhaps this is just my local problem, I dunno. But from reading the commentary here, I suspect this is a much more wide spread phenominon.)

TxPastor| 1.11.11 @ 12:41AM

Bevo,
Yes, this is part of the problem. Believe what you want in the UMC (even if it opposes our doctrine) pastors and bishops included. Wesley would NOT have this. He removed pastors from methodist pulpits if the parted from his doctrine - PERIOD! And laity were not allowed in the societies if they did not practice their beliefs. The UMC no longer hold anyone accountable for their beliefs or practices. We accept anything and as such are considered the "University of Phoenix" of churches. A FAR cry from what Wesley established the people called methodist to be.

Dave, I am not perfect, but you will find I stive to bring Biblical teaching and Wesleyan doctrine from the pulpit when I preach from it.

Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 5:26PM

Hoookay!
First of all, I want to thank each of you for your professions of faith. Second, I want to thank you all for your best thoughts here.
Third, I and The Lord, forgive you for any mistakes, double-thinks, or penny-ante quibbling.

NOW, I'm going to preach a sermon.

Somehow or other, the Lord God of the Universe gave us His only begotten Son, who was with Him in the beginning.
Somehow or other, our Creator "condensed" ? Himself into time and space in the person of Jesus of Nazereth.

Somehow, I am a wretch saved by HIS grace, and God does NOT change His mind.

That tickle of grace in the heart of my mind makes me smile a lot.
I look forward to eternity.
I have two reference texts next to my desk; my Thesaurus, and my Bible. Sometimes I forget the perfect word, and sometimes I forget the applicable scripture.
(Thank you, Margie)
When I partake of Holy communion, (and I grew up calling it "The Lord's Supper") I get to eat the wafer ...and...drink the grape....in remembrance of Him.
Some Romans, don't think Christ's people deserve the "grape".
Aechhh, that is their problem.

The Romans like to forget that they had several Popes running around at the same time claiming "Apostolic succession". That is their problem...but it is not a problem at all.

They each were "wretches' as well; just fallible people praying for grace......or they were stupids cast into outer darkness.
Now, let's talk about basptism for just a second.

Jesus Christ, The Son Of God, was baptized to the best of my recollection.
He was dunked to the best of my recollection.

I can follow Him there.

I place my eternity in God's hands.

I hope and pray that each of you can....in total confidence.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 6:28PM

Ken,

I love your humble posts and as usual this one did not disappoint.

You're right, God never changes His mind.. but can we change ours? It's in His Hands, isn't it.. it seems to me that if one is truly saved then they will endure to the end anyway. I get that. But then you look at Judas and think, was he ever really saved? Doesn't it say he was one of the "chosen?"

All of this is truly both fearful and wonderful to study.
I can only then trust in God's mercy to save me, because I see no other hope.

God bless.

Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 7:48PM

Margie,
Hey knothead, of course we must trust in God's mercy to save us..."Grace" is the term you are hunting for. Same Same.

...Oh , Judas...well, Jesus had not risen from the dead yet. As I recall, Ole' Peter "Rock" had his problems too before that event....Thomas too.

...As I recall, ole Peter...the so-called first Pope still had problems after the event. Remember the story about the "unclean foods"?

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 9:52PM

Knothead? I don't think so.

And no, I wasn't searching for the word Grace, but mercy is indeed what I meant to say..

I have to trust in His mercy.
His Grace is sufficient and has saved me but I still need His mercy because I'm still a horrible sinner.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 2:40AM

The Phoney Chickenhawk Kenny The Squirrel Shows up to Call We Catholics "Romans."

victor| 1.8.11 @ 3:03AM

ClinTimmy*:
"The Phoney (sic) Chickenhawk Kenny The Squirrel Shows up to Call We (Us) Catholics "Romans."

Aren't you folks called "Roman" Catholics, eh?

And don't that make you boys "Romans"?

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 3:25AM

We Are Not Called "Romans" & You Know It Anti-Catholic Victor-Margie.

Hey Lapsed Catholic with The Big Ax To Grind , Go Over To Your Catholic Ex Policeman Dad And Mom and Call Them Romans to Their Face,You Joisey White Trash Bigot.
Your Old Man Will Stick His Boot Up Your Fat Ass And You'll Have To Hop Together To The Emergency Room To Have It Surgically Removed From Your Fat Ass.

victor| 1.8.11 @ 9:59AM

ClinTimmy*:
"We Are Not Called "Romans"

Is that why the wikipedia page starts out thus:

"The Catholic Church, also known as the ROMAN Catholic Church"

",You Joisey White Trash Bigot.
Your Old Man Will Stick His Boot Up Your Fat Ass "

With language such as this, you too may be a pope one day or at least a cardinal who protects pervert pedophile priests, eh?

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 11:44AM

With Your Fanatic Anti-Catholic Agenda Victor-Margie You may be The Next Joe Stalin.

Shut Your Anti-Catholic Mouth Joisey White Trash Bigot

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:23PM

Freedom of speech for thee but not for me?

Curse all you want, and slander.

American Spectator: Hypocrisy?

You removed my tribute to Ben Stein, yet you allow constant cursing and slandering by this person who posts under many screen names and threatens physical harm as well?

You allow someone to curse me and other Christians for speaking the truth, andt allow anti-semitic Christian haters to post this vileness?

Big Leo| 1.7.11 @ 5:29PM

I'm a retired UMC pastor, a theological conservative, who served pastorates for thirty years in the church. Our moderate conference was absorbed by an ultra Left one. As soon as we lost control, no conservative or moderate pastor had a chance at any but the most marginal appointments, and no moderate or conservatives pastoral candidates were approved for ordination. I watched the leadership slowly pick off conservative pastors for no cause. It was a slow motion purge, and I can name no active conservative pastors in the entire conference.

The UMC has chosen death, and death is what it will have. The decline is accelerating, and gets worse every time they take a new leftist stance. They are doomed to be a tiny and irrelevant cult in the United States while they become a power in the African world.

Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 5:57PM

Leo,
been there done that. Different "denomination".
Last night we had seven people put their feet under our table.
I offered thanks.
Jesus was there.

Big Leo| 1.7.11 @ 5:59PM

And the glory has left the sanctuary and moved on to new territory. Christians will be moving with it. Ebenezer.

Big Leo| 1.7.11 @ 6:05PM

What a typo! I meant Ichabod of course, not Ebenezer. But you already knew that.

Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 7:52PM

Leo,
heh! yep I did.
God's speed, Sir.

Lawrence Cannon| 1.7.11 @ 7:01PM

I left the United Methodist Church after nearly 40 years. While the local churches in Mississippi were Conservative and bible-believing, the church at the national level was using my money for leftist causes. Personally, I believe the main reason the local churches are allowed to be conservative, is because that's the only way to keep the church from going completely under.

I now belong to the Congregational Methodist Church, which still follows the beliefs of John Wesley, but is much more bible-oriented. Now I know that when I tithe my money it'll go towards something good.

For you UMC members who are tired of the leftward shift but want to stay in the Methodist/Wesleyan tradition, there are many different Methodist denominations out there- Congregational Methodist, Methodist Protestant, Wesleyan, Church of God, Independent Methodist, etc.

Lawrence D. Cannon| 1.7.11 @ 7:06PM

Another thing- all this talk about Baptists being "hypocrites". My in-laws are all Baptists, and most of them are the kindest, gentlest people I know, people who truly walk the Walk. They not only trust in the Lord through Bible-study and prayer, they also do things in the community because of their faith.

If you want to see hypocrisy, look in the mirror. We all don't live up to the standards we set for ourselves.

Margie| 1.7.11 @ 7:08PM

Why does AmSpec allow a continual spewing of slander and filth and wishing of me to go to Hell for speaking the truth by this imposter Tim*/Cint, still to this very day?

Now if I call him a liar I am taking a big chance, right?

American Spectator~ GET YOUR HOUSE IN ORDER!!

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 11:48AM

Look At American Spectator's Resident Fanatic Anti-Catholic Hater Victor-Margie CryBabyin' Now.

You Bully Punk Asses Are All Alike.

I'm Gonna Skin The Bark Off Ya Joisey White Trash Anti-Catholic Bigot.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:17PM

Well well, this from the resident filthy mouthed man who lies and curses Christians repeatedly.

Everyone knows you Tim*/Clint, no matter which screen name you happen to use.
You can't hide your spirit, can you?

American Spectator:

IS THIS WHAT YOU CHOOSE TO ALLOW?

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 7:07PM

Yeah, American Spectator Allows Catholics To Skin The Bark Off The Joisey Anti-Catholic White Trash Bigot Victor-Margie-Sybil.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 10:07PM

Yes, birds of a feather.
But God's own vengeance will be swift.. and just.
False Religion trumps God's truth here.
So be it.

victor| 1.10.11 @ 3:05AM

ClinTimmy*:
"I'm Gonna Skin The Bark Off Ya"

Don't ya mean yer gonna bark the skin off ya?

On account of yer bein' a lowdown dirty dog?

In Scripture "dog" is figurative for "homosexuals"

somnolence| 1.7.11 @ 7:46PM

Evanston2, I'll settle with a judgement on my worthiness to the Kingdom as handed down by my Lord, and not by you. I'm quite confident he hears my prayers, and forgives my sins. I really don't have to quote any scripture. Like I say, I won't be so quick to judge you as you've attempted to judge me. There appears to be a lot of judgemental action in these responses as to the Baptists, non-political Methodists, etc. I am very content as to what my Savior has placed within my heart and soul. Let's let it rest there. I do know that several years ago I invited some Jehovahs Witnesses into my residence, and listened to their pitch of recruitment for a couple of hours for two days; and after the banter and discussion, they left in frustration, apparently since they failed to convert me. I'm very secure in my heart and beliefs, praise God.

Evanston2| 1.8.11 @ 12:24AM

Somnolence, Yeah, you're right. Who needs Scripture? Be secure in yourself. All that judging is bad stuff. You're going to heaven. What are you supposedly saved from? Oh yeah, hell. I absolutely have no clue regarding your current spiritual state, nor your ultimate destination, but if you are relying on "faith in faith" instead of specifically knowing the Lord of the Bible, then you may be misled. I could cite God's Word for you but that would be bothersome to you, wouldn't it? Why did God have to bother us with all those words, anyway? Just keep on believing in yourself, that's the ticket!

Ken (Old Texican)| 1.7.11 @ 8:10PM

Margie, Leo, somnolence... all you Christians out there.. rejoice!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgRibR6bgcE

victor| 1.8.11 @ 2:32AM

Clint| 1.7.11 @ 5:27PM

First, tell all the practicing Jews & Muslims where you say they go when they die."

What did Benedict tell King Abdullah about the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ?

Or did he?

King Abdullah:
“I wanted to visit the Vatican, and I did, and I thank him.”

The question to ask is “Why?”

King Abdullah:
“If God wills it, we will then meet with our brothers from other religions … to come up with ways to safeguard humanity.”

Someone should tell Abdullah to read the Bible and especially The Book of Revelation as it will tell him what God’s plan is to save humanity, that is, those that believe in His Son, Jesus Christ.

The pope should be following Matthew 28:16-20 and telling Abdullah God’s plan of salvation and Jesus Christ, but he didn’t as he believes in Replacement Theology, which says that the New Covenant or the Catholic Church, supercedes the Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) and makes the Jews and therefore, Israel, irrelevant.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 5:17PM

Victor: We all know what a jerk Clint/Tim* is. But do you really need to be so offensive to Catholics by constantly attacking Catholic doctrine and the Pope?

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 7:02PM

We all know Pseudo-Intellectual Ass-Clown RCV LawBoy is an ObamaBoy, but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 10:05PM

The Left encompasses both haters of Bible believing Christians, anti-semites and Anarchists.

No surprise there.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 10:26PM

Don't you ever lump me in with anti-semitism. As you well know, I have lashed out at anti-semitism and racism in all forms every time they rear their ugly heads on this site, which is quite often.

If you want to lash out at anti-semitism in its vilest form, look to your hero, Martin Luther.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 1:35PM

I just did lump you in.
It's the truth.
You all share this in common.
You hate the truth as it is written in the Bible, and slander and lie about those who proclaim it.
The shoe fits.

Clint| 1.9.11 @ 11:48AM

You're American Spectator's Serial Slandering Liar Anti-Catholic Fanatic Victor-Margie-Sybil.

Tea Party Catholic Clint & ObamaBoy Anglican RCV LawBoy Just Let You Self-Expose Your Terminal PMS Hatred & Joisey White Trash Bigot Agenda.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 12:07PM

There's what the Bible says, and then there's what the liars say!

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 1:33PM

Another explanation for the vile Clint/Tim*s sociopathic personality is that he's an Anarcho-Capitalist.
Haven't you said so, Timmy*?
Are you a skin-head, too?
He calls Bible believing Christians "White-Trash". and "Pigs".
And like his pope, believes in Replacement Theology.
Which states that the Catholic church replaces Israel, and so making Israel Null & Void!
It explains his anti-semitism and the hurling accusations of "Israel-Firster!" to anyone who even dares mentions Israel favorably.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 11:46AM

...Crickets.

victor| 1.9.11 @ 1:00AM

RCV:
"by constantly attacking Catholic doctrine and the Pope?"

You accuse me of "attacking" catholic doctrine and the pope?
I am simply publishing any and all inconsistencies and distortions of the Bible that the Church teaches.

Does or does not the pope believe in "Replacement Theology"? Yes or no?

This is the "theory" that the church has fulfilled prophesy and is indeed the "new" Israel so that there is no need for the State of Israel.
Salvation therefore comes from Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church.

Pope Benedict XVI – “"Salvation is universal, but it passes through a specific historical mediation: the mediation of the people of Israel, which goes on to become that of Jesus Christ and the Church." (Pope Benedict XVI, Homily, Opening Mass of the Synod on the Middle East, St. Peter's Basilica, Sunday, October 10, 2010)

This will be the first of many such distortions.
I have asked where the Biblical evidence, you as a lawyer know what evidence is, for such things as:
Purgatory,
Celibacy of priests,
Praying to the dead,
The veneration of Mary and praying to her,
Confessing of sin to priests,
the belief that priests can forgive sin.

By asking for Scriptural evidence for these and many more erroneous doctrines, you and Timmy accuse me of the heresy of catholic bashing.

As far as I am concerned, you and Timmy are opposite sides of the same coin.

You are Dr. Jeckyll to Timmy's Mr Hyde.

Or perhaps you are Dorian Gray and Timmy is your "portrait", eh?

You are both deniers of the truth.

You both claim to believe in God, but deny His Truths.

Offensive?

How is proclaiming the truth offensive?

Offensive only to those who deny it.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 12:06PM

I hear crickets chirping..

No, RCV and his like-minded Leftist pal, Clint/Tim* are too bust slandering us and Martin Luther and other Bible based Christians.. that's what they must do. Discredit the messenger. They cannot face DO NOT want to face the truth.
Their false Religion suits them.
It's a great cover.
But then so is ALL Religion.
That's right, Religion is a fig leaf.
The Bible is where God's actually words and will is written.
IF you LOVE HIM, HE says~ you will listen to HIS words.

"I appeal to you, brethren, to take note of those who create dissensions and difficulties, in opposition to the doctrine which you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by fair and flattering words they deceive the hearts of the simple-minded." Rom. 16:17 & 18.

"But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed." Gal. 1:8.

Where is the gospel of Jesus Christ?

It is in the Bible.

somnolence| 1.8.11 @ 2:57AM

Evanston2, I'm a member of the United Methodist Church, which I haven't attended in several years. Aside from the church's radical political leanings(locally, I haven't encountered it all that much), I was turned off one Sunday morning by the good reverend's stance that men would show a proper respect for the Lord if they wore a tie. I believe that outside of the pastor that day, there may have been one gentleman in the pews wearing one. I just don't believe that Jesus singled out fashionable attire as being a prerequisite. Don't get me wrong, I believe in modesty, or conservatism in dress, but the pastor's admonitions seemed out of place. I'll decide when and where to wear a tie, and I'll rely on my wife's approval rather than his. At one time this church had over 100 members. It is now down to about 28.

Evanston2| 1.8.11 @ 12:35PM

somnolence, Are you saying that the pastor used the Bible to justify his argument? Or are you saying that he/she was just voicing an opinion. If just an opinion, yours and your wife's is certainly just as good. The Bible mainly addresses how we live our lives. Yet people, including many so-called "christians" here at AmSpec, are focused on style of worship (Catholics in particular placing their faith in their rituals). As a former member of a liberal church, I strongly suspect that your congregation is in decline because they can get the same stuff from TIME magazine, save money (subscription much cheaper than tithing!), sleep in on Sunday, not have to open that weird black book (the Bible), and oh yes, avoid arguments about wearing ties.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 2:57AM

Anti-Catholic Israel Firster Victor-Margie exposes her Anti-Catholic Agenda once again.

We Catholics and Our Pope don't take orders from Israel Firster Anti-Catholic Agendists like You.

"While acting as prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Pope Benedict XVI wrote: “God, according to the Prophet, will replace the broken Sinai covenant with a New Covenant that cannot be broken . . . . The conditional covenant, which depended on man’s faithful observance of the Law, is replaced by the unconditional covenant in which God binds himself irrevocably.”

The Catholic Church does officially teach that the Mosaic covenant was fulfilled and replaced by the New Covenant in Christ.

If You Don't Like It Anti-Catholic Lapsed Catholic Margie With The Big Ax To Grind Against The Catholic Church, That's Your Problem And Neither The Catholic Church's Problem, Nor Catholics' Problem.

victor| 1.8.11 @ 3:00AM

What did Benedict tell King Abdullah about the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ?

victor| 1.8.11 @ 3:35AM

David T.:
"the early Church Fathers were remarkably consistent in their ecclesiology. They believed in a visible, hierarchical church that administered the sacraments through the apostolic priesthood.

Since you mentioned the early church "fathers",
take Ignatius, here are several “doctrines” that he promoted:
He promoted the idea of church hierarchy, in that churches should have elders and a ruling bishop; in other words, he was exalting one bishop over others, whereas in Scripture, these were only referred to as elders.
He also taught that churches could not baptize unless there was a “bishop”.

Augustine taught that the “sacraments” were evidence of grace.
He also promoted infant baptism, the veneration of Mary in terms of salvation, accepted the “doctrine” of celibacy for priests and he believed that the true interpretation of Scripture was derived from the declaration of church councils and not from the reading of Scripture itself.

And the people were prevented from reading or studying Scripture when the Roman church decreed that the Bible would only be written in Latin starting in 600AD so that only one was allowed by the “official” Catholic church, and that was the Latin Bible. Anyone caught using any other translation, not ordained by the Roman Catholic church, was subject to death.

Yes, by all means, read the early church “fathers”, and you will see all of the false doctrines they taught.
Matthew 23:9 “And call no man your father upon the earth for one is your Father which is in heaven”

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 3:44AM

Memo To Fanatic Anti-Catholic Israel Firster Agendist Victor-Margie:

King Abdullah, a direct descendant of the Prophet, and his wife, Queen Rania, other members of the Royal Family and top officials gave the Pope a red-carpet welcome with a 21-gun salute. Hundreds of Christians wearing shirts bearing photos of Benedict and King Abdullah lined the main road and showered the Pope’s motorcade with rose petals.
In a brief speech the pontiff steered clear of making any political remarks that might spark trouble during his week-long tour of Jordan, Israel and the Palestinian territories.

“My visit to Jordan gives me a welcome opportunity to speak of my deep respect for the Muslim community, and to pay tribute to the leadership shown by His Majesty the King in promoting a better understanding of the virtues proclaimed by Islam,” the Pope said shortly after landing in Amman. Queen Rania wrote on Twitter, the social networking website, about Benedict XVI’s first visit to an Arab country. “Just choppered to airport to receive the Pope. Husband piloting, he got acrobatic to quiet butterflies in stomach . . . told us he was action man!” she said on the site.

A Jordanian army band with bagpipes and drums played the Vatican and Jordanian anthems before the Pope and the King inspected the guard of honour. Abdullah Abdul-Qader, a cleric at Amman’s oldest mosque, told worshippers during Friday prayers to welcome the Pope’s visit. “I urge you to show respect for your fellow Christians as they receive their church leader,” he said at al-Husseini mosque.

victor| 1.8.11 @ 9:45AM

ClinTimmy*:
"In a brief speech the pontiff steered clear of making any political remarks"

Yes, speaking of Jesus to muslims would not only be political, but bad form, eh?

"and to pay tribute to the leadership shown by His Majesty the King in promoting a better understanding of the virtues proclaimed by Islam,” the Pope said shortly"

And what would those "virtues" be, eh?

How "allah" is the "god" of the universe\ and that all must submit to his authority?

Is the pope going to do that?

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 6:28PM

The pope is too busy kissing up to scientists right now. His latest is that God "created" the Big Bang.

Just another in a long line of Catholic hierarchy making themselves God. The Bible isn't good enough for these people.

They not only reject the book of Genesis calling the Creation of God an allegory, but now this.

Disgusting and despicable.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 11:08PM

"Kissing up to scientists"?? Because the Pope, like every intelligent Christian, recognizes that science's discovery of "The Big Bang" only confirms what Genesis tells us about it: God said, Let there be light! ... and flash, the universe was created!

We don't need to keep our minds in medieval times and be Christians. This is the same kind of thinking that led to the Catholic church condemning Galileo and Copernicus for recognizing that the earth revolves around the sun, not the other way around. Let us embrace the truths that science reveals to us, that confirm to us the wisdom that God revealed to His people thousands of years ago before they could fully understand those truths.

victor| 1.9.11 @ 1:35AM

RCV:
"the Pope, like every intelligent Christian, recognizes that science's discovery of "The Big Bang" only confirms what Genesis tells us about it: God said, Let there be light! ... and flash, the universe was created!"

From Wikipedia:
"The Big Bang was the event which led to the formation of the universe, according to the prevailing cosmological theory of the universe's early development (known as the Big Bang theory or Big Bang model). According to the Big Bang model, the universe, originally in an extremely hot and dense state that expanded rapidly, has since cooled by expanding to the present diluted state, and continues to expand today. Based on the best available measurements as of 2010, the original state of the universe existed around 13.7 billion years ago,[1][2] which is often referred to as the time when the Big Bang occurred.[3][4] The theory is the most comprehensive and accurate explanation supported by scientific evidence and observations.[5][6]"

No mention of God. I wonder why?

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 2:57AM

The Pope properly recognized who the author of the Big Bang was. You would just like to ignore it because it doesn't fit your preconceived picture.

victor| 1.9.11 @ 3:16AM

We don't need the pope to tell us what the Bible says.

The popes throughout history have had a habit telling us what to think.

And we do not need to pope to tell us what God thinks either.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 3:56AM

Nor do we need you and Margie to tell us what God thinks or what the Bible says. But you do, as you have every right to; as does the Pope.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 11:43AM

Actually you post lies that are begging for some truth to be spoken.

The pope doesn't speak the truth. He's into making himself God, which makes him a liar.

Worship God.

victor| 1.10.11 @ 3:16AM

RCV:
"Nor do we need you and Margie to tell us what God thinks or what the Bible says."

RCV reminds me that he belongs to one of two groups:

Those that have Bibles, but don't read them,

And

Those that read Bibles, but don't believe them.

Now tell us why you belong to a church that accepts homosexual clergy?

No wonder you have a problem with Paul.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 11:45AM

The author of the Big Bang are scientists.

Read the Bible for the author and Creator of the Universe, He's in there and He tells you how He created it.

He's kissing up to the scientists.. despicable.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 11:51AM

Not only that vic, but the Bible says this:

"The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters." Gen. 1:2.

So this latest blasphemy by the head of the false church who claims that the account of God's Creation is Genesis is "an allegory", isn't one bit surprising.

At least not to Bible believing Christians.

Now let's hear it from the geniuses that try and say that because THEY weren't there, THEY can't say how He did it.. when He tells us how He did it!

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 11:56AM

RCV lies for a liar.
RCV mocks Jesus' miracles and picks and chooses which parts of the Bible suit him, and rejects the rest.
He says homosexuality isn't Sin.
Now he is going to tell us, like the pope, and the mighty scientists, that God created their Big Bang theory, (which doesn't include God at all and HIS account of Creation!)
Yes, he is kissing up to the scientists.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 4:51PM

God didn't create "the Big Bang theory". He created the Universe. And God's creation of the Universe in a blinding instant, as described in Genesis, is consonant with, not in conflict with, scientific findings about the universe that are often termed "the Big Bang Theory".

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 10:26PM

Keep trying.
The Big Bang theory doesn't include God.
The Bible says that GOD CREATED the Heavens and the Earth. And He took six days to do it, whatever that means... then it took 6 days and it wasn't a "Big Bang". Hmm?
But you'll try and justify your pope just like the rest of them.
I'm going to stick to what God says.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 3:59AM

Memo To Anti-Catholic & Lapsed Catholic Victor-Margie with The big Ax To Grind Against The Catholic Church & Catholics:

The first non-Latin edition of the Bible were in German and French. English was not used much at this time. The Protestants were indeed the first to print non-Latin version of the Bible.
Do keep in perspective the fact that at that time, very few people knew how to read, and most of those that could, actually could read in Latin.

victor| 1.8.11 @ 9:47AM

ClinTimmy*:
"Do keep in perspective the fact that at that time, very few people knew how to read, and most of those that could, actually could read in Latin."

Do tell us why the punishment for translating the Bible into English was death?

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 11:54AM

Do tell Us Why You Have Such A Big, Big Ax To Grind Everyday On American Spectator, Fanatic Anti-Catholic/Lapsed Catholic Agenda Jiosey White Trash Bigot Victor-Margie.

And What's With The Victor-Margie Posting.

Ya Gonna Tell Us That You're American Spectator's Resident Tag Team Posting Anti-Catholic Agendists.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:13PM

You are nothing.
You are nobody.
Jesus Christ is LORD.
You are a liar and a provocator.
You slander me and my husband constantly here for bringing God's Truth into the open.
I trust that your deserts will be just, when He comes to Judge between the righteous and the liars.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 12:22PM

You're American Spectator's Resident Joisey White Trash Anti-Catholic Bigot, Sittin' In Your Curlers ,Fuzzy Slippers & Mumu, In Your House Trailer Hawkin' American Spectator Because Ya Got No T.V. & No Friends & No Life.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:49PM

Jesus Christ is LORD!
His Truth Reigns.

"But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed." Is. 1:28.

victor| 1.9.11 @ 1:39AM

ClinTimmy*:
"And What's With The Victor-Margie Posting."

I am me and Margie is she,

And you are the Walrus,

Coo-coo-ca-choo.

Do tell us why you confess your Sin to a priest which is not Biblical, eh?

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 4:10AM

Memo To Anti-Catholic & Lapsed Catholic Victor-Margie with The Big Ax To Grind Against The Catholic Church & Catholics:

Catholics had been translating the Bible into English ever since the time of the Venerable Bede. While the Bible was usually read in Latin before the Reformation, it is a myth that Catholics did not allow Bibles in the vernacular. However, they only allowed Catholic-authorized translations, hence their hostility to translations that they did not authorize, like William Tyndale's Bible.

victor| 1.8.11 @ 9:52AM

ClinTimmy*:
"they only allowed Catholic-authorized translations, hence their hostility to translations that they did not authorize, like William Tyndale's Bible."

hostility?

Is that why Thomas More, a Catholic, persecuted those who did, and William Tyndale in particular, unto DEATH?

PS Timmy, I am not a lapsed or any other kind of Catholic, Roman or otherwise.
I only know the Truth and those who seek to profess it.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 12:29PM

You're A Fanatic Lapsed Catholic Born to Catholic Parents From Joisey With A Big, Big Anti-Catholic Ax To Grind Against The Catholic Church And Catholics.

You're A CINO: Christian In Name Only.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:48PM

You never stop lying, do you?

victor| 1.8.11 @ 2:03PM

ClinTimmy*:
"You're A Fanatic Lapsed Catholic Born to Catholic Parents From Joisey"

I am not now, nor have I ever been a Catholic, Roman or otherwise.

My parents were never at any time Roman, or otherwise, Catholics. They were from Russia and were Russian Orthodox.

Why do you continually lie in the presence of God and man?

Why do you continually slander, both myself and my wife, in the presence of God and man?

Do you not care where you end up?

My wife's postings in this thread were facts from history and the fact is that you simply cannot abide the truth or are simply blind to it, therefore, like a typical Leftist, you choose to personally attack and attempt to destroy her reputation and mine.

She nor I have an axe to grind as you say.

This all began when you falsely accused her of being anti-Catholic to which she posted the historical truth about the church.

You are one nasty liar.

Clint| 1.9.11 @ 11:42AM

You Victor-Margie-Sybil, Are American Spectator's Resident Anti-Catholic Fanatic Bigot From Joisey.

Now, Ya Wanna Claim That You Are American Spectator's Only Tag Team Resident Fanatic Bigot White Trash Team From Joisey.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 1:24PM

Substance.. nothing but substance, I say!

Richard Baker| 1.8.11 @ 10:56AM

Gents:
The TRUTH is that Tyndale (d.1536), Huss(d.1415), and all those persecuted to death were done in quite a long time ago. Just because this sort of thing happened centuries ago doesn't excuse the Islamic lunacy happening NOW. Islam has been at war with itself and others since it's inception. To this day Shia hate Sunni who hate Sufi who hate Wahhabi and they all are obsessed with killing each other for blasphemy/heresy/pick something. I suggest some of you read the Koran to discover the source of this millenial madness.

victor| 1.8.11 @ 11:20AM

Richard Baker:
"and all those persecuted to death were done in quite a long time ago. Just because this sort of thing happened centuries ago doesn't excuse the Islamic lunacy happening NOW."

No one is excusing islamic lunacy, but you cannot excuse persecution no matter when it happened.
Christians are being persecuted as we speak, by muslims and by other religions.
They will continue to be persecuted until Jesus Christ returns.

http://www.persecution.com/

http://www.opendoorsusa.org/

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:06PM

And the same spirit that martyred Martin Luther and William Tyndale is alive in those who curse us for telling the gospel of Jesus Christ and for telling the truth about Catholicism here.

Just for posting the historical facts.
The Devil's servants curse the Bible, and they curse Christians today, in this thread as they did from the very beginning.

So be it.
Jesus is LORD!

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 12:43PM

Ya mean this Martin Luther, You Fanatic Religious Bigot Margie.

Martin Luther :
"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings...are to be taken from them."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

"What shall we do with...the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...their homes also should be razed and destroyed."

Now Let's See You Tell Tell Practicing Jews Where You Say They Go When They Die, Fanatic Religious Bigot Victor-Margie.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:46PM

Everyone who reads here knows YOU are the resident Jew hater, Tim*/Clint.

Wow.

Jesus Christ is still LORD!

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 1:00PM

They Know I'm Not An Israel Firster Agendist Fanatic Like You.
Aaaand Unlike You, Fanatic Religious Bigot Margie, I Don't Have Problems With Jewish Religious Practices and Have Often Attended Jewish Services With Numerous Jewish Friends. We Don't Have Political Litmus Tests On Our Friendships.

I Say Practicing Jews Go To Heaven , Just As Other Good People Do.

Now Lay Your Bigoted Eisegesis on Practicing Jews And See What They Think About Your Personal Religious Bigotry.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 1:15PM

"He who conceals hatred has lying lips, and he who utters slander is a fool." Prov. 10:18.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 3:43PM

We can acknowledge Martin Luther's valid criticisms of the corruption that had developed in the Church, and his contributions to free religious thought, while recognizing this truth: he was a vicious anti-semite who contributed mightily to the German hatred of Jews that led ultimately to the Holocaust.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 5:17PM

Martin Luther stood up against the false doctrines of Catholicism, and gor this he was put to death.
That is God's truth.
You and Tim*/Clint are known liars and so the charge of anti-semitism is not to be believed.
Fox's book of Martyrs is an historical book which is known by Christians thruought the world and gives an historical account of the Martyrs who died at the hands of those who adhered to the false Religion of Catholicism.
Try and twist the truth all you want. You cannot change actual truth and history.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 5:43PM

Margie: Martin Luther's vicious writings against the Jews are fact, and there for all to read. You can close your eyes to them if you choose and pretend they don't exist, but they are there for all to read. During the Nazi era, Hitler's propagandists were quite fond of quoting them extensively to show how Jews had always been evil. On Foxes' Book of Martyrs, see my post above.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 9:19PM

What ignorance, what lies!! Martin Luther was not "put to death", for "anti-Catholicism or anything else. He died in his bed, of heart failure. Why do you just make up "facts" like that?

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 5:20PM

Fox's Book of Martyrs and the account of Martin Luther:
http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox109.htm

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 5:48PM

Martin Luther wrote a very famous book, "On the Jews and Their Lies". For a brief introduction, this is from Wikipedia:

"On the Jews and Their Lies (German: Von den Jüden und iren Lügen; in modern spelling Von den Juden und ihren Lügen) is a 65,000-word anti-semitic treatise written in 1543 by the German Reformation leader Martin Luther.

In the treatise, Luther describes Jews as a "base, whoring people, that is, no people of God, and their boast of lineage, circumcision, and law must be accounted as filth." Luther wrote that they are "full of the devil's feces ... which they wallow in like swine," and the synagogue is an "incorrigible whore and an evil slut".

This just happens to be fact, Margie. If you have some facts that say otherwise, please, please share them with us.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 6:10PM

The fact is, he was Martyred for his stand against the false doctrines of the Catholic church.

His Judge is in Heaven, and so is ours.

Your attempt to slander him here in order to try and minimize that truth is the real issue here.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 9:16PM

I'm not slandering him, Margie. I'm telling the truth about a book HE wrote. I've acknowledged the truthfulness of his particular protest against Church corruption, and his contribution to religious truth and freedom. But even his own church has publicly acknowledged and apologized for his virulent anti-semitism. He is one of the spiritual fathers of Germany's Shoah, an event he would have applauded. Read his book.

And Luther wasn't martyred. He tied of heart failure in his own home. His final sermon, by the way, was one of his strongest diatribes against the Jews. Read a biography of him

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 9:33PM

From the Wikipedia entry on Martin Luther:

Luther's other major works on the Jews were his 60,000-word treatise Von den Juden und Ihren Lügen (On the Jews and Their Lies), and Vom Schem Hamphoras und vom Geschlecht Christi (On the Holy Name and the Lineage of Christ), both published in 1543, three years before his death. Luther argued that the Jews were no longer the chosen people but "the devil's people": he referred to them with violent, vile language. Luther advocated setting synagogues on fire, destroying Jewish prayerbooks, forbidding rabbis from preaching, seizing Jews' property and money, and smashing up their homes, so that these "poisonous envenomed worms" would be forced into labour or expelled "for all time". In Robert Michael's view, Luther's words "We are at fault in not slaying them" amounted to a sanction for murder. Luther's "recommendations" for how to treat the Jews was a clear reference to the "sharp mercy" of Deuteronomy 13, the punishments prescribed by Moses for those who led others to "false gods".

Luther spoke out against the Jews in Saxony, Brandenburg, and Silesia. Josel of Rosheim, the Jewish spokesman who tried to help the Jews of Saxony in 1537, later blamed their plight on "that priest whose name was Martin Luther—may his body and soul be bound up in hell!—who wrote and issued many heretical books in which he said that whoever would help the Jews was doomed to perdition." Josel asked the city of Strasbourg to forbid the sale of Luther's anti-Jewish works: they refused initially, but relented when a Lutheran pastor in Hochfelden used a sermon to urge his parishioners to murder Jews. Luther's influence persisted after his death. Throughout the 1580s, riots led to the expulsion of Jews from several German Lutheran states.

Luther was the most widely read author of his generation, and he acquired the status of a prophet within Germany. According to the prevailing view among historians, his anti-Jewish rhetoric contributed significantly to the development of antisemitism in Germany, and in the 1930s and 1940s provided an "ideal underpinning" for the National Socialists' attacks on Jews. Reinhold Lewin writes that "whoever wrote against the Jews for whatever reason believed he had the right to justify himself by triumphantly referring to Luther." According to Michael, just about every anti-Jewish book printed in the Third Reich contained references to and quotations from Luther. Heinrich Himmler wrote admiringly of his writings and sermons on the Jews in 1940. The city of Nuremberg presented a first edition of On the Jews and their Lies to Julius Streicher, editor of the Nazi newspaper Der Stürmer, on his birthday in 1937; the newspaper described it as the most radically anti-Semitic tract ever published. It was publicly exhibited in a glass case at the Nuremberg rallies and quoted in a 54-page explanation of the Aryan Law by Dr. E.H. Schulz and Dr. R. Frercks. On 17 December 1941, seven Protestant regional church confederations issued a statement agreeing with the policy of forcing Jews to wear the yellow badge, "since after his bitter experience Luther had already suggested preventive measures against the Jews and their expulsion from German territory." According to Daniel Goldhagen, Bishop Martin Sasse, a leading Protestant churchman, published a compendium of Luther's writings shortly after Kristallnacht, for which Diarmaid MacCulloch, Professor of the History of the Church in the University of Oxford argued that Luther's writing was a "blueprint." Sasse applauded the burning of the synagogues and the coincidence of the day, writing in the introduction, "On 10 November 1938, on Luther's birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany." The German people, he urged, ought to heed these words "of the greatest antisemite of his time, the warner of his people against the Jews."

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 10:01PM

Wikipedia is written by anyone who wants to write there.. including liars.
Leftist hacks love quoting from it.
Fox's Book of Martyrs is a reliable source.
God knows it, I know it and so do you.
And they hounded Martin Luther to death, and put to death thousands upon thousands more.
And that same sick and perverted spirit is alive and well in people like you and Tim*/Clint who HATE Bible believing Christians.

RCV| 1.8.11 @ 10:33PM

Do you have a single FACT to deny any of the truths about Martin Luther I've quoted? No you don't, which is why you simply avoid facing the truth about him. But go ahead, keep your head in the sand on this topic like you do on some many others. The only "hate" I see consistently on this site, is the venom that pours from you (and that vile Tim*). I've defended you against TAS silencing you, but I can see why they tire of the hate that pours out of you with every post.

The Bible-believing Christians I know, and they are many and good people, don't go around spewing vile names at everyone they disagree with like you do.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 11:37AM

Why because I say you are a liar?
You are.
That isn't hate, it's the truth.
Why? Because I say Clint/Tim* is a liar?
He is.
Your definition of hate is not God's.
His definition of love is speaking the truth to lies in spite of flying false accusations.

And actually.. you fit the definition of hating God.. by your mocking of Jesus' miracles and attempts at discrediting the Apostle Paul.. along with other Bible believing Christians.
Of course this is what Leftists do, accuse people of doing exactly what they are.
Keep lying, RCV and I'll keep telling you that's what you are.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 11:39AM

Oh and the issue here, before you successfully changed it to Martin Luther's character, was about the false doctrines of the Catholic church.

Way to go, Leftist Lawyer man.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 2:25PM

No, Margie, as you can see from the article, the issue here was the supposedly false doctrines of the Methodist Church, until you changed it as you always try to into an attack on Catholic theology. And you were the one who brought up Martin Luther, not me, by falsely stating that he was "martyred" and killed by the Church.

And please, grow up and stop the name-calling. It's not very becoming.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 2:34PM

If Martin Luther hadn't died you can bet your rear end they would've finished him off, just like they did to thousands upon thousands of Bible believing "heretics". They ceaselessly persecuted the man, and drove him to his death.
So spare me.

And you're still a blatant liar.
What actually isn't becoming, is that.
You call God a liar by saying homosexuality isn't Sin.
You call Him a liar by denying the Apostle Paul's words as God's Truth.. and in fact you may be blaspheming the Holy spirit by doing that.
Take heed to yourself.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 2:30PM

Then why do you and Victor quote it, as you do even on this thread, when it suits your purpose? Deal with the substance of the issue for a change. The spirit of the Inquisition is in fact alive in you, in your constant attempt to root out all heresies and your hounding of anyone who happens to have religious views different from your narrow conception of God and the Bible.

You're the one who hates, Margie, not I.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 2:38PM

The substance of the "issue" is false Religion.
Phony liars who hold themselves up as God and that includes any and all false Religions.. they are all always up for discussion.
Just not the Catholic Religion. That's off limits.. to cowards.
I am no coward.
Don't like it?
Tell it to the God of the Bible.
Snake.

darcy| 1.9.11 @ 2:42AM

One thing you seem to be overlooking, RCV, is that Martin Luther was equally vicious against "Popery" and the "Turks." Had Hitler chosen to annihilate either one of these groups, Luther would today be similarly denounced for his tirades against them. It was very convenient for Hitler to have the vicious rantings of Luther to bolster his demonic final solution. Let's just blame Luther and let Hitler off, shall we?

The truth of the matter is that Martin Luther was an extreme polemicist and jealous to a fault to SCREAM FROM THE HILLTOPS that salvation was through Jesus Christ alone. He understood that MEN'S souls were at stake; he understood that Jews remaining Jews and denying the Messiah, that Popery which led men away from Jesus to worship the Pope and tradition, and that the Turks were all of the devil. It was the truth these people needed to hear so that they would not take false comfort in their FALSE religion.

Now, if you disagree with that. Fine. But I daresay that your lack of understanding of confessional Lutheran theology is nothing compared to your odious attacks against Luther who rescued the church from the false teaching of the Catholic church that mislead it followers to believe that their salvation could be bought for the cost of an indulgence, among other pernicious falsehoods.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 2:54AM

Wonderful apology for vicious anti-semitism. At least the Lutheren Church itself had the decency to repudiate Luther's sin. As I said before, you can acknowledge his righteous condemnation of the sorry state the Church had fallen into, and his great contributions to religious freedom, but it is really disgusting after the Shoah to justify the prime source of German antisemitism that led to it. Shame.

darcy| 1.9.11 @ 3:04AM

The shame is on you, RCV, for your comments to me. Men today blame God for every evil under the sun. They commit evil acts in his name; they quote the Bible as justification for their evil deeds. Are we to condemn God for the evil that men do in his name? This is what you're doing to Luther -- and you have no idea whatsoever about his theology; and until you do, I'd advise you to zip it.

Evil men will continue to scapegoat others for their own diabolic acts. You obviously totally ignored what I said about Luther's rants, rants that were also directed at other groups.

victor| 1.9.11 @ 3:22AM

darcy:
"The shame is on you, RCV"

You presume that RCV is capable of shame, but he proves that he is not.

"You obviously totally ignored what I said about Luther's rants, rants that were also directed at other groups."

As a lawyer, he is trained to ignore the obvious and to only put forth his agenda.

Witness his attempt to slander John Foxe, William Tyndale and Dale Robbins above.

He never lets facts get in his way.

Also witness his attempts to downgrade Reagan, while promoting Clinton and Obama as great economists and intellects.

darcy| 1.9.11 @ 3:51AM

I have noticed this, too, Victor, about RCV's replies and comments in the past. I appreciate your input; thanks.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 3:52AM

What is it about the two of you that requires you to personally attack other people because you disagree with them? I uttered not one word against William Tyndale, whom I admire greatly; I simply pointed out that he was not "murdered" by Thomas More, who was already dead when he was executed. I have great admiration as well for John Foxe; I merely pointed out his lack of objectivity on the subject of English Catholics, given the purpose of his writing his magnificant work, which I have a copy of in my own library. Dale Robbins is indeed what I said about him, an anti-Catholic fundamentalist.

As for Ronald Reagan, I have written at length in praise of him and the reasons I voted enthusiastically for him. I do happen to admire the presidencies of Clinton and Obama, though I have never called either a great economist.

Why you choose to be so mean spirited is a mystery to me. It does not speak well for your brand of Chrisitianity.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 11:23AM

RCV is a blatant liar.
He has actually openly mocked Jesus' miracles, discredited the Apostle Paul, and says that parts of the Bible don't have to be listened to because infallable men wrote it.
He despises Bible believing Christians and has openly said as much point blank.
He cares nothing for the Truth like his pal Tim*?clint.
He is a Leftist Lawyer who comes in here to appear sane but is an Obamamaton, and everyone knows it.
He isn't to be trusted.
As for me, this is a thread talking about Religion. AmSpec sees fit to write about other Religions but would never write about the FALSE doctrines and practices of the Catholic Religion.
When others are permitted to speak their minds about other Religion so am I.
I speak the truth to lies.
The Catholic Religion is FALSE and it is so because it has NEVER repented of its FALSE doctrines.

"Come out from among her?" Rev. 18:4.

It is NOT God's will to practice the things the church says you should practice.

Read the Bible. Jesus is coming back soon and if you want to be a Christian God says you MUST listen to HIS words, not a false Religion.

What they teach is NOT Biblical!

RCV & Tim*/Clint are liars and will discredit anyone who speaks the Biblical truth.

"For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." Mk. 8:38.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away." Mk. 13:31.

"'I know your works. Behold, I have set before you an open door, which no one is able to shut; I know that you have but little power, and yet you have kept My word and have not denied My Name." Rev. 3:8.

God says you must KEEP HIS WORD.
Christians keep His word.
Catholicism does NOT.
In order to call yourself a Christian, which MEANS follower of Christ, you have to keep HIS word.

Not what the pope tells you, not what any man tells you, and surely not what Tim*/Clint and RCV tells you.
JESUS IS LORD.
Follow Him.

Clint| 1.9.11 @ 11:36AM

You're A Serial Slandering Liar Anti-Catholic Fanatic Margie Liar
Now, American Spectator's Resident Anti-Catholic Fanatic Is Attempting To Link Tea Party Clint To Obama LawBoy RCV.

The Only Thing RCV & I Have In Common Is That We Both Know That Margie Is American Spectator's Resident Religious Fanatic Bigot.

Go To Hell Joisey White Trash Bigot

victor| 1.10.11 @ 3:26AM

RCV:
"It does not speak well for your brand of Chrisitianity."

Brand? Brand??

My Christianity comes from reading the Bible and accepting Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior.

I was a hard core sinner until I gave my life to Christ seven years ago.

When did you give your life to Christ?

Speaking the truth is not mean spirited.

Withholding the truth is.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 11:41AM

My brand of Christianity is the Bible, where God's own words are found.
The one that you openly mock and reject.

"For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed, when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels." Mk. 8:38.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 3:44AM

I'm condemning Luther for his own words and acts during his life, in persecuting Jews. That he was vicious towards others is no countervailing virtue.

darcy| 1.9.11 @ 4:17AM

What you did was to attack Luther as an anti-semite and pin the blame for the Holocaust on him, otherwise you would not have taken the trouble to quote the lengthy Wikipedia article.

What you're really trying to do is to discredit Lutheranism altogether, by blackening the name of its founder, a founder who did not want the church of his theology named after him at all; a theology that might not have survived at all but for another Martin, Martin Chemnitz, who came after Luther and ensured that the Lutheran understanding of Scripture survived the Council of Trent.

And still you ignore what I wrote about Luther's chief concern: That forgiveness of sins is through faith in Jesus alone. I have to wonder now if even you don't believe that yourself, Anglican that you say you are.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 2:18PM

I have no desire whatsoever to discredit Lutheranism, a church for which I have the highest respect, and at which I have often worshipped. You seem to believe that everything in the world must be black and white, people must be devils or angels. I see people as human, with all the flaws all humans have, including you and me. People can accomplish great and wonderful things, which we can acknowledge without being blind to their individual failings. Take two of the greatest men who ever lived, in my estimation: St. Paul and Thomas Jefferson. St. Paul was a brilliant devoted man whom God chose for the task of bringing the Word to the Gentiles. God, of course, knew what He was doing in choosing Paul. Paul's organizational skills, his recognition of the impracticality of imposing Mosaic Law on non-Jews, all combined to advance Christianity to the major faith it is today. Was Paul perfect? No, he was a man of his time in many ways, including a belief in limitations of women's abilities and talents.

Look at Thomas Jefferson, the most brilliant political thinker of his, and in my view, any time. A man of unparalled intelligence, talents in so many diverse areas including architecture, science, botany -- the list could go on forever. Yet he owned other human beings, a contradiction he himself agonized over all his life, and trembled at the judgment God would have on him for it.

Martin Luther's legacy to freedom and to religious thought is unchallengable. He showed immense courage in standing up to a corrupt Church, and admirable steeliness in holding his ground when most would have recanted under pressure, as Galileo and so many others were forced to do. But was he perfect? Hardly. As he grew older, his hatred of the Jews intensified and he wrote that horrible book that had a profound and lasting and pernicious influence on Germany and its attitudes toward non-Christians that culminated in the Shoah.

We can be honest about facts and give people the credit they deserve, without setting a bar for them that they can never meet.

darcy| 1.9.11 @ 4:19PM

RCV: You know very well I never implied that Luther was perfect; you also know that I acknowledged his "vicious rant[ing]s” against not only the Jews, but the Pope and the "Turks" as well; you then proceed to malign me by saying my words were a "Wonderful apology for vicious anti-semitism." This is hardly an honest reading of my comments, your statement twisting my words to suit your own agenda apparently, whatever that is.

You never once acknowledged that Luther's chief concern (as I took pains to point out to you) was for the souls of people who clung to Judaism, the Pope, and Islam, whom he believed -- with the same force of conviction he had for his standing on the central tenet of Scripture of "justification by faith alone" over against the Catholic Church's false teaching of the time -- would be lost to eternal separation from God in hell if they continued in their false belief. You never once give him any credit for his concern for souls he believed were lost without Christ. Perhaps you have not recognized that even in the church, excommunication is not meant to caste out apostates as much as it is meant to bring them to their senses about the seriousness of the reality of their condition and to bring them back into the fold.

This is what you cannot abide, apparently, that Luther BELIEVED the Bible -- and again as I said -- SCREAMED FROM THE HILLTOPS to warn people against the dire consequences to their eternal souls for rejecting the only Savior God has given to mankind by which he may enter heaven, believing in the forgiveness of sins through the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross.

For further reading about German Fascism you might access a copy of Gene Edward Veith, Jr.’s book: Modern Fascism: The Threat to the Judeo-Christian Worldview, Concordia Publishing House, St. Louis, 1993, 187 pages. It’s quite enlightening too for its examination of the way in which the thinking of Nietzsche influenced Fascism.

RCV| 1.9.11 @ 4:46PM

Thanks for the tip, Darcy - I will follow up on Veith's book. I read most everything published on that awful period. Nietzche was indeed a major influence on German fascism.

I don't doubt for one moment Luther's strong commitment to the Bible and his concern that all people must be baptized into Christ for salvation. But have you actually read his book and the things he said of the Jews, and what people should do to them if they continued to follow the Torah which God had given to them?

The Catholic Church and its hateful inquistors also had that same concern for souls who they believed would be lost if not baptized into the Church. They too were sincere. But that sincerity and concern for souls led them to do awful things.

darcy| 1.9.11 @ 5:24PM

I appreciate your feedback and the discussion.

Dutch| 1.8.11 @ 11:53AM

Heavens! After reading through all this, I'm more clearly understanding why our Mormon missionaries are so successful. We have some dirthy laundry I suppose, but we mostly believe in ourselves.

Dutch| 1.8.11 @ 12:20PM

Not to brag (ok, so I am bragging), but the most conservative state in the Union (politically and religeously) is Mormon Utah.
AND, we're growing!

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 12:47PM

Watch Out Dutch. Margie Ain't To Fond Of You Mormons Either.

She's American Spectator's Resident Religious Fanatic Bigot.

Our Philadelphia Eagles Coach Andy ReidIs a Mormon ,Who Played For BYU.

We Like You Mormons.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 12:51PM

Clint/Tim* is a liar and slanderer.
You don't speak for me, vile person.
Jesus Christ is LORD!

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 1:02PM

You're A World Class CINO, Christian In Name Only Fraud.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 1:13PM

"An evildoer listens to wicked lips; and a liar gives heed to a mischievous tongue." Prov. 17:4.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 5:07PM

American Spectator's Resident Anti-Catholic Fanatic Crazy Lady Victor-Margie-Sybil Is A World Class Nut Bag.

Attendants Get The Net.

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 5:21PM

You're a fanatical liar and God will judge you accordingly for your slander.

Clint| 1.8.11 @ 7:12PM

God Likes Me.

So Does American Spectator.

Box Of Tissues Crybaby ?

Hmmmmm ?

Margie| 1.8.11 @ 9:34PM

God hates liars.
The Bible says liars go to Hell, and He especially hates those who persecute His children.
Read the Bible instead of listening to your warped Religion.

Clint| 1.9.11 @ 9:59AM

Then You're Goin' To Hell American Spectator's Resident Fanatic Anti-Catholic Nut Bag Victor-Margie-Sybil

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 11:27AM

Why are we going to Hell?
For speaking the truth to lies and false doctrine?
For posting the truth about Catholicism?
For standing up to your disgusting slander and lies?

You have no idea what love is.
You know only hate.
The same exact hate that put to death thousands upon thousands of Bible believing Christians by the same Religion you justify your hate with.
You are the current day Catholic persecutor.. and you do it well.

GOD is my Judge, not some haughty puke filled with contempt for Him.

"Remember the word that I said to you, 'A servant is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also." Jn. 15:20.

Praise God.

Clint| 1.9.11 @ 11:53PM

You Are A World Class Hater, Cynically Using Your Nasty Ass Perverted Personal Religious Bastardization of God's Love, As A Club To Beat Down Other People's Religious Beliefs.

You Are One Nasty Ass White Trash Bigot From Joisey.
Nothing More Than That.

God Has Your Hypocrite Number Nasty Bitch.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 11:38AM

"Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of Life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood."
Rev. 22:14 & 15.

Mike| 1.8.11 @ 11:55AM

UMC membership reached a peak in about 1968 with, I think, about 14 million members in the US. We are now around 8 million. I think the major reason is the UMC's adoption of a pro abortion stance.

Roe v Wade was decided in 1973. The UMC enthusiastically went along with it. Abortion corrupts (kills) everything it touches, and it has touched the UMC. We are dying. The only way to avoid death is repentance, turning away from the culture of death called abortion. Why chose death?

The UMC has lately made some halting steps towards becoming a prolife denomination. We have had at least one Bishop call abortion a "sin." The African portion of our beloved church is already strongly pro life. They are growing, we are not.

Unless the church changes its stance, we will continue to die, and it is probably good that that happens.

Who Knows?| 1.8.11 @ 12:04PM

Want “proof” that God exists?

Last night, the University of Delaware played Eastern Washington for the championship of the FC S football division.

I only watched part of the first half, as Delaware seemed unbeatable, leading 19-0 at intermission. Of course, random shots of Delaware alum Joe Biden, beaming away, also turned me off.

I flipped channels around the end of the third quarter, and the score was then 19-6. Next, Eastern Washington managed to cut the leads to 19-13.

Old Joe and other Delaware fans were squirming in their seats!

Well, Eastern Washington managed to score again, and then hold out Delaware, winning, most improbably, 20-19.

It was so sweet to see Biden suffer!

Thank God!

Rob| 1.9.11 @ 12:36AM

I am a recovering Methodist. I broke from the Church several years ago, when political correctness became more important than the Gospel. I am now a member of another group, from a far older tradition in Christainity-predates the Roman Church and is more focused on the individual rather than the person. It is independent of the contemporary "mainline" protestant churches and is truely focused on the Gospel.

R. E. Babcock| 1.9.11 @ 9:37AM

I didn't leave the Presbyterian Church...they left me! What is happening in the Methodist Church is happening in a lot of the traditional protestant denominations and the people left behind by those elitist purveyors of "kumbayah-christianity" are looking for something to give them moral guidance and food for their soul to get them through the week. Who wants to attend a church that practices "moral-relativism" and doesn't stand for anything as it pertains to christian dogma? In the world, there is good and evil and we need to condemn it openly and stand up to it when its shown. What ever happened to religion providing a moral compass to show sinners the way to repent and sin no more? Didn't Jesus Christ himself say this? The ruling class of the protestant churches are like the old rulers of the Jewish faith who Jesus condemned for being all show and no substance.

somnolence| 1.9.11 @ 12:28PM

I'll also ask Evanston2 another question. Just where specifically in the Bible, (which I consider God's holy word) does it say "this Bible is indeed my holy word?" Like I say, I do believe it sets out all the plans and outlines for living a spiritual life; it is also filled with many contradictions, and I really don't care who takes me to task that I said this, I simply can't interpret every scripture I read from it literally. I place much more faith in my Redeemer dying for my sins on Calvary than the good book which was INTERPRETED by disciples, and later monastic scholars of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. It really makes no difference whether the preacher was voicing an opinion, which he is certainly entitled to do, or cite Biblical scripture. Christ didn't care if you wore a tie or not. End of discussion.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 1:18PM

The Bible was not "interpreted" by those who wrote it. They wrote God's words.

These men were moved by the Holy Spirit, and spoke from God. (2 Pe. 1:21).

God says this:

"And I have put My words in your mouth, and hid you in the shadow of My Hand, stretching out the Heavens and laying the foundations of the earth, and saying to Zion, 'You are My people.'" Is. 51:17.

""And as for Me, this is my covenant with them, says the LORD: My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your children, or out of the mouth of your children's children, says the LORD, from this time forth and for evermore." Is. 59:21.

The same Holy Spirit that God breathed into His Prophets in the Old Testament is the same Holy Spirit that He breathes into us today when we ask to receive it. It is what gives us the power to become a child of God. The Catholic church doesn't teach this. They teach that the pope is "the vicar of Christ" and to listen to him.

But Jesus says that we all can receive the Holy Spirit ourselves, and be taught by the same God that instructed the Prophets. That's what makes one an actual Christian, because without His Spirit living inside of us, we can't resist sin, and we cannot even know Him.

The Bible says that we are NOT all automatically children of God. And that we must receive and believe in Him.
How?
According to His words, by being born of His Spirit:

"But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, He gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn. 1:12.

So you see that it says we must become children of God.. that we're not already.

If you don't have the Holy Spirit, you don't belong to Him.

"God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in Spirit and Truth." Jn. 4:24.

God's own words are of the utmost importance!
Not only "do words mean things" as they say.. which is true. But how much more then, do God's words mean things?
And His words are essential in order to know His thinking and His will.

"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the LORD. For as the Heavens are higher than the earth, so are My ways higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts." Is. 55:8 & 9.

Not only is reading the Bible a joy and a new discovery each day, but it is the lifeblood of every Christian on earth. It is where we are nurtured spiritually and fed "with the finest of wheat".

Jesus Himself wants an actual relationship with us.. and that can only occur through the receiving of His Holy Spirit into our hearts.

To know how.. it is written in the Bible.. in God's own Spirit filled words!
God bless. Great questions you have asked here.

Evanston2| 1.10.11 @ 12:34AM

somnolence, This will sound mean, but your questions are self-contradicting. First, if the Bible says (using your words) "this Bible is indeed my holy word" does that make it true? Second, you say "it is also filled with many contradictions." So God cannot protect the content of a book? That's not much of a God, is it, and you still say (Thirdly) that "I place much more faith in my Redeemer dying for my sins on Calvary." So, God cannot protect the content of a book but you're willing to place your faith in Him? Fourth, how do you know about this Redeemer? From the Bible. You certainly can point to the "Holy Roman Catholic Church" but given its sordid history and recantation of many beliefs & practices, is this institution of men really trustworthy? Sixth, you say that it "makes no difference whether the preacher was voicing an opinion" and then you say "Christ didn't care if you wore a tie." Well, how do you know what Christ thinks? Well, you can check with the friendly fellows in robes, or perhaps (just perhaps) you could read the Bible. And the great many web sites that address assertions like those you make (for example, that the Bible is filled with contradictions -- which I believe, FYI, even Rome would find heretical...they just would assert that it's incomplete and that the Catholic church has even more words from God, via the pope: ex cathedra). Just type questions like "is the Bible true" into Google and you'll find atheistic, Roman, and reformed apologetics on the subject. I hope you do so, since you claim to be staking your life on your relationship with your Redeemer, though you don't seem to trust Him to have any real power in this world. Or perhaps, for you, your faith is the "End of discussion." I do wonder what a faith with almost no actual confidence or content is like (I would call it "unbelief") but this is certainly not about my opinion. I direct folks to the Bible because it is the most-documented and read literature in human history. Its content is factual and tangible and you can either believe that it is real, that it is fake, or that it is so contradictory and confusing that it is useless in this life (and knowledge of it is little more than trivia). We are certainly not saved by knowledge alone (1 Cor 13:2 applies) but I hope you will continue to wrestle with God (Gen 32:24-30) and like Jacob have your name changed (if you are not already one of His people) to Israel.

somnolence| 1.9.11 @ 1:53PM

God bless you Margie. I believe in the Holy Trinity, and not the Pope "being the vicar of Christ." However, I will continue to place precedence with my Redeemer's death on the cross, and the Star Still Shining Bright than over the scholarly monastic, often contradictory words within the Bible. The scriptures are very helpful in fortifying our unending quest to live within the holy life, unfortunately turning the other cheek sometimes clashed too frequently with being the recipient of the jawbone of an ass.

somnolence| 1.9.11 @ 1:53PM

God bless you Margie. I believe in the Holy Trinity, and not the Pope "being the vicar of Christ." However, I will continue to place precedence with my Redeemer's death on the cross, and the Star Still Shining Bright than over the scholarly monastic, often contradictory words within the Bible. The scriptures are very helpful in fortifying our unending quest to live within the holy life, unfortunately turning the other cheek sometimes clashed too frequently with being the recipient of the jawbone of an ass.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 2:24PM

somnolence,

I can tell that Him who you seek is the same One I seek, but you've been burnt by Religion.

Please don't mistake the Bible with the words of men who have their agendas. The words in the Bible have one purpose.. to guide you into the Truth.

Have you prayed yet.. I mean actually just simply and humbly prayed from your heart to the Lord and asked Him to allow His Holy Spirit to come inside of your heart?

I did. And He did. And HE still does for anyone who asks.

As it is written:

"If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!" Lk. 11:13.

It is amazing that the Creator of the Universe would have anything to do with horrible sinners, and we all are.. but yet He does.

I have a friend who when she was younger, the Holy Spirit actually appeared as a ray of light and entered into her heart. God let her see this.. how beautiful is that?
We all don't get to actually see that, but just the same.. it is what He actually does.

And God doesn't require for us to "try and be good." That's legalism.. and it is also impossible.
But what does He actually require?
A relationship of living on one's knees.. repentance and forgiveness, as a way of life.
It is SO freeing to admit how ruined I am, and how GREAT He is! His Grace is sufficient.
Think Martha and Mary.
Martha was anxious about many things.. and Mary just sat at His feet, and worshipped Him.
It's what being "In Christ" means.
The good works are only a product of this abiding in Him.. produced by a loving relationship with Him, through the Holy Spirit.

"But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Mt. 19:26

You seek the God of the Bible.
And He is seeking you.

Dale Gaumer| 1.9.11 @ 2:27PM

As an elderly geezer, I remember being a member of the Methodist Youth Fellowship, which replaced the Communist dominated Epworth League. Fortunately, local youth leaders were quite noble role models. More recently, we joined a Presbyterian church. When becoming aware of the nonsense at the national level, I sought the council of one long-time Presbyterian because I saw my choice to either leave the denomination or just ignore the national. He assured me that members of the church had been ignoring the national for 15 years. Sad, really.

Richard Baker| 1.9.11 @ 2:55PM

Margie:
I learned in Catechism years ago that the words in the Bible were, as the priest told us, divinely inspired.

Margie| 1.9.11 @ 4:31PM

Yes, my parents also forced me off to catechism where I learned by rote to repeat after them.

It was a cold, dead Religion which I never accepted. Spiritless and cold.

The Catholic Religion holds the form of Religion, but denies the very Power of it.

Their false teachings are a stumbling block for the thirsty who want to actually know God, or rather be known by Him.

They replace the gospel of Jesus Christ with false doctrine and don't even teach the way to God is Christ, and that each individual must repent of their sin and receive the Holy Spirit according to John 3:3. No, they teach that being saved is by water baptism. It is a lie.

Each person can have a relationship with God through Jesus Christ only and that is when by the Grace of God He saves you and gives you His Holy Spirit.

The Catholic church has been teaching false doctrine since its beginning and has never repented of it.

They may say the Bible is Divinely inspired, but they do not believe it or teach from it. They substitute their own doctrines instead.

Clint| 1.10.11 @ 12:10AM

You're A Fanatic With Mental Problems And One Nasty Ass Ax To Grind Agenda Against The Catholic Church And Any Religion That Doesn't Bow To Your Lock Step Robot Eisegesis Bastardization Of God's Love.
Now Tell All The Practicing Jews, Mormons & Muslims Where You Say They Go When They Die , Joisey White Trash Bigot.

victor| 1.10.11 @ 3:30AM

Now tell us where the practicing pedophile pervert priests go when they die.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 11:31AM

To Mr. Cyber-stalker Tim*/Clint:

"But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him." Rom. 8:9.

"That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." John 3:6.

"And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." Jn. 3:19 & 20.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 1:12PM

P.S. You are taken to doing exactly what the Catholics did to the thousands upon thousands of Bible believing Christians that they put to death.
If you read the historical accounts of those who were Martyred for the "crime" of preaching the true gospel of Jesus Christ, and not the Catholic church's perverted doctrines, they also were accused of "mental insanity".
You are a living, devil filled example of these men.
So be it. You have made your choice.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 1:16PM

For example:
The Papal Persecutions:

http://www.ccel.org/f/foxe/martyrs/fox104.htm

Kansan| 1.9.11 @ 3:52PM

I too did not leave the United Methodist Church, they left me during the Vietnam War. I was 20 and had been a very active member all my life to that point, even before the EUBs (Evangelical United Bretheren) joined John Wesley's The Methodist Church to become the UMC. When the church turned to Socialist from Conservative, I said, 'so long'. Haven't missed it.

tellthetruth| 1.9.11 @ 10:49PM

I assume you've all forgotten these verses.

Matthew 7:1-5 “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you. Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when there is the log in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye.

Luke 6:37 “Judge not, and you will not be judged; condemn not, and you will not be condemned; forgive, and you will be forgiven;

Romans 2:1-3
Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God?

James 4:11-12 Do not speak evil against one another, brothers. The one who speaks against a brother or judges his brother, speaks evil against the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge. There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

Romans 14:1-13 As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

Matthew 7:1-2 “Judge not, that you be not judged. For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you.

Luke 6:31 ESAnd as you wish that others would do to you, do so to them.

HelpfulNot Helpful
John 8:7 ESV / 44 helpful votes
And as they continued to ask him, he stood up and said to them, “Let him who is without sin among you be the first to throw a stone at her.”

Evanston2| 1.10.11 @ 1:42AM

tellthetruth, Nice summary of verses on judgment, but let's see if we can do better. For starters, Matt 7. Why did you stop at verse 5 and neglect 6? Perhaps because our Lord warns us about dogs and pigs? But how, if we are to not "judge" are we to do so? Let's explore further, with your citation of Luke 6. Verse 42 repeats the command from Matt that we remove the speck from our own eyes, but it doesn't say that there is no speck, nor that we should neglect to remove it. No, after repentance of sin we are, ourselves, better able to help others repent of sin. It seems we are still making judgments about sin, aren't we? Verses 43-46 tell us that we can, indeed, judge a person by his/her "fruit" and further, suggest a right standard. Our Lord tells us that if we do not do what He commands, we do not love Him. In Matt 5:17, right in the midst of the Sermon on the Mount, Christ tells us that he came to fulfill the law. In fact, he does not subtract from outward sins but adds our inner motivations as sins (that is, He seemingly creates a higher, harder standard for sin that none of us can meet but abolishes none -- including the sin of homosexuality). Honestly, your citation from Romans 2 has the opposite meaning of the text. You leave out chapter 1:24-32 that specifically condemn homosexuality and many other practices/traits. Isn't Paul "judging" here, contradicting himself? Or isn't it really true, when you read past where you stopped in chapter 2, that verses 4-29 tell us not to be hypocrites when we judge, and to obey the law though it does not justify -- it leads to repentance -- and that it is our heart (inner motivations) that matter with God. In citing James 4, you once again ignore the point. Verses 1-4 are awfully judging, aren't they, for one who asks us not to judge? But that's not what James is saying. He says not to "speak evil." For the reasonable reader, evil means damaging untruth. But your truncation of the text means that we are not to judge anyone, a Hitler, etc. no one even if it is true. This truly makes the Christian an indifferent bystander to evil. Equally so in Eph 4. Read verse 25, please, where we are commanded to "speak the truth" with our neighbors...but instead you take verse 29 and decide that "corrupting talk" means any judgment, yet verse 31 mentions slander and malice. YOU ARE MAKING JUDGMENTS ABOUT "JUDGMENT" WITHOUT READING THE ACTUAL ARGUMENT THAT THE AUTHORS ARE MAKING. Romans 14:1 talks about "opinions" -- not about the moral law. Further, Paul clearly is talking about dietary laws and sabbath days, matters that we know from Acts (and other NT texts) have been invalidated for the church. Your equating these opinions with the binding moral laws that Paul addresses elsewhere in all his letters is, at best, negligence. Finally, you repeat your Matt citation (perhaps cut & paste from another source?) and conclude with John 8:7. Very good, but what about verse 11 where Jesus says "Go and sin no more"? A parallel in John is 5:14. So let me sum it up for you, in what I assert is common sense: the Bible tells us to judge outward behavior but not to presume to judge inner motivations. Further, we cannot judge the ultimate fate of someone (heaven vs. hell) per John 8:14-16: this is reserved for God. Overall, to follow your interpretation of these snippets (the fancy name is "prooftexting") would invalidate any moral judgment whatsoever, that a rapist, murderer, pedophile, thief, etc. are to be treated the same as everyone else because we shouldn't judge. WHO IS REALLY TELLING THE TRUTH HERE, WHO IS REALLY FORGETTING VERSES? Well, it is quite apparent (yes, I am judging here) that you are. What I cannot judge is your motivation, if it is to cover your own sins or out of a need to stress that that Christians should be kind and loving, or something else. In that respect, God will most certainly judge all of us and I rely on Christ's payment for my sins because I know that a minute doesn't pass in my life without one.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 11:34AM

Well said.
And what "Tell the Truth" actually did was came in with a sweeping "judgment" of us all.

somnolence| 1.9.11 @ 11:44PM

Thank you, Tell The Truth. You took time out to certainly spell out everything in detail that I've been observing in several of these posts. The one person in kind seemed to be upset that he was mocking me after I tried to bring up beware of judging.

Rick Allsup| 1.10.11 @ 6:14AM

Mark Tooley certainly peeked interest. And thanks for the discussion. Somewhere in there is the truth. I am concerned that distortions abound, solely for the purpose of pride. Mr. Tooley can not be excluded. He exaggerates to feather his cap, don't we all. I don't think this is as simple as we would like for it to be. I think the question is larger than us. What would Jesus do? I'm certainly not in a postion to know. I wish I could. Like all in this blog I will try (big mistake). I think he would do what the UMC is doing. They would do so because their role is not governance but to attend the weak and oppressed, to build faith and love. Easy for Jesus. Not so easy for us.

Richard Baker| 1.10.11 @ 9:44AM

Rick:
The problem with the United Methodist Church is that their focus is of this world and not elsewhere. The numbers fleeing the denomination tell the tale.

TxPastor| 1.11.11 @ 1:09AM

I must agree Richard at least as a whole the UMC has lost focus. Christians must focus on falling in love with God and we do the by attending to the ordinances of God: worship, preaching, communion, prayer, Bible study and fasting. This is Wesley's teaching.
Yes, Wesley did and encouraged social outreach. It was because of a love for the Lord. This is being lost in the UMC. 1 Cor 13:1 "...without love I am but a clanging gong." The much of the UMC in the U.S. has lost this love and spirituality.

Josh| 1.10.11 @ 10:27AM

I am seeing a lot of hate, anger, and vitrol being thrown about between various denominations. Far too many people are being called "bigots" or "judgmental" or far worse. Everyone needs to just calm down. I'd like to make a few points if I can...

1) Each Christian denomination has a few little differences when it comes to doctrine. Some of these differences are fairly insignificant and have nothing to do with the Gospel or salvation. But some of these differences are extremely important and should be discussed. Just because we may disagree doesn't mean we can't be civil with one another.

2) Please do not bring up Westboro Baptist Church. That group is made up of one man along with his own family and a few friends. That's it. They do not represent Baptists, and they certainly do not represent Christians. They are nothing more than a kooky fringe cult.

3) I consider myself to simply be a Christian. I attend a baptist church, but I am not a "Baptist." I'm just a Christian. Whether you attend a Methodist, Lutheran, Baptist, Catholic, Presbeterian, or whatever kind of church, if you believe that you have been saved by grace through faith in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, then you hopefully consider yourself simply a "Christian" as well.

4) As the author of this article states, just because the governing body of a denomiation teaches or supports something, that doesn't mean all members of that church do as well. Not all Methodists are ultra-left wing advocates of social justice. Not all Baptists are Bible-thumping jerks. Although the official doctrine of the Catholic Church may contain doctrines that point to a belief in salvation by works, not all Catholics share these beliefs. And please PLEASE stop accusing all priests of being pedophiles. You know that isn't the case.

5) Finally, while Jesus instructed us not to be judgmental or hypocritical, he also wants us to hold strong to the Truth, to know evil and sin when we see it, and to hold ourselves and others accountable. Yes, Jesus was a friend to prostitutes, tax collecters, and other sinners. He was kind and loving to them. But what else did He say to them? He said, "Go and sin no more."

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 1:00PM

Very cute there Josh.. in your preaching of supposed love, you called Baptists Bible thumping jerks, while excusing pedophile priests.
Way to go.
An you also falsely accused someone of calling ALL priests pedophiles, which is also untrue.
And God's truth is that unless you are born of His Spirit, see John 3:3, you cannot enter His Kingdom. Belonging to a church does not equal belonging to Christ.
As it is written:
"Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him." Rom. 8:9.

RCV| 1.10.11 @ 2:13PM

Very powerful and truthful post, Josh. Well said.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 4:00PM

And you have a friend in RCV for so doing.

RCV| 1.10.11 @ 4:44PM

That he does, as do all people of good will.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 5:12PM

Indeed, if the good will is based in God's Truth.

Josh| 1.10.11 @ 5:30PM

Margie,

I did not call Baptists bible-thimping jerks. As I said, I myself go to a baptist church. I was merely responding to the stereotypes and the insults that have been thrown around this forum. People have insulted Baptists, Catholics, and Methodists alike. I'm just saying that hurling insults is unproductive and often involves massive generalization.

Personally, I have some theological disputes with the Catholic Church, and I think they are mistaken on many point. But that doesn't mean I'm going to insult and hate Catholics. I can engage in civil discussion with them on doctrine just as I can with you.

But you are right on one point. As the great Keith Green once said, "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than going to McDonald's makes you a hamburger."

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 7:58PM

"But that doesn't mean I'm going to insult and hate Catholics."

If you are saying that's what I'm doing then you just placed yourself in with RCV and the despicable Clint/Tim*.

Speaking the truth isn't hate. I call a snake a snake.
So did Christ.
There is no civil debate with some, just a sheer defending of the gospel.

And you did indeed say Bible thumping jerks in a complete sentence, and meant it. If you want to take it back, fine. Not my problem.

Josh| 1.11.11 @ 9:48AM

I did indeed use the phrase "Bible thumping jerks" in a complete sentence. But look at the context. You should actually READ my previous post. As I said, I was responding to the stereotypes and the insults that have been thrown around this forum. Baptists have been called names, Catholics have been called names, and Methodists have been called names. I'm only referencing the insults that have already been used to make a point.

Are there Methodists who are flaming liberals who support social justice? Yes, of course. But there are also Methodists who are Bible-believing conservatives. I know, because I married one.

Are there Baptists who spend all their time yelling at people and trying to pound nonbelievers over the head with the Bible? Yes, of course. But there are also Baptists who know how to speak the Truth in love without coming off like jerks. I know because I go to a Baptist church, and my pastor, my family, and my friends all do their best to speak the truth to others without being pushy or rude.

Margie, I understand what you're trying to say. The Truth is always important. But you just called someone "despicable." Do you think that is a helpful or loving thing for a Christain to do?

Josh| 1.10.11 @ 10:31AM

By the way, Evanston2, your post is dead on. Well said.

Evanston2| 1.10.11 @ 11:04PM

Josh, Thanks. Though I've obviously made a lot of comments here, I hope you're referring to my response to "tellthetruth" regarding judgment. I tried to let the Word speak for itself and hopefully did not twist it in any way.

Scott| 1.10.11 @ 11:02AM

Our family left the UMC last year. After battles over illegal immigration, then the UMC role in the health care debate. At which point I directed my tithe to only go to local based activites. The final straw was the UMC co-sponsoring the Jon Stewart sanity rally that was also co-sponsored by the Communist Party USA, the Democratic Socliaists of America, and many other nefarious organizations.

To me it is this simply... the UMC is following manly commandmants and have abandoned Godly commandments.

The challenge has been this... many churches/denominations are similar to the UMC.

Lily| 1.10.11 @ 11:06AM

How religions are messy and confused is a comment on the current state of affairs in our country. No one knows how to solve problems with our society and everyone has an emotional reaction to social ills. There's a lot of people right now guilty of burrying their heads in the sand because they cannot even tolerate the discourse, if that's what you want to call it. Every aspect of life (that has a corresponding department in federal, state and often local government) is in shambles. We need to have our churches rise up out of the political fray, not become part of it, for it is folly, as evidenced by the aforementioned "departments". We need to be less emotional and more rational, less sentimental and more pragmatic, less wistful and more systematic and then take problems and find solutions. I find the best way to start problem solving is to take an honest inventory of one self and be willing to take personal responsibility in all matters of one's life. Expecting the government to take on all these aspects of our life, our personal life, is such a moral copout. Yet, our population in great numbers cheers that on in a big way!! History gave us a lesson once, we have successfully ignored it and are therefore going to be gullible enough to fall for tyranny, due to our laziness and unwillingness to take that personal responsibility. Collectives, communism, socialism, totalitarianism, dictatorships, Marxism, state capitalism, utopianism, Maoism, and other terms meaning essentially the same thing are grasped at by people who have short attention spans. But how they love to cop out.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 12:31PM

Lily,

What you've said has so much truth in it. And Religions being messed up as you put it is the core reason why every other thing among Christianity is messed, and that's because they have strayed from what the Bible actually teaches.
There ought not be denominations at all, which are nothing but divisions with each one separating off into their own teachings. It is mass confusion and not God's will.
In the Bible He tells us to be of one mind. If He tells us to be of one mind, then that is exactly what He means.

"complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind." Phil 2:2.

"Only let your manner of life be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of you that you stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the gospel.." Phil 1:27.

This simply can not be with the division of denominations. But that's how it is, sadly. And so you have others cursing those of us who speak the truth of what God actually says, and yet they call themselves Christian!

And if the Christians, so called, who refuse to live according to what the Bible actually says and not the teachings of men are at war with those who insist on the Bible all of this is utter chaos and yes it does spill over into the politics of the day.

When Jesus said, "Apart from Me you can do nothing." Jn. 15:5.
He meant it.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 12:38PM

should read: those who refuse to live acc. to what the Bible actually says and live by the teachings of men, are at war with those who insist on the Bible.

Richard Baker| 1.10.11 @ 11:28AM

Margie:
Sorry you found the Catholic Church not to your liking. Please, dear lady, let's not ignite a Holy War over this, shall we?

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 12:14PM

Mr. Baker:

It IS war. And you are in it, as are we all.
Don't you understand that false teachers are deceiving millions of people with false doctrine?
I do know, as does every Bible believing Christian that has the Spirit of God.
When the subject comes up,in an open forum and I can see that they are believing a lie, it is my duty and my right as a Christian to say what I know to be the Biblical truth. It is exactly what Christ did, and exactly what I will always do.

"Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin."
James 4:17.

somnolence| 1.10.11 @ 11:41AM

No, Evanston2, just like the Bible, is still full of contradictions. I take my judgement, I'll take my chances with my judgement, I'll continue to employ faith, heart, and conscience to living my humble life as best I can. Like I say, the Lord will direct me in these endeavors; not any mere mortal , including Evanston2 posting on this page. But hey, thanks for your well-intentioned help anyway.

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 12:45PM

somnolence,
The Bible is full of SEEMINGLY contradictions.
It is in fact 100% true and not contradictory at all.

When you pray.. to God through Christ the only Mediator between man and God (as it is written), He will give you His Holy Spirit, and then you will have eyes to see.

God says that we're in spiritual darkness until then.
The verses I gave to you above show what God actually says. He says that you need to be born of His Spirit in order to enter into His Kingdom, because only those that are able to "see" it.

"Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Jn. 3:3.

It really is true as I and Evanston2 and millions of other Christians can attest to the world over.

Evanston2 speaks God's truth to you. What he's saying comes from the Bible.

This is the love that God has, it is to speak the truth and not lies, and it's what God wants Christians to do. It isn't hate, but actually love.

RCV| 1.10.11 @ 2:27PM

Best wishes to you on your journey, Somnolence. You are doing exactly what God wants all of us to do. Live iwth faith, heart and humbleness, and trust in God.

Cissy| 1.10.11 @ 3:49PM

Any church can be infiltrated by those who wish to bring down true Christianity. Know that this is what is going on.

Stay faithful and steadfast and fight for what is Christ's teachings.

Pray that God's Will will be done and pray for your enemies!

Richard Baker| 1.10.11 @ 5:12PM

Margie:
Do you intend then to ignite said Holy War? Look at the history regarding such events. Did it further God's purpose or hinder it? I understand the meaning of the hymn "Onward, Christian Soldiers" but incessant badgering serves no useful purpose except to give those you intend to reach a reason to avoid the Truth. Didn't Jesus say that His yoke was easy and His burden light? Pounding at people will not advance His agenda, yes?

Margie| 1.10.11 @ 7:50PM

Uh, how about instead of hounding me you take a stand on biblical truth instead, Richard?
How come you stand by and say nothing at the lies and filth spewed out at me by your fellow Catholic haters here? You know who they are.
If its one thing I despise is self-righteous Catholics like yourself who sit back and throw stones at those of us who care to defend the truth.
You call it pounding. They call it hate.
Hypocrite.

Pelligrino| 1.11.11 @ 2:07AM

Margie, I appreciate your posts. I do. Particularly all the nice ones here where you share Scripture. Good for you!

Pay no attention to R. Baker. I have just recently learned in another Am. Spectator article/blog how utterly lost his reasoning is. Very sad. But he is more than old enough to know better.

Thanks for the verses. Psalm 111:10. Right on.

Tom in Michigan| 1.10.11 @ 5:16PM

The Methodist Church of my youth was staunchly conservative or, perhaps it was just OUR church. We were taught to love God and our fellow man at the same time we were taught to love our great nation. Nothing negative was ever said about America though we considered improving her an American obligation. When we marched for civil rights; we marched for America not against her.

Sadly though, I've left the Methodist Church due to its decline into social liberalism. I believe in Christian tolerance and loving the sinner while hating the sin but, I can't be a part of any organization that spreads falsehood in the name of God.

Remember all, the left set out to complete a "march through the institutions," following the teachings of Antonio Gramsci who taught seizing political power meant achieving "cultural hegemony," or control of society's intellectual life by cultural means. His was an incremental, rather than an apocalyptic, revolution-the kind that we have been witnessing in the United States, and the Western world generally, since the 1960s. The leaders of that 1960s movement now occupy our Congress and the White House. They sit on the Supreme Court as well in the persons of Sotomayor, Ginsbergand Kagan. One of their worst is the erstwhile Speaker of the House of Representatives. Another of the worst-of-the-worst, the former terrorist and unrepentant killer, Bill Ayers is a close, personal friend of the President of the United States, the latter's denial notwithstanding.

Following Gramsci, the prog-leftists know that Christianity remained the greatest obstacle to their total victory in the culture war. "The civilized world had been thoroughly saturated with Christianity for 2000 years," Gramsci wrote; something, he insisted, had to be done about that, and something has. The de-Christianizing of America and the West that he advocated is by now well underway. Look how Christians are routinely vilified by the corrupt, leftist media. Remember the idiotic statements of people like Rosie O'Donnell who averred on-air, that "radical Christians (by which she meant conservative Christians) are just as dangerous as radical Muslims" as if Christians had murdered over 3,000 innocents on September 11.

You can really see this in Europe. I took a foot-tour of Brussells in October 2010. When I commented on the many cathedrals, my Belgian friend told me; "They're mostly empty now. Nobody goes to these churches." I stayed in a small town in Germany in early November where the church in the town square, once the center of cultural life was turned into a cafe. Arising early one morning to go to a marvelous bakery I'd seen the day before, I was shocked to see almost every early-riser out and about at that time was a Muslim. Virtually all the kiosks set up on the Hochstrasse were occupied by Muslim vendors. One of my German friends told me that town "lost" meaning it was now a Muslim enclave virtually devoid of Germans (I had picked my small, boutique hotel at random not realizing I'd feel more like I was in Beirut or Damascus than the small German villiage I imagined when planning my trip).

With this in mind, we ought not to treat the contemporary "culture war" lightly; the fate of what remains of civilized life may well be decided by its outcome.

We must drive the left from all our institutions, including the churches. The left is not a "loyal opposition." They are the enemies of our culture and indeed of our nation. When you vote for a leftist, you are driving yet one more nail into our national coffin. Reject the left now and forever.

Gary Ogletree| 1.10.11 @ 6:50PM

My brother and I went to Sunday School at the Methodist Church because it was two blocks closer than the Baptist. I was thankful for that because the Baptists seemed to be guilty about having fun, such as dancing. And we had an excellent pastor and congregation. I became a conservative Buddhist but I am glad l was taught the Old Testament and the Gospel. It's our heritage and culture. People will find their own way through this time of spiritual confusion. Americans are born with the right to be stupid. Abortion is murder and that fact will turn the best and brightest away from liberal churches. It's already happening.

somnolence| 1.10.11 @ 9:24PM

Evanston2, I can assure you that I will sleep very soundly tonight knowing that Rome might find my position about the Bible heretical. And no, I'm not Catholic or Jewish, and I'm not inclined to join either of those faiths, although like many faiths I admire some of their stances, and deplore others. Thanks for suggesting I change my name, but ultimately, THANK GOD, that's not up to you; although you continue to be adamant that it is.

somnolence| 1.10.11 @ 9:24PM

Evanston2, I can assure you that I will sleep very soundly tonight knowing that Rome might find my position about the Bible heretical. And no, I'm not Catholic or Jewish, and I'm not inclined to join either of those faiths, although like many faiths I admire some of their stances, and deplore others. Thanks for suggesting I change my name, but ultimately, THANK GOD, that's not up to you; although you continue to be adamant that it is.

Evanston2| 1.10.11 @ 11:22PM

somnolence, Regarding the name change, I meant to encourage you to continue wrestling with these topics. I'm not sure what you mean by "THANK GOD, that's not up to you." The name change I mentioned was done by God (as He also did for Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, Simon to Peter, and Saul of Tarsus to Paul) as they became men of Biblical faith. In my comments to you I've tried to focus on your desire to have a seemingly Bible-free "faith." The ultimate judgment, as I said in my lengthy reply to the Bible snippets posted by "tellthetruth" is definitely God's. So I again hope you surf the web and read about alleged contradictions in the Bible, etc. I may be adamant about this, but I gave up (my version of) christianity at age 19 (due to a college course on christianity) and was changed by God at 38. I was very skeptical (and am so, by nature) and wrestled with the content of the Bible. It is truly amazing stuff.

Inside| 1.10.11 @ 10:06PM

As someone who is employed by an agency of the UMC, it seems there is an ivory tower mentality among the leadership of that denomination, who seem intent on promoting a politically-correct agenda based on "social justice" (whatever that means). In fact, their stated goal is "the transformation of the world", which begs the question "into what?"

Evanston2| 1.10.11 @ 11:25PM

Inside, Perhaps they're trying to "immanentize the Eschaton!" Have fun Googling around on that topic...

Don Ellenberger| 1.11.11 @ 12:40AM

It grieves me to know that one penny of my church donation goes to support the General Board of Church & Society, & the other liberal church agencies that can't tell the difference between poliltics & religion. If there were a local 'stand-alone', I would join it. I would like
to see Mr. Toomey lead the charge to split the disunited church down the middle. At half our size, we could get so much more work done for traditional values, rather than spinning our wheels fighting one another.

Don Ellenberger| 1.11.11 @ 12:40AM

It grieves me to know that one penny of my church donation goes to support the General Board of Church & Society, & the other liberal church agencies that can't tell the difference between poliltics & religion. If there were a local 'stand-alone', I would join it. I would like
to see Mr. Toomey lead the charge to split the disunited church down the middle. At half our size, we could get so much more work done for traditional values, rather than spinning our wheels fighting one another.

Judith| 1.11.11 @ 2:09AM

Did I miss any comments about the Episcopal church? I was baptized as a Missouri Synod Lutheran and studied cathacisim (sp), became a Methodist during high school, in my twenties joined Disciples of Christ, and when I moved to Missouri I could not stand the "halleluing and stranger hugging" so I sought out the Episcopal church. Great, loved the pomp and circumstance, but especially the solemnity. Took my boy to church and he loved it also. Then came the revolution and all the radical changes and politics. We had to drop a lot of the most beautiful parts of the service in order to be politically correct. We supported domestic terrorists and whomever else the Bible maintained was in error of their ways. Some of you also know that the pastor in the Episcopal church is addressed as Father. The straw that broke the camel's back was the letter that indicated I was to call the new assistant pastor "Mother". Now churchless but looking.

Evanston2| 1.12.11 @ 12:49PM

Judith, I expect nearly everyone posting here (no matter where they ended up) bounced around among churches. They definitely change. It may seem counter to logic, but I believe your best hope for a stable church is an independent one. Look at their constitution/doctrine, find out who the Elders are (or how it is governed), and your biggest clue to their core beliefs is if they've ever kicked anyone out (hopefully following stages set out in Matt 18:15-17) and why. Denominational leadership is distant, often unaccountable (Presbyterianism, despite its claims to democracy, is actually rigged by the ministers), and when a doctrine is dropped they don't tell you. They just let the dust gather on the doctrine (such as the Creeds) and again, you see what they truly care about by how & why they'll remove a minister or member. In an independent church (which includes southern baptists, which are a "convention" in belief but are independent in government) you can just ask a pastor about "church discipline" and you'll find out what they stand for. FYI, I am not a baptist. I attend an independent church, though, after having been burned like you by denominations that become apostate. Despite what I said above, LCMS doesn't seem bad doctrinally, and if you like ceremony it may fit (again, find out about if/when a particular church disciplines ministers/members). Persevere!

Paul E. Dorsey| 6.5.11 @ 10:22PM

Why on earth are conservative religious leaders so oppossed to embracing Christian inclusiveness and love for all of God' s people. The United Methodist progressives should be applauded for standing up for religious tolerance and following the teachings of Jesus Christ who loved everyone unconditionally!!! I am a gay and loving Episcopalian and I know that God loves me for who and what I am and I hope that the UMC will not be intolerant and hateful towards people like me who weren't given a choice as to if they wanted to be gay but were born gay. The United States is full of hate and bigatry much of it coming from religious people who are unwilling to reach out to those they disagree with and have precon-
ceived notions that are so unfounded!!! I find it very discouraging that people of my faith are leaving but hopefully in time, younger people who are much more tolerant than their parents, will find a home in the Episcopal Church.

Adidas| 8.11.11 @ 5:56AM

is good

Rev. Denis Hawkey| 1.12.12 @ 8:20PM

Well, thank goodness for Hans Christian Anderson's tale of the King who was wearing no clothes. Thanks to God also for the United Methodist Church who is prepared to say what is of Christ Jesus rather than just cultural attitudes of a so called democracy. The Chricstian movement is one that is called to put patriotism well behind the Justice, liberation and Life for all standards of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus sufferred and died for his high standards and if Methodists have to suffer and perhaps even die for the same standards I shall bravely, please God, stand with them.

العاب بنات| 4.10.12 @ 12:24PM

Yes, by all means, do your own research. Purchase a copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs.