The American Spectator : Let's Ban Ivy League ROTC

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Let’s Ban Ivy League ROTC

By Jed Babbin on 1.3.11 @ 6:08AM

Our military can remain the best on the planet without its precious help.

Like the poor, those who hate the military will always be with us. In days of the Vietnam War, a lot of them chose to protest rather than learn, forcing the closure of classes so that they could use their colleges as stages to protest the war and the draft that threatened their comfortable existence. Too many of those who despise the military — the protesters of the 1960s and their progeny — have succeeded in taking over the faculties and administrations of some “elite” schools and thus can dominate the minds of their students.

Now that the 1993 “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” law prohibiting homosexuals from openly serving in the military has been repealed, some Serious People are pondering loudly if ROTC should be permitted back on campus. They pose all sorts of Important Questions, asking straight-facedly whether the military’s warrior ethic should be allowed to taint the “intellectual purity” of academia.

First, let’s set the record straight. Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Dartmouth, Brown, and Columbia — and pretty much all the rest of the Ivies — tossed ROTC out not in response to the DADT law, but back in about 1969 at the height of the Vietnam antiwar protests. They latched on to the DADT law only as an excuse to continue their exclusion of the military after the enactment of the Solomon Amendment in 1996 threatened their federal grant money. (Rep. Gerald Solomon’s law prohibits those colleges that ban ROTC and refuse to grant military recruiters access to their students from receiving federal grants which, in the case of many of these colleges, amounts to tens of millions of dollars a year. It’s never been enforced, more is the pity.)

But the Serious People are asking the wrong question. The right question is this: Is it in the military’s best interest to invest time and money to recruit and train young officers from among the denizens of the Ivy League? In short, it isn’t.

Why would the military want to go to the expense and effort of establishing ROTC detachments at the Ivies where they are still unwelcome? Is it because the Ivy League students are so superior to everyone else that their intelligence and morals are essential to the military’s success? That’s what the Ivies, in their solipsism, want us to believe.

Only four years ago, when Yale allowed former Taliban spokesman Rahmatullah Hashemi to attend classes as a student (while still maintaining its ban on ROTC), I was guest-hosting a radio show and invited Yale President Dr. Richard Levin to come on the air to explain the college’s position. Levin demurred, of course, but his flack sent an e-mail which is a perfect example of that solipsism. Part of the e-mail she sent stated, “While Yale does not host an ROTC program, the University does support those who wish to make such a commitment and we believe that the leadership these students provide is vital to our military.”

Can you imagine our Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force without Ivy Leaguers in command? Well, yes. Banning ROTC at the Ivies is as damaging to the military as banning recruitment at Vassar would be to the NFL.

For four decades, we’ve managed pretty well despite the lack of ROTC at the Ivies. Our military — by all accounts, even those rendered by hyperliberals such as our president — is the best on the planet. Some of my best friends are Yalies, but it’s absurd to say that the military would be measurably better were there bunches of youthful officers coming out of New Haven. Would they be good men and women? Probably. But would they be better than those coming out of the service academies and the nearly 500 colleges and universities that have ROTC?

No, and they’d likely be worse. The following paragraph is intended for young Americans between the ages of 12 and 17. No one else has permission to read it.

Okay, folks. Listen up. There are thousands of great colleges around the nation at which you can learn any skill or profession you choose. And in none of those colleges will you be so indoctrinated in contempt for your nation, its history and values as you will be in the Ivies. Give yourself a boost in life: for all the supposed benefits you’d get in an Ivy League school, you’ll learn more and gain a more realistic view of your nation and the world if you attend a college that’s not among the Ivies. Learn elsewhere, and graduate without having your nose so stuck in the air that you believe America isn’t a force for good in the world. And trust me, guys: chicks dig the uniform, regardless of which college you graduated from.

We have no shortage of officers, so why would the military impose ROTC on any college that doesn’t want it? And the strings that the Ivies want to impose — not granting faculty status to ROTC instructors, refusing college credit for ROTC courses — don’t stand up to the slightest scrutiny.

Antiwar hacks such as the Washington Post’s Colman McCarthy say that ROTC taints the “intellectual purity” of the schools, and insist that ROTC isn’t worth academic credit because the courses don’t meet academic requirements. Really? Do the Ivy League courses on “women’s studies,” “gay and lesbian studies” and such — all of which teach political views, not history or sociology — have more academic rigor than studying, as I did in Air Force ROTC, the history of air war and why civilian control of the military is essential to maintaining democracy?

The “academic standards” contention is risible. The Ivies indoctrinate their students in a left-wing ideology that will make their students’ service in the military difficult for the young officers and all with whom they serve.

The best young officers are those who are well rounded in their academic and athletic training and their off-campus experiences. People such as they aren’t likely to graduate from an Ivy League school where the unreconstructed hippies of the 1960s dominate the faculty and teach a political ideology that disdains America.

According to a Boston Globe report, only one Harvard freshman has joined Army ROTC in the past two years. That young man has to travel to MIT to take ROTC classes. People such as he should be welcomed into the military, not shunned. But — for that reason and the others I’ve already described — it’s clearly not worth the military’s time and money to establish ROTC at Harvard or any of the other schools that now ban it.

The Solomon Amendment should be enforced. Allow military recruiters on campus with effective access to students, and those who seek a military career can still enlist in ROTC programs at the more than 2,400 colleges and universities that host ROTC students from other schools.

And lest we be misunderstood, let’s say it one more time: Ivies, we don’t need you, and until you rejoin America, we don’t want you. Capiche?

About the Author

Jed Babbin served as a Deputy Undersecretary of Defense under George H.W. Bush. He is the author of several bestselling books including Inside the Asylum and In the Words of Our Enemies. You can follow him on Twitter @jedbabbin.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (192) | Leave a comment Leave a comment

Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 1.3.11 @ 6:20AM

You're a real trouble maker aren't you? We need to clone you.

Bob K.| 1.3.11 @ 1:41PM

Not a bad idea!

And while we are at it we should also ban them from giving those bribes in the form of easy PhDs to those elite Officers from the Academies who use them to advance high up in the Military Bureauocracy and who ultimately have favors to return to the Ivy League Schools they got them from! Somehow guys like Petraeus and Sestak come to mind here.

Paul D| 1.3.11 @ 5:32PM

Bob K.

You hit the nail on the head. "Bribes" is exactly what they are. It is sad that so many senior officers go to the Ivies for these "abbreviated" degree programs, in pursuit of the credential, and never realize that all the schools are trying to do is co-opt them.

Clint| 1.3.11 @ 6:40AM

Some of the best combat field officers were & are Mustangs.

MoeBlotz| 1.3.11 @ 7:12AM

Clint,you have given me an idea for an analogy. Our commander in chief is quite like the south end of a northbound mustang.

Clint| 1.3.11 @ 7:26AM

And this sorry excuse for Our CinC is what comes out of the south end of a northbound mustang.

Jane| 1.4.11 @ 10:28AM

Why are you so insulting to mustangs? I thought they were pretty capable and strong?

Robert Pinkerton| 1.3.11 @ 7:27AM

Although I hang my patriotism on many "pegs," the two strongest are the common equal citizen's right to arms, and the existence of the Mustang officer in the armed forces. Both positions are absolutely anti-"aristocratic," because part of this country's exceptionalism is the fact that the privileges of "aristocracy" in Europe are the ordinary civil rights of common equals here.

mzk1| 1.4.11 @ 5:01PM

Was Colin Powell a Mustang? I had the impression he came through OCS.

Richard Connors| 1.3.11 @ 3:24PM

I was going to say pretty much the same thing when I saw your comment. I was a 'mustang' and did a fair job of flying dustoff/medevac in RVN. I never met an aviator who had matriculated from an ivy league school - thank goodness.

FktButanol| 1.3.11 @ 6:15PM

Depends on the definition of Mustang, I suppose. If you mean former enlisted, there are a few around, but most field-grade officers are from the service academies.

Ted| 1.4.11 @ 11:11AM

Au contraire, my friend. Most Field Grades (Major, Lt. Colonel, and Colonel) are from ROTC (at least in the Army).

Dan| 1.5.11 @ 5:31PM

Ted has it right and if you look at schools that have and support all 3 branches of ROTC you will find Field Grades in every service and many @ Flag rank. Go Irish!

Intelligent Design| 1.3.11 @ 6:48AM

"Rep. Gerald Solomon's law prohibits those colleges that ban ROTC and refuse to grant military recruiters access to their students from receiving federal grants which, in the case of many of these colleges, amounts to tens of millions of dollars a year. It's never been enforced, more is the pity."

The rule of law is threatened by selective enforcement. This is also illustrated by Obama's selective waivers of Obamacare requirements. If the dictator and the bureaucrats at DOJ have the power to overrule Congress, then we no longer have freedom. The Constitution has been repealed.

In any case, all federal subsidies or grants to colleges should be eliminated. In fact, the federal Department of Education should be abolished.

John Navratil| 1.3.11 @ 10:01AM

Spot on!

LiveFreeOrDie| 1.3.11 @ 11:29AM

"The rule of law is threatened by selective enforcement. This is also illustrated by Obama's selective waivers of Obamacare requirements. If the dictator and the bureaucrats at DOJ have the power to overrule Congress, then we no longer have freedom. "

Well said, and very unfortunate.

ChurchSox| 1.3.11 @ 11:38AM

Can the Solomon Amendment be enforced retroactively?

Pelligrino| 1.4.11 @ 11:32PM

ChruchSox, YOU have the post of the day! Superb! I would love to see it. Yes, indeed! And, because we need a sharp mind to get this rolling, you, sir, are in charge!

Make 'em all pay it back!

Old Soldier| 1.3.11 @ 12:12PM

Yes! Stop using Federal money as a crudgel. Just stop giving it to anyone.

Pavel205| 1.3.11 @ 8:00PM

There ya go! The ONLY subsidy to any college or university should be based on ROTC participation with full accreditation for the courses offerred.

mzk1| 1.4.11 @ 5:03PM

And zero money for any course in a department with "Studies" in it. Pro-rate it.

John Daniel| 1.3.11 @ 7:41AM

ROTC, as with real America, has headed South. New Englanders were seriosly talking secession in the Hartford Convention of 1814. It's time we let them and their U's go.

FOWG| 1.3.11 @ 5:20PM

As a Massachusetts man currently living in Rhode Island. I have to agree. These areas are totally out of hand.

Ken (Old Texican)| 1.3.11 @ 8:06AM

Jed,
For years, every successful "insurance salesman" busted his butt to get his kid into and through an Ivy school.
One overwhelming reason: To get him invited into the "ruling class" through friendships formed there.
Accept that as your starting point and you have a cornucopia of material for future columns.

scboy| 1.3.11 @ 8:33AM

The affirmative action huge mistake in chief should serve as ample reason why we should refuse ivies and their ilk ROTC units and all grants. This is not the leader our military needs.

Teflon93| 1.3.11 @ 8:34AM

Nothing comes out of the Ivies but socialism and sh*t.

But I repeat myself.

ScurvyOaks| 1.3.11 @ 4:53PM

I'm a liberty-loving conservative with an appropriately high regard for our armed forces. I'm also a graduate of Princeton and Harvard Law School. Go pound sand.

Teflon93| 1.3.11 @ 8:23PM

I'm a service academy grad and vet. Go pound sand yourself---presuming you don't hire it out.

Ben| 1.4.11 @ 9:42AM

If true, you merely demonstrate that socialism isn't an incurable disorder, not that your Ivy experience made you better. But I suspect that your concept of "conservative" and "appropriately high" have been thoroughly skewed by your Ivy years. What passes for conservative on Ivy campuses is slightly left of center in the real world outside the ivory tower.

Ted| 1.4.11 @ 11:13AM

I am glad to hear that at least one thing good came out of Princeton and Harvard Law... However, you are an outlier (on the good side). For every one like you, there are 100 that are anti-liberty, anti-military, and leftist that come from the Ivies.

will| 1.4.11 @ 12:18PM

your a rare one you are.

dan| 1.5.11 @ 5:39PM

Great to hear that there are still afew conservatives at the Ivy's but sad that they are a fast fading minority....
Oh - you said a grad of Harvard Law. That explains it. First thing that every Lawyer learns is that you can't tell the truth...

Louis Jenkins| 1.3.11 @ 8:45AM

All of the talk about Ivy League Schools makes me want to vomit. The truth is Sgts. run the services. If those Ivy Leaguers don't want to play then enforce Solomons Law. Harvard has so much money now they could make their education free to all students who enrole. It would be a step in the right direction.

mzk1| 1.4.11 @ 5:06PM

They were basically goingto do that, before the recession hit and they got into serious economic trouble (but not serious enough).

Lullabys, Legends and Lies| 1.3.11 @ 8:51AM

They Banned Ivy League ROTC on 01 January 2011, and the World turned around, and sun came back up, and the Children still laughed and played (except in New York City, but that's only because they're still digging out from the snowstorm), and the U.S. Military didn't notice a thing !! So is West Point still open? Oh, it is? Well then, we won't have a hard time filling those high level Officer positions in the future then. Seriously we don't need them if they don't want to be here, we need Soldiers who "want" to be here, Soldiers who believe it's their duty to serve, we don't need Soldiers who think serving is below their high IQ. Just ask John Kerry, he figured us out years ago!!

James| 1.3.11 @ 9:54AM

Uh, can we hold on here a minute? I've actually read the coverage on the Ivies coming out from under DADT to reconsider ROTC. Several are indicating they will invite units. Commenter was totally correct that Ivies abandoned ROTC over Vietnam, but that doesn't change the fact that DADT did present a real problem of principle in some long arguments over reinstatement. (You may think the principle is ridiculous, moronic or ignorant, of course, but let's remember that the principle was not "Let's hate America and the military," it was "Let's not discriminate against gays." Now that DADT is passing from the scene, you've in fact got Ivy presidents going into print saying they want ROTC on their campuses. Let's see, that seems to me a little different than some way of saying "we didn't really give a &^%$ about DADT, we just hated America." Resent the Ivies all you want, but how is denying them ROTC units a step forward toward reestablishing authentic American patriotism at these schools, which do in fact attract a fantastically high-achieving, hard-working group of top high school students? Hello? Earth to conservatives. I'd like nothing better than to see terrific ROTC units on these campuses as a model and an example. By the way, if you actually knew something about these places, you'd know they're already attracting a lot of conservative students who have real voices. Check out the Yale Political Union at www.yale.edu/ypu. It's the most active political stomping ground on any Ivy campusm, and four of the seven parties that students join are conservative: Federalist, Conservative, Tory and Party of the Right. You might also want to check out the fall debate schedule at the YPU, which you can find at www.yale.edu/ypu/schedule.html. You could be surprised at the topics and the speakers, including Karl Rove as well as Michael Tanner of CATO. Bottom line: by all means get the U.S. military back into the Ivies and do it asap. And excuse me for interrupting the commentary on Babbin's rant, which I expect will resume immediately with another round of insults re: the Ivies.

Ken (Old Texican)| 1.3.11 @ 10:02AM

James,
Thanks for the insight. Thanks for the counter-point.

John Navratil| 1.3.11 @ 10:16AM

-- "you've in fact got Ivy presidents going into print saying they want ROTC on their campuses" --

I'd like to see that in context. I'm not saying the words haven't been uttered, but that is a far cry from saying that now the odious DADT is gone they are renewing their ties with the military ROTC programs.

-- "how is denying them ROTC units a step forward toward reestablishing authentic American patriotism at these schools" --

Did someone suggest denying ROTC to the Ivy campuses? I believe the question of cost effectiveness of pursuing officers in a hostile environment when there are plenty officers of fine qualification available. In all your praise of the Ivy's, does is seem ironic to suggest the ROTC is required to re-establish "authentic American patriotism at these schools".

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. When the Ivy's invite ROTC back on campus, I'm sure they will go.

bogdog| 1.3.11 @ 11:02AM

Harvard University President Drew Gilpin Faust promised in a November joint appearance with Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm. Mike Mullen at the school's Institute of Politics that the Reserve Officer Training Corps (ROTC) programs would return to Harvard once the Don't Ask law was repealed.

At Yale University, College Dean Mary Miller told the student-run Yale Daily News Saturday: "We're very excited and pleased with today's results. This [decision in Congress] allows us to make the recommendations we wanted to make" to allow ROTC programs to return to the Yale campus for the first time since 1969.

These were from a Dec 19 article in The Atlantic. Took me about 20 seconds to Google it. Article is chock full o' context.

Good counterpoint, James. Everyone loves a contrarian.

John Navratil| 1.3.11 @ 11:55AM

Bogdog,

You are a better googler than I. I took me a bit more time to find the Atlantic article which, in addition to the promises (I suggested the words would be there) included...

'Challenges remain, however, to establishing an ROTC program on Yale's campus, the paper reported, "such as the level of student interest in the program and whether it is cost-effective for ROTC to start a new unit at Yale" -- as well as questions about who would "teach military science classes" and "supervise the program."'

In the Harvard Crimson article with Mullen, the comments were made before DADT was repealed and repeat the mantra that "I want to be the president of Harvard who sees the end of ‘don’t ask, don’t tell’ because I want to be able to take the steps to ensure that any and every Harvard student can make the honorable and admirable choice to commit him or herself to our nation’s defense," with the implied BUT being the requirement for repeal of DADT. Mullen didn't address the point.

I'm still waiting for more than rhetoric. I'm still looking for those invitations which James suggested have already been sent. I don't resent the Ivys, but the cynic in me has heard the talk an is waiting for the walk. I look forward to being pleasantly surprised.

bogdog| 1.3.11 @ 2:07PM

John N,

Don't get me wrong. Words are simply air clutter without meaningful action. On this, I totally agree. The military changes, the Ivy League changes. I find it surprising, as James did, that there's a vitriolic face-spiting nose amputation planned when dealing with institutions that stood their ground. Stood their ground on a faulty principle? Maybe. But, they stood their ground.

As for those saying that we have plenty of institutions that create fine officers...yes, we do. You'd be surprised at the "quality spread" of officers, and from where they received their degrees. Harvard, Yale and the others will continue to push out graduates that will go into public service and make policy that directly affects the military. It would be nice to have them exposed to the military during their formative years. Look for opportunities, make no unnecessary enemies, keep your friends close, your enemies closer...what other platitudes can I throw in?

Definitely good points, John. Cheers!

mzk1| 1.4.11 @ 5:10PM

OK, but I still want all of the money returned for the years it was banned. "Standing your ground" against those who protect us in no virtue.

LiveFreeOrDie| 1.3.11 @ 11:34AM

"...Ivies coming out from under DADT to reconsider ROTC. Several are indicating they will invite units."

Less talk, more action. Believe it when I see it, etc.

Only Republican at Woodstock| 1.3.11 @ 11:35AM

As usual with liberals, I think we need to see what they do, rather than listen to what they say. Only time will tell. My other observation is that Yale seemed a lot more aggitated about the military's attitude toward gays than they were about Talibanista, Rahmatullah Hashemi's attitude towards them.

Larry J| 1.3.11 @ 11:53AM

Those colleges who used DADT as the grounds to ban ROTC are either liars or idiots. DADT was federal law, passed by a Democrat-controlled Congress and signed by a Democrat president in 1993. Unlike the Ivy League universities, the military does not have the luxury of choosing which laws to obey. To even suggest they so is stupid and dangerous - that way lies the path to dictatorship. So, either those universities were ignorant of the law or they're lying about their reasons for banning ROTC. Neither speaks well of the Ivy League.

mzk1| 1.4.11 @ 5:12PM

What gets me about this debate is that DADT is now the CONSERVATIVE view. DADT is ridiculous - they should go back to asking and refusing.

I will say, though, when I explained the concern to a friend here in Israel (and they are almost all veterans), he was dumbfounded - that we have open showers and not stalls.

Tantor| 1.3.11 @ 6:02PM

The real reason for banning ROTC was the East Coast cultural disdain for the military, which is ultimately rooted in religion. Read Jim Webb's "Born Fightng" for the details. The Vietnam War was just the precipitating event.

DADT was an excuse after the fact. After all, the Ivy League schools enthusiastically support Muslim student groups which advocate the execution of homosexuals. The theme which links rejection of the military with the embrace of illiberal Islamic groups is oikophobia.

Sep 11 changed the political environment with the consequence that it was no longer politically tenable to oppose the military, which defends the US and is one of the most respected institutions in our culture. The repeal of DADT gives the Ivy Leagues an excuse, not a reason, to bring ROTC back on campus.

Kevin| 1.3.11 @ 10:32PM

Do I understand your thesis?
The ONLY reason the Ivies banned the ROTC is because the military would not accept sexual perversion in its ranks?
Oh my! How they must love Obama's queer support.

Ted| 1.4.11 @ 11:15AM

It seems that DADT was just an excuse for the Ivies to keep ROTC and the military off campus. You might be correct in your assessment. Time will tell either way.

"The Watchman" | 1.3.11 @ 9:57AM

The acceptance of ROTC units on any campus, even the West Coast campuses began with the Carter pardon for Vietnam War draft dodgers. It was a slap in the face to those of us who did go and fight, whether drafted or enlisted. We do not need Officers from any campus that does not accept ROTC units with no strings attached. We have survived this long without them, and we will survive in the future. That is of course if there is a free American future.

The Watchman" | 1.3.11 @ 10:02AM

A slight correction to my previous posting: I meant the un-acceptance of ROTC units. I'm sure that all who actually read this area were quite capable of figuring out what I meant, isn't what I typed. This correction is for those who may have thought me to be illiterate, and not just merely a typist with chunky fingers. Thanks, "The Watchman"

Ole Sarge| 1.3.11 @ 10:10AM

Let's continue to get the "Ivies" the same as before... if they WANT an ROTC experience, travel to the STATE school near by that has an ROTC detachment. It's has worked for nearly 30 years, why change now? Unless the goal is to "overload" the ROTC sourced commissions with Leftists and Socialists.

Tantor| 1.3.11 @ 6:05PM

Ole Sarge, you'd just be punishing the officer candidates, rather than the faculty and administration. The leftists have completed their long march through the academy. Now it's time for the conservatives, spearheaded by the military, to make its own long march through the institutions.

Anthony| 1.3.11 @ 10:24AM

So Jed, when did you learn to speak Italian?
Your points are well taken, and although I'm no fan of the Ivies, I believe their students, (all 5 of them) should be allowed to participate in ROTC on campus without hassle. Not all Ivy attendees are lefty jerks, although you & Lullabys make good points.
However, if the Ivies still have a problem with ROTC, they can opt out by paying huge penalties to other institutions and their students who wish to serve their country. Sort of like the luxury tax in baseball, directly out of their fat endowments.

Citizen Jerry| 1.3.11 @ 11:04AM

You make an excellent argument. However, Ivy League schools aren't the only ones "where the unreconstructed hippies of the 1960s dominate the faculty and teach a political ideology that disdains America." These bearded Marxists are teaching in schools across the land and have pretty much taken over academia.
That's why parents need to be very careful as to where they send their children and their tuition money.

Kristo Miettinen| 1.3.11 @ 11:06AM

The Ivies can't be lumped together like this. For instance, Cornell University has military instruction as part of its chartered purpose as the land-grant college of New York state. From the second paragraph of the University charter:

"OBJECTS AND POWERS OF THE CORPORATION
The leading object of said corporation shall be to teach such branches of learning as are related to agriculture and the mechanic arts, including military tactics, in order to promote the liberal and practical education of the industrial classes in the several pursuits and professions of life."

Milwaukee| 1.3.11 @ 11:35AM

Gee, some of the most pretentious people I have ever met were products of Cornell. We seem to be getting plenty of quality officers without ROTC at the Ivies. Don't waste the money trying to re-establish such programs.

mwl| 1.3.11 @ 3:34PM

Don't assume that all Cornell alumni are pretentious blowhards just because Keith Olbermann is one.

Tantor| 1.3.11 @ 6:10PM

Olberman is a graduate of Cornell Agricultural College, not the Ivy League Cornell he claims as his alma mater.

Jim| 1.4.11 @ 7:58AM

Cornell never abolished it's ROTC programs and currently has Navy, Air Force and Army units, which are open by the way to students at all the other colleges within a 50 mile radius of Ithaca that don't have their own programs.

As for pretension, the two most pretentious people I ever met went to Syracuse and Ohio State. The Ivies actually perform a bit of a service in that 99% of their students find out that they aren't the smartest kid in the world by the end of October of their freshman year!

mzk1| 1.4.11 @ 5:16PM

This may be a really dumb question, but how is Ivy League defined? I always thought the USMA (West Point) was technically part of it?

richard mcenroe | 1.3.11 @ 11:06AM

Now seriously, Jed, surely the service of a distinguished naval veteran like John Forbes Kerry is all the evidence any reasonable man needs to see the worth of Ivy League military involvement on the military...

D| 1.3.11 @ 11:08AM

Jed,
ROTC has been a constant on Cornell's campus. I have no idea on current numbers, but my fraternity had 6 my senior year, all Army, out of a brotherhood of 78. Two are still serving today, 19 years after departing campus. Good men, then and now, they have served the country well.

Jeff| 1.3.11 @ 11:08AM

Cornell is the exception. ROTC has been on campus since 1945 and never got kicked off. All the service branches are represented on campus and the units at Cornell also serve some of the smaller schools in upstate NY. When I there in the 90's, the university president frequently attended the annual commissioning ceremonies.

TP| 1.3.11 @ 11:33AM

Jeff - Cornell is not the only "exception." The University of Pennsylvania has Navy ROTC (and Army if I recall correctly). I knew plenty of great guys who were in the NROTC program, including one who went on as a Marine to command a combat unit in the first Gulf War. At least as far as Penn was concerned, it definitely improved campus to have these people around, often in uniform and in your classes. I would also note that the Navy actively recruited for its nuclear program, so it must have liked what it was getting.

Mastro| 1.3.11 @ 3:30PM

I knew a Marine aviator who was NROTC at Penn.

Note that Penn and Cornell have always had strong science and engineering programs- ROTC is a better fit there than the liberal arts Ivies.

Most Penn students want to go one to big $$ in Wall Street- hardly the mark of a socialist. If they dislike the military- its mainly because they think the money is too low.

jmcconn| 4.4.11 @ 12:37AM

Cornell isn't the only exception. Princeton has had an army ROTC unit throughout the entire period. I went through the program myself.

Ned| 1.3.11 @ 11:09AM

If you have been on the campus at Vassar lately, you'll understand that there are some excellent NFL candidates there...

Porkov | 1.3.11 @ 11:10AM

Until my nephew was accepted to the USAF Academy I was not aware that acceptance to any service academy was transferable not only to the others, but also to any school with a ROTC program. As he had also been accepted to MIT, that was an option.
From a purely subversive perspective, wouldn't it be a good thing to infect the Ivy League with some leadership that's based on civic responsibility vs. inherited entitlement?

Bob Miller| 1.3.11 @ 11:11AM

This article is silly. Anyone from any college who would choose to join ROTC now is motivated to do the right thing, regardless of what else is happening on campus.

Marine Officer| 1.3.11 @ 5:10PM

Thank you for the one sensible comment in this thread.

Student's moral convictions and attitudes should not be automatically conflated with those of university administrations' or professors'. I tend to view the military officer from po-dunk community college as no different in motive and talent than the officer from Harvard, Princeton or Yale. Why do so many on this discussion board? Says a little something about your prejudices.

p thomas| 1.3.11 @ 11:12AM

Am reading "The Day of Battle", Rick Atkinson's 2nd part in his WW2 trilogy. In it he describes the 1942 Princeton Class. Of about 650 member class, 84% (of men I assume) were in the military, both the valedictorian and salutatorian were enlisted men (not officers) and 25 members of that class died during the war, 19 from combat.

Stark difference today I am afraid.

Marine Officer Again| 1.3.11 @ 5:14PM

There was a universal draft in 1942 and the vast majority of Americans aged 18-25 were joining the military back then. How can you compare that to today?

One percent of Americans are in the military today. I know for a fact that the 2009 Princeton Class had 12 members join the military (because I am one of them). That happens to be one percent of the class. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I'm sure the stats are probably the same at most state schools.

Ted| 1.4.11 @ 11:19AM

Ah, a wee one... Still a 2LT? First, thanks for volunteering. Second, listen to your Gunny. Third, don't try and be a hero. It will only cost you and your men. It's much better to be smart, and better overall for your men.

jmcconn| 4.4.11 @ 12:43AM

Good job, proud of you. Captain myself, and also a product of Princeton ROTC programs. The rest of the commentators should stop punishing the great students and future officers coming out of these places because you happen to disagree with some of the faculty.

Joseph Hertzlinger | 1.3.11 @ 11:22AM

We have an opportunity to inject some fresh air into Ivy League schools. Let's not waste it.

willis| 1.3.11 @ 11:26AM

"This [decision in Congress] allows us to make the recommendations we wanted to make" to allow ROTC programs to return to the Yale campus for the first time since 1969."

Compare that to this statement: "Based upon Congress meeting our demand to repeal DADT, we hereby allow ROTC to return to our Yale campus." See how different that sounds. When will you hear it? Take a deep breath. If you're a typical America-hating leftist, don't let it out until you see an ROTC unit activated at Yale.

Jaypitsby| 1.3.11 @ 11:41AM

I think I've heard of the schools, Yale and Vasser. What are they exactly?

Bill Huber | 1.3.11 @ 11:54AM

The availability of ROTC scholarship money is a major attraction and a major budget constraint. Due to the large number of candidates interested in ROTC scholaship money in existing programs, this may not be good time to start up new programs at the Ivy league schools. My son is in the ROTC program at Virginia Tech and they are looking at record numbers in the ROTC program.

mzk1| 1.4.11 @ 5:20PM

Y'know, that makes me think. Maybe they just want the money? Even Harvard fell on hard times.

Pelligrino| 1.4.11 @ 11:47PM

Bingo, mzk1. You hit the nail on the head.

With the economy in the tank, no jobs for undergraduate or graduate diplomas, the military has NEVER seen EASIER recruitment in our lifetimes.

Both for enlisted....and for the new officers coming out of these ROTC programs.....

Where (as the recent US Navy radio ad put it) one Dad chortles to the other Dad, "Yep, my daughter is getting a full Navy ROTC scholarship worth $180,000."

Folks, ain't practically no kid -- period -- comin' out of any school worth taxpayers' giving $180,000 for tuition and books. (It is more when you factor in real overhead.)

MANY, MANY, MANY of these kids (with their parents pushin' em) are in these ROTC programs because of the money. Their hearts, minds, and souls are NOT into the true rigors of military service.

If you live near a school with an ROTC program, head over. You're a taxpayer. You have a right to know what is going on. Ask tough questions.

Pelligrino| 1.4.11 @ 11:53PM

Believe me. So many of these college kids are themselves in plastic credit card debt.

So they find their way to military service via the ROTC program to make sure they have a job -- JOB -- after graduation. (Because all those other grads are moving back in with mom & dad not later than September....4 months after graduating.)

The problems:

Our military is not a jobs program.

The mindset of these kids (and their parents) is entitlements.

Their mindset is not on the very special calling one must have -- the rare calling -- to be an officer in our armed forces.

tu3031| 1.3.11 @ 11:57AM

Can you imagine our Army, Navy, Marine Corps and Air Force without Ivy Leaguers in command?

Hmmmm, I dunno. Petraeus has his Masters and PHD in International Relations from Princeton. He seems to be doing okay.

JimBob7| 1.3.11 @ 2:37PM

As I recall, Petraeus received his undergratuate education at the US Military Academy. I think it's great to send Field Grade officers' to the Ivies, as they will have been exposed to life in the field army, fleet of FMF. They will be less likely to succumb to the socialist propaganda currently infecting the ivies.

tu3031| 1.3.11 @ 5:11PM

Very true. West Point is as good an education as you can get in this country, if not the world.
My point is if the man who is our finest field general sees some value in an Ivy League education, then they must be doing something right.

Pelligrino| 1.5.11 @ 12:14AM

When you see a general or admiral show up at these schools for the advanced degrees remember a few things:

1. They are not paying this tution/fees, etc. with their own money. They are doing it with your taxpayer dollars.

...while still drawing their full pay as flag officers -- now that is what I call REALLY TOUGH duty.

2. They want that degree as part of their pedigree. They are looking over the horizon to those next roles as politicos a la Wesley Clark or Collin Powell. Their military careers are near their end; they want to be seen as equals at places like Davos, Switzerland, World Summits, global think tank locales, and most certainly as bigtime TV pundits in the years to come. These Ivy experiences make them much more salon acceptable, urbane.

3. The Ivies permit it because it lends a bit of "credibility" to their programs.

Bob K.| 1.3.11 @ 5:29PM

These degrees are just insurance the Ivies take out in the event that they need some help from the Military. Petraeus and his ilk owe them favors back. You don't really think these degree programs are as rigorous as their regular programs do you? If you do maybe some USMA graduate can sell you the Bear Mountain Bridge over the Hudson!Bob

JB| 1.3.11 @ 7:44PM

and you know this from your own experience with these programs?

Having gone to Princeton, read General Petraeus' dissertation, and having heard him speak at Princeton, I can assure you that the military officer's there are put through the same rigorous program as anyone else?

Oh and by the way, I am a military officer right now.

Oh and by the way again, three of my professors at Princeton were military generals and colonels. Are they 60's radical commies?

tu3031| 1.3.11 @ 7:54PM

So, Bob, I take it you consider "Petraeus and his ilk" as frauds on the take for an Ivy League advanced degree? I'd like to hear your proof.
I'll wait...

Bob K| 1.3.11 @ 11:18PM

Judging from yours and JB's howls I must have touched a nerve there!

Why don't you explain why the Ivies are so willing to grant advanced degrees to these leaders of men and women but refuse to let the men and women they lead study military science at their Universities.

It seems to me you could get just as good an advanced degree at schools which have ROTC programs.

I think the concept is called Leadership. Maybe it is now more honored in the idea than the reality.

jmcconn| 4.4.11 @ 12:48AM

Umm... last time I checked, when I graduated from the school commissioned as a 2LT, Princeton has had an active Army ROTC program since the army first established them.

Pelligrino| 1.5.11 @ 12:20AM

Yes, they are mostly frauds. In every sense of the word. These are creeps that will DO ANYTHING for a promotion or plum assignment --- one that assures promotion.

AND: They are doing this and counting the time at the civilian academic institution as part of their accumulated time in service.

So, you're the real chump in their eyes.

One, you're funding their very pricey education (probably all the way from that military academy or ROTC program to multiple masters degrees now to this Ivy league experience). Two, they are getting paid very well as senior officers. Three, these are years that add onto their service year totals.

And, yes, it matters.

Retirement pay at 20 years of service is good. Retirement pay does not max out until 30 years.

So....yes, they quietly (very quietly) see US taxpayers are real chumps.

tu3031| 1.3.11 @ 10:43PM

Thanks, Bob. That's what I figured.
Good luck with Bear Mountain Bridge. I'm sure you'll make millions...

Pelligrino| 1.5.11 @ 12:00AM

Gen. Petraeus sucks. He epitomizes the modern, good looking (cast, yes, direct from Central Casting), right height, right accent, PC moron that means we dither and dither and dither whilst the next kid gets his legs severed in a roadside bomb on the same road that ended lives of our kids in 2003, 2005, 2006, and multiple times in 2007.

I don't call that winning.

We are a world laughingstock as a supposed superpower.

And I expect a general with four starts to be screaming his head off that we MUST end our PCesque approach to WARFIGHTING.

Iraq will be back in its full cesspool 30 months after our withdrawal. Ditto Afghanistan.

So you, I, and the rest of the nation will wonder just what did our US mitary do for an entire decade.

From Pearl Harbor to VE Day was 3.5 years. Not even 4 years for VJ Day. INCREDIBLE!

David Petraeus is not made of that kind of mettle.

He is a big, big part of the problem.

pablo panadero| 1.3.11 @ 12:00PM

Think long term here for a moment. Perhaps one reason that the Ivies have been able to wallow into shallow Marxist institutions has been their ability to bully Conservative opinions off their property. I don't want to infect the military with Ivie leftists, that is already been done and the military has survived the damage. What I want to do is plant the seed of Conservativism (through ROTC) in the heart of Ivy Leftists, and let the battle of logic and ideas take its course. My overwhelming confidence is that the tenacity and intellectual courage of these young men and women will win over quite a few converts and change the Ivies forever.

D Reed| 1.3.11 @ 12:06PM

There would be huge opposition to this from within DoD. They like being able to send their own children t0 the Ivies at taxpayer expense via ROTC scholarships. And, yes, you can attend a school without ROTC at taxpayer expense if you drill at a school that has ROTC. Check out Harvard - it has lots of kids with ROTC Scholarships - Uncle Sugar pays the full freight (tuition, room, board, fees, text books, etc) and pays them a salary, too. They drill at MIT or one of the other Boston area schools.
Having attended an Ivy with an ROTC Scholarship that my Army Dad guided me toward (I did earn it myself), I've seen this first hand.

David McCune| 1.3.11 @ 12:07PM

Hold on a minute with the broad brush. I am a proud product of the Tiger Battalion, Princeton University ROTC Class of '87. Princeton has had on-campus ROTC beginning in 1919 and continuing to present day. There was a 2 year period of 1970-1972 where it was shut down in protest, but it reopened due to alumni pressure.

Also, to the broader point, I think the military benefits by drawing from a broad and diverse recruiting base. Having some Ivy League graduates in uniform is one way to bring in some really talented minds. That is, unless you think that having, for example, Sam Alito (Princeton ROTC Class of '72) in the Army JAG Corps was a bad thing.

Capn Dan| 1.3.11 @ 12:19PM

Yes, let's put ROTC back into the Ivies. Not so much for the benefit of the services, but for the benefit of the Ivies and society at large. Having ROTC students as a part of the community will improve the understanding of the military among the other graduates of each school.

In addition, having ROTC readily available will attract more recruits. It's not that Ivy League officers are better than any other officers, it's that a broader cross-section of colleges represented in the military improves the military. Let's cut off the tit-for-tat neener-neener-neener silliness and act to improve the colleges and the military.

- Syracuse University ROTC scholarship student, class of '77.

Al Adab| 1.3.11 @ 12:20PM

Would it not be better for the nation, its future and the culture to restore the "noblesse oblige" that once took Harvard men to the fields of Gettysburg and Cuba and across the seas to France and the Pacific?

To be politically incorrect about it all, where is the vaunted masculinity of American society when men left their fields and shops to take their place with the "long grey line" and pay whatever price to defend our Freedom on foreign fields? Instead of a disconnected elite, we need to build a courageous ethic in ALL our young men, and today women as well. The price of liberty is preparedness.

Capn Dan| 1.3.11 @ 12:25PM

The "long grey line" traditionally refers to graduates of the US Military Academy at West Point, not the military in general.

Al Adab| 1.3.11 @ 1:53PM

Yes, you are correct (from cadet grey uniforms) and that was the usage I intended. That should not be taken to disparage any of the other academies nor ROTC officers in general. It was McArthur who,speaking at West Point, said, "the long grey line has never failed us".

henry| 1.3.11 @ 12:24PM

So the Ivys might wonder about who would teach ROTC classes. If my experience from ROTC 50-some years ago, remains valid, it might surprise them with the extremely high quality of military officers as instructors. Ditto that for active-duty instruction. I remember my first tactics class at Ft. Benning where the teacher welcomed us to "the only profession on earth in which you should get down on your knees and pray every night you'll never have to put to use what you are learning." It's that praying thing that, perhaps, should keep ROTC out of the Ivy (bush) League.

Paul Windels| 1.3.11 @ 12:24PM

Babbin's snide column mocks all of the Ivy Leaguers who DID take ROTC and/or served in WWI, WWII, Korea, or Viet Nam, including my father (Princeton ROTC, Major USA, combat citations Bulge and other ETO battles)) and grandfather (Harvard, Lietenant WWI, active Reserve Officer during WWII). Many of these men were decorated and distinguished themselves in combat. I think Babbin and your publication owe a profound apology to those men and I hope you think twice before you publish his garbage again.

Bohemond| 1.3.11 @ 2:26PM

Paul,

I'm afraid that World War II was a very different age, and the Ivies post Vietnam are very, very, very different places.

Wayne | 1.3.11 @ 12:26PM

Where is the military to get its homosexuals?

Richard Baker| 1.3.11 @ 12:30PM

As a former Infantry Platoon Sergeant in the '70s, I found that the best officers were those who had been enlisted for at least a couple of years prior to OCS/ROTC. The best field officer I ever knew was 2LT Tom Farmer who'd been in LRRPs in Vietnam as an Enlisted. The worst tended to be the West Pointers whose attitude was "I'm an Academy grad" and don't need your help. The ROTC officers seemed to understand that the NCOs and troops weren't stupid and working together was a smart move. By the way, my Dad, who was a career Soldier '48-'68, told me that in the '50s the Academy grads were as I knew them. Some things never change. Save the money and withdraw ROTC from the Ivy League. There are better schools elsewhere.

Diogenes| 1.3.11 @ 12:35PM

As usual, Jed, you are dead right; however, you did not go far enough.

Some of the officers from Ivy Leagues and LAW SCHOOLS, have taken SAFE positions in the officer corps of the U.S. military. Mainly - these fakes became JAG Corps lawyers, like Arch-RINO Lindsay Grahamnesty. They became the RULERS (from afar) of the battlefield, like the JAG-ass, who overruled the Special Operators, who had Osama in their sites for a much-needed Hellfire Missile shot.

I believe that it is high time that we all realize that the Ivy League Mafia (and lawyers in general) have positioned themselves, through strands of ivy and bar associations, as the RULING CASTE in the U.S. They have created a sort of Neo-Communism, which is a two-tiered world government with themselves in the permanent Politburo, and the rest of us in a permanent serfdom, reminiscent of the Middle Ages.

pashkley1411| 1.3.11 @ 12:58PM

I think there is a good argument for defunding the JAG and privitizing military attorney services. There is a good argument to reducing the role of attornies in our society. There is a good argument to make sure the Pentagon is staffed with battlefield officers rather than procurement managers, a never ending bureaucratic struggle. ROTC in Ivy League schools has nothing to do with any of these arguments.

Just from suspicion, I'll bet ROTC's coming out of "elite" schools are weighed heavier in combat arms MOS's. The type of personality that would buck the trend at their university would want gravitate towards the more challenging positions in the military.

Princeton Marine| 1.3.11 @ 5:22PM

Of the five Marines that came out of my 2009 Princeton class, every single one has joined the Infantry. From the Army ROTC program, which graduates about 5-6 officers a year, the majority have gone into infantry as well. So much for Diogenes' point.

Not to mention, our valedictorian and rhode scholar was a product of the ROTC program and one of the leading conservative voices on campus.

Porkov | 1.3.11 @ 4:30PM

This is why Obamacare has to be expanded to include universal legal care, with all the advantages to lawyers that are currently thrilling doctors.

Richard Baker| 1.3.11 @ 12:36PM

Windels:
The problem is that the Ivy League NOW has a contempt for those of us who serve or have done so. The Ivy League of your Father and Grandfather is not the same as today. That's what this article highlights. By the way, I thank them both for their service to our country. Would they receive the same approbation today at their alma mater?

Paul Windels| 1.3.11 @ 3:02PM

Baker: That may be the case with the administrations, but a positive ROTC presence might bring out the best in the students. I appreciate your attitude. Saying "who needs Ivy League grads in the military?" as Babbin does enforces the very divorce between the military and the academic world that the administrations of many Ivy colleges have tried to create. The best way to bury these administrations is by building successful ROTC programs right under their noses. Cheers!

mixplix| 1.3.11 @ 12:41PM

Richard Bakers post are words of wisdom.

mixplix| 1.3.11 @ 12:41PM

Richard Bakers post are words of wisdom.

Diogenes| 1.3.11 @ 12:43PM

Windels, unlike the kind Mr. Baker, I think that you are one of those phony Obama bin Biden lurkers, who falsify their history to try to lessen the impact of such effective Conservatives as Jed Babbin and "The American Spectator."

By the way, I note that, in spite of your faux admiration for your faux ancestors, you don't indicate any military service for yourself. Surely you are a Yalie, who single-handedly saved Hillary Clinton, when she arrived in Bosnia under a hail of gunfire!!!!!!!

Paul Windels| 1.3.11 @ 3:07PM

Diogenes -- Unfortunately, I didn't have the opportunity to do ROTC, and we didn't have a war going on when I got into the workforce. Your baseless and false personal attacks, however, demonstrate that you are the very opposite of the pen name you assume (so brave of you, sir).

Pashley1411| 1.3.11 @ 12:51PM

I can't get into Ivy bashing here. My take is that they are liberal politically-correct ghettos, I don't know directly, the Ivies are in a different part of the country. They can't be worse than here at CU/Boulder.

But look, we, Americans, support all sorts of these group think ghettos. There is a good argument for slashing funds to all of them, but this isn't one of the arguments.

The military services provide a pretty good melting pot for all regions of the country. We can't exclude the northeast because the children of the 60's rule the roost in some colleges.

John Jarrell| 1.3.11 @ 12:52PM

Spot on! The time has come for our money to stop subsidizing the liberal madrasses of the Ivy League. Let's not stop there. Every school that gets federal money should be evaluated with regard to the diversity of opinion available on campus. Any school where conservative opinion is banned or inhibted should not get one penny of my (and your) tax money. Think of the billions that would save!

NH Voter| 1.3.11 @ 1:00PM

The "elite" colleges are overrated. They are more concerned about making their professors happy than providing a quality education. Like Bose speakers, you are just paying for the name. Personally, I give as much respect to an Ivy grad as I do an affirmative action doctor.

Rino| 1.3.11 @ 1:01PM

I certainly wouldn't miss having Ivy league educated leaders in the military. Just look what happened when George Bush was Commander in Chief!

Ray| 1.3.11 @ 2:13PM

What colleges did Obama attend again? Oh, that's right: Columbia and Harvard Law. No Ivy League background there, correct?

Porkov | 1.3.11 @ 4:35PM

I can tell you'd rather have had John Kerry.

John| 1.3.11 @ 1:01PM

You *do* realize that as soon as it occurs to the Ivy League that they have absolutely NO representation in the US military, that they will *sue* the military to to and force them to open ROTC programs on their campuses, yes?

debbie| 1.3.11 @ 1:09PM

Lets not judge the kids at Ivies by their useless professors and teachers, or the alumni of the 60's.... Maybe this new generation has something to offer. Probably not, but one can hope anyway....

Larry J| 1.3.11 @ 4:15PM

The finest of the current generation are already serving in the military. They volunteered to serve in wartime. As an old vet and former mustang, I have tremendous respect for them. As for most of the current crop of college students, not so much.

Herb| 1.3.11 @ 1:21PM

This is a real eye-opener. I didn't realize Colman McCarthy was still spewing his sewer gas. But I haven't read the Pink Sheet in years.

A. C. Santore| 1.3.11 @ 2:09PM

The very fact that a university banned ROTC and recruiters because it disagreed with the military is precisely the reason why it should not have ROTC and recruiters now.

That attitude is precisely contrary to the military culture [I'm a vet, before you resist that remark.]

The telling quotation from the article is "For four decades, we've managed pretty well despite the lack of ROTC at the Ivies."

For me, it's exquisitely simple. Any university who kicked out ROTC or recruiters - for any reason - can live without them now.

A. C. Santore| 1.3.11 @ 2:14PM

p.s. It is my experience that prospective ROTCers decide on ROTC then look for a college that offers it, and not decide on a college and then look to see whether it has ROTC.

So it's just a recruiting tool for the anti-military universities, isn't it? Let'em stew in their own juices.

Ray| 1.3.11 @ 2:32PM

You seem to be forgetting something, and that the fact that it doesn't matter of the "professors" at a particular college are "anti-military" or not, it's the ROTC Cadets themselves who are important. I don't know of any ROTC Cadets who are "anti-military," do you?

Who cares if a percentage of professors at a particular college is "anti-military" or not? I sure don't, as that's immaterial to the question of the quality of the officers who serve in the military.

You see, it's the ROTC graduates who are the ones who will serve, not the professors who may or may no be "anti-military." So, tell me, what difference does it make if those dedicated ROTC graduates attended a college that is supposedly "anti-military?"

Ray| 1.3.11 @ 2:41PM

"Let'em stew in their own juices."

You seem to want to punish the colleges for their "anti-military" stance , but who will you actually be punishing? That's right, you'll be punishing the future ROTC Cadets who want to attend those colleges.

WHY should we punish future ROTC Cadets, future military officers by denying them ROTC scholarships? Should we do so because of the "anti-military" beliefs of some college professors who will never even serve in the military? THAT doesn't make any sense whatsoever!

Pelligrino| 1.5.11 @ 12:32AM

The previous poster had it right -- you do not.

A smart, dedicated, fit, bright, military-minded kid is looking primarily at either a service academy or a college/university with an existing ROTC program to attend.

The PRIORITY is the military track toward serving as a junior officer.

Secondary is the actual school.

So many of our US schools have offered ROTC over the years. It is much better to attend a Virginia Tech with it rich, long tradition of producing military junior officers (with the FULL support of an institution behind the program, not just the on campus ROTC staff).

Without the full support of an academic institution (from the athletic department to the president), you're spinning your wheels at an institution.

And the cadets get a fourth-rate officer development program.

Ray| 1.3.11 @ 2:09PM

"The right question is this: Is it in the military's best interest to invest time and money to recruit and train young officers from among the denizens of the Ivy League? In short, it isn't."

That's a rather pretentious statement, isn't it? It's just as arrogant, just as insulting to individuals as any "Ivy League" graduate's supposed arrogance. Just because someone attended an "Ivy League" college, it doesn't mean they won't be a valuable officer. The author's comments and conclusions reek of elitism.

Contrary to the author's apparent bias in an Officer's educational background, A West Point diploma won't guarantee a highly effective officer just as a degree from an Ivy League college won't guarantee a ineffective officer.

As my prior military experience has taught me, education background isn't a very good indicator of command capabilities. I've known several West Point Graduates who couldn't command a platoon of short order cooks, and I've know many "Ivy League" ROTC officers who where some of the best commanders I have ever met.

I've also know excellent commanders who never graduated fromany "Ivy League" College or Academy but, instead, attended OCS (Officer Candidate School), after being "recruited" from enlisted rakes because of the exceptional leadership abilities they displayed, including a few who had never even attended "higher education" in any form and had only a GED in which to indicate their prior educational "excellence".

So, please, let's not judge someone due to their educational background but, instead, judge them due their actions and abilities. To do otherwise is to display arrogance, to display elitism.

A. C. Santore| 1.3.11 @ 2:17PM

All true, to one degree or another, but don't get on the wrong premise.

The question is not what kind of student or his/her university makes a good officer.

The question is whether we want schools that are anti-military to be educating our military officers.

I don't.

Ray| 1.3.11 @ 2:19PM

Well, since ROTC programs aren't taught by Ivy League Professors even at Ivy League colleges, I don't what difference it makes.

Ray| 1.3.11 @ 2:22PM

Correction: that should read "I don't know what difference it makes."

Pelligrino| 1.5.11 @ 12:42AM

It makes an enormous difference if the ROTC program has solid backing from the school's other departments, faculty members, staff, administrators, etc.

ROTC staffing is usually minimal. It is not much. And cadets rarely ever take more than one ROTC class per semester (they are simultaneously to be rigidly on track for that biology, electronics, chemistry, engineering, or economics degree).

Many an ROTC cadet can tell you of professors that gave them lots of stick for wearing the uniform in class, the tell-tale haircut, seeing the kid run across campus to a PT formation, etc.

It is worlds better when the Chairs of the History, Business, and Sciences Departments along with the Vice Presdident for Academic Development and the Univ. President are avid, engaged supporters.

Ask any cadre (the ROTC instructors) what it is like to be on a campus with the constant not-so-subtle digs, barbs, and hints that they'd prefer you get lost.

ROTC programs need lots of resources. And those resources (buildings, vans, physical fitness locales, use of the stadium, fields, use of the campus mail office, etc.) are fully intertwined with the host school's resources.

If your ROTC program lacks the university's support for those resources, well, the cadet program is worse than substandard.

The establishment at a university can wreck havoc on a ROTC cadet battalion.

And the cadets suffer for it; it is their futures and their rigorous development that must be paramount.

Ricco| 1.3.11 @ 3:15PM

Babbin's frothing over the Ivies is so over the top.

To take his arguement to its logical (or illogical) conclusion, if the Ivies are such a bad place, then nobody, N-O-B-O-D-Y, who graduated or even attended from an Ivy league school at any time should be allowed in the military.

Tara| 1.3.11 @ 2:19PM

MIT is not technically an "Ivy", but often lumped in with them. MIT has had ROTC continuously since ROTC began. Some of the faculty don't like it, but they're outvoted by the rest. MIT's president gave a moving speech at their commissioning ceremony last summer. I thanked her for the speech later, and she said it was an honor and a privilege to do that each summer. Could have been just blowing smoke ... but I doubt you'd get the same flavor of smoke from some other college presidents.

Bohemond| 1.3.11 @ 2:45PM

To which we should add Duke, Virginia, Cal-Berkeley(!!!), Northwestern, Georgetown, Rensellaer, Carnegie-Mellon and Vanderbilt as first-rank schools with ROTC programs.

Arch| 1.3.11 @ 2:52PM

We should force all college recipients of federal grant programs to invite ROTC units back and open campuses to military recruiters.

ROTC provides excellent scholarships including tuition, room & board, books and a summer job to regulars, plus exposure to military culture for students who may have no background in the military. Just because their students have SAT scores in the 1600s doesn't mean they are leftists.

The Solomon Amendment is law. Harvard alone annually takes in $400 million in Federal research grants. Make these schools chose between grants and ROTC and recruiters.

Purple Lips| 1.3.11 @ 3:07PM

Do we really want some apple polishing, effete,metrosexual trust fund baby getting military commissions?

Give me an 22 year old from Appalachia who attended Hillbilly Community College on a ROTC scholarship, and who learnt to fire a Winchester before he could ride a bike. Give me a 22 year old from Odessa Texas who believes that the greatest warrior of all time was Chesty Puller and who is willing to back up his beliefs not with Power Point Presentations but with his fists.

Pelligrino| 1.5.11 @ 12:48AM

Amen. Purple L. nailed it. Thank you. Those kids at the W. Kentuckys of our smorgasbord of US schools, those are the kids that have been thinking about military service for a long time. And seem to have a much better understanding of the calling, the undertaking.

Richard Baker| 1.3.11 @ 3:15PM

Windels:
These '60s radicals who run these schools have openly made their choices. We should choose to have ROTC programs at schools which appreciate them as just another part of education. As I asked you earlier, would your Father and Grandfather receive the approbation of their alma mater today? If the Ivy League elites don't want ROTC then by all means remove to other schools.

Paul Windels| 1.3.11 @ 5:05PM

I am certain my father would not have cared less whether he received the approbation of his alma mater when he joined ROTC, whatever that means. I certainly bucked plenty of teachers by being openly conservative in college, and it only made me more so, as I found their pettiness less than admirable. Where I respectfully differ from you is that I don't see ROTC as benefiting the institutions but rather the students and the nation. If there are Ivy League students RWA to serve in the military and if the military can benefit by their service, then I'm all for it, and who cares about the '60s radicals.

Carlos| 1.3.11 @ 4:15PM

There was a Yale man in my Navy squadron back in the mid 70's. A pilot. In hindsight (as it were), he probably was gay.

Mike| 1.3.11 @ 4:41PM

Hmmm. We had 3 Ivy League grads flying off the Connie when I was there (mid-80s). We didn't have any law school grads though.

Mike| 1.3.11 @ 4:41PM

Hmmm. We had 3 Ivy League grads flying off the Connie when I was there (mid-80s). We didn't have any law school grads though.

Porkov | 1.3.11 @ 4:49PM

I totally agree with Santore that we would be better off without ROTC and recruiters on the college campus. What I would rather see is the Heinlein model, where you have to serve, not necessarily in the military but in some capacity, to obtain the franchise. Read (DON'T WATCH!) Starship Troopers.

Terry Hughes| 1.3.11 @ 5:03PM

I graduated from Yale twice: BA and PhD. I'd like to see an ROTC program there to attract more conservatives to Yale. To some extent the "level of student interest" issue is a self-fulfilling problem: If a school doesn't have an ROTC program, not many students interested in ROTC will enroll. Before ROTC programs were banned at Yale there were lots of people in them. Build it and they will (probably) come again.

F.B.| 1.3.11 @ 5:20PM

I understand that because the NYT and then other news sources started covering the 'ROTC in the Ivy League' issue everyone has felt it necessary to throw in their two cents about the Ivy League, the 60s, ROTC, etc., but people seem to be forgetting that it certainly isn't all the Ivies. Cornell has an ROTC program (all branches) that includes our best and brightest. They are on the newspaper editorial board, club chairmen, members of fraternities and sororities, and overall just very dedicated, involved students. If the media would pay attention to these programs that exist in Ithaca, NY of all places, instead of some blabbering idiots who don't bother to do their research (McCarthy's WaPo Op-Ed) maybe we wouldn't be making this such a big deal.

Joe S| 1.3.11 @ 5:29PM

In case someone didn't mention it already, I think you need to clarify the Ivies that don't allow ROTC. My Alum, Cornell University, has the distinction of always allowing ROTC in its ranks, and if I'm correct, 1 of the only Ivies not to kick out ROTC because of a few hippies protesting. I know the snooty Ivies (Yale, Harvard, etc) don't consider Cornell a "real" Ivy, but we are nonetheless an Ivy league school. In fact, we have the reputation of while being one of the "easiest" Ivies to get into, it's the toughest to stay in.
Again, you didn't mention Cornell as excluding ROTC, but it is worth noting that we always have, and always will have ROTC on the campus.

Marilyn| 1.3.11 @ 5:38PM

My son was in ROTC at Princeton in 2007 and 2008, it was the first thing he signed up for when he arrived on campus. The campus also has an active pro-life group. I attended an event at the campus chapel during the freshmen parents weekend in 2007.

larryv| 1.3.11 @ 5:57PM

just wondering if taliban members attending ivy league colleges would be accepted into rotc program?could they sue if any attempt is made to keep them out?

Catherine Windels| 1.3.11 @ 6:00PM

Here is an article arguing that it is important to restore ROTC to elite schools: http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=7874. The author, John P. Wheeler, was a graduate of West Point, Harvard and Yale. I worked with him at the ACTION Agency early in the Reagan Administration, where he was a co-founder of the Vietnam Veterans Leadership Program. Tragically, he was murdered this week. May he rest in peace.

Ex USAF and Ashamed of It| 1.3.11 @ 6:02PM

The values of the military these days are, at the lower ranks, drug and alcohol abuse, steroids and immoral behavior. At the higher ranks, alcohol abuse, and corruption are the norm.
No, I don't want those values to be introduced at the Ivy League. In fact, I would prefer that ROTC be shut down, period, as we go about getting this country back to the traditional values of staying out of international affairs. Pat Buchanan is absolutely correct when he and the paleo cons call for an end to the empire.

Negro X| 1.3.11 @ 6:09PM

Ex UASF, Your post hilarious, you don't want those values introduced to the Ivy League.
You better look at you government heroes first troll.

orangemtl| 1.3.11 @ 6:33PM

...and I'm sure the USAF would be ashamed to have had you, as well. Yes, I'm sure the Ivies are entirely free of drug use and immoral behavior. Wouldn't want to pollute them with needless concepts, like service, self sacrifice and honor.
Get thee back to thy bridge, troll: and take your pack of Ivy covered weasels with you.

Arch| 1.3.11 @ 6:53PM

Full disclosure:

I’m a retired USAF officer and proud of it. The men and women with whom I served were disciplined, capable, honorable and highly intelligent. I fought in Vietnam, and was shot down over the North by the same missile that downed Senator McCain. My rescue was the single most courageous act I have ever witnessed.
My father was a UVA’42 Letters en route to Law School when the bombs fell on Pearl Harbor. He concealed a childhood injury, took a direct commission as an infantry officer. He landed on Omaha Beach, was wounded in the hedgerow fighting, wounded again day one of the Ardennes Offensive and killed as he led his platoon into Cologne.

My stepfather would not have attended college had he not been a football player. He was recruited by Ga Tech as an end (both offense and defense) and he received an NROTC scholarship. In 1942 he graduated, was commissioned an Ensign USNR and spent WWII island hopping as a SeaBee. In 1953 as a USN Lieutenant, he graduated Harvard MBA magna cum laude. Knuckle dragger? Hardly.

In 1990, my youngest son graduated from Dartmouth College, an institution founded in 1769 by my mother’s family.

If elite [read: anti-American] colleges want to exclude the best Americans, refuse all grants and admit your bias. You have the money.

Marc Jeric| 1.3.11 @ 6:58PM

ROTC would despoil the intellectual purity of our best universities? When I had heard that that lying cretin Anita Hill graduated from Harvard I lost all respect for the Ivy League universities. They are all just the marxist-infested fat cats.

Retired USAF/Proud of it| 1.3.11 @ 7:01PM

I was College ROTC, non-ivy, 26 yrs before retiring in 2007 (USAF Col)...and I'm currently teaching JROTC at the high school level. My opinion--the military is a slice of Americana...we've always had our heroes--and our cowards--which we received from--America. We've had brilliant tacticians...and blundering, blithering idiots. Yes, we've also had murderers, rapists, drug addicts and alcoholics...we also have responsible officers and a professional enlisted corps that weeds these kinds of people OUT. We...are you! To say you are ashamed of your service diminishes those that served before and after you to no good cause.
As to ROTC at an Ivy League school--first, by all means, enforce the Solomon Act (or get rid of it). On the other hand, it serves no good purpose to hold grudges against any university--if Ivy schools will accept ROTC back on campus, they should be there. One other point--due to budgets, there are "cross town" agreements where a "hub" ROTC unit hosts cadets from nearby universities without an active ROTC unit--this works well and has nothing to due with universities not supporting ROTC.

Tina Ferrer| 1.3.11 @ 7:13PM

As an HR specialists for INC. 500 client companies and law firms, our clients have steadily but subtly over the last two years given our firm directive's to take closer looks at applicants from secondary University institutions. Since given this directive we have placed well over 600 graduates into respective positions. Those clients that have demanded Ivy League education in the past for employment in Law, Business, the Sciences and Architecture are no longer requisites, quite the contraire.

Teflon93| 1.3.11 @ 8:35PM

I've found the same thing throughout my Fortune 100 experience. Ivy League tells us who your daddy was; it no longer says anything much about the graduate since at most of these schools the trick's in the getting in.

Most big companies have vibrant recruiting from military ranks because leadership ability, integrity, and strong work ethic are reliably found within this demographic.

For those who are unaware, the year I graduated from USAFA it was ranked #1 in academic experience, the top stat being how many credit hours our grads had when they threw their caps. No underwater basket weaving there---astronautical engineering, aeronautical engineering, mechanical engineering, thermodynamics, etc were all CORE classes.

There are precious few schools with such rigorous academic requirements, much less the military, athletic, and character requirements necessary for graduation.

If you want your children to be well-educated Americans of the highest caliber, by all means consider the service academies. They may not be the only places where you can get top-notch, authentic education, but there certainly aren't many in contention.

rhampel| 1.3.11 @ 7:37PM

We dont need ROTC at the ivies to help the military. The author here is correct about that. However we DO need ROTC at the ivies to help the ivies. Kind of like sending missionaries to heathen lands filled with cannibals, to introduce them to western culture. The ivies may be dens of anti american lefties, but that is all the more reason to have some group there to tell the truth to the occasional student who has not been completely corrupted by leftie academic propoganda.

Occam's Tool| 1.3.11 @ 8:16PM

Gentlemen:

We need good engineers in the armed forces. The best engineering schools are CalTech and MIT. We need ROTC there.

We need language experts: Middlebury College and the like needs ROTC.

We need expert polysci students and cultural anthropologists in the military: establish ROTC programs in that area with those Universities.

We have a variety of needs. I have a high school acquaintance in the State Department in Kabul now who is a worthless Liberal puss, and another friend who graduated from Harvard U who was President of TCU's YAF as an undergrad and is still Conservative.

Honestly,it's the student, not the school, that makes the patriots. The Ivies attract more than their fair share of America's talented kids---we need ROTC there. It's not about pride, it's about National Defense needs.

Occam's Tool| 1.3.11 @ 8:17PM

I'm sorry. The Liberal Puss went to Brown. I did my residency training at UCLA and I'm a touch Conservative.

RCV| 1.5.11 @ 1:25AM

UCLA was my undergraduate alma mater, and I majored in Psychology there, although it was boringly Skinnerian at the time.

RCV| 1.5.11 @ 1:26AM

And your comments about the need for ROTC presence at the Ivies and other top schools is absolutely right.

Teflon93| 1.3.11 @ 8:43PM

The Ivy League's no longer about the best; but the best-connected. Where are all the undergrads clamoring for ROTC?

Let's not conflate the needs of the Ivies for endless supply of federal dollars with the need of the military for officers from Ivy League schools. How many JAGs do we need? That's mainly what comes out of the Ivies today.

The geographic problem is that there is no longer a large population of military families in the Northeast. Doesn't mean there aren't any---just that compared to the South, Midwest, and West the Northeast is nowhere near as well-represented. That's by choice---it's an all-volunteer force.

We need people who want to serve, not social crusaders. PFC Manning demonstrates what you get with the latter.

That the Ivy League hates the military says more about the Ivy League than the military.

umbrelladoc| 1.3.11 @ 9:16PM

First, to clarify, four of the eight Ivy League schools, Princeton, Penn, Cornell and Dartmouth have ROTC programs on campus, and have had them for the better part of the last 4 decades and more.

Furthermore, using this old list of Princeton ROTC alumni on active duty, we see the most common branch is infantry, followed by engineer corps.
http://www.purotc.org/index.as.....activeduty

huanqiuma | 1.3.11 @ 8:50PM

And what will the new political class bring? Will the milquetoast Republicans come out of their political comas and grasp the simple opportunities which have been laid at their rostrum? Or will they fail to LED Tube see that they should be an assembled army to fight the good fight, which in fact is LED Display a civil war?

Cole Sear| 1.3.11 @ 8:51PM

Hey Jed,

What series of deferments did you use to avoid service in Vietnam?

PCP Smoker| 1.3.11 @ 9:35PM

Beautiful. Same argument can be made of the CIA recruiting out of the ivy league.

DSchoen| 1.3.11 @ 11:46PM

"The "academic standards" contention is risible. The Ivies indoctrinate their students in a left-wing ideology that will make their students' service in the military difficult for the young officers and all with whom they serve."

Sorry but if the Ivies instructors can't handle ROTC on campus then the Ivies instructors need to go.
This really is a parallel to DADT, except DADT was a policy created by President Clinton in 1993, specifically President Clinton Defense Directive 1304.26 AKA DADT.

The "intellectual purity" argument is laughable and childish.
Washington Post's Colman McCarthy has the “intellectual capacity” of a “fruit fly”.

"The best young officers are those who are well rounded in their academic and athletic training and their off-campus experiences. People such as they aren't likely to graduate from an Ivy League school where the unreconstructed hippies of the 1960s dominate the faculty and teach a political ideology that disdains America."

Seems to me I recall the FLOTUS (And she's right about this) on a “Crusade” about physical fitness and diet. True people at Ivy League schools do not have the “ well rounded in their academic and athletic training” as the ROTC does, perhaps they should, other wise they tend to become just “round”.

Bottom line, the military protects this country. We all pay for it with our tax dollars.

If the “Ivies” do not wish to provide training to ROTC/Military personnel then so be it.

Remove “any and all Federal money” including “Student loans” from the “Ivies”.

Problem solved.

Jeff| 1.4.11 @ 10:22AM

Let us pass a law that prevents the US government from recognizing the degrees of any university that bans ROTC .

Stuart | 1.4.11 @ 10:31AM

If the Congress had any guts, they would stop any federal funding to institutions that ban, or worse, treat the ROTC as second class. No federal dollars for research or student loans would shut down some of them, while the rest would demand the ACLU to defend their "worthwhile" projects to the subjugation of the military. Take their money away and positive results will follow.

Cole Sear| 1.4.11 @ 10:50AM

Jed? Still no answer to my question. What deferments (and how many) did you use to avoid serving your country in Vietnam? You were of prime draft age. I can only assume cowardice kept you from your duty.

James| 1.4.11 @ 12:10PM

Good discussion overall. The poster a few above this one points out that four Ivies never lost their ROTC units -- Princeton, Cornell, Penn and Dartmouth - and I would add that the others do host ROTC kids taking their courses at one of the hubs nearby. See for instance: http://www.yale.edu/rotc/ I repeat the underlying point many of the posters have made: it's ridiculous to write off the institutions that continue to attract many of the hardest-working, highest-achieving high school students in the country because the INSTITUTIONS got infected with a bad dose of anti-military bias during the upheaval over Vietnam. If their current managements truly want ROTC -- something I agree remains to be seen -- the military should get those units up and running asap. Also, these campuses are far more diverse in political outlook than elite-bashers want to make them. ROTC unites will give additional encouragement to the conservative students on these campuses. The more the merrier.

Randy131| 1.4.11 @ 12:29PM

I can guarantee that the Solomon amendment will be enforced in the future. If you've gone to college you should have learned that the United States is supposed to be a classless society, everyone equal under the law and in God's eyes. Because of the repeal of 'DADT', this principle of a classless society will be proven again by the 'Military Draft', which will have to be reinstated to meet the enlistment requirements needed to sustain our military commitments around the world, because of lack of volunteers do to that repeal. The old mot, " Beware of what you ask, for you may get it", will bring about the old Founding Fathers axiom of, 'All to serve equally for equality of a classes society ', which will bring many Ivy League college students into our military, who without the benefit of ROTC classes, will be lower-ranked officers and have to obey those who have had the benefit of ROTC classes from other colleges. Irony is a lovely thing, isn't it.

Syd Chaden| 1.4.11 @ 3:29PM

When I returned to the University of Illinois at the end of the Korean War, there was an ongoing program to take a test to avoid the military service draft, which was still in effect. Incredibly, students who passed the test were exempted from the draft. Every class that I attended included a University-sponsored lecture on the importance of passing the test, stressing that military service was inappropriate for superior people, such as the students, and should be performed by inferior lesser beings, such as farmers and laborers. It was important, they said, to preserve the national resource of superior intellects, so that they could continue to advance the world, and assistance was offered to students to help them prepare for the tests. The non-student lesser beings would be subject to the draft to defend the country, and, of course, to protect the superior beings. Those superior beings became responsible for education in America, which may explain the antipathy toward the ROTC program and the inability of 25% to pass the military exams. Interestingly, our military is the most capable in the world, and our education system is pathetic.

Calvin | 1.4.11 @ 4:01PM

I graduated Dartmouth in '72 and had several fraternity brothers in ROTC. They served honorably and I am grateful for their service. But mine was the last class with no women grads. The 1970 football team was the last to be nationally ranked and win the Lambert Trophy. The strike on campus did interrupt serious study for the spring term and replaced it with fatuous terms like "diversity" which were presumed to answer all questions. At my 25th reunion it seemed like all the "loyal sons of Dartmouth" were happy with their jobs in education or inside the beltway.
The faculty has now coopted the little power the alumni had by the old constitution. So I gotta ask myself, why would a serious or talented student go there at all, especially if military service or football held any luster?

Pyroclastic| 1.4.11 @ 5:06PM

Make the Poison Ivy League pass an ROTC fitness test before granting them the PRIVILEGE of hosting an ROTC faculty unit. If any of these elite centers of political indoctrination is unable or unwilling to emulate the pride and espirit Texas A & M has invested in its famous Corps of Cadets, they are unworthy of ROTC and should be told to go pound sand.

Petro| 1.10.11 @ 11:19AM

General David Patraeus went to Princeton after West Point. Just saying.

q-dof | 1.4.11 @ 5:30PM

جدار ناري , Anti-Virus , Anti-Spyware , Spyware , Anti-Adware , Adwre , Removal Tools , Firewalls

Mitch| 1.5.11 @ 4:25PM

General David Patraeus went to Princeton after West Point. Princeton also has an ROTC program as well. I believe this writer went to Georgetown Law, which I'm sure also tends to have a liberal bias. Let's be real, if the Ivies indoctrinate a leftist ideology then I'm sure the military academies indoctrine a right wing ideology. The point is, this writer needs to relax just a bit if he wants to make a stronger message. He is way too over the top and the main point of his argument (which currently as is seems to be that Ivy League schools suck and everyone that goes to them should never join the military) is lost in this endless rant.

Adidas | 8.11.11 @ 6:07AM

is good

Jason| 1.16.12 @ 4:22PM

"One Bullet Away" by Nathaniel Fick, a Dartmouth grad and Lieutenant in the Marine Corps. Great read!

العاب بنات | 4.10.12 @ 12:35PM

And zero money for any course in a department with "Studies" in it. Pro-rate it.

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