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Special Report
Breaking Their Silence
Some mainline Protestants are starting to care about persecuted Christians in Sudan, North Korea, and elsewhere.
In their tragic slide toward the far left in the 1970s and 1980s, America’s Mainline churches and their ecumenical councils largely lost interest in religious freedom and even the plight of persecuted Christians. Engagement with communist regimes and their allies took priority. In more recent years, liberal Protestants often have preferred similar collaboration with Islamist regimes rather open advocacy in defense of their Christian and other minority religious victims.
Of late, there have been some small, refreshing exceptions to the scandalous church silence about persecuted Christians, at least by the National Council of Churches, World Council of Churches, and the United Methodists.
In mid-October, Sudanese church leaders were hosted by the National Council of Churches (NCC) in New York. Not so many years ago, the NCC infamously hosted Fidel Castro, who assured a largely sympathetic church audience there was no religious persecution in communist Cuba. These Sudanese doubtless offered a very different message. Mostly from southern Sudan, which is majority Christian, these church leaders have survived decades of Islamist persecution by Khartoum. The Islamist regime’s war against southern Sudan, which the Bush Administration helped negotiate to a precarious truce, killed 2 million. In January, southern Sudanese will vote on potential autonomy for themselves, amid widespread doubts that Khartoum will peacefully respect the result.
American Evangelicals, Catholics, Jews, and human rights groups championed southern Sudan in the 1990s and early 2000s, which helped bolster the Bush Administration’s focus. But liberal religious groups, especially Mainline Protestants, were usually quiet. In the mid-2000s, liberal religious groups eagerly touted the plight of Sudan’s predominantly Muslim Darfur region in the west. Standing with Darfur’s victimized African Muslims against Khartoum’s more Arabized Islamists evidently did not discomfit liberal religious groups as much as supporting Christians against Islamists. Commonly, Khartoum’s Islamist motivation was ignored, and the Bush Administration was faulted for somehow failing to impose a peace in Darfur.
In an NCC news release, NCC chief Michael Kinnamon boasted the National Council of Churches has “for years” campaigned against the killing in Darfur, where more than 300,000 have died from Khartoum’s war. Oddly, the news release cited Darfur’s struggle between Khartoum-backed militias and “black Christian and animist Africans,” obviously confusing Darfur’s mostly Muslim population with southern Sudan’s mostly non-Muslim people. Kinnamon insisted the NCC’s concerns extend beyond Darfur to all Sudan. Referring to the Save Darfur Coalition, which an NCC official now heads, Kinnamon explained: “While this coalition started as a Darfur organization because of the genocide, our mission has evolved into an all-Sudan policy, including…the upcoming referendum.” He promised about the Sudanese Christians: “We support our sisters and brothers during this difficult and unpredictable period.”
Kinnamon referred to the NCC having passed a resolution about southern Sudan almost a decade ago, which vaguely urged “religious tolerance among Christians, Muslims and those practicing African Traditional Religions” in Sudan, without mentioning that the real problem was Khartoum’s Islamist ambitions. Now, the NCC seems more serious in its interest in southern Sudan. The Sudanese church delegation that visited the NCC in October included Sudan’s Anglican primate, two Catholic bishops, and the head of Sudan’s council of churches. They rightly warned, as the NCC news release noted, that “the safety and human rights (including the right to freedom of religion) of southerners living in northern Sudan [i.e. mostly Christians] are in jeopardy before, during and after the referendum.”
Interestingly, the delegation also included Samuel Kobia, a Kenyan Methodist pastor who recently departed as head of the Swiss-based World Council of Churches, which, like the NCC, rarely evinced interest in southern Sudan under Kobia or his predecessor. The WCC’s new chief is a Norwegian pastor who is steering in a somewhat different direction. An October WCC news release refreshingly spotlighted the plight of an escaped North Korean Christian who addressed the recent evangelical Lausanne Congress in South Africa.
The 18-year-old North Korean woman reportedly moved her audience to tears when describing how her father, a former aide to Kim Jong-Il, became a Christian and has probably been executed by North Korea on charges of treason and espionage. “This is often the fate of confessing Christians in North Korea,” the WCC news release accurately admitted. In previous years, the WCC and other Western ecumenical groups have fawningly visited Pyongyang, obligingly visited its show churches, and blamed America for North Korea’s poverty, with nary a word about religious persecution.
“Brothers and sisters here in this place, I humbly ask you to pray that the same light of God’s grace and mercy that reached my father and my mother, and now me, will one day soon dawn upon the people of North Korea, my people,” the young woman implored, as the spellbound audience erupted into applause.
Meanwhile, the United Methodist Church’s lobby office denounced China for banning Chinese Christians from attending the same evangelical conference in South Africa at which the North Korean woman had spoken. “No government should have authority over the church,” a spokesman with the United Methodist Board of Church and Society asserted. “Thus, the actions by the Chinese government to restrict travel and intimidate Christians are an offense against the basic rights of all humanity.”
The Methodist agency, with the collaboration and probable prodding of a United Methodist evangelical group, even commended the International Day of Prayer for the Persecuted Church. It urged prayers for “brothers and sisters in Christ” who are “suffering through persecution in places like Saudi Arabia, China, Pakistan, Vietnam, Burma and Iran.” Also citing Sudan and North Korea, it noted that Christians in these countries are “economically and politically marginalized, physically brutalized, and even killed simply because they follow Jesus.”
Over 20 years ago, purported North Korean Christian clerics dispatched by North Korea’s communists were hosted by the United Methodist lobby office on Capitol Hill to gain legitimacy for North Korea’s communist tyranny. Today, that office, and other Mainline Protestant agencies that once routinely apologized for North Korea, are now advocating on behalf of persecuted Christians in North Korea and elsewhere where they are imprisoned and martyred by communists and Islamists. The new found interest in religious freedom may be incremental, but it is progress.
About the Author
Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.
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Yosemeti Sam| 10.29.10 @ 7:29AM
KISS:
Do not count on any churches - READ the Bible.
Not some hip-hop version either.
But a centuries validated King James version - IMO.
Read it front to back - come to your OWN interpretations.
A FUNDAMENTAL precept - The First Commandment.
Not to be confused with the 1st Amendment.
Then let the chips fall where they may - eternally.
To each their GOD-given own yet answerable to beliefs.
Ryan| 10.29.10 @ 8:23AM
That...didn't make sense.
Yosemeti Sam| 10.29.10 @ 10:24AM
Well, then, Pilgrim - parse out for me that which you deem nonsensical.
Ryan| 10.29.10 @ 12:25PM
1. "Do not count on any churches." How is that reconciled with the command to " Forsake not the assembling" (Heb 10:12)
2. What's more important - the Gospel or the KJV?
3. "Come to your OWN interpretation" - how does that reconcile with 2 Peter 1:20 - (no prophecy is of private interpretation) - keep in mind that I'm not a Roman Catholic on this interpretation, just that your statement seems a little TOO independant - and that too often such interpretation takes scripture too far out of context...
4. "To each their GOD-given own.." is the primary one...
It just seems that you're rambling here and also has nothing to do with the article at hand...
Ken (Old Texican)| 10.29.10 @ 1:27PM
Yosemity Sam,
You sound like the best of Southern Baptists. (good)
One doctrine that Baptists have ALWAYS held is that of the "priesthood of each believer".
ie:
Each Christian has the right, the ability, and the RESPONSIBILITY, to approach God's own throne via praying in Jesus' name.
further,
We each carry the responsibility to intercede on behalf of our fellow human beings there, Christian or not.
We believe each Christian has the responsibility to interpret the Bible under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
We try to avoid "proof texts" but rely more on the whole of the New Testament...(especially the words written in red.)
So,
Sam's words above are very simpatico with us.
(Smile)
When anyone begins a sentence..."Baptists believe... "
They are invariably wrong. Boy, talk about "nuanced". We are that.
Each of us also take to heart the Apostle Paul's words..."We all see through a glass darkly..."
If in fact homosexuals are "born" that way, or "bent" that way, we pray for them for the heavy burden they bear.
Personally, I shall pray for their happiness, both here and in eternity.
Yosemeti Sam| 10.30.10 @ 12:51PM
" ... also has nothing to do with the article at hand...."
Nothing to do with the article at hand?
" Of late, there have been some small, refreshing
exceptions to the scandalous church silence about persecuted Christians, at least by the National Council of Churches, World Council of Churches, and the United Methodists...."
Does the word FRACTIOUS sound faintly familiar? Where is the congruent WHOLE
then among divergent church-delivered DIVINE MESSAGES?
I offered the King James Bible version as a READable GREAT PRIMER - as a WHOLE
to understanding DIVINE MESSAGES.
THEN, one is armed to sit in any pew and 'validate' on-the-fly any church-offered 'understandings' of - Scripture.
This is my personal CORE precept.
That is how I contextually used the words - READ, IMO, OWN, FUNDAMENTAL and GOD-given.
P.S.
Thanks, Ken and Margie, for your thoughtful insights.
Ryan| 11.1.10 @ 10:31AM
The article isn't about theological divides, it's about left-of center churches finally saying something about religious persecution.
"Does the word FRACTIOUS sound faintly familiar? Where is the congruent WHOLE
then among divergent church-delivered DIVINE MESSAGES?"
Seriously...that doesn't seem to make sense.
Margie| 10.29.10 @ 1:26PM
Yosemeti Sam makes complete sense to those "who have ears to hear!"
To his point of each of our "God-given own, yet answerable to beliefs~"
I found an excellent steatement by a Dr. James Leo Garrett (a Theologian of the Bible believing
Christian persuasion)~
"More positively, religious freedom is consistent with the Biblical concepts of man’s answerability to God; of faith as persuasion; of the suffering of Jesus as the Messiah; of the church as a gathered, witnessing, servant community; of the limits to the competence of the state; and of the lordship of Christ and the sovereignty of God."
And so, I say bravo to Yosemiti Sam! Because after all, the only real "freedom" man has... is whether or not we choose to serve Him.. or not.
"And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for Him." Heb. 9:27 & 28.
Let's Persecute the Faggots!| 10.29.10 @ 9:54AM
Here's a new hero for you, Yosemite Sam-- a real true-blue faggot hater:
Clint McCance!
Clint McCance, an Arkansas School Board member, recently launched an inflammatory anti-gay tirade on Facebook that ran the gamut from basic bigoted slurs, to encouraging "fags" to commit suicide and announcing that he'd disown his own children if they were gay.
This is a man all readers of AmSpec can celebrate. American Spectator needs to write a feature story on this outstanding American.
Anderson Cooper (another faggot) interviewed him yesterday. You can see the interview on Fox News.
Why, why, why?| 10.29.10 @ 9:56AM
Why don't we all kill a queer for Christ!
Gran Torino| 10.29.10 @ 11:17PM
"Why don't we all kill a queer for Christ!"
O.K. , sounds good. Kill them fudge packers!!!
Doctor Right| 10.29.10 @ 10:05AM
Please note this Leftwing fool's repeated use of the pejorative term for homosexuals.
It's indicative of the Left's propensity for [Insert]-baiting when they're feeling desperate, and need to score some quick points.
Thus, the promulgation of a complete myth - that Conservative HATE gays - along with the utilization of a phrase that is considered inappropriate and offensive by most reasonable people.
You see, the Left LOVES to be seen as the CHAMPION of the downtrodden - gays, blacks, "the poor", etc - as long as it serves their purposes. In reality, they'll throw these folks overboard anytime it suits their purposes.
Thus...these supposed champions of gay rights will gleefully expose and destroy the career of any gay Conservative simply by exposing him as gay - a tactic they like to pretend to abhor.
In short, the left is dispirited and desperate. Their Hopey-Changey Empire is about to crumble, and they know it. So, like little babies having a temper tantrum, they're lashing-out.
Actually, it's like little narcissists having a temper-tanntrum...But that's another story.
And so, you little leftwing troll, just remember...We're not laughing with you...We're laughing AT YOU.
And on Tuesday, we're going to CRUSH YOU.
GenXer| 10.29.10 @ 10:31AM
I think "Let's Persecute the Faggots" makes a legitimate point: TAS readers--identifying themselves as "Chrischuns"-- frequently make homophobic statements in their posts.
Doctor Right, don't pretend you haven't seen these remarks. The word faggot appears on a regular basis on this rancid rag.
GenXer| 10.29.10 @ 10:34AM
One more thing:
Generation Xers and those age groups succeeding us are gay-friendly, and we are getting a little tired of geezer homophobic pronouncements.
Ryan| 10.29.10 @ 12:26PM
Here's a problem - can I believe - as scripture states - that homosexuality is a sin, and not be mean about it and still not be labeled a homophobe?
Todd from Gen Theo Sem NYC| 10.29.10 @ 1:38PM
Greetings from The General Theological Seminary:
Yes, you are a homophobe. Here's why:
The most common reference against homosexuality comes from a story in Genesis. In Chapter 18 of the book, we see God about to destroy the evil twin cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. God sends two angels to warn the one godly family of the imminent demise of these cities, only to have the locals demand that these two angels, who appeared like men, come out so they could have sex with them. Of course this didn't please God very much. However, Lot, the father of this one so-called godly family, does an interesting thing. In chapter 19, verse 8, the Bible tells how Lot offered to give his virgin daughters to these men so that they might rape them instead. Is this how God wants us to protect ourselves from the "homosexual agenda," by offering our virgin daughters to be raped?
What do you think, Ryan?
Likewise, in the Old Testament Book of Leviticus, we're told it is wrong for a man to be with another man. However, within the same book we are also told that it is wrong to eat pork.
Ryan, tell me when was the last time you had bacon. According to the same Old Testament book that condemns the practice of homosexuality, you will be condemned to hell for eating a BLT sandwich. However, Ryan, you would not be committing sin if you still owned slaves, since Leviticus tells us such activity is okay. According to the Bible, slavery is okay.
Agree with this, Ryan?
Let's leave the Old Testament and look at Romans, or more specifically from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, both written by the Apostle Paul. He offers a list of sins that will keep a person out of Heaven. Among them is homosexual behavior. However, also listed among these is adultery. And in Luke 16:18 Christ defined a man or woman who has divorced and remarried as also being an adulterer.
Ryan, tell me this : how many of your church's members have been divorced and remarried? Did your church perform the weddings for these adulterous members. If homosexuality is to be condemned, should not these fellow church goers also be condemned? What do you say, Ryan?
I suggest you go back to your church and apply the same rules to your adulterous remarried members as you apply to homosexuals. What? You won't do it? Why on earth, then, are you picking on homosexuals? Are you selecting one sin as being worse than another? Why are you and your fellow church members allowed to commit some sins yet feel free to condemn someone else's?
I could go on and on and on, but enough for right now. I think I've made my point.
Ryan| 10.29.10 @ 3:48PM
First, you haven't proven anything as to whether or not homosexuality isn't a sin (and have actually more proven the point) - you've simply tried to point toward other sins. Homosexuality is both condemned in scripture AND it is NEVER condoned.
Second, there is a distinctive difference between the OT MORAL law and the OT CEREMONIAL law. Simply because we don't sacrifice sheep anymore doesn't mean that homosexuality became alright at the Cross. Usually people point to this argument to excuse sinful behaviour.
Third, I don't disagree with you about the issues particularly of divorce and greed within our churches. It doesn't mean that homosexuality isn't a sin. It's just less "socially acceptable" and an easier target.
Fourth, I believe in Total depravity - that it is our nature to sin. In that sense, sometimes particular sins are almost part of our spiritual "genetics" - and there is less of a choice than we imagine with how we sin. It holds true for the greedy, the adulterous, the homosexual, the idolator, and everything else under the book. At times, even under God's grace, they are hard to control.
Troy| 10.29.10 @ 8:45PM
The verses you skipped over: Romans 1:26,27 make it clear that The Holy Bible considers homosexuality a sin. You also skipped Romans 2:1 which would have gone along with your point about how wrong it is to consider homosexuality a worse sin than any other. The real problem though, is pride. The liar and the thief consider their actions sins in others even though they don't feel bad about doing it themselves. Today's homosexual culture has made it a point to be proud of their sin. A celibate homosexual is not commiting the sin of pride.
Miss NoFoolAmI| 10.30.10 @ 10:52AM
Ryan and Troy,
Uh huh.
You can take the most ignorant and violent verses from the bible and believe they are the word of God if you like.
You can believe the world is flat and supported by pillars, as those primitive desert men who "wrote" the bible believed. And you can believe that God told them the world is flat .
But you must admit that if the bible is the infallible Word of God, then it stands to reason that it would not contain factual errors of science , yet it is chock-full of them, and you know it.
Besides the flat-earth blunder, there are many, many more--far too numerous for me to print in this space.
As for the bible's "laws" against homosexuality, the primitive men who wrote these laws knew nothing about genetics, psychology, or any other modern science.
Homosexuality is genetically determined. It is not a choice. We do not "choose" to be gay. We know we are different at a very early age (I knew when I was five years old). The chemicals in our womb determined not only our sex but also our sexual orientation.
The Bible is full of contradictions, errors, and verses that are full of hate.
There are terrible texts in the Bible which have been used to justify such "sins" as overbreeding, degradation of the environment, sexism, child abuse and anti-Semitism. These are the flawed human responses of primitive desert dwellers--all men-- to perceived threats.
You will go on believing homosexuality is a "sin," but you will be wrong. It is no more a sin to be homosexaul than to be heterosexual.
Yes, the bible is a terribly flawed book, and much of it has little relevance to modern times, with the exception of Christ's ethical teachings, which will always be valuable for moral guidance.
Toto| 10.30.10 @ 11:09AM
A sensible resonse to Ryan and Troy, but they will not listen.
This topic comes up over and over again and again, and the same old bigots spout the same old trite that is as outdated as belief in superstitions.
Some people are not going to open their minds to modern science. They are determined to remain willfully ignorant and full of resentment of those of us who use our brains to search for truth.
AvengingAngel| 10.31.10 @ 1:16PM
Dear MissNoFoolAmI,
You mentioned the "flat-earth blunder" as being in the Bible. Are you stupid or just plain ignorant? It's not in the Bible, you moron. The Catholic Church believed that crap (that the earth was flat) and persecuted Galileo because he believed that the earth was round. The Catholic Church believes all kind of crap that isn't in the Bible (the doctrine of purgatory, etc. etc.). If only the Church would have read the Bible in the time of Galileo, and if only you would actually read it instead of trying to disprove it, then you both would know the verse that says, "IT IS HE (GOD) WHO SITS ABOVE THE CIRCLE OF THE EARTH, AND IT'S INHABITANTS ARE LIKE GRASSHOPPERS..." ISAIAH 40:22.
It's time to wake up, little grasshopper. When God calls homosexuality an "abomination", He isn't mistaken. Is it natural for a man to shove his penis up another man's rectum? Call us "homophobic" all you want (I prefer "faggotphobic"), or let's just call it "THE WISDOM OF REPUGNANCE."
34AndOnTheFloorLaughing| 10.31.10 @ 2:02PM
Dear Angry, Foaming-At-The-Mouth Avenging Angel,
I can quote the bible better than you:
Isaiah 11:12
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH. (KJV)
Revelation 7:1
1 And after these things I saw four angels standing on FOUR CORNERS OF THE EARTH, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. (KJV)
Job 38:13
13 That it might take hold of the ENDS OF THE EARTH, that the wicked might be shaken out of it? (KJV)
Jeremiah 16:19
19 O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ENDS OF THE EARTH, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. (KJV)
Daniel 4:11
11 The tree grew, and was strong, and the height thereof reached unto heaven, and the sight thereof to the ENDS OF ALL THE EARTH: (KJV)
Matthew 4:8
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; (KJV)
Looks to me like the wruh wruh wruh writers of the buh buh buh bible thought the world was fluh fluh fluh flat. Flat! Got it?
And as for Matthew 4:8, astronomical bodies are spherical, and you cannot see the entire exterior surface from any place.
Stop being so mean and spread a little happiness, you grumpy old thing.
AvengingAngel| 10.31.10 @ 3:12PM
Dear 34AndOnTheFloorAndLaughing,
After I read your post I went to the mirror to see if there was foam. (There wasn't.) I guess I was a little mean when I asked Miss NoFoolAmI if she was stupid or just ignorant and when I called her a moron. Sorry, Miss NoFoolAmI. I repent. However, homosexuality IS a sin. The Bible clearly says so. The Apostle Paul asked the Galatians if he was their enemy now because he had told them the truth.
As far as happiness goes, "Happy is he (or she) who does not condemn himself in what he approves." Romans 14:22. If you're happy being a lesbian or homosexual, then go for it. From what I've heard, though, there is a lot of suicide among gays. The main thing, though, is this. God will be our judge (not me or you), and His word clearly says what it is He will be judging - liars, sodomites, murderers, thieves. fornicators, adulterers, drunkards, rapists, corrupt politicians, etc. etc. In the 60's, the message was, "If it feels good, then do it!" "There are no moral absolutes!" But if we are to believe the Bible, there ARE moral absolutes.
"Looks to me like the wruh wruh wruh writers of the buh buh buh bible thought the world was fluh fluh fluh flat. Flat! Got it?"
You want me to quit being mean and grumpy. OK. Maybe you should try being a little less condescending and a little less proud :
"I can quote the bible better than you."
Peace, Brother.
StillOnTheFloor| 10.31.10 @ 3:25PM
How can homosexuality be a sin when it is genetically determined?
It looks like to me that you probably enjoy hating others. I know your type. Smug in your righteousness. Some of the righteous people I have known were, beneath the skin, mean as hell, and you're one of them . Your entire family is most likely poisoned by this kind of hatred of humaninty.
I thank God that my family is a little more civilized--more ethical and more moral in their world view.
See rt's post below. Of course, you want to hate, so go ahead and hate, you grumpy old hater.
AvengingAngel| 10.31.10 @ 9:52PM
StillOnTheFloor,
"I know your type".
You don't know me at all. I don't hate the homosexual. I don't agree with their lifestyle. It's repugnant to me. God is the one who said that it is sin. Is He mean? Maybe you think so, but He is love and loved us so much that He sent His son to this earth to die for us. That's not hate. He loves us, but He wants us to be holy, as He is holy. Homosexuality is not genetically determined. It's a choice. If I decided to be an adulterer, could I say that it's genetically determined for me to be that way? I don't think my wife would buy it, and your's probably wouldn't either.
In the 60's it was said, "I'm O.K., You're O.K." Well, I'm not O.K. and you're not O.K., You said that I was "smug in my righteousness." No I'm not. I know I'm a slob and so are you (the difference between us is that I'm a conservative slob and you're a liberal slob). If it wasn't for the blood of Jesus and His grace, we'd all be toast.
The father of a friend of mine was an alcoholic. When I told him that his dad needed to repent, he cussed me out and looked like he was close to punching me out. He screamed, "It's a sickness! It's not sin!" Well, if it was a sickness, like diabetes or breast cancer, would God say that drunkards are not going to heaven? (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). Would He say in the same verses that the homosexual is not going to heaven if in fact it was genetically determined (i.e. God made the homo a homosexual). No, He would not. No one is going to hell because they had committed the sin of diabetes or the sin of breast cancer. These are sicknesses. Drunkeness is a vice - not a sickness. Again, like the apostle Paul said, "Am I your enemy for telling you the truth?"
Speaking of hate, Jesus said that "The world hates Him, becauses He testifies of it that it's works are evil." John 7:7. Because He told the world to repent, He was spit upon, beaten and crucified. You probably would like to do the same to me for speaking His word.
Last but not least, you said:
"I thank God that my family is a little more civilized--more ethical and more moral in their world view."
Question: Who's "smug" in their righteousness? Is it you?
Ryan| 11.1.10 @ 8:30AM
One, you really didn't address any of the points that I brought up directly. If you don't accept the Bible as an authority on our discussion, I can understand that, but directly attacking it rather than addressing the points that I brought up directly is a poor way to argue. You're almost more attacking me than anything else.
Anyway, the problem with the genetics argument - please look into it. It's inconclusive at best; and I NEVER stated that you didn't have a choice in being homosexual. The environmental factors around us tend to shape us beyond our control as well at times.
Here's a question - were you a child of divorce, abused, neglected, or simply had a bad or distant father? More often than not, I think that we tend to see something occur emotionally that turns someone away from homosexuality beyond their control that isn't necessarily genetic.
It also doesn't make it right in the eyes of God.
Unfortunately, all the good arguments in the world probably won't convince you that I don't hate you or homosexuals.
I will say this - focusing on Christ's ethical teachings is all fine and good, but what is the point of ethics if there is no high Authority who sets a consistent standard of right and wrong - and what of Christ's statements about more controversial matters?
rt| 10.30.10 @ 2:01PM
Ryan,
When did you decide to be straight, Ryan?
For anyone out there who is still dim-witted enough to believe that you aren't born gay, but that you in fact CHOOSE your sexuality, this is a subversive question.
Please, do tell, Ryan. Provide exact dates if possible, as it seems that this would be something important enough to record/remember; like a wedding date.
Ryan| 11.1.10 @ 8:31AM
It's not about being dim-witted. It's about looking at the evidence and seeing that stating "homosexuality is genetic" is a vast oversimplification and possibly wrong.
*8*on the plate| 11.1.10 @ 1:34PM
DYNAMITE POINT, rt, but Ryan is one of those biblical literalists whose brain is closed forever and ever. Amen
(and ever)
Patrick| 10.29.10 @ 12:44PM
If you are so bothered by this, why are you here? Since only geezers are on here, just let them die of old age and prance along in your dawning utopia.
Doctor Right| 10.29.10 @ 10:05AM
Please note this Leftwing fool's repeated use of the pejorative term for homosexuals.
It's indicative of the Left's propensity for [Insert]-baiting when they're feeling desperate, and need to score some quick points.
Thus, the promulgation of a complete myth - that Conservative HATE gays - along with the utilization of a phrase that is considered inappropriate and offensive by most reasonable people.
You see, the Left LOVES to be seen as the CHAMPION of the downtrodden - gays, blacks, "the poor", etc - as long as it serves their purposes. In reality, they'll throw these folks overboard anytime it suits their purposes.
Thus...these supposed champions of gay rights will gleefully expose and destroy the career of any gay Conservative simply by exposing him as gay - a tactic they like to pretend to abhor.
In short, the left is dispirited and desperate. Their Hopey-Changey Empire is about to crumble, and they know it. So, like little babies having a temper tantrum, they're lashing-out.
Actually, it's like little narcissists having a temper-tanntrum...But that's another story.
And so, you little leftwing troll, just remember...We're not laughing with you...We're laughing AT YOU.
And on Tuesday, we're going to CRUSH YOU.
79andfine| 10.29.10 @ 10:45AM
Yeah, when Christians aren't being persecuted, you can bet your bottom dollar that they're the ones doing the persecuting.
I just read about Clint McClance, and he--you guessed it--identifies himself as a Christian--or "Chrischun," as GenXer sarcastically calls these wolves in sheeps' clothing.
I may be old, but I am not a bigot.
Boston Brahmin| 10.29.10 @ 11:17AM
Don't forget that it's the Christians in many African countries--38, to be exact-- who are persecuting gays, calling for the death penalty.
Persecuted? Damn right. Thousands of African gays fear for their lives.
When it comes to discussing Christians in Africa, Mr. Tooley, let's consider Uganda. This country is currently debating anti-homosexuality legislation the likes of which makes Attila the Hun seem like the grandfather from those 1980s Werther's Original commercials. There's discussion about the death penalty, jail terms, and even imprisoning straight advocates of gay rights. All of these draconian measures supported by "Christians."
Indeed, African Christians and Muslims are persecuting their own people because a minority has sexual and affectional orientation directed at members of their own sex.
Christians do not always stand for good; on the contrary, they do much evil in this world.
Ryan| 10.29.10 @ 12:28PM
I would agree with you there - there are too many who call for the death penalty for homosexuality. It's a sin, but that law was done away with in the New Covenant.
Margie| 10.29.10 @ 1:37PM
Amen to that, tis' truth.
Jesus died for the homosexual Sin as well as all Sin.
"For our sake He made Him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God." 2 Cor. 5:21.
BUT! This then means that we are obligated to give Him praise, to live for Him, because we were "bought with a price."~
"you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." 1 Cor. 6:20.
He calls on us to repent of our sin-life.. and be saved. In order to have the RIGHT to enter into His Heaven:
"But to all who received Him, who believed in His Name, He gave power to become children of God; who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." Jn. 1:12 & 13.
"For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only Son of God." Jn. 3:16-18.
Margie| 10.29.10 @ 1:43PM
Say Boston guy~
Christians do no such thing! Either you are fabricating this story~ OR~ these people who are calling themselves by His name, that is~ Christian~ are NO Christians!
Anyone who takes the name of Christian, which means follower of Christ~ would be like Him. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world~ and that type of sin He forgives!
Gran Torino| 10.31.10 @ 11:43PM
79andfine,
"I may be old, but I am not a bigot."
bigot: a person who is intolerant of any creed, belief, or race that is not his own.
You don't sound very tolerant of Christianity. Why? Because some, in the name of Christ, burned others at the stake (I'm talking about the "Holy" Inquisition. You know, when the Catholic Church persecuted the true believers of Jesus Christ). So now what? You're going to paint us all with the same brush? The Catholic Church is classified as a "Christian" denomination but it isn't. Officially, they believe in Jesus, but if you study a little bit, you'll find that they're hope is in Mary and their own good works.
No, my friend, you obviously have your own style of belief and are not tolerant of Christianity. You are, in fact, a bigot. At 79 years old, you don't have any time to waste. Jesus wants to save you. Forget about all the rest of that crap. His blood can wash away all your sins.
Alan Brooks| 10.30.10 @ 5:23PM
The hand of God destroyed the Confederacy.
The Confederacy cursed in both Heaven and Hell.
Amen.
AvengingAngel| 10.30.10 @ 9:22PM
QUOTES FROM ALAN BROOKS
“But am so glad McCain isn't president, I wish Obama would get both the Peace Prize and his likeness on Mt. Rushmore. I mean it.”
“But you are doing the correct thing-- fight the Muslims, and we will fight Christian fundamentalists.”
“God is a woman, and Jesus is Her daughter.”
“God is a necessary fiction, because most people are superstitious.”
“God was a woman, and Jesus was gay: he hung out with male disciples, he wore a gown, and he said to forgive thine enemies.
Now, if that's not being a metro, then what is?”
Joe Namath| 10.31.10 @ 3:19PM
Alan Brooks,
What are you "amening" about? According to the quotes of your's, you don't even believe in God! Are you bipolar, Alan?
Ryan| 10.29.10 @ 8:25AM
Thanks AS for this perspective - maybe even once in a while a mainline denomination gets something right.
I think prayer and concern for the persecuted Church - mostly in Africa and Asia - may go hand-in-hand with spreading the Gospel. Religious freedom is needed in ALL areas, and those are the areas where real persecution is happening.
Harry the Horrible| 10.29.10 @ 9:03AM
We need to teach these people to "maxim their oppressors as a Christian ought to do..."
believer| 10.29.10 @ 9:52AM
I remember when Clinton was in office and the African Christians were being slaughtered by the millions, There was a call for Bill to arm them so they could protect themselves. His answer, theres to many guns in Africa now. typical Liberal thinking, If the Christians in Africa were armed there probably would be no need for intervention by other countrys.
MikeBee| 10.29.10 @ 10:05AM
Mark Tooley is correct. It is about time that the plight of Christians living under Sharia law and other oppressive regimes was made public. Today, especially in either Communist regimes (Korea, China) or in places where Sharia law is established, Christians suffer horrible treatment by the governments, and from fellow citizens who are allowed by their governments to practice unspeakable atrocities on Christians. And this is not because Christians are running around in their countries shoving Bibles in people's faces. No, it's simply because they exist.
The other side of this coin, however, is that, the more Christians there are who are martyred for their beliefs, the sooner those areas of the world will become Christian. The blood of martyrs always cries out to God for justice. This is happening right in the middle of Muslim countries. Large numbers of Muslims are converting to Christianity in places like Iran and Iraq. Long ago, European countries persecuted Christians; eventually Europe became a largely Christian area. This will occur in the middle East, also. You can keep up with some of what's going on at www.vom.com (Voice of the Martyrs). SAT-7, a Christian broadcasting company in the middle East, is reporting numerous conversions to Christianity and its message of peace and love, right in the middle East. The times, they are a-changin'.
Petronius| 10.29.10 @ 10:06AM
Lawlessness is so prevalent between the Sahara and the Transvaal that the mission sent by President Bush led by Jack Danforth under UN auspices didn't last a week. We now have an administration as well as a media establishment who adore African dictators so long as they are not Pik Botha or Ian Smith. Go figure.
Godfrey| 10.29.10 @ 10:59AM
The fact is that for all their faults (and who is faultless) Roman Catholics,Jews and Evangelicals have striven against slavery and religious bigotry while Mainstreamer have attacked Israel,supported Sadaam Hussein and have loved their enemies more than their friends.
Ken (Old Texican)| 10.29.10 @ 1:32PM
Folks,
Please see Old Texican and Margie above.
filmaki | 10.30.10 @ 10:46AM
That...didn't make sense.
Jesus loves you.| 10.31.10 @ 1:40PM
To address the topic of the article - leftist churches do nothing that is not self-serving. That they appear to be giving a sop to the persecuted after years of complete disregard means that there is something else in play. It must be an attempt to make an end-around the conservative church to capture the allegiance of these desperate people by displaying disingenuous friendship and concern. This would deprive the conservative church of a venue for its spirit, and will probably bring the persecuted church into the camp of the leftists, thereby exposing these innocent people to religious socialism and all the religious foolishness of those who pretend to be Christian (WCC, etc.).
To address the string of posts on this article - The lefties posted early and often digressing instantly to their favorite attack -topics, and those supposedly on the right followed their string like little puppies. This display showed the tactics of the left (digression, and drive-by verbal bomb throwing), and the so-called right posting here showed they had no ability to adequately respond or counter the foolishness. Thus the left will continue to use these successful tactics.
Brooklyn Dave| 11.1.10 @ 1:06PM
I am glad this is happening. Just very recently, a Chaldean Catholic church was blown up in Baghdad. Evangelicals have been making some noise about these things in the past. There is a group called Voice of the Martyrs lead by a guy I think named Wurmbrand. The only fault I see with his publication is that he concentrates only on persecuted Evangelicals and ignores the Catholic/Orthodox Christians who form the bulk of Christians in Muslim countries.
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