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Car Guy
Embarrassing Volt Charges
It’s an electric car that’s reliant on a gasoline engine.
GM apparently has some ‘splainin to do — and not just to Lucy, but also to the American taxpayers who have bankrolled its operations since that terrible I’ve Fallen — And I Can’t Get Up moment back in late ‘08.
Reason?
That new Volt all-electric car you’ve been hearing so much about — and which GM has been touting as an example of its resurgent We Get It attitude — is apparently a con.
Or at least, a semi-fraud.
GM had claimed the Volt would be what amounts to a completely electric car, driven entirely by its electric motor and battery pack. The Volt’s small on-board gasoline engine would only operate as a kind of take-it-with-you recharging unit, power alternators (like a home generator) but not the car’s drive wheels.
The concept was innovative. Other electric cars have been tied down to a fairly small radius that extends only as far as they can travel before having to turn back in time to make it to a recharging station for a top-off. So far, this has meant a real-world operating range of about 75 miles or so under ideal conditions — sunny, warm weather and don’t use the accessories (AC, power stuff) too much.
Under less than ideal conditions — cold weather especially — and if the car has to deal with hills or you use the power accessories — your actual mileage will vary.
This has been a major limiting factor in the commercial viability of electric vehicles since the 1970s and all the way through the '90s, when GM gave it an earlier go with its EV-1 electric car.
As cool — from a technological perspective — as these things are, a 50-70 mile range is cutting it too close for most people. Toss in a $40k price (for the Volt) and recharge times measured in hours rather than the minutes it takes to gas up a standard car — and it’s no tough nut to see why electric cars have been little more than costly curiosities up to now.
The Volt was supposed to change all that by effectively eliminating the range problem. By carrying its power source (for electricity) with it rather than being tied to a fixed charging station somewhere, the Volt promised the same convenience and ease-of-use as a standard car.
Now comes the catch.
Turns out the Volt’s gas engine does more than provide juice to refresh the batteries. It also drives the wheels — though GM never mentioned this during the year-long build-up to the car’s launch and, indeed, touted precisely the opposite, claiming the Volt’s gas engine did not directly power the car at all. It just charged up the batteries.
Well, not quite.
At high speeds (highway speeds) the Volt’s gas engine does provide direct supplemental boost. Which means the Volt is more dependent on gasoline — that elixir of all that is evil — than GM was claiming.
It’s not a grotesque lie — but it is a significant fib that GM’s been caught peddling.
About the Author
Eric Peters is an automotive columnist and author of Automotive Atrocities: The Cars You Love to Hate (Motor Books International) and a new book, Road Hogs.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (87) | Leave a comment
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Alphred| 10.14.10 @ 6:21AM
Eric,
There is no mechanical or hydraulic link between the engine of the Volt and its wheels.
If the drive cycle is short enough, and speeds are kept below the legal maximum, the batteries can be recharged externally and the engine need never run.
That said, this is a very expensive solution, and I join you in lamenting the fact that my tax dollars will be providing the subsidy.
Paul from SA| 10.14.10 @ 10:59AM
"At high speeds (highway speeds) the Volt's gas engine does provide direct supplemental boost."
How? I'm confused about this. Is there a hidden one-gear transaxle?
Ollie| 10.14.10 @ 12:07PM
The vehicle most likely uses a CVT(constantly variable transmission) similar to what snowmobiles use. The device uses 2 pullys with a connecting chain or belt and electronically changes the diameter of the 2 pullys to change the gear ratios.
Mark James| 10.15.10 @ 9:24PM
NO. What they are saying is the gas engine supplies the added electrical current needed to power the vehicle at speeds above 40 MPH. That means it's just a hybrid like all the rest of them. The electric car is impractical and shall remain so for another 20 years.
Chuck Sampson| 10.17.10 @ 10:09PM
Exactly, as Thomas Edison once said, "The battery is the greatest fraud ever perpetrated on the American people." Or like the guy in my high school safety class said, " Remember kids, one coffee can full of gasoline equals two sticks of dynamite." You just can't beat them fossil fuels for efficiency and power density.
Tomas| 10.14.10 @ 4:55PM
Why is it that every radical environmental solution is turning out to be - at the least - an unworkable technical failure, or - at the worse - a complete scam?
Hint: everything is driven by politics, not by science.
-
Emma| 10.14.10 @ 5:02PM
I would guess it's because the primary motivation behind so many of these yahoo projects doesn't actually call for solid engineering. The primary motivation calls for defeating common sense and greasing gubmint-money flow with the goal of feeling superior to others. Your choice of the word "radical" to describe the project explains the core problem.
Brian Richard Allen | 10.14.10 @ 11:04PM
In winning the Cold War the greatest modern era president, Ronald Reagan, broke the war-profiteering "Democratic" potty's military-industrial-complex rice bowl. The one about which President Eisenhower had warned us and by way of which, using the Soviet boogy-man as the catalyst, that fascist gang transferred Trillions to itself, to its mobbed-up union maties -- and to its corporate cronies.
The more modern version of the vast RICO-racketeering organized criminal enterprises that prefer we know them by their street name: the "Democratic" National Socialist (Fascist) potty, has co-opted the "civilian" coming-ice-age environmental global-warming climate-change global-climate-disruption coming-ice-age clean-and-green-complex to its lizard-brained looting.
Some things never change.
All that much.
Gerald Stephens| 10.17.10 @ 2:28PM
Time for the massacre!
chevy chase| 10.15.10 @ 11:11AM
Your premise is flawed, as is this article, because you ignore the results of Motor Trend's recent test of the volt.
The Volt got up to 127 mpg, and even under extreme conditions got 75 mpg.
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/1.....n-the-rea/
The 127 mpg figure was achieved over a variety of Los Angeles city streets, canyon roads and highways. During the trip, the car ran out of battery power and the gasoline engine quietly turned on to give it more juice. Not to the wheels, but to the battery. If the car gets up over 70 miles per hour, then the ICE will send a small amount of power to the wheels, but by doing so it makes the car more efficient.
They have nothing to be embarrassed about.
Ed H| 10.15.10 @ 11:37AM
"They have nothing to be embarrassed about." is a blatant lie. If they, and you, aren't at least embarrassed by stealing our money to make this sow's ear into something closer to a silk purse, you have a serious problem with reality. If they really had nothing to be embarrassed about, the car would sell on its own merits, no subsidies (of any kind, including "loans" to GM) needed.
Chuck Sampson| 10.17.10 @ 10:22PM
"If the car gets up over 70 miles per hour, then the ICE will send a small amount of power to the wheels, but by doing so it makes the car more efficient."
Using the gas engine to provide power to the battery cannot make the care more efficient, it can only make it less efficient. How does the gas engine convert mechanical power to electrical power? By spinning a generator and then rectifying its output. Both conversions, mechanical to electrical and AC to DC dissipate, or waste, power. It may not be much because there have been a lot of great advance in power electronic technology. Particularly in the area of battery chargers and motor assist starter alternators. But the bottom line is still the same, you can't get more power out than what you put in any system. This is a law of physics that no one can repeal, no matter how altruistic their intentions.
Mark James| 10.15.10 @ 9:26PM
"Hint: everything is driven by politics, not by science."
Nor by the free market
Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 10.14.10 @ 6:58AM
Another collectivist experiment courtesy of your tax dollars gone awry.
Red Bubba| 10.14.10 @ 7:10AM
Ha! What this article overlooks is that for the price, you could get 2 Ford Foci. That means with the Fords, you'd burn twice as much gas and come out exactly even with the Volt.
The Volt is an eco-correct product of the social program known as GM. Ford is a breakaway capitalist corporation.
GreyLion| 10.15.10 @ 4:28PM
Amen bub!!
GO Ford!!!!!
Mike D.| 10.14.10 @ 7:22AM
Well then, I guess the only solution to this electric car dilemma is not to solve the problems with the electric car but instead tax and legislate the gas car off the market so the serfs are FORCED to buy it. All, of course for our own good. Another benefit of stuffing the peoples car down the throat of the people is limiting their ability to travel beyond the distance to work to produce tax revenue for the ruling class and their Marxist/utopian dreamworld.
John Navratil| 10.14.10 @ 11:42AM
That's it! An electric Trabant!
Ed H| 10.15.10 @ 11:51AM
Perfect! I had been thinking that the "People's Car" (Volkswagen) TDI actually gets at least 10 mpg more than the EPA "official" figure (over 50 mpg), but "electric Trabant" is perfect.
As a measure of where we started, and how far we have come, in 1985 (for the mathematically challenged recent public high school graduates, that's 25 years ago) I bought a new Ford Escort Diesel (IIRC it cost me just over $5,000.00). When held to the (then) legal speed limit of 55, the car got 52.5 mpg in my daily commute of 100 miles (2 people), with some 20 miles of that in-town driving. Obviously I would have gotten less with more in-town driving. At 65 mph (Texans weren't too happy with the "double nickel") the car got 47 mpg. I'm always amazed when people trumpet the wonderful mileage of hybrids, mid 30 mpgs in highway driving. My car did far better 25 years ago. I was truly sorry when my then current teen driver totaled the car. And happy that Ford produced a car which allowed her to walk out with only scratches.
P.Smith| 10.14.10 @ 7:23AM
Dear GM:
You have put our great country in mortal danger by the precedent you and others have set, and my hope is that you fail. You could have done things correctly, and lawfully, and declared bankruptcy and reorganized as a new and stronger company, but instead chose to go against normal business precedent and capitulated to United Auto Workers and the Obama Administration. You could have honored your contractual agreements, but instead you violated the rule of law and used the force of government to demand that your shareholders waive their rights of ownership and turned over your company over to a band of thugs. I don’t wish to see people lose jobs and I don’t want to see an industry that I adore fail, but your behavior has left me gravely concerned about the future of this country that I love. So I hope you fail in a colossal manner, so that others will learn of the stupidity and foolhardiness of what you did.
I refuse to buy a product from a company that has been subsidized by the federal government. I don’t care how good your cars are now, I don’t care what a great value they are for the money. I don’t care what stupid or smart scheme you come up with. I will not buy your products ever, until everything has been made right. When you have been reorganized in a proper fashion under the rule of law, and are owned by an individual or consortium that understands the basic concepts of a free market, then maybe I’ll consider. One more thing GM, there are more folks who think like me than you realize.
P.S.
To those who say,” Well if you buy a foreign car they are subsidized too”. I say, “I don’t give a damn what another country does to mess up its economy; that is their business.”
Respectfully,
P.Smith
TennesseeVolunteer| 10.14.10 @ 7:44AM
We traded our Yukon by GMC for a Honda Pilot. Though we loved the Yukon, my wife and I were not about to support a company that defaulted to its bondholders by governmental fiat.
We tried to buy a Ford but they have obviously decided to stick it to the customer when looking at Expeditions. All of them that we could see had ridiculous option packages that ran the price up over $50K.
Hopefully, Ford will smarten up.
SC Mike| 10.14.10 @ 9:51AM
Ford is acting smart. The Expedition’s high price generates the profits it does not get on the Focus and Fiesta models. It’s that mix -- having to sell three or four small cars to offset the higher fuel consumption of the cars like the Expedition that folks really want -- that allows it to avoid penalties / fines in place under the CAFE standard. The Corporate Average Fuel Economy rules are an abomination.
Old Soldier| 10.14.10 @ 2:25PM
Had the same dilemma last year - refused to even look at the Chevy Traverse, decided on the Mazda CX-9.
Bubba| 10.14.10 @ 10:20PM
With you on this - was half-considering a GM until the gov't stepped in. Back to the drawing board.
PS: I worked on a marketing project for Ford's EV in the 90s. Same issues - long recharge, short mileage. And of course all the eco-conspiracists saying big auto and oil were subterfuging the marketing of great batteries that would allow 200-300 miles. Same old, same old.
mike| 10.14.10 @ 10:15AM
I have had exactly the same thoughts since day #1 of the takeover. Buying GM or Chrysler is handing money directly to some faction of the Dem / Lib establishment.
JShizzle| 10.14.10 @ 2:28PM
I simply can't say it any better! I have owned 3 different models of Pontiac Grand Prixs....but am not even considering a GM for my next car. I could say the same for Chrysler, but they haven't made a car I would consider buying for a decade or more.
glassfinger| 10.14.10 @ 2:32PM
Ford isn't a foreign company...God bless'em
WayneH| 10.14.10 @ 8:24PM
I've always bought GM, but as with others above, will never do so again.
Brian Richard Allen | 10.14.10 @ 11:07PM
.... I refuse to buy a product from a company that has been subsidized by the fe'ral government ....
Good luck finding one.
kevin| 10.15.10 @ 3:19AM
Thank you for your thoughtful and insightful comments. Well done.
WRTolkas| 10.14.10 @ 7:56AM
Gentlemen,
On the truth meter (one an outright lie and ten the Gospel Truth), what number would you assign to this article? If Mr. Peters is indeed truthful (an eight, nine, or ten) this is devastating to GM and by implication the current, and temporary, administration.
Remember to Vote this November 2nd,
WRTolkas
expatyank| 10.14.10 @ 5:46PM
Go Green - recycle congress!
Curly Smith| 10.14.10 @ 8:17AM
It's the Chevy Volt for Edison's sake! How far should one be able to travel in a single Volt electric car? The standard light bulb is 100 volts and you're expecting to travel around the world in a one Volt car?
jrjr| 10.14.10 @ 5:28PM
"... standard light bulb...." You obviously meant to say "CFL bulb," didn't you? Incidentally, my CFLs which were on sale do not give out the lumens expected.
Denver Todd| 10.14.10 @ 8:41AM
Tell me, what will be the Volt's resale value after the warranty runs out? I propose--people, listen to this, it applies to all high tech products which are too expnsive to repair with cash--zero.
The Big E| 10.14.10 @ 8:44AM
If you want to buy a car that gets great gas mileage and doesn't cost a lot to buy then you need to forget about the over-teched modern crap and get something considerably older - like an old Honda CRX, or Volkswagen Rabbit Diesel (especially the rare but unbelievably efficient pick-up version). Those cars, and others from the 1980's got better gas mileage than even the much ballyhooed Toyota Prius and can be had today for a pittance. Plus, though the CRX was by no means fast, it was so nimble and responsive that it was a hell of a lot more fun to drive than a video game, which cannot be said of so many modern cars.
TexasEngineer| 10.14.10 @ 9:55AM
My dad's company car back in the late 70's was a VW Rabbit diesel. He got 65+ mpg and had an aux. fuel tank installed. He could drive from Dallas to New Orleans....run around NO and southern Mississippi for a week...drive back to Dallas and still have enough fuel for a couple of days worth of local driving. The damned thing was given to my wife with 130,000 miles on it and she put another 75,000 on it before we sold it.
Old Soldier| 10.14.10 @ 2:26PM
My brother just bought a Jetta diesel - 40+ mpg every tank.
kevin| 10.15.10 @ 3:25AM
Respectfully, you are wrong about the CRX. I had the SI version in college. 125MPH and 36MPG with moderate freeway/street driving. Sold it at 236,000 miles to a buddy who blew it up racing his buddy at 250,000 miles. Great Car. High mileage back then was due to lower emisions standards.
donserge| 10.14.10 @ 9:19AM
My vehicle is an F-150....what would happen to the driver of a Volt if we (heaven forbid) collided?
Paul Milenkovic| 10.14.10 @ 3:15PM
The estate of the decedent takes you to the cleaners.
kevin| 10.15.10 @ 3:26AM
you could carry the driver and the Volt home in the bed of your F-150. Don't forget to charge him a freight and taxi service fee.
Steve A| 10.14.10 @ 9:21AM
I will never purchase a GM product so long as I continue to operate & /or pay for a vehicle. You are a certified idiot if you feel good about yourself tooling around in a Volt. There is no financial, environmental or safety advantage.
Stan REdmond| 10.14.10 @ 9:37AM
PERFECT example of a government command and control economy. A product no one wants, that doesn't do what it says, costs 10 times more than it should, and requires endless tax dollars to keep going to provide jobs to govt officials that should be unemployed.
Pelosi can't run a car company BUT she can run the entire health care industry. Wonderful.
And join the boycott of GM. I will never ever ever buy a GM product. Now if only I could stop my tax dollars from supporting that useless bankrupt company I would be thrilled.
Frank Drackman | 10.14.10 @ 9:41AM
I'll consider an electric car when:.....
Air Force One Stops Burning Kerosene/The President(Peace be upon Him) stops sending Secret Service Agents on his Cigarette Runs in 93 Octane-Burning-8,000lb- Luxury- Sedans- with- Kevlar- Reinforced- Doors-/AlGore drops under 300lbs/
Frank
SC Mike| 10.14.10 @ 9:44AM
The Volt seems to be a hybrid, little different from a Prius. It costs more and appears to do less.
michigander_sandusky| 10.14.10 @ 9:55AM
The Volt is for dolts! The only legitimate reason for purchasing one would be that it some day will have real value a la the Edsel.
RichTex| 10.14.10 @ 10:17AM
Come on, people! Don’t you remember that what counts with liberals is only their good intentions, not their results?
Redstateboy| 10.14.10 @ 2:56PM
Bingo! and you could argue with a linghini-spined limp-wristed Liber-ul until the Cows come home and they couldn't refute this.. Where is Liberalism working?!!!? Where?!?
Pete| 10.14.10 @ 10:21AM
Wait until the government comes out with a $21K subsidy to buy one...if you can prove favored ethnicity and residence in a blue state.
Cabermon| 10.14.10 @ 10:39AM
The Volt reminds me of another piece of government-sponsored technology: The Czechoslovakian vacuum cleaner smuggled through the Iron Curtain by the Festrunk brothers (Dan Ackroyd & Steve Martin: Two Wild and Crazy Guys!) on the old SNL. It was huge, noisy, and didn't suck: It would only collect dirt when you poured it into the hose!
Paul from SA| 10.14.10 @ 11:02AM
Not to worry. The gov't will be buying these cars for its fleet, without any rebates, AND the gov't will be purchasing GM shares for its IPO and will pay top dollar. I know it doesn't make any sense. The gov't will be buying its own product.
The net result: a massive transfer of money from taxpayers to Democrat unions.
PolishKnight| 10.14.10 @ 11:47AM
I was thinking that a similar technique would have been a wonderful solution to the Microsoft anti-trust lawsuit during the 90's.
Microsoft has peddled it's horrid operating system using a combination of natural market conformity and subtle behind-the-scenes maneuvers to drive competitors out of the market (such as those who develop software for apple or linux).
Rather than sue MS, the government could have easily opened up competition by simply mandating Apple and Linux be used in offices and schools where it's cost effective (which is much of the time). Do you need to pay $400 for an overbloated word processor or can you make do with OpenOffice? How many office workers use nothing but web, spreadsheet, and word processing?
With millions of users established in schools and in government, application developers would quickly follow suit and the MS monopoly would be broken.
Paul from SA| 10.14.10 @ 12:10PM
Hey, that's interesting, except I'm against the gov't mandating any product. I'm a software developer and we hate MS. We're sick of their operating systems.
I recall that when the Clinton admin. went after MS in the late 90's, it signalled the start of a downturn -- the Dow dropped and it was a valid leading indicator.
jrjr| 10.14.10 @ 5:34PM
You just had to toss MS into this Volt fiasco. Okay, I hate Ms also and just had to install 46(?) plugs today. When will it ever stop. I think that the number of files in my computer, which number in thousands, are mostly MS fixes and attempts (repeat -- attempts) to curb intrusion into PCs.
Ned| 10.14.10 @ 1:34PM
Silly, silly Paul! OF COURSE the government will give itself the rebate for fleet purchases of Chevy Dolts! Why ever would they not? It's FREE MONEY!!! I mean, what could possibly be wrong with government issuing rebates to itself, to buy cars from a company it took over and owns? I think that's covered in chapter 12 of "Obamanomics: Welcome to The 1930's" (Axelrod, Geitner and Obama, Harcourt Brace, 2009)
Paul from SA| 10.14.10 @ 10:33PM
I was trying to figure out who would benefit the most with or without a rebate. But I can see your point. They could raise the rebate to $30,000. Then the gov't could pay $80,000 for each vehicle and create more jobs. Heck, they could just double the rebate every year and it will double car sales and create more jobs. What an idea!
booom| 10.14.10 @ 11:33AM
It's gonna be interesting so see these things li batteries go up in flames. and after the battery does wear out, assuming that it doesn't self combust first, how much will it cost to replace it.
tdiinva| 10.14.10 @ 12:35PM
P.K.
I bet you never used Linux. It is my primary operating system and I will tell you that almost every week Linux sends out security patches which is about the same frequency as Windows 7. The reason that Apple doesn't patch its holes on a regular basis isn't because they don't have holes they just let them accumulate. Apple users are suckers who don't realize that the only reason that hackers aren't running roughshod over their computers is that hackers don't cares about Macs. They do care about iPhones and iPads with there totally permeable web browsers.
Now back to the topic.
I am not at fan of either GM or the Volt but this high dungeon about the use of the gasoline engine for power as some sort con job is ignorant.
The mileage you will get with the Volt is highly dependent on your driving profile. If you have a short commute then you will get very high gas mileage from the car because you will seldom use any gasoline on a day to day basis. If you use the Volt on gas engine only indeed you will get the 35mpg figure. But if you have a profile that involves frequent use of the engine then you shouldn't have the bought the car in the first place.
If your sole criteria for selecting a car is cost effectiveness then you wouldn't buy new at all and if you did buy new the most expensive car you would consider is a baseline Honda Fit. Cars like the Prius and VW TDI wouldn't even be on the radar.
The Volt market will be a high income liberal or techie car. It's funny how people make fun of the 41K Volt and think it's cool to buy an $80k Viper that will be driven on Sundays at 65mph never approaching its 180mph top speed.
Pat| 10.14.10 @ 12:58PM
Well, so what, according to many mainstream media “automotive” reporters like Phil LeBeau – “the Volt is new automotive technology”, according to Phil, “ain’t it cool, oh wow, I’m so excited I think I just had a rather embarrassing accident”. And before you start wondering if a grown man like Phil still plays with matchbox cars, you must accept the fact that many Americans, coincidentally mostly Obama voters, really like the Volt because it’s our government taking your money and doing what these Americans know is the right thing to do. Sure, it may seem strange to you when many New Yorkers who don’t have a driver’s license claim the Volt is their car, maybe even America’s car.
And, you’re no doubt wondering, if they can’t legally drive how many of these New Yorkers will actually buy a Volt? Well, that’s not the point you see. The point is building the Volt was the right thing to do for our planet, even if Washington had to re-animate GM’s corpse with your money. The singularly important point is the Volt is not one of those huge, scary SUV’s the bible thumpers and gun owners in Texas or Wyoming would want to drive, it’s the kind of car a New Yorker would want to drive, if they personally had a driver’s license that is.
Short cruising range, long forced idle times during recharging, dependency on gas stations, high sticker price – none of that matters. What matters is that New Yorkers, Bostonians, Philadelphians and San Franciscans are deeply suspicious of Americans who don’t live in a tiny 900 square foot apartment on the 12th floor of a 40 story high rise and which rents out for a modest $3,500 a month. There’s something unnatural about not riding to work underground surrounded by other miserable strangers – let’s face it, we weren’t meant to live in wide open spaces and drive huge vehicles just because we feel like it. But, since they don’t drive, they won’t be shucking out $40 grand for a car – it’s enough that you SUV drivers were taught a valuable lesson, so ha-ha on you Yukon Denali, Suburban, Ramcharger, gun owning mutants.
Seldan| 10.14.10 @ 1:09PM
I'm rather partial to the Baker Electric. Plenty of Electics are good for forklifts etc. Theu are just not good on the road. What I don't understand is why people don't believe in G-d believe in Govt and GM
Marc Jeric| 10.14.10 @ 2:58PM
A strong union? That means a dead or dying industry - see auto, steel, electronics, textile, apparel; look at the labels on your shirt, socks, pyjamas, underwear, slacks, sweaters...Now 70% of cars you see on the road are foreign-made. Construction steel is almost 100% South Korean or Japanese. My computer has 7 components and a pad for the courser - only that plastic pad is made in the USA. GM is destined to die at the end - unless we had completed the communization of America. And let us not talk about the government employees unions where outsourcing is impossible; education disaster, Amtrak, Post Office...
Anyone remembers the TV ditty "Look for the union label"?
All government employees unions should be outlawed as being a criminal conspiracy against the people.
uncle curmudgeon| 10.14.10 @ 4:25PM
So the "electric" car has a gasoline engine which produces the electricity, and helps the thing along if it isn't on a flat test track. Isn't that kind of like covering all open land with enormous bird-and-bat shredders and then building a lot of coal fired plants to make electricity when these fiendish devises are not shredding these voiceless victims of speciesism? Oh yeah! That's right! I'm a racist.
wodiej| 10.14.10 @ 5:28PM
Ah, another failed socialist scheme.
mmm| 10.14.10 @ 5:33PM
bought one of those famous 1000 dollar toilet seats and hammers government is famous for when my car needed seals and gaskets on a brake cylinder, and four little rubber assemblages cost 1100 rather than what looked like 1.10 worth of materials............felt ripped off as i had just put those seals in months before at a cost of 38 dollars that i knew was a rip off...............
jrjr| 10.14.10 @ 5:43PM
Crybaby! Just kidding. I am from a time in the past when things were more crude. But the local hardware or auto store had a $5 - $35 part that could fix the problem. Now it is throw-it-away junk. For example, a $300 - $400 vacuum sweeper (Sears says it is theirs) had a wire or wire connection in the handle-tube assembly that apparently is broke - yes, a wire. $100. I hate this crap. Others say I love my vacuum. Love ?
mm| 10.14.10 @ 5:36PM
shall not buy another car from those people...........
mm| 10.14.10 @ 5:49PM
oops ..forgot to mention that it was not the illegal alien doing the work who got that 1100 bucks for at most was a 100 job............
Black Eagle| 10.14.10 @ 5:52PM
Any purely electric car will be an environmental disaster, save for congested inner-city locations where it may eliminate gasoline fumes. But will we then have to stumble over multiple extension cords going out from homes and businesses into cars? With spiking electric bills and more brown-outs due to overtaxing the electrical grid, which was never designed to provide for such usage? And the fuel used to generate the electricity will be subjected to efficiency losses which, by the time you actually use the electric power from the car batteries, make it far less efficient than if you simply burned that fuel inside the car itself. Purely electric cars are a bad idea, unless and until some really significant basic science breakthroughs can give us 100% efficient batteries of ultra-high capacity, and also new electric motors of ultra-high efficiency. Meanwhile, hybrids are viable and the costs can be lowered with new battery technology. But they are not any better in gas mileage overall than the most highly efficient purely gasoline engine powered cars.
Richard Baker| 10.14.10 @ 8:09PM
mmm:
The toilet seat to which you refer is a large fiberglass cover for the P-3 Orion anti-submarine aircraft's internal toilet system. I saw one when I was in a Navy Reserve Patrol Squadron years ago. The cover cost about $500 because Lockheed was the only source for that item for the Navy and so the unit cost was high, as a result. The toilet system was installed because of the P-3's long loiter time while hunting Soviet submarines in the ASW mission. Plus, the item had to be airworthy for use in aircraft. Been reading tales about this item for years.
tdiinva| 10.14.10 @ 9:10PM
The head in a P-3 is a portapottie and if you use it you clean it. Nobody uses it. If you have to pee you use the designated sonobuoy container,
The $1500 toilet seat and $100 wrenches were just covers for funding special navy programs. (see the book Blindman's Bluff) It took a lot of stones for the Admirals to go up in front of Congress and defend the absurd cost to protect the programs.
Felix| 10.14.10 @ 8:18PM
The Volt is what happens when government forces a solution upon us that natural market forces would solve given the proper timing. Government itself is the cause of high oil prices, as the dollar has become worthless and 90% of the worlds oil is now controlled and owned by governments. Due to this there is certainly a market for an electric car that works. Advancements in nanotechnology will soon bring about higher current capacity batteries that charge in minutes instead of hours. These however, are a few years away. The free market and scientific advances will give us good electric cars. No government decree can change the laws of economics and physics.
Tony in Central PA| 10.14.10 @ 8:47PM
I just cancelled my order with the dealer for the Volt Rube Goldberg edition.
Dandapani| 10.14.10 @ 8:57PM
I wasn't planning to buy a Government Motors Volt before this "news" was released; still not planning to buy a Government Motors Volt afterwards, either.
Thom| 10.14.10 @ 9:19PM
I did the “math” on the Volt, Prius and any nominal $20,000 high end economy car based on a nominal ten year/120,000 mile life on the batteries and using a nominal cost of fuel for each and did not even include the 7-10 KWH charge to recharge the batteries of the Volt each and every day/night, the higher insurance cost, the higher property value taxes and even if the Volt never used a drop of fuel it wouldn’t pay for itself at 120,000 miles even if you got the full value of the Tax Credit.
Given the IRS says the average Federal tax paid for an average income of $71,000 is $6400.00 the expected tax credit on this thing is only going to be realized by individual incomes well over $80,000 a year or married incomes well over 100,000 a year. Such income level people aren’t typically worried about the MPG benefits of such a small car. Also given that the gas only version of this car is priced at $17,000, what you have is a $24,000 premium to make up between the same model of car with two different power plants and energy sources. There is no possible scenario under which this vehicle makes any sense at all if it starts using fuel. If you look at where that $24,000 cost is concentrated (look at a Prius battery cost and then the Telsa cost for a guide) you will see that there is no way possible for this cost to make substantial reductions because everything involved in this vehicle outside the automotive part and the battery/motor parts are mature technology. The same battery technology that powers tens of millions of new laptops and alike and hasn’t come down in price per watt enough to even mention isn’t going to every become economical. Even with the possibility to double capacity of Lit_Ion batteries this is still true.
Using my mix of driving and annual distance, I could get by on about 40% of the time purely electric use but would have to charge it every night to do that and even more on the weekends to get max benefit. The other 60% is going to be on fossil fuels and suffer the same cost per mile as any other fossil fuel vehicle. Given the average age of passenger cars in this country and miles kept on the road this vehicle more so than the Prius even will reach zero resale value before it ever reaches the end of life on its batteries. People with more money than brains and wanting to make a political statement will lease this thing. Complete idiots will attempt to buy this thing.
Based on the engineering I’ve seen on the Volt what Eric is saying here isn’t quite correct. The Volt’s motive power is all electric battery all the time. What does happen is the gas engine/generator has to come in well before it reaches full discharge (about 30% above from what I remember) in order to maintain the reserve battery power at such a level it can still get most of the power of the electric motor. The gas engine will not recharge the Volt by design and is less powerful than the output of the electric motor thus when you get into that discharged state your peak sustained power can drop below what the gas engine can put into the batteries under heavy load. Long grades uphill under load with 4 people and cargo on board with the AC on come to mind. Around the University campus should never encounter this problem however.
Driving a 1989 Japan design with 227,000 miles and getting in the upper 30 mpg, almost 40 mpg even today on the road just adds insult to injury for the Volt type car. I can’t wait for the first lawsuit from someone that trips over the cords leading out of the College Dorm rooms across the parking lot to keep the car topped off so as to save the planet. If Government Motors wasn’t going to sell the gas only version to subsidize the full cost of the Volt version I wouldn’t give the Volt one model year life. Of course when you have free taxpayer fund so subsidize a losing business model like this you can afford such white elephants until the funds dry up.
leroi| 10.14.10 @ 9:58PM
All that being said, the concept seems pretty good.
Instead of having a gasoline motor drive the drive wheels directly, electric motors drive them.
The electric motors are powered "at first" by the battery charge, then, by a small gasoline engine that functions purely as an electric generator.
Kind of like the auto gasoline version of diesel electric locomotives.
jstwndring| 10.14.10 @ 10:46PM
The problem with this car, or any green answer to a question no resonable person ever asked, is that it is rooted firmly in political activism. There is absolutely no market demand or need for this car whatsoever. There is no conspiracy to kill this car. The market has spoken. WE ARE NOT INTERESTED. And therein lies the problem for Dimocrats. They cannot compete with free market choices. There ideas are not rooted in practical reality. So, their solution? Legislate us into compliance. If they don't we can happily ignore their stupid ass as if they don't exist. Unfortunately for us real people, the Dims won't tolerate being ignored, so, they'll take our free choices away until we behave the way they want us to. Tyrants they are.
TOVROSE.com | 10.14.10 @ 11:28PM
How is this news unexpected? Even NPR (National Public Radio), did an expose on this vehicle back in '08. They interviewed alternative smaller companies that actually do produce fully electric vehicles that are self-charging (and some not), and that have incredible range and versatility.
What do you call it when your government sinks your tax dollars into a known failure, when viable proven successes are swept under the rug, ignored and purposely not funded?
RBM| 10.15.10 @ 12:50AM
I see allot of discontent in these posts. I for one, do not care for GM or their products never will (I base my facts on engineering principles not on someone’s feelings), but GM is limited on what they can actually produce and provide for public consumption. Batteries are the key product. I have personally been working on a viable energy storage medium, but with only a few useable products out there you are limited. A DC powered vehicle is quite possible, albeit expensive and possibly very unsafe, but some form of energy has to recharge the batteries. Most of our electricity comes from petroleum fueled generators. Nuclear would be cleaner and we now have very effective monitoring technology out there. ALL of the current battery technologies are very dangerous during their discharge and charging cycles, especially in the hands of an ignorant public.(people could die very easily from burns and explosions). All Li-Po batteries will explode if charged at incorrect voltages and not aloud to “Rest” between cycles. Plus, the quality control of overseas companies is marginal at best. You cannot compare one company’s product to the next even though they claim to be the same they are not, and they seem to not care. You cannot control everything that comes into this country and you would have to rely on there statements as to the effectiveness of their product. The bottom line would be the bottom line. Overseas quality is far lower than ours in America and the price shows it. I do not buy overseas batteries or components because their quality control and/or their engineering are still several years behind ours. (I know that statement will make someone upset) Li-Ion is the best for energy storage but has no life (cycles) in them. NiMH batteries, have excellent power storage and discharge capabilities but are very heavy. They, in my opinion, are the best for long term usage and power, however, they can explode and leak acid all over the place if they are exposed to a dead short. All three types require different types of charging methods as well. Both the Li-Ion and Li-Po batteries cannot be recharged while being discharged. They also cannot be overcharged or over-discharged without causing a fire or explosion.
It now gets very complicated.
You could charge a NiMH battery while you are discharging it, but that would greatly shorten its life span. NiMH batteries are expensive. Heat is a major killer of NiMH batteries. Lead Acid batteries are very heavy and again, unsafe as they release extremely toxic gases during discharge and charging cycles that can explode and/or kill you plus they are VERY corrosive and if you are in a collision you could be covered in Sulfuric acid in seconds. You would have to build a car out of all stainless steel (heavy) or all fiberglass (weak and unsafe). The Prius is a fine car for those how know nothing about the reality of electric vehicles. Its technology is very similar to the vehicles Ford produced in the early 1980’s for So. Cal. Edison and a few private owners. It seems to be passed around from Manufacture to manufacture. The Chevy Volt is no different and brings absolutely NOTHING new to the table (it is better looking than the EV Escort that Ford provided 25 years ago). I could discuss all of the Pro’s and Con’s of electric vehicles but it could take years. I am a car guy and I believe it is the way of the future and I embrace it. I still race an electric vehicle and surprise the crap out of most when I open the hood of my 87 Ranger and they see an electric motor under the hood. Right now I use 20 NiCad batteries from the Edison Company that are sold only to the Railroad for the signal department.(NiCad’s have their own set of problems) They are used in rural areas where there is no or limited availability of electricity to operate the signals and crossing arms. Some of these batteries have been in use for over 50 years. (they use solar power to recharge) That technology (NiCad) is there but certain political groups think we are too stupid to use this technology safely. Has anyone really looked at the problems with fluorescent light bulbs? (can you say Mercury poisoning?)
We are America and we will fix this, and we are fixing it. Soon others will copy us again but this time we Americans will say enough is enough, back off let us fix your mess then enjoy our fruits, AGAIN! If we just put all of our resources back into this nation for just two years, send no money anywhere else, we could be on top again helping others less fortunate including our own.
Heywood| 10.15.10 @ 5:50AM
I've always wanted a car equipped with a sewing machine motor hooked to a lawn mower engine--can't be beat when tanglin' with those 18 wheelers on the interstate! *rolls eyes*
publius| 10.15.10 @ 8:57AM
True, if you regularly drive over 100 miles or so a day, the Volt makes no sense. However, the average commute is well within battery range. The gas motor is only for the occasional road trip to grandma's and to reassure you won't get stuck somewhere. BTW, IIRC maintaining a vehicle at highway speed only takes 10 hp or so. So it makes sense to use the gas engine for this.
Brian B| 10.15.10 @ 12:51PM
--I am not at fan of either GM or the Volt but this high dungeon about the use of the gasoline engine for power as some sort con job is ignorant.--
A "high dungeon" is pretty much the perfect oxymoron isn't it?
Dudgeon maybe?
Tony in Central PA| 10.15.10 @ 2:34PM
Tax Credit here = bribe.
Angela| 10.17.10 @ 12:46PM
We are suppose to give up cars that run on gas for cars that run on batteries charged/recharged by gas.
jgo| 10.17.10 @ 1:40PM
"When held to the (then) legal speed limit of 55, the car got 52.5 mpg in my daily commute of 100 miles (2 people), with some 20 miles of that in-town driving."
Our 1982 Honda (under $10K) got 35-40mpg, and was still getting 35mpg in 2002. The trouble is that it was kind of small, and a little under-powered. (They doubled the maximum power of the 1983 model by introducing turbo-charging.)
I thought that by now we'd surely have something in the mini-van size that would get 50mpg at about the same price. But the R&D hasn't led that way, and now I'm realizing that most of the "efficiency" wasn't from a better power-train, but merely cut-backs in strong heavy metal and other "real" materials and substitution of breakable plastics.
A car whose wheels are driven by electricity, backed by batteries, recharged by diesel or gasoline engine is the very definition of a hybrid. That's exactly how diesel-electric locomotives get such great power and gas mileage. You run the engine at its constant optimal rate and draw the power from the batteries as varying load requires. Makes perfect sense.
What I don't understand are these over-priced hybrids they're pushing on us, now, that have both the liquid-fuel engine and the electric motors driving the wheels more directly. Sounds like it would have the same problems connected with the old biblical prohibition against hitching a goat, mule or ox and a KY thoroughbred to the same cart.
The leftists' end-game is that we're supposed to lose the liberty of individually owned and driven cars. Period.
7d7| 10.20.10 @ 10:14PM
So the Volt is a fraud . . . just like the POTUS that championed it. What a surprise.
As the last poster noted, the endgame is to restrain our freedom of movement and herd up back into cities . . . cities which are almost without exception controlled by politicos of the Democrat persuasion. It's not about the planet, it's about their power.