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The Nation's Pulse
Kids Are All Right
Picky, self-obsessed, divorce-scarred, childless women haunt our cities.
My girlfriend and I are acquainted with no fewer than two-dozen forty-something women, all of them successful, well-educated, charming ladies. They are librarians, museum curators, teachers and the like. Besides these similarities, they hold two more characteristics in common. They are all single and childless.
Any of these women would have made fine partners and wonderful mothers. They could have borne bright, responsible, successful children who could have contributed greatly to society. But for various reasons it wasn’t to be.
Most spent their twenties working on themselves, attending graduate school and later focusing on their careers. By their thirties, they found themselves in long-term relationships that ended after a half dozen or so years. Their stories are strikingly familiar. Our friend and her partner moved in together. Years passed, until one day he (or she) decided it wasn’t working for him anymore. It took five to ten years to realize this, sure, but better to recognize it now than to make the mistake of getting married. He packed his things and by lunch he was out of her life forever.
Now, at forty, our friend finds herself alone, wondering where the time went. It seems like only yesterday she was a freewheeling twenty-something with nothing but time. She is now in full panic mode. Her biological clock is about wound down. As if to illustrate her desperation, she goes in for speed dating, but there are slim pickings for a forty-something woman. She is introduced to a forty-six-year-old divorced real estate agent and something about him rubs her the wrong way. Maybe his cocky attitude, which seems absurdly out of place at speed-dating night in the dingy basement of St. Ambrose Church. But even now she cannot help being picky.
She goes on this way for a few more years, then, with a sigh, accepts that her childbearing years are behind her. She settles into her spinsterhood and adopts another dog.
ALL OF THESE women desperately want a husband and children, but most are deeply afraid of marriage having grown up in an era when nearly half of all marriages end in divorce. Most come from divorced families themselves, and as a consequence put marriage off as long as possible. But life passes quickly. For middle class women, the window for children is a narrow one lasting no more than twenty years. If she spends half of those years cohabiting and that relationship comes to naught — for few educated, middle class women copy their lower class sisters in bearing children out-of-wedlock — she has thrown away her chance.
If these women are sad or depressed at missing out on motherhood, they hide it well. Most have bought homes (statistics show that single women buy far more homes than single men), they have good jobs, they are involved in their churches and communities, and they live active social lives, and not just online. There are exceptions. One of our friends, a single 41-year-old Ivy League graduate, could not take the gray winters here in St. Louis and recently picked up and moved to Austin, Texas, hoping to start over yet again. She finally found a way to make the rest of us envious of her.
MEANWHILE, IN OUR inner-city neighborhood, there are countless poor, young, single mothers with more children than they can handle. If, as evolutionary biologists believe, the purpose of life is simply to pass on one’s genes, they are Darwinian superstars. One neighbor started having kids at fourteen. She is now 26 and on her ninth child, and probably will continue to have kids until Mother Nature in the guise of menopause mercifully cuts off her supply line.
It is hard to imagine that few if any of these children will be successful. They attend (sporadically) the worst schools in the world. They have no decent male role models. You will not find a single book in their homes, only the constant din of the television set. For the African-Americans among them, they are taught that being successful is “acting white.” Sad, but in all likelihood, they will end up just like their parents: single mothers with too many children, forced to work two minimum wage jobs and still unable to make ends meet, or, worse, like their irresponsible, absentee fathers.
What’s missing is a sense of balance. My accomplished friends seem to have traded children for success, while my ill-fated neighbors seem to have traded children for failure. As those of us who are parents — and neither great successes nor great failures — know, it was a bargain you never had to make.
About the Author
Christopher Orlet writes from St. Louis.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (620) | Leave a comment
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Appleby| 9.30.10 @ 7:05AM
And then there are us successful, comfotable, happy spinsters who realized very early in life that marriage was not for us, and were relieved to reach the age when people stop asking *Why DONT you get married?* and start asking *Why DIDNT you get married?* We thank God for Liberation that finally made it acceptable for women to live the spinster life, and financially possible to be comfortable therein.
After watching my sisters endure divorce after divorce, all of them nasty and contentious, I really cant see what I am supposed to have missed.
Paul H| 9.30.10 @ 7:18AM
"....I really cant see what I am supposed to have missed."
I'm sure thats true.
Best regards,
Paul H.
carnot| 9.30.10 @ 9:40AM
yes...she did miss the whole point!!!!
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 8:32AM
No, you and Paul missed HER point.
Latina| 10.3.10 @ 6:04PM
No, you and Appleby missed the point entirely, but she's not a loser like you.
scythe| 9.30.10 @ 7:19AM
That makes sense that you can't see what you have missed. You never had it in the first place. You were your only universe. There is nothing wrong with being a spinster. It's your attitude that grates. You chose to put yourself in the middle of your universe. All children do the same thing.
psychobroad| 10.2.10 @ 10:12PM
"There is nothing wrongwith being a spinster"--What are you, 102 years old?
JaneT| 7.20.11 @ 8:01PM
Remember that the way relationship start has changed dramatically in the past 10 or so years and whatever was going on earlier can't be used as example. People used to find dates by being introduced to them by a common friend which reduces everyone's possible matches a lot! That means lower chance to find a suitable mate and even lower chance to find another one after your first divorce.
And then came online dating, which made two very important changes to how people get into and out of relationships.
First, if you check out any of the popular dating sites ( http://www.datingwebsites.org ) it's clear that they make it much easier to find people with the same goals and interests as yourself, which should result in more successful marriages.
The second effect, however, was that each of these sites offers members easy access to millions of profiles! My guess is that because it's so easy to find other matches, people simply stopped trying to make their marriages work. I can safely say that I've seen at least 5 such live examples in people I know.
In any case, online dating offers anyone (especially over 40 women) the chance to find a successful relationship and I think once you try you'll know what you've been missing... And you'll also magically become such a friendly person to others (I don't know why that is but once you get into a working relationship you'll become a much calmer person!)
CharlieEcho| 9.30.10 @ 7:22AM
It's all about you isn't it. You, you Spinster. Life's a bitch and then you die. What is the purpose of "me". Forty -one years married with two adult, now, children each with kid's of their own. The old saying is, "If I'd known grand kids were this much fun I'd of had them first." Life is tough, it's a challenge. It was meant that way, other wise we would never have developed. Not procreating will only allow the stronger to extend the blood lines.
It's all about "me".
Lance Koldgutz| 9.30.10 @ 9:58AM
Look, I understand many of the responses here. It can't be very nice to have children one was never cut out for because it was the done thing back then, to make a misery of one's life, and then to have insult added to injury by the likes of Appleby, who proves that one doesn't actually HAVE to do it.
"Misery loves company, and if we're miserable, Appleby and other childless folk by-God owe it to the world to be miserable as well." That's a very human reaction, but not a very noble one. Consider wishing the lady good fortune and continued happiness, and tending to your own plot.
Jamie| 10.1.10 @ 12:40AM
Spot on!
Curly Smith| 9.30.10 @ 8:00AM
Congratulations on learning who you are and having the courage to live your life. From the above comments, it couldn't have been easy to go against the norm. It's an interesting contradiction, we demand that the country return to its Constitutional basis but you must live your life according to our extra-Constitutional precepts. You must not be different... particularly if you're happy.
Dave M. (now in S. Korea)| 9.30.10 @ 8:20AM
Curly, what the heck does the constitution have to do with this subject? No one is proposing that a law be passed requiring spinsters must get married. Stop conflating the constitution with morality. The constitution is a document that sets forth the limited powers of our federal government. It is not a blueprint for life. Learn your civics.
Curly Smith| 9.30.10 @ 9:32AM
Dave, why have we veered from our Constitutional moorings? Was it an overabundance of civics? Or, was it because individuals and groups decided that "there ought to be a law" because somewhere somebody was doing something different? Every extra-Constitutional measure arose from somebody imposing their views/values/morality on the rest of society. You've probably heard that "we don't legislate morality" but that's exactly what laws do - they codify what the lawmakers consider "moral" behavior.
Freedom is a problem for a lot of people. We want to be free to do what we want but we also want the power to stop others from doing things that we don't like. If you believe in a Constitutional Republic then you have to accept that somewhere somebody will be doing something different --- and (gasp!!) as long it doesn't harm anybody else or put a burden on society then it will be legal, moral and ethical. And, there will always be a groundswell to stamp out such behavior because "there ought to be a law"...
carnot| 9.30.10 @ 9:46AM
aside from your grade school logic......
the article reflects anecdotal/personal evidence on the social and psychological consequences of the choices being made. the real polemic, which you appear not to fathom, is that there are certain eternal verities vis family life that lead to a more satisfying passage during our limited stay. may or may not be true......but has nothing to do with the Constitution
scythe| 9.30.10 @ 10:22AM
If that's your take on the comments, you certainly are obtuse. Those comments were elicited by the snark detected in the remarks of the "spinster". Or hadn't you noticed? Her implication was she CHOSE the better life. And many disagree. So..shall we say her JUDGMENTAL attitude preceded all others? Hmmm????
Curly Smith| 9.30.10 @ 12:28PM
"So..shall we say her JUDGMENTAL attitude preceded all others? Hmmm????"
Absolutely. Her judgment about her life is vastly superior to your judgment about her life. Her choices may or may not mirror your choices but they are her choices to make. Why do you find her freedom so threatening? Or, is it her happiness that really bothers you?
scythe| 9.30.10 @ 4:19PM
Hey Coily - For someone who hasn't a clue about who I am, you sure have made some pretty conclusive comments about (her) happiness really bothering me. That would imply that I am not happy. So therefore...you have made a judgment on my judgment. The topic (she brought it up, now follow along closely) was how she thought HER LIFE was far superior to others. Get it? For all you know I AM A SPINSTER ALSO. You haven't a clue. What I and others objected to was NOT the fact that she made a choice but the TONE of her commentary which implied her choice more preferable not just for her but others in general. READ HER QUOTE: "I really can't see what I am supposed to have missed". In other words, all those who are not in her situation are not as well off. Get it now?
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 8:35AM
No, the original article decrying women who never procreate was the original insult. If she likes her life, why should everyone insist she doesn't because she chose a different path? No one treats men who don't marry or procreate like this.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 10:20PM
Not everyone did insist, dumbtard. It would be nice if you would at least read the posts before commenting on them.
Paul D| 9.30.10 @ 9:07AM
Appleby,
I have no problem taking your statement at face value. But forgive me if I suspect you may be whistling past a graveyard.
Paul D| 9.30.10 @ 10:35AM
But after thinking about it a little more, there really isn't anything wrong with "singleness" for some people. The Apostle Paul said singleness is actually preferable to marriage, for some.
So there are those who do not marry and don't miss it - but this article is not about them.
Voyager| 10.1.10 @ 2:42AM
The Apostle Paul is talking about being an ascetic, where in you have given up all worldly things, including family and all comforts, to better worship God.
We're talking about people who sent out into the desert and lived in caves for the rest of their lives. That's not the same thing as not having kids.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:40PM
Some of us don't give a hoot what some misogynist blowhard from 2,000 years ago said.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 2:58AM
Maybe you ought to give a hoot and take another look at what he said. You ignore the Word of God at your own peril.
Amazing how many people today consider themselves more enlightened, just because calendar says it is 2010.
b.g.| 10.3.10 @ 7:58AM
LOL. Not everybody believes in your imaginary sky daddy.
Latina| 10.3.10 @ 6:02PM
We'll see on Judgement Day, sucker.
Enjoy your time in hell. haha
Mike| 10.4.10 @ 1:29AM
Typical response from a bible thumper.
Amigo| 10.5.10 @ 2:12AM
50-50 baby. If you're wrong, you're screwed.
Melvin| 9.30.10 @ 9:46AM
My goodness woman, you have created a itch here, with all the varying comments.
I have read many of you postings here on American Spectator, and the picture of you that I have developed, is that you have accomplished much in your life. In some ways, your education, traveling, and what you have accomplished in your life could be considered enviable.
But as a separate and distinct human being this is the path that you have chosen go down in you life.
But, you mentioned "what I have supposed to have missed. "
Do, you know what it is like to sit outside on a cold winter's evening together on a bench sitting silently watching it snow, without uttering a word, but still communicating. Or having a hot cup of steaming tea brought to you without asking for it, because he knew you were thinking about it. You have missed, standing in the middle of a busy road looking into the eyes of your someone for the very first time, and all of a sudden the world stopped right there, right then, because the beginning of a life long commitment was being forged, and everything else just became irrelevant.
I know it's easy for me to say, "You can't compare yourself to your sisters." But in reality, you can't it isn't fair to yourself, because your separate and have your own character.
Labeling yourself a spinster. Bah..., come one girl your selling yourself short, your only old when they put you into the earth. He's out there, you just haven't allowed yourself to see him yet.
Whatthe . . .| 9.30.10 @ 4:51PM
Good grief. Selling herself short??? He's out there??? Where is it written that a woman must be in a relationship to enjoy life to the fullest? I've been married three (yes; count 'em) times, each one worse than the last. I'm a loving, talented, good-looking, spirit-filled Christian, 59 years old, who enjoys her relationship with her True Husband, Jesus of Nazareth, far more than any earthly relationship. My Husband is Kind, Gentle, Giving, Loving, Providing, Helpful, Hopeful, Eternal, Pure LOVE. His Spirit moves all over me in a way that only the Holy-Spirit-baptised can understand. His Love is never-ending, unchanging, and perfect in every way. Go find that here on earth . . .
Ditto | 10.1.10 @ 1:32AM
Me too! I'm 56 and married to Him as well!
joli| 10.1.10 @ 10:49PM
Spirit-filled Christian, married 3 times? I'm sorry, what spirit are you filled with? The spirit of self-righteousness and impossible expectations? "Go find that here on earth..." If you were hoping to find that in a husband, NO WONDER you're 3x divorced. Please don't lie to us and tell us that you got divorced so that you could become closer to Jesus. "I hate divorce" says the Lord the God of Israel. You can't get closer to Him by doing something he HATES. Ok, sorry, I don't know you. Perhaps you have repented of your 3 divorces and are now intent on fulfilling the path Christ has for you...
I really don't have a problem with Appleby's response. She has observed marriage in both the Christian and the secular world, and is justified in being cynical about it. She was wise enough to recognize that hers was a different path. I've been married for 21 years to someone who is, for the most part, indifferent. The reason I'm still married is as I stated above, God hates divorce. That and I have 3 kids who need their daddy. I do my best to be the wife my husband needs, while at the same time learning not to need anything from him, because he has neither the desire nor the ability to meet my needs.
Melvin, "Do, you know what it is like to sit outside on a cold winter's evening together on a bench sitting silently watching it snow, without uttering a word, but still communicating. Or having a hot cup of steaming tea brought to you without asking for it, because he knew you were thinking about it." Nope. My husband's world is still all about him. Him & his job, the kids, the house, his computer, the tv, everything else that interests him, and me, in that order. God isn't even on the list.
Autumn| 10.2.10 @ 2:18AM
Look within, Joli, you married your husband for a reason. Our happiness isn't another's responsibility, but it would be nice if they showed they cared a little bit, I know.
I'm sorry you're lonely. I've been where you're at and it's real tough; just know that you're not alone.
There's wisdom in Whatthe's post; her faith in God has pulled her through--me, too.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:00AM
"God isn't even on the list."
And therein lies the crux of the problem, methinks.
SoCon| 9.30.10 @ 9:21PM
I think Melvin's post was sweet-- surely he meant no harm. Why do people always have to over-react?
Stan Redmond| 10.1.10 @ 2:10AM
Oh please. You wanna play that game?
You know what it's like packing bags in the morning and jumping on a first class trip to two weeks in France all by your lonesome? No kids to hire a sitter. No wife to complain about your burmuda shorts. AND I can afford to fly first class because it's only me. You know how fun it is to buy a motorcycle once you get to France bceause you have the cash on hand because you don't have little Johnny's orthodontist's bills to pay. You know how good it feels jumping on that motorcycle and touring the French countryside. NOT KNOWING which way you'll go in the morning. Meeting new exciting people each and every turn. Talking to lovely women because you don't have to worry about a jealous wife.
I can go on for days the pleasures in life I have being unmarried and childless. You know how much a relief it is starting your own business not having to worry if it fails because you don't have extra mouths to feed? YOU KNOW HOW REWARDING IT IS SUCCEEDING IN BUSINESS and hiring people to work for you because I was free to take the risk?
Selling herself short? Please.
Brian| 10.1.10 @ 3:41AM
I've done all of those things. Got married at 39 and had my first child at 43.
Traveled the word and done it all - none of it remotely compares to having children. I have two little girls now and I wouldn't trade anything in the world for the love I have for them.
Harry| 10.1.10 @ 7:57AM
Bravo Brian.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:41PM
So, because it was that way for you, it's going to be that way for everyone?
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:06PM
I'd rather have Brian's life than yours, lonely loser.
Mike| 10.3.10 @ 9:52PM
Lonely loser? Hah! Hey if your life is so pathetic that you have to compensate by having kids, then have at it. Just don't assume that others are in the same boat.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 10:18PM
You misunderstand, Mike! I'm outrageously happy that defectives like you don't procreate. That way your nutter kind will die out and leave mankind better off.
You're just practicing social Darwinism, libtard.
Go at it--for me and your never to be born children. My 8 beautiful and successful children and 50 grand children will go forth and populate the earth. Suits me fine.
Mike| 10.3.10 @ 11:53PM
It's funny. For someone who is so happy and doesn't care, you seem pretty darn angry. Could it be because you just realized that there are other options in life and it's too late for you now?
Amigo| 10.5.10 @ 2:11AM
No, I'm just sick and tired of whiny libtards like you. Go back to the miserable nuts at HuffPo where you belong.
Honza| 10.1.10 @ 2:07PM
Golly. Without someone to do all that for, even a prospective someone, it seems really empty.
No man is an island may not be true, but by God, I'm not. I need people, or at least a cause made up of people.
Until my child was born, life sped by faster every year. Time slowed again, and that was a very good thing, once we had our no longer so little one. In know parents for whom that is not true, but those tend to be people whose idea of marriage is all about self-fulfillment and who contract out as much of child rearing as they can.
I'm not arguing for forcing people to have kids, but I shall continue to encourage it. Gives life meaning day to day and whatnot.
joli| 10.1.10 @ 10:50PM
Are you sure you're childless?
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:02AM
Yeah, I'm sure that trip to Frog-land is a real blast when you're in your 20s and finally free from Mommy and Daddy's oppressive rules.
When you're in your 60s and your friends are passing around the pictures of their wonderful grandchildren? Yeah, not so much. Tell them about your stupid motorcycle and watch them chuckle at you. And rightfully so.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:07PM
I hope you are, joli.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:42PM
"He's out there"? You know for a fact that the previous commenter is heterosexual, do you? Oh, wait, I forgot, I'm commenting in Outer Wingnuttia.
Manny| 10.3.10 @ 6:08PM
Why don't you crawl back under your slimy rock, nutter lib?
Ned| 9.30.10 @ 10:35AM
Our oldest was born when I was 36, and the youngest when I was a month shy of 40... easy for a man, tough for a woman, but my wife is 10 years younger than me, so that made it work a lot better... but, to the point, the kids changed my life. Not always for the better, certainly in unexpected ways, but dramatically changed it.
Oh, and cost me a truck load of money that I'd otherwise have spent on myself, but that's rather the point... isn't it?
Melvin| 9.30.10 @ 11:04AM
It's all worth it, when you look into your son's eyes, and you see yourself looking back at you.
John Navratil| 9.30.10 @ 1:39PM
With a freshman and a junior in two private universities, I wistfully look at that 15 year-old car in the driveway (the other is 14) and wonder if it was all worth it. I tell my son that he is going to school in my Aston-Martin.
The peace and quiet almost compensates for the bills. The house, once cleaned, stays clean.
Still, Christmas will be nice.
SoCon| 9.30.10 @ 9:26PM
It's all worth it, even when you look in your son's eyes and you don't see yourself looking back at you!
All three of my kids have been a blast--not perfect, but always fun. It's been an honor to be their mother. Thank you God for this great gift.
CaroJ| 10.2.10 @ 11:30AM
Do you even realize how narcissistic that statement is? You see yourself looking back at you? Not a separate human being? A mini-you that apparently has no trace of his mother in him... it's all you!
I guess if you had a daughter, she wouldn't count for anything except as a vessel to bring mini-versions of her husband into the world.
Wow... just wow.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:05AM
Wow, just wow, that you didn't see their point, Carol...that you chose instead to prattle about "narcissistic statements." I'm not even going to bother trying to explain it to someone so obtuse and agenda-driven. Get lost.
CaroJ| 10.3.10 @ 9:40AM
Nice "Christian" attitude. But that's what I would expect from someone who believes in pumping out kids... all for selfish reasons.
Julie| 10.3.10 @ 5:55PM
Unlike someone like you who believes in killing every baby you're pregnant with...all for selfish reasons. Typical braindead liberal--morally arrogant imbecile.
Julie| 10.3.10 @ 5:59PM
You're nuts. Her statement WASN'T narcissistic at all--she loves her son even though he's NOT FEMALE like her!!
You really need psychological help--or an enema. Probably both.
Butterfly53| 9.30.10 @ 10:53AM
Appleby, I have always respected your postitions on this site, but your atitude on this subject is sad, indeed. My only child, my 31 yr old daughter is like you and the women Mr. Orlet her writes about here. She is a a beautiful, thin and intelligent gal with an MBA. She has friends of all shapes and colors, but no love in her life. It breaks my heart to think she will end up alone after I am gone, no mate, no children. Life is hard. Marriage is hard, raising children is hard. Maybe you wouldn't have seen your friends go through divorce after divorce if people would take their vows seriously and hang tough. My marriage sucked for a long long time, but now, it is wonderful. Things have changed and for the better and I can imagine my life with out him. My parents were married for nearly 60 years until my father died last year. They are a shining example of family, hanging in there through thick and thin 'til the end. Something to be said for that.
Stan Redmond| 10.1.10 @ 2:18AM
In regards to "having children is hard" and "marriage is hard."
You don't see why your daughter is unmarried? She busts her butt for an MBA and no doubt is a hard worker. Does it occur to you maybe she's happy? Maybe after all the hard work required to hold a job that requires an MBA the last thing she wants to do coming home at the end of the day is more hard work? You even state your marriage sucked for a long long time. So you have "marriage sucks" "marriage is hard" "raising children is hard." Uhhh. Is it any wonder she's not married.
Kyrie_Eleison| 10.1.10 @ 8:52AM
Butterfly53 your's is one of the few intelligent and mature comments. Thanks for the encouragement and positive words about marriage and family.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:44PM
If she has friends of all shapes and colors, she will not "end up alone." She does not have to pair off in order to not be alone.
Note also that many, many people who do pair off, even those who have children, end up alone.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:07AM
It's not the same. A bunch of friends isn't the same as a wife or husband. Does b.g. stand for "blowhard goober?"
CaroJ| 10.3.10 @ 9:43AM
Way to miss the point! Wife/husband and even kids are not an insurance policy for your old age. There's no guarantee they'll be around either.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:09PM
You sound like a bitter old bitch--sucks to be you, loser. Just wait a few years, it'll get worse.
Mike| 10.4.10 @ 1:31AM
She sounds like a bitter bitch? Pot, meet kettle.
Amigo| 10.5.10 @ 2:09AM
Go play with yourself little lonely boy.
RB| 9.30.10 @ 1:58PM
Some thoughts: First you have denied the world a follow-on human being with your qualities and your genes. The meek won't inherit the earth. We're giving it away. Second, while you may not understand today what you have missed, I suggest you will understand only too well when you become an advanced senior looking back on your life. Just because your sisters' marriages failed doesn't imply yours would. My wife and I always hoped for grandchildren but our middle-aged married children decided other things were more important. We respect their decision but we think it's a great loss to society, to them, and of course to the wannabe grandparents... :-)
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:45PM
I can't believe the arrogance of telling someone that she'll regret her choices because they don't agree with yours. What if someone came up to you and told you you'd regret having kids -- which some people do, despite the social unacceptability of saying so?
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 12:29AM
Anecdata: I know several people (most of them identify as either conservative, or apolitical) who have admitted to me that they regretted having their kids.
One, a woman from a Bible study I was a Rent-An-Atheist at, told me in private that she only married her husband and had his kid because that's just what you DID, and since then she's always asked Jesus and her son to forgive her every night for feeling that way and not being a decent mother.
Heartbreaking, but not much I or anyone can do.
b.g.| 10.3.10 @ 8:00AM
"Rent-An-Atheist"? Did they invite you to argue your POV, or ...?
And I agree that this is heartbreaking. The children suffer more than anyone else. But the wingnuts don't care, because a. it's more important to them that people "fulfill their roles" than that people are healthy, happy, and productive; and b. suffering is precious unto jeeeezusssss.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 11:27AM
The lady who ran it (a Calvinist, the rest of the group was a mix who thought the churches around here were too liberal [in Southwest Missouri!!!!]) invited me several times to debate, and also to demonstrate her unshakable faith. For my time, I was paid in pizza.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:11PM
I hope it gave you stomach cramps, turd.
Most people are grateful they had their children-you're just cherry-picking and most like lying.
MrMike| 10.3.10 @ 9:56PM
Go read some stuff at http://www.truemomconfessions.com/ and then see what many mothers truly think.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 10:11PM
Yeah, like I would believe any of the BS written on "truemomconfessions!" It's there in black and white, therefore it must be true! You're embarrassing yourself, libtard.
Just because your mother bitterly regrets whelping you doesn't mean the same is true for all women.
Mike| 10.3.10 @ 11:55PM
And just because you are happy to keep popping kids out like a toaster oven doesn't mean that everyone wants to be a mindless breeder.
Amigo| 10.5.10 @ 2:08AM
I have four kids--someone's got to do it because we don't want to become extinct like you idiot libtards.
ShortNSweet| 9.30.10 @ 2:55PM
The most wonderful of blessings; children, unconditional love, someone to watch grow from infant to adult. My children are without one doubt the greatest gift God ever gave me after His salvation through Christ Jesus. Many times in my life they were what got me up, dressed and off to work in the morning. They are 80% of the smiles that have crossed my face in this life. They are all grown up now, and the joy of watching their success, and intelligence, and hard work still to this day bring smiles, and joy, deep down in my soul. Thank you God for my sweet blessed children. That's what I suppose you might have missed.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:45PM
Isn't that special.
/pats my tubal ligation
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:08AM
Damn right it's special. Too bad you will never comprehend it.
b.g.| 10.3.10 @ 8:01AM
Cylar, why do you feel so threatened by people who don't choose the same path as you do? I'd think that if you were truly happy, you wouldn't need the validation of everyone else doing as you do. The louder you shout, the less convincing you are.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:14PM
Are you kidding? I'm so happy you had your tubes tied!! Who needs another vicious, man-hating femi-nazi screwing up her kids.
You did the right thing--for your never to be born children.
Carpenter| 9.30.10 @ 5:10PM
Appleby, I had a nasty and contentious divorce once too. The pain and psychological bruises lasted a long time but I learned that what went wrong was not simply that I failed to get lucky in my choice of a spouse, but that I (as well as my ex) failed to put enough love into the marraige, or regard it as a serious and lifelong covenant in the first place. My second wife and I have tried to put God in the center of our marraige, endeavored to love each other exclusively (as our vows to each other stated) and found that we agree on much more than we disagree. 12 years later, we have learned that marraige is far more rewarding than we ever dreamed it could be.
I feel very sorry for people who have run out their biological options in pursuit of some goal or idol they have created for themselves, then look back with regrets, but God loves us in spite of our folly and may have a plan for us yet.
Carpenter| 9.30.10 @ 5:11PM
*gotta learn to spell marriage!
Michael Kirkby| 9.30.10 @ 6:04PM
I couldn't agree with you ladies more. I'm sixty; never wanted to get married or have children, although I did through entrapment and my own stupidity. I haven't lived with anyone since 1985, and I don't have pets; too much like kids. Growing up an orphan gives you a different perspective. I looked at all of my friends' parents living the acceptable American dream and knew from an early age I didn't want it. Now I'm free to do what I want, and do as I please as long as it harms no one else.
MK
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:09AM
The fact that you self-absorbed idolaters don't reproduce...is probably a blessing to the rest of us.
CaroJ| 10.3.10 @ 9:46AM
Talk about self-absorbed! You just can't stand it that people choose a different lifestyle than you did... and dare to be HAPPY with their choice. You must be really, really unhappy.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:34PM
Your never to born babies sure are happy!
mikep| 9.30.10 @ 8:18PM
Thank You "Women's Lib" take that one way or another as a blessing or a curse
SoCon| 9.30.10 @ 9:15PM
Children, Appleby--children; that's what you've missed. I guess there's no way to explain it, other than those few words.
To each her own.
Vickie B| 9.30.10 @ 9:24PM
Could it be that the "nasty and contentious" nature of your sisters was already there before the "divorce after divorce"?
Joey| 9.30.10 @ 11:45PM
Ouch!! That had to leave a mark!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:10AM
Amen.
MN J| 9.30.10 @ 10:52PM
I've done it all - career, postponed marriage, divorced - 13 years, remarriage. My 2nd marriage is fantastic. My son has a real dad. My point? I think far too many women were led to believe they could "have it all" by themselves and they did. Well, they have the "stuff" but are they missing something else? I think so.
And for men, thanks to the feminization of our schools, far too many males are no longer men (and I don't mean the arrogant, flamboyant big boys). Result - these talented women can't find a male partner.
Overall, the last 40 years have been absurd - we've managed to dumb down about everything that made our nation great and also destroyed minority family structure. We have far too many single women who have made the government their provider.
We need a return to basics. Oh, btw, I'm a CPA, retired computer company marketing manager and a PT college instructor. BTDT - am very glad I have a child, wish I'd had three but am very happy now. Lucky? Perhaps but nevertheless I never bought the "I can have it all and the heck with the guys" mantra - it made no sense. I think this author, unfortunately, did buy it all and now recognizes possibly something is missing in her life and the lives of far too many women in her age bracket who also bought the original feminist rant. Frankly, I think it's sad.
Patriot| 9.30.10 @ 11:50PM
Lots of wisdom in your post.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:47PM
"The feminization of our schools" = Wingnuttese for "treating girls equally, then blaming feminism when boys react by declaring that education is for sissies because they want to distinguish themselves from the icky girls."
Maybe women could have it all if men would actually step up and take on some of the responsibility at home, but I'm sure you'd think that'd make them "less manly."
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:12AM
Her entire point was that women bought into the lie that they could "have it all" on their own, idiot. There WAS no man around to "take on some of the responsibility at home" in the first place. Learn to comprehend what you read.
b.g.| 10.3.10 @ 8:02AM
I've read enough right-wingnut manure that I can understand the underlying assumptions. Thanks for attempting to mansplain to me what I'm reading, however.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:37PM
Our disastrous liberal run public schools are doing about as well as our dead and dying liberal run inner cities. Thanks for all you do, morons.
Everything you garbage mongers touch, dies.
Stan Redmond| 10.1.10 @ 1:58AM
I am on your side Apleby,
I can't believe the sarcastic vitriol you are getting in some of these responses.
This reminds of when I was in my twenties and everyone in my social life was getting married and having kids. "POOR STAN" they would say. So lonely and childless he doesn't know what he's missing.
BS. Misery loves company and no matter how many times I hear how wonderful children and marriage are it is a hard to deny fact that most kids were "accidents" and are now in miserable marriages. No thanks.
And to the hypocrites saying how selfish we spinsters and bachelors are, what's the difference if YOU are using your children's lives to bring YOURSELF happiness. I'm not useing anybody for my personal happiness. If you find YOUR happiness through YOUR children great. Butt out when we unmarried childless people find happiness through our own devices.
I always got the feeling people bragging about HOW HAPPY they are after marriage and a couple kids because they envied the freedom I enjoy.
Thomas B. Holdren| 10.1.10 @ 9:50AM
My wife and I married at 18/21 respectively. We waited a few blissful years, and are now raising the brightest spots in our life: our son and daughter. I wouldn't trade the unconditional love and fun these three have brought me for all the six-figure jobs, high-rise apartments, and motorcycle trips through France money could buy.
There are misfires, and some folks get married and have kids for all the wrong reasons. But when you get it right, you hit a sweet spot... you find out what you were truly meant to do. What you are here for. It's amazingly fulfilling.
I wouldn't trade your brand of "freedom" for what God has given me if I had 1,000 lifetimes to live.
The sad thing is... you'll never understand what I'm talking about.
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 8:41AM
Oh please. Why does everyone have to be just like you? You are happy, or so you say; but that doesn't mean everyone would be happy in the same circumstances.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:48PM
Because people who follow the LifeScript™ have no imagination, and they need to validate their choice by trashing everyone else's.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:13AM
Trashing everyone else's choice. Oh, like you've been doing in the last four or five comments you've left? I'm getting sick of you. Go back to patting your tubal ligation.
b.g.| 10.3.10 @ 8:03AM
You and the other people here were trashing other people's choices before I even showed up. Nobody's forcing you to reply to my comments.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:41PM
Liberal nutters lie you are so full of hate and envy, and when you get called on your ugliness you whine about others' comments. You're a bunch of sick jokes.
I'm glad you're not having children because you are extinguishing yourselves. The human race will be better off without mental defectives like you.
Gracias.
Mark| 10.1.10 @ 2:09AM
Not all people are made to be married. Liberation? It sounds more like slavery. Why? Many marriages are based on selfishness. These are the ones that end in divorce. It starts in the beginning. Children are a commodity. They are supposed to be the fruit of the marriage. Instead, the couple sees how long that they can postpone them. Then, when they are born, they are sent to the sitters so that both people can have a career. The child is seen as a burden. Then, when they get older, they are put into every sport and activity imaginable so that parents don't have to pay babysitters. It is no wonder that the children grow up self centered too. By this time, the parents are divorced and the child plays one parent off of the other.
Brian| 10.1.10 @ 3:46AM
You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.
My wife takes home and takes care of our children. I work eight hours, rush home and play with them. We spend our time with other families on the weekends, where our children play together and we enjoy watching them.
Your view of family is one of sitcoms and movies. I don't know a single family that lives a like you think we do.
b.g.| 10.3.10 @ 8:04AM
...because all families are like yours. Do you have any concept that many aren't? At all?
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:42PM
I'd rather have Brian's love-filled life than your cold, sterile existence.
Mike| 10.4.10 @ 12:01AM
And I think I would prefer just about anything to being an angry bitter troll such as yourself. Man I bet your kids just love you to death. Mommy Dearest anyone?
Amigo| 10.5.10 @ 2:07AM
Truth hurts, eh?
At least I didn't abort my kids.
Bobbie| 10.1.10 @ 9:36AM
How dare you to think you're happy, woman, when all these strangers on the internets are telling you that you must be miserable because you don't have a man and children? Clearly a woman by herself is defective in some way.
... actually I'm a happy spinster too. Or else, I was happy, until I started reading this article, because I laughed so hard I dropped my spindle and now the silk I was spinning is all tangled. Silk tangles are some of the hardest to solve.
Aaron| 10.1.10 @ 10:47PM
Some years back, Michael Moore wrote the book, "Stupid White Men." I'm thinking about writing a book called, "Stupid Women." Why? Because they get involved in these long relationships with some loser who obviously doesn't want to marry them. And why does he not want to marry her? WHY BUY THE COW WHEN THE MILK IS FREE! Ladies, I love ya'll, but you need to wake up! Save your virginity for a good man. You know, like the guy who wants to spend the rest of his life with you. The good guy who doesn't repeat that stupid line, "If you loved me, then you would sleep with me." Psalm 11:3 says, "If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do." The foundations of our country have been destroyed. Our hallowed culture and heritage has been lobotomized by Hollywood, television, jezebels, sodomites and hippies from the 60's who are now professors or politicians or on the Supreme Court. We wanted to say that there weren't any moral absolutes, but we were wrong. Oh, you say that we weren't wrong? Then why is there so much divorce, teen suicide, STD's, etc. etc. etc. The old ways were better. The proof is in the pudding.
marynotcontrary| 10.2.10 @ 1:16PM
Aaron 10.01.10 has his finger on the pulse. I went through many of the comments and wasn't impressed with half of them. The writer of the article is talking about life's ills, it is a sketch of what has become of women as a result of feminism. I for one don't believe "all" people are born with homosexual tendencies, I think it is a result of the ill state our society is in, there is no structure or infrastructure as Aaron is pointing out. "We have simply lost the plot."
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:50PM
BWAHAHA... Aaron, why should I buy the pig when the sausage is free? I guess you've never considered that some of us like sex but aren't interested in long-term relationships? Oh, wait, if you're spewing nonsense about "jezebels," then apparently you don't see women as anything in between "pious virgins" and "wanton whores" -- that is, women who act in ways that are convenient for men and women who don't. I'm proud to be in the latter category.
Aaron| 10.2.10 @ 10:36PM
b.g.,
Or should I say "wanton whore" (your words and choice). What can I say? Yeah, sex is wonderful, but we were never meant to be street dogs. I wish it weren't true, b.g., but you're headed for a devil's hell unless you repent. All fornicators are going to the lake of fire. You'll mock that, but it's true. I'm sorry. I really am. My guess is that your home life as a child wasn't too stable, am I right?
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 12:20AM
Don't know about b.g., but my home life as a child was fantastic. Had the much coveted married parents, financial security, no abuse (unless you count my sister's verbal abuse, which I don't), went to Southern Baptist church.
Still I became a "wanton whore", by the Talibantastic standards of goofy godbags. Again, different strokes.
As a functioning adult I don't believe in spooks, but to humor you, I'd rather go to Hell. That's where the good music and conversation is.
Aaron| 10.3.10 @ 12:51AM
Kaje,
I don't believe in spooks, either. I believe in an almighty God. The fool has said in her heart, "There is no God." I'm not trying to be mean, Kaje, but there won't be any conversation in hell. Just weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth. Who said so? Jesus. He never lied, but died on the cross for you. Why? Because He loves you, Kaje. Why do you hate Him? I already know the answer to my question. Jesus said that the world hated Him because He said that their deeds were evil. There'll be no music in hell. No parties. Just one big barbecue. Repent, Kaje. You'll be happy that you did.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 1:09AM
The fool quotes the Bible, because he cannot think for himself.
Why does Jesus hate empirical evidence?
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:16AM
Why do you hate the Truth? Quit Bible-bashing and listen to what the man is trying to tell you.
Damn atheists, think they have it all figured out.
Mike| 10.4.10 @ 1:34AM
Actually we atheists know that we don't have it all figured out. We know that there are many things out there to learn about the universe. The sad thing is watching a bunch of intelligent adults quote a Bronze Age book as a guide for life and spout a bunch of nonsense just because their preacher told them it is true. What a sad waste.
skip| 10.6.10 @ 10:48AM
To survive in the bronze age was a significant accomplishment. The accumulated wisdom of that age would be a vital tool for survival. You seem to think just because you exist now you are superior to past generations? You think you are intelligent and honest? By your own admission there are many things unknown. If Christianity is correct you are immortal and will exist forever, and by denying Christ that existence will be in hell. And it is possible no one will consider that a sad waste. A truth known since the bronze age and before is that what is truly intelligent and honest is not what it always appears to be. You just might be making a gamble you will regret forever. I'd bet on it.
b.g.| 10.3.10 @ 8:06AM
LOL. Actually, my parents are still together, and I have a close relationship with them. They aren't crazy Wholly Babble-beatin' godbags, like you.
You're really special. Are you gonna be handlin' snakes and drinkin' strychnine a few hours from now?
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:48PM
I bet your folks just love having you sitting across the table on Thanksgiving Day!
That must be a great time. Snort!!
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 12:12AM
"BWAHAHA... Aaron, why should I buy the pig when the sausage is free?"
QFT.
Beauteous One| 10.3.10 @ 5:45PM
You're the type who is equipped with a cocktail frank. Loser.
Beauteous One| 10.3.10 @ 5:50PM
Oh, you're a girl. Sorry.
Doesn't matter, though, you're just as big a loser as the guys, you just have breasts.
BTW, how many STDs do you have, sausage lover?
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 6:06PM
Thanks to the dual miracles of comprehensive sex ed and latex, none.
How many metric tons of repressed happiness do you have, love?
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:46PM
Sure. Easy sleazies like you screw anything that moves. Anything to repress your obvious self-loathing.
I bet you light up the STD-O-Meter when you walk into the doctor's office.
Easy sleazy--LOL!
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 8:36PM
Hee hee! That rhymes!
Still not as good as "sausage lover", though.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 9:40PM
I'm sure it's your mantra.
Aaron| 10.1.10 @ 11:06PM
We reap what we sow. Yeah, I know. It's an old-fashioned saying, but so true. I know a beautiful gal who had become a Christian. She had to put up with years of abuse from her alcoholic husband. Where did they meet in the beginning? At a bar. We reap what we sow. I met my wife at a Bible study. I don't have to worry about divorce. Both my wife and I know that God hates divorce. We've been married for 35 years now. I don't have to worry that she is going to cheat on me. She loves me and fears God. I love her and fear God so I don't cheat on her. If we do things God's way, then we'll have a blessed life. If we shack up (fornicate, live out of wedlock), things will not turn out well. We will reap what we sow. Ladies, PLEASE HEAR ME. Why should your loser boyfriend marry you if you live with him and/or give him sex. SHOULD HE BUY THE COW WHEN THE MILK IS FREE?
Patriot| 10.2.10 @ 2:07AM
Aaron, you're a good man, a little stodgy, but good. You're right about good and evil, too; it does matter what we do in this life because one day all of us will be judged.
God bless you and your wife.
Aaron| 10.2.10 @ 10:49AM
Thanks, Patriot, for the kind words and for the blessing. I have to admit that I had to look up the word "stodgy". I guess it means, "commonplace and boring; unduly old-fashioned." I don't know which way you meant it, but I admit that I'm old-fashioned. In most cultures, whether European or even Latin American, girls weren't allowed to hang with the boys unless they were chaperoned. That would go over nowadays like a lead balloon, even in most Christians homes. It used to be shameful to be living out of wedlock (shacking up) but not now. It used to shameful to be divorced, but not now. It used to be shameful to be pregnant and not be married (the kids were called bastards, through no fault of their own). Now our role models are Brad Pitt and Angelina Jolie, or any number of Hollywood "stars". In America, we didn't have to lock our doors back in the day, but those days are gone. Hollywood and TV producers showed us that a father wasn't necessary for our children. In shows like "Married With Children", the husband was protrayed as a dork, a mindless idiot. You should read the book, "Slouching Towards Gomorrah", by Robert Bork (the man who should be on the Supreme Court today, but thanks to liberals like Ted Kennedy, was rejected - "borked" they mockingly say. It explains quite clearly what has happened to our country. I could go on and on. If by "stodgy" you meant "boring", then I guess I am. Yeah, I suppose some would call my world-view boring (not necessarily you-but someone like Kaje). It must be more exciting sleeping with various women, going to bars to meet them, etc. It's also "exciting" being in a burning building. God bless you, Patriot.
Patriot| 10.3.10 @ 5:47PM
I meant you're old-fashioned--and sweet. It was a compliment. :)
kaje | 10.2.10 @ 4:32AM
"Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"
This gets said a lot. It baffles me how people think that this is a good way to make marriage sound appealing. I should marry some dope who sees me as a sex dispenser and doesn't like me otherwise...why? No wonder divorce is higher in red states.
Hurray for dating liberal feminist men! Less entitlement issues, better in bed, and substantially less disturbing comparisons to livestock.
Aaron| 10.2.10 @ 11:29AM
Dear Kaje,
I'm sorry that you apparently haven't met any good men. "Liberal feminist men" are not good men. They are the ones who usually just want to use you as a "sex dispenser", and no, they don't like you. Otherwise they would marry you. Don't you find that offensive? "Liberal feminist men" are the ones that would encourage you to get an abortion if you should get pregnant. They tend to be selfish pigs. When they get bored with you (and they will), they're going to move on. Doesn't that offend you? You wouldn't feel sad about that? You said "they're better in bed". Who says so? They're treating you like you were a piece of meat. They only want your body with no responsibility and no commitment and you find that appealing? God help you, Kaje, because no one else will.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 12:55AM
"...no, they don't like you. Otherwise they would marry you. "
Not everyone's into marriage, as previously stated one bazillion times.
""Liberal feminist men"... tend to be selfish pigs. "
Excuse me while I die of laughter. This thread is full of guys whining because women dare to have lives outside their sphere of influence (WOMEN! GETTING DEGREES! HAVING THEIR OWN TV SHOWS! GETTING WRITEUPS IN MY CONSERVATIVE BLOGS! WHAT HATH WE WROUGHT?!?) Hint: They are not coming from feminist libs.
"You said "they're better in bed". Who says so?"
Says me. Because I have sex with them. I'm entitled to make a judgment call.
WOMEN! MAKING JUDGMENT CALLS! ABOUT SEX!
"They're treating you like you were a piece of meat."
...you have sex with meat? That sounds...unsanitary.
"God help you, Kaje, because no one else will."
God can eat me.
b.g.| 10.3.10 @ 8:07AM
Yeah, Kaje, how dare you get to decide which men are good in bed or not? That's for teh menz to decide! If Aaron the Patriarchal Tool says that wingnut two-pump chumps are better in bed, how dare your inferior woman self contradict him?
"God can eat me." BWAHAHAHAH. I bet gawd is terrible in bed. That's why he has to go around knocking up 13-year-old virgins.
Gloria| 10.3.10 @ 6:54PM
Inferior? Oh, hell no!! You sweet nothings are just as disgusting as any old horn dog guy--you're just bitches in heat.
How many notches do you girls have on your bed posts? Can you even count that high?
Bet you have to mastubate to have orgasms; you live in the world of faceless, loveless wham, bam, thank you, ma'am.
SO DAMN GLAD I'M NOT YOU!!
Mike| 10.4.10 @ 1:37AM
What's wrong with masturbation? Oh wait, God said it was wrong. Oh yeah. I bet you people are so repressed it's painful.
Amigo| 10.5.10 @ 2:05AM
Orgasms are better with a hot guy, dumbo. What else are you boys good for? lol!
Sounds like you're a solo operator. Sorry.
Hugh Hefner| 10.5.10 @ 2:24PM
Mike,
Go beat your meat (choke your chicken, pummel your chumley, box your clown, etc.) Do you also have one of those blow up girls that you can have sex with? Who's repressed? By your own admission, you are.
Libtard| 10.4.10 @ 10:12PM
""Liberal feminist men" are not good men. They are the ones who usually just want to use you as a "sex dispenser", and no, they don't like you. Otherwise they would marry you. Don't you find that offensive?"
I am ninety-nine percent certain that the legal ceremony which bound me to my fellow liberal feminist, who happens to be a man, was marriage. It's hard to tell between bouts of drinking and sex, though. You know how we liberals are.
Amigo| 10.5.10 @ 2:02AM
No, thankfully--we don't.
Libtard| 10.5.10 @ 10:42AM
Well, you should, dude. We throw the best parties and have the lowest divorce rates.
I think that the best part is the part where you seem to have taken me seriously. You have such a caricature of liberals set up in your head that you are completely ill-equipped to actually talk to them like human beings. I'm a liberal feminist, I'm married to a liberal feminist (my name is my own), and we have a wonderful marriage and a beautiful daughter. Yes, you CAN have sex if and when you like (provided you have willing partners), and settle down happily later if you want. If you don't want, you can just keep on with your life as you wish. I mean, that really seems to be making you seethe with rage, but you could get to live in that world, too, if you would just stop being so damn angry at all those people who don't live your way.
Chumley| 10.6.10 @ 3:03AM
Serial rapists and serial killers are mostly liberals. And those are the good ones!
Talk about backward stereotypes!! You're obsessed with anger; but it's your anger that you project onto us. You liberals are the ones always screaming and ranting about something--we're just sick of listening to you.
I don't care if you have children or not; just shut up about it.
Libtard| 10.6.10 @ 2:17PM
First paragraph: proof, please? Did you go around taking a survey of serial rapists and serial killers? You are saying that, if some of As are B and some of Bs are C, that must mean that all As are C. Basic logic failure. Hitlers and baby killers! are mostly conservative! And those are the good ones!
Correction, honey. From whence did you reach the conclusion that I was speaking for all liberals? I did not have a meeting with The Liberal Conspiracy in order to seek sanction for my comment. See, the neat thing for human beings is that they speak as individuals. I'm not angry. I'm both sorry for the people who live in the pathetic spectacle that is socialized gender norms and laughing at those who impotently stamp their feet and curse those who don't live like that.
I have children, and I'm going to raise them to laugh at people like you, too, and to have functional relationships, too. Doesn't it just make you sick, all these children being raised out of your control? I mean, it's bad enough that some of these terrible harridans don't have children, but just think how much worse it is that some of us *do*.
Chumley| 10.7.10 @ 12:55AM
Everyone knows rapists and murderers are liberals because they have no conscience. Hitler was a socialist like you, too--NAZI stood for the German National SOCIALIST party. Look it up.
I'm not a control freak--that would be Barack and Michelle Obama and their merry band of fascist liberals who are trying to micro-manage every detail of our lives. After all, Michelle disapproves of foods that aren't "healthy" you know. You're the nanny-stater, doofus. Not me.
You should ask them if it makes them sick that children are being raised out of their control.
I already told you I didn't care if you had kids, just shut up about it. It would be nice if you read my post before you answered it.
Not only are we laughing at fascists like you and Obama, we're going to wipe the floor with you meatheads on November 2!
Cheers.
Moo| 10.2.10 @ 12:38PM
Oh no, not meant to make marriage sound appealing. Take it for what it is saying directly instead. A man will use a woman for sex if she allows him to, and for as long as she allows him to and he won't stop doing so unless she puts the brakes on, that's just a fact of life. If a decent woman wants something better than that then she has to look for the kind of man that shares her own values and wait till marriage.
kaje | 10.2.10 @ 9:19PM
Wow, and people say feminists hate men.
I know it's nay unfathomable to patriarchal peckerheads, but some men actually like women. In fact, I'd say most do.
Libtard| 10.5.10 @ 10:45AM
I know, right? I like my husband plenty, and he hangs around me even when he's not either having sex with me or trying to. This was the case *even when we weren't married.*
This does, incidentally, make the times in which we do have sex that much more enjoyable. (The part where we don't hate each other and wrestle for control.)
But try explaining to people that genders aren't at war unless they make it that way and their poor ickle heads explode. I pity them.
Chumley| 10.6.10 @ 3:05AM
You're a creeper. Hate and war--that's what love means to you, huh?
Libtard| 10.6.10 @ 2:10PM
Clearly your reading comprehension skills need serious work. If that's what you got from the post--that I think of love as a hate- and war-filled thing--then you have basic literacy problems that even a random commenter on the internet cannot address.
Creepers and what--that's what you're means to you, huh?
Chumley| 10.7.10 @ 1:02AM
Your posts are poorly written and nebulous--other than that, I don't care.
Good luck to you and your family; we're going to need all the help we can get in the looming economic depression created by Obama and his cronies.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:52PM
Kaje beat me to it. I'm sorry that you've never met any decent men, "Moo" (appropriate name, too). And I'm equally sorry that you seem to think sex isn't a pleasurable act done between two equals, but a commodity that women "have" and men "get" from us.
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:57PM
You're the same wornout whore, admit it.
Young women have rejected your tired, perennial victimhood. You're irrelevant.
When your wretched population dies off, no one will remember you ever existed. Hell, I've already forgotten.. lol
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:18AM
Oh, I'd love to see some evidence for the claim that divorce is higher in red states. My guess is that's a complete lie.
kaje | 10.3.10 @ 11:16AM
And of course the wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_in_the_United_States
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 6:59PM
Give it up, loser. No one cares because miserable losers like you are irrelevant.
You'd better get a job, your welfare payments are going to be axed when we take over Congress.
Libtard| 10.4.10 @ 10:09PM
"I know a beautiful gal who had become a Christian. She had to put up with years of abuse from her alcoholic husband. Where did they meet in the beginning? At a bar. We reap what we sow."
You're right! She met him at a bar, so she had it coming to her whenever she was abused! Wise words indeed from the Christian. I wonder, did he ever "reap what he sowed?"
Kaje | 10.2.10 @ 12:11AM
Appleby just says she's not into marriage, gives one reason why, and says she's glad that's an option for her.
This is somehow "snarky" and "grating". I imagine her mere existence is grating to misogynazis.
You think that's bad, wait until someone who actually is snarky shows up.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:18AM
"You think that's bad, wait until someone who actually is snarky shows up."
Like you, for instance?
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 11:18AM
Yep! I'm always eager to oblige!
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 7:00PM
Yeah, we know--for every Tom, Dick and Harry sausage out there.
emo| 10.2.10 @ 3:34PM
Youll find out when youre elderly, sick and incapacitated
Kaje | 10.2.10 @ 9:22PM
Because married people with kids never, ever get tossed into nursery homes. Certainly not a common occurrence, by gum.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:52PM
How "selfless," breeding so you can have nursemaids.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:19AM
Yeah, much better that they instead suck at the government's teat in their declining years.
Sashacohen| 7.26.11 @ 1:12PM
Appleby, you hit on the main point perfectly! There is nothing wrong with the choices these women made in their lives. Yes, marrying early works out for some couples, but looking at the current divorce rates, it usually doesn't look too promising. Also, the more independent (financially and emotionally) a woman is, the more she expects out of her man. Plain and simple. If she has a Masters Degree for example, I highly doubt she would be satisfied in a relationship with someone who barely made it out of college, if at all. Yes, degrees are not everything, but they do have an effect on the income level that individual can receive in his/her job. I'm in my late 20's now, dating, and happier than I've ever been. I graduated college in four years, went on to pursue my Master's at Columbia in Business and now I run a successful advertising agency. I think there is no problem with focusing on yourself before getting into a serious relationship. Once I had settled into my own place and landed a stable job, I filled out an application on a few of those dating sites ( I got my info from http://www.datingservices.net/ ), and voila, I met my current boyfriend. He always tells me that he's happy I'm not the type of girl who depends on a man for her happiness because I earned everything I have on my own account.
Maybe marrying at a young age and having kids works for some women. But maybe those women get cheated on down the road and realize that the most important thing in their life (i.e. their relationship) let them down. Then what do they have to be happy about? Nothing. Ladies, please don't let your happiness be dependent on marriage and kids. If so, I'm sad to say a lot of you will be let down in your life. Best of luck though. -Sasha
Paul H.| 9.30.10 @ 7:21AM
I think Mr. Orlet should interview some of the guys who packup and left. He may get an insight that will surprise him.
Best regards,
Paul H.
CharlieEcho| 9.30.10 @ 7:26AM
You make a good point. What are the other answers and questions. It takes two to make it work. Things do not always run as smoothly as we hope. We have to keep up the maintenance.
Al B.| 9.30.10 @ 10:57AM
This article shows that even AmSpec has fallen under the spell of what Rush calls the "chicification" of the news. The travails of women are ok to publish, but men are not allowed to express their own frustrations without being vilified.
JohnD| 9.30.10 @ 7:29AM
I am a divorced male in my late 40s and I have no desire to remarry because today it is a bad deal for men. A wife has the power to financially destroy her husband and the latter has no means to prevent it. Plus, I believe (actually I know) that men and women are fundamentally different, and a marriage should be a division of labor with distinct defined roles. Women today are taught to be rivals to their spouses, rather than partners. This is especially true in large urban areas where feminism is the fashion among women. Feminism teaches women to be ashamed of their femininity and to aspire to be men. Not my idea of a mate, plus it creates confusion for women who supress their feminine instincts and then wonder why they are miserable.
Dave M. (now in S. Korea)| 9.30.10 @ 8:23AM
JohnD, You need to listen to Dennis Prager's Male/Female hour. Also, there are plenty of women out there who do not aspire to be men. Many of them belong to good churches.
Derek Leaberry| 9.30.10 @ 10:42AM
Exactly! The finest women and girls I know attend the Latin Mass Church in Vienna, VA.
Saint Athansius| 9.30.10 @ 12:39PM
Yes, but they are under 18 or over 50, based on my visits there.
InLineFour| 9.30.10 @ 11:51PM
I'm hip. But it's not just at the LMC in Vienna. Seems it's that way everywhere.
Kathleen| 9.30.10 @ 1:27PM
I know someone who attends that Mass! I attend the same kind of Mass in SF. Same thing here...the ages for men and women. Man, this article surely sparked a lot of spitting and hissing back and forth. We've hurt marriage in this culture. The Catholic Church (traditional) has the right idea......Let's focus on the marriages that endure and fight for them. It's too easy to become bitter-this goes for "spinsters" (that used to be a good word) and men who've had their clocks cleaned by our "Family Law System".
Derek Leaberry| 9.30.10 @ 4:07PM
Wise words, young lady.
PolishKnight| 9.30.10 @ 1:32PM
Derek, even these seemingly good women and those who don't overtly bothering buying into feminists dogma (why bother? They already have high paying jobs and all the benefits of manhood with registering for selective service, etc.) are often still part of the problem.
They wanted the high paying jobs and got them and for a brief time while there was a supply of older, chivalrous, high income men they could marry up. Now, they are surrounded by "losers". Indeed, I went to those basements in church speed dating and these aging spinsters had the attitude they were better than me because they earned more or I wasn't super good looking (nevermind them getting long in the tooth.)
Regarding the concept of the woman too busy with her career to find men until in her 40's... For men, finding a career isn't something we do for fun. It's called paying the bills because we know a woman won't do it for us. In the meantime, we spend our time actively looking for women. It's not something we wait around for 20 years and then start looking when the clock goes off. Our good, albeit rarely ideal mate, is usually a result of years of a search similar to the ultimate "apprentice."
However, American women in particular and especially in church and the middle class seem to think that the best way to find a man is to act like sleeping beauty. It really is Disney's fault.
Hmmm, Derek, Latin mass. Is that St. Mathews? :-)
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 12:35AM
What's your excuse for being such an ass? Should we blame your trolldom on Disney, too?
Do you whine that much when you go to Confession? I pity your poor priest.
PolishKnight| 10.1.10 @ 10:38AM
AJ, isn't your response even lower than a troll? You're whining about supposed whining.
I'm sorry I criticized how women behave in modern society. That's the problem: They've been so overprotected, pampered, and privileged that everything else has been put in second place including children.
Forget women's equality. How about just treating them like adults, for a change?
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 1:09PM
Such bitterness and hostility. Women aren't your problem, PK--you are. Put on your big boy pants and take responsibility for your own mistakes.
PolishKnight| 10.1.10 @ 6:11PM
AJ, what mistakes did I make that I am not taking responsibility for?
AJ K| 10.2.10 @ 2:02AM
Your bad relationships with women. It couldn't be all their fault.
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 12:28PM
Ah, the plot (like cooling gravy) thickens... Who said I have bad relationships with women? Actually, I've been married for 7 years and have as many women friends as men.
Fortunately, the reason why any negative experiences I had were minimized is precisely because I got out early or avoided them in the first place. I also stand up for myself.
Indeed, AJ, you're shaming tactic is precisely an example of the kind of woman I avoided: Someone who took any kind of complaint I had, even minor, and told me to shut up and quit whining. Ultimately, such a woman will get disgusted with a "wimp" in her life even if he does like her boots.
You're not perfect either, you know.
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 12:29PM
Oops, I meant "lick" her boots!
Amigo| 10.3.10 @ 7:02PM
I bet you like to wear her boots, too!
Jokester| 10.3.10 @ 10:51PM
...and her pretty pink panties.
Killerman| 9.30.10 @ 8:53AM
"Feminism teaches women to be ashamed of their femininity and to aspire to be men. Not my idea of a mate, plus it creates confusion for women who supress their feminine instincts and then wonder why they are miserable."
So concise, so simple, so true. Occum's razor.
Butterfly53| 9.30.10 @ 11:02AM
My daughter is extremely feminine, but a feminist to the inth degree. Embarrassingly so. It grates my nerves beyond belief when she acts so "Gloria Steinam". I look at it as a shield she throws up to deflect anything traditional.
SoCon| 9.30.10 @ 9:33PM
I'll pray for you and your daughter. Life is so short and we squander so much of our precious time. She sounds like a lovely and successful young woman.
Andrew| 9.30.10 @ 1:21PM
amen to that - I will not pull a pair of deuces against a stacked deck
ShortNSweet| 9.30.10 @ 3:15PM
Our culture has supported the deterioration of the family. God created the family the way He did for a reason...He knew best. The women should be subject to the man, and the man should love the woman as Jesus loves His church.,,and God first, then your spouse, and then your children. The husband is supposed to provide for his family, and he is supposed to be the spiritual leader. Unfortunately, husbands run off and leave their wives with their children, and she is made to be the husband, wife, and mother and father. That's nothing like what God intended it to be, and therefore the family is no longer. People look at the statics, if not their own lives, and are scared to death to commit to something that won't commit too....and so on and so on. Your comment seems to blame women in general, but I say it is across the board - both men and women, and the children are left being dragged behind the car packed with the stuff of the past couple of years.
God help us and the children!!!
Whatthe . . .| 9.30.10 @ 4:54PM
Amen.
golem| 10.1.10 @ 2:50AM
"Women today are taught to be rivals to their spouses, rather than partners."
Absolutely 100% spot on.
Jeremiah| 10.1.10 @ 1:11PM
Who is doing the teaching?
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:23AM
Hollywood, the media, the educational system, the Democratic party...and all the rest of the pagan attention-whores trying to take God's rightful place on the throne. Do you really have to ask?
Jeremiah| 10.3.10 @ 7:04PM
You're right. So start attacking them, okay? Why blame women in general?
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 8:45AM
Huh. Marriage can be a bad deal for *some* men, just like marriage can be a bad deal for *some* women. Marry or don't, but don't blame it on anyone other than yourself.
marynotcontrary| 10.2.10 @ 1:25PM
JohnD 9.30.10 has experienced what feminism has wrought. Women are taught to be rivals to their husbands, the article itself has the threads of resentment that women have, they are simply not happy. Feminism didn't make women happier. Women have to define what is good for them as individuals and not impose anything on their male spouses or partners. We, men and women have a chip on our shoulders, we all have to change. Men and women are vastly different but it doesn't mean they have to butt heads or contradict each other.
b.g.| 10.2.10 @ 9:54PM
I'm so happy I was not raised by a misogynist asswipe like you who thinks that wanting to be treated like a full human being, rather than a warm-blooded convenience for a man, is "wanting to be a man."
"There are two kinds of people: People, and women. When women demand to be treated like people, they are accused of wanting to be men."
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:25AM
As others have explained to you, you've reaped what radical feminism has sown...and now you've got the temerity to blame your bitterness on the traditional family, men, and God.
Are you about through amusing yourself here? I hear they're getting short on whiny pissants over at DailyKos these days.
Marco| 10.3.10 @ 7:06PM
b.g. is probably fat, forty and forgotten. Poor slob.
Gunner-asch| 9.30.10 @ 8:21AM
Well, I did get married again after the ex left the kids and me for wherever she is now. Those three are grown and on their own, and my wife and I have two more. Sure, I'm the oldest Dad in the room but when our son performs with the school band or our daughter trounces an older kid at fencing, it does not matter.
But this is our life and it is not for everyone. As far as the singles in this article go, it all boils down to one thing: Real Americans live the way they want.
Ed| 9.30.10 @ 8:31AM
Until not very long ago, marriage was an insurance policy between two people who pledged their lives to each other so that if one became infirm the other could carry them both. It was serious then. Now with entitlements left and right , men and women no longer have to depend on each other. Now marriage is just for fun. When it stops being fun, we say good-bye and take our toys and go find a new best friend.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 12:40AM
The difference between a liberal and a conservative is that the former thinks institutions should serve people, not the other way around.
Also, the latter are psychotic killjoys who love enforcing misery. YOU SHOULD BE FORCED INTO MARRIAGE OR DIE IN THE STREET, SLUT!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:26AM
You've got it exactly backwards on that liberal vs conservative thing. Last time I checked, Obama's government seems to think we're the servants put here to enrich him and his cronies. Clinton felt the same way.
Marco| 10.3.10 @ 7:07PM
Kaje is probably fat, forty and forgotten. Poor slob.
Melvin| 9.30.10 @ 8:31AM
In the immortal words of Borat, "Wow, wow, wa, we, wa.
At this point in my life I couldn't even begin to imagine, going through life without my someone on the other side of the door of our home.
I have had Aunties that went through husbands like Sherman through Georgia, until they found they're someone.
My someone and I have been married going on 28 years, and I cannot even begin to imagine what my life would be without her. It is hard to describe, being with her for this length of time, is a feeling of foreverness.
She came to me in the winter of last year and we began to have a discussion of that my wife wanted to go back to her the land of her birth and map her family tree, because there were relatives on her father's side that she had not even met. I asked "her how long were you thinking on staying?" She replied, "6 months." I immediately started thinking of reasons in how she should drastically reduce that amount of time. Then the more I thought about it, the more I thought to myself, "Melvin, your being selfish now."
I went to my wife and told her, "Dear, if this is something that you think that you must do, then you go right ahead and do it." By the look on her face you would have thought Ronald Reagan rose from the grave.
"Why the drastic change?" I told my wife, "There are things and events in our lives that only come around once in a lifetime, and if we don't act upon them, then they're gone forever. And besides dear, I don't own you.
I might be wrong, but marriage has been turned upside down by society. People, that we haven't met in a long while, unexpectedly come along, and comment, "you still married?" It is, as if in the big book of life that somewhere on chapter 28, a divorce was supposed to happen.
Many people, view marriage as ownership, or as an institution, but in my opinion, it is a state of mind.
It has taken me a long, long time to get my mind where it is today in regards to my marriage. Has our marriage been angry? Yes. Has our marriage been spiteful, and at times hateful? Yes. Has our marriage been happy? Yes. But thank God, neither of us wanted to give up on each other.
Appleby, made the comment, "What have I supposed to have missed?"
During this last Labor Day holiday, I didn't have to go to work on Monday. It had slipped my wife's mind that I had Monday off.
I arose made coffee and breakfast for the two of us, while my wife was still asleep. This is usually our weekend routine.
She woke up smelling the coffee and breakfast while rubbing the sleep away from her eyes, immediately awoke with that smile that I have known all these years, when she is really, really, and she came to me at the stove, and threw her arms around me and said, "My buddy's home." This is what you have missed Appleby, the foreverness of a deeply personal life long friendship that only two people can experience.
PJ| 9.30.10 @ 9:17AM
Melvin,
What a beautiful commentary on marriage! What you have described is what marriage is all about: a complete giving of oneself for the sake of the other in conjunction w/lots of compromising.
Anastasia Mather| 9.30.10 @ 9:29AM
Amen, bro! Thirty-two years, and there is no one else for me. Nobody else I want to share everything with - good, bad, indifferent. We've been through hellish times and giddy happy times and I wouldn't trade it.
Majito| 9.30.10 @ 11:08AM
Oh yeah...i echo these thoughts...know exactly what Melvin is writing about...Poor Appleby...she has missed quite a lot but she doesn't even know that...give a few lustres perhaps a decade or two and she'll be crying...i saw a tv reportage (60 mins i believe) several years ago when they showed several high calibre women (net worth in the zillions) that took the 'spinster' exit rather than the family one...every one of them talked about going to the parks on saturday or sunday mornings and watched the children playing and interacting with their moms...they looked so joyful while they sat there with their designer cloths, cartier watches, jimmy choo footwear and such but all alone...God stated in Genesis...'it is not good for man to be alone'...so He went put the guy to sleep and voila...there she was...all he could say (after naming all animals) was ....wow man...so this being was now a woman...so we who have found what marriage is all about still say...wow man, she's my girl...and nothing else matters...now she was nice enough to go through the pain of child bearing and now we both enjoy (perhaps too much) the result...our daughter and son...both new human beings, each a different individual in their own right, own thoughts, desires, aspirations...and we did it together...what did Appleby missed? Girl the universe, that what you missed (and by the way, robbed us all of your kids...who knows another Einstein, Galileo??) we're all the poorer by Applyby's decision...you missed life dear and that it entails...
E-Male| 10.1.10 @ 6:40AM
"Many people, view marriage as ownership, or as an institution, but in my opinion, it is a state of mind."
No one needs to read any further than this statement.
Petronius| 9.30.10 @ 8:34AM
Until midway through WW II it was a given that a woman must marry in order to survive unless she entered the convent. A generation later the Society for Cutting Up Men declared war on masculinity and prevailed because real men at that time went into the trades instead of law school. The big mess was made by couples who married with little or no thought to what kind of spouses or parents they would become and those marriages crashed and burned. Those of us who avoided marriage did so in light of all this happening around us. The other things that influenced me were resistance to family pressure, the writings of H.L. Mencken on this subject, a movie titled How to Murder Your Wife, and the realization that the only women I would consider marrying would want nothing to do with me in my then impoverished state. The only time I did propose I was rejected out of hand because the female held the belief that no man was good enough for her. Sound like one of the above?
Let's get real. For too long men have taken women at face value and marry in the belief that the female he meets at the altar is and will remain the person he's been courting. But the female does research on him behind his back and says yea or nae to the union based on what she can make of or get out of him. My broker has been cut in half three times by gold diggers, but that's an occupational hazard. In the end just one thing keeps the hardcore single, single; fear of what will happen after he or she says "I do."
Patriot| 9.30.10 @ 9:38PM
There are so many heart-broken cynics among us. It's very sad.
Human beings will always disappoint, but the Lord never will.
Steve A| 9.30.10 @ 8:56AM
From the description of the "spinsters" in this article, it is obvious to me that there are about 2 dozen forty something year old men out there that dodged the bullet big time on these babes. Let's be happy for these guys & move on.
carnot| 9.30.10 @ 9:52AM
lol!!!!!!!!!!!
Citizen-Comrade| 10.3.10 @ 7:37PM
And they all look like Angelica Huston.
S.| 9.30.10 @ 9:00AM
Notice that Orlet has a girlfriend, not a wife.
Patriot| 9.30.10 @ 9:39PM
I noticed that, too.
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 8:47AM
Me three. And he doesn't admit to having any kids, either.
Trina| 10.2.10 @ 10:15AM
Did you read the last paragraph?
Janice| 10.3.10 @ 10:25PM
Or, God help me, Jack Nicholson. What a big fat boy!
gearjammer| 9.30.10 @ 9:04AM
You say the kids of " Darwin's Superstar" will never be successful. Well nine kids having nine kids and their nine each having nine equals 819 I believe. Behold the America of the future ! Obama in the White House and 100 Reids' is the Senate and 435 Pelosis' in the house. This election coming up is our last gasp. Please get that single mother some birth control !
Bob S| 9.30.10 @ 3:35PM
No- get that single mother some SELF control!
PJ| 9.30.10 @ 9:05AM
If the question is why are there many more single, 40 yr old women, there really is no simple answer. I believe part of the answer may be on how a woman views herself. Does she feel worthy to be loved? Does she feel that she has a complementary or competitive relationship w/the man she "loves." Does she understand what love is?
I also believe, women of today have no idea on how much power they have in setting the tone in the relationship. They lower their standards by opening the bedroom door before any mention of a marriage certificate. This tells the man something about the woman: "Sex is primarily important to you, so I might as well have fun too. If you're not interested in marriage, neither am I!"
Until I got married & had my son I never realized as a woman, how much influence I have on men. It's an awesome responsibility, which I take very seriously.
SoCon| 9.30.10 @ 9:41PM
"The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world."
Harry the Horrible| 9.30.10 @ 9:06AM
I married late and I regret almost every day I lived before my marriage without my wife. I don't know how I lived without her.
I guess I didn't. I just "existed."
SoCon| 9.30.10 @ 9:42PM
Not so 'horrible' Harry. :) I'm happy for you and your wife.
Derek Leaberry| 9.30.10 @ 9:06AM
My wife is the mother of our six children and homeschools. My spinster Sister--in-Law has no children and has no husband. My wife's life has its frustrations for sure, but she is the much happier woman.
kerry| 9.30.10 @ 11:00AM
Why are women who remain single called spinsters? It seems to be such a negative, cheap shot at someone. How do you know that she is so unhappy? Live and let live.
ConantheContrarian| 9.30.10 @ 1:24PM
Instead of spinster, we should call them barren-womb.
duck| 9.30.10 @ 7:44PM
Spinster is a very old term denoting a never married woman that spends her waning years at a spinning wheel creating wool or cotton thread.
As far as "live and let live"....very few people will go for that. Most everyone wants to remake everyone else in their own image. While the Republicans have been accused of this on several fronts, it seems that the Democrats have the top lead in correcting all life as they see it.
Controlling others lives is the prime reason for politics. In the name of freedom, you will live your life as one or another group sees fit and if they can't control you through politics, they will use the court system. So "live and let live" is basically dead..............
Elizabeth| 9.30.10 @ 9:46PM
How do you know your wife is happier, Derek?
You're such a smug, self-satisfied man; you're repugnant. A little humility is a good thing, you know.
Dan Hirsch| 9.30.10 @ 10:33PM
Elizabeth;
Maybe he asked her and she said "Yes."
Why would you doubt his statement? Or is your own experience so unsatisfactory that the only comfortable understanding you can countenance is that two can never be comfortable and understanding of each other's thoughts.
Are you lonely?
Are you lonely in a crowd?
I hope not - I fear so.
Elizabeth| 9.30.10 @ 11:59PM
I wasn't being presumptuous, Derek was; how does he know his spinster sister-in-law is unhappy?
No, I'm not lonely because I have a strong faith in God. I also try to practice charity. A little of that would do you and Derek a world of good, Dan.
Try it sometime.
Jaxebast| 10.2.10 @ 4:06PM
Elizabeth,
Here's a hint: if you're trying to practice charity.... you're doing it wrong! Calling people repugnant is the exact opposite, in fact.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:31AM
She calls it like she sees it, compadre. Get rid of the idea that charitable people aren't allowed to criticize the lame crap that they hear other people spewing.
JP| 9.30.10 @ 9:09AM
Here's a dirty little secret: Woman's Lib liberated men as much as it did women. And young, attractive women are more prone to go for older, well-off men than young men going for older well-off ladies. Nature has indeed had the last laugh. I think it was Socrates who said concerning matters of sexual egalitariianism that older hags should have first dibs on the young men.
Feminism, when it gets down to it is a war not against men, but against Nature. Most women, by thier nature are more inclined to seek security. Men are more inclined to be attracted to a woman's physical appearance than her brians or ability. I bet Christopher Orlet's freind's boyfreind who left her after a decade is now living with a woman half his age.
Old institutions like marriage and the extended family do have thier value, after all. And in the age before no-fault divorces, it would have been almost impossible for a 48 year old husband to leave his wife of 3 decades for a 21 year old tart. I do have empathy for these 40 something women. It turned out Woman's Lib has not been that liberating.
Elizabeth| 9.30.10 @ 9:47PM
Women's Lib has been disastrous for women and the family.
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 8:51AM
Well, then, let's take away women's right to have their own checking accounts and property, then, shall we? And send all those nasty working women home...like the nurses and teachers. Good luck with all that.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:32AM
Good luck advancing that strawman, you mean. Most regulars on conservative websites and blogs can see right through this debating "tactic." It's not going to fly here.
Marco| 10.3.10 @ 7:10PM
Jodi's probably fat, forty and forgotten. Poor slob.
Jack Olson| 9.30.10 @ 9:20AM
It is a myth that half of all marriages end in divorce. Actually, it's one in four. People notice that there are half as many divorces in a given year as there are marriages, so they conclude that half of the marriages end in divorce. What they overlook is that two-thirds of American adults are already married so the population eligible to divorce is twice the size of the population eligible to marry. Since most divorced people remarry, you could equally say that more than half of all divorces end in marriage.
Ned the Red| 9.30.10 @ 9:28AM
Does anyone think it might be better if these selfish women don't recreate. The only reason they purport to be now sad of their diminished egg supply is to gain fawning attention for the poor plight they have found themselves in.
I have nothing against them, but they made their bed, whether encouraged by a misguided society or not, and must now sleep in it, barren and cold as it is.
Ned the Red| 9.30.10 @ 9:42AM
Sorry folks, recreate should have been procreate, or maybe not.
Patriot| 9.30.10 @ 9:49PM
Nothing cold about you, Ned. No sireee!
Everyone is responsible for the mess we're in--male and female. It's pointless to blame one group.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:33AM
It's not pointless at all and it's not "everyone." It's perfectly reasonable to blame society's ills on the hedonists and self-worshippers walking among us.
Patriot| 10.3.10 @ 7:13PM
Exactly! MALE and female, right? Too many of the men posting here are blaming their ills on women in general. It's embarrassing for them and they don't even see it.
Killerman| 9.30.10 @ 9:45AM
Ouch!
Joe D.| 9.30.10 @ 9:50AM
The answer is to stop living in sin. Stop shacking up and living together first. It does not work. The divorce rate for those shaking up first is 30% higher than those getting married first. Check out the statistics with FL or Focas on the Family. It is very reveiling. This includes you Mr. Orlet.
Man shack up with women for a few years get what they want and realize she is more trouble than she is worth and leaves. They go into it as a trial not as committed individuals. Love is a committment not an emotion. Two imperfect people are not going to make a perfect marriage or relationship. It is work and well worth it.
That is my soap box for the day.
Dagny Taggert| 9.30.10 @ 10:34AM
Hey Joltin' Joe: The two aren't mutually exclusive. I joke around with my wife of 18 years (shacked up for 20+) that we have the one-night stand that never ended.
Melvin: Great piece. The truth is marriage IS a lot of work. And like all things in life, the payoff from hard work exceeds the amount of work put in.
Texas Mom 2010| 9.30.10 @ 3:04PM
Hubby and I have been married 23.8 years. Some were long and some ran quickly by. It is often hard work to remember why we love each other but it is found in quiet moments and small gestures. But our reward is in our family and our future together. We worked to build a life together. I feel sorry for those who never tried or who gave up without ever getting to that quiet moment of contentment and happiness with your life. I know that troubles will always come but we will work together to solve them and keep building this family.
Texas Mom2010| 9.30.10 @ 3:08PM
Will also have to say that I am grateful for the advice I got in my teens: watch how a man treats his mother, it is an indication of his character and possible commitment to family. I would add watch how he treats his friends: is he generous and trustworthy, willing to help without being asked? I strive to live up to the example of hubby, he is a great guy.
P. Smith| 9.30.10 @ 9:53AM
The reason many of these women are single is because they gave of themselves freely to boys who look like men.
Until men come to realize that manhood has nothing to with sports, hunting, building things, etc. (although I like all of these things), but instead involves a level of responsibility to GOD, his family and country we are doomed as a nation.
I married a little late in life (34), my wife and I immediately had two wonderful children and then she had a miscarriage and couldn’t seem to conceive again. We were content with the children that we were provided with and were doing just fine and then last year my wife became pregnant and had a little girl; so here I am at 46 with a one year old and let me tell you it is a wonderful thing. We are looking to the future and preparing the way for the next generation.
Mr Orlet you need to man up, marry your girlfriend and have some children. Then you will truly live and maybe you won’t be so lonely in your old age.
PolishKnight| 9.30.10 @ 1:42PM
P.Smith, it's statements like yours that are the reason why so many men here say they don't want to marry. If a man fails to do something, he's told to "man up" while feminism and chivalry tells women that life is one big playtime with titanic lifeboats, or welfare and child-support, when they crash into the iceberg.
So for men, here's the deal for "manning up". Work your butt off during your young years, then during your 20's and save up for that diamond ring, but don't save up too much! You gotta wine and dine the "traditional" ladies whether they have a career or not. Then, if you keep that wallet open (but not too open), you can get to marry her (after fooling around a little, one of the things that feminism/sexual revolution bought us). Of course, thanks to feminism and wage deflation you'll have to work as hard as your grandfather to make ends meet and pay for all the stuff that these women want such as full college educations for the daughters.
If you're good, or even if you're not, you have a 1 in 4, maybe, or 1 in 2 chance of getting divorced and losing everything.
Or you can choose to not "man up" and disappoint P. Smith.
Libtard| 10.5.10 @ 10:58AM
"Of course, thanks to feminism and wage deflation you'll have to work as hard as your grandfather to make ends meet and pay for all the stuff that these women want such as full college educations for the daughters."
Yeah, I know, they should be sending the sons to college while letting the daughters marry good men without troubling their pretty little heads about any of that education business, right?
Chumley| 10.6.10 @ 3:08AM
You're just as much of an extremist as he is, and you're just as blind, too.
dac| 9.30.10 @ 3:02PM
P. Smith just one objection, I would argue hunting and sports (at least) have a LOT to do with manhood, and that boys learn a great deal about how to become men by doing these things, ideally well before they give a damn about women at all. While I agree these are a level below God, family and country, I'd say they are a very close fourth, or at least in what's left of real America, part of the "country" itself.
And the way this country is headed, if you can't hunt your family is quite likely to starve or live in a government-run tenement high-rise in a large city, living off of ration coupons.
Gwen| 10.1.10 @ 1:00PM
P. Smith is exactly the kind of man every woman in her right mind would love to have as a husband. His wife and children must adore him.
Way to go, Mr. Smith!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:35AM
AMEN!! Manhood is saying what you mean, meaning what you say, saying what you'll do, and doing what you say. The rest is trivial. Jesus was the ultimate "real man."
KyMouse| 9.30.10 @ 9:57AM
The sexual revolution that picked up steam in the Sixties turned out to be a minefield for women. The right to say "yes" became the obligation to say "yes," if the gal ever wanted to see the guy again. By the time I entered college in 1971, I met very few guys who would date a gal for more than a few times unless she "went all the way." Men quickly realized that they could have all the sex they wanted, without any responsibility. No more "doing the honorable thing" if the gal became pregnant. The most he might feel obliged to do was pay for aborting his baby.
Brave new world, indeed.
When pondering the pool of unmarried women out there, I think it's important to remember that in our culture, men still do almost all of the proposing. Many women would loved to have married in their 20s or 30s, but no one has asked them.
PolishKnight| 9.30.10 @ 1:44PM
It's amusing that women supposedly can't do the proposing but they don't mind banging down the boardroom to get a bigger paycheck.
KyMouse, either they should be treated as equals or not. They can't abort their baby and legally abandon it too.
renee6| 9.30.10 @ 2:34PM
You seem to be saying that a woman must sleep with a man to have a boyfriend. I graduated high school in 1974 and went to a Christian college. It WASN"T expected that we would sleep with our boyfriends. Both my husband and I were virgins when we married. I guess it all depended on where you went to find boyfriends. Don't date those types - find a boy or girl friend who shares your values. Better chance of being together for life.
Lark| 10.1.10 @ 12:03AM
PK is a bitter old man who blames his life's problems on the women who had the unfortunate experience of marrying him. Sad.
PolishKnight| 10.1.10 @ 10:39AM
Is that the best you can do?
Lark| 10.1.10 @ 1:14PM
I don't blame my shortcomings on others, and I find it tedious that you do. You need to grow up.
PolishKnight| 10.1.10 @ 6:13PM
Isn't that precisely what you're doing now? Blaming your shortcomings on me?
It takes two to tango!
Lark| 10.2.10 @ 2:00AM
No, I don't blame you for cold, heartless men; why blame me for nasty women?
You've never tango'd in your life, admit it.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:38AM
He's calling you on your BS. Deal with it, pollack.
Marco| 10.3.10 @ 7:17PM
Stop thinking with your groin, boy. Lark's right.
Whiny men like you need to grow a pair.
Roughcoat| 9.30.10 @ 10:06AM
My wife and I have been married 30 years. We couldn't have children, alas. We tired; but, paraphrasing "Raising Arizona," "biology and unkind fate conspired to leave us childless."
Sometimes the choices are made for you, and are not always to your liking.
Deb| 9.30.10 @ 10:54AM
There is another segment of society among women I know: the homeschool mom with over the average number of children. Among my friends most have college degrees and while not having financial employment are quite employed teaching and raising children. My husband and I work together at raising our children. It is a challenge, but a lot of fun.
kerry| 9.30.10 @ 11:03AM
The article seems to have a nasty undertone about women who haven't married. Very judgemental and snide. I think the term spinster is very demeaning. Do they call unmarried men something similar? Or is it just women who get this treatment?
PJ| 9.30.10 @ 11:27AM
I agree that the article has a somewhat nasty tone. That being said the overwhelming number of women that I know who have never been married were envious, judgmental, and snide to me, a married woman w/children who freely choose her lifestyle. And these single older women are not strangers but relatives!
If the article was about single older men, I would imagine the article would be 2x as long. ----- Hell, they're in worse shape then single older women. They even die sooner!
Texas mom 2010| 9.30.10 @ 3:14PM
The same type that judge you if you don't breast feed. None of the women in my family have need able to breast feed since my great grandmother's time, yet since I didn't breast feed I was often questioned about it. It was not the feminists or the home-school bunches place to question or vilify my choices. Especially since it was not really a choice at all.
Lark| 10.1.10 @ 12:05AM
People should mind their own business; hopefully, they meant well. I'm sure you've been a great mom.
kerry| 10.1.10 @ 1:50PM
Well, I'm 41, single, attractive, definitely NOT snide, pretty kind actually. I'm not selfish because I didn't get married earlier. I just wasn't ready, I guess according to others I had issues :) Now I am dating someone, who knows, it may happen!
But, when people see me I don't think the word "spinster" comes to mind. I keep seeing a bent over gray hair in a bun in a long black dress lol. I guess I hate stereotypes, and also some of the really mean things being said here. Seems conservatives are just as bad about it as the libs!!! But, I am pretty much in agreement that the progressive movement has been very destructive to relationships. Abortion really hurt women, I think.
Sane Jane| 10.1.10 @ 3:27PM
You have your examples of the types of men here who whine about and blame women. Those are the kind to steer clear of. They are not conservative. Though they enjoy stereo-typing women it is they who by doing so stereo-type themselves. It's the "loser" category.
Best wishes to you, kerry.
Patriot| 10.1.10 @ 4:16PM
Kerry and Jane--you both sound sane--thank God for sanity!
BTW, Jane, I agree with you about the "loser" category! It would be so nice if we just stopped blaming others for our mistakes and took responsibility for our own actions
JMM| 9.30.10 @ 11:04AM
Hey, Orlet move to a better neighborhood and get a new "girlfriend". Might change your outlook.
Are you a Metrosexual?
skip| 9.30.10 @ 11:10AM
The lasting impression this article gave me is that the nuclear family (father, mother, children) is the ideal arrangement. God created this arrangement and the Bible supports this position. satan is attacking the family from both extremes. I believe liberalism is satan's effective tool to accomplish this.
John| 9.30.10 @ 11:26AM
After twelve years of being divorced, I have met dozens of the type of women mentioned in the article. To them I say too bad, so sad.
Nobama| 10.1.10 @ 4:18PM
They probably say the same thing about you, John.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:40AM
Too bad those who say that about John are not only dead-wrong, but not even aware that they're wrong.
CaroJ| 10.3.10 @ 10:05AM
Yeah... how dare they make a difference choice than you!! the wanton whores!
You're pathetic.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 7:18PM
Wanton whore? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black, CaroJ?
Jack Olson| 9.30.10 @ 11:30AM
In March, 2008, Lori Gottlieb raised this provocative topic in her article, "The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough." She expanded her argument into a book in which she compared single women in their twenties to single men in their forties. Both are more in demand than in supply, hence can afford to be choosy. Conversely, single men in their twenties and single women in their forties are more in supply than in demand. Their hopes for romance are more frequently dashed, especially since the young men are competing with men older and more advanced in their careers while the 40+ women are competing with younger, better looking women. Part of the tragedy of this is that one reason single men 40+ are single is that the experience of rejection in their twenties made them give up on love. Another part of the tragedy is that the single women in their twenties fail to foresee the rejection they're going to get if they're single in their forties.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:43AM
Reminds me of all those women I tried to date in my 20s (they were the same age) who were "too busy" to spend 20 minutes having a sandwich with me. I often wonder where they are now. A lot of them are probably successful-but-barren 30-somethings wondering where their youth went and where Mr Right is.
I sure got tired of their flimsy excuses. Most of them probably weren't anywhere near "too busy" to put out for some guy who would use and abuse them & kick them out in the morning. Meanwhile I had a lot to offer them - devotion, a family, love...and they weren't interested.
Let them lie in the beds they've made. I've got a family now and a woman who appreciates me. They missed out.
Royale| 10.3.10 @ 7:20PM
Too bad your poor wife didn't.
Jeff Krasney| 9.30.10 @ 11:46AM
I love childless unmarried women who are past age 40. They are easy to get into bed, expect so little from me, and are so plentiful that I can always have at least two of them in my life. I am one of feminism's biggest winners.
RCV| 9.30.10 @ 11:52AM
If that works for you, fine. But it sounds like a pretty shallow life to me.
Onyx| 10.1.10 @ 12:07AM
It is shallow. Jeff will die alone and no one will care that he's dead. Some winner.
Jeff Krasney| 10.3.10 @ 12:23PM
Please help me to understand your thoughts. I think you are suggesting that I limit myself to one woman so that she will be unhappy when I die.
I have had over 130 women in the last 5 years. I did not invent feminism and Match.com; I have only turned them to my advantage. The women I am with know the score; they would have married when they were twenty years younger if they wanted a husband and a family. I love my life and will continue loving as many women as I want until I die.
Gloria| 10.3.10 @ 7:23PM
I hope you and the hundreds and thousands of women you sleep with double-bag yourselves for protection. YUCKO!
I wouldn't sleep with a man-whore like you--I wouldn't even want to touch a man-whore like you.
Jeff Krasney| 10.4.10 @ 12:06PM
I doubt that I would be attracted to you so you probably would never get the chance to touch me. I am only with women who have at least a college degree, a good figure, and more than average beauty. Further, I prefer for my women to have at least one graduate degree and to be liberals. I can afford to be choosy because I like women who are around my age, and there are at least ten women who are in their early fifties to every eligible man.
You sound like just another judgmental conservative. I am having fun and not hurting anyone; and the women I am with are also having fun. Why can't you be happy too?
Gloria| 10.5.10 @ 1:42AM
Yes, every one of the thousands of women you sleep with are gorgeous MENSA super models with pearly white teeth and perfect bodies--of course. Why would an Einstein like you who is the spitting image of Brad Pitt screw any one else? LOL
I don't whore around like your one-night stands, so you wouldn't get the chance to be attracted to me.
Of course your "ladies" are liberals--they do their best work on their backs!
Libtard| 10.5.10 @ 11:09AM
I dunno; while I do pretty good work on my back, I do pretty good work in school, too, or my GPA attests to that, at least. However, my teachers probably just wanted to have sex with me, even the straight women. I couldn't possibly have the intellect with which to actually do well in college. After all, if I did, I would believe in a being for whom there is as much evidence as there is for the Tooth Fairy, and I would blindly follow anyone and anything that claimed to speak on its behalf.
Gloria| 10.5.10 @ 3:23PM
Jeff, you and Libtard sound like you were made for each other. She could be your next one-night stand! You might be slumming it with her, though, she doesn't have multiple degrees that you demand in your boytoys.
Seek| 9.30.10 @ 11:47AM
The notion that childless equals "selfish" is misleading. Personally, I can't imagine any adults more selfish than parents trying to outdo other parents in fecundity, creating a Quiverfull of kids they can't afford. That ridiculous Duggar family -- 19 kids and still growing. Now, that's selfish.
In any event, most single women really do want kids. Otherwise, why would all these fertility clinics be popping up all around the country? As for married women...yes, they're having kids. For confirmation, look around the aisles of any local Bed Bath & Beyond or Chuck E. Cheese. There are real babies inside those strollers.
Richard| 9.30.10 @ 12:08PM
Being a parent requires selflessness not selfishness. You sound like you are trying to justify your selfishness.
Seek| 9.30.10 @ 12:38PM
I know, first-hand, parenting is work. But some parents collect kids like trophies.
In any event, women want, and are having, kids. The Upper West Side of Manhattan, as cosmopolitan a neighborhood as you can get, is filled with young moms. Take a look. Forget the Allan Carlson-style caricature. Having babies is natural. And most women are having them. There is no need to press the panic button.
walt| 9.30.10 @ 9:29PM
Being a good parent requires selflessness. The fact that you have children doesn't instantly make you a good parent.
scotchieguy| 9.30.10 @ 11:54AM
What perfect timing! I have a sister who lives in Chicago (successful, never married, no kids, 52), who is coming to Mpls to run a marathon. See if she doesn't fit the mode--She has arranged the entire weekend around her and her narcissistic self...Dad will pick her up at airport, take her out to dinner, she will crash at his place, then she arranged for four of us family members to play golf at his club at 8:00 AM, which means two of us miss most of work that day, then she has a bar-b-q arranged at her cousins in her honor, and we are all to attend, then, she wants me to pick her up at 5:00 AM to get the prelim for the race, then of course we all show up to cheer her on at the race, then it is dinner at Dad's club, then dad takes her to the airport--a true rock-star in her own lil world. When she turned 50--and I am not making this up--she had a huge party for herself in Chicago, where she bought 50 tix for the Cubs game, all in one section, dinner and drinks, and more dinner and drinks, and then the grande finale--she chartered a huge boat for a cruise down the Chicago River, w/ drinks, dinner, a non stop slide show of, of course, her and her wonderful life, a drunken speech, more drinks, dancing , the works...then more drinks and mayhem at her 25th floor condo til 5:00 AM. The best part was she extended invites to do the Cub's game for as many as could attend for the her 51st b-day, and her 52nd b-day...I am not kidding!!! I had to explain that I had a thing, and couldn't attend...
HorstSchmidt| 9.30.10 @ 12:39PM
Dude, if you despise your sister so, why are you showing up at any of her events? For the free drinks and Cubs tix? Or is the real story here that you are jealous -- that everyone likes her better, that she's hugely successful, that she knows how to arrange a party people want to attend? I'm glad you're not my brother.
scotchieguy| 9.30.10 @ 7:00PM
You missed my point. Don't you think there is something verrrrrrrry wrong w/ someone who would actually throw a 50th b-day party for themselves? I wouldn't do that for a million bucks. Have you no humility? And the silly marathon is another example of her screaming: "look at me!!! look at me!!!" If you don't get it, you are just like her--narcissistic.
S.| 9.30.10 @ 9:07PM
I see nothing wrong with it. She treated 50 people to a baseball game and a memorable evening. She runs marathons and plays golf! I think it's cool that she isn't sitting around and feeling bad that she never met society's expectations about getting married and producing children.
Dan Hirsch| 9.30.10 @ 10:41PM
Ooooh! Playing golf, buying tickets to the baseball gam, running marathons!!! What wonderful contributions to our world. At least the poor schlep woman who finds the poor schlep who'll marry her and love her and support her and their children will eventually have grandchildren to smile at.
The buyer of tickets and runner of marathons always can look at her American Express receipts and Certificates of Completion! Ha! She'll find herself alone someday and be bitter that her family doesn't care. You only get out what you put in, yet even less! I hope she has a dog!
Elizabeth| 10.1.10 @ 12:14AM
Who is she hurting? I wish she were my sister, she sounds so generous.
Who died and made you the marriage judge? You're as smug and self-satisfied as Derek--and twice as obnoxious!
Not everyone is cut out to be a good mother or father. You sound like a nit-picky buttinsky.
Mind your own business.
Charles| 9.30.10 @ 11:57AM
these single women are in reality, victims of the BS that they bought into feminism. Most, if not all of the college instructors are lesbians and why not spread the misery...hey, I'am miserable why shouldn't you be?
Hey, why should I put on make-up and do my hair for some MAN! I'll just wear these sweats through college and if I do meet a man, he'd better be willing to do 50% of all chores and sign an agreement to that fact. Cook? get real, my mother did that for my dadand brothers and sisters and it sucks....what was she thinking? If the guy wants to eat, pull up to a drive-in because I'am not into that typical June Cleaver scene.
I want to use my education by attending political events and stand up for women rights. Kids? get real, I am not going to do that diaper, walk in the park , or soccer thing. If a man wants me, then he's going have to be into Marxism, Feminism, Evolution, and pleassssssssssseeee, no religious nuts. By the way, I voted for Obama and you can see me on my facebook. Sincerely, Marta Goldblatt
Texas Mom 2010| 9.30.10 @ 3:22PM
LOL, well we negotiated 23 years ago. I don't do ironing (dress shirts to cleaners and jeans? He can iron those. Which he does not so it was really important, was it?) I don't do windows. I do cook most nights and pack lunches and usually breakfast as well. I also do all finances bills etc. We agreed 2 kids with an option for a third, unfortunately he would have loved to have more but second was really too hard on my legs... I think I may fit on the fringe? Maybe not.
Texas Mom 2010| 9.30.10 @ 3:26PM
And household laundry, chauffeur, cleaning, vacation planning, etc. Guess I am the majordomo.
scythe| 9.30.10 @ 4:23PM
LOL! You get the picture!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:48AM
Charles your comment is pure gold. I'm going to steal it for reposting I think.
Pauley Walnuts| 10.3.10 @ 2:44PM
Who the hell is Marta Golblatt?
Susie Q| 9.30.10 @ 12:27PM
I hope your next article will be about the pathetic, 40+ year old men who are dating girls barely out of high school, driving Corvettes, and wearing sneakers with their 3-piece suits.
Steve A| 9.30.10 @ 12:35PM
Susie, You have just described me in one sentence, except I wear fuzzy Crocs. What are you doing later??......
Susie Q| 9.30.10 @ 1:40PM
I'd love to meetcha, but I gotta wash my hair...
Steve A| 9.30.10 @ 2:42PM
Ah, Rejected again. Guess I will go wax my Vette:)
HC| 9.30.10 @ 6:29PM
So, when rejected, THAT's the new euphemism for....waxing your...
Tommy| 10.1.10 @ 12:15AM
Someone's got his mind in the gutter.
gearjammer| 9.30.10 @ 2:10PM
How about pathetic 60 plus men who ogle and flirt with young girls and then write about it in their public diaries. They also wear 3 piece suits and host game shows. STEIN? STEIN? STEIN?
Charlie Harper| 9.30.10 @ 3:41PM
Yeah, the way I see it is if a guy has a woman to do his laundry and clean up his place, and another for a little action on the side, why would he ever get married unless he has a sick compulsion to give up half his stuff? You gotta love womens lib.
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 12:16AM
ahole. lol
Bet you need Viagra.
Moo| 10.1.10 @ 11:48AM
Well like the old saying goes, "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?"
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 1:17PM
Yup. Women give themselves away for nothin' these days.
Female self-respect is at a low ebb, unfortunately.
Steve B | 9.30.10 @ 12:32PM
I had always wanted to have kids, but my relationship experience was rather like those women you described. Finally I met a woman who wanted kids, wanted them young, and was willing to take the risk at precisely the time I'd given up hope. (In Poland where May-December marriages are more common and accepted.)
Our first child was born just after I turned 50, our second when I was 54.
It's been a blast! Raising kids is even more fun than making them.
Yes, we know what it means. And yes, it's one of Mother Nature's terrible injustices this is a last chance open only to men. No regrets.
sandy| 9.30.10 @ 2:52PM
Good for you!! And, thanks for sharing. Keep making your Blast!
Steve B | 9.30.10 @ 8:09PM
Reminds me of funny story I heard while living in Bulgaria in the late '90s.
At a university function I had the pleasure of hearing an opera recital by a lovely young Bulgarian woman. Later I heard she had won several international competitions and a full scholarship offer to the U.S.
When she went to the American Embassy to apply for a visa, she was turned down by the woman running the desk that day.
This woman told her, "Oh you beautiful Bulgarian girls, you just want to go to America and get married to an American boy. Then what will our poor girls do?"
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 12:19AM
Yeah, American women are so ugly and all. I see tons of beautiful women everyday.
Must be something about you, Stevie.
PolishKnight| 10.1.10 @ 10:52AM
Meow! Give AJ a platter of milk!
Actually, there's no need to go to Eastern Europe. Even Western Europe has tons more pretty women than here. Then again, the USA has a much more severe obesity problem than anywhere else in the world (except perhaps jolly ol' England.)
AJ, it's not just the overall appearance either but the... look. I can actually tell where someone is from by their walk, their facial expressions, etc in addition to the way they dress. I've been to 4 continents. It's fascinating.
If American women wanted to be "equal" to men they achieved in one fashion: They are "like" men in much the way they walk or pay attention to their dress. They may blow money at salons or on designer bags, but in terms of the care they put into their apparance, it's like they pull on their clothes like a tomboy teenager.
When a foreign woman enters the room... there's sparks! When an American woman enters the room... the men all look the other way (for fear of getting nailed with a sexual harassment lawsuit) but no need... nothing to see anyway. Move along.
Do you remember the film 9 to 5 when Dolly Parton and her feminist/feminine heroines sought to rescue the workplace from the evil "male chauvanist pig" who wanted the whole place to be drab and colorless? The ladies came in and freed the workers to decorate and personalize their cubes. That was in the early 80's.
Then Anita "two fer" Hill came along. Thanks to feminism, it's work work work and don't dare say anything personal otherwise a frumpy comfortable-shoe wearing harpy will screech "inappropriate conduct". Then offices began requiring women to dress frumpy and non-sexy precisely to protect themselves from allegations the men MIGHT be thinking about sex. Kind of like a corporate burka.
Enjoy the "safe" environment, "ladies", and don't forget: You're buying your own diamonds!
Mirror| 10.1.10 @ 11:54AM
Like attracts like. Maybe it has something to do with you.
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 1:23PM
PK is most likely a balding, 400 pound flounder. Yum, yum.
I'm sure young, younger, youngest gorgeous girls everywhere swoon in his presence--because he's hogging all of the oxygen in the room.
Bitter bitter on the wall, who's the whiniest of them all? PK of course!
PolishKnight| 10.1.10 @ 6:17PM
My oh my, AJ is smitten with me! [blush!]
Tell you what, I don't weight 400 lbs but I'll be the first to say that I'm not good looking. And I'm ok with that. Men are expected to bring more than looks to a relationship and this has not changed one bit since women's so-called liberation.
It's ok to shoot the messenger because at least you've gotten the message: all the goodies that feminism and women's equality and hyperchivalry granted women does not make them more attractive to the traditional men nearly all of them crave.
The notion of women's equality today is about as sensible as society's belief a few centuries ago in flying witches. They seem real at the time but laughable to people before and after the period. It's wonderful to think outside of the box!
CaroJ| 10.1.10 @ 8:20PM
Feminism saved me! I wouldn't give 2 cents for a "traditional" man... which is just a euphemism for someone who expects his wife to be a slave (or someone who openly admits he doesn't believe in equal rights for half the population of the world!)
Luckily, dinosaurs like you will die off soon and all people will enjoy equal rights.
No Femi-Nazis!| 10.2.10 @ 1:53AM
Great! A femi-nazi has appeared to spew her hate.
You're going to die alone, bimbo; luckily you didn't have any children you screwed up. Lucky them.
CaroJ| 10.2.10 @ 11:12AM
Hey, Mr No Femi-Nazis!
I think everybody with one iota of sense can see who's spewing hatred here... at all women who don't act like Stepford Wives.
And what makes you think I'm alone? Not every man in the world thinks like a caveman.
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 1:08PM
CaroJ,. I'm amused that you accuse us cavemen of wanting stepford wives and then you turn around and say you don't want to be involved with a man whose too uppity.
Believe it or not, I respect that. I think if all the breadwinning men put their foot down in a similar fashion, that would be the end of fake-women's equality for 90% of women and the movement would die in seconds. In some ways, that's already happening as style sections are full of career women griping "why are men so rude" (as in, "Why do guys refuse to pay our way on our terms?")
We're providing them with the answer. If you are uninterested in traditional men who pay your way, well, good for you but you comprise a fraction of women. The rest of them still want a man to support them either directly or indirectly via the welfare state.
It's funny you accuse us of being the cavemen when, as I said, it's women who really haven't changed all that much (where it counts) and western society hates itself and welcomes peoples from patriarchal nations to immigrate. Care to test that dying out hypothesis in France?
Regarding half the planet and equal rights. Do you think children should be allowed to vote? I don't mind it provided they pass the same civics exam that every immigrant needs to take. Why do we allow citizens the right to vote based arbitrarily upon age?
Aaron| 10.2.10 @ 1:18PM
Dear CaroJ,
You've obviously been ripped-off by some slob you call "traditional". He wasn't traditional. He (or they) were jerks. A traditional man marries his wife and it's "until death do we part." He doesn't treat her like a slave. Let's face it. Some men make good husbands and some don't. Some women make good wives and some don't. We can't say that men are evil or that women are evil. The "battle of the sexes" is from the devil and boy is he laughing. He loves the fact that there is so much divorce. He loves the fact that there are tons of kids that don't have two parents. When we reject God and His word we will have hell to pay. Unfortunately, these innocent kids have to pay. Quit being selfish bastards and jezebels!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 3:57AM
It's OK if you're bitter and nasty toward us traditional males. You clearly won't be breeding (as nobody would be interested in a nasty little witch like you for anything beyond a one-night stand). And that's probably a good thing for America.
The harpies are the real dinosaurs around here, and like the dinos, they're the ones going extinct.
AJ K| 10.2.10 @ 1:56AM
Yes, good looks aren't necessary, but men are expected to bring balls to a relationship.
TKP| 9.30.10 @ 12:46PM
In social engineering, as in business - you get more of what you compensate for -
Reality sucks - Men like women sacrifice for career, the difference is that most "career-men" have wives, and women bear children. Much as our progressive friends would like to, that is biological fact. Women pay a higher price no doubt, liberation comes with consequence.
This whole two parent "family thing" really has some merit. The greatest blessing in life is to meet and marry a true partner in your 20's and live life and raise a family as a team, and be young enogh to enjoy the empty nest and grandchildren.
When both white and black Americans value that picture more, we will be a healthier society. Oh, and our increasingly leviathan gov't could help by not encouraging the opposite, by taxing the ideal.
Teresa in Fort Worth, TX| 9.30.10 @ 1:43PM
I'm so tired of hearing that misleading "Half of all marriages end in divorce" statement! If it's repeated enough, pretty soon people start to believe it.
Yes, there may well be 1/2 as many divorces in any given year as there are marriages; however, the number of divorces in any given year has to be measured against ALL intact marriages at any given p0int in time to give an accurate statistic.
Lord save us from social scientists and journalists who never had to take more than a basic math class in their collegiate career.....
skip| 9.30.10 @ 4:33PM
I haven't seen the numbers in maybe 5 to 10 years, but the last research I saw the divorce rate was 50% overall but the divorce rate for first time marriages was 70%.
duck| 9.30.10 @ 1:48PM
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
The strong, self-willed woman who stands on their own, forges their own life path without the male interference, assistance, or companionship is lauded as what the female of the species is supposed to be. Then, after achieving their purposeful mate-less goal, she starts whimpering about achieving what was, at least, subconsciously, but more often, purposely, their desired existence.
Only the female can obtain their desires and then complain about them once they get them. Having things both ways is definitely a female trait....
I state this from the view that a bachelor is most often described as a selfish, self-centered, SOB no matter what level of success he may have achieved.
CaroJ| 10.1.10 @ 8:25PM
Well, the comments on this website prove that you have the equation exactly backwards. Bachelors are viewed as men who have it all, with their choice of which women to bed. Women who choose to forgo marriage and/or children are called just about every nasty name imaginable. For what? Choosing to do what they want to do? And harming no one in the process?
Most of the commenters here are vile, disgusting people.
Elizabeth| 10.2.10 @ 1:50AM
Pot call kettle, CaroJ--you're the nasty snot all of these men are complaining about.
Go away.
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 8:57AM
Nope, Carol's comment is on the money, "Elizabeth"...or is it really "Edward"?
CaroJ| 10.2.10 @ 11:15AM
Jodi,
Good to know I'm not the only one here who doesn't have blinders on.
teedub| 10.2.10 @ 4:17PM
Jodi & CaroJ - Nope, you two aren't the only blinder-free commenters. count me in!
My impression is that because these so-called "selfish" women are effectively now beyond the control of men (economic, emotional, etc) they feel the need to lash out and stomp their feet like children who didn't get a cookie.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:00AM
Three fools agreeing with each other does not equal truth. Now do like Eliz said, and kindly piss off.
Gloria| 10.3.10 @ 7:25PM
They're a self-extinguishing population; soon they'll be dead and forgotten. Yay!
Big Leo| 9.30.10 @ 2:31PM
My parents had four children. I had four children. And so on. Virtually all of them are conservatives.
I have no objections to liberals not breeding. It will clean up the gene pool wonderfully.
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 8:59AM
Are you planning to kick any kids who don't agree with you out of the family? Political party affiliation is not genetically coded.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:02AM
Maybe Leo is banking on solid parenting as a vaccination, against heathen progressive values taking root in the first place. Then there's no need to talk stupidly about kicking the left-wingers out of the family.
Mark Shepler- Jupiter, FL| 9.30.10 @ 2:43PM
Well, now, another topic on which I can pontificate but this time with some actual authority.
I am married 23 years to a girl I've known for 32, since we were 17 and 16. We met in my apartment in the fall of '78 (funny story) and after screwing up the courage to ask her out before she left my pad and was gone forever I found that she lived only a block away. Thereafter I picked her up from high school on my motorcycle, doting boyfriend that I was, and I am probably the rare guy nowadays who can say he attended his wife's HS graduation. We have six children, three boys, three girls. The oldest is 18 and the youngest 9, both boys. We hail from "dysfunctional" homes, in today's therapeutic language, which is to say we are children of divorce as well. I have been the sole support of my gang since 1990 and through the years our fortunes have risen and fallen within the sub-strata of the middle-class, having our ups and downs as the self-employed are wont to do. Presently, things could be better but who among us cannot say that in these perilous times of Democratic Voodoo economics?
Our children were home schooled with each entering public schools at various ages and once we determined they were ready. By that we mean they have a solid sense of who they are, our values and our confidence they'll withstand the pressures to conform to the cult of self-centered teenagerism fostered in those places like a toxic bacteria in a petri dish. That point is reached at different ages for different children. They have never gotten all that they want but have had all that they need not the least their loving parents together with them. They have always had to share everything- space, bedrooms, toys, clothes, our attention and the family limelight. They have learned to wait their turn, consider others and sacrifice a personal want or desire for the greater good of a sibling or the whole family. They know the meaning of no and what it is to wait for things or on the Lord. They have been raised religiously but not overbearingly so and know that God is in charge of their lives and there is an accounting due for them one day. And above all else each knows to his or her core from their earliest moments that he or she is not the center of the universe and that at all times and all places there are other people in the world around them who's feelings, sentiments, values, safety and wellbeing demand and deserve consideration. They know these things because I say it just that way to them but more so because they have always lived it.
It is a constant entertainment to us to see others' reactions whenever we go out for dinner or some other public place. About five years ago we went to Disneyworld and wore bright yellow t-shirts for easy kid-tracking and caused quite a stir with all the one-child foreigners once they figured out we were a family and not some school or church group. And we cause a stir with many of our countrymen as well. Since we live in a semi-rural district outside of what passes for a smallish town in S. Florida the reactions are generally positive. I attribute this to the fact that most of our neighbors are blue-collar, self-employed contractors or service business owners, many police and firefighters and other regular folks. In other words, the kind of normal, unpretentious, live-and-let-live people expected to pay the country's bills but that all of the other kind, the Ruling Class kind, now find so threatening to our politics this season. The Tea Party is big in these parts. Prior to moving here we lived in the type of suburbs full of those other kind- professionals, corporate clones, academics, social climbers and other status-seeking desperados. My main motivation to move from there in 2000, apart from burgeoning space requirements, was the atmosphere of near hostility to our fish-out-of-water brood amongst the oh-so tolerant and sophisticated in-crowd. Actually, it was more of a shunning that my wife and kids experienced particularly from the other women as though they thought whatever afflicted us might be catching. More on them below.
Those folks had one child, two max, and "needed" a nanny for that. To them it seemed children are more of a "lifestyle accessory", as I coined it then, to fill out the parent's self-portrait than autonomous human beings one is responsible to raise up to be good people first and "successful" after, as Dennis Prager puts it. As I've also scolded my more self-absorbed acquaintances, "they're not pets, they're people". Each of their children had his own room, tv, music, computer, etc. and it seemed they were more like a collection of individual bubbles bouncing off one another than a family. For them life is all about your address, the car you drive, whether you belong to the country club, where your kids go to school, the clothes you wear, the golf clubs you swing, etc., etc., etc. (I used to think that was a cartoon of the upper middle-class brandished by the left but it is true. The irony is that individually most were from modest beginnings and had worked their way up but once caught up in the game a mass psychology sort of takes over and it becomes about whether you're in or out. There is no between, if you're not in, by definition you are out and the only way in is to conform in every way. But that dissertation is for another day.) I got sick of seeing 17 year old kids driving around in $60,000 cars Daddy had bought Jr. because Daddy's never around and the car is to assuage his guilt more than anything else. I remember a couple we knew went to Europe for over a month, leaving their underage kids a no-limit card with which to fend for themselves. Is it no wonder then such kids, in the absence of parents but fully funded, come to think there are no limits? It was also no coincidence that very top-shelf neighborhood had the fastest growing gang problem in the county. The cause wasn't broken homes in the usual sense and certainly wasn't poverty, it was self-absorbed, preoccupied parents, money to burn and as is true for all young men, a yen for action.
And now, about the women and kids. The reactions of women are generally positive or generally negative as broken down by the two groups above. Curiously, men are generally openly positive, the slackers extremely so by way of dispelling any suspicion they're not sufficiently family friendly, and rare is the man who is openly contemptuous. I readily acknowledge many are simply grateful it is me, and not them, in my situation but I’ll take good will where I can. Women on the other hand make no bones about where they stand and they definitely stand in one of two places. The regular gals tend to be good-heartedly accepting and supportive. Even though the vast majority also have one, two or three children, "live and let live" is their motto in practice and kindness their gift to us. If anything a wish they could've had more children is more likely to be heard from them. The "professional" or yuppie wives much less so and more often are not only contemptuous but hostile. A woman once approached my wife in a play area with her solitary young daughter in tow and began to ask the usual questions until finally she came out with it, "why would anyone want five (at the time) children?" with just that special mix of plastic-smile, sneering contempt that women reserve for each other. My wife has been excluded from civic groups, shunned, ridiculed, embarrassed, turned away from functions and other acts of banishment simply because she's the mother of six children by such as she. Once a woman asked my wife for help with some new playgroup or such and then refused my wife's calls once she had been to our home and learned of our gang. We drove over to her home only to have the woman ignore her knocking though we could see her in the house. They never spoke again and I’ll always remember my wife’s confusion and pain over the snub. For years in that 'burb she was cross-examined disapprovingly by every gal she met about her "choice" to have our children as was I. And always, it is the professional, yuppie broads whose wrath we feel and true to form, for all their blather about "choices" it is them for whom only a certain choices are valid.
I've always been sympathetic to women and though many be bitches-on-wheels in those yuppie 'burbs I feel for them, too. Modern women have created a hell for, and all by, themselves with a conundrum of what their "choices", that most sacred good to the sisterhood, mean to their identity, self-worth and acceptance among other women. And the real punch line is that no matter what they're worth is still tied to and semi-dependent on what their men do. It goes like this: If you work, that's ok, so long as you're a physician, attorney, accountant or other professional. But if you're an RN, teacher, paralegal or other non-professional well, it must be you HAVE to work because your husband doesn't do well enough. Similarly, if you don't work it's ok, so long as you don't actually take care of your children or keep house but instead employ a nanny and maid while you shop and busy your days with your "friends". But if you actually take care of the kids and household it MUST be because your husband doesn't do well enough. In both case of working or non-working the divide between the "choices" and concomitant disdain is open, severe and one-way. Yes, men have our own class distinctions too but any guy will acknowledge they're not nearly so narrow and we respect what another man can do. On the personal level every professional man of soft hands and clean collar respects the man who can actually build or fix something, saves lives or keeps the peace or otherwise takes up the more arduous duties of our world. Indeed, many a softer man secretly admires such fellows and, at times, privately "holds his manhood cheap" whenever they have the floor. What pencil-pushing man has never once longed for a life of more direct action with its more direct results?
In my work travels I have found the same delineations amongst the women to be true. I am an insurance agent and financial advisor for 23 years and have made a market of working with Realtors for the last 12 (thus, my business straits), a group comprised of 89% females, average age 54, predominately divorced or widowed. I have learned there is no creature more unsympathetic to children or more generally self-centered than a barren, hard-shelled, 50-something professional or corporate-type woman. They are categorically worse than their male counterparts. It's as though having forgone the maternal urge to pursue the self that very yearning continually denied has curdled to a kind of hate. It didn't turn all at once but rather, having rebuffed its call over and over through the years and now realizing it can never be, they've turned their disappointment into a burning anger at the very object of their longing. Indeed, the sisterhood coaxed them along in their quest for "self-actualization", "self-fulfillment", self, self, self all these years with the lie, among others, that the very notion of a maternal urge was bunk and so encouraged them to forsake the one true thing that sets them apart, indeed ennobles them, from men. They were sold on the idea they could deny the ultimate expression and meaning of womanhood and remain fully a woman merely because they assert it so. That may be objectively true but my guess is they don't really think so deep down themselves just as those of us with softer hands look on our harder fellows with a certain admiration and acknowledgement regarding manhood. Instead, they set out to be "just another man" and 30 years on discovered to their dismay the insufficiencies of "careers" as fulfillment that men have always known and are all the more empty for having rejected the one supreme, lasting, meaningful thing they alone can do. I suspect some are more than a little chagrined for having been so duped as well. It's as though a day comes they realize fully and truly the inheritance they cast aside so carelessly for what turned out to be a mess of pottage and are now enraged. It's no wonder they almost cannot stand to have children about.
So they are left to put on a bold face, adopt and fuss over a doggy-as-surrogate baby or kitty-kat, feather their nest with creature comforts, arts and crafts, entertain themselves with shallow diversions, cling to unattached and ambivalent men like themselves and cluck and sneer at the "lesser" women who "chose" differently, more fully from life, than they. They dread the darkening notion Barbara Bush once spoke that on her death bed she would not regret losing one more contract or business deal but would go fulfilled knowing she ushered in and nurtured new life, the next generation and executed the ultimate thing it means to be a woman. That she had brought not just another mouth to feed into this world but a new human being who goes on to matter and make the difference to other human beings. Through her was yielded love into this world. But our gal knows a lonelier end awaits the barren and that they will die un-mourned or missed by anyone only they themselves could have "chosen" would be there had they only chosen wiser. Having made their bargain 20 or 30 years ago, it all seems so unfair, now.
What they’ve done with their lives is not my business, my observations notwithstanding, and for those who chose barrenness and spinsterhood I say more power to them and wish them well. After all, both my step-mother and younger sister are childless. Given their apparent disdain for children and the impediment to one’s own pursuits they may present it’s probably one of God’s mercies spinsters are indeed left to themselves. But the irony is, as is so typical in this self-centered age, it is they who at times claim to be put upon and who judge their more fecund sisters so harshly. They say it’s all about “choice” and their’s is to be respected. All folks like us say is fair enough, respect our’s.
Texas Mom 2010| 9.30.10 @ 3:41PM
Great post, kudos to your family. We live in one of the areas you describe. It was a struggle to keep the rank materialism at bay. We only have two (completely due to my physical issues with my legs) so we have disposable income. But I have had to show my younger son the difference in price between the mall and driving a couple hundred miles to the outlet mall. He wants to go every year now, he got 10 outfits for the price of 3! The older son when asked what he wanted for his 18th bday said either a computer or the dark knight DVD. He knows the difference in cost, he needed the computer but he would have been happy with the DVD. They have always had to share their stuff. I did that by matching their money for a new game if they agreed to share. They soon realized that they had more stuff than if they bought their own. They have always saved together to buy stuff since.
Holy Crap| 9.30.10 @ 3:44PM
Jeez, do you ever shut up? It took me two minutes to scroll past your seemingly endless tripe.
Mark Shepler- Jupiter, FL| 9.30.10 @ 3:51PM
Nope. But it did end, no? And to cowards who post like you anonymously I say let go of your johnson and you can scroll faster.
Steve A| 9.30.10 @ 3:53PM
MS, Nice retort. You buys are cracking me up. Need the laughs. keep it coming.
Steve A| 9.30.10 @ 3:52PM
HC, That was funny.
HC| 9.30.10 @ 4:21PM
Thx, Steve. Seems that Mark is a little thin skinned, eh? I was afraid I would get a 200 paragraph retort from him. At least he kept it short, kinda like.......oh, don't go there!
Some people just can't take a little light humor.
Mark Shepler- Jupiter, FL| 9.30.10 @ 4:29PM
Nah, HC, I'm not thin skinned at all.
Did I not announce, some would say "warn" of my intention to "pontificate" at the get go? :) How could anyone possibly post all that and be thin skinned? I been playing on BBS sites since around '87. You'll have to do worse than that to get me really riled.
But I still say if yer gonna talk smack to a guy anonymously, ESPECIALLY if you're really just "joking", then yer a coward! :)
HC| 9.30.10 @ 4:59PM
Posting anon may be cowardly to you, I consider it essential in this day and age.
For example, with a 30 sec search I found your home address on 123rd Ter N, your wife Cathy's name, and an invitation from the website to check your background. I consider that a danger to have that much personal info so easily accessed. So for that reason alone I would never post my real name and location. An islamist or radical feminist might try to seek me out, and not in a good way. Caution is not cowardice, just caution.
Unless you feel better calling me a coward. That's OK. I have a sense of humor, and I'll just get back to my Mad Magazine now.
Mark Shepler- Jupiter, FL| 9.30.10 @ 5:19PM
Whatza matter, HC, a little thin-skinned are we? Geez, I thought we wuz just jokin' around here. Garsh. I even put in the :) used nowadays to denote humorous intent.
Yeah, I know all that, seen it myself. But you know what HC, if someone wants to do you wrong they will and they'll find you out, too. Maybe not from a post here but from some other source. I don't imagine you really think you're so safe. None are any more.
My point is, friend (can we be that now, since I'd bet we probably agree on about 99% of stuff), that if one posts anonymously and isn't trying to deliberately offend he should be especially circumspect. May I respectfully suggest the use of the aforementioned "smiley" :) . I know it seems bush league to old timers but it really does work.
And if you entertain any notions of visiting Jupiter, FL. Come on down!
But HC, come armed. :)
HC| 9.30.10 @ 5:29PM
Thanks for the friendly invite, I gotta pass on the visit because it is on the opposite end of the country from me - OH NO - I just gave my general location away. Now I gotta watch for those islamists and feminists...
I AM an old timer, and using the little symbols never occurs to me. Sometimes humor comes through, sometimes the words don't appear as the intended satire. Probably should have said diatribe not tripe. That reads funnier. In fact we are more than likely in agreement on 99%, I haven't read previous posts from you. I'll keep an eye out after I find my bifocals..
MS- Somewhere in the SE| 9.30.10 @ 5:44PM
OK, I'll go for diatribe. That's more my style for sure, I'll admit.
I am constantly amazed at how often I forget how things read in email and send what I think is funny but is read as anything but.
And I'm really not that sensitive. My long, rambling posts are really the accumulated thoughts of years on a subject. Like any frustrated writer I just like to get 'em down on paper, as it were, and up in lights however ephemeral and then sit back and watch to see if they make sense to others at all. :)
Been on with Rush nine times over the years and as he says, a caller's purpose is "to make the host look good", meaning one is either making sense and thus a good conversation mate or raving and an easy foil for Rush to parry. Making sense or raving, either way he looks good. Unfortunately for this caller, and would-be writer, I'm never sure which it is. :)
HC| 9.30.10 @ 6:34PM
On Rush 9 times! Snerdley must recognize your voice after that many. I've tried many times but never got past the busy signal. I've been on Gordon Liddy a couple times, and Michael Reagan 3 (10 yrs ago). But not the godfather. Or Beck.
MS| 9.30.10 @ 6:57PM
"Mark from Jupiter, FL", of course. At your service. Thought your extended silence was your verdict and it meant "raving!". :)
Last time was a couple of years ago. Best time was just days before the '94 election when the topic, as always with us Atila the Hun conservatives, was should we support less than ideologically pure Republicans. We spoke at length and agreed on the need to vote, just as we do now, for Conservatives in particular and Reps in general to effect, as I said, "a general change in attitude across the board at all levels". Great time.
Don't know that I hold that same exact position today but it's a different day. Thankfully, the Tea Party has forced the issue and presented more kindred alternatives we didn't have then. Moderates Reps are on the run.
Regards.
PJ| 9.30.10 @ 3:59PM
Mark,
I can't agree more. I have found that those women (& male counterparts) you described are spiritually unfulfilled.
Jim| 9.30.10 @ 8:50PM
As Beavis said: "Words... words... words..."
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:17AM
...and apparently you can't read them any better than Beavis does.
drgene| 9.30.10 @ 3:07PM
Isn't all of this lamentation for yuppie spinsters
missing the real question:
Isn't America, like Europe, in imminent danger
of being re-conquered by the hordes of breeder-
women--married or not? How is that helpful to
the evolutionary ideal of passing on the higher
genes, not the LCD ones?
The US ought imitate PRC:one child limit for urban, two if agricultural. Plus, we need to
rescind or amend the 14th amendment so that
the location of the uterus at birth is NOT
definitive of citizenship!
These yuppies spinsters were merely being responsible, and/or, dumb feminists fearful
of men--hiding behind declarations of "I can do it all--by myself." BTW these ladies can go the route
of AI & IVF if they wish; and abort if they change their mind.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:20AM
Your post about looming demographic nightmares might make more sense, if you'd instead called for the opposite of what China has - a REQUIREMENT that all American women knock out at least two offspring. That's the minimum required to prevent shrinkage among the native-born population.
The hyperfeminists, the gay activists, the militant atheists...these will be but a memory in a few generations. If radical Islam does not put them all to death, they will die-out on their own.
Kell Brigan| 9.30.10 @ 3:19PM
And, once again, women are blaimed for men being abusive, unrealiable, exploitative jerks. Can't get married if there's no one safe to marry.
Patriot| 9.30.10 @ 9:52PM
Blame is pointless--it merely divides us further.
Sorry you're hurting, Kell.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:21AM
Stop looking for quality men in singles bars, first off. Ever hear of this place called "church?"
Kell Brigan| 9.30.10 @ 3:23PM
"Their hopes for romance are more frequently dashed, especially since the young men are competing with men older and more advanced in their careers while the 40+ women are competing with younger, better looking women."
Case in ever lovin' point.
male=money
female=this week's definition of "better looking"
WHY ON EARTH WOULD ANYBODY WANT ANYTHING TO DO WITH JACK THE JACK***??? IF YOU WANT WOMEN TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS, HEAL THE SICKNESSES RAMPANT IN AMERICAN "MASCULINITY"
tonypal| 9.30.10 @ 3:51PM
Kell, I know this might be hard to understand, but most women actually like men who act like men. Most women like men who are masculine, who give them a sense of security, and I'm not just talking financial security. They want men who are gentlemen and treat them like ladies.
Sadly, far too many women have fallen for the feminist myth that you can have it all. A common sense, general rule of thumb that you learn at some point in your life is that when you demand everything, you usually end up with nothing. Too bad it takes a lifetime for some women to figure this out.
Now there's absolutely nothing wrong with choosing to establish yourself in your career; more power to you. But that comes at a cost. To fully grasp the cost, try reading one of Maureen Dowd's endless columns on why she can't find a man. It's usually full of gross distortions on what it means to be a man and why she can't land a guy that fits her description of the ideal man. She's a sad, pathetic excuse for a woman and she'll be unhappy until the day she dies, still whining about why she can't find a man.
The true "sickness" as you put it is not with men. Sure, there are plenty of mutants out there; one of them served 2 terms as president in the 90's. Most men, including myself, love the women in our lives and treat them with the respect they deserve. It's with women who simply refuse to accept the proper roles of men and women. Now before you get your panties in a knot, I'm not talking about women being barefoot and pregnant. I'm simply talking about the fact that men left to their own devices are rough and tough. Notice how young boys play with other boys as opposed to when they play with girls. If you have brothers and sisters, think back to the way it was growing up. Women have a calming effect on men and almost unconciously instruct young men how to be gentlemen.
I don't know your situation, but if you fit the description in the article, the problem might be closer to you than you're willing to accept. You complain about women being blamed for the acts of abusive men, yet seemingly blame men for not wanting to be with certain types of women. Well, maybe the reason is that certain types of women are looking for something that doesn't exist, a man who is male on the outside and female on the inside. Actually those men do exist; we call them sissies. Stop looking for sissies and try to find a real man, someone who is masculine and tough and knows how to treat a woman. There's far more of us out there than you can ever imagine. All you need to do is open your mind and your eyes.
just-a-guy| 10.1.10 @ 12:18AM
Your quote from a larger piece earlier in this thread also noted how guys in their 20's were at a disadvantage competing for the attention (love?) of fellow 20 yr old women who were attracted by the security/accomplishments of men in their 40's; the point was a tragic swap of decades and motivations, not to blame one gender over another.
...that was your play.
Your line: "IF YOU WANT WOMEN TO GET MARRIED AND HAVE KIDS, HEAL THE SICKNESSES RAMPANT IN AMERICAN "MASCULINITY""
Odd, it seems that if one wanted women to get married and have kids, you would impress upon them to do exactly that (vs. judge them on whether or not they get an MBA). Look, we know women can get MBAs and Doctorates (see: http://www.washingtonpost.com/.....06555.html) just ask yourself what you want to do with your life.
There's a funny akward line from "Ahnolds" movie, Kindergarten Cop, where the son of an OB/GYN states "boys have penises and girls have vagainas" - it's a line worth remembering at times. You take the good with the bad. The very same "outie" that makes my gender the 'fit' into your gender's "innie" may also be an outward parallel to some differences in wiring amongst the two genders. (if we're different "down there" why can't we be different "between the ears?")
Not all, and there are exceptions that prove the rule, but big-number-theory, think of the average. so this very same difference that creates the genders may, shockingly, be causal in driving differing motivations (men want fertile which we may equate to curviness you know, the whole mammary things us mamals are accustomed to, and maybe there's an archetypal Jungian draw to 'birthing hips' who knows, ask the folks a UT Austin: http://www.dailytexanonline.co.....ely-ladies) And women (wait for it...) want a provider (!!) - back in the days of Wolly Mammoths' maybe that was "the size of your spear", ahem, and now it may be more about financial and practical traits (i can honestly say, when women friends of my wife find out how much I renovated of our last house and what i'm doing on this one, not one, not one has said: "oh my gawd, that is such a turn off"), but it may come back to providing security to the potential offspring.
And to say this supposed sickness is "American" vs. something possibly ingrained in our species and crosses country boundries (have you seen what italian men do at the cafes? they're not staring at the vespas, they're looking at the GAMS on the vespas, trust me). to say this is an American Illness, I feel betrays you. But thanks for tipping us off! Back to being a husband and father, working a night shift and gotta fix the sink and other useless Masculine stuff I do.
(ps, I married a strong woman, a bright and beautiful woman that happens to be an attorney. On our second date she said to me: "I want kids, and when I do have kids, I'm quitting, just laying that out on the table". I picked up my glass and toasted: "to clarity and knowing what you want" that was 10 years ago, and 3 amazing kids later we're still raising our glasses)
Elizabeth| 10.1.10 @ 12:50AM
Good for you! Keep raising those glasses to one another.
CaroJ| 10.1.10 @ 8:35PM
I don't know how "beautiful" your wife is, but she certainly isn't too "bright" if she gave up her career to have kids! Or did she... you said she "happens to be an attorney." That doesn't seem to be past tense.
CaroJ| 10.1.10 @ 8:39PM
Also, any man who thinks that the personification of manhood is to objectify women is the kind of man no "bright" woman could possibly want.
Elizabeth| 10.2.10 @ 1:47AM
CaroJ, please go back to HuffPo where you belong. Your silly canards are really nauseating me.
Better yet, go take a kick-boxing class so you won't be so ticked off.
CaroJ| 10.2.10 @ 11:16AM
That's your own stench that is nauseating you, Edward.... err "Elizabeth."
Aaron| 10.2.10 @ 1:58PM
CaroJ, you keep wanting to call Elizabeth "Edward", because you can't believe that a woman could think like she does. You obviously are a man-hater. Are you a lesbian? You obviously believe the lie that the world's evils originate in male supremacy. I do understand why women like you hate men. There are so many selfish, effeminate, metrosexual, gutless pussies out there to be sure. There are also some good men. Too bad you never met one, and with your attitude, YOU NEVER WILL. Good men don't marry your kind. Sorry. Go watch the Ellen DeGenerate show.
Jaxebast| 10.2.10 @ 4:03PM
Aaron,
You are speaking words of evil that could lead to the loss of your eternal soul.
Repent.
Aaron| 10.2.10 @ 9:24PM
Jaxebast,
You're right. I repent. In the future I won't say "gutless pussy". I'll say "pusillanimous" - lacking courage or resolution. Also, I won't call Ellen DeGeneres "DeGenerate". What do you think? Should I clean up some other expressions?
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:26AM
Jax,
Woe to you who call good evil, and evil, good. Aaron knows what he's talking about. You don't.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:25AM
Maybe you should take Elizabeth's advice and piss off. I'm sick of you, too.
just-a-guy| 10.3.10 @ 12:43PM
Funny, I was responding to someone who was putting the blame for the lack of kids at (american) masculinity's doorstep, and linking to some 3rd party material that suggests both genders may have ingrained predispositions, and now i'm objectifying? (by definition, studies objectify their subjects, so gee, you got them). But - that's a loaded word to your kind, so i take it you don't like me. sigh, i feel so, so... hungry, actually. But i'll make a sandwich in a minute.
re: not liking me: I don't think it is solely because i'm handy, rather, it is because you don't like my wife's kind. You know, those who "had it all" (a K St. firm in DC, top law school) and chose, clearly, instead to focus on being a full-time mom vs. being partially good at both, thereby acting in a "traditional" role, even if ephemerally for a specific stage of her life. (and don't try to tell me you can do both at the same time at the same level of excellence, save it). We see the flamewars on the mom forums, the only thing that gets the ladies in a fighting mood more than the breastfeeding threads are the "stay at home mom" vs. "career mom + daycare". The latter group always seem to insist, to the bitter end, that they are *sure* their kids are better off thanks to daycare and many strangers taking care of their kids ("i mean, think of how strong his immune system will be thanks to the 8 cases of pinkeye at the daycare!"). Umm, fine. You have made your choices, not what we would choose (and didn't), but give it a rest if we chose different. To attempt to insult her intelligence because she doesn't happen to agree with your life choices is, well, sad.
And what's even more sad is, when it suits her, she'll go back to work (she's still in demand and does phone consult favors thanks to her specialization), so she'll go back to work when she wants, and our kids will be on their way to being well formed adults, cherishing the many memories and lessons their mom has provided.
Contrast that with the gist of the "OriginalPoster" (this article): look at what happens when women do what you are espousing ("but she certainly isn't too bright if she gave up a career to have kids!") specifically: don't quit, don't have kids, keep working! Only an idiot would do different! So if/when my wife is back to work, and we have our family, and she is once again practicing, you and your kind may be looking back and questioning your decision, sadly at that point many in your camp won't have a choice, as their biological clocks will have expired. Ironic. At least they'll be able to discuss it, rationalize it, and insult loving, bright, and beautiful women like my wife, they with their fellow "enlightend" childless friends and their many cats.
I thought women's lib was about freedom of choice? No, it seems it's about making the choices *you* endorse.
Steve A| 9.30.10 @ 3:23PM
Wow Kell. Very insightful. Hey, good news for you. Al Gore now on the street & availible. Go get in line.
tonypal| 9.30.10 @ 3:54PM
I think your response was better than mine. Less time consuming too.
duck| 9.30.10 @ 4:00PM
@Steve A
You are correct....as with most things, follow the money.
Back in a past life, I found this out very quickly. Before the government closed my business, I was a coachbuilder, a person that formed metal into custom built automobile bodies. I usually drove a truck because it was needed for my business. After meeting what was presumably a nice female, as soon as they saw that I was driving a pickup, and after insulting me with various derogatory epithets, they would turn and hightail it away. But, at times, the same female, when driving one of the handcrafted vehicles would go out of their way to attempt to talk to me. When I pointed out to them that we had met before and their actions during that previous meeting, their obstinate reaction was immediately rekindled, much to my amusement.
I have been married for quite some time now and to a real woman who cares not for what I drive or how much I am worth, just for who I am.
InLineFour| 10.1.10 @ 1:00AM
Ditto, Duck.
I earn six figures as a construction mgr, and the job requirements put me in jeans and work boots most every day. At the end of the day, shopping at a hoity-toity grocery store (because they stock a great variety of the spicy ethnic stuff my tastebuds crave), when I pass attractive women walking up the isles I notice they avoid eye contact with me. But at the same store on Sundays, when rather than steel-toe boots, I'm wearing suit and tie from church services that morning, the women make eye contact and often give me a smile.
Glad you found one of the good ones.
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 1:59PM
Wow, I love men who look like men--most REAL women do, too.
duck| 10.1.10 @ 6:23PM
@InLineFour
I know what you mean. I had a female customer come in my shop saying that she would like to talk to someone about a vehicle. Since I do a lot of work myself, I was dressed in Levis and a sweat shirt. I told her that I could help her. She retorted that she wanted to speak tp someone important. Again, I said I could help her. This went back and forth a few more times and I finally pointed her towards the office door and told her the owner would be with you in a moment. She muttered some haughty huuumph sound and headed towards the office. I ran around the back way and was setting behind my desk when she walked in. I then told her that I didn't want her business and handed her a card from another coachbuilder suggesting that he might satisfy her needs. I called him up after she left and warned him that she might be by. He called me a couple of days later and said she was a real witch and he didn't want to have anything to do with her. I heard later that she ended up at Barris's Custom shop and he did the job for her and lost money on the deal. It was comical.....
Elizabeth| 10.2.10 @ 1:44AM
Don't you guys EVER meet any good women who are really nice? Geez!
Where do you live because I don't want to go there.
duck| 10.2.10 @ 10:38AM
That's great...stay where you are, it will save a lot of good men from having to put up with another female impersonator.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:29AM
Easy, duck. I think Eliz simply wants to know why you decent-sounding guys always seem to run into the witches and hags. I don't think she meant to be insulting.
sgtrock44| 9.30.10 @ 4:09PM
That's what watching "Sex and the City" will get you. Liberalism always fails. It fails in running a country and in your social life. I have no pity for those self-assorbed women who "shack-up" with men who then use them for sex toys. I've been married 20 years to my 1st wife and have worked through many difficulties as a husband and father. I was smart enought to marry a God-fearing conservative woman. I hope my son's stay away from liberal girls who are self-absorbed!!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:30AM
My woman is God-fearing and I've just about finished chasing the liberal out of her. She admitted to me a few years back that she's moved quite a way to the right, because I can articulate why the right's philosophy is far superior.
another view point| 9.30.10 @ 4:37PM
Hmmm, I know alot of average in looks girls that never got asked out much for dates because the model types were getting the majority of the attention. These girls were perfect for great wives and moms . . . so, what did they do? Well, they focused on their careers . . . got to have a roof over your head and food in the fridge somehow. Also, as many were children of divorce, they realized that marriage was no guarantee of financial security and it would be prudent to be self-sufficient should the divorce fairy show up.
Some were fortunate enough to meet men who could get past them being average in looks and went on to get married and have children, the rest of them are still waiting . . .
I was fortunate enough to meet a fellow geek and am happily married. Some of my friends were not so fortunate.
And yes, I realize ordinary looking guys have experienced the same kind of situation.
Just saying . . .
duck| 9.30.10 @ 5:58PM
@another view point
"And yes, I realize ordinary looking guys have experienced the same kind of situation."
How gracious of you but there is a difference. An ordinary guy can bust his tail and get nowhere with the average female. Then he quits trying and concentrates on a career, makes something of himself and many times the very females that shunned him will begin seeking him out. Whereas, the successful female will usually lord it over the male and never let him forget that she can do very well without any male. I have a daughter that has gone that route and she is of the age where she is starting to 'feel' alone but without her realizing it, she is not going to be anyone's mate. Her independent attitude drives everyone away and she can't or won't understand what she is doing.
Females generally want the male to bend to their way and it takes a special woman to allow a male to be themselves.
I have always wondered what kind of logic a female uses when she says she loves some guy and as soon as they are tied together, she immediately sets out to remold him in her image. The only conclusion is that she never loved him for what he is but loved what she felt she could make him into. Most guys I know had to give up his life when they got married and live the life of their female mates or suffer the consequences of being financially destroyed.
Elizabeth| 9.30.10 @ 9:55PM
Cry me a river! Grow up and stop blaming women, take responsibility for your own life.
You men aren't perfect either.
duck| 10.1.10 @ 1:33AM
Your reaction has proved my point.
Elizabeth| 10.1.10 @ 1:28PM
Exactly. I told you to take responsibility for your own life and you objected. Whiny men like you are the worst--even worse than loathsome feminazi ball-busters.
You're supposed to be MEN for pete's sake. Act like it.
duck| 10.1.10 @ 3:03PM
You sound like the typical closet male hater that expects all males to set back and take the crap that you "loathsome feminazi ball-busters" dish out. You want the world to be a one way street for your kind......
Elizabeth| 10.1.10 @ 4:05PM
Why so full of hate and rage?
I love and respect the men in my life-- there's nothing 'closet' about me, but I don't respect weak men like you. Someone sure did a number on you.
I feel very sorry for you.
duck| 10.1.10 @ 6:03PM
You are partly correct. I was married twice. First wife married me for money. And she was a controlling bitch that didn't get very far with me. She then ran off with someone that she thought had money, married him without divorcing me. She then found out that her new squeeze's money belonged to the guy's father and she tried to come running back to me and I told her to get lost. She then tried to sue me until I told her and her lawyer that would mean that she would spend a good deal of time behind bars for bigamy. I haven't heard from her since.
The rest is from observations like my ex's sister who in ten years has been married four times. The last time I saw her, she was worth a little over 2 1/2 million dollars, all taken from ex-husbands plus a couple of houses. She floated a $250,000.00 second mortgage on a third home that she took from the last husband and walked away letting the bank hanging .
Some of the guys that have worked for me can't even choose their own clothes, drive the kind of car, etc, etc, without getting their wives permission. They can forget about any special interest or hobbies. Their wives won't allow it. These women hold the divorce laws over the men's heads as leverage to get their way 100%. I have witnessed some of these females coming to my place of business and verbally threaten the guys with divorce if they don't do whatever the female wants. Some of the guys have said the hell with things and went for the divorce, the the same women bitch how horrible and un-supporting her ex-husband was. One even came back a year after their divorce and physically attacked her ex-husband. He took it for some time and after started drawing blood, he pushed her back away from him. She called the police and he was the one arrested for abusing her.
I have neighbors that fight like cats and dogs and judging by what can be heard from them shouting, the wife is no bargain.
As far as me being 'whiny', I was relating observations that i have personally witnessed and it really doesn't matter what you think. As long as the people that I love care for me, and they do, that's all I need.
Elizabeth| 10.2.10 @ 1:41AM
You sound like a sweet guy, I'm sorry for your tough times. You're not alone, you know--no one gets a free-ride here on earth, including me. I just wouldn't let a couple of very crappy guys make me bitter toward all men.
Why take my heartbreak out on good men like you? That's not fair.
You're right, though--the only thing that really matters is the love of a good family and friends. I'm glad you've found happiness in your life.
truth in advertising| 10.1.10 @ 12:11PM
Water takes the shape of its container. When a husband leads, the wife will gladly follow. If the man is a wuss, the woman feels the need to take charge. And then the wuss complains about the woman being pushy.
Elizabeth| 10.1.10 @ 1:29PM
It's true. I don't know who repels me more--feminazis or whiny men. Ugh!
PolishKnight| 10.1.10 @ 6:23PM
Elizabeth, to paraphrase what you said above, you aren't perfect either.
This may amaze you to hear, but (some) of us men don't fret about impressing you. If you find me repellent, I could care less. For one thing, men don't really attract women. We ask YOU out, remember?
If you don't like whiny men, be careful what you wish for because you might get it. If women don't like brutish men who denied women equality for centuries, then why do they call men who bother to communicate with them as whiners?
If you are ok with us men banging you over the head and dragging you into the cave, then good for you. Otherwise, you're the whiny nagger whose going to be miserable no matter what.
Elizabeth| 10.2.10 @ 1:26AM
You miss my point, PK. I don't find you or men in general repellent, I find your attitude repellent!
I know I'm not perfect, I never said I was; I just don't think it's honorable of us, male or female, to blame our shortcomings on one another.
I love men, good men that is--not whiny or brutish men. Isn't there a happy medium in there somewhere?
I've always tried to be a decent person and a good woman--not a nag and not a shrew; not all of us are your sworn enemy, you know. I've even heard that some of you guys kind of like us sometimes.
My life hasn't always been easy, I've had my share of tough times, too; but I still love beautiful music, babies' toothy smiles and fragrant flowers.
I still love my life fiercely and I refuse to see it as a misery.
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 1:15PM
Elizabeth, you don't have to take the criticism I level personally. For the record, I will say I have tons of shortcomings and accept the limitations of them. Otherwise, I couldn't function in society.
As I said above, it takes two to tango. You can't pull out the "whiner" label while ignoring the criticism we level towards the women's equality movement which was ALL ABOUT "whining" to chivalrous protectors. Outside of western chivalrous society, women's equality is a joke. Literally.
Let's put into perspective what so-called women's equality, via special privileges, continued chivalrous protections, and the welfare state, has achieved: Men still have to live up to breadwinner standards. Other than women being easier to shag outside of marriage, not much is different from men's perspective in a positive way.
But even for you women... it's not much better either. My grandfather had a stable job and his wife worked part-time. They vacationed a month out of the year. They owned a home OUTRIGHT. My father and mother could walk home from elementary school without worrying about being abducted. Does that sound so bad to you?
Now, feminists continue to gripe that, eek, they might have to pay for fertility clinics, sperm banks and daycare and that leaves almost no money left over for shopping trips. Tough. Noogies. Welcome to the world of men, sweetheart!
Brooke| 10.3.10 @ 7:31PM
Elizabeth's got a point. Be selective, Polish Knight; not all woman are bad.
Sometimes your posts paint all of us with a broad brush. It's hurtful
Think about it.
CaroJ| 10.1.10 @ 8:43PM
The only women who "gladly follow" are those with very poor self-esteem. A marriage is an equal partnership if it is to have any value at all.
truth in advertising| 10.1.10 @ 9:40PM
Not true at all, and you'd have to be a Christian woman to understand and agree with the way that God set Marriage up.
Christian husbands show honor to the weaker sex, and the Christian wife responds in kind. And the wife is a reflection of the husband. A right man inspires a wife to be loving in return. The Bible says that woman was made for man, not man for woman.
" Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him." Gen. 2:18.
God had a plan. Man messed it up. That's why relationships don't work. When we do things His way, they do.
Autumn| 10.2.10 @ 2:26AM
CaroJ doesn't have a clue, a lot of women don't.
It's too bad.
CaroJ| 10.2.10 @ 11:22AM
Or maybe you're just brainwashed. You'd have to be to think that wives are a reflection of their husbands. As for the "right man inspiring a wife to be loving in return" so, women aren't capable of loving on their own? You obviously have no understanding of human relationships.
Go back to your life of slavery and continue telling yourself that you're superior to the rest of the world. Kind of a glaring contradiction, one would think.
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 1:17PM
CaroJ, if anything, chivalrous men are a reflection of their wife and children. They work long hours to support them and if a spouse takes time off, it probably won't be him. Even before they have a relationship or a spouse, the men put in time to date and build a career with that in mind.
And that's precisely why so many of these seemingly great catch 40 year old women are alone. It may seem that they did things just like a similarly situated man, but it's men who hit the road, so to speak, to find a mate, to pay for dates, and to build relationships from the start.
Women's equality only works when chivalrous build build everything and then hand half of it over.
Marco| 10.3.10 @ 7:32PM
CaroJ is probably fat, forty and forgotten. Poor slob.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:32AM
Feh. I'm a decent-looking dude, and it seems like even the Plain Jane's were "too busy" to date me back in college. The models...feh, I didn't even go there.
Before some hag shows up and says that's because clearly no woman would want me...be advised that I've been with my gal for eight years now.
Marco| 10.3.10 @ 7:33PM
I'm glad for you, Cylar--be glad for yourself, too.
The past is over and you seem to dwell on it. Why?
Celebrate!
Ray Kremer| 9.30.10 @ 4:56PM
See also: the opening minutes of the movie Idiocracy.
Jim| 9.30.10 @ 8:47PM
Ray, you get extra credit for referring to one great movie.
Handy| 9.30.10 @ 6:08PM
Women constantly overrate themselves. They are not exceptional in any field, except as homemakers. Sure, they can be adeqauate in many occupations, but they are never going to be great outside the house. They can legally be soldiers and pilots, but they will never be excellent at either. They won't work in the difficult stuff of maintaining sewers, but they can be good diaper changers.
And, here's the point: They were sold a bill of goods. Girls, you simply aren't that great. Not even as accountants.
In the workplace men are confronted with incompetent gals all the time. When you see a postal clerk who can't process a simple certified letter to the girl at Target who doesn't even know where the AAA batteries are. Yet, everytime a circuit is broken because you created an overload, or you plugged up your toilet, it is a guy who comes to your rescue.
There really is no upside to American Women. (Wasn't there a song to that effect?) And, even if you find one you can sorta tolerate, is there any point in procreating? America is done, and would any real man want his legacy to be Socialism for your kids?
If women had no right to vote, we wouldn't be in this mess. Repeal the 19th Amendment.
Until then ladies, learn to cook and clean and make love. Those are all the skills that you can possibly excel at. And, the only ones any real man will cherish you for.
Take your feminism, and stuff it. Or, at least stop bitching about it.
Holy Crap| 9.30.10 @ 7:43PM
After reading your post, I assume your posting name "Handy" describes your solo sex life too?
Handy| 9.30.10 @ 7:54PM
Feed their need, you pansy
HC| 9.30.10 @ 9:30PM
Ooo, that stung. Hey there lonely boy.....
Elizabeth| 9.30.10 @ 9:58PM
LOL! That was really funny, HC. Lots of bitter people here.
Kind of sad, actually.
golem| 10.1.10 @ 3:20AM
You're at the head of that parade, Elizabeth.
Elizabeth| 10.1.10 @ 1:34PM
Sorry to burst your bubble, precious, but I'm happily married to a terrific guy and we have 4 great kids.
Looks like you're projecting your own bitterness. Sorry.
PolishKnight| 10.1.10 @ 6:25PM
Elizabeth, politics is about bitterness. If people were all happy and content and felt nothing needing fixing, this website wouldn't be here.
No vote the way your husband tells you to and get us a beer. That's not a whine. It's an order.
And I'm happy to give it!
Elizabeth| 10.2.10 @ 1:06AM
Maybe, Polish Knight, but life is about joy and I intend to live mine with love, kindness and good cheer. I'll be damned if I'll blame my shortcomings on others, though--there's no honor in it.
My husband and I are both Conservatives, so politics is not a conflict between us.
And, yes, I just might get you that beer--if you ask nicely. ;)
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 1:25PM
Elizabeth, I ask for everything nicely otherwise why bother?
And that leads up to an interesting observation: Men often can't just 'ask' for things. We either have to earn them, or take them. Most of us can't just "ask" women to be our wives and do things for us. We have to do some ugly things to be in that position. The world of men is an ugly, nasty place sometimes. I just got off of a call from work and I'm dealing with a jerk recently. I can't "whine" about it since I know whining won't get me anywhere. That's the real world.
And women wanted "equality" with men but thought of men's world based upon alpha males with nobel prizes or world leaders thinking that was what they were getting. When it turned out that work isn't all fun, instead of living up to the same responsibilities as us men they weaseled or just became bitter themselves. Now we have a society where men and women are at each other's throats and when us men say "Hey, how about us?" we hear "shut up!"
OK. Fine. We're used to that. Message received. I'm not bothering to ask nicely anymore. I don't bargain with women like that. I know it's a waste of time.
And I moved on.
Elizabeth| 10.3.10 @ 7:41PM
We're on the same side, Polish Knight; you never understood that. Pity.
You don't see that YOU are one of those "at each other's throats." You don't see your contribution to the anger and bitterness at all.
Life's not easy for women, either; walk in our shoes sometime and you might understand.
Good luck to you and yours. I hope you find peace. After a lot of prayer and introspection, I finally have.
AlanC| 9.30.10 @ 8:56PM
I respond to Handy.
1) I admit that there is a seed of truth in your paragraph related to the women right to vote. While they got the right to vote in mid 1910s, it is clear that the effort of government to be more "compassionate" with other people's money just increased.
It is true that women are very risk adverse and for them many socialist programs like "insurance", welfare, SS seem great (reduce risk, but also reduce economic growth and incentives to work).
However, I wouldn't be as harsh about women in general. They are very smart in day to day activities. What I want to point to is that the reason why they are paid less is because they have a different preference structure. They would rather go home, see the kids, or hang out than put up more hours.
Also, women don't get along well with each other. My wife hates dealing with women in any situation. These two factors put together explain why there aren't so many women in management and why they earn more.
The third factor (and why Larry Summers got in hot water while at Harvard) is that women have no interest in science. They really don't. And it all has to do with the sexual structure. Men need to compete to get the best women. Women just have to be pretty, healthy and say yes or no.
Women are interested in a stable stream of income (from a job, government or ex-husband-either one).
CaroJ| 10.1.10 @ 8:46PM
You're almost as full of hate for women as Handy is.
Nobama| 10.2.10 @ 2:29AM
You're not so full of sweetness and light yourself, babe.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:40AM
Handy probably just hates pissy little harpies like you, Carol. Didn't Elizabeth tell you to get your ass back to HuffPo? Take her advice and GET LOST!
Jesse Jackson| 10.2.10 @ 10:26PM
AlanC, At the risk of sounding sexist and racist, let me say that the country has been screwed up since we gave women and blacks the right to vote. I can just hear the uproar that comment is going to cause. Think about. Many women (not all) voted for Bill Clinton because they thought he was cute and played the saxophone. He won. Twice. Even though he is the enemy of women, not to mention is poor wife. Blacks vote Democrat because they believe that the Democratic party looks out for them and nothing could be further from the truth. Without the women's vote and the black vote (and they're hoping for the Hispanic vote) the Democratic party wouldn't exist. There are a lot of brilliant women out there - Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Mona Charen, Liz Peek, Linda Chavez, etc. and guess what? They're all conservatives.
Gloria Steinem| 9.30.10 @ 9:37PM
Most people are afraid to hear the truth. Feminism has been the cause for our decline. You can't turn your most productive citizens - men-into second class citizens and massively subsidize women's presence in the work force with ever dwindling tax dollars earned from mens' labor and expect success. Preach it brother.
Patriot| 9.30.10 @ 10:00PM
You make it sound like life's a bowl of cherries for women--it's not!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:39AM
Even Ann Coulter thinks that women's suffrage has caused a lot of our problems, and I know of few women more independent and outspoken than she is. (Precisely why the Left turned on her; she achieved everything feminism claims to want but didn't adopt their dopey philosophy along the way.) Sarah Palin, same deal.
JL| 9.30.10 @ 6:57PM
I was Appleby until, by the blessings of God, I met my husband. I was almost 50, and thought it was too late for me, and thought he was too good to be true. It wasn't, and he isn't. Despite the ups and downs of the last 10 years, I'm so grateful and blessed to finally have met my mate, the one God meant for me in the beginning.
I am satisfied and happy with what I have, and wouldn't trade it and him for anything.
Handy| 9.30.10 @ 7:34PM
Apple just hates men. And reality,
Jeremiah| 9.30.10 @ 10:02PM
Apple doesn't hate men, but I think you hate women. At least she doesn't whine.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:44AM
Handy doesn't hate women, at least that's not what I get from his comments. He hates incompetent, shrill, annoying, hypocritical women. As do I.
Gloria| 10.3.10 @ 7:43PM
Could have fooled me. There's a lot of women-bashing going on here. Real men don't bash women.
ron| 10.1.10 @ 12:23AM
I like this , you never know what is in store and now and then you are surprised on the upside.
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 12:53AM
Yes, it's good to have an adventurous spirit in this life, isn't it?
ron| 10.1.10 @ 10:28AM
My favorite among the 10 commandments is the "thou shalt not covet..". It is not ours to inordinately desire the life or things of others, but we are called to accept our lives as gifts from God and thus something of great value. Each day is an opportunity for renewal. Be happy for those who are happy , mourn with those who mourn.
I heard the Dalai Lama , when asked if he wished he was married say some single people tell him they wish they were married, and some married people tell him they wish they were single so , he said, I guess I will be happy as I am.
Maybe it is more of an ideal but I think that is the spirit of the commandment as well. I am happy for JL and love that she was surprised. It is a good story.
skip| 10.1.10 @ 12:04PM
Notice how Obama constantly urges the the nation to covet? Tax break, but not for the 'rich'. The 'rich' don't pay their 'fair' share. In fact, the 10th commandment isn't the only one he urges Americans to defy.
ron | 10.1.10 @ 12:22PM
His use of envy for division is a first rule of the con. They draw you in with greed and you are the one they ultimately con.
The first proverb has a little on it.
11 If they say, "Come along with us;
let's lie in wait for someone's blood,
let's waylay some harmless soul;
12 let's swallow them alive, like the grave, [b]
and whole, like those who go down to the pit;
13 we will get all sorts of valuable things
and fill our houses with plunder;
14 throw in your lot with us,
and we will share a common purse"-
15 my son, do not go along with them,
do not set foot on their paths;
16 for their feet rush into sin,
they are swift to shed blood.
17 How useless to spread a net
in full view of all the birds!
18 These men lie in wait for their own blood;
they waylay only themselves!
19 Such is the end of all who go after ill-gotten gain;
it takes away the lives of those who get it.
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 1:56PM
Marxists like Obama always use class-warfare to divide and conquer. Unfortunately, it works.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:45AM
...it works on the sheep who are dumb enough to fall for it, like the afforementioned majority of black/female/other protected-class voters. Thankfully, even many of those are starting to figure out they're being duped and used.
Jim| 9.30.10 @ 8:45PM
Multiply the author's friends by 20 million or so, and you have the women of Italy, Spain, Germany, etc.
AlanC| 9.30.10 @ 8:47PM
Interesting article, which however doesn't touch on the causes of this situation.
And the causes are very simple: in the 60s, the governments tried its best in the western world to make sure than in the case of divorce, the woman does not go without any financial support. Also the legal system awards about 90% of kids to the mother, who also collects money from the ex-spouse.
It's a simple supply-demand game. Men, who talk to each other constantly, transmitted to each other that marriage is not worth it. And this way they can have sex, but no kids. I read somewhere that even if the couple is not married, the woman can get alimony if she has a kid.
From the male's perspective, the kid just got MUCH MUCH MUCH more expensive. Couple this with all the stupid rules, like you can't leave kids unattended before 12 and all the feminazi-run "social services" for brats in schools etc., and there you go.
This is how we got into this mess. I wonder if the Congress will wake up and make the playing field more level. It's interesting that while the law was originally intended to help women on the short term (which I am sure it did), it had disastrous consequences in the mid-long term.
B Bourne| 9.30.10 @ 8:51PM
Author: Please go back and re-write the article, but first interview those 2-dozen forty-something single women and find out how many abortions they've had...my guess is, there's your real story.
gail| 9.30.10 @ 9:01PM
At 58, I have a feeling I'm older than most of you commenting on this subject. While I am twice married ( 15 yrs and 20 yrs and going) with 1 "late in life" child at 41, who is no 17; I think the perspective may change as one ages. This life is really about two things: love and work. For many women of my generation, work was enough for a very long time. Marriages more expendable than careers. But after 55 a shift happens. How one defines "success" and "satisfaction" can change. Personally, I have no single, childless friends over 55 that don't wish they had a different outcome: a partner and a family of their own.
I don't judge anyone's choices; I just think one's values change as we age and mature.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:47AM
It is a shame that so many have to reach 55 before figuring this out. Maybe you can impart your accumulated wisdom to the trolls like CarolJ.
Willie| 9.30.10 @ 9:32PM
" are deeply afraid of marriage having grown up in an era when nearly half of all marriages end in divorce."
This is factually incorrect.
The number of divorces in a given year are about half of the number of new marriages in that year. There are about 50,000,000 existing marriages in addition to the new marriages/divorces. Divorce rate in 2008 was 3.5 per 1000.
jefCostello| 9.30.10 @ 9:36PM
Leftism run amok!
Susie| 9.30.10 @ 9:39PM
Why can't these spinsters adopt a child who is unwanted and uncared for? Either from this country or some third-world hell hole? That's what my mid - 40s, highly-educated and successful single spinster friends did.
teedub| 10.1.10 @ 8:45PM
I know it's a radical idea, but consider that many women in their 40's deliberately choose not to have kids. Therefore, why would they want to adopt them? Childless women in their 40's don't all have the same desires.
This is all about free choice. No one should be shamed, ridiculed, judged, or demeaned for choices they make in their own lives.
It's a free country....we all get to decide what's best for us.
Some women realize they are not cut out to be mothers and take steps to insure that. It's not a bad thing.
My question to you is: Why don't these people in loving marriages who extol the virtues of children adopt these already existing children instead of making more?
Women and men are individuals, not hive minds. We each know what's best for us and those decisions will not be uniform across genders. And that's not a bad thing.
Autumn| 10.2.10 @ 2:37AM
There really aren't that many adoptable children because of abortion and many barren couples do adopt.
There's nothing wrong with having children if you can take care of them.
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 9:07AM
Plenty of older children who age out of the system...just because they're older doesn't make them unadoptable. They'd love to have families.
teedub| 10.2.10 @ 2:41PM
Of course there is nothing wrong with having children if you can afford them. However that was not the topic I was responding to.
That being said, your comment holds absolutely no water. There are tens of thousands of children right here in the good ole USA that are available for adoption. Yet, somehow you come to the conclusion there aren't many adoptable children. Unbelievable!
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 7:46PM
You don't know what you're talking about, but liberals usually don't.
A lot of those children are ill or have been abused and are extraordinarily difficult to care for.
It's happened to some of my friends.
Have YOU stepped up to the plate? If not, why not?
Chuck| 9.30.10 @ 9:42PM
It really comes down to commitment and loyalty. Those that embrace their marriage and their children above their careers and distractions, find the middle ground. They earn the legacy that others don't, they fully understand it and know it's good when it is good. It is not always good though, it's work and it's tough and it comes back to commitment. First things first, there is nothing like a family loyal to each other.
John| 9.30.10 @ 9:51PM
I for one just want to say a hearty "Congratulations!" to these women. On your career and your house and your trendy car and your awesome shoe collection and your other cool cosmopolitan friends. And if, late at night, after the fab dinner party with the great wine in the magazine-house, you feel a pang, so what? So your alone. Big deal! You won! You've come a long way, Baby! Savor your independence. Your lonely, lonely independence. You've got everything money can buy. So stop whining that you didn't get the things money can't buy. You didn't earn those. Suckers.
Patriot| 9.30.10 @ 10:05PM
God bless Appleby, and God bless you, too, John.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:49AM
John yes, Appleby not so much.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 7:47PM
Shame on you for your unkindness. Appleby is a good woman.
Tony in Central PA| 9.30.10 @ 10:13PM
This is a very sad article. Maybe marriage isn't for everybody, but when people enter adulthood with negative or unrealistic ideas about marriage, family and kids, I suppose these kind of outcomes are often hard to avoid. Nobody gets to the end of their life and wishes they'd been loved by fewer people.
Rugged Individual| 9.30.10 @ 10:27PM
Unfortunately, most of us know too many people in denial about various things, especially the decision to remain single and/or not have children, and can't help but wonder if folks like Appleby aren't just trying to convince themselves or aren't going to have one of those all-to-common epiphanies which come to us too late in life.
It's fine to THINK we are happy, if only to induce happiness, but it's also fine to bet WITH the odds, as opposed to AGAINST them. People who marry and have children seldom end life regretting the experience, while far too many, the vast majority, of those who leave no such legacy express regret at not having done so.
People must live with their own choices and that's fine... Especially when those choices result in a form of "poetic justice" or spare someone suffering. But some of us care enough to question their choices just enough to make them consider those choices carefully. It's the KIND thing to do.
Brandon| 9.30.10 @ 10:44PM
meanwhile.... latinos, muslims, and africans continue their demographic jihad on the comparably small white civilizations by having more kids than they can feed forcing responsible folks to turn over more and more of their earnings through either direct taxation or goverment pandering (debt) to pay for their welfare needs.
its far past time to end most all immigration to western countries. think about this critically people. this is essentially white genocide enabled by open borders lefties. anyone notice japan doesnt allow much immigration? they are smart to protect their civilization.
whites have only about a 1.6 birthrate and latinos and muslims having multiples of that. its inevitable unless something changes in western countries. the USA will no longer exist as anything it was intended to be once we are overwhelmed in votes. folks that are immigrating believe in nanny state safety nets. this means confiscation of wealth, high taxes, lower standard of living, scarcity of jobs.
i am not a jew but this article speaks to some of the issue well.
If You Are Not a Leftist, Why Are You Voting Democrat?
http://jewishworldreview.com/0910/prager.php3
"A taxpayer voting for a lib [communist?], is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders."
Smeg| 9.30.10 @ 10:44PM
I'm like the author's friends, but am a male, mid 40s not married & no kids.
Do I ever regret it? Occasionally yes, but then I go to the office and listen to the stories (from men and women) about the stress, BS, nonsense and other unhappiness their family lives cause them, or the latest guy to get financially destroyed in a divorce, and when I go home that night knowing that no one will be there to be a pain in my backside, I smile and enjoy the peace.
CaroJ| 10.1.10 @ 8:50PM
But no one here is going to villify you for that because you're a man. They save up all their hatred for women who dare not to procreate! And who dare to be happy in spite of not "fulfilling" their only "true" purpose on earth! The horror!
Nobama| 10.2.10 @ 2:30AM
Please DON'T procreate! Give the kids a break!!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:52AM
The entire point, you self-absorbed snot...is that they're only pretending to be "happy."
Now for the last time, get the f--- out of here.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:51AM
Raising children isn't all runny noses, arms in slings, fights, chicken pox and loads of laundry. When my daughter smiles at me, it's all worth it.
Enjoy your "tranquility." You will die alone.
Downie| 9.30.10 @ 11:05PM
Perhaps because they didn't reproduce and selfishly bring more people into existence;
They are the successful ones and not the Mothers who carelessly brought forth more poor,
Ya Think?
Oldwiseman| 9.30.10 @ 11:19PM
My wife and I have been married for over thirty-five years. We sort of raised kids twice: our second son was born twelve years after our first boy. So we've been busy. Now let me get to the point. I wish to encourage all young men and women to consider marriage in light of this: once the kids are grown, you really do get to do your thing again! It's not exactly like being a young Paul Newman or Elizabeth Taylor once more, but it ain't that bad either. Of course you need money and be in somewhat decent health. It's quiet once more, with plenty of time to focus and plan, and we don't have to hire a sitter when we go out, or worry about fevers and kids getting lost or hurt, etc. We have the rest of our lives to party again! You think it would never end (the many jobs, the different schools, the family feuds, and all the rest) but it does. And I won't bull you; it's a bit lonely now, many of our friends and relatives have moved away, or passed away. And yes, we do feel a little worn out, but not like Night of the Living Dead either! We believe we have some good times left, hopefully a good fifteen to twenty years to make happen whatever it is we would like to happen. Some call it full circle. And so far, we think it was worth it. Now excuse me, I have to get some more coffee and finish listening to Get Down Tonight by K.C.! Oh yeah!
Cinderella| 10.1.10 @ 12:20PM
Love it, dude!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:53AM
I'm going to keep telling myself that during the difficult times of being a dad. Much needed encouragement, and thank you.
rr1971| 9.30.10 @ 11:23PM
I got married at 22 in 1994, my husband was 24. We both had degrees (he went on to get a graduate degree) and we now have 7 kids. We were close to divorce for probably the first 5 years but worked through it and now I can honestly say he is the best guy in the world and we are so happy.
I think women and men are too focused on themselves to make marriage work. It is hard, but it is mostly how you handle it rather than the issues themselves.
I agree that the family model has been destroyed by the permissive attitude of society to accept any kind of behavior because it "feels good." That isn't what I want my children to learn and certainly not how my husband and I live.
Gloria| 10.1.10 @ 12:50PM
"I think women and men are too focused on themselves to make marriage work. It is hard, but it is mostly how you handle it rather than the issues themselves."
You nailed it, rr1971. This is the key. If people just realized this one fact alone there would be less divorce, and that applies to both men and women. That attitude takes some commitment though, and without it there's no hope at all for a successful Marriage. Gotta want it.
ron| 9.30.10 @ 11:36PM
I liked the article and did not take it as a judgment but just an observation about life today. Having done 10 years with one person ( a sort of prison joke, she used to call me warden at times) from when I was young and she was quite young and built a prosperous life together, I never imagined ever being single. Genuine love mixed with a bit of obsession and a lot of time spent together working was fabulous. We lived well but did not get married or have children. I was spoiled I guess. Eventually I guess you must pick which side you wish to be on and for many reasons we split rather than get married and have children.
I came to realize how hard it was to replace what we had then. I learned to value the good fortune of finding someone with whom I just clicked. After a series of friends that were real friends but lacked that "magic" of my old love, I became shocked that I very well might stay single. It felt oddly predestined. From a young man who learned that 1 + 1 can very well add up to much more than 2 , I began to sense it is not a given. It might not ever happen again and I very well could spend my latter days alone. I went from a person who had felt a bit claustrophobic from being so close with with one person for 10 years and wishing some time alone to becoming someone who began to sense time alone might be nearly all that I would have. It was really an unexpected shock. Some people did fill that time, whether obligations with the aging in my family or involvement in the community but I never felt that gift of true bonding with a mate like I once had had. I am not sad about it but I learned something valuable. I became a more genuine person, a person that values others in a way I guess I never did. I have loved my alone time. I have been able delve into things that intrigued me. I have had other types of relationships that have been equally beautiful. I gave more of myself than ever.
So maybe the article is about seasons of life. Maybe one image of the way life is supposed to be is not the contrast the author is making. Maybe we are supposed to see that for some reason the life we experience has tremendous values in all its days, the good ones, the bad ones , the ones filled with others and the ones we spend alone.
rcl| 10.1.10 @ 1:32AM
I put before you Life and Death, a blessing or a curse. Choose Life.
You chose poorly. All your sophistry is simply more of the same "me, myself and I" that allowed you to dump on the woman you pretended to "love".
You are a fraud.
ron| 10.1.10 @ 2:16AM
I spent years of my "alone" time volunteering in soup kitchens, old folks homes, hospitals, hospices and prisons. I cared for a couple of elderly folks until their death so they were able to stay in their homes. I provided a home for a young pregnant girl(not by me) to safely have her baby as long as she stayed free from her problems with drugs and alcohol. I have had rich relationships of all sorts including many moments with the elderly as they approached death. I visited lonely prisoners whose families had abandoned them.
As I said, there are often seasons to peoples lives. The author's story made me think of times in the past. People are single and/or without children . The why of it might be a bit more complex than just a devotion to a job. I felt the article could be seen as an observation about "what is". This is the life they have. It is a gift. People will find themselves living through all sort of things for all sorts of reasons.
You sound like you might be having a bad day. Best to you.
Jodi| 10.2.10 @ 9:10AM
You are a kind and compassionate person.
ron| 10.2.10 @ 11:34AM
And you Jodi are very perceptive!!! Just kidding!!!
Some Spirit , with humor and good cooking are good for a person.
Give, and it shall be given to you. For whatever measure you deal out to others, it will be dealt to you in return.”
"A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult”
Gloria| 10.1.10 @ 12:28PM
That was nasty, rcl. He's an honest man speaking honestly. He learned through his splitting up with the girl he loved that maybe he ought to have married and didn't, but he learned to value relationships more.
Marriage in and of itself isn't the answer to life but it can be wonderful if two people work at it, as it is work. Love is work and it takes both parties wanting it to last. Some don't marry. Big deal. We will not be judged by God at the end of our lives whether we married or not, but what we did with the life He gave us.
ron | 10.1.10 @ 1:18PM
Thank you for your kind spirit. I thought it odd that the admitted failure of a relationship was ascribed only to me. Things happen and people end up single and maybe where God wishes them to be.
Actually in my case it led from a life sort of obsessed with the material things and fun and opened up an incredible spiritual journey. Do I regret mistakes, get lonely at times, struggle with new challenges etc., yes , but I have also enjoyed the creation around us and experienced depth with all sorts of people of all sorts of stature. I have known love from my family and strangers. I have had people come up to me who I barely remembered and tell me I helped save their lives.
The critical comment was a surface appraisal of a human being from a few sentences. My point initially was that it is hard to say what these single women have experienced and what they think. A tiny snapshot of a few words or an external view of their lives is not the whole story of a human being.
As I said elsewhere, wasn't Jesus single?
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 1:45PM
God bless you, Ron. May you find peace and joy.
ron | 10.1.10 @ 2:18PM
You gave me an excuse for a couple of favorite quotes.
Jesus said,
"Go and learn the meaning of the words, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice.' 10" ,
St. Francis offered this,
The Lord bless you and keep you.
May He show His face to you and have mercy.
May He turn His countenance to you and give you peace.
The Lord bless you!
Gloria| 10.1.10 @ 2:52PM
"The steadfast love of the LORD never ceases, His mercies never come to an end; they are new every morning; great is Thy faithfulness. "The LORD is my portion," says my soul, "therefore I will hope in Him." Lam. 3:22-25.
Lam 3:25 The LORD is good to those who wait for him, to the soul that seeks him.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:57AM
Ron, it's people with your experience that have earned the right to my trust in what they tell me. Not those who swear up and down about how happy and fulfilled they are in single-dom with their toys and hobbies and cosmopolitian friends and elite clubs.
Best to you.
ron| 10.3.10 @ 8:04PM
The article just keyed some memories that for some reason I decided to post. It got me to think about things I had forgotten.
I had enough toys and the ability to take extended vacations to get that out of my system as a goal. Fun yes, give it a go if you can, but there are other things.
The experience of kids can certainly give the gift of the present to us older folks and I have been fortunate for my niece and nephews kids. My next door neighbor has 10 kids and their kids now have kids and I really admire their enthusiastic living. Their sister in law who lives there has no kids. I think we do the best we can. I now have, and have had for a long time, a core relationship with God, although it is mysterious at times, I feel comfortable being single, I enjoyed a long term relationship, I have enjoyed sharing time with the infirmed elderly and even lonely prisoners and I have great relationships with my brother , sister and their families. I am fortunate but life can't be all home runs. You have to learn from loses as well. Thanks for your nice comment. I am a bit shocked I got such pleasant responses. I just wrote and did not think much about what I was saying.
ron| 10.3.10 @ 1:11AM
rcl, this article sparked some memories for some reason , and having thought about the circumstances way back when a bit, I thought about your drive by comment. First, are you a he /she /it?
Why don't you suit up and come back and talk a bit?
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 7:49PM
Why bother? The fool is obviously miserable. Focus on the nice comments instead.
ron| 10.3.10 @ 9:10PM
I started thinking back and this dumb comment smoked me a bit. Then I figured the comment wasn't made by an "it", and if were made by a person who has the physical attributes of a male I would like to have a bit of a "conversation" with "him" . If the comment was made by a woman, I would assume something I said reminded her of something personal and I would maybe have tried to get her to understand my experience had a lot of different dimensions about it that caused it to fail. I really don't think it was due to my lack of sincerity or even trustworthiness. Sometimes people of ill will meddle in others problems for their own gain, destiny?, human weakness, whatever. I guess I just was thinking about something I had forgotten.
Actually I was hoping it was a guy because I wanted to shred the little weenie for making a "drive-by hit with scriptural references" and then running away. I am spiritual but I have another side as well.
You are right however, and I chose to focus on those nice comments and was very taken by the kindness. It seems to me their are a lot of nice women around and I don't see the point of judging them as some sort of "class" like libs seem to do with blacks. Latinos etc. If they have kids , don't have kids, have known love in a relationship or not, young or old, they are individual people , God's children if you will and worthy of a shot at respect from me on their individual merits and their present character not their failings or whatever of the past.
I am a little startled by the assumption that life is some sort of checklist that people fill out and if you check the right things everything falls in place. I think choices are critical but didn't Forrest Gump come up with that T shirt, "Sh*t Happens!"?
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 9:48PM
The troll's not worth your dust, Ron. Keep your chin up, always have faith in the Good Lord and stay kind. You're a keeper!
I truly pity so many embittered, angry commenters on this thread. If they really new our Savior, they would show more compassion toward others. The Golden Rule works.
ron| 10.3.10 @ 10:45PM
I've done lots of volunteer work in prisons and have been in lock downs without any guards or protection other than the partner I went in with and dealt with the various gang's members, murderers doing life, and plenty of run of the mill screw ups etc., and while keeping a wary eye out for a crackpot , I never took much garbage while trying to offer a spiritual message of renewal. Like I said, if the nasty commenter happened to be a guy.... well, whatever.
Like you, I don't get all the bitterness and talk of spinsters and the like. As to kids, I think my parents were happy when the last of the kids took off. They enjoyed their friends,maybe a cocktail and a little old school dancing, I believe. They loved their grandkids and great grandkids but after building their life and trying to do the best they could for their kids they did a few things they had wanted to do. There were a few of single aunts around which were very helpful to my uncle who had 8 kids.
I am in too deep now , so I figure God must know what He is doing even if I am confused a bit.
So by your name, Autumn, I am assuming you join the list of the other nice ladies who have posted. Thanks.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 11:43PM
One thing you can always be sure of--God knows what He's doing. Good thing, too--we sure don't.
Take care.
Answers1| 9.30.10 @ 11:42PM
I love my family, and they love me. Happiness.
Oldwiseman| 9.30.10 @ 11:57PM
Thank you. Pure and sweet. God Bless You
Canadian Guy| 10.1.10 @ 12:38AM
I am single now, and at my age I do run into some of these very smart and charming ladies. But the problem is that my kids are 25 and 23, and if at age 40-45-47 a lady wants kids, then I am not the guy. I did the family gamble, both kids are perfectly healthy and there is no way I am going to trisomy roulette. So when a lady in her 30's drops by, you can see them sweating. They know they cannot find a stable guy in his thirties who has never been married. These guys still have their skateboards and their playstations and know that they can find a girl on every other corner at a ski resort. These guys also have money, and watched their fathers get creamed in the divorce courts so they are in avoidance mode. Well then there is me. Substantial assets, nice guy, single, well read all of the stuff that is only appreciated by other married women, or the massively desperate, this is not lost on me, and I am not jaded. So, if these gals had applied themselves to a balanced life desire, it might have worked out. More dogs and cats might be the answer, but they should at least find a good man, but we are in very short supply. Please watch Judge Judy, if you dont know what kind of men to avoid, you will learn quickly watching her show.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 4:59AM
Once again, I'm reminded of all those career gals in college that were "too busy" to date me. Your comment proves my observations then (and now) were are are correct.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 10:15AM
Suddenly everything becomes clear...Cylar and others suffer from Nice Guy Syndrome.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 7:50PM
How would you know? There's nothing nice about you, troll.
SoCon| 10.1.10 @ 12:57AM
Damn! I'm so glad I married young!!
Village kid| 10.1.10 @ 1:35AM
These women have been indoctrinated by hard leftist feminism that teaches them to despise middle class family values. Children were anathema to career and life goals. If we could somehow add all of the children into this world that all of these truly brilliant beautiful women forfeited this nation would be far, far more stable financially as well as socially. there are no children around any of the neighborhoods any more and there is no one to buy the empty nest homes their parents once owned or are trying to sell. When they are old and grey with no grand children to enjoy,they will only have themselves and their pets left. Imagine, 100,000 cans of cat food and litter and caring for 3 or 4 cats is their investment in the future of human kind. This is causing incalculable damage to future generations prospects as there will be far less educated, intelligent progeny to care for our planet. What a waste!
Village kid| 10.1.10 @ 1:43AM
This also explains their deep seated, visceral hatred of Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin had the children and she did not find success through a rich or politically connected husband but she is a self starter who clawed her way to to the top and disproved all of the feminist nonsense that it could not be done with children in tow. Sarah Palin is blessed with great kids and will have many enjoyable moments with her grand kids in the future. Life is about living and GIVING life to others, not just self centered isolation from inter- generational relationships with kids around.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:00AM
Spot on!!!
Scott| 10.1.10 @ 4:21AM
I think Skip's comment merits being repeated:
"The lasting impression this article gave me is that the nuclear family (father, mother, children) is the ideal arrangement. God created this arrangement and the Bible supports this position. Satan is attacking the family from both extremes. I believe liberalism is Satan's effective tool to accomplish this."
ron| 10.1.10 @ 9:42AM
Not to make any comparisons, just an observation, wasn't Jesus single?
Gloria| 10.1.10 @ 12:33PM
Yes He was, ron, but Scott is making the point about how Liberalism is destructive to the family and the institution of Marriage.
At the same time, the New Testament does not require that one be married, but if you choose to be that it be right, and based on His will.
ron| 10.1.10 @ 1:29PM
It was just a little observation and maybe an attempt at a little humor about the discussion.
While I agree with what you say, often life happens to us and our lives might not be all our choice.
St. Francis said to preach with action. People do a lot of stupid things and most wish they could take them back. That is not always possible.
di french| 10.1.10 @ 6:13AM
There is another [as Yoda said to Obi Won -- or was it the other way around?] Regardless, there is another group not mentioned here. Many conservative, educated, Christian couples are choosing to have large families. Coincidentally, many of these same families are choosing to home school their children and are instilling in them along with the usual mix of academics, a strong sense of their national heritage, personal responsibility and purpose.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:01AM
...and that is exactly the kind of family I aspire to lead. Thank you for pointing this out.
Mickey| 10.1.10 @ 6:38AM
"After watching my sisters endure divorce after divorce, all of them nasty and contentious, I really cant see what I am supposed to have missed." ~ That made my heart hurt (sorry, just being honest). To be so defined by the events in other peoples lives, and to be an adult, is sadness incarnate. You're missing alot (like saying "The Grand Canyon sure is big", can't fully explain the enormity). To comprhend what you've missed would be to have the scene in the original Matrix, where Neo is plugged in for the first time, and ALL the needed info is downloaded, because the body of information is too big (big like the Grand Canyon). Love and Peace and Light... but, I'm sad that you can't see it.
skeptic| 10.1.10 @ 8:02AM
"IN OUR inner-city neighborhood, there are countless poor, young, single mothers with more children than they can handle."
Don't feign to live next door or across the street from those examples of unwed prolific baby makers, as if you would be, let alone are, in their same neighborhood.
Btw, the intellectual spinsters have what they wanted and worked so hard to get. And while they were younger, they are the same mean people ridiculing those who chose to find the balance between education, family and career. Why pity women libbers who antagonized professional young women who took the break to bear and raise a child? After asking mothers returning to work about their families during interview, the employer scoffs, "Anyone can have children."
Motherhood when done well requires every bit and more sacrifice than achieving a successful career. And those who go the lone career route make certain to be punitive with those who elected to bear a child or two while biologically strong, as the spinsters impede by every means their working mother counterpart. "I sacrificed having my own family so that I could have this job. Who the hell do you think you are, with your family, despite your marvelous resume, coming here for work? You're an affront to my existence. You threaten my value judgments, and make me feel uncomfortable." The unpardonable, unforgivable reality check.
There's always adoption for older women who really want to mother. They lie to themselves about regret, unwilling still to forgo their self centered life. Give them the opportunity to adopt a beautiful baby, and see. "Oh, I couldn't, not just now. I don't have ...."
They don't have what it takes, the willingness to place someone else's life above their own, or even on status equal to their own. For all that they are, they're not mothers. By choice.
Carol| 10.1.10 @ 9:21AM
I get really tired of the "us" and "them" mentality. Not all single women by choice are selfish, self-centered witches. Singlehood offers unique opportunities and freedom to contribute to society--see St. Paul's opinion on remaining unmarried. On the flipside, women who chose marriage and children are not selling out the sisterhood. Parents have the best opportunity for helping to create a stable society.
The point is, there is ample room for us to respect the contributions of all caring, intelligent women.
The saddest part is the fact that many women have believed the lie that marriage and children will hold them back from being their best. Because a choice isn't a real choice if it is based on false and/or incomplete information, whether you are seeking information on the pros/cons of remaining single OR marrying and having children.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:04AM
As someone pointed out, Paul was talking about going off into the desert and foregoing all material comfort (including a family) in order to better connect with God.
If you've given up marriage because you think that's what God wants for you, fine. Otherwise, you're just another self-righteous snot, and you draw my ire.
Sam Vaughn| 10.1.10 @ 9:24AM
Great posts as usual on the SpecOrg. I'm reminded that "opportunity isn't as rare as the ability to see it" or in my case the woman I had the good sense to fall for, the leap of faith when others (in the budding prime of my career) told me what a fool I was, and the discovery that a life of bachelorhood would have made me a shell of a man....
Bob K.| 10.1.10 @ 9:25AM
Excellent essay.
Why doesn't anyone call it what it is: Genetic Suicide. Both men and women are committing it. That doesn't say much about how they feel about themselves.
No point in discussing it unless that is the primary theme of the discussion.
teedub| 10.1.10 @ 9:03PM
who care's if white people commit genetic suicide? What does it matter if the earth, or even the USA is populated by those not deemed white?
One theme of this article is racism. The author insists that is regrettable that highly educated white women don't reproduce and it also regrettable that WOC do reproduce.
It seems that author, and you, are saying that the wrong race of women are reproducing.
Am i wrong in my conclusion of your statement?
Jeremiah| 10.2.10 @ 2:34AM
I care that white people or any people might be committing genetic suicide, hater. Get your head out of your ass.
teedub| 10.2.10 @ 2:22PM
Again....why do you care and what does it matter the genetics of the population? Aren't individual people and relationships the most important thing?
Why this fixation on "genetics"?
May i suggest the removal of your cranium from your colon as well? (seriously, this is what passes for discourse?)
Stop avoiding the question...What does it matter what genetic marker that determines skin color is the predominant one in the USA?
Jesse Jackson| 10.3.10 @ 1:02AM
Dear teedub,
Come on. You can't be that dense, are you? You'll call me racist, but look at Africa, Latin America, India, etc. etc. Black or brown people are goofy. If the U.S. was predominantly black, then it would be as screwed up as Somalia, Haiti or any other of the hellholes. Surely you can see that.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:07AM
Heh. Or maybe it's because those of European stock (for some reason) seem to have gravitated toward the cultural values (Christianity, hard work, capitalism...) that build strong nations. A lot of Third World countries worship heathen gods or are atheist. It probably has more to do with religion and culture than with race. That's fact. I don't care if someone comes along, and calls that ethnocentrist or something.
Jeremiah| 10.3.10 @ 7:52PM
Correction, teedub--why YOUR fixation on genetics? Bigot.
Bob K.| 10.3.10 @ 11:59PM
Yes your conclusion is wrong, Tee Dub.
Genetic suicide is not racial. It is an individual choice. You are talking about national, ethnic or cultural suicide. There has been much written about that. It is not the same thing as refusing to let your own gene line continue or die with you.
Bill| 10.1.10 @ 9:52AM
I realize that the article is about women who would have married and for one or another did not, but one of the things I have thought about in my life is the disappearance of lifetime bachelors and spinsters, men and women who don't marry and live their lives as singletons.
In my mother and father's generation (and probably before theirs), bachelors and spinsters were fairly common and there was no particular social stigma. Now, I notice that if a person doesn't marry, many in society assume they're homosexual, either practicing (in the closet or out of it) or repressed. That didn't use to be the case.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:08AM
It was probably "the case" then just as it is now. Back then, however, the homos were still in the closet rather than all up in your face about it.
village kid| 10.1.10 @ 12:06PM
Genetic dead-enders. What a a shame! If they could only imagine what their ancestors went through to provide life for future generations they would surely breed to sustain the dream.
Cylar | 10.3.10 @ 5:09AM
They can't hear you over the latte-slurping and laptop key-clicking, down at Starbucks.
Granite| 10.1.10 @ 12:58PM
There are more and more of these posts about how well-behaved educated women are marrying and bearing children less and less, I believe the census data results are true. Many people making assumptions as to why that is: The women waited too long, they expect too much, they are all bitches, women are too selfish, whatever. But I have yet to see one survey or any data where anyone has asked this growing army of educated single women why they have opted to not marry and not have kids. I expect nobody will be conducting a survey anytime soon considering that everyone else is having so much fun making derogatory guesses. However, some adequate data would be enlightening.
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 1:54PM
The comments weren't all derogatory; many were thoughtful, and some were even inspirational.
Good thread.
Bob K.| 10.1.10 @ 2:16PM
It's a serious problem and it is time we asked ourselves why we are encouraging it.
Perhaps it is a gene that all humans have. When we become affluent we cease to be concerned about our genetic future. There may be something inherent in our human genetic makeup that allows other cultures to become dominant and then decline making room for another culture to dominate. Cultures on the rise seem to expand their genetic make up by intermarrying with new cultures. Once on top they then begin to become more selective and less fecund and the decline starts.
AJ K| 10.1.10 @ 4:09PM
It's human selfishness, the bane of our existence.
Dave| 10.1.10 @ 5:15PM
What's all the flapdoodle about? Some people are cut out to marry and have kids, and some are not. I'm a 59-year-old businessman and have never had the urge to marry. At 45 I had a mild interest in having kids, but never strong enough to act upon. I consider myself reasonably happy and have pretty full days, often too full. Whatever happened to Americans doing what they want? Why can't people hoe their own garden and row their own boat, and let other people do the same? I mean, it's not as if the population is shrinking. As a society, we seem to have the whole reproduction thing pretty well covered.
East Mass.| 10.1.10 @ 5:28PM
Well said, Dave. Given that this is a conservative web site, ostensibly dedicated to freedom, the article and many of the responses have been downright scary. Is this a free country or not?
Nobama| 10.1.10 @ 5:55PM
A lot of people are afraid of the future and blame their unhappy lives on others rather than themselves.
We used to be a much hardier, more self-sufficient people. We have become soft.
Bob K.| 10.1.10 @ 6:20PM
No problem with that Dave. As long as you believe in individual freedom and the rule of Law. As long as you aren't active with any political party that wants to control family life and their religious beliefs. A party that wants to control all aspects of how children should be raised and indoctrinated.
It is really rather annoying to be lectured on how to raise children by adults who have no money on the table, so to speak.
Bob K.| 10.1.10 @ 6:20PM
No problem with that Dave. As long as you believe in individual freedom and the rule of Law. As long as you aren't active with any political party that wants to control family life and their religious beliefs. A party that wants to control all aspects of how children should be raised and indoctrinated.
It is really rather annoying to be lectured on how to raise children by adults who have no money on the table, so to speak.
Dave| 10.1.10 @ 6:55PM
Well, as regards income taxes, single people put more money on the table on a proportional basis since they don't get as many deductions. So, they certainly have a stake in being politically active as regards public school spending where they live.
If you're comments about controlling family life, telling people what to belief and indoctrinating kids in the schools refer to the Democrat party, then have no worries. I never vote for those nihilists.
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 1:36PM
The problem, Dave, is that we have a welfare state and a family courts system that rewards irresponsible parenting. So people who are successful and happy without kids (and I can see where you're coming from) are setting up society to fail.
Hey, why should anyone fight to protect freedom? Or environmental laws? Both left and right agree that society needs to monitor the overall health of itself.
Our society isn't shrinking because, essentially, we're being invaded. In theory, if our population was decreasing, that wouldn't be a bad thing because we'd have more resources and a more skilled workforce to manage them. If we had a WWII era population, we wouldn't need to import oil for example. But... societies with declining populations and weak militaries and immigration laws don't last too long.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:12AM
In America, maybe. Most other Western countries are actually shrinking due to progressive cultural values and the availability of birth control. (Don't even get me started on abortion.) Don't be so sure that even America has the "whole reproduction thing pretty well covered." We're the only western nation left with the required 2.1/woman replacement rate, and even that is now in doubt.
As to the flapdoodle, those who whine the most about freedom are usually the first to force their choices on others.
bellacoker| 10.3.10 @ 11:28AM
I find your magnanimity incredibly impressive. It's always a bright spot to run across people on the Internet who maintain their ability to be reasonable.
Dan| 10.1.10 @ 9:40PM
Man alive, look at the author patting himself on the back for having found the One True Way to live! Enough smug to fell a yak in this piece...
Some people don't want to get kids. Some people don't even want to get married. Heck, some people are born without a mating instinct altogether! It's rare, but it happens. This whole situation is not about duty or tongue-clucking prudes scolding singles, warning them that they'll be sorry "later". It's about people doing the right thing. And as other posters have pointed out, some people would be/are terrible parents! Each person has to follow their own path, and anyone who thinks there's a one-size-fits-all approach to life is out of touch with reality.
More importantly, a person who can only be happy in a relationship? Totally unhealthy. The spinsters in this article have a problem all right, but it's with self esteem and critical thinking, not their love life.
Jackie| 10.1.10 @ 11:51PM
Why does anyone care what someone else does? I mean, if marriage and kids are so great people wouldn't need to justify it.
kaje | 10.2.10 @ 12:31AM
Exactly. The defensiveness going on here is crazy. I don't rag on someone who gets fulfillment from their kids and says so, or even despises the thought of not having kids. Appleby and others say it, though, and watch the dogpile.
The women who say they are happy being childless, probably are. Ditto the ones married with kids. Ditto the unmarried ones with kids, or married women without. Different strokes.
However, freaking out about someone else merely saying they're happy pursuing a different path than yours gives the impression that you're NOT happy with what you've chosen.
NO kaje| 10.3.10 @ 7:57PM
Talk about defensiveness! Take a look in the mirror, Ms. Femi-Nazi. You're certifiable!!
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:14AM
Because the country's native-born population is teetering on demographic decline. Live and let live all day long, but freedom comes with responsibilities.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 11:24AM
You didn't strike me as someone who cared about the plight of Native American tribes. That'll teach me not to assume. I was wrong about you, and I apologize.
JT| 10.2.10 @ 8:33AM
I agree completely about people having more kids than they can handle. Probably the most glaring example of that would be the "Quiverfull" movement. They churn out kids so fast the parents can't even bother raising them. They just raise the first few girls and turn them into slave labor to raise the rest of their brood. It's hardly fair to force children to spend the first 18 years of their lives raising a more than a dozen siblings because your parents are insane fundamentalists. And it's always the girls they enslave. Should a boy happen to be the oldest, they're completely excused from any "wimmens work".
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:16AM
I'm sure you're the life of the gathering in all those hippy-dippy Manhattan cocktail parties. Take your ugly stereotypes about the flyover country and shove it.
Trish| 10.2.10 @ 1:24PM
What about the churches full of single women who would like nothing more to than to have families and just can't, because the ratio of single Christian men in their twenties and thirties to Christian women isn't equal and hasn't been for a long time now (when it comes to both rates of church attendance and self-professed belief)? They were traditionally raised, most of them have no "high-powered" careers to fall back on or prioritize, and because of this, the worst of both worlds seems to await them - languishing in jobs that they thought were temporary until the time that they'd happily abandon them for full-time motherhood or low-paying careers that they'd chosen specifically because they'd be more accomodating towards mothers/prepare them for motherhood through extensive contact with children, fully believing that their primary purpose on earth was to be a helpmeet to their husband, and a cornerstone of a bustling household, only to discover that a husband won't be making an appearance during their peak reproductive years and so they're cut off from a purposeful existence for them as they percieved it.
Also, from someone who is saving her virginity for marriage and doesn't "give the milk away for free" I can say that it's widely seen as a deeply undesirable quality by young American men, and after a certain age, it's seen as a "red flag" and/or baggage in and of itself. Men want a woman who's said "no" to a lot of guys... until it turns out that they aren't going to be the exception. Also, even I'm skeptical about the idea that the prospect of sex with one woman in particular can effectively lure a man into a lifetime commitment of having sex with only that woman, when they can easily just decide that they're going to move on to another woman/other women that will have sex with them without a lifetime commitment or exclusivity. Along the way, he may become deeply emotionally and physically involved with one of them and decide to marry (an impending child often serves as an effective catalyst when both parties are of the age where people are expected to settle down), while women who openly profess a desire to stay chaste are almost immediately out of the running. I do it because of religion, not because it makes sense or actually works in today's society.
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 1:31PM
Trish, I tried the churchgoing route to meet women. In fact, men are the ones taking the initiative to meet women overall. And that's perhaps the problem.
In the past, a churchgoing woman didn't just sit in church, say her prayers, and then go home and wonder why the perfect man didn't come down on the wings of angels. They took action. They did community events. They learned skills and talents to make themselves valuable. I was an eligible bachelor in the states and I went to church picnics and events but, in addition, also Opera and other stuff women should really enjoy (I'm going to a fantastic Gianni Schicci show tonight)
And in most cases, the women either weren't there or they would cluster with each other and coldly reject a man who tried to come up and introduce himself if he didn't look like Tyrone Powers.
Summation: Simply NOT having a career and being in a low wage job, and going to church, isn't the same as being a truly traditional woman. A truly traditional woman is friendly and social, knows how to deal with jerks or men they aren't interested in in a reasonable manner, also takes an initiative to find a good man.
Match.com and even eharmony have plenty of men on them. Until a few years ago, the ratio of men to women on internet dating sites was something like 10 to 1. Or even 20 to 1. There's no excuse for women not finding men other than LAZINESS.
Trish| 10.2.10 @ 2:15PM
These women are taught that taking virtually any initiative on their part, aside from being outside of their homes on a regular basis, is unfeminine and unbiblical - that they're usurping the man's leadership position and setting a dysfunctional precedent. Furthermore, the more popular contemporary Christian romantic advice books have poo-pooed dating as "of the world" and endorsed a courtship system in its stead. Problem is, there is no established system of familial matchmaking in American Christian culture that would actually allow such a system to thrive like there was in Biblical days.
Also, what kind of skills and talents make a woman a more eligible wife... besides cooking, of course?
PolishKnight| 10.2.10 @ 4:21PM
Trish, nobody has to teach women, church going or not, to not ask men out. That's what's rather funny about it. One of the biggest selling dating books for women out there, The Rules, advises women to not ask men out or pay their own way. These women don't care whether this is God's law or not and it's probably safe to say they didn't need to bother paying for a book to make that decision. It's like young men buying books advising them to play video games and watch TV...
I have met plenty of religious Christian women outside of the USA that are quite friendly, honest, and clear about what they want from a relationship and would even be considered aggressive by American standards. They are also some of the most sexually chaste women imaginable (they refuse to have sex before marriage.)
Royale| 10.3.10 @ 7:59PM
Too bad you didn't, horndog.
PolishKnight| 10.4.10 @ 6:17AM
?!?!?!
Royale, I don't know what you mean by that remark "too bad you didn't." Didn't what?
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:17AM
The men with that attitude aren't worth having anyway. No big loss...and I say that AS a man.
ron| 10.3.10 @ 6:13PM
I was interested in your comment because your mention of "not giving it away.....because of religion" showed a seriousness of commitment that is attractive. I wasn't able to pick up whether this commitment was sparked by a religious upbringing, ie.,sort of social reasons , or from a connection with God , maybe a knowledge of Him, that makes you wish for His will for your life.
I love that you are even skeptical for example whether sex with one woman can lure a man from straying. I sensed a honesty and sincerity in your comment.
I had experienced a deep connection with a woman when we were young. We built a successful material life and then due to various circumstances we did not survive together. While I did then avail myself of those women who give it away and others who bargain it away, I found sex for sex sake empty after a while.
I then found myself not accepting invitations from perfectly nice women frankly because I did not feel the potential of a deeper connection and I did not want to hurt anybody especially if it were just for sex. I did not want to use someone in this way. So I found empty sex lacking after a while and an actual real bonding like I had known previously to not be all that easy to find. To me, I think if presented with the "right person", and if she was a woman who, because of God, had been more careful sexually, that would be an asset.
While I do understand the physical frustration, the qualities of the person and the ability to bond together would be like finding the rare gem and her seriousness about her values would be an enhancement. Maybe I am a dreamer and everything is just a bloodless exchange but I have known a deep human connection of this variety and I have known the personal mercy of God, I have more than satiated my earthly desires to understand what they offer and have decided that I want what God wants for me.
At times I feel like Peter after Jesus gave them the "hard saying" about eating His flesh when many of the disciples left, and Jesus asked Peter "Do you also want to leave?" and Peter replied "Master, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.We have come to believe and are convinced that you are the Holy One of God." I am not a great example or particularly smart but I don't see forcing what is not happening in an area as crucial as this. Nevertheless the struggle between what I believe is best and what fear or physical desires crave is at times not easy .
I have babbled aimlessly, most likely , but I genuinely wish you the best. I love your sincerity in your comment here.
emo| 10.2.10 @ 3:40PM
The root cause of this is the feminzation of education. About 60% of those graduating from college are female and that has been the case for 10-15 years. Women still do not want to "marry down" but the ratio of college educated men to women is less than 1:1. Thus a certain number of women, unless they "marry down" will never find a long term partner.
Trish| 10.3.10 @ 1:12AM
Couldn't they just marry divorced college-educated men... they are legion. If marriage in our society has essentially become a game of musical chairs, one of the results is that while fewer people marry for life, more people end up getting married at least once... people that would've been bench warmers 60 years ago are getting put into the game. Also, a lot of college-educated women are in jobs that aren't at all prestigious. I don't think a college-educated administrative assistant would consider herself "marrying down" if she partnered with a high school educated businessman. Sure, a female MD isn't going to marry a truck driver, but the vast majority of female college graduates don't become doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, chemists or any other well-compensated positions with copious opportunities for upward mobility involving work that they enjoy and therefore could become passionate about to the point of single-minded obsession or identify with so heavily that they wear their educational credentials like a crown and see non-college educated folks as mere commoners. If you're ringing people up at Wal-Mart, your BA in Art History tends to be an afterthought, perhaps even something you wish to forget entirely.
Jenny| 10.2.10 @ 7:23PM
Excellent points, Trish.
It is extremely difficult to find an eligible, decent, religious man when you are a single woman in your forties. Many of those men are, as their profile on match.com states, looking for women 10 years younger. Or they are looking for casual encounters and not for a real relationship.
I go to a mid-sized parish church (700 families) in a semi-rural community, and I know of only 1 single man that is even approximately my age.
Difficult to meet a man my age? Impossible! Especially when you have some moral standards.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:19AM
Were you one of those legion of "too busy" chicks that blew me off when I was in school and looking for a date?
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 11:40AM
I was going to snark at this, but there's no point is there?
Not bitter at all. Nooooooo sirreebob.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 8:01PM
That was a wise move on your part. You have no right to snark, considering your numerous bitter posts above.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 8:58PM
What was bitter about them? At no point did I ever say "WHAT ABOUT ALL THE MEN WHY WON'T THEY DATE FUN GIRLS LIKE MEEEEE" like Whiny McWhineButt here.
I was spurred on from the bitterness I saw here. Appleby just said marriage wasn't for her, in a most non-confrontational manner, and she got torn apart. Yeah, it's "you guys started it!", but it's the truth.
If someone says they love kids and can't imagine life without them, I'm happy for them. If they start ripping on the childless for no reason, like Appleby or the women in the article, hell yeah I'm going to rag on them. I'd do the same if a childfree person did an unprovoked attack on parents. Because that person is a jerk and needs to be ripped upon.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 9:57PM
Go suck on a sausage, piggy.
fsilber| 10.2.10 @ 10:07PM
Slate magazine has been running a series speculating on the reason America's middle class has been shrinking. Unsurprisingly, the author did NOT mention the phenomena described in this article as a key cause. Their church dogma is that if only schools were better funded and unions were stronger, the children of that unwed whore would take the place of these talented women in the middle class when they are gone.
Jo Jo| 10.2.10 @ 11:32PM
Wow. It's astounding that garbage like this is actually published. I feel back for someone like this writer who has such limited life experience and such a narrow view of the world and people, especially women. Yet he feels qualified to write a preachy article full of anecdotal drivel.
Nish| 10.3.10 @ 12:33AM
It's not anecdotal drivel. And it's not garbage. There is a significant population of women (and I mean women) that want children, but have waited to do so, and now cannot have them. There exists a population of men as well, but given that their fertility is not as time-sensitive, it is far less of an issue. I'm a fertility doc, and most of these women have remorse for having delayed in the first place.
And no, this fact does not mean that EVERY single childless woman older than 40 feels this way (as though trotting out that exception somehow invalidates the rule). Plus, when people mention that their children enhance their lives, and some argue that it isn't for other people, that may be fine. BUT I have yet to meet parents who actively DISLIKE their children and would not have had them in the first place. So it sounds to me like on the whole, a stunning majority of parents love having their children.
And to the poster above, much of the problem of decreasing marriage rates has to do with the raw deal that marriage is for men in western society.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 1:06AM
"I'm a fertility doc, and most of these women have remorse for having delayed in the first place."
You mean you don't often meet people who aren't into having children, and often encounter women who have trouble conceiving and regret waiting...at a fertility clinic? Le shock.
I personally have yet to meet people who actively dislike eating meat at the deli I work at. May just be confirmation bias, though. Crazy thought.
I do however, have my own anecdotes of parents who regretted having kids. I posted about them upthread.
Cylar| 10.3.10 @ 5:21AM
Yeah, and your "upthread" posts were blown out of the water. Scroll up and take a look.
Methinks you have your head "upthread," by which I mean your colon.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 11:37AM
Let's see...the only response to the relevant post was from a lady agreeing with me. Responses to other posts of mine consisted of Bible quotes, "RARRRRGH TAXES!!!11!" and meaningless, baseless tut-tutting. There was one response, by you, calling me a liar, after which I found three confirming pieces of evidence proving my point and blowing you out of the water.
...I guess you sure showed me! I will leave you to rue about the bitches in high school who didn't want to date you (because you were just oh, so "NICE" and felt entitled to them, I trust.)
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 8:15PM
10/3 @ 12:12 AM--Kaje said, "Why should I buy the pig when the sausage is free?" Nice slut talk--I wouldn't want an STD laden "doctor" like you touching me. You're too high on the yuck scale.
Your childless population is self-extinguishing, and that's a good thing.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 8:47PM
And if political beliefs were transferred via genes, that would mean something.
Also, your reading comprehension is kind of horrible, you know. I didn't say I was a doctor. My feminazi grandmother is.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 9:55PM
My reading comprehension is just fine, it's your boring, poorly written posts that are the problem.
Good thing your mother ignored your femi-nazi grandmother and didn't abort you--or is it?
Sounds like your grandmother was a slut, too; the apple doesn't fall far from the tree, you know.
Kaje | 10.3.10 @ 10:32PM
Remember folks, life is precious. Unless there is potential that the resulting person will be a liberal, or isn't white, or anything else that isn't part of the Republican microphone. And of course, right after they leave the womb they're worthless.
Look how loving and compassionate having kids
made you. LOL
Peace and patriarchy smashing, loves, I'm out.
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 10:45PM
"Life is precious" bleats the embittered femi-nazi who never knew an abortion she didn't like. Your rank hypocrisy would be offensive if you weren't such a joke.
If you could see yourself as you really are, you would be horrified. You're a monster and you don't even know it.
There's nothing loving about you, honey; good to see you're going back to moonbat HuffPo hell where you belong. Good luck with those pigs and sausages you crave so much.
JLO| 10.3.10 @ 8:01AM
Let's not forget another group----those who are unmarried, because nobody wanted us. (Losers?).
Patriot| 10.3.10 @ 8:22PM
Sad post. You're never alone, you know. God bless you.
Elizabeth| 10.3.10 @ 8:23AM
I love the fact that the author of this article says this:
"ALL OF THESE women desperately want a husband and children, but most are deeply afraid of marriage having grown up in an era when nearly half of all marriages end in divorce."
AND THEN, about two sentences later, he says this:
"If these women are sad or depressed at missing out on motherhood, they hide it well. "
So which is it? Are they desperate or not? Or does Mr. Orlet have some secret mind-reading capabilities?
Face it, people. There are plenty of women who are happy and productive without marrying and having children. I am not sure why so many are so invested in denying this simple fact.
Granite| 10.3.10 @ 3:37PM
There are a few different ways people respond to this odd opinion piece written by the racist and sexist Christopher Orlet.
1) They explain that all women want marriage and children, but selfishly wait too long or don't do enough to search for the few good men that would marry them.
2) Explain that men get a raw deal by marrying and that women have only themselves to blame for this.
3) They ignore the article completely and explain that they love raising their kids and it is such a shame that some women are too selfish to fully realize the joys of raising a child.
Do you see a theme?
Autumn| 10.3.10 @ 8:04PM
Yes, we know, Granite. If someone doesn't marchin lock-step with you and your fascist liberal agenda they are racists, sexist homophobes.
Yes we know, ad nauseam. You bore.
RedneckWhiteskinBluecollar| 10.3.10 @ 11:36PM
There are some things in life that you cannot begin to understand unless you experience them first-hand. If you have never experienced it, you cannot imagine intimate relations with a lover.
In the same way, having children is something which cannot be appraised from the outside. Until you hold your own child in your own bosom, you cannot know.
For this reason it isn't possible to weigh solitary "happiness" or "fulfillment" against child-bearing.
Having children is not merely biological fulfillment. Having children is actually the purpose of human life, and like an adventure, "you won't know if you don't go."
Richard Alan| 10.3.10 @ 11:54PM
I only Thank God that my wife and I finally felt comfortable and grounded enough to have a child. He is our joy and love walking around in a happy world. We both waited, but it was worth it. And like Redneck just said, until you have a child you have no concept. We are both educated, professional and intelligent and thought we "knew" all about kids. Then the second he was born everything changed. And we understood much more. Every day is an adventure and brings happiness and tears. Helping him grow helps us grow. And together we are a family. There is nothing to describe it or like it. I cannot imagine my life without this beautiful child. I am so very proud of him every day, and we spend as much time together as possible. Walking, camping, playing with the dog, the cats, cooking, shopping, anything. He learns about life and I learn about the intricacies of Pokemon characters. And that is as it should be. I am sorry for these bright women who pick these shallow vapid men. Ladies, get out of the liberal dungeons of the cities and go to the more rural areas, to suburbs and the countryside. Go find your mate and find out what life is all about. It isn't about an intellectual discussion on politics (although you can have those). It's about the kids. Thank you God for children.
Elizabeth| 10.4.10 @ 12:33AM
Thank God for good American men like you, Richard. Your wife and son are lucky indeed!
Angry Dad| 10.4.10 @ 12:36AM
The simple fact is that a childless person can never know what it is like to have a child. Only a parent is able to judge what it is like to be both childless and a parent. While there is nothing wrong with deciding to remain childless, the argument from the childless point of view will always ring hollow. No matter how many experiences you have with other people's children, it will never qualify you to opine on the experience of being a parent.
If you are happy about your choice to be childless, that is great. It is a free country, and you should not have to explain how you choose to live your life. However, any beliefs about the "benefits" of a childless lifestyle will always be based on a self-imposed ignorance.
BS76| 10.4.10 @ 8:41AM
"Sad, but in all likelihood, they will end up just like their parents: single mothers with too many children, forced to work two minimum wage jobs and still unable to make ends meet, or, worse, like their irresponsible, absentee fathers."
Irresponsible absentee fathers are a stark minority of non-custodial parents. In fact most men who aren't paying child support, which was what was being insinuated above simply are unable to afford the kids, and in many cases were forced into parenthood against their wishes when the women made unilateral decisions to have the kids on their own. IMO those women should be held to the same fiscal standards a woman using a sperm donor would. Maybe then they'd act a little more responsibly with who they procreated with.
FYI the lion's share of child support arrears in the US are by men who make less than $10K a year. That's telling to say the least.
Granite| 10.4.10 @ 12:29PM
If the man doesn't want to be a parent couldn't he have made a choice to abstain from sex or wear a condom?
atheist| 10.4.10 @ 2:51PM
If, as evolutionary biologists believe, the purpose of life is simply to pass on one's genes, they are Darwinian superstars.
Funny how conservatives turn everything into another religion. As the saying would have it, if your only posession is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
Aaron| 10.4.10 @ 7:50PM
Dear Atheist,
You said, "Funny how conservatives turn everything into another religion." When Christianity is rejected, other religions then take it's place, like animal rights, environmentalism, gay rights feminism, etc. Think about it. I'll end with a quote from A.W. Tozer - "Everywhere small bands of atheists gather to discuss the mysteries of unbelief and warm their hands at the chill fires of their religious doubts." I hope that you find God someday befor it's too late. Jesus died for you.
atheist| 10.5.10 @ 3:35PM
Aaron, that's exactly my point. Atheism is not a religion, and neither is Evolutionary Biology, or Feminism, or any of the other things you mentioned. That they all look like religions to you, despite their actual status as scientific disciplines or movements, suggests to me that your primary way of understanding the world is through religion, and you believe that other people are the same way. In reality, that's not necessarily the case.
Chumley| 10.6.10 @ 3:15AM
You claim Atheism is not your primary way of understanding the world yet you identify yourself as"atheist." You just defined yourself as such!
Tool.
atheist| 10.6.10 @ 8:56AM
You still don't get it. Religion isn't my primary way of understanding the world.
Aaron| 10.6.10 @ 11:23PM
Atheist,
The truth shall set you free. Jesus said that He is the truth. If He isn't, then eat, drink and be merry. But if He is the truth, then you need to get to know Him. The thing that people don't like about Christianity is that Jesus tells us that we need to repent of our sins, and that if we don't, then there will be a judgment day. Man doesn't like that, so he chooses to believe that the Bible and Jesus are just some foolish religion not to be taken seriously.
Chumley| 10.7.10 @ 12:43AM
Atheism is the prism through which you see life--ours is belief in God. Atheism has become your religion.
You don't get it because you keep getting hung up on words.
skip| 10.7.10 @ 8:59PM
You believe there is no God. You have no empirical evidence. Hence it is a belief. You have faith there is no God. Faith in what you believe but cannot prove is a religion. Not only are you religious but your religion is one of having faith in nothing.
Brooke| 10.5.10 @ 1:53AM
What a fool--your atheism is your religion.
There are none so blind as those that will not see.