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Eminentoes
The Mosque and the Meaning of Understanding
But does Imam Rauf understand why he’s so well understood?
In order to fully understand the proposed Ground Zero Mosque it requires us to understand the meaning of understanding. There seems to be a misunderstanding of understanding where it concerns Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the Cordoba Initiative and the Park 51 project.
According to the Park 51 website:
Park51 will be a community center promoting tolerance and understanding through three types of programs: arts & culture, education and recreation.
The Cordoba Initiative describes its programming in this manner:
The programs at Cordoba Initiative (CI) are designed to cultivate multi-cultural and multi-faith understanding across minds and borders. In the ten years since our founding, the necessity to strengthen the bridge between Islam and the West continues to prevail.
In a guest editorial that was published in the New York Times on September 7, Rauf explains the significance of the name Cordoba:
Our name, Cordoba, was inspired by the city in Spain where Muslims, Christians and Jews co-existed in the Middle Ages during a period of great cultural enrichment created by Muslims. Our initiative is intended to cultivate understanding among all religions and cultures.
During his September 13 address to the Council on Foreign Relations, Rauf returns to the theme of understanding:
But genuine understanding can only happen when there is honesty, sincerity of motive, and an open heart. For when issues are politicized or used as fodder for commentators on the right or on the left, we just pour fuels on the flames of misunderstanding.
Now for most Americans, understanding means mutual respect and tolerance towards others whether as individuals or groups. But understanding can also have another meaning. It is entirely possible to achieve an understanding in the absence of mutual respect and tolerance. If your child goes to school and the class bully tells him that his lunch money is the price he must pay to avoid being beaten up, then there is an understanding. It is perhaps a painful understanding but it is an understanding nonetheless. With this in mind let us examine what happened in Cordoba, Spain more than 850 years ago.
In 1148, Cordoba was invaded and taken over by the Almohades, a sect of Islamic fundamentalists. The Almohades gave the Christians and Jews of Cordoba three choices.
They could convert to Islam; they could leave Cordoba or they could be executed. Amongst those who fled Cordoba was Moses Maimonides, who in adulthood would become a world renowned physician, philosopher and rabbi.
There was undeniably an understanding between the Almohades and the Christians and Jews of Cordoba. But it was an example of an understanding based not on mutual respect and tolerance but rather an understanding based on conquest and contempt of non-Muslims. Suffice it to say, when Feisal Abdul Rauf cites twelfth century Cordoba as a model by which to “cultivate understanding among all religions and cultures,” it neither inspires confidence nor establishes trust. Just ask Christians in Malaysia.
In January, Malay Muslims burned down Christian churches after the Herald, a Catholic monthly newspaper, had the temerity to correctly use the word “Allah” in reference to the Christian God.
Enter Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf with editorial in hand. While Rauf would acknowledge the use of the word Allah was correct in both legal and theological terms he stated nonetheless that when used by Christians, “it is socially provocative.” As Andy McCarthy of National Review Online put it recently, “You know what else might be ‘socially provocative’? A giant mosque at Ground Zero.” Rauf went on to write:
About the Author
Aaron Goldstein writes from Boston, Massachusetts.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (101) | Leave a comment
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Mirtha Sweetenx| 9.15.10 @ 6:24AM
There is democracy in America, so they do have a right to build a mosque there if they have the proper permits, etc. But is it really a good idea to do this, just because you can do it? I don't believe so. It's a bad idea because it's an act of provocation that dishonors the families of those who died there that day, and it is insensitive to their feelings. There are many other places it could be built besides there. The thing to do would be to build a non-denominational, interfaith memorial.
http://naturacleanse.org/
Ned | 9.15.10 @ 2:51PM
more to the point, this mosque is not so much an act of provocation as it is an act of triumphalism... no matter which side of his face Rauf speaks out of, the intent of this edifice is to celebrate the killing of 3000 infidels
Radegunda| 9.15.10 @ 9:06PM
More than a symbol of triumph, it will also function as a base from which to exert more power. Look for seeing traffic blocked by the rumps-in-the-air crowd, as in Paris, and for infidels to find it uncomfortable to walk through the area. They want to claim central Manhattan for Islam.
Radegunda| 9.15.10 @ 9:07PM
"They" obviously meaning Rauf et al.
Ret. Marine| 9.15.10 @ 7:32AM
Maybe Rauf will understand this, if and when the next attack hits this Nation of understanding individuals from his brothers of the religion of pieces, they will be no misunderstanding as to what must happen. You might want to take a brief walk into the library and understand what happened to the German Americans, the Japanese Americans, the Italian Americans and most of the communist leaning Americans supporting the adventure of the turd Reich. Don't think it can not happen again, better think that over one more time. Our understanding is We have given you every right to amend your violent and ugly message and you understand this to be weakness but, in fact it is nothing other than giving you the benefit of the doubt, no longer. We have no doubt of your understanding, you think you are going to walk all over us under the threat of violence, understand this Rauf, you are very wrong even if your good buddy, Ole pal wannabe head caliphate obamas Bin Lyin thinks we are not up to the challenge. You will not threaten us and get away with it any longer. You have opened the eyes of the vipers living in this Nation of individuals. Our sting is much worse than our stares.
SIRJASON | 9.15.10 @ 5:43PM
Right on Marine, I agree! "We the People..." can and will prevail in this conquest GZM at 51 Pork Place.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf will NOT be pleased when he will be forced to tell the Muslims about the history of Wall Street and how it got the name! Moreover, we know ALL Muslims believe that pork is unclean and they are forbidden to eat or touch pork!
How is the world of Islam going to react when they discover they would be praying to Allah in a Mosque erected on unclean and soiled ground by…PIGS? Would he get a fatwa from the Mullahs for his demise or be commanded to STOP?
This is a perfectly great opportunity for Imam Rauf to take The Donald up on his offer and make a 25% profit on the building and the Governor Paterson’s offer to purchase property for a Mosque in New York City with tax-payer money! A WIN-WIN-WIN for ALL concerned!
Wall Street is just blocks from 51 Pork Place and the WALL, hence the name Wall Street, to prevent the pigs that were roaming, eating, defecating, and dying on land where Muslims want to build another Conquest Mosque.
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf’s Ground Zero Mosque will be built on soil, ‘IF’ at all, that was owned by a Dutch Farmer where pigs and other unclean animals lived! It was also the place for slaughtering pigs and a graveyard for all of the unclean and diseased animals. I’m just saying.
Appleby| 9.15.10 @ 7:40AM
This character needs to UNDERSTAND that there is a lot more to America than the Beltway and Manhattan. He also needs to watch some of those old movies when the townsfolk appear with the torches and pitchforks.
And like the Muslims of the GTA after 9/11/01, he needs to UNDERSTAND that not only is every American armed, including the guy standing next to him, but that we are armed with something he and his thugs will never grasp, much less UNDERSTAND: the knowledge that once we Americans hear LETS ROLL! we do. We ALL do.
And as Woody Allen once observed, the best way to survive a bomb is not to be there when it goes off.
pineapple1| 9.15.10 @ 8:22AM
AMEN!!
Eric Cartman| 9.15.10 @ 9:14AM
DITTO! Appleby. The elite have all these great plans, but the American people just keep getting in the way.
Louis Jenkins| 9.15.10 @ 8:23AM
I glad to see Taqua' alive and well. We cannot trust this person, and I'm being generous. Lie any time you're addressing a non-believer. Wait until the mosque is finished and in business. Then you will truly see the skull-duggery these heathens are capable of. No GZ mosque, no Muslims. Wise up Americans.
Dan Hirsch| 9.15.10 @ 9:25AM
That Imam Rauf's faith suggests he lie to non-believers has not been denied - even denied, it's still true, it's in their precious book.
That the people of New Jersey are waking up to him is made obvious by this morning's reports that he is being evicted for non-payment of rent. Eventually someone will figure out that he has significant legal liabilities based on the condition of his rental properties, his past due real estate taxes, and his questionable filings as a mosque weekly serving 500 worshipers in a one-bedroom NYC apartment.
The best way for this agent of evil to go down is little bit at a time so that his rage expresses itself while the microphones are still on and all of the world can hear him.
The Pentecostal Florida pastor with his book of matches and stack of Korans did more to expose Islam for the religion it is and how absolutely comfortable the 'ruling class' has become with a religion that believes, 'If you do not do what we say, we have to kill you.'
Thank you, God!
Stephanie| 9.15.10 @ 1:09PM
Dan, I believe that was the developer that was evicted, not Rauf. Has their cash source perhaps seen the writing on the American wall that we won't stand for their "community center" to be built within a stones throw of "hallowed ground? Where the souls of those slaughtered by their bretheren still linger?
I think we need to go the way of Australia who just this week told the muslims, NO SHARIA LAW IN OUR COUNTRY. If you cannot assimilate in this country and live by OUR laws, then leave.
Jeremiah| 9.15.10 @ 9:37AM
One quibble, Mr. Goldstein: The Catholic Newspaper in Malaysia did not 'correctly' use the word "Allah" for God. Now if they had used the word "Allah" for Satan, that would have been correct.
Stephanie| 9.15.10 @ 10:41AM
:-)
TR| 9.15.10 @ 1:15PM
Correct Jeremiah.
Even a minimal search of factual history reveals that "allah" is a pagan moon-god, used by the pedophile "prophet" Mohammed, to unite the nomadic tribes into followinf his version of paradise.
"allah" is no more the One True God, than it is to call a cat a motorboat. The koran, the instruction manual of intolerance, is a scourge on the Earth.
But we Christians have an unhidden secret - we win in the end.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 1:48PM
Nice to see others agreeing with me. But where's Timmy*? He ought to be condemning you for hate. However, the truth really is that the god of Islam is NOT the God of the Bible!
Jesus Christ is Lord.
Amen!
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 2:38PM
Yo Margie , I'm up here in New York City building a Catholic Church at 52 Park Avenue ,Ya Anti-Catholic Crank .
Hey Al hand me another brick .
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 3:19PM
I hear your rock calling you, Timmy* It's time to go crawl back under it.
Your Religion sure has borne one filthy creep.
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 3:24PM
Tell It To Hubby Ya Anti-Catholic Piece Of Crap .
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 3:25PM
Jesus Christ is Lord.
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 3:28PM
And He Has A Wonderful Mother .
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 3:31PM
"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time." 1 Tim. 2:5 & 6.
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 3:57PM
"As a practical matter, I know of no Protestant church which uniformly rejects subordinate
mediation. Intercessory prayer, missionary work, preaching, evangelizing, crusades, and Bible
studies are all forms of subordinate mediation. They are widely employed by Protestant churches.
It is also an admirable practice among Protestant churches to have active prayer lines. Are we to
believe that these same brothers and sisters are no longer concerned with those struggling and
suffering on earth once they are in heaven? Therefore we shouldn't pray to them, asking them to
intercede for us. Where does the Bible teach that?"
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 4:43PM
If you're a Christian you want to be Biblical. It is my duty (and honor) to believe and proclaim that God's intent and plan for mankind are written therein.
"For He has made known to us in all wisdom and insight the mystery of His will, according to His purpose which He set forth in Christ as a plan for the fulness of time, to unite all things in Him, things in Heaven and things on earth." Eph. 1: 9 & 10.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 3:33PM
s/b "Mediator between God and men..""
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 3:21PM
Oh and p.s.
Jesus Christ is Lord. And the god of the Koran is NOT the God of the Bible.
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 3:27PM
Oh and p.s.
Allah says Hi Margie !
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 3:29PM
Jesus Christ is Lord.
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 3:36PM
Well there Margie The Anti-Catholic Crank Lady , We Catholics Already Figured That Out Long Ago !
We're Glad Ya Caught Up With Us .
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 3:39PM
"Yet the Most High does not dwell in houses made with hands; as the prophet says,'Heaven is My throne, and earth My footstool. What house will you build for Me, says the Lord, or what is the place of my rest?" Acts 7:48 & 49.
You think because you belong to a Religion you serve God? Yet you malign and lie and threaten physical harm?
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 4:01PM
" The same Holy Spirit who inspired verse 5 also inspired verses 1-4. Let's see what these verses
teach. "First of all, then I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be
made for all men, for kings and for all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and
peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way" (1 Tim 2:1-2). "Supplications, prayers, [and]
intercessions" are all acts of mediation. Why does Paul "urge" Timothy to act as a mediator
between God on the one hand and "all men, for kings and for all who are in high positions" on the
other hand? "This is good and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to
be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim 2: 3-4)."
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 4:05PM
Now Margie , Ya can play Dueling Bibles with someone who doesn't know you're an Anti-Catholic Crank
Sheryl| 9.15.10 @ 4:27PM
Hey, Tim* and Margie, aka Sam and Diane, have your big kiss together already and walk off into the sunset hand-in-hand so other people can have a (fairly) rational discussion of the issues at hand! Geez.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 4:51PM
Sheryl,
I don't know who you are, or pretend to be, but you're lying. I take no other name to post here, as I'm not a coward.
And feel free to have that rational discussion here. Have you said a thing previous to this? I must've missed it.
Jeremiah| 9.15.10 @ 4:33PM
Tim, I hope you noticed in the above exchange that no where did Margie directly insult Catholics. She parried your insults, but you started it. I have crossed swords with Margie over that issue many times. But I noticed that on almost all other subjects she comments on, not only is she solid, but reasonable and persuasive.
A few months ago I went to a business appointment with a gentleman. The older fellow I was meeting with asked me which church I attended in the town in which I live (deep in the Bible belt). I sighed inwardly and explained I don't go in the town I live and told him the two Catholic Churches I often attend in other towns. And so it started. He began quoting Scripture to me. We argued for a while, but it was pretty good. In the midst of it I thought to myself that this was a really good man who took his faith very seriously - and though he profoundly disagreed with me, he wasn't doing the ugly insult I sometimes encounter. When it was finished he said, "You are the only Catholic I ever met who..." I braced myself for the horrible insult to Catholics I thought was coming, but how he finished it was "...didn't treat me like you thought you are better than me."
It startled me, and made me wonder how often we Catholics in defending our faith veer into the same sort of smug superiority that is so often directed at us. So I prayed anew that the Lord would help me never to fail to defend my faith vigorously but to do it in such a way that keeps the door open for reconciliation and healing.
The god described by Mohammed in the Koran is alien, cruel and monstrously vicious. That was what Margie was talking about - and she largely stayed on the subject after you came and started gratuitously insulting her. Never fail to defend your faith, but don't start a discussion by gratuitously insulting someone else. You close the door to any chance of reconciliation when you do. And don't we all need a little reconciliation?
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 4:56PM
Jeremiah,
Thanks for what you said about me. Ya know being solid, reasonable & persuasive. But no doubt I could use to learn from your example of getting humble through prayer.
God bless you.
TR| 9.15.10 @ 5:03PM
Good post Jeremiah.
In my personal opinion, and I have read a similar thought in the Bible somewhere (I read it daily, I'm just not good at remembering chapter and verse as so many people are) I beliebe that the technical arguing among and between Christians is very non-productive, I believe it dishonors the Father, and I believe that the internal arguing delays Christ's return. I have family that are Catholics, Mormons, Protestants, Evangelicals and I am grateful that they have found God and Jesus, without regard to the differences of doctrine that only serves to distract and divide. Satan/theDevil/theAdversary whatever you choose to call him rejoices when we argue among ourselves.
Jesus died for my sins which are too many to number (and all of mankind) and I thank him for doing so - while I remain unworthy of Him. Praise Him.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 5:13PM
"..but in your hearts reverence Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to make a defense to any one who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence; and keep your conscience clear, so that, when you are abused, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame." 1 Pe. 3:15 & 16.
TR,
Nowhere in the Bible does it say we delay His return by defending our faith. In fact I have seen you defend yours. You've said the same things that I have. Now when a particular human being is bound and determined to slander me shall I not take a stand? I will always do so.
Most of my relatives are Catholic. They are not vile hateful individuals who threaten me harm and seek to slander me because I speak according to the Bible. Arguing does sometimes ensue but nothing like in here. Some Catholics are extremely hateful. I will always stand my ground against them, by God's Grace.
TR| 9.15.10 @ 5:22PM
Margie, I love you and your input.
I didn't say that defending your faith delays His return, I just remember reading somewhere (and I'll try to find it) that arguing amongst ourselves dishonors Him. That's all. And it is mainly personal opinion and belief that it delays His return. I cannot claim to know God's mind while in the Earthly body, just my opinion.
I have defended my faith against the Godless religion of Islam, not against other Christians. Defnding your faith is important, I just decided years ago that I would avoid arguing among other Christians.
I am a Baptist, but I don't believe my church has all of the answers, it is a community of sinners who want to strengthen each other through our Lord.
God bless you.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 5:41PM
Well, God bless you too TR. But if defending your faith doesn't include arguing with those who falsely accuse then I'm not sure how it could be done.
"Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son." 2 Jn. 1:9.
And where is the doctrine of Christ? In the Bible.
Those who present themselves with false doctrines I will always speak out against. And then they will attack. So be it. "Iron sharpens iron." Pro. 27:17.
TR | 9.15.10 @ 5:26PM
And I certainly agree that you never need tolerate slanders against you without defense. The nasty comments from Timmy were totally uncalled for. Your defense was warranted.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 5:45PM
TR,
I didn't see your last post till after mine. Thanks.
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 10:20PM
Yeah Right Jeremiah .
Anti-Catholic Crank Margie Shares The Love on another Thread
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 9:37PM
So snake~ answer the question. Do you believe that your church replaces Israel?
Margie| 9.16.10 @ 1:47AM
You are a snake. A fact is a fact. So make like one and slither back under your rock.
And don't forget to take your anti-semitic Replacement Theology with you.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 4:59PM
I'm a Biblical Christian, which means I do not agree with a lot of the doctrines of the Catholic church.
To paint me with the vileness you do, well one day God's karma's gonna run over your dogma. LOL.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 4:49PM
Yes, and the verse says that Jesus is the only the ONE Mediator between God and man. You can try and twist it any which way you want to. At your own detriment. If you want to believe a lie, feel free.
Yes, prayers be made for all men. And Christ is the intercessor, according to the Bible.
"Consequently He is able for all time to save those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." Heb. 7:25.
Nowhere in the Bible does it advise us to pray to Mary or anyone else.
If you want to be a Biblical Christian you will be. If you don't, you won't be. Your choice.
Jeremiah| 9.15.10 @ 5:15PM
At the end of Job (Job 42:8) his three pious friends ask God for forgiveness, but God will not accept their prayer and instead says, "...go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him I will accept..." It is a divine endorsement of intercessory prayer.
Speaking of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob to the Pharisees, Jesus stuns them by saying that God is not the God of the dead, but of the living, thus insisting that all righteous souls are alive to God, regardless of temporal death (This is in Matt. 22:32, Mark 12:27, and Luke 20:38).
Later in James 5:16, the apostle commands us to confess our sins and "pray for one another."
If it is good to ask others to pray for one another in this realm, how much better to ask those righteous souls who have departed this realm but remain fully alive to God to pray for us, which is what intercessory prayer properly is?
You may not like that interpretation, Margie, but it is fully Biblical. So we are not arguing Biblical and un-Biblical, but merely quibbling on interpretation.
Jeremiah| 9.15.10 @ 5:18PM
Oh, and thank you for your kind words to me, Margie. May God bless us both.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 5:24PM
Jeremiah,
Yes and who is Job praying to on behalf of the three? He himself is not God, and is not acting as God. He is praying to God on their behalf.
Jas, 5:16: "Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects."
This is not treating other human beings, whether dead or living as if they are the Intercessor, Christ Jesus. Whom the Bible says is the ONLY Mediator between God & man.
So it is not a matter of interpretation. If it says there is only one Mediator between God and man, that's what it means:
"For there is one God, and there is one Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time." 1 Tim 2: 5 & 6.
One Mediator. One. Him. The risen Christ. The only living God.
Jeremiah| 9.15.10 @ 5:47PM
You are absolutely on target that Jesus is the only mediator. I have a certain presence in some rather large circles of orthodox Catholics - and I am profoundly devoted to Mary. But I am adamantly opposed to a certain movement that seeks to have Mary declared 'co-mediatrix' with Christ. It is a backlash against some Protestant insults to her, but it is a horrible misinterpretation of theology and Scripture.
On our disagreement, I think there may be a lack of clarity. Christ is the only one capable of forgiving sins. I can't forgive you yours nor you, mine. But we can and should pray for each other. When we do we are interceding on behalf of each other. Now I know (and have gently corrected) some Catholics who get it wrong and treat the saints as if they are subordinate mini-Gods. We are not pagans and should not act like them. There is one God.
Properly understood and practiced, we Catholics just have a wider circle of righteous people we ask to pray for us.
I will end by asking you, Margie, to intercede for me, that is, to pray for me. Thanks.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 5:50PM
Jeremiah,
Well since I'm still living, I can pray for you. And I'll pray to the God of the living. :^)
God bless you!
Jeremiah| 9.15.10 @ 5:56PM
Thanks Margie. I appreciate you more all the time. And trust me, I need all the prayers I can get! Also, pray for my son. He graduates from a state's police academy Friday (and at the head of his class, elected its president. I am so proud of him.)
TR| 9.15.10 @ 6:18PM
Congrats to your son on his wonderful accomplishment, I know you are a very proud father. May God watch over and protect him every day as he goes out to protect us from the evils out there.
Thank him in advance from an appreciative citizenry.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 7:06PM
Jeremiah,
You're becoming dear to me! Pray for me too, ok? Sure I'll pray for your son. I love the police. My Father is a lifelong police officer, and at age 79 he is still working part time as a Captain.
I understand your pride, indeed. My Dad was presented with a plaque for his many years of service a few years ago and I burst into tears during the presentation. Thankfully I was hidden in the audience and not up there with him. I just love him so much! He also is a lifetime volunteer fireman. And a Patriot. Though he's a lifelong Dem. He honored his own Father by becoming a Dem I think. Stuff like that runs real deep sometimes. I can get that. My hubby was the same, but since marrying me.. well, guess what!
Jeremiah| 9.15.10 @ 7:11PM
Regarding your husband leaving the Dems...never thought I'd say it Margie, but there's a conversion you affected that I fully support!
Jackson Brown| 9.15.10 @ 7:33PM
Wow! Papist Jeremiah and Holy Roller Margie cooing at each other. I guess Jesus was serious about that lion laying down with the lamb stuff. Not quite in the league of parting the Red Sea, but now I can say I have seen a genuine miracle.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 8:58PM
Heh. Well if you truly love God then it unites. Jeremiah loves God.
Andre| 9.15.10 @ 9:40AM
It is not being "tolerant" when you submit yourself to another under the threat of violence. If the reason to allow the mosque to be built is based upon a fear of how Muslims will react, and a fear of violence against Americans as a result of not allowing it to be built, then allowing it to be built is not being tolerant and understanding, it’s being bullied into submission.
I suspect that if a (apparently only hypothetical) Muslim group that currently and historically decried the violence, slavery, misogyny, etc. that pervades the Muslim world, wanted to put a mosque there, and stated that they were doing so on that spot specifically to show the fundamentalist jihadists that they were not being allowed to determine the course of their religion, that people would have no real problem with it.
You shouldn’t get your way by being a bully. And when you are the bully, you shouldn’t claim that others aren’t being tolerant of your fundamental need to beat the snot out of them if you don’t get your way. Sawing someone’s head off may be a political statement, but it is not one that demands a tolerant and understanding response.
Ken (Old Texican)| 9.15.10 @ 9:41AM
Appleby,
Great words. One problem. "Law abiding" New yawkers have all been disarmed...years ago.
It changes one's whole perspective when one is unarmed and the bad guys are armed, Okay?
And I will say it again. a hand-gun is only good to let you get to your long gun.
The absolute best personal protection for a woman is a 4-10 pump shotgun. The recoil is acceptable to my wife, even after five rounds rapid fired.
Under 40 yards, the knock down effect is even better than a 12 guage when the 4-10 is loaded with 3 inch shells. About $240 new cost.
darcy| 9.16.10 @ 5:04AM
Between the Taurus Judge and using .410 ammo or the Mossberg 500 with pistol grip, which would you choose if you could have only one for home defense? The Judge is easier to take along in the car; but it's recoil might be a bit much. Decisions, decisions.
darcy| 9.16.10 @ 5:20AM
As for the mosque, my understanding is that any pretensions to peaceful intentions and toleration flew out the door when the Imam in question had the nerve to raise the specter of violence if he and his followers didn't get their way. He showed his true colors and exposed the dark underbelly of the Sharia-assertive Muslims in our midst, which was a good thing. Wasn't it Sun Tzu who counseled that we should know our enemy?
davelnaf| 9.15.10 @ 10:20AM
Thanks for the information about Mosquer Rauf’s Malaysian excursion into religious ‘tolerance;’ this probably seals the deal for the fence sitters—liberals always excluded, of course. Rauf’s Janus faced personality and the obvious insincerity of public statements, not to mention the idea of building a mosque—of all things—near Ground Zero, had already convinced a lot of people that he is nothing more than a cheap scammer. But one has to assume that the malicious fun he has been having over his mosquecapade has not gone unnoticed by even the irrational minority, i.e., liberals. Rauf’s version of ‘Interfaith’ understanding has probably set real understanding back to the Dark Ages where, from his point of view, it probably originates.
stmichrick| 9.15.10 @ 10:35AM
The notion promoted by Rauf that 9/11 is an opportunity to spread acceptance of Islam in America as expressed by insistance on building a Sharia Victory Center at Ground Zero will never fly.
The only way forward for Muslims in America is to stand down until they, as a culture, have sorted out the difference between so-called 'moderate' Muslims and jihadists. And this includes public positions of accepting Israel's right to exist and unequivocal rejection of the banditry of violent attacks on the West. Denying the terrorist status of Hamas and warning us of the consequences of mosque rejection is evidence that Rauf doesn't deal in reality.
For a group without a 'pope' this will be nearly impossible. Imams like Rauf are not constructive.
WinstonS| 9.15.10 @ 10:50AM
The Greeks may not be the right ones to ask about building a strong national economy, but their cultural memory is strong when it comes to having lived under a Muslim yolk. As a reminder to the rest of the world simply look at the few Greeks that still remain in Turkey who live with the reality of dealing with "a religion of peace" and a people that are doing everything they can to ensure that no Orthodox Christians remain in Turkey. Where is there the understanding and tolerance there. As an American I won't infringe on the right for another citizen to practice their religion and I will treat all my fellow citizens with dignity and respect. The problem is how do you deal with someone that won't extend that same courtesy to you?
Average Infidel| 9.15.10 @ 11:54AM
Its called a shotgun, got it?
tdiinva| 9.15.10 @ 11:08AM
Let me see. The Reverand Jones has a right to burn a Koran but it is unwise to do so because it would inflame Muslims.
So I guess Iman Rauf should not exercise his right to build a Mosque at Ground Zero because it might inflame New Yorker and other Americans.
Oh wait a minute. They tell us he should build Mosque because we should ignore those inflamed Americans.
I am I slow or something?
Pete| 9.15.10 @ 11:15AM
Not slow, just racist and intolerant, according to the Mocha Messiah.
stephanie| 9.15.10 @ 1:12PM
Oh goodness! Mocha Messiah! I love it!!!!!
TR| 9.15.10 @ 1:18PM
Another great name for the affirmative-action President.
Samwise| 9.15.10 @ 11:10AM
Submitting to a bully only empowers him to demand more and more and more - as he grows in contempt for your weakness. I wonder what Rauf's real agenda is? Is it to get a mega mosque built for free elsewhere in Manhattan? He must have known Americans would never accept a Muslim Mosque near Ground Zero where radical Muslims slaughtered thousands? So what does he want? He and his wife have been very condescending and arrogant towards those who oppose the mosque...finally giving veiled threats about what would happen if he doesn't get his mosque built - do not capitulate to threats! If we do, there will only be more and more threats and demands. Meanwhile, let's get busy on completely the Ground Zero memorial and then rebuilding the Orthodox church of St. Nicholas which was destroyed by radical Muslims when they slaughtered thousands by taking down the World Trade Center...
Allah is NOT the Christian God| 9.15.10 @ 11:31AM
Allah is the name of a lightworker angel.
TR| 9.15.10 @ 1:20PM
"allah" was a pagan moon god. Read:
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 2:52PM
Arabic-speakers of all Abrahamic faiths, including Christians and Jews, use the word "Allah" to mean "God".
TR| 9.15.10 @ 4:43PM
I don't personally know any arabic speakers of the Christian or Jewish faith, so I can only trust you are correct.
However, if I had never done my homework and found the truth, that "allah" is a pagan moon-god, I would have spent my life in blissful ignorance, as they may be doing. As I have said before, I can call a cat a motorboat but that doesn't change the fact that the cat is not a motorboat. They may call the God of Israel "allah" but it is in misinformed or uninformed ignorance, or maybe they are simply fearful to call Him God/Yahewh out of the knowledge that they would be put to death by their pagan muslim majority that they must exist amongst. I mean, after all, we have seen what happens when majority muslims are in control - DEATH TO INFIDELS!!!!! Pay your dhimmitude or DIE. Not hate in my part, simply attentive observance of fact. Islam is a political system of intolerance toward anyone they do not approve of, to the point of mandatory death according to their "holy book" the koran. Their religion says so, not mine.
God bless you.
TR| 9.15.10 @ 4:46PM
sorry, bad spelling. Should be Yahweh not Yahewh.
RCV| 9.15.10 @ 6:14PM
Allah is simply the Arabic word meaning "God" and so used even by Arabs who are Christians.
TR| 9.15.10 @ 6:23PM
Wrong. Again reference
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/moongod.htm
"allah" is a pagan moon god. Not the God of the Bible. You may call it what you wish, but the facts are the facts. Islam is a political perversion passed off as a mainstream religion. It is a violent intolerant death cult, and when the cr*p hits the fan soon, the whole world will know the truth about them. There are no moderates in islam, as witness by the complete and utter silence about the atrocities committed in the name of the moon god.
Tim*| 9.15.10 @ 9:45PM
Allah is used by Arabs of all Abrahamic faiths, including Mizrahi Jews, Baha'is and Eastern Orthodox Christians, in reference to God.
Margie| 9.15.10 @ 8:56PM
What RCV~ no accusations of "hate?" You've come across another Christian. A Biblical one. No hate card? Wow.
GENE HAUBER| 9.15.10 @ 11:42AM
"RAUF" IS THE SOUNG SOMEONE WHO IS PUKING MAKES; LET'S GET THIS PUKE OUT OF OUR LIVES AND FLUSH HIM AND HIS MOSQUE DOWN THE CRAPPER.
OUT OF GZ, OUT OF NY, OUT OF AMERICA
Oldefarte| 9.15.10 @ 11:45AM
Great editorial, Aaron! The situation as I see it is that NO MUSLIMS are willing to stand up and denounce this radicalism within its ranks, and therein lies the problem. The resulting appearance [possibly inaccurate] is that ALL MUSLIMS agree with this violence within their ranks, otherwise they would voice opposition or perform actions necessary to defeat/end it. Is Islam a radical/violent movement [religion] becomes the real question that only Muslims can answer!!!!
Irish22| 9.15.10 @ 4:14PM
Perhaps moderate Muslims understand that they will be subjected to the same intolerance . . . and violence
NavyBrat | 9.15.10 @ 1:23PM
Wanna hear a first hand account of Muslim "tolerance" in the Religion of Peace:
Watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcMmybqItu0
Jim O'Brien| 9.15.10 @ 2:01PM
Nazi rule was not an acceptable outcome, and neither is Islamic rule. Live free or die.
dw| 9.15.10 @ 4:54PM
As long as we raise our heads and expose our throats to these peaceful muslims they will not hurt us. So we must allow them to build mosques where ever and when ever they want and we should probably go ahead and pay for them as well.
Understanding, translated from arabic means, understand we will do violence towards you if we are not appeased.
VBMax| 9.15.10 @ 5:52PM
People keep saying that the Imam has the right to build his mosque. I don't believe he does since any mosque is a center for treason and sedition against America.
Jim O'Brien| 9.15.10 @ 6:25PM
They want to replace our Constitution with Islamic "religious" (aka barbaric) law. Muslims reject secular law, and want to create theocracy. Nothing could be more subversive.
Impeach Don't Wait| 9.15.10 @ 7:52PM
They used to go after subersives, didn't they? Remember the House Un-American Activities Committee (HUAC) going after Communists? Seems now it's okay to coddle subversives as long as it's called "religion". Since we allow freedom of religion you'd think someone woulda had the forethought to define what an acceptable "religion" IS and what it ISN'T... before letting anybody and everybody into our borders. How many of us would accept an influx of people who claim their worship of God requires human sacrifice? No way, right? Well, why accept people whose "religion" clearly seeks to subvert national law, subjugate nonbelievers, and has conquest as its ultimate goal? Are we crazy? While the next American "revolution" should set us back on track with what "constitutionality" means, it also needs to explore the need for more clearly defining some terms. "Freedom of worship" is proving to be a little too permissive.
Yosemeti Sam| 9.16.10 @ 1:37AM
" ... Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf can build the Ground Zero Mosque...."
Yeah, like when, um - pigs fly!
gary siebel| 9.16.10 @ 1:44AM
The history of Catholicism and the history of Islam are both drenched in blood, and the Constantinians, who demand Jesus is God, have been just as bad -- just ask native Americans. The difference between Islam and Christianity is that the latter have been brought under the heel of civil government, civil law, and civil rights. Christianity recognizes human rights. So far, Islam does not.
My only objection to the mosque is that it's location automatically makes it appear to be a shrine to the hijackers in most of the middle -east. Shrines are usually location based, and this would be just 600 feet from the tomb of the martyrs who died in jihad -- in other words, as close as they can possibly place it to their tomb. It will therefore be used as a selling point to encourage further acts of martyrdom (violence) because not only do you get doe eyed virgins and green, well watered gardens in Paradise, you also get a shrine at the place you committed your atrocity. We do not need to provide further encouragement to terrorists, hence the shrine can be legitimately denied permits on the grounds it will put public safety at risk. Move the location and the shrine aspect disappears, as do the objections.
Rauf is very lilely a pawn in a larger game. The US gov already uses him as a tool, so why not others, too?
Jim O'Brien| 9.16.10 @ 2:52PM
Mosques are outposts of Islam. Somewhat like the Soviet Politburo or the Third Reich having offices in the United States during the Cold War or WW II.
matt jones| 9.16.10 @ 3:27PM
perhaps the understanding the author should focus on is of oneself. imam rauf has a right to build the mosque, but more important than legal doctrine of building codes, he has a responsibility to not allow the park 51 project to represent something more than it is. if one is imflamatory as in the case cited by the author through the use of the word 'Allah' for God, than that is a choice one makes to preserve the peace by submitting that this ideal angers some individuals, and so in the interest of not self preservation, but spirtual and harmonious restoration, make a simple concession: public use of the word 'Allah' would be replaced by some different element, term and so on. however in the case odf the park 51 project, there simply is no consession to be made. indeed those opposing the park 51 project make use of signs and shallow interpretations of history in order to state an understanding: the blame of September Eleventh Attacks are the fault of the Islamic religion. if Imam Rauf were to make a consession and move the project for that reason, or as time goes on quickly for any reason, it will be said that the aforementioned notion is correct, substantiated by a member of the faith that is the subject. simply put Imam Rauf does not have that authority, similiar to the divide of Protestants and Catholics over the ability of the Pope to absolve the members of the church, Imam Rauf is disputed in his ability to take responsibility even in part for the intent and effects of that fateful period in history. he may say what he wishes, and his intent may be to make a bridge to the American peoples to Islam, through project 51, but understanding is a two way street: if people refuse to agree, Imam Rauf, once again would be denied such authority. however, it is in the American spirit that Imam Rauf be givien the chance to proclaim his view and make his efforts, to examine the meaning of Cordoba, to explain the natural political and theological aftershocks of the proposed moving of project 51, and to try and make an effort. perhaps it is not the best effort, but based on the resilence and the adamant stance, it is a sincere one. ideological views of Islam may make statements of victory mosques, but if imam waters down the understanding then, what will radicals say- they have no qualms about obliterating their own, it should be understood. so certaintly Imam Rauf has shown no insincerity, and yet those who oppose the project 51 ideal have given a non too subtle altermatum, that in itself is specious, with a choice no different than the mugger or the bank robber: my view is such, either I have to steal and remove obstacles even people for that purpose, or I must blame Islam, and have no recourse but to protest. this is the actual 'understanding.'
Mark| 9.16.10 @ 6:55PM
n 1148, Cordoba was invaded and taken over by the Almohades, a sect of Islamic fundamentalists. The Almohades gave the Christians and Jews of Cordoba three choices.
They could convert to Islam; they could leave Cordoba or they could be executed. Amongst those who fled Cordoba was Moses Maimonides, who in adulthood would become a world renowned physician, philosopher and rabbi.
Amazing that the author could take the time to do this research, write these words, and completely miss the obvious implications of what he'd written, which serves not only to buttress Rauf's use of Cordoba as a metaphor for his goals, but also illustrate the center's importance. Bravo. (I'm sure one of the crackerjack intellects around here will figure it out if the think about it long enough... anyone? anyone?)
Tony in Central PA| 9.16.10 @ 9:46PM
Way back in 1981 I took a college history course about the Middle East. The course spent a lot of time on the subject of Islam. I quickly began to see that Islam, at least in its public and political aspect, has a very limited playbook. First come offers of apparent accomodation, which are soon replaced by intimidation only to be followed by subjugation ( which often involves decapitation ).
Things really don't change as far as Islam.
WAKE UP| 9.16.10 @ 10:33PM
Memo RAUF:
RULE 1: DON’T fly planes into buildings in the pursuit of 72 virgins.
RULE 2: don’t try disingenuous confusion now– we’re onto you.
WAKE UP| 9.16.10 @ 10:35PM
PS Memo MATT JONES:
It is NOT "Park 51", and it is NOT "Cordoba House".
It is GROUND ZERO, and the mosque is NOT going to be built.
Fredrick Ward| 9.20.10 @ 2:43PM
The Imam has made his message heard loud and clear. If we do not do what he wants then terrorism will escalate. Hm, I didn't think that really changed anything. So, if we do allow the mosque that means that they will stop the attacks? I don't think so. I still say, "Let them eat pork."