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Civility and the Constitution

By on 9.10.10 @ 6:09AM

A mass Koran-burning is unacceptable. Shouldn’t that be obvious?

I remember growing up in a conservative movement that, reacting to the rampant permissiveness of the 1960s and '70s, stressed the virtue of civility. Sure, you have the right to flagrantly offend your neighbors and your community. But should you? Conservatism used to answer “no.”

It was one of the cultural demarcations between the right and the left. If you were on the right, you generally thought it unacceptable to excuse boorish behavior with the utterance, “but it’s my constitutional right!”

Conservatives understood that self-restraint reduced the pressure for government-imposed restraint. We understood that with our civil rights came civic responsibilities. We understood that the United States of America was a land of tremendous religious, ethnic, and cultural diversity and that the peaceful coexistence of all of these people of such varying backgrounds and beliefs required tolerance, and tolerance meant treating others as you would have them treat you. In short, the republic itself relied upon civility.

Most conservatives still get this, I think. But sometimes I wonder how much the self-indulgence of the left has seduced our side. In the last few days, we’ve seen many on the right come out in defense of a proposal that once would have been almost universally considered indefensible, at least on the right — the burning of hundreds of Korans in a deliberate attempt to anger and provoke Muslims around the world.

How can we condemn the constant and never-ending anti-Christian provocations of the radical, secular left and then rise to Terry Jones’ defense on the lame excuse that he has the right to free expression? Or worse, that not going through with his planned incitement amounts to somehow giving in to the terrorists? No, it doesn’t. It amounts to a belated display of common decency.

I understand the desire to poke the radical Islamists in the eye. What could be more enjoyable than that? But really, burning 200 Korans is an act to be judged only on constitutional grounds? Would we say the same if a Florida imam decided to burn 200 Bibles? Would we even mention the First Amendment at all in that case, other than to dismiss it as irrelevant?

Forget for a moment the utilitarian arguments that a mass Koran-burning would incite violence against our troops and prove a setback in the overall effort to win the War on Terror. Those are true, but they need not even be taken up. The event is unacceptable simply because of its horrible incivility. Or have we come to the hypocritical position that it’s unacceptable to deeply offend Christians, but perfectly OK to deeply offend people of other faiths?

There is nothing to be said in favor of building an Islamic cultural center in a building hit by landing gear that fell off one of the 9/11 airliners. It is indefensible. And there is nothing to be said for commemorating 9/11 by burning 200 Korans. It is equally indefensible. Our constitutional rights as Americans are beside the point. Both acts are willfully insensitive, deeply offensive provocations that have no place in a civil society. Period.

About the Author

Andrew Cline is editorial page editor of the New Hampshire Union Leader. His Twitter ID is @Drewhampshire.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (404) |

K962| 9.10.10 @ 6:20AM

I agree, there is nothing to be gained by burning of the Koran. Its a childish stunt,done for publicity. However, these same Muslims who threaten violence if the minister were to perform the burning will not love us anymore if he doesn't.

Jonathan M.| 9.10.10 @ 7:16AM

This is what has not been discussed enough. The turdskin camel humpers threaten violence to Christians ALL THE TIME, and burn Bibles (and American flags) ALL THE TIME. It is time the dirty animals got a taste of their own medicine.

Eric "Muhammad" Cartman| 9.10.10 @ 10:09AM

I KILL YOU! You stinking Americans with your filthy pork-chops and BLT sandwiches - you should die for that! How dare you burn our most Holy Book, The Koran: The Muslim Manual on Stoning Women who Wish to Wear Eye Shadow and Camel Sex Manual! You should die for that!

And your flagrant use of soap and water - die die, DIE for smelling good!

You draw cartoons of our prophet! Die! You don't let us build our Islamic Outreach and Woman's Burning and Stoning Because She Mildly Disagreed With Her Husband Center! I KILL YOU!

You make a movie about how we treat our women? That gets us stabby! Stab, stab, stab STABSTAB! We stab you!

You like Jews?! DIE! DOG PIG SCUM! Don't want to see Israel and the Jews burned, bombed, gassed, beheaded, shot, poisoned, and nuked?! You defend them against our barbarous attacks over made-up history? Fly a plane into your buildings full of innocent people! DIE, DIE, DIE!

You Christian, infidel DOG SON OF A CAMEL! How dare you try to bring peaceful messages and medical help to Muslims! DIE KILL STABBY STAB!

You scum shall die for insulting our peaceful religion. You just show the world again how unbalanced you are by burning our Holy Book! How dangerous America is! I KILL YOU!

"Thank you! Would you like fries with your Pork-Chop Bacon Sandwich?"

Yes, yes. And a large shake, thank you. Oh, yes, and DEATH TO AMERICA! DOG PIGS!

Grzmlyk| 9.10.10 @ 11:24AM

Eric Muhammad, I would like to speak on behalf of all of the highly-evolved liberals and those conservatives who want so badly to be invited to the salons inside the Beltway:

I hereby renounce pork because you are right: For too long, we selfish, gluttonous Americans (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others) have been insensitive to your cultural proclivities. Please accept my apology for our porcine ways.

I apologize for the flushing of the Koran down toilets, even though it never happened. Because even though it never happened, we know that's what insensitive, offensive conservative Americans were thinking (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others).

I will point out that I revere the part of the Koran about sex with camels, because it is the highest expression of enlightenment for every American to have sex with whatever and whoever he, she, or it wants, and, in my experience with a certain camel, it is clear the camel is a willing partner (you should have seen the way it continually flaunts its hump). As a side note, it is now legal in Vermont for humans and camels to marry, so keep your fingers crossed for me.

I apologize for using soap. It's so culturally insensitive and ethnocentric to want to smell good (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others). And to use hygiene products that were made by "Big Toiletry," which sadistically destroys the planet's resources, raping our fragile, oh-so fragile Mother Earth and polluting the air She breathes in its capitalist pig desire for evil profits - is also unforgiveable. Put me down for at least 100 lashes (well, not me, because I'm enligtened, but the others).

I apologize for our once-unshakeable support of Israel (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others). These bastards, these interlopers, these squatters on Palestinian land should be eradicated from the planet and, while I'm concerned about the environmental impact of an Iranian Nuke wiping Isreal off of the map, I admit that it's a net gain, because the Jews are the cause of all evil in the world. Please feel free to blow up a Jewish family or two in my name.

I apologize for bringing medical aid and support for oppressed Muslims everywhere (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others). Of course it is the will of Allah that those who aren't strong enough must make room for those who are. Allah be praised, Obamacare will drive that lesson home shortly.

I apologize for living under what used to be known as The United States Consititution (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others). Henceforth, my descendents, in order to please you and make up for that whole Western Civilization thing in which white people did nothing but oppress woman, gays and people of color wantonly (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others), shall live under Sharia.

As for me, I now offer all of our throats for you to slit (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others) because my people have been wicked and I can think of no greater ecstasy than to prostrate myself (well, not me, because I'm enlightened, but the others) before you, the noble savage, to whom our culture owes so much.

On second thought, see that guy over there? Why don't you start with him? I'm told he's a Tea Party guy.

Eric "Muhammad" Cartman| 9.10.10 @ 2:59PM

Very good, infidel Grzmlyk! You renounce very well! Most Americans treat me as if we are at a drive thru window! That we are not big deals. Well, WE ARE BIG DEALS!

So this is good you renounce your mean, insane country! But I see nothing about the cartoons. Do you like cartoons? Hmmm? Maybe you want to see more cartoons? Cartoons of our prophet Muhammad, hmmmm, Grzmlyk? Maybe you like to see cartoons of Muhammad with a BOMB ON HIS HEAD?! DO YOU? DO YOU? RENOUNCE THE CARTOONS RIGHT NOW OR DIE!

Vern Crisler| 9.10.10 @ 11:34AM

Hah, funny Eric. However, I think Andrew's point is that if we burn korans we end up being incivil.

Because Muslims vent their spleens at us, should we turn around and say to Muslims, Die, Dog Pig! It might be nice and satisfying, but hardly civil. Do we want to be as bad as leftists?

L. Ross| 9.10.10 @ 11:52AM

Frankly, on this issue, I would like to teach them a lesson on how to be uncivil. For pity's sake, if I buy a book, I can burn it. It's my property. This is America. Maybe it's time to fire up that website I've been dreaming of. PissOnTheKoran.com. Nothing but pictures of me, urinating all over the holy koran.

Grzmlyk| 9.10.10 @ 11:55AM

No. We want to DEFEAT the leftists. And the Islamists.

Civility has no place in war, and in case you haven't noticed, this isn't about winning the heats and minds of Islam from a global perspective.

You cannot win a war by being polite to the enemy. One day - too late - we will learn this very hard lesson.

And then no one will give a damn if we were sufficiently polite as the enemy slit our throats because we won't be around to write the history books..

Texas Mom| 9.10.10 @ 1:21PM

I am tired of the threats from Muslims; we should turn it around on them. I think we should take out an ad in the New York Times (if they would take the ad which I doubt) saying the next time a Muslim kills any American in the name of Islam we WILL burn one Koran, the next time 10 Korans then 100. When they kill the 5th American we put up a billboard of Muhammad in drag explaining that he was a pedophile. But on the other hand we promise NOT to do these things if they do not kill another American. IF they do it will be on their heads.

Vern Crisler| 9.10.10 @ 2:55PM

Hi Texas Mom, I believe we are turning it around on them -- Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan. Our military can do a lot better job of de-rezzing radical Muslims that we can as individual advertisers.

joli| 9.11.10 @ 3:11PM

I'm sorry, burn a BOOK in response to the killing of an American? Am I being uncivil if I say no, let's kill a muslim in response to the killing of an American, then 10, then 100... proportional response will not do with these people.

I'm not a racist, I'm a REALIST.

Eric and GRZ, ROFLOL!

Eric "Muhammad" Cartman| 9.11.10 @ 7:56PM

You are so right, Vern - INFIDEL DOG PIG, SON OF INFECTED CAMEL! When you Americans learn to behave better - DIE SCUM DIE! - only then will the world be at peace, praise Allah! PIG DOG FOOL INFIDEL SWINE! That is why we Muslims - SCUM OF THE CAMEL'S NOSTRIL! - nominate you to fly to beautiful Afghanistan - SWINE DOG! - to preach to us about the peace and beauty - PIG FART! - of Islam and the violent nature of Christianity! So come to gorgeous Kabul - YOU WIND THAT PASSES FROM A CAMEL'S RUMP! - and talk to us. You will be most welcome. Oh, yes - DEATH TO AMERICA!

Emma| 9.12.10 @ 4:45PM

I'd like to ask if the leftists want to be as bad as islamists. Or did I miss something....and the leftists actually have raised a protest about the Bibles that were burned (more than one, so would that be a mass burning) in order to avoid offending the tender little sensibilities of the murderous islamists?? Perhaps the leftists did protest on behalf of American military men and women who were presented as willing to lay their lives down for the islamists in the arab countries, but were prevented from having their Holy Bibles with them....perhaps the leftists did protest about that and I just missed it.

I'm truly sick and tired about making this about the conservatives and the Christians. The leftists should all be defense attorneys for murderers. Oh. I guess they are, aren't they. And the murder victim....scheduled to be a murder victim....fights back and saves himself.....and then....well, looky here. The murder victim who fought back and lived....is on trial!! Because he hurt the iddy biddy feeeewings of the murderer.

I'm sick of it. Thoroughly sick of it.

Stephanie| 9.10.10 @ 1:02PM

Hey! Don't talk about my BLT sandwich that way! I LOVE bacon!
You're funny Eric.

Alan Brooks| 9.10.10 @ 5:35PM

Eric, you are a pawn of the very Mossad that wants to use the blood of all Palestinian children to make their matzoh.

Ed in North Texas| 9.11.10 @ 8:23AM

Sadly I have to say that I am unable to determine if that is sarcastic humor, or the statement of some "Progressive" troll who might even believe it.

Eric "Muhammad" Cartman| 9.11.10 @ 6:14PM

Yes, yes - Blood Matzoh! Very good! Revenge Falafal- even better! With side of Headless Baba Ganoush! Yum! REPENT OR SUFFER THE BABA GANOUSH OF DEATH!

Alan Brooks| 9.11.10 @ 7:51PM

"Sadly I have to say that I am unable to determine if that is sarcastic humor, or the statement of some "Progressive" troll who might even believe it"

They might say it-- but unless they are retarded they wouldn't believe it.

Alan Brooks| 9.11.10 @ 8:00PM

...think of it: using the blood of children in cooking? that's straight out of Grimms' Fairy Tales.

Bill Allen| 9.11.10 @ 9:33PM

I LOVE YOU'RE SENSE OF HUMOR

Alan Brooks| 9.12.10 @ 1:22AM

The two main points for me are that Jones is an imbecilic old publicity seeker; and that even though many Islamics sympathize with jihadists, such is no crime. If hate were a crime, virtually everyone would be in prison right now.
Many Southern whites were in sympathy with Jim Crow, but that didn't make them any more responsible for lynchings than Rush Limbaugh was responsible for the Murrah bombing. There is too much of an attempt to say that because many Islamics are anti-American (which is correct) such makes them accessories to jihad (which is not). This is remote guilt-apportioning, attempting to make Islamics guilty of thought crimes.
True, Islam is NOT a religion of peace, but until someone commits a crime you cannot arraign them.

And defending an asinine old Pastor Jones doesn't help either.

Steve W| 9.10.10 @ 11:36AM

Scripture tells us to be "Wise as serpents and harmless as doves"

Maybe you could explain to us how this (childish) act is either, or how it is the act of a responsible rational adult.

Grzmlyk| 9.10.10 @ 2:01PM

Where is the wisdom in prostrating ourselves before a mortal enemy? In bending over backwards time and time again to appease them?

This is America, and as they keep talking about their freedom to build a mosque whereever they damn well want to, we have a right to burn Korans. It's called free speech.

Besides, its rare that anyone in this country speaks ill of Islam. Why, it's the spotted owl of the new millennium!

Look at all we're doing to show them how tolerant we are. Most of the mosques in this country have been built since 9/11. We now have official government recognition of Ramadan and White House Iftar dinners glorifying the wonders of Islam. Our judiciary is entertaining the idea of allowing Sharia law in Muslim enclaves.

Gee, if they slaughter thousands of our citizens once again, we're REALLY going to have some apologizing to do!

If only we bend over backward far enough to accommodate them, I'm SURE they'll drop that silly nonsense about world domination. Surely THEN they will recognize how nice we are and ignore their existential blood mandate.

The more they kill us, the more we redouble our efforts to ingratiate ourselves with them.

They must be laughing themselves silly at our moral vanity and utter foolishness. The don't NEED to perpetrate another 9/11. All they have to do is wait and whine and get the ACLU on their side and, in just a few short years, we'll gleefully hand over the country to them. Why, I'll be first in line to put my head on the chopping block - you know, so my executioner doesn't have to strain himself as he beheads me.

Alan Brooks| 9.10.10 @ 5:51PM

I agree about the jihadists and want them all executed. But the non-militant Islamics in America are better to be with than guys like Reverend Koran- burner. Go to a Southern Baptist church and they'll shove their bad religion down your throat, while an American Islamic might ask you why you want to come to their mosque, but otherwise will leave you alone.
There is little to choose between the two so, overall, I say a plague on both their houses of worship.
If you don't get it, what I am saying is: to hell with both Southern wingnut religion and the jihadists-- thy can all burn in hell together.

Sheila| 9.10.10 @ 6:01PM

How easily such blatant anti-Christian tripe comes from someone who most assuredly sees anti-Semites behind every corner. Little to choose between fundamentalist Christians and murderous Muslims? Then please, Mr. Brooks, choose to live with the Muslims, and leave this once Christian nation to the rest of us benighted (in your enlightened view) souls. Since, as Grzmlyk said, there's no place for civility in war, and I'm in a war for the future of this nation, I say to hell with all Jewish liberals.

Ed in North Texas| 9.11.10 @ 8:32AM

Sheila, how about "...to hell with all Liberals.", or Progressives if you wish. Why did you have to denigrate another religion, they aren't ALL political liberals. Brooks may be Jewish, or not. He may be observant, or not. Either way, you condemn all those who you believe share a religion with Brooks. That's fine, since Liberalism is a religion for those who follow it.

Don't be like Brooks.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 12:15PM

Sheila is a hater - a white supremacist who never misses an opportunity to spew venom at every non- WASP group she can think of. Hard to believe the likes of her are still around in 2010!

Alan Brooks| 9.11.10 @ 8:13PM

You know very well most Islamics are not violent.
Linking most Islamics to jihadism is tantamount to linking all anti- federal government protesters to Tim McVeigh and Terry Nichols;
or linking anti-abortion protesters to the abortion clinic bombers.
Now, Islamics in other countries, i.e. the Mideast nations, might be worse-- but here in America they are no worse than any other. If you visit a mosque in America, they leave you alone. Some Islamics in America may want to be violent, but they know one call to the police and bad publicity gets into the newspapers.
It looks bad on the front page of the Daily News if it reads:
"Islamic Threatens Mosque Visitor With A Knife"

Anthony| 9.10.10 @ 9:22PM

Right, southern Baptists are cutting off heads, flying planes into buildings, blowing up buses, trains and ships. Are you off your nut? Is it all religion you're against Alan, or are you only bigoted against Christians?

Alan Brooks| 9.12.10 @ 12:17AM

"Right, southern Baptists are cutting off heads, flying planes into buildings, blowing up buses, trains and ships."

Again, this is guilt by association, which was used after the Oklahoma City bombing in '95. At that time it was claimed the Right wing in America as a whole was responsible for inculcating McVeigh.
Today the actions of a minority of Islamic fundamentalists-- Wahhabiists and other renegades-- are not enough to indict all of Islam.
I personally don't like Islam much, but neither do I like Southern Baptism-- the enemy of your enemy is not always your friend.

Tim*| 9.12.10 @ 10:58AM

Uh Oh ! ObamaBoy Brooks got his Anti-Southerners ax out again .

Alan Brooks| 9.12.10 @ 11:52PM

But anyone can say "effete Northeast liberal" or
"Leftcoast faggots in Hollywood"
and get away with it.

The old joke: don't make remarks to strangers in Hollywood about queers-- because you just might be talking to one.

NotALibertarian| 9.10.10 @ 3:06PM

I would really like to know if Mr. Cline considers the Boston Tea Party to have been an act of civility.

Michele San Pietro| 9.11.10 @ 7:39AM

I agree with Jonathan M. I would be the first to condemn the burning of the Koran if done just for the sake of doing so, but Americans and Christians have gone trough so many tons of gratuitous shit in the last few years that I see nothing wrong with repay that garbage in kind just for once.

Booger| 9.10.10 @ 8:07AM

If a church (or any other group of citizens) had elected to publicly burn 200 copies of Mein Kampf during WWII, would anyone here have objected? If a group of citizens during the cold war had protested the Soviets by burning 200 copes of Das Kapital, would the writers for the American Spectator have suffered such anguish as they do now? If protesters in Taiwan had burned 200 copies of Mao's Little Red Book, would anyone even notice? Grow a spine. If you continue to act like a bunch of dhimmis than soon enough you will be.

Sheila| 9.10.10 @ 9:48AM

Well said, Booger. As Cline notes, back before population replacement, it used to be common knowledge that the public weal meant controlling oneself as opposed to the government imposing control unilaterally. However, with our increasing "diversity" and government-funded exhibits like "piss Christ" and the elephant dung-covered Virgin Mary, now only conservatives are implored to control themselves, while everyone else's misconduct is endorsed as natural to their "culture." Sorry, Mr. Cline; don't tell me what is unseemly, Sir, when you are a dhimmi. That is unseemly. Tribalism + democracy + stupidity = racist idiocracy. Decline and fall.

Steve W| 9.10.10 @ 11:37AM

apples and oranges

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 1:10PM

You are right on target, Booger. I am against pedophiles. Does that make me an anti-pedophile bigot. I am against rape. Does that make me an anti-rapist bigot? I am against neo-nazis. Does that make me an anti-nazi bigot?

Each of these are rational choices to oppose an active evil force. Either moderate Muslims can take control of their religion or it needs to be wiped from the face of the planet. It advocates the murder of innocents who are of any other faith - and the even quicker murder of any poor Muslims caught in its clutches who object.

Islam is run by savage barbarians and the violence will not cease until they have seen the error of their ways by the force of our arms or are wiped from the planet.

Israeli children are murdered. Ordinary Muslims in the Middle East have celebrations rejoicing in the savagery and make heroes of the murderers. ON 9/11 ordinary Muslims were dancing in the streets in celebration of the murders.

I think our oh-so-sensitive ruling class has missed something important. Most Muslims came here to escape the brutal tyranny of the leaders of their faith. And here we are couseling tolerance and, thus, empowering the very monsters they came to escape. Islam is the implacable enemy of freedom anywhere. The only way to end this is to defeat the leaders.

Alan Brooks| 9.12.10 @ 12:43AM

By burning Korans, Jeremiah? how does that defeat the leaders?

Alan Brooks| 9.12.10 @ 12:47AM

...I'm not writing you yourself are advocating Koran- burning, Jeremiah; still, many bloggers at AS are letting the 9-11 anniversary, and the proposed mosque, cloud their judgment.

Grzmlyk| 9.10.10 @ 10:23AM

You know, when I first heard about this I thought the minister was some kook who was seeking publicity. And he may be.

In addition, I personally know a few Muslims who are nice people, transplanted from the old Yugoslavia during the 1990s, and they are decent, hardworking AMERICANS. It pains me to think that we might diss their religion.

However.

When I hear fatuous bullshit like, "it would be willfully insensitive" and "deeply offensive," as an argument to stop the burning of the Korans, my conservative blood boils. Yeah, it would. And???

Aren't you quoting from the ACLU's playbook, there, Andrew? This is AMERICA, isn't it? How about the myriad bibles that are burned as a matter of course? How about the daily onslaught of Christianity? How about the old cross in the jar of urine? The elephant dung on a portrait of the Virgin Mary?

What's your stand on the Danish cartoons' depiction of Muhammad that so offended Muslims a few years ago? Should the entire West cave into Islam's demands the Muhammad never be depicted? Where do you draw the line on free speech? The Koran burning is a needless provaction, but the cartoons weren't?

Well, thanks, Andrew, for citing the new and improved Liberal Constitution, whose first "right" in "The Bill of Rights 2.0" is that "You have the right never to be offended by anything anyone else does, particularly if you are a member of a victim group."

Now that I've heard far too many asinine conservatives prate on about how "insensitive" this act is (it's always secretly fun to flex those incipient liberal muscles, isn't it?), and that we have an obligation to always play nice, even as the scimitar is heading for our throats, I have no hope for a resurgence of conservative sanity in this country. Once again, conservatives accept the argument laid out by liberalism on its face.

And when I see the handwringing among those on the right - including General Petraeus - about how, oh no! this will make those who hate us and want to kill us hate us and want to kill us even more, I say this: BURN, BABY BURN.

God forbid we piss off the enemy. When are we going to wake up to the fact that being nice to "moderate Muslims" ain't gonna get us diddly squat? Don't you think they are considered apostatess in the eyes of the emerging global fundamentalist Islamic culture? In case you haven't noticed, we aren't going in the direction of the moderates. And being nice to them is, as Bin Laden said, only an admission that we are the weak horse.

If we had gone so far to win the hearts and minds of the Nazis, we'd be part of the Third Reich today. But no, we had to be mean and treat our enemies as enemies. Oh, the insensitivity!

Back during the days of Bush Sr.,when, as a cynical tactic to get listless Republicans behind the GOP, there was a manufactured demand for a constitutional amendment banning the burning of the American flag, I thought, wait a minute: That IS a first amendment issue. Personally, I hate flag burners and I consider it an odious act.

However, America's value is not contained within a piece of cloth. That cloth is a mere symbol of something that ought to be sturdy enough to survive the destruction of some of its iconography - offensive as that act is.

I have had it with supposed conservatives who buy into liberal dogma, and that's what Cline is doing here. If Islam is such a great goddamned religion, it can survive the burning of a Koran or two. Or two hundred.

As Ann Coulter says in her clear-sighted column today, if we are really worried about offending Muslims, why don't we just cut to the chase and covert to Sharia now????

BURN, BABY BURN.

Pete| 9.10.10 @ 11:01AM

I am not seeing mass demonstrations by "moderate" muslims against the GZM, nor have I seen any of them on TV talking about what a shame the burning would be but, oh well, it is a right we all enjoy as Americans.

I have attempted to broaden out my thinking about this, but I still can't see any reason to back off and see plenty of reasons to move forward, if for nothing else to expose the other side. As others have stated, while it may have been a conservative hallmark to stay above the fray where these types of things are concerned, it has never been a conservative hallmark to talk about "cultural sensitivities" and the like. Frankly, we need to get down into the trenches on things like this. I draw the parallel to elections and systemic Democratic election fraud. Should we turn a blind eye to that because fighting it would somehow make us stoop to their level? Hell, no. This is an all out war for the soul of this country and the fires need to be fought where they burn the brightest.

joli| 9.11.10 @ 3:30PM

On the one hand, the minister is an idiot (for any number of reasons, but I'll stick with two). 1, he had to procure all those korans, and he did so how? Quite likely by purchasing them (or having his "flock" purchase them), which did what, exactly? Provide financial support TO THE ENEMY. Secondly, the sheer arrogance (or is it naivete?) he displayed by imagining that the mosque builders would agree to move the mosque if he simply promised not to burn the books is ASTONISHING! His cries of outrage that the imam LIED to him (gasp!) about moving the mosque, are disingenuous to say the least. I'm thinking he needed a way to back out, and this "misunderstanding" provided it.

On the other hand, in my black little heart I would have personally received immense satisfaction from seeing the image on TV of these unholy books burning.

Michelle Malkin posted an excellent column called "The eternal flame of muslim outrage". To wit, what DOESN'T provoke them to outrage?

Lesser Weevil| 9.11.10 @ 6:07PM

Right on, Grzmlyk.

Alan Brooks| 9.12.10 @ 12:22AM

Grzmlyk, burning the Koran isn't offensive, it is merely childish-- like burning the flag.
Only someone with the mentality of a teenage anarchist or retard would burn a flag.

Or a Koran

Eric "Muhammad" Cartman| 9.12.10 @ 11:18AM

You are so wise, Mr. Brooks! Burning the Koran IS childish - BUT NOT OUR OUTRAGE AT EVERYTHING! Look! A woman's ankle is showing! STONE HER! RIP THE FLESH FROM HER BODY! And look over there! A gay man! HANG HIM! THEN STONE HIM! THEN DRAG HIS BURNING BODY THROUGH THE STREETS! And what is that I see? Two unmarried people kissing? IMPRISON THEM AND GIVE THEM 100 LASHES IN THE PUBLIC SQUARE! THEN KILL HER! And what do I spy with my little eye? An foreign aid workers administering medical help to poor Afghans? SHOOT THEM! SHOOT THEM ALL!

And why do we do these things? Because of American's childish Koran burning! You make us do it! So thank you for pointing it out for all to see, Mr. Brooks - you're a peach!

Eric "Muhammad" Cartman| 9.12.10 @ 3:03PM

I forgot to add: Looky there! Huge ancient Buddhas carved into a mountain! BLOW IT UP! BLOW IT TO ALLAH! DEATH TO THE VIOLENT BUDDHAS! MAY THEY ROT IN THE ENTRAILS OF PIGS! Stupid evil Buddhas. There, I feel much better. Oh yes, and, DEATH TO AMERICA!

Michele San Pietro| 9.12.10 @ 6:48PM

Ann should really be canonized for the wonderful things she says. At least, there is some true American left. Personally, I don't give a damn for offending Muslims.

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 12:33PM

I disagree. This obscure Florida pastor is doing a great service to our country. He's exposing the goals of the Muslims to those who have so far been clueless. If the clueless ones still can't see the threats coming from Imam Rauf, there's no hope for them.

Stephanie| 9.10.10 @ 1:15PM

LouLou, how right you are. Rauf is a snake in the grass. He is in the trojan horse, which is obama. Our presidents refusal to call a spade a spade in our war with islam, yes islam, is bringing us closer and closer to sharia law. Maybe that's what he wants. I cannot believe that we are bending to the will of these towelheads. We could blow them to non existence in Iraq and Afganistan and yet we capitulate, kiss ass and try so hard NOT to offend. Why doesn't he get it that the muslims, ALL muslims want us dead because we won't become slaves to their idiology.
Read their "holybook" Spells it out quite clearly.
What has happened to the once great United States of America?

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 1:21PM

Stephanie, it's called dhimmitude.
Our ruling class has accepted second class status.
The Florida pastor has not.

Who would have thought that after 9-11, the Muslims would be calling the shots in the USA and our leaders would be kowtowing? And that our main concern in Iraq and Afghanistan is to "win hearts and minds"? That's an impossible mission. Meanwhile, they kill us with impunity.

megapotamus| 9.10.10 @ 4:15PM

Only in our modern age could the phrase, "Well said, Booger," be un-ironically uttered. Lurvely. Anyhow, as a secular person I am predisposed to dismiss Jones in vitriolic terms. I do not do so. Why? Because his vitriol is a tactical counter to the endemic, pervasive and apparently protected vitriol on the muslim side. I am not in favor of the koran burning. Neither do I oppose it. I actually DO support the Ground Zero Mosque explicitly because it IS a provocation to some people who need provoking. Whether or not we are in a war with Islam, Islam is in a war with US! Shall we shoot back? That is really the issue. If we were strafing the streets in Ramala whenever they celebrated the murder of young American servicemen these pukes might have a case but no, we endure that and much, much more. So burn the koran and tell the muslims around the world and here at home to kiss your ass. It is time these pukes got the treatment everyone else gets. And gets used to it. If not? Hot lead.

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 5:51PM

Hee hee, megapotomus, when I wrote "You are right on target, Booger" I thought to myself, boy, that's a turn of phrase I never thought I'd hear myself using. Heckuva a lot better than the Jihadists being on target, though.

Alan Brooks| 9.12.10 @ 12:26AM

' If not? Hot lead."

Only terrorists who are guilty beyond all doubt.
IMO best to treat Islam with kindness which, as the Bible says, is rubbing coals in their faces.

Margie| 9.12.10 @ 1:10PM

Treat the individuals with kindness, but the book of Death, why? It isn't human, is a book that directs its people to commit murder upon YOU ~ the infidel, and was written by a pervert who married a child. An insane warped individual. This is a free country and if someone, anyone wishes to burn it, then fine.

NotALibertarian| 9.10.10 @ 3:09PM

Boston Tea Party: Act of civility, or deeply offensive provocation?

Alan Brooks| 9.12.10 @ 12:40AM

Most intriguing comment is Joli's.
the Korans had to have been purchased by someone somewhere, which means the Pastor's dopes in Florida promoted financially the #1 Islamic book!

Pastor S.E. Nile

Margie| 9.12.10 @ 1:12PM

Yes, purchase it in order to send it where it belongs. The same place that the terrorists are now~ the Lake of Fire.

JimE| 9.12.10 @ 6:04PM

BE GREEN! Wipe with the koran instead of burning it!

CB| 9.10.10 @ 6:29AM

Yes...a questionable stunt for sure. A much better event would be to have a public reading of the Koran, so all of those who don't know could hear exactly what is written in it. There is zero tolerance for any other beliefs...and if you don't believe in Islam, the sentence is death. I would especially like to hear what the homosexual community would say about their death sentence that is proclaimed in this "religion of peace". A public reading what open up some eyes for sure....

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 12:34PM

Are infidels allowed to read the Koran?
The muslim world might not like that and might just start blowing things up.

BackToBasics| 9.11.10 @ 12:16AM

Great idea, reading it publicly, although the media would COMPLETELY ignore it. This pastor should follow your advice while he's at the tail end of his 15 minutes of fame.

Jones also did not properly understand the book burnings in the Book of Acts in the New Testament. The people there burned books that had caused them to be in bondage to such things as witchcraft and astrology. It was not done to be antagonistic to an outside group such as Jones is doing.

They burned books that were causing problems among the congregants themselves, not those outside the church.

I am all for promoting the Gospel, but I do not see how this helps members in his own church become closer to Jesus and better Christians. It's an extermal stunt and prop that attempts to diguise itself as strong Christianity but it does zero for the hearts of the members of his church.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 1:53PM

First of all you are assuming that you know this pastor's heart. Nasty. I don't know if he is trying to make himself famous but I do know that Obama is trying to make him INFAMOUS. Heh.

Secondly, they burned them because they were evil and by doing so it was a witness to the unsaved and many came to Christ because of this act. They did not read from them. And why would they? It would be giving glory to what was written inside. Instead they preached the gospel and gave glory to the Lord Jesus, and added to their number those who would believe in Him for eternal life. I say it's better to follow their example.

And if you don't see how the "Religion" of Islam and their book of death, read: "Kill the infidels!" (That would be YOU)~ if you don't see how it is a problem to everyone in the U.S., saved or unsaved, and how it deserves the same fate, that of being burned, then you just number yourself in with the opinion of Obama, the Muslim loving President.

stephanie| 9.10.10 @ 6:36AM

If 200 bibles were to be burned, it would be a non story. And this " non stunt" is becoming one as well.

KyMouse| 9.10.10 @ 9:34AM

Bibles are routinely destroyed when they are discovered in Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries -- where is the outrage over that?

I'm not for burning books, but I don't like the idea that we must ask whether Muslims will be offended before we do this or that. Maybe they could give us a list of do's and don'ts, and we can promise to follow it.....

michigander_sandusky| 9.10.10 @ 6:42AM

The Koran is a book straight out of hell, but I couldn't agree more with Mr. Cline.

Appleby| 9.10.10 @ 6:46AM

Why is displaying portraits of the Virgin Mary covered with elephant poo *art* and similarly descrating the Koran *terrorism*?

Why is anti-Catholic speech shrugged off, even if it is published in the New York Times, and anti-Muslim speech considered grounds for arrest?

I am against burning books generally, although considering the number of people who proudly say they have not read a book this year, most people wouldnt miss them much. However, I am also against treating Muslims as if they are made of spun glass by Corning, and treating all Christian sects like the rantings of crazy people, too. Could we have some parity in civility here?

Ret. Marine| 9.10.10 @ 6:57AM

Here is even a greater question perhaps the writer might want to respond to. Tell me why it is the media is allowing the muslim's to get away with and are responsible the willful destruction of the Christian Churches the world over and no one in the press including this writer, has ever held the islamist to account for their barbaric actions, nor have they ever questioned them about their involvement and demanded they answer for their crimes against other religions. The word dhimmi comes to mind. But, hey if you want to submit to the devil and do the dastardly deed, expect the piper to be paid in full with your own soul, and don't get me involved in your crime. To acquiesce to evil is to involve oneself in the act willful or otherwise.
Physiological warfare is part and partial of any warfare, including the current affairs of the extremes of any religion including islam. The word terrorism, is a tactic, its nothing less than an idea of warfare and as of late is gaining ground, right to and including the emphasis of this article. If you can't understand this and do not include it in our overall strategy to "win" this battle between the Christian Nations and the muslim hordes, maybe you should just jkeep your personal opinions to yourself. If you are not part of the answer, you are part of the problem. Civility has no value in war.

Adironcacker59| 9.10.10 @ 12:52PM

May I ask what would constitute victory in this war against Islam: the death or conversion of all Muslims? If not and if some type of peaceful coexistence with faithful Muslins might constitute part of this victory, then how could deeply offending Muslim people by desecrating an object that has the same significance to them as the body of Christ has in Christianity be an effective tactic? As a retired military man, perhaps you will explain this.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 3:47PM

The key phrase is, ". . . if some type of peaceful coexistence with faithful Muslins might constitute part of this victory." Peaceful co-existence would be victory - but it takes two to make peace, because you have to agree not to kill each other. It only takes one to make war. We may want peace, we may be willing to peacefully co-exist, but where is the evidence that they want peace? Where is the evidence that they are willing to peacefully co-exist?

If you read the Koran, you will see their version of peaceful co-existence spelled out. They define peace as existing when all infidels are either converted, enslaved, or dead. Assuming that we will be unwilling to either convert, or be enslaved, then that just leaves . . .

Grzmlyk| 9.10.10 @ 3:51PM

The problem is that moderate Muslims are not going to win the day within their own religion.

They will be considered apostates (i.e., infidels like us) and punished summarily. A few will flee to the west, but make no mistake. The momentum is with fundamental Islam, and we all know what its "divine" purpose is.

This conflict has existed ever since Muhammad walked the face of the earth.

Do you want it to continue in perpetuity? Is an entente possible? No; this tolerance of the occasional terrorist attack will not be the status quo moving forward. Not as we see Islam rise.

We assume we are the dominant power and, as such, the onus is on us to tolerate those elements who disrupt our post-modern, post-Christian, high-tech, decadent, materialistic hedonism. But don't you see the tectonic shift that's happening even as we speak?

As the Shiite Iranians go nuclear, the far more populous Sunnis will also go nuclear - starting with the Saudis. The emergence of multiple nuclear entities - for not all of them will even be nation-states who care about preserving their sovereignty - will obviate the West's already-waning power.

There are no easy answers, but, as fundamentalist Islam solidifies in the Middle East, spreads throughout what used to be Christian Europe and makes gains throughout Africa and the Americas, the fundamentalist momentum will accelerate. And so it's going to come down to a very simple question: Us or them.

Which do you choose?

You'd better choose quickly, because time is running out. Soon we won't have the luxury of choosing.

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 6:08PM

There are three options adironcacker:

1) The death of all Muslims. Neither good nor necessary. It presumes that all Muslims are Jihadists. Definitely not true. More likely, like the people of Germany under the Nazis, however they got to it, most are captive of an insane leadership class.

2) The conversion of all Muslims. Given the contents of the Koran, this is desirable but rather improbable. Just as there are a host of Christmas and Easter Christians, ther are a great deal of Muslims who are cultural Muslims - they have been raised in it and taught from their childhood. Many of those Christmas and Easter Christians keep a nominal attachment to their faith because it is part of their cultural heritage and tradition - a hard thing to break. And those Christians stay even though Christian leaders don't promise to execute them if they renounce Christianity. A host of nominal Muslims would undoubtedly like to hold on to the cultural trappings of their heritage even though they have no interest in violence. We must welcome and support them even as we did the defeated German people after WWII.

3) Agree to live mutually in peace. This, of course, requires either that both sides agree and live up to the agreement or that an implacable war be waged on the leadership. When to be a Jihadist means a certain death sentence and a removal from power by a much mightier foe, after enough of those leaders have been killed or imprisoned, a moderate Islam will have a chance to emerge. We must fight implacably until that happens.

Now as to civility...the old Ku Klux Klan hid in a lot of southern churches. We did not deny their right to speak or burn the churches they infested. But we sent the FBI in to find those who conspired or acted on their murderous impulses, not to show sensitivity to them because they were connected to a church. We shut them down and it was one of our finer moments. Where Mosques and Muslim leaders are plotting death to Americans, passing out how-to manuals on how to murder infidel children, shut them down and to hell with their sensibilities. Keep at it until the silent majority of Muslims feel sufficiently safe to toss the bastards out themselves. As long as we are playing footsie with Saudi Arabia, not to mention Iran and Imam Rauf, what moderate Muslims there are dare not poke their heads up - for the Jihadists will kill them and we will do little about that because to do so would be to disrespect 'sharia traditions.'

Ret. Marine| 9.13.10 @ 7:42AM

No buttmunch, the stay on their side of the tracks, i.e. middle east, and I stay on mine, the good ole United States of America. Don't tread upon my beliefs and I promise I won't come looking for every member of your cult and dispose of it with extreme prejudice

Nancy in NC| 9.10.10 @ 4:39PM

Semper Fi, and well said. Civility has no value to radical Islam...it's a language they do not understand.

Personally, I am sick and tired of this sick religion (ideology?) and their pathetic whining about how we dis them and their prophet of war. They need to put on a cup and get over it.

What's a few Korans being burned compared to blowing up buildings, maiming women and children, and attempting to hold the rest of the world in hostage? I can't pretend to know the Fla. preacher's intentions and really could care less. Why did we even notice? He's got more than his 15 minutes of fame.

It seems to me that our first mistake was letting so many of this culture into our country. I, like others here, prefer freedom over tyranny, and many of these folks are putting our liberties in jeopardy, aided by the MSM and the wimpy left.

This is America where we value the freedom of the individual to do and say whatever as long as they are not harming anyone else. Burning their "holy" book will not be the end of their world or ours.

Will| 9.10.10 @ 6:58AM

I think many Americans have been polarized about the mosque issue. I certainly would not at any other time condone the burning of holy books. However, I cannot say that the burning of a pile of paper and glue is in any way more offensive than the building of a mosque and "cultural center" on the gravesite of nearly three thousand people. The Iman that's leading the project has been told repeatedly that it's highly offensive to a vast majority of Americans, his backers (wink, wink, nod, nod) know it's offensive, but continue to cry about his "religious freedom" while making world-wide threats against Americans that stand up to it. Normally, civilty and deceny would prevail, and "someone"would help to remind the Iman that perhaps he should do his business elsewhere. Instead, that "someone" is bankrolling his fundraising trips and enjoying watching Americans stew about the disgraceful act. When a small-time minister proposes a considerably lesser disgraceful act, he becomes a "nut-case" and a cause for world-wide war and a threat to our troops in the field. How laughable! If the ground troops are threatened, step up the game, pull them back and bring in the heavy stuff. If the Iman want's to persist with bringing his Sharia system to America, then he's going to have to deal with the fact that people are going to resist, first politely, then with resolve. He may have support in high places now, but those days could and should be over very soon. We've all seen what's happened in Western Europe. Anyone who cares to can research the ugly history of desecrated Christian holy places, Hindu massacres, etc, etc. For me, and I suspect many others, Dhimmitude is not an option. Kindness should not be mistaken for weakness. Stop gaming the system, and live as an American, or deal with the bonfires.

figus janus| 9.10.10 @ 7:19AM

I agree with the story...however it has been my view that the Islamic faith is holding the world hostage yet again by acting offended. Van gogh makes a cartoon of Muhammad and has his head almost cut off in the street. But he was the one to offend. South Park cartoon wants to show Muhammad in a skit and the whole Muslim world goes up in arms.
Where are all the moderate Muslims. Millions are in the street protesting. Where are the moderate members of the faith. If we fear to lose the moderate Muslims to Alqaida or Hammas then they were never truly moderates.
Is this not a religion of peace? I keep hearing about the peace part but never see it.
I hear people say our soldiers will be endangered. Wow that is intersting since most of our soldiers overseas die from malnutrition and jungle rot....Oh no wait they are killed by terrorist Muslims. How many moderate Islamic countries are there? One maybe two. Turkey was one but since the extremest are taking control we lost them.
What is fair to one should be fair to all. Islam must realize that Christians deal with hate all the time. The clown guy going to church, Elephant dung Mary, Cross in urine. We should burn at east one of every holy book in to show them we have to have tolerance.
Lets do this and see how peaceful their religion is. I think everyone will see its a religion of hate and not of peace.

Pierce| 9.11.10 @ 3:21AM

Oh and do not forget the couple who where goaded by Andy and Opie into copulating at St. Patrick's Cathedral during mass. Now would anyone do that at a Mosque!

Jim O'Brien| 9.10.10 @ 7:23AM

Book burning is a useless stunt. The major threats to our freedom and security are: 1) Obama and his comrades; 2) Congressional Democrats; and 3) Islam.

no to obama| 9.10.10 @ 1:20PM

They, obama and his comrads, will use this to acheive some twisted new "law" to put us Christians in our place. Time to replace the First Amendment. We can't be makin' the camel humpers mad.

martin j smith| 9.10.10 @ 7:40AM

I think if you are looking for answers to the issue of "civility" you need to step back and do a little research on these issues: How can a Pastor of a Church of under 50 people have so much "power" over a nation of over 300 million. Who is this guy really, what are his motives and. Then there is this--you know if the media ignored the guy he would be the equivalent of the sound of one hand clapping. This case has some insideous overtones to me and I am not willing to make a judgement till answers for me are made clear. Look any to dick or garry can burn any book they want who cares--but its when the media gets into it Then and only Then it becomes a "story" but then again that brings me to the issue of the "agenda"
As for civility--well that is fine until you are talking about winning elections then anything goes. By the way we are going to have an election in November right ?

Margie| 9.10.10 @ 4:11PM

Here's my take~ Doesn't everybody SEE what Obama is doing here? This low-life is USING this pastor and what he wants to do (which I say go for it) to put us all in line. Even all of our conservative "leaders" are lockstep in agreeing with him that it is the "wrong thing to do." Give me a break!

How does it feels guys (and gals) from Rush to Beck~ to be actually agreeing with the New Obamanation? So now we don't want to offend the Religion of Death? And instead of this pastor being praised for an act of courage he is disparaged and mocked and called a kook? GROSS!

I'll take my example from what the disciples did in the book of Acts 19: 19 & 20.

"And a number of those who practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all; and they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord grew and prevailed mightily."

See that it says.. "so the word of the Lord grew and prevailed mightily."

Time to get some courage and some dignity. Time to stop cowering with Obama and the Religion of Death. Time to stand with those who have the courage to trounce openly these murderers and their Book of Death.

Ret. Marine| 9.11.10 @ 6:20AM

Amen Margie, Amen

Curly Smith| 9.10.10 @ 7:54AM

"Both acts are willfully insensitive, deeply offensive provocations that have no place in a civil society. Period."

I sadly disagree. The problem facing us is that we Conservatives, as your article notes, are civil while the rest of the world is uncivil. It does us no good to be the perpetual doormat. If I constantly temper my arguments and actions to avoid offending you then you may conclude that I'm weak. With my arguments and actions I'm appealing to your better nature, but you don't have a better nature - you're a bullying slimeball. Sometimes you must get in the other person's face and force them back to civility.

I also wouldn't characterize the "Pastor" of 50 congregants burning 200 Korans as a "mass burning". It's nothing more than a tempest in a teapot that was likely funded by the left to counter the Ground Zero Mosque uproar.

Tom| 9.10.10 @ 8:14AM

"It's nothing more than a tempest in a teapot that was likely funded by the left to counter the Ground Zero Mosque uproar."

I am not sure the left funded this - they are not really that clever - but the leftist press certainly played the story up to counter the ground zero mosque. It lets them play the Christians are fundamentalist card.

Ed in North Texas| 9.11.10 @ 8:51AM

"It does us no good to be the perpetual doormat."

Perfect commentary!

Bill Husein O'Stalin| 9.10.10 @ 8:02AM

I wonder if Mr. Klein and the liberal press and the U.S. government would object to the burning of 200 copies of Mien Kampf by Adolf Hitler?

The reason I ask that is that many people consider that one of the books that lead to a Nazi government and a world war and the deaths of several million people.

Would anyone consider burning that book offensive?

The reason I ask that is that in the Koran it states clearly that if a Muslim meets a non-believer the Muslim has one of three choices:

1. Convert them.

2. Enslave them.

3. Destroy them.

Isn't that similar to the Nazi religion? Is it not possible that because of the three Muslim responses listed above the Koran is representative of a terrorist religion?

If anyone in the United States announced they were to burn the handbook of Al Qaeda no one would care.

The Muslim religion is an out of date religion which requires it's adherents to convert, enslave or kill the non-believers.

At that point I wonder if burning a Koran is more then a simple protest under the First Amendment as you put it.

Jim O'Brien| 9.10.10 @ 8:33AM

The Ayatollah Khomeini once said that "Islam is politics or it is nothing".

Islam is not strictly a "religion". It's a political ideology seeking theocracy, where secular law is replaced by arbitrary and brutal "religious" law. This means Islam is subversive to our Constitution, hostile to our personal and religious freedom, and a threat to our national security. On that basis, mosques should be outlawed and the U.S. should be closed to Muslim immigration.

Others will say that Muslims are a "race", and yell "discrimination!" Well, Muslims are not a particular race. There are Muslims of various races in virtually every country in the world.

joli| 9.11.10 @ 3:47PM

Why, oh why don't our leaders get this?

Alan| 9.10.10 @ 8:05AM

It may be boorish for an American to burn a holy book. But it is the Constitutional duty of the President and his Administration to protect the rights of Americans. Instead, the perception (and perhaps the substance) is that Obama has capitulated to the bullies using the threat of violence against Americans to impose sharia.

This could have been a teachable moment if the President had said something like this: “Any member of my Administration or the Armed forces who commits such disrespect will be fired on the spot. But American citizens, however offensive, have free speech rights, and I will defend those rights and defy all attempts to silence Americans with threats of violence. “

Let’s clearly understand the message we’ve transmitted to the jihadists: the American government is weak, will capitulate, and will sacrifice our freedoms to the threat of violence. Now that the jihadists know sharia can be imposed by violence we should expect lots more of it. We know from history what happens when we appease facists.

The failure of the Obamacrats to speak a clear, firm defense of the rights of Americans is a disgraceful failure of historic proportions.

It is a dark day when an American is successfully bullied into silence and submission, and his government not only fails to defy the bullying but apparently joins in. It would be nice if once in a while the Obamacrats condemned the jihadist violence as loudly as they condemn perceived bad manners of red-state Americans. That they don’t tells us what they think about our freedom and rights.

Nancy in NC| 9.10.10 @ 4:49PM

Agree. the same disingeneous slime bag that brings up the Constitution in building the mosque near ground zero.

Jones has the same Constitutional right to burn the Koran as a dissenter has to burn our flag. It's foolish, but there's no law against being foolish. Personally, if you can't burn them all, why bother?

And then the two wimps (Obama and Gates) beg Rev. Jones not to do it because we might offend someone or put our troops in danger? Get a grip. Those barbarians will be offended if we don't give their camel the due respect, and our troops can handle the danger...that's their job.

If we had a commander in chief with the slightest bit of courage (or a pair), he would tell the stone age men to take a hike (or see a virgin).

Bob K.| 9.10.10 @ 8:10AM

Mr. Cline,
Where were you and the rest of the conservative press who practice self restraint and who are students of the constitution last year; when on Halloween a half baked Christian Preacher decided to burn versions of the Bible that he disagreed with? The British Press picked up on it!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/new.....rning.html

Your weaseling is embarrassing! By the way, what is New Hampshire's state motto?

Tom| 9.10.10 @ 8:11AM

"In the last few days, we've seen many on the right come out in defense of a proposal that once would have been almost universally considered indefensible, at least on the right -- the burning of hundreds of Korans in a deliberate attempt to anger and provoke Muslims around the world."

Really? And who exactly are these people? I've seen very little evidence of it.

Louis Jenkins| 9.10.10 @ 8:27AM

Well Mr. Cline, the nation you grew up in has changed. We're no longer a nation of civility, in fact, we've become the opposite. Unfortunately you cling to the old terminology and ways, and it just ain't hacking it. In fact, the muslims want us to remain somewhere back about 50 years plus, that would suit them to a tee. As far as our troops overseas goes, they carry guns and grenades, and much more. If they can't defend themselves then let's bring them home for some training before taking on another "police action." Maybe then we can see some results. As it is 6 soldiers died while Michelle was taking her Spanish vacation alone, put don't burn the Koran.

The good Rev. Jones has had the wool pulled over his eyes. I'm not surprised considering the antics of the Moderate Muslim bunch, but there is always tomorrow. The Iman Rauf and the meeting, we know that will bear no fruit. It's just a delaying tactic to get what they want. Seems the Muslims are good at playing that game.

Gov. Eddie Rendell has said he will stand with his Muslim brothers this Sat. It's kind of a stab in the back ain't it. And if all the government agencies are so against the Rev. Jones' actions, then maybe, just maybe, something is right about it.

Dan| 9.10.10 @ 8:33AM

Enough with the term "unacceptable." Stick to concrete language that says what you mean and don't tell me what is "acceptable" or not. What this article doesn't address is why protesters in the Middle East are burning American flags and not bibles. Isn't this a religious issue? We all know the answer is no.

Purple Lips| 9.10.10 @ 9:03AM

And William Buckley most famously called Gore Vidal a Fairy, and threatened to punch in the nose!

Havoc| 9.10.10 @ 8:41AM

But my rude neighbor, fifty years ago, had not burned down the Empire State Building. We are at war with Islam even if our betters in the ruling class haven't figured this out, yet.

Melvin| 9.10.10 @ 8:54AM

People, we have to stop thinking in a 21st Century rational. The vast majority of Muslims are by and large illiterate and never had anything of education other than what the Madrasah religious leaders had taught them.
Words that are devoted to political violence. Islam has three sacred texts: Koran, Sira, and Hadith. These three texts have 328,000 words devoted to political violence, and the New Testament has zero words.
The Sira alone devotes 67% of its text to jihad. Mohammed averaged an event of violence every six weeks for the last nine years of his life. Jihad was what made Mohammed successful.
The above data was taken from the American Thinker by an article by Bill Warner, "The Political Violence of the Bible and the Koran."
So we must see and somehow figure out a way to counter the lifetime of being taught violence is OK because Mohammed says it is. Young Muslims are taught this from day one and they go through their entire lives perpetuating this violent cycle.
I think this is why it is so hard for modern day Christians to grasp this fact, because from day one Christians are taught to turn the other cheek from violence and the term, "Political Violence" isn't even in the Christian lexicon.
"Well how come the educated moderate Muslims are remaining silent while the masses go an an orgy of political violence against the Infidels?" For one thing there is a definite hierarchy or rank structure within Islam. If a Muslim kills one or a million Infidels he and his family are treated with great respect and honor by the Islamic Community, a fifteen minutes of fame if you will. This is why we see so many highly educated Muslims as field commanders on the battlefield. They achieve great honor for them and their families, and since it is political violence against the Infidels, it perpetuates the spread of Islam to turn the world in a Islamic Caliphate.
This honor thing is exactly why all Muslims are so short fused and resort to violence, because anything an Infidel does is an affront to Islam.
Jones could have burned one to a million Korans the result would have been the same. Because, now Muslims all over the world are thinking, "Yea, you didn't burn the Koran, but you were still thinking about it." Look at all that we have done for Afghanistan treated these people with respect dignity gave them certain rights like women getting educated and they still fly from the hive en mass to attack anything that is perceived as American, even after thousands of Infidels have died in trying to give them those human rights.
"Well, Islam doesn't appreciate or show gratitude for what we have done for them." Yes, that is true, they are completely incapable of showing gratitude or humility of having our sons and daughters die in a Godforsaken 7th Century shit hole because the Koran, Sira, and Hadith forbid it.
The Koran, Sira, and Hadith are manuals for political violence and we have to treat and fight them as such. We cannot and must not treat them in the same context as the New Testament. Because if we do, it will be our destruction or subjugation as a free people.

Average Infidel| 9.11.10 @ 6:28AM

I believe me and my m-16 might have a little say in your last sentence.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 8:55AM

"I remember growing up in a conservative movement that, reacting to the rampant permissiveness of the 1960s and '70s, stressed the virtue of civility. Sure, you have the right to flagrantly offend your neighbors and your community. But should you? Conservatism used to answer "no.""

And what was the outcome of all that conservative civility? (A) a public school system which indoctrinates our kids into the amorality of those uncivil 60's radicals, while teaching them nothing they can use to get through life; (B) a higher education system which indoctrinates our young adults into the nihilism of those same 60's radicals while drilling into them that any other perspective is either ignorant, selfish, or downright evil; (C) an entertainment culture that has taken the debauchery of the 60's radicals and lowered it to ever greater levels of disgust, all the while glorifying such disgusting behavior; (D) a society so steeped in drugs and promiscuity and violence that our cities are often more dangerous than a war zone; and (E) a government which is now, in an era where this Country faces its most serious challenges in several decades, run by a bunch of 60's radicals and their progeny.

So how'd that conservative civility of the 1960's work out, huh? If conservatives had been a little LESS civil back then, a little more willing to OFFEND those who would destroy our country and its values, a little more willing get down and dirty and FIGHT for what is right, then maybe we wouldn't be in the mess we're in today.

Purple Lips| 9.10.10 @ 9:02AM

"And what was the outcome of all that conservative civility? (A) a public school system which indoctrinates our kids into the amorality of those uncivil 60's radicals,.."

Some say civility is for losers. I tend to agree. We need more Beavis and Buttheads and less David Brook's!

Sheila| 9.10.10 @ 9:52AM

Excellent rant, Big E. Wow, all the movement conservatives seem absent today and everyone else is hitting the bull's eye!

joli| 9.11.10 @ 4:02PM

I'm all for civility. I'm also all for carrying a big stick for when civility fails.

Purple Lips| 9.10.10 @ 9:00AM

Au contraire, Burning the Koran is about as offensive as dropping a crucifix in urine, or smearing dung on picture of the Holy Mother, or perhaps even as offensive as slamming 2 jetliners into the Twin Towers.

What Muslims here in the US must come to terms with is the legacy of such judicial dimwits as Justice Brennen, Earl Warren, and William O'Douglas (God, rest all of thier souls). For these sophisticated Progressives, issuing offensive actions and materials was not only a Constitutionally protected right, but is a sign of a maturing society. Even porn (I know it when I see it!) can be a form of protected free speech! Thus, 40 years later we have a situation where political speech is being regulated (via McCain-Feingold), but vigorous copulation is considered protected free speech. It's an anything goes situation.

So, all of you Muslims consider yourselves part of our evolving, sophisticated, nuanced society! Heck, Evangelicals have been carictured nine ways to Sunday, Catholics have suffered through desecration of thier Churches, blasphemous sit-coms, and Bill Marher.

I know, I know, Christians are a rather luke-warm passive lot. We tend to turn the other cheeck before turning the channel on our TVs. But, our elites hope against hope that you guys won't do too much damage. And if you intend to blow up a Mall, please do it in Fly-Over Country. After-all, most of the residents in Fly-Over Country gave us George Bush. That should count for something.

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 1:24PM

To add insult to injury, wasn't that filthy "art" funded by the taxpayers?

Nancy in NC| 9.10.10 @ 4:56PM

Indeed it was.

My grandson got in a fight on the school bus because someone called him gay. My daughter, the good girl that she is, told him that the next time he gets thrown off the bus, someone better have a shiner or busted lip.

Thank God not everyone is raising their children to be wimps or bullies. Too bad we seem to have an abundance of the wimp varieties these days.

Average Infidel| 9.11.10 @ 6:31AM

Careful there purple dick, we have many pigs in our area that are ah need'n feedn'.

Ned the Red| 9.10.10 @ 9:05AM

Well I'll tell what I am a gonna do. I am gonna buy one of them there Koran books and, and, and, put it on the bottom shelf of our bookcase, below all the other books. Yeah, that'll show em whose boss around here.

(If you’re familiar with "South Park" the above should be read in the voice of "Butters".

Old Soldier| 9.10.10 @ 9:06AM

I don't care about any of this symbolism B.S.

The correct thing to do is recognize the threat Islam is to our culture and society. Completely cutting off immigration from Muslim nations would be a good start.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 9:11AM

For starters, I am about as far to the right on the scale that you can get. You want to play jihad with the USA, I say line em' up & hand me the gun. However, I have a question for those of you who say yes to the book barbecue & here it is. If you torch the Koran, & base it on the actions of the radicals who use it as a tool to justify their actions, where do you then draw the line?? Can I then justify torching ANY other religious text other thatn the King James version of the bible as it is a false, evil deception??

Thomas| 9.10.10 @ 11:02AM

I would say that most people in America feel that the burning of a religious text or destroying a religious icon is offensive to someone. And, because of that fact, they are opposed to proposed actions of this type. But, that is not what you at play here.

Most of the population of the United States who claim a religious affiliation are Christian. Yet, on a near daily basis, Christians suffer persecution in the United States and worldwide and no one in authority seems to care. The Bible, other Christian texts, places of worship and the very lives of the practitioners of Christianity are destroyed and no one in authority seems to care. In fact, in the United States, the home of the free, the federal government actively discriminates against Christians. People know this. They follow the news and they are not stupid.

So along comes the preacher of a very small congregation in a small college town in North Florida who is going to burn 200 books purchased at a local book store. This becomes a national crisis. The media is all atwitter and immediately screams its outrage. The leadership of this country roars in outrage and fear. Large demonstrations are held worldwide denouncing this proposed action. Fears of violent attacks against the American population are shouted from the mountain tops. And the ordinary, Christian [and Jewish] citizen of this country asks, "Where was the outcry from my own government when Christian symbols were being desecrated in urine and feces in government funded displays? Where was my own government when Christian symbolism was banned from public land during Christian religious holidays by the government? Where were my own government leaders when it was proposed that a mosque be built literally within spitting distance of the site of the deadliest attack upon American civilians in history, an attack that was carried out by religious zealots operating under the auspices of their religious beliefs?" And the answer is "At the forefront of actively discriminating against Christianity and for that unnamed religion of peace whose members destroyed the Twin Towers and killed 3000 American citizens.

The Christians of this country, by and large, do not condone the burning of religious texts. But they are tired of the actions of local and federal governments that discriminate against them and yet kowtow to segments of another religion which have shown themselves to be hostile to the people and principles of their country. Their fed up. Their mad as hell and their not going to take it any more. That is the reason for the backlash that you are seeing in America today.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 11:49AM

You know, I was going to respond to Steve A's comment. I even started writing something, but the words just would not flow. Now, I'm glad I didn't, for I could never written a response as elegant and right on point as yours.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 12:12PM

There is a difference between understanding & justifying the motivation to torch these books & looking deeper to decide if it is the "right" thing to do. No secret that there is & will continue to be a joke of a double standard on issues like this. Book barbecue will do nothing but fuel the other side to continue their efforts, but it would sure feel good to see them get some of their own medicine. WE are the good guys though. WE do not act like savages, otherwise, we lose even if we win.

Thomas| 9.10.10 @ 12:32PM

If you look at most of the responses here, you will see that most have not said that burning the Koran is the "right" thing to do. Just the opposite. What you see in most of these responses is exactly what I said, people are tired of having their religious beliefs demonized and actively discriminated against by their own government simply because they, as a group, are not threatening to burn the nation to the ground. Burning a book is not barbarism. Burning a church, with the congregation inside, killing or raping a daughter for dating a man of another faith, killing a person simply for adhering to a religious ideal is. We , the United States of America, used to be the good guys. But, through their active discrimination of the majority of the citizens of this country based solely upon their religious beliefs, the leadership of this country has managed to alienate that citizenry. A Christian will turn the other cheek, as it says in the New Testament. But, sooner or later, you run out of cheeks to turn. You get mad. That is what is happening here and now. Its not about burning a mass produced religious text. It is about barbarous thugs being treated better than the honest, peaceful, law-abiding citizens of this country.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 12:57PM

As a Christian, how are you being discriminated against in America?

Thomas| 9.10.10 @ 6:44PM

Did you read my post?

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 6:51PM

Yes I did. Both of them. Neither mention any ways that our government actively discriminates against Christians.

Thomas| 9.10.10 @ 11:26PM

Read them again, then.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 1:08PM

Thomas, Ahhhh, no kidding. You are not revealing some secret here. Burn the books, YES or NO?? If YES, why? If NO, why not? Simple question. You must be a lawyer.

Thomas| 9.10.10 @ 6:50PM

Would I burn the books? No. Why? Because it would serve no purpose for ME to do so. It isn't going to cause militant Islamists, radical Imams or the average barbarian in the Middle East to change their minds.

What this whole situation, which was completely created by the reaction of the media and the U.S. administration, has served to do, is point up the Muslim world's penchant for violence and threatening violence in retaliation for any slight, no matter how insignificant.

Pierce| 9.11.10 @ 3:40AM

This is why I condone the Koran burning. This is the standard that this nation now enjoins in the 21st century! The progressives/Liberals have enacted the standard where religion (read Christianity) can be mocked & slandered at will over the past fifty years. Now when a constituency favorable to the left is offended, it becomes a matter of freedom of religion and some other kind of excuse. Not any longer! Barack this is the standard you and your friends have created. Enjoy the show. Lick it up Heather, Lick it up!!!

Majito| 9.10.10 @ 9:23AM

Does anyone remember that in May 2002 26 plo killers broke into the nativity church in belem and stayed there until they were given safe passage thanks to pressure from dc and the vatican? what did they do while there? set three fires inside the church, smoked inside the atrium, defecated in the back of the church all in the name of jijad...when are we going to stop this foolishnes about they being so sacred? what is going here is a bunch of yellows afraid of what they may do...can't believe sec gates afraid of muslim insurrections in afghanistan...you kidding me daddio? what's an army for? what would gral patton do? run for the hills like gate and petraus want to do? the enemy you bury not appease...americans have become soft and totally unworthy of this land...the republic is being destroyed from within and the only will that's left is to get as much dollars as soon as possible and the hell with the rest...i for one look forward to the day when the dollar is vanquished...need to go back to living in the open air praire to build some grit and intestinal fortitude...either that or die...never thought i saw the day when us generals will be afraid of what the other army may do if a book is burned...wow a nation of cowards indeed....

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 9:49AM

Majito, Let's say you are a 24 yo Pakistani male. Few opportunities, if any. You get your prayer rug out 6X / day etc. but otherwise have resisted calls from the lunatics for jihad & do not believe the USA is the Great Satan. Then you see a Koran barbecue in Fla. all over the media non-stop for weeks. There is a greatly increased chance that you sign up to play commando vs. US troops, which is fine by me but the bottom line is that there are now more wackos firing AK-47s at our boys because of a nut job in Fla. The pull in favor of the barbecue results from the fact that we have an ass kisser in chief as President & we want to collectively flip off the radicals. I like this, but the method is wrong. Let's just take the gloves off the US military & go kick some ass.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 12:09PM

If it wasn't a Koran barbecue in Florida it would be something else - a bomb going astray in Afghanistan, a brother-in-law dying in combat with American forces, anything. If we want that 24yo Pakistani Male to be less likely to pick up his AK-47, we need let him know, in no uncertain terms, that if he picks up that AK-47 he will die. If he then chooses to commit suicide, we assist him in that endeavor. If he loves life more than death, the burning of a copy of the Koran 5,000 miles away will not change his mind. If he loves death more than life, NOT burning a copy of the Koran 5,000 miles away won't change it either.
We cannot wage war on the theory that if we don't offend our enemies they will be less likely to kill us, that's called "appeasement." Look it up, its a got a long and distinguished history of failure as a means of conflict resolution.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 12:10PM

I tell my 10 year old every day to make her own decisions about right and wrong based on the values that she has been taught, to not let her peers make her decisions for her. In essence, you're saying we should let Muslims make our decisions for us on ANYTHING which they might find offensive, because otherwise, there might be more of them who want to kill us.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 12:47PM

E, Come on man. I could give a crap about some dude who decides he wants to go jihad on us. I say put em' in single file line firing squad to save bulletts. You go ahead & grab your 10 yo by the hand & go in the back yard & have a Koran barbecue & tell her why you did it & report back to me on that experience. You just know you will not actually go ahead & do it because deep down you know it is WRONG. I could care less about offending some lunatic Islamic terrorist. This is not the issue. You would offend the vast majority of non-lunatic Muslims & there is simply no justice there. Come on dude, you are better than this, I know it.

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 1:27PM

In the 50s, 60s and 70s Arab and Muslim agitators often committed some atrocity upon western infidels. Funny thing, though, they rarely messed with the godless infidels from the Soviet Union. Why, because they knew the Soviet Union would not try to reason with them but would wipe out a nice chunk of territory with a few villages in a wildly disproportionate show of force.

The question America faces now is how to deal with savage barbarians who treat all civility as contemptible weakness to be exploited. There is a moment in the movie, "Braveheart" where the English king considers sending his effeminate son to negotiate with the Scottish rebels. The king quickly dismisses the idea because the very sight of his son "...would only encourage them." Obama and the entire ruling class - including a lot of erstwhile conservative columnists - have encouraged Islamic leaders long enough. It is time to crush them.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 1:44PM

First, you need to brush up on your history concerning the soviet union and its muslim minorities. The soviets certainly had no problem with disporportionate violence in Afghanistan. Second, the USSR was often funding those arab agitators and was an express enemy of Israel.

Braveheart was a movie.

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 2:19PM

I am quite3 familiar with the history of the Soviets and their Muslim minority. My point was they DID act with disproportionate violence - frequently. You rather underscore my point by noting that those pious arab agitators were meek with the godless soviets and glad to accept their funding and brutal to the 'people of the book' in both Israel and westerners. Like all savage barbarians they cowered before who they feared and were militant towards those they did not.

As for Braveheart, of course it was. Funny how you lefties are big with the literary and cinematic references as seeing a 'deeper reality' when it emphasizes your point but it is 'only a book - or a movie' when it demolishes your point.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 2:50PM

It sure didn't work well for the Soviets in Afghanistan. The soviets slaughtered those savage barbarians by the bushel and still wound up losing.

Which Islamic leaders are we supposed to be crushing so that we win like Braveheart did?

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 3:26PM

No, it didn't work well for the Soviets in Afghanistan, which is why I put the original time frame from the 50s into the 70s. Up until the Soviets began to crumble internally, it worked quite well for them, though, didn't it?

And can it with the Braveheart business. I used the cinematic reference to illistrate the futility of appeasing those bent on victory. I could have easily have used the limp Prime Minsters leading up to Churchill or the pre-Vichy French.

Ask me another question when you can get past mere snark and seriously engage.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 4:49PM

Fair enough. I'll let Braveheart drop. Are you advocated that we crush muslim Americans? That's not meant to be snarky-I'm not sure from your posts who you think we should be slaughtering. If you're suggesting we take the gloves off in Afghanistan, I don't understand why that would be any more succesful for us now as it was for the Soviets in the 80s. Leaving aside the moral abhorance of indiscriminate mass reprisals, you really think that would be effective?

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 6:28PM

Thank you, DRed for the serious approach. I have made several posts on this and the other site about this subject today. No, we should not be slaughtering Muslim-Americans. Most of them are more captives of a monstrous leadership than we are targets of it. But our sensitivity to Jihadists empowers the radicals. I say we take a similar approach internationally as we did with the Nazis. We did not want to annihilate the German people, but we were determined to decapitate the tyrannical head of the beast that was leading them. Many Germans were caught between a rock and a hard place. If they defied the SS, they would be excuted. If they did not, they had to fight the allies. Had we sought to respect the sensibilities of the Nazis it would not have saved the German people nor empowered freedom. But we had to make it more dangerous and deadly to be on the side of the Nazis than the allies if we were to preserve freedom. When dealing with a determined tyrranous enemy it is a tragic fact that many people who would prefer just to live and let live are going to get caught in the crossfire. The alternative is to let tyranny prevail - and then the crossfire never ends.

As for America, I advocate the same approach that we used to shut down the Ku Klux Klan, as I recently described above. I believe a whole host of Muslims came here to escape the murderous regimes they were born into. We need to empower them by decisively and surely investigating mosques as we did southern churches in the heyday of the Ku Klux Klan and shutting down conspirators and provocateurs.

What I think is the greatest tragedy is that, by our misguided tolerance to those who advocate sharia, by violence or subversion, we extend the tyranny of sharia beyond the borders of the countries these people have escaped. In that measure, we fail American citizens we are swonr to defend, particularly Muslim Americans.

Ret. Marine| 9.11.10 @ 6:45AM

The real difference between this time period and then was we had a man of courage in the White House, now we have a limp-dicked-muslim, Get it? or should I remind you of the many American (SOG) operators involved in the push to rid Afghanistan of the Soviet influneces in Kabul. You need to read up on your history, not the invented kind, from the sources.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 4:07PM

Steve A,

Sometimes offending the non-lunatics is necessary. Let's assume that most Muslims would not react violently to the Koran burning (I don't necessarily accept that premise - but for the sake of argument, let's assume it's true). How will they react, not just to the burning, but more importantly, to the "lunatic" Muslims' over-the-top reaction of violence?

Some, undoubtedly will jump off the fence and become lunatics themselves - as you alluded to in your original post - but I contend they eventually would have gone that path anyway. But what about the rest? Will they jump off the fence and become lunatics? Or will they jump off the fence and take their "Religion of Peace" back from the lunatics?

If we are to ever have peace with Islam without annihilating each other, then at some point in time, the so-called moderate Muslims are going to have to get off the fence and take their religion back from the lunatics.

There is no justice in offending non-lunatic Muslims. But there may be less justice in NOT offending them.

Nancy in NC| 9.10.10 @ 5:02PM

And how, exactly, do you think most of the camel drivers found out about the guy in Fla?

And do you think it was reported that he was burning 200 Koran? (probably thousands)

I'd say that the media has propogated this right out of this world...and for no other reason than ratings. 15 minutes of fame and another commercial paid for.
Why do we keep giving these people all the free publicity?

cchaseCFI| 9.10.10 @ 10:10AM

I think Rev Jones has a great idea. I think everyone in the western 21st century who love religious tolerance should burn a koran on Sep 11 every year.

The ground zero moske is not a islamic outreach center. Muslims do not reach out to anyone. It is a victory moske. Just like every other victory they have claimed, they build a vicory moske on the site. When they conquered Isreal they tore down the great temple of Soloman and built a victory moske that still stands today. The ground zero victory moske will house a shrine to the 19 mujahadeen killers of 911. Muslims from all over the world will come to tour their great victory over the West. Why else would Siria, Iran, and Saudia Arabia fund it? Do you honestly think they are going to allow us infidels inside?

I think everyone who loves freedom should burn a koran evey year on Sep 11 until the islamists purge their koran of the jihad/infidel passages and leave the 6th century behind and join us in the 21st century. We should burn it until they stop teaching their children that Jews are pigs and adopt religious tolorence. We should burn it until they open up their religion and purge their ranks of extreamists, and do so publicly so we can all see. Where is the fatwa on Osama and his ilk?

We don't need Fox news or any news co. Just make a video and put it on YouTube. It'll get around.

Hopefully it will send these nut jobs into a state of frenzy where they will self destruct and rid the world of these vermine.

Do your part to bring the world together. Burn a koran on Sep 11.

Burn baby burn.

joli| 9.11.10 @ 4:27PM

While I appreciate the sentiment, burning a koran presupposes HAVING a koran to burn, which for most of us means BUYING a koran... so you're suggesting that every year 100 million of us give money to the publishers of korans so that we can burn korans. No way those publishers could be muslim extremists.... naaaahhh...

I have a better idea. Let's boycott any bookstore that offers a koran for sale... including Borders, Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, etc. Let's express our deep displeasure against these bookstores for providing our muslim enemies with the comfort of a koran. Before someone starts whining about "censorship", STOP! No one is telling them that they are not allowed to carry these books, and we are not suggesting that the government make a law prohibiting the sale of these unholy books. We are simply telling them, as is our right, that if they carry these books, we will not give them our business. That is not censorship, that is freedom of speech and freedom of association.

gene hauber| 9.10.10 @ 10:31AM

Forget "horrible incivility"....let's poke more than a finger in the eye of these 7th century savages.
WE ARE FED UP WITH THEIR PROVOCATIONS AND THE HORRIBLE INCIVILITY OF THEIR TAQQIYA LADEN LAMENTS THAT KEEP PEOPLE LIKE YOU BULL-SHITTED LONG AFTER THE TIME YOU SHOULD HAVE CAUGHT ON. THEY NEED TO BE BROUGHT OUT INTO THE DAYLIGHT SO THE WORLD CAN GET A GOOD LOOK AT THE CORE OF ISLAM, PURE INTOLERANCE AND SAVAGRY.............THINK LOPPING OFF HEADS, STONING, DISMEMBERMENT, FATHERS CUTTING OFF DAUGHTERS EARS AND NOSE. BRING IT ON.

Martin Owens| 9.10.10 @ 10:46AM

What I fear is that we have passed the point of no return, or will soon. Civility does not work, it seems; violence and viciousness do.
This Florida pastor is definitely a fringe item, a self important nut case. But, then, so was John Brown.

George True| 9.10.10 @ 10:53AM

I think it is shameful and embarrassing that we have one lone preacher with a flock of no more than fifty burning Korans this weekend. We should all be deeply offended at this.

I mean how is it that just one guy has the stones to do such a thing. We need to have thousands and thousands of people all over this great country, burning Korans every single weekend. And video each burning and put them all on the internet.

We need to burn 'em so fast and in such great numbers that the publishing companies can't keep up with the demand.

Citizen Jerry| 9.10.10 @ 10:55AM

Haven't we already dealt with a crazy preacher named Jones?

gene hauber| 9.10.10 @ 3:56PM

HEY C=J,
IF THAT IS ALL YOU CAN COME UP WITH, GO BACK TO SLEEP OR SCHOOL.
JIM JONES WAS A KILLER
REV. JONES IN GAINSVILLE WPOULD LIKE TO PROTECT YPOUR STUPID BUTT FROM GETTING ANY MSTUPIDER

Max Bleiweiss| 9.10.10 @ 11:21AM

Why do we keep referring to the Koran as a "holy book"? It's nothing of the sort. We should not be giving it legitimacy in any way, shape or form.

Steve W| 9.10.10 @ 11:42AM

Says you.

Muslims might have a different take.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 12:15PM

Muslims may have a different take on whether my daughter should be taught to read and write, too.

Ignorance does not deserve to be given respect. Evil does not deserve to be given legitimacy.

GENE HAUBER| 9.10.10 @ 3:58PM

FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF THE MUSLIMS

Samwise| 9.10.10 @ 11:39AM

Burning any 'holy' book is wrong but this is being blown way out of perspective: where is the Muslim outrage at the stoning, whipping,torture, maiming, killing of women even for an alleged offense? Where is the collective outrage of Muslims at the beheading of Americans in their countries? Where is the outrage of Muslims at one of their Imam's project to build a Mosque at Ground Zero and his making veiled threats of Muslim violence against Americans if his project does not go through? Where is the Muslim outrage when Christian Bibles are burned in Muslim countries? Muslims are outraged and threatening violence because of a threat to burn a quaran...? Well, they have threatened and carried out violence against just a drawing of Muhammed that they considered inappropriate - they threaten to kill a man who spoke disrespectfully of Muslims...where is freedom of speech for non-Muslims???? They seek to kill those who write books about Muhammed that they deem disrespectful...if this Pastor had threated to burn a bible would there have been such a major outcry...didn't the government order the burning of Bibles when it was alleged that they were being used to teach Muslims about Christianity? Let's have a little balance here.

Gill O’Teen ✝✡$| 9.10.10 @ 11:43AM

I sent Reverend Jones an email the other day suggesting that after the barbacueran he scoop up its ashes and place them in small vials which he could then auction on eBay. Might this offend the jihadist? Who cares? I don’t. South Park’s writers have made fun of Jesus, Moses, Buddha and probably every known religious icon in history, but it is only when they wish to show the world that they believe all religions are proper subjects of satire by inclusively adding the prophet of pieces to their roster that the world rises up in indignation and bullies them into an episode of pablum. Make no mistake, the only peace jihadists care about is that which will only come about after the rest of us are enslaved or dead. Over the past 2 years, I have noticed that the fly kisser only opines on something when he wishes to distract our attention from whatever else he is plotting to deprive us of our freedoms. he studied islum in Indonesia. The sister he never had, his senior advisor mizz jarr-it, was born in Iran. his pestulance can recite the Arabic call to prayer with a first-rate accent and once described it as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.” I’m not accusing him of being a member of that radical sect, I have no way of knowing for certain. I do think that to the sunburned panda, religion is nothing more than a tool useful for fundamentally transforming OUR Country into a kommie utopia like koobah, which even its founder admitted recently didn’t work. The other day the ambassador to hamas and bridge builder supreme subtly threatened us with acts of terror if we don’t allow him to trample on the graves of American victims of Saudi missionaries. Make no mistake, islam is not the religion of peace. It is the religion of tyranny and depends on its existence not from the holiness of its message, but on the subjugation of its people. Anything any of us can do to halt the spread of this disease is justified. If we are not willing to draw a line in the sand, we deserve whatever happens. I also recommend that all who honor the 9/11 victims tomorrow by combusting jihadi playbooks, properly enhance the festivities with beer and freshly roasted pork sausages. But to appease Andy Cline be sure to mind your manners and say please and thank you when asking for seconds. Must be civil, ya no.

Gill O’Teen ✝✡$
Don’t Tread on Me.
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
“Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah alone or pay us the Jizyah tribute tax in submission. Our Prophet has informed us that our Lord says: ‘Whoever amongst us is killed as a martyr shall go to Paradise to lead such a luxurious life as he has never seen, and whoever survives shall become your master.’” Bukhari:V4B53N386
“I am a little pencil in the hand of a writing God who is sending a love letter to the world.” - Mother Teresa
Only 863 days to go

George True| 9.10.10 @ 11:48AM

Mr O'Teen: Hear, hear!!

Downie| 9.10.10 @ 11:51AM

You Conservatives are so Brave. I like the way one guy can speak for all of us, telling us what we know and don't.
Hell, I think we should start a business, Flags to Burn.
You wanna burn a Flag? Get one right here. Buy a dozen impress your friends.
Only 19.95, or 200.00 for a dozen. :: ))

Gill O’Teen ✝✡$| 9.10.10 @ 1:52PM

“You Conservatives are so Brave. I like the way one guy can speak for all of us, telling us what we know and don't.” “You Conservatives”??????? "us”????????? A tad schizophrenic, eh. I do not speak for anyone else and am quite capable of making up my own mind. However, I would like to know who this one guy is who speaks for all of us. The host voices I hear on Fox and conservative radio all say that The Florida Pastor has a Constitutional right to act stupidly, but .... I do not add a but. As far as I know I was the first to suggest that this little parish use the notoriety of their bonfire to enhance their Church’s bottom line. If I am the first, how can I only be doing what I was told? I was also the first, to my knowledge, to add beer and pork to the festivities. My vision is that pork roasting over the fire will drip pig fat on the flames. Again, since I had not heard anyone else suggesting similar prior to my earlier post, how can I only be doing what I was told? Only someone accustomed to obediently doing as he or she is told would even consider that the rest of us do the same.
Gill O’Teen ✝✡$
Don’t Tread on Me.
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
“Liberals hate America, they hate "flag-wavers," they hate abortion opponents, they hate all religions except Islam (post 9/11). Even Islamic terrorists don't hate America like liberals do. They don't have the energy. If they had that much energy, they'd have indoor plumbing by now.” - Ann Coulter
Only 863 days to go

paroikew | 9.10.10 @ 11:56AM

America doesn't hate Arabs, but we do smell a rat, let me explain.  What do the vast majority of people living on the continent of Europe have in common? Well, their socialist, and they all have really bad teeth.  These two seem innocuous but juxtapose and the metaphor will become obvious.  The reason Islam will never take hold here in America is because freedom is ingrained in our spirit.  The people that started this country took a fork early in their history toward freedom.  The cost of this freedom was so high, it developed in them a kernel that still programs our way of thinking today, and separates us from most of the World.  We fix our kid's teeth, and we will never accept a rigid cruel religion like Islam.


There is a fundamental coding inside this kernel that binds us and Israel in the same belief in God, not the god that Islam professes, but the Father of the King and sustainer of the universe, Jesus Christ.  But to Islam this is blaspheme.  It's very important to understand the distinction here, our decision (prior to Obama) to defend Israel is fundamental to who we are, but is devil worship to Islam.  This next statement is going to be hard to hear but it needs to be said, allah is a figment of the Islam religion.  There is many more then one contradiction between the God of the Old Testament and the god of the koran, which eliminates the possibility that God and allha are the same Entity. Period.   

Early in history there was a an event that highlights the significant difference between Islam and Judaism/Christianity.  Actually, This was the first direct foreshadowing of the future atoning sacrifice and resurrection in the Old Testament.  God wanted to test Abraham telling him to kill his son.  Now as the story has it, there were two sons, one born through disbelief the other born through faith.  The Old Testament says; God told Abraham to kill the son born through faith, but the koran says; God told Abraham to kill the son born through disbelief.  I'm referring to the foreshadowing of God sacrificing Himself to buy back His creation, the finishing act of creation it's self!  If your religion changes that, then you have taken a fork which would not lead to your freedom, but to the harsh, cruel religion Islam is today.   And in so doing, you have cooked your own goose.

FeralCat| 9.10.10 @ 11:56AM

"and then rise to Terry Jones' defense on the lame excuse that he has the right to free expression?"

Free expression is a lame excuse? That is the by far the lamest "argument" I have yet heard for not burning copies of Mein Koran.

Nate| 9.10.10 @ 11:56AM

I'm not entirely sure I understand.

You folks soak yourselves in front of Fox News, which night after night demonizes Muslims.

Then one of your own takes such demonization to its ultimate (and rather boringly literarlist) conclusion and decides to BURN KORANS.

What did you think was going to happen?

Now --

The moron in Florida has every right to burn Korans, and I for one don't care whether people think it's right or wrong. The 1st amendment isn't there to make us comfortable.

But let's think about the two versions of "extreme" expression we have:

The "extremist" Imam in New York wants to build a house of worship and a community center that anyone's welcome to use.

The "extremist" in Florida, and his mustachios, wants to burn books held sacred by millions of Americans and more than a billion people world wide.

I'll take "their" extremist over "ours" any day.

JP| 9.10.10 @ 12:24PM

"I'll take "their" extremist over "ours" any day."

You're darn right you do. All of those Christians who fly planes into buildings, blow up schools and pizza parlors, create civil wars, and launch suicide bombers at civilians are a real menance.

Nate, my good dhimmi, keep up the good work. We need more alert, well informed citizens as yourself.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 12:25PM

Oh, you mean like Timmie McVeigh, who protested the Federal action against the Christian wing nuts in Waco, by bombing a federal building and killing all the children in the day care center?

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:00PM

RCV,

Oooo! You got us there. Great point.

One non-practicing Catholic, and self-described AGNOSTIC, against thousands of Moslem killers, with tens of thousands of innocent victims, over the past several decades.

Your comment illustrates perfectly the false moral equivalency arguments of the left. Thank you so much.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 4:07PM

Nick, you know what a pointless exercise this challenge is. You want tens of thousands of innocent victims killed by Christians in past decades? We could start with the tens of thousands of Bosian Mulslims slaughtered by those good Christian Serbs. How about the tens of thousands of black Africans slaughtered and tortured by the good Christian Boers of South Africa to whom their God had given them that promised land? I won't even have to get into the Catholic-Protestant slaughters in Northern Ireland and Croatia-Serbia, or the individual murders of doctors by zealous anti-abortion Christians. Don't go there.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 5:24PM

RCV,

I will go there.

First, my main point was that McVeigh wasn't a Christian. Did you not read the link?

Second, I thought we were talking about recent history. Seeing as JP referrenced recent Moslem Arab attacks on Israel and the attacks of Septermber 11th, 2001, and you brought up the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995.

Third, Yugoslavia was ruled by atheistic communists for 45 years prior to the slaughter of Bosnian Moslems. So, what makes the Serbs who committed those crimes Christian?

Forth, colonialism was all about economic control, not religion.

Finally, shall we go into the MILLIONS killed by all the followers of Marx?

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 5:41PM

No need to - zealotry, religious or ideological, has led to mass murder throughout history.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 7:26PM

RCV,

Again, the moral equivalency argument holds no water. Whether it is between Christian and Moslems, or between Christians and Marxists, Christians have far less blood on their hands.

It has been a popular calumny throughout history to blame Christians for killing many, many more people than were actually killed.

A perfect example is the Inquisition. Not just the Spanish Inquistion, but,the whole period of it.

Over 400 years, about 4,000 people were executed.....by the state. The Catholic Church tried to reign in the secular authorities by instituting the Inquisition.

The BBC even did a documentary about this. They concluded it was a lie that there were hundreds of thousands, or even millions, of deaths.

I noticed that you didn't even try to refute my point by point rebuttal, by the way.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 8:04PM

We've had this discussion, before, Nick. I can't take seriously your defense of the Inquisition, or your attempts to pretend muderous Christian zealots don't exist.

Tim*| 9.12.10 @ 11:14AM

Obviously , Obama LawBoy RCV ignores the fact that about 70 million Christian faithful have given their lives for the faith, and of these, 45.5 million -- fully 65% -- were in the last century .

Nick| 9.12.10 @ 4:32PM

RCV,

Try doing some reading, then.

I provide facts, and all you've got are dismissive attempts at sarcasm. Where are your facts, RCV?

Tell me, just who are these "murderous Christian zealots." And, do thier killings rank up there with famous lefties like Castro, Che, Pol Pot, Ceauşescu, etc.

I won't use Stalin, Hitler, or Mao. That would be unfair! Not to mention, not even the Moslems come close to these left-wing murderers. Unless, you count the Turkish genocide of Armenians.

RCV| 9.12.10 @ 6:32PM

You certainly won't get any defense from me of any of the murderous scoundrels you list. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Castro, Che, Pol Pot, Ceausescu were all despicable atheistic murderers, whom I have always despised. Zealotry, religious or ideological generally leads to the same end.

I am an addictive reader, especially of history, Nick.

Nick| 9.13.10 @ 12:22AM

Then you should try reading about the Inquisition, RCV.

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 1:56PM

I have read much about the Inquisition -- whenever my stomach can take it. It's like books on the Balck Plague to me - fascinating, but I can only take so much. The last really good book I read on the subject was "The Grand Inquisitor's Manual; A History of Terror in the Name of God" by Jonathan Kirsch, published in 2008 by Harper One. Highly recommended. Kirsch is an NYU professor and an attorney.

If you have some book you think is worthwhile, I'd love to read it. Always open to new information and new ideas - keeps the brain working!

Be well.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 3:22PM

Miss Venom here:

I know according to you I sould be silent, but here goes anyhow

Suggested reading: Tortured for Christ by Rev. Richard Wurmbrand. And his wife Sabina's book~ The Pastor's wife.

I guarantee you will look at things differently while reading them.

You can usually request a free copy here:
vom.org

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 4:14PM

No, I don't want you to be silent, Margie, St. Paul does. I happen to appreciate women with a brain and a voice. Thanks for the tip - I shall look them up, if my brother doesn't send them on to me first.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 12:27PM

According to the teachings of the Koran (which by the way, I have read), the mere fact that you do not care whether the "extremist" in Florida burns books means that the "extremist" in New York (the one you claim to prefer), has a moral duty to kill you. You do realize that, right? That in your comment, you chose the "extremist" who wants you dead.

paroikew| 9.10.10 @ 12:42PM

Nate your a fool, "a house of worshop... that everyone's welcome to use." Nate you need to do 3 things. First, rock back enough to allow your head to slip free, Second, buy or download a koran, and third, READ IT!

thwart Man| 9.10.10 @ 12:50PM

4 things, after 1) he would need to wash up.
I got such a visual.

Nate| 9.10.10 @ 2:09PM

Have any of you read a Bible lately?

Snip any one of hundreds of passages out of the old OR new testaments and you can make a case that the Jewish or Christian religions are "extremist."

And next time your eye offends you?

Pluck it out.

BD57| 9.10.10 @ 3:07PM

You don't do "interpretation", do you?

Not even the people who heard Christ say those words took it literally.

paroikew| 9.11.10 @ 1:24PM

Nate, whenever Jesus would teach he used PAR-A-BLES, you can tell when He is doing this because the main person in the story is not named.

There was a certain man... There came a man... Everyone who comes to me is...
The farmer went out... is like a certain king... will be like ten virgins...

Now go to Wikipedia and look up parable, ....ok, now you should know parables are short stories used to make a moral lesson.

Nate's parable:
There was a certain man that thought of himself as being very intelligent, and he loved to share with the less intelligent his masterful understandings.  But alas, all of his supposed smarts were only foolishness and always missed the mark.  The amount he missed the mark varied, but the cause of missing the mark was always the same, ten inches.  The distance between his brain and heart.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:24PM

Paroikew,

Ha-ha!
Great comment, sir/madam?!

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:22PM

"Snip any one of hundreds of passages out of the old OR new testaments and you can make a case that the Jewish or Christian religions are 'extremist.'"
- Nate the dazi

Ummm, no you can't.
If you could, you would have done it, rather than merely just asserting your false claim.
Nice try, though. I think not!

Tim*| 9.12.10 @ 11:18AM

Speakin' of " offends you " , Pluck You Nate .

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.10.10 @ 1:10PM

We're buying shrimp, Nate. Nice going. Demonize all of them while complaining about somebody demonizing somebody else. You are the man Nate. Well after the operation anyway. Off to play some hoops in. I never tire... We're doubling the Peace Corp baby.

Sheila| 9.10.10 @ 6:05PM

Nate, what I said to Alan Brooks also applies to you: since you see no difference between Christians and Muslims, please take your august and enlightened presence away from us benighted Christian souls and go live amongst those Jihadis you so admire. And, as I also said to Brooks, to hell with all Jewish liberals.

Feralcat| 9.10.10 @ 12:00PM

Light up copies of Mein Korampf if you've got them.

FeralCat| 9.10.10 @ 12:05PM

If burning copies of Mein Korampf ist strictly Verboten, then let's stone copies of Mein Korampf instead. Muslims certainly should not object to that as they very much approve of stoning as does their Mein Korampf.

GUI| 9.10.10 @ 12:14PM

Mr Cline,

It is obvious that the "religion of peace" is not only entirely intolerant of everyone else on the planet but also takes delight in threatening and murdering anyone who will not kowtow to them.

Trying to use "civility" to communicate with them is like trying to calm a rabid dog with a doggy treat. It aint gonna work.

Freedom is a messy but wonderful thing and, despite the ongoing efforts of the obamunists to destroy it, this is the last place left on Earth where it may be practiced.

If you cannot stand someone else expressing their freedom here in America then you should migrate to whichever rigid intolerant dictatorship that suits your rigid intolerant mind and leave us freedom lovers in peace.

And to the Ground Zero Imam ... your threats only piss us off pal. Keep it up with the threats and at some point you are going to get that war that you so desire. And you are making a serious tactical error when you mistake our tolerance of your overt provocations as weakness. The elitists in this country will gladly bow their heads so that you may sever them, but they do not represent the real America.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 1:12PM

"If you cannot stand someone else expressing their freedom here in America then you should migrate to whichever rigid intolerant dictatorship that suits your rigid intolerant mind and leave us freedom lovers in peace."

Unless, apparently, you're a muslim, right? Your last two paragraphs contradict each other. If you can't stand muslims expressing their freedom here in America, then I suggest you start packing.

GUI| 9.10.10 @ 4:27PM

Well aren't you the clever boy!

In case you haven't noticed there's a big difference between protesting something you disagree with and threatening to kill someone who dares to disgaree with you.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 4:35PM

Well, I can't argue with that. Has that imam raouf been threatening to kill people who don't agree with his mosque plans?

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 7:27PM

No DRed, he hasn't. Instead, like the boys the Mafia used to send to local businesses, he is 'informing' us of what the consequences will be if we don't accept his offer of 'protection' from his fellow religionists who, you gotta understand, are more excitable than he is. He can't control them, you see, but he can keep them at a dull roar as long as we pay the proper tribute.

Please, in any other context you would be smart enough to recognize a racket and its chief racketeer.

"Hey, whaddya want? Jimmy Boom-Boom told da guy he could get hurt if he didn't hire us to keep him safe." You, undoubtedly would cite that as evidence of La Cosa Nostra's good will and complete innocence in the torching of your place of business if you chose not to pay the tribute, right?

FeralCat| 9.10.10 @ 12:21PM

A light bulb finally came on. If that Pastor of the small Christian Church decides to not burn copies of the Koran after all, I think he should say that he is going to burn copies of Mein Kampf instead, as a very close substitute. The Koran is about twice as bad as Mein Kampf so I guess he would have to burn twice as many copies of Mein Kampf.

DVG93| 9.10.10 @ 12:21PM

First of, I don't consider islam a religeon. Many comments here are dead on. Too many to acknowledge.

Second, they are at war with us. They have been for some time. It is time we acknowledge the validity of OUR culture. It is time we defend OUR culture.

Now the Fla rev may be a kook, but even kooks do usefull things. It will be usefull to see the response we receive after the murderous book is burned.

Fox? Did you watch O'Reilley last evening? Fox does not portray islam as the problem. Like a lot of others, it " radical " islam. I call BULL S%$#.
islam is the problem. Not arabs, not indonesians, not any one specific race. islam!

IMHO it is time to pull our troops out of the mid east. All of them. Leave every country over there.

When Bush undertook the effort to bring Iraq to modernity, I agreed. It was worth the effort. Perhaps a longshot, but worthy of America to at least attempt to do so.

It failed. Time to go home and work up alternative measures. The first is get the darn oil drilled in Alaska and the gulf.

The second is develope an acceptable military strategy that does not involve a large ground force.

To transform the middle east, we will need to employ the only strategy since the Civil War to achieve success. The William Tecumseh Sherman strategy. It worked in the US Confederacy. It worked in Germany, and it worked in Japan.

What is it? You defeat your opponent so soundly, another war is off the table.

So burn the bloody book. Let our enemies open the eyes to the stupidly naive.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 1:09PM

How'd we defeat the soviet union again?

That darn oil in Alaska won't reduce our dependency on foreign oil enough to change our foreign policy towards odious oil producing regimes. We'd still need the Saudis, our buddies in Venezuela, etc.

Finally, how do you determine what a religion is?

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 1:28PM

DRed, you have an astounding defeatist attitude. Are you a troll?

You have an illness. It's called self-hatred.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 1:35PM

If you asked bin laden if he wanted this koran burning to go ahead, I'm pretty sure he'd say yes. It plays right into his hands. In a war, I think it's a pretty bad idea to do exactly what your enemy would want. Do you disagree with that?

DVG93| 9.10.10 @ 3:17PM

You bet I do. First, maybe or maybe not we can drill enough oil to keep us supplied. But for darn sure, we can put one heck of a dent in our dependency. A little austerity wouldn't hurt either. If we try, we can git er done.

Perhaps defining a religeon isn't required here. Perhaps defining what is a barbaric cult, originated by a babaric human being is. Think we got that one.

Ever heard of Count Leopold Berchtold
and Helmuth von Moltke? Their machinations led directly to WW1. While the outcome was not what they desired, the war was. Even the Kaiser had no idea.
So maybe if muslims behave very badly, they will have played into our hands. Who would fail to acknowledge what was so barbaric and unfailingly brutal that one would be forced to understand the severity of our situation.

"The idea that the Muslim god, Allah, demands worldwide submission by all, whether voluntarily or at the point of a sword, is at the very heart of the Koran." By Kyle-Anne Shiver

Also

"This philosophical war within Islam has been falsely defined by both Muslim apologists and Western liberals as a fight between moderate Muslims and radical Muslims. It is no such thing. And anyone -- even a Christian layperson, such as myself -- who has bothered to actually read the Koran and any non-apologetic biography of Mohamed knows this full well.

Herein lies the root of the problem for Islam.

Ernest Muslims, who wish to modernize their faith and truly make it a "religion of peace," must virtually erase their Prophet to do so."

This question may be raging inside islam, but it is raging here in this discussion, within our government, and within our military as well.

PM Erdogan of Turkey said it succinctly. There is no moderate islam, only islam.

Moderate people whom practice islam should abandon islam because it is a very dreadfull ideology inflicted at great cost to the entire world.

Those that want to play war, well, give it to them. No remorse, no mercy.

DRed| 9.10.10 @ 3:26PM

As far as the oil goes, it's not even debatable. There isn't remotely enough oil in the united states to supply our demand.

"Moderate Islam is a term open for discussion. I would like to correct this. There is no need to place a new term before or after Islam. Islam means peace. Therefore, Islam refuses all radicalism. Islam is against all forms of fanaticism. According to Islamic teachings, the murder of one equals the murder of all globally. We do not need the term moderate Islam to explain the true spirit of Islam,' told Erdogan. … Terms like Islamic terror and Islam's terror are wrong. Such an attitude towards other religions is also wrong and unacceptable. No religion can tolerate terror. Just as we can not talk about Christian terrorism or Jewish terrorism, we can not talk about Islamic terror. Some terrorists may come up from certain Muslim, Christian or Jewish groups. Yet, we can not hold a whole religion responsible for the acts of a few individuals. This hurts honest and devoted people and is wrong. This is what the terrorists are striving for."
-Recep Erdogan

DVG93| 9.10.10 @ 3:44PM

As far as oil goes, it is very debatable.

In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.
Islamic prescription: The sovereignty in the Islamic State belongs to God; the people exercise it by trust from Him to enforce His laws.

Lying and cheating in the Arab world is not really a moral matter but a method of safeguarding honor and status, avoiding shame, and at all times exploiting possibilities, for those with the wits for it, deftly and expeditiously to convert shame into honor on their own account and vice versa for their opponents. If honor so demands, lies and cheating may become absolute imperatives.” [David Pryce-Jones, “The Closed Circle” An interpretation of the Arabs, p4]

"The study of taqiyya is crucial to an understanding of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism.It is most frequently used by Muslim 'spokesmen' whilst intentionally making misleading public statements concerning Islam and terrorism. "
Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah
by Warner MacKenzie

30 April, 2007

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 7:32PM

A guy who keeps shoving you in the chest obviously wants you to pop him so the fight will be on. He wants that in the expectation he will win. Knock him out cold and you have done what he wanted without him getting the result he expected. Problem solved. The dirtball isn't shoving you in the chest anymore, is a damn sight more careful about provoking you, and generally slinks away. So yes, sometimes giving an enemy what he wants is very smart indeed, provided you make sure he doesn't get the result he expected.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:29PM

DRed,

That's pretty good dime-store child psychology.

Usama wants us to do it, so we shouldn't do it. Do you think it will work?

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 12:23PM

Engage in a mental exercise with me here: Close your eyes & magine the act of actually burning this book. Go find a random Muslim (I know a Mr. Patel down the street) while he is standing there, take out your Koran, set it on the ground, pour lighter fluid on it & toss a match on it & tell him to F off. Feel good about yourself?? Solved some problems?? Are you a patriot?? No my friend, you are now a certified a hole.

Purple Lips| 9.10.10 @ 12:28PM

And a Mr Patel will draw his sword and lop off the head of such a blasphamer. Later, he will join his friends and eat a meal of pork chops and Schlitz before settling down with his DVD collection of torture porn.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 12:34PM

Hey Purple, #1 That was kinda funny. #2: I know you would not have the balls to actually do it, yet you would cheer the wacky preacher if he did. #3: I know Mr. Patel & he would probably cry as he was sure I was his friend.

Purple Lips| 9.10.10 @ 2:19PM

And it begs the question whether you and your friend spilled tears over the beheading of Danial Pearl, or teenagers Arina and Sarah from Tx, the US contractor who was hung in Fallujah in 2004? Pearl was beheaded, the two TX girls were shot by thier father for dating infidels, and the contractor was burnt alive before his body was hung from a bridge. These were real "outrages". But hey, I see your point; Pearl was just a Jew; the two girls had it coming; and the contractor never should have been in Fallujah to begin with.

BTW, our friends in Afghanistan are already on a rampage. It appears they're just getting started, and not one Koran has yet to be burned. I think Catholics should take note. Perhaps, Catholics should riot everytime a new Jack Chick pamphlet gets printed.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 12:45PM

If the random Muslim is true to the teachings in that book, he will immediately kill you. If he cannot immediately kill you, he will enlist the aid of other Muslims and kill you when he can. If he doesn't do that, then he's not really a Muslim.

Try this mental exercise: Go find a random Christian and while he is standing there, take out your Bible and set it on fire. Certainly, there are some people who claim to be Christians who would react violently to such a display. Those people, however, would NOT be acting in accord with Christian teachings. If the Christian is true to teachings in the Bible, he will PRAY FOR YOU.

Christianity is based on the Love of God for His people as expressed through His Son, Jesus Christ, who gave His life for all of us. God's love does not need books to survive.

But Islam is based on the Hatred of God and His people, and hatred must be nurtured, recorded for all posterity, and passed down like a grudge. That's what the Koran is, the means by which a long held grudge is passed from generation to generation. Remove the record, and the grudge will eventually pass away.

That's why the Muslim witnessing the burning of the Koran has a duty to kill, while the Christian witnessing the burning of the Bible has a duty to pray. It is the difference between God's love, and man's hatred. It's that simple.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 12:57PM

Ok then. According to this theory you may as well just go ahead & skip the Koran & go straight to burning the people who subscribe to it to avoid the inevitable. Un freaking real. You peolpe are insane. This is bumming me out big time.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 4:45PM

You couldn't be more wrong.

In the early 1930's, in Germany, most Germans were NOT Nazis, but as the Nazis came to power, more and more Germans joined the Nazi party because they had to join to get anywhere in life. But Naziism was an Evil ideology, and it had to be eradicated. We didn't have to kill all Germans to eradicate Naziism, we didn't even have to kill all Nazis. But we could not simply choose to live in peace with Naziism because (a) Naziism was never going to live in peace with us, and (b) Naziism was EVIL, and it is morally wrong to tolerate the existence of EVIL.

edo| 9.10.10 @ 1:25PM

"Patel" is an Indian name. Most likely a Hindu. So please don't bother Mr. Patel.

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 1:30PM

You know very well that Patel is not a Muslim name. Please do not malign the Hindus, they are not our enemy, they are our friends.

Thomas| 9.10.10 @ 1:34PM

Steve,

I don't understand your point. The Reverend Jones' protest is not against random Muslims. It is directed at those Muslims who, hiding behind their freedom of religion in the United States, work to support the actions of Muslims worldwide that attack the U.S. either physically or philosophically. That is why it was scheduled to be held on the anniversary of the deadliest attack on civilians in U.S. history. And, it is largely a reaction to current policies of the federal government with respect to Ground Zero and the proposed GZ mosque. This is not to say that I agree with the Reverend's proposal or that of the GZ mosque. It is a reminder of just who was responsible for the 9/11 attacks against this country.

The U.S. government and the American people readily embraced the idea that American military force be used strictly against the governmental and terrorist agencies arrayed against the U.S. There was no targeting of Muslims, either here or abroad. There was mass killing of Muslims by the U.S. There are no Muslim internment camps in the U.S. Muslims are not spit on or harassed as they walk down the street. If Mr. Patel supports the principles of this country, he is welcome. If he chooses to actively work to destroy this country, her principles and other citizens; he is not welcome. No one is going to Mr. Patel's house and burn a Koran on his doorstep. If someone did, it would be the duty of every American to do what they could to prevent that. Why? Because Mr. Patel is a Muslim? No. Because he is a law abiding, conscience member of American society.

By the way, a book is simply a book. It is the knowledge contained within that determines its value.

Thomas| 9.10.10 @ 1:37PM

*correction*
There was mass killing of Muslims by the U.S. - should read:

There was NO mass killing of Muslims by the U.S.

Sorry.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 1:46PM

Thomas, I completely understand that Jones is directing the action vs. Islamic nut jobs only, however, do you think that ALL of the non jihadi Muslims are going to get that memo?? I mean, really?? If we could collect all of the wacko Islamic wannabe terrorists in Giants Stadium & exclude the rational segment I would throw the match on the pile of books at the 50 yard line in delight. PS: Ghordan Patel: certified Muslim, not sure on background as to why.

Purple Lips| 9.10.10 @ 2:22PM

According to our esteemed Islamic expert, Whanabist Muslims only account for 10% of the Muslim population. In other words, there are over 100 million worldwide, and just a tiny 600,00 here in the US. Boy, that makes me feel better.

BD57| 9.10.10 @ 3:28PM

You may have hit on the real point here, albeit inadvertently.

This kind of stunt is all about attention seeking & self-gratification/glorification.

It's not about advancing the Gospel.

It's not about defeating Islamofascism.

So many comments about the abuse Christians take on a regular basis & being sick (and tired - "and tired" always follows sick) of the bullying done in the name of Allah every time some alleged slight of Islam occurs.

"It's time someone stuck a thumb in THEIR eye" seems to be a common theme.

Why?

Ideally, we'd save our energy and attention for substantive resistance to Islamofascism and not waste it on this sideshow stuff.

Ideally, we wouldn't tarnish our own credibility by associating ourselves with an attention hound whose actions will lead many of the persuadable to recoil from our side of the argument.

Ideally, we'd understand that persecution is one of the "badges" of our faith - after all, Jesus told us it would happen.

Ideally, we would rejoice in the trials of life, knowing that the testing of our faith produces patience, and patience renders us perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

I'm not going to throw a burning Koran at Mr. Patel's feet because doing so does nothing to advance the Kingdom of God, it merely offends for offense's sake.

Margie| 9.10.10 @ 4:36PM

Bd57,

You are presuming the pastor is doing it for attention. I do not presume that. And as for leading many of the persuadable to recoil? I disagree. They will see that we mean business, They will see that we have the courage to burn a book that is a book of murderous intent and the God given soul inside of them will come to Christ. If we cower to Obama's singling this pastor out as "doing the wrong thing" the Muslims who mean us no harm will see that, too and lose respect. The pastor isn't throwing a burning Koran at anyone's feet personally. He would be burning it to show that it is wrong, that it represents evil and deserves to be burned.

Advancing the Kingdom of God?

Acts 19:19 & 20~

"And a number of those who practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all; and they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord grew and prevailed mightily."

Douglas| 9.10.10 @ 12:34PM

Most of you so-called conservatives have lost your nerve and will to fight oppression. Go ahead and get on your prayer rug bow down and worship at the politically correct idol now serving allah. As for me, I have no respect for a gutter religion.

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 12:39PM

Douglas, you're right. The so-called conservatives have joined the lefties in their dhimmitude.

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 12:38PM

Why has Hussein Obama's administration declared war against the Florida pastor? Why has this administration declared war against Arizona?

This is surreal.

Jim Whittle| 9.10.10 @ 1:14PM

Andrew - thank you. Pastor Jones has forgotten that the offense of Christianity is the cross. The Devils says "I will have my way." Jesus says, "Not my will but yours."

Doctor Right| 9.10.10 @ 1:14PM

I'm sorry, but I just can't get all bothered by Pastor Jone's plans to burn some Korans.

Sure, burning books is dopey...So what?? The 1st amendment guarantees us the right to do and say dopey things.

And frankly, using the 1st amendment to defend Islam in this situation is pathetic.

Islam DOES NOT value the freedoms enshrined in the 1st Amendment, or anywhere else in the Constitution, for that matter. Does Saudi Arabia have a 1st Amendment right to free speech or religion??

Of course not.

WHEN will be be stop being so damned scared of Muslim opinion?? Newsflash: They hate us! Now let's get over it, and worry about defending ourselves and our rights and not their damned feelings!

To all Muslims worldwide: You don't like what Pastor Jones is doing??

TOUGH CRAP!

joli| 9.11.10 @ 5:01PM

As I have stated before, I personally would gain some satisfaction from this event in my desire to poke them in the eye. However, I think the symbolism of burning books stems from a sense of powerlessness that most of us feel as our government appeases, scrapes, and bows their dhimmitude. We have all written lots of strong words about what we "should" do and what we want and wish we could do, and at some level the spectacle of burning these unholy books would make us feel powerful. Nevertheless, if it were within my power, I would prefer to dispense with the symbolism and get to the substance.

buddha8| 9.10.10 @ 1:23PM

To burn or not to burn, to build or not to build,
is not a question of "civility" or "tolerance"(as
Obama says). It is a question of the Clash of
religions--the response to contradictions affirmed
by different religions.

Islam directly and explicitly Contradicts(rejects)
truths, hopes, and ideals/way of life embodied
in the TORAH,the Talmud(s),the Gospels,the
New Testament, and Jesus Himself!

Islam explicitly & directly calls FALSE or LIES
the truths, hopes, and way of life of All religions
that are Not Islam,Judaism,or Christianity!

There are TWO right Questions to be asked in this
dialog between Islam and other religions & cultures.
#1 WHO or WHAT speaks for Islam?
Answer: Only the literal explicit Words of ALLAH
in the QUR'AN--not any of the 2 Hadith,or anyof the 4 Shariah,nor any Imam or imam, any mullah,any Ayatollah, or the ijma(the Muslim
believers)--not even(the now defunt)Kalif or any
mufti's fatwa.
#2 How can any non-Mulsim religion "tolerate"
Islam's direct rejection and/or disparagement
of those religions SACRED books, truths, hopes,and way of life?
Answer: By exposing the errors of Islam itself
about other religions!

Finally, the essence of TERRORISM is this:strike
FEAR in the hearts of all who Disagree with you.
Islamic Terrorism has already won in America &
Europe: everyone, even the Muslim-Christian
President Obama, FEARS saying or doing anything that might offend Islam or Muslims!
We have nothing to fear about Islam/Muslims
than our false guilt and fears of offending this
religion and its adherents!!

Maybe we should burn the QURAN to remind Islam of how many other Sacred books it burned,
other's temples/churches it demolished, how many
other non-Muslims it killed--all the the Name of
ALLAH!! Islam needs to be reminded of the evil
in itself!!

DTCOFAZ| 9.10.10 @ 1:34PM

Maybe obama and imam and the rest of the muslim extremists condemn mr. John's act of burning the Quran because they think they have better judment than mr. John.

To me, mr. John has been showing his sympathy for the ones who lost their loves on 09/11, and angry at the insensitive of the people who insisted that they must build the mosque at the site near ground zero. And he dares to show it with action.

Talk about intolerant to others: imam and the muslim extremist supporters did exactly the opposite. They make the American to tolerate their insensittive desicion but are ok when the extremist burned the American flag.

Tough S...

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 1:34PM

Challenge to all wannabe book burners. Have the guts to back up your rhetoric. Go out today & grab a Koran & torch it in your back yard this weekend. Call some friends over & have a party if you want. Report back on Monday & tell me if you "feel better" about yourself. 100% of you WILL NOT DO THIS because it's easy to sit at your laptop & act like a hero but when it comes down to it I bet you would rather re-arrange your sock drawer than take the time to back up all of this big talk. Especially when it actually comes down to doing it, you know you will feel like a total jackass.....as you would be.

Thomas| 9.10.10 @ 1:39PM

You have just surrendered the debate. Shalom.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 1:49PM

Thomas, Peace. Let me know how the marshmallows come out:) Been fun. Like a mental stress test.

Nancy in NC| 9.10.10 @ 5:17PM

I don't own the book, and wouldn't waste my money on it. If I can't burn them all, why bother? Tolerance?

I'm getting sick of being tolerant to those who refuse to condemn those who do despicable things in the name of religion, i.e. maiming children and women, jihad on innocents, etc. The more toloerant we become, the more brazen they become. It appears to me they may preceive tolerance as weakness.

I am not a man, I am dynamite| 9.10.10 @ 1:49PM

This has certainly proved to be civil.

Anthony| 9.10.10 @ 1:58PM

Shame on you Mr. Cline. You, like most members of the hyperbolic MSM, have made an international cause celeb of this insignificant pastor of a church with 50 members. Congratulations.
No conservative is egging this man on in his desire for 15 minutes of fame, which has now become almost a week, thanks to you and your cohorts. We know he has the Constitutional right to do so, but we also know how the Left and followers of the religion of peace, Islam will react.
What gets me, is the huge elephant in the room that the Left and Muslims alike refuse to acknowledge; now that Donald Trump has called these fanatics out, it's clear that only THIS site will do.
Where is the demand for tolerance and understanding from these fanatics that insist on planting the flag at G.Z? And make no mistake, that is exactly what's going on here. Nobody in the MSM has the guts to say so, just like the ruling class in Washington.
When this slimy Iman says that if we don't build on this site, it will inflame the radicals, then we know that his con has been exposed. Like his fellow travelers on the Left, he has a convenient answer to every reasonable demand that this mosque be relocated.
I've watched the MSM dance around this simple obfuscation by this slick radical, boy has the education system let this country down. We are truly an Idiocracy!!

Nate| 9.10.10 @ 2:14PM

It's fascinating to come here and read this thread.

While the actual published writers and broadcasted loudmouths of the tea bagger movement are forced to denounce this bigot in Florida, the actual adherents of this movement -- the actual mob members -- are as viciously bigoted towards (and ignorant of) Islam as he is.

You're all in good company!

Think about it. Book burnings! You people are doing book burnings now! Books! How utterly contemptible!

Enjoy it while it lasts, folks. These waves of hysteria and proto-fascistical nationalist furors flare up from time to time in our society, but the vast majority of Americans are too decent, too tolerant, too good, and too STRONG to fall under your sway!

You are fearful, trembling poltroons! You are weaklings!

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.10.10 @ 3:08PM

We're buying shrimp, Nate. The continual reference to homosexual acts is tiring and you know that I never tire in my service to the poor. I was hoping that you would work for our party but you seem to be thinking about your next encounter with a man. Lets get back to work. Think, summer of recovery, wind farms, the Chevy Volt, we're heading in the right direction, racists, homophobes, islamophobes, phobophobes. You can do it if you try. Time for my nap. We're recognizing the Armenian genocide on their lovely beaches.

Oldefarte| 9.10.10 @ 3:24PM

And you, Nate, are a MORON! Additionally, you are a political hack planted by Holder/Obama inside the D of J to issue counter-arguments on conservative news sites. Go stick your head inside a toilet and PULL THE LEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!

DTCOFAZ| 9.10.10 @ 2:26PM

to STEVE A: you missed the important point completely. The act of burning the Quran doesnt' mean that it makes someone feel good of doing that.. The act of burning of the Quran proves that the call for tolerance applies to both sides.

obama/imam/muslim extremist supporters cannot ignore someone's loss and pain - and just keep pushing their muslim agenda forward without expecting the negative reaction from the the people who lost their love ones.

The people like you are easy to be fooled by the snake oil salesmen that try to brainwash and bully the American people.

It is ok to kill Christian believers, burn down the church, burn down the American flag. But oppose to building the mosque near ground zero, which likely receiving the funding from the extremists - all of the sudden become intolerant from your people's POV.

That's very sad and unfair opinion that you put out there, STEVE A.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 2:48PM

DTCOFAZ, Couple things: First off, read my prior post about Giants Stadium for clarity on my stance with the book blaze. Also: As for the ground zero gang I view it the same way I look at the wacky pastor in Fla. They both have the legal right to proceed, but they are both morally & ethically wrong to do so. PS: There is nothing unfair about an opinion. It is simply an opinion & you are free to disagree & be wrong!:)

eagles4ever| 9.10.10 @ 3:00PM

So much of this debate reminds me of a Dilbert strip, in which our beleagered everyman cubicle dwelling hero remarks:

"Never argue with idiots.
They just drag you down to their own level,
and then beat you with experience."

I would like to think that America is better than the Islamist "idiots".

Don't be dragged down to their level, even if it might feel sooooooooo good.

To justify a desecration of the Islamist religion just because some Islamist "idiots" desecrate Christianity -- or other symbols of enlightened western life -- would just be bringing us down to their level. We are exceptional, not lowly "idiots". Let's act like it.

Steve A| 9.10.10 @ 3:05PM

Eagle soars to rescue! Where have you been all day?? Whew. Have a good weekend all. Miller Time for Steve A.

Margie| 9.10.10 @ 4:53PM

Sorry but for your info the Islamist "Religion" is already desecrated. It is a murderous "Religion" and has nothing to do with the one true God. Burning it, if that is what anyone wishes to do is in fact a very Christian thing to do.

"And a number of those who practiced magic arts brought their books together and burned them in the sight of all; and they counted the value of them and found it came to fifty thousand pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord grew and prevailed mightily." Acts 19: 19 & 20.

Ah yes, exceptional, indeed!

eagles4ever| 9.10.10 @ 6:02PM

I think Dilbert has said all that needs to be said with respect to the intelligence of that uninformed rant.

Margie| 9.10.10 @ 6:14PM

Yes, because after all, "Dilbert" is as much a figment of the imagination as Muhammed is alive and well and enjoying his 70 virgins.

The Big E| 9.10.10 @ 4:56PM

Burning the Koran is not being "dragged down to their level." Being dragged down to their level would involve:

- Intentionally flying airplanes into buildings full of innocent people
- Setting bombs off in shopping malls and other places where innocent people want to just go about life and be left alone
- Driving cars into crowds of innocent people
- Machine gunning innocent people
- Beheading innocent people
- Mutilating innocent children

Need I go on?

eagles4ever| 9.10.10 @ 6:29PM

Brilliant reductionism. You really don't get out much do you and meet people who don't look like you?

Read the papers or watch the news (even Fox -- they love this kind of stuff). These things are being done all the time by non-Muslims too. There are simply kooks out there all over the place, although Muslims today seem to have more than their fair share of them.

For your consideration (I'm only allowed two links, but they suffice):

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010.....s-suicide/

http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp.....into-crowd

Oh, and can't forget all of those beheadings in the Arizona desert Jan Brewer referred to, can we.

And I don't suppose you remember the IRA do you?

And the genital mutilation of young bys regularly carried out by Jews and many Christians. And let's not even get started on all the other sins of the Catholic church -- a conspiracy of organized pederasts.

Need I go on?

Your formula is All Muslims = terrorists

That's just stupid.

Dilbert's wisdom stands.

loulou| 9.10.10 @ 10:43PM

Here we go again, another bit of lame moral equivalency idiocy.

Get over yourself, dhimmi.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 11:54AM

Eagles4ever,

Nice calumny against the Catholic Church.

How long have you been an anti-Catholic bigot?

Oldefarte| 9.10.10 @ 3:18PM

Andrew, I [and all TAS readers here] thoroughly appreaciate your extremely intelligent writings/editorials, BUT YOU ARE ENTIRELY WRONG ON THIS ISSUE! The is no [repeat none] EQUATION between the burning of Qurans/books and the MIDDLE FINGER SALUTE representated by the proposed mosque construction in NYC. The former is nothing more than the destruction of printed paper, and does absolutely no harm to either Muslims' Mohammed/god or to Muslims as human [or, IN] beings. Contrarily, the latter is an insult to the 3000 innocents who dies on 9/11/01 and is intended as such [Muslims have historically built their shrines at the destruction sites of Christian churches,etc]. More to the point, YOU [AND EVERY OTHER INTELLIGENT PERSON] IS AWARE OF THIS FACT. Your editorial is a typical attempt at POLITICAL CORRECTNESS to soothe the hostility now occurring among Muslims worldwide over this THREAT [NOT ACTUAL] of burning Qurans by this Florida minister. Your intention of PLEASE DON'T GET ANGRY AT US AMERICANS to Muslims over this is cowardly and useless in preventing their moronic outrage over inconsequential things such as derogatory cartoons/drawings and Quran burnings. Is the burning of a book equal [the same as] the burning of human beings [ie from jet fuel inside the twin towers on 9/11/01] ? I [and all of us] know that it is not so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NotALibertarian| 9.10.10 @ 3:34PM

Boston. Tea. Party. Civil?

DTCOFAZ| 9.10.10 @ 3:44PM

Well said.. well said.. Oldefarte.

Cannot find any better words to describe the cowardness of this administration, and the frustration from the American people that have to put up with this insensitive decision of building the mosque near ground zero.

GENE HAUBER| 9.10.10 @ 3:45PM

mr gill o teen,
nice thoughts from a tolerant me3mber of the peaceful religion of islam.
what to be expected
savages od the sadist, mysogynistic type who get off on seeing women beheaded and stone3d. HOW SICK CAN YOU AND ALLAH BE

noneofyourbusiness| 9.10.10 @ 3:55PM

At the risk of interjecting some useful facts and reason into this debate...

Just an interesting point to take note of here -- the current building has been used for the past year or so by the infamous Imam as a "mosque". Prayer etc goes on there regularly.

So this can carry on in a dilapidated eyesore of an old building, or can carry on in a beautiful new building that will inject millions of dollars into the local economy and create many much needed construction jobs.

Rather than seeing this as a symbol of Islam trying to poke America in the eye, why not consider an alternative interpretation that it is trying to make the opposite point. As per Politifacts

http://www.politifact.com/trut.....ound-zero/

"In an Aug. 8, 2010, story in Newsweek, Daisy Khan, wife of Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who would lead the mosque, said the location had symbolic import. "We want to provide a counter momentum against extremism. We want peace, and we want it where it matters most. This is where it matters most."

The plan for the center includes a September 11th memorial, Gamal said in his interview with altmuslim.com, "and quiet reflection space where people of different faith traditions and beliefs, sacred and secular, can find quiet time and solace."

While we're considering the term "Ground Zero Mosque," we also wondered whether it was proper to call the project a mosque. A mosque is, in fact, planned there, but it's part of a plan for a much larger, $100 million cultural center. According to the project web site , plans include a swimming pool, gym and basketball court, a 500-seat auditorium, a restaurant and culinary school, exhibitions, education programs, a library, reading room, art studios and childcare services. Organizers say the center would be open to all New Yorkers, regardless of faith, and would promote cultural diversity. The center would be overseen by a 23-member Board of Directors and they say membership will not be limited to Muslims. But the center would be geared toward "engaging New York’s many and diverse Muslim communities and promoting empowerment and compassion for all."

A mosque is also planned, though according to the site it would be run separately from the rest of the facilities. According to Gamal, the mosque would not tolerate "any kind of illegal or unAmerican activity and rhetoric." Imam Rauf has been leading prayer services in one of the buildings since 2009.

Again, we realize many politicians and media figures are using the phrase the "Ground Zero Mosque" -- or as Lazio did, "a mosque at Ground Zero" -- as shorthand to describe the controversial project. It's nearby -- close enough to carry symbolic value to those who oppose it, and even to those proposing the project. But we think those characterizations often give the misimpression that the project is either on the old World Trade Center site or immediately next to it. And that's not right. And so we rate the claim Barely True."

Just a few facts to consider. But don't let that disturb your beliefs.

Cheers!

DVG93| 9.10.10 @ 3:58PM

I won't.

Hate to be redundant, but....

"The study of taqiyya is crucial to an understanding of Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism.It is most frequently used by Muslim 'spokesmen' whilst intentionally making misleading public statements concerning Islam and terrorism. "
Understanding Taqiyya ― Islamic Principle of Lying for the Sake of Allah
by Warner MacKenzie

30 April, 2007

noneofyourbusiness| 9.10.10 @ 4:15PM

The word ‘Taqiyya’ literally means: ‘Concealing, precaution, guarding.’ It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking.

I hardly think there is anything unique to Islam about this. Isn't this "technique" part of Candidate 101 schools and business admin. programs (to say nothing of the practices of the Catholic Church)?

Anyhow, I'm sure you are not the type to allow facts to penetrate the world inhabited by your beliefs. The fact that you haul out cranks as sources who simply speak to your bigotry says enough. Keep on believing what you will, but it won't lead you to enlightenment or the truth -- nor any of us to a better world. Try opening your mind.

Cheers!

DVG93| 9.10.10 @ 4:48PM

Unique or not, it is a codified tenet of the cult. I went to Germany. An old German questioned my feelings towards them. My reply was my antipathy was not toward Germans, but towards Nazis.

Think you can manage to stretch that into something other than your arguement that I must be a bigot because I find an evil ideology distastefull?

Later gator

noneofyourbusiness| 9.10.10 @ 5:57PM

I won't bother stretching anything and just rest my case, taking heed of the sage advice relayed above (via Dilbert) by eagles4ever.

Cheers!

Jeremiah| 9.10.10 @ 7:47PM

Oh gosh, noneofyourbusiness, such wisdom from on high! Such sublime enlightenment! Thank you for coming to help us rubes quit bitterly clinging to our guns and religion so we can see the beauty of these jihadists who charmingly cling to their beheading knives and stones.

Oh, one little fact you neglected to mention...Imam Rauf, like all the other silver-tongued devils sent to beguile idiot liberals in the west, does not condemn Hamas or Hezbollah because "it is complicated." You see, the silver-tongued ones do not define specifically targeting and murdering innocent civilians and holding victory celebrations over the murder of of children to be acts of terror. They consider that to be acts of 'resistance.'

So do both us and yourself a favor. Take your condescending pap and jam it right up your a**, because we folksies aren't buying what clowns like you are peddling any more.

NotALibertarian| 9.10.10 @ 3:58PM

I honestly don't know what to make of this current dust-up, but I just want to say that for all this hand-wringing from conservatives about the incivility of this public demonstration, I am convinced that if America had faced this kind of Muslim problem 100 years ago, we would have had Koran-burnings in communities across the country as a matter of course.

DVG93| 9.10.10 @ 4:00PM

100 years ago? Try the Jefferson presidency.

He didn't burn books, he sent the US Marines.

Ever heard about the shores of Tripoli?

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 12:19AM

Ever heard of the Barbary Treaties?

Ever heard of article 11, affirmed unanimously by the Senate?

"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

cchaseCFI| 9.10.10 @ 4:11PM

The point is if printing cartoons and burning a book will send these people into a tizzy rioting and demonstrating then the enemying is show us its weak spot. It means that we can perform a non-viloent act and make them crazy any time we want.
I believe when you find the enemy's vulnerable spot you should exploit it, and keep doing it until it no longer works. If 300Million Americans do it, they will be constantly rioting and self destructing. When they are ready to calm down and show some mutual respect, we can begin to bring them into the 21st century. Its like an adolescent child who goes into a temper tantrum because you take away their 4 lollypop. You put them in their room and advise them that they can come out when they are ready behave.

The very exhistance of our 1st ammendment makes it self evedent that noone has a constitutional right to NOT be offended. I have the right to offend anyone I want. I think most Amaericans are offended when we see the flag burned. As a christian I am offended when I see a cross in a jar of urine and dung on the Virgin Mary painting.However it won't send me into a crazy violent rant.

They can only yell death to America so many times. They have been doing for decades, so what? Remember when they found the jihad manifesto in the belongings left behind by the 911 killers they found the reasons they were jihading America. The 1st 4 items were:

1)We allow our women to dress like whores. 2) We allow our women to go out in public with their face uncovered. 3) We permit the manufacture and consumption of alchohol. 4) We permit the production and viewing of pornography, (most of what comes out of Hollywood would be considered porn.

They have had plenty of reasons to hate us for years. This won't increase the violence. Who knows, maybe they even calm down and behave themselves.

Fredrick Ward| 9.10.10 @ 4:29PM

I personally think the flag of the United States of America is more precious than the Koran, and people burn that all the time with the support of the court system. Muslims burn our flags, bibles, and there is a non-stop retinue of cursing our very existence from their lips. Why should I be bothered with caring whether a Koran is burned or not? Will it change their level of hatred towards us? No. Even if it did increase the level of hatred they already want to kill us and dominate us. Therefore, I see no real consequence to the act of returning the favor. Yet, we hear the government all up in arms about it. These same people in Washington will not stand up with the same outrage against the burning of our flag, and desecration of other religious icons that do not have to do with Islam, though. So, to hell with the Muslims who are offended and to hell with the politicians who speak out against it. My ears are deaf and my eyes are blind to their 'pain', and their mimicked outrage. Muslims, go have a pork chop on me, and politicians we're coming for you in the fall. Pack your gear because you're going home, and hopefully that home is outside of the United States of America.

gary siebel| 9.10.10 @ 4:32PM

Quite frankly, the polarization and extremism stems from Kenneth Starr's fishing expedition against Clinton, and the Repubs attempt at a coup de tat. The liberals felt they got ambushed, that they didn't respond strongly enough, so they overcompensate today. This, in turn, has led to the extreme elements of the right wing to escalate even further, because they have always tended to favor violence more anyway, the left often being too wussy to fight, and so it goes, back and forth, with increasing fury.

rdman| 9.10.10 @ 5:19PM

Who said many years ago... "Beware the treachery of Arabs (Muslims)."

Is there such a thing as "moderate Muslims" (dancing in the streets after 9/11)?? Or are these so-called moderate Muslims hiding in the bushes waiting for orders??

Are We the People still living in the United States of America??

noneofyourbusiness| 9.10.10 @ 6:52PM

I believe it was you on another story in TAS

http://spectator.org/archives/2010/08/24/the-mosque

rdman| 8.24.10 @ 3:41PM
I'm an ex-Canadian and who said: Beware the treachery of Arabs...

All the other hits I get for some construction like this refers to another religion.

Brilliant to cite yourself to support yourself. Pure genius.

Cheers!

rdman| 9.11.10 @ 1:05AM

OK... So who stated many years ago and recently, "Beware the treachery of Arabs?"

British Captain Timothy Edward Lawrence, better known as Lawrence of Arabia, 1916, referring to the Al Saud family.

Recently: The former Israeli premier Ariel Sharon was once quoted as saying that Israel’s strongest weapon is Arab disunity and treachery towards each other. I am ashamed to say that his statement contains elements of truth.

Nadwa Arar, Khaleej Times

So what has changed in the Arab Muslim World that so many silly Liberals are trying to appease??

eagles4ever| 9.10.10 @ 7:00PM

You must be living in a different America than I, rdman. There are plenty of moderate Muslims. Even secular Muslims (like secular Jews, secular Christians -- although all strike me as a bit of an oxymoron, but I guess the idea is that while they may pray and go to church and believe in a Creator -- and Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the same God, they just all think the others got the understanding wrong -- they don't let their religion govern their life).

You really need to get out more and meet people who don't look like you. You might even discover that they like football, baseball and rock music (I even know some who drink!). You might even find that you have something in common. You might even find a new friend. Now wouldn't that be something? Maybe you could teach them something. Wouldn't that be fine? Hatred is not going to get us anywhere, except closer to the Apocalypse.

rdman| 9.10.10 @ 8:42PM

Aside from your snide, smart-ass remarks, when Sharia Law is accept by our judicial system as has been demanded by some Muslims, do you really believe that your so-called moderate Muslims are not going to comply in the face of mutilation, death by stoning and other 7th century barbaric beliefs and acts. What do you think that might mean for We the People infidels??

Your naivety, political correctness and arrogant ignorance is epitomized by your playing of the hatred card... just who was dancing in the streets after 9/11 ????

Fredrick Ward| 9.11.10 @ 11:56AM

"-- and Jews, Christians and Muslims all believe in the same God"

eagles4ever,
You are out of your mind if you believe that. The differences between the God of the Jews, and Christians to the God of Islam is so extreme it cannot be measured. The God of Christianity extends grace and forgiveness while the God of Islam extends no promises that anyone, even faithful Muslims, have a chance at paradise; save the suicidal bomber who kills others in the process of taking his own life. The God of Islam's commands are to beat your wife and children, visit horrors on those who do not believe, and their court system, based on the laws of Mohammed, are brutal at best. You, sir, have no idea of that which you speak.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 3:06PM

Frederick, this is utter nonsense. You might actually read the Qu'ran before you spout off about it. "Surely the believers and the Jews, Nazareans [Christians] and the Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day, and whosoever does right, shall have his reward with his Lord, and will neither have fear nor regret." Al Qu'ran 2:62.

WAKE UP| 9.10.10 @ 5:37PM

MEMO EVERYBODY : if you’re all such experts on what causes “Muslim outrage” en masse, explain why 9/11 didn’t.

----------------------------------
ps – here’s Michelle Malkin on the permanent flammability of Muslims:
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=38938

FeralCat| 9.10.10 @ 5:47PM

Apparently a leading international Islamic body has called for outlawing the Koran.

“(CNSNews.com) – Following the uproar over the threatened burning of the Quran by a small Florida church, a leading international Islamic body said Thursday that the United Nations should outlaw “all forms of offense against religions.””

If “all forms of offense against religions.” were outlawed, then the Koran would be outlawed as it is absolutely permeated with all manner of offenses, and worse, against Jews and Christians and others.

2wrongs| 9.10.10 @ 6:31PM

If everybody wants to feel so superior to the radical muslim terrorists, why would you stoop to their level and burn a book. People want to demonstrate that we are not afraid of them and how upset we are with them, but all this will really do is offend the muslims that live here peacefully as productive members of our society. Burning the Holy book of Islam is a wasted demonstration and completely pointless - it's a publicity stunt from someone trying for their 15minutes of fame. Stop this now, it's not too late.

Flipside| 9.10.10 @ 6:34PM

Separated at birth , Terry Jones, the Gainesville, FL, preacher = Will Geer as Bear Claw Chris Lapp, from the movie, Jeremiah Johnson

scythe| 9.10.10 @ 7:02PM

Yeah? And where did our "civility" get us? Answer that one. Honestly if you can. I believe in civility too. As long as the other side is playing by the same rule book. The time for cucumber sandwiches and white gloves is way over. Forty years of our civility has squeezed us into a left wing prison cell with the walls closing in. Your commentary is surreal and fantastical because it has nothing to do with the fact that we are being destroyed. In fact, the radical Muslims are counting on our "civility" They consider it WEAKNESS. At this point, so do I.

cchaseCFI| 9.10.10 @ 7:08PM

My point.....

So lets burn 'em.

Where do I get a koran? Does Barns and Noble sell em?

If I find one, I'll burn the sucker.

jack| 9.10.10 @ 7:21PM

If the minister had a grant from the NEA would the liberal elite defend his right to burn the Koran ?

At least taxpayer dollars are not funding his publicity stunt.

Remember Piss Christ ? the NEA paid the photographer 15 grand for urinating on a crucifix in the eighties. About 30,000 in todays dollars

scythe| 9.10.10 @ 9:16PM

If the minister had a grant from the NEA would the liberal elite defend his right to burn the Koran ?

BRILLIANT!!!!!!

ABNCP| 9.10.10 @ 10:02PM

Sorry for coming late to this party. I think the Koran has had enough PR. I've noticed that all over the Muslim world they are burning American flags. Thinking back to 9/11 when the bastards killed over 3,000 of us they were burning American flags throughout the Muslim world as well and dancing in the streets with joy. Well, 9 /11 is coming up again tomorrow. I'm thinking I will see if I can find a pile of their flags and start a little bonfire in my yard, use the fire to roast some pork sausages and dance naked around the fire.
(just kidding about the naked part) that would be really ugly and I don't want to scare the neighbors.
I will not believe their are moderate Muslims until I see them protesting radical Islam publicly, loudly and frequently. So far not so much. I hope all on this site will be flying the American Flag tomorrow. Never forget.

Ray| 9.10.10 @ 10:35PM

I'll tell you what is truly unacceptable here, by my standards anyways, and that the manufactured controversy that the media has fostered on us all. If it wasn't for the coverage of this "controversy" of "burning Koran's,) no one outside the man's congregation would even know about it!

This is a media manufactured controversy, one that is being perpetrated by so-called "professional journalists" just to inflame passions as a means to sell their news service. That is disgusting! It's also very transparent.

Sham on the Americans Spectator for wallowing in the media's quest for sensationalism and "controversy." You're supposed to be better than they are, but you're not much different at all, for you give as much coverage to what should be ignored, and, thus, forgotten, as the rest of the tabloid providers we call modern journalists.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 1:42AM

The frenzy of ignorance and hate on this thread reaches a new low, even for TAS. You all would have done Hitler proud, really.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 12:09PM

Actually, Hitler would be proud of Obama, IMHO.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 12:37PM

Decidedly not, Margie. Hitler had no tolerance for the American "melting pot"; he wouldn't even shake the great Jessee Owens' hand. Like Shiela, and so many on this site, he was a White Supremecist. He would be appalled that Americans had elected Obama president.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:39PM

RCV,

If Hitler was such a white-supremecist, why was he an ally of the Japs? Or, as Margie has so astutely pointed out, the Moslems?

Hitler was a user of people for his own gains.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 3:01PM

Of course Hitler was a user of people for his own gains. Are you seriously contending he was not a White Supremecist?

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 3:14PM

RCV,

I'm just asking the question.

Hitler also hated Slavs, and they were white. I've always wondered how someone who was supposed to be a white supremecist could ally himself with people with yellow skin. Or, Moslems. Do you have an answer?

The more I learn about Hitler, the more I come to the conclusion he was Satanic. Not a satan worshiper with black robes. But, someone who has rejected God completely, and did the bidding of Satan: Destroying humanity.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 3:41PM

I agree fully with that assessment of Hitler. He was Satanic. He was certainly no Christian, nor did he profess to be. Hitler was willing to use what he considered "subhuman" peoples for his own machinations. He despised any "non-Aryan" peoples, which he limited to the Germanic tribes, Nordic nations and Anglo-Saxons. Everyone else was sub-human. He was an utter devil.

NotALibertarian| 9.11.10 @ 3:57PM

. . . so, RCV, Hitler was a devil . . . what was Mohammed?

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 5:06PM

RCV,

Soooo.......does that mean that the term "white supremecist" does not accurately describe Hitler?

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 5:22PM

No, it's quite accurate. Read Mein Kampf. He just had a very narrow view of who was in the White Race, and considered Slavs and Mediterranean Europeans to be mongrels.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 5:51PM

RCV,

Hitler was very close to Mussolini. He rescued him from being captured. Also, he didn't hate the British, at the beginning, but by the end of the war he wanted Britain wiped off the map.

Calling Hitler a white supremecist is way to simplistic for my liking. Nazi beliefs are bizarre and frightening. As G.K. Chesterton not so famously wrote:

"It's the first effect of not believing in God that you lose your common sense."
-The Oracle of the Dog (1923), and

"You hard-shelled materialists were all balanced on the very edge of belief - of belief in almost anything."
- The Miracle of Moon Crescent (1924)

Margie| 9.12.10 @ 12:21AM

"It's the first effect of not believing in God that you lose your common sense."
-The Oracle of the Dog (1923), and

Wow. That describes Liberals/Leftists perfectly. What's good is evil to them and vice versa~ the end result precisely of the loss of common sense.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 6:04PM

Only one of many examples: "If one were to divide mankind into three groups: culture-founders, culture-bearers, and culture- destroyers, then as representative of the first kind, only the Aryan would come in question. It is from him that the foundation and the walls of all human creations originate ... The blood-mixing, however, with the lowering of the racial level caused by it, is the sole cause of the dying-off of old cultures; for the people do not perish by lost wars, but by the loss of that force of resistance which is contained only in the pure blood. All that is not race in this world is trash.". Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf 398-406 (Reynal & Hitchcock, unabridged edition 1941).

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 7:29PM

RCV,

Your quote proves my point.
It would be more accurate to call Hitler an Aryan supremecist, would it not?

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 8:08PM

Really, Nick, enough.

Nick| 9.12.10 @ 4:18PM

RCV,

Yes, I kind of feel like Ali asking Patterson, "What's my name?"

You have had enough. I won't pummel you longer.

RCV| 9.12.10 @ 6:45PM

Thanks. You're a genuinely good guy, and I enjoy our exchanges. Be well.

Nick| 9.13.10 @ 12:34AM

RCV,

Your welcome. You're a decent fellow, yourself. I, also, enjoy these tête-à-tête debates of ours.
Have a good one.

NotALibertarian| 9.11.10 @ 2:54PM

Obama has no tolerance for the"melting pot" either. He and his ilk keep insisting that we need to be a salad bowl.
And, Hitler would love Obama. Not because Obama agrees with everything Hitler believed (he doesn't), but because of Obama's own belief system. It would have set Obama up to be an ideal useful idiot.

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 12:46PM

You are a foolish person, Margie. I honestly don't think you know enough about history to understand how morally insane and utterly stupid this remark is. If you did know, you'd be too ashamed to make it. This opinion is not humble. It's brazenly arrogant and completely ignorant. For humility, try submitting your errant attention to some good information provided by actual historians about who and want Hitler was. Then, I think, you'll be truly, and appropriately, humbled.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 2:04PM

Nate,

Thank God I'm a fool in your eyes! For that I'm thankful.

Hitler aligned himself with the Muslims, and so does your pal, Obama. Read your history then get back to me, liar.

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 2:47PM

Margie,

You are a stupid CUNT.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:51PM

Nate the dazi,

What a amazing rebuttal. How tolerant of you!

What a moron.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 3:09PM

Nate, that kind of mysoginist name-calling is beneath you. Stop it.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 4:11PM

Actually there isn't much beneath him. Liberal Reader with the new moniker, Nate.

joli| 9.11.10 @ 5:21PM

Nope, in fact it's perfectly in keeping with his tiny little... character.

Charles Stevens| 9.11.10 @ 4:00AM

Mr. Cline couldn't be further off the mark, because in fact he is no Conservative. It should be obvious that burning a Koran serves as the quintessential litmus test for our society in general, and more specifically each segment that has a stake in whatever outcome may ensue. This involves far more than the threat of burning a Koran; instead the act itself must be accomplished in order to finally determine how each such group will actually respond. This elemental kind of test, along with a realistic discussion have been sorely lacking up to now.

Burning a Koran provides a necessary provocation: Islam, the religion that is perpetually offended, must be disabused of any conceit that its belief system is immune from criticism, denunciation, or if it comes to it, ultimate expulsion. In Western culture, every other belief system is subject to admiration or contempt, but Islam has attempted to remove itself from this process as some type of immune special case. Thus it is long past due to test so-called moderate Moslems as to just how far their moderation actually extends.

For the vast majority of us, how will we ever know that we won't do something extreme on its face because we're better people, or instead because we are deeply albeit secretly afraid? We will never find out until & unless we complete the act... thus the act is absolutely essential.

In another important sense, it has managed to expose our entire leadership class as gutless wonders, as well as expose the basis of true belief for those such as Mr. Cline who call themselves Conservatives. So far they have not only objected, but objected on the basis of a liberal position (i.e., the absolute right of self-expression), not a Conservative position (i.e., the defense of our civilization against its enemies).

Burning a Koran is correct, and is essential for our society to move forward. We have an existential threat to our civilization, both from within and without... it is long past time that we force the discussion on all parties, and thereby resolve what has to be done for our survival and the future of our children.

GreginOkinawa| 9.11.10 @ 7:40AM

They can build a Mosque at Ground Zero when we can build a Church in Mecca...

Michele San Pietro| 9.11.10 @ 7:45AM

When I was a child, two friends of mine were playing Subbuteo, a sort of table soccer. One of them made a hardly allowed move which allowed to him to easily score a goal. The other one said: "Now I'll do it again, then it will no longer be valid". He also scored a goal by the same incorrect move, then the latter was never used again during the match. That's why I see nothing wrong with burning the Koran today. This is nothing in comparison to the shit that Americans and Christians are forced to bear every single day.

martin j smith| 9.11.10 @ 8:47AM

If I as a sole individual decided to burn a Koran or anything else that might get people excited or angry.

For me the REAL ISSUE IS WHY A GUY ( A PASTOR OF A CHURCH OF A WHOLE 50 PEOPLE) is now all over the media and in fact all over the world. This could not have happened without the support of the media ( the MSM ). This is the real question that is being ignored.
And, who is this guy really anyway ? is he a nut job or is he a stooge for the LEFT ? He appearance is certainly "convenient".
Sp for me this particular episode has nothing to do with civility or the Constitution. It is about Manipulating the news and the views of same

Big J| 9.11.10 @ 9:51AM

Wow. I had to read this tripe twice. Still hard to believe that it was written by Andrew Cline.

I wonder if Mr. Cline took some time this morning to revisit the horror that took place 9 years ago today?

Here's a question for ya, Andrew:

As you watch the towers get struck, burn then fall:

As you see the Pentagon burning:

When you look at the gaping hole left in the ground in Pennsylvania by flight 93:

When you watch the innocent people jumping to their death from 100 stories up to avoid burning alive:

What is the first thing that comes to mind?

"Gosh, I wish we were just a little more civil"?

"Maybe if we hadn't been so mean to those peaceful Muslims, they wouldn't have hurt us so."

I'll let you know what goes through my mind, and it has nothing to do with tolerance.

I feel ANGRY!

I want to annihilate these radical fools!

You will have to pardon me for not being "civil" and "tolerant". This attitude of apathy is precisely what provoked the attacks on that day.

Mr. Andrew Cline, I recommend you watch the following video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qg_iDPRud_c

We have not forgotten, nor will we ever forget.

Anybody got a match?

Wayne Myers| 9.11.10 @ 10:03AM

I'm a rhinestone raghead...da, da, daaaa.....

What's the Arabic translation for "Yeeeehaaaw"?

"JiiiiHaaaad"

Wayne Myers| 9.11.10 @ 10:15AM

I don't think Terry Jones really wanted to burn the Koran if he's really a Christian. But, this guy with a congregation of 50 got people like me to go to his website, see he has a book for sale, buy his book, send donations and Korans. He can have a yard sale with the books. Did you ever notice how our president continuously mentions the "Holy" Koran, but I've never heard him mention the "Holy Bible"?

My God (a different one than Allah) told Ishmael that he'd be causing trouble for everybody. What was the population of the world back then? I don't recall when the mention of the two hundred million army coming from the east was mentioned during the final conflict. So, it appears to me that the Chinese aren't gonna' put up with this Islam stuff.

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 12:53PM

Wayne,

I'm not sure about your second paragraph, which seems a bit flakey and simplistic (reading the Old Testament as a literally true account of history leads to some rather big problems).

However, your first paragraph makes a big, important point about this "pastor" in Florida. ALL he talks about is the Koran. But he doesn't seem very interested in the Bible. That is pretty interesting -- and telling.

The evangelical pastors who are speaking out against this "pastor" in Florida are offering a truly Christian example to the country and to the world.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 1:59PM

Reading the Old testament as history literally IS a big problem for unbelievers, yes.

And therefore since you do not believe God's words you have no authority or correct judgement on the pastor's heart.

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 2:44PM

In what year do the events of the Book of Job take place?

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 3:05PM

Nate the dazi,

Probably during the time of the patriachs, but definitely after the Flood.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 4:05PM

In what year was God born?

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:43PM

"ALL he talks about is the Koran. But he doesn't seem very interested in the Bible."
- Nate the dazi

You have no idea what this pastor talks about. What a ridiculous statement. You had never heard of this guy, until a couple of weeks ago.

Your cheap shots are exposing your ignorance, Nate.

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 2:46PM

Nick,

You and this pastor are two peas in a pod. You've found a friend, Nick! Congratulations. Enjoy your book burnings. American society is forgetting you and the handful of bigots with whom you associate yourself.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:58PM

Nate the dazi,

How many times do I have remind you that I am a Roman Catholic. I hate no one. Even you.

I feel sorry for you. Because of your blind hatred for those on the right and Christians. You are a slave to your master, Satan. I'll pray for you, Nate.
God Bless!

joli| 9.11.10 @ 5:49PM

That army was raised AFTER Jesus' 1000 year reign on earth. And they're not Chinese, they are from all nations. Rev 20:7"When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore."

And for those who would like to point out that the earth is not square and doesn't have corners and that therefore people who believe the Bible are stupid, IT'S A METAPHOR. The four corners part, not the army part.

Further, the army will be warring against God's People. At least, they will be planning to... they never actually get to before they are thrown down.

If there are any muslims at this point, it will not be through lineage, because at the beginning of Christ's 1000 year reign, all non-believers will already be dead. The army will be raised from people who were born during Christ's reign but managed to allow themselves to be deceived despite the evidence right in front of them.

Felix| 9.11.10 @ 10:17AM

If burning Korans is something Muslims believe that Allah simply will not permit, then let them put their money where their mouth is. We can turn the table s on the "religion of peace", by holding their Korans hostage. For a mere $1000 we will turn over 1 Koran which will be spared from burning or flushing. We'll see how many Muslims come to the rescue of their holy Korans.

martin j smith| 9.11.10 @ 10:27AM

Again is this Joens guy a " Useful idiot"* nut job or is he a stooge of the LEFT
* Clinically speaking"nut job" means delusional.

gsr| 9.11.10 @ 11:43AM

It's time to realize Islam does not belong in the USA and most Western nations. Restrict Mohammedan immigration, deport moooslims out of the USA, since many here are not citizens, we can lower their numbers and thus their political power by deporting a large percentage of them.

Islam is the enemy. Wake up and realize it. Neo-con fools.

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 12:57PM

GSR

What you've written here -- aside from being hateful bigotry, inimical to the American Way -- is also just false.

Millions of Muslims live and have lived for generations in this country, and they have lived here peacefully.

I'm sorry to say it, GSR. It's bigots like YOU who are un-American. You are now apart of the group that American society is passing by -- without regret.

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 1:57PM

Often I hear conservatives express dismay and exasperation when their critics wonder how much differing forms of bigotry motive Tea Partiers and the like.

Well... See thread above.

It's amazing how much fear, intolerance, and hatred you are willing to accept among yourselves.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 2:21PM

It's amazing how you stick to your lies about conservatives while at the same time continuing to back this lying President. Who today tells the world this"
"They may seek to spark conflict between different faiths, but as Americans we are not -- and never will be -- at war with Islam. It was not a religion that attacked us that September day -- it was al-Qaeda, a sorry band of men which perverts religion."

See folks~ we are not at war with Islam! It's just a sorry band of men. (Who got their instructions form the Koran to kill the infidels but we won't go there, will we?) No~ it's the terrible people who call themselves Christians and conservatives that are the problem here~ THEY seek to make all the trouble!

Ah yes, welcome to the ObamaNation, folks! Take your side now, you may well be called to account for it by paying with your very life. What's next? Shall we be thrown in jail like they were in Australia recently for just reading the Koran in public? You better believe it's next.

The answer? The only answer~ we had better get out in droves to vote this man out of office. IN DROVEp.s. Isn't it interesting how Obama is painting himself as "a man of peace?"

Nate| 9.11.10 @ 2:42PM

Obama's statements about those with whom we are at war reflect Bush's. Bush said the same kinds of things throughout his presidency.

Indeed, the vast majority of Republicans say the same kinds of things about terrorism.

It's only a minority of bigots -- to which you, Margie, belong -- who believe in your ignorance and contemptible fearfulness that we are somehow at war with Islam.

Despite how small your numbers are, however, you are helping Bin Laden achieve one of his main objectives.

The terrorist does not hope to strike a country like ours so hard it brings us down.

The terrorist hopes to provoke a country into over-reaction, thus destabilizing it from within.

A free society is built on tolerance, pluralism, and respect for religious differences. To the extent that Bin Laden has recruited you and many of your friends here, he has achieved a considerable victory.

But in the end, Margie, you and your bigot friends will LOSE.

The vast majority of Americans are too decent, too tolerant, and too strong to be swayed by your hatred and hysteria. We are not a cowardly people, and sooner or later, we see brazen, arrogant, bigotry for what it, at bottom, is: cowardice.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 2:48PM

Nate the dazi,

All liberals are cowards.
They are the first ones to try to appease our enemies, and then run away from the fight when it begins.

NotALibertarian| 9.11.10 @ 3:16PM

Nate,
You seem confident that anyone who disagrees with you is a bigot or racist. That is unfortunate. The altar of multiculturalism in which you clearly place blind faith may protect you from being considered a racist in your own mind, but it is just a self-righteous mask, and not a very good one at that.

There is nothing learned or sophisticated about your committed refusal to draw distinctions between good ideologies and bad ones.
What you do not seem to understand is that the Koran calls for the annihilation of America -- that means you, your family, everyone who is not Muslim. Your defense of Islam is, whether you realize it or not, a defense of the ultimate bigotry -- one that requires its followers to destroy the objects of their hate.

Christianity does not call for the annihilation of those who do not follow it. That is one of many important differences between Christianity and Islam.

NotALibertarian| 9.11.10 @ 3:48PM

That's weird. You say, "A free society is built on tolerance, pluralism, and respect for religious differences. "
But Islam -- that Koran people were thinking of burning -- eschews tolerance, pluralism, and respect for religious differences. Pluaralism & religious differences are supposed to be wiped out through jihad -- either cutting people's heads off, or stoning, I think.

Shouldn't you be lecturing a zealous Muslim somewhere, instead of lecturing this Margie person for voicing her concerns about Islam's intolerant beliefs? I mean, I'm surprised you don't see that you and Margie are pretty much on the same side, here, considering how fond you are of glossing over differences.

joli| 9.11.10 @ 6:15PM

I'm not a racist, I'm a realist. The reality is we have no way of seeing into the hearts of muslims who live in America to determine whether they are "moderates" or true believers, and it is dangerous to assume that they are trustworthy.

I am angry that our government has become a company of appeasers, and I am angry that muslims are allowed to carry on subverting our country with the sanction of our government. The symbolism of burning the unholy books would be deeply satisfying to me; nevertheless, I would never shed another person's blood unless they were in the act of trying to shed mine or my family's. I haven't seen anyone in this discussion advocating killing them all--but to allow a system inimical to our own to have free rein on our own soil, is sheer foolishness. Ignore what they say and watch what they do and who they associate with, and it will be easy to figure out who needs to be shipped back to where they came from.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 4:03PM

"The terrorist does not hope to strike a country like ours so hard it brings us down."

No, of course not. They only like to see hundreds of Americans jumping out of mile high buildings to their deaths, you retard.

JP| 9.12.10 @ 10:44AM

"Obama's statements about those with whom we are at war reflect Bush's. Bush said the same kinds of things throughout his presidency...Indeed, the vast majority of Republicans say the same kinds of things about terrorism."

Which reflects the disasterous assumptions Bush made concerning Islam. Which also is why many Republicans got buried in elections circa 2006-2008 elections. After a decades since 9/11 Islam in this nation has officially feared (see General Patreaous's statements). Islam will build thier Rabat on Ground Zero (I will leave it to you to find the Islamic definition of Rabat).

"It's only a minority of bigots -- to which you, Margie, belong -- who believe in your ignorance and contemptible fearfulness that we are somehow at war with Islam....Despite how small your numbers are, however, you are helping Bin Laden achieve one of his main objectives."

If 70% is a small minority, you need to return to the 6th grade. And it is you who are confused. To say we are at war with terrorism is an absurdity. To say that is to say that we were at war with Japanese Zero's or German King Tiger Tanks during World War II. I suggest you read up on the Fall of Byzantium. Byzantium during the Middle Ages, was much like the US in that it was powerful, highly sophisticated, and confident, as well as proud. Over a period of 3-5 centuries it slowly lost ground. In the 15th Century it fell.

"A free society is built on tolerance, pluralism, and respect for religious differences. To the extent that Bin Laden has recruited you and many of your friends here, he has achieved a considerable victory...But in the end, Margie, you and your bigot friends will LOSE."

Nate, your threats and exaltations could have been issued by a Muslim. In light of the world-wide violence committed by Muslims from Niger, Kosovo, Somalis, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Thailand, the Philippines, and Indonesia, you remain stubbornly ignorant of thier actions. Catholics in Iraq in 6 years have been either run out or murdered, or forced to convert. In Egpyt, Coptic Christians are being sold into slavery; in Lebanon, the Marionite Catholics get murdered on a daily basis. In Europe, anti-semitisim is on the rise due to Islamic attacks.

And Nate, it is the liberals who are cowards. Just think of it, the threatened Koran burning by 50 misfits caused not only the President, but the Secretary of State and General Patreous to cringe in fear. Dhimmi Nate, you need to dispense with your Jewish name (Nathan), and adopt to the religion you truly believe in. Perhaps Abdullah fits you better.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 2:45PM

You may be at war with Islam, Margie, but our country isn't. Both our past President, George Bush, and our current one, have reaffirmed this. Yes, the band of thugs who destroyed the World Trade Center and who have slaughtered Americans, innocent Muslims and others around the world, have twisted the Qu'ran for their own evil purposes. But then again, you've managed to take a religion of love, peace and respect -- Christianity -- and turn it into one of screeching hatred also. So very sad what narrow-minded religious zeal can produce. Jesus weeps.

Margie| 9.11.10 @ 3:59PM

Twisted the Koran? How do you twist where it says to "Kill the infidels?" Hmm, Obama lover?

NotALibertarian| 9.11.10 @ 4:04PM

Sorry, RCV, but you really do come across as an Obama lover.

NotALibertarian| 9.11.10 @ 4:51PM

All this talk of Christianity from you is a little hard to understand, RCV. It isn't Christian to run around saying there's NOTHING wrong with homosexuality, either, but you do not seem particularly interested in True Christianity when it comes to that topic. Why is that?

RCV| 9.12.10 @ 12:52AM

I don't consider homosexuality to be a sin, NotALibertarian, just as most modern Christian theologians don't. Christ himself never uttered a word about homosexuality, and his focus was not on the OT sexual preoccupations. Just as with slavery, polygamy, misogyny and the numerous other manifestations of early Hebrew culture, the prejudice against homosexuals was primitive and cultural. We live in the 21st century now. We know the sun doesn't revolve around the earth, we know the universe is older than the authors of the Bible believed it to be, we know that various species of life were not created suddenly but evolved from more primitive life forms, we know that women don't have to be hidden away while menstruating because they're supposedly "unclean", we know it's OK to sit down and break bread with people who aren't from our tribe. I don't consider any of those primitive beliefs to be "True Christianity" as Christ taught it. I believe God gave us intelligence in order to use it and to progress, as His creation has.

Margie| 9.12.10 @ 12:58PM

Ah yes, the wonderful modern Theologians! Why they know better than Christ, don't they? Yep right along there with RCV! We all should just burn our Bibles because they have spoken and said that they do not think homosexuality is a sin!

Your post is filled with lies and you along with your mighty theologians pervert the Bible. But of course you are a "progressive" and believe that God will have changed to please you. But God never changes. Not for anyone.

"Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy." "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End." Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of Life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood. "I Jesus have sent my angel to you with this testimony for the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright Morning Star." Rev. 22:11-16.

"Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. Rms. 1:24-32.

"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and for ever." Heb. 13:8.

RCV| 9.12.10 @ 1:41PM

Margie: the basic difference between our theological views stems from our different understandings of the Bible. You believe the Bible is the inerrant word of God Himself. I don't. My studies over my life teach me that the Bible is a collection of very diverse works: letters, love poems, narratives on the life of Christ, proverbial sayings, Jewish history narratives, prayers TO God. What they have in common is that they were inspired by men and women's yearnings to know God. They were written by human beings. I don't worship a book. That would be idolatry. There is much in the Bible that is just plain wrong, about astronomy, about history, about biology. Human beings are fallible; they get things wrong. Their writings are infused with errors, and with their own ignorant cultural prejudices. I worship God, our Creator, and no one else. I believe with all my being that our Creator was manifest in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. The narratives of his life, resurrection and teachings as related in the Gospels written by his followers after his death inform me of his view of the world and how we should live our lives.

Margie| 9.12.10 @ 3:59PM

Actually you idolize yourself if you can actually say that what YOU think about the Bible is right and not God. You make yourself God, then.

The Bible is written by men moved by the Holy Spirit and every word of it proves true. You are a liar to say otherwise. I wouldn't want to be you on that Day.

"Every word of God proves true; He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him. Do not add to His words, lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar." Prov. 30:5 & 6.

"All these things My hand has made, and so all these things are Mine, says the LORD. But this is the man to whom I will look, he that is humble and contrite in spirit, and trembles at My word." Is. 66:2.

Nick| 9.12.10 @ 4:02PM

RCV,

"There is much in the Bible that is just plain wrong, about astronomy, about history, about biology."

Care to list the chapters and verses of these supposed errors?

Also, do you believe in the Virgin birth, all of Christ's miracles, the Resurrection, and the Ascension?

RCV| 9.12.10 @ 6:15PM

As to your last questions, yes I do. I believe in the virgin birth, the resurrection, and Christ's (i.e. God manifest in the person of Jesus) ability to perform miracles. Whether all of the miracles referred to in the NT are accurate narrations, I don't know. (Changing water into wine seems to be more of a parlor trick beneath Christ, unlike his healing ministry.)

On biblical errors, let's start with the Creation stories. To begin with, there are two different stories of creation in Genesis. Which do you believe? Is the other wrong? Did God make vegetation on earth before he made man (Gen 1:11) or did he make man first and then create plants (Gen 2:4-9)? The Bible tells us that the earth was created before the stars and the sun. But we understand today how planets are formed from the cooling of stars. The Bible tells us that rabbits chew their cud (11:6). We know now that they don't.

The narratives of Jesus's birth and his crucifixion in the synoptic gospels differ in many critical respects. The discrepancies are catalogued, among other places, in Professor Bart Ehrman's recent book, "Jesus Inerrupted." To Ehrmann, a former fundamentalist, the conclusion he draws is that the Bible is just false. I don't share that conclusion. But what it does make me recognize is that the New Testament, like the Old, was written by men. Men who get things wrong sometimes, make mistakes, and just make other things up to make the story more compelling. The story of Mary and Joseph going to Bethlehem for a census, for example, is added to Jesus's life so that he would be born in Bethlehem, as the Jews expected the Messiah to be (Micah 5:2). But we know there was no such Roman census at the time. There was a local census under Quirinius in AD6, but Herod had long been dead by then, and it wasn't ordered by Caesar Augustus. And we also know that the censuses that were held, like ours, counted people where they were. No census historians have ever discovered required people to travel miles and miles to the city where their ancestors came from. That's just silly. It didn't happen.

Mark and Luke have different geneaologies for Jesus. I hardly find that surprising. But if God wrote the Bible, how come he couldn't get it right?

What were Jesus's last words? How did Judas die? These may seem picky, but what they make clear is the authorship of the Bible is human. Errors are made. People get things wrong. God does not.

Nick| 9.13.10 @ 1:30AM

RCV,

I'm sorry you have bought into these modernist Biblical criticisms. They are without merit. I don't put much stock in people who come along 1900 hundred years after these events happened, and try to tell us that those who wrote down these events got it wrong. That would be silly.

You have to know the plot of the Bible, to know what each book's meaning is, and how it fits in, as a whole.

The Bible is not a science book. God could have created the universe in 6 days, 6 minutes, or 6 seconds. So the meaning of the Book of Genesis is theological, not scientific. But, there are not "two different stories of creation," there are two versions of the same story. They don't contradict each other.

I assumed that you were referring to Genesis 11:6, but when I looked it up, there was nothing about rabbits there. I'm confused.

You are mistaken, it is the Gospels of Saint Matthew and Saint Luke that have two different geneaologies of Christ. This is because they were speaking to different audiences. Saint Matthew was speaking to Jews, so his geneaology starts with Abraham to David, David to the deportation, and the deportation to Christ.

Saint Luke was speaking to gentiles, so his starts with Christ and goes back to Adam, the first man, father of us all.

The reason that all the names don't match is two fold. One: they followed different lines of David. Matthew's follows Solomon's, while Luke's follows Nathan's. Two: Jewish geneaologies don't list every father and son. A great-grandfather can be listed as "begetting" his great-grandson.

As to the census, just because that specific census has come down to us only in Saint Luke's Gospel, doesn't mean it didn't happen. Where else is it recorded that Pilate went to Jerusalem for the feast of the Passover? Didn't the world's experts tell us Troy was myth, that it never existed? Don't trust the experts, RCV. They are often wrong.

You are correct, errors are made and people get things wrong. Especially, when they think they know more than the people who actually witnessed, and recorded, those events. Or, when they believe that God wouldn't want us to know the truth about Him and would let lies be told about Him for centuries.

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 12:24PM

I keep a sceptical eye toward all experts, eclessiastical or otherwise, Nick.

Let me be clearer about my thoughts on the Bible. I treasure it. I read it regularly -- several times a week, usually, in addition to the weekly Sunday readings in Church. I find it inspirational, comforting and instructive. I believe the humans who wrote it were often divinely inspired. The insights in parts of the Bible are truly amazing. For example, notwithstanding the obvious errors and the obvious parables (Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden), the cosmology in Genesis is breathtakingly prescient for primitive people. It is mindblowing how consonant the description of the universe's formation is with modern scientific knowledge about the universe's beginnings. That is no accident. Nor is it any less amazing how close the description of God's gradual creation of life is to the actual scientific knowledge of the evolution of life on earth. These stories that were passed down for centuries before being committed to writing were the result of divine sparks, the Holy Spirit moving humans to knowledge they could not have otherwise possessed. Are lots of the details garbled? Yes. That happens with humans, and much gets lost or changed with human transmission. I don't attribute those errors to God. Why doesn't he correct them? I don't know. Why doesn't God hold weekly press conferences in the sky for all of us to get his message absolutely right. I don't know. It would be easier for all of us, but maybe that's the point. We have to use our brains and our souls and struggle. He certainly didn't make it easy for Himself when He came to earth to share human life with us for a while.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 1:24PM

If you believe in God that means you believe what God says. Or else you are an unbeliever.

"He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has borne to his Son." 1 Jn. 5:10.

"For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths." 2 Tim. 4:3 & 4.

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 1:39PM

I certainly don't believe "God is a liar". But God didn't write the Bible. Human beings did, Margie. We know many of the PEOPLE who wrote the Bible.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 3:06PM

Either you believe what is written, or you are an unbeliever. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe, or you don't.

Nick| 9.13.10 @ 3:06PM

RCV,

You seem to be on the right path, sort of, in your search for the Truth.

One mistake you make, I believe, is thinking that the ancients were not the same as us. They had their Einstiens, Newtons, and Bacons.

Plato and Aristotle were pretty smart. It was living in a pagan society that kept them from finding the Truth of God.

The only thing separating us from them, is our technological developments. The human heart doesn't change, unless it is by the power of God.

Your other mistake is using the qualifier "often" when describing the inspired Word of God. It was ALL inspired. If something in the Bible appears to be in error, it is we who are making the mistake, not the Bible.

If you ask the Holy Spirit to help you find the Truth, He will. And, will usually freak you out when He does. At least that has been my experience.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 3:14PM

Excellently said, Nick!

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 4:36PM

Gee, thanks for the validation, Nick. I'm sorry if you and I don't see eye to eye on the Bible. It may all be inspired, but it is all translated and written by men, fallible men. It is not inerrant. It has taken me many years to come to that realization, using the brain God gave me, and the discernment given through prayer and study. I believe in God, not in men, none of whom are infallible, including the Holy Father in Rome, to whom I nonetheless look for guidance and wisdom.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 1:29PM

"The Bible is not a science book. God could have created the universe in 6 days, 6 minutes, or 6 seconds. So the meaning of the Book of Genesis is theological, not scientific."

Nick,

Are you saying Genesis isn't a literal truth? If so you are saying the Bible is false. God is the Creator of "science." And it happened the way He says it did!

Nick| 9.13.10 @ 2:50PM

Margie,

No, that is not what I am saying. I knew I wasn't being as clear as I should've been. My apologies.

I (as I assume you do) used to believe that you HAD to believe the universe was created in six literal days. I'm still open to that interpretation. I will not limit God. As I wrote, above, God could've created the world in a split second, if He wanted to.

But, then I read some commentaries on Genesis. I learned that, in Hebrew, the word for "day" can also mean "eras." So, six eras of Creation is another possible interpretation.

Then there is the Second Letter of Peter 3:8, "But of this one thing be not ignorant, my beloved, that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day."

Now, if one were to take that literally, Creation could've taken 6,000 years, thus making the universe roughly 12,000 years old. I'm, also, open to that interpretation. Again, I will not limit the power of God. And, I know the scientists aren't even close to knowing how Creation happened.

So, the more I read, and the more I thought about it, I came to the view that the Book of Genesis was inspired by the Holy Spirit, not, as I thought, to give us a scientific explanation of Creation. (How would the people back then have understood it?)

The point of the first three chapters of Genesis is theological, along with historical. God is telling us that He created the universe, and everything in it. How, exactly, He did it, is not important for our salvation. THAT He did it, alone, is what is important.

It also tells us that our first parents disobeyed God, that we all pay for that disobedience, but that He would send a Redeemer, so that we could walk with Him again.

So, to sum up, I believe it is entirely possible for God to have created the universe in 6 days, as it is written in Genesis. I just don't believe that that part of the story is what God wanted us to focus on, or have disagreements over. I don't believe my salvation hinges on me, or anyone else, believing that Creation happened in six 24 hour days.

But, one must be open to possibility that it did happen in 6 literal days. Once someone says, "God could not have created the universe in 6 days," he has limited the power of God. And, limiting the power of God is not Christian, it comes from the Enemy.

It probably won't shock you, but this just happens to be the teaching of the Catholic Church. Ha-ha!
I know, big surprise! Catholic boy repeats the teachings of his church. Stop the presses!

Well, I've rambled on long enough, sorry. Hope that was more clear, if you were able to not to fall asleep! Ha!
God Bless!

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 3:08PM

Well said, Nick. (Of course, I learned the same things growing up as a Catholic!)

Nick| 9.13.10 @ 3:28PM

RCV,

Ah-ha!!!!!
I knew there was hope for you! Ha-ha!

I'll try to get you something to read, re: the Inquisition, later. Have to run right now.

Would you prefer I post down at the bottom, rather than having to scroll to the middle?

Talk to you later, bye!

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 4:09PM

Either works, Nick. The gloriousness of God's creation is slowly revealed us, isn't it, as creation evolves? It is revealed to us as we gain the capacity to understand, and not before, as you pointed out earlier. What is most wonderous to me about Genesis is not the errors, but the basic accuracy of the message God sent through his imperfect human listeners. Science only this century has come to realize that the universe was created in a blinding instant -- the "Big Bang", when God said, "let there be Light." And as Darwin so brilliantly explained in "Origin of the Species", we have come to understand what was meant by God's gradual creation of life described in Genesis - how lower life forms were first created, with more complex forms being brought forth later. It was a very gradual process. God is in no hurry, only we are.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 4:23PM

RCV,

There is no evolution in the Bible. It says, "God created each according to it's kind." Genesis.

CREATED. He did so. Either you believe Him or you don't.

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 5:25PM

Margie, I believe Him. All others, I take with a grain of salt.

RCV| 9.13.10 @ 5:56PM

Margie, there's no electricity in the Bible, either. Or quantam physics. Or penicllin. Or heart transplants. Or references to the yet-discovered Americas. Or to the fact that the world is round. God's creation is ever-unfolding.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 9:32PM

RCV,

I'll take God's word for things, not yours.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 3:12PM

Nick,

No, I didn't know that you were talking specifically about the 6 day issue and what that means. I agree with you there, that 6 days doesn't nec. mean 6 days in our time. Our idea of what we call time, anyway. And the Bible answers itself as you pointed out with that verse~ "With the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years is as one day." 2 Pe. 3:8.

Isn't it amazing (and wonderful), how God in His infinite wisdom arranged the Bible for us in such a perfect way so that if we really study it we can find out what He means?
"The secret things belong to the LORD our God; but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." Duet. 29:29.

He reveals Himself to those who seek Him. And from that verse about one day is as a thousand years, accordingly, it seems to me that the earth is indeed thousands of years old, and not millions. That's if you stick to what the Bible says, and not self-appointed intellectuals pretending to know something!

God bless, brother!

Nick| 9.13.10 @ 3:24PM

Margie,

Sorry that I wrongly assumed your position on the six days of creation. I should know by now not to assume!

And, YES!, I am constantly amazed by the tidbits and clues God has left in His Holy Word. Although, we shouldn't be, if you think about it. God can never lie, nor deceive.

When it comes to God, we are like little children trying to understand nuclear physics.

Margie| 9.13.10 @ 4:19PM

S'ok Nick. That's why there's such a thing as communication. That thing that's so greatly lacking amongst the Left!

Nick it really seems to me like you're someone who who has been, as John 3:3 says, been "regenerated from above." (That's from the Greek interlinear Bible I have.) The RSV that I was raised on from a young Christian says "born anew." But we get the gist, right? "Saved by Grace through faith, and it wasn't our own doing, but the gift of God!" Eph. 2:8.

Real Christians don't hate one another. We can argue and agree to disagree. Thank God for Jesus! You know that verse that says He "has broken down the wall of hostility?"

It's just so good, I'm gonna post the whole passage here. To you, Nick:

"But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near in the blood of Christ. For He is our peace, Who has made us both one, and has broken down the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances, that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby bringing the hostility to an end. And He came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near; for through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the Cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit." Eph. 2:13-21.

Love it. God bless.

Nick| 9.14.10 @ 1:23AM

Thank you so much, Margie, my Sister in Christ!

What a great passage. I was not aware of it, although, I'm sure I've read it. It perfectly explains how Christians should stick together, and stress what we agree about, not dwell on what we don't.

You and I should also thank the Lord for giving us John II, to help bring us together. He was a God-send.

Thanks for your graceful compliment about me being regenerated from above. I struggle, and stumble, as we all do. But, I get strength discussing Christ with others, like you and Victor.

It has been a long trip for me. If you had known me 20 years ago, you would have said I was on the road to Hell. And, you would've been right!

Thanks to the prayers of my parents, and other family, I made it back to God. Such is the Power and Mercy of Christ, that He would forgive a sinner such as I.
May God Bless You, and Keep You, Margie.

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.11.10 @ 4:32PM

We're buying shrimp, Nate and RCV. You guys better cool it. I mean I have already condemned by spiritual mentor for his racist statements and he had a congregation of 8500 people and carried on like a man. You guys never said squat about that and now you are jumping in on some loser in Florida with a congregation of 50. People might get to understand that you are just mindless trolls who really don't believe in much of anything. Keep the racial hate going but find a different way. You are too obvious. Drones are killing people in Pakistan without warrants, baby.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 4:32PM

I am, and proud to be!

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.11.10 @ 6:28PM

We're buying shrimp, RCV. Only you would be proud of being a mindless troll. You are not even that good at it. Don't debate Nick. He is kicking your old white butt all over the web site. You have carried the moral equivalence argument as far as you can. It is time to call him an islamophobe or a racist and duck for cover. We're closing gitmo while playing golf, baby. By the way, the trolls at this site are all white which makes them highly suspicious. Possibly they are the KKK members that Reverend Wright was always concerned about.

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 8:48PM

You're right. I give up. Why, just today Nick has persuaded me that the Inquisition was really just a benign effort by the Church to reign in intolerance by the state; that Hitler was not a white supremacist; that Christians were not involved in those sectarian Balkan slaughters; and that Pope Benedict didn't really condemn Qur'an burning, just those nefarious comma sits in the Vatican did.

Back to Saturday college football for me. Go Blue!

RCV| 9.11.10 @ 8:50PM

My Ipad spell check helpfully changed "communists" to "comma sits"!

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.11.10 @ 10:06PM

We're buying shrimp, RCV. I warned you not to debate him but you won't listen. I know how to tell whoppers. Ffor instance, I never knew what was going on in that racist church that I attended for twenty years. Sure it doesn't survive the smell test and I relied on really stupid people like yourself to survive. In the end there was no weekly pictures of me in church and lucky me I was not in any that moron Wright's for sale videos. I made it unscathed. You however show no such judgment. It is an easy thing to read what Nick wrote and it does not resemble what you say he says. This is the time when you are supposed to say many conservatives say,"...". Nobody can verify that. Instead you show yourself to be a liar and not too bright by attaching your lie to a particular. Why can't I get good help? Stick to the talking points. Whenever you get off them you really do our cause harm through your stupidity. We are creating brand new kinds of cheap energy at the golf course, baby.

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.11.10 @ 11:13PM

We're buying shrimp, RCV.

"Back to Saturday college football for me. Go Blue!"

When I see this it makes me wonder, was there a football player who was part of the Village People? Don't ask, don't tell still, baby.

RCV| 9.12.10 @ 12:17AM

Michigan 28, Notre Dame 24. Go Blue!

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 11:26PM

RCV,

Is it my fault that you are ignorant of these subjects?

Just give me specific, actual examples of Christian mass killing or Christian terrorists.

RCV| 9.12.10 @ 12:24AM

Nick, I know it's pointless to argue with you further about these subjects, but here's just one of many little tidbits about the Christian massacres of Muslims in the Balkans. This is from a report on the War Crimes Trials in the Hague:
"Geoffrey Nice, who is the lead prosecutor at the war crimes trial of former Serbian and Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic in The Hague, showed the court a video on 1 June that depicted a group of bloodied Bosnian Muslims held by an armed Serbian paramilitary police unit called the Scorpions at Srebrenica in July 1995. The Muslims were then driven in trucks to an area where they were shot by their captors amid a torrent of verbal abuse. Nice stressed that the killers were not Bosnian Serbs but rather part of the "infamous Scorpions unit, under the command of the secret services, or DB, of Serbia's Interior Ministry, and within...Milosevic's chain of command and control. Before the men tortured and killed their victims, they were blessed by a Serbian Orthodox priest."

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.12.10 @ 9:17AM

We're buying shrimp, RCV. This is from Wikipedia.

"Milošević went on to study law at the University of Belgrade's Law School, where he became the head of the ideology committee of the Yugoslav Communist League's (SKJ) student branch (SSOJ). While at the university, he befriended Ivan Stambolić, whose uncle Petar Stambolić had been a president of Serbian Executive Council (the Communist equivalent of a prime minister). This was to prove a crucial connection for Milošević's career prospects, as Stambolić sponsored his rise through the SKJ hierarchy."

Trying to turn commies into Christians is a pathetic task even for you. It was Nick's church that stood up to the commies. The Orthodox church was used by and full of commie agents, a little like the Democratic Party. It is like calling the church I went to in Chicago a Christian church. Reverend Wright hardly ever spoke of Christ and when he did he tried to make him sound like Stokely Carmichael. Burn baby burn. Lets face it Slobo had more in common with you than any Christian. It is the Democratic Party that both likes left wing economics and using ethnic and racial differences to divide people for political gain. Golf today. I'm post racial you typical white person.

Nick| 9.12.10 @ 3:57PM

RCV,

I'm sorry you wasted so much time trying to find an obscure quote to back up your ideology. Especially, a quote from Radio Free Europe (a site no one has ever heard of,) that deliberately distorts the facts.

The priest blessed the men of that unit days before the SIX Bosnians were tortured and killed. Do you have any proof that the priest had any foreknowledge of what was going to occur, DAYS LATER, RCV?

But, I'll admit that there were probably a few so-called "priests" that were for the ethnic cleansing of NON-SERBS. They also massacred Croatian Catholics. Did you know that?

The Balkan's Conflict was about Serbs trying to keep control of the whole region that was the former Yugoslavia. Not a mini-Crusade against Moslems.

Trying to make it one is a "pathetic task," as "The One" has stated, above.

RCV| 9.12.10 @ 5:02PM

Yes, of course the Serbian Orthodox and Croation Catholics have been slaughtering each other for centuries over their doctrinal differences. That's what religious zealotry and the certainty that you are right does. One of my law partners served as a special UN envoy to the Balkans investigating the war crimes committed in the 1990s. The involvement in the religious massacres by both Serbian Orthodox priests and Croatian Catholic priests was extensive and ongoing, just as it was in World War II, when the Croatian Ustase massacred Jews, Serbs and Muslims.

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.12.10 @ 5:47PM

We're buying shrimp, RCV. Now you are cooking with gas. This is how a Democrat lies. Unnamed priests, unnamed friends with quasi-important sounding titles. Wait, if your friend served with the UN there is a good chance he was either molesting children or raping women. That is what the UN does well. Could you come up with another friend that was doing something a little more reputable. Since you are on a roll, maybe you can give us the play by play on the 100 million people killed by leftists like yourself last century. You might as well talk about something you know about. You know government frustration with the lack of cooperation with five year plans and such. 100 million eggs and really not much of an omelet. By the way mentioning fascist puppets (the Croatian Ustase) didn't really make your Christian case. You seem to like to give examples of secular fellows like yourself. Cling to those guns and religion, baby.

Nick| 9.13.10 @ 1:45AM

Wrong, RCV.

Religion is used as an excuse, just like ethnicity is. People always put themselves in "us" versus "them" camps. Whether it is in war, a baseball game, or the Hatfields and McCoys.

To quote Tom Clancy, "All wars are economic." Wealth buys you power. Power gets you more wealth. Hitler and Stalin lived like royalty.

Milošević, like all tyrants, just wanted to control as much territory as he could. It's really not any more complicated than that.

Nick| 9.11.10 @ 5:26PM

RCV,

In case you missed it, this is my response to our discussion, from above:

I will go there.

First, my main point was that McVeigh wasn't a Christian. Did you not read the link?

Second, I thought we were talking about recent history. Seeing as JP referrenced recent Moslem Arab attacks on Israel and the attacks of Septermber 11th, 2001, and you brought up the Oklahoma City bombing of 1995.

Third, Yugoslavia was ruled by atheistic communists for 45 years prior to the slaughter of Bosnian Moslems. So, what makes the Serbs who committed those crimes Christian?

Forth, colonialism was all about economic control, not religion.

Finally, shall we go into the MILLIONS killed by all the followers of Marx?

Mel Torme| 9.11.10 @ 8:39PM

Don't be so harsh on the lawyers, people! You know, it's just the 99% of the lawyers that give the other 1 % a bad name.

As for the reporters, they are not hated. They are just starting to realize that most people think they are stupid. The main reason for that, is that reporters are, indeed, pretty stupid. It hurts, I know (2nd hand, of course). As for our esteemed writers of the American Spectator, I'll give 80% of them a waiver on this, pending further review. As for Andrew Cline, "WAIVER DENIED WITH PREJUDICE".

Mel Torme| 9.11.10 @ 8:47PM

oops, that last comment was in regard to Chris Orlet's article of 9/9/2010.

The last sentence still applies, of course.

Who is this guy? The US Constitution doesn't apply here; is that your idea of wisdom, Cline?

Maybe if someone had talked to the founding fathers of our country about civility, they would have refrained from shooting at redcoats who were coming for the arms and ammo. We'd have been living under the Crown still instead of having 150 years (+- 25) of freedom.

Read this guy's stuff, Chris Orlet, then look me straight in the eye and tell me we should respect reporters. Ha!

Ran / Si Vis Pacem | 9.11.10 @ 11:13PM

Civility is not at all times about peace, brother. It is about doing the right thing.

Mel Torme| 9.12.10 @ 12:10AM

Fuckin' A !

martin j smith| 9.12.10 @ 7:41AM

I love talk of civility and especially from the LEFT SOCIALISTS !!!!!!!!!!!!! Boy they really set a great example: For instance if you disagree you are a: Racist,bigot,homophobe,Islamaphobe, and besides
they don't like you or want to let you hear whatever it is you have to say. You are idiotsstupid,ignoramaces and whatever. So--please we have lost our civility forever.
For now on--well for the last 10 years or so what the people who oppose the LEFT SOCIALIST AGENDA need to understand his this: Throw the mud back at them. But do it nicely and always with a smile.

James| 9.12.10 @ 3:14PM

Better yet, just tell these worthless scum the next time they behead any innocent American, we drop a nuke on Medina. And if it happens again, we take out Mecca...

First| 9.13.10 @ 3:59AM

...why wait?

shipley130| 9.12.10 @ 6:39PM

I think the pastor that was planning the Quran burning uncovered more Islamic terror tactics than Fox News and all the other more conservative news sources ever could. The Imam would have never let the cat out of the bag about Americans should watch their back if this incident never happened. I'm very disappointed with the news sources which I rely on. They seems to have missed the point. Even Glenn Beck isn't talking about the big picture of Islam. You guys in the media need to start putting the little pieces toether to get the big picture.

Brian| 9.12.10 @ 7:10PM

Reminds me of all the hand wringing and teeth gnashing after Reagan called the Soviet Union "the evil empire".

Brian| 9.12.10 @ 7:33PM

The time for civility was over when the Muslims started attacking America. Why is it all the RINOS don't want to paint Islam with a broad terrorist brush, but they're more than willing to paint all tea partiers with a broad racist brush?

Answers1| 9.13.10 @ 3:57AM

...children behave, and let's all be civil now to Hitler, Mussolini, Amin, Tojo, Pol Pot, Stalin, Ahmedinijad, Chavez...Muslim thugs too...

Spyder308| 9.13.10 @ 9:38AM

There were riots around the world resulting form this jerks actions and people died. Their blood is on his hands.

Douglas| 9.13.10 @ 9:48AM

Another dhimmi conservative.

Their blood is no their hands. What a moronic sophmoric statement. The hands of islam is always bloody.

Do you think by bowing before them we will gain some kind of benefit.

Spyder308| 9.14.10 @ 11:39AM

And you would find nothing wrong with yelling fire in a crowded theater. Just because we have the right to do something doesn't mean we should.

Nick| 9.14.10 @ 12:59AM

RCV,

I was able to remember, and find quickly, two succinct links, which you can find here and here .

Yes, it is from Catholic Answer's "This Rock" magazine, but, hey, I'm a Catholic apologist.

Sorry, I don't believe in Darwinian, materialistic macro-evolution. I don't see any evidence for it. Micro-evolution, i.e. different breeds of dog or all the varieties of ants and spiders, yes. But, not one species transforming into another over time, no matter how many millions of years go by.

Did you know that the theory of the Big Bang was proposed by a Catholic priest? One of Stephen Hawking's professors refused to believe in it. He stubbornly clinged to the perpetual universe theory, because if there was a beginning, that would lead to a creator.

Years ago, I was watching the late, great Zola Levitt's show. He had a scientist on, who had a theory on how to combine the 6 days Creation with what modern science says took 12 billion years.

I can't do it justice here, but, the gist was this: Using Einstein's theory, that space and time are interconnected, the beginning of time looks farther away from where we are today, than it did when the Big Bang happened.

So, looking backwards in time, it looks farther away, because space has expanded greatly since Creation. At the beginning, space and gravity were small, hence time was also small.

He then began to line up the 6 days of creation with what scientists claim has been observed in the cosmos and the geological record.

The first day was, something like, a few billion years long, by our reckoning of time. The second day was shorter, due to the expansion of the universe. The third, even shorter, and so on.

It blew me away. I wondered, what would happen if this ever were to be proven? How many scientists would be converted from atheism and believe the Bible?
I think that would be very cool!
God Bless, RCV.

RCV| 9.14.10 @ 12:21PM

Nick - Fascinating post. The space-time postulate is absolutely fascinating, though I admit I'm no Einstein and find it hard to get my brain around the concepts. I don't take the 6 days account literally so don't feel the need to search for a way to reconcile it with what we have come to know from science.

On evolution, my readings convince me of the soundness of the concept. Though I reject utterly his atheism, Richard Dawkins' books on evolution as a process are utterly persuasive. They're worth a read.

There are many leading scientists who are believers on a rational basis. One of my favorite is a fellow named Francis Collins, who headed the Human Genome Project. He has written two wonderful books, The Mind of God and The Language of God. In the first, he marvels at how the human brain developed the abstract mathematical reasoning capacity, which really serves no purpose --- except to understand the mathematical way God constructed the universe.
I believe that as God's creation unfolds, He provides humans the capacity and the means to understand more profoundly the wonder of what He has created. He is the author of the evolutionary process that made us into the creatures we have become.

Be well, my friend. All the best.

Joanna | 6.6.11 @ 5:48AM

there are some nice muslims in the world who are not terrorists.

UTI Treatment

roll former | 8.1.11 @ 9:24PM

I'd say that the media has propogated this right out of this world...and for no other reason than ratings. 15 minutes of fame and another commercial paid for.
roll forming machines,

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