The American Spectator : The Long Road: France and the Roma Expulsions

Text Size

Special Report

The Long Road: France and the Roma Expulsions

Anti-Gypsy sentiment, long a feature of the European social landscape, is back with a vengeance.

On the morning of July 17, 2010, the residents of the French commune of Saint-Aignan awoke to the sound of rioting, though few in the picturesque Loire Valley village could have guessed the reason for all the tumult. The previous night, a Traveler and robbery suspect by the name of Luigi Duquenet had barreled through a police checkpoint in his car, injuring a gendarme in the process, and was accelerating towards a second checkpoint before he was shot and killed. Within hours, dozens of incensed fellow gens du voyage, armed with hatchets and crowbars, were rampaging through the medieval streets of Saint-Aignan, chopping down trees, setting cars alight, pillaging stores, and storming the village police station. "It was," as Mayor Jean-Michel Billon put it, "a settling of scores between the travelers and the gendarmerie." The coming weeks would provide ample evidence that the clashes had in no wise settled any scores.

By the next day three hundred soldiers were patrolling the streets of Saint-Aignan, and soon thereafter France's President Nicolas Sarkozy was vowing that the rioters would be "severely punished," and that the "the problems created by the behavior of certain Travelers and Roma" would be addressed once and for all. The ensuing measures, Sarkozy continued, would be part of the "implacable struggle the government is leading against crime" and the "veritable war" being waged against those "delinquents" threatening France's ordre publique. Pierre Lellouche, France's Minister for Europe, concurred: "we are faced with a real problem and the time has come to deal with it." It was not long before French ministers were considering corrective measures ranging from the tightening of immigration controls to the systematic evacuation and dismantling of illegal encampments, the better to deal with the "sources of illegal trafficking, of profoundly shocking living standards, of exploitation of children for begging, of prostitution and of crime."

Such rhetoric in reaction to the events in Saint-Aignan was altogether predictable, given the emphasis placed on matters of law and order by France's governing Union pour un Mouvement Populaire (with Sarkozy himself having made international headlines with his 2005 comments about the need to "hose down" lawless estates and root out criminal "scum"), but in this case it cannot be said that the French government was engaging in mere posturing for popular consumption. Some three hundred Roma camps were quickly targeted for demolition, and on August 12, Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux announced that some 850 Roma would be systematically deported to Romania and Bulgaria (albeit each with 300 euros in hand). The first repatriations followed two weeks later, with more planned for the month of September. A lawyer for the Roma leadership, Henri Braun, cautioned that the government was "preparing to open a blighted page in the history of France," but Sarkozy's administration may in fact be setting a continental precedent. On August 21, the Italian Interior Minister, Roberto Maroni, told the daily Corriere della Sera that "if anything, it's time to go a step further," calling for outright "expulsions just like those for illegal immigrants, not assisted or voluntary repatriations."

For the various itinerant communities of France -- the tsiganes, the manouches, the gitanes, the Roma, and the Sinti -- the ongoing crackdown occurring in France, and now threatened elsewhere, is only the most recent chapter in a centuries-old story of tribulation and alienation. The zhalvini gilyi, or dirges, of the Roma folk tradition invariably stress the pitfalls of a peripatetic life on the lungo drom, the "long road." "Oh Lord," bemoaned Bronisława Wajs, the mid-twentieth century Polish-Romani poet, "Where can I go? What can I do?" now that "time of the wandering Gypsies has long passed." A Transylvanian dirge laments: "God, oh God! How you have thrashed me,/Perhaps nobody more than me," before concluding "Oh, what can I do, all alone?" The dislocation and unfocused nostalgia that are part and parcel of the itinerant lifestyle, coupled with centuries of persecution, in turn led to widespread fatalism, with one Serbian Gypsy song resignedly foreseeing that "The crack of Doom/is coming soon./Let it come,/it doesn't matter."

For the Roma and other Travelers, the "crack of Doom" has indeed sounded out with some frequency over the years, as European anti-ziganism is of considerable vintage. Anti-Gypsy sentiment, long a feature of the European social landscape, was first institutionalized in early modern Central Europe, with the Holy Roman Emperor Maximilian I outlawing the community in 1500, and with Ferdinand I expelling the scapegoated Roma from Prague after an unexplained 1541 fire. By 1548 the Diet of Augsburg had declared that "whosoever kills a Gypsy, shall be guilty of no murder," and by 1710 the Holy Roman Emperor Joseph I would go a step further, demanding "that all adult [Roma] males were to be hanged without trial, whereas women and young males were to be flogged and banished forever." Thirty-nine years later the Spanish monarch Philip V was still taking aim at "this multitude of infamous and noxious people" that needed to be "contained and corrected"; round-ups occurred in Spain and France up through the Napoleonic period. The situation for the Roma, Sinti, and Lalleri was even worse in the east, and it would not be until 1856 that the outright enslavement of Gypsies was abolished in Moldavia and Wallachia.

The 20th century would bring no respite, with the coming of the Holocaust (known in Romani as the Samudaripen, "the murder of all," or the Pharrajimos, "the devouring"). During those berša bibahtale, those "unhappy years," in Hitler's Germany, Pavelić's Croatia, and King Michael I's Romania, hundreds of thousands of Roma would lose their lives in concentration camps, in hastily dug ditches, and in the laboratories of Josef Mengele. As Adolf Eichmann, the Nazi official who organized the transport of Gypsies to the various death camps of the east, later testified: "intervention on behalf of the Gypsies was impossible from any side at all. Obviously, the prejudice against this group was the strongest." That the grounds of the Lety concentration camp (in the modern Czech Republic), constructed seventy years ago for the Nazi internment of Romani men, women, and children, now hosts an industrial pig farm provides some evidence of the extent to which the Pharrajimos has yet to adequately penetrate the modern European psyche.

Even the end of Nazi rule would bring no end to the suffering of the Roma, again particularly in the east, for, as Florinda Lucero and Jill Collum have observed, under Communist rule "a chilling 'solution' to the proliferation of the Roma came about: the uninformed and non-consenting sterilization of Roma women, often under the guise of caesarean sections and abortions, and under pressure from social workers who would get their uninformed consent with promises of cash and tangible goods." (Instances of coercive sterilization of Romani women in the Czech Republic, Slovakia, and Hungary have also occurred in the post-socialist era, indeed as recently as 2008.) Today, discrimination against this marginalized community is routine in central and southeastern Europe, with racially motivated assaults on the rise, Roma communities routinely denied access to sufficient electricity and water, and, in the Czech Republic, to take one example, fully two-thirds of Roma children placed into remedial programs for dysfunctional students. Anti-Roma violence has been on display in Italy, where in May of 2008 a Gypsy settlement outside of Naples was burned to the ground while crowds gathered to cheer, and in Hungary, where anti-Roma demonstrations in 2009 prompted then-Prime Minister Ferenc Gyurcsány to warn that "we have to act while we can, not wait until the prejudices and the urge to vigilantism distill into unmanageable social phenomena." Such outbreaks of overt anti-ziganism have led János Ladanyi of Budapest's Center for Social, Regional and Ethnic Conflicts to further caution that "this road is a dead end. It leads to the Balkans."

YET THE ROAD THE GYPSIES of Europe are on is not itself at a dead end, as is appropriate for a people historically accustomed to looking at the lungo drom. There have been occasional victories in European courts, including a 2003 ruling in the United Kingdom's House of Lords (Wrexham County Borough Council v. Berr), which held that zoning regulations should not "impose an excessive burden on the individual whose private interests -- here the gypsy's private life and the retention of his ethnic identity -- are at stake," as well as a 2010 European Court of Human Rights decision finding that Croatia had erred in placing Roma students in Roma-only classrooms. A 2005 photographic exhibit entitled "Lety Detention Camp: History of Unmentioned Genocide" was prominently featured in the European Parliament, and later was displayed in foyer of the Czech Senate in Prague, prompting President Václav Klaus to acknowledge that "of course it is necessary to appropriately commemorate this place." Meanwhile, in Romania, a Comisia pentru Studierea Robiei Romilor, or "Commission for the Study of Roma Slavery," was established in 2007, and consists of Roma and Romanian historians and social scientists investigating the deep history of southeastern European anti-ziganism. EU Roma summits have taken place in 2008 and 2010, and by August 2, 2010, the Council of Europe had declared a day of remembrance of the genocide against the Roma, and pledged support for the promotion of Samudaripen education, given that the Roma genocide "is nowhere to be found in European educational materials but should in fact be an integral part of national education curricula." It seemed a distinct possibility that attitudes towards the Roma might be changing, and that the "Gypsy question" might some day be answered.

Yet the expulsions from France, which by the end of August had resulted in 151 obligatory ("de manière contrainte") and 828 voluntary ("de manière volontaire") repatriations to Bulgaria and Romania, have overshadowed such progress. Concerns voiced by Roma groups, certain Bulgarian and Romanian politicians, the United Nations, and the European Union have only prompted France to double down on its method of controlling the gens du voyage and their perceived "menace à l'ordre public." France's Immigration Minister, Eric Bresson, has hinted at further measures to crack down on the clandestine immigration of Roma, particular at the French border, while Interior Minister Brice Hortefeux continues to insist that "the objective announced by the president of the republic, that half our country's illegal camps will be dismantled in three months, will be met."

The French government has roundly rejected any suggestion that these expulsions in any way resemble the infamous rafles, or round-ups, of the Second World War. Deputy Jean-Pierre Grand responded to critics (including Catholic archbishops and opposition politicians) thusly: "Persons are arrested, their identities are verified, and they are offered money to return to their homeland; I would like for someone to explain the connection to the roundups of the Second World War [Les personnes sont interpellées, leur identité est vérifiée, on leur propose de l'argent pour retourner dans leur pays d'origine: j'aimerais bien qu'on m'explique quel est le lien avec les rafles de la seconde guerre mondiale]." Pierre Lellouche has proven more defiant still, insisting that the expulsions were designed to guarantee the "first of human rights, which is the right to safety."

While a French court in Lille recently rejected the notion that illegal Roma camps are by their very nature threats to public order, the government has pressed on, planning amendments to French national law that will make "repeated theft or aggressive begging" grounds for expulsion. With crimes committed by Romanians (many of whom are Roma) reported to have increased by 259 percent in Paris over the last eighteen months, with some one in five Parisian thefts perpetrated by a Romanian, and with constant strains on the welfare system exacerbated by the presence of illegal aliens, it was inevitable that the French government would step up measures against unlawfully-present Roma and their camps, brooking no opposition in the process. And it is no coincidence that the crackdown has occurred alongside an overall government-led "debate on national identity" that has been taking place in France over recent months. (That the Roma are paying something of a price for Gallic resentment of other immigrant communities that have likewise yet to fully assimilate cannot be discounted either.) The French government has even raised the possibility of contesting Romanian and Bulgarian entry into the Schengen (border-free) European zone in March of 2011 due to the regular egress of Roma from those countries. Thus the Roma controversy in France figures to have more than merely domestic political ramifications.

In 1993, Václav Havel famously proposed that the treatment of the Roma was a "litmus test" of European civil society. The results of that ongoing test are not yet in, but it is clear that the French body politic is increasingly inclined to favor public order, national identity, and self-determination over softer, universalistic values. As the immigration debate takes center stage in Europe, with countries like Italy, Spain, and France adopting increasingly stringent, and politically popular, push-back measures, the treatment of the various Roma communities scattered about the continent will serve as a bellwether of national and pan-European attitudes. And the Roma -- those all too often "poor and plotless" travelers "from a distant land" (as the poet Leksa Manuš put it) -- will continue to be borne along by the tides of history.

About the Author

Matthew Omolesky specialized in European affairs at the Whitehead School of Diplomacy's graduate program, and received his juris doctor from The Ohio State University's Moritz College of Law. Formerly a researcher-in-residence at the Institut za Civilizacijo in Kulturo (Ljubljana), he is presently a researcher for the Laboratoire Europeen d'Anticipation Politique (Paris) and a specialist in international human rights law.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (168) | Leave a comment

Kenny| 9.3.10 @ 6:37AM

What, Europe is suppose to continually put up with the dysfunctional behavior of gypsies as if it is some sort of a test on Europe's level of civilivation? Please.

Deport 'em.

Vern Crisler| 9.3.10 @ 10:43AM

I don't know anything about gypsies except they dress colorfully in all the movies. Are gypsies in reality just groups of grifters?

loulou| 9.3.10 @ 12:52PM

When I was in Paris years ago the gypsies were running amok. Thieving, mugging, etc. They use children who are expert pickpockets and thieves.

KyMouse| 9.3.10 @ 1:28PM

I had the same experience in Russia, Ukraine and other areas. In train stations, Gypsy children came over to us and patted our clothing to find our money, while pretending to be affectionate. One child had been taught to kiss tourists' shoes in order to gain sympathy. The adults stood in the shadows, watching for the children to indicate where wallets were hiding. A couple of people in our tour group soon discovered that their wallets were gone, expertly picked.

One woman in our group happened to have a toy balloon with her; when a little gypsy boy came over to her, she blew it up for him and gave it to him. He took it to his older sister in the shadows -- and she took the balloon and hit him. I suppose it was because the balloon wasn't valuable.

In one city, a toddler came up to a teenaged couple in our group, and grabbed the young man's trouser leg, crying. Suddenly, several Gypsy men appeared and accused the young American of hurting the child. Clearly, they were going to demand money as "compensation." Our tour guide started yelling "Thief! Thief" and the Gypsies scattered.

I felt so sorry for the littlest kids, who were growing up seeing other people as prey.

Alan Brooks| 9.4.10 @ 10:20PM

Maybe the French can ask the Germans to help them contrive a final solution to the Roma problem.

IMKessel| 9.6.10 @ 5:10PM

Uncle Joe and his comrades (Communists) were also experts at dealing death.

For those who wish to cast stones (both figuratively and literarily) at the gypsies (as a group), remember that demographics are not destiny. One can offer evidence that many Travelers/gypsies/Roma have criminal records, and one can make a solid argument regarding the need to remove thei T/g/R camps for public order and safety, but no one can speak of the character of each individual member of their ranks. Saints are often found in among the greatest sinners.

bunky| 9.6.10 @ 5:19PM

Socialists and communists were taken to the resettlement camps also.
Maybe the French can find some place for some of them.

Texas Audax| 9.5.10 @ 9:48AM

Amen! They attempted to pick my pocket in Milano using Roma women and a baby. With the help of the local shopkeepers we caught them and held them for the police. Here in Slovakia you find a few who are in the metal working and wrought iron trades as well as many fine musicians. The rest are now living in "settlements" provided by the government. They soon turn into pig sties and ghettos. They don't "find" work because most just don't want to work and why should they when the government will "give" them something for nothing. You will also see them alongside the road with a "broken down" Mercedes waving their little silk scarfs trying to get a sucker to stop and "help" them. I used to romanticize them too until I moved here and and was mugged by reality.

SIRJASON| 9.5.10 @ 7:06PM

FINALLY! France is involved in a WAR against Islam's Sharia` law and the 'Travelers'that ...FRANCE can WIN...if the French patriots do NOT surrender! VIVE la FRANCE!

Brian Mc| 9.3.10 @ 6:48AM

For some odd reason, this article reminds me of a recent trip to the American Indian Museum on the Mall in D.C.

There was a mural in one portion of the mesmerizingly inane exhibit halls that had superimposed the quote from one of the members of that tribe, "[We] are a peaceful people". I wondered if the dead and destroyed families who attempted to settle in the region (where that particular tribe hailed from), over a hundred years ago, would have agreed with the statement as I did an about face and exited the architecturally-stunning building veiled with cascading waterfalls and fluttering pigeons.

In my estimation, to assume that any particular group is a victim more than any other is farcical and an affront to the rest of humanity.

Dave Berrier| 9.6.10 @ 7:25PM

Well said. To moan over the expulsion of criminals who happen to belong to a particular ethnic identity is to misdirect the ire we should rightly feel for those who break laws and rob us. It's akin to understanding jihadist violence in light of the destruction of the Crusades. Wrong is wrong and should be flagged wherever it is and those responsible held accountable.

Lullabys, Legends and Lies| 9.3.10 @ 7:32AM

How long does it take for a group of people to get their act together and become an accepted, functioning part of society? A year, a decade, a generation, a century, a millennium? Why are these Gypsies/Roma so despised? It can't just be the big bad Europeans since the beginning of time who are to blame for them not fitting in, for all their never ending problems, it's got to have something to do with the Gypsies (look in the mirror every now and then, huh?). Are they all idiots or something, or is it just too much inbreeding going on, there's got to be a reason?

But I've got the answer for these "poor" Gypsies, come to America!! We'll take you in, hell, we'll take anybody (Centuries of problems and all)!! You'll fit right in with the millions we already have here, who do nothing for themselves, that just cry about all the bad things that have been done to them since the Founding of this Nation (or was it when Columbus first stepped foot on the sand?). I'm only joking about them coming to America, let's not take in the Gypsies in either (they are Europe's problem), we've got enough of our own problems here, we don't need more. Try this one on for size, fix yourself!!

fb0m0724| 9.3.10 @ 8:00AM

Ah - they will immediately been given membership in the Democratic Party, free eductation, free medical care, and told how to vote on election day (vote early - vote often.

LOL

Victor| 9.4.10 @ 3:02PM

There already are "Gypsies" in the Americas. They are more commonly just referred to in the US as "Travelers." And yes, they are known grifters. My mother was almost driven out of her house by people who exhibited Traveler behavior. I don't think that technically they were Roma, but they seemed to live like that. No home, going from place to place, person to person. My mom, and old woman, I hope has finally learned not to be a "mark". Her compassion was almost her complete undoing.

Virginian| 9.6.10 @ 4:16PM

We actually have them here already. There have been groups of women and children begging outside of my church in the DC suburbs after mass. According to one of the priests, they are from Eastern Europe.

bruce b| 9.6.10 @ 9:16PM

the gypsies have for hundreds of year been a blight on society wherever they have been.in this instance it seems that france is taking the only measure possible to keep the country from becoming a human trash heap.

G. R. Lee| 9.3.10 @ 7:40AM

This diatribe leaves out the inconvenient fact that these "travelers" usually take over private property in order to set their camps up. Their lifestyle choice has created multiple generations of uneducated and illiterate who cannot be employed but somehow afford to buy campers, trucks and expensive euro gasoline to travel with. The fact that the overly tolerant Euro weenies prefer Muslim immigrants over Gypsies should tell you something.

Mike Rogers| 9.3.10 @ 8:44AM

Exactly so - They take over private property, or town parks, destroying everything in their path, as well as stealing, cheating and pillaging the surrounding area.
There is a simple way for Roma to make themselves welcome - Obey the laws, do honest work, and buy or rent the property they camp on. If they cannot or will not do this, then they are uncivilized savages who should have only the choice of jail, deportation, or both.
Bravo Sarkozy - now will the British government grow enough spine to do the same before their increasingly resentful citizens arm themselves for self-defense?

joli| 9.3.10 @ 3:56PM

More to the point, will OUR government... oh wait, this isn't about Mexican immigration.

loulou| 9.3.10 @ 12:54PM

Both gypsies AND Muslims should be expelled. Perhaps this is a harbinger of good things to come. Have to start somewhere.

1389AD| 9.3.10 @ 2:29PM

I am not a Roma, but I do live full-time in a motorhome, in an RV park. Nearly everyone who lives in the RV park is either retired, has a job, or runs a small business.

The Roma who are involved in crime (by NO means all of them) need to be encouraged to educate themselves and to find gainful employment. I believe that churches and private charities, not governments, should take the lead in this regard.

KyMouse| 9.3.10 @ 3:13PM

Perhaps this is no longer part of Gypsy lore, but for centuries (I have read), they said that they had God's permission to steal because a Gypsy stole the nail that was going to be driven through Jesus' heart at His crucifixion.

I hope they no longer teach their children that. Believing that they have God's blessing to steal would make their reformation almost impossible.

bruce b| 9.6.10 @ 9:38PM

as for the roma wanting to better their lott and raise their living standards this wishful thinking on your part. it seems to be that they enjoy their lifestyle,it;s been inbred over centuries,this is one of those things that will never change.

maverick muse| 9.6.10 @ 7:50AM

"The fact that the overly tolerant Euro weenies prefer Muslim immigrants over Gypsies should tell you something."

I wondered when someone would make that connection.

As far as "rights" go, at least the Roma have been an intrinsic part within the European scene all along.

The unassimilated yet currently unemployed Muslim immigrants likely entered with visas, unlike the Roma. That's legal reason the French would use to target Roma who overtly thieve and beg aggressively. Regarding the legal business discriminating against Roma for passing through EU open borders, again, because the Roma carry no passport/papers?

S.L. Toddard| 9.3.10 @ 7:50AM

it is clear that the French body politic is increasingly inclined to favor public order, national identity, and self-determination over softer, universalistic values.

Now if only America will follow France's lead, we Americans may retain for ourselves a country. If we fail our future as a corrupt Mexican colony is sealed.

Truth to Power| 9.3.10 @ 7:57AM

Is this Debbie Schlussel's shtick these days? When you demonstrate that you'll say anything you can't be taken seriously.

S.L. Toddard| 9.3.10 @ 9:03AM

I never have any idea what you're talking about.

loulou| 9.3.10 @ 12:55PM

Do you ever, moron?

S.L. Toddard| 9.3.10 @ 1:05PM

*sigh*

nev·er [nev-er]
1. not ever; at no time: Such an idea never occurred to me.
2. not at all; absolutely not: never mind; This will never do.
3. to no extent or degree: He was never the wiser for his experience.

Occam's Tool| 9.3.10 @ 2:27PM

Yup, SL, definition three fits you, as the film noir authors would have written, "prezactly."

Truth to Power| 9.3.10 @ 2:47PM

I guess it is probable that you write things with no idea of the source and that you really don't care if it accomplishes some ideological purpose. Russell Kirk would be proud. Being an ideologue is never having to say you're sorry.

S.L. Toddard| 9.4.10 @ 3:04PM

So your contention is that I watch Debbie Schlussel? That is the point of this?

Also for the record please re-read all of your posts so far in response to my observation. Are you an adult? Seriously, read them. That is how, as an adult, you participate in a civilized exchange of ideas? If you disagree then why not say that, and tell me where I've gone wrong?

BTW, are you even in disagreement with my point (that government should do farm more to protect the American people via enforcing immigration laws), or was this whole idiotic exchange meant as a vain attempt to expose me as a Fox News viewer? Because there more than a couple people here who can attest that I am not. You are simply, though unsurprisingly, wrong in your assumption. Objectively, definitively incorrect. I cannot watch Fox without breaking out into hives. Of fury.

Speaking of, it might interest you to know that fellow commenter Nick was once in an avante-garde hip hop jug band called Hives of Fury. True story.

Truth to Power| 9.4.10 @ 3:29PM

There is nothing civilized about you, Toddard. You desired to be an irritation and you are one. I just want to remind that you are irritation with no redeeming value. You never desired common cause and you will get none. You destroy, you do not make. In short you are that disgusting political vermin, the crank.

S.L. Toddard| 9.5.10 @ 1:50PM

I'm sorry, but this exchange demonstrates quite the opposite, and does so rather conclusively.

Regards.

Nick| 9.5.10 @ 9:47PM

Why are you dragging me into this, Toddard?

I live in your head, don't I? You can't stop thinking about how many times I've bested you, huh?

Have you learned that "compare" and "contrast" are synonyms yet? Also, do you still believe allowing Arab grandpas to visit their old out-houses will lead to Middle East peace? Ha-ha!

S.L. Toddard| 9.6.10 @ 8:05AM

I saw you'd posted and thought I'd give you a "shout-out", as the kids say. No insult intended - just kidding around.

Nic| 9.7.10 @ 10:56AM

Mr. Toddard,

No insult inferred.
I, also, was just joking. Hence, the "ha-ha!"

Occam's Tool| 9.3.10 @ 2:19PM

SL Toddard and Debbie Schussel have NOTHING in common. SL is a nasty little antisemite.

On the subject of gypsies: it is always interesting who the French decide to pick on and defend themselves against. It's usually never anyone that can really harm them, in the eternal nature of bullies.

Truth to Power| 9.3.10 @ 2:50PM

Toddard will repeat Schlussel lies if it fits some larger purpose. The fact that he is a nasty little bigot makes that humorous.

Lullabys, Legends and Lies| 9.3.10 @ 9:04AM

Toddard: Haven't seen you here in a minute or two, I thought you drowned during the big flood in the Spring. Finally got out of the Hospital, huh? How are your Red Sox doing? L.G.Y's!! You're only 8 games back right now (6.5 back for the Wild Card), and plenty of games still to go.

S.L. Toddard| 9.4.10 @ 3:05PM

Why I oughtta....!

Alan Brooks| 9.5.10 @ 8:35PM

"SL Toddard and Debbie Schussel have NOTHING in common. SL is a nasty little antisemite."

Good thing Toddard doesn't dislike Mexicans as much as he dislikes Jews, because in that case he might say the wrong thing to gang of latinos and be beaten up.

Dave| 9.6.10 @ 7:31PM

How embarrassing, right out in public, too.

maverick muse| 9.6.10 @ 8:07AM

The parallel seems obvious; what the Roma have always been to Europe, the Mexicans have always been to the US, except for the differences.

In the US, the problem only began recently. It isn't as if the Mexican families ORIGINALLY populating SW territories prior to annexation were squatters. Many in California held lands granted to their families from Spain. Our American problem with Mexico is in that nation's relatively recent official program to export Mexicans illegally into the US, with our own federal authorities in both major political parties encouraging illegal immigration by refusing to enforce laws; and by our own government refusing to protect American citizens being assaulted, kidnapped, raped and murdered by Mexican criminals in the US. Our current American President is assaulting the border states, targeting Arizona and Arizonans for having demanded constitutional law enforcement by federal authorities, and for demanding protection of life and property which at this point, the federal government officials are responsible for taking from citizens.

Ed| 9.3.10 @ 8:02AM

My sister in law visited France this summer and she said that the Gypsies were a plague. They make our urban street hustlers look like a troop of Brownie Scouts.

She is a die hard liberal and a Obama supporter. If she thought the Gypsies were out of control, the situation there must be very bad.

bruce b| 9.6.10 @ 9:52PM

ed it;s like the song says"grpsies,tramps and thieves"

RINOWeenie| 9.3.10 @ 8:06AM

You conservatives should show a little more compassion for your fellow human beings. Those poor gypsies,tramps,and thieves can not help but live as they do,it is in their DNA. Think of all the great literature,plays,and art that have included gypsies in their subject matter. Where would we be all these centuries without a pitiful wandering band of scallawags to help keep us on our toes? We as a progressive nation should take in all the indigent rejects from the gypsy communities and set them up in our urban wastelands,such as Detroit,and subsidise their wandering life-style.

Christopher Kelleher| 9.3.10 @ 8:11AM

Apparently, your website is malfunctioning. I clicked onto the site and, somehow, got this article from the Sunday New York Times magazine.

Steve| 9.3.10 @ 8:47AM

Lol !

No matter how one might wish to dissect the sociological meaning of it all, the fact remains that these folks are useless, sometimes dangerous, grifters. They are notorious here (Pacific Northwest). Keep them on the move lest they settle down and become more highly organized in their plundering.....like home-grown leftists.

Sheila| 9.3.10 @ 1:52PM

Spot on! I dealt with some "tsigane" during my time at the U.S. Embassy in Bulgaria. They proudly embody every single negative truth pointed out in these comments. Go to some of the websites that have the truth out of Europe - the locals in England, in addition to being silenced and outnumbered by all the Pakistani Muslims, are increasingly being driven from their homes by squatting bands of Gypsies. Since it would violate their human rights to forcibly evict them, the local PC police advise people to abandon their own homes to these enrichers. Why doesn't Mr. Omolesky invite some home with him, instead of wasting webspace with this drivel? Decline and fall.

RCV| 9.5.10 @ 2:46PM

It's embarrassing to learn that you represented our country abroad in any capacity.

cyberdog| 9.3.10 @ 8:41AM

We already have 12 million illegal Gypsies of our own to deal with

Melvin| 9.3.10 @ 9:08AM

To put it bluntly Roma, Travelers, or Gypsies are vermin with drivers licenses. They lie, cheat, swindle, steal, and just about every illegal activity that can be thought of and then some.
Roma are not just regulated to Romania or Bulgaria, many hail from Ireland and other countries situated on the European Continent.
They are masters at playing the victimization card and are so mobile that it is impossible for law enforcement and the judicial system in the country that they are a plague to make any headway in curbing their illegal activity.
Regardless of what the U.N. states. Roma, Gypsies, and Travelers do not and will not become a functioning law abiding member of the country that they temporarily reside in.
The Gypsies behavior goes back hundreds of years they're not going to change their lifestyle, they'll just move on to another country until they'll wear out their welcome and the cycle repeats itself.
I don't have much love for the Euro Snobs, but they have been dealing with these people for Centuries, and I have to agree with them, these Gypsies, Roma and Travelers are indeed a problem something akin to Locusts.
Many years ago, I forgot what area in the United States had a problem with Irish Travelers who came here to set up shop starting with roofing scams on the elderly. Nothing much became of them because when law enforcement became involved the Travelers had moved on without a trace of unfinished roofs with substandard materials, and a large number of pissed and ripped off senior citizens.

A Balrog of Morgoth| 9.3.10 @ 9:19AM

The Travelers you mention are based out of South Carolina.

Tom in Michigan| 9.4.10 @ 10:28AM

Much of this problem is centered around the Great Lakes states. We've had incidents involving child abuse noted in Indiana and, here in the Detroit area, the roofing scam is rampant. They buy 5-gallon buckets of aluminum paste , which is a common pigment-from a chemical distributor and convince folks they need a new roof. They paint the roof with the paste and make off with the oldsters' money.

I've had almost no contact with them but, I did have a really weird experience with alleged Gypsies. I was walking my dog one day when he, normally calm and lovable went ape-shot barking at two women perusing items at an Iraqi neighbor's garage sale. I pulled him away and apologized profusely. My Iraqi neighbor later laughingly informed me the two ladies were indeed Gypsies and, in his opinion my dog was a better judge of character than me. He also told me the Gypsies were treated terribly by the Iraqi Muslims (he is an Iraqi Christian) but, he also told me that his past experiences with them in Iraq had been generally "unpleasant." So, it seems they have a bad reputation everywhere.

investorcs| 9.3.10 @ 9:13AM

Let's see now, Europe can adopt strict measures against Gypsies who are themselves nominally European, but refuses to do anything about Islam?

Patrick| 9.4.10 @ 1:35AM

Islam is a weapon against Christianity, and is therefore cherished by the European elite. Gypsies are of no use to them.

TexasEngineer| 9.3.10 @ 9:45AM

What of the Roma belief that ALL property is rightfully theirs...and that just because someone else happens to possess it....they will immediately claim it (ie: steal everything in sight). I had my run-in with the Gypsies in Frankfurt am Main...caught the 9-11 year old kid by the arm with his hand in my pocket. My passport and wallet were in my boot...he was about to steel a folded wad of tour company brochures. Half a dozen of his comrades descended to distract me and help to free their fellow thief. Yeah...he got away before I could get the Polizei

martin j smith| 9.3.10 @ 9:46AM

investorcs has hit my nail so to speak right on. There was an article abput France's capitulation of Muslim groups by permitting them to take over sertainstreets in Paris for religious purposes. They apparently had their own security guards and police looked the other way it was reported.
There was in this context debate abut the Burqua
France as in other countries picks and choses who they are going to clamp down on and who they are not. I have no doubt, that Gypsies pose noticeable headaches for the french authorities. But islamic Radicals eliminate the headaches by cutting off the head entirely. So --I think I see what is happening in france and to a alrge extent why. I would apply the same to the rest of Eureope. It is cowardice plane and simple and the Frnch have and in the end pay very dearly for their position.
Let us not in the USA go that route. No to the Ground Zero Mosque!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ray| 9.3.10 @ 10:13AM

This article has brought out the worst of AS's members. Gypsies are vermin? They are all criminals? What's up with you people? Are you going to target the Jews next?

RCV| 9.3.10 @ 10:33AM

Yet another group for TAS readers to demonstrate their warm Christian love towards.

Occam's Tool| 9.3.10 @ 2:22PM

You know, RCV, on most everything you are an a**, but in this ONE case, you are correct.

John II| 9.3.10 @ 10:40PM

Well, I usually agree with Occie, but not this time.

To RCV:

Aw shut up, Ricky. You obviously have never seen the important 1935 Laurel and Hardy vehicle "The Bohemian Girl," based on the 1844 Balfe opera of the same title--although sometimes confused with the less enchanting 1896 Puccini opera "La Boheme."

In those days, the centuries-old romantic drivel about gypsies was balanced by a rueful nod to the reality. But no longer. Nay, now we have mostly the likes of Ricky, making any self-respecting gypsy rogue puke.

Curse you, Count Arnheim, I say, but curse you as well, treacherous Gypsy Queen. And curse all pig-dog liberals whose pick-pocket politics explain the left's affinity for the gypsy mystique and stock-in-trade.

And now back to the finale of "The Creature from the Black Lagoon" (1954), a symbolic tale of social work gone wrong.

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 12:47PM

You'd do Adolf, another Gypsy-hater proud, John-boy.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 3:08PM

That's MISTER John-boy to you, Ricky. You must learn to respect your elders pro forma, even if you can't manage to respect your betters in wit, intellect, cogency, and film-knowledge.

And now back to a relaxing Saturday with Bullwinkle before embarking on a serious bout with "Abbott and Costello Meet the Gypsies."

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 4:05PM

...and I 'm back to the Michigan-UConn opener.

Anthony A| 9.3.10 @ 3:42PM

I guess when Jews start stealing, mugging, and rampaging through the streets, they will be next, but up to this point I haven't seen gangs of yarmulke wearing kids committing criminal acts.

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 12:51PM

The very same canards the Nazis used against Jews as a matter of fact. They were said to be a criminal class who committed all kinds of unspeakable crimes against the good Christians of society. Racism rarely comes up with much new. The Roma are a proud people who have endured much over history.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 3:37PM

Good Christians? But Ricky, good Christians were persecuted and murdered by Schickelgruber, in rather large numbers: some 3000 priests in Poland alone, not to mention the one-way ticket to the death camps accorded every single Protestant clergyman in Silesia.

The Nazis themselves cooked up an ancillary ideology called "Positive Christianity" analogous to the "official" Catholic Church in today's Communist China. The "good Christians," collectively called the "Confessing Church," went underground, and their leaders were relentlessly and more or less thoroughly hunted down by the SS.

I could go on, but I'll miss the next Bullwinkle cartoon. You need to brush up on your German history, Ricky, and resist the temptation to associate the Nazi renegade with the Christian witness.

I know it's hard for you, an idiotized liberal attitudinizer, to replace ideological posturing with hard-earned knowledge, but you'll find the effort bracing, I assure you.

[Grandkids are calling for the next Bullwinkle--yes, yes, my-own-flesh-and-blood, Grampa is coming . . .]

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 4:08PM

I was using "good Christians" in the ironic sense, Mr. Johnny. Bonhoffer wouldn't be comfortable on TAS either.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 4:55PM

Ah yes--irony. The single most characteristic pose of the so-called post-modern era, although it reaches back to pre-World War I days, according to the novelist Richard Powers ("Three Farmers on Their Way to a Dance," 1985)--but especially acute since World War II, according to David Gelernter in "Dead in the Water," an essay appearing in the August 9 issue of the evil neo-con rag "The Weekly Standard."

Irony. Myself, I never touch the stuff. I prefer Knob Creek in good times and Jack Daniels in leaner times. Getting used to Jack in the sixth year of liberal-left control of Congress.

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 5:06PM

Every drop made in Lynchburg, Tennessee. Be good to your liver, Johnnie.

Litvi| 9.3.10 @ 4:01PM

Ray, have you ever come across tsiganes in their natural setting (greater urban Europe)? If you had ever witnessed their particular form of conniving, conspiring criminality, you would know better than to whimper at these comments. The truth hurts, kid. Get over it.

Claiming you're a Gypsy is a declaration you're a member of a tribe. Not a tribe strung together by dilute ethnic or genetic traces, but of one strong, common cause: a committed lifestyle. You can live that way and force your kids to live that way, or you can get your S together and stop calling yourself "Gypsy" when you quit the sociopathic behavior. Nice try on the Jewish race card though.

jd| 9.3.10 @ 10:32AM

I see nothing wrong with deporting Gypsies from European countries when they do not contribute anything. They do not want to assimilate or respect the cultural traditions of those societies that they infiltrate. I have been accosted numerous times in Europe by Roma beggars who choose to live lives of criminality and thuggery. If they do not want to educate themselves, or be productive members of society then France and every other European country should deport them. There is nothing racist or inhumane about society trying to preserve their society. That being said, I do feel the bigger scourge in Europe right now is the Muslim society. I agree with a previous blogger who feels that this policy by France is really all about placating the Muslims. Even Europeans are starting to awake from their PC-induced sleep and realize the result of turning a blind eye to allowing the Muslim culture of intolerance to permeate their societies.

scythe| 9.3.10 @ 10:44AM

This is laughable. START EVICTING AND DEPORTING THE MUSLIM HORDES. Then we will know if you have the guts to do what has to be done. For now, you are picking on children in a playground. Take on the real monsters, if you dare.

Siegfried X| 9.3.10 @ 11:19AM

What if a magical spell transformed all illegal immigrants into fundamentalist Christian Reagan conservative Republican voters? Does anyone think that Obama and his RINO allies would continue to allow the illegals to remain in the US?

No way. Democrats would take action. Every inch of the border would have fences, barbed wire, moats with crocodiles and star wars death star laser guns. Obama would issue shoot-to-kill orders against the illegals, and would be patrolling the border himself.

Patrick| 9.4.10 @ 1:42AM

You forgot the burrowing death-bots, but yeah.

Berl Goetz| 9.3.10 @ 11:42AM

Sarkozy's whistling in the dark. He reminds me of Clinton shooting off a few cruise missles to distract attention from himself. It's easy to pick on a few foreign Gypsies while ignoring the truly unmanageble foreigner problem.

maverick muse| 9.6.10 @ 8:20AM

"It's easy to pick on a few foreign Gypsies while ignoring the truly unmanageable foreigner problem."

What was that pet name Carla has for her Sarkozy? My little poodle?

One could imagine that he's establishing precedence upon which to deport Muslims next.

Something I haven't seen in the comments yet, I noted in the article that the Roma children in schools are often either segregated or put into remedial classes. No doubt the need, given that part of the old tradition was being illiterate, and given the bad character traits already embedded in these Roma beggar children, they'd completely disrupt classrooms and be bad influences on the other children. Feeling sorry for the Roma children hardly makes it right to ruin the education of everyone else.

Mike| 9.3.10 @ 12:39PM

Given the lectures the EU has given on "diversity" and "tolerence" I'm shocked to be reading this article. I'm further shocked this hasn't been taken up by the UN and a commision hasn't been formed. Based on past EU statements on similiar matters the gypsies should be given a designated homeland and subsidized for past discrimination. Furthermore children in EU schools must be taught how they are inherently racist against Gypsies and they are what abominable people ruled Europe in the past given this racism. Also a "cleansing" of the European soul must start immediately (by programs and subsidies of course), to protect their image abroad. Yes the EU has alot to account for, if one takes their retoric on similiar matters in other countries seriously.

ubu roi| 9.4.10 @ 1:09PM

And from that terrible sense of guilt and moral outrage, the EU could propose that the Jews in Israel should be forced concede land to the continental Gypsies; a homeland for these poor, put upon victims of racism.

Matt| 9.3.10 @ 12:44PM

I had to read almost the entire article before I found any statistics about Roma crime: "With crimes committed by Romanians (many of whom are Roma) reported to have increased by 259 percent in Paris over the last eighteen months, with some one in five Parisian thefts perpetrated by a Romanian, and with constant strains on the welfare system exacerbated by the presence of illegal aliens, it was inevitable". If a vey small percentage of the population creates a disproportionate amount of crime, the people need to be protected. Good for France

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 12:55PM

That's right. Who cares if the innocent get punished along with the guilty? Instead of punishing the criminals, let's punish everybody who looks like the criminals! Does that have a familiar ring to it? The racism and imbecility on this site is breathtaking.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 4:08PM

ARE breathtaking, Ricky. You need a plural verb with a compound subject. The terms "racism" and "imbecility" cannot really be taken as redundant--if one assumes, charitably, that you, for example, are not yourself a racist, inasmuch as you surely write like an imbecile.

And now back to preparation for a double feature this evening: the incomparable Gypsy Rose Lee starring in two of her best flicks: "Ali Babba Goes to Town" (1937) and "Babes in Bagdad" (1952).

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 4:13PM

Are "grammarian" and "anal-retentive fascist" redundant? I think not. White and Strunk were probably not fascists.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 4:35PM

That's "Strunk and White," Ricky. E.B. White wrote the little gem, but cribbed much of the order and detail from mimeographs (an old technique of copying which I'm old enough to remember using quite a bit in my early teaching days: very messy and clumsy) of lectures delivered by William Strunk, Jr., a legendary writing teacher at Columbia back in the 1920's.

White wanted Strunk's name to be first in the order of author credit, although Strunk was already long deceased when the first edition of the gem came out in 1959.

Meanwhile, you must work on expanding your vocabulary, Ricky, so that your attempts at verbal abuse carry more punch. The term "anal-retentive fascist" is almost desperately lame owing both to its pretension and to its triteness. You need to work on your diction as well as your grammar if you hope to insult me properly.

[Oh boy! The grandkids are calling again, and there's another "Fractured Fairy Tale" between Bullwinkle episodes!]

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 4:54PM

Since I was referring to the authors, not the work, Jack, the "correction" was inappropriate. I hope you do better on your students' papers. Having reached my 63rd year, the mimeograph is within memory as well. We used it often at the early leftist protests.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 5:07PM

Oh. Given your language and thought, I took you for either a college kid or a dude in his twenties, although "anal-retentive" DID seem strangely dated and sixtyish. You don't have long gray hair that you wear in a ponytail, do you?

Anyhow, in any further communication, I shall refer to you as Richard. I always respect the elderly, even the ones that are younger than I.
(I normally say "than me," but I'm trying to be ironic.)

Bullwinkle is over at last. On to Abbott and Costello. I am happy to learn that the allusions are not necessarily lost on you.

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 5:34PM

Unfortunately, I wouldn't have enough hair to make a pony tail even if I wore it long, which I don't. And if you're going to be formal, it would be Robert, Mr. John.

Another Fascist Grammarian| 9.7.10 @ 3:49AM

Would not Strunk and White have recommended "...even the ones who are younger..."?

Another Fascist Grammarian

maverick muse| 9.6.10 @ 8:25AM

Paris: 259% increase in Roma crimes

Yet only 1 in 5 thefts are committed by Roma.

Who are the other 4 out of 5 thieves in Paris? And what increase in Paris crimes are seen in the Muslim population, AND IN THE GAUL population?

martin j smith| 9.3.10 @ 1:09PM

There are trolls --maybe they are gysies in disguisguise who knows. Anyway you can be sure that if your typical Lefty who plays the race,ethnic reilgious or other card were in a situation where their lives were ones in danger-they would be the first to ask for federal help to get rid the problem. Of that i have no doubt. It would really help in this kind of debate if there were intellectualy honesty. But, I don't expect it.

maverick muse| 9.6.10 @ 8:27AM

Traditionally, the Roma claim no homeland, and have no God.

james wilson| 9.3.10 @ 1:23PM

Did American Spectator post this article as a joke, a provocation, or out of ignorance?

It is not a lifestyle; it is a life, a language, a nation. It is vain to speak of inclusion on their behalf when all their customs are deliberately arranged against that.
School is not permitted, literacy is not permitted, new and different associations are not permitted, movement is seasonal and constant, so assimilation is made impossible, as is law enforcement. That is not a coincidence.
Marriage is arranged by age twelve. Roles are defined. Our role is to be their marks.
I’ve known a few gypsies half out of the life and accomplished in the new ones; one was a great concert violinist. They were all illiterate. In several languages.
Only by avoiding assimilation could they have lasted a thousand years, but that does not mean that people are not well within their rights in avoiding what they bring.

KyMouse| 9.6.10 @ 3:52PM

Well said, Mr. Wilson. Who appreciates being fleeced by a thief? If the Roma want to be treated better, they themselves should treat others better and not prey upon them.

Beyond the material damage that they do -- stealing money and other valuables -- they damage people's trust in one another. And that hurts all of society.

Siegfried X| 9.3.10 @ 2:43PM

This seems like a left-wing smear article, so one wonders why it is on American Spectator. The article focuses on ethnicity, which is irrelevant here, instead of actions. If the suspects have broken some kind of laws, like vagrancy or illegal entry, then they should be punished according to the law.

Really this seems like the typical "race card" approach, that some criminals are caught red handed, and they blame their race. If a "Roma" machine guns some children in cold blood, should their crime be ignored because they are Roma? That's the approach of the typical, soft-on-crime Democrat.

kingsmill| 9.3.10 @ 3:18PM

Has the AS been taken over by Euro trash?

Earlier in the week we had the de-balled American expatriate in Paris, who decried the state of ignorant America. His musings were the result of his extensive dealings with Leftists in Brookline, MA (the home of Mike Dukakis and origin of Michael Bloomberg), while visiting for a few weeks.

Now we have a paean to the plight of the gypsies in totalitarian France. Someone needs to get back from vacation. The ruling class has taken over the Spectator.

Dai Alanye| 9.3.10 @ 4:16PM

Love 90+% of the comments on this article. After all, if a people have made themselves universally despised, there just might be some concrete reasons for it.

Rom: An ethnic group who trace their origins to medieval India. The name Rom comes from their long sojourn in (per some sources) the eastern Roman Empire or in Romania. Gypsy comes from Egyptian, a mistaken identity.

Marin Juvete| 9.6.10 @ 5:16AM

"Rom" means "men" in Gypsy language. They change their name (gypsies) into "roma" in 1971 at The World Gypsy Congress. So there is not a connection betweet their actual name and Romania. I have read here even a bigger stupidity, someone was calling gypsies "romans" How stupid...

Redstateboy| 9.3.10 @ 5:03PM

Well if Barack Hussien Obama was French President, Eric Holder was Minister of Justice, there was a potential for the Gypsies to be a New entitlement voting block for his political party; the Gypsies wouldn't have a worry.

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 12:58PM

That's right. They might have a chance to be judged on their individual merits, instead of lumped into a "bad class" and discriminated against as a group.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 4:13PM

Bad class. Bad class? You mean, a "bad class" like, ferinstance, conservatives or Christians or TAS readers or movie buffs or Tea Partiers or hunters or . . . ?

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 4:59PM

That's "tea baggers" Johnny. All the groups you mentioned share in common choices or actions they have made. Unlike blacks, homosexuals (spare me your usual off-analysis of the term), Roma, etc.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 5:28PM

Gypsies don't choose to be gypsies in their time-honored capacity as thieves and hucksters and layabouts? Blacks are analogous to homosexuals, when some brave shrinks and all normal people know perfectly well that acting out the homosexual impulse is a choice?

Have you no respect for gypsies? Have you such contempt for homosexuals? Have you no Jack in your liquor cabinet? . . . no wait, that last question doesn't fit; I was on a rhetorical roll.

My GOD, you're condescending, Richard! What have you learned in your 63 years? Have you no interest in the concrete human condition apart from your lazy ideological categories? Have you no respect for my time with my grandkids watching Abbott and Costello?

That last rhetorical question SORT of fits. I'll have to think about it.

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 5:38PM

Your love for Abbott and Costello, and time spent with your grandchildren, are among the things I DO respect most about you, sir.

John II| 9.4.10 @ 6:34PM

Thank you, Robert. I shall take your kind remark under advisement. Meanwhile, the kids are calling again, but I'm a little concerned with the way they've taken to addressing me: "Haaaaayyyyyyyy, Abbott!"

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.4.10 @ 9:02PM

We're buying shrimp, RCV. Well done. He is kicking your butt so try the nice gambit. I would say that you were pathetic except that it would be unkind to a minimum wage worker. Stop using references to gay sex acts. Most people have you figured out but the constant reference is making it hard for you to make any of our talking points effectively. I wish you would follow our guidelines. Say something about the summer of recovery, wind farms or the Chevy Volt. Compare me to Mussolini or Hugo Chavez. Hugo is the best. Other countries are coming out of their recessions (the ones that didn't listen to me) and he is considering food rationing even though oil is selling at pretty decent price. Only a fellow socialist could accomplish something like this. Wow. Well I am playing some hoops tonight. The Secret Service has lowered the basket to 8 feet and I will practice some of my slams. For some reason this reminds me of my academic career.

Mark| 9.3.10 @ 5:50PM

Gypsies were stealing two thousand years before the baby Jesus was born. Another two thousand and they're still at it. They are in this country as well. I know from experience.

maverick muse| 9.6.10 @ 8:54AM

Wikipedia mentioned the Romani departure from Northern India following the Muslim invasion. Who knows what they were like before leaving South Asia.

Quote:

Romani populations carried large frequencies of particular Y chromosomes (inherited paternally) and mitochondrial DNA (inherited maternally) that otherwise exist only in populations from South Asia.

Indian origin was suggested on linguistic grounds as early as 200 years ago.[1] The name ultimately derives from a form ḍōmba- 'man of low caste living by singing and music', attested in Classical Sanskrit. The majority of historians accepted this as evidence of an Indian origin for the Romanies. Some scholars maintained that the Romanies acquired the language through contact with Indian merchants.

Contemporary scholars have suggested one of the first written references to the Romanies, under the term "Atsingani", (derived from the Greek ατσίγγανοι - atsinganoi), dates from the Byzantine era during a time of famine in the 9th century. "Atsinganoi" was used to refer to itinerant fortune tellers, ventriloquists and wizards who visited the Emperor Constantine IX in the year 1054.

Jeamar37| 9.3.10 @ 7:56PM

Sorry to admit I didn't bother to read the whole article, but what I saw on newsreels of the gypsy communities in France caused me to believe that depsite the apparent social injustice--or justice-- of their expulsion, the squalor in which they apparently live for decades amount to a public health hazard in any civilized country.

charles794| 9.3.10 @ 8:35PM

One old woman living in the part of Slovakia with a number of gypsy "settlements" around her house summed it up thus: some countries have earthquakes, some have tornadoes, malaria, locusts, etc.; we have gypsies...

Rowdy Boots| 9.4.10 @ 2:33AM

No country can survive with identity groups making their own laws.

The Muslims in France, the Roma, they have to conform to local laws. The drug gangs in America need to be handled in the same way: CORNFORM TO LAW OR LEAVE.

SAME FOR ILLEGALS IN AMERICA.

ROWDY BOOTS

Bill| 9.4.10 @ 3:05AM

What a nice fairy tale. The people in Slovenia would be amused.

Mundabor| 9.4.10 @ 7:24AM

So, hundreds of gypsies terrorise and vandalise a small French village after a dangerous criminal in their midst has been rightly shot by the police, and the author of this article still can't see the public order problem and the "I'll do as I please and cry racism if you oppose me"-mentality common to so many of them?

I have lived in Italy 26 years. Sarkozy is absolutely right. One might say he is too moderate. Most (and I mean MOST) law-abiding citizens in Italy would agree with me.
Political Correctness is the #1 enemy.
Mundabor

mihu| 9.4.10 @ 9:46AM

let me save you all from the common ignorance when it comes to the gypsies question

they are gypsies NOT Roma. the f***ing Ion Iliescu, a neocomunist who was the president of Romania after the so called Revolution in 1990, named them Roma. I guess for beeing political correct. there is no connection between the latin romanian people and these far asian gypsies

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 9:32PM

They were called "Roma" or "Rom" and their language "Romany" for centuries before Iliescu was even born. But you are correct that that they have no particular connection with Romania or it's Slavic peoples.

RCV| 9.4.10 @ 9:42PM

Sorry. That should have read "or it's Slavic and other peoples."

The One We've Been Waiting For| 9.4.10 @ 11:57PM

We're buying shrimp, RCV. Nice attempt at a recovery but these people are aware of your total dependence on Wikipedia. Are you still making claims that you have translated texts from their original languages? I always liked that one. Again try to stick to the script. You are not smart enough to get off it. Treat it like a teleprompter. Believe me I know very much what I am talking about. By the way I won the slam dunk contest tonight. As you know I never I never tire in my work for the poor.

martin j smith| 9.4.10 @ 11:26AM

From my perspective the issue of the gypsies is a good case example of European Union cowardice and hypocricy. Lets look at the way the Eu Western Nations deal with Muslims. They pose a far greater problem for the West than the gypsies any day. Yet, the governments say of France, falls over themselves The French and other European countries have fear and loathing of Muslims yet they appease. to give in the Radical Islamic demands--but gypsies--oh we must get rid of them. This is the lesson for me. Perhaps if gypsies were more belligerent--suicide bombings,shootings etc or threats therof maybe they too will get their way in Europe. Who knows. I'm just sayun.

Beyond that I would say this. In myassessment the US thank G-D is not Europe with regard to
Islamic Radical demands. The oppision to the Ground Zero Mosque is very big and the more the Left Elitist insult the people, the more pushback there is. We recognize the danger not in the ordinary Muslim but the nature of their leadership and the direction and goals they want to go towards. Our brilliant mayor Bloomberg has once again found that he was walked into a stone wall that will not go away..

JA| 9.4.10 @ 12:07PM

I hate to say this, but everywhere there are groups of gypsys, you will find crime and copius quantities of litter and very very aggressive panhandlers. Unlike other persecuted groups the gypsies purposefully and willfully - for a thousand years - have decided to engage in unlawful behaviour and they expect everyone else to just put up with it. It is simply their culture and way of life to exist outside societal norms. They existence is parasitic. I do not feel sorry for them one iota.

martin j smith| 9.4.10 @ 12:12PM

I would bet that the average French citizen--native French not an import wolud rather--if given the choice--deal with the Gypsies than the threat to Western Civilization that the Islamic Radicals pose to Europe.

B| 9.4.10 @ 6:25PM

Well, I can get a GENERAL sense of the article, but it would nice if it was written in English.

Tim Jones| 9.5.10 @ 4:55AM

I have Romani friends and have had the pleasure of teaching Romani graduates and undergraduates. They are great people and great fun to be with. Sadly there are people who seem to need somebody to hate. The criticisms that are now being made of the Roma are similar to those made of most oppressed minorities in history. If a Romani commits a theft, racists portray that as if it were typical of the ethnic group as a whole. If a banker from a WASP or other prosperous ethnic group commits a fraud, people rightly don't suggest that it typical of the group concerned. It would be a good thing if more people visited Auschwitz and spent some of their time there in Block 13 reading the stories of constructive Roma and Sinti who had made a positive contribution to society before the Nazi and their collaborators murdered them.

edgard| 9.5.10 @ 5:54AM

I remember the GYPSIES well, back in the war years in the 40ties, when I was just a kid in FLANDERS, around age 10. They used to pass through our town a few times a year and set up in a meadow and come by the houses to inquire if there were any pots or pans that needed soldering, or if any scissors or knives needed to sharpened. they also replated silver forks and spoons, repaired jewelry, yes even fixed rosary beads. I knew about the Jews and the "underground" were being rounded up. but was not aware or ever heard that "our Gypsies" also were prey to the ever watching gestapo. I was mesmerized by the sparks showering from their grinding wheels and dreamed of following them in their wanderings. Ho yes we heard rumors there were some thieves among them.
"The National Giographic" did an excellent article on them years ago, and I believe that they still are coping and eking out a living by doing what they do best, repairing sharpening tools and knives and now they are also in selling and striping used cars for parts. Well I may have aquired my wanderlust and love of violin music from staring in the sparkling stars cascading from the Gypsies whetting stones.
It is a pitty that country leaders, in order to avoid tackling the real menaces in their lands, must chase after, and use as whipping boys a people that is defenseless, resilient, and will survive long after their detractors have been deposed or exposed. ed

AMENBRO| 9.5.10 @ 5:59AM

Thanks for the education. Sincerely appreciate your finely written research & historical fact finding's relevance to the philosophical debates now being foisted by the progressive hypocrites at the US Dept of State as they wage insipid arguments to conceal their chain migration power grabs, Witness their lament as to the DEM vote Bloc loss after hurricane Katrina upon their wards finding better quarters in neighboring states. Meanwhile ISLAM is ripping apart the fabrics of EURO discourse and Middle Eastern Modernity our short dicked State Dept goes after Sheriff Joe for enforcing the law.
Atlas is scrotum-less from shrugging.

martin j smith| 9.5.10 @ 8:21AM

The issue of the gypsies in France resoantes to our policies here and I agree with the above two posts that the Gypsies are scapegoats for the real problesm. In our country people --I mean voters--seem to respond mainly to one thing: Their Immediate economic situation. Which in my view is understandable. Yet, in this regard they confuse the forrest with the trees. Looking at our economy, oh yeah--jobs--the big buzz word ( and yes they are big ) but many voters--I would venture to say--most voters --are no attunded to other kinds of issues that are direct influences on our economic plight. For example--it would take possibly gas prices to rise above 5$
per gallon to possibly awaken the average voter that our energy polcies and dependence on foreign oil is a cause to be concerned about. This means middle eastern, Chavez and our competition with Russia and China for rescources. Very complex. Not a quick sound bite issue. Here is another one: Stealth islamic activities in the US. Oh shure it would be very easy --so to speak--foir voters to viscerally respond ( and correctly so ) to a major terrorist attack--or even a foiled major attempt at a terrorist attack--I mean BIG TIME FOILED-- But many Americans are not aware of non-violent ways in which Islamic Radicals are insinating their way into our culture and society. The ground Zero Mosque is one small example. The reason that it has become such a major concern is because its direct connection with 9/11. Lets look at illegal immigration--there is violence on the border, there is easy infiltration into our country--including non hispanics-terorist type. Yet we have a government more concerned about Mexico that about us and our security. Voters need to be educated about many issues beyond their immediate pocketbook--The gypsies are the French distraction from reality of Islamization of their country. While it is understandable that the pocket book and what is in it is extremely significant--the American people are distracted by things like the race card,and and all the other cards in the deck of our political players. They had better wake up. The Ground Zero Mosque- though seemingly a minor blip in political map has greater implications than many imagine.

Frog in Uniform| 9.5.10 @ 12:07PM

Since you're writing about what appears to be a frog issue (actually it's a european one), forgive my broken English and let me add my comment.

I'm a lowly 1st lieutenant in the French Army Reserve. After years working with the Airborne, I now work with a SWAT team of the Gendarmerie (gendarmes are still military, just like the Italian Carabinieri) that deals with sensitive missions, difficult arrests in hostile surroundings, hostage situations and so on. For obvious reasons, I'm neither allowed or supposed to talk about our work, but I don't mind, as very few officers in France are fluent in english or bother surfing on US conservative websites... Besides, what I'm gonna tell you is not classified in France although the vulgum pecus is maintained in total ignorance of what's happening in his own backyard. Or is he? As a matter of fact, the basic frog is no dumber than his US counterpart, he's in the front seat regarding crime, violence and punishment and he's the first to be unwillingly involved whenever the shiite (poor joke intended) hits the fan. One just has to read the papers between the lines and switch the TV set off when the CareBears start to preach about racism, intolerance and universal love whereas the honest people are the ones who withstand racism and intolerance to their full extent and the law enforcement agencies stand between a hard place and a hammer to prevent this country from turning to civil war. By the way, the CareBears never travel without bodyguards, never own the armored vehicles they ride in (they also favor the Ecureuil helicopter) and live in exclusive securized districts where you and I are not allowed without a badge. Sounds familiar?

Most people jailed in France are either muslims (75%) or gypsies (5%), christian frogs make the last 20%. As I previously mentioned elsewhere in this site (Google is your friend) we still do not know precisely (I mean officially) how many muslims and gypsies live in France. Fortunately we have various means of knowing but the matter is officially taboo. We've been having a crime problem with muslims for decades, but that problem has worsened since Chirac and Sarkozy took over, as the muslims have become extremely arrogant when they realized our jails were so full and our judges were so liberal, they could do pretty much what they wanted in near total impunity.

Most of the muslim criminals that we arrest at dawn, live in what you American would call "projects", those projects may have looked nice when they were built, they now look like Colombian slums, only more dangerous. Why do we arrest them at dawn? Because 1) it's the only time of day when we know where they are. 2)Their friends just went to bed and are too tired after a night spent carjacking, mugging or robbing, so they won't interfere with the arrests, rushing by the hundreds, throwing stones, dropping cinderblocks, petanque steel balls or dead batteries from the 12th floor or burning our vans while we're busy chasing them in the stairwells. Sometimes we're shot at. Wait a minute, aren't all firearms either registered or forbidden in France? No sweat, their muslims brothers from Bosnia or Kosovo will gladly take orders and 2 weeks later they'll deliver crudely made bulgarian ak's or serbian Zastava's M76's for a couple hundred bucks. A few times during our searches, we've seized serbian clones of the US LAW but they've never been used against us, they must be too expensive and their targets of choice are Brink's armored vans.
It sounds incredible that a community which represents (not officially but definitely) 20% of the population use almost 80% of the jail space. I guess if we didn't jail the 20% of frogs (most of them in jail for repeat trafic violations, tax fraud, burglary or non violent crime) we could get rid of the muslim criminals for a while...

The gypsies are a slightly different matter, they're not muslims and we're really lucky they just can't stand each other! What an Axis of Evil we would be facing! They rarely live in houses, their children never go to school and generally do not know how to read and write. Yes, I know what you're thinking, it's a tragedy and a felony not to send your children to school (which is totally free) but who's gonna enforce the law? SWAT cops? Well, they're mean, fast and smart, but they gotta cover their collective ass: Show them the court order. The liberal judge doesn't care? Sorry, kids, the Left would rather maintain you as parasites because you'll never vote, anyway.
But it's not really a tragedy: As they're supposed to be in a state of abject poverty, they have access to the complete welfare system which is no joke in France. They'll have free health care, they'll get a bunch of money every month from various agencies, plus the benefit of very favorable loans to buy brand new vans and campers that won't be registered or insured, they won't pay taxes and will enjoy free access to camping fields -intended for their use only- complete with water and electricity, in every town with more than 500 inhabitants (a law sponsored by a communist depute(1). Not knowing how to read or write implies not having a driver's licence, right? No sweat, again: our brothers gendarmes and policemen have been instructed (verbally) by our Prefets (2) to turn a blind eye to any white Mercedes van with 4 people (without seat belts) on the front seats...

You would expect a community with near automatic access to welfare, free cars and free perks to behave honestly and to keep a low profile, right? Man, what do you know about human nature? It's not enough to have a free car and to enjoy an eternal, virtual driver's licence, how about stolen er... free gasoline and disregarding driving laws? It's how we got the Saint Aignan mess mentioned in the article. How about a little inbreeding so the girls get systematically pregnant as soon as they can? Because having children in France (provided you're not a christian frog) is good business after the third child, it's even more interesting to have twelve children. You do not need to actually bear twelve children, mind you, you just need to have them present when a terrified welfare agent shows up in your 400 people camp and is met with rude behavior and threatening gestures. And welfare doesn't prevent you from making a little money on the side: With China's economic boom boosting the value of metals, it's very common to have miles of guard rails stolen on our highways, or powerlines, even road signs! Burglary is OK as long as you have your children do it for you (nobody goes to jail) but fencing is better although it a little like a Ponzi's scheme: you need more and more stolen goods to pay for the more and more stolen goods you buy... It really becomes a full time family operation with no end in sight...

As I previously wrote elsewhere, you're fooling yourselves if you believe for one moment you'll be spared the kind of situation we're living in. Of course it won't happen overnight, but I've seen the premises appear with the current administration. If you don't care more, your rights will be slightly, but constantly, eroded. One by one. Until you reach the point of no return, European style. This way, instead of musing about racism and intolerance, you'll experience the worst aspects of them: being betrayed by your generosity and the people you've welcomed and feeling like a foreigner and a second class citizen in your own country. God Bless America.

(1)A depute is the equivalent of a representant in your Congress
(2)A departement (France is divided in 99 departements, each having roughly the area of Rhode Island) governor who takes his orders directly from Paris, he's so powerful he can override any written law in the interest of public order if he decides so...

martin j smith| 9.5.10 @ 1:30PM

Frog in uniform: I think a lot more people in the US of A get it than one might think. Underneath the anger at the economic issues are opposition to Socialism in general . Thus the anger and negative predictions for the Democrat Party--this party is NOT DEMOCRATIC!!!!!!!!!!!!

vatvince37| 9.5.10 @ 1:52PM

Signor Omolesky is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts. I note his connection to Slovenia, so I would expect that having lived there, the accumulated populist resentment against the "Roma" would come as no surprise.
I have lived a good deal of my adult working life in Europe, and never - let me repeat: never - have I ever heard a single complimentary word towards the "Roma." Upon my arrival in Rome more than twenty years ago, I watched as a ring of carbinieri, the State police, protected a group of Roma children from literally being attacked by a group of Italians, normally very patient people, who had grown fed up with having their pockets picked. Children of Roma are taught the art of larceny at a very early age. The lament of the French, Italians - and the Spanish - and the Czechs - and the Hungarians - is similar: basta cosi - enough already.
Finally, Signor Omolesky's oblique attempt to bring in the Nazi comparison is ludicrous on its face. What is missing in his piece, and is missing in similar articles that raise the question of deportation of illegal aliens in our country, is whether a sovereign nation has the right, nay, the duty, to remove from its midst people who are unwilling to live according to the rules the host country sets forth. As mentioned, Italy's Minister of the Interior, Roberto Maroni, is picking up the cudgels and has begun a similar program in Italy, where Roma "communities" despoil the landscape. To Signor Maroni, my best wishes, and, in the words of my forebears: Avanti - "Right on."

joe paff| 9.5.10 @ 6:03PM

I love melting pot America! I love Lenny Bernstein,
Miles Davis AND Glenn Gould; I love Groucho Marx AND Bob Hope; I read American Spectator AND Counterpunch; I like real discourse when everyone tries staying on the topic and there's no ad hominem arguments-- and no sweeping cliches like "all Gypsies", "Mexicans", "the French", etc.
Own several businesses for many years and found hard workers and slackers amongst both genders and all ethnic groups. To be truthful, every thief so far has been native born and white--but that's just my experience.
I go to Paris for a month every year and have never been robbed, or accosted, or threatened.
Seek out Gypsy jazz (manouche) every time; Saw Frederick Belinsky in St Julien the Poor and loved it;--I'm seventy and was one of the younger mostly white members of the audience.
I guess I miss the point of "comments"; I think they should focus on the writer's ideas---it appears I should exhibit all my prejudices and bite everyone I don't like.
I do know I lost 35% of my retirement savings and it wasn't to Gypsies or Mexicans; I know BOTH parties fully conspired with those shipping jobs to China and I don't suspect Gypsies did it;
I know I'm seventy and still work full-time.
A final thought: should we close all borders in both directions ? is that where we're heading?

Frog in Uniform| 9.5.10 @ 9:30PM

Monsieur Joe,

With all due respects, I don't think we visited the same parts of Paris at the same time... Paris is a dangerous dump in most of its arrondissements, and I would never let my old man walk its streets by night or use the subway at any time. You speak like a CareBear, it's because you don't actually live in my country and do not have to bear with the trash I face every day. However I thank you for loving my country, but I tell you: The France you see as a tourist is not the actual France. I sincerely hope you keep seeing it as you do for the rest of your life. Bienvenue chez nous, Monsieur.

Bob K.| 9.5.10 @ 11:19PM

I refer readers here to today's BUY THE BOOK review of William Pfaff's " Dark Destiny" by Michael Johnson below.

Johnson had an article here in American Spectator On Line last year on the Gypsys in France. It was written July 28, 2009 and is titled "Gypsy Summer." The sentiments in the article and in the comments to it are much like those here. Click on his name to find it and read it.

It seems to be a popular subject. Kind of keeps minds off the Muslim problem. Which may be the reason for the articles. All Europe seems to be guilty according to the authors. The Gypsy's cause their own problems according to the people who have to deal with them.

I wonder what Wlady and RETJr. think of this?

Bill Gibbons| 9.5.10 @ 11:47PM

I returned from France (Paris) yesterday, where Romas are still hanging around thieving off the tourists. Now they dress like tourists and go up the Eiffel Tower, where they work in groups to pick-pocket unsuspecting tourists.

However, being a licensed Private Investigator, I bought myself a "cafe American," stood in a corner out of the sunlight and watched out for the gypsies. There were two suspects wandering through the corwds on the tower that particular day, but the security staff were already watching them. The groups of Africans hawking cheap souvenirs outside the tower was just as bad and should also be avoided.

Sends them all back. They are nothing but spongers.

Osamas Pajamas| 9.6.10 @ 2:01AM

Well, the Roma are not having IQ or intelligence problems --- it's just that their culture and their education suck. Blame the adults, not the kids. The sins of the adults poop on the children.

Bill| 9.6.10 @ 2:33AM

It's so refreshing to see political correctness thrashed by reality.

martin j smith| 9.6.10 @ 7:49AM

I have a question for those who live or recently lived in France: Is there a difference in danger for the French people ( and nation ) between the islamic radicals and the Gypsies. Is one more of a danger more than the other or equal ? And why is it that it seems to be the Gypsies get the focus--not say the Muslim yuttes who can get violent ? just curious.

D. Singh| 9.6.10 @ 7:52AM

Sir

Mr Omolesky wrote:

‘And it is no coincidence that the crackdown has occurred alongside an overall government-led "debate on national identity" that has been taking place in France over recent months.’

And:

‘The French government has even raised the possibility of contesting Romanian and Bulgarian entry into the Schengen (border-free) European zone in March 2011 due to the regular egress of Roma from those countries.’

And quoting Vaclav Havel: ‘… the treatment of the Roma was a “litmus test” of European civil society.’

This entire episode, the expulsion of the Roma from France, Italy and Spain reveals why the European Union’s destination must, ultimately, be a fascist super-State.

Setting aside any of our prejudices let us try to look at the issues from an objective point of view.

The first point is that there is no such entity as ‘European civil society’. There are real people called the British, French, German, Spanish etc., but there is no such thing as a European demos (‘a people’). This democratic deficit is recognised by pro and anti-federalists. The European Union is as Churchill might have said ‘an empire of the mind’.

It follows that debates over national identity are taking place upon contradictory grounds: on the one hand the federalists (the ruling classes) want a ‘European people’ and on the other hand the peoples of Europe want to maintain their national identities. Nobody (except for the federalists) says ‘I’m a European Unionist first and an Englishman second.’)

One of the political and legal goals of the European Union is to have free movement of persons within its borders (just like a Californian can stay in New York without leaving American territory). France’s possible objection to the admittance of Romania and Bulgaria to the border-free zone in 2011 would violate that principle on ‘racial’ grounds. In other words, Havel’s ‘litmus test’ has already failed.

The point is why should Romanians and Bulgarians be denied moving from one part of the European Union to another part? (Texans would not be denied moving from Texas to New Jersey).

It is no use arguing that a State such as France should be sovereign and therefore be permitted to ignore federal law. In a federal structure there cannot be two sovereign authorities.

Once the precedent is set that some people in the European Union can be expelled then there is no reason to assume why others cannot also be expelled (or at least placed in internal exile) for example, those contrary to the European Union’s Charter of Fundamental Rights who criticise the European Union. This is not a far fetched example:

Article 54 of the Charter states:

‘Nothing in this Charter shall be interpreted as implying any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms recognised in this Charter or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for herein.’

Criticising a ‘right’ is arguably engaging in an activity or performing an act that could be aimed at the destruction of that right.

In other words, the Charter is a potential instrument for suppressing dissent masquerading as a charter for human rights.

mone| 9.6.10 @ 8:09AM

http://www.lmma-r.com/

f| 9.6.10 @ 8:10AM

http://www.lmma-r.com/

yy| 9.6.10 @ 8:11AM

http://www.lmma-r.com/

patrick| 9.6.10 @ 10:10AM

Utterly unbelievable...I actually agree with and support the French. The First Horseman can't be far behind this troubling occurence.

martin j smith| 9.6.10 @ 10:38AM

D, Singh:
There are some themes in your post that are vaguely similar to what is happening in the US. The main one being the conflict of a Government of the people versus a government above the or even versus the peopel. Instead of expelling illegals this government for political reasons wants to bring them in against the will of the people. And, also thru various non-elected governmental agencies averride the people--the"czars" don't you know... What is fascinating and disturbing to me is that is a government and the MSM versus the people. This election cycle should be interesting in both positive and negative ways.

Frog in Uniform| 9.6.10 @ 3:36PM

Monsieur Smith,

-"Is there a difference in danger for the French people ( and nation ) between the islamic
radicals and the Gypsies. Is one more of a danger more than the other or equal ?"
-Let's say openly radical muslims are a minority among muslims, not every muslim forces his wives to wear the infamous burqa. But the problem doesn't stand with radical islam, it stands with islam itself. Every french muslim thoroughly enjoyed 9/11, waving palestinian flags and posters of Ben Laden in every "cite sensible" (euphemistic bureaucratic doublespeak for "sensitive neighborhood" instead of "raghead crime zone"), congratulating themselves while blaming the zionists for the crime.
The basic muslim in France, or anywhere in the world, doesn't educate his son. No one does it for him. The daughter stays home, is educated by the mother, and usually does very well at school, she does not date anybody not only because her husband has already been chosen for her since her birth but also because, should she have the crazy idea of dating a christian or -God forbid- a J.E.W, her father or her brother would kill her (I mean actually) for dishonoring the family.
The son is a completely different matter, he's the little king at home whenever he shows up, he wakes up late, he goes to school sometimes, just to meet his muslim friends and generally spends his day in the stairwells of the "projects" with other muslim dropouts, spitting on the floor, talking trash, listening to loud arabo/african rap, dispatching drugs for adult dealers, scanning the area for possible unmarked police cars, and goes to bed around 0430... Because of lack of guidelines and education, he has no guts and no spine and very easily becomes gang material. The religion won't help because it allows some schizophrenic mindset, you'll tell one thing to a christian, while thinking just the opposite and doing another... You lose every possible sense of responsibility, in fact I've yet to hear once a muslim say: "I'm sorry" or "it's my fault" or "I did wrong" or even "I did it". And when it starts to dawn on you that the judicial system is dickless, that the cops' hands are bound, that the liberal social workers are non judgmental and full of understanding, that the liberal media likes you for "la difference" that you bring to the country that welcomed you, you start thinking "Zarmah! this is a great country! I can get away with pretty much anything!"
Other communities have previously lived in those projects, vietnamese, portuguese, serbs, croats, spanish, blacks from the french West Indies and never behaved like a plague, so the collective housing and lack of playgrounds are not factors of criminality, but the muslims seem conviced that everywhere they live become Dar al Islam, or Islam Property where the laws of our Nation shouldn't be enforced.
So, to answer your question, the most dangerous are the muslims because they make roughly one fifth of the population and because the basic muslim young criminal is very violent and is a wimp, it means they usually will attack you in packs and will try to impress each other by being more violent, especially with elders, ladies or children.
The little creep is almost always a wimp, when you arrest the pack, they act cocky and insult your mom; when you start to interview one separately, he stops talking dirty, he avoids your eyes and will swear on his mom's head (their favorite tactic) that he has nothing to do with anything, he was just passing by... When by chance, you meet the one who wants to kill everybody in your family, just remove your badge and tell him "Ok big guy, one on one. My Sig is locked in the drawer, my colleagues won't come to my help, let's have fun!" he will actually piss in his baggie pants.
The basic gypsy has guts, he doesn't fear anything, he displays no emotion, looks at you straight in the eyes and will gladly accept the fight. As I said earlier, we're lucky they don't get along at all with muslims.

"And why is it that it seems to be the Gypsies get the focus--not say the Muslim
yuttes who can get violent ? just curious."

You have to remember we have politicians in France who pander to the muslims, no one can afford the luxury to disregard the muslim vote, he'd be certain to lose every election. Why do you think we have a pro arab foreign policy? Why do you think Sarkozy put 3 muslims in his administration (Dati, Amara and Yade)?

xcon| 9.6.10 @ 5:23PM

There I was in the Ohio state capitol (also a college town) flush with government cash.
Panhandlers and freaks abounded on every corner.

yuwei| 9.6.10 @ 8:41PM

These Bush-hating Frenchs turn out to be RACIST. They helped the nazis get rid of French Jews. Now they pick up where the nazis left with the Gypsies.

Frog in Uniform| 9.6.10 @ 9:02PM

Yuwei, you're definitely NOT an American, even I could say that. You never travelled to France and don't know s.hit about our history, I can see that too. Spare us your cheap shots about our alleged racism and tell us how you spend your days besides using silly aliases. You cannot be a conservative, you must be a Bush basher and a jew hater. What you do is called "projection" in psychology. I despise unhinged and wicked people with too much time in their hands. You must be a liberal teacher or a community organizer. You stink. Get lost.

Matt| 9.7.10 @ 1:24PM

All my experience with gypsies -- US, France and Lithuania -- from 1980s to today, have been negative. Given that you have whole nomadic communities actively promoting theft and violence.... I say more power to Sarkozy. You can't equate sensible measures with Nazi genocide. The difference is in the ends.

Frog in Uniform| 9.7.10 @ 2:23PM

Quote: "The difference is in the ends."

Monsieur Matt,
I would say the difference is also in the means and in the intents.
We don't want to kick anybody out of our country or to exterminate people. We'd wish the average muslim or gypsy to behave normally and in the limits of the Law and to be a teammate in our community, but it's still wishful thinking and it's not gonna happen. I'm quite pessimistic about Sarko's real agenda. The guy was elected on a cloud of feathers, everybody was so fed up with the inept behavior of Al Jaqsheeraq who let our "banlieues" and "cites sensibles" burn in November 2005, that we gave a blank check to his former Cop in Chief. He had the first 3 months of his mandate when he could have changed the laws for the better and kicked a few dirty asses without anybody hardly raising an eyebrow, he chose instead to just do nothing. The guy is the ultimate demagogic windbag as are most former lawyers. If he suddenly decides to appear to do something it is because of the general election of 2012... The polls are terrible and the odds are bleak. As usual we'll have to choose between crap and garbage, the 2 eabjects sides of an evil medal called "social democracy" that is neither social nor democratic.

Gerald Stephens| 9.7.10 @ 4:32PM

Oh Lord! I had marvelous 2000 word comment on the criminality of Ireland's solicitors practiced in lying, cheating, and stealing until I realized everyone was speaking of 'Tinkers', not 'Stinkers'.

Sorry!

Amiable Chap| 9.8.10 @ 4:35PM

Yeah, I'll rag on the gypsies too. About 8 or 9 years ago, my mother and father, both in their mid-upper 70's then, took a trip to Europe - Germany, Italy, and France. At one point, they found themselves surrounded by gypsies on the train platform in Milan. My mum felt herself jostled by a young woman carrying an infant. Experienced travelers they were, my parents immediately surveyed their belongings and discovered Mamma's wallet was missing. My mother then grabbed the infant from the arms of the young gypsy mother, held it tight, and told them if they wanted the baby back, then they should give her her wallet back. After a few seconds of whispered messages within the gypsy crowd, her wallet appeared towards the back of the crowd and was passed in the air, hand to hand, back to my mother. Before giving back the babe, she quickly determined that nothing was missing. The baby was returned and the Gypsies left pronto.