The American Spectator : The Religious Left and the Ground Zero Mosque

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The Religious Left and the Ground Zero Mosque

By Mark Tooley on 8.27.10 @ 6:09AM

At last there’s a religious cause that excites progressive religious leaders.

How fascinating that the U.S. Religious Left, usually so indifferent to religious liberty when relating to churches, at home, or abroad, has zealously embraced the Ground Zero mosque controversy as a Manichaean struggle between freedom and bigotry.

Churches, especially larger ones, routinely battle zoning bureaucracies or community resistance in the U.S. Poor St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church lost its sanctuary on 9-11 and has struggled for 9 nine years against government inertia to rebuild. If evangelicals had sought to tear down a 150-year-old building near Ground Zero to construct a high rise mega-church and “cultural center” for evangelistic outreach in lower Manhattan, funded by murky sources, the reaction among New York elites can be easily imagined. The groundbreaking, if ever, might occur around 2025, almost certainly at a different location.

But the Cordoba House Ground Zero mosque has been zealously embraced by New York’s mayor and countless others, with fast tracked hopes of completion within one year, just in time for September 11, 2011. The psychology behind the enthusiasm for the mosque on this particular site almost certainly includes a multi-culturalist fervor for non-Western religious and political movements. Touting the Ground Zero mosque is a cheap way to advertise virtue and tolerance in contrast with the ostensible xenophobia of all skeptics.

The zest for the Ground Zero mosque by the chief of the National Council of Churches (NCC) is especially revealing. NCC officials once plausibly spoke for millions of U.S. church members. The NCC has its own towering temple of sorts in Manhattan, the Interchurch Center on Riverside Drive. When built 50 years ago, it symbolized confident Mainline Protestant domination of American culture. But in recent decades, the eviscerated NCC has come merely to echo the surrounding liberal secular culture of its upper Westside neighborhood next to Columbia University.

According to NCC chief Michael Kinnamon, in his endorsement of the Ground Zero Mosque as a “gesture of neighborliness and healing,” “hundreds” of Muslims died at the World Trade Center on 9-11. This claim is remarkable, as it implies that well over 10 percent of the over 2700 victims at Ground Zero were Muslim, even though only about 1 percent of the U.S. population, according to most studies, is Muslim. Even Muslim groups, in their claims, say about 2 percent of the U.S. population is Muslim. This claim from Rev. Kinnamon is revealing, because religious and cultural elites of the left very much want to believe that the U.S. is far more religiously diverse than the reality.

Kinnamon derided the “prejudice,” “ignorance,” and “narrow-minded intolerance” that supposedly fuel all opposition to the mosque at Ground Zero. Ostensibly this same “ignorance” generates “hate crimes and systematic discrimination” against Muslims. Observe Kinnamon’s assumption, so common on the religious and cultural left, that America is hateful and anxious to discriminate against religious minorities. Doubtless among 300 million Americans, some prejudice exists. Doubtless also, the vast majority of American Muslims experience greater freedom and less discrimination than they would commonly experience in majority Muslim countries. But how difficult for figures like Kinnamon to imagine Americans, especially Christians, as any other than victimizers, or religious minorities, especially Muslims anywhere in the world, as any other than victims of Western, Christian or U.S. inspired oppression.

For good measure, Kinnamon darkly recalled with “painful contrition” that “European settlers came to these shores with a determination to conquer and settle at the expense of millions of indigenous peoples who were regarded as sub-human savages.” He also cited American slavery and the World War II era interment of Japanese Americans. Seemingly he believes that passionately endorsing the Ground Zero mosque will atone for some of America’s crimes. Avid, guilt-ridden multiculturalists, with their highly selective historical recalls, never quite explain how all the chauvinistic imperialists who founded the United States somehow inadvertently created the world’s most extravagantly tolerant multicultural democracy.

Sojourners Evangelical Left activist Jim Wallis, in contrast with Kinnamon, at least plausibly pegged Muslim fatalities at Ground Zero on 9-11 at 59, not “hundreds.” But in a vein similar to the NCC chief, he bewailed the “right-wing media” in “full swing to smear my friends Imam Faisal Rauf and his wife, Daisy Khan,” against whom critics are “fabricating” charges to “stoke fear and hatred.” Wallis did not describe the “fabrications.” But reputedly, among other concerns, the Ground Zero mosque imam has defended Hamas and has some favorable views towards Iran’s theocracy. Do these views concern Wallis or Kinnamon at all? Would their support for the mosque not be more credible if they challenged Wallis’s “friend” the imam to disavow his distressing stances that are less than “moderate?” Would a conservative Christian clergy striving to build a mega-church at Ground Zero not face wide criticism if, however implausibly, he were still defending Apartheid South Africa? Would purported concerns about religious liberty similarly protect that pastor from any condemnation?

Wallis characterized opposition to the Ground Zero Mosque as based on the “assumption” that “all” Muslims are “guilty of the crimes committed by terrorists who claim the mantle of Islam.” Of course, Wallis’s charge distorts a more subtle concern. Mosque critics have plausibly warned that a mosque on this particular site will be championed by radical Islamists globally as a symbolic victory. Wallis said he did not want to be held accountable for Christianity’s “fundamentalist extremes,” and neither should American Muslims. Typically the Religious Left is more frightened of conservative Christians than of radical Islamists. But there are not 100 million Christians in the world sympathizing with al Qaeda style terrorism, as surveys indicate that about 10 percent of the world’s 1 billion Muslims do. And there are no Christian theocracies in the world, nor are there any significant Christian theocratic political movements (despite Religious Left fantasies to the contrary) seeking to subvert American democracy with their own coercive “holy” law.

Defending the Ground Zero mosque, while also recognizing the peculiar challenge of integrating even “moderate” Islam into American democracy, would strengthen Wallis’s and Kinnamon’s arguments. But such nuances are strangers to fervid multiculturalists, who distort America, especially its Christians, into mindless ogres, while simplistically insisting on the benign innocence of the rest of the world, especially America’s “victims.”

About the Author

Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (180) | Leave a comment Leave a comment

Appleby| 8.27.10 @ 7:07AM

The problem with the so called Christian Left is their belief that God does not exist and Christ is a mellow dude who just wants everybody to hold hands and singKumbaya. So they act pretty much in disregard of both, in the full belief that they will never be held accountable for this.

I have a sincere Christian friend who is of the Christian Left and she truly believes that Jesus was a socialist. Funny, I went to Bible College for three years and I simply cannot find that part of the New Testament where Jesus stands on the Mall and yells through a bullhorn *Force Your Neighbours To Feed My Sheep!*

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.27.10 @ 8:14AM

Appleby,

You just nailed it. Thank you.

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 7:56PM

Appleby's first paragraph forced me to shudder in horror - I had flashbacks of CCD classes in the 80's.

Of course, those same people who tormented me will shudder in horror soon, when they are powerless before the ways of the remnant of the next generation.

Eric Cartman| 8.27.10 @ 10:08AM

Well, Appleby, it's your BC teachings that are the problem. You see, your Bible was written by dead white males who fashioned a patriarchal society built on the subjugation of woman, blacks, Jews and animals. So of course they wouldn't write about Christ's Social Security plan or his embracing of building Islamic Outreach and Women's Beheading Centers in Jerusalem. Your Christ is just a racist, bigoted, anti-Islamic homophobe!

If you want, I'll send you the real Bible - the one written from the Lost Scrolls of Yogi Ramesh Juan de Carlo, or as they are known to us believers, the Hippie Hollow Beach Scrolls.

Found by an unemployed medical marijuana salesman, Stone River Sushine, these scrolls paint the true picture of Jesus. Did you know Jesus was for taxing the rich and giving free education to all people, including the illegal immigrants from Mexidonia? They were slaves, really, who toiled at the jobs Israelites wouldn't do. Sound familiar?

I was blinded by hatred too, until last night when I picked up a hitch-hiker, Daisey Love Sunshine Autumn. She was explaining her religion but I had too bad a headache to listen. She gave me some aspirin - little blue ones with Jimmi Hendrix on them - and my headache went away and love flowed into me through beams of light coming from a giant salamander's eyes. Until you embrace the New Liberal West Coast Bible (East Coast Edition), you are just spewing Right Wing propaganda. I suppose your "Bible" is the Saint James Bible, Faux News edition? Get with the program man, and touch the love! Have you ever felt your heartbeat with the bottom of your foot? It's a gastic, fantastic trip, man! Peace out.

NavyBrat | 8.27.10 @ 10:24AM

Cartman, I'm here to tell you that I laugh my ASS off every time I read one of your posts. You're like our resident PJ O'Rourke @ AmSpec!!! Keep 'em coming bro!!!

Eric Cartman| 8.27.10 @ 11:54AM

Thank you , NavyBrat. May the peace of a thousand Birkenstocks be with you. It is with this joy that I offer you a place at the table with our Islamic friends. If you are married, please bring your wife to help serve the food. Of course, as a show of respect for our Muslim brothers, please wrap here head to toe in itchy burlap (preferably black). You may cut a couple of holes for eyes so she may see her duties in the hot, steamy kitchen but no nose holes. Nose holes are considered too sexual for public display.

You may use the New Liberal Church of the West Coast's duct tape to silence her as we both know American women may have something to say.

We will be celebrating with our Islamic friends the Feast of Baba Ganoush, thanking Allah for the jagged rocks with which they stone their woman with for displeasing the men for things like wearing lipstick. It is a great pleasure to celebrate with them and we are invite you as our new member.

As we are visitors to New York City, we do not have a church there. But the local chapter of NOW has agreed to rent us their basement for our celebration. So join us, brother! And if you need any aspirin, I have some blue ones you just have to try. Feel the love, NavyBrat. Peace out.

TR| 8.27.10 @ 3:54PM

Cartman, it took me a few days of skimming these posts to find you to be a talented satirist. You are definitely funny, and I look forward to reading your "take" on subjects. Thanks for a moment of laughter in an otherwise screwed up world.

Jeffrey| 8.30.10 @ 5:09PM

Forget the article. I'm linking this one just to get everyone to read the comments. lol.

Navy Nellies| 8.27.10 @ 2:38PM

Thank God for the Navy, as so properly honored by the Village People's song.
If all the gays left the Navy, how would the Marines get anywhere?

Kenneth E. MacAlister Jr.| 8.27.10 @ 2:33PM

I am glad I am a Christian who can recognize sarcasm when I read it, because otherwise my head would be exploding now. Thanks Eric Cartman for the laugh. I just wonder how many conservatives & Christians will be attacking your post because they don't recognize sarcasm & how many atheists will be high-fiving you for the very same reason. Take care & GOD bless!

Walter| 8.27.10 @ 2:56PM

Eric Cartman,

LMAO! Great post!

Chicago Ray| 8.27.10 @ 7:04PM

That was freakin' hilarious and likely close to what the Charles Manson branch of the Christian Left worship.

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 9:28PM

The percentage of sincere religious leftists is very low.

Johnny| 8.28.10 @ 6:21AM

I don't know Cartman, do you wake up and wonder if maybe you can still make it to Woodstock, or make it back again. I just don't see the satire. I'll just take you at your word glorifying the social gospel.

Longplay| 8.28.10 @ 9:39AM

Oh, come on now! Christ wasn't even alive when Islam started !!! (LOL - great post)

Stevia| 8.28.10 @ 5:48PM

Wew! For a minute there, you had me. What a relief...the sad thing about it, is that you are so close to the opposition's thinking. Peace Out:)

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 7:58PM

The problem is that as time goes on, satire fails to be satirical with the Left.

It's like they pull out issues of "the Onion" from five years ago and say, "Hey, that sounds like a great idea!"

Rip T.| 8.29.10 @ 8:15AM

Eric Cartman,

Please do not attempt humor--it always falls flat, man.

old white guy| 8.30.10 @ 8:56AM

you are funny.

Doctor Right| 8.27.10 @ 10:35AM

Appleby:

I have Christian friends at the Church I attend with IDENTICAL attitudes. They think Christianity = socialism, and they quote the passage from the Book of Acts about the early Christians "sharing all things in common" as proof of this mistaken assumption.

When I probed them on it, and how they as Christians could support a Candidate who supports abortion, they said "Nothing ever changes in respect to abortion", which is not only dead wrong, but it's practically a DIRECT quote from Rick Warren, whom I personally blame for "blessing" Obama, and making it OK for squishy, leftwing Christians to support him.

Appleby| 8.27.10 @ 4:21PM

The apostles were displaying lifeboat ethics when they shared all things in common. That is, because they believed Christ would come again within months, sharing all things in common was the right decision to make -- they woul not after all be needing stuff once He was back among us. As the immediate chance of His return faded, so did the sharing of everything in common.

Same thing happened during the Great Northeastern Blackout. People shared food because with the power out, it would otherwise spoil. When the power came back on, the sharing stopped.

And just as a PS: Neither God nor Jesus ever advocated practicing charity with stolen money or giving away what does not belong to you.

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 9:26PM

But you think the state can conscript young guys who aren't culpable for the errors of their elders?

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 8:10PM

There's the crux of the matter:

The Early Church shared in common, and some Christian communities do to this day. The difference is, however, that such must be a community of the _willing_. Anything else is to be held in the same esteem as the tax collectors or the pharisees who demanded tithe even for herbs.

There was also a second part to their sharing. The Christians were a persecuted group, hated on all sides. What good is storing up earthly goods if the odds of survival are low?

Lastly, there is much to say about the size of the early Christian communities. It is easier to commit all your wealth into a tight knit community of less than a hundred than to a bloated Leviathan of 300 million plus.

Stevia| 8.28.10 @ 6:05PM

Christian means "Little Christ." I don't know why you are going to a church that has such a broad definition of Christian. The Biblical meaning of one being a Christian is a change of masters. From self, as we are born serving, to Christ, who then becomes our Lord. We become a follower, a disciple at the moment of becoming a true Christian. Christ said, when asked why certain people had departed...1 John 2:19
"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us."

It is very important that we have God's definition of a Christian. In Lebanon, the definition of a Christian is someone that is not Islamic. I fear that definition has become the same meaning in the United States. The lifestyles and desires of those calling themselves Christian in the U.S. today, have nothing to do with the born-again definition that Christ had. VERY IMPORTANT!

Fredrick Ward| 8.27.10 @ 12:01PM

it's called plausible deniability. So long as you don't read what is actually there then you're not accountable for it, and remain ignorant. Therefore, you can believe whatever you think it says.

I can say one thing for these terrorists and their supporters. At least they have the nerve to stand up for what their holy book says and not dodge what they don't like. Most Christians don't have that nerve on the best of days.

LiveFreeOrDie| 8.27.10 @ 3:26PM

Yes, good job terrorists! C'mon how about three cheers for the terrorists! They're just so darn determined aren't they?

Not only are you an asshole, you're also 99.99% wrong. I'll give you 0.01% since the occasional dumb ass actually blows him/herself up. Although usually they have been bribed or threatened into doing it but no matter, I'll still give you that hundredth of one percent.

Fredrick Ward| 8.27.10 @ 5:14PM

I didn't say I was cheering for them. All I said was that at least they actually stand up for what their book says. If that makes me an asshole to point out the fact then so be it. Secondly, human bombs are but a small percentage of actual terrorism, and support thereof. It may also be said that since you have no real numbers that your just commenting out of repressed anger. There are councellors for that kind of thing. Seek one out before you hurt yourself with the toys you play with.

LiveFreeOrDie| 8.27.10 @ 6:01PM

So you know and associate with a lot of terrorists? Enough to make broad generalizations about their character? You're just....wrong.

Fredrick Ward| 8.27.10 @ 6:24PM

Maybe you should read their book before you make responses that further your ignorance of the issue at hand. It is always best to educate yourself before commenting on a subject. It is freely available on the web. Therefore, you don't even need to spend money.

LiveFreeOrDie| 8.30.10 @ 12:07PM

YOU go read a book moron. Reading "their book" doesn't have anything to do with the broad generalization you have made about terrorists. You're still WRONG. I've read accounts of terrorists and how they ignored the tenets of their so-called religion when operating in a foreign (enemy) country. Get a clue, the terrorists are tools, like you. They drop their "religion" first strip club they pass.

P.S. Only a non-believer would call their book holy. Your birka is showing.

Fredrick Ward| 8.31.10 @ 12:15AM

It's called the doctrine of al-taqiyya which allows them to lie about their beliefs and blend in. Once again you're the picture of the uneducated showing their ignorance.

Laura| 8.31.10 @ 9:08AM

I have read the Koran, which is far from a "holy" book. I don't think that any argument can be made that Islam is in fact a religion. Say what you will, Muhammed wrote the book and he was completely preoccupied with earthly things, especially power, not with any spiritual pursuit. I have known many Muslims up close and personal. There is no honor among them, as your reference to taqiyya would reveal to a rational mind. How is it that you give Muslims a pass for violating the tenets of their creed, yet you call Christians hypocrites? It is an inconsistency among leftward thinkers that sees Muslims, or anyone opposed to Christ, as righteous. Be careful who you call uneducated - you are revealing your own lack of understanding and a proclivity for evil. The heart of Christianity is charity, love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you. This is a high ideal and a difficult path. Few can attain perfection, but it is in the struggle that souls prove their mettle.

Fredrick Ward| 8.31.10 @ 11:02AM

Laura,

You misunderstand. I do not give them a pass for what they do. I hold each person accountable as I would myself. The fact that they even have a doctrine that supports their abhorrent behavior is proof enough that it is a matter of social convenience and tyranny that truly reigns the hearts of the Muslim world. I work for two Muslims, I have known many in the past as well, and I must say that I do not trust any of them. I have had this discernment of the heart long before Sept 11, 2001 ocurred. It is due to their tyrannical belief system, which actually is a form of social government, that I do not trust them. Anyone who can legitimize such behavior should be held closely, and watched even closer. Remember the saying, "Keep your friends close, and your enemies even closer still."

Christians by and large in this country have made their religion about Sunday only. It is a matter of social networking, good business, and dropping the kids off to functions so that Mom and Dad may have a few hours to themselves. The sincerity of the heart and soul is missing, and therefore the actual relationship with the God they espouse to follow becomes a hollow call. Such can be seen where ministers like Rev. Jeremiah Wright loses focus on the fact that he is supposed to be shepherding his flock for the glory of God rather than preaching hate, and causing further issues than he is solving. The same can be be seen in so many churches in this country these days. Where has the minister gone that pined in prayer for his people in the early hours? Where have the Christians gone that truly care for those who are lost? There is far less outreach going on than there are politically minded speeches being spouted off at the pulpits, and somehow I have issue with that. Politics should be second, or even third, on the scale of importance for the church.

I do not feel that all churches and Christians are like I have described, but there are too many. Roughly 80% of this country espouse to be followers of Jesus Christ. Do you see the fruits of such in this country to legitimize such a claim? I don't.

LiveFreeOrDie| 8.31.10 @ 12:40PM

Your original post basically said they stand up for their beliefs more than Christians. I cited their immorality, which you said is allowed according to their unholy book. Big deal they follow unholy writings that says they can do whatever they want...such dedication. That's my main disagreement and I think we probably agree more than we don't when it comes to this topic so have a good day.

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 3:32PM

Perhaps if American churches weren't so dissembling, more would join them?

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 4:50PM

Iran is the key, not this silly alaraum about Ground Zero.
Even if-- which appears to be the case-- Ahmadinejad is bluffing, he will end up carrying the bluff too far, which means no turning back for his regime's position of starting the very apocalyptic holy war the jihadisys want most-- they feel they have nothing to lose.
We safe in the West see the Mideast as a game, something on the screen; even when we visit the Mideast we know we can be evacuated-- however to the residents there it is no game; it is not something on CNN, but rather it is life or death.

The Ground Zero flap is merely something to sell newspapers with.

rotorhead1871| 8.30.10 @ 11:41PM

well.....its hard to make this point with the faithful, but why would you believe ANY of this??? it was all writtten by ooogggaaabooogaa controllers who knew nothing of the real world but were masters of control of the lemmings...please take responsibility for your life...100%....

martin j smith| 8.27.10 @ 7:51AM

The notion of "religious and "left" together as in Religious Left seem oxymoronic to me. Sort of like the Nazi Christian Church ( and there was such a thing under our friend Hitler ) or any church in Societ Russia under Stalin. Those Churches that are Left leaning take on the Left agenda including devesting from Israel. What I find ironic is the Left in Jewish circles--the Jewish religious Left can even indirectly associate with the Anti-Israel Religious left. but then again their commonality is actually anti-Zionism and really anti-Semitic. Why ? Because once you undermine the Jewish State you undermine the state of the Jewish world. Thus, the support of radical Muslims for the GZ Mosque makes perfect sense if you follow their warped form of reasoning.

Richard| 8.27.10 @ 11:54AM

Because they are Left first and Christian last--way last.

Joanna | 8.27.10 @ 2:37PM

Amen. Not sure what Bible they read, at all, but I'm guessing that, if they DO read it, they do so with a scrabble board close by, in order to be able to play effective word games. Once they've created new text, they feel excused and pass their home-made theology to friends of the cause.

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 9:34PM

Even if there is another attack, it wouldn't wipe us out; but the Mideast CAN be wiped-- it probably wont, but there's fair chance it will.
Which is why SBC eschatology isn't as apocalyptic as one might think.

BackToBasics| 8.27.10 @ 6:55PM

I will repeat this for the "tolerant" religious left -

Non-Muslims are NOT ALLOWED to visit Mecca!!!!

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 9:36PM

Why would they want to?

BackToBasics| 8.28.10 @ 12:21AM

Why do some Moslems want to build a mosque at Ground Zero?

The left totally misses the point of what this mosque is all about. The tolerance they show towards the Imams and leaders in this mosque will not be reciprocated. It will be another point-of-conquest for them. Hence my point above.

rotorhead1871| 8.30.10 @ 11:45PM

why would you want to go....the shopping? the view?? its for Islams, let them have their toy.

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 8:21PM

When one becomes a liberal Christian, liberal Jew, liberal Buddhist or whatever is under the sun, you must forget the normal method of English grammar (adjective followed by noun).

They are liberals entirely, with Christian, Jew, Buddhist, etc. as window dressing. Of course they are offended when you say "Godless heathen with a pinch of Gospel". I ask what is next from them, temple prostitutes?

Stammon| 8.27.10 @ 8:11AM

The left defines itself by not being right. There is no left without right. That sounds obvious, except the right exists outside of itself, as a stand alone entity an idea of self preservation, conservatism, and caution in the face of a hostile and uncertain world. The left exists primarily as a retort against the excesses of the right, a f-u mommy-daddy statement, and a hedonistic push against the confines of a moral life.

If you keep this in mind, a lot of what they do becomes as obvious as a child's tantrum.

Richard| 8.27.10 @ 11:57AM

There is a lot to be said for your thesis. Modern art, for example, is just a mob of dirty words in daddy's face.

Appleby| 8.27.10 @ 4:23PM

Much as Canada is defined mainly as Not The USA. If America disappeared, so would Canada.

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 8:33PM

You are correct in much of what you say. Liberalism is inherently incoherent. It demands everyone must be absolutely equal, and yet likewise absolutely free. As such they must by tyrants to handicap any who excel and subsidize any who fail, yet at the same time they must be anarchists allowed to do anything they please.

The only thing holding them back is a political balance by the conservative.

The problem with that, however, is that the large majority of conservatives are not intrinsically conservative. Most are simply comfortable with the liberalism they were exposed to in their youth.

Doctor Right| 8.27.10 @ 8:26AM

The Left will always choose to support any anti-American cause they can find.

They can't help it.

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 8:40PM

That is because America is (if only by repute) a wealthy nation. Liberals by nature abhor excellence in all forms, as absolutely everyone must be equal in their eyes.

So once the U.S. is totally crippled and beyond hope, then they can earnestly mutate into the next form of liberalism: fascism.

The only change they will have to make is determining who is the scapegoat. We see this in China today...

Ryan| 8.27.10 @ 8:32AM

Again, no mention of the Gospel from the "mainstream" left churches in this matter.

NavyBrat | 8.27.10 @ 8:42AM

Hmmm. Why are so many people opposed to this abomination so close to where so many people were murdered in the name of Allah? Is it because not only does the imam who wants to build it there support Hamas & Iran & hates Israel, but maybe he also supports things like honor killings? They are already taking place in this country. Thankfully, for now, most of the perpetrators of this barbaric practice are subject to the full weight of the law, like any other scumbag. But if we allow Sharia courts to be utilized, what in the hell would happen THEN? Said scumbags would get to say that they bludgeoned their wives or daughters to death because it was "Allah's will." And they'd walk.

Here's a couple articles on honor killings in the US. I wonder if those "tolerant" idiots on the religious left care about stuff like this:

http://www.boston.com/bostongl.....to_the_us/

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dp.....n_the_rise

Its already here folks.

JFGalt| 8.27.10 @ 9:01AM

They only see what they want to see especially when it lines their pockets.

NavyBrat | 8.27.10 @ 9:24AM

Sad, but true my friend.

Fredrick Ward| 8.27.10 @ 1:04PM

Here is what these leftists are supporting. Congratulations Obama, and all you liberal 'freedom' lovers. Here is the diversity you support so loudly. Feel proud of yourselves.

http://go2.wordpress.com/?id=7.....d-in-iraq/

joli| 8.27.10 @ 6:29PM

The video quality was bad, for which I am grateful. I could tell that they were murdering someone, but I couldn't tell if it was a man or woman.

LadyGun12| 8.28.10 @ 7:25PM

It was a little girl who was murdered because she didn't want to marry the man her parents set her up with.

Vic| 8.29.10 @ 8:56PM

Kind of makes you proud to be a bigot toward these animals doesn't it.

Paul in Colorado| 8.27.10 @ 2:02PM

As you know, in London and Paris there are muslim enclaves where the police dare not go, and English and French law no longer pertains. The question is whether America will allow such enclaves to be established here, and whether we will turn our backs while muslim men brutalize muslim women on American soil. So far they're having to face the music, and maybe the message will sink in that restoring the family honor in America can put you on death row, and your fellow misogynists will not be able to save you.

One other point - we hear a lot about hate crimes, as though what one was thinking while committing a crime is more important than what one was doing. In this case, though, I think it may be appropriate. Telling the court that you murdered your daughter because it was Allah's will that she should die for being disobedient ought to be a fast track to the gas chamber.

Radegunda| 8.27.10 @ 4:03PM

This is one thing I point out whenever someone says, "But most Muslims are not terrorists/ not hostile." Well, if "most" are "not hostile," somehow they allow the hostile ones among them to define the shape of their communities.

The tragic trends in Europe should make it abundantly clear that it's substantial numbers of Muslims per se that cause trouble for Western democracies. Some people might say, "Oh, but that's because Europe hasn't done so well at integrating its Muslims. Here in America, they're just like the rest of us."

But European governments are making all kinds of accommodations for their Muslim minorities, and it hasn't resulted in overwhelming gratitude. Au contraire. Likewise, the trend line here also indicates that greater numbers of Muslims and more accommodation of Muslim demands results in a more demanding and troublesome Muslim population. They don't have to be blowing up things to cause trouble, either. With Muslims, there's always the threat that violence will be considered justified if their demands are not met.

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 9:40PM

"The question is whether America will allow such enclaves to be established here."

No, we are much farther away from the action so we can resist more. The Mideast isn't very far from the Balkans,

Europe is faced with prisoners' dilemma.

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 8:43PM

There are a few such places in Michigan.

Duane | 8.27.10 @ 8:47AM

http://groundzeromosquetheamer.....gspot.com/

JFGalt| 8.27.10 @ 8:59AM

Imagine trying to build a christian church in Mecca in the name of peace. What would the world's muslims say? Americans are not stupid - they see the symbolism of this mosque besides given the antagonism engendered by this mosque why force the issue knowing how many people are offended by it? This site was chosen to make a particular point - that is the only logical reason.

Stephanie| 8.27.10 @ 10:41AM

And the developer, a waiter until a year ago, bought the building with cash and refuses to tell reporters where he got the cash. He refuses to say anything. Smells bad.

Richard| 8.27.10 @ 11:59AM

Saudi Arabia (rich Saudis anyway) has financed the building of mosques throughout Africa where there are few Muslims and where the mosques are very lightly attended.

RCV| 8.27.10 @ 12:02PM

Trying to turn our country into a Christian version of Saudi Arabia isn't my idea of the ideal society.

The One We've Been Waiting For| 8.27.10 @ 1:03PM

We're buying shrimp, RCV. Trying to equivalence Christianity and Islam isn't selling very well. Be calm, you'll soon be able to marry your boyfriend. We'll get nowhere if we only have 20% of the country supporting us. Really you need to realize how extreme you are. Rahm explained it to me and I have decided to be on permanent vacation. Well I must be off. Golf calls.

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 9:43PM

"Trying to equivalence Christianity and Islam isn't selling very well."

As long as you stay away from Southern Baptists, and all fundies.

Vic| 8.29.10 @ 9:03PM

Please show us the video of southern Baptist bashing a girls head in with concrete blocks. Inquiring minds want to know!

Ryan| 8.30.10 @ 8:39AM

Wow...that's an absolutely amazing mischaracterization.

Radegunda| 8.27.10 @ 4:06PM

When we start forcing schoolgirls to burn to death rather than go out in public without their shrouds, you can find a better country to move to.

BackToBasics| 8.27.10 @ 6:51PM

Non-Muslims are not even allowed to visit Mecca.

It is considered that we would contaminate the holy ground (don't they have wind in Mecca?) Maybe some of the holy ground has blown over here and a spec of it might even be on my computer.

Alan Brooks| 8.27.10 @ 9:47PM

I know a Christian professor (just google "Frederick Denny, Saudi Arabia") who went to Mecca.
The problem isn't visiting anywhere in Islamic territory- it's getting out, and back home, in one piece.

BackToBasics| 8.28.10 @ 12:47AM

I searched it and saw a couple basics such as he was born in Saudi Arabia. If he is not a Moslem then perhaps he got in with a lot of help or clandestinely. But it still does not negate my point that Non-Muslims are not allowed in Mecca. Nor does it negate my point that those on the left support the ground-zero mosque out of naivete and ignorance of Islam and I also think much of the left's motivation for support of this comes out of fear of Islam.

martin j smith| 8.27.10 @ 10:03AM

NavyBrat,Islam as practicved by the GZMosque developers is an authoritarian system and as in the case of the Left in West fits neatly into the hate America and Hate Israel and hate Freedom-at least as we know it. That is why at the very least it is important that people write,e-mail or phone any Congress or Senate criters or other people of relevance to express opposition to the GZ MOSQUE. My first reaction was the idea was more than immoral it was amoral.
Reason: total insult to those who suffered from 9/11. Both dead and alive. Now that I have seen Imam Rauf and Daisy Khan plus the great Mayor Bloomberg in action I also oppose the GZ MOSQUE as Un-American( and Ant-American ) because ists founders or instigators and their supporter in chief ( that would be oObama and Bloomberg ) are themselves amoral and currupted to a degree that I see both of them doing better in another country. Not this one.

NavyBrat | 8.27.10 @ 10:27AM

Yeah. Maybe we can send Bloombooger to Saudi. I'll bet they'd LOVE his Jewish tuchus over there! Obama would just bow to the King again & he'd fit right in.

RCV| 8.27.10 @ 12:03PM

At least he didn't kiss, hold hands and snuggle with them like GWB was so fond of doing.

The One We've Been Waiting For| 8.27.10 @ 12:56PM

We're buying shrimp, RCV. It came out this morning. No more talking about Bush in the context of the One. He is more popular than I am. You are allowed only to talk about Pelosi, Reid, the ACLU, Stalin, Hitler and Genghis Khan. They all poll lower than me. Be ready to add Khan to the no-talk list. Remember you can always end up next to Grandma in the typical white person section under the bus. Well I need to get off to a tee time. TTFN

NavyBrat | 8.27.10 @ 1:20PM

Yeah. And I'm sure Bush would've given his tacit endorsement of this appalling monstrosity too. Why don't you go hug a suicide bomber?

Radegunda| 8.27.10 @ 4:11PM

Holding hands is a sign of equality. Bowing is a sign of submission.

I won't defend GWB's relationship with the Saudis or his naivete re: Islam. But how does that excuse Obowma's groveling approach to the Ummah? How does it excuse his use of NASA to send technology to the Ummah -- while he simultaneously blathers about how brilliantly inventive Islamic civilization is?

Your argument sounds a lot like "because Bush signed onto spending increases, you can't criticize Obama for demanding vastly higher rates of spending and creating a much larger deficit."

It's a really pathetic argument.

Tim*| 8.27.10 @ 8:09PM

Nor did he kneel down and kiss Obama's Rump like RCV LawBoy does everyday.

RCV| 8.27.10 @ 11:49PM

And all this time I thought that was you I was kissing', Timmie!

Doesn't Middle school start up again soon?

Tim*| 8.28.10 @ 6:49PM

RCV wants to know , so he can drive up and offer them candy to get in .

cpl mkw| 10.5.10 @ 1:22PM

Opposition/support to the mosque should continue in the free exchange of ideas that the 1st amendment allows. What should not occur, is our government disallowing a relgious institution from being built in violation of the establishment clause due to emotion. The FBI/NSA should keep tabs on where the money funding the project is coming from and will not doubt place agents within the walls of the Cordoba Center to gauge and interpret the militancy of their internal mission/message.
This country was founded on religious freedom and the establishment of religion should be the same for a Muslim as it is for a Christian. That is the beauty of America. Comparing the USA and its laws to Mecca and other middle eastern countries is not apt. It's akin to comparing a university to a prison.

Steve A| 8.27.10 @ 10:03AM

"Religion" as defined by Progressives: " A tool to be used, when needed, to further promote liberalism." Separation of Church & State bogus arguments. Mosque issue. Clinton calling in Jesse Jackson to help pray after he gets caught giving Monica cigars in the oval office etc. My favorite is the "what would Jesus drive?" argument. Well, let's see.....he had 12 disciples to haul around so it sure ain't gonna be a Chevy Volt there Einstein.

Nate W.| 8.27.10 @ 10:30AM

It's obvious; Jesus and his disciples "were in one Accord". *chuckle*

Stephanie| 8.27.10 @ 10:44AM

Well, three quarters of them would fit in my suburban!
Anybody know when Bloombergs term as mayor is up? He needs to be escorted out of NYC.

Anthony| 8.27.10 @ 3:31PM

This little drip of a mayor bought off the NY city council and had them recind the 2 term limit ordinance.
Seems the midget mayor convienced himself that NYC could not survive without him at the helm, yet of course, Rudy was expendable.
Can't wait for the Wahabbi's to cut off his little head at the G.Z. mosque when Sharia is imposed.

DRed| 8.27.10 @ 10:45AM

Mr. Tooley,

I've been unable to find any evidence suggesting that the Cordoba house was 'fast tracked' to open on September 11, 2010. Can you point me to some?

Kristiane | 8.27.10 @ 10:54AM

"How fascinating that the U.S. Religious Left, usually so indifferent to religious liberty when relating to churches, at home, or abroad, has zealously embraced the Ground Zero mosque controversy as a Manichaean struggle between freedom and bigotry."

At first glance I thought it a mistake to associate religious with left as you did...but, actually, everyone has a religion - what they believe and follow - but not everyone worships God. I am not surprised that the Left - religious or other-wise- would support the mosque being built in NY near ground zero. The site and the city and the nation have no intrinsic meaning for them. It is just a place where they work, play and eat. People who lost their lives there matters not to them unless their lives and course of pleasure have been disrupted by their deaths . I am reminded of their protests against our recent wars "now I won't be able to travel to Europe or elsewhere because they hate us". Actually they care less about the us and more about the "me". While reading the article and the comments that followed, I was reminded of the words spoken by a pastor who went to NY ground zero ASAP to pray with those hurting and to comfort those who worked tirelessly while seeking the bodies buried in the rubble. The comment that stands out in my mind out of everything he said was what he heard from the firemen coming out of the smoking ruins "I now believe that evil exists and I have seen its face up close and personal" and this pastor mentioned that had they said nothing with their mouth, their faces reflected the horror of what their heart saw.

Donovan | 8.27.10 @ 10:58AM

A very enlightening article. We must truly understand radical Islam and Sharia law to know what the Western world is up against. For a very interesting take on the radical ideas of the sponsors of the Ground Zero Mosque, I recommend people go to http://americasculturalstudies.....o-mosque/. Your eyes will be opened.

Virtus| 8.27.10 @ 11:13AM

It is quite ironic that Rev. Kinnamon calls his endorsement of the mosque a gesture of "neighborliness and healing." What are we then to think of his silence on supporting the rebuilding of St. Nicholas Church? This church was destroyed by the attacks, and their efforts to rebuild have been besieged by bureaucratic obstacles for almost a decade. Where is the neighborliness for a Church that has been there since 1916? Don't the Christians who support St. Nicholas also deserve to heal? After all, they were injured as a result of the attacks.

Why are the rights and opinions of the mosque supporters more important than those of the supporters of St. Nicholas? Supporting the new mosque while neglecting the rebuilding of a previously existing Christian church does not promote religious tolerance-- it undermines it.

Rev. Kinnamon's neglect is especially sad because Fr. Mark Arey-of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, who has really been the public face of St. Nicholas' struggle- is also on the Governing Board of the NCC.

Anthony| 8.27.10 @ 3:56PM

Rev. Kinnamon's logic is so perverse it renders one speechless. If the goal of the mosque is to bring about "neighborliness and healing", does this fool not comprehend that the presence of the mosque at G.Z. accomplishs the exact opposite?
Under Kinnamon's logic, the building of a Jewish temple in the occupied territory should have the same ameliorating effect with Hamas?
It seems to me that a true gesture of "neighborliness and healing" would be for this Imam to erect a monument to the victims of this attack at G.Z., rather than a house of worship that is associated with this horror that was done in the name of Islam. Like it or not, that is a FACT.
But of course that is not what is going on here. The goal is clear, the aim true, and with Useful Idiots such as the good Rev. Kinnamon and Mayor Bloomberg, Sharia law will soon be planted here in America, just like the mosque.

Steve A| 8.27.10 @ 11:15AM

DRed, You mean 09/11/11 I believe. Good point though. Would it not be be nice if the loveable little Imam & his financial backers would come on out & clarify some of these questions for us?? Funding sources?? Quest to open 09/11/11?? Sharia Law?? Hamas, terrorists or no?? OH, my apologies if I have offended our fuzzy little Imam & his pals by asking these mean spirited questions....

DRed| 8.27.10 @ 12:07PM

As far as I know, they don't have any funding yet. Which is another reason that it's ridiculous to claim that the building is being 'fast tracked'.

Bydand76| 8.27.10 @ 1:56PM

DRed

And it is just as ridiculous that "they" refuse to reveal where that funding might be coming from. I don't understand the stonewalling on their part OR why this is such a sticking issue with the proponents of this mosque.

Also, why does it have to be at this location? Why the refusal to move it? Last poll that came yesterday had 63% on New Yorkers opposing the Mosque being built there. Why not move it and be done with the whole problem? Every single person I have heard steadfastly refuses to say that Hamas is a terrorist organization (which I find to be very suspicious to say the least), yet we have pundits who are refusing to ask why this might be. What gives?

BUT, as far as I know, I dont think it would be Saudia Arabia doing the funding since they are Sunni Muslims and the developers of this Mosque are Shi'a (as far as I know or have heard).

Sunni's consider Shite's heretic and vice-versa and I dont think they fund or interact with each other very much.

Just some thoughts.

Pro Libertate!

DRed| 8.27.10 @ 2:23PM

How can you reveal that which doesn't exist?

I think the Imam is a Sufi muslim. I won't defend his religious views-I think they're nonsense. But I think it's clear he's not a jihadi fundamentalist.

Bydand76| 8.27.10 @ 2:59PM

I would agree with you that he perhaps is not a terrorist in the truest sense of the word, but I would say that I am suspicious of his motives.

If, the planners of this project have plans to build this Mosque then they most certainly have financial backing. Why would they go to all this trouble in the first place.

Pro Libertate!

DRed| 8.27.10 @ 3:52PM

Well, I assume they think they can raise the money. The controversy sure isn't going to hurt in that respect.

Radegunda| 8.27.10 @ 4:24PM

It's clear that he views the Khomeinist revolution favorably. Is that not fundamentalist enough for you?

Its harder to say with certainty what he is not, because of the well-known Islamic use of deceit to advance to power of Islam.

dac| 8.27.10 @ 11:21AM

Folks it's pretty simple, these leftist "Christians" are first and foremost members of the Comintern. Their allegiance to international socialism trumps any faux-religious convictions behind which they attempt to hide. It is anti-American and anti-Christian fraud on a massive, destructive scale, and frankly I'm surprised they have been so transparent on this GZ Victory Memorial Mosque issue. It's so glaringly obvious that the international left will do and support anything and everything that foments multiple terrorist beachheads in America--we negotiate with these jackals at our peril. When the planes crashed down the WTCs I thought at the time, ok, it's pretty simple, either they kill our children or we kill theirs. Nothing has changed, it's just that some "Christians" and some "Americans" have chosen to side with those who want to kill us. Fortunately most Americans and most Christians disagree and are well-armed enough to enforce that disagreement.

John II| 8.27.10 @ 11:36AM

Nice piece, Mr. Tooley, and thanks. The so-called religious left, notwithstanding the contradiction in terms, is the exemplar of what Arthur Koestler called, more aptly, "left Babbittry."

Writing in the 1950s, Koestler was thinking of the warm fuzzies felt toward Soviet and Chinese communism by a certain strain of comfortable western liberals. He also called it "soft nihilism."

There is no doubt in my mind, in retrospect, that the Reagan presidency was one of a handful of necessary conditions for the collapse of the Soviet Union, but there was also a big chunk of serendipity or luck or Providence in the conspicuously uncelebrated triumph of the West in the Cold War.

If anything, the West's soft nihilism alluded to by Koestler two generations ago is more pervasive today, on particularly garish display in the prim enthusiasms of the left Babbitts in the churches.

The Mosque issue is important enough on its own merits, but also hugely symbolic in a way that such events occasionally are. To me (and apparently to many thousands of others), the issue symbolizes the principal crisis of the West today. The big question for the 21st century, I think, is whether the soft nihilism of the West can stand up to the hard nihilism of Islamic jihad.

Vinny| 8.27.10 @ 12:24PM

Look, the left obviously wants this built at all cost and according to them the only real hold up is the racist attitudes of the right.

I propose a solution, Let them build the mosque but a caveat must be attached to the affect that if a terrorist attack against the city or country was found to have been originated from within its walls, then the name must immediately be changed to the Obama-Bloomberg Mosque for all to see and remember where the support for its building came from and because of that support the blood and death spilled is on their hands forever.

Walkthetalk| 8.27.10 @ 12:34PM

The religious left rejects actually the real God, and the dreaded concept of sin. Sin is simply choosing to turn away from God, while repenting is turning back to him. But by turning away from the Light of Life the religious Left is left in spiritual darkness to worship Gaia, Sophia, or whatever. The characteristics manifested by those choosing spiritual darkness is the glorification of death (think abortion, and embracing terrorists), the support of scofflaws (like themselves, think illegal aliens), perpetual lying (Pelosi and gang), affinity for godless systems (think Communism, and Obama’s favorite Leninism – rule by the inexperienced elite), exhibiting fear (especially of the Christian Right, who have spiritual light in themselves that shines out and reveals the sin of and sins of the Left), plus other perversions. To justify themselves (convince themselves they actually have life) they must suppress the light. Thus they must dominate, degrade, control, and rule over those who are not spiritual zombies like themselves. They strive to utilize institutions, unions, organizations, and even churches to accomplish this. The Right must stand firm, and not give the Left anything. They want us dead (like them) and we want them alive (like us). This is why they call for our heads and we call for them to repent. If you feel inadequate to confront them with the light of truth read www.christforamericans.com There you will get more truth than you will ever get from all the truth-compromised churches in the U.S.A.

DRed| 8.27.10 @ 12:49PM

Leninist? If Obama was a Leninist, most of the posters on this site would have been shot by now. Lenin was a monster.

Jeremiah| 8.27.10 @ 1:10PM

Oh, give him time, DRed. Already if you're a white voter and a New Black Panther denies you your voting rights, that's okay in Obamaworld. If you're a whole state and you want to crack down to stop the murder and violence visited on you by foreign drug lords, well Obama isn't going to have any of that. Mr. Obama has always shown a totalitarian instinct. You better fear the Executive Orders and extraconstitutional powers he is going to start asserting to try to thwart a Republican Congress. The election of a Republican Congress may be both the beginning of our deliverance from governance against the will of the people and the opening act of a Constitutional crisis. Obama and his people seem to have as much contempt for the Constitution as for the people.

Steve A| 8.27.10 @ 1:23PM

Yeah, Lenin was pretty bad. Especially when he stayed in bed with Yoko for a week at a time.....Or was that the other Lennon??? How did that song go?? "Imagine no posessions, I wonder if you can. Barak to guide us, and no economy too."

John II| 8.27.10 @ 1:40PM

In addition to which, DReddie, the expression used by Walkie is "Obama's favorite Leninism," which Walkie specifies. In other words, the term "Leninism" is being used as a singular count-noun rather than an abstract mass-noun.

My own favorite Leninism was the colossally cynical expression "useful idiots," which Professor Ulyanov himself coined to refer to the kinds of smug dimwits discussed in Mr. Tooley's piece. I shouldn't be surprised if Professor Obama uses similar language to describe some of his most ardent supporters; if he does, you would thus have another example of an "Obama Leninism."

DRed| 8.27.10 @ 4:00PM

Jeremiah, I wouldn't put too much faith in a Republican congress to limit any executive tyranny. They certainly showed no hesitation granting such powers to Bush the younger. All an executive has to do is yell 'terrorist' and it seems the electorate will gladly cede them any powers they want.

Radegunda| 8.27.10 @ 4:31PM

Yeah, that Bush actually wanted to monitor conversations with terrorist suspects abroad! The nerve! And, he thought that public library records were not actually private. Horrors!

Even Dianne Feinstein said she know of NO rights abuses as a consequence of the Patriot Act.

And the leftists who found those measures just to horrible to contemplate were the same people screeching that Bush should have known 9/11 was coming and could have stopped it. Leftists do everything they can to hamstring national security measures--and scream like stuck pigs when plots are not disrupted.

So you tell us how to stop terror plots, smartypants.

DRed| 8.27.10 @ 5:11PM

I wasn't talking about monitoring terrorists abroad. Look, with Bush, we had the executive asserting it could arrest anyone, indefinitely, in secret, without any judicial review. Now we have Obama claiming he can (again in secret) have American citizens assassinated if he asserts they're a terrorist. It's a slippery slope.

Anthony| 8.27.10 @ 1:25PM

If these people on the Christian Left are to be taken at their word, and this is not some nefarious anti- American, anti Western movement, then truly, Leftism is a mental disorder.
The sophomoric bromides offered up to defend the placement of this mosque at this particular location defies any rational process. This is a leftist temper tantrum of the first order.
I find it hard to fathom that these folks actually believe their own tripe, rather, I truly believe their self loathing hate is aimed at America and Western civilization,hence, throwing these misguided fools into the arms of their Muslim conquerors.
Once again, history repeats itself. Mr. Chamberlain, please call home.

SF_Exile| 8.27.10 @ 2:05PM

As an extension of the idea that you can't have the Left without the Right, these folks are actually so Left they're Right. They’ve come full circle in their acceptance of totalitarianism. It’s not so much about embracing the Muslim religion as much as it is the full-on rejection of all that Western civilization is.

I am in the middle of reading Pascal Bruckner's "The Tyranny of Guilt (An Essay on Western Masochism)" at the moment and it is fascinating. Please, go to your local libraries and find it. Mr. Bruckner, a Frenchman, is writing for the European reader and thus places the focus on European matters and attitudes. However, because Europe and America are siblings, he does point out where America fails in many of the same ways. But, he is also quick to point out the ways in which America excels, much to Europe’s chagrin. It is a clear-eyed assessment of the current malaise (since 1945) which infects Europe and threatens to engulf America. He draws a full picture of the development of the ‘culture of victimhood’ thriving presently in the West, and how its rise is giving way to the re-emergence of blatant racism. And although he paints a bleak picture he seems optimistic that the current trends could be reversed provided the West recognizes and shakes off its stifling (and morale –sapping) guilt complex to focus instead on those qualities that are our greatest strengths and achievements.
It is just this cult of perpetual guilt which is propelling the GZ Mosque debacle and informs much of the Left's current philosophy. Not to mention a healthy dollop of standard Intelligensia condescension.

ahem| 8.27.10 @ 2:05PM

To see an eye-opening expose on exactly how the Left took over half the American Catholic church, see Michael Voris' 5-part lecture on youtube, about how Saul Alinsky targeted the Church. It's very well-documented:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v.....re=related

ahem| 8.27.10 @ 2:06PM

Pardon me. This is a better URL:

http://tinyurl.com/23qrsvh

rhurt| 8.27.10 @ 2:27PM

One needs to read the websites that keep track of the numerous Muslim attacks upon Christians that are not attributed to Muslim Main Terrorist groups. Example=www.compassdirect.org. Then one needs to realize that the Koran specifically refers to the destruction of non-believers, with all of these facts going on in the world-both Terrorist and regular Muslims are proving that there is the killing of Christians in every Muslim dominated country. This is definitely not the religion of peace-just a piece of you-convert to Islam or perish. They also kill their own women and children-they call it honor killings-Americans call it DIS-HONOR MURDER!

rhurt| 8.27.10 @ 2:35PM

This person-Kinnanman needs to read what the settlers said about what was the normal war for the Native America Indians, and the killing of their own and of other tribes. The Settlers stopped the hundreds of years of killing for the glory of war. Yes there were alot of misstakes by not so perfect men, but the world was alot worse or as bad. It took the US a couple of centuries and then they almost got things right-it took another 100 years to complete what the Democrats had been doing to block from happening-the final destruction of Slavery. A message the Muslims didn't get until maybe this century.

Jesus| 8.27.10 @ 2:43PM

If thy right hand offends thee cut it off, if thy right eye offends thee, pluck it out, the rich have had their reward (left or right), the widows mite, etc.
Now get on the floor, and rooooooolllll your sins out that door!

martin j smith| 8.27.10 @ 3:26PM

Most Americans know nothing about the underlying concepts that underlie bot the religious Left and radical islam. But it would be helpful if they had exposure to Saul Alinsky's " Rules for Radicals" showing how the cpets of this book are governing the behavior of the Democrat Socialist Party. That is their bible.

Gretchen| 8.27.10 @ 3:57PM

I have a quibble about the statement that "there are no Christian theocracies in the world." What would you call the Vatican State?

Redstateboy| 8.27.10 @ 4:22PM

Think of it... the Party of Slavery - the Democrat Party - supports infanticide (partial birth abortion), Gay Marriage, taking from those who work and earn to bestow it on its useless syncophants.. Are they not the party of evil?

Larry| 8.27.10 @ 4:26PM

"Avid, guilt-ridden multiculturalists, with their highly selective historical recalls, never quite explain how all the chauvinistic imperialists who founded the United States somehow inadvertently created the world's most extravagantly tolerant multicultural democracy." The answer is simple. After the victories were over, they recognized the wrongs, slavery, genocide etc. and returned to the values and freedoms guaranteed in the constitution.
This whole ridiculous and illogical essay fails to answer the question, "Do all Americans of all faiths have a right to build their house of worship wherever they wish (providing it meets local laws and regulations)?"
It's a simple yes or no question and can be answered without the need for all this drivel. The citizens of New York have said yes. Who the hell are these people who tell them no?
If you don't like it, change the constitution or move to Saudi Arabia.

Radegunda| 8.27.10 @ 4:55PM

Actually, a large majority of the citizens of New York have said no. But leftists don't care what "the people" actually want.

John II| 8.27.10 @ 5:05PM

"Do all Americans of all faiths have a right to build their house of worship wherever they wish (providing it meets local laws and regulations)?"

That point has already been covered, several times, Larry. Answer: Legally, yes; morally, no.

But in your universe, moral arguments--the kind on which legal arguments depend for their ultimate cogency--appear to be ipso facto "ridiculous and illogical."

And now back to "The Three Stooges." (You're no relation to the late, great Larry Fine, are you?)

Larry| 8.27.10 @ 5:39PM

So legally they have the right to build, but not morally?
Sounds like you are living in the wrong country. This is a country of laws, many of which have a sound moral basis. If we believe they do not, we change the laws.
How would you change the laws in your universe?
And by the way John II, don't be so arrogant to assume you know anything about my universe.

John II| 8.27.10 @ 6:53PM

"And by the way John II, don't be so arrogant to assume you know anything about my universe."

I said "appear," which is not the language of assumption but of speculation. You shouldn't be so arrogant as to assume that I'm arrogant. In fact, I'm so modest that even my dog doesn't respect me.

Neo-Nazis don't have the moral right to march in a Jewish neighborhood, although the ACLU infamously defended their legal right to do so. But you've already suggested by your sophomoric rant that you're not interested in moral argument, which proceeds more by nuance, allusion, and analogical reference than by schoolboy logic.

And now back to the 1935 version of "Mutiny on the Bounty." If there's an amateur production of that play near you, you might perhaps want to audition for the role of Captain Bligh.

Larry| 8.28.10 @ 2:39AM

Neo-Nazis don't have a "moral right", but as you said the courts of the United States said that they have a legal right.
Now tell me John, what do ne0-Nazi's have to do with American Muslims and their right to build three blocks away from the site of a terrorist act?
Do you even believe in freedom of religion? Or is it just freedom for your religion?
Is your argument so devoid of facts that you have to resort to "nuance, allusion and analogical reference" rather than "schoolboy logic"?
Do yourself a favor and stop watching movies; read a decent thesaurus so you have a chance to get that high school diploma you "appear" to lack.

John II| 8.28.10 @ 3:03PM

It's not clear to me what good a thesaurus would do for my apparent lack of education. In fact, I discourage my college students from that kind of reference.

Even a good thesaurus like Roget's doesn't contain the discriminating synonymies one needs to choose the right word for a given task. From Roget, you get only lists of synonyms, but no exposition of the fine distinctions of meaning between, for example, "impede" and "hinder" or "reckless" and "foolhardy." For that kind of distinction, a writer's preferred tool is a reliable desk dictionary such as the American Heritage or Webster's New World.

I also teach my students to avoid the use of complex questions and false dilemmas in their arguments. Such rudimentary illogic is rhetorically costly, projecting an image of intellectual and possibly even moral incompetence.

Neo-Nazi=TeaBaggers| 8.28.10 @ 4:21PM

We are of the same stripe fool! Now get it right , or i shall have to report you to Sarah, our dear leader.
All you masochist males, who love it anyway, can get your frustrations over your resentment of child support relieved.
Now get down on your knees and pray to Beckenstein.

Larry in Iowa| 8.28.10 @ 9:12PM

Hey Larry, what about the Greek Orthodox church that has not been allowed to REBUILD? Is it ok for Bloomberg and the boys to fast track a new Mosque two blocks away from GZ but allow the bureaucracy to stymie a Christian Church that was already there? Apparently it's not a problem with the left, as long as it's Christians you're screwing with.

Jack Bauer| 8.29.10 @ 5:53AM

Imam Larry -- Finally a leftist finds a religion he can support.

A supremacist Islam which wet dreams of restoring the global caliphate.

But like the neo-comms brief love-affair with the CIA, pace Plame, leftists soon return to their munhiged hate and prejudice.

davelnaf| 8.27.10 @ 5:01PM

According to the religious luminaries of the NCC whatever goes on overseas is right, good, and proper. Whatever happens in the US is at best suspect and at worse deserves to be brought to the attention of the Hague or that champion of human rights the UN Human Rights Commission. This is their true faith.

Michele San Pietro| 8.27.10 @ 5:34PM

There's nothing new. The religious left is equally as nasty here in Italy.

Larry| 8.27.10 @ 6:01PM

That's what I heard. Is it true that you can't build a Catholic church next to a school?

Michele San Pietro| 8.29.10 @ 3:42PM

No, this is fortunately not true. We have many schools near Catholic churches, there's even one close to my home.

Charles Stevens| 8.27.10 @ 10:42PM

The left are zealots to a secular religion based on equality of results, otherwise known as cultural Marxism. This includes those purveyors of social justice who are ostensibly Christians. God is made subservient to the almighty State, because the needs of the many forcibly outweigh the needs of the individual.

Equality of results can be pursued only by treating people, cultures, religions and societies unequally. The left must drag down anything deemed "unfairly" successful, and elevate that which it views as "oppressed". This is also the origin of leftist double standards and related lies. Since the left will never see this as wrong, Conservatives should stop deceiving themselves that some kind of constructive dialogue is possible.

There are three competing religious traditions in the world: Judeo-Christianity, Islam, and progressivism. If Conservatives fail to find a backbone, if they are always playing defense, if they cannot realize that the time for dialogue is long past, then the first religious ethos will be totally consumed by the others.

RCV| 8.27.10 @ 11:28PM

I guess those pesky Hindus and Bhuddists don't count.
This whole post doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Vic| 8.29.10 @ 9:54PM

I think we can accommodate all twelve of them, if they promise not to fly airplanes into skyscrapers.

John| 8.27.10 @ 11:45PM

It's extremely hard being a moderate Moslem when you have this many verses in the Koran promoting Jihad. I was wondering whether moderate Moslem's and their left wing (Christian & non-Christian) supporters have actually read the Koran, as terrorists no doubt have. Little wonder most Moslem's around the world celebrated 9/11, and likely still do, and now want a super Mosque next door.

http://www.answering-islam.org.....sages.html

Larry| 8.28.10 @ 2:43AM

John,
Do you mean stuff like this:
"And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and with all their soul, but that whoever would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, should be put to death, whether young or old, man or woman. "2 Chronicles 15:12-13

Burke| 8.28.10 @ 11:32AM

Dennis Praeger has pointed out that all of the Old Testament references to killing unbelievers refer to a specific, time-bound event in history, not a generalized command to kill all unbelievers at all times, in all places. Moreover, these verses all occur in the first half of the Old Testament. As a practical matter, it has been millenia since Jews tried to kill off other people. For Christians, the New Testament supercedes the Old. There is nothing in the New Testament that would justify the killing of anyone.
Now it is certainly true that, in times past, Christians did kill unbelievers, but they justified it by cherry-picking early Old Testament verses, and ignoring the later prophets and Christ Himself.

The Bible is a collection of "books", which are arranged chronologically, and can be read holistically. One difficulty with the Koran, is it consists of many individual verses, arranged by length,without regard to when they were written.
So, even if there were an evolution in the minds of the founders of Islam, going from slaughter to some form of tolerance, it would be impossible to perceive that from the Koran.

Larry| 8.28.10 @ 1:22PM

Thanks for writing a clearly stated opinion without name calling.
The reason I pointed out that one verse was to make a point, which I didn't take the time to make.
We should judge people by their actions, not by their religion. Most people did not choose their religion, that choice was made by their parents.

In stating their objections to the Mosque, writers and commentators, such as Tooley repeatedly attempt to equate American Muslims with terrorism. None of these writers explain why one American has the moral right to tell any religion where they can and should build a place of worship. If we can do this to one religion, we can do it to any. Instead they attempt to make their argument through guilt by association and once again, if we play that game, all faiths are in trouble.
For instance Tooley says, " But there are not 100 million Christians in the world sympathizing with al Qaeda style terrorism, as surveys indicate that about 10 percent of the world's 1 billion Muslims do. " This is patently false. The inference he wants us to make is that therefore 10% of American Muslims are supporters of terror. And, if that is the case, we are rightful to regard this religion as practiced in the U.S., is a threat.
The true facts behind his statement can be read in this report: http://www.worldpublicopinion......09_rpt.pdf
The story of the Mosque provides good fodder for politicians and pundits. It is also meat for those who wish to stir discontent and bring out the worse in us.
I dislike those opportunists who take advantage of our prejudices and ignorance to make a buck or advance their political agenda. We cannot let stand the idea that people in this country can determine the superiority or inferiority of one faith over another and make public policy based on that assertion.

John II| 8.28.10 @ 3:33PM

The 10 percent figure struck me as odd too. The study you cite says that "large majorities" of the world's Muslims reject terror, but the largest majority (85 percent) is in Egypt, followed by Indonesia (72 percent) and Pakistan (51 percent). In other words, in the three Muslim countries surveyed, the percentage of Muslims who SUPPORT terror is 15, 28, and 49. To my knowledge, Morocco is the only Muslim country in which the support for terror is somewhat lower than Egypt's 15 percent.

It appears, then, that Mr. Tooley's figure is understated. The surveys, of course, are problematic because the opinion samples are taken from populations culturally conditioned against a free expression. (Translation: you can get your head cut off for saying the wrong thing in public.) But the spread of numbers I've seen average out to about 25 percent support for terror among Muslims worldwide.

When you say "This is patently false," what does "this" refer to and how is the falsehood patent?

Larry| 8.28.10 @ 4:49PM

The point is...what does this have to do with American Muslims who weren't surveyed? Or aren't they part of the world's Muslim population?
Why does the author cite this statistic when expressing opposition to building a house of prayer?
Isn't it obvious that he is trying to incite fear and suspicion?

John II| 8.28.10 @ 6:54PM

"Why does the author cite this statistic when expressing opposition to building a house of prayer?"

Mr. Tooley cites the statistic in the penultimate paragraph of his essay: the context is his response to what he calls (accurately, in my experience) the religious left's greater fear of conservative Christians than of Islamic jihadists. He illustrates the absurdity of the religious left's skewed fears with the observation that Christians claim no equivalent to Muslim sympathy for terror.

Again, I think Mr. Tooley understates the percentage substantially, but his point is still pertinent (i.e., logically connected) to the foolishness he discerns in the denizens of the religious left.

"Isn't it obvious that he is trying to incite fear and suspicion?"

Again, your complex question--a dodge to which you seem to be addicted--doesn't warrant a reply precisely because you're not asking an openly framed question; you're just advancing a cheap shot none-too-cleverly disguised.

All that is "obvious" to me is that Mr. Tooley has successfully displayed the foolishness of the religious left. And all you've displayed so far, Larry, is an ornery disposition wedded to poor reading skills and a sloppy use of sources.

And now back to "Them" (1954), the first and only good giant-insect monster movie, starring the incomparable Edmund Gwinn as the shrewd myrmecologist. If they ever do a remake, you might want to audition as one of the ill-tempered desert ants.

Larry| 8.28.10 @ 7:38PM

Once again your argument is devoid of facts so you resort to name calling and attacking the messenger.
Why don't you just answer the question ?

Is it really necessary to place a label on everyone who had a different opinion?
"Conservative Christians"? As opposed to what? Liberal Christians? You think god gives a crap?
"The religious left"? What was Jesus, left, right?
The article is
another conspiracy theory to rile up the base.
They all have the same theme..Someone is out to get you.
Blacks, illegal immigrants, gays, the left, the media, gun control advocates, right to life groups, socialists, commies, anti-Christmas groups, Acorn, Black Panthers, the entire United Nation (but especially France) and the list goes on..
Perhaps you would like to add "giant insect monsters" to the list.

John II| 8.28.10 @ 7:56PM

" . . . you resort to name calling . . ."

But Larry, I didn't call you a name. I said that you have done nothing so far but display an ornery disposition. You must learn to read before responding. That seems to be the crux of the problem. You just don't listen. I am saddened.

That's what the more practiced lefties say when they don't have an argument: "I am saddened."

You're right about France, though.

Now please stop interrupting my important viewing of "Them." Edmund Quinn is giving his lecture on ants.

John II| 8.28.10 @ 7:59PM

I mean Edmund GWINN.

Or is the name spelled Gwen? Now I can't remember. He played Santa in the 1948 version of "Miracle on 34th Street."

John II| 8.28.10 @ 8:04PM

I looked it up in my Junior Woodchucks Guidebook of Universal Knowledge. It's Edmund GWENN.

You see, I always check my facts.

Long Ben| 8.28.10 @ 3:24AM

Regarding the religious lefts representation of the Saints in Jerusalem holding all things in common. It was voluntary to every believer as set forth in the record of Annaias and Saphira in Acts.
There was no government bayonet involved in it's collection , more over having sold their land ( for many their only source of production ) the Saints in Jerusalem became the object of charity of other churchs , as told of in later scriptures.

martin j smith| 8.28.10 @ 8:24AM

For some you who may take seriously: this first comment is a joke: Is Mayor Bloomberg a Muslim ?
No- but what he is is a " Born Again Socialist" From his first term as Mayor, he ran as a Economic Conservative and social moderate. But his New Religion is now Socialism ( or it Communism ) in his third term--a major error giving him another term. Mayor Bloomber has joined the " Church or is it Mosque of BHO".
Lets look at one tiny miny blip of an incident that demonstrates the dangers of this New Religion.
Recall a few days ago a young man, 21 years old, film maker who allegedly was drunk and allegedly stabbed a Muslim Cab Driver. All of a sudden Bloomberg made this into a big "hate crime" and even on the front page of the NY Post this kids picture was pasted on it. A pathetic looking hate crimer indeed. So, he was tried, convicted and exececuted by our government and media in one day. Now that is quick justice is it not. Yet, this is the New Religion. And, yet have you heard one peep of this kid since ? None --out of sight out of mind. Was he a prop ? Was he summarily shot, was he exiled ? This what will happen but in an even more sinister government unless the American People wake. This is our New Relgion.

RCV| 8.28.10 @ 7:22PM

Bloomberg "made this into a big hate crime"? Some poor cabdriver is asked if he's a Muslim and when he relies yes, he's slashed and stabbed. It IS a hate crime, and one that is the forseeable fruit of the kind of venomous anti-Muslim hate that TAS is famous for.

John II| 8.28.10 @ 7:45PM

Now how can you get fruit, forseeable or otherwise, out of something venomous?

Stop mixing your metaphors, Ricky--it's the surest sign that a writer isn't thinking. If you insist on being mindless, you must cultivate a language properly disguised.

And now back to "Them," a scary movie about the 1954 Muslim invasion of the Arizona desert.

Tim*| 8.28.10 @ 11:41PM

Apparently , RCV is attempting to play both sides of the street .

Ron Krumpos | 8.28.10 @ 3:30PM

I just read a comment on an atheist website that has the best statement on this controversy I have heard yet.

Plus, has anyone looked at the Ground Zero site lately? It's trashed. It's gross. If this is supposed to be a memorial, a place for people to come to remember, mounds of dirt and scaffolding is not going to do the job. It truly worries me that our politicians and citizens are too busy being worried about a religious group trying to practice hope and love and peace (which IS what Islam teaches), than to memorialize a site they consider oh so sacred.

See http://lovedilemmas.blogspot.c.....logna.html

John II| 8.28.10 @ 3:40PM

If you consider such boilerplate the "best statement" you've read, you haven't read much.

Try reading the Qur'an if you want to learn about the religion of "hope and love and peace."

larry| 8.29.10 @ 12:07AM

Teacher! Teacher! I've read it and it really is the religion of "hope and love and peace", just like the Old Testament only with fewer Jews.

Jack Bauer| 8.29.10 @ 5:49AM

" just like the Old Testament only with fewer Jews.

What do you mean "fewer Jews"? Is this a wish on your part? To see fewer Jews around you?

Actually most of the folks in the New Testament are Jews, I believe. Starting with the big guy Jesus.

Certainly compared to the Koran, where the mention of a "Jew" is usually followed by a screed on how and why he is to be MURDERED.

In the name of Allah, of course. So that's Okay.

Felix| 8.28.10 @ 7:40PM

Let the leftists have their mosque in the heart of left wing New York. Then when a gay bar opens up next door, we will all be able to see just how tolerant they are of each other.

Larry| 8.29.10 @ 12:09AM

Yeah, open it right next to the strip club so the RNC has somewhere to go. Oh that's right, they already have the gay bar.

Supreme Galooti| 8.29.10 @ 2:32AM

Hey Larry,

Methinks thou art an asterix. If I had the (dis)pleasure of your company right now, I would simply smack yer gob. Stuff yer crapolla and grieve for your lost (now completely irretrievable) education.

Jack Bauer| 8.29.10 @ 5:44AM

"They already have the gay bar"

Actually they don't. That project is still in the planning stage led my the excellent Greg Gutfeld.

And your problem with a gay bar with a floor catering for Muslims is what, exactly?

You sound a bit of a gay basher Larry? Larragay protesteth a tad too much?

Jack Bauer| 8.29.10 @ 5:40AM

"Sojourners Evangelical Left activist Jim Wallis,"

That would be SOROSjourners -- as the slimey megalomaniacal Hungarian "leftist" billionaire has secretly pumped more than $7 million into his pet "Christian" organization.

A fact Wallis has consistently LIED about until recently

martin j smith| 8.29.10 @ 8:08AM

The "New Religion" is very much like " The Nazi Christian Church " and Stalinist version of Russian Nationalism and Political Orthodoxy. That means you better say exactly what you are told and do not even look ijn funny way or you will be terminated.
In the United States under Obama was are just getting started. . If you are a troll-well I would reccommend two English Speaking cities i would suggest you move to: Toronto ( that would be in Canada by the way ) and London ( that would be in Great Britain ). Their form of "democracy" would more to your li9king.
But for me and I believe a majority of Americans--this New religion is not for us. You will more large numbers of people rallying with at least on common word they agree on: FREEDOM.
That is my New Relgion.

Jim Woodward| 8.29.10 @ 1:53PM

Mark,
I believe you are in error on your fast track to completion by Sept. 11, 2011 statement. I have read that date is the planned ground breaking ceremony.

Jim Woodward| 8.29.10 @ 2:07PM

I'm not a builder, but how are they going to secure the funding, get the permits, knock down two buildings, build a new one and comply with all the different inspections in one year even if they started today and worked 24/7?
Plus, it seems the unions and many suppliers may not be willing to participate. Nothing happens in NY without the unions.

Joe D.| 8.30.10 @ 4:58PM

Will you get rid of this Clown and his ramblings. We get enough of that from vtwin and RCV.

And by the way, RCV you can leave any time you want. We will pay for a one way ticket for you if you think this is anywhere near a Christain Theocracy.

T1Brit| 8.31.10 @ 6:41PM

Brilliant piece. The depravity of the self-hating multiculturalist in a nutshell.

Bob Mack | 9.10.10 @ 8:34PM

Even old Colin Powell is behind the Cordoba House (a name which has more sinister indications than the MSM has let on).

http://crockettlives.wordpress.....th-a-view/

Louis Vttion handbags | 12.9.10 @ 2:16AM

OhBummer's Healthcare Hijacking is nothing more than an atrocious act of vandalism, in the wake of which he struts around like the cxck-o-the-walk, arrogantly crowing that he has gotten away with this crime. He challenges those who would repeal this mess, daring them to lose votes in that enterprise, but one must remember that those who favor the Healthcare Hijacking would have voted for OhBummer and the OhBummer Wrecking Crew in any case. Perhaps OhBummer had better find a country with which we do not have an extradition treaty and start transferring his millions of dollars there now, as insurance against justice.

wholesale beads | 4.1.11 @ 3:47AM

nice

Joanna | 6.6.11 @ 4:58AM

What an interesting article- I hope to read more like this, thanks!UTI Treatment

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