The American Spectator : Sag Harbor

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Sag Harbor

By Christopher Orlet on 8.26.10 @ 6:07AM

Radical self-expression in the produce section.

The sign on the door of John English's store reads "No shoes, No shirt, No service. And pull up your pants!" Waiting in the checkout line, I ask the proprietor if he is still having trouble with shirtless and shoeless customers with sagging trousers.

"It's worse," John moans, shaking his head despondently. "I don't know what the world's coming to."

John has run this little corner grocery for 35 years. He's seen nonconformist fashion trends come and go: ultra-miniskirts, hoodies, backward baseball caps. Who can forget that brief period a few years ago when girls wore those incredibly low-cut jeans with the highly visible thongs?

"I didn't think it could get worse than the saggy pants," John says. "Boy was I naive."

I remember the sagging pants. They were all the rage in the 1990s. At first the trousers sagged only somewhat, barely enough to identify the color and make of the boxers. As the years advanced, however, trousers continued their downward progression.

In those days, there was much debate about the significance of "jailin'," as the trend was called. Berkeley grad school students even wrote dissertations on the phenomenon. One popular theory had the fad originating with prisoners' ill-fitting clothing. Ex-cons brought this fashion statement to the ghetto where it was popularized. Wearing droopy drawers became a symbol of solidarity with convicts past and present.

Today we can look back on the era of the sagging trousers as a relatively enlightened period. Some of the younger (male mostly) customers coming into John English's store now wear long tight-fitting gym shorts that they position well below their buttocks. What's more, they have switched from boxers to tighty whities. I have no idea why, but doubtless some Berkeley grad student is researching the subject as we speak. (What must it be like to have one's every asinine deed awarded cultural significance?)

As for John's signage, the stern warning seems to be having the desired effect, though the impact is temporary; once outside the store, down go the drawers.

"They can't even walk," John says. "They got their pants down around their knees and they can barely walk. I don't get it. Why wear pants at all? Why not just walk around in your skivvies?"

Beats me. I thought the fad would have been long gone by now. Dumb fashions usually have a lifespan of five years, tops. Not even leisure suits had this kind of longevity.

I WILL SAY ONE THING: the great science fiction writers had it all wrong. According to the sci-fi classics, by now we should all be wearing metallic form-fitting uniforms like the Robinson family from Lost in Space. I suppose if H.G. Wells and Isaac Asimov had really been prescient, they would have portrayed their futuristic characters stumbling around with their pants around their ankles.

The trouble with sci-fi authors is most assumed Homo sapiens would continue to evolve intellectually when all the evidence points in the opposite direction. As far as I can tell, the only writer who has gotten it right is Mike Judge. Judge's film Idiocracy depicts a future in which no one has an IQ above 70, although even these denizens of future Earth at least appear to wear belts.

I fear that John may be leaving himself open to charges of… whatever the ACLU calls discrimination based on the public display of one's soiled BVDs. It's happened before. Banning customers from one's business because of the way they're dressed -- or undressed -- can get you into hot water, especially if the banned person happens to hold membership in a protected class. I just don't want to see John's store picketed by dozens of jockey supporters who think that showing one's dirty underpants is a constitutional right, when it is clear from his writings that James Madison was a supporter of decency: "If men were angels, no pants would be necessary."

I suppose it's inevitable, too, that droopy-drawered youths everywhere will demand victim status since wearing one's pants around one's knees is a legitimate expression of urban street culture -- expressing contempt for societal norms and the belt and suspender industries, I suppose. Anyone who decries the continuing descent of man's pants, and the ongoing civilizational decline they symbolize, is obviously a bigot.

I know, it sounds absurd. But is it any more absurd than tripping around a grocery store with your pants around your ankles?

About the Author

Christopher Orlet writes from St. Louis and is a frequent contributor to The American Spectator Online.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (119) | Leave a comment

Filofox| 8.26.10 @ 6:34AM

I dunno about the science fiction writers and metallic skin tight suits, Robert Heinlein's vision seemed to include kilts. Works for me. Creag an Tuirec!

Bydand76| 8.26.10 @ 9:33AM

Filofox,

Works for me as well!

Pro Libertate!

Miss Alabama| 8.26.10 @ 9:41AM

Sagging pants are just another expression of young male aggression.

Their tastes in fashion, music, and entertainment is carefully contrived to express their in-your-face hostility.

Let's take their music as an example. Most young males listen to heavy metal rock, an abrasive style of noise emanating from electric guitars that sound more like power saws than musical instruments. And they like to hear this noise at ear-splitting levels.

Young males, evidently, reject melody and harmony because melody and harmony are considered by most people to be the most beautiful aspects of music. Instead, their music emphasizes rhythm and volume and illiterate and violent lyrics.

Here are some other young male passions: boom boxes in trunks of cars, loud mufflers, tattoos, profanity and vulgarity--in other words, anything to offend the sensibilities of older, more civilized folk.

And I recall when my brother and I were teenagers; we listened in rapture to albums of broadway musicals. The beautiful music of Rogers and Hammerstein, Lerner and Loewe, etc. are looked down on by today's youth as "music for old-fashioned gays." Such are the times . . .

Purple Lips| 8.26.10 @ 10:20AM

Are you referring to "show tunes"? And as far as rock music goes, the late Alan Bloom once wrote that all early rock music took its beat from Ravel's Bolero - which is based on the rhythm of coitus.

Eminence| 8.26.10 @ 10:31AM

And your point is?

Chris| 8.26.10 @ 1:05PM

Actually, rock music evolved from the blues, gospel, and country music more than anything else, including Bolero. And coitus is even older.

rtaylortitle| 9.6.10 @ 10:28PM

Excellent point.

wodiej| 8.26.10 @ 11:23AM

right on all counts. I think they do it for attention too.

Richard| 8.26.10 @ 12:18PM

Which young males are you talking about. Don't make the liberal insult of equating all with the perverse few.

Annie Mae Musslewhite| 8.26.10 @ 12:45PM

Mercy me!

Did Miss Alabammy make the "liberal insult of equating all with the perverse few"? Shame on her.

Mammy o' mine!

Them liberals are guilty of nearly everthang, including the "liberal insult of equating all with the perverse few."

Praise the Lord for posters like Richard!

I learn somthing new every day! Much obliged, Richard, for enlightening me. You clever old fox, have you got any more shimmering "insights" to share with us AmSpec readers?

Madge Fridgetairie| 8.26.10 @ 12:56PM

Are you the Annie Mae Musslewhite from Hot Coffee, Mississippi?

My daddy had a aunt--a great aunt--that bears your name, and she comes from the Tulalahula County Musslewhites who located around Chitlinville in the early 1800s.

I surely would like to aquaint myself with my Musslewhite kin, and perhaps we can have a reunion sometime this fall in or around Chitlinville.

You can post your reply right here on this page if you are the Annie Mae Musslewhite I'm related to.

Chris| 8.26.10 @ 1:28PM

Yes, young men are horrible, horrible creatures who should all be castrated and taught ballet. THEN this world would be perfect, and I could finally get some sleep...

Miss Alabama, please... Yes, your post describes a segment of our male adolescent population, but please don't stop your analysis there. First of all, there is absolutely nothing new about having lots of energy, sexual interest, frustration with society born of a mix of idealism and naivete (think Catcher in the Rye), wanting to belong to a "gang" of male peers, and wanting to make one's own mark in the world. This is the story of young men from time immemorial. It's a mixture of becoming an adult, being pumped with testosterone, and ixpart of God's awesome design for the male sex. Our duty and challenge as adults is to love them and help them channel these powerful drives in good and helpful ways, guide them to better answers to their questions, and not simply make blanket, emotion-based judgments about them, focusing on surface issues, and not engaging their hearts and minds, or finding ourselves in their struggles.

Forgive me if I'm misinterpreting, and with all do respect to you personally, but posts like this sound shallow, selfish, and anti-male. Yes, there is a lot of aggression and anger in contemporary music; but there is also a lot of love, longing, creativity, and hope. People are people, and there is nothing new under the sun. (And a lot of metal/rock music is a lot more melodic and difficult to play than you seem to discern.) Go back and listen to those Rogers and Hammerstein musicals, they aren't so innocent as they may have seemed when you were young. There is a whole lot of sex and longing and anger and gossip and hopes and dreams and affairs and murder and... sounds a lot like contemporary music, just packaged differently.

Rather than take a me-first attitude when other generations do things differently than us, perhaps we should start by asking why so many youth seem so frustrated and angry in the first place. They are growing up in the world WE helped to shape. If we have our act together so well, then why is there so much anomie and frustration in today's youth? Has our American dream become distorted and consumeristic and shallow? Are we trying to buy their affections and keep them occupied w/video games, etc. instead of doing the hard work of building real relationships w/them? If our youth disrespectful and crude, it's because we did not raise them to be otherwise. If everytime your child rudely talked back to you you did and said nothing, why do you expect them to be polite and considerate to a stranger? If our teachers are powerless to discipline their students, and parents automatically take their kid's side when they do something wrong, is it any wonder they don't respect outside authority? And if we aren't loving our kids and building them up in right things and nurturing their strengths and helping them develop a healthy, self-respecting, and servant-hearted self image, then how do we expect them to acquire that?

I have been in youth ministry for over 12 years, and I can tell you that you should never judge a person by their "cover." Young adults will surprise you, and it's often the ones who are more "put together" and presentable on the outside that have the deeper secrets and issues, bottled up inside. The ones who are more edgy are often the ones who are more ready to deal with them. They aren't hiding anything. Life, ultimately, isn't about our own comfort or our preferences. As a Christian, I believe it is about God's kingdom, and the end result in the individual is more important than how messy it is getting there.

Toto| 8.26.10 @ 1:46PM

Chris,

I imagine you are one of those "hip" youth ministers who belong to the kind of hipster church that employs the praise rock 'n' roll band.

"Come, Lord Jesus,
Our guest to be,
And let us rock 'n' roll with thee . . ."

Young males have bulldozed their loud, ugly, violent tastes on to the popular culture scene, and now their sensibility is the national norm. Rampant vulgarity everywhere!

Call me a sissy, but I detest young male sensibilities, and I always have and always will. And as for music, like Miss Alabama, I prefer classical and show tunes, and I always have.

Yeah, just call me a sissy, preacherman.

Brandon R.| 8.26.10 @ 1:55PM

Way to go, Toto.

Young male technology nerds who have the technical savvy to push their virulent adolescent trash have hijacked our culture. It's the technology nerds that control our TV programming (reality shows, God Almighty!), movies, music, etc.

Like you, I am sick of male culture. You can call me a sissy (faggot is what most of these readers will say) but my tastes are more romantic and feminine.

And speaking of males, most of these commenters are male--male and adolescent in their mentality.

Hey, you males out there--I celebrate my feminine side.

Bydand76| 8.26.10 @ 4:37PM

Brandon,

What exactly is male culture and how do you celebrate your "feminine side"???

What does that even mean?

Pro Libertate!

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 10:49PM

You fail to grasp the source of the degeneracy that you loathe.

A young man will do nearly anything to appease their desire for woman. It is the degeneracy in women that have let the male culture go to seed.

Femnazis shriek at the evils of marriage, yet fail to realize that it is marriage that civilized the man and honors the woman.

knickknack | 8.26.10 @ 6:12PM

"Come, Lord Jesus,
Our guest to be . . . "

Toto, you are too funny. Thanks for the laugh.

CalMark| 8.26.10 @ 2:12PM

Goodness me, what a loooong post. Lots of hippie shibboleths there. And sanctimony, too.

All this talk about "God's Kingdom" is a smokescreen. Cultural norms exist for a good reason: they keep the world safe for civility, not the PC kind, but the kind that elevates humanity.

Angry youth are that way because destructive, nihilist counterculture types--who also encourage norm-destroying dress and behavior-- have taught them to be so.

If you think it's wonderful, go ahead and wallow joyfully in the cacophony, disorder, and slovenliness. But don't subject the rest of us to it, let alone lecture us that we should embrace it joyfully.

Mr. Mr.| 8.26.10 @ 2:24PM

Spot on, CalMark!

Pertronius| 8.26.10 @ 4:25PM

Good one. Godly One. Kings have subjects. The cohort of this discussion will not be ruled short of physical force.
Liberalism was spawned by hypocritical "conservative" people who held authority over us Boomers who resented their arbitrary use of discipline, playing favorites, and meting out punishments without just cause. Those who want to inculcate decency, fair play, altruism, and honesty had best deliver in kind on their own time. When a kid witnesses any adult utter an epithet and gets smacked for copying it, nobody should be surprised if he doesn't respond the second time by spitting in both your faces.
As to ballet. These slobs are the ones who dodge gym class. Ballet is tough: requiring flexibility and musicality as well as stamina. Study long enough and it leads to satisfaction and refinement.

Chris| 8.26.10 @ 5:09PM

Thanks for your comments, guys. I'll work backward a bit through them. As to ballet, admittedly, I was being a bit hyperbolic and appealing to stereotypes in an attempt to make my point. I have nothing against danceurs, or male ballet dancers. Yes, it takes great athletecism and grace to be one; I have had dance training myself, not in ballet, but in other styles, though I could tell you the difference between 1st and 2nd position, so sorry if anyone took offense to that. My stereotyped response refers to the masculine "ideal" some hold which is nothing more than effeminization, and counter, I believe to God's design for gender. A "manly" guy will be a manly dancer, or whatever else he does. But the kind of school teacher who thinks she is doing young boys a favor by telling them to sit still all the time is going counter to nature. Self-discipline is important, but it must be balanced with kinesthetic learning, etc., especially with boys. Why do I bring that up? Because I see this underlying philosophy running through a lot of things. For people who entirely don't "get" hard music, that's ok, it wasn't created with you in mind. How can an older female understand what emotions and physical drives a 16 year old boy has? There is a catharsis he can have through metal or rap, etc. that can be a healthy outlet for him. Now, it's the content and atmosphere that makes the difference. Guys I knew "back in the day" in Christian hardcore bands and rap groups were often much more sold-out and living for Christ than a lot of the more mainstream kids I knew. They were using their passion for good purposes, submitting to their elders in appropriate ways, and impacting their peers rightly. I myself have extremely broad musical tastes, music is a great source of pleasure for me, and I am well-versed in styles from Bluegrass to alternative rock, from electronic music to German Baroque. Most of the professional rock musicians you will hear are similarly knowledgeable, and a lot of heavy metal musicians practice the same arpeggios that a classical one does, and they have an appreciation for that type of music, in spite of what non-musicians might assume.
As for the tech-savvy geek state of things, like it or not, that is reality. Those who learn how to use these forms of technology will be the ones who lead our social and cultural futures. This very forum is a product of such technology.
As to having a feminine side; in my understanding, there is no such thing. I am a man, and for me, my goal is to be a fully developed male. Fully developed/balanced includes both strength and vulnerability, leadership and nurture, logic and emotion, technicality and poetry, physical and soul. My core identity is male, and so all of these areas are filtered though that, with none of them being more or less important to my maleness. With Christ as my model, I see him perfectly embodying all of these traits at appropriate times, without ever denying his gendered identity. The same goes for women. They have all of these traits, and should nurture them, and yet they will to some degree be filtered through their feminine identity. Look at many Southern women--they have an awesome way of being completely feminine, yet tough as nails. They are balanced, but not androgynous.
Re: hippy shibboleths, I do prefer organic produce (which is actually a very paleo-conservative thing to do, support family farms over corporate agribusiness), but I'm not a hippy, I take showers on a regular basis.
I, too, am sick of male culture, if by male culture, you mean "guy" culture. I am not praising that. But I am praising true manliness and I think means both having an intelligent conversation and beating the crap out of a drumset once in a while.
And I don't think it's the countercultural types who make young adult men violent, etc. I thought hippies were peace-promoting types, anyway? How does that math work? I think its a combo of the passive liberal (not enough discipline/structure) and the misguided, "greed is good" neo-c0n who substiute material objects and "comfort" for love and relationship that contribute to these problems. Add to the me-first pro-divorce culture, absent, emotionally neglectful and sometimes abusive fathers, etc. and you've got a fertile field for adolescent angst. Sure, reality shows and much of what is on tv, etc is crap. And that doesn't help. And youth are its largest consumers--but that's just it, they consume it. Who produces it? The baby boomers, etc. who are getting rich off of our kids. It's the hippy-turned-suburban yuppies who are capitalizing on our depravity who get rich off of stories about teens having sex and glorifying drugs and violence. I can't fault the kids for eating what the parents are feeding them. The youth aren't our enemies, they are our hope, they are our future. Its our peers and elders who need to change. Do this, and those younger than you will follow, that's how they are designed to respond.

Chris| 8.26.10 @ 5:10PM

Woah! Sorry for the length and lack of paragraphs!

Petronius| 8.27.10 @ 2:09AM

C
You must be tired by now. And the point of agreement among us all is about ending the havoc visited upon us by feral boys who reach the age of majority without acculturating to true manhood.
The only bug in your last is that our peers need to change. Our peers are those of like mind to ourselves. It is the elites who control our cultural institutions and our government who must be removed from power. They feign identification with and championship of the underclass whom they despise slightly less than us. Yet they employ the saggers, rappers, rockers, screen sluts, and other pond life to vandalize our culture because they believe anything unworthy of mention in the Washington Post Style Section must be extirpated and their fulfillment finalized in seeing it done.
Meanwhile, read The Great Roob Revolution, by Roger Price; Random House 1970. Then reread it.
Pax vobiscum.

Chris| 8.27.10 @ 1:52PM

Very true. I meant "peers" in the literal sense, not the affective sense. These elites are the peers who need to change, for sure, but many of those who might agree in ideology don't walk the walk in their own families like they should, either. There are big changes that need to take place in Washington, but perhaps bigger changes need to take place at home. As believers in limited government, we recognize the limited role government can play in real social change. Traditional, "plain folk Americanism" as some have called it was all about the importance of grass roots solutions to real problems. Regardless of who's in power this week, it's our literal peers and neighbors and school boards and churches and businesses, etc. who determine society and who raise our kids and who relate in community. That is the heart and soul of American society, and it's liberating, because it's something we can all work on.
I will look up that book, thanks for the recommendation!

Frank Kovach| 9.30.10 @ 6:00PM

Preach it, brother!

Believer| 8.27.10 @ 4:08PM

Chris- If you have been in youth ministry for 12 years and think that todays youth and their music as well as their attitude are a result of the older Generation letting them down, I would say that your parrt of the problem. I can understand Miss Alabama as she is a decieved liberal, but you sound like the youth Minister at our church, whatever gets them in is what he allows. As a result the music from the youth service is so loud and worldly that not only can you not understand it but the reaction from the kids is the same as a worldly concert. Now the girls come to church dressed like street walkers and the boys show little interest in traditional values. And another thing please dont compare Rogers and Hammerstein with todays so called music. The fault of our youth is to a degree the Parents but the real reason is their Rebellion to society, until the church teach's them to respect our traditional values there will be no Fundamental church in 50 years. So stop trying to fill your pews with worldly kids and get the few dedicated kids busy and you'll see the pews filled without your stupid Rock n Roll music.

rtaylortitle| 9.6.10 @ 10:34PM

With all due respect, you're totally offbase Chris. The "cover" you speak of is what displays to the world what your inner thoughts are. You're being "in the ministry" and a "Christian" has nothing to do with the matter. Just as a mans "words" are important so is his attitude and sense of life. The only "me first attitude" is see here is yours. Stop pontificating! Miss Alabama is 'right-on' in her assessment.

Frank| 9.30.10 @ 5:56PM

Amen, brother. I decided to reply after reading a few of the comments who criticized you. I thought you were well spoken, sincere, and on the money for the most part. I think people who post on here sometimes read too much into what people are saying, or assume too much. I too, am a Christian, and I understand your point of view and worldview.

SpiralArchitect| 8.26.10 @ 6:43PM

Blue Ribbon to you for ignorance and intollerance.

Here is one for you: " Quick to judge quick to anger, slow to understand" - Rush ( ironic the song is called -Witch Hunt)

A nice little lyric from one of the genres of music you fear so much - I suppose Rock music ( or Heavey Metal if you prefer) is definately ordained from Hell - Fire and Brimstone for all!

Don't worry and no need for haste, there is enough ingorance to go around...I'm sure you will be back for a second share.

Patrick| 8.29.10 @ 10:40PM

Bwah-ha-ha!

Heavy Metal? Seriously, have you been living in a cave since the 80's? You won't find more than a handful of enthusiasts listening to such music under the age of 30, and the band playing is no less than 40. Also, the boom-boxes are gone too.

Rap and Hip-hop are still going strong however.

As for "show tunes", they ARE the essence of homosexual nostalgia. Sure you might like it, but they like it more. Also, if you liked the Wizard of Oz, I have bad news...

Frank| 9.30.10 @ 5:50PM

I resent your use of the phrase "most young men." I was a young man, not too long ago, and when I'm forgetful enough, still consider myself a "young man." While my taste in music might not be exactly to your liking, I can understand your hangup with a lot of modern "music." I can't stand a lot of stuff that is out there passing itself off as music. However, I would heartily disagree that this is a phenom shared by "most young men." The sad truth is that a minority of these people can make the rest of us geezers miserable and cranky, and often do.

Jamie W.| 8.26.10 @ 1:15PM

Speaking as an interested female, I too support the kilt-wearing vision of Robert Heinlein. More men in kilts! ;)

Madge| 8.26.10 @ 6:15PM

Why is this subject generating so many comments? I'm flummoxed.

Filofox| 8.27.10 @ 2:45AM

It's the kilt, Madge, it's the kilt.

Tom| 8.26.10 @ 6:52AM

But what a marketing coup! Not only are those trousers impossible to actually use as functional apparel, but they arrive already sanded and washed in acid so they wont last more than a few months. Moreover, if the wearer actually does heroically cast off his victim hood and get a job, he will have to buy a complete new wardrobe to stay employed. I think the clothing industry has invented a new pet rock.

Ret. Marine| 8.26.10 @ 7:30AM

I have seen a great many of "bro's" trying to outrun the cops while trying to keep their britches up at the same time, talk about ROTFLMAO. Could it get any funnier than that. Stupid goes as stupid does.

Andrew B.| 8.26.10 @ 7:42AM

As Ret. Marine notes above, I have had several police officers tell me that sagging pants are the greatest crime-stopper since the invention of gunpowder. "Even a fat old guy can catch them now!", as one cop put it.

Another important point about current fashions is this: I have worked in museums dedicated to the Colonial period for many years. I have spent decades defending the concept of wearing powdered wigs, knee britches and tricorn hats. Now, when a teenager brings up how "stupid" 18th century fashions were, I am delighted to retort that, as strange as they seem to us, NOTHING in the past can come close to the sheer non-functional idiocy of wearing pants below one's buttocks.

Richard| 8.26.10 @ 12:20PM

Great story!!

Sag Harbor| 8.26.10 @ 8:12AM

People actually live in Sag Harbor - they keep their designer pants up where the Good Lord intended. Years ago when I was in the fringes of psychology, we had a term "affect". It was possible to get a sense of someone's self image by the way that person dressed, stood, met one's gaze. The affect of the bagsters screams loudly that "I am turds and whey". It is the same with any attention demand from piercings to loud car audio systems. We are living through a moral and self-esteem catastrophe and few even notice. One might ask, "where is the love?". In the Age of Me they don't make it like they used to.

Chris| 8.26.10 @ 5:11PM

You hit the nail on the head, S.H.!

JimH| 8.26.10 @ 8:15AM

Its funny. The roots of the saggy pants look comes from when you go to jail and they take your belt away. Just more gangsta wannabee nonsense.

Louis Jenkins| 8.26.10 @ 8:53AM

Run? They want to get caught! Gives the gangstas more street cred.

C. Vail| 8.26.10 @ 9:02AM

I fail to see any humor in this. I don't know what the origins are, or what the statement is supposed to be. All I know is that it's disgusting: a slap in the face, or rather a raised middle finger thrown at social norms of decent dress and respect for others. Too bad that the 'protected class' to which the author alludes can't protect itself from, nor summon the courage to speak out against, the worst impulses of its degenerate, gangsta members...and too bad that the rest of us have to be subjected to such vile displays. Kudos to store owner John English. Now, if only McDonalds, Walmart, and other major retail establishments would follow suit we could make some real progress in delivering a symbolic smack upside the head to these young punks and ban this abomination from public places.

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 10:22AM

Spot on!

wodiej| 8.26.10 @ 11:26AM

I agree-it's simply vulgar and is in the same class as public indecency as far as I'm concerned.

Lindamay| 8.26.10 @ 12:15PM

Thank you - my sentiments exactly.

I can barely stand it when I have to shop and be faced with pantless bums, spiked hair, and pierced faces...and these are the employees!

In my youth I worked in the marketplace when women could not wear pants. As a "womens libber", I fought for the right to wear a pant suit. Now I have to live with the fact that I am partly to blame for the disgusting displays of disrespect that can be found everywhere - even in church on Sunday.

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 12:34PM

Yes, church is a good demonstration of what we're discussing.

Although I attend church only a handful of times a year, I feel it's important to wear my best clothing when I do out of utmost respect to the church and it's regular members.

Amazingly, I witness many who dress as if they are to go to a beach picnic afterward.

Why not show up with a 128 ounce big gulp? You can put it in a pocket of the over sized cargo shorts you'r wearing.

Arnie| 8.26.10 @ 2:43PM

The way we dress is an extension of etiquette. Church is a time to dress up, to look nice.

As I do my biking around town on Sunday mornings, I see people who are dressed like slobs coming out of these new fringe churches--the kind of church that bends over backwards to cater to the interests and tastes of twenty-somethings, who art tattooed from head to toe.

It's a new world! The barbarians have taken over, and most of them are young--young males, as a matter of fact.

The females with their ugly tatoos and piercings are just following the males' examples. They want to please their potential bedmates by their grungy, tattooed, pierced appearances that say, "hey, I'm available for most anything . . . I'm hip!"

Bydand76| 8.26.10 @ 3:32PM

Lord have Mercy!

C'mon Arnie. Maybe you should take the time to get to know some of those ugly people before you discard them.

I would think it might be a good step in the right direction that they are going to church in the first place!

Lighten up guy. Just because they have a tattoo or a piercing does not mean they are a barbarian!

My father and I wear our Kilts to church. I have tattoos as well. So does my wife. (No piercings though) and we are some of the most Conservative folks at the church we go to!

Would I be considered a "barbarian" in your eyes?

Maybe it would be a reflection on the tattoo'ed barbarians parents more than anything else? Ever thought of that?

Respectfully,

Pro Libertate!

Arnie| 8.26.10 @ 4:14PM

Tattoos signify the following:

1. conformity
2. no imagination
3. no sense of aesthetics

Can you imagine the ugliness of these tattooed slobs when they reach the age to enter retirement villages and assisted-living homes! Lumps, bumps, and sags. Sagging, wrinkled skin bearing the faded, distorted tattoo of some long-dead tattoo artiste! Hellarious!

D. Eric Williams| 8.26.10 @ 5:00PM

There is a tendency in the Church today toward adopting the manner and dress of the world. For instance, it is not uncommon to see tattooed and pierced persons in the pew on Sunday. Often these are not new Christians recently saved from the kingdom of darkness, but second and third generation Church goers, young (and no so young), people raised in Christian homes.

One way that the Church has chosen to deal with this growing phenomena is to down-play the significance of these demonic symbols. That isn't because the older generation actually approves of tattoos and facial piercing; it is because the older generation doesn't really have a well thought out objection to the practices.

For the most part those Christians who oppose "body art" do so simply because it is not "Christian." They're right, but when a young decorated Church goer asks why it isn't Christian, the undecorated can only say that it is worldly and un-Christlike. At which point the hipster will ask what it is about body art that is worldly and un-Christlike. Typically this leaves the artless one speechless. To the conservative Bible believing Christian, tattoos and piercings1 are plainly contrary to Christ's example and one's identity as the temple of the Holy Spirit. Yet he finds that he cannot really articulate a convincing argument as to why. The reason Joe conservative Christian cannot articulate his belief is because in "modern rationalistic Western society, men do not understand the power of non-verbal symbols and of dress."2 In other words, because your average Christian does not understand the significance and prevalence of symbolism he cannot formulate an argument against the misuse of symbols.

James Jordan has written that:

Symbolism, then, is not some secondary concern, some mere curiosity. In a very real sense, symbolism is more important that anything else for the life of man.3

Jordan's thesis is that all of creation is designed by God to tell us about Him and to teach us about reality, by means of symbols. In other words, the world does not exist for its own sake nor ultimately for the sake of man; but it was brought into being in order to disclose God in the symbols of creation.

For instance, God is a shepherd (Ps. 23:1), a fire (Heb. 12:29), like a lion and like a flock of birds (Is. 31:4-5). He is an eagle (Deut. 32:11), a lamb (Is. 53:7, Rev. 5:6), a hen (Matt. 23:37), the morning star (Rev. 22:16), food, drink and bread (Is. 55:1, John 6:35), a rock (Deut 32:4), and a tower (Prov. 18:10). Thus the Christian view of the universe must be fundamentally symbolic.4 We look at a flower, a rock or an eagle in flight and say, "here is wisdom, here is God on display." These things are expressions or symbols that help us to discover God and to learn to see through God's eyes, so to speak. Or to put it another way, the stuff of creation allows us to peer into the (ultimately incomprehensible), character of the Creator and teaches us to think in terms of symbols.

This is how Jesus thought. Take the time to reread the Gospels and you will be reminded that Jesus constantly used symbolic language and stories (parables), to convey truth. If symbols are not important, than nothing Jesus said is important. It seems that everything he taught was explained with symbols. Hence, the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, a dragnet and a pearl of great price. His followers must take up the cross, take on His yoke and let go of their lives.

Since mankind is the special image bearer of God (a special symbol of God), he is likewise a symbol maker. Thus when we invest something with symbolic significance we are supposed to follow God's lead (Eph. 5:1). For instance, God uses dragons to symbolize evil. In like fashion, our use of dragons (in literature, art and so on), should correspond to God's symbolic use of dragons. This isn't to say that a Christians may never utilize dragon imagery in a positive fashion. God Himself speaks of the fire breathing Leviathan in positive terms (Job 41). Indeed, the Tannin, the great monsters of the deep - including Leviathan - were God's own special "pets." Moreover, God endows some symbols with multiple meanings. For instance, there is both the lion of Judah and Satan prowling like a lion (Rev. 5:5, 1 Peter 5:8); the righteous are as bold as a lion and the ungodly ravage like a lion (Prv. 28:1, 15); a lion is the servant of God bringing judgement and it is a wicked people in rebellion against Him (Jer. 4:7, 12:8). Nevertheless, until we better understand God's fluid use of symbols we should remain within the obvious guidelines provided by Scripture.

Symbols are powerful; they are more than the expression of ideas they actually give direction to life: "for God, symbols create reality, for man, symbols structure reality."5 To suggest that we can arbitrarily redefine the meaning of symbols is foolish. For instance, if I were to conduct next Sunday's services while wearing a tie embossed with a swastika, I have little doubt that on Monday I would no longer be employed by the Idaho State Veterans Home in Lewiston or be the pastor of Cottonwood Community Church. Why? Because the Nazi swastika is universally understood as a satanic symbol of evil and death. But what if I protested and claimed that I was rehabilitating the symbol for Christian use? What if I said that I viewed the swastika as a symbol of giving one's all for the sake of Christ and His kingdom? It wouldn't matter. Symbols are too powerful to be toyed with. Even though the swastika has ancient origins that have nothing to do with Naziism I have no doubt that it will forever be associated with the horrors of unbridled power, brutality and death. Truly, the swastika structures reality. It defined a worldview and served as a spur to action drawing out the grisly barbarism of a pagan Germanic people. The same is true for many of the symbols utilized in the sub culture of body art. Skulls, bones, bats, and so on all remain symbols of bad luck, death, magic and evil 6

Which brings us back to the issue of tattoos and piercings. The real reason that they are inappropriate for Christians is that those things symbolize evil. Tattoos and piercings are symbols of a worldview that is opposed to God and His kingdom. In the Bible, marking or cutting the flesh was prohibited because it was part of the Canaanite culture - specifically a ritual to honor or mourn the dead. In Leviticus 19:28 we read, "You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the Lord" (cf. 21:5, Deut. 14:1)7

Pagan thought has long embraced chaos as a regenerative fountainhead; bestiality, homosexuality, self mutilation and so on are indulged in an attempt to size the supernatural power of chaos.8 As a matter of fact there are many today who consider their participation in self mutilation a spiritual experience. They believe that enduring the pain of tattooing or piercing develops control and allows them to discover a deeper sense of themselves.9 Truly it is a spiritual experience; a descent into the realm of the occult. Thus the tattooed and pierced wear the uniform of paganism's foulest form whether they realize it or not.

Moreover, tattooing and piercing have been endowed with negative symbolism in our age as well. Even today with the practices being so prevalent, tattooing and piercing are still equated with criminals and the lower class.10 And yet, modern Christian youth apparently believe that they break new ground by joining the ranks of the tattooed and pierced. Part of the deception is the belief that the underclass lifestyle (and the uniform of paganism), is somehow more real than a life lived in Christlikeness. Theodore Dalrymple writes that those who adopt the norms of the underclass are;

...under the influence of the idea that some aspects of reality are more real than others; that the seedy side of life is more genuine, more authentic, than the refined and cultured side - and certainly more glamours than the bourgeois and respectable side. This idea could be said to be the fundamental premise of modern popular culture.11

Whether the church going tattooed and pierced care to admit it or not, "body art" remains the uniform of the criminal element and the occult; it is associated with rebellion and youthful foolishness - all defined as sinful by God. The tattooed and pierced have the short term view of the self centered worldling rather than the long term view of the self sacrificing born again kingdom Believer. Rather than see the increase of body art in the church as a sign that its symbolic value is undergoing a positive transformation, we need to recognize it as a creeping influence on the Church by the world and the kingdom of darkness.

Chris| 8.27.10 @ 2:34PM

"There is a tendency in the Church today toward adopting the manner and dress of the world."
Like you said, symbols are important. They can be good or evil, and in our pluralistic and multicultural society, they can mean different things to different people. We should be sensitive to that, and wise in our use of them. But within this society that we live in, there is no clear-cut boundary between how "the world" dresses and how followers of Christ dress. Are you also suggesting that it somehow more godly to wear a suit, like worldly white collar criminals and mafia members than to wear jeans and a t-shirt, like some common criminal might? What about all of the decent people who wear both styles? Did Jesus walk around in dockers in a polo shirt? There are so many generational and even regional differences, that it is impossible for anyone to make a generalized statement here, apart from one's specific context. Sorry, but clothing and appearance IS relative. Even amongst conservative, Bible believing Christians, styles have changed. We no longer wear black suits and ruffled collars like the Puritans. Women don't wear dresses w/hoop skirt. Both styles would seem extravagant today, but were quite bourgeois and appropriate among Christians then.
Yes, symbols are powerful, yes, God uses them all the time (though I would argue that they don't "create" reality--a symbol, by definition, is a sign that represents a reality), and yes, they have differing uses, depending on context (as in the Biblical examples you gave). And so, yes, symbols DO change their meaning over time. Not quickly, but they do change. You yourself acknowledged that the swastika was not invented by the Nazis. It was a common symbol found in many cultures, from Native American to various Asian ones, and it usually symbolized the 4 directions, peace/harmony, etc. I don't know why they Nazis adopted it as their own, but they violently changed it's association in the minds of most men. So, yes, if you wore a tie w/it on in your setting, that would be a major issue. But I can't say that 200 years from now that would still be the case. Even with skulls, etc., they have become quite innocuous over the past decade or so. Christians have used that symbol over the centuries, yes, symbolizing death, but not always in a bad way. Later Puritans in America would often be given "funeral rings" as a gift when they attended a funeral, to wear as a reminder of their own mortality. These rings usually had a skull on them.
And as far as "facial piercings" go, nose rings were a common adornment in Biblical times, as they continue to be in many cultures around the world. English men in the renaissance often wore earrings, etc. I don't have any tattoos, but my ears are pierced, and no one treats me any differently than when they weren't, and no one considers me any more "worldly" because of it. I wear them simply bec I find them aesthetically appealing. I'm not trying to align myself with the criminal element or the occult.
As for tattoos, I think it depends on context, image, motive, wisdom, etc., etc. Where you live and in your circles, they might be offensive. Where I live and in my circles, tattoos, in and of themselves, are a non-issue. There are stupid tattoos to get, but the idea of a tat isn't stupid. They can indeed serve as very powerful reminders to their wearers of positive and holy things. The devil or the world doesn't have the copyright on tattooing--it is an artform whose rightness depends on its use, like any other form of expression or applied symbolism.

"tattooing and piercing are still equated with criminals and the lower class."
The lower class, really? Jesus associated himself with the lower class all the time. As the apostle James reminds us:

" 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have insulted the poor. Is it not the rich who are exploiting you? Are they not the ones who are dragging you into court? 7 Are they not the ones who are slandering the noble name of him to whom you belong?
8 If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, 'Love your neighbor as yourself,' you are doing right. 9 But if you show favoritism, you sin and are convicted by the law as lawbreakers. "

Equating the "lower class" with sinfulness and stereotyping them as a bunch of criminals goes against God's view of them as revealed in Scripture. Jesus breaks down the barriers of social caste. :-)

APStyle7| 8.30.10 @ 4:21PM

DE Williams, I'm assuming you are attempting to abide by the 613 Levitical Laws. For example, do you get your hair trimmed, including the hair around your temples, even though this is expressly forbidden (and punishible by death)by Lev. 19:27?
I assume you are Christian, as you quote the New Test. I wonder where the new covenant with Christ fits in with your line of thinking. It seems to me, those tattooed pierced souls, if they have accepted Christ, have formed a new covenant with Him, rendering the old covenant nul. You portend to know their relationship with Christ because of what is on their skin or t-shirt? Let not ye judge.

Chris| 8.26.10 @ 5:25PM

True, but even without tattoos, their skin will be lumpy, bumpy, and saggy. I don't think physical appearance will be their top concern in the retirement home anyway. But even if it looks like crap by then, each tattoo tells a story. Think of the WWII Navy vet who has a faded anchor on his arm. An anchor that 3 of his buddies in the war share. 2 of whom died in battle. That anchor is the emblem of those bittersweet memories, and it opens the door to share that important story when his grandchild asks what it is. Not every tattoo is that significant, and there are some stupid ones for sure, for those who get them to try to be trendy, but many are more significant than that. And making mistakes (like that tramp stamp) is a story/lesson to share, too!

Mr. Elitist| 8.26.10 @ 6:09PM

I'm an elitest, and I detest everything the tattooed, pierced lowbrows value.

I do not have a television; I prefer to read, and I am particularly fond of 18th and 19th century literature--mostly European.

The tattooed generations prefer to watch TV and play video games. This is why they are so cuturally illiterate. Way too dumb for my taste.

I listen to chamber music, opera, and other classical forms. In fact, at this moment I am listening to Chopin's etudes.

I know I am a dying breed, but I will never yield to the stupid vulgarity of contemporary popular culture, the culture of the tattooed monrons and the new Christian rock congregants, of which Pastor Chris seems to be a member.

Elitists! Wish there were more of them!

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 6:26PM

At some point it will come full circle at which point I will be a multi-millionaire because I am this close to perfecting a 100 percent reversal tattoo removing system!

What of it? | 8.26.10 @ 7:56PM

LOL! Oh-the-Horror

The sight of a deformed, faded tramp stamp on a Septuagenarian will be worth a few laughs...or night tremors depending on the person.

Ned the Red| 8.26.10 @ 9:14AM

The style originates because the saggers are too imbecilic to pull down two articles of clothing before taking a dump. When their Mommies dress them they have to leave the outside layer pulled down in preparation for a possible bowel movement so the inside or second layer doesn't get soiled.

Martin Owens| 8.26.10 @ 9:14AM

If jail is the source of fashion inspiration-
well, jail's where people got hanged.
Let's see if we can get 'em to wear ropes
around their necks.

Bydand76| 8.26.10 @ 9:38AM

Just an opinion here,

What I find just as absurd as the saggy pant trend is the mopey faced, forever depressed, anorexic, pimple ridden, EMO nerd who feels its ok to wear the skin tight pants with over-sized skater shoes and cannot cut their hair to save thier life!

I think it must be all of the suburban complaint rock they listen to.

Pro Libertate!

Cervantes| 8.26.10 @ 3:35PM

LOL @ Bydand
"suburban complaint rock"
That is hilarious!
Would you be thinking of Radiohead per chance

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 4:33PM

suburban complain rock should be a new sub genre. I'm guessing Nirvana would be a the top 'o the list, followed by the Cure, Psychedelic furs, and Radiohead...

...to all you EMO's out there, let uncle Ted (Nugent) cure what ails ya. Heh, Heh.

Lawler Nicoteri| 8.26.10 @ 9:40AM

Exposing one's buttocks seems like an open invitation to "KICK ME" Perhaps a few well aimed kicks would prompt these idiots to pull up their pants.

Campy| 8.26.10 @ 10:56AM

Word is in the prison population it's an open invitation, alright. Wonder if kids realize of what sort?

wbheff| 8.26.10 @ 9:50AM

Look up a story by science fiction writer C.M. Kornbluth entitled "The Marching Morons." You may find it scary.

DanO| 8.26.10 @ 1:34PM

Marching Morons is the end result of the watered-down "education" currently being LIBERALLY applied to our children. I think the first rocket to Venus's resort community should include most of our current legislators.

Stoddard| 8.26.10 @ 2:51PM

De-evolution is real.

Humphrey Dumfries| 8.26.10 @ 4:09PM

The Marching Morons:
http://www.wattpad.com/111513-.....-kornbluth

Walter| 8.26.10 @ 4:32PM

One of the most memorable stories I ever read in the Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction, must be close to 50 years ago now. Great story. Should be resurrected.

"gunner"| 8.26.10 @ 6:59PM

@ wbheff,
lndeed, i remember that story, and think of it often these days, along with another whose title and author i do not remember, that was printed back in the campbell era in "astounding/analog" magazine, it described a society where illiteracy was the norm, schools were run like prisons, and society was maintained by a class of "literates" popularly scorned by the masses. to my surprise and digust we're almost there in my lifetime with the "progressives" leading the charge into anarchy.

LarryK| 8.26.10 @ 9:53AM

Interesting take on how, contrary to SciFi expectations, society really is getting stupider all the time. Just finished a book called "The Breaking Point" which is, among many other things, about how the Spanish Civil War in 1936-38 helped re-ignite the literary career of Ernest Hemingway but had a devastating impact on the creativity of John dos Passos. Which means that in the 1930s, people used to read the novels of serious, challenging authors like Hemingway and dos Passos for enjoyment. Now, if anyone reads novels at all, it is Dan Brown or the execrable Steig Larsson "The Girl" trilogy - badly written and guaranteed to leave you more stupid when you put the book down. Living with others' bad choices - it's the downside of freedom.

JimH| 8.26.10 @ 1:29PM

Just remember Ted Sturgeon's law: '90% of everything is crap'. There was plenty of junk lit back then. It's just that we remember some of the good stuff still.

FastJohnny| 8.26.10 @ 10:08AM

The 'sagsters' are kids, pure and simple. Teen angst and rebellion is nothing new: ducktails, greasers and the white tee shirt with cigs rolled in the shirt were the same manifestation, only decades before. The problem is that the present generation of angry, rebellous teens came from parents that were all about themselves. That could explain why this phenomenon is dying hard. Society lets them be more immature for a longer period of time because of 'sagging' morals and the confusion of liberty and license. We all had friends, peers or even ourselves that were like this when we were growing up. In my generation it was big hair, punk and new wave looks, etc.... We had muscle cars, they have drifter cars, the big difference is that we tended to grow out of it once we realized that high school was over and we were going to have to eventually grow up, get a job and make our own way in society. This generation is less pressed to grow up, find work and act like adults, so the hanging on of the idiotic fashion is understandable.

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 10:43AM

I'm sick and tired of the youth-rebellion-as-a-right of-passage argument.

Yes, youth rebellion is part of human nature (the degree to which is questionable) but for each passing generation it's impact on society seems to increase exponentially.

In the past, YB was short-lived with little impact on society in general. It's not unusual today for this mindset to carry well into one's thirties, even fourties. This is a separation from the past.

Adults do not help by constantly looking for excuses for this behavior, or, they don't want to "throw stones" because of their own youthful indiscretions. A sign that these "adults" have not grown up either because being one requires placing proper demands/expectations on youth.

Padoux| 8.26.10 @ 10:18AM

I was at a McDonalds once and a middle aged woman told a "Bro" to pull up his pants, he complied without comment. My wife and I have the compelling urge to walk up to these "dudes" and yank their pants all the way down and be done with it. These guys walk around with one hand holding their pants up, real cool. My theory is that think somehow that their genitals are unique and want to draw attention to them as if possessing said equipment is somehow special and awe inspiring. What a hoot!

wodiej| 8.26.10 @ 11:28AM

omg...LMAO.

Petronius| 8.26.10 @ 10:29AM

Are we having fun this day? A lady who was vacationing in London went running in Hyde Park one morning. And after completing most of the circuit, coming into Knightsbridge, decided to take five and drop into Harrods. The doorman refused her entry as she was in athletic attire; (not at all suitable for conducting business in such an establishment). She wasn't pleased of course. But their dress code is, no shorts. So how does Harrods get away with discriminating in this litigious age of ours? Maybe because there is no National Association for the Advancement of Affluent Tourists. But therein lies the problem. Anybody can discriminate and maintain standards of any kind if they have the bucks. It's only the middle and working class people who cannot accumulate enough wealth to insulate ourselves from the trash, and must put up with them until they begin to draw flies: (except inside libraries in New Jersey). The infernal Civil Rights laws are the instrument the Left utilizes to inflict misery upon us in their campaign if institutionalized abuse. Our right to freely associate or Not was taken from us on behalf of the uncivilized by intellectual snobs who detest our existence. And they did it not because we aspire to be in their clique, but, because we don't.

uncle curmudgeon| 8.26.10 @ 11:05AM

So let's see if I understand. The principals in this enterprise think that while in prison it is smart to pull down your pants. Meanwhile, over at UC Berkeley, nit-wits can make a good living professing on the subject. Can people be too stupid for Liberalism? No way.

molonlabe28| 8.26.10 @ 11:27AM

Our culture has been dumbed down to the lowest common societal denominator.

I wouldn't hire a person with a tatoo.

The ex-con/convicted felon look doesn't appeal to my Southern tastes.

Men should look and act like men and women like ladies.

wodiej| 8.26.10 @ 11:31AM

I agree. Many other companies will not hire people w nose rings etc. We have a job fair in town one day and you wouldn't believe all the yahoo's in line w baggy pants on.

Bydand76| 8.26.10 @ 12:35PM

Molon Labe 28

So you would'nt hire a soldier who has a tattoo of his unit or something similar?

It is no big deal I am just curious is all.

( Yes, I am "inked" multiple times, although you cannot see them when I wear a long sleeve shirt, and they are very tastfully done.)

Pro Libertate!

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 2:37PM

I'm sure there many reasons for getting "inked". I don't participate but the psychology behind the whole body modification trend is interesting.

If you don't mind sharing, your thoughts on why someone would do such a thing?

Bydand76| 8.26.10 @ 3:20PM

WTF Guy, no problem.

I have my childrens names tatto'ed on me as they are important to me and I wanted them to be with me at all times both spiritually,mentally, and physically.

I got some of my ink to honor my military past. Some of my tattoo's are images of my unit insignia with the units name and exploits. (where we have been)

I also have several tattoo's that pertain to my Scottish/Irish heritage. Mostly Celtic Knot and Gaelic words and images.
(Goes great with the Kilt and my wife thinks they look cool too! Ha ha)

I am planning on getting more as well. I don't know why but they are highly addicting.

The majority of people I know all have "ink"and they are some pretty conservative folks too.
I guess its just a personal choice really but I like tattoo's and I dont think there is anything wrong with them . As long as they are tasteful and done with an eye for the art. I guess that make me a ink snob?

I cant stand the whole tribal, skull & crossbones, naked lady popular tattoo's that are out there but if that's your cup of tea. Whatever.

I will say that the whole piercing thing is just a little to much for me. My ear lobes are big enough thanks and I dont need any other extra holes in me anywhere that they are not supposed to be.

I guess that is all I really know about it WTF. Hope that helps?

Pro Libertate!

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 11:27AM

Several months ago while shopping at my neighborhood grocery store I witnessed a middle-aged hispanic woman pushing a grocery cart barefooted. I politely approached and advised her of the health-related issues of doing so. As expected, she became confrontational, yelling at me in her native tongue, and it quickly turned into a full-blown scene. Fortunately, management got involved to half-heartedly enforced their own rules of dress.

During this event and as the dirty looks ensued, I got the sense other people in the store viewed me as the bad guy because I was going after one in the protected class. I anticipated as much when I approached this person.

Being one of the dwindling few who enforces basic standards of society can be lonely

Padoux| 8.26.10 @ 11:41AM

Way to go!

Albert| 8.26.10 @ 11:47AM

Miss Alabama is remiss in her studies of music genres. Most "saggers" do not listen to "heavy metal" music, but rather "hip hop" and "rap" seem to dominate the "musical" tastes of this sub class of human (e.g. "saggers"). Also, there is a certain cartoonishness associated with this "fashion statement." Look at the image. Sagging pants mean a low beltline (usually at the upper thighs) and then wearing an extra long, double extra large t-shirt puts the separation between shirt and pant even lower. The image is one of a very long torso and extremely short legs. This mimics male characters in modern cartoons as seen on Disney Channel, Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon, etc... And it is juxtaposed to the female charaters who sport long legs and short, shapely torsos. These images are accompanied by charaterizations of stupid, idiotic, bumbling males, and their intelligent, supra-competent female counterparts (there is another essay in that issue alone!) The sagging fashion seems to reflect a mindset that wishes to display utter stupidity and a readiness to resort to unprovoked violence, along with a brazen hostility to intelligence and education. I for one have never understood how a man would want to advertise to the World that he is so stupid that he doesn't even know enough to pull up his own pants, and why male children would want to emulate this boastful display.

JimH| 8.26.10 @ 1:31PM

Johnny Bravo is my role model.

MBD| 8.26.10 @ 11:47AM

While I am not familiar with other prison systems, in Florida the DOC has not allowed baggy or loose fitting trousers . I am somewhat dubious of the claim that this style arose in prisons. In any event, society now seems to be heading through a transition phase in male youth apparel and an opposite fashion statement would appear to be gaining ground. It may be debatable as to which is worse - I am reminded of Dr. Johnson's comment as to the apportionment of the degree of iniquity between Voltaire and Rousseau...

JimH| 8.26.10 @ 1:48PM

I said jail not prison. When they book you they take away your belt and shoelaces. Remember the untied sneaker fad a while back.

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 1:57PM

Don't forget gastly white socks/sandals combo!...very county jail-ish.

Petronius| 8.26.10 @ 4:40PM

Sheriff Joe Arppayo hasn't the time to read Voltaire, but the inmates he locks up hate those pink jump suits they must wear.

YTK| 8.26.10 @ 1:06PM

WTF Guy-- next time just wait until someone runs over her tootsies with a shopping cart.

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 1:54PM

I'm sorry about your four broken toes senorita but this darn cart must have a mind of it's own.

YoungTurk| 8.26.10 @ 1:21PM

I can feel a rousing chorus of "Kids" coming on in a moment...

But might I suggest an alternative? The Sex Pistols, "God Save The Queen":

We're the future
Your future

Signed,

A 21-year-old (who wears a belt)

mimi| 8.26.10 @ 1:24PM

Thanks to all for several minutes of hilarity! ...intelligently written and without vulgarity/obscenity. It was enlightening and nice to know I am not alone in my utter disgust at the absolute degradation of 'the culture'.

P. Aaron| 8.26.10 @ 2:21PM

I blame all this on 'Casual Friday'.

MTB| 8.26.10 @ 3:06PM

I wish I could tell the saggers how stupid they look, because they do. It is not cool, it is not fashionable, it isn't protest or rebellion. It is pure, unadulterated stupidity.

swampsniper| 8.26.10 @ 3:24PM

"Urban street culture"?

"I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health and the liberties of man. True, they nourish some of the elegant arts; but the useful ones can thrive elsewhere; and less perfection in the others, with more health, virtue and freedom, would be my choice."

Thomas Jefferson

Petronius| 8.26.10 @ 4:43PM

Is there a Pol Pot Lite in the house?

kscarlett| 8.26.10 @ 3:24PM

I just can't get mad about the pants "situation" although it makes me snicker every time I see a young man in that configuration (and I see them in groups, daily)! I have this fantasy of coming up behind one of them, "pants'ing" them (which would seem to be incredibly easy) and just standing back a few few away - they can't chase me - too funny!!

gene hauber| 8.26.10 @ 3:31PM

Here's a plan.....
Next time you see "a vegetable"walking around with the above mentioned condition, simply put a foot on the middle portion of his pants and push them to his ankles. Then shove him over so he falls to the floor.

Then as he is looking much more stupid than he had planned, offer your excuse that you merely bumped into him and move on.........if you feel really confident, you could be laughing your ass off while you go.

kscarlett| 8.26.10 @ 4:34PM

Hilarious!!and a great plan. Might just have to mull that one over...hmmm. I would have to make sure I was close to one of the MTA cops at the time.

WTF Guy| 8.26.10 @ 5:10PM

Great plan but proper execution would require one to make contact with said vegetable.

Redstateboy| 8.26.10 @ 4:59PM

40% Unemployment for Blacks 18-24 ???
21% Unemployment for 18-24 Nationally??

Naaaa..... No connection.

Redstateboy| 8.26.10 @ 5:04PM

How funny - yet tragic - these clowns are... (Black or White) the Pierced Noses, Eyes, Guys with Hooped Ear-lobes, Tat's Everywhere, pants down around your Ass and....... "It just ain't riight I's can'tz find No job" and...... what Party, if they can stumble their way down to a voting booth, are they more than likely to vote for????

"gunner"| 8.26.10 @ 7:24PM

funny thing, some years ago i interviewed for a job, the last before i retired. i turned up wearing a blaser and slacks and a tie, my life long "police record" of no arrests, no charges and no convictons got me the pistol permit that was a condition of employment along with the "clean cut" appearance i presented got me into the job, along with a bunch of other white guys, black and hispanic guys and even one legal pakistani immigrant. "can'tz find no job"? try coming in looking straight up and squared away, ready to do the job, whatever it may be.

"gunner"| 8.26.10 @ 7:36PM

add: some years earlier that "clean cut" appearance convinced my wife, whom i met on a blind date, that i was the one she had been looking for. that was 44 years ago, and i'm still her "one" and several of my younger female friends have said they envy her, but they're honest ladies and do not poach.

Felix| 8.26.10 @ 5:13PM

The fact is, these people do not understand what is ugly and what is beautiful because they do not understand objective truth. Add that to the fact that laziness and contempt for one's fellow man is what is driving the lowest common denominator in apparel fashions.

Ephraem| 8.26.10 @ 5:24PM

I blame the purveyors of apparel. They make clothes for either gorillas or dwarves or tiny Asian people. Clearly Capitalism is to blame.

Michele San Pietro| 8.26.10 @ 5:35PM

To me, liberal stupidity is to blame, not capitalism.

Suited Up ( in context)| 8.26.10 @ 7:01PM

The modern version of the Business suit is somehting I often ponder -

It really looks rediculous!

Someone need wear a undershirt, a button down shirt a vest and a suit coat - let us not forget the tie.

Consider cufflinks and the ( forget what it is called ) link that keeps the tie tidy at chest level and , on occasion at the collar.

This is because someone deemed it to be the right or required attire... now it is considered classy or a mandate.

How naive.

BTW, yes I can look very good in a suit.

Remember Howard Huges, he 'always dressed nice', right? lol

Jason| 8.26.10 @ 9:02PM

The pants thing annoys the heck out of me too, but I suppose it slows down punks when they run from the cops.

albert consttantine, jr.| 8.26.10 @ 9:11PM

I believe an American Idol contestant known as "General" summarized it all quite succinctly with "Pants on the Ground, Pants on the Ground; Lookin' like a Fool with your Pants on the Ground".

bob| 8.26.10 @ 11:26PM

ask that store owner if he bans girls who walk in with their tits hanging out of way too small tops

Rich Rostrom| 8.27.10 @ 2:37AM

"The trouble with sci-fi authors is most assumed Homo sapiens would continue to evolve intellectually when all the evidence points in the opposite direction. As far as I can tell, the only writer who has gotten it right is Mike Judge."

Mr. Orlet should look up the 1951 short story "The Marching Morons" by C. M. Kornbluth, one of the giants of science fiction's Silver Age (the 1950s).

Kornbluth's mordant vision of the result of a few centuries of sustained dysgenic reproduction is bleakly hilarious.

Otis R. Needleman| 8.27.10 @ 10:51PM

Much ado about little. First, the store can always post a sign saying, "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". Second, I merely ignore the kids who are "sagging" or wearing tattoos, even though I don't care for either one. Remember, quite a few young men who may be "sagging" today will be fighting for us tomorrow.

Susie| 10.5.10 @ 11:59AM

It's not the style at all that bothers me, although it is pretty ugly.
I just don't want to get anywhere near any male person whose butt is hanging out. I always wonder when the last time that guy showered or, if his underwear are clean, or if he um, ya know, is tidy when he "enjoys the go". Why do I think of that? Because there it is, right out there in full view.
Wear whatever you want, but in the meanwhile, please wash that thing and keep it away from me!
♥