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A Further Perspective
The Mosque
This will be short and to the point.
This will be short and to the point. Of course there should be no mosque built in New York City near the site we call simply Ground Zero — the place where once stood two towering buildings filled with life and people and commerce. All disappeared at the hands of some fanatically driven Muslims nine years ago and now it’s just an empty place called Ground Zero. And — incredibly — some think it would be a good idea to build a mosque and an Islamic community center very close by. A mosque, of course, is a place of worship exclusively for members of the very religion in whose name the twin towers were attacked and the people massacred. To most of us this is unthinkable.
Some have called the effort to build this mosque a local matter. It is no local matter because the events of September 11, 2001 were not local nor meant to be local. When the planes hit their targets they attacked more than the twin towers or New York City — they attacked America. Indeed President Bush — who was visiting a school — was given the news that America was under attack. And all over the country Americans rushed to gather their loved ones to safety because no one knew what else was coming. We were in this together as Americans, and as Americans we care about those who died, we care about their families and friends, and we are united in respect for the places and symbols of that horrible time. The war on terror is America’s war, and Ground Zero is our national wound.
To defenders of the mosque, please don’t bring up religious freedom and tolerance — those are givens in America. Understand instead that this mosque might look suspiciously like a triumphal arch to most of us, and definitely like rubbing salt in a wound. Just think decency, decorum, consideration and respect and don’t build that mosque.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (263) | Leave a comment
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drudge ette obama| 8.24.10 @ 6:30AM
Yup.
vtwin| 8.24.10 @ 8:20AM
“The fact that so much attention has been given the mosque debate, raises the question of just why and driven by whom?” --Ron Paul
“In my opinion it has come from the neo-conservatives who demand continual war in the Middle East and Central Asia and are compelled to constantly justify it.” --Ron Paul
“They never miss a chance to use hatred toward Muslims to rally support for the ill conceived preventative wars.” --Ron Paul
“If Islam is further discredited by making the building of the mosque the issue, then the false justification for our wars in the Middle East will continue to be acceptable.” --Ron Paul
http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-08.....yc-mosque/
ds80| 8.24.10 @ 8:27AM
woop-de-doo. As if the name "Ron Paul" gives unquestioned credibility. He's wrong on this one.
The regular folk in "flyover country" understand this. The sniffy academics and Ruling Class do not.
Really?| 8.24.10 @ 8:55AM
And your point is?
CLC| 8.24.10 @ 8:56AM
Good grief, how many muslims in America have been be-headed since 9/11? Don't lecture us about tolerance.
vtwin| 8.24.10 @ 10:26AM
Tolerance? This has nothing to do with tolerance. This is about the manipulation of the America people, by the religious right and neoconservative Jews, to further the fear and hatred of Muslims and Islamic countries. And if you have to pit one group of American against another or trample on the Constitution so be it. And, to what end? To get Americans to spend American treasure and lives fighting Israel’s Wars.
Bruce Berger| 8.24.10 @ 10:35AM
vtwin,
Also enfranchised in the Constitution is the right to have one's voice heard. Throughout this great country's history, people have made their voices heard to persuade others to take a different course of action. Few people I have read regarding this issue dispute the Imam's right to build a mosque at the proposed site. Instead, most people are trying to use moral persuasion to get him to build it elsewhere. What in the world is wrong with that?
Jwoo| 8.26.10 @ 2:20PM
Nothing is wrong with it. In fact that's my exact response to people (usually conservatives, not always) who use the argument "Most of the country sees things my way," even though they can't ever truly support a claim like that with hard facts (read: poll results are not hard facts).
I don't feel particularly strongly about the community center (there is no new mosque being built, the mosque has already been there for decades) being built where they want it. And I'd wager everything I have that the MAJORITY of Americans give as little or less of a crap than I do. What I want to know is why you guys are focusing so much energy on a subject that is going to be forgotten two weeks after the center gets approved anyway.
And I get the mentality that doesn't want the thing built. It tells the terrorists that they "win" or something. But you want to know what our REAL statement about American freedom should be? Build your community center or your mosque wherever the Hell you want! Your radicals attacked us and we aren't going to let it change a damn thing about what we offer to ANY and ALL cultures that want to call America home.
This distrust in other Americans who happen to belong to a minority religion is the real terrorist victory, because it compromises the ideals of freedom this country was founded on. I understand it's a touchy subject. The planners of this community center could back down in the name of not causing a stir. Or they could do something that sends a REAL message to the outside world. America truly is free.
Doug| 8.26.10 @ 9:27PM
You are dead wrong pal! Read the US Constitution. It doesn't say anything about allowing America's enemies to take over any part of American land. We should defend and protect our country. Unfortunately, it was Muslims who attacked our country, even though those who attacked us are considered to be terrorists. Muslims will have blood on their hands if that center is build, I guarantee it. Don't misunderstand me. I love Muslims because they are children of God like the rest of us. It is sad that innocent, peaceful Muslims are being used by their brother terrorists to build a center that will be a monument honoring those terrorists who attacked America. No way, not on American soil. Wake-up Muslims, you are being used by your terrorist brothers. That center should not be built. If it is, it should be burned down just like the World Trade Center was on 9/11. Americans cherish freedom of religion. Americans will not allow that freedom to be abused to honor terrorists.
Anthony| 8.24.10 @ 11:02AM
It wasn't yarmulke wearing yeshiva students or crucifix wearing seminary students who brutally murdered thousands of civilians on 9/11. I think moderate Muslims should understand the feelings of two-thirds of the American public and if Ron Paul doesn't, he doesn't get our votes.
vtwin| 8.24.10 @ 11:51AM
True, but as Jeremiah Wright has eloquently put it, “we have supported state terrorism against the Palestinians…America’s chickens are coming home to roost.”
RacerJim| 8.24.10 @ 12:36PM
Given today's polls/surveys I'd say Jeremiah Wright's words are coming back to haunt him and, moreover, Barack HUSSEIN Obama. :-)
vtwin| 8.24.10 @ 12:59PM
Really, President Barack Obama received 66,882,230 votes, more than any other presidential candidate in history. And, that was after FOX Noise’s “media lynching” of Reverend Jeremiah Wright.
JmsA| 8.24.10 @ 3:29PM
vitwin,
Given the immense failure this administration and the democrats as a whole are proving themselves to be, it appears that the electoral figure you cited only demonstrates that many folks left their brains at home as they headed out to the polls in an exercise of collective stupidity. This is hardly anything to brag about.
On the other hand, per the 1980 Census, the U.S. population was 203, 000, 000. That same year, 1980, Ronald Reagan won in landslide with 50.7% percent of the vote, with translates into roughly 43, 000, 000 voters and 489 electoral votes. Obama won 52.9% of the vote from a population at least 100, 000,000 greater than that in 1980, with 365 electoral votes. By even the most conservative statistical extrapolation (I apologize for bringing up statistics; I know you have problems grasping the concept of its myriad applications, including actuarial Medicare and Social Security projections ), between the results of the two elections, one can easily see that Obama's so called "landslide" cannot compare to Reagan's. That all said, by this stage in his his first term, Reagan's economy, despite the democrat-controlled congress fighting his every proposed tax cuts and ec0nomy-enhancing deregulation proposals--was beginning to turn the corner. Can you actually say the same about the One's lacking performance despite not only commanding majorities in both congressional chambers, a $787 billion stimulus(and the promise thereof the unemployment rate would not rise above 8%), and the so-called "Summer Recovery?" And by the way, before you chime in about what a terrible situation the One inherited, Reagan inherited quite a mess with an antagonistic congress, to boot. Nice try, but like always, your sophomoric comments only serve to highlight your natural inanity.
By the way, today's presidential approval index is at -18%. So I doubt the One would do nearly as well as he did in 2008. See you in 11/02/2010.
Alan Brooks| 8.24.10 @ 4:07PM
"Really, President Barack Obama received 66,882,230 votes, more than any other presidential candidate in history. And, that was after FOX Noise’s “media lynching” of Reverend Jeremiah Wright."
Thank god McCain lost!,
however you shouldn't be naive, Vt. Fools Die; and Brattleboro is crawling with fools. The rest of VT? you tell us.
Jeffrey| 8.24.10 @ 6:05PM
McCain ran away from the Jeremiah Wright and William Ayers & communist mentor stories.
If he'd got done and dirty, he might have won.
gypsy| 8.24.10 @ 6:51PM
yup, keep on sucking your thumb and clinging to that hopey changey blankie. Keep living in the past, while your betters deal with the way things actually are, not as you see them from your perch in cloud cuckoo land
Flit Andersen| 8.24.10 @ 9:07PM
"President Barack Obama received 66,882,230 votes, more than any other presidential candidate in history..."
Yes, well, I guess those "dead" votes really add up, huh? Also got a lot of people named "zvbzvb adf" voting for him, too.
bill h| 8.26.10 @ 1:06PM
Lies, damned lies and statistics. Each election cycle has more voters than the previous one, Nimrod. And, out of those votes, how many were from Ohio... voting twice... or commuting from a neighboring state?
Occam's Tool| 8.24.10 @ 9:35PM
vtwin, you know Ron Paul has connections to StormFront, don't you?
vtwin, explain why you are NOT an antisemite.
Albert| 8.24.10 @ 1:05PM
Jeremiah Wright never said anything "eloquent" in his life. Terrorism is not committed on Palestinians, but BY Palestinians. Again, useless quotes, non-sequiturs, nonsense, no point to make. You sir, are stupid.
Seek| 8.24.10 @ 3:54PM
"State terrorism against the Palestinians" -- also known as Israel defending itself.
Flit Andersen| 8.24.10 @ 9:04PM
What a load of Horse**it! "Terrorism"! It's morons like you who don't understand the difference between that and self-defense who are driving the resurgence of the old Nazi Jew-hatred all over again.
Hey, vt! What's YOUR favorite Jew-joke?
bpp| 8.26.10 @ 1:29PM
funny, I recall Glen Beck saying the same thing.
Anthony| 8.24.10 @ 2:46PM
Anthony, an excellent post, except for the idea Ron Paul would get this Anthony's vote.
Might I suggest you change your moniker slightly to distinguish us apart? I think I was here first.
JmsA| 8.24.10 @ 11:41AM
vitwin,
You know, hijacking planes, crashing them into buildings and murdering thousands of innocents, and Palestinians and others in the Middle East jumping with joy in the streets upon hearing about it the collapsing World Trade Center Towers, is hardly endearing.
Can you tell me what happened in 1948, 1956, 1967, and 1973? In 1948, the Israelis fought off the Arab League forces, including but not limited to Egypt, Sudan, Syria, Yemen, Iraq, after the U.N. voted to make Israel sovereign nation. They obviously won. In 1956, Eqyptian President Nasser's nationalized the Suez Canal, after President Eisenhower withdrew an offer to fund the building of the Aswan Dam. British and French economic interests thus threatened, they allied themselves with the Israelis, whose shipping had been either confiscated or sunk by the Egyptians in contravention of U.N. resolutions for the allowance of free shipping through the canal. French and British, under pressure from the U.S. and the USSR, ultimately relented in their attempts to re-establish control of the canal proper, while the Israelis managed to secure the ability to ship through the Straight of Tiran. In 1967, the Israelis preemptively defeated Egypt, Jordan and Syria in the Six Days War. And in 1973, following a combined surprise attack by the Egyptians and Jordanians, backed by a coalition of Arab countries, including but not limited to Iraq, Lybia, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Algeria, and expeditionary forces from North Korea and Cuba as well as russian piloted war planes--they Israelis counter attacked and emerged victorious, though not without significant losses in men and material. We're not fighting Israel's war. If anything, the U.S. and others have acted at the behest of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, such as in 1991, following the invasion of Kuwait by Saddam Hussein. How about the bombing of Serbia to protect predominantly Muslim Bosnia-Herzegovina? So get your facts straight, lest you continue to make a fool out of yourself, a capacity for which you have previously, amply demonstrated.
PS: Remember statistics are part and parcel of Social Security and Medicare actuarial projections. I just thought you might want to be reminded.
giacamo| 8.24.10 @ 2:19PM
OH Please - Blame the Jews - Zieg Hiel - Adolf. Islam has been exposed for what it is. Read the hadiths of Mohammed. We have been warned by the words of there devil OOPS I mean God. Ignorance I can understand but the truth is there for anyone to read and your obvious refusal to read is what makes you ehat you are. A supporter of America's enemies. There is a reckoning coming and we are starting to see the warning signs. The Tsunami of Indonesia, the Pakistani Floods and the madness of people like you who will on the chopping block once your support is no longer needed by the Soldiers of Allah.
vtwin| 8.24.10 @ 2:46PM
Sure, we’ve never seen tsunami in Indonesia or floods Pakistani before. Must be a sign of the end of days!
rdman| 8.24.10 @ 3:34PM
vtwin = Arrogant Ignorance...
TR| 8.24.10 @ 2:35PM
I read these comments occasionally, and I see comments by vtwin ad nauseum. Do you have a real job vtwin, or are you a professional America hater, sucking off the public welfare? You have an obvious axe to grind against the very nation that gives you a forum to grind that axe. Your anti-semitism is transparent, and your love of anything hatefully radical in opposition to our nation is pathetic. The fact is that the biggest haters are liberals, the most devisive group are liberals, and they are the group that seeks to find any anti-traditional angle they can. Obama may have won by the most vites ever cast (and after watching LIVE videos on election day I saw many people loudly proclaiming they were voting for him as many times as they could, one man in particular that was being interviewed said he had voted three times and was in line to vote again. The interviewer said "I think that's illegal, but OK."
The Manchurian candidate presidents real intentions were hidden by a conspiracy of the left-stream media to get their communist in office. It worked, but he will be bounced in 2012.
Justin| 8.24.10 @ 6:31PM
There is no manipulation going on, just several million raised eyebrows at strange ties and coincidences, and a long documented history of hubris after Muslim conquest.
They should have a right to build the mosque, no question, but they also have an obligation to the community (USA) that afford them that right, to be sensitive and compassionate of it's feelings.
At the very least, they should understand that their persistence in building this mosque is indeed jeopardizing the goal it's supposed to represent. This causes most intelligent folks to question the suggested motives.
Aindyin| 8.24.10 @ 8:55PM
wow so vtwin is another progressive religous bigot what a surprise.
Sam| 8.25.10 @ 2:46PM
It does bother me when we use the word 'tolerance'. Tolerance implies that we don't like them, but we must tolerate or accept them anyway.
When we continue to marginalize an entire segment of America (the Muslims), we hurt and embarrass ourselves. And for conservatives who say that they are an insignificant minority, there are about as many American Muslims as there are members of the NRA.
The words "insensitive, disrespectful, decency," all stem from suspicion, fear, and distrust toward Islam. There is no other way to put it. Despite many mosque opponents saying that they don't blame all Muslims for 9/11, their actions speak much louder.
Rocky| 8.26.10 @ 1:10PM
Hmm, if actions speak louder than words...then what does it say when Liberal-Progressives insist this Mosque should be built despite the opposition of 70% of the country. It says the same thing as when they crammed ObamaCare through. They think they know better than the rest of us...What does it say when Liberal-Progresseives start the name calling...racist, bigot, homophobe, xenophobe, Islamaphobe...It says they can't make a case without demonizing the opposition...like you just did. One thing Obama is right about...elections have consequences and an election is coming.
Sam| 8.26.10 @ 2:54PM
Bad news, Rocky. I did not and still do not support Obamacare, and I resent their use of the term racist since it is only for political points.
I am not calling you evil because you are fearful and suspicious of Islam. As your polls state, you aren't the only one. You have simply been misled by a media that floods us all with stories about Iraq, Iran, suicide bombers, and Muslim extremists. In short, you're letting your emotions cloud you're thinking- something that the liberals routinely do (see unemployment benefits, obamacare, gun restrictions here in CA)
As a result, they will lose seats in Congress. I expect better from someone who calls him/herself a conservative. Do not let fear of what you don't know or understand cloud your thinking.
Rocky| 8.26.10 @ 1:04PM
Yeah, the religious right has managed to manipulate 70% of the country into agreeing with them. That's called a majority. I find it laughable that Liberal Progressives are only interested in defending religious freedom when it sticks it inthe eye of ...'the religious right'. Hyocrites!
Martin Gray| 8.26.10 @ 1:26PM
I hadn't realized that opposition to an Islamic mosque at ground zero was in some way related to fighting Israel's wars. If I recall correctly, the attack on the World Trade Center on 9/11, was an attack by muslims against an American icon intended to damage the economic infrastructure of the United States just as PearlHarbor was intended to pre-empt America from resisting Japanese conquest of China and the Pacific littoral. Putting up an Islamic center two blocks from ground zero is a provocation that should be met with whatever resistance is available to Americans. If our government officials like Bloomberg and Obama won't stand up to Imam Rauf and his ilk, I assure you there are still plenty of us who will.
Mark James| 8.24.10 @ 12:38PM
The arguments of religious freedom or freedom of speech are not supported by the Constitution in this case because you give up both when you foment or suborn the taking of another's Constitutional rights. Islam suborns and preaches the taking of lives, subjugation of women and racial and religious hatred. It has no rights under the Constitution as a result.
Margie| 8.24.10 @ 1:45PM
Thank you, and Amen to that.
Sam| 8.25.10 @ 2:48PM
Margie, you have shown in the past your ability to accurately quote the Bible. Now let's see you accurately quote the Koran to back up Mark James' statement, which you support. Can you do it?
Margie| 8.25.10 @ 7:20PM
Sam,
So now according to thou I have an ability to accurately quote the Bible! Well, thank you for saying so.
As to the Koran, It is, just like the Bible, available to anyone who wants to read it. If you want to defend Islam, I put the oness upon you to do so.
Okeedokee?
SpiralArchitect| 8.24.10 @ 1:46PM
Exactly.
This need not be an issue of anything except what is moral and ethical ( read: respect).
This is where the discussion was hatched.
Gigi0102 | 8.27.10 @ 1:31AM
Good point, Mark. A muslim-American filmmaker and journalist, Jehan Harney, was on the radio Wednesday night, debating with David Horowitz over the mosque at Ground Zero. When questioned about muslim intolerance of ANY OTHER RELIGION in muslim nations, she said, "Well, it's their country."
Had to laugh. She seemed absolutely numb to the irony and hypocrisy of this statement. The tolerance goes one way -- the USA is open to them; they fire missiles at us... and worse.
If muslims put a premium on tolerance and want to foster open communication, they could get the ball rolling in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc. etc., where they have legitimate authority to do so. Then maybe I'll believe them.
Jeffrey| 8.24.10 @ 6:03PM
The answer to your question is: 1.
Muzzammil Hassan, A Prominent Orchard Park Muslim Businessman Charged with Beheading his Wife Aasiya Z. Hassan.
oh ... you meant by non-muslims? well then, nevermind.
Quartermaster| 8.24.10 @ 7:04PM
Actually, one Muslim has been beheaded since 9/11. She was beheaded by her husband, who also happened to be a Muslim. I guess a divorce lawyer was too expensive for him.
Dave | 8.26.10 @ 1:08PM
According to Muslim law, all he had to do was say, "I have divorced you." After a waiting period the divorce is final. If he takes it back before the end of the waiting period then they are still married, UNLESS, it is the third divorce. If he has divorced her twice but taken it back the third divorce is final immediately with no waiting period. Therefore, the beheading was gratuitous.
Sam Vaughn| 8.24.10 @ 9:15AM
vtwin, you're like the buzzing noise of mosquitoes on a summer night on a remote Minnesota Lake. Annoying, irritating, but ultimately ignored as the background noise many on the left have become. It used to be that I would listen in my ignorance to the exhortations of the left to "improve" my life. It finally occured to me I'm not rich, I cherish my values and people like you have no tolerance for those of us who "cling" to our traditions. In fact I've come to believe that if people like you had absolute power you pack the rest of us off to "re-education camps", insane asylums or simply line the uncooperative up against a wall and ...... People like you no longer have the power to persuade those of us who go to work everyday and behave with professionalism and responsibility. Perhaps that's why you and the left is so mad, you've been relegated to the ignorable.....
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 9:23AM
While Dr.Ron Paul is a fine man , opinions are like fannies . Everybody got one .
Even The Mother Of All Fannies , Vtwin Hog Pork got one here .
Ya wanna short stop The Mosqueteers , follow The Mosque supporters and their Money Trail and research Sufi Iman Dude Rauf's history and affiliations .
Glenn Beck , Rush Limbaugh , Sean Hannity , Michelle Malkin , Ann Coulter , Mark Levin are already doing their homework .
vtwin| 8.24.10 @ 7:05PM
John Stewart traced the funding of the Ground Zero Mosque to FOX News co-owner Saudi Prince Alwaleed bin Talal
http://media.mtvnservices.com/.....com:351494
Waco Kid| 8.24.10 @ 9:29AM
You are beyond reproach. Your smugness and use of quotes from a known whack-job do not defend your position. Your posting here and on other threads shows that you are but a pebble in my shoe, an irritant that must be removed and discarded. Piss off.
Maddox| 8.24.10 @ 9:43AM
vtwin, unlike liberals, we do no fall in line with someone who may share our political opinions.
We are not sheep, we think for ourselves and have principles than guide our decisions in taking personal responsibility for our lives.
JmsA| 8.24.10 @ 11:02AM
vitwin,
How telling you cannot come up with an original argument against the opposition to the mosque.
Did you Ron Paul explain to you that actuarial Social Security and Medicare projections are based on statistics?
ROBERT | 8.24.10 @ 11:34AM
Ron Paul should be ashamed of himself. He has engaged in the same racist talk as Bloomberg. He will definitely not be our next President. Time for him to resign.
glenny| 8.24.10 @ 11:45AM
vtwin, we all agree with you. Ron Paul is an idiot. Duh !
glenny
Andrew Keirns| 8.24.10 @ 12:34PM
Islamist Fundamentalists love this debate, and hope it gets louder because they want to use it to show how intolerant Americans are of Islam. It feeds their inferiority complex. So the proper response is: let them build this mosque? No, the proper response is (drum roll) the Islamist Fundamentalist needs to get over the victim status mentality.
Unfortunately you can't do this by showing the fundamentalist the number of mosques in America, by reviewing America's committment to the First Amendment. The fundamentalist has chosen to fight what tolerates, so you need to defeat that element wherever it raises its ugliness, including the mosque at Ground Zero. The fundamentalist side defeated (no mosque built at ground zero) helps the muslim who wants no part of hijackers (religions or airplanes).
RonL | 8.25.10 @ 2:29AM
Rauf is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood. (I said Muslim Brotherhood, Ikhwan, founded in the 1920s, not Muslims, the Ummah). The Muslim Brotherhood exists to restore the Caliphate, reconquer all land that was one Muslim, and then to impose Shariah on the world. Their moto is “Allah is our objective; the Koran is our constitution, the Prophet is our leader; Jihad is our way; and death for the sake of Allah is the ideal”.
Rauf is a fundamentalist who share the goals, if not the means of Bin Laden. But even that goes to far. Al Qaeda was founded by Muslim Brotherhood members. This is Menshevism compared to the Bolshevism of Bin Laden et all.
This is a game of Dawa and symbolism over open Jihad. Either we submit to a Muslim Victory monument and mosque built over a building damaged on 9/11 and thus show our weakness encouraging future Jihad, or we anger the Jihadis now.
I refuse to allow the ignorant to tell me to bow.
Alan Brooks| 8.24.10 @ 3:43PM
Ron Paul is a fringie, Vtwin. I used to live in Vermont, in Brattleboro-- as good as it gets outside of Copenhagen or Zurich.
But the residents think socialism is real!
Vtwin:
Socialism is a game; a serious game-- but nothing but a game.
vtwin| 8.24.10 @ 5:29PM
It’s pronounced V-twin not VT-win.
stmichrick| 8.25.10 @ 12:06AM
Proof that Ron Paul will never be elected President.
Gigi0102 | 8.27.10 @ 1:45AM
vtwin -- Don't mean to get personal, but for a long time I was a "Big L" Libertarian and was even a state chair for a time. Not anymore. Libertarians, including Ron Paul, have taken on an extremely pollyanna-ish, utopian slant. What I most appreciated in libertarian philosophy was its "Utopia is not an option" basis in the real world. The actual political philosophy -- not the party -- is constructed on looking at and assessing facts, and is nobody's daydream of "the way things should be." But it's been perverted, I sometimes believe even hijacked, by fallen-away liberals or starry-eyed idealists fresh out of college.
In a perfect Libertarian world, we would all be well-behaved anarchists with no need for government. Here's a tip, though: Ain't gonna happen. There are now and probably always will be evil and ruthless people who will kill to gain some delusion of power over others. They range from serial rapists to heads of state. That's not going to change. Deal with it.
Erin| 8.25.10 @ 4:01PM
Are you serious?? Ron Paul is blaming the "neo-conservatives" for the mosque criticism, the continuation of the wars, "hatred" towards Muslems??? HE sounds more like pseudo-liberal disguised as a democrat. Sad. And STUPID and totally SHORT-SIGHTED. Did Obama hack into his web site or something?? Saying the Mosque, Muslems, OUR TROOPS PROTECTING AMERICA are something created by misled "neo-conservatives" is like homeland "security" placing all TRUE AMERICANS on the "enemy list"!!!!
Margie| 8.25.10 @ 7:26PM
"HE sounds more like pseudo-liberal disguised as a democrat."
Bingo! This is the hue and cry of the Lefty Libertarians. They are paranoid Leftists and disguise themselves as Republicans. R. Paul is a Libertarian who registered Republican in order to get elected. Him & his followers share the same mind. Delusional.
Like Obama, I thank him for opening his mouth for the nation to see. And I hope (and pray) that we will never elect either one ever again.
God bless America and God bless our troops!
Gary| 8.26.10 @ 5:47PM
Muslims traditionally build mosques on site
of places they have defeated.
Steph| 10.22.10 @ 2:07PM
All I can say is Ron Paul is deffinately getting my vote this election. All you people are so prejudiced its sad. If the people who flew the planes were christian would churchs not be able to be built anywhere around ground zero? The mosque isn't even being built on ground zero its a couple of blocks away, so get your crap straight.
martin j smith| 8.24.10 @ 7:05AM
It would be wise to ask oneself this question:, Why is it that the Democrat Socialist Left seems to cozy with with radical Islamists and not only defend their "rights" but in the MSM censure the issues that the public would want to know about them. Things that are said and done that are not too appealing to most Americans. That is what we have. I am proud to say Americans in this instance continue to speak out loudly enough so that even with "ear plugs" the message comes thru. " No Mosque at Ground Zero"
Tomas| 8.24.10 @ 3:49PM
FTA:
"Understand instead that this mosque might look suspiciously like a triumphal arch to most of us,...."
To the Muslim world, this IS a triumphal arch.
Don't kid yourself.
-
Alan Brooks| 8.24.10 @ 4:02PM
Vtwin will realize what kind of a world this is, someday. VT, even though it is mostly Wahhabi and not islam as a whole, it is very bad. Extremely.
IMO, the world wont end, but many will die-- in the Mideast and elsewhere.
Let's hope the number is in the millions, not billions.
KathyP| 8.24.10 @ 7:07AM
These are the same reasons that that crescent design memorial must not be built in Shanksville, Pa as well.
maurice myth| 8.24.10 @ 8:42AM
Precisely so. The San Fran architect behind that open field monstrosity needs to visit a dark alley alone some midnight.
One thing to remember though: that crescent moon is WANING, not waxing.
Cabermon| 8.24.10 @ 11:38AM
I think it's appropriate that we traditionally display the crescent moon over outhouse doors.
Erin| 8.25.10 @ 4:02PM
Cabermom: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!! Excellent point. Is that where it originated??!
Bram| 8.24.10 @ 7:13AM
It is nothing more than a victory monument at the sight of a mass murder. And, like the original Great Mosque of Córdoba, it is built over the ashes of a Christian church - St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church in this case.
TennesseeVolunteer| 8.24.10 @ 7:29AM
You know why I am against it?
Because every liberal who is on TV makes a concerted effort to not call it a mosque. They will call it an athletic center with a prayer room, a community center for all religions etc.
Even The Imam and his ridiiculous wife called it a mosque. When written about by Muslims in other countries, it is always called a mosque. It is obvious the new Journolist memo is telling our media "Knights in White Satin" to use any word but a mosque...the better to fool us my dear.
We ain't buying their load of you know what.
In our collective gut, we know this is wrong. We know that people who truly aim to show friendship and redemption would not force something in the name of reconciliation that is hurtful and instinctually wrong to the very people they mean to help.
Where will the money come from for this mosque and the one in Tennessee? Are you going to tell me that in this economy, 250 families will build a mosque in Tennessee without major financial help from somewhere. No bank in the world is loaning very much money to Church building.
There is no recognized church in the world that would build a huge edifice when there are no congregants there.
Keep asking questions, keep drilling down for the truth. Don't let them accuse you of racism, Islamophobism or being against the Constitution. Church permits are held up all of the time in TN just because of the traffic problems they might cause. I know this because church builders were my major customers until this economy basically shut down almost all church building except the churches who have more than 50% cash for the project.
Don't you think we can take our time and look into this since beheadings are more likely the outcome than traffic problems? They say that Muslim conversions are numerous in our prisons. Are any of these mosques near prisons?
Bob K.| 8.24.10 @ 8:31AM
Thank you very much Mr. McKinnon.
It is gratifying for once to finally see this view put out in a straight forward manner without the mandatory politically correct groveling to the mainstream media and Islamic leaders with the usual "This is not Islamophobia, but..." lead in that we have been getting from too many AS Online writers about this subject!
How encouraging to finally see a writer who does not behave like the underdog in a pack of dogs, rolling over on his back for the alpha dog and exposing his throat to him!
The alpha dogs in Islam understand that gesture!
Seek| 8.24.10 @ 3:58PM
Fine post, but I'm pretty sure McKinnon is a Ms., not a Mr. She heads, or at least until recently headed, the Independent Women's Forum.
Islam will never call off the dogs of war until they are forced to do so.
Bob K.| 8.24.10 @ 6:50PM
Yes you are right. I just saw highlights from Puccini's Opera a week or so ago. I should have made the connection.
hardcard| 8.24.10 @ 8:36AM
r.paul a few good ideas and many more bad .
davelnaf| 8.24.10 @ 8:38AM
You’re asking leftists, PC liberals, and these wannabe GZ mosquers to have an intelligent thought? To be principled? In their worldview they are being principled. What we see as their constant battle against decency and commonsense they see as a fight against the forces of darkness. They will persist in this mosque caper to the bitter end. For these people this mosque already represents more than the sum of its parts.
Stammon| 8.24.10 @ 10:02AM
I believe you are right. I spent a few hours last night on Slate, promoting the idea that even though they have the right to build it, if this Mosque is a bridge to Christians or Americans, it's a very bad idea and insensitive. What I finally got for my troubles were insults and attacks on my intelligence and heritage. One writer insisted that if I believe the Mosque to be insensitive, then I must believe that every Muslim is a terrorist. When I went back and read their previous letters to Slate, I found much vitriol, hatred and narrow minded screaming to anyone who didn't agree with them on anything and everything.
And the Left truly believes it's the Right that hates.
Ned| 8.24.10 @ 10:17AM
Stammon - in the psych classes I've taken, that's called "projection" - you can tell who and what they are by what they accuse us of being and doing. The truly astonishing part about it is that it is so blindingly obvious, and yet they are apparently oblivious.
Stammon| 8.24.10 @ 12:02PM
What they projected unto me was that I stupid and evil and should shut up because I dare to disagree with them.
Stammon| 8.24.10 @ 12:02PM
What they projected unto me was that I stupid and evil and should shut up because I dare to disagree with them.
Margie| 8.25.10 @ 7:28PM
Stammon,
Welcome to the reality of yet another enemy. Sad, but true. But you are among friends, here.
vtwin| 8.24.10 @ 6:27PM
“What I finally got for my troubles were insults and attacks on my intelligence….When I went back and read their previous [comments] I found much vitriol, hatred and narrow minded screaming to anyone who didn't agree with them on anything and everything.”
Stammon,welcome to my world!!!!!!!!!!!
Margie| 8.25.10 @ 7:32PM
Like I said to him~ yes it is the sick cruel world of the Left~ your world. But he is among friends here. You make no difference at all. Anyone with half a mind can see what a liar you are.
Louis Jenkins| 8.24.10 @ 8:50AM
Now that's writing! Straight to the point Mr. McKinnon. We've read all the other stuff by various people, but you've nailed it.
Joe D.| 8.24.10 @ 8:50AM
Hey, vtwin, idiot. Why don't you look at the other side and why they are pushing so hard and want to to rub salt in the open wound that their religion and people help create. So stop trying to lecture us with your stupid liberal speak.
And please don't use Ron Paul as a great conservative to lecture us. He is no conservative and is as stupid as you are about Islam, symblisium and our national defense.
John Navratil| 8.24.10 @ 10:24AM
Joe D.,
Just a little defense of Ron Paul is in order. "Dr. No" is quite principled in his opposition to unconstitutional legislation (most of it). He has an unfortunate, in my opinion, view of America as the old agrarian economy separated by oceans from the rest of the world. He is very qualified for the position he holds but, because of his world view, is unqualified to wear the hat of Commander in Chief; as is the current wearer who, if his ears weren't holding it up, would be blinded by its brim.
Insight| 8.24.10 @ 9:17AM
There are enough Mosque's in New York! How many Christian Churches are there in Mecca? If they want to build a Mosque some where, how about Havana or maybe in Moscow!
Timothy L. Pennell| 8.24.10 @ 9:21AM
All I know is that the NUNS at Auschwitz MOVED their Convent and their Cross, when it was protested by the Jewish Community as being insensitive. No problem. No Hysteria from the Catholic Church. They didn't want this to be something that would cause others Anguish and Pain and Anger.
But we're not talking about CHRISTIANS. We're not talking about the Teachings of CHRIST, and FORGIVENESS. We're talking about a Religion of BLOOD. A Religion of TORTURE and DEATH and CRUELTY. Have you seen a TALIBAN lately? Does he LOOK like he's going to Heaven. Or does he look like something from HELLS' PIT?
I say, let them build their Mosque. SOMEPLACE ELSE. Somewhere on the UPPER WEST SIDE. This way they'll be with all of their Liberal SUPPORTERS.
Wouldn't that be nice?
TomP| 8.24.10 @ 9:26AM
This mosque is a monument to the 19 highjackers and will be cheered in middle east.
I still vividly remember the cheering crowds after 9/11.
Dai Alanye | 8.24.10 @ 12:29PM
Precisely. The Muslims may start by claiming this mosque a monument to tolerance but will soon transform it into a shrine to Mohammed Atta and his eighteen buddies.
John Schuh| 8.26.10 @ 2:25PM
Indeed, Dai Alanye: If they want to show tolerance,let Christians have a "worship space," a Jews a "temple" inside the building. They won't do it because they reject the very relativism that their supporters use to justify their mosque.
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 9:35AM
It would be better to remember that Three Million Polish Catholics and Christians were killed by The Nazis in The Holocaust.
100,000 of them in Auschwitz .
Bill| 8.24.10 @ 9:43AM
When the time for the campaign for the national election of 2010 arrived, it was theorized that if the Democrats could get the Republicans diverted from talking about joblessness and the state of the economy, the left stood a better chance of retaining power.
So starting with the Sherrod racist thing and continuing with the Ground Zero mosque, they have indeed managed to derail the debate for much of the campaign. Now, as we head into the fall, we of the right are still enmeshed in these squabbles over claims of racism and religious intolerance, and we ought to be hitting unemployment and a chronically faltering economy over and over, but the left has succeeded in getting us all off-topic.
Congratulations to the left; once again, they've displayed their political savvy.
Publius| 8.24.10 @ 11:07AM
Bill,
You make a point, an idiotic one, but a point nonetheless. Everyone with a brain knows quite well the statists are on the way to flushing capitalism down the toilet, and we are feeling a mere pin prick of the ultimate economic pain headed our way.
Nonetheless, Obama and his organ grinder monkeys simply cannot contain themselves and continue to reveal their repulsive philosophy to the unwashed masses.
We will accept every gift of their stated beliefs as
we march to the polls. They have succeeded in nothing but compounding our disdain with their every move.
Gill O’Teen ✝✡$| 8.24.10 @ 11:15AM
Bill, Thanks for the reminder. Possibly because of being heavily medicated almost all month, I overlooked that the lord of flies is a master of distraction who performs politics in a manner not unlike how a magician makes a rabbit disappear. his incompetence had no purpose to opine about a ‘local’ issue, yet he did. Whenever he exercises his loved-by-flies lips, we must always ask ourselves, “What is beavisbud really got up his sleeve?”
Gill O’Teen ✝✡$
Don’t Tread on Me.
gill.Oteen07041776@gmail.com
“As you gain experience, you'll realise (sic) that all logical questions are considered insubordination.” - Dilbert
Only 880 days to go
scotchieguy| 8.25.10 @ 3:17AM
The economy? Almost forgot about that. It is called divide and conquer. You are against the folks of AZ enforcing the border? Racist! You are against the poor? Evil, greedy, rich bastard. You are against the Mosque? Islamophobe. It really seems to work. The masters in the WH are getting ready to roll again, as the MSM paves the way...meanwhile, the rest of us are in the trenches beating the crap out of each other, forgetting where the real battle is. Works everytime.
Just wondering| 8.24.10 @ 10:06AM
Fact-muslims consider blacks lower than dirt. Fact-muslims despise gays. Fact-no religion other than islam tolerated by muslims. Fact-women under islam treated as third class (animals rate higher). Fact-barbaric, savage, sadistic treatment of women, children and infidels are commonplace. Anyone seen the video of the adult muslim men teaching young boys to behead "infidels". How about that Daniel Pearl video? Am I to understand that if we Americans do not tolerate and accept this dark ages way of life and welcome a recruitment site on sacred ground that we are haters? I'll take my hater mentality over their hater mentality any day of the week.
Bill from WV| 8.24.10 @ 10:19AM
It has been 10 yeasr and you can count on one hand the number of Muslims who have apologized for the crimes that heir own commited here.
Silence is Compliance.
For others to speak of our lack of religious and personal freedoms as they flaunt the buiding of this "Victory Center", (that is what it really is) by people who will noty even allow public affection and still stone religious offenders is beyond ludicrous.
Ron Paul is a helluva constitutional mind, but portraying dissent against the building of a this place to the euqivalent of it somehow dragging us into Middle East conflicts, causes me to question his reasoning abilities.
The bottom line is this. The Islamic people allways build great mosques at the sight of their greatest victories against their enemies. In Spain, in Turkey, and everywhere else they have won great vistories ,they have built mosques in every one.
Religious tolerence has NOTHING to do about this dissent. Respect for those who have died there has EVERYTHING to do with it!
I ask this. Would you have permitted the Japanese to build a Toyota plant at Pearl Harbor 10 years later?
There is NO difference.
Bill from WV
John Navratil| 8.24.10 @ 10:32AM
Not trying to be picayune, but Pearl Harbor is a war memorial and GZ is not. If it were, there would be a way to stop it.
In a perverse way, I almost wish to see this built. It would serve as a constant reminder of the intolerance of Islam and as a shrine to the perfidy of the multi-culturalists.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 10:25AM
I am trying to understand why building a mosque anywhere in the US is now a feasible proposition, if I read these posts correctly.
Perhaps we should have zoning laws developed that account for "sensitivities" of the locals in regards to religious sites. One problem, where does that proposition end?
The vote was unanimous to permit the construction. The mayor has defended it, as has the president by supporting and defending the constitution.
Surprisingly, the only recourse opponents now have is to reach out to muslims and negotiate a compromise. This is an impossibility for contributers here.
Bottom line: if they complete consruction before the GZ hole is filled, they deserve a medal not disdain. If the hole is America's wound, we really need to get up and start living again. Two wars and a descent into fear and self-loathing is enough of a salve for any wound. 9 years and nothing to show at GZ is more of a dagger to the hearts of survivors than any adjacent development. Shame, and shame on the rest of you for dumping on the constitution when it suits your puny agenda. I thought being American meant we were different than other regimes, and this petty back and forth on a rights issue only reinforces people's beliefs we are a fairweather democracy.
Willing to sacrifice true liberty for a false sense of security any day.
John Navratil| 8.24.10 @ 10:38AM
Back to confusing liberty and license, again?
No one has seriously argued that the developers do not have the right to build the mosque. In a free society, one generally does not need permission to act and license is a restriction on such freedoms.
We are free to do what we wish because we do not do everything we can. It's politeness; consideration of others. It's a foreign concept to the liberal mind which knows only license.
Fortunately for the Republic, 70% are not so confused.
Bruce Berger| 8.24.10 @ 10:47AM
And shame on you for falsely accusing people of dumping on the Constitution. As I said above to vtwin, most people are using their CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to speak out against the building of the mosque in the hope of having a different outcome. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that. It happens every day in this country on a variety of issues.
Stop the lecturing and preening.
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 12:49PM
Then by your own apologist standard False Flag Canuck , you can respect The Constitutional Right to File A Suit To Stop The Mosque.
"The American Center for Law and Justice, a conservative group founded by evangelist Pat Robinson, has filed a lawsuit seeking to block the construction of a mosque near Ground Zero.
The suit seeks to nullify the unanimous vote of the New York Landmarks Preservation Commission denying landmark designation for an old textile building.
A designation would have stopped the demolition of the Burlington Coat Factory to make way for what the Cordoba Initiative describes as a $100 million community center consisting of a mosque, a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants and an interfaith area.
The factory building is located at 45 Park Place, or two and half blocks away from Ground Zero .
The lawsuit was filed at the state Supreme Court on Wednesday, a day after the Preservation Commission's vote. It argues that officials violated their own policies and procedures in denying designation for the factory building. Officials demonstrated "an arbitrary and capricious abuse of discretion and contrary to decades of administrative precedent," the suit alleges.
"The land use process of New York City now threatens to do what the terrorists failed to accomplish and destroy a building that has been under consideration for landmark status for 20 years," the ACLJ added.
The group filed the suit on behalf of a first responder who survived 9/11, Tim Brown."
JohnK144| 8.24.10 @ 10:25AM
As it regards this particular mosque being built in this particular area, there is absolutely no guaranteed "right," whether in the Constitution or based in natural law, for it to be allowed. Certainly not when that action can be demonstrated to create a PUBLIC NUISANCE.
Those who try to make an argument based on the right to free exercise of religion stand entirely on quick sand, and they don't even know why. That's so mainly because they have scant experience of ever having defended religious liberty at any other point in their lives.
First off, the free exercise of religion does not give the practitioner absolute power to construct buildings wherever they please. The denial of building rights to the pre=existent Greek Orthodox Church at Ground Zero demonstrates that. Zoning laws, public use laws, and various ordinances have prevented such building on thousands of occasions.
Secondly, there have always been practical limitations placed on the free practice of religion, based essentially upon the application of natural law. As a simple example, if someone decides they want to "preach the gospel," as is prescribed in the bible, on a quiet city street at four o'clock in the morning with a bullhorn, that person would be stopped and cited for disturbing the peace. And not ONE person who is citing the Constitutional argument of freedom of religion regarding the mosque would say one word to object.
Yet, in disturbing the peace of not only a neighborhood, but of 70% of the entire nation, these people suddenly become Constitutional absolutists, who rarely or ever had defended it before. These same people, who have accepted the Supreme Court ruling that pornography is protected under the First Amendment as Free Speech, would not hesitate to fight against a porn shop being built in their own residential neighborhoods, or next to their own children's school, AS WELL THEY SHOULD. Because they don't like the Constitutional right to Free Speech? No. But because it violates the sensibilities of the community. It would create a public nuisance, and quite possibly, through those who might be drawn to their neighborhoods, a public menace.
So whenever you hear the sanctimonious outcry of newly minted Constitutional absolutists defending the "rights" of a politically correct religion to build their place of worship on "private property," even if it "offends" the sensibilities of a majority of the People, remember always that because their decision is based on their own "divine right of choice," they would also be the first to shred the entire Constitution to restrict anyone who offended their own personal "sensibilities."
Charlene| 8.24.10 @ 10:42AM
BRAVO! Well stated indeed.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 10:59AM
This mosque has passed all local ordinances and permit processes so far.
The mosque people are following the law and have shown enormous restraint in the face of constant baiting and provocations by people that probably have zero idea what they are talking about.
We use words like "Christ's soldiers", "crusaders" and disciples when we defend our Christian way of life. Do we even fully understand the effects the deeds our governments have done in Christ's name? Is it neutral or something else?
It was not until JP2 did the word "pernicious" Jews leave liturgical texts. The entire scotch and york rites of the masonic hall was based on the undermining of papist overreach, and the smashing of the catholic crucifix is still in practise at many many halls. Mormons, under the yoke of the CRA, abandoned the description of blacks as subhuman and the abolishing of polygamy is a recent innovation. The list goes on and on.
The point is, if we are willing to trash a billion-strong religion as a violent cult based on nothing more than extrapolated projections of certain criminal behavior, then we better start examining all religions with the same deficient fervor.
There are evangelicals and zionists at every level of government, business and military. They are aligned in one thing only: the construction of the 3rd temple. I think our interest should be directed there as this alone is inflicting more damage to Americans than any mosque can or will.
Mike C| 8.24.10 @ 11:02AM
Where is this passion for the Greek Orthodox church destroyed on 9 / 11 and denied the approval to rebuild??? The hypocrisy is stunning.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 11:14AM
Have them take it up with the city council and the port authority.
we are ruled by laws, not hysteria.
JohnK144| 8.24.10 @ 11:48AM
Unfortunately, we are ruled by MEN, who reinterpret laws for political reasons and to advance their own power.
Only suckers like you believe otherwise, especially when it suits your bias.
Kris, in New England| 8.24.10 @ 4:35PM
They have taken it up with the City of NY and the Port Authority. The Greek Church was told the only place they could build was on top of what will also be the underground vehicle bomb detection area.
Yeah, anyone would welcome having their home or other building constructed on top of a bomb detection site.
Flit Andersen| 8.24.10 @ 10:18PM
"bomb detection site?"
Hell, the best place to put this would be ....
UNDER A MOSQUE!!
Dai Alanye | 8.24.10 @ 12:35PM
It is truly amazing how much respect the left now pays to religious liberty… Muslim religious liberty, that is.
TR| 8.24.10 @ 2:53PM
Yes, the left tries to block all religious expression IF it is Christian of Jewish. Let it be islam or the church of global warming or the church of communism, and they are all suddenly zealots! What absolute fecal matter they are.
Margie| 8.25.10 @ 7:35PM
That's because their ideology trumps reality. And just like the Communists, they will rather throw you under the bus (or a jail cell) if you don't go by their rules.
Mike C| 8.24.10 @ 10:52AM
Islam is not a religion of tolerance, peace or respect. Radicals in the vein of Shariah behead, lop off noses, limbs etc. Islam is currently involved with conflicts the world over with Christians, Hindus and peaceful Muslims. Radical Islam aims to eradicate all who stand in it's path period. Radical Islam hates American and all we stand for why should we sit idly by while they erect this Mosque or any Mosque. Each Mosque should be viewed as a stake of claim by Islam and it should not be tolerated. I'm tired of the argument for tolerance the only people who receive this consideration are those that intend to harm us WTF!?! We saw where PCness gets us first hand with the Fort Hood shooting. A spade is a spade.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 11:07AM
Which form of Islam are you referring? Islam is as disparate as Christianity. Are you a Christian like a Dutch Reformed that underwrote probably the worst colonial attrocities in Indonesia or the development of Apartheid in SA? What about the forced education of native Canadians by the Catholic church, subsidized by taxpayers? Or are you a calvinist or lutheran who believes in the total depravity of the human soul? i.e good things come to good people stuff. Or are you an evangelical that believes the rapture will occur when the 3rd temple is built, thus aligning you with zionists? Or are you an episcopal aka Anglican, who your leader, the English sovereign, raped and pillaged countless colonies, including the forced cultural dismantling of Ireland?
We all have our skeletons in the name of God. This demonizing of a certain group is unChristian....or is it?
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 11:24AM
Oh My God , The Forced Education of Native Canadians by The Catholic Church .
The Native Canadians Cry Out , "We Canucks Wanna Stay Stupid " !
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha !
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 11:27AM
You're an idiot. The asterisk is for "DNR"?, or is it "Danger to himself and others"?
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 11:43AM
You're A Smacked Ass .
Canucks with Hockey Sticks Are Dangerous.
Stammon| 8.24.10 @ 12:11PM
I'm a Canadian, and I want canuckistani to name a Muslim country at peace with it's non Muslim neighbors and minorities. And no fair picking the few who are trying to be nice 'cause they are selling the West oil or tourism.
rdman| 8.24.10 @ 3:41PM
I'm an ex-Canadian and who said: Beware the treachery of Arabs...
Bruce Berger| 8.24.10 @ 11:45AM
Canuck,
Let me preface my remarks here by stating unequivocally that I know very little about Islam as a religion and Muslims who practice it.
But the little I do know does concern me. The scales fell from my eyes a few years ago. You may recall the situation. An Afghan man had converted to Christianity if memory serves me correctly. Some (or many? I don't know) in the Muslim world wanted him put to death as an apostate. Italy granted him asylum, thank goodness. However, there were people in Afghanistan (again, was it some or many?) who demanded the man be extradited back to Afghanistan. Why would they want that? You would think they would be happy to be rid of the apostate. No, they wanted him extradited so that he could be properly punished, by executing him.
Now, again restating my ignorance of Islam and those who practice it, I have little trouble stating that the above example shows a dangerous religious practice in the modern-day world. This isn't some long ago perversion. This is within the last 5 years.
If Muslims want true tolerance, they should put their own house in order first.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 12:20PM
The Afghanistan that Junior's procounsel endorsed as ok to impose shariah law? A country that has 20% literacy is your example?
Do you think one if not a few muslims have come to the US seeking to get away from that form of the Islamic law?
I see riots in the streets in Pakistan, Iran and other islamic states looking for reforms.
I do agree Islam is not wholly compatible with western systems. Our line we draw is about the rule of law, not temporary social ebbs and flows and moralities derived from ancient outdated traditions.
Bruce Berger| 8.24.10 @ 12:36PM
I did notice the lack of outrage regarding this incident from both moderate Muslims and the political left in this country at the time. So while the incident happened in a country with a 20% literacy rate, the response, or lack thereof, in this country was illuminating.
MYOB| 8.24.10 @ 12:36PM
I remember this as well. They were going to kill him. He was saved when he was declared insane because, it was argued, only a crazy person would leave islam.
cl| 8.24.10 @ 11:14AM
islam is not a religion, period. it is a political ideology. its followers wish to impose sharia law. there is no separation of "islam" and "state." islam is the state. look at saudi arabia, iran, etc., specifically how women, minorities, homosexuals, and opponents of islam are treated. they are beheaded. christians and jews are not allowed in mecca or median. our servicemen in saudi arabia are not supposed to wear religious symbols, such as crosses. and obama could not speak at georgetown without having the cross on the podium covered.we do not need lectures about tolerance for islam. name one muslim in the usa who is prevented from practicing his faith.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 11:26AM
I see it as matter of degree.
Not long ago women were men's possessions here. Blacks could not marry whites, and we had a bloody civil war debating whether or not a black was actually a person.
We have the death penalty and the perverted readings of the 2nd amendment that lingers from our violent, vulgar past.
It was under force of law that we departed from Saudi-style social norms. They will have their period of enlightenment after this navel-gazing period subsides, just as we did and are still having.
As for Mecca and Medina, the ban on non-adherents is an Arab thing, not a muslim thing. There is a move inside Saudi to ban all non-sunni muslims as well. This is huge, and we would be smart to stay the heck away from this burgeoning blood feud.
Stammon| 8.24.10 @ 12:16PM
What willful ignorance. It's been known for over 1200 years that Islam treats it's women much much worse than the west.
The Muslim world even commented on how well the Northern tribes treated their women.
Meanwhile, even today some Muslim countries have slavery.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 12:33PM
So what?
We're talking about a mosque HERE.
The US is populated with tribes looking to get away from persecution in all of its forms.
We have religious persecution, slavery, demagoguery, civil war, wars of opportunity and aggressive actions in our past and present. We used WMDs more effectively than ANY tribe in the history of the earth, weaponized nearly all of them, and we have abandoned more treaties signed in good faith from the Geneva Conventions, to test-bans to trade agreements like speed bumps. When we enter a country militarily, WE NEVER LEAVE.
If another tribe had done that to us, what do you think the radical fringe would do in the name of the red white and blue? Would they be patriots or terrorists?
I love being an American, but it disgusts me when we do not see the price people pay for the dominance we enjoy.
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 1:31PM
But , we ain't another tribe , pseudo-intellect lecturin' False Flag Canuck.
What We Are Is Americans .
Don't Like It ?
Well , You could always join another tribe.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 1:48PM
Nope, I like it right here, talking about the weather with you.
You just don't like hearing the truth. I like my MTV and free speech, and I also pay attention to where my tax dollars are going when dealing with the world. You choose to put your head in the sand and believe you actually have anything to do with what you think or do.
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 2:31PM
See that !
Apparently , You like your spin version of the truth, faux intellect bloviator.
You don't know me , Sport .
Aaaand , If ya liked truth so much , ya wouldn't False Flag as a Canuck.
Stammon| 8.24.10 @ 4:51PM
As a canuck hooser i say;
Here here.
Find another name.
Thom Burke| 8.24.10 @ 1:40PM
Love being an American? Like those "immigrants" parading through OUR streets, waving the flag of their home country, and calling us vile names, love being American?
Ran into a Canadian who owned a second home in Montana. She thought that paying property taxes on a condo gave her the right to call me a racist because I disagreed with her leftist opinions.
You have a Canadian flag displayed somewhere in your home, right? Always shed a tear when you hear 'O Canada' played before the hockey game on TV?
Go home, hypocrite.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 1:57PM
It is sad an Irish dude like you fails to recognize the struggle a people have to go through to get the hell away from oppressors.
This country was built and still being built with sweat and labor of new Americans - just like the Irish have done for several hundred years.
Ireland was systematically dismantled during the 1800's - language, religion, even names of towns were forcibly converted to English names. The Episcopal church came in behind the British infantry and set up shop as the "Church of Ireland". The Irish lost almost half of their pop during the famine - the Brits did ZERO to help and the people fled to America. Your ancestors went through that hell and came here and built something.
Do you think it impossible for any other group to do the same? Will you help them or shut your eyes? To do otherwise spits in the faces of those who came before you.
Stammon| 8.24.10 @ 4:49PM
"When we enter a country militarily, WE NEVER LEAVE."
Really;
Canada, Tripoli, Mexico, Dixie, Cuba, Philippines, China, France, Germany, Belgium, Holland, Denmark, Granada, Panama, Kuwait, Iraq, Iraq again (still leaving).
I mean really, what the f do you want. The USA has gone out of it's way to free the world and rebuild it. Name anything that the USSR or Red China has done that is similar. And yes I understand all about the Philippines and Cuba as special cases.
And don't go one about how we are not talking about the USSR and Red China, give comparative examples of world class powers that have been as altruistic as the USA>
jmulcahy| 8.24.10 @ 10:04PM
When we enter a country militarily, WE NEVER LEAVE.
Look, that is rubbish. When asked by DeGaulle in 1965 to remove all US forces from France, we did so. We leave when countries ask us to leave. The pointed response of Dean Rusk to DeGaulle was, "Does that include our dead in the cemeteries?" We sacrificed to keep France free in two world wars and yet left when asked. We do the same everywhere.
From your comments and moniker you are clearly a Canadian Pakistani. If you are now an American citizen, welcome to the club. This is not about a rights issue. There are 90-100 mosques in NYC. No one is saying they can't build more. The question is the bad taste and insensitivty shown to fellow Americans (that doesn't matter?), particularly those who have died at the hands of Islamic terrorism at the WTC. This will not build bridges. Build it elsewhere.
cl| 8.24.10 @ 12:32PM
anyone who believes that "it is a matter of degree" in comparing the usa to sharia law countries, such as iran,etc. is either an idiot or deluded. you cannot have a rational convearsation with such a person. go back to your lefty websites and enjoy your delusions.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 1:18PM
You choose to consider the application of law as more imprtant than the tradition behind it.
Have you evn read Shariah law?
I has almost no differences to Talmudic tradition....which is the basis of almost all of our laws.
Not long ago, theft, lying and murder were hanging offenses here....in the central square, without appeal.
Give it time.
Stammon| 8.24.10 @ 4:59PM
Yes but the Jews never enforced their talmudic laws on the goyim. Certainly not unto the death.
So shut up.
A.C.D| 8.24.10 @ 11:10AM
But its not on ground zero. Its two blocks away, and in NY speak, that might as well be in Alaska. There is a porno theatre that is closer to ground zero than this mosque will be. I am dutch and we have problems with islamofascism in a way the US could never understand, but I know from experience that trying to marginalize a group is only going to make matters worse. This anti-mosque hoopla is nothing more than hate speech in order to rally people around hating a group. It used to be communists, and now it is muslims. I would like to add, I am not a fan of organized religion and Islam is by far one of the worst, but I also know that trying to divide people and deny people something will only add more fuel to a fire that is going to spread wildly out of control.
Just remember, IT ISNT ON GROUND ZERO!
Publius| 8.24.10 @ 11:25AM
Oh the utter naivete.
Anthony| 8.24.10 @ 2:36PM
Sorry fool, you've fallen for the straw dog argument, perhaps because your cause and that of radical Islam is the same.
In the first instance, it IS Ground Zero. Perhaps you've not heard that parts of the plane's landing gears and other debris fell on this very building, hence the low purchase price. That makes this hallow ground.
Perhaps you haven't heard that the Iman has been insistant on finding a site as close to Ground Zero as possible.
Perhaps you might then ask yourself, why would that be? If the purpose is to bring reconciliation, why is it that Islam has no give in this matter? What is sacrosanct about this site? Where's Islam's sensitivity?
Well, the answer is obvious, except to fools such as yourself; a Ground Zero mosque is a monument to Wahabi Islam's victory, with Useful Idiots, such as yourself, groveling to prove your greater sense of tolerance. They laugh at fools like you and can't wait till the day of your subjugation.
When your day of subjugation comes, and they chain you to the mosque as a human shield, it' will be a fitting fate for a moron like you.
a.c.d| 9.3.10 @ 5:26AM
calling me a moron, does not an argument make.
Steve A| 8.24.10 @ 11:12AM
vtwin, You should be celebrating. For once, your boys Harry Reid & Howard Dean got it right. I guess they did not consult with the wizard of incompetence, BO, prior to offering an opinion.
Citizen Jerry| 8.24.10 @ 11:27AM
A pundit on one of the national news networks recently said that if this atrocity is approved, developers plan to break ground on Sept. 11, 2011.
Happy 10th anniversary!
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 11:35AM
I hope they do.
The failure of us to fill the hole is a testament to the failure of leadership at all levels of society.
I saw Junior standing on the rubble promising to get 'er dun lickety split. I guess it was another "Mission accomplished" moment.
Instead of pandering to baser intincts, perhaps we should be getting our house in order and move on?
Publius| 8.24.10 @ 11:40AM
I presume from your name you are a Canadian?
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 11:55AM
No, born raised educated here, lived there for a time working for a US co, now live work and raise my kids here.
Immigrant (christian euro) parents have really impacted my worldview. In spite of our ramblings here, people are just people. They want the same thing - to live. I have met people from all 50 states and probably 100 countries - not elites, just regular folk, and they want the same things in life: a future for their children better than their present situation.
We all have the same DNA, the only thing that differs is the luck or misfortune of where we emerge from our mother's womb. We tend to indict the footsoldier, when we should be focusing our targets on the generals and affecting policy there.
Hypocrisy runs deep in EVERY system, and for us to not recognize it inside ourselves is troubling and drives me to engage the writers here that simply do not get that fact.
JohnK144| 8.24.10 @ 12:12PM
You complain of other people's hypocrisy, not realizing you're blinded by your own arrogance.
I'd suggest you take the plank out of your own eye before taking the speck out of the eye of others.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 2:02PM
I did, long ago.
I've said it many times....I love America, and I also know what we do to preserve our dominance.
I take the good with the bad. We're all complicit in one form or another.
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 3:03PM
So back your lecturing mouth Faux Canuck and take in as many immigrant muslims , as your wife allows.
Then get back to us .
WAKE UP| 8.24.10 @ 7:53PM
You speak for yourself, traitor.
WAKE UP| 8.24.10 @ 7:55PM
By which I mean YOU, Canuck - because you're obviously so stupid you might have misunderstood me.
JP| 8.24.10 @ 1:36PM
And I lived in both Europe and the Middle East. No, we are not all the same. I can tell you that Muslims even living in the West prefer Sharia to our civic laws.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 2:08PM
Sharia law is not on the books here.
What is the problem?
We have laws on the books now that deal with abuse and the nasty things that occur in Islamic households. Enforce them.
As conservatives, we should be happy households follow Sharia. It means lower crime, fewer contractual disputes and people being less promiscuous. The defense of women subtext neanderthals conjure up here is rich.
Brazil still has honor killing as a defense, Sharia there too?
John Navratil@sbcglobal.net| 8.24.10 @ 3:33PM
Not on the books? See..
http://www.2ndcoa.courts.state.....onID=14601
...for a referral of a Texas divorce to an Islamic Court in Richardson, Texas
As for following Sharia, it's convenient that you fail to mention the punishments for adultery, homosexuality or apostasy.
And please elaborate on the richness of the "neanderthal" defense of women. I presume the ad hominem is to call us all misogynists. If so, how precisely does that defend genital mutilation and stoning? Does my beating my wife really excuse anyone else's behaviour? Perhaps in your morally equivalent universe it works the other way as well. Does the practice of clitorectomy or honor killings grant me permission to beat my wife? Please!
And just so you know, both my parents were European refugees to the U.S. after the war; one from Eastern and the other from Western Europe. All my extended family is still over there. I've lived here, there and in the Middle East. And while I'll grant that people are just people, we are not all the same. Some want to get in your face about how you need to live and others do not. The Muslims do.
DRed| 8.24.10 @ 6:30PM
John, I just read that decision. It has to do with an arbitration agreement. There's nothing in it at all about Sharia. Are you really frightened that there's going to be Sharia in America? How is that going to happen?
Flit Andersen| 8.24.10 @ 10:29PM
ahem...
http://www.americanthinker.com.....brita.html
John Navratil| 8.25.10 @ 9:21AM
There is no such thing as a little Sharia. It's comprehensive.
As far as this decision goes, I'm fine. I have no difficulty with parties agreeing to binding arbitration. I'm comfortable that the parties here chose to do this. What I am not comfortable with is a Muslim male being able to divorce his Muslim wife and American children by saying so and having a Sharia court say all he has to do is return a dowry while leaving his other American customary obligations (community property, child support) behind. Has it happened? Not to my knowledge. Will it? We will see. Do the Muslims seek Sharia in the West. Absolutely!
However, I brought this up as a specific rebuttal to Canuckistani's bald assertion that this was not on the books here.
Occam's Tool| 8.24.10 @ 9:42PM
Sharia law does not equal less crime. Review Norwegian rape statistics Canuckistani, and the concept of "no-go" police zones.
Jmulcahy| 8.24.10 @ 11:22PM
"Brazil still has honor killing as a defense, Sharia there too?"
Wrong. The despicable defense was outlawed there in 1991. Still permitted in the Middle East though. Nice strawman though.
JKS| 8.24.10 @ 2:20PM
canuckistani isn't a hypocrit or arrogant. He's just for the forced subjegation of people of other faiths, the forced inprisonment of women, for female circumcission, and all the other wonderful practices that the islam of today forces on us. Moral equivalence doesn't work. Christians, Jews and all other religions have a past that is filled with violence somewhere along the line. That does not justify what islam is doing TODAY! Honor killings that happen in this country are a product of islam. islam is a cancer and it needs to be erradicated.
LostSailor| 8.24.10 @ 1:28PM
Actually, Ground Zero is a construction site, where two towers have already been started and one has something like 40 floors completed. It is no longer a hole.
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 2:14PM
Good to know, but we designed and built multiple football stadia more complex than the new tower in half the time.
Where did Junior go as the booster of recons?
If the Muslims can design, fund and build their mosque before the towers open: bravo. They know the power of decion-making and priorities.
They bought the property for a steal and obtained the permits to get it done.
LiveFreeOrDie| 8.25.10 @ 11:46AM
Were any of those "football stadia" sites littered with human remains? Take your head out of your ass it's blocking the flow of blood to your pea brain.
Kaz | 8.24.10 @ 11:50AM
It is not a mosque. Anyone calling it a mosque is either too irresponsible to bother checking their facts, or is a hatemongering liar.
It is a 13 story tall community center, that will look like a standard big city skyscraper, a rectangular prism of steel and glass.
It will have a restaurant, a gymnasium, an auditorium...it is, really, a glorified YMCA.
Don't get sucked in by the hatemongers.
http://butnowyouknow.wordpress.....ng-mosque/
monty| 8.24.10 @ 12:06PM
Hey, TennesseeVolunteer, we got one down here!!!
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 12:07PM
No, it is a mosque, but that's not the point.
They have the permits and we have the constitution to enforce.
I think Geller and her Ayn Rand disciples need to be more closely looked at.......
JohnK144| 8.24.10 @ 12:14PM
Hahahaha. Yeah. Let's INVESTIGATE those 9/11 families. Right Nancy?
Bruce Berger| 8.24.10 @ 1:39PM
And the law, backed by the Constitution's most important element, the Bill of Rights, says that people have the right to make their objections known. That is all that is happening here. To say otherwise is be intolerant of dissent.
The mosque probably will be built, but that doesn't mean that people cannot voice their objections to it, or that they are not allowed to use every legal means available to prevent its construction.
Charlene| 8.24.10 @ 12:12PM
@ Kaz
Anyone calling it a mosque is either too irresponsible to bother checking their facts, or is a hatemongering liar
Interesting. imam rauf and wife both referred to it as a mosque.
Purple Lips| 8.24.10 @ 1:34PM
Tell that to the Iman Faisel Rauf. The term GZ Mosque was his, not ours. The MSM stopped using it about the time the stories broke (June 2010). It is interesting how the Muslims see this. You refer to that part of New York as Ground Zero, and there is no mention of Community Center.
RonL | 8.25.10 @ 2:39AM
And an aircraft carrier is just a really big ship with a small landing strip an da catapult. Heck only about 200 of the 5700 officers and crew of a Nimitz class ship fly.
It is a mosque and a community center. But all mosques are centers of a community.
LarryK| 8.24.10 @ 12:00PM
Build it, then Bomb it!
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 12:09PM
And then what?
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 4:54PM
We design and build a new stadium Silly Fraud Canuck , just like you were blathering about earlier.
Charles Martel| 8.24.10 @ 12:09PM
The 9/11 Victory Mosque is a deliberate provocation that, if completed, will be received as the seal of triumph wherever the ravings of the medieval desert murderer hold sway. No monument to mohammedanism should be permitted in the area where debris fell, for that is sacred ground from which we are still recovering the remains of their victims, and we will not accept their deliberate desecration of same.
+++
Lost Sailor| 8.24.10 @ 1:33PM
So, the existing mosque 4 blocks away that is too small to serve the number of people at prayers should be removed? It's been there for years. How far away is acceptable? Should we refer all such questions of propriety to you? How about when you get yourself elected to the community board or are appointed to the zoning commission. And your sacred ground is a construction site, is that a desecration?
David| 8.24.10 @ 12:29PM
From my boss:
If it is true that the mosque near Ground Zero is to promote tolerance, it was suggested that a gay nightclub be opened next door to the mosque.
Two names suggested are:
"The Turban Cowboy", and "You Mecca Me Hot".
I still think a strip club, dog kennel, and pork meat market would be appropriate in the area.
CathyMac| 8.24.10 @ 12:31PM
Kaz
Do a little more Homework! At the very top will be a Mosque that will be able to look out over GZ. I say that is a slap in the face!
ABNCP| 8.24.10 @ 12:32PM
VTWIN
Reading your takes really saves me a great deal of time. Otherwise I might only be able to get those insane views with:
Pongyang's Really Honest News Pub.
Al Jazeera (were moderates we only want to kill all the Jews.
Pravda Were Americas friends Obama, really
Venezula's Chavez Daily Blow
Iran's A Bomb review.
Thanks.
Steve A| 8.24.10 @ 12:57PM
In the true spirit of compromise I offer the following solution. The mosque can be built under the following conditions: 1) The towers are reconstructed, as they were, using funding exclusively from muslim enterprise. 2) there are 2 mosque locations, top floors of each tower. 3) giant bullseye painted on each mosque on outside of buildings. 4) No parachutes allowed in mosques.
Adirondacker59| 8.24.10 @ 1:57PM
Because many people whose opinions I respect share the views that you express, I wish to say first that I find your reaction to the proposed WTC area mosque very understandable and natural. There is no question that there is a global competition between the ideas of fundamentalist Islam and western values of individual liberty. The planting of a “triumphal arch” by representatives of fundamentalist Islam close to the site of the most deadly attack on civilians in the history of our country would be a desecration and a proper object of protest regardless of the legalities of its construction.
However, as a conservative, I am deeply concerned that the characterization of ANY mosque built by ANY Islamic group in the WTC area as such a “triumphal arch” goes too far and is inconsistent with one of the most fundamental values of the conservative movement -- the right of each individual to be treated as an individual, free from any taint of group guilt.
I will acknowledge that there may be some groups that have such a well-defined and odious set of values that ANY voluntary association by an individual with that group justifies an assumption that the individual shares those odious values (e.g., the Nazi party or the KKK). However, a world religion that has existed for over a thousand years into which generation after generation of believers have been born, has developed innumerable variants and sects and has adapted to the particular habits of hundreds of localities from Spain to Indonesia is not such a group. Imagine the absurdity of assuming that an Episcopalian from New Jersey and a Seventh Day Adventist from Zimbabwe must share the same values and goals because they both call themselves Christians.
The individuals who have banded together to build this mosque have a right to be treated by us as individuals and not have a set of values ascribed to them simply because they are professing Moslems. Group guilt is not a conservative value. If there are specific grounds for objection to these particular individuals, make these objections the focus of your protests, not the mere fact of an Islamic identity.
There is more than mere faithfulness to our values that is at stake here. The conservative movement is being judged by potential independent voters who are suspicious of the establishment governing class, but are wary of conservativism because of the efforts of the mainstream media to portray its conservatives as parochial, ignorant and intolerant. The conservative movement must be very careful to examine how opposition to the WTC area mosque expressed in broad generalities -- no matter how viscerally satisfying -- corresponds to the core values of the movement and will be perceived by the independent voters that it will need in November.
Steve A| 8.24.10 @ 2:12PM
Adirondaker, A very well constructed & lucid commentary. Nicely done. I will simply add this thought. The suggestion that the opposition to this project is intolerant, by any party, individual or political group does not bear scrutiny. There has been no opposition to any other project of the kind in the years since 09/11/01 at any other location. The Imam has not rejected Hamas or the quest to impose Sharia, the site is clearly incindiary & offensive, particularly to those who lost friends & family on 09/11. The opposition to this project is a matter of human decency & respect for others who have suffered. The backers of this project are flat out wrong & selfish to proceed. Let the political chips fall where they may.
John Navratil| 8.24.10 @ 3:43PM
Steve A,
To add to your critique, this isn't a bunch of devout individuals chipping in to build a house of prayer. The funding for the project ($100 million isn't a can full of dimes) has, so far, been secret. That isn't a problem, per se, but I would have a lot more sympathy if this didn't give all the appearances of the, previously mentioned, triumphal arch.
Oldefarte| 8.24.10 @ 1:59PM
I am a office worker inside the twin towers complex....I've just gotten out the the elevator onto my floor, gotten a cup of coffee from the lunchroom, sat down at my desk and contemplated the day's work.....I decide to stroll over to the plate glass windows to look outside and see the sunshine before settling into work.....I see a airliner that has recently taken off from Laguardia making an unusual inflight turn and heading in the direction of my building......An uneasy feeling creeps into the pit of my stomach as to what my sight and mind could possibly be telling me......the plane completes its turn and is now heading directly toward the area of my building....I am now in full panic mode as I realize what is about to occur and how I and my office mates will become effected.....My life predictably passes before my eyes/brain....I utter a prayer or a curse word in horror and begin to back up/run away from my office windows.....I hear a loud explosive noise. HELL NO, THEY HAVE NO RIGHT TO BUILD THIS MOSQUE!!!!!
michaelle| 8.24.10 @ 2:00PM
Hopefully the U.S. won't let this islamic trojan horse be built. The muslums are not even for it.
http://www.marklevinshow.com/g.....hp?id=6131
michaelle| 8.24.10 @ 2:02PM
Rauf is a terrorist-its a terrorist phobia issue.
GROUND ZERO MOSQUE IMAM FEISAL'S EXTREMISM EXPOSED: IN HIS OWN WORDS: "the United States has more Muslim blood on its hands than al Qaida" (Video)
canuckistani| 8.24.10 @ 2:16PM
And he's factually wrong or right?
TR| 8.24.10 @ 2:41PM
Saddam was responsible for the muslim deaths in Iraq, he spent the money on his personal life and starved his own people. And BTW canukistani, yur one sentance comment indicates that you agree with this radical imam. He if factually wrong, like most radicals he shows you a small part of the story and hides the truth to gain support for his radical agenda.
I don't want it to happen, but I am prepared for the eventual violent showdown that will occur between patriotic Americans and the radical hating vermin that have infested this nation over the past 40 years. And the victor will be God's people, not the jihadists.
Margie| 8.24.10 @ 5:32PM
Sounds like something Ron Paul would say, or has said.
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 7:39PM
And then again , sounds like something New Joisey Governor Chris Christie would say , or has said.
Margie| 8.24.10 @ 10:24PM
The diff here is that I don't like that Christie said what he said.
Flit Andersen| 8.24.10 @ 10:50PM
I think this is the video you're looking for..
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.....words.html
ABNCP| 8.24.10 @ 2:20PM
The psychologst Carl Jung wrote of a thing called
synchronicity, the suggestion that certain happenings are so profound that they go beyond mere coincidence and argue a deeper meaning and
possibly a hidden agenda. Any American that does not understand what is going on with this Mosque is either a fool or is particpating in the hidden agenda. If the Mosque is in fact built on that site does anyone really believe the Muslim world will not be celebrating a victory. The radical islamists already despise us and mock us for being soft and cowards. If we allow the Mosque to be built on that site it will have the same effect as Chamberlin signing the "Peace for our Time Treaty" in 1939. We know how that one turned out don't we? What we need in this country RIGHT NOW is a Churchill.
ASBNCP| 8.24.10 @ 2:35PM
correction treaty signed in 1938.
FeralCat| 8.24.10 @ 3:25PM
Should we even be calling Islam a religion?
Calling Islam a religion is rather absurd if you stop and think about it for a moment. A Chrysler has a transmission component to it but you don’t call a Chrysler a transmission; you call it a car. Likewise, Islam has a religious component to it, but with Islam the religious component is only one of many components [theological, political, social, judicial, military, etc], and NOT the most important component at all as the MOST important component can be summed up as DOMINATION OR ELSE, so Islam should properly be called a Totalitarian System, not a religion. This is so simple. It’s logic 101. Nazism, another Totalitarian System, had a religious component to it too, albeit one arguably smaller than Islam, but I have never heard anyone call it a religion. Winston Churchill even equated Islam and Nazism, when in his book "The Gathering Storm" he equated Hitler's Mein Kampf with Mohammad's Koran.
Religion is just a skirt, or burka if you will, that the Totalitarianism that is Islam hides it's evil [women stonings, honor killings, gay hangings, 100 lashes, etc ad nauseam] behind. That skirt should be pulled off. Totalitarianism should not be allowed to hide behind religion.
Islam is a more totalitarian system than even Nazism was. Think about it. The Nazis mainly left woman alone. Men weren’t told whether to wear a beard or how many times to pray and in what direction. They didn’t much care about peoples sex lives. They wanted to take over Europe but not the world. Islam wants to control all aspects of life and wants to take over the whole world.
(and please, don't any mental 5 year old say, "Oh look mommy, the bad man is defending Nazism")
Margie| 8.24.10 @ 5:38PM
The only mental retard is you.
You lie. The Nazi's did not mainly leave women alone if they wouldn't become Nazi's they were tortured and/or murdered.
And they did indeed want to take over the world. as they were aligned with Hitler at one point.
How is that not wanting to take over every aspect of one's life?
Your comparison stinks. Get a new one.
Margie| 8.24.10 @ 5:42PM
Meant to say they were aligned with the Communists under Stalin, who were also interested in taking over the world.
Publius| 8.24.10 @ 4:19PM
Hey Dan,
Take a look at the Cat's article above and then, well, just think about it for a while, because it is dead on. Why do you people keep defending the indefensible? Must be that you see them as a voting bloc for you leftists.
By the way, we are familiar with Muslims, and we don't like what we see.
Seek| 8.24.10 @ 4:02PM
For a real whitewash exonerating the Muslims, read the current Time magazine cover story on the controversy by Bobby Ghosh.
Anthony| 8.24.10 @ 4:32PM
Hey!! Take it easy on Time Magazine will ya, I just bought it for $1.00. Change doesn't come easy, but I did have enough dimes and nickels in my pocket to make it an all cash deal.
martin j smith| 8.24.10 @ 4:46PM
The issue initially is really about the trauma of those who lost loved ones ( that is opposing the Mosque on GZ ) plus the support of those who feel strongly aboput remembering 9/11 as an ATTACK on thge United States along with those attacks in Penn and the pentagon. The notion lf a Mosque in a building where parts of the plane that crashed into the twin towers seems still an absurdity. It would be inappropriate for ANY religious or Political group to be given that building ( price was dirt cheap ). This is a place ( GZ ) that represents losses of people of all kinds of backgrounds-religious and otherwise. But now that we heard from the couple at the head of the MOSQUE at GZ we know who they are and baqsed on their comments which I regard as incendiary the answer is : NO!HELL NO!!!!!!!!!!!
The incendiary comments reflect the BHO appeasement,apology for the US policy. .
John DuBose| 8.24.10 @ 5:38PM
It is partly a bummer, but the liberals have this one mostly right. Freedom is freedom. But..
The activities of some Muslim groups are reprehensible. They need to be called out often. And the laws against their awful behaviors need to be vigorously and unaplolgetically enforced. I worry that the likes of Obama will not do the job.
Michele San Pietro| 8.24.10 @ 5:39PM
The activities of some Muslim groups are reprehensible and, to my mind, they must be forbidden and stopped. To support terrorism and ask for destruction of the United States is not free speech.
John DuBose| 8.24.10 @ 5:54PM
My point is that ( for instance ) laws against killing ones daughter because she talked to the wrong guy are already there. We do not need to trash our values or the constitution to nail the b***.
We just need to have mayors, governors and a president with the cahoneys to really nail them when they actually do bad things. I fear that some of our elected executives are either wimps or just do not see the problem.
Dave Williams| 8.24.10 @ 5:45PM
As far as I'm concerned, Giuliani nailed it: "If you're a healer, you don't go ahead [with building the mosque]. If you're a warrior, you do." (Quotation may not be exactly right). The developers have chosen to go ahead.....so who and what are they? And how can lefties, tree-huggers, and can't-we-all-just-get-along types BE SO WILLFULLY BLIND AS NOT TO SEE IT?????
TJK| 8.24.10 @ 5:49PM
Amen, Manon. Love this piece, short and sweet. Apparently tolerance is a one-way street, though. We have to tolerate their terrorism and their desire to either convert the world or destroy us infidels. And what in the sam hell does Ron Paul have to do with any of this? Who said he spoke for me? Or most of us for that matter?
Hank Rearden-WI| 8.24.10 @ 5:52PM
From James Taranto, Best of the Web, Wall Street Journal, 8/24/2010:
For a project that is supposed to encourage reconciliation, though, the Ground Zero mosque is certainly stirring up a lot of hatred--among its supporters. Here's Richard Cohen in today's Washington Post:
Appearing on ABC's "This Week with Christiane Amanpour," Daisy Khan, a founder of the mosque (and the wife of the imam), rejected any compromise. She was right to do so because to compromise is to accede, even a bit, to the arguments of bigots, demagogues or the merely uninformed. This is no longer her fight. The fight is now all of ours.
And here's a passage from an NPR "Morning Edition" report today, titled "Rancor Over Mosque Could Fuel Islamic Extremists":
"This, unfortunately, is playing right into their hands," said Evan F. Kohlmann, who tracks these kinds of websites and chat rooms for Flashpoint Global partners, a New York-based security firm. "Extremists are encouraging all this, with glee.
"It is their sense that by doing this that Americans are going to alienate American Muslims to the point where even relatively moderate Muslims are going to be pushed into joining extremist movements like al-Qaida. They couldn't be happier."
To Cohen, two-thirds of Americans are "bigots, demagogues or the merely uninformed."
To Kohlmann, even moderate Muslims are inclined toward mass murder if they don't get their way. Both these statements are not merely bigoted but downright unhinged.
Something about this mosque project is causing--or bringing to the surface--the utter derangement of its supporters. It is ugly and disturbing to watch, and all the more reason to think the idea is a bad one.
* * * * * * * * *
A sign seen in NYC over the past weekend:
"Most muslims are not terrorists,
Most terrorists are muslim."
Michele San Pietro| 8.24.10 @ 5:53PM
I agreee that no mosque should be built near Ground Zero, it would simply be an insult.
Alan Brooks| 8.24.10 @ 6:32PM
"Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 2:31PM
See that ! Apparently , You like your spin version of the truth, faux intellect bloviator.
You don't know me , Sport."
Why would he want to know Timmie, unless he's into youth counseling. Timmie is like a 12 year old who graduated high school.
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 7:33PM
Golly Darwin Obamaboy Brooks , thanks for complimenting me , sayin' , " Timmie is like a 12 year old who graduated high school."
Apparently , you consider me a genius , who graduated high school at 12 years of age .
Now , go feed the pigeons in the park .
Occam's Tool| 8.24.10 @ 9:44PM
Alan is a bit of a feeb, Tim, but I believe he meant "a 12 year old who just graduated 1st grade."
Tim*| 8.24.10 @ 9:56PM
Get Bent Tool.
You wanna piece of me Agenda Boy ?
Come an get it .
Brent Hartman| 8.24.10 @ 6:37PM
Here's a couple of hilarious videos from the "The Daily Show". In these videos you will see the ties between former President Bush, Rupert Murdock, and Prince Al-Waleed bin Talaland, who happens to be one of the funders of the ground zero terror mosque. It turns out that if you watch Fox New Channel, you may be helping to fund the ground zero mosque. LOL!
http://www.thedailyshow.com/wa.....nd-edition
http://www.thedailyshow.com/wa.....mpany-trap
Flit Andersen| 8.24.10 @ 10:53PM
"...if you watch Fox New Channel, you may be helping to fund the ground zero mosque. LOL!"
Huckleberry; if you really believe that, then you & your Imam-asskissers should just STFU and tune into Fox News.
Brent Hartman| 8.25.10 @ 2:10AM
Where did the Daily Show get it wrong, or is "STFU" all you got?
Flit Andersen| 8.25.10 @ 4:35AM
Look, this guy does a comedy routine for leftists. And not the top-of-the-genetic-line leftists, at that. It's boob-bait for the Bolsheviks. It's designed to make Obama-voters laugh. Not to enlighten.
I'm guessing that you, Brent, are not a regular FNC watcher. If you were, you'd know that you stand a far better chance of getting the full version of any story there than you would on any of those dopey network operations where the anchors are chosen for their hair and/or their décolletage. But then, that may not be why you choose your news source. Perhaps a funnyman with a $20 haircut is what blows your skirt up.
Maybe that's why you watch Stewart instead of news.
Brent Hartman| 8.25.10 @ 1:10PM
Once again, where did the Daily Show get it wrong?
By the way, I'm not an "Obama-voter". I'm a life long conservative. I joined the John Birch Society when I was 18. I've been to tea party rallies in 5 states, and the last big rally in Washington D.C. back in April. I nearly got arrested in D.C. for passing out Dont Tread On Me, and Constitution Miss Me Yet? buttons. I'm a huge 2nd Amendment advocate, and show that by routinely open carrying. But the conservative credential that I'm most proud of is routinely being called a liberal by big government neo-cons, who support the CFR's globalist agenda.
Just because I don't support making Muslims wear a yellow crescent to identify themselves, and just because I watch the Daily Show, doesn't mean that I'm not a conservative Constitutionalist.
Flit Andersen| 8.25.10 @ 7:55PM
How can you be a conservative and not know Stewart is a communist clown? That FNC is the closest thing there is to "straight" news on cable or broadcast? That many people are invested in many areas they aren't especially aware of, in the era of the mutual fund?
I'll bet YOU have investments in companies that "support" Obama, Mr. John Birch!
It ought to tell you something about your postings that so many people mistake you for a big Liberal. But I'd start by wondering why I couldn't see that we are at war with radical Islam and that letting them have this "trophy" at ground zero would be the same thing as walking down a high-school hallway with a "kick me" sign hanging from my belt.
Life is about "respect". Forget what YOU think is important. You have to understand what our deadly enemies think is important.
Brent Hartman| 8.25.10 @ 11:04PM
Once again, what did the Daily Show get wrong in the links that I provided?
Flit Andersen| 8.30.10 @ 8:12PM
You know what, Ace? He did'nt get anything "wrong" because he NEVER SAID ANYTHING except a few jokes, which some IDIOTS out there mistook for valid arguments.
Flit Andersen| 8.30.10 @ 8:38PM
For the record, I did watch the first link (which was my annual allotment of viewing for this jamoke) and he spends about 5 minutes telling a
series of jokes which all admit he agrees with the people who don't want the mosque built at that site. Go figure, huh?
But he finally gets around to disagreeing with us with the old "guilt-by-association" shiboleth. As if nobody who was ever associated with a "guilty" party was involved themselves.
By THAT logic, the bank-robbery getaway driver shouldn't be prosecuted for the crime, right? I mean, HE didn't rob no bank! He was just sitting in a car waiting on a couple of buddies to give them a ride.
Which brings us to all the comments aimed at Bush because of all his friends in the oil business, and Cheney because of his friends in the energy business.
You probably made a few of those comments yourself, didn't you?
I guess "guilt-by-association" is fine as long as it's people on the RIGHT are the one's being
"associated", huh?
John DuBose| 8.25.10 @ 1:09AM
Most of the commenters on this site seem to be guided by a rage against Jihading Muslims. This is understandable and mostly justified. But the strategy we need to prevail mostly does not consist of harsh legal attacks just for existing and having bad attitudes.
What is required is to shine many bright lights on the creeps hiding in some mosques. Our law enforcement needs to bring a bunch of them to trial, nail them and throw them in jail as the common criminals that they are. It will take time and money. But it does not require giving up our hard won freedoms.
Therer also need to be millions of angry unintimidated fingers pointing at the creeps who mistreat non-muslims and their own female kin.
Yosemeti Sam| 8.25.10 @ 2:32AM
Um, plant crosses along the perimeter of Ground Zero - and see what happens!
Kurt| 8.25.10 @ 9:18AM
I thought the U.S. was about religious freedom. Just because the worshippers were Muslims that doesn't make it a muslim crime. Like the Germans are not responsible for the secret Nazi SS conspirators death fabrics. Just because some bankers are Jewish that doesn't make a finacial crash a jewish conspiracy. Just because America immigrants killed the First Nation that doesn't make all immigrants potential killers. Just because serial killer Manson derived his violent ideology from a Beatles song, that does not imply responsibility of the Beatles for his gang's crimes. And so on. Muslims didn't do it but fanatical political jihadists who chose the date to revenge the Battle of Zenta (Sept. 11, 1697), persons who exactly wanted to incite a crusade and religious hate. It is ironical to watch the US grassroot crusaders to follow the same weird Quran interpretations than the muslim fanatics.
canuckistani| 8.25.10 @ 10:37AM
Kurt, don't bother.
The respondents here have jumped the shark and don't even realize how they've been played by baiters and provocateurs on the right.
It's the same as the Gay marriage amendment and swift-boating swindle from '04 that will gain seats for the GOP and will continue to lead the country down the garden path.
Thankfully, we still have laws to protect us from ourselves.
Flit Andersen| 8.25.10 @ 7:58PM
"swift-boating swindle"?
John Kerry was & IS a f&&king; traitor to his country and his fellow service members.
He's a liar & a coward.
Your kind of leader, huh?
sleuth51| 8.26.10 @ 3:38PM
Spot on!
Bruce Berger| 8.25.10 @ 11:46AM
Canuck,
Now you are just making stuff up.
Stedes| 8.25.10 @ 3:22PM
“To defenders of the Mosque” – Please don’t bring up religious freedom and tolerance – those are given in America”
No this is not true at all - It is not a given. So I am going to bring it up. We Americans have a sordid history of denying rights to people we do not like and disagree with. Minority groups in this country have always had to fight for their rights.
“Just think decency, decorum, consideration and respect”
I am thinking this way, why aren’t you? What decency decorum and respect are you anti-Muslim mongers showing? You show none whatsoever towards Muslims- Just vile hatred.
You have no argument to counter religious freedom, so you do not want to talk about it. Instead values of decency, decorum, consideration and respect are substituted. But in the end, these values do not trump constitutional rights. They will noy hold up in court. People we do not like and agree with have rights. The majority cannot take away these rights. Welcome to America.
Erin| 8.25.10 @ 4:15PM
DON'T CONFUSE Ron Paul with RAND PAUL who is definitely an American Conservative!!
Margie| 8.25.10 @ 7:43PM
Don't be confused, or fooled by Rand Paul, either. He is aligned with Adam Kokesh, the anti-war freak who protests the war and who protested at the McCain/Palin Presidential rallies. He is also aligned with good old Code Pink and the like. Do your research and you might see him differently.
He speaks like his Daddy. he refers to our Military as "The Military Industrial Complex." Same old same old.
Brent Hartman| 8.25.10 @ 11:23PM
Yep, if you don't support the wars of the New World Order, then you are a freak. At least in the eyes of a neo-con.
Where did this term "Military Industrial Complex" come from? Oh yeah, the freak General Eisenhower.
However, Eisenhower is nothing compared to that anti-war freak, and two time Congressional Medal of Honor recipient, Major General Smedley Butler, who said the following:
"I spent 33 years and 4 months in active service as a member of our country's most agile military force--the Marine Corps. I served in all commissioned ranks from second lieutenant to Major General. And during that period I spent most of my time being a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and for the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer for capitalism. I suspected I was part of a racket all the time. Now I am sure of it. Like all members of the military profession I never had an original thought until I left the service."
That reminds me of another freak who, during his presidential campaign, released this anti-war commercial:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oF5pGXMjVo
What a freak that Barry Goldwater was, huh Margie? Why can't we find more leaders like George "The Constitution is just a Goddamned piece of paper" Bush?
Margie| 8.25.10 @ 11:58PM
You are a perfect example of the Lefty Libertarian. To understand this mindset read this:
"The Guided Tour of the "Ron Paul Revolutionary" Mindset:
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/0.....ur-of-the-“ron-paul-revolutionary”-mind-2/
Brent Hartman| 8.26.10 @ 12:24AM
Scroll up the comments a little and you'll see this comment that I made at 1:10 p.m.:
"...the conservative credential that I'm most proud of is routinely being called a liberal by big government neo-cons, who support the CFR's globalist agenda."
LOL! Thanks Margie! By the way, your link didn't work.
Flit Andersen| 8.30.10 @ 8:47PM
I think you're as full of shit as a Christmas turkey.
I KNOW that a favorite tactic of the Looney Moonbat Left is to pretend to be a conservative and then act as jerky as possible (something MOST Liberals are eminently qualified for) like showing up at Tea Party rallies with racist signs, or posting on chat-boards with ignorant little gems in order to discredit the cause.
Your type loves to call into the Rush Limbaugh show and you always start out with "Now, Rush. I'm a life-long Republican. I worked for Mitt Romney & Sarah Palin, but you're wrong on blah-blah-blah...".
But Ol' Rush, he always smokes 'em out. He gets at least one a show.
No doubt some of them post here on this website, too. Nice try, comrade.
Brian Astby| 8.25.10 @ 11:49PM
All I need to know about Islam I learned on 9/11.
I am ready for a war against Islam. Where do I sign up.
YTK| 8.26.10 @ 12:44PM
Oh for G-d's sake-- all this blathering and prattling. Makes me realize even more that Man"KIND" is am Oxymoron.
Sleuth51| 8.26.10 @ 12:59PM
First, the US Constitution guarantees private property rights.
Second, the US Constitution guarantees freedom of religion.
Third, the US builds military bases in Muslim countries on their “holy ground.”
Fourth, the US military have been known to turn some of their mosques into ground zeroes.
Fifth, Muslims not Al Qaeda want to build a religious center near ground zero – BIG difference.
Sixth, there already is a mosque near ground zero.
Seventh, (for the Christian Right), forgive us our trespasses as we forgive them that trespass against us.
Eight, opposition to the project inflames hatred, bigotry and un-American behavior.
bpp| 8.26.10 @ 1:18PM
To keep this short and to the point, this article is bigoted garbage. Two blocks from Ground Zero is not ground zero and is about as sacred as a strip mall. I wouldn't even care if they built the community center at the WTC site because many of the same Muslim folks being demonized now lost people in the 911 attacks 9 years ago. You never once list an actual reason why innocent people who had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks shouldn't be able to build a community center with a religious facility except to acknowledge that they are Muslims. You are painting with an awful broad brush and playing right into BinLadin's number 1 recruitment tool of a clash of civilizations that doesn't exist outside the minds of the paranoid and racist.
Buster Bunns| 8.26.10 @ 1:40PM
Have any of the miserable daily rags covering the issue of the mosque at Ground Zero even bothered to send out an unbiased reporter to discover why most Americans are upset and angry? Same applies to any of our feckless politicians who support the Muslim cauase. They might find it has nothing to do with religious freedom and everything to do with the clash of civilizations. What we do not want here is the primitive, misogynistic and barbaric baggage Islam brings with it in the form of Shariah Law.
We might all be more tolerant if Muslims openly:
1) Oppose terrorist attacks on Americans and innocent civilians across the world.
2) Do not support Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas or other terrorist groups.
3) Reject Shariah.
4) Oppose honor killings.
5) Believe women should be able to get educated, have the right to go out without wearing a hijab or burka if they so choose, and oppose cliterectomies.
6) Believe people should have the right to leave Islam.
7) Reject Dhimmitude.
8) Reject Anti-Semitism.
9) Reject pedophilia.
10) Reject spreading Islam via violence
But this hasn't happened anywhere on a grand scale by moderate Muslims. In fact the silence is deafening. About the only "Muslims" who openly espouse the views I have listed here are Hirsi Ali and Salman Rushdie. Both of whom now have fatwas issued against them and both face death at any time at the hands of Islamic extremists.
With the latest CBS poll showing 71 % of Americans openly opposed to the mosque, yet 64% recognize the right to build there, one would think the idiot media and nattering nabobs would sense there is something else going on. But no.
Clueless……
sleuth51| 8.26.10 @ 2:07PM
Buster Bunns, you are over the top. The kind of religion you are described has no hope surviving in that format in a free society. It can only survive in backwaters. Rather consider:
Muslims would be more amenable to your message if
Bunns: 1) Oppose terrorist attacks on Americans and innocent civilians across the world.
The US stops building military bases in Islamic countries, the main and only cause for Al Qaeda’s attack.
Bunns: 2) Do not support Al-Qaeda, Hezbollah, Hamas or other terrorist groups.
Americans stop their blind support for their government’s so-called preventative war policy, rather, oil wars. The US stops picking sides in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
Bunns: 3) Reject Shariah.
This is an internal matter of religious origin and does not affect us, and never will.
Bunns: 4) Oppose honor killings.
The US stop “honor” occupations of Muslim countries, CIA “honor” assassinations and US “honor” drone attacks on civilians.
Bunns: 5) Believe women should be able to get educated, have the right to go out without wearing a hijab or burka if they so choose, and oppose cliterectomies.
However, objectionable we might find this, it’s a religious issue for Muslims. I have many issues with the manner in which Christians, Hindu’s etc practice their religion, but this is not a good reason for me to hate them.
Bunns 6) Believe people should have the right to leave Islam.
Again, a religious issue that makes the religion unattractive to free thinkers.
Bunns: 7) Reject Dhimmitude.
I plead ignorance, but I guess another religious artifact.
Bunns: 8) Reject Anti-Semitism.
The conflict between the descendants of Abraham is deeply ingrained and virtually impossible to eradicate, other than by our example of tolerance and protection of personal liberties - not by picking sides.
Bunns: 9) Reject pedophilia.
Perhaps on the fringes, but you find that in all religions – ask the Pope.
Bunns 10) Reject spreading Islam via violence
Just another reason why Islam fundamentalism will not gain a serious foothold in a free society, and hence no reason to spread Islamic phobia in the US.
John Schuh| 8.26.10 @ 2:56PM
To speak of "oil wars" reminds me that oil first became an important economic factor in the world just about 1912 when The British found oil in Iraq. It was just at that time that the British were converting their fleet from coal-burning ships to oil-burning ships. It was also at that time that the Muslim world reached it nadir in terms of worldly power. Slightly more 200 years before, Muslim power dominated the world from the East Indies to the gates of Vienna. Since then its power had been rolled back by the European powers, who were at the same time beginning to plant their colonies all over the world. The Ottoman Empire, which is the 15th and 16th centuries had been the greatest power in Europe began to fade in the 18th, much as the great and ancient empire of China would begin to fade as Europe expanded its power. Desperate to save themselves, the Muslims begin to adopt some of the views and methods of the Europeans.
It was not enough for the Turks, whose empire was smashed by the Western Powers and its idependence saved only by the great ability of Ataturk.
But Europe itself had been badly crippled by its
"civil war," which is what the Great War actually was. America emerged quickly as the rising power in the West. What remained of the strength of Europe was stripped away by the Second World War, and American profitted from it. The Muslim States profited from the collapse of the European powers, and --lest you ignore it--the rise of American power. Oil--which you despise--was the cause of it, at least in the Arab states and Iran. Without the oil under their sands the Saudis would still be living in tents.
ruth| 8.26.10 @ 1:43PM
Did our funding fathers include satan worship in the freedom of religion??? Especially when satan 's agenda has always been to dominate the world and force all to bow to him and call him "the god".
sleuth51| 8.26.10 @ 2:15PM
Ruth, our Founding Fathers entrusted unto us a Constitution that protects individual liberties, limit the powers of government and protect private property. This Constitution has served us well until the early twentieth century, when our political leaders began to dismantle the Constitution in a methodical manner to the stage where we are today, teetering on the brink of bankruptcy with a trillion dollar per annum foreign empire that we, as taxpayers, have to fund.
Our Founding Fathers gave us a Constitution that protects us from any ideology, any religion, any “ism”, anything you might fear could undermine our freedoms. This is not possible if we as a people only vote into power representatives who have an unyielding loyalty to the Constitution. In this regard, we have failed our Founding Fathers. Go green – recycle Congress. Throw the bums, each and everyone of them
John Schuh| 8.26.10 @ 2:33PM
The organizers of the Mosque say that it is devoted to the principle of religious tolerance that is part of our constitutional system. This is disingenuous. Muslims--as whole--do not believe in any such thing, and we have only to look at Muslim states to see this. Even the most liberal is based on the notion of the supremacy of Islam.
sleuth51| 8.26.10 @ 3:25PM
We do not live in a Muslim state. Yes, they are intolerant in Muslim states, but most Muslims in the US are tolerant because of our influence on them. Our love for individual liberties (freedom of speech) and freedom of worship (separation of church of state) are very convincing and attractive to them. Yes, they practice their Muslim religion in the US, but shun many of the unpleasant issues that dominate the thinking of radicals in their religion. In public, they might even pay lip service to these radicals to protect themselves, but deep down they are tolerant and want to assimilate. I know, some of my best friends are Muslims, and I'm a Christian. When they say that they are devoted to the principle of religious tolerance (here in the US), I believe them and I welcome it.
Harrison | 8.26.10 @ 3:57PM
Too bad good taste is a dying American institution.
LibertyAtStake | 8.26.10 @ 8:37PM
"...decency, decorum, consideration and respect..."? Way, way, way too much to expect from either the Islamist or the Leftist. This debate will not go away quietly.
http://libertyatstake.blogspot.com/
"Because the Only Good Progressive is a Failed Progressive"
JF | 8.26.10 @ 9:49PM
I consider building the mosque near Ground Zero a second act of terrorism. It would be akin to having one's rapist released on parole in a halfway house in the victim's neighborhood. No matter how many years pass, the specter of the mosque will bring terror and horrific memories to those who were working in that area - and survived the chaos of the attack. If the imam in charge of building the mosque really wanted to "build bridges," he would agree to find another location or would make some effort to memorialize the victims.
M. Btok| 8.26.10 @ 10:06PM
http://www.gcnlive.com/wp/2010.....st-stooge/
Steve Watson
GCN Live.com
Friday, Aug 20th, 2010
The Imam of the now infamous “ground zero mosque” is a member of the ultra elitist Council On Foreign Relations and receives financial backing from powerful globalist sources including the Rockefellers, the Carnegie Corporation and the Ford Foundation.
This information provides a compelling backdrop to the theory that the move to establish the mosque is a deliberate attempt to further stoke religious tensions and divert attention away from the real enemy of free humanity, the corporate globalist elite who continue to profit from global war and division.
The proposed mosque, to be known as Cordoba House is the project of the Cordoba Initiative, an organisation founded by ‘Imam’ Feisal Abdul Rauf (pictured above), who, in addition to being a member of the World Economic Forum’s Council of 100, is an active member of the Council on Foreign Relations’ Religious Advisory Committee.
The Cordoba Initiative’s website cites “Christian support for the Cordoba House” in the form of Christian publication, “Sojourners”, which is owned by evangelical Christian writer and political activist Jim Wallis, also coincidentally a sitting member of the CFR’s Religious Advisory Committee.
The CFR, as regular readers know, is populated exclusively by major players with the biggest corporations, banks and defence contractors in the world – all of whom are making vast profits and securing more power from continued global conflict. The CFR also exerts far reaching influence over the U.S. government.
Tony Cartalucci at landdestroyer blog breaks down the fact that every single leading player in both the neocon infested Bush administration and the “change” gang under Barrack Obama is a CFR luminary. Cartalucci also provides further stunning research relating to Cordoba House and its CFR Imam, which breaks down as follows.
Feisal Abdul Rauf also heads up the American Society for Muslim Advancement (ASMA) which enjoys a partnership with the Cordoba Initiative and provided $100 million to secure the site close to ground zero for the mosque to be built.
That $100 million came directly from the back pockets of ASMA’s financial backers.
According to ASMA’s website they include the Carnegie Corporation of New York, the Ford Foundation, Rockefeller Brothers, Rockefeller Philanthropy, and the Rockefeller Brothers Fund – essentially the tip of the pyramid of the international globalist elite.
This story is a perfect microcosm of the new world order agenda.
The mainstream media continues to push the mosque story hour after hour, day after day, from the perspective of both the left and the right, manufacturing a controversy that plays on a now indentured fear of Islam that has been cooked up over the last nine years via endless phony “muslim” terror plots and concocted “al qaeda” threats.
Real muslims are witnesses to a vicious backlash, stirred up and served from this corporate media cauldron, creating the impression they are under attack by non-muslims and forcing them to have to defend their religion, and the whole thing snowballs onwards.
The connections to 9/11 are clear, and also serve to enforce the mythical notion that 19 radical muslims controlled by some guys in a cave in Afghanistan were able to direct military precision attacks on America with devastating consequences.
Meanwhile behind all of this are the global elite, rubbing their hands in glee as a manufactured “clash of civilizations” unfolds and the whole of humanity lunges at each other’s throats.
**
Steve Watson is the London based writer and editor at Alex Jones’ Infowars.net, and regular contributor to Prisonplanet.com. He has a Masters Degree in International Relations from the School of Politics at The University of Nottingham in England.
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Out with the Global Elite and the Criminal Government - That Has Performed A Hostile Corporate Take Over of America!
The Government that has taken over America, is not American! Outsiders are running our country!
The reasons why, we must vote out, Establishment Government Representatives, whether they are Left or Right - Incumbent or Candidate!
Make sure the candidates and incumbents, you vote for in November this year and in 2012, do not belong to any of the Global Elitist Organizations: Bilderberg Group, Trilateral Commission, Council on Foreign Relations, Club of Rome, Skull and Bones, Canadian Council of Chief Executives,
Harvard Elite Players, Goldman Sachs, International Monetary Fund, The United Nations, World Health Organization, World Trade Organization.
The reason we must vote out Establishment Government Representatives, whether they are Left or Right, Incumbent or Candidate is explained on this 2 minute News Clip below:
TWO Party Paradyne System News clip:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/.....ra_part_2/
We Americans, who wish to stop the thieving and robbing, of your income and resources in your country, by the Globalist Banksters need to, "End the Fed"! Help Ron Paul out on this one folks! There in lays our freedom!
PS: Please pass this information on to your friends - as - time is getting short, Obama and the Elites are pushing hard to start World war III with Iran, a distraction to save Obama's failing presidency, in an effort to get the sheep rallying around Obama!
aitcherman| 8.27.10 @ 4:02AM
The reason the mosque should not be built is so simple and obvious that even dullards should be able to figure it out. The mosque is a "We spit in your face and there's nothing you can do about it" act. Or more crudely - giving us the finger or flipping us the bird. What a propaganda coup it would be for the scum who want to kill all Americans who will not roll over and play dead for murderers!!
sleuth51| 8.27.10 @ 9:13AM
“It would be akin to having one's rapist released on parole in a halfway house in the victim's neighborhood.”
Your analogy is a straw man. It would only hold if Al Qaeda (not Islam) were allowed to occupy a military training center in the Ground Zero neighborhood. Assume your rapist was a minister of a fringe church denomination during his better days. Building such a fringe church two blocks from the victim’s neighborhood would not raise an eyebrow.
You have to separate the fact that Al Queda is a terrorist organization with followers that embrace a certain religion, from other peace-loving followers of that religion here in the US who own a piece of property, not on ground zero, but blocks away.
They are not building a mosque on ground zero, but phrasing the issue in such inflammatory language suits the political agenda of the neo-cons and, I’m sad to say, the religious right.
sleuth51| 8.27.10 @ 9:24AM
“What a propaganda coup it would be for the scum who want to kill all Americans who will not roll over and play dead for murderers!!”
The scum who want to kill Americans are probably hiding in caves in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia. They have left Afghanistan years ago, but don’t tell the Administration.
The people who want to build an Islamic center on their private property are not scum. They do not hate Americans. In fact, many or most are Americans. Rather they cherish our values of freedom and speech and freedom of worship. By exercising those rights in New York, they are sending a powerful message to adherents of their faith in other parts of the world who seek violence as a solution to right wrongs. People like you are denigrating our values, cast doubt on the goodness of Americans and stir up hatred.