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The Current Crisis

No Mosque

By on 8.5.10 @ 6:09AM

This is one the Ruling Class can't win.

WASHINGTON -- There is an awful lot of blowzy thought swirling around the proposed mosque to be raised two blocks from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan. Frankly, I doubt that at any other time in our history, such a debate would be taking place. People would know that when thugs intoning "Allahu Akbar" have slaughtered hundreds of innocent Americans on American soil, it is inappropriate to raise a mosque nearby. The majority of Americans alive today know this. Polling indicates that with them it is a nonstarter. Now the Anti-Defamation League's national director, Abraham H. Foxman, has weighed in on the side of good sense. One hopes this debate is coming to an end.

In the current issue of The American Spectator Angelo M. Codevilla posits two Americas. The first is the Ruling Class: "Today's ruling class," he writes "from Boston to San Diego, was formed by an educational system that exposed them to the same ideas and gave them remarkably uniform guidance, as well as tastes and habits.… Many began their careers in government and leveraged their way into the private sector.… Hence whether formally in the government, out of it, or halfway, America's ruling class speaks the language and has the tastes, habits, and tools of bureaucrats. It rules uneasily over the majority of Americans not orientated to the government." The majority of Americans comprise the Country Class.

The Country Class or the Country Party has come down against the mosque, and it goes far beyond New Yorkers. It embraces Americans from all over. They oppose the mosque and their opposition is growing. On the other side, the Ruling Class's spokesman is not surprisingly Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg of New York, though he could be from Chicago or Boston or Washington, D.C. Apropos of the mosque, he says: "What is great about America, and particularly New York, is we welcome everybody, and if we are so afraid of something like this, what does it say about us?" First of all, we do not welcome everybody, not drugs lords, not Nazis, not Islamofascists. Secondly, we are not "so afraid of something like this." Rather, we recognize it as an affront to the fallen and to the Nation. Ad arguendo, the affront might not be intended by those wishing to put up the mosque, but it will be recognized by others throughout the world as an affront. Possibly it will be recognized as a sign of the triumph of Islam over non-believers. It ought not to go up.

The latest to join with the Country Class is Abe Foxman. He has done so at great cost to himself. He has members of the Ruling Party all around him. Yet even he has been guilty of blowzy thought. He says that "Survivors of the Holocaust are entitled to feelings that are irrational." Likewise, the families that lost loved ones in September 11 are entitled to feelings that are irrational, he claims. "Their anguish entitles them," says Foxman, "to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted." Thus because they object, Foxman would build the mosque "a mile away."

There is nothing irrational or bigoted about thinking that a mosque does not belong at Ground Zero or at the Pentagon or on the Pennsylvania countryside where United Flight 93 crashed. Americans traditionally raise on such sites monuments to freedom, to courage, to the sacrifices of those lost. Now the Ruling Class wants to place a mosque at the site of September 11. It is the only time I can recall the Ruling Class ever being in favor of placing a religious manifestation anywhere. Yet in favoring this mosque, the Ruling Class does put itself squarely in opposition to the Country Class, so it does have a logic to it.

Will the Ruling Class have its way? I have my doubts. The Country Class is getting stronger. It is not opposed to the building of mosques, just not on the sites of where so many brave Americans were killed by people who hated them because they were American. The Country Class will decide the monuments for the brave. The Ruling Class can eat cake.

About the Author

R. Emmett Tyrrell, Jr. is the founder and editor in chief of The American Spectator. He is the author of the forthcoming The Death of Liberalism, published by Thomas Nelson Inc. His previous books include the New York Times bestseller Boy Clinton: the Political Biography; The Impeachment of William Jefferson Clinton; The Liberal Crack-Up; The Conservative Crack-Up; Public Nuisances; The Future that Doesn't Work: Social Democracy's Failure in Britain; Madame Hillary: The Dark Road to the White House; The Clinton Crack-Up; and After the Hangover: The Conservatives' Road to Recovery.

Letter to the Editor View all comments (714) | Leave a comment

drudge ette obama| 8.5.10 @ 6:37AM

It is not a matter of fear, Blumenthal, that is causing the uproar. Didn't anyone ever teach you, "Never Again"?

Building that mosque is like watching the man who raped your 4-year old daughter get off on a technicality, then hook a book deal and spot on Oprah. Does Blumenthal understand that emotion? Doubtlessly, no.

Shame on anyone (it will be the union workers) who help build this thing.

Americans have every right to define their society and deny this foul plan. Then New Yorkers should deny Blumenthal any further public power.

exactly| 8.5.10 @ 7:40AM

You analogy is perfect.

I would add that after the rapist appears on Oprah, he brazenly opens a day care center next to your home.

Stop the Ground Zero Mosque.

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 1:00PM

Your analogy is ridiculous.

A mosque, like a church, does not inherently promote terrorism. The 'man' in your metaphor are the terrorists who committed these acts, not AMERICAN citizens who happen to be Muslim. Shame on you.

Chris Aguilar| 8.5.10 @ 1:04PM

They can build their mosque somewhere else. They do not need to build one there or anywhere in NY City for that matter. I am so damn sick and tired of the muslim religion being shoved down our throats. I have muslim friends and they don't even agree with a mosque being built there.

R Compton| 8.5.10 @ 1:13PM

Not enough room for the number of "Amens" to this, my friend.

Bash Christians and Jews, A-Okay. But Islam, Muhammed, et al...oooh, hands-off, musn't be 'offensive', must be tolerant and throw a diversity celebration. Yeah, I can see that. After all, what's a few beheadings amongst friends?

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 1:20PM

Freedom of religion means unfamiliar religions are a reality. Adapt.

Gary| 8.5.10 @ 1:32PM

Our adaptation is to say "No!" to an asinine idea. Our adaptation is to keep America American. Our adaptation is to refuse a 1400 year old heresy the dignity of being called a "religion," just because its adherents, many of whom think "worship" includes sewing dynamite in their underpants and blowing up Christians, say so.
Any blowhard who falls for this f...ing nonsense should, in the words of President Lincoln, be either exiled or hung.

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 1:46PM

What makes an American 'American', Gary? If I'm to assume the all-American man is like you, he must be xenophobic, paranoid, and woefully uninformed.

ds80| 8.5.10 @ 1:56PM

Chris Hammond, from the Hate America First crowd.

You have no sensibility, whatsoever. You'd rather lift your chin in a sanctimonious pose and think "higher thoughts".

Most of those opposed to the mosque think it is inappropriate for it to be built *there*, not that mosques in general should not be built.

Why can't you see that?

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 2:10PM

*there* is a slippery slope. We already have folks on this thread saying no mosques should be built in NY in general. It's not like it's being built on the WTC site. Might as well say no mosques should be built where the future shadow of WTC will fall. Or from where you can see the WTC. Or in New York City. Or in New York. Or next to my house. Or my neighbor's house. Or...

Gary| 8.5.10 @ 2:54PM

Or ... nowhere in the United States of America, since America doesn't stand for anything Islam stands for. Or nowhere in the world, since the world consists of large numbers of people who don't want to be Muslims.

Build the g-d-m thing on one of Jupiter's moons. The grim Allah can look for worshipers in outer space.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 3:23PM

there are parts of the world where people don't want to be christians, that argument is senseless.

Huckleberry| 8.5.10 @ 6:49PM

And in those parts of the world they are very busy trying to kill the christains off as fast and efficiently as possible. All we ask is that they not be allowed to build a memorial to their 1 victory onto of the site where it occured. Mr. Hammon, it isn't a slippery slope, if you continue to allow people to steer your actions that want nothing less than to kill you, you will end up dead. This is a very serious tactic they are employing, if you have never read the Quran I suggest you do so, start off with the versus discribing the taking of Medina and take note of how the women and children were delt with, the men were exterminated, every last one.

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 2:05PM

But they are ignorant, not sinister killers. There's a difference. As soon as everybody's a Christian, we won't have to argue about mosques and stuff any more.

But if everyone had to be a Muslim, we'd be arguing about who gets to do your sister.

audax| 8.10.10 @ 4:00AM

There are parts of the world where people are FREE to make a CHOICE about religion and life styles, usually that is anywhere in the world EXCEPT communist countries and Islamic countries.

audax| 8.10.10 @ 4:02AM

There are parts of the world where people are FREE to make a CHOICE about religion and life styles, usually that is anywhere in the world EXCEPT communist countries and Islamic countries.

Carol| 8.11.10 @ 9:05PM

What a great comment. I am sick of hearing about Muslims. Their 'religion' does not belong in a civilised society. We have to stop this invasion. Just look at what they have done in Europe. (520 in the UK) These Muslims have said that they are going to take over the world and they will succeed if these pathetic PC sympathisers have their way. Mosques have for centuries been the Muslim hallmark of a conquerer and if the Ground Zero Mosque is built then that will be it's signifigance to those followers of Islam.

Chairman Nobomba| 8.5.10 @ 4:26PM

Mr. Chris Hammond,
What is you home address, I will check with the city ordinance, and then recommend the Moos to be built there. So now you can be happy and hold your self-rightious egg head high.

new york state of mind| 8.5.10 @ 4:40PM

So Chris Hammond what is your address and were do you live? We can build the mosque next to your house. How would that be? You would be ok with that? Just so were clear, you do KNOW that "Mohamed"was a pedophile right. I mean ANY ONE married to a six year old fits that description.

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 4:51PM

I have a church right behind my house, not 50 yards away. If it was a mosque, I can guarantee I would not be in my back yard holding torches and pitchforks like you infer you would.

loulou| 8.5.10 @ 5:44PM

It's IMPLY, stupid. Stupid in so many ways...

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 5:48PM

loulou,

I refudiate! Poor word choice, admittedly, but thanks for adding your insight to this thread. So enlightening, really.

carolelawrence| 8.5.10 @ 8:22PM

Chris there are already at least 200 mosques in NY. The issue is the location. We are just so tolerant!!

yezbats| 8.5.10 @ 6:02PM

Wow, a human spell check and dictionary.
Never ceases to amaze me.

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 2:09PM

Sure you would – just as soon as someone you cared about got beheaded for breaking some stupid Sharia law or another. Or as soon as one of those barbarians boinged your wife or your daughter. Or as soon as they dynamited your neighborhood and hurt someone you cared about.
But the church behind your house ain't doing those things, is it.
That's because it's not full of Muslims looking for a non-existent paradise promised by a moron heretic pretending to speak for a counterfeit god.

Serge from Wellington| 8.9.10 @ 8:29PM

I bet you wouldn't.

But I'm also prepared to bet my bottom Kiwi dollar that after the first barbecue in your backyard involving some pork chops, your peace loving Mohammedan neighbours will appear in force insisting you showed some sensitivity and stopped offending their acutely Islamic sense of smell.

If you imagine that your menu is nobody's else business, next time the placards "Death to infidel!" and the rest of the usual BS will be brought to your gates.

Disgusting, no? And yet your backyard as a symbol is far less than Ground Zero, isn't it?

Stan Allen| 8.5.10 @ 6:16PM

Chris - get a grip. It is inappropriate to build a mosque on the WTC site, or anywhere near it.
What is so difficult about this to understand??

I'll make you a deal: As soon as it's okay to build a church in Mecca, we'll have a mosque at the WTC site. Fair enough??

Dan| 8.14.10 @ 8:31AM

Chris says it all , No Mosque at ground zero,

Michael| 8.5.10 @ 8:58PM

As usual, the argument from you PC elitists comes down to either agreeing with you (the all omnicient ones) or to accuse others of having zero solution to the problem. There are plenty of reasonable, commonsense alternatives to building the mosque at ground zero, yet somehow you try to portray opponents of the ground zero location as the intolerant ones. And, if self-preservation is deemed intolerant by the ruling class, I don't care; consider me intolerant.

Michael Koledi| 8.5.10 @ 9:51PM

There is no slippery slope here at all. Applications to build churches in many areas are turned down for many reasons including traffic congestion.. No one is granted the right by the Constitution to build a church or any place of worship anywhere they want to. There are already plenty of mosques in NY City, they can always build it somewhere else. The people of NY have made their voices heard and the elitist politicians have ignored them. If you did a little research you would find that Islam is antithetical to the Judea-Christian principles our founding fathers built this country around (not withstanding that our idiot president says we are not a Christian nation). Check out the significance of the name they wish to call this mosque..."Cordoba". Do the research and find out the significance of that name. You need to wake up my friend.

Allan Lindsay| 8.5.10 @ 9:52PM

Okay Gary, here's the deal: they get to build their mosque at Ground Zero the day after the first church and the first synagogue opens in Mecca.

Freeranger| 8.6.10 @ 2:28PM

So, we should stoop to their level?

audax| 8.10.10 @ 4:06AM

Freeranger, Don't call it stooping, call it playing the game with the same rules they are playing with. So a church in synagogue in Mecca in exchange for a mosque at 9/11 site? FAIR DEAL, equal game rules!

audax| 8.10.10 @ 4:06AM

Freeranger, Don't call it stooping, call it playing the game with the same rules they are playing with. So a church in synagogue in Mecca in exchange for a mosque at 9/11 site? FAIR DEAL, equal game rules!

Michael Smith| 8.5.10 @ 2:30PM

Chris Hammond asks: What makes an American "American"?

I'll answer: A respect for freedom and the individual rights of man, both of which the religion of Islam seeks to utterly wipe out.

Islam has declared war on the United States as "The Great Satan". It is hell-bent on our destruction. And permitting its followers to erect a shrine to this murderous religion right on the spot where it staged a spectacularly successful mass-murder of Americans is a moral obscenity of the first magnitude.

Any of you advocating that a shrine to our enemy's ideology should be erected to mark the spot of one of his attacks is a fool and a traitor -- you deserve nothing but a one-way plane ticket to an Islamic hell-hole like Pakistan or Iran where you can enjoy the company of a few million fellow American-haters.

ProudAmerican| 8.5.10 @ 2:48PM

AMEN!!! Those that go along with this do so out of a hate for everything America stands for, or complete and total ignorance and stupidity. In either case, those are not the people that should be making this decison.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 3:27PM

do you think that the millions of people in iraq who have died or injured, made homeless, orphaned, widowed or have become refugees feel that we have a
"respect for freedom, and the rights of individuals?

carnot| 8.5.10 @ 5:00PM

you forgot torture brotha. and you're right. I can't believe the Iraqi people tolerated that through the Saddam years!

Laine| 8.5.10 @ 11:19PM

Of the civilians who died or suffered other harm, the huge majority were victims of other Muslims as is the case around the world, not "us". Since Iraqis know who's killing them, their ire is likely directed toward Al Quaeda and Baathist remnants trying to thwart the democratic will of the people expressed in free elections. They also despised Saddam Hussein and his killing machine as was amply demonstrated during his trial and celebration of his hanging.

Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:00AM

Actually, most of the people in Iraq (except for the Kurds, of course) actually liked Saddam as opposed to the guy he replaced. Saddam also DENIED Al Qaeda operatives a safe haven and told them to eff off and find someplace else. In fact, he really hated the Wahhabists (look them up--NOT Sunni or Shi'te and pretty fringe) who were behind the 9/11 attacks.

No one religion or religious sect had a foothold and the country was very secular in fact. Before the latest war, they enjoyed a pretty high standard of living compared to their neighbors even with our embargoes and lock-downs. Women under his regime also had the highest education levels in the region because Saddam didn't play that "women are property" stuff. Since his downfall, the country has lost about 100 years of progress. We certainly are not helping them recover. Since our invasion, all those fringe groups and crazies Saddam banned from Iraq have teemed across the now-porous borders, looking for recruits.

Jonathon| 8.6.10 @ 11:20AM

thank you Gillian

carnot| 8.7.10 @ 10:45AM

unless one happened to be Sharia

or on a soccer team

or a woman in the son's torture jails

or Kurdish

and on and on

carnot| 8.7.10 @ 10:48AM

"...actually liked Saddam..."!!!!

bahahahaha...yup.....Gallup took a monthly poll. no kidding! the facts are incontrovertible.

Serge from Wellington| 8.9.10 @ 8:43PM

These fairy tales about happy Iraqis enjoying high standard and secular freedoms during Saddam regime are akin to other loony left propagandist mythology, about "one of the best educational and healthcare systems" in Fidel's Cuba.

Both are peddled to brain dead morons, and are hugely successful... among brain dead morons.

They

audax| 8.10.10 @ 4:09AM

Gillian WRONG WRONG WRONG! Most of the population, almost 80%, in Iraq are Shia and they HATED Saddam!

darnhank| 8.11.10 @ 3:10PM

I say there, you forgot to mention how, over they years, Saddam's boys would roll into a Sunni village, load everyone onto trucks and busses and mowing them down into mass graves.

darnhank| 8.11.10 @ 3:11PM

Damm, make those victims Shia, not Sunni.

Landofthefree| 8.5.10 @ 6:17PM

Can I hear an AMEN to your post. Perfectly said; perfectly pointed. Thank you for vocalizing what so many of us are feeling right now about Chris.

gary| 8.5.10 @ 2:36PM

Where is the woeful misinformation? You in favor of clitorectomies? Beheadings of Jewish reporters? Assassination of nuns over g-d-m cartoons?
An American is described by his values. One of those values is respect for 'peaceful' coexistence with our neighbors, the assumption that the man in the airplane next to you, for instance, isn't wearing Semtex underwear.
Everything I need to know about the so-called religion of Islam I learned on 9/11. If that means xenophobia, so be it – the Constitution that is supposed to protect the citizenry is not a suicide pact. It is not paranoid to want protection from "them" when "they" attack your country.
Grow up. Your kind of legalistic thinking will lead you and anyone who thinks like you to great sorrow.

John Navratil| 8.5.10 @ 2:43PM

First off, try not being anti-America.

John Navratil| 8.5.10 @ 2:45PM

Chris Hammond,

What makes and American and American? First off, try not being anti-American.

RedStater1973| 8.5.10 @ 4:14PM

The fact that you felt compelled to ask this question is quite telling. But I will humor you Chris. Being an American means loving the ideals of this country and promoting them. Ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Sound familiar?

JimE| 8.5.10 @ 5:58PM

Trollboy, how's that islamic beheading thing working for you. Watched any honor killing lately or tossed out the sound system now that Iran says music is evil. You are the uninformed useful idiot here.

Kevin Kelso| 8.9.10 @ 11:02PM

Chris
You need to go away we don't need anyone like you in this country

Chuck| 8.5.10 @ 5:10PM

"hanged" Blumenthal is "hung" and displays a lot of cajones taking such a stand

laine| 8.8.10 @ 5:01PM

Who's this Blumenthal you keep talking about? Do all Jewish names sound the same to you?

Martin Gray| 8.6.10 @ 10:24AM

Go Gary!

Right on man!

AMERICA RULE ISLAM SUCKS PIG | 8.11.10 @ 6:11PM

YA KILL. 'EM ALL! FUCK MUSLIMS!
I LIVE IN NEW YOUR AND IF I SEE CONSTRUCTION BEGIN ON THIS MOSQUE I WILL MAKE SURE IT DOES NOT FINISH, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE WAY TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE OF THIS CRAP. DOWN WITH MOHAMED, DEATH TO ALL MUSLIMS!!
WHAT? BRING IT ON FUCKERS!

serfer62| 8.5.10 @ 2:30PM

Sorry, but Freedom is selective...ie no Christanity allowed but islam is protected.
CH you are what you are...an idiot

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 2:53PM

Most of you operate under the false assumption that most Muslims, including AMERICANS WHO HAVE FREEDOM OF RELIGION carry the same convictions as the 9/11 attackers or some radical sheik in Iran. Reality is that the vast majority of Muslims around the world do not harbor violent hatred. Reality is that American is inherently diverse. Reality is that your narrow worldview is thankfully becoming obsolete.

RedStater1973| 8.5.10 @ 4:18PM

"The vast majority of Muslims around the world do not harbor violent hatred". And how exactly do you know this? Define "being diverse". Obviously being "diverse" in your world does not include those of us on the right. You talk about diversity and yet spend your time telling people on this blog how wrong and hateful they are for what they believe. The hypocrisy is astounding Chris.

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 4:39PM

RedStater,

I know because I did extensive polling throughout the Muslim world... No, I didn't, but several other people have. While Muslims around the world have many reservations about the U.S. and its foreign policy history, I'd wager that most do not believe in the kind of violent extremism of 9/11, mutilation of women, or other repulsive examples that violent extremists embrace. 'Being diverse' to me means making an effort to understand the things we have in common with people who hold different views. While I will engage with people on this blog, I will not back down from the fact that comparing American Muslims who want to build this mosque to 9/11 hijackers is wrong and hateful; the same as it would be if people compared every Red State individual to a crazy 'cracker' secessionist.

Stan Allen| 8.5.10 @ 6:19PM

Well, I think it's wrong and hateful to build a mosque where so many perished at the hands of men who stated that they were acting on behalf of Islam.
Frankly, I'd expect Mulsims to have some "Sensitivity" to this issue - or does "Tolerance" and "Sensitivity" only flow in one direction for you??

Landofthefree| 8.5.10 @ 6:23PM

Chris: The most important part of this mosque is its imam. And this man does not support that Hamas is terrorist. He also will not divulge where the funding for this project is coming from. And if it's supposed to be a cultural location, why is he not providing prayer rooms for Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc. to make his project more culturally rounded? Building this mosque so close to Ground Zero is equal to a cathedral built outside Auschwitz. It is grossly insensitive.

No ax no tell| 8.5.10 @ 7:31PM

Just who are you, Chris Hammond? Tell the truth now.

Mimi| 8.5.10 @ 10:04PM

Chris...We have been at War for 9 years! Think of the great sacrifice our sons and daughters have endured. ..many have died, many have been maimed, many endured the chaos and horrors of battle. America has sacrificed fortunes and sacred honor. Why ? For what was done to this nation on 9/11. How dare they place a monument of victory on that sacred land!!! For GOD's SAKE.... We are still AT WAR !!!!!!!

Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:11AM

Oh, for Petesake!

Yes, we have been at war for nine years, but NOT with the people who raised the terrorists--Saudi Arabia! In fact, they are still our allies and we are pumping money into their economy at a rate that should shame all of you. The country we first invaded had ZERO to do with the attacks, the evidence presented to justify the war was by admission false and misleading, and Bush was caught saying he was seeking revenge against the man who "tried to kill [his] daddy" so 9/11 was a good excuse to do so.

They are NOT putting a monument on what you call "sacred land". They are expanding an EXISTING mosque (one that has been in that neighborhood for years and was there long before the attacks) on land they own and have owned for a while. The property is an empty store building that is falling down and dangerous. It is also several blocks from the site.

BTW, for those of you who cannot do the research yourself, the ONLY religion getting a presence in the new construction is Christianity. That is offensive considering that Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, and those of other religions died in the attack. It wasn't a "Christian-only" club, so why not represent the others?

Laine| 8.5.10 @ 11:36PM

The builders of this mosque know that it is offensive to the families of 9/11 victims and now they know that the majority of Americans are also offended and yet they persist so they are hardly well meaning. Obviously their excuse for building it "to bring religions and peoples together" is absolutely false since it is instead offensive. Who but western liberals are so stupid as to buy that building a Muslim place of worship is ecumenical outreach? (Try selling building a church in a Muslim country as a way of bringing Muslims and Christians together). And when you are told you are offending the people you pretend you're reaching out to and you persist...your real script becomes clear. The stubborn imam and his Saudi masters are going to build a triumphalist beacon on the site of Muslims' greatest "triumph" that will be read as such by Muslims around the world. Even the name Cordoba was chosen to remind all Muslims of their ancient triumph over Christian Spain.

And Chris Hammond is what Lenin called a "useful idiot" helping to pave the way for another totalitarian cause, Islam. It's an ideology as much or more than a religion, so stop prattling on about freedom of religion. Instead, it's like letting Germans erect community centers on every American street corner during WWII, arguing that they're not all nazis.

JamesinUSA| 8.6.10 @ 12:39AM

Who cares what these muslims really believe! All I know, is that we white conservative Americans would be a lot better off if all of them were removed from our living space.

Serge from Wellington| 8.9.10 @ 9:08PM

The above post - JamesinUSA| 8.6.10 @ 12:39AM - is a deliberate provocation, and its writer is a troll. It's written on behalf of "white conservative Americans" with a clear aim to discredit this forum as racist.

There are Moslems of any race, stupid! As well as fools like you.

bobbcat| 8.9.10 @ 6:15PM

Chris Hammond says, "most do not believe in the kind of violent extremism of 9/11, mutilation of women, or other repulsive examples that violent extremists embrace."

Surely you are not referring to the thousands of Islamic residents dancing in the streets, joyfully chanting in the immediate wake of the 9-11 attacks on US soil. Surely you are not referring to the silence on the part of the Islamic community in response to the violent acts, abuse towards women, etc. that is soooo part and parcel of the Islamist faith.

bobbcat| 8.9.10 @ 6:15PM

Chris Hammond says, "most do not believe in the kind of violent extremism of 9/11, mutilation of women, or other repulsive examples that violent extremists embrace."

Surely you are not referring to the thousands of Islamic residents dancing in the streets, joyfully chanting in the immediate wake of the 9-11 attacks on US soil. Surely you are not referring to the silence on the part of the Islamic community in response to the violent acts, abuse towards women, etc. that is soooo part and parcel of the Islamist faith.

Serge from Wellington| 8.9.10 @ 8:58PM

If the majority of world Mohammedans are so nice and tolerant as you described them, surely they could convince the NYC Imam that the 200 mosques in that city alone is quite a sufficient number, and they don't need another one exactly on the site of 9/11?

Not because it's illegal, but just to indulge the sensitivities of their hosts.... is it to much to expect from Moslems who has old traditions regarding host/guest relationship?

Please correct me if I'm ill informed, but I I'm not aware of any Moslem voices against this project. Are their 'reservations' reserved just to the US policies?

Cincinnatius| 8.5.10 @ 6:59PM

It is clear that you know nothing of Islam. Look up Sura 9. It basically supersedes every other sura of the Koran and it admonishes believers to "fight all men until they proclaim there is but one god allah and Mohammed his prophet." Notice there is nothing about loving your fellow man there.

Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:15AM

Um, in case you missed the memo, Allah is the god of Abraham and David. So, if you are a Christian or a Jew, you already believe. They also believe that Jesus is a major prophet and touched by God. Being Monotheistic, they do not recognize God as having offspring, but that he DID divinely touch men to do his will.

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 12:47PM

Mohammed "claimed" Allah was the God of the Bible. A heretic's ravings do not add up to truth. The Bible makes clear that Jesus was not a major prophet; He is the Son of God.
According to your reading, Allah is delighted by beheadings and assassinations and flying airplanes into buildings and murdering infidels and all the rest of Islam's nonsense. Now how could the God of the Bible – Who set aside Jews and Chosen – turn around and create a new religion where His Chosen People are suddenly pigs? He does not change His mind. He is not capricious, like the Allah character.

Allah is Satan, or one of Satan's demons. Muslims worship Satan, whether they know it or not. The Father of Lies rules Islam.

Laine| 8.8.10 @ 5:08PM

I second the notion that Allah is Satan. A "god" that sanctions pedophilia (nine year old girls like one of Mohammed's own wives are considered adult under sharia), runs a bordello of virgins as heaven and gives express line tickets to that "heaven" for those who kill innocent civilians, including women and children is hardly a god worthy of the name or worship except by devil worshipers.

bahmi| 8.5.10 @ 8:32PM

Chris, what do Muslims carry as convictions? Do they openly oppose what is in the hellish doctrinal Quran? Why not, Chris? Because they FEAR the Quran, they know they would be targets of the zealots. Polls have shown American Muslims favoring the Quran doctrine over American loyalties. Is that something to deny? In your words, we operate under false assumptions. This implies you are always right about these arguments? Fool. You may be Muslim yourself, you may be struggling between these mentioned good/bad components of the Quran. The deal should be struck. WE build a church in Mecca, they can have their mosque in NYC. What is fair is fair, Gary. Make it happen, then we will know you are a true believer.

Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:21AM

There is a church in Mecca, with 70,000+ followers. Look it up,

There are millions of rabid Christians in our own country that will tell you they believe the Bible supersedes secular law.

Peadar Ban| 8.6.10 @ 7:09AM

Dear Gillian,

You do not present the "whole truth". I do not know if you deliberately mis-lead, or if you are simply ignorant of the fact. While your claim that there is a Christian church in Mecca is true as far as it goes, it is an underground church, and the 70,000 members are an estimate, not a proven number, of the people who "live in fear" of their discovery. Here is the link to the story: http://www.worthynews.com/5584.....h-in-mecca

You will not that the church is called the "SKYPE" church. Do you wonder why?

I know a number of people who have been engaged for years smuggling rosaries and bibles into Muslim countries and doing so at great risk to their safety and freedom. While not printed in the mainline press, or heard or seen on the mainline news outlets, dear, the news about daily murders, rapes, arrests, torture, imprisonments, beatings, evictions and burnings of Christians, and members of other religions, but primarily of Christians, in Muslim countries undertaken by "ordinary" Muslims, Muslim run government agencies and irrational Muslim mobs is sickeningly regular and sadly shows no sign of ending.

The very truth of the matter is that when a Muslim, any Muslim, assents to the doctrine that "There is no God but Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet" he signs up for Jihad to the death against anyone who has not joined him. One of the weapons in this war is the freedom to be free from any obligation to be truthful in any dealings a Muslim has with any non-Muslim. Look up the concepts of Taqiyya and Kitman if you have some doubt about it...and then, tell me whether anything that a Muslim says at any time can be taken at face value.

What kind of a fahrblunged religion teaches its adherents to "lie"? We got a couple of commandments against it...admittedly much more honored in the breach than the observance.

Now, as to Islam being "merely" a religion, let me disabuse you of that opinion. It is not at all a religion in the way we in the West may construe and define the word and the practice...it is an entire way of life. You buy into it and even the way you dress is proscribed, especially if you happen to be someone named Gillian.

Well, I've said more than I intended to, but before I go may I leave you with a fact easily checked, no two. The first one is that there have been fully 15,000 some odd acts of terrorism committed around this little blue marble since 9/11 by Muslims, and the count continues. The second is that most reliable intelligence clearly indicates that our enemy is increasing his recruitment of home grown terrorists, American Muslims to send here to kill us.

And, on that happy note I bid you adieu.

Peaceful regards,
Peadar Ban

Janey| 8.6.10 @ 6:50PM

If Americans want to believe the Bible supersedes the law, that's fine with me! Freedom of religion doesn't override zoning boards or community members opposing a mosque anywhere in our country! We as Americans owe it to our fellow Americans to ensure the muslim population never becomes the majority here, since this great country was founded in the Judeo-Christian traditions which most people, with the exception of hate-mongering islamist terrorists and atheists, acknowledge as being the most powerful religions globally, with numbers far surpassing those of islam. Jesus is a much more well ronded "prophet" than mohammed anyday.

Laine| 8.8.10 @ 5:12PM

Even that deal wouldn't be reciprocal unless the black rock in Mecca was replaced first by a crater with 3000 Muslim lives lost through bombing by Christians . THEN build a church there.

Actually, the intended death toll was much higher, adding up the inhabitants of the two towers. It was minimized by the towers standing just long enough and heroic evacuation efforts.

Bubba| 8.5.10 @ 3:22PM

Mr. Hammond, it appears as though you have no conception of Islamism's aims (nor of the fellow's character who leads this project, Abdul Rauf), but for the sake of argument, let me ask you: if you removed Allah from the equation - i.e., Islam was a secular worldview instead of a religion - would you change your mind? I ask this with purpose. Marxism was a godless worldview, Nazism was not (ariosophy and folkism were pagan, but not godless). And please don't conflate Nazism with Germany here.

Now, would you allow either of their peaceful believers build a shrine at a place of American WW2 or Korean/Vietnam carnage? What it seems you fail to see is the desire to build a mosque at ground zero is entirely a political act by a group who would be intolerant of Jews and Christians and anyone else of another faith. Why not an interfaith building? While I don't condemn their decision to be Islamic, neither should we afford them hallowed ground to promote it. This whole area should be a designated battlefield, like Pearl Harbor.

You should read up on Islam a little instead of promoting your version of utopian goodness. The Muslim moderates would NEVER suggest building a mosque at ground zero. It would be an embarrassment to them, that is, if they were not afraid of being separated from their noggins by the true believers for saying so.

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 4:24PM

Bubba,

Thank you for reigning this in to a reasonable debate. Admittedly I do not have a comprehensive understanding of Islamism, though I’m convinced that the desire to spread one’s religious beliefs is not exclusive to Muslims. Christians have been doing it for centuries, often with violent force… but I digress… The trouble I have with your question is that it is based on a theoretical foundation, and this is a very real issue. Islam is not a secular worldview, it is a religion. And I think that freedom of religion is an American value. The several blocks around WTC are not a designated battlefield. And I think that the site itself is and should continue to be treated as a memorial. I have many misgivings and fears about the influence of hostile Islamic extremism, but I think it’s important to choose our battles wisely and avoid responding to every situation with knee-jerk prejudice. It will do nothing to improve the situation in the long-term. Let’s reserve our ire for violent religious extremists, and allow American Muslims the benefit of the doubt.

carole lawrence| 8.5.10 @ 8:34PM

You should read a book called Son OF HAMAS by Mosab Hassan Youseff .

bahmi| 8.5.10 @ 8:42PM

Gary, not having a comprehensive view of Islamism AND sermonizing about it is putrid at best. To say the area around the Trade Center site is NOT a battleground is pure pabulum puke and you know it. Your penchant for distortion supported by lack of understanding is really quite typical of your ilk.
The financial supporters of this building, do you know who they are, do you know their political views? If you did, you very well would find yourself at odds with your own Babelesque wanderings. Please, arrange for a Catholic church to be built in Mecca right away. It is urgent and fair. We are willing to compromise and show our beneficence toward other religions. But, you have to do your part, Gary. Otherwise, you are merely blowing smoke and we have a hard time respecting you for this subterfuge. Put more forcefully, get your head out of your distal orifice.

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 12:53PM

I know not whereof you speak. Perhaps you are replying to the wrong person. I never said anything like the area around the WTC was NOT a battleground. I never used any words like that.
You have the wrong head in the wrong ass. Please read more carefully before descending into insults.

Peadar Ban| 8.6.10 @ 7:28AM

Dear Mr. Hammond,

In a reply to another advocate for understanding and tolerance of the Muslim desire to build a mosque nearby to the WTC site, I mentioned that Muslims are free to lie to anyone who is not a Muslim. As a matter of fact, they are obligated to actively deceive any non-Muslim if it is in connection with, this is a stretch of the word almost beyond its ability to reach, but...evangelization.

Gicen that this is the case, may I ask how are we to take anything a Muslim says at face value? They... (if they are good Muslims, and I presume that someone who is their equivalent of a pastor is, or wants to be a "good" Muslim)...they MUST lie to us.

So, that they will not promote anything un..or anti-American, will not accept funds from terrorists orgianzations, etc., etc., etc., msut be taken with at least a grain of salt. Then, lnwoing this, what is to be done?

If I am to believe you, we must open the door . It is, as you may say, the American way. The American way, perhaps. But, an essential part of the American way consists in a couple of old sayings, too. One of them is, "Show Me!"

The other is, "Don't Tread On Me!"

These are good things to remember when dealing with liars.

Truthful regards,
Peadar Ban

Pinochio| 8.7.10 @ 7:28PM

I am reading this blog with discuss t.

THERE IS NOT SUCH A THING AS AN AMERICAN MUSLIM! MUSLIM ARE ONLY LOYAL TO THEIR IMAM AND TO ISLAM! duuuh

Laine| 8.8.10 @ 5:15PM

And yet the admitted ignoramus on Islam continues to flap his gums on its behalf. Lenin rightly called such people aiding a like totalitarianism "useful idiots".

RedStater1973| 8.5.10 @ 4:12PM

Freedom of religion has nothing to do with construction of a building. We are free to believe what we want, not free to build whatever we want wherever we want. Two different things Chris.

carnot| 8.5.10 @ 5:02PM

ummm...this isn't about freedom of religion. it's about where a center that is operated by a religious group can be built.

MikeCNJ| 8.5.10 @ 7:40PM

NO.

We will NOT adapt.

YOU WILL, Hammond.

violet| 8.5.10 @ 10:07PM

I dont have any ill will towards Muslims but I think they should be considerate (and show some sympathy )and build their Mosque somewhere else.
Thousands of innocents died there at the hands of a handful of Muslims and building a Mosque there seems like a slap in the face....even to me.
Its like erecting a swastika in the middle of a holocaust site....Its Distasteful at best!
You have freedom on one hand and one the other hand you need to be inconsiderate and show compassion to the thousands of innocents that died there and their surviving loved ones!
Only in America!....elsewhere in the world this wouldnt come up....people know better!

John| 8.6.10 @ 1:57PM

Adapt? If you don't love America get the hell out, anyone "adaptive" to the enemy that killed almost 3,000 innocent human beings, as a combat veteran, Chris Hammond should join the Marines and fight in Afganistan, see 1st hand your comrades like those that flew those damn planes on 9-11, we are familiar with their religion, they want to kill you.

HJ Shmuel| 8.7.10 @ 2:25AM

At a time when unprecedented numbers of civil actions are being brought against the rights of the religions of the majority of Americans, a cry for tolerance will doubtless be unheeded. When you, Chris Hammond, can stand as firmly beside those who wish to say "God Bless America" as those who desire to replace the system of checks and balances with Sharia, then, and only then, will you have a true voice for tolerance and equality. Until that time, expect to be thought of as a loud noise of particularly irritating parrot sounds.

Patriot| 8.11.10 @ 6:04PM

PUT THIS MOSQUE UP, AND WATCH AMERICANS BURN IT DOW. FUCK ISLAM, FUCK MUSLIMS AND FUCK YOU.

Joanna| 8.5.10 @ 2:24PM

This REEKS of admission of guilt as well as a 'victory' shout. It's like they're saying, "We DID it! We got the Americans to believe we had nothing to do with 9/11. THIS MOSQUE is our VICTORY!"

FIGHT THIS with everything in you, AMERICA!!!! To allow it would be like taking the Stars and Stripes from the White House and replacing it with an Islamic flag!!! DON'T LET IT HAPPEN!!

violet| 8.5.10 @ 10:12PM

This is exactly what i felt when i wrote the reply above.
Building a mosque there is extremely distasteful.
I cant believe we're actually having a conversation about this!....it shouldnt even be an issue...
How can the American People move forward after that day when others are so inconsiderate!

fester| 8.5.10 @ 3:15PM

Go ahead build your mosque: I will piss on it my first opportunity

Stan Allen| 8.5.10 @ 6:21PM

...And then you'd be arrested and charged with a "Hate Crime" - good lord, what a pathetic country we've become!

InLineFour| 8.6.10 @ 2:33PM

Fester, spray pig urine on the Ground Zero Mosque instead. Make sure it's pig urine.

Florida Air Field| 8.5.10 @ 4:19PM

What about Wally Hilliard, he trained some at his airfield in Florida? Then no Marriott's should be near either.

Adam McCoy| 8.6.10 @ 12:39AM

Chris Aguilar, your comment "They do not need to build one there or anywhere in NY City for that matter." sums up this issue quite nicely, but not in the way you intend.
Building a mosque at the world trade center site is inappropriate. Most americans agree about that.

Most americans DO NOT agree that muslims shouldn't be allowed to build a mosque for themselves anywhere in New York city.

What people seem to be missing is the mosque is NOT at the world trade center site. It is TWO CITY blocks away. Now we can have a rational discussion about whether two blocks (2/5's or just under 1/2 a mile) away is far enough or not. I could be pretty easily convinced that 1/2 mile is too close, but instead arguments like yours and this article drive me the other way. When you say they can't build anywhere in New York, or if you act like they are proposing building it ON the site or like it is the ruling class that proposed putting the mosque there as a monument (rather than muslims building a house of worship in their area) then I instictively move to the other side because I KNOW YOU ARE WRONG ON THE FACTS so I assume you are wrong on the rest as well.

carole| 8.6.10 @ 12:50PM

There are already 200 mosques in NY.

US MUSCLE| 8.11.10 @ 6:08PM

I HOPE SOME CRAZY AMERICAN FLIES A FUCKIN AIRLINER FILLED WITH PIGS AND FUEL INTO THIS SHITHOLE MOSQUE, GET THE FUCK OUT OF OUR COUNTRY YOU TOWEL HEADS, GO BACK TO YOU CAVES. I PISS ON YOUR MOSQUE, RELIGION, AND COUNTRY, FUCK ISLAM! AMERICA UNITE!

Quite Rightly| 8.9.10 @ 7:02PM

The Ground Zero mosque site is being widely reported as being 2 blocks away. However, if you know this neighborhood, you know that it is not even one block away. The site is literally "around the corner" and 1 building down the block.

The site is near enough for the landing gear of one of the exploded plains to go through the roof of the proposed mosque building and right down into the basement. I think that landing gear might still be sitting there.

Obviously, many pieces of human remains (much lighter than an airliner's landing gear) also were flung to that site. This site has been made sacred by human remains that were not able to be recovered.

Geesh.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 2:25PM

Chris, how far away from Ground zero should they be allowed to build? Is 2 blocks ok? Is 4 blocks ok? 1 mile?

You say they can build somewhere else. How far?

And how is Muslim religion being shoved down your throat? Can you give examples?

Janey| 8.6.10 @ 7:10PM

Let the people of NYC in the WTC district decide if the mosque should be built there! You can bet it won't go through, just based on majority rule. One example of how muslims want us to choke on their religion is by shoving "sharia law" down our throats without lubrication. Americans will never bow to islam by adopting "sharia law" if everybody who reads this comment does a little research into it and arms themselves with the truth and exposes these anti-American islamist practices to whoever will listen. One of the ideals of "sharia law," which is practiced in muslim nations, is muslims receive loans interest free since "sharia law" does not recognize interest. Only problem is ONLY muslims would receive interest free loans, thus making the playing field unfair to Americans, who would be paying interest as usual. DO NOT ALLOW THIS RIDICULOUS MUSLIM PRACTICE BECOME LAW HERE!

RICARDO36| 8.8.10 @ 10:12PM

LET THEM BUILD IT IN AFGHANISTAN AND TAKE ALL THEIR BREATHEREN WITH THEM! WHY DID THEY EVER COME HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE, THEY NEED SAND AND FLY'S TO KEEP THEM COMPANY!

R Compton| 8.5.10 @ 1:08PM

You need to move to "get real" town. Keeping your hand buried in the naiive sand is exactly what the Islamists are counting on.

R Compton| 8.5.10 @ 1:09PM

correction: "head" instead of "hand" ...buried in the sand

wayne| 8.5.10 @ 1:24PM

You do not understand Islamists.

The very IDEA that they would name this Mosque CORDOBA - the name they gave to the church that they converted in Spain to celebrate their victory over the Europeans and a foothold in Western Europe for the Jihad - is a solidifying beacon to the Ummah that 911 was the great victory and this Mosque is to celebrate their foothold for invasion of North America.

In Islam, it is a foundation of their faith that such grounds will be forever theirs and this Cordoba Mosque is a testimony that America is going to be theirs.

Joanna| 8.5.10 @ 2:31PM

AMEN!!!! It CANNOT be ALLOWED to happen!!!
Dollars to donuts, if the offer was made to build a synagogue or church on those same grounds, the ACLU would be screaming blue murder! Where is the ACLU's voice of outrage when Islam wants to plant their flag pole, as it were, in the very heart of financial America they managed to unearth.

Adam McCoy| 8.6.10 @ 12:49AM

Wrong!!!!

Stop spreading lies!
They are trying to build the mosque TWO CITY BLOCKS AWAY. Almost 1/2 a mile away. If they wanted to build a church or synagogue two blocks away no one would notice.

Make the argument that 1/2 mile away is too close given the intense feelings around this site and I am with you, but DO NOT LIE or decieve to achieve your goal. Nobody would care if they were building a church. This is not ON the world trade center site. The TRUTH is your friend. When you lie to achieve your goals you end up helping your enemy in the end.
There are legitimate reasons to oppose this mosque, but your argument is false and I will always oppose the side that engages in the biggest lies.

RWinks| 8.6.10 @ 12:05PM

2 city blocks is a quarter of a mile, jackass. If you oppose the biggest liars, Islam IS a lie. They don't worship Allah. They worship Mohammed in this cult.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 3:03PM

Joanna, the ACLU would not, you really seem to be one of those who listens to lies then to learn the truth. You have absolutely no idea what the ACLU stand for.

Fred Mitchell| 8.5.10 @ 2:41PM

Wayne,
Your understanding of the Cordoba "Victory" mosque is right on. The site in Manhattan was purchased with cash (no money trail) by Imam Faisal Abdul Rauf from his Cordoba Initiative Institute. Guess where they got the money.
You may have missed Walid Shoebat's (rare) appearance on Fox an Friends 7/21/10, when he told us about the content of Imam Rauf's speeches in Arabic (on Al Jazeera?) which tell of his plans to replace our Constitution with Sharia law. Why haven't these arabic speeches ever been translated in our media? Rauf tells Bloomberg one thing, the Egyptians another. "We are taking over America by stealth." Well, who isn't. Take a number.

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 4:21PM

Walid Shoebat is a fraud.

http://www.jpost.com/Home/Article.aspx?id=96502

HJ Shmuel| 8.7.10 @ 2:46AM

Having met Walid Shoebat personally, I have to disagree with your appraisal of him. The article you cite repeatedly states that he claims his name to be assumed, while he most assuredly publicly has said, on numerous occasions, that Walid Shoebat is his real name, not an assumed name. Look for truth and it can be found. Generally speaking, most assume that every coin has two sides. False! every coin has three sides, front, back and the thinner edge which is where the truth can often be found... right where no one is looking.
http://www.shoebat.com/credentials.php

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 2:53PM

It's called the Cordoba mosque because it's in Cordoba. I'm sure the Muslims called it something else at the time.

The Cordoba Caliphate was known for its toleration (relatively, of course) and its learning, neither of which are Islamist ideals.

Abe| 8.5.10 @ 5:50PM

this Mosque is to celebrate their foothold for invasion of North America.

I agree 100 %! Islam has one agenda: to take over the US and subjugate it's citizens to their Islamic ideals. As far as I'm concerened the US needs to put a moratorim in allowing Muslims to imigrate to the US just like Australia is doing.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 2:27PM

Wayne, let's say you were in charge. You could do anything you want with the muslim population.
What would you do, what laws would you like to see, if ANYTHING you could do was ok?

TampaBri| 8.5.10 @ 1:26PM

SHAME ON YOU! This ground should be used to honor those who died, and to erect a monument that reflects the American distaste for terrorism of any kind.

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 1:41PM

A monument is being built; moreover, the mosque is not directly on the site - it's nearby. Furthermore, it aims to promote tolerance not terrorism.

ds80| 8.5.10 @ 1:57PM

Chris Hammond you are an apologist for islamofacism, whether unintentional, or unrecognized on your part.

ProudAmerican| 8.5.10 @ 3:05PM

Chris Hammond is a 90 second walk, close enough that parts of the plane flown into the buildings landed there, really not considered part of the site in your mind? Let's test it's promotion of tolerance and ask them to allow a Synogogue, Christian church, and Catholic church share the space in this "center for promotion of tolerance". Let them truly show how tolerant they are and want to be. What could they possibly base their objection on if they wish to "promote tolerance"? And let them show the money trail to assuage the suspicion that those that hate America have contributed to this abomination.

Ms Jones| 8.5.10 @ 4:19PM

How tolerant are Muslim countries of Christians? Of Jews? Of educated women? Islam is a religion of narrow-minded intolerance and bigotry.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 2:28PM

All Muslims, Ms. Jones? Are you stereotyping them all?
There are those who are. I think though that you prefer to ignore them

Ms Jones, let's say you were in charge. You could do anything you want with the muslim population.
What would you do, what laws would you like to see, if ANYTHING you could do was ok?

RedStater1973| 8.5.10 @ 4:20PM

"Promote tolerance"? how precisely do you know this? I am tired of hearing Islam is a religion of peace and then observing how embroiled in hate and bloodshed the third world countries are. Try reading the Quran once Chris.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 3:09PM

Are they all like this? Everyone one of them?

joseph| 8.5.10 @ 4:37PM

The 9/11 families in particular should be the ones who determine what sort of monument is built. To honor them would be appropriate. Oh, and BTW, tolerance is great but haven't we as a society lost the ability to discern what should be tolerated and what should not?

joseph| 8.5.10 @ 4:37PM

The 9/11 families in particular should be the ones who determine what sort of monument is built. To honor them would be appropriate. Oh, and BTW, tolerance is great but haven't we as a society lost the ability to discern what should be tolerated and what should not?

bahmi| 8.5.10 @ 8:55PM

Gary, read the Quran. Do you have a special, non-violent version? Do you think Muslims can cherry pick the sweet and lovely verses and disregard the savage verses of said Quran? Two Muslims that hate each other will join each other to fight an apostate/infidel that is fighting one of them. What does this tell you, Gary? Sweet love and kisses? Discussing things above your level of utter simplicity and lack of sophistication is very difficult. The mosque will promote tolerance....yes, Gary, tolerance of the American people to tolerate such a brutal and violent paganistic religious cult called Islam. It's like me telling you to wear a bracelet I give to you after I score with your sister. Will you tolerate me, Gary? Will you hate me or forgive me, Gary? Or, most likely, will you become warlike and forget your love commandments in the face of the ultimate disgrace? If you lived in 1968 and were draft age, would you have gone to Canada or would you have stayed and been incarcerated or allowed yourself to be drafted? I'd wager you'd be a draft dodger all the way. You are not a secular humanist, you much prefer to let others fight your battles because you are essentially a coward. You don't have a dog in this fight, you did not lose a loved one there at the site. As such, STFU.

No - shame on you| 8.5.10 @ 1:35PM

Your discernment is ridiculous and the analogy stands strong whether you see it or not.

The day care center handbook, called the koran, is full of hate speech and demands violence toward non-muslims. The director, Iman Rauf, has ties to terrorism and his wife displays a cold, callous attitude toward victims.

Milo| 8.5.10 @ 1:48PM

Sorry, Chris, but your logic is equally faulty. The mosque itself doesn't promote terrorism but the foul garbage and hate that was created by the deranged Mahound and preached in these mosques is intolerable.

PolishKnight| 8.5.10 @ 9:01AM

TomS, if there was a way to report abuse, I would. Your response can be pointed to by the left as a way to castigate all of their opposition as "racist" and play the race card. Of course, it doesn't matter that they're racist against whites but they don't use slurs when bashing them.

Please remove your comment or someone else do so.

Maddox| 8.5.10 @ 9:09AM

I would not have used the words Tom did but his comment is no more offensive than the mosque being forced down the throats of New Yorkers. I understand he is angry, as are millions of Americans.

drudge ette obama| 8.5.10 @ 9:31AM

Tom is probably a DailyKos'r

Jeff Lee| 8.5.10 @ 10:29AM

Racism is the ubiquitous complaint of the left. They qualify it by saying that oppressed peoples cannot ever be racist, as they are disadvantaged minorities. However, a close examination reveals castigation of white people as crackers. Used to express hatred and the desire to inflict violence upon white people simply because of their race, it's quite clear that the left does indeed use slurs to bash white people.

Racism is an attitude that can be found in any large enough group. It's probably better to talk about it openly than to hide it and let it fester.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 2:14PM

"However, a close examination reveals castigation of white people as crackers."

Jeff, this is only a bias. If you had made such a close examination you would have directed us to found example. If you would wish me to provide examples of right wing intolerance toward Muslims, I direct you to use your scroll bar.

Jeff Lee| 8.5.10 @ 7:45PM

The tape on the New Black Panthers show their leaders saying he hates crackers and wants to kill them. Since this has been on the news, I would have assumed you had seen it, but maybe you watch LSM.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 10:00PM

The Bush Administration decline to take action against them. The group can't be shown to have more than three members. No one takes them seriously.

Stan Redmond| 8.5.10 @ 9:20AM

Don't argue like a liberal. Stupid choice of words and completely destroys any legitimacy we had arguing against this mosque. I guarentee you your comment is already making the rounds through dailykos, dem underground, etc. Shame on you.

gail| 8.5.10 @ 10:06AM

If Tom S. is not a paid Soros troll, he's doing a very good imitation of one.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 10:15AM

Last time I checked the vote to zone the property and issue permits was 9 to zero.
There has been a hole at ground zero for nine years. It is a testament to the failure of the USA to get its collective sh!t in order.
I will applaud the mosque people if they open their doors before the new tower opens. It will prove once and for all we need an enema. We choose to conceal our incompetence with veiled bigotry.
There is no difference between a pseudo Christian taking the Bible literally - especially OT mythologies - and a radical Muslim. Their brains are wired exactly the same.
Their tactics, although unsavory, are far less effective versus the 600 ships and 400,000 strong army we project in "America's" interest everyday - a force that Junior used as a tactic in his holy war to invade two muslim countries, and bribe countless more.
The funny part is, I agree with it, but I also know that war is not just a quaint idea for blogs like this to contemplate and sometimes the "enemy" strikes back. To abandon our freedoms in favor of security means we deserve neither - Franklin.

rainmaker1145| 8.5.10 @ 10:41AM

Yet you conveniently overlook the fact that we were attacked by Muslims and that Muslims murdered innocent Americans to further a violent criminal conspiracy cult.

Funny how that happens.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 1:07PM

Junior was an evangelical with evangelical generals and neocon Jews goading him into Iraq....to further a violent conspiracy cult based on fraud.
It goes boh ways, the only difference being we have been far more effective killers than the muslims ever will be.
Funny how that happens.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 1:31PM

By your reasoning, if a Christian commits an act of terrorism in the name of his religion (say the murder of Dr. George Tiller), then that place can no longer serve as a Christian place of worship either.

Or does this only apply to Muslims?

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 3:07PM

Good point.
It's amazing how some can rationalize a rainy day on this site.

Thomas Jefferson Snodgrass| 8.5.10 @ 4:09PM

Also overlooked is the fact that there are ~no~ religious extremists in the Christian and Jewish faiths. Isn't that fortunate?

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 4:59PM

Randall Terry, Scott Roeder, and a whole bunch of orthodox Jewish settlers in the Palestinian territories would take great exception to your claim.

Thomas Jefferson Snodgrass| 8.5.10 @ 4:09PM

Also overlooked is the fact that there are ~no~ religious extremists in the Christian and Jewish faiths. Isn't that fortunate?

Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:32AM

Hate to remind you of an inconvenient truth, but it wasn't just "Americans" who died in the attack. It was called WORLD Trade Center for a reason. People from all over the world worked in those buildings and they represented dozens of religious beliefs from "speaking in tongues" evangelical to "ain't nothing but nothing when you die" atheist. Are you saying ONLY the "Americans" who died count? Shame on you and your "sovereigner" attitude.

Moose| 8.5.10 @ 12:41PM

I heard there was a truckload of hogs going to NY to the slaughter 2 blocks from trade center.

J Phillips| 8.21.10 @ 10:21AM

Chris, you obviously no NOTHING about Islam and its intentions for this country. Leave the Muslims out of it......its not about them, it is indeed about us. The analogy is perfect!

It's time for Allah to die| 8.8.10 @ 12:41AM

Chris, it's a death cult; you'd have to be as dumb as a democRat to not see this. Islam was founded by a bloodthirsty, hallucinogenic child molester and its book prescribes the death of anyone not adhering to the cult.

I imagine the ghosts of the Third Reich are just kicking themselves for not thinking of calling THEIR death cult a "religion", thereby avoiding any scrutiny by the Idiot Left.

jgreene| 8.7.10 @ 5:50PM

Chris,

You are a typical example of the ignorant dhimmi who knows nothing about either Islam or the Islamofascist sympathizer Imam and his Muslim Brotherhood friends who want to put a Mosque here as a sign of triumphal Islam.

I suggest, Chris, that you have a great deal to learn about Islam and its history. I suggest that you spend a few bucks and buy a Koran, Hadith and Sura. You will never understand Islam until you do.

Louise Wilson| 8.7.10 @ 2:07PM

No......shame on you!

Cherry| 8.7.10 @ 12:41AM

Shame on YOU! There is only ONE reason to place a mosque right next to the ground zero...to stick it right in our eyes that they "got us". Have you read any of this Imans "plans" to expand sharia law in the city? You can't possibly be this stupid!... unless you're a typical naive liberal!

Dave| 8.6.10 @ 9:53PM

Chris,

you are an idiot. I hope you smarten up enough to realize taking a stand against the fanatics and thugs of a group do not pit you against the group as a whole. Liberals generalize because their logic falls apart when it gets analyzed. I hope the country class stomps this idea into the bottom of the Atlantic where it belongs.

Larry Karp| 8.6.10 @ 12:54AM

Chris---you dont really know who these people are. This isnt just a religion. If you actually read the Quaran and their supplimental book that goes with it you w ould see that Islams goal is turn America into an islamic state which means YOU, Chris like the rest of us will either bow down to Islam or be beheaded. It means a blood thirsty . violent , oppressive religion to controlall people and FORCE them to islam or die. The mosque isnt about religious tolerance nor does rejecting it mean we as Americans show weakness and fear...it is however, just common sence not to allow your enemy to incubate and grow strong like in your front yard and your back yard awaiting the day when "suprise" you're dead. New Yorkers and anyone else who is supporting the mosque are being very foolish and we will reap the consequences in our lifetime. A mosque being built at ground zero is an arrogant shout by islam to declare victory over the graves of our deceased. It's meant to slap us in the face. The analogies you criticize are sound analogies. Chris, America's ignorance of the truth is killing us and we remain foolish under the guise of tolerance. We as apeople have really lost our way from what was handed down to us from our forefathers of this country all the way up to WW2. Please think about this before being steadfast in your current position on this issue.

E J Garrett| 8.6.10 @ 12:04AM

Ridiculous? I used to try to understand the Palestinian argument, despite the killing of innocent people in the most abhorrable acts of cowardice. But, on September 11, when I saw the Palestinian in mass numbers performing their sick tongued victory whoops, for the very first time in my life I became prejudiced. Let them all burn. Shame on the so-called good Muslims who do not blow up the so-called bad ones. Mohammed was a monster and gave birth to a monstrous religion. Let them all burn.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 2:32PM

EJ, would you burn the moderates, the peaceful ones, the children, the women? You know that you weren't seeing those who condemned it, you were just seeing the ones who declared victory. You really think 100% of them are like this?

E J, let's say you were in charge. You could do anything you want with the muslim population in the US.
What would you do, what laws would you like to see, if ANYTHING you could do was ok?

jgreene| 8.7.10 @ 5:56PM

Let me reply to your comment, Steven. If I were "in charge" of immigration there would be NO IMMIGRATION of Muslims allowed.

Muslim citizens of the United States would have the same Constitutional rights as all other American Citizens. That does not include building a Mosque any where you wish.

When you take the Oath of Citizenship, you swear to God to preserve and protect the Constitution of the United States. That Oath is "inimical" to anyone who actually believes in the Koran, Hadith and Sura literally. Sharia Law and a Global Islam Caliphate is the goal of Islam.

Death to Allah| 8.8.10 @ 12:45AM

Like the "peaceful" members of the Nazi Party? How would you treat THEM? Would you keep an eye on the Nazi next door, or just assume they're fine if they're not burning down your house that day?

Jeff Stern| 8.5.10 @ 11:12PM

Thanks Chris Hammond.....your view is a voice of reason!

Laine| 8.8.10 @ 5:19PM

You meant to say voice of treason, right, to join with your own?

Phyllis Caplan| 8.5.10 @ 6:12PM

Ridiculous? Justifying the building of a mosque headed by an imam with radical connections and radical quotes that plans to open on September 11 is definitely a cause for concern. Unlike major modern religious, Islamism is a political, economic and social system. The mega mosque would be the spear head for Sharia law in this country -- besides the obvious dishonor to the victims and the 9/11 families.

Any one who chooses to frame the arugment regarding the construction of a mosque a few blocks from Ground Zero in terms of freedom of workship or fear of a mosque is either uninformed or is using a phony, politically expedient argument.

Patrick| 8.5.10 @ 5:42PM

Your explanation is totally ridiculous. As usual, the lefty liberal here does not understand that to the people building that mosque, Islam is not "A" religion - it is the "ONLY" religion, and the establishment of a symbol of that bloody ideology is that cursed "Cordoba House?

Can you build a church in Mecca or Medina called "Crusaders' House? Why not?

South Texan| 8.5.10 @ 4:39PM

Most american citizens who 'choose' to be Muslim are not the ones providing the money for this mosque. Many of them don't want it at ground zero. One other important fact you have wrong is that many mosques around the world do promote terrorism.

Steven| 8.6.10 @ 7:30PM

How many, South Texan? Tell me which ones. Tell me which ones in the US promote terrorism. You said around the world so you must also assume the U.S. Where are they? Why don't you tell someone since you know which ones?

Time to die, Allah| 8.8.10 @ 12:53AM

Which ones?

Which members of the Nazi Party subscribed to Nazi beliefs?

If you're stupid enough to be a Moslem, you're stupid enough to be recruited to do any vicious thing the bloodthirsty death cult demands. If not, you're not a Believer.

Steven| 8.6.10 @ 7:31PM

How many, South Texan? Tell me which ones. Tell me which ones in the US promote terrorism. You said around the world so you must also assume the U.S. Where are they? Why don't you tell someone since you know which ones?

Alex Pinsdorf| 8.5.10 @ 3:55PM

Yes it does. I posit a mosque DOES promote terrorism. The nefarious plots of these barbarians are hatched, nurtured and brought to fruition in Mosques. Not churches, not department stores, not subways, not even living rooms. MOSQUES: Nests of vipers.

Douglas| 8.5.10 @ 3:12PM

A Mosque in Manhattan is an excellent idea, I believe it is necessary, and harmonious, but not by the WORLD TRADE CENTER. Most Muslims are nice people, and a tiny population believes in Jihad, but the Jihad will use this Memorial Mosque to Divide Americans, and it will. The Jihad wants to see the USA in open conflict, and I do not. So if you seek to keep the USA united then we must locate many Mosques and Churches where they promote harmony. Regards =)

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 3:37PM

why is their an external need to divide americans. i visit both liberal, and conservative websites, and quite frankly i'm tired of both. conservatives are villified on liberal sites just as you have here, if i tried to post some of their opinions of you, they would no doubt not get posted. america is already deeply divided.

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:26PM

You're right. A mosque, like any other building, doesn't promote terrorism. The imams inside the mosques, on the other hand, teach terrorism.

Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who is planning the Islamic Community Center and mosque near Ground Zero, "...calls himself a Sufi, evoking among non-Muslims a "peace and love" image. But that's not the whole picture. Sufism has many sides to it, including the Koranic injunction to spread Islam one way or another, and it has a rich history of waging war, too. " From the site of Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury, a Muslim.
http://www.hudson-ny.org/1346/.....uslim-view

spectre| 8.5.10 @ 2:22PM

The immam of that Mosque to be has stated things in correspondence to an Arab media service which definitely makes him NO FRIEND of the United States.
Further, it seems that Moslems DO NOT treat their places of worship in the same way we treat our churches and temples. Their idea seems to be one of an armed fortress.
NEXT: Why do they want to build a Mosque just two blocks from Ground Zero ?? They could just as easily built it on the other side of New York City, or possibly in Brooklyn or, the Bronks, for that matter. SO, WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO BUILD AT GROUND ZERO ??
I can only draw as a conclusion that the Moslems want to show their superiority and control over the people of this nation. Their intent can only be one of conquest and control which seems to be in the mind of every religious teacher and leader they have. Always remember they are intent on taking over the WORLD. To them there are NO national boundaries since it is their RELIGION that controls everything.
All they really need to do to win this WAR is to out breed the rest of the world and they WILL be in control by voting their way into legislation favorable to them !
I say remove ALL of them from U.S. soil while we still can. Take a long hard look at what is happening in EVERY nation in EUROPE. --- Spec.

Joanna| 8.5.10 @ 2:38PM

That's EXACTLY what's happening, and anyone who doesn't see it doesn't have the brains God gave a steel girder. While I've never been to New York, I'm sure there are many building opportunities. That they want to build a MOSQUE on the collective grave of those who died on 9/11 is practically shouting, "YEAH, WE DID IT, and now we're gonna bring down the rest of you!"

FIGHT THIS!!!

Allah = death| 8.8.10 @ 12:56AM

It'd be a shame if posters of Mohammed with his bomb turban were to be glued to the front door of this monstrosity every night, wouldn't it?

Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:38AM

So you would kick out people who were born and raised here based on their religion? Remember what happened the last time someone got an idea like that? And we contributed because we refused sanctuary to those fleeing...

Aren't we just as intent on taking over the world and forcing OUR main religion on it?

Oh, and as for this:

"Their idea seems to be one of an armed fortress."

Ever try to get in a Mormon temple or too deep into some cathedrals? In fact, have you ever tried to just walk into some of the more backwater "Baptist" churches in the deep South?

Gilliam| 8.6.10 @ 7:37PM

Can you see spectre's hypocrisy? In his text, he shows how clueless he is, how uneducated he is and how actually dangerous he is, because so many agree with him. He thinks that kicking innocent people out of this country is the answer. His brand of religion is the opposite of what it's all about.

I wonder if he was in charge and they couldn't or wouldn't leave, he would send them to concentration camps?

Thank god people on his side of politics believe in guns. If he tries to round them up by force he knows that they can retaliate! Go 2nd ammendment!

raccman| 8.5.10 @ 2:10PM

Sorry but The Word in their version of something like our bible clearly states, "DEATH TO ALL INFIDELS" not some of them, not certain ones, but ALL OF THEM. Muslims are not our "friends" they have clearly made themselves out to be our ENEMIES. Wake up ! There is a reason why they want to build close to their 9/11 Killing Site, a reason why they want to call their insult to us the Cordoba House, and a reason why these so-called "American" muslims give money to the Taliban and Al Queda. THEY ARE MUSLIMS WHO HAPPEN TO BE IN THE U.S. AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND !

Dave J| 8.5.10 @ 2:03PM

It is critical to understand the distinction between Islam and normal religions: Most true faiths focus on the betterment of the individal. The overriding ideal in Islam is world dominion. So long as there are any nonislamics in the world, work remains to be done. The very name Cordoba chosen for the mosque is indicative of the true goal. Tolerance is merely a buzzword, really an outright lie eaten up by pliant liberal media lapdogs. If tolerance were the goal, the founders would have met with survivor families and worked out a deal for more sensitive placement of the facility. Key issues include: the source of the $100 million and past anti-Western statements of the organizers. On these bases should be built the opposition. We have laws which deal with people devoted to the overthrow of the US government. Any foreigner who enters this country with such intentions, whether stated or unstated, should be deported. If the funds are found to originate in anti-Western (anti-American) sources (say, Wahabiists in Saudi Arabia), there are plenty of legal grounds to stop this project. It is essential not to frame the argument in terms of religion; in truth, it is a matter of actual threat to the United States. Fighting such threat is entirely legal, ethical and necessary for our survival as a free country. A foundational tenet of classical Islam is that fabrication and distortion may be employed if useful to achieve the goal of worldwide domination by Islam.

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:28PM

Islam is a totalitarian ideology wrapped up in religion.

Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:39AM

So's Christianity...

bull-gator| 8.5.10 @ 9:06AM

Bloomberg is the name.

Real Simple| 8.5.10 @ 11:31AM

How can you argue with absolute truth? Of course there should never be a mosque near ground zero, for the same reason there will never be a church near ground zero in Hiroshima! (Or is there? Better look into that...) OK, there are nine churches near ground zero in Hiroshima. But here's the big difference: we were the good guys and they were the bad guys. So what if lots of kids died, they were bad kids! It's just that simple.

Blackwatch| 8.5.10 @ 12:59PM

Your argument is specious and evil.

The Islamic Terrorists hi-jacked four airplanes with innocent persons aboard during peace time and murdered everyone aboard and attempted/succeeded in ramming those airplanes into buildings.

During a time of declared war between two nation states, the US Army Air Corps dropped two really large destructive gravity bombs onto to cities in Japan. These cities were chosen targets by military planners overseen by an elected civilian leadership. Thousands of Japanese soldiers and civilians died due to the atomic bombs--but a million or more Japanese soldiers & civilians and American soldiers, sailors, and marines lived because these bombs ended this war. Remember the Japanese Imperial Government started the war. America ended the war with brute force.

Douglas J. Bender| 8.5.10 @ 1:09PM

Furthermore, the atomic bombs were not dropped "in the name of God", while the Islamic terrorists performed their attacks "in the name of Allah". Thus, a mosque on or near the Ground-Zero site in New York City would and should be seen as an affront, while churches on or near the Ground-Zero sites in Japan should not be seen as affronts.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 1:17PM

And yet we demonize other countries for trying to obtain the bomb - that we built with Zionist and Nazi expertise - , when we are the only tribe to actually use them.
Hypocrisy is us.

We should be applauding the Saudis like the sgt in Full Metal Jacket applauding Oswald for hitting his target with precision from such a distance.
The Saudi's succeeded in hijacking each plane and hit 75% of their targets. Low tech, low cost and a higher margin of success than billions of tactical arms. They entered the country legally and carried no apparent weapons onto the planes. Got past security, our response was slow, Junior had no clue, and the aftermath has shown our weaknesses were profound.
There is still a hole at ground zero.

The lasting memory of Hiroshima is the Cathedral frame still standing in the ashes. Collateral damage, I guess.

Stephanie| 8.5.10 @ 2:42PM

Do you hate America?

John Navratil| 8.5.10 @ 2:49PM

I don't think anyone this obtuse can even know if he hates America.

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 2:56PM

John, I've disagreed with you in the past, but I have to admit-that was pretty funny.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 3:19PM

Yes, I love this country. It has the best constitution the planet has ever seen. I never underappreciate the fact I can wax on anonymously on this site without any fear of the mind-cops breaking down my door.
Islam is a threat to American freedom values, but to trample on those freedoms to make a fleeting point is more worrisome.
The best way to combat extremism is to take a stand that one law applies to all people. Period.

The framers knew extreme thought was dangerous, but they still chose to draft an elegant document for us to live by - a document that has evolved as the nation's participants evolved.
I thank God we are a nation of laws and not men.

We have laws on the books to address any indescretions that may come of this. It takes a strong will to not cower to baser instincts.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 2:07PM

Shorter Blackwatch:

Your argument is eeeeeevilllll. Sure, they killed 3,000 innocents on 9/11 while we killed hundreds of thousands of innocents with nukes. But we were the good guys and they were the bad guys. And besides, the churches built in Japan were not built by the same people who dropped the bombs on them. On the other hand, the 19 terrorists have been reincarnated and are directly involved in building this mosque. They must be stopped!!

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:39PM

Who is this "we" of which you speak? The US - a nation - at war with another nation, Japan, bombed Hiroshima, a city of that nation.

Christians didn't nuke anyone in the name of Christianity.

As for those 19 terrorists being reincarnated and directly involved in the mosque at Ground Zero, they may as well be.

Bin Laden/Al Qaeda Funding Ground Zero Mosque Imam Rauf
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.....-link.html

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 2:58PM

No, Christians didn't nuke Japan in the name of Christianity. They burned witches, tortured Jews, and annihilated the Indians and other peoples in the name of Christianity. By your reasoning, there should be no churches allowed in Europe, the Americas or Australia.

As for your link between bin Laden and this mosque, if you think that's significant, did you know that George Bush and many of his administration sat on the same boards as close relatives of bin Laden too? Nonetheless, you voted for that guy twice. By gum, they've already taken over!!

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 3:07PM

Although it has no bearing on al Queda's support of the Ground Zero mega-mosque, I didn't vote for GWB at all, you know-nothing know-it-all. I didn't vote for his opposition, either. When the choice is between a giant douche and a sh!t sandwich, I choose to stay home with Stan.

If GWB is in league with al Queda, then that's a problem. But that problem doesn't negate the fact that the 19 hijackers may as well be directly involved with the mosque at Ground Zero.

The violent atrocities committed by Christians that you cite here took place when? And ended when? Hundreds of years ago.

Islamic terrorists, on the other hand, have carried out more than 15782 terror attacks since 9/11/01.
http://thereligionofpeace.com/

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:04PM

Oh, I get it. Another republican who now claims not to have supported Bush. Funny, but nowadays it's almost impossible to find one of the 50 million people who voted for him. Similarly, in post-war Germany it was equally difficult to find a former Hitler supporter.

GWB is not in league with al Qaeda, at least not in any direct sense. My point was that the bin Laden extended family is one of the most powerful families in Saudi Arabia, their members sit on lots of boards, and it would be difficult not to be within 1 or 2 degrees of separation if you're an American doing business with Saudis. GWB demonstrates this.

As for the number of attacks, the death toll amassed by our military makes that of the Islamic terrorists look like a birthday party. As in the case of the terrorists, the vast majority of the dead have been innocent civilians. Similar to the terrorists, our war was based on lies. Are you really sure you want to continue this comparison?

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 3:49PM

this makes no sense, japan was through before the bombs and everyone knew it. in my opinion this was a war crime. if you study history you will find that kyushu, and honshu were to be invaded next not hiroshima, and nagasaki. in addition forget that part about declared war. iraq wasn't, afghanistan wasn't, and pakistan isn't.

ProwlerECMO| 8.5.10 @ 4:47PM

Read a little beyond your high school textbook. Even after Nagasaki there was still debate on whether to surrender. In fact there was a coup and attempted assassination of the Emperor by those who wanted Japan to die to the last child. The only thing that stopped the blood shed was Hirohito finally sacked up and told the military to stop. The atom bombs provided that impetus. Otherwise Galvanic and Olympic would have gone with another couple million added to the butchers bill.

ProwlerECMO| 8.5.10 @ 4:51PM

Correction. Coronet not Galvanic.

HJ Shmuel| 8.7.10 @ 3:21AM

Nor should we forget, the U.S. has always dropped masses of leaflets warning of impending bombings over targeted cities, in spite of the danger to the security of the mission, in an effort to minimize collateral civilian damage. Only one of the many differences between warriors and terrorists that "tolerant liberals" seem unable or unwilling to see. Further, churches established near drop zones are there to help the populace recover from damages. Included in the Cordoba plans is what relief projects for victims?

Laine| 8.8.10 @ 5:26PM

Real Simple should volunteer to be killed first by any enemy of the United States trying to kill us because only then does he abide by his moral standards i.e. that it is immoral to kill the enemy in large enough numbers to make him stop killing you. Lie down and die for your principles, Real Simple-Minded.

geoff stack| 8.5.10 @ 12:30PM

No mosque...instead: CLUB AHMED~Muslim Spa and Leisure Entertainment Center. featuring: Pole dancing with virgins in Burqas. Target range, for honing your stoning skills. Scimitar sharpening workshops with emphasis on amputation anatomy. Camel day care and obedience training. One way flight simulator on site. Makeovers, look better under that veil. Fashion courses;chic ski masks and hoods.

Gary| 8.5.10 @ 2:47PM

You've forgotten goat-screwing, farming a desert with a stick, removing fleas from beard, clitorectomy training, sewing dynamite into underpants without blowing yourself to ... snicker snicker ... paradise, explosive tennis shoes (or, Boom-boom Nikes), and how to hide behind a woman's skirt while shooting at nuns.

Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:51AM

Dude, clitorectomies are NOT a Muslim thing. It predates both Islam and Christianity.

The practice still mostly an African tribal practice demanded by males to ensure their women never enjoy sexual encounters and is supposed to prevent them from cheating. But it is also practiced in some Asian countries and in South America. Not too many Muslims hanging out in the Amazon basin last time I checked...

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 1:00PM

Gillian

Aren't you glad you're not an African/Asian/South American? Aren't you glad you're a citizen of a real civilization, instead of some heretical theocracy or a third world toilet?
That's WESTERN civilization, the enemy of Islam. Dont' believe it? Ask an Islamist.

Robert| 8.5.10 @ 12:52PM

i totally agree now in the movie
a time to kill the white men got off on a techno
and the black man took matters into his own hand

in the end a jury of white men let him go
cause the lawyer simply took them through the crime and then asked them WHAT IF IT WAS A WHITE CHILD
all these idiots that say islam was hijacked are liars
get anyone of them to go to any muslim country
and say MOHAMMED was a rapest of a nine year old wife
and a liar JESUS IS GOD
and find out what they will do to you
9 11 was a inside job the building were destroyed with demolitions wake up
you think the american people would stand up for freedom OF THEIR OWN DAM COUNTRY

Jakester| 8.5.10 @ 1:17PM

I have a great idea. Let's all boycott New York City. No conventions, no meetings, no vacations, no sight seeing. Liberal ruling class probably won't like that.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 1:34PM

Actually, New Yorkers would rejoice to have fewer hicks clogging the subway. I say go for it!

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 3:50PM

hahaha

S. Pohlmann| 8.5.10 @ 2:35PM

What? No conventions or tourists? No drunken Aussies vomiting in front of bars? No more Naked Cowboy? They could drive to their liberal nests instead of having to take the M104? Please, Jakester, not that!

stu.reed| 8.5.10 @ 6:41AM

It is beyond insulting but understable that the islamists want their monument at GZ.
However, it says all we need to know about the ruling class and their agenda for America...submission.

gail| 8.5.10 @ 10:11AM

Didn't you get the memo? Tom S. already has this site covered.

Daniel Malloway| 8.14.10 @ 8:28AM

No Mosque at Trade Center, It's like we attack ,detroy lives and buildings and now America can build us something nice just like it. NO NO!! America stand up,, NO.

FSM_47| 8.5.10 @ 4:43PM

If the construction unions are as patriotic as they used to be, they should come together and let it be know that they will not build the mosque. To the muslims 'corodoba' equates to conquerer.

Texas Mom| 8.6.10 @ 2:19PM

Rush had a construction guy on the radio saying the consensus among the construction crews in NYC is 'not one bolt'. That they will not work on this atrocity.

Florida airfield| 8.5.10 @ 4:17PM

Wally Hilliard, is never mentioned why? There is a Mormon guy in Utah talking about Bishop Wally Hilliards training at his air field of some of the 9/11 terrorist.

Curt Butler| 8.5.10 @ 4:14PM

The Mayor and his "Ruling Class" should be shown the door from representing the people. Why would anyone consider something so foolish, as to attempt to place a mosque at ground zero. Insanity, absolute insanity! Apparently, soon to be ex-President Obama, needs a place to pray when he visits NYC.

No, No, No, No, No, No... MOSQUE on hallowed Ground Zero!!!

David| 8.5.10 @ 2:21PM

I think that it is time -- long overdue -- for those mainstream and peaceloving Muslims to take a stand!

Gary| 8.5.10 @ 2:39PM

Both of them?????

WilliamInWien| 8.5.10 @ 6:45AM

Having visited and worked in a number of Muslim countries, I am fully aware that the vast majority of the residents are almost totally engaged in trying to survive due to the ineptitude of their leaders/government. I suspect that they have no opinion on "Cordoba House", not to mention any say in the process. The "Ruling Class" of Islamists are the people behind the proposed mosque/cultural center. They are the ones with access to funding, they are the ones that understand exactly what building this mosque represents and they are the ones who will inform the millions of what it means. Why is it that we in the US and in the West in general, look inward when presented with these types of "attacks"? Why do we have to justify the provocative actions of others by criticizing "the irrational" amongst us? What "concessions" have Muslim leaders, their ruling class, made to the West? The Mayor of NYC is a politician, not a citizen of NYC. He does not speak for the vast majority on New Yorkers (or ex-New Yorkers lke myself) and comes across as though he is on the higher ground (morally and intellectually). This "Cordoba House" should not be built for all of the reasons already stated in the article. Robert Gibbs portrays the "issue" as it has only local implications, nothing could be further from the truth. This mosque if a follow-on assault on the USA. Perhaps AMSPEC will identify the opportunities available to oppose this travesty!

John II| 8.5.10 @ 11:54AM

"Why is it that we in the US and in the West in general, look inward when presented with these types of "attacks"? Why do we have to justify the provocative actions of others by criticizing 'the irrational' amongst us?"

Well--it's not "we" in general any more than it's you in particular, Willy. It's the "Ruling Class" to whom Mr. Tyrrell alludes.

The affinity of western left utilitarianism (the unspoken ideology of the Ruling Class) with Islamic jihadism is a topic that's been explored in some depth over the past few decades. One may wonder what the former could possibly have in common with the latter, given the apparent differences in such hot-button issues as women's rights and the treatment of homosexuals and the disposition of personal affairs. But on a deeper level, the modern western rationalist/utilitarian thing has much in common with the Islamic thing: a shared hatred of Christianity.

When Pope Benedict, in his lecture at Regensberg in 2006, made a passing reference to a problematic aspect of Islam (its radically different conception of God) and Islamists responded with their usual peaceful display of riots and murder, the New York Times came out with an indignant editorial against . . . the Pope!

I can't claim to understand the ontology of it all, but anyone interested in this topic might do well to begin with Chapter Fifty of Gibbon's "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," in which we find a passionately anti-Christian western rationalist in the early years of the Enlightenment (18th century England, to be exact) positively glowing in his treatment of the rise and "spread" of Islam--thus displaying his chic bonafides in counterpoint to his intermittently hostile treatment of Christianity through much of "Decline."

But western rationalism is a sentimental thing different from human rationality, deeply prone to misuse the term "irrational" in reference to those of the Country Class who find the Ruling Class to be not just mistaken but downright preposterous.

Ret. Marine| 8.5.10 @ 6:46AM

I rather suspect the "ruling class" has not at this point even raised their ugly heads to the occasion regarding the mosque. If bloombum and quomohomo have any faith or reverence for their felllow New Yorkers, they would slink back under the rock where their type come from but, as of yet, they are still standing with their ruling class mates in this regard.

What is truely maddening about this whole episode is the lack of respect for those who lost their lives to the 9/11 attack. It was an attack upon the very way in which this country has conducted itself in the process of eliminating all other "isms" with a bad taste in their mouth regarding the meaning of freedom for their prospective peoples. There can be no mistake the "country bunkins, or flyover folks" liken this site to be one of respect for their fellow man. Do the islamist think in these terms, a hell no would be correct. But what the issue has to do with the first Amendment of our Constitution and their "right" to build a mosque is at best fuzzy with the feel good attitude desquising their good intentions to uphold their ( the islamist) rights represented through the ruling class mates. They too have been suckered into the belief that islam is a religion, it is not. It is in fact a political, social pact with the devil. Then there is the matter of decency. I can not think of any reason other than they (the islamist) don't have any decency for the dead, afterall, it was their foot soldiers who did the killing of the innocence on this date, not the protectors of their first amendment rights, our Constitution. Afterall, it is not a death wish or suicide pact for infidels.

On this issue I will let it go to the truth, there will be a reckening, it will not look good, it may prove to be their undoing, it may even awaken many others of the true dangers of the islamist intentions. The iman in mention of this mosques speaks of forked tongue, one thing in the english version and the total opposite in their native tongue, yet this has not been drilled to the point near enough. It is time for the rulling class to re-learn their place in a just society, that's to say they have no place in it.

Siegfried X| 8.5.10 @ 6:55AM

This is a rotten article for several reasons. First, AmSpec waiting until there was a final decision before writing it. Second, the article is just a smear piece that doesn't address the real issues. No alternative is presented. This seems like a typical RINO approach, to make a big deal out of a meaningless, symbolic issue which cannot be resolved in order to avoid taking tough conservative stands on real issues.

Finally it has the slimy, bigoted feel of exactly what bin Laden wanted to start, a religious war between Muslims and other religions. Bin Laden would be very happy with this article -- in fact it almost sounds like he wrote it.

If AmSpec had been honest enough to explore the alternatives, the problems would have become obvious. First of all, any law banning only mosques is clearly unconstitutional. Unlike some of the Islamic countries, we have freedom of religion in the United States. Does American Spectator oppose that?

Second, this article pretends that the mosque is at ground zero, when it is really blocks away, not even within sight of ground zero. If we passed a neutral law banning all religious buildings within a mile of ground zero, would that be enough? Even if that happened, someone could say that a mosque a mile away from ground zero, was AT ground zero, and building it was spitting in the faces of the 9/11 victims. So there would be more articles, and even if we kept religious buildings two or three miles away from ground zero, someone could complain about that.

Appleby| 8.5.10 @ 7:07AM

There is no intention here of banning mosques. There is intention to ban this particular mosque at this particular location.

Would you argue that it would be proper to build a mosque at Auschwitz?

Alert1201| 8.5.10 @ 7:46AM

What a dopey comment.

He should not have written it because he proposes no alternative? How about not building the mosque? Is that not an alternative? Sure it may be implied; you may have to read between the lines, but its there.

Secondly, we know the mosque is not at ground zero. We know its two blocks away. Did you not read the article. You act like this is some big secrete, something that is being slyly hidden from the argument. No, we know where its going to be located. How do we know? Because he says so in the first paragraph!

Third, to say we are making a big idea of a "meaningless, symbolic issue" is idiotic. Symbolism is everything, especially in the Muslim culture and to those who died and witnessed the events of that day.

Fourth, ... never mind.

Alert1201| 8.5.10 @ 7:47AM

Appleby,
I hope you realize that my comments were not about your comment but to Siegfried X's original. Clicked the wrong link.

Appleby| 8.5.10 @ 10:57AM

OK thanks.

drudge ette obama| 8.5.10 @ 7:56AM

Consider this. This is not just a building. It is not a museum. It is the place of worship for a religion whose followers promoted, cheered, leapt with joy, and felt vindicated at the 9-11 murders. Their stinking bells will be heard through the streets, probably during some 9-11 commemorance ceremony where names of dead are read aloud.

They will be praying to their self-described prophet - not a god - for more such events to happen.

On a positive note, it is less likely they will choose this site again, less they suffer building damage. Does Blumenthal feel safer if the mosque is built? Is he signaling the Islamist terrorists that we will welcome the mosque if you don't come back to New York? What a fool all these supporters of the mosque are. Claim your right people to define and protect your world.

KyMouse| 8.5.10 @ 9:31AM

Remember how quickly the TV networks got rid of the 9/11 footage that showed the so-called Palestinians dancing in the streets and handing out candy? I was able to buy a "souvenir" tabloid about 9/11 that showed a still photo from that obscene street party; every 9/11 anniversary, I look at it again, just so I won't forget.

Perhaps one good thing that might come out of all of the current controversy is opportunities to point out that churches and synagogues are not allowed to be built in Muslim cities such as Mecca. Let's keep pointing out how intolerant, judgmental and non-diverse THAT is.

This is beyond repulsive| 8.5.10 @ 10:00AM

Does Blumenthal feel safer if the mosque is built? Is he signaling the Islamist terrorists that we will welcome the mosque if you don't come back to New York?

That is EXACTLY it. Blumenthal thinks it safer to spit in the faces of the families of those who were murdered than to risk an attack because he won't support the building of the mosque. The family members of the murdered won't attack because this reprehensible building goes up, but take a guess who WILL if they don't get their way?

gypsy| 8.5.10 @ 8:18AM

it only takes one side to make a war, dumbass. Osama Bin Laden declared war on us over ten years, but clueless morons like you STILL haven't noticed.

When will you figure it out? When they get a law passed saying your momma has to wear a burqa in public, and she's not allowed to drive or have a bank account? When they blow up your local movie theater with a car bomb? When their knife is actually at your throat?

"Siegfried": such a manly name for a cowardly punk to hide behind

Stephanie| 8.5.10 @ 2:56PM

I like you Gypsy. You don't mince words.

Mimi| 8.5.10 @ 3:30PM

I like you too Gypsy. Why? The way you pop it out there and tell it like it is... your blunt, bold and truthful !......And funny. You put us all to shame cause you don't mince words.....GO GIRL!!

Tom| 8.5.10 @ 8:34AM

Actually it is much less than a mile to the proposed Mosque. Closer to a 1/10 of a mile than a mile, depending on where you want to place the edge of ground zero. I've walked it in less than 90 seconds.

Gillian | 8.6.10 @ 12:58AM

And there are other religious buildings in the area... Your point is?

The proposed mosque is right next to the older one. But where does the line stop? Where the buildings fell? Where some of the rubble spilled over? Where the dust cloud blew over several city blocks? New Jersey where some people carried the dust on their clothing? How about in my hometown where one of the plane passengers came from? You cannot expand into infinity, which is what too many people are trying to do.

Jeremiah| 8.5.10 @ 8:48AM

I am coming to believe that Islam is a unique phenomenon: ;less a religion than a political entity with a profoundly religious element to it. Nothing wrong with that, except that it insists on being at war with us.

Sorry Siegfried, we have freedom of assembly, too. Had the Nazis wished to have built a memorial to Hitler we would have recognized it as an affront by a hostile power, not an exercise of freedom.

This is an affront. It is a particularly perilous moment for 'moderate' Muslims. They know it is an affront so they have to choose. Will they rise to put a stop to this or just go with the flow and celebrate a victory that doesn't immediately cost them anything.

I rather like the whole business. It clarifies that we ARE at war with Islam. And when we have a leader that blasts the mosque to smithereens we will know that we are finally taking the war seriously.

Please don't bother explaining to me how many good Muslims there are. I know. And they, like the good Aztecs that were captive to a religion that largely murdered them centuries ago, will be liberated from a 'religion' that exploits and murders them more even than it does infidels, just as the Aztecs were. If there is an institutionally moderate branch of Islam, now is the time for it to exert itself. Otherwise, as aggressive as it now seems, Islam is doomed to perish a a murderous, satanic deception.

Stephanie| 8.5.10 @ 8:52AM

No Z, he wrote it is slated to be built 2 blocks from ground zero. Let them move it to another location. Let THEM show the sensitivity that they say we should show them. Bastards.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 9:11AM

Siegfried,
If I am not mistaken there are dozens of pre-existing mosques in the New York metroplex. As a matter of fact there are mosques already built in Manhatten. So, you raise a strawman. Your hatred for all things Bush overcomes your sensibilities.

As one who has traveled to Europe, as well as lived amongst the natives in the Middle East I can tell you how Islam spreads. You see it as just a "religion". And despite the 9/11 attacks (which caused joyfull celebration amongst the Muslims from the West Bank, Hamburg, London, to Pakistan, and Jakarta) you continue to see this as just a "religious thing".

You should visit Paris sometime. Don't take a group tour, but go yourself. Hire a guide. He will, if he is a good guide, advise you to avoid the suburbs of Paris at all cost. They are all Muslim, and Sharia rules. Ditto, if you go to London. There are no several large enclaves of London where Sharia reigns. This spread of Sharia includes large sections of Amsterdam, Ede, Brussells, Marsailles, Antwerp, as well as Memlo, portions of both Scandanavia and Italy.

The Islamic activists use every trick in the book to spread thier authority. In Europe as well as North America they play the race and victim card to the hilt. They play on the political correctness and anti-christian antipathy of the governiing elite to quash debtae and bad press. In Italy, the late journalist and Marxist Oriana Fallaci was indicted and convicted of hate crimes. Her offense? A book critical of Islam. Theo van Gogh was litterally cut down in Amsterdam by a Muslim. His offsense? Producing a film which highlighted the oppression of females in Muslim societies. In Canada, journalists are routinely prosecuted for hate crimes (ie reporting on features of Islam that are not to the imans liking). And even in the US, the American Academy of Pediatrics recently endorsed to procedure of child female mutlilation (within the week, they quietly rescinded the endorsement after a wave of protest).

In a series of polls over the last 5-8 years across both North America and Europe, over 65% of Muslims say they prefer Sharia over civic law, despite the freedoms and benefits that our civic laws give them. Again, in Europe Sharia spreads to places that were unheard of 10 years ago. In the UK women who commute through Islamic neighborhoods (and not just in London) wear hijabs. It is better to wear the damn head piece than to be constantly harrassed by the religious police. Catholic schools in the UK, who made the mistake to take in large numbers of Islamic students, are now being forced to teach Muslim religious classes. And none of these changes came about violently. The large majorities in Europe allow it.

This move by New York Muslim clerics is so obvious that only an idealogue cannot see it. No matter what, the clerics and the lawyers at CAIR have proven that the governing elite of New York can easily be rolled. I am not as optimistic as RET. I think the mosque will go ahead as scheduled. As within 2-3 decades the Manhatten we now know will be a thing of the past.

roadrage| 8.5.10 @ 1:26PM

Well put, JP. One of the "strengths" of this religion is that it ideally acts and sees itself a community of believers - like Christian Europe in the Middle Ages, only more so . It is unlikely to generate its own Enlightenment that would lead to a more rational, live-and-let-live view of human society. It is a community that needs to control its space, every detail of the lives of its followers, the status and comfort level of non-believers, and much else.

Building the mosque is a message, and control of the message is the heart of terrorism: The most active, well-funded elements of this community (and not a handful of fanatics) want to wave a reminder of recent and future triumphs for their followers - and spit in their enemy's eye. Is it any accident that they reached back to past glories to name this place "Cordoba House" - celebrating Islam's seizure of Spain from its Christian inhabitants after seizing Christian North Africa? Rather than a symbol of a golden age of tolerance when Muslim, Christian, and Jew shared a high civilization, the name can just as easily evoke radical dreams of reestablishing the Caliphate. These folks are as shamelessly chauvinistic and ethnocentric as the Ruling Class folks are naive.

Finally, who is paying for this? Follow the money.

The chattering classes may well think they will be the last to feel the consequences of their feel-good ideals.

roadrage| 8.5.10 @ 1:26PM

Well put, JP. One of the "strengths" of this religion is that it ideally acts and sees itself a community of believers - like Christian Europe in the Middle Ages, only more so . It is unlikely to generate its own Enlightenment that would lead to a more rational, live-and-let-live view of human society. It is a community that needs to control its space, every detail of the lives of its followers, the status and comfort level of non-believers, and much else.

Building the mosque is a message, and control of the message is the heart of terrorism: The most active, well-funded elements of this community (and not a handful of fanatics) want to wave a reminder of recent and future triumphs for their followers - and spit in their enemy's eye. Is it any accident that they reached back to past glories to name this place "Cordoba House" - celebrating Islam's seizure of Spain from its Christian inhabitants after seizing Christian North Africa? Rather than a symbol of a golden age of tolerance when Muslim, Christian, and Jew shared a high civilization, the name can just as easily evoke radical dreams of reestablishing the Caliphate. These folks are as shamelessly chauvinistic and ethnocentric as the Ruling Class folks are naive.

Finally, who is paying for this? Follow the money.

The chattering classes may well think they will be the last to feel the consequences of their feel-good ideals.

roadrage| 8.5.10 @ 1:26PM

Well put, JP. One of the "strengths" of this religion is that it ideally acts and sees itself a community of believers - like Christian Europe in the Middle Ages, only more so . It is unlikely to generate its own Enlightenment that would lead to a more rational, live-and-let-live view of human society. It is a community that needs to control its space, every detail of the lives of its followers, the status and comfort level of non-believers, and much else.

Building the mosque is a message, and control of the message is the heart of terrorism: The most active, well-funded elements of this community (and not a handful of fanatics) want to wave a reminder of recent and future triumphs for their followers - and spit in their enemy's eye. Is it any accident that they reached back to past glories to name this place "Cordoba House" - celebrating Islam's seizure of Spain from its Christian inhabitants after seizing Christian North Africa? Rather than a symbol of a golden age of tolerance when Muslim, Christian, and Jew shared a high civilization, the name can just as easily evoke radical dreams of reestablishing the Caliphate. These folks are as shamelessly chauvinistic and ethnocentric as the Ruling Class folks are naive.

Finally, who is paying for this? Follow the money.

The chattering classes may well think they will be the last to feel the consequences of their feel-good ideals.

Bubba| 8.5.10 @ 3:35PM

Spot on JP. I would encourage anyone to read "While Europe Slept" by Bawer, who is a gay liberal living in Europe. He is sounding the alarm, even if it smacks at times of shrill effeminacy. Even better historical books are:
"Militant Islam Reaches America" - Pipes
"Light in the Shadow of Jihad" - Zacharias
"The West's Last Chance" - Blankley
"America Alone" - Steyn
"The Clash of Civilizations" - Huntington
"From Plato to NATO" - Gress

HJ Shmuel| 8.7.10 @ 3:52AM

Thank you JP. Now that maybe three liberals are becoming aware of "Sharia", we only have to get them to understand the Islamic concept of "hudnah". Then perhaps they would be within a million miles of understanding who and what they are trying to support.

DDN| 8.5.10 @ 10:14AM

I say that one mosque can be built (far from our places of national signifigance) for each new church in Saudi Arabia or Egypt (that goes for Syria, Iran, so-called Palestine, etc.).

rainmaker1145| 8.5.10 @ 10:44AM

When we have rib joints and churches and synagogues in Mecca I'll be willing to listen to your complaint. The fact is that Muslims are an intolerant, bigoted conspiracy based upon a religion. That's been the actual history of this "movement" for more than a thousand years. They are no more interested in peace and love for all than they are in allowing women to live their lives as they see fit.

ProudAmerican| 8.5.10 @ 1:47PM

Here is an alternative : Have the builders/funders of the mosque agree to having one floor occupied/owned by a Synagogue and another floor by a non-demoninational Christian organization. If it would mess up their plans for the 15 floors then allow a Synogogue and Christian organization to simply add 2 floors to the existing plans, something done simply by the designers. If in fact this is really meant to be a symbol of unity and reconciliation they will have NO objection to truly making it a symbol of true unity and tolerance. If they object to it. then it PROVES their intention is that which decent Americans fear it is, nothing but a symbol of their victory at our expense.

figusjanus| 8.5.10 @ 2:34PM

Your an IDIOT! I hate to use such language because it shows a lack or limited use of the English language.
First of the problem like so many others is that the wound of 9/11 is still fresh. The Muslim world CHEERED when they heard of their success in the bombings at the world trade centers. Not just a some small group but many thousands did this.
You talk about being fare to every religion? Well lets see you post a picture of Mohamed,.....huh?
The whole damn Muslim world will rise up. Again not just a dozen or so high afluent individuals. Whole cities of Muslims go insane!!!! Is that just a fringe group, ....well Spanky, give me an answer.
I lost several friends in those Towers!!! I almost lost my wife and sister that day only through shear luck did they not go down there that day. I waited for the whole day because phones were down. Would you like to sit a work and wonder about your family. I think not Spanky! I was to visit the observation Towers the next day!
We constantly give ground saying its for freedoms sack. They spit in our faces. Like a great man said" Turn the other cheek". Well i say it DOES NOT mean you can not duck when the next slap comes your way!
We will give our freedom up one small step at a time until there is none left. When do you stop a criminal from shooting you? After he pulls the trigger? During the process of pulling the trigger? Or do you smite him when you know his intention is to kill or harm you or your own. Well i know my answer and everyone else knows yours.
Thanks for the stupid remark Spanky. I will cling to my religion and my guns waiting for you and your friends to come to my home ready to distribute my possessions out to everyone else!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 3:58PM

the reason articles like this are written is to inflame the masses, to get them worked up to the point that when the near total economic collapse of the us happens in 2012-2014, and the no doubt total collapse by 2020 or so, it will be on them before they notice. the prepared always come out all right. so folks keep fretting over this at your own peril.

Joe| 8.5.10 @ 7:18AM

First, we need to remind ourselves that we are fighting against an ideology disguised as a religion. Do we need to see the pictures of the bodies flying out of the World Trade Towers again? No one in their right mind, religious or not, would think that God would promote and celebrate beheading, blowing up, stoning etc. innocents. Wake up, America.

ton| 8.5.10 @ 9:04AM

"No one in their right mind, religious or not, would think that God would promote and celebrate beheading, blowing up, stoning etc. innocents. "

Uhhhh . . . maybe the Koran? Maybe followers of The Prophet?

JoeJazz2000| 8.5.10 @ 10:17AM

He said, " ... in their right mind, .... ." There, fixed.

blackwatch| 8.5.10 @ 1:19PM

If Satan wanted to form his own religion, to counter God, wouldn't he start a religion that resembles a real religion---vs. outright Satan worship?

What would be its tenets?

1. worship me five times a day
2. kill apostates
3. lie to or kill infidels with impunity
4. don't befriend Jews or Christians --hide behind a rock and ambush them

where's the love??

ProudAmerican| 8.5.10 @ 2:31PM

Well said blackwatch. Satan twisted and quoted scripture to Christ to try to get his way, and we think he will not have people twist and quote our Constitution to the same ends? Our so called "leaders" are so consumed with being politically correct they will give evil exactly what it wants. They are complete and total morons and every one of the career politicians need to be voted out, term limits voted in, lifetime benefits done away with and salaries capped at whatever the "average" American salary is each year, then regular everyday American citizens that love this country and truly want to "serve" voted in. It makes me sick when those in power in Washington talk about their "service". The only ones they serve are themselves. How many of them would keep running for office if all the "perks" were taken away and salary capped somewhere in the $40,000/yr range? My guess is none of them.

Gary| 8.5.10 @ 1:39PM

Quote: "... in their right mind ..." has meaning beyond Leftist rant. Just because you follow some moron who calls himself a prophet doesn't make him one, or make the follower right.

Jim Jones called himself a prophet. If only Muslims would drink the grape juice en mass, the world would be ... mmmm ... less explosive.

Maddox| 8.5.10 @ 9:20AM

Yes! And it is astounding that we are fighting against decision forced on us by our own government that support this evil ideology. The horrible sights on 9/11 are reminders of that evil and are rarely seen in liberal media, they are contrary to their agenda. We must never forget.

DDN| 8.5.10 @ 10:17AM

I think Americans would be shocked if we truly knew how Middle East oil money is being used to influence our political system - both to get liberal candidates in office and bribe them while there. Also to influence academia. I sincerely hope the truth comes out.

Brian Mc| 8.5.10 @ 7:30AM

How many religions encourage its adherants to murder? If same is against the tenets that set the foundation for a country, how can that same country allow for any level of tolerance for that intolerance? It's akin to inviting the rapist of your wife and daughters over for supper.

martin j smith| 8.5.10 @ 7:33AM

The recent initiative in Missouri I really hope is a sign of things to come. By a 3-1 majority Obama care was rejected. The courts can rule all thjey want on this initiative but the results stand out Let that be a lesson to VOTE NON. Every vote against the Socialists is a vote against the MOSQUE. So do it !!!!!!!!!!!!! Its the only way left-right ?

Jim O'Brien| 8.5.10 @ 7:54AM

Building a mosque at ground zero is the ummah's way of sticking its middle finger in the face of the United States. Not only did we kill 3,000 Americans and damage your economy, now we are going to take over the United States with help from your liberal effete elite in academia, Congress, the Obama administration, and quite possibly the Supreme Court.

Stephanie| 8.5.10 @ 8:54AM

"and quite possibly the Supreme Court"
Now that we will have the man/woman liberal Kagan put on the court this week.

ggoblue| 8.5.10 @ 7:57AM

those in the ruling class are too stupid to know right from wrong...and that is how we should brand them...stupid stupid stupid, on issue after issue.

sarah palin did more damage with her cajones remark than all the republicans added together...notice how her remark has gone unanswered by the white house?

she may be female but she needs a wheelbarrow to push her cajones ahead of her when she walks...

89 days till we kick the rulers in the balls

Melvin| 8.5.10 @ 7:58AM

Does anyone of you remember how a person that was on the ground floor of the World Trade Center who was not aware at the carnage that was happening above them.
They where aware of danger and having to get out of the building became acutely aware of a popping sound outside the entrance. One person described it as, "Like popcorn popping in the microwave." But in reality as they reached the outside they realized the horror was not popcorn being popped, it was human bodies hitting the sidewalk, and exploding from the fall.
These Americans would rather jump out of a multi story building than having to suffer and die through a thousand degrees fire fueled by jet fuel.
I witnessed as many of us did, pregnant women jumping out of the World Trade Center and having themselves impaled on what was below.
This was all before the networks sanitized the video of the destruction of the World Trade Center.
As I draft this post I feel the same anger, and yes hate that I have towards Muslims.
Those Islamic bastards came to my land, and murdered my people and I vowed if given the chance during the remainder of my lifetime to repay the debt to those who were murdered.
Included in this vow are all Muslims, I will not be selective to chose, "This Muslim is an extremist and this one is not."
This Country was not selective when we defeated Germany and Japan. We defeated all Germans, and all Japanese, just as we will defeat all Muslims.
What form will this debt be repaid in? This is for me to decide and me only.
I spent 20 years defending this Country and I don't intend to stop.
There are those who will say, "This is a post of hate." I'll respond by saying, "My post is no less hateful than a pregnant woman reaching terminal velocity smacking into a sidewalk beside the World Trade Center."
For those government types who monitor Conservative web sites. I have not intoned violence nor have I intoned others to violence. The one message that I have posted is, just a debt that will someday be repaid.

Richard2010| 8.5.10 @ 10:34AM

Melvin. I agree with your position; although, I wished i didnt. I also think that Islamic problems are not going away and that more Americans will eventually agree with your position. You remind me of Churchill telling his fellow brits the problems with Hitler and the Nazis. By the way, most Germans, initially, were not with the Nazis but eventually all Germans were hijacked by the nazis and enlisted in the German cause.

Melvin| 8.5.10 @ 11:43AM

Richard this is a position that I do not relish. But given the choices that have been presented before me. I choose freedom...period.
There is no half stepping, no negotiation, no compromising my principles as an American and the American way of life.
I will defend my Country, my family, and my way of life with whatever means that are available to me.
I am an American above all else, I am not a hyphen or a multiculturalist that seeks to destroy my identity.
I live by a simple code, treat others as I wish to be treated, and destroy others as they seek to destroy me and my fellow countrymen.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 2:20PM

Melvin, you say you choose freedom, and yet you are promoting the idea of withholding 14th amendment freedoms to a set of Americans simply because they share the same religion as the 19 hijackers. There are 2 billion Muslims in this world. What percentage of them have engaged in terrorism? .00000000001%

By the same token, you should regard all Catholics as pedophiles.

Melvin| 8.5.10 @ 3:52PM

Then why have not the 2 billion stopped the .0000000001%. It appears that the numbers are in their favor, but their silence is deafening is it not?
Where I come from the silence of 2 billion is is a nod of approval to the 0000000001%.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:04PM

ever thought about who is really behind that .0000000001%?

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:08PM

Let me ask you a question. Why have you not stopped the pedophile priests? Why do you continue to allow the Westboro Baptist Church to preach such hatred in Christ's name? Why did you not stop the Christian militia that was planning to kill cops? Seriously, Melvin, what are you doing to stop these examples of Christianist extremism right here in our own country?

Start thinking about it, and soon you'll realize why the Islamic terrorists have not been stopped by the moderate majority.

Rob| 8.5.10 @ 4:37PM

Great code Melvin, one I am sure the multicultural elitists will never understand or appreciate. What is occuring is the intentional dilution of Christianity in this country, by those in power, to our own detriment and eventual downfall. When the Supreme Court requested that God be let out of the public school system in 1963, He obliged, and now, the godless in our country want Him removed from the public square entirely. What they didn't count on was that another spirit of the age would move in, and as Jeremiah Wright might have stated it, "the chickens have come home to roost". So now we have Islam taking over lock, stock and barrel. Once Elena Kagan gets nominated to the SC, they'll have another victory brick to add to their mosque. We must defeat them, those Islamists, at every turn. You can bet they are intent on doing that to us. Can you believe the irony here? We're protecting Muslims from Isalmic jihadists in two different countries with with our nations' finest, and here at home we're about to give them the store. November will not come soon enough.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:09PM

Rob, please show how Islam is taking over "lock, stock and barrel." For example, what percentage of Americans are Muslims? How many seats do they hold in Congress? How many governorships? How many billionaires are Muslim?

I look forward to your detailed reply.

Michael| 8.5.10 @ 9:15PM

It has to be true if Obama said the USA is a muslim nation! Sharia law is creeping across the land and there is plenty of evidence islamists are entering through our unprotected borders. Just because you don't see Geraldo reporting it doesn't mean it's a myth.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 11:52PM

Michael, it sounds like you're talking about the loch ness monster or something.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 11:52PM

Michael, it sounds like you're talking about the loch ness monster or something.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 11:52PM

Michael, it sounds like you're talking about the loch ness monster or something.

HJ Shmuel| 8.7.10 @ 4:21AM

Paulio, I can't answer for Rob, in spite of the irrelevance of your question, but I wonder if you remember the Muslim senator from Illinois who, ... no, wait that is president from Hawaii/Kenya/Jakarta...
...and if you don't get it, sadly, you probably still won't get it when you become dimmi to your new bosses. It is your absolute right to be as ignorant as you choose to be, just as it is my right to search for truth in spite of tolerant, loving folks like you.

Doug| 8.5.10 @ 1:13PM

Melvin: I totally agree with you except on one point. I do not hate All Muslims. I simply loathe political/totalitarian supremacist ideology that fuels the hatred There have been nearly 16.000 attacks by Islamists (worldwide) since 9/11. I don't have to go over the list. Simply go to religionofpeace.com. Just the home page will give you a taste. The articles and the sidebars are excellent. I also recommend reading the following books:

Surrender by Bruce Bawer

Muslim Mafia by Paul Sperry

They Must be Stopped by Brigitte Gabriel

Stealth Jihad by Robert Spencer

Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali

America Alone by Mark Steyn

A God Who Hates by Wafa Sultan

Cruel and Usual Punishment by Nonie Darwish

The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and The Crusades by Robert Spencer

The Grand Jihad by Andrew C. McCarthy

Touching History by Lynn Spencer

102 Minutes (Can't Recall Author)

While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer

Let's just review some incident off the top of my head regarding Islam: 1. 1972 Olympic Massacre
2. Marine Barracks Bombing 3. Iranian Hostage Takeover 4. TWA 847, Pan Am 103, 1993 WTC Bombing 5. The Achille Lauro 6. Ft. Dix Plot, 7. Millenium Bomber 8. Ft. Hood Massacre. 9. Bali Bombing 10. London Bombing 11. Madrid Bombing 12. Uganda Bombing 13. Christmas Day Bomber 13. Shoe Bomber 14. Times Square Bomber 15. Israel Bus and Restaurant Bombings 16. El Al ticket counter shooting at LAX 17. Mumbai India Bombing 18.Luxor, Egypt Massacre 19. U.S. Embassies in Africa Bombing 20. Danish Cartoons Rioting 21. South Park Self-Censorship 22. Assassinations of Pim Fortuyn and Theo Van Gogh 23. Salman Rushdie Fatwa (since lifted) 24. Geert Wilders Ongoing Trial.

Watch on YouTube: 1. The Films Fitna, Obsession, Submission, Undercover Mosque.

Sorry if I got long-winded. This "Park 51" issue (renamed because Ground Zero Mosque or Cordoba House was uncovered as PR B.S.) I think Bloomberg must be an idiot or simply totally unaware of the TRUTH. He is unaware of the Arabic word Al-Taqiyya. This nation's apathy, ignorance and political correctness is sheer cultural suicide. I really wish people would READ and be INFORMED. This ideology is totally incompatible with freedom and democracy. And the Imams and Mullahs know this and are using our very Constitution against us. Religion is the cover for a worldwide subversive movement...and I am not some right-wing nutjob...In fact I was quite liberal till 9/11. I am really tired of being tolerant of the intolerant...and I am nauseated by shariah law. Thank you kindly for reading my rant and have a nice evening (if you can after perusing the above)! I've a LOT more to say...but my head is in danger of exploding.

Regards,

Doug

Texas Mom| 8.6.10 @ 2:48PM

Nice Rant, You did leave the USS Cole and our dead sailors off the list as well as the Islamic pirates off the coast of Somalia....
I was never a lib but I am losing my patience with those 'tolerant people' who are never tolerant of conservative views. Their tolerance is a facade that is increasingly wearing thin.

Ken (Old Texican)| 8.5.10 @ 8:15AM

Islamophobe: definition: A person who fears Islam.
Anyone who does not fear Islam just hasn't understood the program yet.

Call me an Islamophobe.

John II| 8.5.10 @ 12:15PM

Logophobe, n. [Gr. "logos," reason; "phobos," fear]. "A western liberal who has his head up his ass about the nature of Islam." Syn. See "Obamaphilia."

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 2:21PM

Great point, Ken! If you look at our history, fear and prejudice have always ushered in societal advances. Fear and prejudice are what made America great! Now if only we could get our slaves back and keep them from shagging the white wimmin...

John Navratil| 8.5.10 @ 2:54PM

Paulio,

I you do not fear them, I suppose. Where have you been? Just who is blowing up civilians the world over. Are you so comfortable that you care nothing for the carnage being perpetrated by this group, or do you think a good inter-faith group hug will get everyone to play nice? Naif!

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 3:04PM

No, I don't fear Islamic terrorism. I acknowledge that my chances of being involved in a terrorist attack are not nearly as great as being struck by lightning. So, if I'm brave enough to go walking around outside, then I'm brave enough to not worry about Islamic terrorism.

As you probably have deduced, my earlier post was sarcastic. As opposed to fear and prejudice, communication and understanding have actually been the hallmarks of societal progress. The US has been at the vanguard of this understanding, hence our success. Prejudice and fear evaporate in the face of understanding. People tend to hate black people more, for example, when they don't know any. Same goes for Muslims, gays, Mexicans, etc.

Such leaps in understanding have always been accompanied by shrieks and howls from the more backward segments of our society. Thanks again for your contribution.

Texas Mom| 8.6.10 @ 2:58PM

So much for compassion for people victimized by islam. You are not worried for yourself, that is not bravery. Courage in the face of fear; doing the right thing regardless of personal cost but not an absense of worry. I live in Sugar Land in an area that is unbelievably diverse. My kids went to an elementary where 85 countries where represented and I submit that tolerance needs reciprosity otherwise it results in the tyranny of the minority.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:11PM

oh i see, it's not carnage when we are behind it. when you add up all the lives allegedly wiped out by islamic fundamentalists over the last 20 years or so, it amounts to a day's work in some cases for the us military, and nato forces.

Gary | 8.6.10 @ 1:11PM

And this is as it should be. We win, they lose.

And no, it's not carnage, unless we intend it to be carnage. Then it's carnage. Purposeful carnage. Call it punishment for being so stupid as to declare war on America. Call it punishment for allowing yourself to be led to do stupid things by a religion so stupid as to require punishment that looks like carnage.

Carnage, I say! Great Carnage upon those who sew dynamite into their children's underpants before sending them out to play. Hope they don't make it to your playground, Kenny.

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:46PM

It's not islamophobia if they really are trying to kill me.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 2:54PM

Yes, AntieMadder. All 2 billion Muslims are trying to kill you. Watch out!!

John Navratil| 8.5.10 @ 2:56PM

Please identify one or two of those 2 billion who condemn the killing.

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 3:00PM

Every one of them that reads and belives the Quran.

By the way, I've read the Quran. Have you?

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 3:06PM

No, you haven't read the Quran, as shown by your comments. And yes, I have. Moreover, I (as a WASPy American) married into a Pakistani/English family. I have tremendous insight into the world of moderate Muslims living in the West. They loved Reagan and Thatcher, loathe people like bin Laden and Bush, and share the same hopes and fears as the rest of us.

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 3:16PM

Again, you know-nothing know-it-all, I have read the Quran. You've not read it, which is obvious. Most Muslims haven't read the Quran because their Imams advise against it. Their told what their Imams want them know at the time that their Imams want them to know it. That is surely what you've learned of the Quran.

As for the so-called moderate Muslims, they'll be moderate until their Imams are ready for them to move past moderation. In the meantime, I don't hear any of them speaking out against Islamic terrorism and jihad. What I hear, instead, is the excuse making, pretty much like you've done here. "Don't blame us. We didn't do that. We're moderate Muslims." I suppose I can't blame them for that bunch of self-serving lip service since I know that speaking out against jihadists or terrorists or any other part of Islam can get them killed, too.

Melvin| 8.5.10 @ 3:57PM

Then if what you say is true, then it shouldn't be a problem to stop those bent on murder. By the way there is no such thing as a Moderate Muslim.
Islam strictly forbids it, but of course you already know this.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:11PM

No such thing as a moderate Muslim, eh? So, my wife's family who allowed their daughter to marry an infidel who did not convert to Islam are just biding their time before they eventually cut my head off?

You folks are hilarious when you express your ignorance of the world.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:27PM

John Navratil, I will show you far more than 1 or 2 Muslims condemning terrorist attacks. How about these?

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

What's that? You say you never heard of these people, which is why you erroneously thought Muslims supported terrorism? OK, no problem, we're all ignorant until we learn, right?

So please, tell us all how your opinion has changed, and how you're not really a closed-minded bigot. I look forward to that.

John Navratil| 8.5.10 @ 6:46PM

Paulio,

I followed the link and spend quite some time looking around. Amidst the broken links and server errors, I found quite a number of condemnations of the terror attack of 9/11 along with such sentiments that America had it coming but we still condemn the attacks. I found a prayer against Satan and imploring God to be gracious to all who know him (most unequivocal, I must say).

What I did not find (perhaps you can point it out) was a condemnation of terrorism. No condemnation of jihad. Just, specific condemnations of the specific attack made when the U.S. was mightily peaved.

So I ask again, where is the condemnation of terrorism? BTW, I have several friends and acquaintances who are Muslim (apostates) and Western. Do your wife and her family practice Islam? Just asking.

HJ Shmuel| 8.7.10 @ 4:30AM

Thank you Ken, from a fellow Texican and PROUD Islamophobe.

yonjuro| 8.5.10 @ 8:19AM

The only appropriate place for saracens at Ground Zero is UNDER it.

Ed| 8.5.10 @ 8:38AM

At Pearl Harbor, there are no Japanese temples or shrines, and the post-war Japanese Government has even considered building one.

The are many Japanese temples and shrines around Oahu, and that is fine, they are part of the local culture and heritage. But there is no way one would ever be built around the USS Arizona Memorial.

Mike| 8.5.10 @ 8:40AM

Mr. Tyrrell writes: "There is an awful lot of blowzy thought swirling around the proposed mosque to be raised two blocks from Ground Zero in lower Manhattan." True. Including this sentence. The building, which already exists, is a cultural center (with a prayer room), not a mosque. You mislead by suggesting that a new building is going to be recected where none exists and that the building is a mosque instead of a cultural center.

Having listened to Abraham Foxman and Michael Bloomberg on this issue, I believe Mayor Bloomberg has it right. I urge the readers of AmSpec to read Mr. Bloomberg's remarks.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 9:17AM

Mike,
It is you who are misinformed (or purposefully throw misinform others); the top levels of the Cordova Mosque (that is how the Muslims describe it when away from cameras) will in fact be a mosque. The ground levels will be eye candy for guliiable apologists like the Mayor and yourself. I'm sure thier displays of diversity, and meekness will be impressive. This nation is already filled with dhiminis.

Maddox| 8.5.10 @ 9:52AM

Those in the leftist fight to destroy America and dishonor those who were murdered on 9/11 want to show tolerance to the Islamist who want to rub that day in our faces. They have gone too far and we will no longer tolerate their tyranny. We will vote them out!

KingLee| 8.5.10 @ 3:03PM

Remember, the mayor is a Republican consertive. Please vote HIM out.

Todd| 8.5.10 @ 10:45PM

Are you kidding me? Bloomberg a Republican conservative? It is true he was elected as a Republican (just to get elected on Guilani's coat tails and calls himself an "Independent" now) but he has always been a liberal and part of the ruling class that disdains a great portion of America. In short, he is a rich liberal ahole

Ed | 8.5.10 @ 8:40AM

This is a correction to my earlier post. It should read:

At Pearl Harbor, there are no Japanese temples or shrines, and the post-war Japanese Government has not considered building one.

Bob Miller| 8.5.10 @ 8:43AM

Does it occur to our ruling class that the movers behind this mosque want to squash them, too?

Bob Cotten| 8.5.10 @ 8:50AM

We have religious freedom in America. Muslims don't have it anywhere in the world. We ought to recognize that fact by reciprocating: Let's trade them a Christian cathedral in Saudi Arabia for their mosque and guarantee that Christian proselytizing be allowed from its rooftops five times a day.

blackwatch| 8.5.10 @ 1:28PM

how about allowing Chrisitians to hand out the scripture at an arab street festival in dearborn michigan.

the battle is well at hand folks. Islam is not a peaceful religion. It is a cancerous ideaology and this mosque is a recruiting center.

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:47PM

Note that it was an Arab festival, not a Muslim festival, at which the Christians were arrested for handing out literature. That, in itself, reveals a great deal about Islam.

Mike| 8.5.10 @ 9:00AM

Bob, you correctly observe that "we have religious freedom in America. Muslims don't have it anywhere in the world." While not exactly accurate, you point is well taken. Part of what makes America great is the religious freedom we enjoy, the product of the liberal thought of our founding fathers who drew on a wealth of history concerning religious intolerance.

The more we compromise our values or engage in tit for tat games, the more of what makes us unique we yield. In other words, we become more like those we oppose.

ton| 8.5.10 @ 9:14AM

No, we don't become like them . . . we don't behead our enemies, we don't stone women, we don't mutilate young girls, we don't enslave children, we don't drape women in black shrouds, we plant car bomb outside elementary schools, we don't (at least outside of San Fransisco) "marry" little girls . . . but we do (at least some of us) have enough cojones to tell our self-declared enemies to take their in-your-face monuments to murder someplace else . . .

A culture that appeases its enemies is not worthy (or capable) of survival

ton| 8.5.10 @ 9:16AM

No, we don't become like them . . . we don't behead our enemies, we don't stone women, we don't mutilate young girls, we don't enslave children, we don't drape women in black shrouds, we don't plant car bomb outside elementary schools, we don't (at least outside of San Fransisco) "marry" little girls . . . but we do (at least some of us) have enough cojones to tell our self-declared enemies to take their in-your-face monuments to murder someplace else . . .

A culture that appeases its enemies is not worthy (or capable) of survival

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 10:40AM

But you forget, we WERE like them.
My grandmother was born as a possesion of her father and then her husband. My friend's dad could not drink from the same fountain as my dad. We ritually married off our daughters under eighteen in most redneck states for years and years, and we suffered under watching veiled bigotry as Kennedy was doubted whether he was fit for office as a Catholic and even today whether we are "ready" for a Jew or even a Mormon in the whitehouse. We have hand-wringing sessions whether Creationism is a fact and should be taught in a science classroom, and we fall over ourselves believing gay marriage will lead to the destruction of an America that never really existed.
All this has evolved over the last 100 years, and we appear to have many years to go before we grow up.
For our enemies, no we don't behead them in the town square, but we send drones and bombs onto civilians and call them collateral damage.
I agree we need a strong approach to opposing interests, but I am not righteous or naive enough to know that our own tactics never have consequences. We taught the world how to do it.

rainmaker1145| 8.5.10 @ 10:49AM

You're right, using burka clad women and retarded children as human bombs is right out of the Army field manual.

You can justify it all you like, but in the end the reality is that Muslims are a violent, criminal conspiracy that values death and violence as a means of controlling people's lives and property for the benefit of their cult. Period the end.

These people don't believe in democracy or freedom - which Muslim country offers that? None.

These people don't believe in religious tolerance and the right to worship - which Muslim country offers that? None.

These people don't believe in equal rights - they believe in death for anyone who doesn't bow to Mecca.

Having said, I have no problem with you being a human shield for them and you should consider it a career opportunity to demonstrate your support. Nobody in America will dissuade you from the opportunity to be all you can be.

Tim*| 8.5.10 @ 12:02PM

What " We " ?

The United States Is Only 234 years Old , Sport .

All sorts of bigotry , suppression , means of killing was going on in the world , long before the United States was even born .

You need to grow up .

John Navratil| 8.5.10 @ 2:59PM

We means "he and his mouse".

Nicholas Wind| 8.5.10 @ 1:05PM

wtf are you talking about?
Like I said in my previous comment get your ass out of America and go live with your people.
In Iran or Iraq or Pakistan.
That way my cousin can take care of you with a 50 calibre between the eys.

TomPer| 8.5.10 @ 9:01AM

No construction worker worth his salt should lift a finger in building this monstrosity. Those who do should be stoned - an old muslim tradition.
Peaceful religion?
Prove it.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 10:44AM

Junior had bible passages on his daily war reports as we killed 100,000 iraqis and displaced millions more, based on lies. There is NOONE in prison for this deception. How would you react if another country bombed your house without any retribution? Sad, angry, desperate?
Are you suggesting there's a difference? You're a fool.

Tim*| 8.5.10 @ 12:09PM

This is The United States of America .

You're about as non-convincing as askin' how Germany felt when we bombed the crap outta them and how Japan felt when we dropped two Big Ones on their heads.

Maybe , you could go over & apologize to Japan with your girlfriend Obama .

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 1:22PM

We sat by and watched the war in Europe for almost two years before we were dragged into it.
The Germans knew the deal, and did the Japs.
Problem is, we don't know the deal.
We refuse to sacrifice for war, pay for it, and accept that losses are possible. That's what has changed in America since WW2. We do not want to pay for our projection.

Balckwatch| 8.5.10 @ 1:37PM

Saddam Hussein killed a half million Iraqi's during his rule and started a bloody war with Iran--his co-religionist neighbor, and invaded kuwait if you remember.

America broke the dictatorship and routed his forces. We paid the bill for this war--with our national visa card. You, me, everyone who pays taxes is stuck with the bill.

Why don't you start a war bonds drive?

You seem so upset that President Bush is not in jail. Go arrest him. Go find a liberal Spanish judge to issue an international arrest warrant. Go arrest him cowardistani.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 3:34PM

We supported him in his war with Iran, remember Rummy in his office?
We haven't paid for the war yet. $700B on defense each year, over $1T spent in the two wars to date, and Junior puts through a tax cut.
Hussein was a bad man, but he was not a US enemy until WE turned on him and sided with the Kuwaitis and Saudis. We picked sides in an Arab bloodfeud. Same in Afghan. It will be ironic if helos get shot down with stingers WE gave them 25 years ago. tragic, but important.
There is zero difference between supporting Saudis or Iraqi despots outside of commercial interests. As a keen observer, you should realize that.
Iran is a smokescreen, the real juice is in Pakistan.

KingLee| 8.5.10 @ 4:05PM

Those were his own people that he killed. It was THEIR duty to overthrow him.
In the war with Iran, he was called a hero by American politians. (Iran was our #1 enemy at the time)

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:24PM

i thought is was wmd's. no? then it was the link to al-qaeda. no? then it was........... no? oh he was a bad man. so it's our duty to rid the world of all the bad actors? i got news for all the dictators out there, don't ever get caught in the position of being an obsolete asset.

Tim*| 8.5.10 @ 4:11PM

What " We " ?
Most Americans know " the deal " . We sat on Iraq since The First Gulf War , before we went in and Defanged Saddam in March of 2003 . You must not have received the memo .

We heard The Costs over and over again from The Liberal Media Agendists .

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:52PM

Instead of stoning the workers, how about we spray the site with pork fat and hogs' blood, renedering it unclean and therefore unfit for a mosque?

KingLee| 8.5.10 @ 4:07PM

If they are as religous as they claim, a bag of pork skins on the proposed site should render it unclean.

Mike| 8.5.10 @ 9:04AM

TomPer,

And exactly how does your thinking differ from that of the Taliban?

JP| 8.5.10 @ 9:22AM

Lesson One: when you can't argue your points successfully, go for the ad hominem attack.

Try a different talking point next time. Equating Christianity to the Taliban is quite dated.

Mike| 8.5.10 @ 9:47AM

JP,
It was not an ad hominen attack. It was a question. TomPer advocates stoning any construction worker who lifts a finger to expand the cultural center. This is a punishment used by the Taliban.

My question stands.

TomPer| 8.5.10 @ 10:35AM

Mikey, what "cultural" enhancements will the muslims bring to New York?
Sharia? Stonings? IED's?
Com'on, name a few.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 10:59AM

What does it matter? Is it a right or not?
What's your final solution? Muslims are already here. Camps, new segregation laws? What else?

Mosques are as diverse as any Christian sect and New Yorkers know that old marginalized groups like Catholics and Jews are actually what made the city what it is today. You want them to stop being uppity as well?
Think, dummy.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 11:59AM

Catholic and Jews did not push to have religious laws replace civic laws. And as many FBI agents, informants, and Muslims themselves will tell you, what goes on behind the closed doors of the mosques is totally different from the public face the clerics give us. Even the more "moderate" Sunnis routinely preach against the decadent laws of thier host nation. Most Muslims prefer Sharia over our secular laws.

And finally, stop throwing up strawmen. No advoctes camps and "final solutions". Its no like there are not already dozens of mosques in New York City already. Remember, it is not how we preceive this mosque, but how Muslims around the world do. The Cordoba Mosque symbolizes the triumph of Islam over the West. To Muslims it means the Islamification of the West continues.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 1:34PM

Look, we have our own demons to worry about.
A Catholic can't be King of Britain or Holland. It's on the books, today, in 2010.
Blacks and Whites could not marry in the US until the early 60's in many states.
That's a nanosecond in history.

Muslims are going through their inquisition period, just like we did. The break between factions in the faith is enormous, and with over 1B adherents, the faith will evolve and extremists will fall under their own weight within a generation.
The Wahabbi's in Saudi are the real problem. Watching Junior hold hands with the King and daddy sending our boys to free Kuwait was all you need know about our complicity.

Gary| 8.5.10 @ 1:50PM

New York is a lousy place for Muslims to kill each other. Let them work out their internecine squabbles somewhere else, like Saudi Arabia. Maybe they can blow up each other's mosques.

canuckistani| 8.5.10 @ 3:37PM

It's already started. Shia are openly shunned in Saudi, and AlQaeda specifically targets Shia sites as instigatoprs for conflict. Pay attention.

We should be more worried about trampling on the constitution than bigoted veiled attacks against a group.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:21PM

Just like his hero W, Gary has absolutely no grasp of the Muslim world. Gary, I suppose you've never heard of the term "Shiite" and "Sunni" and the conflict they've had for the last 1000 years? That's okay. Neither had Bush.

HJ Shmuel| 8.7.10 @ 4:54AM

"All you need to know"
Basic problem identified: smug, self satisfied ignorance. There is a whole lot more you need to know. Find out the significance of the September 11 date in Muslim history (fall of the Ottoman Empire mean anything?). Check corelation of Spanish subway bombing date with historic events concerning Spain vs Moslem... know what sharia is? How about hudnah? I didn't think so, or you wouldn't be running to be dhimi! Maybe you will only lose your right hand and your left foot since you are a good and faithful dhimi. You don't mind paying your fair share of extra taxes, now do you? It's only right since you weren't born by Allah's grace a real Moslem, right. You may even be favored enough to be the one who is handed a sword to behead a dog like me - but be forwarned, dogs like me tend to bite.

davelnaf| 8.5.10 @ 9:12AM

As the author says, this mosque controversy is shaping up not as a fight for some peoples’ right to build a mosque in an inappropriate location but as a fight between the people of this country and the people who rule over them. The Ruling Class could at least try to prevent the mosque’s construction to show that it cares about the feelings of those who lost loved ones on 9/11.

But, because the RC is itself a minority ‘group’ and thus theoretically subject to the wishes of the majority, it probably views this mosque controversy as an interesting opportunity to make a statement. By allowing this mosque to go forward it will give Americans—as if they needed one—another example of its preeminence in all things large and small, even in regard to the location of inappropriate buildings, such as mosques, in places where many Americans do not wish to see one.

Does anyone expect a different operative logic to be in play after the RC passed health care ‘reform’ over the intense opposition of most Americans?

It is not much of an exaggeration to say that the RC’s willingness to allow the mosque to go forward is another example of how far away in outlook and attitude it has moved from the rest of us.

The moment the RC heard about this mosque’s proposed construction near Ground Zero it should have found a way to prevent it…or at least show the despised majority that it had tried. But, increasingly, this is alternate reality stuff in today’s America.

Maddox| 8.5.10 @ 10:01AM

Yes, Barry is "so articulate." Why doesn't he start a dialogue with those who want to build this pariah to convince them it is offensive on this site.

Maddox| 8.5.10 @ 10:01AM

Yes, Barry is "so articulate." Why doesn't he start a dialogue with those who want to build this pariah to convince them it is offensive on this site.

Teflon93| 8.5.10 @ 9:23AM

So, when will we be building that Baghdad cathedral then?

uncle curmudgeon| 8.5.10 @ 10:04AM

Let's say they get this thing built; a monument to the progressive religion of union jobs. On opening day the mosque is surrounded by thousands of silent peaceful people, each holding a picture of one of the GZ victims. The organizers vow to maintain the vigil 24/7/365. How long will it take the all-welcoming, what-makes-Americans-Americans mayor to get a court order, and the paddy wagons, to put it all to an end?
All together now, "One rampant Amazon on a dead tyrant's chest. Yo Ho Ho and a big ol' can o' Sic Semper Tyranis."

George S| 8.5.10 @ 10:06AM

In the minds of the Ruling Class, the building of the mosque is a necessary step in their approach to the war on terror: appease the enemy into desisting. Those who oppose have the instinct to fight and destroy the enemy. Don't think the Muslim world isn't watching.

baseball mom| 8.5.10 @ 10:10AM

Bloomberg is an idiot and should be ashamed of himself. Just because the law allows a mosque to be built on that site doesn't mean it SHOULD be. And the U.S. doesn't need to show or prove anything to the world about how free we are. They know it. And that's why the Islamofascists hate us.

Nancy in NC| 8.5.10 @ 11:14AM

Does anyone really think that Blumberg would be agreement with just any legitimate business going into that site... like a strip club, or how about a Catholic church?

Every city has zoning laws,and I'm sure NYC could have come up with something legit...IF they really wanted to.

Personally, I think Blumberg is afraid to stand up to the Muslims. After all, this iman has made some very controversial statements. I don't think this would have happened on Guiliani's watch (and I'm not a big fan of him either).

Just because something is legal, doesn't make it ethical or the right thing to do.

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 3:13PM

There's actually a strip club about a block away from the proposed mosque. And the area around ground zero, like much of new york, has numerous churces. Want to put up a new one? Buy some land and do it. There's nothing stopping you.

Purple Lips| 8.5.10 @ 5:04PM

And they've been at that site well before 9/11. But you can rest assured that if the Mosque is built they will not last a year. Try visiting Amsterdam. The Islamic majority there is cleaning up their notorious Red Light District. Very quietly the gay bars and hotels are being converted for less unseamly patrons. The whore houses are being strong armed into closing, and the junkies are emigrating to more friendly climes such as Zurich. What the Christians in Amsterdam failed to do in 50 years, the Muslims are doing in less than 2 years.

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 5:26PM

There's no muslim majority in Amsterdam. But yes, the Dutch have had a lot of trouble integrating muslims into their society. I think we'll be better at it, but the comments on this page certainly give me some second thoughts.

Baseball Mom| 8.5.10 @ 8:11PM

"Integrating Muslims...." Ain't going to happen because they don't want to be integrated.

Remember Theo van Gogh??? Murdered. In Amsterdam by Islamofascist.

macon| 8.5.10 @ 10:21AM

While conservatives may not be in agreement with unions much of the time let us hope that the unions will take a stand against building this thing.
It was the unions who were among the strongest anti-communists in the past and supported Solidarity in their struggle against tyranny. let it continue that struggle against tyrants who have no feeling for people's suffering.

George True| 8.5.10 @ 10:54AM

Unfortunately, that was then, this is now. Today, the unions in America ARE the communists.

PJ| 8.5.10 @ 10:37AM

While I believe all religions have a right to legally build a house of worship anywhere they want, usually w/in a neighborhood that has many believers, one has to question why these guys are building an Islamic center a couple of blocks from Chinatown (I didn't know the Chinese are Muslim!) or in a primarily commercial district where poor Hispanics might live (Are they predominately Muslim too?) I didn't know Manhattan has a need for more mosques anywhere on the island. Are there that many Muslims over there? --------- I doubt it. So why are they building it? Read any reputable book on Islam's history. It's is a very predictable religion/culture.

loulou| 8.5.10 @ 10:48AM

The Muslims wanted to build a mega mosque/community center/conference center in the small farming community of Walkersville, MD.

The good people of Walkersville (country class, of course) said NO at a substantial financial cost to themselves. There were of course the usual accusations of racism but the citizens of Walkersville stood firm. We could learn from them.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 11:21AM

Use London as a templete. Muslims muscled out many of the Hindi and Sikh minorities in London's urban nieghborhoods. This mosque goes up, look for agitation 24x7. They will use the governing class's political correctness against them. And most city councils cannot turn away "outreach money". Before you know it, zoning laws will change, real estate titles as wealthy foreign Muslims buy up the occaisonal warehouse, appartment buildng, or business front. Muslim families with a penchant foor activism will move in. Clashes between Muslim and non-Muslims will result, and many non-Muslims will move out. It's a slow, but steady process. Before you know it, people will be referring to Little Arabia when speaking about Lower Manhatten.

Robster| 8.5.10 @ 5:11PM

JP, Again, you are so right with your analysis. I am reminded of a quote attributed to then USSR President Kruschev in the 1960's: "We will hang the West with the rope which they will sell us". Could the Saudi's have borrowed that line? We are buying their oil, and they are using the enormous profits to promote their Wahhabist agenda right in our own country, as you so clearly explain. And yet, candidate Obama told us that he was intent on fundamentally transforming America, and we still voted him in. The Islamacization of America will fundamentally transform America if we let it happen as well, and even though we are seeing it happen all around us (can you say Dearborn, MI?), the authorities still cave when it comes down to standing for......what do they stand for, the Bloomberg types? Oh yes, themselves and the RC! If you ask me, they're all in it together, along the the CFR and the Bilderberg Group. Rise up, all for one and one for all, America!

DRed| 8.6.10 @ 12:18AM

How'd that work out for old Nikita? Have some faith in your country and its values

loulou| 8.5.10 @ 10:43AM

I wouldn't hold my breath re: unions doing the right thing. Union members will do as they're told and Obama wants this mosque built.

I still say a severed pigs head on the premises will be effective. Yeah, I'm an Islamophobe.

blackwatch| 8.5.10 @ 1:45PM

I would get a tanker truck of pig blood and consecrate the ground if I lived in NY.

KingLee| 8.5.10 @ 4:21PM

The President and the mayor has very seldom agreed on anything. Why would they now join forces for something so controversal? New York City goverment runs New York City, not Washington DC

Chris Hammond| 8.5.10 @ 5:55PM

May I infer you're also a xenophobe, homophobe and bigot?

mike D| 8.5.10 @ 11:02AM

Can you tell me which Muslim countries shows religios tolerance towards other faith. Now suddenly they will learn at Mosque at Newyork.
Ruling class want test limit how much soudi money can buy.

Louis Jenkins| 8.5.10 @ 11:05AM

Well, I'll speak the truth. How about no Mosques at all in the US? Far better to be without these dens of inquity. The rest of you can take a hike. I'm an Islamophoe too Old Texican and loulou.

dcd| 8.5.10 @ 11:13AM

Solve the problem the american way; throw money at it. Buy the land.
Or more amusingly buy land in Mecca and build a cathedral. Watching the ensuing hypocrisy would be hilarious.

Nancy in NC| 8.5.10 @ 11:17AM

Good idea, but impossible to do. No "infidels" are allowed in Mecca.

How do you say hypocrisy?

Verdi| 8.5.10 @ 11:14AM

I have seen this comming for 50 years.When liberels took over the schools. When politically correct stsrted to run the country that started the downfall of the U.S. Brought to this point. In about 20 years 3/4 of the world will be Muslim. Just like Europe is now. A blind man could see this comming.

Tim| 8.5.10 @ 11:14AM

Some years ago, when I visited the Pearl Harbor Memorial I don't recall seeing any Japaneese
place of worship near the memorial.

Obviosely, Japan has been one of the U.S.'s strongest friend for some time now and was so when I visited the memorial.

Yet out of respect for the dead and the victims of that horrible December day, the memorial site focuses on the events of that day and people are free to reflect whatever their creed.

Assuming that the Mosque organizers in New York truly want to show their tolorence and mutual respect of US culture, than the honorable thing to do is to respect that site and build the Mosque in another section of New York.

Building the Mosque at the 911 site is the same as placing a statue of Abraham Lincoln on the property of Robert E. Lee 9 years after the Civil War. Only this is worse because these were a few extreme muslims from outside the US who were American Haters and who were twisted and bent on bringing our country down.

It's amazing that we even are discussing this unless of course the issue for some politicians is fear of decapitation and if that is the case than the enemy has already won!

Perhaps President Truman was right after all and regardless of how awefull it was it did end the war and now we have enjoyed peace with Japan.

A little harsh, but should not be ruled out by a future US President.

martin j smith| 8.5.10 @ 11:43AM

It took the Left several decades of Constant Activism to get where we are now. It will not happen over nite for those in the ( as noted Country Class ) but we do not have the luxury of a lot of time. For the Left Socialists they like terrorists have had all the time in the world. The reason for this is that the Country Class ( and I do include myself in this group ) has been naive in responding and in some cases continue to be.
Let me give one glaring example having no direct connection with the Mosque in question. The Republican party response to the nomination of Ellena Kagan to SCOTUS. The game has changed for the Left Socialists but not for us. The Left Socialists do not abide by rules in Congress nor does their President. As long as Republicans Play by the " book " the Country class representatives will be at a significant disadvantage. At this stage of the game I would say blocking this nomination would be in order. What will the Democrat Socialists do, block ours--what else is new in their general scheme of things. These are getting to be desperate times and this calls for desperate measures.

As for the Mosque itself, I do not know the outcome--not being a fortune teller and all that but, even if it is built a movement should be made to remind Americans that this action is an obomination to the memories of 9/11 victims. The KLEFT you can bet will coopt the MSQUE as a memorial tribute you must think about how the LEFT works--coop ideas,turn them around into theirt meaning, and tell the BIG LIE. There is a neem to compete with them and challenge their ideas and in the right way confront those like Bloomberg . Perhaps that may mean picketing his home or city hall or wherever. This will not be a battle that will end even if the MOSQUE is built but it will take work. A "open Letter in the WSJ or similar media --constant chanllenging the idea --that is the most impoirtant thing--not to allow the Socialist to have the 'last word ". And it will take time.

KingLee| 8.5.10 @ 4:29PM

Remember, mayor Bloomberg is a far right Republican!!!

Todd| 8.5.10 @ 10:54PM

Get your facts right moron, Bloomberg is a pantywaist liberal ahole

james wilson| 8.5.10 @ 12:32PM

What does it say about us indeed.

The left is like a dog marking his territory. He can't help himself, he's a dog. He must be trained to understand his limits. We have failed to do that. Yet.

Havoc| 8.5.10 @ 12:37PM

Mr. Tyrrell, you underestimate the American people. We not only oppose the construction of a mosque at Ground Zero, we also oppose the mere existence of any mosque on American soil.

Further, we are offended that, after nearly eight years' of feckless war, any two bricks sit atop one another - calling itself a mosque - anywhere in the Middle East.

Yes, Mr. Tyrrell, you underestimate Americans.

Marjory Pickett| 8.5.10 @ 12:38PM

Has Pres Obama agreed to cut the ribbon at the opening cermonies yet.

John II| 8.5.10 @ 12:40PM

Er . . . if this thread has cooled down enough, I'd like to suggest a slight emendation in the text of the editorial so that, along with the repair of other, less egregious typos, the editorial may journey into the archives unsullied.

The Latin expression "ad arguendo" is grammatically impossible, whatever it's supposed to mean. If the intended sense is "for the sake of argument," then any of the following might work: de arguendo, ad arguendum, or arguendi causa.

Whatever happened to the letter-perfect copyediting of the Spectator? TAS is getting entirely too sloppy in these little matters. For shame!

And now back to my Hopalong Cassidy DVD collection, with proper training for my grandkids in upright living.

bill h| 8.5.10 @ 12:43PM

Many people fail to remember that of the 3000 killed on 9/11, about 300 were foreigners working in this country. This mosque will be an insult to them as well.

stedes| 8.5.10 @ 12:45PM

First some corrections in fact need to be established. One we are not talking about a Mosque but an interfaith Islamic Center - the same as a Jewish Center or a Christian YMCA. This will be open to all people of NYC regardless of religion. Second this is not a ground zero but two blocks away. So what is the issue if it is not at ground zero?

The memories of 9/11 are fresh in everyone’s mind. I understand the emotion behind it. But unfortunately after reading numerous posts against the building of this center, the arguments do not persuade. The reasons is that the arguments are emotional based. They are full of anger and being the majority of us are Christian, we have no empathy for Islam. We just don’t like them. We forget that Muslims were killed as well on 9/11. We are CINO – Christian in name only. Compassion and tolerance is not welcome here.

I have yet to read any constitutional or legal arguments against this center. Just because it symbolically offends is not a constitutional or legal argument or basis to stop it. How does denying the Muslim Center square with the first amendment?

It puzzles me how conservatives who on one hand criticize Obama and liberals for not following the constitution - go and not follow it themselves. Sometimes the ruling class has to override an angry emotionally charged population that will deny people their constitutional rights. It was the right thing to do to end segregation and impose civil rights and it needs to be done to protect the constitutional rights of Muslims.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 12:58PM

Steds,
Nice try. But there is no getting around the fact that the proposed building will be a Mosque. The upper floors of the building will be reserved for this. The ground floor will be a facade of multi-culti displays and "We Are the World" slogans for liberals like you.

Your spin falls on deaf ears for the simple fact that any American can follow what has gone on in Europe and other places where the Religion of Peace (ROP) has made a foothold. Whereever Islam spreads to, trouble follows. Check out the current events in places as diverse as Thailand and Nigeria. Or follow the news in India (where Islamic terror attacks are a daily occurence). Better yet, check out Europe.

Of course, you attempt to spin this as a 1st Amendment issue. But, you libs have attacked any vestiges of Christianity in our public spaces that few listen to your false pieties. Justice Robert Jackson once wrote that our Constitution isn't a suicide pact. And funny that you've brought up civil rights. I suppose you are all for the federal judge who struck down the California proposition that prohibited gays couples from marrying there. This prohibition is perfectly constitutional, and it enjoyed overwhelming support of California voters (esp. Hispanic and African Americans). No, the only rights I suppose you support are those which tear this country to pieces.

John II| 8.5.10 @ 1:02PM

Your rhetorical questions and declamations seem particularly prim and sophomoric when measured against the whole thread so far, steddie. Try JP's comments at 9:11 a.m. if it's too much for you even to skim the thread.

John II| 8.5.10 @ 1:03PM

Ooops. JP beat me to it. Serves me right for interrupting an important Hopalong Cassidy flick.

JimH| 8.5.10 @ 12:55PM

Even the YMCA is distiancing themselves from Christianity, as they have renamed themselves The Y. In the spirit of multicultural tolerance I suggest we celebrate the opening of the mosque with a pig roast.

Nicholas Wind| 8.5.10 @ 12:56PM

I'm a Canadian watching this.
I'm in Toronto or San Francisco lite I call it.
I'm actually still in disbelief that you voted in Obama bin Laden.
So this is no surprise that you spineless linguinis
on the PC side don't have a problem with this.

In the decades to come if PC is still around with your once great country of America which I've always loved...will you spineless linguinis be willing to kill these radical pukes in yur home towns?
It won't be you or me but our children and grand children fighting these pukes in the streets.

Lastly it's certainly incredulous to me that you spineless liberal/socialist/marxists that are sucking your country dry actually blame your own country for being attacked by terrorists.

If it's so bad get your asses over to Iran or Iraq or Pakistan and join their fight against your own people.
At least that way my cousin can put you out of your misery with a 50 calibre in the fore head.

At least that way we can take care of you like you should be taken care of

KingLee| 8.5.10 @ 4:53PM

You are not an American and therefore you do not have the right to speak ill of our President or an American. Come down to the real South and tell us how spineless we are and we will send your worthless butt back to canada, sore and in peices.

Todd| 8.5.10 @ 10:57PM

He has every right to speak ill of Obama. What is your deal anyway?

Bonnie in PA| 8.5.10 @ 12:56PM

I think its a travesty to allow the Muslims or whomever to build a building to spit in America's face next to the 9/11 site! I hope someone runs against Bloomberg so NY will not reelect someone who betrays all that America stands for. The fact that Muslims are taught to kill Americans is a great thing and when they go to heaven they will each get 72 virgins, its no wonder these people are coming to America to kill all they can. When my ancestors came to this country from another one, they learned the language, became citizens and embraced what was a Great nation. Too many have forgotten or never known the cost of freedom! Both sides of my family and my husband fought in service for this country and my daughters grew up knowing what sacrifice to this country meant and thankfully they are teaching their children that freedom isn't free! I hope NY and/or the rest of this country can stop this building for Muslims to spit on America!

ldot| 8.5.10 @ 12:57PM

Stedes, it's obvious that you didn't lose family or friends on 9/11. Doesn't it concern you that the imam won't identify hamas as a radical group or that this mosque may be built by terrorist (defintion: people whose intentions are to harm, maim or kill Americans) money. Why is it wrong to ask that the source of their funding be disclosed?

ldot| 8.5.10 @ 1:02PM

Nicholas Wind, are you married? I think I love you.
Well said! The Canadian press and people get it, there are so many linguinis here that are being controlled by the PC (and don't get it), it's embarrassing. And now, the spineless, liberal, socialist, marxist usurper-in-thief wants to send a delegation to Japan to apologize for hitting em with the A-bomb, a move that saved many American lives! Michelle should sew lace on his panties.

Bob| 8.5.10 @ 3:33PM

Lace on his panties? Johnnie Sinclair has already beaten Michelle to it.

Paul Wriggle| 8.5.10 @ 1:05PM

What people do not understand is that Muslims are looking 20 or 30 years down the road. If we don't act now they will slowly but surely put women in head gear and make adultry a death penalty crime.

Long Ben| 8.5.10 @ 1:05PM

How can anyone want to come to the USA and not recognize , that we have been singularly blessed with the choicest bounties from the hand of our beneficent Father ? How did those who hate the God of our fathers come to be so abundant here ?
Freedom of conscience ? Yes , and always , but just how well has that thing Mohammadans worship been treating them ? God is love .

Prime Minister Tojo| 8.5.10 @ 1:08PM

What we need--really, truly need--is a Shinto temple beside the Arizona memorial at Pearl Harbor. After that, let us erect a statue of Bull Connor and place it at the entrance to the NAACP offices. And then we can build a colossal monument to Santa Anna on his horse with dead Texicans around him and put it next to the Alamo. What's that you say, they already have Santa Anna up and he is grinning like a Cheshire cat? Pardon me, my silly error.

Paul in Colorado| 8.5.10 @ 1:10PM

The behavior we're seeing in New York is fear cloaked as honor. Janet Reno was terrified that she would be targeted for assassination, even for the tepid responses of the Clinton administration against jihadist attacks. Mayor Bloomburg is picturing himself decapitated or blown to bits, and behaving accordingly.

Don| 8.5.10 @ 1:11PM

Not at Ground Zero

From the Editors at National Review

The story of the proposed mosque at the site of the World Trade Center has been thoroughly misrepresented, as have the parties behind the project.
They present themselves as ambassadors of moderate Islam. Daisy Khan, executive director of the American Society for Muslim Advancement, says the project aims to put the Muslim community “at the front and center to start the healing.”

Ms. Khan knows better, because she is also Mrs. Feisal Abdul Rauf, the wife of the main Islamic cleric behind the project.
Rauf is no moderate.
He presents himself as a peacemaking Islamic Gandhi, but he is in fact an apologist for the terrorist outfit Hamas, which he refuses even to identify as a terrorist organization.
Nor is Rauf exactly full-throated in his rejection of terrorism, offering only this:
“The issue of terrorism is a very complex question.”
While he cannot quite bring himself to blame the terrorists for being terrorists, he finds it easy to blame the United States for being a victim of terrorism:
“I wouldn’t say that the United States deserved what happened, but the United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened.”

As National Review’s Andrew C. McCarthy has documented, Rauf’s book, published in the West as What’s Right with Islam Is What’s Right with America, had a significantly different title abroad: A Call to Prayer from the World Trade Center Rubble: Islamic Dawa in the Heart of America Post-9/11.
“Dawa” means Islamic proselytizing, a process that ends in the imposition of sharia.
The book was published abroad with the assistance of the Islamic Society of North America and the International Institute of Islamic Thought, which are two appendages of the Muslim Brotherhood, an organization behind much of the world’s murderous Islamic terrorism.
The Islamic Society of North America was identified as an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation terrorism case.
The co-founder and president of the International Institute of Islamic Thought, Shaykh Taha Jabir al-Awani, was an unindicted co-conspirator in the Sami al-Arian terrorism case.

This dispute has been presented as a question of whether an Islamic center and mosque should be built in proximity to the scene of the worst act of Islamic terrorism — and the worst act of political violence — ever committed on U.S. soil.

But at least as germane to the dispute is the question of whether these particular parties ought to be doing so.
The fact that an apologist for terrorists and an associate of terrorist-allied organizations is proceeding with this provocation is indecent.
We have thousands of mosques in the United States, and who knows how many Islamic cultural centers in New York City.

We do not need this one, in this place, built by these people.

We’re all stocked up on Hamas apologists, thanks very much.

The libertarians among us are wrong to take a blasé attitude toward this, asking, “If their permit applications are in order, why not?”

Here is why not: because this is not just a zoning dispute.

The World Trade Center is, in effect, the gravesite of 3,000 Americans who died at the hands of Islamist radicals, and to build a mosque on this site — particularly a mosque with Muslim Brotherhood connections — would be extraordinarily unseemly.

We will not appeal to the official powers to use the machinery of government to stop this project.

We appeal, instead, to the sense of decency of the American Muslim community, and to its patriotism.

Beyond that, Americans should make their displeasure with this project felt economically and socially:

No contractor, construction company, or building-trades union that accepts a dime of the Cordoba Initiative’s money should be given a free pass—nobody who sells them so much as a nail, or a hammer to drive it in with.

This is an occasion for boycotts and vigorous protests — and, above all, for bringing down a well-deserved shower of shame upon those involved with this project, and on those politicians who have meekly gone along with it.

It is an indecent proposal and an intentional provocation.

Blackwatch| 8.5.10 @ 2:01PM

Oh yes I can see the really expensive cost overruns on this job: overtime that will be paid by the contractor when work stoppages take place daily due to protestors blocking streets, etc. get creative NY'ers.

Gary| 8.5.10 @ 2:07PM

How 'bout letting them spend all that money – no doubt the ONLY reason Bloomberg is in favor of this abomination.
We should insist on union labor to make them spend as much money as possible. We should insist they use only American materials, which will be priced accordingly, (the 'Muslims pay 100% more' rule).
When done we can "nationalize" the damn thing and let the military use it as a target.

Lola| 8.5.10 @ 1:17PM

I imagine the call to prayer will be heard at ground zero. Oh yes, didn't Obama say that the muslim call to prayer is the most beautiful sound on earth? I saw the screen saver popular with muslim youth of the WTC collapse. It's on their laptops and their cell phones. Wonder if it will be a mural inside the mosque. Will the administration stop this because a majority of people don't want it? As the White House Spokesman said about the will of the American people's protest against the obama health care bill in the Missouri election-the will of the American people means nothing.

New Yorker| 8.5.10 @ 1:20PM

What better way to prove the US is not like the repressive Islamic countries than by letting this center/mosque whatevs be built? It shows that what lies at the heart of Americas faith—grace— is not what lies at the heart of Islam—judgment. It shows that this grace leads to freedom, instead of punishment and repression. It shows that the U.S. is too big for petty payback. And yes, it shows that the U.S. is sometimes prepared to let some of its people be hurt for the sake of what it stands for. All pretty good symbolism, actually.

Blackwatch| 8.5.10 @ 2:06PM

spoken like a naive sock puppet.

the average uneducated wage slave that lives in an islamic country will only know that they have brought NY to bend its knee their false religion of hate. They won't know about God's grace shining on thee.

New Yorker| 8.6.10 @ 10:34AM

Too late to respond to that i suppose. But obviously, whatever we do we cannot completely control the spin any extremists wants to put on any action. We put the mosque-like object there, it can be spun as some great victory for the forces of Islam over the weak kneed Westerners. We refuse, in contravention of our own constitution, to put the Mosque-like object there, we're the great Satan oppressing their adherents. We can only try to change the tone of the exchange and show that we, at least, are open to dialog. Let's start with the thoughtful Muslims and work out from there.

Fordor| 8.6.10 @ 10:48PM

Don't you dare call my payback petty!

justavoter| 8.5.10 @ 1:20PM

I say let them build the mosque, but charge them one billion dollars a day. If they don't like that deal, then move on and shut-up. All that money could go to a worthy cause.

Ralph Novy| 8.5.10 @ 1:22PM

"There is nothing irrational or bigoted about thinking that a mosque does not belong at Ground Zero or at the Pentagon or on the Pennsylvania countryside where United Flight 93 crashed."

Yes, there is. Period.

And it's not a matter of "Ruling Class" vs. "Country Class." [What lame-brained oversimplification THAT is.] It's a matter of those with a sense of decency vs. those without it.

Devasahayam| 8.5.10 @ 1:23PM

Having a mosque (a MONUMENT to the bigotry of Muslims, especially of Salafi persuasion, AGAINST America and West) at or near the site of their attack against US is akin to putting a Taj-Mahal-sized Shinto Shrine right atop "USS Arizona" Memorial. And it also violates laws of EVERY religion known--letting a WRONGDOER decide on the atonement (and in this case, not even a pretence thereof) for the wrong done is a tenet of no known religion!

Chaim in DC| 8.5.10 @ 1:28PM

I admit. I am a bigot. On 9-12 I tried to reach out to the muslim community and was rebuffed. I have waited nearly nine years for the so-called moderate muslims (still waiting for the moderate democrats to prove they are really moderate...hmmm, a pattern? but I digress) to show their courage, to come out of the fear that keeps them, if they exist, for standing up against islamofacism. Oh, but I recall, a survey done of muslims in England after the bombings there, where 84% were in favor of terrorism as a form of expression. My point, building of mosques in this country must come at the requirement by the government that all muslims renounce terrorism. In the absence of that...at is fully evident that it is absent in today's USA, then I am a bigot. In the absence of muslims denouncing all terrorism, I cannot trust a single muslim. I am a bigot. I am okay with that. So, I say, to the ADL and Mr. Foxman, it is not okay for a super mosque to be built in this country. We don't need a supercenter of terrorism in downtown Manhattan, or anywhere else in this country until muslims change their "evil" ways...and I can guarantee you that it will be a cold day in...well, you get the point, before that happens. So, proudly, since I cannot tell a good muslim from a bad muslim, they are all bad, and I remain a bigot.

new yorker| 8.6.10 @ 10:36AM

Wait, you were rebuffed once? On 9/12? And that's it? You must have a horrible time dating.

Fordor| 8.6.10 @ 10:55PM

This may have been brought up already in this discussion but one reason that moderate muslims do not come forward is because it would be totally unsafe for them to do so. There may be silent muslims and those who will tell you in private that we all worship the same god, etc. but I think that is about the most you can expect.

Steven| 8.5.10 @ 1:28PM

Wow...I can't believe how many people here think it's ok to trash the constitution.

It is illegal for a government to interfere in religion(remember freedom of religion?) and for that reason the Mosque is free to go up in Manhattan. I can't believe that so many people here are willing to trash the constitution that they themselves support when it suits their purposes.

Not all Muslims are bigots but as the mayor of NYC said, "denying it plays into the hands of the Muslims"

And if this is allowed to be prevented, then who's to say that someday someone will try to prevent Synagogues from going up?

Chaim in DC| 8.5.10 @ 1:41PM

Steven , your construct is not well informed. Would you suggest it was appropriate to build a Japanese Shinto or Buddhist temple in the environs of Pearl Harbor? Would you be surprised that millions would object? The mayor of NYC is ill-informed and is playing into the hands of the islamofascists, of which the proposed Imam is most definitely one. Are you foolish enough to believe that this is innocence? Are you foolish enough to not believe that all the muslims want is an anchor for sharia law? The government interferes in the expression of religion on a regular basis, so your reasoning does not hold water. Trying to draw a connection between Jews and muslims is a affront to all Jews. You live in a fantasy world, or you have your head firmly planted where the sun don't shine. Need some help pulling it out?

Steven| 8.5.10 @ 2:05PM

Chaim, the Mayor is a smart guy and dead on.
He said it right, and the community can build it if they choose so. Freedom of religion makes it so. And your paranoia is solely based on that segment of "IslamoFascist" which in itself is a made up word, coined by people who prefer you live in fear.

Funny there are Muslims where I am and I am in contact with a few. Never felt the cold hand of Sharia law . And they know I'm Jewish. But wait, they all must be islamo fascists...cant trust them.

Chaim, you are being paranoid, and that paranoia is allowing to make an exception in the constitution. Maybe Chaim we prevent future churches from being built because of that faction of christians who are dominionists?

So Chaim, you may think I live in fantasy world but at least I respect the constitution. And you go back to your hovel and live in fear of the world.

Gary| 8.5.10 @ 2:18PM

You are assuming Islam is a religion. It is not. It is a Judeo/Christian heresy. It's so-called prophet was a lazy, good-for-nothing heretic who was a convenient foil for Satan.

The Constitutional protection of religion against Congress does not apply; Congress is not building a temple to beheading and clitorectomies in New York. And if that qualifies as a religion, then let's start a religion in which it is ungodly and against conscience to pay taxes. Let's start a religion in which polygamy is OK. (Ooops; that's already been tried). Let's start a religion in which Senators from Massachusetts are routinely hanged. Let's start a religion in which godly worship is described as lobbing large numbers of hand grenades into mosques.

Get the point, boobby?

Robster| 8.5.10 @ 5:57PM

Steven, If you are so in favor of the Isalmic Mosque going up in the name of freedom of religion, then why don't you turn your energies into repealing the Supreme Court ruling of 1963 that banned the teaching of the Bible and prayer in our public schools? Or do you favor Islam over Christianity? Where is your premise on government non-interference now? Instead of accusing the "wholly moral and religious people" of America of using the Constitution to suit our own purposes, take your aim at the corrupt leaders in Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court for ignoring it! The only purpose for which our Constitution was written was to protect our God-given rights from the government, not so they could tell us what we can or cannot do. Consider yourself duped by an extreme Left wing liberal movement to blind you to the truths of our founding and our real purpose in the world.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 3:09PM

Robster you yourself do hav some knowledge , it's clear. But you dont know all of it, and you are picking and choosing what you want to believe while ignoring much else. You and your right wing minions love to tell us how we're duped but funny, we on the left consider you a fool and a sucker becaue you think you know alot but you actually just pick what you want to know and ignore everything else.

Sorry, your no scholoar, just someone who knows things.

steven| 8.5.10 @ 2:12PM

BTW, thanks for the insults ...not surprised that you respond to my original statement with insults, that you are not willing to debate the issue...but i didnt insult you yet you go right ahead and do it.

And that is the way of how so many people here operate. Debate is over, you and i disagree with the issue but you decide to insult me.

I don't want a dictatorship, where only one way of thinking is the right way.

Great world you want. Those who disagree with you are ill-informed or stupid. That soulds like a great democracy you want.

John II| 8.5.10 @ 2:40PM

"It is illegal for a government to interfere in religion . . ."

Er, then how come Associate Professor Reno was never prosecuted for the Waco catastrophe?

Silly.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:40PM

how can an islamic jihadists have a fascist mindset? the last thing jihadists would appear to believe in is a ultra-nationalist, all pervasive state.

Newsduke| 8.5.10 @ 1:47PM

The 1st amendment of the Constitution says, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." If anyone has any evidence that the people building this mosque on their private property was involved in 9-11, then they should be arrested. Otherwise, conservatives should support private property rights over unconstitutional government power.

Dixie Pixie| 8.5.10 @ 1:50PM

Here is a thought.

Since the NYC politicians has not and can not rebuild the WTC due to incompetence.
Why not let the Ruling Class make the supreme gesture of reconciliation.

Sell the empty hole of the WTC to the Saudi Family.
Let them build a Grand Mosque on the WTC site just in time for the 10th anniversary.

Then fill it with 3000 Saudi Muslims.
Ram 2 remote controlled airplanes into it.

Turn about is fair play.
If not, then the Saudis owes the USA three free shots at Mecca.

Pete| 8.5.10 @ 1:51PM

Steven, Steven, Steven, Steven. It's the site, stupid. And where is the outcry in the Muslim community over this perverse travesty?

steven| 8.5.10 @ 1:58PM

Pete you are the stupid one. They legally are allowed to build it.

The perverse tragedy has nothing to do with this. The Muslim community has the legal right to build it. It's that simple. Freedom of religion allows it to be so.

Go read the constitution, you Moron.

Amy| 8.5.10 @ 2:03PM

If the muslims push this through then they have demonstrated that they are not sensitive, do not care about others and have one intention, to insult those who died on 9/11 and their families who mourn them.

The analogy someone made to the day care center built next to your house after he rapes your 4 yr old daughter is a very good one and makes the point clearly.

THIS IS ABOUT EMOTION. You won't see anyone building a temple to Hitler at Auschwitz or Treblinka.

SOME PEOPLE have common sense.

steve| 8.5.10 @ 2:29PM

Every muslim, really? All of them, all 100%?
Hey, since Timothy McVeigh had an agenda and was a christian who believed in a violent overthrow of the govt., maybe churches shouldn't be built in Oklahoma city?
And the comparison to Hitler is ill informed

Laine| 8.5.10 @ 11:55PM

McVeigh did not claim his crime was done for religious reasons. Also one man, one incident compared to thousands of incidents by thousands of Muslims killing thousands of innocents in their bloodthirsty God's name, half a million in Sudan alone. Steven is a moral imbecile to be drawing equivalence between Christianity and Islam today on the basis of McVeigh. What Christians justified and emulated McVeigh? How many Muslims have condemned Muslim slaughter of innocents? Their silence is approval. If Steven and other apologists for mythical moderate Muslims knew anything at all about Islam, they would know that killing non-Muslims including women and children is an express route to Muslim heaven, not a sin.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 3:12PM

Yes Laine he did. Among the other things he railed about. Laine, you are a moral imbecile yourself, because you really are so limited in your thinking that anyone who disagrees with you is a moron. Go back to your fox news and your independent impartial right wing leaders and keep believing what you want to believe rather then the truth. The truth hurts and you definitely don't like to be in pain.

steven| 8.5.10 @ 2:41PM

Amy in addition to believing all muslims are evil, you assume that everyone in Manhattan is against this. Many people who live their feel that preventing a culture from expressing their freedom of religion goes against what the constitution allows.

Anti-supremacist| 8.5.10 @ 4:16PM

steven (in addition to sneering that Amy hates Muslims) you assume that everyone against the mosque must hate Muslims.

American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for folks to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Muslims than disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia tradition, as practiced in Iran, Gaza, Kashmir, Malaysia, the Paris banlieue, Cordoba House and elsewhere around the globe.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/p.....eclaration

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of the vast majority of (allegedly) “peaceful” American Muslims supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists… but don’t hold your breath.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 2:01PM

Anti..It is possible she doesnt hate them all, but her statements seem to imply that. Just as here, all conservatives think all liberals are morons, and vice versa.

You're asking for moderate Muslims to speak out. But only when pushed against the wall does anyone speak out strongly about anything. Also, you are assuming that the press has searched out for those who speak out, but they can't find anyone. I do remember them speaking out (though its been years and I haven't gone back to find them), and I do remember Iran offering assistance to go after the terrorists (which was rejected).

And of course there are cray ones out there. But really the bottom line is that the Mosque can legally go up, and I completely believe denying religous groups from putting up a Mosque there is denying them freedom of religions.

That's what this discussion is really about.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:44PM

so we are reduced to being reactionaries, just let emotions rule. there is no use being human then, just react on emotion. if that's how you want to be, www3 coming up.

Adirondacker59| 8.5.10 @ 1:52PM

As a reader generally sympathetic to the opinions usually expressed on this page, it is with a great sense of disappointment that I read Mr. Tyrrell’s essay and many of the comments following it. I urge those who oppose the construction of any mosque in lower Manhattan simply because it is a Muslim house of worship to reconsider their initial emotional reaction to this situation in light of the principles that drew them to the conservative political movement in the first place. I believe most would agree that, above all, conservatives believe in liberty, and, more particularly, individual liberty. In practical terms, this means we are a live-and-let-live bunch who believe each individual should be judged by what he does or doesn’t do and not the group to which he happens to belong. Collective guilt of groups for historical events and the corollary notion of collective preferences for minority groups descended from the victims of historical events are the pets of the other end of political spectrum. However, collective group guilt of all Muslims for 9/11 appears to be the basis for the reflexive opposition to a mosque in lower Manhattan. To form our opinion of this mosque based on the simple fact that its builders share the same religion with the terrorists of 9/11 is entirely inconsistent with the principles of individual liberty that conservatives should hold most dear. Even if the construction of the mosque is a provocation, if we respond to that provocation by rejecting our principles, we will lose the respect of those who might otherwise turn to the conservative movement for relief from the self-serving platitudes of the left wing of the political establishment. Let us turn away from the lynch mob and use this moment to reaffirm our commitment to liberty.

Amy| 8.5.10 @ 1:57PM

If Islam was the peace-loving healing "feel good" entity it promotes, as a show of good faith it would step aside, defer to the sensitivities of the people who lost loved ones on 9/11.

Not happening, they are going to ram this through sensitivities be damned.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 2:21PM

The financing of this mosque will be done by the same individual who financially supports Hamas. I am not sure what principals you speak of; they surely aren't consitutional ones.

Laine| 8.5.10 @ 11:58PM

Rather than pontificating to your betters your time would be better spent actually studying Islam. Most of the people on this thread are way better informed than you are.

Amy| 8.5.10 @ 1:55PM

This is an Alice Thru the Looking Glass World, down is up and left is right.

With Obama what we have happening is the systematic destruction of all the good old Watermelon and Apple Pie holidays like 4th of July. In its place we have a "safe school" czar who is a member of NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association).

Why do we have the sex offender list is the man appointed by Obama to be in charge of our schools and our children promoting sex with young children?

Every person Obama has appointed has been just like this Mosque, an in-your-face insult to the traditions that I've known here.

And lets not forget the memo, I'm sure more than one but one I know of, where Obama "slips" and mentions that he was raised in the Muslim faith.

They don't need to send planes anymore to bomb this country, it is exploding/imploding from within because Obama is the bomb that is going to take down this democracy and replace it with the police state he is already implementing, thus the dismissal of the charges who were as good as convicted, video-taped encouraging their brothas to kill crackers and cracker babies.

This country, as it is now, is not the country I grew up in and if it were not for the fact that it would be a dishonor of sorts for those who have died in our armed forces in wars past, I would wash my hands of it.

steven| 8.5.10 @ 2:43PM

Amy, I look forward to visiting it when it is built. Maybe I will tell them I'm Jewish and I lived on west end avenue in Manhattan across the street from the WTC. Let's see what happens. Maybe they'll be a pretty Muslim girl i can meet there

I'll make sure my life insurance is up to date!

Fordor| 8.6.10 @ 11:07PM

One really insidious thing the mosque project does is to divide the local US population into the supporters of 911 victims and rescuers and the elitist islamofascist sympathizers. It shows them exactly who their enemies and friends are.

Stedes| 8.5.10 @ 1:56PM

My main question remains unanswered. What is the constitutional or legal rational for stopping the Muslim Center? I have skimmed this thread as well as others. And I have not read one non-emotional argument.

I am asking that you take all your rage against liberals and not accuse me of everything you do not like about liberals. Please do not make me your straw man.

So I will try again.

So hypothetically speaking, Let’s say you succeed in stopping the Muslim Center from going up. The City decides that since the people do not want it, they cannot build it. But the Muslims sue the city for denying them their constitutional right of religious freedom – claiming discrimination. They have been singled out because they are Muslim.

You are the attorney for the city of NY. What is your legal and constitutional argument to the court in defense of the city in prohibiting the Muslim Center from going up?

BTW – For what it may be worth since someone asked, I live in NJ and my brother worked at the WTC. Fortunately he survived the attack. In addition to myself, my brother and my parents do not oppose the Muslim Center.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 2:07PM

Simple: Zoning permits. The City of New York can refuse to grant the permits. Towns and cities do it all the time. Wise city leaders from Maine to California have done for centuries in order to avoid toxic situations such as this one. It's perfectly legal and constitutional. People don't have a constitutional right to erect churches wherever they wish.
In a recent federal case, the courts supported the city of Tulsa in refusing to grant permits to some Evangelical church. The church leaders cried foul, but a federal judge and the appeals court supported the city.

There is no legal reason why NYC cannot prohibit the mosque from being erected. None.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 2:14PM

"But the Muslims sue the city for denying them their constitutional right of religious freedom – claiming discrimination. They have been singled out because they are Muslim."

Another strawman. No one is denying Muslim anything. There are already several mosques in Manhatten. But they do not have the right to build a mosque anywhere they want to. Your understanding of constitutional law is weak.

John II| 8.5.10 @ 2:28PM

"I have skimmed this thread as well as others. And I have not read one non-emotional argument."

Then perhaps you're not a very careful skimmer, if I understand correctly what you intend by the expression "non-emotional argument." Some of the posts are angry and even abusive; others are satirical; still others are fairly sustained arguments, considering the shortage of space available. Someone posted the NRO editorial, if you're interested at all in argument.

On the more technical side, there is no such thing as a "non-emotional argument." All arguments get their force (and motivation) to some degree from emotion, even if it's only in the syntax of the expression, although to date I've never read an argument in which the emotion was strictly in the arrangement of the words.

Your own response, for example, is charged with emotion, and not just in the appeals you make in the second and last paragraphs. In your penultimate paragraph, the inquiry you offer in your hypothetical situation is what logicians call a complex question--that is, an emotional challenge loaded with presumptive and restrictive modifiers ("legal and constitutional"), rather than an open inquiry.

For further information on this topic, you may consult Aristotle's Organon, but spare us your lofty pose, Steddie. It is warranted neither by the tone nor the substance of your own expostulation.

William W. Wexler| 8.5.10 @ 1:57PM

One can always count on this worthless rag to put out the jingo, intolerant, and antiquated views that are on the minds of the ignorant few of you who call yourselves "conservative".

You are undoubtedly the same, exact, fucking idiots who run around wagging pocket Constitutions in everybody's face. Instead of writing mindless race-baiting and faith-baiting shit like this article, open your pocket Constitution up to the First Amendment.

What does it say about the government's role in religion?

Huh?

Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

PS Since this website has not adopted the policy of banning posers, I only post ONCE in each thread. If my post doesn't link to www.glennbeckreport.com then you are reading a fucking poser who should sit on it and spin.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 2:16PM

Actually, the government's role in this case only pertains to the site of the mosque, nothing else. Are you really that ignorant?

John II| 8.5.10 @ 2:35PM

". . .the policy of banning posers . . ."

Did you mean to say "poster" or "poseur"? I guess either would work.

loulou| 8.5.10 @ 5:52PM

Wexler is an idiot and a potty-mouth.

Johnny Fuckerfaster| 8.5.10 @ 6:53PM

blow me

ton| 8.5.10 @ 1:57PM

At least the President may finally attend a worship service.

But ah . . . the risibility of liberals defending Islamists. There is only one explanation for liberal Islamophilia: they both have a common enemy - Christianity.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 2:18PM

I would not wish it argued that all Christians are attackers because of the actions of a few Christians. This is the logic that terrorists use to justify their heinous acts.

ton| 8.5.10 @ 2:31PM

What?? Can you read?

That is precisely my point. Liberals (self-proclaimed champions of gay rights, abortion on demand, and pornographic culture) defend Islam (with all its repressiveness, violence, and bigotry) because both liberals AND Islamists hate the one true faith.

Is that plain? (Sheesh!)

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 10:03PM

As an American who believes in freedom of religion, I will defend Christians against charges of guilt made by association.

That is my true faith.

steven| 8.5.10 @ 2:47PM

Ton you are a very angry person with alot of stereotypes that you believe in. To say that liberals hate christianity is ill-informed, without merit, and really shows how little you know about progressivism.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 10:04PM

Ton is too angry to think. He misses my point above entirely.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 7:43PM

of course...and I also have asked many what they would do if they could do ANYTHING they want to the muslim around america and the world...So far haven't heard anything from anyone. So of course like the party of No, they have plenty to complain about, nothing intelligent to contribute and want others to do their work for them.

Amy| 8.5.10 @ 2:00PM

If the scenario you propose came about, the mosque was denied and these Peace Loving muslims sued New York City then that would erase all doubt of their benevolent intentions.

Long Ben| 8.5.10 @ 2:06PM

Uncle Cumudgeon is excedingly droll today .

martin j smith| 8.5.10 @ 2:18PM

Mr Adirondack sounds like Mayor Bloomberg--Is this he ? Or a substitute.

Let me explain briefly about 9/11 and PTSD and why people in NYC and other places in the US are not
indifferent to this offereing.

PTSD ( Post traumatic Stress can occur as a result of a horrific Incident and the 9/11 attacks qualify. They symtoms vary and their intensity vary according to your personality and degree of involvement or proximity. Even if you live in California, a person who cares about this nation can suffer as if they were right near ground zero.
But those people who are indifferent an as Mr Adirondack say there is a lynch mob or that we bestow collective guilt on all Muslims is a lie out and out as far as I am concerned--the BIG LIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My view is quite simple: Build Mosque-as big as you will-but not onl the 9/11 site. My question for Mr Adirondack and Mr New York is: Why should ONE religion be given special treatment on 9/11 sites when people of all faiths died there ? Why did the group that want to contruct the Mosque DEMAND it be granted ? Why did that group not reach out to 9/11 families to show sensitivity to those people before insisting on building a Mosque ? The Mosque may be legal according to the law, but to have it forced down our throats aided and abetted by the likes of Mayor Bloomberg is morally criminal in my oppinion.
One more final thougt: Trolls come in various forms Mr Adirondack and Mr New York--nice try but you are not of the Country Class you are of the Ruling class- so long.

mike ames| 8.5.10 @ 2:24PM

Hopefully no construction worker will work the site and if it is built may it be imploded just as quickly. Committed while moderate Islam is not possible, read the damn Koran.

Sarbo| 8.5.10 @ 2:27PM

A 13-storey mosque? Nah, that be no mosque. The upper floors will be banned even from the faithful. It's an office block. Question is, what offices?

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 2:30PM

The deeply ironic thing about your specious discussion of "ruling class" and "country class" is the fact that your ruling class (Newt, etc) are only using this mosque issue as a way of getting you to donate to them. The process has already been completed according to local laws and the mosque is going up, same as any other building where the buyers had applied.

The simple point of this story is "We are your leaders and we are against the mosque. Send us money!!!"

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:57PM

As opposed to what? Donating to the campaigns of those who support and promote what we're against?

Seems to me that ol' Newty and others have worked out a good plan: Work for their constituents in anticipation of support from their constituents. The Demonrats should give that strategy a shot.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:51PM

no i think the term is polyarchy, elite decision making with public ratification.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:12PM

Madder, Newt and the others aren't working for you in opposing the mosque. They understand there is nothing they can do about it. The work they are doing is writing op-eds that say "Hey, I oppose that mosque...Send money!"

There's one of you born every minute.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 3:10PM

Newt as opposed to whom? Al Franken. The former cannot write laws, while the latter can. Get a grip, Newt has about as much influence as I do.

Not so fast...| 8.5.10 @ 3:32PM

The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), which is representing a New York City firefighter who survived the 9-11 terrorist attacks, said today's vote by the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission is deeply offensive to many of the victims and families of the 9-11 tragedy. The ACLJ is planning to file an Article 78 petition in state court to challenge the city's actions. The ACLJ will allege that there's been an abuse of discretion in the Commission's decision and the filing is expected to occur tomorrow. http://www.aclj.org/media/pdf/.....100720.pdf

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:54PM

the aclj is a neoliberal globalist front group fraud. look where they are around the world, for example zimbabwe. rich in uranium, figures.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 7:45PM

Right on Paulio, you are making sense with everything you type.

Sceptic3| 8.5.10 @ 2:34PM

If you do not like what is happening to your country; Do not vote for the people who are doing it. Particularly in New York, where the leaning has always been somewhat to the left.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 2:47PM

That's right! Following local laws and ordinances regarding zoning is clearly part of a left-wing conspiracy! What we need to do is elect leaders who know when to apply the law and when not to. Because who's in charge here in this country? The laws and the Constitution?? Hell no!! White Christians are in charge, and what we say goes!!

steven| 8.5.10 @ 2:50PM

Right on Paulio. As a Jew I always knew that Christians did me a great favor by allowing me to live here! Thank goodness for those Christians who protect my right of freedom of religion.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 2:52PM

Don't get some comfy, Steven. It wasn't that long ago that we had you Jews in our sights. Right now we're distracted by hating Muslims, but we'll eventually turn our attention back to their Semitic brethren.

Stop the mosque!! White Christian Power forever!!

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:57PM

Who's "we?" You sound about as Christian as bin Laden does.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 3:09PM

Bin Laden has much in common with Christian fundamentalists. They both hate gays, are deeply intolerant of differing faiths, have an illustrious history of maltreatment of Jews, are terrified of the modern world, etc.

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 3:19PM

Islamic terrorists have carried out 15782 acts of terrorism since 9/11/01. And how many acts of terrorism have fundamentalist Christians carried out since that time? There is no comparison. Epic FAIL.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 3:29PM

The evidence clearly demonstrates that the 20th century’s bloodiest mass murderers-- Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Honneker, Mussolini, Caeucescu, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi, il Sung, Mugabe, Mengistu, Castro, Che, PFLP, PKK, FMLN, FARC, IRA, ETA, Red Army faction, Shining Path, Rachel Carson, etc., ad nauseum-- were all inspired by atheistic Marxism.

100 million corpses don’t lie. Show some intellectual honesty and own it, Christianophobic Leftists.

loulou| 8.5.10 @ 5:55PM

Anti-idiotarian: You're absolutely correct. They were all godless Marxists, not Christians.

ProudAmerican| 8.5.10 @ 3:44PM

Well the BIG difference is today Christian fundmentaslists are not training, financing, preaching to and encouraging their followers to do things like fly planesful of innocent people of ALL religions and races and countries into buildings filled with innocents from all religions, races and countries. That's a pretty effen BIG difference to most of us.

Steven| 8.5.10 @ 4:04PM

Many are.

steven| 8.5.10 @ 3:31PM

Paulio, you are right! Thanks for hating the Muslims because they are all evil. Please keep distracting all of us because I would hate to see what would happen if a jewish person commited a terrorist act here. If I see a Muslim i will contact the authorities.
Please allow me and my Jewish Brethren to defend you when the rapture occurs so that you can go to heaven. Remember according to an interpetation of the Bible, that's all us Jews are good for . Unless we convert.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 3:54PM

American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for folks to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Muslims than disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia tradition, as practiced in Iran, Gaza, Kashmir, Malaysia, the Paris banlieue, Cordoba House and elsewhere around the globe.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/p.....eclaration

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of the vast majority of (allegedly) “peaceful” American Muslims supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists… but don’t hold your breath.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:14PM

Thanks, Steven.

If only the Muslims could get on the same program as the Jews, and figure out some way to help Christians get into the Rapture before they're all wiped out with God's angry fire. Then we could sure be friends!

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:58PM

paulio, it's the rich whites who purport to be christian, you know the ones that have personal conservations with the man upstairs before invading a country. they also run companies like goldman sachs. i believe it was marx who said that the opinion of the masses at a particular time is the opinion of the elite, but i am paraphrasing.

expat| 8.5.10 @ 2:35PM

I'm an American that has been living in France for the last 25 years. I can see, I LIVE, I experience what is happening in Europe with the colonisation of this continent by Islam. Please do NOT let it happen in the States. NO TO THE MOSQUE. Those who are for it have no CLUE what Islam means - Do you know that if a French man/woman (or anyone for that matter) marries a Muslim and then wants to become a citizen of her/his muslim country he has to PROVE that he has converted to Islam ? You guys over in the States have no clue.
Start reading about this 'religion'.
OPEN your eyes.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 4:59PM

you left the us, and now you want to give us advice?

steve| 8.5.10 @ 2:48PM

Well expat, i guess if you say it, it must be true. So I will change all that I believe in because of what you think. Thanks, now I used to respect them, now I hate them.

Thanks for clearing it up. What else do you believe in?

AuntieMadder| 8.5.10 @ 2:58PM

Don't take the word from someone who's lived it when you can rely upon your assumptions instead.

steve| 8.5.10 @ 3:32PM

I guess since he is France it must be true AND his opinion is the only one that matters.

ProudAmerican| 8.5.10 @ 3:51PM

Steve why don't you do a little research. There are plenty more people who actually live in places where this same thing has/is happening that say the exact same thing, and more, as expat. Educate yourself from various sources, not just your liberal thinking friends.

kenneth| 8.5.10 @ 5:04PM

like the people who yearn for the good ol days? the ones with the selective memories, ask the irish about the good ol days stuffed in ghettoes in new york in the 20's. so one irish person saying that life was great, means i should believe it?

expat| 8.5.10 @ 2:52PM

Dear Steve - where do you live ? have you ever lived in what we call a 'cité' over here ? What is your knowledge ?
And by the way I have not read all the comments here so don't really know where you stand ? (I'm going to do that now).

steven| 8.5.10 @ 3:37PM

I used to live across the street from the WTC in new york, west end avenue. I met alot of lunatics and smart people. The lunatics say one group is all evil and the smart ones say that some of a group are evil.

I really shouldn't argue with you since you may be being honest (I have to assume we are all honest with our thoughts here).

But my point is that you definitely should be respected for your opinions, but my opinions too shoud be respected. I have meet good ones, you have met bad ones.

So I will assume that your opinions are based on your own experiences there.

So what do we do? everyone is screaming ...how do we allow freedom of religion without preventing restrictions of freedom of religion? Do we assume every muslim is evil because If you read posts here, there are people who sound like they are ready to intern them all.

Matthew 23:24| 8.5.10 @ 4:03PM

Nobody suggested uprooting the many mosques throughout Manhattan. Folks are rightly concerned-- for reasons cited at length by the article-- with Cordoba House erecting a monument to Islamo-supremacism at Ground Zero.

Why are Leftists-- who reflexively vomit over school (*gasp*) Christmas pageants-- suddenly so fanatical about "preventing restrictions of freedom of religion" at Ground Zero?

"Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!" [Matthew 23:24]

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 4:55PM

The Cordoba House is not being erected at Ground Zero, and it's not a monument to "Islamo-supremacism." Continuing to claim that makes you out to be an idiot, since these facts are widely available.

Liberals support this mosque because respecting our Constitution requires it. The Muslims followed the legal process required for all building permits. Suddenly, this zoning process is a sign of totalitarianism or something. So the mosque opponents tried to make the case that a dilapidated Burlington Coat factory is a historical landmark. That didn't hold up either.

If you want to further contest these rulings, you'll need to modify the 1st and 14th amendments to the Constitution. For both amendments, you could simply insert 2 words: "except Muslims."

Unlike the school Christmas pageants where Christians and non-Christians alike are forced to participate in Christian idolatry simply because they're going to a public school, no one will force anyone of any faith to come into the Cordoba House.

This whole Constitution thing is tricky, I understand. No wonder you guys oppose it.

Unholy Alliance| 8.5.10 @ 6:11PM

Leftists support this Islamo-fascist desecration of Ground Zero because they hate America and have formed an Unholy Alliance with Islamo-supremacists.
http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-A.....089526076X

Real liberals don't support sharia law advocates. For that reason, The American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), which is representing a New York City firefighter who survived the 9-11 terrorist attacks, said today's vote by the New York City Landmarks Preservation Commission is deeply offensive to many of the victims and families of the 9-11 tragedy. The ACLJ is planning to file an Article 78 petition in state court to challenge the city's actions. The ACLJ will allege that there's been an abuse of discretion in the Commission's decision and the filing is expected to occur tomorrow.
http://www.aclj.org/media/pdf/.....100720.pdf

This whole sharia law advocacy is un-Constitutional, and Americans understand that. No wonder you Leftists support it.

expat| 8.5.10 @ 2:58PM

I'm confused - are 'Steve' and 'Steven' the same person?

steven| 8.6.10 @ 7:47PM

Yes, unless someone is stealing my identity, I am the jewish muslim christian progressive gay straight communist who is too stupid to believe what the right says...

martin j smith| 8.5.10 @ 3:03PM

Boy do we have so fools posting I guess the topic is really getting to us Huh ? PTSD ? EXPAT, you know of what you talk--Steve,Paulio take a pill

expat| 8.5.10 @ 3:04PM

Well Steve (or Steven I don't know) What I believe is that the laws of our country are above the laws of any religion. If you knew anything about Islam I think you would agree - because one of the basic tenets of Islamic 'law' (okay try to get this - Islamic law) is that NO GOVERNEMENT can be ABOVE islamic law. So for Islamists - USA law ? has no importance. Stoning women ? Killing Jews ? All of that is ok ANYWHERE even in the USA - because Islamic law is above everything. Are you okay with that ?

expat| 8.5.10 @ 3:07PM

@ Steve "Well expat, i guess if you say it, it must be true. So I will change all that I believe in because of what you think. Thanks, now I used to respect them, now I hate them."
It's not what I think dear - it's what I LIVE - big difference.

Larry| 8.5.10 @ 3:08PM

Tyrell is just another bigot looking to stir up the uninformed masses looking for someone to hate.
He says, "First of all, we do not welcome everybody, not drugs lords, not Nazis, not Islamofascists."
True enough, and the reason he equates Muslims with Islamofascists is ?? This isn't a mosque to Islamofacists is it ? Or is he saying that it is?
Timoth McVeigh was a decorated Army vet and an Irish Catholic. Does he have a problem erecting a church near the bombing site? Oh, you say but the Catholic church doesn't promote violence. Do you want me to make a list of the acts of violence and murder done in the name of and with the approval of the church?
Tyrell then tells us, "It is not opposed to the building of mosques, just not on the sites of where so many brave Americans were killed by people who hated them because they were American." But does even acknowledge the fact that some of those killed were American Muslims? No, the inference he wants you to draw is that ALL Muslims share the blame for 9/11 and should be treated as less than equal in their homeland.
It's anti-American bigotry, plain and simple. If a wacked out fundamentalist Christian sect bomber an abortion clinic or killed an abortion provider where would all his puffed up faux indignation be?

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 3:23PM

Where do Leftists conjure this specious notion that McVeigh was Christian? In contemporaneous accounts, McVeigh was never described as killing out of any religious motives. Nor was there any evidence McVeigh considered himself a Christian.

At his execution, Jesus Christ made no appearance in McVeigh’s rhetoric. McVeigh’s last public act before he was executed was to distribute copies of the 1875 poem “Invictus.” It begins: “I thank whatever gods may be/ for my unconquerable soul,” and ends “I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul” Those sentiments are blasphemous of Christianity.

Reporting on his execution, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution described McVeigh as “an avowed agnostic” whose sudden last-minute decision to see a Catholic priest just before his execution surprised everyone who knew him. Even Barbara Ehrenreich (writing in the Progressive) didn’t portray McVeigh as having religious motives. She identified McVeigh as a “neo-Nazi mass murderer.” Lest Larry forget, Nazis (national socialists) are atheistic Marxists who venomously reject Judeo-Christianity.

In contrast, the 9-11 murderers called themselves Muslims, often attended various mosques, functioned within the mainstream Muslim community and quoted from the Quran extensively so that it is only logical for the objective observer to call them Muslims. Moreover, their Leftist-fascist fellow travelors (like Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn) remain unapologetic about their terrorist records.

Leftists need to direct their nihilistic angst toward the jihadist doctrines of their Muslim co-conspirators, rather than slinging specious grievance theories and moral equivalence arguments at Americans.

Own it, Larry.

Larry| 8.5.10 @ 5:01PM

Do you really want to get into a pissing contest over who has killed more innocent people in the name of Jesus or Mohamed?
Stick to the point and address the issue not the red herring. The murders at 9/11 were radical-out-of -the mainstream-Muslims. Therefore what?
You're a left-wing bigot disguising yourself as an American.
Own it.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 5:46PM

The evidence clearly demonstrates that the 20th century’s bloodiest mass murderers-- Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Honneker, Mussolini, Caeucescu, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi, il Sung, Mugabe, Mengistu, Castro, Che, PFLP, PKK, FMLN, FARC, IRA, ETA, Red Army faction, Shining Path, Rachel Carson, etc., ad nauseum-- were all inspired by atheistic Marxism.

100 million corpses don’t lie. Show some intellectual honesty and own it, Christianophobic Leftist.

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 12:11AM

Larry would lose the pissing contest. In Sudan alone, Muslim Arab militias at the behest of a Muslim government have slaughtered 500,000 blacks, mostly Christian and animist and displaced millions more into starvation conditions. There has not been a word of criticism of their co-religionists from the "moderate" Muslims (which apparently means ones not actually doing the hacking themselves). The reason is because they all believe the killings justified according to the ideology and religious law they all follow.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 3:24PM

You libs must be getting your talking points scripts from the same source. Talk about raising strawmen; you guys have been doing it all day. No one says the Muslims cannot build mosques; they just cannot build them at this one site. Heck, there're plenty of vacant spots all over Manhatten, from Tribecca to Harlem.

It is the Muslims who insist on this. And they haven't budged on iota. If they intended some kind of "outreach" or mutual undestanding they never would have proposed this in the first place.

And I'm not so sure what the fact that some of the victims were Muslim. In the 9 years since 9/11 very few if any Imans, clerics, or Islamic "leaders" actually condemned the attacks. As a matter of fact, within hours of the attack CAIR complained that it was the Muslims who were at risk (CAIR never misses a beat). And despite the continued linkage between many mosques, thier leaders, and international terrorism, the useful idiots here continue to mimick thier Islamic Master's talking points. Muslim lead violent insurrections in Thailand, India, the Phillipines, Niger, and Sudan do not seem to have any effect on these Dhiminis.

In thier view, our liberal dhiminis motto is "anything but Christianity".

Matthew 23:24| 8.5.10 @ 3:45PM

Leftists in NYC agencies don't hesitate to obstruct construction of houses of worship -- at least non-Islamic ones. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010.....ist-m.html

These Leftist reprobates would sell your Catholic mother's grave to support a scatologists right to squat and plop a steaming pile of free expression.

But when patriotic Americans object to jihadists opening a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium (and recruitment center) on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero-- and Leftists shriek with indignation!

"Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!" [Matthew 23:24]

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:39PM

JP, here's a list of those "very few" Muslims condemning the terrorist attacks. Read and learn:
http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

Meanwhile, from one side of your mouth you say "where the hell are all the moderate Muslims?" and from the other side you say "NOO! Those moderate Muslims cannot build their mosque!"

I'm sure this strikes you as perfectly coherent too.

Dirt| 8.5.10 @ 3:08PM

It's not a Mosque it shall be a symbol of Islamic Supremacism, Muslim shall travel to NYC to party and regale in their victory. Make no mistake Political Islam is no less dangerous than the Islamists however; the political left view the Political Islamists as allies and support them politically in their soft Jihad.

Cagey| 8.5.10 @ 3:11PM

America, land of freedom of religion except in NYC where zionists think they own and rule. Sad. It was extremists who committed the crime. Regular practitioners are not the problem. Let them build their mosque anywhere they can afford to and let's stop listening to the zionists who only want things their way or the highway. Either you are American or you are not. Either you support freedom of religion or you don't and if you don't then you are no American and you do not belong here. Go live in israel or similar where discrimination is a way of life.

Cagey| 8.5.10 @ 3:13PM

I forgot to mention. Please take me off you emailing list. We do not agree and I do not want to read your opinion. With an idiot named Ben Stein at the top of this page is another reason for me to ask that you do not send me any more of your un-American political drivel. The American Spectator use to be American and now it is zionist so please get lost!

megapotamus| 8.5.10 @ 3:14PM

Islam is satanism.

Shawn| 8.5.10 @ 3:14PM

This article is completely moronic. Gladly, such intolerant rants will not be heard.

Alan Brooks| 8.5.10 @ 3:14PM

I disagree completely:
if we let them build a mosque near Ground Zero we demonstrate how we are not like them.
At any rate, if a mosque is built there, the odds of a repeat attack in that neighborhood is diminished.

Purple Lips| 8.5.10 @ 3:57PM

"At any rate, if a mosque is built there, the odds of a repeat attack in that neighborhood is diminished. "

That's showing the good ol' American fighting spirit!

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 12:14AM

That's a vain hope by someone ignorant of the fact that the biggest killers of Muslims around the world are other Muslims.

Dixie Pixie| 8.5.10 @ 3:15PM

To the supporters of the Ground Zero Mosque

Are you telling me the Muslims will let the Transgender and Gay Married couples use the pool?
Will the Interfaith Islamic Center have a float in the Gay Pride Parade?
Will the Islamic Center support sex change operations and the people who have them, with festivals?
Will the Muslims support New York Liberalism in all its glory?

Or will the Interfaith Islamic Center hand out free slave collars and semi-transparent harem clothing so the people of New York City can get used to domination by the Saudi Caliphate.

expat| 8.5.10 @ 3:15PM

@ Larry "Do you want me to make a list of the acts of violence and murder done in the name of and with the approval of the church?"
When? What year ? Do you want me to give you this list of Islamists that have commited terroristes acts in the last ten years? These were Catholics? Read more about Islam. You will see that there are many moderate muslims - but when push comes to shove - they have no choice. It's obvious that you know nothing about the religion.

Louis Jenkins| 8.5.10 @ 4:50PM

I enjoy the stats on how many people the Catholic church bumped off. Unfortunately, the Muslims do not keep records on the matter or much of anything else.

expat| 8.5.10 @ 3:25PM

@ Alan Brooks|
Sorry that is a really wimpy attitude.

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 3:27PM

This has nothing to do with this mosque, but does anyone else find it amusing when members of the ruling class like Bobby Tyrrell bloviate about what the 'majority' of Americans think?

Dixie Pixie| 8.5.10 @ 3:38PM

Paulio – You do not know what you are talking about.

The Southern Baptists are on the opposite spectrum from Wahhabi and is offshoot Al Qaeda.
It has been my churches tradition to have the local temples rabbi give a pre-Chirstmas sermon every year as part of a inter-faith outreach.

There has not been a official Jewish Pogrom in the history of the Southeast.
There has never been a Gay Pogrom either.

You either do not know any Christian Fundamentalists or have been listening to the liberal bigots for too long.

Unholy Alliance| 8.5.10 @ 3:49PM

Paulio missed his meds this morning and can't resist the Leftist-fascist urge to psychologically project.

See also, "Unholy Alliance: Radical Islam and the American Left"
http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-A.....089526076X

Dixie Pixie| 8.5.10 @ 8:44PM

Greetings Alliance.
I am not so certain about the unholy part.

I hope it is just Paulio's meds or lack there of.

Why can not the Liberals understand the Fundamentalist Christians are the best friends the Jews have.
The reason is simple.
It is a theological requirement that Israel exist before the Messiah can arrive.
No Jews, No Israel, No Messiah. Its that simple.

Despite all evidence to the contrary the Northeast Liberals especially the New York versions believe the Southeastern Christians have something against the Jews. There are sound theological reasoning which requires a close alliance between the Jews and the Fundamentalist Christians. Yet the Liberals can not understand that. Simple regional bigotry is the obvious explanation. Liberal stupidity is the other.

Hopefully ObamaCare will fix Paulio. Just don't take Obama's little white checkout pill. That one is the final one.

kathy the mean old lady| 8.5.10 @ 3:54PM

I wonder how it will get built. Anyone know a Muslim contruction company?
Plumbers,electricians,steel workers?

Purple Lips| 8.5.10 @ 4:04PM

Oh there will be plenty of contractors. The Unions will see to that. Besides, like Lennin, the Muslims got our number -especially the libs numbers: Money. Your typical lib might sprout anti-capitalist, marxist jingles. But, underneath he is as greedy as anyone else -more so. Just look at ALGORE, Boy Clinton, Steve Jobs, Warrne Buffet, and Barney Frank.

Nope, the Saudi money bags will be opened far and wide. It will be interesting to see the Libs dance for thier dinner.

Hollywood Lib| 8.5.10 @ 7:38PM

Throw in Lady Ga ga and she will dance and strip for the dough and sings I hate America.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 7:53PM

Ain't capitalism grand! On one hand liberals are communists but on the other hand they shouldn't be working on a project getting paid.

But maybe you would rather then stay home and continue to go poor, lose their homes, etc. Because you think they shouldn't.

Purple, you might have won the biggest hypocrite award of the day here..

And btw, there are very few americans who would not work these days, i someone offered them a chance.

Jordan| 8.5.10 @ 4:01PM

The problem is a fundamental misunderstanding. The Mosque is not being built at ground zero. It's being built blocks away.

Now if you want to argue that we shouldn't have anything Muslim anywhere near ground zero then I'll propose we shouldn't have any Christian church the same distance away from locations where doctors or clinics performing abortions have been attacked and killed.

The problem isn't the religions involved, it's the extreme views of those religions. The guys who attacked us on 9/11 weren't average Muslims.

Average Muslims should have a place near ground zero for reflection on what the evil extremes of their faith have accomplished.

Abdul Achmed Ali Babba| 8.5.10 @ 4:07PM

"Average Muslims should have a place near ground zero for reflection on what the evil extremes of their faith have accomplished."

You must be joking, right? In the future let real Muslims speak for themselves. There will be no peace in Manhatten until its dhiminis are converted.

Anti-taqiya| 8.5.10 @ 4:07PM

Blocks away? WRONG! Try 600 feet. And the building itself still has the plane's landing gear lodged inside.

There are numerous mosques already in downtown Manhattan. This is not about Muslims needing yet another place to reflect (read: recruit).

Take you taqiya lies elsewhere.

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 4:32PM

No, there's no landing gear in the Burlington Coat Factory building. (True, there was, but the FBI removed it. )

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 5:04PM

Oh, I see. So, you're with the FBI and you've done the complete forensic testing to establish the absense of any remnants of the landing gear that we already know crashed there?

Don't be a smug apologist for Ground Zero desecration your whole life, DRed.

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:24PM

Yeah, DRed!! Who are you gonna believe? The FBI, or a poster called "Anti-idiotarian?" Sheesh!

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 5:50PM

DRed is the one asserting the site has been cleared of all evidence. But now Paulio thinks he's with the FBI, too. You half-wits know that impersonating FBI is a federal crime, right?

morons

Paulio| 8.5.10 @ 5:55PM

I can't find any mention of any wreckage landing in the Burlington Coat Factory. But assuming this is true, if the building is up for sale, it means any investigations are done. (Note: The FBI and other law enforcement do not allow the sale of a crime scene under investigation.)

So, back to you. What do you know that the FBI doesn't? Please provide details.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 7:26PM

Elementary, my dear Paulio.

Absense of evidence is not evidence of absense.

Try to keep up.

Paulio| 8.6.10 @ 12:34AM

So you're saying that there is evidence in the Burlington Coat factory. Therefore, if it weren't a mosque being built there, but instead say a Banana Republic or something, you would be protesting just as strenuously for the same reasons.

Right?

Paulio| 8.6.10 @ 4:45PM

Your silence speaks volumes. Moral of the story: whenever a republican claims to have some sort of guiding principle, hang onto your wallet!

Anti-idiotarian| 8.9.10 @ 2:55PM

Right. Because you responded a day later and I missed your baby fit, I see you still want to keep pretending you're the FBI.

Get a life, loser.

Frank P| 8.5.10 @ 4:53PM

Best comment so far

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 5:05PM

Thanks, but I think the National Review editorial trumps that modest fisking of DRed.

dw| 8.5.10 @ 4:02PM

The liberal naivety is on full exposure here. The analogy of grandma letting the big, bad wolf right through the front door on his promise that he is not hungry and if he gets hungry in the future he will be more than satisfied with vegatables is apt. If it were just grandma that would end up in his stomach that would be tough on grandma and would serve her right, but the problem is that in this case grandma's stupidity will put us all in jeopordy.
These folks can not be trusted and their choice and fight for this location is not an innocent attempt to bridge differences. It is a deliberate stick in our eyes and for them will be a monument to their victory over the infidels. For anyone who still has an ability for objective analysis you would note that they have a history of building mosque on the sites of their defeated enimies.
Bloomberg is an idiot liberal of the first order, who like grandma, would subject his citizenry to this affront for the sake of his politics.
New Yorkers need to let him know this is not acceptable by showing up in mass at the foot of city hall and recalling him if possible.

expat| 8.5.10 @ 4:11PM

"Either you support freedom of religion or you don't and if you don't then you are no American and you do not belong here. Go live in israel or similar where discrimination is a way of life."
Excuse me ? Or as we say in France : excusez moi ? you are way off base here. Do you KNOW what Islam means ? Either you believe it or you are dead or you are a slave. Could some of you try and instruct yourselves ? I live in France - so know these things seeing as how I live with it every day - you seem to be clueless (at least some, not all).
The *only* democracy in the middle east is israel - ask yourself the question - where would you rather live -Syria or Israel? For a woman I think that's a pretty easy question.

Matthew 23:24| 8.5.10 @ 4:24PM

While Jordanian-Arabs only aspire to render Judea (the so-called “West Bank”) completely Judenfrei, only the Islamo-fascists of Apartheid Gaza have rendered Gaza 100% Judenfrei– a fact unacknowledged by Leftist-Quislings committed to destroying multi-cultural, democratic Israel.

Meanwhile, Israeli citizens are white, black and everything in between; they include Arabs and Jews; Muslims, Christians, agnostics and atheists; they are Kurdish, Ethiopian, Russian, Polish, Iraqi, Yemenite and more. And every Israeli citizen can vote, participate in political life, and share beaches, bars and park benches.

As philosophy professor Bernard Harrison notes, "Israel is in fact, for better or worse, almost a textbook example of a multicultural society."

And that truth by itself exposes claims about supposed Israeli "discrimination" as laughable and — it's hard to think of a diplomatic way to put it — a big lie.

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 4:38PM

Syria is the wrong example. They just banned the veil for women. Go with Saudi Arabia. Try going to Israel as a woman and sitting in the wrong seat on an orthodox bus line.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 5:11PM

Orthodox bus lines are privately run enterprises, moron. They have a perfect right to seat passengers by gender. Try sitting on a bus full of nuns and see how you like a ruler upside your nugget.

Better yet, try entering any Muslim country and drinking out of their infidel-free water fountain.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2006.....ility.html

DRed is a snitty little troll.

El Condor| 8.5.10 @ 4:20PM

Mr. Tyrrell cannot assign me to any class except the one of concerned Americans, which he and all of you join me in, even if we don't all agree. Hopefully, all of you who read this take too much pride in your independence of thought to passively accept a label from anyone.

"Near" Ground Zero is not "AT" or "ON", Mr. Tyrell. Why do you insult the intelligence of your readers by slowly moving from "two blocks from Ground Zero" to "at Ground Zero" and finally "ON the site" over the course of your article? You couldn't be TRYING to up their anger, could you? Are you assuming they'll happily not notice your sly rhetorical maneuver?
This IS a freedom of religion issue; the same one that applies to the three Christian worship houses that are actually CLOSER to (but also not on) Ground Zero than the proposed site of the Islamic center. The center would merely join a community of worship near the site of the atrocity, and appropriately so: who among us wants more division, when division is what leads to fear, mistrust and, ultimately, violence. Christ himself made a point of exalting a Samaritan for his unique goodness, when the majority of Christ's people thought of Samaritans as dirty good-for-nothings. Christ's example, in this example and repeatedly throughout the Gospels, teaches us to reach out and connect despite our differences, suspicions, concerns, and inclinations to turn away. And the Cordoba Initiative is the right "Samaritan" for this moment.

The wording in the Cordoba Initiative's MISSION statement is about "bringing back the atmosphere of interfaith tolerance and respect" between Muslims, Christians, and Jews. They speak explicitly for understanding, moderation, women's rights, and peace. My friends, this is the voice in the Muslim community that we want to encourage! If we wish to heal from the deep wound of 9/11, we will only do it through the hard work of reaching out to each other. Crossing our arms and turning away is the easy way, what we want to do first. And we all know, when good hard work is required, what the easy way always leads to. Those who would seek to defeat what America is about would WISH us to take this road and see us angrily divide: will we do the work for them?

Signed,
A member of the Concerned American Class

Matthew 23:24| 8.5.10 @ 4:35PM

Pre-existing houses of worship should be allowed to rebuild. But let's not play coy. Leftists in NYC agencies don't hesitate to obstruct re-construction of those houses of worship -- the non-Islamic ones. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010.....ist-m.html

This has NOTHING to do with religious freedom and everything to do with Islamo-supremacism. Someone I think these concerned citizens wouldn't support neo-pagan "right" to erect a burning cross sign next to MLK memorials.

But when patriotic Americans object to jihadists opening a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium (and recruitment center) on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero-- these Leftist hypocrits shriek with indignation!

American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Americans to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Cordoba House jihadists than bromides and disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia law, as practiced by Cordoba House and their financial sponsors.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/p.....eclaration

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of Cordoba House supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists… but don’t hold your breath.

"Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!" [Matthew 23:24]

Luke 6:45| 8.5.10 @ 4:39PM

The mysogynistic sharia law advocates of Cordoba House are no good Samirtans. Ask them to repudiate their infidel hating prophet and see how far you get.

Recall Qaid al-Qadir (v.1, p.381), Muhammad told Muslims to retort to uppity infidels by saying things like, “Go bite on your mother’s clitoris!” or, according to Zad al-Mi’ad (v.3, p305), “Go bite on your dad’s penis!”

Oh prophet of Allah!…prophet of Allah….Would that you would’ve heeded your Lord Jesus’ counsel: "The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks." [Luke 6:45]

Puprle Lips| 8.5.10 @ 4:52PM

"The wording in the Cordoba Initiative's MISSION statement is about "bringing back the atmosphere of interfaith tolerance and respect" between Muslims, Christians, and Jews. "

And you miss the rich irony on thier choice of proper nouns in which to name thier house of worship. Most Muslims look at the Caliph of Cordova the way Par Buchanan looks at the 1940s and 1950s. It was a "Golden Age of Peace" in thier view. But from the perspective of those dhimis (infidels who refused to convert, and thus were granted 2nd class or serf status) it was anything but a golden age. Some revisionists insist it was a time of peace, understanding, and prospertiy. If you consider pogroms, high taxes, the ever present danger of being sold into slavery, religious and social persecution, etc.. then you have problems. In the Iberian penninsula, the large Christian houses of worship were destroyed and mosque built in thier place. Religious shrines were desecrated, and many of the women were sold off into slavery. This is what lies behind the name of Cordoba.

Has it ever occured to you that most of the Muslims here behave and appear moderate for the simple fact that they are out numbered? Go to Europe where they make up 15% of the population. See how they behave there. Or better yet, visit Lebanon. Forty years ago, Christians made up 40% of the population. Muslims since then have reduced thier numbers to less than 10%. Or Egypt, where even just 90 years ago Coptics made up 50% of the population. Today thier numbers are less than 10%, and thier members and sold into slavery. Yes, slavery is still alive and well in Islam.

Face it. You and libs like you act out of two impulses: Your hatred for orthodox Christianity, and your fear of Islam.

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 5:29PM

They treat muslims pretty terribly in Egypt too, to be fair.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 5:53PM

Who's "they"? DRed must mean Muslim on Muslim violence. Because the Coptic population isn't in a position to "treat" anyone.

It is true that once they've eatin' all the infidels, the Muslims turn to cannibalism (witness Darfur). That is a distinction without a difference.

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 1:40PM

"... bringing back the atmosphere of interfaith tolerance and respect" between Muslims, Christians, and Jews." Back? BACK? From where?

There is no tolerance in Islam.
See ye tolerance in two tall buildings falling on your head?
See ye tolerance in nuns assassinated over cartoons? CARTOONS?
See ye tolerance in beheading Jewish/American reporters for video delight?
See ye tolerance in some idiot shooting fellow soldiers in Ft Hood?
You are insane if you find tolerance in Islam.
Anybody can write a mission statement full of lies. Your naivete is showing.

expat| 8.5.10 @ 4:21PM

Jordan| 8.5.10 @ 4:01PM
The problem is a fundamental misunderstanding. The Mosque is not being built at ground zero. It's being built blocks away.
Now if you want to argue that we shouldn't have anything Muslim anywhere near ground zero then I'll propose we shouldn't have any Christian church the same distance away from locations where doctors or clinics performing abortions have been attacked and killed.
You are 'à côté de la plaque ' - sorry don't know to say that in English - but you know nothing about Islam.
Can I ask you a few questions?

expat| 8.5.10 @ 4:26PM

To El Condor : one question : Will you ALWAYS put the laws of the United States of America before Muslim laws ? Yes or No ?

expat| 8.5.10 @ 4:28PM

sorry i should have said 'Islamist' laws.

El Condor| 8.5.10 @ 4:38PM

expat: since you refused to answer my question, or address anything I said, you've implicitly given me permission not to play your silly little game. I'm not a child, and neither are any of the respectable adults on this forum. If you were in a serious face-to-face conversation, would you expect to speak that way and receive any respect? Get your head out of your rhetorical arse - this is a debate about whether it's lawful to allow an Islamic center in Lower Manhattan. What do you have to say to my points? Are are you so forensically disabled that you have to lean on your little broken-record loop?

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 4:45PM

The mysogynistic sharia law advocates of Cordoba House are no good Samiritans. Ask these (alleged) "tolerance" vendors to repudiate their infidel hating prophet and see how far you get.

Recall a hadith relayed by Abu Hurreira (deemed an extremely reliable narrator), where Muhammad sucked on the tongues of his cousin (and future caliph) Ali’s two boys, Hassan and Hussein— they of revered Shia memory. Another hadith finds Muhammad sucking on the tongue of his own daughter, Fatima. The Arabic word for “suck” (muss) cannot, as some apologists insist, mean anything but “suck.” After all this is the same word used when discussing Muhammad’s ‘activities’ with his wives, especially his beloved child-bride, Aisha.

El Condor, imagine, for a moment, coming home to find your spouse sucking on your daughter’s tongue? What would you do? It’s even worse: it’s your prophet—the most “morally upright” man, a man to be emulated by the world! A man who on record used to go around sucking the tongues of his wives, his daughters, and young boys.

Are these reprobate activities Cordoba House hopes to pimp at Ground Zero as being the pinnacle of moral perfection?

Don't be a childish apologist for Islamo-supremacism your whole life, Condor.

JP| 8.5.10 @ 4:55PM

"..this is a debate about whether it's lawful to allow an Islamic center in Lower Manhattan."

There already are mosques in lower Manhatten. As a matter of fact, there are more mosques in Manhatten than they Protestant houses of worship. So no, this isn't about religious freedom.

Debbie| 8.5.10 @ 4:49PM

Here are a couple of anolgoies that work: how would African-Americans feel about a Ku Klux Clan meeting hall erected next to a peace center highlighted by a display of Martin Luther King, Jr.'s work or how would people everywhere feel about a Neo Nazi center taking residence within the Holocaust Museum? The outrage about the proposed mosque set so close to the 9/11 site is how INAPPROPRIATE it is. I understand that the originally proposed opening date of this mosque was planned for 9/11/11. Does anyone think this is a coincidence? Wake up people!!!

DRed| 8.5.10 @ 5:00PM

No, I think it's not a coincidence, it's a myth (the 9/11/11 thing). Anyone telling you that has no idea how long it takes to build something in Manhattan.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 6:18PM

Wrong again, DRed. The 9/11/11 date was not "a myth"... it was Cordoba House's sinister proposal and served as a propaganda device, an Islamo-supremacist fund-raising booster and a jihadist recruiting tool.

Don't indulge in Ground Zero desecration denial your whole life, DRed.

dw| 8.5.10 @ 7:01PM

That's when they want to start construction.
The whole thing is a stick in the infidels eyes and many of you will freely keep your eyes wide open for it.
I am, admittingly, not as well versed in Islamic doctrine as some of you but I know deciet and danger when I see it. The same way I recognized obama for the danger he would unleash the night he spoke at the DNC and the media peed down their legs for him. I know many will not believe this but I knew he would ultimately become their nominee and predicted these results.
I am not making a direct parallel here but the evil of Hitler was there for all to see if they were so inclined. Churchill saw it but no one would listen until it was way too late. You can not see evil through the lens of conventional thinking, but must examine the behavior independent of the way you would act. Too many of these people have shown too much willfulness to acquiese their humanity to the rants of the extreme indoctrinators of this religion. We should not help but be very wary of the possible dangers inherent involving too many of the followers of this religion and in particular to the would be leader of this mosque.

Expat| 8.5.10 @ 4:50PM

@ El Condor : what question ? Sorry I didn't see it. And if you want to talk about 'arse's I'd say you're not very serious. I'd prefere to talk about the issues thank you.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 4:56PM

Condor has no question. Just facile denials of what evidence (cited above and elsewhere) has already demonstrated. Contrary to their (alleged) peaceful intentions Cordoba House is an arm of the Muslim Brotherhood.

The big baby Condor can't cite any evidence to the contrary.

Grade: F- (miserable failure)

/dismissed

El Condor| 8.5.10 @ 5:16PM

"I'd prefere to talk about the issues thank you." No you don't. You insist upon deflecting away from the conversation that Mr. Tyrrell has set for us and towards your sidebar little trope of Muslim vs. U.S. laws. The article (and debate) is about whether a mosque should be allowed in the neighborhood of the World Trade Center. I say that U.S. and NY law clearly permits it, and that reaching our to a community that wishes to reach back is exactly in keeping with our great nation's long history of plurality. Indeed, it is one of the aspects of our country that has led the rest of the world for ages.
By the way, expat, if you look at my final paragraph, you will notice that it ends with a question mark. That would be the place to look.

Respectfully,
A member of the Concerned American Class

Secular Islam| 8.5.10 @ 5:38PM

More facile denials masquerading as tolerance? *boring*

We already reach out and allow mosques all over New York and America. It is patronizing arrogance on stilts for Leftists to insist these Muslim Brotherhood affiliates of Cordoba House "represent" the Muslim community. It is an ugly smear and a slander.

Muslim-Americans repudiate Muslim Brotherhood affiliates building at Ground Zero, just as all Christians repudiate KKK efforts to burn crosses .

Where are the Leftists who support the American-Muslims who genuinely repudiate the sharia law vendors of Cordoba House? Where are you?
http://secularislam.org/blog/p.....eclaration

Steve A| 8.5.10 @ 4:50PM

Hey El Condor, Since you appear as such a champion of tolerance I offer a compromise solution. Allow the mosque to be built with the stipulation that it also house a gay & lesbian center & a theater for the Naked Cowboy to perform gigs between prayers. Welcome to NY Imam. Please display the same acceptance with which you have been afforded.

Fivish| 8.5.10 @ 4:59PM

This is how the Moslem slowly eats away at the Wests resolve. They have a Mosque in London in Regents Park. Nobody knows how it was even possible for them to get permission for it to be there as its Crown Estate. It would be like you asking to build a house in Central Park. But they have power annd influence thanks to their oil and petrol dollars. We have very little time left to reverse this 5th column of evil that encroaches ever closer and whose goal is our defeat and demise.

Mr. Joe| 8.5.10 @ 5:00PM

There are no moderate Muslims. Muslim Americans want foot baths in hotel lobbies and the right to refuse the transportation of alcohol or dogs in their cabs. The religion of Islam is against anything and everyone that is not one of them.

But to be fair about this, when all you liberals allow southerners to display the Confederate Flag at a nearby black church, or anywhere else for that matter, then I will agree to this mosque.

Wait, you say that the Confderate Flag symbolized hatred and bigotry. OK, now I get it. Bad bigotted and hateful southerners, good bigotted and hateful muslims.

I will walk my dog by this mosque and have him dump right there. And, if he isn't ready, I'll collect it and throw it there myself. How long do you think I will live if I did that. You liberals, with your gay lifestyles and same sex marriages, your porno movies, and all of your perversions will be the first ones that the Muslims will exterminate, especially the Jewish liberals like Bloomberg.

Secular Islam| 8.5.10 @ 5:14PM

Not precisely true. A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/p.....eclaration

Patriotic Americans remain breathless in anticipation of the Muslim Brotherhood jihadists of Cordoba House embracing the views of thsi genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists… but don’t hold your breath.

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 1:44PM

Patriotic Americans will truly be breathless if they hold their breaths waiting for tolerance from Muslims.

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 1:45PM

Patriotic Americans will truly be breathless if they hold their breaths waiting for tolerance from Muslims.

Jim Cap| 8.5.10 @ 8:45PM

Actually, "Mr. Joe", you sound like you're the one who wants to "exterminate" people you don't like, particularly when you talk about "Jewish liberals".

You're revealing how you really feel about all of this, aren't you? I bet you're just dying to use some racist and anti-semitic slurs, too, aren't you?

You are the type of person who gives conservatives a bad name. Just like the people at Tea Party rallies, comparing a president they disagree with to Adolf Hitler. Sick.

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 12:27AM

"the people at Tea Party rallies, comparing a president they disagree with to Adolf Hitler. Sick. " Not like the tens of thousands of references to BUSHITLER by lefties...that was "principled dissent" right?

Tim*| 8.5.10 @ 5:05PM

We Build A Hindu Temple on The Mosque's Left , A Jewish Synagogue on it's right , A Prison to The left of The Hindu Temple , a Court House to the Right of The Synagogue , and A Police Precinct House right across the street ,with a National Guard Armory next to it .

Larry| 8.5.10 @ 5:07PM

At what point did being a bigot become an American virtue ?
At what point did all Americans Muslims become second class citizens who can be told where they can build a house of worship?
Who's next?

Rev. Wright| 8.5.10 @ 5:23PM

I know this one! Being a bigot became a virtue when Larry pulled his vote lever for Rev. Wright's disciple, B. Hussein Obama.

"When it came to treating her citizens of African descent fairly, America failed. She put them in chains, the government put them on slave quarters, put them on auction blocks, put them in cotton field, put them in inferior schools, put them in substandard housing, put them in scientific experiments, put them in the lowest paying jobs, put them outside the equal protection of the law, kept them out of their racist bastions of higher education and locked them into positions of hopelessness and helplessness. The government gives them the drugs, builds bigger prisons, passes a three-strike law and then wants us to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent.."

Colonel Kaddafi| 8.5.10 @ 5:28PM

I know this one. Being a bigot became a virtue when Larry pulled his vote lever for Kaddafi's "friend."

"He is someone I consider a friend. He knows he is a son of Africa. Regardless of his African belonging, he is of Arab Sudanese descent, or of Muslim descent. He is a man whose policy should be supported, and he should be assisted in implementing it in any way possible, since he is now leaning towards peace."

expat| 8.5.10 @ 5:10PM

hey Steve A : I'm with you - all the way. I see what's happening in France (whole roads in Paris blocked by Muslims praying) Don't let it happen in the USA.

expat| 8.5.10 @ 5:16PM

@Larry "Who's next?
You Larry : you. Wake up guy.

Michael L. Hauschild| 8.5.10 @ 5:17PM

I wonder what the reaction would be if you tried to get a permit to build a Christian Church across the road from Mecca?

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 12:35AM

Well, Christians are not allowed even to enter the city of Mecca nor to bring a Bible into the country so church building is undoubtedly off the menu.
Libs are so worried about hurting Muslims' feelings by not letting them build mosques wherever they want. Muslims don't give a rat's ass about denying Christians or any non-Muslim faith any religious rights, let alone building houses of worship. Not one of 57 Muslim run states gives equal rights to non-Muslims. Tell me again why libs think it's fine for Muslims to discriminate without being called on it but shouldn't suffer discrimination themselves? That lib view advances what is a supremacist religion. What's Muslim remains exclusively theirs but what's ours has to be shared with them.

expat| 8.5.10 @ 5:22PM

"Tim*| 8.5.10 @ 5:05PM

We Build A Hindu Temple on The Mosque's Left , A Jewish Synagogue on it's right , A Prison to The left of The Hindu Temple , a Court House to the Right of The Synagogue , and A Police Precinct House right across the street ,with a National Guard Armory next to i"
So what ? Women are still stuck under veils with their genitals "excisées" and what are you doing ? DEFENDING THEM ? Shame on YOU !

Larry| 8.5.10 @ 5:37PM

I repeat..
At what point did being a bigot become an American virtue ?
At what point did all Americans Muslims become second class citizens who can be told where they can build a house of worship?
Are there any other religions that you would like to add to the list?

Rev. Wright| 8.5.10 @ 5:40PM

I repeat! Being a bigot became a virtue when Larry pulled his vote lever for Rev. Wright's disciple, B. Hussein Obama.

"'God Bless America.' No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme. The United States government has failed the vast majority of her citizens of African descent..."

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 12:38AM

Only the religions that are really ideologies incompatible with American law who are conducting active war on us. Let's see, that would be Islam and...Islam.

Tim*| 8.5.10 @ 7:02PM

They call it sarcasm .

Shove off .

Rev. Wright| 8.5.10 @ 7:32PM

Sarcasm: language of the weak.

"'God Bless America.' No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people..."

/sarc off

Ralph Averill| 8.5.10 @ 5:37PM

What of the Moslems killed at the WTC on 9/11?Were they responsible for their own deaths as well as the deaths of all the others that horrible day? What of the Christ-o-fascists who bombed the federal bldg in OK City? Are all Christians to be tarred by that act? Would we ban the construction of a church within sight of that memorial?

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 5:45PM

Where do Leftists conjure this specious notion that McVeigh was Christian? In contemporaneous accounts, McVeigh was never described as killing out of any religious motives. Nor was there any evidence McVeigh considered himself a Christian.

At his execution, Jesus Christ made no appearance in McVeigh’s rhetoric. McVeigh’s last public act before he was executed was to distribute copies of the 1875 poem “Invictus.” It begins: “I thank whatever gods may be/ for my unconquerable soul,” and ends “I am the master of my fate: I am the captain of my soul” Those sentiments are blasphemous of Christianity.

Reporting on his execution, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution described McVeigh as “an avowed agnostic” whose sudden last-minute decision to see a Catholic priest just before his execution surprised everyone who knew him. Even Barbara Ehrenreich (writing in the Progressive) didn’t portray McVeigh as having religious motives. She identified McVeigh as a “neo-Nazi mass murderer.” Lest Larry forget, Nazis (national socialists) are atheistic Marxists who venomously reject Judeo-Christianity.

In contrast, the 9-11 murderers called themselves Muslims, often attended various mosques, functioned within the mainstream Muslim community and quoted from the Quran extensively so that it is only logical for the objective observer to call them Muslims. Moreover, their Leftist-fascist fellow travelors (like Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn) remain unapologetic about their terrorist records.

Leftists need to direct their nihilistic angst toward the jihadist doctrines of their Muslim co-conspirators, rather than slinging specious grievance theories and moral equivalence arguments at Americans.

Own it, Ralphie.

Larry| 8.5.10 @ 6:20PM

The radical right should really get off the leftist conspiracy, there's a commie under every bed, gays are ruining our country, Catholics aren't real Christians, rant.
Stop this whining that America is too wimpy to have freedom of religion.
Catholics believe that there is no salvation outside their church. Fundamentalists believe that you have to be re-born to be saved. Mormons believe etc. So who's right Ralphie? Who are the true Christians? Who is going to make the list? Who is going to tally up which religion preached hate in Christ's or Muhammad's name?
Read the post's on this list and just take a moment to feel the hate directed at millions of people for the acts of a handful.
Is that what "Operation Freedom" was all about?
Radical Muslims from another country attacked us. So your position is that ALL American Muslims are less American that you? You don't see the flaw in that logic?

Unholy Alliance| 8.5.10 @ 6:34PM

Leftists should really just admit what the evidence demonstrates conclusively. You have formed an Unholy Alliance with Islamo-supremacists.
http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-A.....089526076X

Islamo-fascists attacked us on 9/11. So your position is that unless ALL Americans (including Secular Muslims who reject sharia) accept the intolerant, sharia-pedding, terrorism apologist, Muslim Brotherhood affiliates of Cordoba House as authentic representatives of ALL American Muslims than we are directing "hate"?

In short, our intolerance of advocates for murderous jihadist hatred is now redefined "hate"?

There is no logic in your specious syllogisms. But logic isn't really the goal for you taqiya peddlers, is it?

Grade: F- (miserable failure)

/dismissed

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 10:24PM

The author of the book you recommend supported the Black Panther Party.

Radical Son| 8.6.10 @ 7:50AM

Indeed, as a deluded young Marxist, Professor Horowitz did support the Black Panthers. Folks can read about David's fascinating intellectual conversion in "Radical Son: A Journey Through Our Times from Left to Right."
http://www.amazon.com/Radical-.....0684840057

Unlike, Obama and Holder (who TODAY support Black Panther thuggery), Horowitz is devoted to exposing their network of drug dealing, pimping, rape, extortion, assault, and murder.
http://www.discoverthenetworks.....grpid=7375

Don't be a dissemulating taqiya vendor your whole life, SK.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.6.10 @ 9:57AM

Thank you for showing me that a friend of a friend of Obama's is accused, without proof, by a right wing propagandist of having been a Black Panther forty years ago.

There may be medication to deal with your condition. "Dissemulating"!

Radical Son| 8.6.10 @ 10:08AM

Physician, heal thyself.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 8:03PM

Right on Stourley. I know that there are plenty of good conservatives out there, but what I read here, I see the type that says the following...my religion is better then yours, everything I do is ok, everything you do is wrong, and I will show you what a wonderful country america is by kicking muslims out (or worse), and keeping american judeo christian.
Until the rapture, when us jews are here to save those christians who will be going to heaven.

eagles4ever| 8.5.10 @ 6:28PM

I find much of the above rather offensive and un-American. A group of muslims (apparently reformist and critical of the acts of the Islamofascist school, from what I understand), want to purchase property in the free market from a willing seller. Because we don't like muslims we wish to deny them basic rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

So many of you in here bray at the liberal/Obama/socialist's destruction of the Constitution through their intrusions into the private market, etc... but your own comments show either a complete ignorance of, or totally disrespect for,m fundamental constitutional princiles in your blind hatred and wish for vengeance.

Your rants are also so completely ignorant of world history and supposedly superior Christianity (either willingly, or just through lack of education and thinking) that I'm amazed you have the IQ to even read (I didn't say comprehend, or think critically about) many of the articles in here.

The Crusades (against infidel Muslims).

Burnings at the stake.

Pedophile (hypocritical) priests.

A - Bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki (which make the fire-bombing of Dresden look like a perfectly legitimate tactic within accepted rules of combat in a war).

And I think you would find that the vast majority of murders, rapes and you name whatever other heinous crime in the USA, are committed by so-called Christians.

Get off the high-horse and lok a t yourself and your won kind before passing judgement on another's faith.

Signed
Devout Deist

St. Nick| 8.5.10 @ 6:40PM

Return Muslim-occupied Cyprus and the Hostage Ghost City of Famagusta (home of the desecrated St. Nicholas Cathedral)— then Islamo-supremacists of Cordoba House (and their Leftist-fascist allies) can howl about their alleged “right” to desecrate Ground Zero.

St. Nicholas called— he’d like his cathedral back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S....._Of_Cyprus

VIDEO: Famagusta, The Hostage Ghost City of Europe @ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcfBJ7DimB8

Don't be a sneering Islamo-supremacism advocate your whole life, Deist.

eagles4ever| 8.5.10 @ 6:55PM

Obviously you are an idiot with nothing intelligent to say and couldn't care less about reason or the facts.

FYI - I do not subscribe to any organized religion and certainly not Islam (I am white of pure Anglo heritage and have never even read the Koran -- but hey, don't let the facts intrude on your idiotic contribution).

I am a free-thinker -- as were a great many of our founding fathers (notably Jefferson, Washinton, Madison, Hamilton -- who was also what we would recognize as gay, BTW.)

That is why, in the Declaration of Independence you will not find paens to any Christian or other god, but rather the invocation of "Nature's God" and our "Creator". These are quite deliberately deistic (even naturalist) expressions, giving no primacy to any particular religion. No reference to god at all in the Constitution.

First Amendment specifically prohibits governmental discrimination based on religion. As I said, I believe in the Constitution. I love the values it represents. What I find disturbing is so many so-called "American patriots" willing to ignore the plain words in our foundational documents in a xenophobically charged (aka. racist) condemnation of a group's legitimate exercise of those rights.

Your thoughts?

St. Nick| 8.5.10 @ 7:21PM

Do Deists really imagine any zoning board would permit erecting a Hedonism Center (aka, strip club) across the street from Ground Zero to demonstrate our tolerance for those who worship at the altar of the pleasure principle?

Free expression is not sacrosanct, Deist. The whole purpose of zoning boards is to regulate architectural expression. Your specious appeals to 1st amendment are very silly strawmen.

I'm in favor of censorship, and so are the courts. The only difference is (if you're a typical Leftist), you either won't admit it or you don't know it. But look: If you think it's a good idea for the government (federal, state, or local) to keep Triple-X porn off of Saturday-morning cartoon-hour TV, you're in favor of censorship. If you don't think neo-Nazis should be allowed to make presentations at your kid's public school's career day, you're in favor of censorship. Heck, if you think the federal government is right to block cigarette companies from advertising to kids, you, my friend, are in favor of censorship.

So the relevant question — which is invariably overlooked — isn't whether or not you are "for" or "against" censorship. The relevant question is, What and where do we want to censor? And how much censorship do we want on the public square?

Don't be a free expression contortionist for sharia law your whole life, Deist.

eagles4ever| 8.5.10 @ 7:33PM

Can't argue with the Devil. You win your own argument, but haven't said a word addressing mine.

Sleep tight

St. Nick| 8.5.10 @ 7:46PM

Checkmate. You lose.

Try not to bedwet again, Deist.

Grade: F- (miserable failure)

/dismissed

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 6:44PM

Sorry, Deist, but there are already numerous mosques in downtown Manhattan. Nobody suggested removing them.

Conversely, there is no Constitutional "right" for Islamo-facists of Cordoba House to desecrate Ground Zero by erecting a monument to Islamo-supremacism on the graves of our sacred 9-11 dead.

Neo-pagan KKK extremists don't have any inherent "right" to build burning crosses adjacent to MLK memorials.

Might (or money) does not make right.

The evidence of history clearly demonstrates that the 20th century’s bloodiest mass murderers-- Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Honneker, Mussolini, Caeucescu, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi, il Sung, Mugabe, Mengistu, Castro, Che, PFLP, PKK, FMLN, FARC, IRA, ETA, Red Army faction, Shining Path, Rachel Carson, etc., ad nauseum-- were all inspired by atheistic Marxism.

100 million corpses don’t lie. Show some intellectual honesty and own it, Christianophobic Leftists.

Get off your Islamo-supremacism advocacy and look at your Leftist-fascist history before sneering at our patriotic American defense of Ground Zero.

eagles4ever| 8.5.10 @ 7:01PM

Hmmm... 2 peas in a pod you and the Devil above.

Never has a moniker adopted been more inappropriate, as you clearly have nothing rational or intelligent to say.

You are free to believe whatever you want. But you can't change the facts. Nor, thankfully, are you in a position to have any say in defining the Constitution. I think you need to justify your willingness to ignore the Constitution to fulfill your own hate-filled view of the world. I call your view un-American. No doubt you harbor a whole host of other treasonous sentiments as well.

There is a remedy for that.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 7:12PM

The odious game of playing footsie with terrorists is finally coming to a close.

Former Congressman Pleads Guilty to Obstructing Justice, Acting as Unregistered Foreign Agent
http://kansascity.fbi.gov/dojp.....070710.htm

A former congressman and U.S. ambassador to the United Nations pleaded guilty in federal court today to obstruction of justice and to acting as an unregistered foreign agent related to his work for an Islamic charity with ties to international terrorism, announced Beth Phillips, U.S. Attorney for the Western District of Missouri...

[Clearly, the Leftist's "Constitutional" arguments are with the Obama Justice Department. Those puckering sounds you hear are the tightening sphincters of CAIR members and their Cordoba House affiliates who raised money for Hamas.]

There is a remedy for that, too.

eagles4ever| 8.5.10 @ 7:34PM

Can't argue with the an idiot. They just drag you down to their own level and then beat you with experience.

You win your own argument, but haven't said a word addressing mine.

Sleep tight

Anti-idiotarian| 8.5.10 @ 7:39PM

Checkmate. You lose.

Try not to bedwet again, Deist.

Grade: F- (miserable failure)

/dismissed

Todd| 8.5.10 @ 10:00PM

F%$# you and that pathetic coward of a man who fancies himself King of NYC! Liberal aholes like you will protest against building a Wal-Mart but think it is just peachy to build a Mosque right by ground zero. You are probably the type that thought the US had it coming on 9/11, am I right you piece of garbage? Judgment day is going to be a bitch for you that is for sure

JimE| 8.6.10 @ 2:07AM

More jibberish from a leftist useful idiot. I suggest you do some research on CAIR.

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 12:45AM

Only a moral midget brings up McVeigh as some kind of Christian equivalent to thousands of Muslims killing thousands of innocent victims, half a million in Sudan alone. Since the world's Muslims in addition do not criticize their co-religionists for ongoing mass slaughter, it's proof positive that they all read from the same playbook, just some do the actual killing but all approve of it as their bloodthirsty God and warlord prophet commanded non-Muslims be killed converted or turned into dhimmi (second class citizens paying extra taxes). There's no category "can keep your religion, your life and equal rights" in any Muslim dominated country.

Smitty| 8.5.10 @ 5:41PM

There are millions of square miles in the United States and there are thousands of acres in Manhattan yet, somehow, this 15 storey mosque has to be built within 600 feet of Ground Zero.
It's not reconciliation, it's triumphalism, another stick in your eye. Don't like it? Too bad.

Mo wuvs O| 8.5.10 @ 5:43PM

I repeat! Being a bigot became a virtue when Larry pulled his vote lever for Kaddafi's "friend."

"He is someone I consider a friend. He knows he is a son of Africa. Regardless of his African belonging, he is of Arab Sudanese descent, or of Muslim descent. He is a man whose policy should be supported, and he should be assisted in implementing it in any way possible, since he is now leaning towards peace."

expat| 8.5.10 @ 6:04PM

My general impression here (because I'm new) Is that you are a bunch of babies. Grow up. Islam is here. They want to colonise us. We fight or give up. I prefer to fight.

Tim*| 8.5.10 @ 7:05PM

Yeah right , you're a keyboard mouth fighter .

David G.| 8.5.10 @ 6:37PM

I fear it was the 'country class' that persecuted my ancestors and drove them out of Missouri and then Illinois because they did not agree with their brand of religion. All too often, this class reacts out of ignorance, fear or hate. And let's be honest, isn't it a little disingenuous to say that they are trying to build a mosque at ground zero? It's 2 blocks away, and as a New Yorker, I can tell you that ain't ground zero.

Secular Islam| 8.5.10 @ 6:58PM

Pre-existing houses of worship should be allowed to rebuild. But let's not play coy. Leftists in NYC agencies don't hesitate to obstruct re-construction of those houses of worship -- the non-Islamic ones. http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010.....ist-m.html

This has NOTHING to do with religious freedom and everything to do with Islamo-supremacism. Someone I think these concerned citizens wouldn't support neo-pagan "right" to erect a burning cross sign next to MLK memorials.

But when patriotic Americans object to jihadists opening a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium (and recruitment center) on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero-- these Leftist hypocrits shriek with indignation!

American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Americans to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Cordoba House jihadists than bromides and disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia law, as practiced by Cordoba House and their financial sponsors.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/p.....eclaration

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of Cordoba House supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists… but don’t hold your breath.

"Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!" [Matthew 23:24]

Anti-Quisling| 8.5.10 @ 6:55PM

Quislings don’t confront real evil; and hate those who do. You can see this on almost any school playground. The kid who confronts the school bully is often resented more than the bully. Whether out of guilt over their own cowardice or out of fear that the one who confronted the bully will provoke the bully to lash out more, those who refuse to confront the bully often resent the one who does.

Today, Leftist-Quislings express that cowardly contempt for those of us who take a hard line with Cordoba House. It’s ever our fault (you see) for provoking the bully. Better to remain supine while the terrorism advocates satisfy themselves raising money for terrorists; tormenting American widows and orphans at Ground Zero; erecting their monument to Islamo-triumphalism.

The Quisling answer: Just display false "compassion", stay quiet, and hope the crocs eat them last.

There’s a word for that: Cowardice.

Own it, Quislings.

Jim Cap| 8.5.10 @ 8:39PM

Hey, "Anti-Quisling" (LOL about that name of yours.)

You seem a bit confused, miss. I'll try and help you out. The men who flew the planes into the World Trade Center were criminals and murderers.

Every Muslim in the world did not participate in that murderous act. The Muslim religion isn't responsible for it.

Christians bombed the 16th Street Baptist Church in Birmingham in 1963. Does that mean all Christians were responsible? Should any Christian churches or buildings be banned from that neighborhood?

Maybe you need something to do with your life?

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 12:51AM

Another moral midget who thinks a single incident 40 years ago balances the scale of Muslim atrocities, thousands of deaths, around the world, half a million in Sudan alone. Do leftists have any idea of scale whatsoever or are they truly so stupid as to be completely math illiterate giving "one" the same weight as "thousands"? Ask Hindus what they think of Muslims.

JimE| 8.6.10 @ 2:11AM

Jim Cap I suggest you di something with your life other than giving muslims orally administered anal massages.

Anti-Quisling| 8.7.10 @ 6:00PM

Why do Leftists sling this specious slander that neo-pagan KKK terrorists are "Christian"?

The irony (of course) is that their silly pro-sharia mosque "logic" would insist Americans prove we aren't bigots by also supporting (say) neo-pagan demands to emolate Crann Tara monuments next to MLK memorials.

Keep in mind, the 9-11 murderers called themselves Muslims, often attended various mosques, functioned within the mainstream Muslim community and quoted from the Quran extensively so that it is only logical for the objective observer to call them Muslims. Moreover, their Leftist-fascist fellow travelors (like Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn) remain unapologetic about their terrorist records.

Leftists need to direct their nihilistic angst toward the jihadist doctrines of their Muslim co-conspirators, rather than slinging specious grievance theories and moral equivalence arguments at Americans.

Own it, Jimbo.

John Paul | 8.5.10 @ 7:02PM

eagleswhatever: where were you on 9-11-2001?
You could not have watched New Yorkers running for their lives. In minutes, a doctor had a card table set up...taking blood ...and he had a donor...within minutes. Fire Fighters bravely entering the crumbling buildings, digging for humans under the rubble. Muslims in foreign countries cheering? And you want them to plant the most insulting affront on that site....the world
will see this as a sign of a conquered America. No true American will do work on that site without being considered a traitor to his country.Instead I say every person within walking distance plant a small flag on that site and the marching protestors should be there singing the National Anthem....you know, that glorious patriotic music the president of this country can't stand.

Doug Wakeman| 8.5.10 @ 7:21PM

Screw New York. 9 years after 9/11/2001, ground zero is still a big hole in the ground. After the great Rudy, they put an Islamo-Nazi sympathizer in as mayor. Their congressional delegation is full of sympathizers, crooks and Leftists. New York has already gone dhimmi. They deserve to have a huge symbol of their subjugation and shame towering over them every day of their lives. Oh, but ground zero belongs to all Americans, you say. The same Americans that put Barack Hussein Obama in the White house?

elhombrelibre| 8.6.10 @ 11:39AM

DW,

While your contempt for the New York Lefties is understandable, a triumphal mosque to celebrate the Islamists attack on the US (the real motive for this 100 million dollar monstrosity), is an affront to all Americans. The Left celebrates only our diversity, never our unity. [Unity of language, law, custom, and nationhood is what makes us strong, not self-loathing championing of diversity that cannot distinguish friend from foe). Let the Left be the ones who have contempt for America, please. Conservatives, I think, should not stoop to that.

mohmo| 8.5.10 @ 7:32PM

Sadly, as with immigration and gay marriage, it will be a federal judge who ultimately decides whether the mosque is built.

Therese| 8.5.10 @ 7:40PM

The Muslims have a habit of doing this. They did it with Cordoba and the Dome of the Rock. No mosque at ground zero. Put it someplace else.

The Buddha| 8.5.10 @ 7:45PM

Return occupied Constantinople and the sacred Hagia Sophia (Christendom’s 2nd most holy cathedral)-- then Islamo-supremacists of Cordoba House (and their Leftist-fascist allies) can howl about their alleged “right” to desecrate Ground Zero.

Those interested in exploring the history of apartheid Islamo-supremacism in a more scholarly manner may read, “The Legacy of Jihad” @
http://www.andrewbostom.org/loj/

The Buddha called— he’d really like his Bamiyan monuments back.

Larry| 8.5.10 @ 8:00PM

anti-idolitarian
I was going to be polite in my response but, I'm sorry, you're an idiot and have no right to think of yourself as patriotic when you call a mosque where primarily American citizens worship a," monument to Islamo-supremacism."
Are synagogues monuments to Christ killers?
Are Catholic churches monuments to slaughtered heretics?
MOST MUSLIMS ARE NOT "ISLAMO_SUPREMACIST" .
And to say that any place of worship desecrates the ground is an insult to the thousands of Americans of all creeds, including Muslims, who died there.
Shame on you.
And, by the way, the KKK consider themselves a Christian organization relying on the bible for inspiration. By your logic, all christian churches should be banned anywhere near a black church.

JimE| 8.6.10 @ 2:12AM

Islam is a cult, not a religion.

JimE| 8.6.10 @ 9:06PM

JimE, what makes a religion a religion and a cult a cult. Is mormonism a cult? is catholism a cult? Some believe it. And I guess if they believe, its true also!

Anti-idiotarian| 8.6.10 @ 8:14AM

I don't know how many times I need to repeat the message before it sinks into Larry's thick skull-- but my patience is spent with these lying Leftist idiotarians.

This has NOTHING to do with removing ALL mosques (contrary to Larry's illogical strawman rhetoric) and everything to do with the Islamo-supremacism of Cordoba House, in particular. Somehow, I think Larry (and his Leftist ilk) wouldn't support neo-pagans' "right" to erect an eternal Crann Tara monument next to MLK memorials.

But when patriotic Americans object to stealth jihadists-- and (yes) that accurately describes the Cordoba House cabal-- opening a 9/11 snuff porn vendor emporium (and jihadi recruitment center) on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero-- Larry the Leftist hypocrit shrieks with indignation!

American Muslims may be the very soul of moderation. But I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Americans to ask for more from (allegedly) “peaceful” Cordoba House jihadists than insincere bromides and disingenuous whitewashing of uncomfortable elements of Islamic sharia law, as practiced by the Cordoba House cabal and their financial sponsors.

A genuine tiny minority of anti-jihadist Muslims may be found @
http://secularislam.org/blog/p.....eclaration

Americans remain breathless in anticipation of the sharia law vendors of Cordoba House supporting this genuinely tiny minority of their co-religionists-- but don’t hold your breath.

"Ye blind guides, that strain out the gnat, and swallow the camel!" [Matthew 23:24]

steven| 8.8.10 @ 2:15PM

Anti - I'll give you credit because you use lot's o big adult words. But you are really clueless. Larry said nothing wrong.

"on the hallowed graves of Ground Zero" It's being built a couple of blocks away from the WTC, so it's not being built on the WTC site.

You and your others, who range from violating the constitution to implying violence against Muslims in this country, never seem to say how far away or how close to the site CAN it be built. Is a block away, 2 blocks, 4 blocks, etc.

While we are at it, if YOU were in charge and could do anything you want, how would you resolve this? Obviously you would cancel the building but what would you do?

CantGetRight| 8.5.10 @ 8:10PM

Land of the free and home of the brave. We are Americans and aren't scared of anything let alone some mosque, where ever it is. Let them have their mosque like we let Christians have their church wherever they want, if something comes out of their we don't like we squash them. All this talk about not letting the build sends the message that Americans are scared, fear Islam, well are you? Are you prepared to let radical Islam scare you so much that you want to blame a billion people because of 13 lunatics? Where do you draw the line?

Jim Cap| 8.5.10 @ 8:34PM

Well said. I agree.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 10:11PM

Count me as a fellow patriot, guys.

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 1:05AM

It's got nothing to do with being scared. It's being disgusted but I have to say the Islamists pressing for their advantage are less disgusting than Americans like the ones on this thread stupid enough to be their tools or "useful idiots" as Lenin called all patsies for totalitarianisms. The patsies don't know the first thing about Islam to be discussing it exclusively in terms of a religion when it is an ideology that does not separate mosque and state and has religious law (sharia) that is incompatible with Western law. The face Muslims show infidels as they pejoratively call anyone non-Muslim including atheists is very different when they are a small minority trying to get more concessions, when they achieve critical mass at 15% as in France and riot to enforce their will, and when they become the majority as in Egypt, then Lebanon and institute religious law. Gays and women are among the first to find out the differences when Muslims dominate. Maybe weenie white lib men are looking forward to swaggering around in a new dominant role under Islam? But life as a dhimmi is pretty crappy and even if they convert, converts are never allowed near the levers of power and all the usual lib preoccupations like casual sex, abortion, music, the arts are banned. Anyone lazy about bowing and scraping to Allah five times a day gets reported...so lib men will find their lives almost as intolerable as women.

JimE| 8.6.10 @ 2:14AM

Another moron who grovels at islam's anus.

steven| 8.8.10 @ 2:19PM

JimE, you seem to be an expert at Anuses

Discover Imam Rauf| 8.6.10 @ 8:34AM

Sheesh. Here we go again. The only way to prove Americans aren't scared of neo-pagan racist is to support their demands to build Crann Tara monuments next to MLK memorials.

The only way to prove we're not terrified of communists is to support Marxist demands to build statues of Stalin next to the Lincoln Memorial.

All this talk of submission to Rauf's demands sends the message that Leftists are all Quislings and cowards. Are Leftist idiotarians prepared to let Cordoba House intellectually bully them so much that they accept the false assertion that Rauf's sharia law advocacy is (somehow) representative of a billion people?

/absurdity on stilts

steven| 8.8.10 @ 2:16PM

Well said, I concur completely. Bloomberg described the reasoning accurately.

Larry Linn| 8.5.10 @ 8:27PM

The Constitution of the United States of America states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.."
Case closed

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 1:09AM

That doesn't apply to building places of worship. There are plenty of laws, many of them whimsical on where those can be sited. So your officious "case closed" is just ignorant.

So lefties have finally found a religion they want to promote and wouldn't you know it, it's the most barbaric backward one on the face of the planet. It must be that whiff of totalitarianism that lefties love, even when it's totalitarianism that squashes all that lefties pretend to hold dear...

steven| 8.6.10 @ 2:22PM

actually it does. and your stereotyping of leftists is not really that surprising. The only way a religious building can't be built is for health hazards, parking issues, etc.

Face it. There is a constitutional right to allow the building, you are wrong that anyone other then Muslims want to promote it, and again, stereotyping all leftists. But it's alot easier to stereotype then then it is to actually look at the facts, isn't it.

Jim Cap| 8.5.10 @ 8:32PM

Sorry, Emmett. This one won't fly.

By your logic, if Timothy McVeigh happened to be Jewish, you would then consider it "inappropriate" to build a synagogue anywhere near the site of the federal building in Oklahoma City.

The fact that this group of murderers happened to be Muslim is irrelevant and incidental. Unless, of course, you're blaming all Muslims, and their religion, for the murders committed by specific individuals on September 11, 2001.

Is that what you're doing?

Laine| 8.6.10 @ 1:16AM

Jim Cap has apparently been in coma both before and after 9/11 since he appears to think this is the only incident of Muslims attacking non-Muslims. If he wasn't in coma, there's no excuse for such gross stupidity. Yes, Muslims should be held responsible when thousands of their co-religionists over the past two decades kill thousands of innocents of every religion around the world, when they deprive non-Muslims of their human rights in 57 of 57 Muslim run countries, when a country that routinely threatens Israel with the second holocaust pursues nukes, and when none but a handful of Muslims object to these outrages.

ton| 8.6.10 @ 6:16PM

Thank you, Laine.
Unlike the semi-literate leftists whose ignorance appears solidly impenetrable in the face of facts, history, rational exegesis, elementary logic and simple common sense, you appear to know something of Muslin history and are therefore capable and willing to face reality.
Leftists defend Islam, in defiance of all logic and reason and even self-interest, because: (a) they don't know anything about its history, beliefs and practices, (2) they don't wish to know anything about the above for fear that reality will challenge dimly-held delusions and sterotypes (3) they, in defiance of ALL evidence to the contrary, have assigned Muslims to their preferred victim class, along with other non-white and non-Christians and (4) they hate and fear Christianity (hence these pathetic attempts to equate the occasional lone white murderer with 1300 years of Muslim atrocities and millions of corpses).
Sadly, as Lenin recognized, useful idiots abound, and are always the first to be disposed of when their favored regime assumes power.
Thanks again.

steven| 8.8.10 @ 2:18PM

So ton, you sound so smart...tell me if you were running the show and could do anything you want how would you handle the muslim issue?

Funny though, I have asked this question, no response. Easier to respond then to come up with ideas, isn't it.

mac| 8.5.10 @ 9:19PM

I think to call their bluff we (as in all who think that the placement of this mosque in an atrocity) should all donate to a fund to build a synagogue next door and listen to the Muslims scream!

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 10:10PM

I'm with you all the way, mac! I'm glad you get the point that the lefties are making: it's not Islam they love, rather it's the freedom to build a synagogue.

JPs| 8.5.10 @ 9:27PM

I dont like mosques near ground zero
I don't like mosques in America
They go in islam and muslim countries, only there
Don't mix oil and water

Stourley Kracklite| 8.5.10 @ 10:06PM

Don't compare my country to nations that do not have religious freedom, JPs.

St. Nick| 8.6.10 @ 8:54AM

The U.S. outlawed Mormon polygamy in the nineteenth century; considerations of religious freedom are not considered absolute.

Today, government agencies do not hesitate to put roadblocks in the way of the construction of houses of worship— at least non-Islamic ones. St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church stood in the shadow of the World Trade Center and was crushed under the rubble when the towers collapsed on September 11, 2001. Almost nine years later it has still not been rebuilt; the rebuilding project is mired in bureaucracy, with New York City officials being uncooperative and throwing up roadblock after roadblock.

Nobody assumes that any religious group has an absolute "right" to build a house of worship wherever it wants, except (apparently) in this case.

But once this mega-mosque is built, if it is, I expect that many who today are anxious to prove their multiculturalist, non-“bigoted” bona fides will rue the day.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.6.10 @ 10:07AM

The Port Authority says construction of the new St. Nicholas Church, which will be significantly bigger than the old one, is expected to begin by the end of 2012. Unlike the plans for the Cordoba House, the construction of St. Nicholas is being funded with public money.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.6.10 @ 1:49PM

Thank you for the lovely images of European mosques! What a great vacation you had. You may also enjoy visiting The Great Mosque of Cordoba:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Mosque_of_Córdoba

Of course, it's home to the Catholic church now.

Anti-idiotarian| 8.6.10 @ 7:27PM

You mean the Church of Vicent built in 600AD, long before Mohammed was born or Islam existed? That sacred church descrated by Muslims? That a rare case of Christian infidels reconquista?

I can see why an Islamo-supremacism apologist would invoke Osama bin Laden's rhetoric.

Thanks for showing your true colors, Qaeda propagandist. Makes it easier for NSA to track your URL and target the drones.

/dismissed

Stourley Kracklite| 8.6.10 @ 10:37PM

"Makes it easier for NSA to track your URL and target the drones."

This is the attitude that is despised. And makes those who might otherwise be our allies sympathetic to the despisers.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 2:23PM

If you were in charge how would you handle Muslims in America? What would you do if you had your way?

JPs| 8.8.10 @ 2:08PM

JPs, I bet there are people who don't want synagogues built either. I guess if someone doesn't like them either, they shoudn't go up either.

whybs on twitter| 8.5.10 @ 9:53PM

when do religious folks stop forcing down non believers' throats -- no "in god we trust" or "so help me god" crap?

Secular Islam| 8.6.10 @ 8:42AM

When will areligious folks support Secular Islam advocates' right to live free from the sharia law intimidation of Cordoba House advocates?

Be advised these sharia-fascists have their eyes on your throat, too.

Kerry| 8.5.10 @ 10:56PM

Gosh, seems like Paulio, Steven, Larry, kenneth, et. al. are very dedicated in their collective (no pun intended) efforts to convince all y'all Country Class folks that y'all: stoopid, bigoted, intolerant, and ignorant. They obviously have a lot of time on their hands to respond as much as they do. Almost like they have a job to do?
They seem sincere in their disdain of y'all's lack of true insight into why no one can object to such an innocent thing as constitutionally protected religious freedom. I imagine they are equally as emphatic in their support of prayer in schools. Unfortunately all their fatuous reasoning comes down to this: the Cordoba dawa mosque should be built when a Baptist church is granted building permits ANYWHERE in Saudi Arabia or Iran. Let us match tolerance with tolerance. Hey, even better, the dawa mosque can be built if you can just distribute some innocent Bibles in Mecca. It would be very educational for them to try the Bible thing. In Saudi, distribution of Bibles is a crime equal to rape, murder, armed robbery, and in Saudi Arabia you get the same punishment- the death penalty. Welcome the land of peace and tolerance. Hey guys, you are all for freedom of expression. It surely is logical you are supporting the promulgation of such a lovely and tolerant faith.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.6.10 @ 7:38AM

We are promoting the freedom to build synagogues, Kerry. It is a sad day when Americans advocate matching intolerance with intolerance.

Janey| 8.6.10 @ 7:43PM

When Baby Boomers eventually grow up, they will realize they have given our country away one mosque at a time...UNITE and defend the religious freedom we already have (before a couple freaks moved into our neighborhoods and started yelling their heads off about how much they don't like Nativity scenes and Christmas carols. This is NIMBY with a twist: Not In Muslim's Back Yard!!

Lu D| 8.5.10 @ 10:59PM

Islam is an evil cult. Read their history, it is O.K. to lie to infidels, it is fine to treat women like property. When we can build Churches in Saudia Araba they can build Mosques in America. As far as I am concerned every Muslin should be get their butts out of America. They are evil lying barbarians

IzeHavitt| 8.6.10 @ 12:53AM

One of the politicians behind this is Michael Bloomberg. Mayor Bloomberg is of the Jewish heritage. Unfortunately, he is one of those who have failed to learn the lessons of history and would have us to suffer the consequences of that. He reminds me of that type of idealistic, starry eyed Jew who thought that an accomodation could be reached with the Nazis. That is, until the cattle cars transporting them arrived at Auschwitz... or Treblinka...or Buchenwald. I am also reminded of the first lesson taught in a must read book for all concerned, "The Art of War"; and that is this: Leadership must never- EVER- lose it's nerve. Bloomberg, et al. have clearly lost their nerve, and should be removed from office for their abject spinelessness and stupidity. I will further remind all concerned that it is We, The People, who are sovereign here, and not a bunch of governement officials, or a turncoat media. The Tenth Amendment gives us that right- period. Let us recognize that the above, as well as the Islamists behind this, are all enemies of the Constitution.
And let us never lose our nerve. See also Matthew 7: 25-29.

deltablues| 8.6.10 @ 4:41AM

Let me tell you that strong opposition to this mosque is embraced by many Westerner non-Americans, including me (Australian - and with many years experience of living and working in the Middle East).
BTW, Islam in Arabic translates as submission, not peace. It is the religion of submission - you submit to Islam. Peace has nothing to do with it, especially if you do not submit.

Steve Paramore| 8.6.10 @ 9:51AM

You know, I realize that my personal outlook on mosques and Muslims is not completely in-line with all of our American precepts.....fine, I own that and even embrace it with all my heart and soul. No mosque belongs in 'seeing' distance of ground zero. no mosque belongs in America, and no Muslims has any reason to be on any American soil. They subscribe to a religion that 'preaches' DEATH to any one that doesn't bend a knee, pucker up, and believe as they do. "Death to the infidel !" I believe is their mantra. Why don't you pay us rednecked, patriotic, 'true' Americans a visit here in southern Alabama, and try this push your way in, arrogant, b.s. feces......guarantee we got something will cure you !!

Pohknee| 8.6.10 @ 10:24AM

The laws of nature say that what goes up must come down. Only question is when?

er| 8.6.10 @ 10:43AM

Islam is indeed an evil, idolatrous religion. We have seen its fruit in the heinous acts committed by those who are actually true to the Koran. The agenda of any "good" Muslim is submission of all peoples to allah and if people refuse, they are to be eradicated. Anyone who really understands the history of Islam knows the symbolism behind building a mosque at this particular site. Let it be built elsewhere in the City if it's so important to the Muslim community. However, true justice demands that the erection of a mosque at this site be forever prohibited.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 9:03PM

Your opinion of true justice is a farce. I agree 100 with you that it's YOUR justice if you were in charge, but this Mosque is being supported by Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus, among others. You seem to know more then other people. They have the right to build it, you have the right to hate anyone who is Islamic, and I guess you have the right to believe anything you want.

Brenda| 8.6.10 @ 10:52AM

Intolerance to Musllim Culture by most American's are derived from the continuous push for socialistic dominance and and the forced tactics to instill their religion upon all citizens of this great nation. The intent of building a mosque near ground zero is tactic to spit in the face of Americans and show contempt for lives lost in 911. Not only do I feel the need to rid our country of the illegal immigrants but also all the muslims who are in this country with visa's, green cards, & diplomatic diplomacy. If we are to tighten our borders then let's do it up right the first time.

elhombrelibre| 8.6.10 @ 11:19AM

It's interesting that some on the Left on are now keen to support religion. Apparently, they've now found in the Constitution a right for a religion (Islam) to build its places of worship wherever it wants. These are the same folks who are constantly hounding other religions for any public displays of faith , I'm sure, and smearing them as bigots.

The Left shares one thing in common with the Islamists; they both disdain the US and want the US to be radically changed. The alliance of the Left and the Islamists will last as long as they can both work together for the goal of destroying our constitution and our way of life.

elhombrelibre| 8.6.10 @ 11:27AM

Also worth reading:

http://townhall.com/columnists.....round_zero

elhombrelibre| 8.6.10 @ 11:50AM

Where does President Obama stand on this issue? No local issue is too far beyond his all-knowing rule. Why has he not weighed in on this?

Rev. Wright| 8.6.10 @ 12:23PM

You mean my disciple, Barry Soetoro?

"...God Bless America? No, no, no, not God Bless America. God damn America — that's in the Bible — for killing innocent people. God damn America, for treating our citizens as less than human. God damn America, as long as she tries to act like she is God, and she is supreme."

Matt Matuszewski| 8.6.10 @ 12:58PM

Regardless of the supposed good intentions of nameless entities behind the planning and funding of the Mosque at the 9/11 on-site, off-site or whatever site location, the core of the whole matter is just what does such a gesture signify? What would a Japanese monument signify at Pearl Harbor?
In my humble opinion, it takes some big brass ones to propose such an idea, and a complete absence of "them" to publicly support it.

tellok| 8.6.10 @ 1:20PM

And small towns can't put up nativity scenes at Christmas time....now where did I put that arsenic....

Gary| 8.6.10 @ 2:02PM

Where's the Arsenic? The real question is, who are you going to feed it to first?

There are so many candidates. You could start with the dimbulbs that told small towns they couldn't put up nativity scenes, and work your way up from there.

Janey| 8.6.10 @ 7:32PM

Gary couldn't be more right. It's so simple a kindergarten kid could figure it out. Every town who bent to the pressure of one whack job insisting that nativity scenes be banned should have its incorporation yanked until it represents and upholds the rights of the citizen majority with respect to religious customs and traditions, especially Nativity scenes at Christmastime. We need to work on our immigration policies NOW to exclude muslims from entering our borders when it's so obviously the goal of islamists to annex the U.S. onto the Arabian empire. God bless America! Here's to throwing all of my shoes at jihad junkies.

patriot| 8.6.10 @ 5:15PM

When the mosque begins playing the sound that Nobama loves to hear (the Islamic Call to Prayer) and all of NYC can hear it, all the way to Ground Zero, what then?

jstwndring| 8.6.10 @ 5:55PM

This is madness. I don't want mosques anywhere in our country at this point. Muslims are weasling their way into our political culture and working toward creating Sharia law to dominate us with. Hell, we elected one (B.Heussein) president, so, i'm not surprised, but, it has to stop. The followers of Islam have declared war on us. Freedom of religion does not need to be carried out to the point of our own destruction. Islam has zero tolerance for any other point of view--religious, legal, or, political. That means it has zero tolerance of other's Constitutional freedoms. Therefore, it should have zero place in this country. I hate all enemies to our freedom, whether it be Marxists, the followers of Islam, or, whoever.

Tolerance is all well and good--as long as everyone is tolerent of everyone else's liberty. Otherwise, you're not welcome.

steven| 8.6.10 @ 8:59PM

Jstwndring, what would you do if you were running the show? How would you handle the muslim population, what laws would you pass or change if you were able to do anything you want?

Paulio| 8.6.10 @ 9:09PM

I'll tell you what I'd do! I'd make it illegal to practice Islam in this country. Because in my copy here of the Constitution (which I got by sending away to the Glenn Beck show), it specifically states that the 14th amendment does not and never will apply to Muslims.

I expect Jstwndring agrees.

steven| 8.8.10 @ 2:04PM

Paulino, I find it funny that no one has answered my question that I presented to Jst..

Once again none of these people have the balls to answer the question, none of them answer how far it should be away from WTC, none of them APPEAR to live in Manhattan...

Simply put, they seem to want to react but don't have an answer. A few though imply that they would through violent means do something about it, but they seem to want others to make a decision.

By the way, please send me Glen Becks version of the constitution. I want to see if it compare's to the fox version. I bet they are similar..

But does your version say "sucker" at the bottom?

Paulio| 8.9.10 @ 2:36PM

"Wanting to react but not having an answer" is probably the single most concise description of the republican party that I've heard. That's what all this has been about. The birth certificate, Reverend Wright, Bill Ayers, Sotomayor, etc.

At this juncture in our country's history, the last thing we need is irrational reaction in response to these great challenges. Countries need opposition parties, to be sure. But the GOP is not able to provide coherent opposition that will at any point get the country moving on the right track again.

We're screwed.

AARON| 8.6.10 @ 10:09PM

SAY "NO!" TO THE "BLOOMBERG MOSQUE"...

No religious facility should be built on, near, or within sight of Ground Zero. Instead there should be a Memorial Wall built on the Ground Zero site engraved with the names, nationalities, and religious faiths of all the victims.

Imagine the Statue of Liberty with it's nose and ears cut off, like happened to the Afghan girl shown on the cover of this week's Newsweek Magazine. I see the hole in her face as an analogy to Ground Zero, a hole in America's face, perpetrated by the same Muslim Jihadists. It should clarify our stake in the War on Terror, be it here, in Afghanistan, Iraq, and throughout the world.

The names of the Muslim victims of 9/11 -- not of the Al-Quaeda Terrorists, who commandeered the jets, turning them into flying Molotov Cocktails -- should well be carved into a Memorial Wall, as should the names of all of the victims, annotating the nations and faiths of each. To build any religious facility for any one faith at the site -- especially the faith of the perpetrators -- would by definition be exclusive of persons of other faiths. This would be the height of effrontery, something that former Mayor Giuliani understood, when he rejected the $10-million donation check from the Saudi Prince at Ground Zero ensuing the destruction of the Twin Towers. Mayor Bloomberg's lack of proper perception and lack of sensibility in this matter is stunning and shameful.

As to the alleged Constitutional Right to construct a Mosque proximal to Ground Zero or anywhere else in NYC or in the USA, it is at best an insensitive request from the Muslim Community; at worst it is a further Act of War disguised as religious expression, the constitutionality of which ought to be seriously examined, as the USA and the world at large is likely engaged in protracted war against Muslim Jihadism.

steven| 8.8.10 @ 2:00PM

Aaron, at best you have no interest in following the tenets of the constitution.

You have the right to disagree with the decision, but you are wrong on every level (except "mr. 9/11", Guiliani). The Mosque should go up if they want it to. It doesn't matter if your feelings are hurt by this, that really means nothing.

Big Horse| 8.7.10 @ 2:37PM

Try building a Wal*Mart at ground zero and watch the left scream NO! in the name of "respect". Why don't they propose a shinto shrine at Pearl Harbor? Or a Disney park at Gettysburg? As with all things left, it has nothing to do with tolerance, respect, or freedom of religion. It's selective logic to fit the issue du jour, in this case taking the cue of government: don't connect the dots, just like Fort Hood had nothing to do with Islam.

steve| 8.8.10 @ 3:55PM

Big Horse, you have no idea what you are talking about.

As a matter of fact it's really the other way around, the right has no respect for freedom of religion, history, and as a matter of fact you are the one with selective logic because you talk about this stuff here without any proof.

Give me the proof here.

Andi American| 8.8.10 @ 10:48PM

We as Christian Americans must stand fast against this evil. As a free Christian society we must draw the line and eradicate America and if need be the world of these devils. Americans need to wake up and realize who these people are. Close down all Mosques in America and send these people back to the barbaric uncivilized waste lands they came from. Wake Up America! This is the devil know him by name Allah the wife beating child molester devil must be banished. There is a big difference between religious tolerent and letting the devil in to your house.

steven| 8.8.10 @ 11:32PM

Andi...your the first person here who actually said what they really wanted to do. I commend you on your honesty and your directness.

But you know Andi , that if that happens we will no longer be a democratic country, but actually closer to Nazi germany. Remember what happened there? Hitler started out demanding that Jews and other "mongrels" be kicked out of the country. With that not happening, he moved to the next step, mass murder of Jews, Nazis, gays, etc.

Now you say we are a Christian Nation. I'm Jewish. What will be done with me since I am not a Christian? May I inquire that being a Christian nation that in a sense, you have done me a favor by allowing me to live here? And also if in the future, a jewish person commits a terrorist act against the United States (it's happen before) will some in your religion decide that jews shouldn't be allowed in the United States?

So Andi, as a Jewish person, do you think I should support exactly what Hitler did?

steven| 8.9.10 @ 12:36PM

Andi...still waiting for your response..

steven| 8.9.10 @ 6:34PM

Andi? Where's your response?

Joe| 8.9.10 @ 12:26AM

If the mosque goes up I can only imagine the line of US pilots ready to fly into it.

Titus Pullo| 8.9.10 @ 4:37AM

Steven, Jews and Christians share a common heritage (Jesus was born a Jew,duh!). Regardless, this is a political move that will not improve Islamic relations as it claims as, it has already proven toxic to the American public (including the American Muslim community). Muslims have every right to practice their religion in NYC but, the placement of any structure in NYC is very strictly controlled and politics and public opinion absolutely hold sway and this is no different. If this was Larry Flint's Hustler House of Naked chicks I promise you would find those same people supporting the Mosque in a state of squealing-spit-worthy opposition...If you are in fact Jewish I would think you would at least have a basic understanding of your peoples history and the oppressive times they have endured in the name of religious or political persecution throughout History.

steven| 8.9.10 @ 12:45PM

Oh, and further response Titus, you seem to forget about the Christian oppression of the Muslims called the Crusades. Both Muslims AND Jews were killed by them, weren't they? But it seems that were Muslims might have not forgiven you guys, we Jews seem to be a bit more forgiven.

And during world war 2 there is a huge debate about whether the church contributed toward the destruction of the jewish people by such things as the catholic church looking the other way while the nazi race got stronger and the abuses became worse. Remember, there were many boats of Jews trying to escape and when they went to America they were turned back. Where were the religious people then?

So when you talk about oppression, we too have had our share of it at the hands of Christians, Muslims, etc.

But you do need us. After all, when the rapture occurs, if we're not around, who would be there to defend you while you ascend to heaven?

Titus Pullo| 8.9.10 @ 5:02AM

Steven, I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. But, I am as far from pure as one can get and you know what, I like that about me...My point is, I have studied History and all of this Obama anti-Israel shit is very troubling. This is the most dictatorial president this nation has been forced to live with. If you are indeed Jewish understand, history repeats itself. And, troubling as it may seem that Obama has neglected/damaged our ALLIES it is far worse when you consider he is simply making "Wiggle Room" for Iran and SYra which he openly embraces...

steven| 8.9.10 @ 11:07AM

Thanks for your response, but please don't try to school me on basic understanding of my people, since I tend to be pretty knowledgable on my people's tradition, history and tenets.
Andi American's statements smack of a repeat of a history during the 30s and 40s that most people don't want to ever go back to.

I don't agree with you, he is not openly empracing Iran and Syria. What would you like him to do with Iran? Are you looking for a physical battle with them?

Actually Titus, you are also wrong about Obama acting like a dictator. This is a statement I hear from way to many people, but yet the responses tend to be paranoia ("don't worry, he's going to do SOMETHING to prove it") based on heresay and rumours and right wing "leaders" implying it without showing proof. Do you think he's doing anything more or less then Bush? How many examples can I give you of previous administrations (both repub and dem acting similar)?

So I respect your opinions about Obama, and the Mosque but what I see way too much here are people making excuses for bigotry and hatred, using examples that are wrong or misleading. Andi American is an extreme but not surprising.

I was also a student of history and what the united states is doing is repeating endless cycles of history that started way before Obama. But if you are only blaming Obama, you completely ignore all the others that have contributed to this mess.

Titus Pullo| 8.9.10 @ 5:24AM

Wow, good to see New Paltz!!! I am A New Paltz native-newyorker...moved to the Bay Area last year...still love the East Coast! I really miss warm water Ocean and Long Island, Jersey, Rhode Island Beaches...The East Coast summer beaches are pretty FREAKIN' AMAZIN'

steven| 8.9.10 @ 12:34PM

The Long Island beaches beat the heck out of the Rhode Island beaches anytime...they might be better then Cali's also.

Dave Minnich| 8.9.10 @ 11:27AM

The Ruling Class is also missing an important point - Islam is at LEAST as much a political system as it is a religion. The building of the mosque is an international political statement for Islam against America.

Stourley Kracklite| 8.9.10 @ 12:53PM

"The Ruling Class": sounds like something a Marxist windbag would pull out of his bag of tropes.

Thank God we live in a country with the courage to stand by its principles and not bow to paranoiac Lilliputians:

http://www.salon.com/news/poli.....e_pentagon

Here, all are welcome. Not just those who "look like" the Founding Fathers.

steven| 8.9.10 @ 12:35PM

Dave, can you be more specific? Why don't you just come out and say who is the ruling class? Is it Obama, Boehner, McCain, Reid, Murdoch, Turner, etc...

Serge from Wellington| 8.9.10 @ 9:14PM

"Gillian| 8.6.10 @ 12:15AM

Um, in case you missed the memo, Allah is the god of Abraham and David."

Who says that, Rev. Jeremiah Wright?

Serge from Wellington| 8.9.10 @ 9:25PM

Steven,

if you devoted several minutes to reading the article which is being discussed here, you would no doubt have noticed that the phrase "Ruling Class" is a quote - from another text in the current issue of TAS.

So, before going after your propagandist work, try - if you attention span allows - to get acquainted with the subject: America's Ruling Class – and The Perils of Revolution by Angelo M. Codevilla.

steven| 8.10.10 @ 1:37AM

here is some of your sides propaganda
"Islamo-supremacists of Cordoba House (and their Leftist-fascist allies) can howl about their alleged “right” to desecrate Ground Zero. "
"So lefties have finally found a religion they want to promote and wouldn't you know it, it's the most barbaric backward one on the face of the planet."
"Grow up. Islam is here. They want to colonise us."
" the intentional dilution of Christianity in this country,"
"THERE IS NOT SUCH A THING AS AN AMERICAN MUSLIM! MUSLIM ARE ONLY LOYAL TO THEIR IMAM AND TO ISLAM! "

So Serge, I know you aren't stupid but I do know that you are deliberately ignoring one side. You see I know there are terrorists, and I do know that most of the muslim world has terrorists in their midst. The difference between those countries and here is that we are (maybe were) more tolerant then most.

Serge, you are more talking point then anything else.

Serge| 8.10.10 @ 1:30AM

Haha, good one Serge! Ya got me dude, you are smarter then me. I guess I should stop writing now! But Serge, do you mind if I continue? I'll try to live up to your standard.

Propagandist work - actually Serge, you and those who agree with you are the ones perpetrating propagandist work, you all seem to want to find reasons for the Mosque not to be built. I look at your side and see bigotry, hatred and prejudice, all of which is being projected out by you people. You just want to find an excuse why the Mosque shouldn't be built, nothing else. I'm not the one putting all Muslims in the same category, but the ones here sure do. Propaganda? Let's see someof the things I see here

So Serge..it will be difficult to continue writing, unless its to respond to people like Andi who say things like "Close down all Mosques in America and send these people back to the barbaric uncivilized waste lands they came from"

I'll ask my grandfather and see where's he's heard that before.

Silverrocket| 8.11.10 @ 12:27PM

Let see...Freedom of religion? Gone. Perhaps we should remove the Mosques that existed near ground zero that pre-date the WTC? That would really send those billion dirty bastards a message! Oh, and now we use Saudi Arabia as our standard of religious freedom? Way to keep our standard HIGH. Muslims are just as much Americans as are any other religion. Remember, the WTC attackers were extremists, and were NOT Americans. Beside, there is much evidence that American Mosques actually REDUCE extremism, not increase it. Pushing Muslims into the extremities will create more extremists. I hope they build the mosque.

Costa| 8.18.10 @ 9:11PM

Oh my, I just read this whole thread. I noticed With each post, the emotion of the subject heightens. Overtones of freedom and acceptance seem to resonate w/ about 30% of posts while the other 70% resonate more with American emotion and defense of perceived social injustices. All opinions aside - if that mosque were to be built, it would simply be dangerous. You can tell by the argument on this thread that people (Muslim, Cristian, Atheist, Jew, gay, eunuch, whatever ...) won't back down. That mosque would be prime target for the emotional percentile and dangerous for the "who gives a shit" crowd. It could quite easily lead to another explosion. Everyone looses ... the action of building a mosque would separate unity further. Build something everyone can use, like a coffee shop or ..... a pharmacy(kidding.) If the Japanese wanted to build a Shinto Buddhist temple at the Pearl Harbor attack site this would also be a bad idea. Not because of anything emotional or opinionated ... it's - just - not - a good - idea - because - it's not safe. Maybe someday complete acceptance will prevail ... but until then, don't try and force it - that tactic goes in reverse.

Costa| 8.18.10 @ 9:20PM

My prior post posted at 9:11PM ... interesting ~

Elaine | 9.12.10 @ 4:01AM

Why are the Muslims so intent on building where the World Trade Centers used to be?
Salt on an open wound. That is all to be said.
That Shall not be built.

Roger Whiting| 9.17.10 @ 6:36AM

Civil discussion about the building of the mosque would be preferable. I think it would be a good gesture on the part of the builders to reconsider, but the constitution absolutely protects their right to worship, so therefore the choice is ultimately theirs.

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