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Car Guy
Electric Sticker Shock
Obama Motors’ $41,000 fiasco.
(Page 3 of 3)
Genius!
This has been tried before, too — back in the '90s — when GM leased the EV1 for about the same coin. It didn’t work out so good then, either — despite a booming economy and 3-4 percent unemployment.
That’s what makes this whole thing such a pisser.
By what bizarro logic does GM think the same basic concept — a luxury-priced electric car — will appeal to other than a relative handful of affluent buyers eager to flaunt how “green” they are? And if only a handful of such people buy this green lemon, how does that save fuel, or the planet?
It’s the Porsche model turned upside down.
Affluent buyers esteem Porsches and are willing to pay exotic money for them because a Porsche delivers exotic high-performance acceleration and handling. But the Volt just delivers an exotic price tag in return for high fuel-efficiency to buyers who by definition are in a position to not have to worry much about the cost of fuel.
Porsche also doesn’t need federal subsidies to move its inventory. GM does. To the tune of $7,500 in tax breaks per car. (Bankrupt state governments are also offering their own “incentives,” though how they’ll pay for them no one seems to know.)
GM says it expects to sell (that is, rent) 10,000 Volt the first year out. There may be just about that many eggheads in Hollywood and D.C. to fill that quota, too.
Your tax dollars at work.
About the Author
Eric Peters is an automotive columnist and author of Automotive Atrocities: The Cars You Love to Hate (Motor Books International) and a new book, Road Hogs.
Letter to the Editor View all comments (107) | Leave a comment
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Darin| 8.5.10 @ 7:08AM
And to make it even better, it gets 40 miles per charge. Unless you're going to plug it in a work, that's 20 miles each way (less if you factor in traffic and idle time at lights). Plus the added bonus of your electric bill. How much does it cost each time you charge the car? What will this add to your monthly bill? And for the green nuts, where do you think electricity comes from?
$40K for a golf cart is nuts. I'm sure a handful will sell because some people really are that stupid. Chevy Volt? More like the Chevy Dolt.
Charles Martel| 8.5.10 @ 11:37AM
If you plug in a personal car at work, is the value of the electricity consumed taxable as income? If not, why not?
Where does electricity come from? From those coal plants that Obama pledged to bankrupt.
+++
tdiinva| 8.5.10 @ 1:32PM
I am not a big fan of the volt as a Chevy. It should have been gussied up and sold as either a Buick or a Cadilac but every time I see some talk about the 40 mile range for the Volt without mentioning it's gasoline range extender I ticks me off. It's easy to make fun something you don't understand. The Volt power plant concept is really the same as the classic diesel electric submarine. Since the introduction of the Fleetboat in the 1930s all US diesel subs operated via an electric moter either driven by the batteries or the diesel engine. The last class of US built diesel subs took it one step further and ran only off the battery while using the diesel entirely as a battery charger.
The only issue I have with the Volt is the taxpayer subsidy given to the rich greenies who are going to buy it. The Volt uses better technology for an electric drive then anybody else. Unlike the Leaf and other all electrics you can operate the Volt like a tradional car and not worry about being stranded. I wouldn't pay 40K or even 33k after rebate because it's not cost effective. The Volt technology will get better and while it may not be used in its pressent form I can very high mileage electric-diesel hybrids that have first class performance coming on line in the next decade.
FTM| 8.6.10 @ 12:31AM
Completely wrong answer.
Your comparison between the car and the submarine are correct to a minor extent. The charging time for the submarine running it's diesel engine either surfaced or submerged at snorkel depth means that you'll be running the submarine for about twelve hours on battery after a twenty-four plus hour charge time. Basically that's why the old diesel electric boats used to go to sea with their ballast tanks full of diesel fuel.
By comparison you'll be running this POS back and forth to work with what, the tires full of gasoline? Maybe you could set a couple of posts across the end of your driveway with a big rubber band between them and sling-shot yourself to worl a-la Whiley Coyote.
The hybrid car was a huge mistake back in the late '90s when the original studies were performed by none other than GM. Toyota got in on the deal based on the practical observation that enviro-mentalists were stupid enough to buy a car like the Prius. Stupid people have money and Toyota wants it.
Then again what more would one expect from a south side of Chicago, welfare class rabble rouser that has never had a private sector job in his life.
tdiinva| 8.6.10 @ 9:18AM
I don't normally engage in ad hominem but in your case I will make an exception. You are an idiot. The comparison is exact. Here is how a submarine's diesel electric powerplant operates. The screws are turned by an electric motor. When the sub is on the surface charging its batteries usually one engine charges the battery while the other engine runs a generator that powers the electric motors. When charging is complete both engines can run the generator that powers the electric motors. When the submarine submerges then the batteries run the electric motor. This is true for all US classes from the first fleet boats until the Barbel (SS-580) class where the battery always runs the electric motor and the diesel engines feed the battery.
Here is how the Volt operates: For approximately 40 miles the battery runs the electric motor and no internal fuel is used. When the battery runs out of power the gasoline engine kicks in and runs a generator that powers the electric motor. Although it doesn't charge the battery operations is just like a diesel boat.
I am not a big fan of the Volt as I have said but at least I give GM credit for the use of technology. If I were the designer I would have used a small diesel engine like the one in SMART CDI or the VW Polo CDI that are sold in Europe and given that this technology is going cost a lot I would have not built it as Chevy. It would be best done fitted out in Cadillac style sort of like the Tesla Roadster. If the Volt were the combination of luxury and high tech no subsidy would be needed to sell the first very costly models. Instead GM put an expense drive train in an econobox that makes no economic sense.
FTM| 8.6.10 @ 5:48PM
You know, I used to ride around in submarines for a living so I kinda sorta know what I'm talking about here. The comparison that I think that we're not communicating too awfully well is the amount of time that you can operate off of battrery versus the time that you have to spend charging the battery.
With the car and the submarine, in both cases if you're actually in operation then you're spending your motive force in motion, most of it anyway, and the rest you're expending in charging the battery. If you have the luxury of being able to sit still then you can charge the battery, car or submarine.
In the case of the class of submarine where the engine charged the battery and electric motors propelled the sub, you had the option of using the power from the engine to directly drive the motor or charge the battery or both. Same case with the modern 640 and 680 boats. Believe it or not, modern submarines still have a diesel engine in the case that the reactor is having problems.
So, car or submarine, one way or the other you are going to expend a certian volume of fuel to charge the battery. In the case of the car you may be able to plug the car into the house to charge the battery but I bet you don't do that twice when you get the bill unless your house is wired for 480VAC. So (trying desperately to maintain my cool here) when you park thos POS your little engine is just going to keep chugging along generating electricity to charge the battery and burning fuel. TANSTAAFL, There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, the second law of thermodynamics will out, Force always and forever being equal to mass time acceleration. If you want to go from point A to point B in any vehicle and your vehicle weighs so much you will expend a certain amount of force in horsepower to do it wether you decide to turn the wheel directly with your engine or use some pipe-dream battery system first. Second law of thermdynamics, if you charge a battery, most of the power that you generate will be lost, waste heat, e. g. line loss.
I hope that you're not getting lost in all the big people talk here.
With the added complexity of the drive system introducing a charging system, battery and DC motors, actually in the long run you're going to spend more money in terms of fuel to propell and power to manufacture the hybrid POS. You can go down the road cheaper driving a conventional car. That was the answer produced by GM in the late '90s when the idea of a hybrid car first came up. Take a read below, Toyota being a more practical company that GM is acknowledged the fact that uneducated tree huggers are more interested in feeling good and showing each other how much they care and will buy a Prius, the cost of operation and purchase be damned. In short, stupid people have money and Toyota wants it.
Dumbass.
John| 8.8.10 @ 11:20PM
modern diesel electric submarines do not clutch their main engines to the shaft, only to a generator. This allows the engines to always run at optimal rpm, be placed in the best place (quieter) and not be connected to the propeller (quieter). But subs still have tiny trolling/emergency engines they can clutch to the shaft. LAS's sometimes play with their diesel during training to see if the surface guys studied/are paying attention.
The prius doesn't idle at stoplights to the best of my knowledge, and can power your fridge/house if the power goes out. And should come with warning stickers on the back, 60 to zero in 12 feet.
FTM| 8.6.10 @ 2:27AM
Now...
If you want to build a high efficiency car the hybrid drive train is the wrong way to go about it. What you want to do is to use a small gas turbine engine to turn a generator. Use the power derived from the generator to turn four or perhaps two direct drive DC motors, one for each driven tire. You'll need a computer to control the analog input from the accelerator pedal to manipulate a voltage regulator to control the amount of power being delivered to each driven wheel. Use an eddy current braking system and a capacitor bank to deliver a little extra break-away torque for use at stop signs or the like. Regeniterave breaking.
You could run your gas turbine engine off of gasoline or you could do somethig creative and run the engine off of Dimethyl Ether. DME is the propellant most commonly used as a propellant in aerosol spray cans. The Japanese have come up with a process whereby DME can be produced using Carbon Dioxide waste gas from power plants.
The technology to produce such a car is on the shelf, you don't need any batteries that are made of unobtanium or any other some such as of yet completely non-existant tecchnology to make it all work. Prius owners are overjoyed to find out that the need a $4500 battery with a $1500 to $1700 disposal fee at between 60K and 80K miles.
Basically what you need to do is to tell the tree huggers that this is the car that you can buy. That or you can walk. When better technology is developed you get a better car.
FTM| 8.6.10 @ 3:21AM
Sorry, I neglected to mention that the gas turbine engine and the generator spin at a constant velocity thereby eliminating inefficiency inherent in an Otto cycle engine in decelerating, the engine idles down from a high RPM wasting fuel and accelerating, revving up to higher RPM from a low RPM and wasting fuel. I'd think that you could send a HumVee sized vehicle down the road at highway efficiencies of forty to fifty miles per gallon, maybe even better than that.
Adam McCoy| 8.6.10 @ 1:25AM
20 miles each way BEFORE using any gas. Not 40 miles then stops. Idle time at lights is figured in. Unlike a gasoline engine electric takes essentially no power at "idle" because it doesn't idle.
Personally, I am waiting on that 100K tax break on the Tesla...Now that is an electric car I would drive.
I wanted an EV1 back when they came out, but I wanted to BUY one and there was no buy option. It wasn't to save money on gas, it was to OWN the FIRST production electric vehicle (and park it next to my '68 mustang with the 302 V8).
The one bit of info on the Volt that I haven't heard is are they selling it overseas? Seems like it would do fairly well in europe. The differential between gasoline cost and electric rates is much steeper...of course teh competition usually gets better mileage too...
Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 8.5.10 @ 7:17AM
What you need to understand here is that products like the Chevy Volt are not produced to satisfy the desires of the consumer, they are produced to satisfy environmental ideologues.
That is why the cost per unit is $81,000 and the taxpayers are financing this bloated largess. Add on a $7,500 tax credit per vehicle sold and the Bush Tax cuts look all the more reasonable.
What this indicates is that just like Cash for Clunkers, it would have been cheaper for the government to simply purchase the vehicles and give them away. In effect that's precisely what's occurring to a great degree.
Without federal central economic planning this vehicle could not have been created and sold.
The next time you see Turbo Tax Timmy whining on the national stage about tax cuts for the wealthy, keep in mind he doesn't have any problem with tax relief, subsidies and credits for billionaire corporations.
John W.| 8.5.10 @ 8:57AM
Don't forget it leases for $350 a month - $250 per month *less* than a $41,000 Cadillac.
Howard| 8.5.10 @ 7:24AM
The Volt had a purpose pre and post Government Motors. Pre-takeover, it was designed to show GM was "leading edge" technology. This would perhaps shine up the rest of their crappy line-up. It was a loss leader to get people in the showrooms. Post- Takeover, it fills a liberal, tree-hugger need for Earth friendly products. The feds will need to throw huge subsidies to move the vehicle; since it cannot compete on its own merits. It will be easy to sell the first 10,000 units, the next units will be very difficult to move.
Richard Baker| 8.5.10 @ 7:34AM
I'm a Ford Salesman here in Florida and am also wondering what GM is smoking. $41K for a golf cart? Darin is correct, of course, on that. Am still wondering, other than phony PR, what's the point? Not likely that we'll see the Kenyan driving one of these anytime soon.
Al Adab| 8.5.10 @ 11:43AM
How many new generating plants do we need to build to recharge all those batteries every night? EPA will never allow it.
Of course we will have no choice since the Fed will just mandate that we buy an electric car to go along with our mandated health insurance. What else might they decide we MUST buy?
Keep selling those Fords. Bought the stock a couple years ago at a buck. Very sweet.
DatsunMark| 8.5.10 @ 3:21PM
Richard,
I have an answer for you as to whom this car will be marketed... State and Local governments. The next time your Building Inspector comes out to deny your Certificate of Occupancy, he will be driving a $41K golf cart furnished by my grandchildren future earnings. Also, this is *payback* the States will have to do to get bailout money.
Jim O'Brien| 8.5.10 @ 7:41AM
Free enterprise is the mother of invention, progress, higher quality, lower prices, and freedom. If the government had run medical care for the past 100 years, 90% of the excellent care we enjoy would not exist. If the government had run the internet, it would still be unavailable to the general public. If the government had run the post office, well, you get the picture.
inspectorudy| 8.5.10 @ 6:59PM
You are so right. In fact there is a provision in the Obamacare bill that says that a medical committee will decide the best "Proceedure" for doctors to use. And if they don't use thaqt proceedure they will lose some of the payment they were due. Does sound like there will be any innovation from doctors? Never again. There will be no new proceedures for anything since it means taking a pay cut to try it out.
JB1000| 8.6.10 @ 10:00PM
I suspect there will be innovation. It will only be allowed under the Teddy Kennedy Health Care plan. You know, the one where he gets six consulting doctors, experimental surgery that does not save his life and we get the bill. I think we are headed for a two tier medical industry, only inexpensive treatment for the majority and anything goes for the "Important People"!
Jim O'Brien| 8.5.10 @ 7:44AM
I forgot Amtrak - the government has done such a great job that Amtrak hasn't made a dime in decades of existence. It just sucks up our tax money.
Nancy in NC| 8.5.10 @ 2:32PM
And who exactly rides the train??
The nearest train station to me is about two hours away. News flash...this ain't Europe. The train generally will not take me where I need to go.
Who's brain dead idea was Amtrak anyway? If there was truly a need and a profit involved, the private sector would have thought of it. Instead the rest of us pay for something that the majority of us will never use. And, that my friends, is what's wrong with this Country.
The same thing is true with this stupid car, the Dolt, as one reader so aptly put it. It's not practical for those of us living in small towns and rural America. My Dolt would always be on the charger, or I would be using gas. For 41K I prefer the Mercedes.
The co-op where I puchase my electricity comes from a coal burning plant. Just can't seem to understand how burning coal is all that much better than burning gas, and it will probably not be cheap.
In Japan years ago, we owned a little car that ran on propane. That was really economical. If the government would get out of the way, some smart American would come up with a good idea...just like Henry Ford did. By the way, does anyone here really think that Henry Ford would have suceeded if he had been working under our present government? We would still be driving a mule.
JohnD| 8.5.10 @ 7:47AM
This car has the style and comfort of an $8,000 car, and costs $41,000. When they develop an electric Cadillac Fleetwood that goes 500 miles on one charge and costs $5,000, call me. Until then. . . NO SALE!
ray bob| 8.5.10 @ 7:47AM
so the question raises again, what is the typical cost of electricity to charge Volt-aire, plus does this car plug into a typical 10 to 20 amp circuit in the garage (assuming you have one)....
Frank Tekstar| 8.5.10 @ 7:56AM
This is why I just (day before yesterday) bought a FORD. Traded in my 2003 Mercury Marauder for a 2011 Mustang. 6 cyl, 300 HP, 31 MPG highway, 20 MPG city. Screw GM. They're sleeping with the enemy.
trbayth| 8.5.10 @ 8:47AM
Nice Frank! Have fun with that Mustang (don't wrap it around a tree, kay?)
Ned| 8.5.10 @ 10:52AM
"Sleeping with the enemy?" GM has become the enemy... say, tell me again how they chose which dealerships to close... oh, just the ones that gave campaign contributions to Republicans? And who did the choosing again? Government Motors, indeed.
Frank Tekstar| 8.5.10 @ 7:59AM
BTW: The Mustang, a convertible all tricked out with goodies only cost about $35K and I'll get to keep it long after payoff.
gypsy| 8.5.10 @ 8:01AM
Ah yes, the "Volt" : a car that only a tree-hugging eco freak would want and only an overpaid government bureaucrat can afford. Thank you, but no: my humble Hyundai gets roughly 35, and my wife's Toyota Corolla gets just shy of 40mpg. And you can buy BOTH our cars brand new for less than the Volt.
Only from the minds at "Government Motors"
inspectorudy| 8.5.10 @ 7:06PM
No one seems to be mentioning the dreaded battery replacement issue. I believe GM is touting 8 years for the OEM set of batteries but I doubt that but lets figure on 8 years. When the car is seven years old and you want to sell it or trade it and they know that it will need a new set of batteries, what do you think it will be worth? I believe a new set will about $5000. These things are new cars only. Unless GM comes up with a plan like the original VW which was to replace everyone's engine every year a flat fee then no one will want a used Volt.
Bob Miller| 8.5.10 @ 8:54AM
The government can now buy these (on our tab, natch) to move all their new personnel (czars, czarinas, assistant underczars...) around.
Old Soldier| 8.5.10 @ 9:10AM
Exactly what I was thinking - Government Motors will sell thousands of these things to the GOVERNMENT. Why be frugal with tax payer money?
Lullabys, Legends and Lies| 8.5.10 @ 9:37AM
Maybe the Highway Patrol will start driving these Dolts, and then when we decide to get into a high speed chase with them, it'll only last 50 miles or so before they have to pull over and wait for a tow truck to recharge them. Imagine OJ being followed by these clunkers on that infamous night? There would've been Cop cars all over the place!!
sre| 8.5.10 @ 8:57AM
Oh, they'll "sell" lots of Volts. Watch the parking lots at federal agencies in the next couple of years.
Denver Todd| 8.5.10 @ 9:04AM
Due to the complexity of the Volt, just like with all high tech products, the value of this car after the warranty runs out is zero. This may be a hard concept to understand, but the cost of ownership rises dramatically if a person has to pay for repairs himself, and repairs on the Volt would be cost prohibitive.
Pecos Pete| 8.5.10 @ 9:34AM
Batteries? Cost of replacement? Which country makes the batteries? Which country supplies the raw materials for the batteries?
Inquiring mind (minds?) want to know.
JP| 8.5.10 @ 9:58AM
1)South Korea
2)China
Dustoff| 8.5.10 @ 11:58AM
Didn't they find the stuff to make these batteries in Afgan?
See were not there for oil. It's for GM. (gov motors)
LOL
DatsunMark| 8.5.10 @ 3:30PM
!No Blood For Batteries!!! End the War Now!!
KPar| 8.5.10 @ 7:19PM
All the nickel comes from Sudbury, Ontario. It is then shipped to China where it can be smelted without interference from pesky bureaucrats like those at the EPA, and their annoying pollution regulations!
JP| 8.5.10 @ 9:35AM
Look for every department in the federal government to put in huge buy orders. Within 6 months we will see out soldier's riding off into battle in Chevy Volts (of course, the Taliban had better be within a 20 mile radius of American bases). This will be the first time in history where soldiers will demand they march into battle and not ride.
Lullabys, Legends and Lies| 8.5.10 @ 10:02AM
JP: Actually a 20 mile radius is about all you can really count on with the standard Humvee, because all the Humvee really does for a living is break down. In 2005 the 82nd drove all the way down to Louisiana, for Katrina (1,000 miles to New Orleans). The Convoys broke down at almost every exit, for the four days it took to get there (300 miles a day, top speed 35 -MPH), it would've been funny to watch, except that it was happening to me (it wasn't very funny!!). It was the longest, and most boring trip, EVER!! And then to top it off (or should I say, to make it worse?), the Humvee is quite possibly "the" most uncomfortable vehicle to drive in, the seats are a joke, the floor will cook your feet off within an hour, and it's loud as crap. But the main reason why the Volt won't work for the Military is, with all the armor they'd have to add to the Volt to make it even slightly safe to drive in Afghanistan, it would drain all the batteries in five minutes flat. Hell, it probably wouldn't even make it out of the FOB, where the convoy started, with all that extra weight. But I bet, that five minutes it did last, would be a lot more comfortable than the Humvee on its best day. Personally, I'd nominate the up-armored Lincoln Town Cars myself as a replacement, but then again, nobody's asking my opinion (and that's too bad, because it's got really great seats).
George S| 8.5.10 @ 9:41AM
Question 1: does the car have heating and air conditioning? In a gasoline burner the heat is a byproduct of combustion and the ac is tapped off the rotation of the engine. In the Volt the heat would have to come from electrical resistance -- how much of the battery does that drain? And the energy to power an ac compressor is not trivial. You can't short change he laws of thermodynamics.
Question 2: If gasoline becomes cheaper, that is, we drill more of our own oil, does the Volt become more or less enticing?
Question 3: But what if gasoline in no longer available....
Stan Redmond| 8.5.10 @ 10:05AM
The volt WILL be a wild success. And here's how.
Obama [pbuh] made one campaign promise he will keep and that is to put 1 MILLION electric vehicles in the federal fleet. The federal government can easily afford another 4.1 billion dollars to purchase these lemons. They won't be driven by any federal employees but they will be sold. As a matter of fact, the federal government will purchase one million Volts and GM won't have to produce any anyway. And the deal will fade quietly away and no one will remember come 2012. BUT GM will be able to announce record sales.
Nick| 8.6.10 @ 1:39AM
Mr. Redmond,
Since when does the federal government pay RETAIL for anything? Better tack on an additional $10 billion to "expedite" the process.
Edsel| 8.5.10 @ 10:16AM
100 years ago we had steamcars,electic cars, and gasoline powered cars. Some of the steamers were fabulous. I remember electric trolleys and delivery trucks. Gas and diesel won out. As there is plenty of petrol (really) and as it is now pretty clean burning, there is no reason for an electric car.
Stan REdmond| 8.5.10 @ 10:32AM
Follow up thoughts.
George S. is correct. Heating and cooling? A radio? Power windows? Power locks? It is doubtful. Knowing that government officials, now promoted to automotive designers, designed this car they don't care about how comfortable the vehicle is for the driver. They want to control the temperatures in our own homes why would they allow us to control the temperature in our automobiles? Windshield defrost with blowers and electric heaters??? Where I'm at in the dead of winter it takes 15 minutes to thaw the windshield. That's half the charge right there.
Commuting to your federal job in Dallas Texas in August? You better live 4 miles from work because, if by the generosity of our government overseers they allowed AC, 32 of the 40 miles (allegedly) would dissapear just to cool the thing.
Power steering to get in and out of your government building parking lot?
Or as I suspect, the gasoline engine is ALWAYS running to power the darn thing.
But hey, it will help some liberal ease their guilt and sleep better at night. And it's a bargain at twice the price, which is what it will end up costing us. 55 billion dollars for the GM union bailout and a car no one wants at $41,000 each, is that really so expensive. 10,000 Chevy volts might offset one of Al Gore's plane rides.
Ned| 8.5.10 @ 10:59AM
Stan - don't forget the decidedly deleterious effect cold has on battery life... if the Obama Motors Dolt gets 40 miles out of a charge in Tampa, you can bet it's going to get something closer to 4 miles per charge in Green Bay
Appleby| 8.5.10 @ 3:56PM
That is just what I (who live in Kanukistan) was wondering. Not to mention the fact that our idiot premier here in Ontario has vowed to shut down ALL the coal fired plants in the province by 2007. (Yes, you read that correctly. That is what he promised. Then it got freezing cold in the winter and boiling hot in the summer.) Not to mention that the vast majority of the people who would buy the Dolt live in downtown condo high-rise buildings where they can just barely manage air conditioning. Where are these things going to plug in?
glenny| 8.5.10 @ 3:22PM
Stan, I'm with you on that Dallas commute thing. I live in Baton Rouge. A couple of years ago (in July) I put a thermometer in my car and let it sit all morning with the windows up. At noon, the interior temp had reached 140 degrees. Is a battery powered car going to power the a/c hard enough to knock down that temp? NO ! glenny
Louis Jenkins| 8.5.10 @ 10:41AM
An electric car? Volt? Kind of like a human excretment in a punch bowl. I can see it now! The Federal employee drives the twenty or so miles and has to stop to charge it up. Now that's economy! Since when does a Fed drive that few miles? Yeah, the Federal parking lot may be full of these vehicles, but I'll stick to my truck, and when I want to get really good milage I'll hop in the VW Jetta and make the pukes jealous. Sickening.
Houston Rao| 8.5.10 @ 10:46AM
I find it ironic that Obama and the Dems, who have said that the rich need to pay more in taxes, are now giving away $7500 to them since they are the only ones who can afford this car and its inconveniences.
Add another executive mandate that x% of the federal fleet must be non-fossil fuel vehicles and there will be an assured market for these Dolts, all on the tax payer dollar.
Thomas| 8.5.10 @ 11:14AM
The Volt is just political window dressing from the CEO of Government Motors, Barack Obama. The only way it will sell, in significant numbers, is if the federal government buys them as a backdoor subsidy of GM.
It is an consumer lemon. It ONLY operates on pre-stored electrical energy. It ONLY has a range of 40 miles. It takes far longer to recharge the power source, the batteries, that it would to pump gasoline into a conventional vehicle. It will breakdown, as all vehicles do, and it will be very expensive to service. The batteries will have to be replaced eventually, a very expensive and time consuming process, and then there is the problem of battery disposal. You'll get charged for that as well, just like tires. There is simply no upside, other than eco-friendly bragging rights, to own one.
L. Ross| 8.5.10 @ 12:21PM
Thomas
You are flat out wrong in your first two claims. You are missing the entire point of the Volt. The car holds enough charge for 40 miles of driving. After that is exhausted, an on-board generator kicks in, giving you unlimited range by purchasing gasoline. For the rest of you who are wondering how much it costs to charge, a 40 mile charge should cost about $1.30.
JP| 8.5.10 @ 1:05PM
But the gas engine can only run on primium gasoline -which is about $3.00/gallon at current prices (or about $60 a fill-up). Most commuters travel more than 40 miles a day.In otherwords, there is no financial motive for anyonre to buy this POS . At $41,000 the ROI is 12 years.
Appleby| 8.5.10 @ 3:58PM
But it takes 12 hours to charge it, if you can find a place to plug it in. And we pay 80 cents a kwh during "peak use hours" which will be "any hours you charge your car."
Paul Nelson| 8.5.10 @ 5:52PM
It takes roughly a kilowatt of power to keep a car that is already rolling at 7o mph,rolling at 70 mph.If a kwh costs roughly $0.10, your cost to drive 70 miles would be roughly TEN CENTS. That assumes that you could get the power that is in the wires next to the road into your car. Unfortunately there is no cheap way to do that.
Ryan| 8.5.10 @ 11:15AM
The other problem here is that these cars tend to not save so much energy - the use of energy and toxic materials in production doesn't help the planet much.
Old Joe| 8.5.10 @ 11:27AM
Right now we have three vehicles, one of which being a 2004 Chevy Tahoe. I love the Tahoe for the space, durability, and boat towing capacity. I would buy another when this one is worn out except that I hate unions (grew up in a union household and watched them screw my dad while he was alive and screw my mother over death benefits) and I swore I would never by another vehicle made by GM or Chrysler after the bailout. It looks like there is a Titan or an Armada in my future.
Jeff| 8.5.10 @ 11:27AM
Found these number in an article about the Nissan Leaf, I assume the numbers for the Volt would be similar.
The car will cost $32,780, minus a federal tax credit of $7,500, and will be exempt from Washington state sales tax.
It will cost about $2,200 to buy a home charger, 50 percent of which is covered by a federal tax credit.
A 240-volt charger — that's the type of plug used by a clothes dryer — will fully charge the car in about eight hours. A regular 110-volt wall plug, the standard outlet size, will take 20 hours.
A fast-charging station will charge the battery in about 30 minutes. About 40 of them will be constructed in public places, starting this fall. The fast-charging stations cost about $35,000 to build, Perry said.
The car gets about 100 miles per charge. At current Seattle electric prices of 6 cents per kilowatt hour, it will cost about $1.50 for a full charge.
Al Adab| 8.5.10 @ 11:39AM
...and what will we use to generate the capacity to recharge all the cars every night? Coal, NO; nuclear, NO NO; Oil, NO; Hydro, NO, wind, hot air, natural gas, maybe. How many new plants will have to be built?
Oh well, none of those questions matter since the National Government will just pass a law mandating that we all own an electric car. Since they can tell us we must buy insurance, where will they stop?
Jeff| 8.5.10 @ 11:47AM
I thought they ran on smug?
Seriously though, it makes my skin crawl every time I hear some enviro-nitwit say "I have an electric because it is zero pollution.
rodman820| 8.5.10 @ 3:00PM
What you're forgetting, or deliberately omitting is that most of our power use is during the day, while businesses and industries are operating. Charging these cars at night will utilize idle capacity. This has the potential to actually LOWER overall electrical costs since the cost of contructing and maintaining the existing, plants and infrastructure will be spread accross greater usage. Also remember there are back up plants, built and kept at-the-ready to provide excess capacity when needed. These are rarely used, but needed to prevent brownouts during high demand periods.
There is plenty of capacity.
All of you are overlooking the fact that the electric moter is VASTLY more efficient in terms of overall energy consumption per mile travelled than the internal combustion engine. Cars run from electricity generated in a natural gas plant use a fraction of the energy the same care would use running on a CNG, internal combustion engine.
The Volt is far from perfect I imagine, but if everyone for whom it does work (financially and logistically) can use it, it and other vehicles like it will help lower our energy consumption and move us closer to energy independence.
I do recognize though that none of this matters. Your oposition is not about facts. It's about Obama, alone. It's personal, obligatory oposition, mandated by the loathing of the President with which you have been programmed.
That not withstanding, it's a strange sort of malice that would punish 100's of thousands of GM employees, suppliers and dependents by boycotting GM, just so you can uniformly oppose Obama.
By the way. GM is on track to pay off the Government loans 5 years early and if the company is reasonably successful in the coming months and years, we THE PEOPLE can expect a positive return on the investment made by the bailout.
But, if you'd prefer to pursue the obligatory opposition of all things Obama, including, by tangential association GM, then you are working against the recovery of GM and the best financial and economic interests of the people of this nation.
I guess that's not to high a price to pay for prosecuting you personal, political grudges?
It seems the GOP would consider their post Obama insurgency a success if in 2012 this nation is in social and economic shambles, provided they can blame Obama.
It also seems that a Patriot, an American, would prefer to see the nation survive and prosper, even if it means their political enemies score a few points by it.
But again, it's apparant that viewpoint is not shared by many, particularly in the GOP.
Thomas| 8.5.10 @ 11:51AM
Ah, the "tax credit" scam. With these tax credits, the average taxpayer gets to deduct that $7500 or $2200 from their taxible income. Now as most taxpayers pay less that 25% of their taxible income in actual federal income taxes, that means their actual savings is not $7500 but rather only about $1800. Rather a big difference, isn't it.
Mel Torme| 8.5.10 @ 1:57PM
I don't think so, Thomas. A tax "credit" is different from a tax "deduction". Your calculation is for the situation of a "deduction". I am not sure what this car scam is sold as, but I just know that if the word credit means what it usually does, it means you can subtract the $7500 directly off your tax bill for the year (whether that just lowers your payment on April 15th or raises your refund by that amount).
I'm no tax attorney, so don't give my name over to the IRS if they come after you about any tax problems you run into after purchasing this POS, I mean car. I won't be home anyway, or I may be using an alias, say, Harry Truman.
glenny| 8.5.10 @ 3:28PM
Mel, you're correct! A credit is a direct reduction of your tax liability. A deduction is a reduction of your taxable income items. glennyCPA
Dustoff| 8.5.10 @ 12:08PM
I'm with ya Jeff. I live in WA too and you just know these recharging station will cost "much" more.
tdiinva| 8.5.10 @ 1:38PM
I was waiting for someone to make an unfavorable comparison to the Leaf. You don't know what are talking about. Drive the Leaf 100 miles and even with the "fast" charger you will be waiting four hours to get going again. When the Volt runs out of charge its gasoline engine kicks in and you can drive cross country. Now tell me which concept would you rather have own?
RichTex| 8.5.10 @ 12:00PM
The Volt has a 40 mile range (optimally), but also carries a gasoline engine to generate electricity to recharge the batteries. As I understand, the engine would not power the car itself. So theoretically, the range is much greater than just the 40 miles the battery charge could take you. But, there’s a problem with that about which I’ve heard only fleeting references.
OK. Suppose you have a commute which is about 10 miles each way, giving you the ability to operate only on battery power every day by recharging it overnight. Sounds ideal, right? But then one day after you’ve had the car a year or so you have to take a much longer trip. You attempt to start up the engine to recharge your batteries after you’ve exhausted them, only to find that the gasoline you’ve been carrying around in your tank for a year has gone stale.
Now it is possible to store gasoline for extended periods of time under the right conditions. But those conditions (an airtight container away from extremes in temperatures) are unlikely to be met in an automobile. Instead, you’re faced with gums and varnishes wrecking havoc with your fuel injectors if you can get the engine started at all. I’ll bet when you bought the car, the dealer never told you that you needed to add a stabilizer to your gas tank.
dnha14| 8.5.10 @ 12:09PM
My Honda CRV gets OK mileage. Not great, but I can live with it. The sticker price began with a 2. Until every car in America has a sticker price that begins with 3, I'll stick with the ones that start with 1 or 2. Start with 4? Even if I had that kind of money, there are far better things to do with it than buy a car that starts with 4. Besides those fancy cars that start with 5 and 6 don't even come with turn signals. Or at least I've never seen them used.
Mel Torme| 8.5.10 @ 2:04PM
Hmmm, all my cars' prices start with all different numbers, from a 9 up through 30. The good news for me, is that those numbers are the hundreds. I could get 10 to 15 good used cars for the price of that milliVolt.
The politicians that pushed GM into this thing are mostly democrats, and, by definition then, rich elitest bastards. The difference between $41,000 and $4,100 for them is not noticeable. Instead of "let them eat cake" when there is not enough money for bread, they say "let them drive Audis" when there is not enough money for used Chrysler K-cars.
Dulou| 8.5.10 @ 12:43PM
I would ask everyone to get educated on the actual tech. Some get it, some don't. As stated below there is a gasoline engine to recharge the battery while driving when the 30-40 mile limit is hit. It has a 400 mile range. Sadly, they picked gasoline over diesel. Hydrogen could be used to recharge the battery. Until hydrogen goes main stream hybrids like this are the only answer.
Point 2: Batteries are more destructive to the enviroment than gasoline over the cradle to grave lifespan. Fight them on that point.
Point 3: Many followers of the Volt were shocked they didn't bling the car out and sell it at a profit as a Caddy or Buick. Leadership at GM choose to sell the car at a loss knowing they could sell it at a profit as a Buick/Caddy. Fight them on that.
Point 4: The Volt is the same size as a Focus, old Saturn SL, CR-X. $41k for a tiny car meant for DINKS, not families. Fight them on that.
Just helping everyone out. I followed the Volt tech sine 2007 and quit when the greenies and Obama bought GM out and then it was obivious the car was to be sold at a loss on purpose.
LarryR| 8.5.10 @ 12:53PM
What about the lost revenues to the federal and state governments from the taxes on gasoline collected at the pump that, in theory at least, pay for highway construction and maintenance, that won't be collected, at least not yet and until they figure out a way to do it?
KPar| 8.5.10 @ 6:11PM
Larry, I don't know why it took someone this long to make that very point- You are dead on the money! The following is an article I wrote for a car club newsletter "The Airhorn" where I covered that:
I have come to believe that many of the claims for “alternative fuel vehicles” are bogus, simply because the claimants leave out the “level playing field.”
I need to point out that the evil Big Oil Companies (that is, US companies) get a smaller profit on the fuels they produce than the various government agencies that get a cut of the price. A large percentage of the price we pay, per gallon, goes to federal, state, and local taxing bodies for “highway use,” which means that part of the price we pay for fuel is meant to pay for the roads we all use in our daily commerce- whether or not we drive, ourselves, we most certainly get the benefit of all the items we purchase and consume. Whether we eat or use these things, the various consumables all have to be delivered, and at least part of the trip occurs on ROADS.
I have watched many TV shows, on stations such as PBS (Channel 11-WTTW), the Discovery Channel (one of my personal favorites) and others, about the future of automobiles and, specifically, alternative fuels. In the comparisons between gasoline and alternative fuels I have seen on these shows, I have NEVER heard the subject of taxes come up. It appears that the producers of these shows want to make petroleum-based fuels look bad, and the alternatives (LNG, LPG, Ethanol, Hydrogen, used French fry oil, soy oil, sunflower seed oil- you name it) look wonderfully cheap!
None of the TV shows that I have watched recently have compared the ACTUAL costs of “alternative” fuels to the prices we pay today. OK, if you want to gas up with Hydrogen, or “biodiesel,” or ethanol at the pump, the gummint can tax you at the source (the pump). If, however, you choose to get an electric car, who is to say that the electricity you used is for your refrigerator, your lights, or your trip to work? And what if you go “off the grid” and produce your own electricity, via solar or wind?
I have a very personal interest in what is coming at us, not just as an old car enthusiast, but also as someone who cares about the future quality of life for our children and grandchildren. I believe that personal freedom means the ability to come and go as we please, without others (i.e., the government) following up on where we go and who we visit.
Why am I worried?
I am a conservative; ergo, I do not like taxes. That said, I acknowledge that taxes are necessary for construction and maintenance of BIG projects- projects that only governments can handle. You will not be pulling your own weight as a citizen if you use the roads, but don’t pay for their upkeep. How do we balance this out?
The state of Oregon (DON’T say Or-e-gon to a native- it is Oregn, and believe me, you’ll hear about it if you slip up!) recognized this problem a few years back and someone in the state legislature proposed his solution.
All vehicles registered in the state would have GPS (Global Positioning Satellite) receivers installed and the state would monitor how many miles each vehicle traveled within the state each year. Subsequently, the state would assess the highway use tax for each vehicle, and bill the user. How could that be fairer? Each user would only pay for what he (she) actually used, and no one would have access to anything but the grand totals.
Or would they?
In the interest of dispute resolution, ALL the GPS information would have to be retained in a database- otherwise, how could you fight the state if/when you were over billed? If a database is kept, the records can be subpoenaed. It has already happened here in Illinois (note to Oregonians- it is NOT pronounced Ill-i-noise!) when a non-custodial father got records of his ex-wife’s IPASS (tollway) account to prove she was spending too much time working, and not enough time with their kids!
Of course, government employees would NEVER look up the records of citizens out of idle curiosity- oops; maybe we should forget the stories of IRS people passing around tax returns for their jollies, or State Dept. employees casually checking out visa records of prominent (and, who’s to say, maybe non-prominent) citizens. And, this being Chicago, perhaps we shouldn’t think about the mob’s connections in the CPD. What was that detective’s name, again? Ah, William Hanhardt!
Now, don’t go away with the impression that I am against electric cars, or alternative fueled vehicles- I am not! Indeed, I see a time when electric autos will be the main form of personal transportation, both in the USA and the world. Much work needs to be done on the technology before that happens, but that work IS being done. Electricity will need to be cheaper than it is now for it to happen, but I believe that electricity WILL be cheaper.
My point is, perhaps we shouldn’t jump at all these exhortations to abandon fossil fuels, willy-nilly. We need to think about the changes we are calling for, and the likely repercussions of those changes. There are always unintended consequences (not to mention the fact that most of these “alternatives” are “not ready for prime time”) and I, for one, am not ready to leap headlong into the year 1984.
For those of you not familiar with that reference, look up George Orwell.
Pat| 8.5.10 @ 12:54PM
Ok, the Volt isn’t a great car, it costs too much, it’s too cramped for the price and it has that annoying, humming sound the GM mechanic never hears when you bring it to the dealer for service. What? Did you expect to see a fully armored version of the Volt carrying Obama and surrounded by Secret Service guys on rollerblades any time soon? We’re not retiring the President’s heavy, gas guzzling limo for a Volt, instead we’re thumbing our nose at our national dependency on oil. When there are hundreds of Volts on the road, we will have conquered our dependency on foreign oil, right? Well, not really, but we’ll feel good about ourselves for about 5 minutes or until GM announces the first recall, whichever comes first.
And think of the delicious bouts of sanctimony the environmentalists will enjoy when the Volt doesn’t catch on. We’ll be scolded for ignoring the Volt, even though our tax dollars completely subsidized its development. Rich environmentalists will point out they may as well keep their Bentleys and Cadillac Escalades since Americans simply refuse to embrace the virtues of alternate energy. Poor environmentalists will demand hefty tax credits and buyer incentives so they can afford one. Porsche drivers will laugh when they see the Volt’s electrical plug bumping along the highway because the owner forgot to stow it away after last night’s charge. Teenagers will snap up used Volts, immediately customize them with chrome spinners on its cute little wheels and municipalities will create specially designated parking spaces for the Volt right next to all those vacant handicap spots you see in your city’s public parking lot. How long before we see the first Volt racing in NASCAR?
L. Ross| 8.5.10 @ 1:16PM
While I can agree that it is difficult to make a strong economic case for these cars, to say they are useless is to entirely miss the point. The Volt will allow most drivers to do all their daily driving without burning gasoline in the tank. The 40 mile target was selected because that covers the vast majority of commuters. When you go out on a longer trip, the generator kicks in, and you can go any distance just by filling up at the gas station. Charging out of the wall costs about 1/3 as much as filling the tank for the same distance traveled. While I do agree that it is a lot of money that will never be recouped over the life of the car, it is a great idea. Hopefully, as the technology matures, costs will come down. To describe the entire project as a failure is like saying $25,000 flat panel TVs were stupid back in 2000. You got to start somewhere, people.
JP| 8.5.10 @ 4:24PM
Point 1: the Volt's gas engine can only run with the higher octaine premium gas. That is, right off the top, one must pay roughly 20-30 cents more per gallon. The cost to full the tank will be $60 at today's prices.
Point2: Most people drive far more than 40 miles per day. The average commuter also goes to the dentist, doctor, school, they do shopping, run other errands, etc... In this economy, it is not unusual for people to commute 80-100 miles per day minimum to stay employed.
And you seem to have a strange idea on how people look at expensive purchases -esp auto purchases. They could care less what the technology will deliver in 5 or 10 years. They do care very much about forking out $41,000 for a vehicle with untested technology that will cost them to operate than thier current vehicle. The economic point, is THE ONLY POINT. Consumers just don't have the money. And for those who do, they certainly will not buy this POS when they can for the same price purchase a BMW, a fully loaded Maxima or Buick.
That world has gone insane. What's next $15000 eco-friendly washing machines?
Robert| 8.5.10 @ 1:17PM
The Car Guy leaves an important statistic out of his Ford Fiesta comparison. If one were to buy a Fiesta and take a 5 year loan, they would own the car outright after that term thereby further reducing the cost of ownership and operation and leaving a residual value to the owner. If one were to buy a Volt outright, at some point (I'm not sure of the exact timing) the battery pack would have to be replaced at an extreme cost, increasing the operating cost while reducing the residual value of the car. No thanks.
M Btok| 8.5.10 @ 1:21PM
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Brian B| 8.5.10 @ 1:22PM
They're only making 10,000 of them.
The question isn't, will the middle class buy them, but will GM be able to find 10,000 guilt ridden sandal wearers with more money than brains to flaunt their rightousness even more ostentatiously than current Prius owners.
Dustoff| 8.5.10 @ 1:39PM
It's called Uncle Sam. He/she has more money than brains.
Dustoff| 8.5.10 @ 1:41PM
By the way, who besides the gov can buy zip when this keeps growing!!
++++++++++++++++++++
New claims for jobless benefits rise to 479K
New requests for unemployment insurance jump to 479K, highest level since April
PJ| 8.5.10 @ 1:41PM
The article did not mention that Chevrolet is proposing a 12K yearly mileage limit which means if it is driven more than 34 miles/day you will have further out-of-pocket expenses. What a joke.
Derek Leaberry| 8.5.10 @ 2:31PM
Instead of Volt, the car ought to be named Lib, as urban liberals will be the main purchasers of the car. Better yet, call it a Marx Car.
Bob Grant| 8.5.10 @ 2:45PM
The photo of Barry sitting in one of these Volts is reminiscent of Dukakis posing in a tank with that goofy helmet. This could be political gold for all sane conservatives when the numbers come in on the Volt. This car serves no purpose for the consumer other than to make a statement. An expensive statement at that. A purchase of one of these cars, as far as I'm concerned, is just a campaign contribution to the democratic party!
Joe D.| 8.5.10 @ 2:58PM
What about the cost of electricity? And will electricity go up with all these expensive cars out there. What about the cost of a new battery if you buy the car? What about the cost of maintenance, Will it be more or less than the normal car? How many miles per gallon before you have to find a place to plug it in?
These are just a few of my favorite questions.
Clinton nee Publius | 8.5.10 @ 3:22PM
This demonstrates the reason why the policy of not providing subsidies and leveling no tariffs and participating in no trade wars is such sound policy. When government is structured as an endogenous stakeholder in the economy and enters the economy for the purposes of subsidizing an industry or company, the outcome will always be exclusively negative in terms of the company's long-term competitiveness and ability to attract capital investment.
A total of $65 billion was invested to "save" 55,000 jobs - that's over a million dollars per job in an economy where the private-sector is creating jobs for about 1/17th of that cost. So this cost will have to be amortized over 17 YEARS in order to be efficient. Another way to look at this is to say that if the $65 billion had been left in the private-sector economy, it could have been used to create 17 times as many jobs as were saved at GM.
I fail to see the success of this policy. It doesn't work logically, it doesn't work mathematically and history tells us that as long as government interferes in this fashion, the outcome will be that GM dies.
dw| 8.5.10 @ 4:08PM
How long before we are mandated to by this car or cars like it?
wheredidwegowrong| 8.5.10 @ 4:40PM
I don't understand all the skeptics out there. Don't you people realize that we will get the power to run these things from the 'pixiedust' which will be abundant as soon as the stimulus money is given for the 'pixiedust' plants which will be built all over the country. Of course , once the pixies unionize the cost of the stuff will skyrocket. I guess a black market in pixie dust will emerge.
Pat| 8.5.10 @ 4:49PM
“No good deed ever retains its sanity” – someone should say that daily to every American. We invade Iraq to steal their oil according to the world’s media, but then we let Iraq keep the black gold and sell it to us for a profit after deposing Iraq’s murderous dictator at a huge expense to Americans. We resent being held hostage by the oil producing nations in the Middle East so we give the most money in foreign aid to the only country in the Middle East which doesn’t possess any oil. Back home, we give GM hundreds of millions in taxpayer funds to develop and build an expensive electric car they can lease or sell to customers for a handsome unit profit. We justify doing this so GM will earn the money to pay us back for all the taxpayer funds we spent bailing them out when they were going broke – and if, through some miracle, we break even on the bailout we’ll congratulate ourselves on our amazing business acumen.
We insist on building the Volt with UAW labor only but don’t require the union folks to buy or lease one. In fact, no one has to buy or lease one but, if nobody does, we will offer incentives at taxpayer expense so that they do. If you think this nonsense makes perfect sense, you have the legal right to freely express your opinion but not the legal obligation to immediately purchase a Volt if you don’t wish to.
If this course of action eventually comes to nothing, we will excuse ourselves for failure because it was the “right thing to do” even though it didn’t work and, in retrospect, will appear to be precisely the wrong thing to have done. If GM eventually cancels Volt production despite the subsidies and incentives to buy and because this government owned company isn’t selling enough of them or realizing a large enough profit, those who did buy them will howl in indignation, those who didn’t buy them will laugh and we’ll discover a new and even better good deed to be punished for. No wonder more and more Americans have the insane urge to shoot up their local McDonalds.
JimP| 8.5.10 @ 5:19PM
Great column, Eric. Loads of laughs along with our tax subsidy of the Volt dispepsia. Maybe they should call it the Re-Volt-ing.
Larry Brantingham | 8.5.10 @ 5:58PM
The Volt was never intended to be an economy car, nor is the Prius or even the Fiesta. If you really need to economize on transportation costs, buy a 100k mile Civic, drive it for 50-100k more miles and dump it when it dies. The savings in liability vs comprehensive insurance alone make more difference than fuel savings.
From the buyer's standpoint the Volt and other hybrids are really conscience cars, or smugmobiles, or politically correct conveyances. Cost isn't as big a factor when your real need is to publicly display your righteousness. From GM's standpoint, others have said, and I believe, that it is intended to display a PC image and at the same time help boost the CAFE numbers. GM isn't stupid - they know that people would rather buy Tahoes and SS Camaros, and they'd much rather sell these higher-margin cars. Unfortunately, the fleet average is constrained by CAFE. They have the further constraint that, as a sop to the UAW, small cars only count if they're built in the US where costs are higher thanks to those same unions.
Given all that, a reasonable tactic is to build a necessarily expensive image car that will be bought by early-adopters and the AGW loons and use it to offset more profitable cars that people actually want to buy. This, I think, is why all the hoopla over the Volt's original 200mpg rating was meaningless. No matter that a composite rating is ridiculous for a dual-mode car, all that really mattered is the CAFE accounting. I think it's a great plan – let the nitwits who pushed the rest of us into this pay for it.
As an electrical engineer for decades and a car nut for even longer, I think the Volt is a really good design for its intended purposes. The charging infrastructure limitations don't matter if you have a range extender, the battery pack, which like all good Li ion devices will die whether you use it or not, is small so the replacement cost is moderate. In any event, GM included the cost of one replacement pack in the cost of the car. By comparison, the pure electric Tesla roadster has a pack replacement cost of $36,000. You can cut this to $12,500 if you buy one up front, but it will be delivered only after seven years. Tesla's own numbers say the capacity is down to 70% at five years, so by seven years your $108k ($120k with extra pack) sports car might just be able to make down to the dealer to get the replacement. Even if the Volt is too old to economically replace the pack, it will still work as a car.
I doubt the Volt will succeed financially due to two reasons that weren't obvious when its development was begun years ago (no we didn't pay for much of the development cost – do you really think something like this is designed in a year?). One is that the AGW fervor has wound down considerably, and for good reason, and the other is that the EPA is re-rigging the mileage tests so that the CAFE advantage is reduced.
I won't buy one even though I like it as a design - I have no need for this type of car and I wouldn't stiff my neighbors for $7500, so the cost to me would be even higher. For that money, I can get a decent used Maserati.
jstwndring| 8.6.10 @ 6:50PM
Smugmobile--priceless. I like that. I would, if I had the money, purchase a smugmobile of my own. Although, my smugmobile would be a gas-guzzeling behemoth in the form of a twin-turbo v-12 5,000 lb monster known as the Mercedes AMG S65. And it would be pointed straight at the AGW crowd. Ah, dare to dream. Well, at least someone out there is mocking them with one! Make mine black.
Radioman777| 8.5.10 @ 6:31PM
It should be called the Chevy POS...
KPar| 8.5.10 @ 7:31PM
One thing that has apparently gone unnoticed is that there has been a "sea change" in Internal Combustion technology. The new "Direct Injection" gasoline motor has introduced a gigantic improvement in IC engine efficiency, seen in both MPG and HP.
This will set back the electrics back just as far as in 1900, when the superior performance of the early gasoline engines defeated the battery electrics.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
jstwndring| 8.6.10 @ 6:36PM
Yup. The only thing the Dims can do is take away our free market choices, which is exactly what this hostile take-over of the U.S. auto industry was all about. They are trying to force "green" energy down our throats because the free market has been saying for over 100 years, "Not interested".
Bob Grant| 8.5.10 @ 9:55PM
Another angle many people are under reporting. Do you realize the countries with the largest deposits of Lithium (the stuff of most batteries, including the one in the Volt) are largely unstable e.g. Bolivia, Chile, and, lets not leave out AFGHANISTAN. So Barry's dream of weening America off one energy source from countries that are "unstable" and "hostile" to an alternative energy source from an even smaller pool of countries that are "unstable" and "hostile". PURE-GENIUS.
Susie W.| 8.6.10 @ 1:49AM
Plus, what happens to the cost of this car if something along the lines of Tax & Cap passes and the price of electricity goes up 80+ %??? It's just another green myth.
Spyder| 8.6.10 @ 10:32AM
The price of gas will go up a proportionate amount. We are subsidizing the price of gas by giving the oil companies exemptions forom evironmental regulations such as installing working blowout preventers on wells and many more. We will enentuall have to pay to clean up all their messes.
Spyder| 8.6.10 @ 10:28AM
With a 40 mile range I could drive this car to and from work on one charge. I would seldom need the gas engine. In 5 years I would save $10,000 on fuel cost. Not to mention all the hidden costs from the environmental damage of producing and burning that fuel. In 10 years I have saved half teh price of the car.
LarryR| 8.6.10 @ 3:54PM
Did Spyder forget that most electricity is generated from fossil fuels with their attendant environmental cost? And that additional power plants would have to be built to generate the addditional electricity/ And that the electricity that would be consumed by electric cars needs to be transmitted from the point of origin to where it is used by transmission lines not yet built that chew up huge quantities of real estate and are fiercely opposed by environmentalists? And that the most nonpolluting source of electricity is that generated by nuclear power plants, also fiercely opposed by environmentalists?
wodiej| 8.6.10 @ 5:05PM
Spyder, I drive a low emissions Honda Civic. I drove 14 miles round trip to my last job. My Honda gets 24 mpg in the city. That means it only uses about 3 gallons of gas per week. That is 780 gallons of gas over a 5 year period at an avg. cost of $2.80 a gallon. That equals $2184. Most people do not drive Hummers which is what you must have used to come to a $10k savings. Electricity is fuel also fool. Was the complete car made from recycled material-seats? tires? radio-or does it come w a radio? That's probably extra. Probably doesn't have an AC-that would take up all the electricity. Another Dud from GM thug company.
jstwndring| 8.6.10 @ 6:27PM
Now, now. Take it easy. He probably went to an Ivy-League school. They are incapable of independent/critical thought after that level of indoctrination. Really puts 'em at a disadvantage. :)
jstwndring| 8.6.10 @ 6:20PM
What a frickin joke. Even this "green" car needs a traditional source of energy as backup in the form of, "a small onboard gasoline engine providing back-up juice to the battery pack". Sort of like the hybrids which are an admission that green energy isn't realistic, or, reliable. There is always gasoline somewhere in there proving that green energy is a failure in concept.
You know, if you scan the cable/satellite channels from time to time you may see a show titled, "Who killed the Electric Car?" I can't remember which channel, probably the GREEN channel, but, I always laugh when I see it on. I've never watched it simply because I know the answer: The free market, you idiots! They probably know the answer as well, and that's what ticks them off--to the point of putting out what is most likely a propaganda show to convince you of some sort of conspiracy to kill it. You southpaws are so predictable. The reason your ideas fail is because they all originate in politics, as opposed to practical reality.