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Emergent Church No Longer Emerging?

By on 5.27.10 @ 6:07AM

Postmodern Baby Boomer religiosity tends to run out of steam.

The “emergent church” is a loosely defined and even less organized force of postmodern evangelicals who emphasize community over Christian doctrine. Having mostly arisen a decade or more ago, and appealing primarily to twenty and thirtysomethings, emerging church types reject the traditional moralism of older conservative evangelicals.

In its place, they sometimes erect a new moralism built around environmentalism, diet, exercise, or social justice. They also react against the perceived liturgical sterility of Baby Boomer evangelicalism, with its shopping center style mega-churches, sometimes sacramental indifference, and hyper-Protestant rejection of traditional Christian symbolism and mysticism.

Rejecting much of “modernity,” emergents often emphasize ancient Christian symbols and practices involving candles, icons, a frequent Eucharist, Gregorian chants, and stained glass. They also shy away from culturally confrontational issues like abortion and homosexuality and stress community and dialogue over dogma. While still loosely evangelical and often emphasizing Trinitarians, emergents are inclined towards a “generous” orthodoxy that more straight-laced Christians discern as permissive if not heretical. Emergents are stereotypically associated with soul patches, body piercings, black clothing, and coffee houses. Though too young to remember Beatniks, or Jack Kerouac, they stylistically often aspire to be their more spiritual descendants.

Unsurprisingly, emergents are typically left-wing in their political voice, though they almost uniformly insist they are non-ideological. Former suburban Maryland pastor Brian McLaren, author of A Generous Orthodoxy, and leader of the “Emergent Village,” is a prominent emergent voice and close ally of Evangelical Left chieftain Jim Wallis. Wallis’s Sojourners magazine recently provocatively asked: “Is the Emerging Church for Whites Only?”

Sojourners’ writers critically noted that the public face of emergents is primarily young white males with “trendy clothing, sporting cool hairstyles and eyewear.” But one writer despaired that despite its ostensible coolness, the emerging “postmodern church was simply the pierced and tattooed offspring of its older, modern parents.”

Perhaps the emerging church has already fully emerged and will now submerge back into postmodern obscurity. Sojourners quotes a sarcastic “obituary” earlier this year for emergents that eulogized their “many advances in the Christian church, including facial hair, tattoos, fair trade coffee, candles, couches in sanctuaries, distortion pedals, Rated R movie discussions, clove cigarettes and cigars, beer, and use of Macs.”

Is, or was, the emerging church merely a passing fad primarily for bored yuppies smugly unhappy with their conventional suburban churches and pining for a spiritual theater more hip and supposedly more relevant? One Sojourners writer, quoting a blogger, credited emergents for their contributions to “women’s issues, conversations about sexuality, environmentalism, anti-foundationalism, [and] social justice.” But those “conversations” have been mainly only that. Not for nothing do emergents usually insist they are not a movement but a “community” or an ongoing “conversation.”

Brian McLaren himself, in his own short piece for Sojourners, readily agreed with the need to “shift away from white, Western, male hegemony and homogeneity.” He also wants to emphasize that while the “the postmodern conversation” occurs in the West, the global South is more interestingly having its “postcolonial conversation.” It’s not clear exactly what McLaren means by “postcolonial.” Now a frequent speaker to liberal Episcopal Church audiences, he almost certainly does not sympathize with global South Christians rebelling against liberal Western church sexual and theological trends.

More revealingly, McLaren noted that “theological conversations about the shape and purpose of the gospel, along with issues of justice — racial, environmental, and economic — are far more urgent and important than arguments about what goes on in church services, as valuable as church services are.” Himself a Baby Boomer guru for mostly much younger emergents, McLaren has become increasingly a Jim Wallis-type Social Gospel proponent who prefers activism to doctrine. Championing Palestinian liberation and Obamacare have been two of his most recent causes.

Far more biting is a subsequent Sojourners commentary from “urban-monastic” Shane Claiborne, a young author and lecturer popular among college age evangelicals who heads a Philadelphia, almost Quaker-like spiritual center called “The Simple Way.” He is an Anabaptist enthusiast who urges his listeners to reject the world through anti-materialism and aggressive pacifism.

Claiborne regretted that the emergent church became “narcissistic, and often became little more than theological masturbation: feels good but doesn’t give birth to much.” He surmised that overly loquacious emergents like to “talk about talking about theology” and have “repeated some of the mistakes of fundamentalism (only with more tattoos).” Claiborne aptly observed that emergentism seemingly “has no real life or DNA of its own,” but is primarily an endless circle of spiritual self reflection. He wonders why so much ink and talk is spilled on so wide an emptiness.

Possibly much of the emerging church phenomenon has been the hyped creation of Christian publishing, anxious to reach a younger audience. Or at least the publishers wanted to persuade older readers they could reach a younger audience by adopting emergent techniques. Old Sojourners activists almost certainly welcomed the liberal tendencies of most emergents even while frustrated by their continued adherence, however unconscious, to suburban evangelicalism.

Lacking its own firm DNA, the emerging church seems likely to collapse into what Jim Wallis and Sojourners almost certainly will welcome: heterodox religionists with a sense of liturgical style who define themselves more by their adherence to liberal social and political causes than by their doctrines. As perhaps hinted by Brian McLaren’s recent speaking engagements, aging emergents may simply end their spiritual journey as Episcopalians.

About the Author

Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Methodism and Politics in the Twentieth Century. You can follow him on Twitter @markdtooley.


Letter to the Editor View all comments (55) |

drudge ette obama| 5.27.10 @ 6:24AM

In a nutshell, this trend, if you want to call it that, is nothing more than people seeking psychological treatment for emotional fears. Religion isn't about that, really. That is why the religion-lite movement with its shy-away approach from controversial issues is losing its steam.
Faith is the greatest gift and it is the subject of ridicule by the boomers...

Alexander Clement| 5.27.10 @ 11:14AM

"...this trend...is nothing more than people seeking psychological treatment for emotional fears."

---Actually, that's what your traditional religion is: fearful people seeking refuge in the Big Sky Daddy. Much can be said against emergentism, but in fairness it did not start out as a "psychological treatment," that's not the aim of it.

The original aim was to have sustained conversations about important issues that usually can't be discussed openly and freely within the churches themselves; and to provide a place where genuine seekers could ask honest questions without being told to "sit down, shut up, believe what the pastor says or get out."

Evangelicalism has always had an authoritarian-theocratic streak, and the emergent conversation was trying to break free from that. But eventually it did derail into a lot of silliness about style and hipness.

Ryan| 5.27.10 @ 12:07PM

I can agree with you to a point, and I think it shows the value of the questions that the emergent movement asked (which, like I said, they came up with all the wrong answers).

The problem that we're also finding is that the genuine seekers weren't being led deep enough by the core emergent guys.

Big Leo| 5.28.10 @ 11:22AM

As a conservative pastor, now retired, let me assure you that the evangelical church is thoroughly democratic. Being a pastor of such a church isn't like being Mussolini-- it's like herding cats.

TexasJayde| 5.31.10 @ 11:24AM

"Big Sky Daddy"? what a demeaning way to speak of Almighty God the Father.

Kenny| 5.27.10 @ 6:50AM

'Aggressive pacifism' ..... what's that?

Maybe that's how the Left (Obama, the Clintons, etc.) are honest liars, that is, they're lying for the truth.

Bill| 5.27.10 @ 7:58AM

While most of the Episcopal church has lost its way there are still a few good pastors who declare the Word of God. There is nothing that will satisfy the soul and set one free as will the Word of God and the gift of faith. It and it alone will give purpose and meaning to life. It always baffles me why people run around seeking fulfillment in all the wrong directions and miss what is so obvious and in front of them daily. It seems to me that God who created all that is from nothing and who sent his only Son to demonstrate what man was originally created to be and who proclaimed the way of truth and life and then shed his innocent blood for our sake now needs a new approach. What Jesus proclaimed is as relevant today as it was the day he spoke the words of life and forgiveness. Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened.
Blessings.

Patrick| 5.27.10 @ 9:58PM

Baffled? Hardly. Vice is a cruel master. Many would rather rationalize away their sinfulness than to repent and be saved.

Nate W.| 5.28.10 @ 12:41AM

Thanks for the "meat of the matter" comment, Bill. The elephant in the room here is that many Christians (so-called?) are having trouble with the concept that Political Correctness and Ultimate Truth are decidedly incompatible. Proclaim the Word of God clearly without pretext or modern "interpretation"? The liberal says:"You cant do that, it's too divisive and extremist!!"
(I would remind you of the verse describing God's Word as "dividing soul and spirit". Division through Truth (and Love) is a main tenet of Christian theology. It's a good thing!)

Ryan| 5.27.10 @ 8:20AM

I think the emergent movement asks all the right questions and comes up with all the wrong answers. It practically rejects everything that has been done in the past 2000 years on theological matters; seems to reject the Gospel and basic Christianity for a feel-good, make-me-happy "moral therapeutic deism."

I can appreciate challenging the way things are done in churches - it's badly needed right now, particularly in light of the megachurch movement (which I hold in equal disdain - Joel Osteen is just as bad for the Gospel as the "big E" Emergent movement and the same therapeutic deism I mentioned above).

All in all, it rejects sin and our need for a Saviour, trying to over-intellectualize the Bible and religion.

FWIW, I'm a reformed Baptist who attends a Presbyterian PCA (the conservative branch) church with a heavy interest in theology (I'm the kid who paid attention in Sunday School growing up).

Alert1201| 5.27.10 @ 9:32AM

Good post Ryan. From one Reformed Baptist to another.

Gary | 5.29.10 @ 9:49PM

As another Reformed Baptist I am wondering why Alert and Ryan are that concerned about the E's. God is calling those whom He wills and whatever state they are in. We were all dead in our trespasses and sin and God wants to show His glory by saving us anyway. The desperate pride of the E's and us Reformed Baptists is just the thing God seems to enjoy humbling by saving us despite our arrogance.

JS| 5.27.10 @ 1:51PM

Its interesting that you mention Mr. Osteen. He is not a pastor or a preacher. He will not preach on sin. He will not acknowledge the wrongs of other religions. He is a great motivational speaker, but he is no pastor. He preaches prosperity theology, "God will bless you financially if you only do this..."

Christianity is not difficult. Jesus talked about the ease of His yoke the the lightness of His burden. It takes man to make it complicated. We should approach the Throne with the faith of a child. That's a nice way of saying 'keep it simple stupid'. (and I am often the stupid one being referred to).

KyMouse| 5.27.10 @ 9:40AM

This week, a group of "interfaith" clergy in my town assembled to hand out food; the church-goers in the group pointed out that Jesus said, "Feed my sheep." Never mind that He wasn't talking about planting more grass in the pasture: He is the Bread of Life (John 6:35) for the hungry and Living Water for the thirsty (John 4:13-14).

How many churches today preach about Jesus' warning in John 3:14-18, especially: "He who believes in [Me] is not condemned; but he who does not believe is already condemned, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

Jesus said many things about treating one's neighbor as oneself, and it certainly is important to help others. But He made it clear that He gave His life to pay for the sins of everyone who will put their faith (obedient trust) in Him (Isaiah 53:5-6). That message is increasingly unpopular today, as the wolves devour the sheep.

Patrick| 5.27.10 @ 10:16PM

I've got one answer for you.

John 12:1-8

Judas always looks to help the poor at the expense of Jesus - helping poor Judas in particular.

Steve| 5.27.10 @ 10:08AM

The Emergent church, and Jim Wallis in particular, are ludicrously transparent leftists. Nothing more. Wallis is an old hippie, an SDS (truly!) radical from the 60's who stumbled into community organizing..er, community organizing with a sheen of Christianity.. after the "Revolution" petered out in the 70's. What a joke.

Standard lefties with a little Jesus on top.

SR| 5.27.10 @ 10:13AM

BRIAN MCLAREN QUOTES:

BRIAN MCLAREN (Emerging Church leader): "Jesus seems to say, 'The kingdom of God doesn’t need to wait until something else happens. No, it is available and among you now.... Invite people of all nations, races, classes, and religions to participate in this network of dynamic, interactive relationships with God and all God’s creation!" ... the kingdom of God will be radically, scandalously inclusive. As we’ve seen, Jesus enjoys table fellowship with prostitutes and drunks.... He affirms and responds to the faith of Gentiles—Romans and Syrophonecians and Samaritans." (Brian McLaren, The Secret Message of Jesus: Uncovering the Truth that could change everything (Nashville: Thomas Nelson's W Publishing Group, 1006), page 74 & 94).)

“Universalism is not as bankrupt of biblical support as some suggest,” (Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, (San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2003), pp. 103 (cf. pp. 182-183)

But without question McLaren does hold to the doctrine of inclusivism which teaches that while salvation has been made possible by Jesus Christ, it is not necessary to know who Jesus is, or the precise nature of what He has done. (Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, ( San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2003), pp. 103 (cf. pp. 182-183)

"It may be advisable in many (not all!) circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts,"… "Is our religion the only one that understands the true meaning of life? Or does God place his truth in others too? ... The gospel is not our gospel, but the gospel of the kingdom of God, and what belongs to the kingdom of God cannot be hijacked by Christianity" (p. 194). (Brian McLaren, An Emergent Manifesto, Baker Books).

In the second foreword to Dan Kimball's book about the Emergent church Brian McLaren writes “Our understandings of the gospel constantly change as we engage in mission in our complex dynamic world, as we discover that the gospel has a rich kaleidoscope of meaning to offer, yielding unexplored layers of depth, revealing uncounted facets of insight and relevance. No doubt as we look back and see ways in which our modern understandings of the gospel were limited or flawed”

"What if there are thousands of John Calvins out there.... what if God decided to make a lot of them gay?"
--Brian McLaren, Lecture at Princeton Theological Seminary, Nov. 2005

"I don't think we've got the gospel right yet. What does it mean to be 'saved'?.... I don't think the liberals have it right. But I don't think we have it right either. None of us has arrived at orthodoxy."
--Brian McLaren, The Emergent Mystique, Christianity Today, 2004

“Scripture is something God had ‘let be,’ and so it is at once God’s creation and the creation of the dozens of people and communities and cultures who produced it.”
--Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 162

“The Christian faith, I am proposing, should become (in the name of Jesus Christ) a welcome friend to other religions of the world, not a threat”
--Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy McLaren, p.254

"I must add, though, that I don't believe making disciples must equal making adherents to the Christian religion. It may be advisable in many circumstances to help people become followers of Jesus and remain within their Buddhist, Hindu, or Jewish contexts."
--Brian McLaren, A Generous Orthodoxy, p. 260

"[T]his is one of the huge problems with the traditional understanding of hell, because if the Cross is in line with Jesus' teaching, then I won't say the only and I certainly won't say ... or even the primary or a primary meaning of the Cross ... is that the Kingdom of God doesn't come like the kingdoms of this world by inflicting violence and coercing people. But that the kingdom of God comes thru suffering and willing voluntary sacrifice right? But in an ironic way the doctrine of hell basically says no, that's not really true. At the end God get's his way thru coercion and violence and intimidation and uh domination just like every other kingdom does. The Cross isn't the center then, the Cross is almost a distraction and false advertising for God." Brian McLaren speaking http://www.podtrac.com/pts/red.....ple21b.mp3
In the midst of the Purpose Driven craze and an apparently sleeping church, Brian McLaren has endorsed a book that calls the doctrine of the Cross a vile doctrine. (p. 168, Reimagining Christianity - Alan Jones). The book? None other than Alan Jones' new book, Reimagining Christianity. Alan Jones is an inter-spiritualist and mystic. Take a look at the Living Spiritual Teachers Project, of which Jones is involved. This group of about twenty-five includes Zen and Buddhist monks, New Agers and even Marianne Williamson and her Course in Miracles. (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/brianmclaren.htm)
Brian McLaren of the "emerging church" calls contemplative Richard Foster the key mentor for the movement. (Christianity Today, November 2004)

"[H]e (Brian McLaren) concludes that the emerging church must be "monastic"—centered on training disciples who practice, rather than just believe, the faith.... He cites Dallas Willard and Richard Foster, with their emphasis on spiritual disciplines, as key mentors for the emerging church" (http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/brianmclaren.htm)
Christianity, Islam, and Judaism have more in common than many people realize because they all share a primal narrative, and they all flow from a common sacred fountainhead: a single figure, at once famous and mysterious, a Middle Eastern man named Abraham of Ur. … We can date Abraham’s birth to about 2000 BC, in modern-day Iraq, near present-day Nasarif. Like Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—and like us—Abraham was was raised in a pluralistic, polytheistic world. During his lifetime, he lived side by side with others who honored many different gods and practiced many different religions. … And during his lifetime, Abraham—like Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad—had an encounter with God that distinguished him from his contemporaries and propelled him into a mission, introducing a new way of life that changed the world… How appropriate that the three Abrahamic religions begin with a journey into the unknown. (McLaren, Finding Our Way Again, pgs. 22, 23, emphasis mine).
Brian McLaren = a true son of Lucifer.

Alexander Clement| 5.27.10 @ 11:27AM

SR: "Brian McLaren = a true son of Lucifer."

---He's a son of Lucifer because he holds different opinions than yours? Your demagoguery says more about how evil you are than anything about McLaren.

Should McLaren be put to death as a heretic, then? The Bible says YOUR HAND must be first in putting him to death (e.g. Deut. 13; Lev. 27).

If you don't, then I guess you're a heretic also for not obeying the Commandment of Scripture.

You people are despicable.

tom t| 5.27.10 @ 9:08PM

what a fool...

Nate W.| 5.28.10 @ 12:52AM

Alex Clem Troll, It seems you've googled a few "sock-it-to-em" verses. Now, leave Old Testament theology to those who truly "study to show themselves approved". Put away that "Sword of the Spirit" before you cut yourself, son!

Kudos for Klarity| 5.27.10 @ 8:14PM

Thanks for the quotes that clearly point to not a "generous orthodoxy" but age old heresies. Brian McLaren has a millstone waiting for his neck for all those he has deceived and led astray.

darcy| 5.28.10 @ 2:34AM

And AMEN to that, Kudos for Klarity.

Douglas Fletcher| 5.31.10 @ 1:45AM

Well, Brian McLaren was in my Spanish 4 class at Peary High School in Rockville, Maryland, 1973-4. I remember him as being as nice a guy as you could ask anyone to be, religious or not.

Hence I'm skeptical of the notion that he is a true son of Lucifer. But what do I know, I've only actually met him.

D| 5.31.10 @ 8:31PM

I've heard Hitler was a nice guy, too... The Bible doesn't say to discern by the niceness of their manners, it says by their fruits you will know them. MacLaren's fruit is anti-God's word.

Karl Ingersoll | 5.27.10 @ 10:20AM

I am amazed at how definitive a person can be about a movement that I would not consider to have such clear parameters. I am happy that there are people who can look at the sterile N.A. church and simply conclude that there has to be more to this. Good for "them" . . . they'll break the already broken church in a new way that just might make a positive difference. And there must be a change . . . I'd rather embark on a disovery of successive failures that leads somewhere else than park in institutional oblivion. - Karl

Sandra| 5.27.10 @ 10:26AM

Traditional (and hard-line) churches and congregations are increasing. Religion-lite is fading fast, no more puppet-liturgies and "priestess" presiding. "Hippie-dippy" in rainbow vestments are dying out and young "men in black" are their replacements.

It's not just a "Catholic" thing, it's happening in other churches too.

SR, just remember, Satan is real, and Mohammad is his prophet,

The Jews and Christians 'embrace life' and treat the stranger, outcast, and unbeliever with kindness. In Islam, there is no such thing.

In Judaism and Christianity, "The Truth will Free You." In Islam, lying is not only allowed, it's encouraged.

Until Muslims love their children's lives more than they love death, there can be no peace.

JS| 5.27.10 @ 1:58PM

Very well said!

I have never heard it put "satan is real and muhammed is his prophet." I hope you dont' mind, but I'm going to use that. It is the truth and needs to be spoken. I thank God for his Son and that I am an infedel!

Darragh| 5.27.10 @ 6:39PM

This is true. I see many younger people at traditional services. And actually priesthood candidates are slowly increasing, which you'd never hear in the MSM. We need them as we face more and more persecution.

As for Islam, I don't understand it and I leave that judgment to God.

James | 5.27.10 @ 11:33AM

This article was a little fun to read at times because of the stereotypes, however, there is one major problem with it. You simply cannot lump everyone in the emerging church into one category. It's like lumping all the Baptists together or the Presbyterians or Episcopalians. I personally do not want to be lumped in the same category as Brian McLaren. However, there's some guys that I'm not 100% like, but guys like Mark Driscoll or Dan Kimball are very orthodox.

I would affirm that in the past, the American church has been based off of Modernity and influenced by the Enlightenment. The Post-Modern or Post-Enlightenment worldview is mostly defined by the faults of Modernity and acknowledges that there are major flaws in the worldview as a whole (i.e. rational being the ultimate definer of truth). I also affirm that "The Emerging Church" (if you can even use that phrase anymore, because it seems to have arrived) movement was the church of the Post-Moderns.

There is a sect (along with Brian McLaren) which is unorthodox and often take a politically liberal stance on everything. However, there is another sect which holds strong to doctrine yet has open methodology. These "Emerging Pastors" look up to guys like John Piper, John Calvin, Wayne Grudem, R.C. Sproul, J.I. Packer, and other great theologians. Regardless of how you feel about reformed theology, you cannot argue that it's a "watering down of theological." On the methodology end, a sense of history is huge (including hymns, and ancient icons). In regards to buildings, they would like to worship in an old cathedral over a movie theatre. However, a worship service would look like the people in the church. In the contemporary movement, there was this standardization of musical style (an U2esque rock which is best seen in people like Chris Tomlin or Matt Redman), in the newer churches the musical style often takes on it's own sound. If the people in the church (and the guys in the band) have an '80s rock background, the music will lean towards '80s rock, while if the people have an electronica background, the music will also also lean towards electronica. On a very positive end, the "worship wars" is not something post-moderns care to get in a debate over. They would rather have a debate over an important theological issue or discuss how they can get food to those who need it in the city or clean water to those in Africa who a drinking mud.

Another important thing that has happened in the post-modern churches is a respect for those who have different (or opposing theological bends). This means that post-moderns are open to, and would love to, partner with the local Baptists, Presbyterians, Methodists, Episcopalians, etc. in order to do good and love justice in their community. A good national example of this is "Together for the Gospel," just google it, you'll be encouraged. Mark Driscoll would fit in this category.

There's a third group of Post-Modern Churches which is really the new Willow Creek or New Evangelicals. They still value Social Justice and Shalom to be brought to the city, but Biblical application is often a higher value than historical doctrine. They still hold to orthodoxy, art and beauty are a value, and musically are in are an edgyer version of "Contemporary." Erwin McManus would be a good example of this.

Mark Driscoll did a great evaluation of "The Emerging Church" a while ago and he also makes these 3 categories. You should be able to find the audio of this if you wish to learn more. But he also wrote an excellent article for the Christian Research Journal.

However, if I can add a fourth category (which I find myself in). Is a hybrid of several of these categories. Strong emphasis on doctrine and orthodoxy and reformed theology. Also holds to the same value of Shalom and realizes the biblical story not only restores all people to God, but also restores all creation and advancing the power of the Gospel means giving the good news that people can be free from the bondage of sin, but Christians should be about mercy and justice in their city. However, a a strong value (which this article addressed) is community. This value is simply because it is in community where Christians hold each other accountable, encourage one another, challenge one another, receive the most spiritual growth, and even help one another (either spiritually, or with addictions, or even to help each other alleviate their poverty). This doesn't mean that the assembly is forsaken, there are often still a gathering of the church, however, the emphasis is on community. This means the staffing, the pastor's time & energy, the church's funds are not focused on the worship service, but are focused on the community and equipping people to do the work of a missionary. Both in trying to restore people to God, but also to bring about God's Shalom to the city. This is a hybred between Mark Driscoll and Dan Kimball. However guys like Jeff Vanderstelt and Soma Communities would be a good example of this.

Hope this brings some clarity. I've found it especially difficult when articles like this lump the Post-Modern churches together in the same category because when they try to do good in the community, the older evangelical churches start throwing the "emerging" label around and then start doing name calling like "liberal" or "unorthodox" simply because they think all post-modern churches are liberal and unorthodox when it's really just a very small portion which get the most press coverage.

Ryan| 5.27.10 @ 12:03PM

I agree with you here - I think the distinction is best made with a big-"E" Emergent Church - which is McLaren and similar thinkers; and small-"e" emergent-influenced which we are seeing in very orthodox denominations (where I also tend to find myself a part of).

I think the better distinction is where the primacy of the Gospel is and what Sin is; The Emergent movement seems to reject the idea at times, will emerging-influenced bodies still hold to the idea that Sin must be dealt with.

Margie| 5.27.10 @ 11:48AM

It's so sad how the Devil decieves people into believing that you don't need to be serious about where you're heading. We are all headed to Hell apart from the saving Mercy and Grace of God through Jesus Christ. The preachers and teachers who preach and teach ONLY about a good life now, and Heaven later do a great diservice to thier flocks and aren't preaching the true Gospel.
You can't have the Good News without an admission of the bad news.

The Good News is that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world, and that HAS to include you and me. The bad news is that we're all utterly ruined by sin and in desparate need of saving, and are heading for Hell because of our sinful natures. Followed by more Good News (it is the definition of the word gospel), that if we choose to believe in Him we will not be condemned. But you have to preach the entire gospel, not ONLY the abundant life that He desires for us as Christians. We were bought with a price since Christ gave His life for each and every one of us. " ..you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body." 1 Cor. 6:20. It is amazing that He would even have anything to do with us, but He does. We owe Him our lives, and our service, which doesn't mean "belonging to a Religion." But it does mean actually belonging to Him. It's about a relationship with Him, that He promises to share with us if we promise to follow Him. How? By His Spirit that He gives us when we honestly ask Him to come inside of our hardened hearts and make them soft again. "A new heart I will give you, and a new spirit I will put within you; and I will take out of your flesh the heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh." Is. 36:26.

You couldn't ask for a more loving, kind, merciful God who actually waits to be gracious to us. "Therefore the LORD waits to be gracious to you; therefore He exalts himself to show mercy to you. For the LORD is a God of justice; blessed are all those who wait for Him." Is. 30:18.
The Gospel (the Good News) in a nutshell~
Jn. 3:16-21
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not condemned; he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the Name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil. For every one who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."

He paid the ultimate price for us. We owe Him ourselves.

mejamom| 5.27.10 @ 12:21PM

I agree with everything you said.
I noticed how some other posters mentioned "the gift of faith." Why God only gives this gift to some of us is one of those mysteries about which I tell my religious ed class. We don't know the mind of God or why he does what he does. Maybe because of that, I don't get too upset about these "emergent" churches. They'll either fizzle out or change again to suit what's popular. If some members are activly doing some good, the way Christ calls us to do, I'm not bothered. God will do with them what He sees fit.

darcy| 5.28.10 @ 2:51AM

In large part I agree, too, with Margie. Yet, I would refine the message thus: Jesus died for your sins, believe it.

The choosing part is not of our doing, it is the working of the Holy Spirit through the gospel message -- so that even our believing is not something we do or can do, it is the gift of faith, so that no one can boast, as Paul writes in Ephesians.

But what we can do is reject the message, reject the gift, continue in our unbelief, and suffer the eternal consequences.

This whole emergent church thing is heresy, except where the preaching of God's Word has reached the hearts of some so that they are eager to leave the heretical emergent church and seek out orthodoxy. "So is my word that goes out from My mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it." It will harden sinners in their unbelief or lead them to repentance and faith.

Margie| 5.28.10 @ 1:25PM

It's so true, darcy. That even the supposed choosing we do is even God's doing.

"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me; and him who comes to Me I will not cast out." Jn. 6:37.

It's the amazing Grace of God. How else do we explain for example the apostle Paul, who used to persecute Christians? He said of himself that he was the least of the apostles, unfit to be called one. And he is right. No one, (and especially me) "deserves" to be saved, but God saves what is lowest in the world in order to show His amazing Mercy and Grace!

"God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are.." 1 Cor. 1:28.

Dave Williams| 5.27.10 @ 12:46PM

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: There is not the slightest shred of evidence, let alone proof, that any part of a human survives after death. And no, that doesn't make my life meaningless: on the contrary, it makes every day I'm here to enjoy it (and no, that doesn't mean selfish hedonism) a priceless treasure.

mejamom| 5.27.10 @ 12:59PM

You're right, there is no proof. But what am I to do who has a true conviction (what I call gift of faith) that there is something more? It's impossible for me to ignore. If you're doing good things for our fellow man, great. I find it interesting that selfless acts of kindness, etc. are written about in religious holy books and have been for a very long time.

Margie| 5.29.10 @ 12:23PM

mejamom,

Actually there is an abundance of proof that Jesus was and still is living. When He walked this earth, He did so many miracles that, the Bible says this~ "But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written." Jn. 21:25.

And He still does miracles today, and some are documented. For example, do a search on this name: Betty Baxter. And Ronald Coyne. I saw them both, and they are/were living examples. (I do not know if they are still living.)

Jesus is also the only person to ever be risen from the dead! There were witnesses to this event as well. If He were not risen from the dead, and not still alive, then how would we explain the miracles that are still done in His Name only?

But greater than even the physical miracales That Jesus does, is the miracle of the new birth.. the fact that He can come inside your heart and make it soft again. That He can erase your sins and cast them into the sea of forgetfulness. That He will take you up out of the miry bog and set your feet upon a rock. That He will rescue your soul from the Pit. That He will save you from the lion's den.

That He will have anything to do with us, who are complete and utter rebels is a miracle in itself. The fact that you have a strong conviction is a sure sign that He is having something to do with you, too. Treasure it.

fullernambia| 5.27.10 @ 2:30PM

Then, why are wasting your time even reading this discussion?

Patrick| 5.27.10 @ 10:21PM

That one never gets old.

BA Cyclone| 5.28.10 @ 1:06PM

There's not the slightest shred of evidence that man causes global warming, yet we have quite a number of "scientists" running around the globe proclaiming their faith in such theories as scientific fact and demanding governments fix it.

Doctor Right| 5.27.10 @ 12:54PM

Ecclesiastes 1:9

9 What has been will be again,
what has been done will be done again;
there is nothing new under the sun.

And none of this (the "emergent church") is new, either. Since the time of Christ's ascension, men have been trying to distort his message to suit their particular goals and philosophies.

For a Christian, the ONLY source we need for truth is the Bible. We don't need to change it, alter it, or adapt for our "modern" world. There's no problem, no situation, no circumsatnce described in scripture that can't be directly applied to our lives today. We're not more complex than people from antiquity; we've simply convinced ourselves that we are as a convenient excuse to ignore God's word. To fill that vacuum, nonsense flows in...Like the "emergent Church", and practically anything Jim Wallis says.

Margie| 5.27.10 @ 2:07PM

Dr. Right & mejamom,
Well said. Who was it that said that there's a God shaped vacuum inside each one of us? It is true. Only the One who created us is able to fill it. Nothing the world has to offer can compare to what God wants to give us.

"Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid." Jn. 14:27.

"Come to Me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you, and learn from Me; for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light." Mt. 11:28-30.

Paevo| 5.27.10 @ 2:07PM

"Since the time of Christ's ascension, men have been trying to distort his message to suit their particular goals and philosophies. "

That's correct. They called themselves Gnostics, and their texts create quite a sensation today on the History Channel...

Patrick| 5.27.10 @ 10:24PM

What I find most odd is how similar in practice modern liberalism is with gnosticism, while holding an entirely inverted premise.

Gnosticism: Matter is a lie and evil, break as many commandments as you can.

Liberalism: Spirit is a lie and evil, break as many commandments as you can.

mikeames| 5.27.10 @ 3:50PM

dave williams,
Of course you totally discount the Ressurection Of Christ which is the core of the Christian faith. Men and women fearful of being associated with Christ became martyrs for him after the Resurrection. This of course is not proof but it is reasonable evidence based on reliable documention. Of course Christ himself called himself THE Way, THE Truth and THE Life and HE REFERRED TO HIMSELF as GOD. So he either was or he was some kind of lunatic.

Bayou Babe| 5.28.10 @ 1:26PM

Liberation Theology coupled with Gnosticism. Never seen that before now have we? Pfft.

Kudos for Klarity| 5.29.10 @ 9:45AM

Bayou Babe gets it right. McLaren's heresies are nothing new. Liberal pseudo-Christianity is an obvious failure just as liberal politics. So what to do? Re-brand it. Use different words. Change the definitions of words. McLaren's "generous orthodoxy" is simply the same liberal mishmash that has been emptying churches for the past 40 years.

Richard Baker| 5.30.10 @ 9:14AM

Pseudo-Christianity is just the Baby Boomer version of Flip Wilson's Church of What's Happening Now. Remember, God IS making a list and checking it twice.

jffkdi| 7.1.10 @ 3:58AM

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