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David Cameron's Christian Understanding
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Special Report
Resenting African Christianity
Liberal Episcopalians and Methodists blame it all on the U.S. right wing.
Fast growing African Christianity, both evangelical and Catholic, is transforming global religion and affecting American Christianity, particularly its debates over homosexuality. The U.S. Episcopal Church, of course, has been prominently roiled by controversy since its 2003 election of an openly homosexual bishop, now joined by a newly elected openly lesbian bishop. African Anglican bishops, overwhelmingly conservative, have steadfastly encouraged the global Anglican Communion to sanction U.S. Episcopalians for their heterodoxy. But the Anglican Communion's authority is mostly symbolic, and the Episcopal Church governs itself. A new communion, the Anglican Church in North America, is largely for orthodox former Episcopalians, many of whom have placed themselves under the authority of African bishops.
Considerably less publicized but no less significant is the United Methodist Church, which now almost uniquely among liberal-led, old-line denominations continues to affirm orthodox teachings on marriage and sexual ethics. The traditionalist stance, dismaying to its liberal elites, is thanks partly to the denomination's growing African membership. Unlike the U.S. Episcopal Church, which is almost entirely U.S. members plus some small dioceses from Latin America and Taiwan, United Methodism is more fully international, with about one third of its members in Africa. Amid growing United Methodist churches in the Democratic Republic of the Congo and Nigeria, among others, and a U.S. church losing about a 1,000 members weekly, the 11.4 million denomination likely will soon be majority African. At the church's next governing General Conference in 2012, probably 40 percent of the delegates will come from outside the U.S., even further diminishing liberal hopes.
Liberal church activists are reluctant to acknowledge that African Christianity has a firm mind of its own, preferring condescendingly to portray it as primitive and easily manipulated by conservative U.S. religionists. It is true that much of African Christianity is new, somewhat similar to fast growing, early American frontier revivalism in its earnest faith, populism, and strong sense of the supernatural. According to the World Christian Encyclopedia of 2001, Africa was less than 10 percent Christian in 1900 but was over 45 percent Christian by 2000. (This compares to Islam's growth in African from 32 percent to 40 percent.) About 20 percent of the world's Christians now live in Africa, and rates of active church attendance are higher in Africa than in much of old Christendom. One Congolese bishop estimated that more Congolese are in a United Methodist Church on a typical Sunday than in all the United States.
But liberal U.S. church activists usually sorely underestimate the depth and richness of African Christianity, including its intellectual traditions, some of which date to the early Church Fathers. Infamously, revisionist retired U.S. Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong once derided African Anglicans for having "moved out of animism into a very superstitious kind of Christianity," while condemning Third World "religious extremism" and "Pentecostal hysteria." In the patronizing spirit of Bishop Spong, some liberal activists claim African church leaders, in their opposition to liberal U.S. church trends, especially about sex, are merely U.S. pawns. A recent example comes from a Massachusetts watchdog of conservative groups called Political Research Associates, which commissioned a Zambian clergyman from the Episcopal Diocese of Massachusetts to expose the supposed manipulation of African churches. His report of last year, "Globalizing the Culture Wars: U.S. Conservatives, African Churches and Homophobia," outlines the conspiracy, which claims more or less that African Christianity's opposition to homosexual causes essentially originated in America. California mega-church pastor Rick Warren is one of the identified conspirators, as is my own Institute on Religion and Democracy.
"Just as the United States and other northern societies routinely dump our outlawed or expired chemicals, pharmaceuticals, machinery, and cultural detritus on African and other Third World countries, we now export a political discourse and public policies our own society has discarded as outdated and dangerous," breathlessly intoned the report's introduction. "Africa's antigay campaigns are to a substantial degree made in the U.S.A." The report views debates over homosexuality through the American and Western left's own secular political prism and its preoccupation with endless diversity, obsessive individualism and resistance to transcendent authority. It does not even try to understand African Christianity's own worldview, rooted in Scripture, orthodox church teaching, and responsibilities beyond the self.
Condescension towards African Christianity guided a recent United Methodist attempt to sideline growing African churches by creating a new, U.S. only regional conference that would potentially create its own rules while excluding the Africans. Ostensibly this exclusion would empower the Africans by releasing them from concerns about the U.S. church. Endorsed by the church's Council of Bishops and a two-thirds vote at the denomination's governing General Conference in 2008, the restructuring required ratification by two thirds of the voters at local annual conferences last year. Mournfully, the bishops released the voting results early this month. (See my assistant Connor Ewing's article.) Almost without precedent, over 60 percent of the nearly 50,000 United Methodist voters at conferences around the world rejected the bishops' plan. Most revealingly, over 94 percent of African voters, evidently not wanting this kind of "empowerment" by exclusion, voted no.
Undoubtedly United Methodist liberals will craft new attempts to marginalize the growing African churches. And U.S. Episcopalians will largely ignore the protests of the nearly 80 million member Communion, now dominated by large African churches that increasingly dwarf the dwindling U.S. denomination's 2 million in both numbers and vitality. How persuasive will the emptying old-line churches of New England and California be against the arguments of hundreds of millions of African Christians?
About the Author
Mark Tooley is president of the Institute on Religion and Democracy in Washington, D.C. and author of Taking Back the United Methodist Church.
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Logophile| 5.21.10 @ 6:27AM
Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."
"If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."
The light is definitely passing from the West to the Global South. The liberal churches are dead wood. There is no life in them. What I find appalling is the blatant racism and bigotry of the supposedly enlightened liberals against the faithful Christians of the South.
Miss Alabama| 5.21.10 @ 11:10AM
What I find appalling is the blatant ignorance and HOMOPHOBIA of the "Christians" of the South!
You can despise gay people all you like, but they will prevail in the end. Homosexuality is as equal in the eyes of God as heterosexuality, and those of us who support gay rights will never give in to your attempts to deny them their full humanity.
Just as you did not choose to be heterosexual, they did not choose to be homosexual. I denounce the hateful and barbaric verses in the Bible that condemn homosexuality, just as I denounce the blatant misogyny that is threaded throughout the Bible. These verses were written by primitive tribesmen (all male) who had no knowledge of science or genetics or ethics, for that matter.
I suppose Mr. Tooley also supports Uganda's efforts to impose the death penalty for homosexuals.
You are an insult to Christ and His teachings, and I and my liberal churchgoers will denounce you all the way. Hateful bigots, all of you!
For God's sake, "Open your hearts and minds." (a United Methodist slogan)
Harvey Scoggins| 5.21.10 @ 11:17AM
Thank you, Miss Alabama, for your humane, 21st century insight on sexuality.
But I am afraid you are wasting your breath trying to persuade the rancid readers of this right-wing rag. "Open hearts, open minds?" Are you kidding!
BangBang| 5.22.10 @ 8:12AM
I resent African Evangelical Christianity because it is foolish superstition that hovers just a small step above their pracitice of animism.
The continent of Africa is still the dark continent where tribal hatred is rampant. Instead of evangelism, the Africans need humane education that teaches kindness and tolerance.
Just say no to evangelical Christianity.
BackTOBasics| 5.22.10 @ 10:39AM
Your quote:
Just say no to evangelical Christianity.
Is that your idea of tolerance?
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 11:23AM
Thank you for demonstrating why your branch of Methodism is declining rapidly while the moderate and conservative branches I represent as a clergyman (now retired) are growing. In a few short lines you show us the self-righteous, angry, arrogant lack of love that the leftist church is notorious for. You are the haters, dear girl, not us.
Sol Weinstein| 5.21.10 @ 11:48AM
Big Leo,
I see you are "retired." Good!
The young people who are coming up are far more accepting of gays than your generation. And there are many churches out there, organized and controlled by the young, who are preaching love and understanding of all--including the gays who sit in their midst.
For the life of me, I cannot understand this intolerance of people whose sexual orientation is a little different from the norm.
Here in Israel, we have greater respect for gays, and they serve openly in the armed forces as enlisted men and women and as officers. Are you listening, America?
Sorry, old man, you and your kind are on the way out. "Goodbye and good riddance" is what I say.
1FreeMan| 5.21.10 @ 1:06PM
Sol Weinstein said "...you and your kind are on the way out. "Goodbye and good riddance" is what I say. "
Will you continue to spew that garbage when your young, totally void of morality, fall to drugs, sexual diseases and crime? No morals, no homor, no direction. Please, stay in Israel. You have created you own problems and we Americans are bankrolling your security. We certainly don't need to hear about your social problems on top of your political mess.
Sol Weinstein| 5.21.10 @ 1:48PM
I do think I smell a whiff of anti-semitism from 1FreeMan.
But I'm not surprised. Fundamentalist Christians, as most Jews can tell you, are anti-semitic and always have been. They even go one step farther in their anti-semitism by claiming that the ANTI-CHRIST WILL BE A JEW!
Don't believe me? Just type "antichrist will be a jew" in Google Search, and you will see that Jerry Falwell, along with many other fundamentalist "Christians" make this claim.
sestamibi| 5.21.10 @ 2:13PM
Sol, you're a moron. As a fellow landssman, I can see what you refuse to: that the rejection of Torah by our people in favor of embrace of the latest fashions in feminism and homosexuality. Sol, haven't you noticed that our numbers are dwindling and soon won't even show on the political radar screen?
no to obama| 5.21.10 @ 2:14PM
Jerry Falwell is deseased. I am a Christian and I know God wants ALL to be treated with equality.
If the gays would just live their lives and quit with the gay pride parades and the in your face dogma, perhaps they wouldn't get so much resistance.
And yes, the young are "more tolerant" because they aren't being taught that this is an abomination in God's eyes.
All are loved, dispite our sins.
JOHN| 5.21.10 @ 5:05PM
Sorry to disagree with you Mr. Weinstein, but you will find that most Fundamentalist Christians are very pro Israel while most Liberals are antisemitic. Typical liberals, smear if you can't base your argument on facts.
Sol Weinstein| 5.21.10 @ 5:51PM
As an Israeli Jew, I do not appreciate your help one bit. But you're right on one thing: the fundmentalists are funding Israel because you are Christian Zionists.
What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act--no matter its evil intent-- taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
The morally repugnant Prophecy and Politics imbedded in Christian Zionism is dangerous and it is a growing segment of Christianity, and I and many of my countrymen denounce it.
Pro Israel? Would be that it were not so! Fundamentalist Christians are very similar to Fundamentalist Muslims. You're both dangerous.
Give me American liberals any day.
Brian L.| 5.21.10 @ 9:22PM
As a conservative Jew, I can smell a self hating socialist loving Jew a mile away. Your moral relativism will gain you nothing in this world but contempt from Israel's enemies. Both the Bible and the Torah eschew what you describe as acceptance. If you can't see right from wrong you'll never find the light. Besides, far more Christians support the rights of Israel than the communist loving progressive Jews in the U.S.
patrick marsh| 5.24.10 @ 8:53AM
Interesting that no one sees evil at work here. As the liberals say we are all Gods creatures. I think that the mods and consevatives would agree with this but see Gods plan for man as one that rises above our instincts. Gays have been given the gift and/or curse to rise above thier instincts and have instead chosen to give into them instead. If other forms of sinning are too hard for some people why dont we just change gods rules for these as well?? Then we can all feel good ....at least until the day of gods reckoning. As for "Goodbye and good riddance", look into your heart and remember Christs last message to his disciples...who do you think is speaking to you??
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 4:38PM
You'll no doubt be distressed to learn that young Christians feel the same way about it as old Christians do, Sol. The churches that promote traditional Scriptural values are the ones that have the young people. The ones who replace this with tired old liberalism are the ones that are declining at the speed of light and furthermore are aging rapidly. Your anti-semitic remarks are pure garbage as well. My Jewish friends (and relatives) who follow Torah and are faithful agree with me, not with you. Secular Judaism and liberal Judaism are declining. Orthodox and Hasidic Judaism are expanding rapidly. I am the farthest thing from a fundamentalist, of course. Try to think outside your cliches for awhile.
1FreeMan| 5.21.10 @ 1:00PM
Mss Alabama,
You are clearly a left-wing idiot spewing poison and hate wherever you slither.
I hope the damnation you ask for by putting words into God's mouth finds you. The Bible makes it very clear thet homosexuality IS NOT EQUAL to heterosexuality. Soddom and Gomorrah... did you read that part? You and your liberal "I hate God and Christian" friends are trying to change and dilute the faith of Jesus Christ and THAT is a big deal.
Another point: We who worship Christ do not hate homosexuals. Quite the opposite. We love them and pray for their salvation. If they refuse to change we still love them and pray for them. Period. God will judge or forgive based on individual faith, not man. Open my heart and mind? The Bible tells me to do otherwise.
Elery Muroski| 5.21.10 @ 1:50PM
1FreeMan,
Don't you pray for my salvation. By reading your posts, I can see that you are far more in need of salvation than I.
1FreeMan| 5.21.10 @ 2:16PM
Please keep your new-world religion to yourself. I am pleased that my "old tiime" religion does not satisfy or measure up to your standards. Happy to hear it. The Word of God may be changed by you folks on paper but it is still the Word. You can pretend you didn't read the parts you disagree with but that is between you and the maker. When you begin to preach it, it is a different matter. No where am I commanded to turn a blind eye to people pretending ot be phrophets, changing the word of truth. Also, nowhere am I instructed to love a Nation (like Israil) above my faith. Far from antisemetic, I train their military and have defended them with my life. You clueless liberal punks know so little of the world it is disturbing. Please go to school, church... SOMETHING to get a clue. K?
Rebecca T. of NYC| 5.21.10 @ 2:20PM
Here’s the slogan the Christian Fundamentalists displayed on car bumpers and across the Internet. It read simply: “Pray for Obama: Psalm 109:8”.... Christian Science Monitor
Here's the verse you find when you consult scripture:
Let his days be few; and let another take his office.
And here's the verse that immediately follows:
Let his children be fatherless, and his wife a widow.
Hate speech? Both the Bible and Fundamentalist Christians employ it. And, evidently, many of the readers of AmSpec do also.
Ryan| 5.21.10 @ 1:02PM
If you're a Christian, what authority do you have to "denounce" selected parts of scripture? If you can "denounce" those parts, could not others also denounce the parts having to do with God's love?
Homosexuality, lying, stealing, coveting, etc, are all sins. Christ saves us from them, but it is repentance - NOT acceptance or tolerance - that brings us to salvation.
There isn't much in scripture that says we "choose" to sin. It's more often the opposite - we have sinful natures. Doing Good is what is against our nature.
Simply because a person cannot control their sinful behaviour - and may actually not be completely responsible for it - does not give anyone authority to remove those parts of Scripture from the Bible.
If you also believe there is misogyny, you need to point it out. Those things which Paul wrote are typically balanced in other ways where they are NOT anti-women...and he often praises women as faithful servants of the Gospel (a fact often ignored by those who claim "misogyny!")
Tom S| 5.21.10 @ 1:40PM
Go hug faggots somewhere else. It's clear what's beyond your post - RACISM. You can't deal with the fact that Black Christians, like other true Christians, hate sinners like sodomites and murderers and thieves. Go back to California.
PJ| 5.21.10 @ 1:41PM
Miss Alabama,
I think most heterosexuals do not despise people w/homosexual tendencies; actually they are very accepting of them. What most heterosexuals despise is having to be told that homosexuality is just as ordinary as a heterosexuality & having their children taught that it is. Homosexuality is not the norm--- sorry.
At least 96% of the world's poulation is heterosexual w/the majority preferring a long-term monogamous relationship w/the opposite sex, which so happens to be a factor in a stable society. Most homosexuals prefer not to be in any long-term monogamous relationships. Abuse of any sort, ie, drug abuse, sexual, etc... is rampant w/in their community.
Can homosexuals still be positive contributers to society? You bet! Are they loved by God? Of course, not because of their sexuality but because they are also children of God!
You're correct in writing that homosexuality is not a choice. It is a "coping" behavior that was learned as a child from being sexually abused or not having a personal, healthy role model. There is no human gene that determines one's sexual orientation; it's behavioral.
I love my gay friends. They are so much fun to be around with. Yet, I do not want their lifestyle to be taught in schools as something normal. It is not.
1FreeMan| 5.21.10 @ 2:19PM
PJ, you said it much better than I did. I kinda messed it up, you fixed it: Thanks.
PJ| 5.21.10 @ 4:15PM
Thank you for your complement & for your service. & you didn't mess it up. Sometimes you have to fight fire w/fire!
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 4:41PM
Well said, PJ. You will note that the hate language here is almost exclusively used by the liberals.
The one fact that the leftists cannot face on this subject is that the religions that posit traditional values are growing and have a younger demographic. They believe in something far more improbable than virgin birth-- they believe that they represent progress.
Samantha Robbins| 5.21.10 @ 6:33PM
"They are so much fun to be around . . ."
Another stereotype.
I enjoy my gay friends because of their deep intellectual prowess and their splendid cultivation. I learn so much from them, and I value them for their knowledge, insight, and talent. As a Christian, I thank God for my gay friends. And as a country music enthusiast, I was so happy to read that Chely Wright, one of my favorite singers, came out today as GAY! She's sooo0 beautiful, and now she no longer has to pretend that her emotional and sexual orientation is heterosexual. Hooray!
Herb| 5.21.10 @ 6:37PM
She's gay? well damnit.
I want listen to her anymore. Looks like the whole world is going queer. And you approve. Your sick in the head.
Kenneth E. MacAlister Jr.| 5.21.10 @ 2:34PM
I want to thank you Miss Alabama for proving to everyone here the ONLY reason leftists go to church is to bring it down from within. Leftists twist & contort GOD's Holy Word to mean what they THINK it should mean, not what it really means. This Christian man does not hate gays or lesbians. We are taught to hate the sin & love the sinner. The homosexual lifestyle IS a sin & is abhorrent in the eyes of The Almighty GOD who created us all. If it was not He would not have destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah. And still The Almighty GOD loves you Miss Alabama & so do I. That said, you need to talk to GOD about your lifestyle just as I go to Him & ask forgiveness when I sin. A sin is a sin is a sin in the eyes of GOD. Please stop trying to justify your sin & ask GOD for His forgiveness & to help you change your lifestyle. I did, still do it, & so can you. You are right when you say you didn't ask to be a homosexual. I did not ask to be a sinner either, but I am & with GOD's help I try to do better each day, & so can you. Stop lashing out & go to GOD for help with your sin. He is waiting for you. Also Miss Alabama, don't trust in liberalism & good works through liberalism to open the Pearly Gates when your time comes. Jesus Christ is THE ONLY WAY to attain eternal life & no one goes to The Son except through The Father. Liberal denominations who put liberalism over GOD's Word & Commandments are doing the work of Satan for him.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 5:53PM
If you have to make up lies to accuse your opponents, you have already lost the argument. Christians do not despise homosexuals-- they have compassion and pity for them. You call the Bible hateful, misogynist, barbaric, and primitive and denounce male tribesmen for writing it-- but you are not the haters. Absurd!
Why you think you have anything in common with Christian belief, compassion, teaching, tradition, or reason is a mystery to all of us.
logophile| 5.21.10 @ 8:23PM
Homophobia - what an idotic word. Hateful! - ho, hum...boring! Bigot!...Yawn.
The liberals who hatefully cast these hackneyed, ad hominem words that they have lost all meaning.
I have been to Africa. The people have more faith in their little toes than the faithless liberal heretics like Ms Alabama could ever have.
Ms Alabama thinks she knows more than the Bible (the inspired word of God). The wisdom of God is foolishness to the likes of Ms Alabama.
Analytical Thinker| 5.21.10 @ 10:00PM
So . . . Miss Alabama, you are a churchgoer. Do you follow the ten commandments?
If so, you might want to read Christopher Hitchens' critique of the 10 Commandments.
Hitchens takes on the job of improving the 10 commandments by pruning the ethically dubious, challenging the impossible, and rectifying some serious omissions.
I believe we should make copies of his commandments and post them everywhere. They are definitely an improvement over the Bible's versions (there are at least three or four wildly different versions in the Bible).
Miss Alabama, time for you to lay down your Sunday school pamphlets and read Hitchens' brilliant critique. You will find it provocative but interesting, even entertaining.
Kenneth E. MacAlister Jr.| 5.22.10 @ 3:36PM
Analytical Thinker, your post of atheistic idiocy proves the point logophile made in the post before your own. The wisdom of GOD truly is foolishness to those who do not believe.
It takes much more faith to be an atheist than to believe in GOD. Faith that there is no GOD is a much greater gamble than faith that GOD exists also. AT, are you really prepared for the consequences when you find out you were wrong on Judgement Day? Christopher Hitchens won't save you. I'll be praying for you AT, even if you think it's a waste of time. With GOD everything is possible.
David Bennett| 5.24.10 @ 1:07PM
You have just demonstrated that to be tolerant one must be intolerant...
Bigmike| 5.24.10 @ 6:38PM
Sorry Ms. Alabama you can just pick and choose in the Bible what you like and don't like. God is the same today as he is yesterday. So if he smoked one city full of sodomites I doubt his view on homosexuality has changed just because you tell him it has.
Stuart Gathman| 1.3.11 @ 11:05PM
You are correct - there is no difference between heterosexual and homosexual in God's eyes. God hates sexual immorality of all orientations, because of the grievous harm it causes to the sinner ("he who sins sexually sins against his own body"). Heterosexual fornicators and adulterers are just as responsible for the spread of AIDS in Africa, for instance, as homosexual ones.
Agnostically Yours| 5.21.10 @ 2:02PM
Thank God for the African Fundamentalist Christians as represented in the Lord's Resistance Army!
From the BBC:
The BBC has uncovered a remote village in the DR Congo, where a massacre took place in December, leaving at least 321 dead and 250 villagers abducted. The murders were committed by fighters from the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), a notorious militia group originating in Uganda that now spreads mayhem and terror to neighboring countries. Human Rights Watch says this is one of the worst massacres carried out by the LRA. The stench of hundreds of bodies, hacked to death by the LRA, lingered for weeks. But the world is only hearing about the brutal deaths of men, women and children months later.
As a frequent reader of Am Spectator, I am revolted by the fundamentalist Christians who write articles and the fundies who respond. Are you all crazy?
PogoMogo| 5.21.10 @ 2:06PM
Crazy? Yes
Willfully ignorant? Yes
Spiteful? Yes
Redundant (as in superfluous)? Yes
PJ| 5.21.10 @ 2:24PM
And then there are those who use religion as an excuse for murdering. They are not faithful to their religion whether it's Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, .....
Stop stating the usual fallacy that religion causes mayhem. Compare to communism & nazism,ie, atheistic ideas, it's simply not true.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 4:43PM
Neither Toomey nor I are fundamentalists. You wouldn't know a fundamentalist if he bit you on the ankle. It's just a word you use with not even the remotest concept of what it means. How childish!
Jeffrey| 5.21.10 @ 4:59PM
@Agnostically Yours
sounds like the LRA committed an atrocity from your account.
I admit to very limited understanding of the conflicts in Africa. But remember well what happened in Rawanda & the Sudan. Most of the violence in the Sudan has been Muslims killing Christians. I don't know if this is directly connected to the LRA or not. However, many of the conflicts date back a loooong way in history.
So if you're trying to imply the LRA's actions are solely due to their Christianity, I'd act you to do a bit more research. You're likely to find a long and bloody history behind the actions.
John| 5.21.10 @ 5:12PM
The LRA is not a Christian Army. The wrong use of the word lord! Go check out Uganda and the people (Christians) who are fighting against the LRA.
eufems| 12.22.10 @ 10:11PM
That's what I call extremist.
And with all that mayhem, I doubt their (they being the LRA) being Christian is valid.
Christian Machete| 5.24.10 @ 10:40AM
Kill! Kill! Kill! In the name of Jesus, Kill!
Those Christian Africans can wield a machete like no other people on earth.
The Lord's Resistance Army (also Lord's Resistance Movement or Lakwena Part Two) is a Christian militant group based in northern Uganda.
"The United Nations is alarmed by reports it is receiving from field offices of a dramatic rise in the frequency and brutality of the Lord's Resistance Army's [LRA] attacks against civilians in the DRC and Sudan in the last four months, and increasingly in the CAR," said Melissa Fleming, spokesperson for the UN High Commissioner for Refugees.
"It just seems to us that this awful, murderous group has only one agenda and that is to terrorise, rape and kill with unimaginable brutality," she added.
Unimaginable brutality! And they are a Christian group! You American Spectator right-wing fundies sure know how to pick 'em!
But of course you would give them your support because Uganda is imposing the death penalty on gay people.
I swear you ringt-wingers are too unhinged to reason with . . . and, must I say, too hateful.
Stephanie| 5.21.10 @ 6:58AM
The liberals have always been the racist ones. The ones who know better and turn up their noses (see our current White House occupant) at those of us who believe in and worship the Lord Jesus Christ. I am so sickened by this man and his racist ilk and am still astonished that he is my president.
Jeffrey| 5.21.10 @ 5:05PM
@Stephanie,
I'm definitely not a fan of Obama and believe him to be a very dishonest man. The same can be said of much of the Democratic Party in its current incarnation.
That said making statements such as "liberals have always been the racist ones" is a bit of an over statement.
As a kid growing up in Georgia, I've seen a lot of racism of the old school, 'let's string 'em up, variety. Most of those people making statements like that were decidedly far removed from liberalism.
Conservatives can only gain while holding the higher ground. Giving in to our anger just provides ammo for the other guys & gals.
Tyrone Purvis| 5.21.10 @ 10:22PM
The Bible condones slavery:
Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
Tell me, is this good advice that is relevent for our times. Please explain. Thank you so much.
Nick| 5.22.10 @ 1:31AM
Mr. Purvis,
This passage of Scripture is not condoning slavery, or promoting it. It is acknowledging a fact of life.
To understand what is happening here, one has to know how brutal life was 3,300 years ago.
God is giving the Hebrews a code to live by, that He thinks they can handle. It was soon revealed that the Hebrews couldn't handle this new code. In Deuteronomy (Second Law) the code is loosened up by Moses.
"An eye for eye, tooth for tooth" was radical for its time. What was also radical was that slaves were treated as human beings with human rights, rather than mere property.
A slave was to be freed in the seventh year. If a master injured his slave, the slave was freed. Runaway slaves, from other countries, were given sanctuary. People who kidnapped someone, to sell them into slavery, were to be put to death.
Slaves in other countries were not treated this way.
The Bible must be read in the context of the times, and as a whole. Stoning may sound brutal to us, but it was a quicker and more humane death than being nailed to a cross.
Tyrone Purvis| 5.22.10 @ 7:48AM
Nick,
Man, do you ever know how to devise self-satisfying but incorrect reasons to justify your point.
Paradoxically, you are echoing Miss Alabammy when you say that God's word reflects the primitive and brutal mentality of the times. You got that right! Couldn't God have done a little better with his communication? A pity.
Now, I will ask one more time: How is this "advice" from GuhGod about slavery relevant to us?
Please do not prevaricate. Readers of AmSpec--those readers who are fiscally conservative but progressive in social ideas-- are sick of your erroneous thinking and evasiveness.
Rupert R.| 5.22.10 @ 8:04AM
Good point, Tyrone.
I too am sick of the kind of the neanderthal, bible- thumpin' conservatives that hang out on this blog. They give the more intelligent conservatives bad names.
This God nonsense is so irritating. The bible-believin' zealots (every word is Gawd's word) will go to any lengths to explain the bible's craziness--its contradictions--its scientific errors.
Ever wonder why God doesn't mention the DINOSAURS when telling of the creation? Amusing.
Just hold on a minute--NICK will explain it for you.
Nick| 5.22.10 @ 5:31PM
Too bad, Rupert, we Christians aren't going anywhere, anytime soon. We own the conservative movement.
You should concentrate more on being less of an anti-Christian bigot.
Tyrone Purvis--Say No to Hate| 5.23.10 @ 11:57AM
As a black man, I know the damage fundamentalist Christians have done to my people. You embraced the curse of Ham to keep African-Americans in subjugation as second-class citizens, just as you are using idiotic verses from Leviticus and Romans to attempt to make homosexuals second-class citizens and to deny them their rights and full humanity.
Because Ham was the father of black people, and because he and his descendants were cursed to be slaves because of his sin against Noah, (more nonsense) fundamentalist Christians said, "Africans and their descendants are destined to be servants, and should accept their status as slaves in fulfillment of biblical prophecy. You called us "niggers" and hanged us when we got out of line. The KKK was a fundamentalist Christian hate group.
Oh, how you all like to rave on about biblical prophecy.
You select from the bible those hideous verses, and don't make me list them, that support your own poisonous bigotry.
Nick, you are a hater. Time you and others with similar mindsets stopped extending so much energy on this blog expressing your vile opinions.
Hank| 5.23.10 @ 12:12PM
Whoa, man!
You said it, Tyrone! Brother you spoke the truth!
Fundamentalist Christianity has to be attacked with both barrels blazing, and I hope you will continue to blaze away, exposing the hypocricy behind the pious facades of such posters as Nick, 1FreeMan, BigLeo, and countless others.
I've noticed that there are very few women posters on any subject. The responders are mostly old men--you can tell by their hackneyed, geezer expressions--and they are set in their ways, and their putrid prejudices are repeated ad nauseum.
I presume these old men's physical appearances are just as ugly as their personalities.
Keep it coming, Tyrone. We need the rational perspectives of more black men on this bloated, bigoted blog.
Nick| 5.23.10 @ 5:57PM
Do all anti-Christian bigots have the same strange opinions as Hank?
Nick| 5.23.10 @ 5:55PM
Mr. Purvis,
Again, you have no rebuttal to my facts.
I am a Roman Catholic, by the way. I don't hate anyone. The KKK hated you and me, both.
Africans were enslaved, for the most part, by other Africans and Arab Moslems, and sold to others. Islam has no problem with slavery.
I'm not going anywhere, Mr. Purvis. And I will continue to spread Truth of Christ here on TAS as long as I like.
Tyrone Purvis| 5.23.10 @ 8:34PM
No rebuttal to your "facts"? Man, what are you talking about.
Instead of stating facts you have engaged in obfuscation. That's all.
I will ask you one more time: is the advice in the verse below relevant to our time? Answer yes or no.
Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."
"he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two" If the slave gets up after a day or two! Not to be punished!
Nick, do you believe, after reading the above, that the God of the Olde Testament is a loving, merciful God? Please answer yes or no, and please do not obfuscate.
jk rowling| 5.23.10 @ 8:43PM
tyrone don't waste your time on this close-minded man.
he's not gonna say that anything in the bible is not relevant to our times.
and he won't say that the god of the old testament is mean, cruel and angry and often behaves like a spoiled child.
your words are wasted on this blog. as a black man, what are you doing here anyway. amspec is for old white guys. the only reason i'm here--i'm black too-- is to learn about african christianity, and i don't like what i'm reading. these africans will take up machetes and hack to death anyone who disputes their beliefs. they do it frequently. you can read all about their massacres in the london telegraph.
Ryan| 5.24.10 @ 9:39AM
God is merciful. He is also Just, Righteous, Jealous, Good, and Above All.
Slavery in Israel occurred. The Bible never attaches "good" or "bad" to it - it simply isn't explicitly there. It's also both different from what was practiced in the late 1800s and from many other times - in fact, the era in which we live is one of the first where slavery is almost universally considered uncivilized. The world has changed.
Yes, up until after the Civil War, it was improperly used as justification by Christians (?) who wanted to keep their slaves.
If your opinion comes from just from the left, anti-Biblical side, then I wonder if you are really being intellectually honest. There is more Biblical scholarship that you should consider than what the left offers - almost 2000 years' worth.
Another problem is that you're projecting the sins of 50 or so years ago onto the present generation, as if we haven't seen the error of those ways. From this side, it appears that Racism is now merely a cry from the left that cannot fathom that the right has legitimate arguments, and everything we speak must come from some desire to oppress rather than free.
Nick| 5.24.10 @ 1:33PM
Mr. Purvis,
"I will ask you one more time: is the advice in the verse below relevant to our time? Answer yes or no."
I have answered YES, below, when I gave TWO specific reasons why that verse of Scripture is relevant today. Do I need to repeat them? Do you know what the word "obfuscate" means?
To your second question the answer is: YES!
The God of the Old Testament is the SAME God of the New Testament. The same Triune God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit who created the universe.
He is a loving and merciful God, "Who so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son: that whosoever believes in him may not perish, but may have life everlasting"
- The Gospel of Saint John 3:16
Is that clear enough for you, Mr. Purvis?
Apparently, you don't understand what Exodus 21: 20-21 is actually saying.
If a master hits his slave with a rod, and the slave dies, then the master is also to be put to death. If the slave lives for a few days, this showed that the intent of the master was not to kill the slave. They didn't have CSI back then.
But, because the master injured the slave, the slave would have been freed, had he or she lived. Again, no other society treated slaves as human beings at that time.
Micha Elyi| 5.22.10 @ 11:24PM
"Ever wonder why God doesn't mention the DINOSAURS when telling of the creation?"
No. But then again I've never confused the Bible for a textbook written in the modern style.
I'm often amused by those who try to use science, an invention of Christians that depends on Christian beliefs for its epistemological basis, to cast doubt upon Christian belief. Pagans who do that are like the new sheriff of Rock Ridge bluffing the crowd by taking himself hostage. Rupert, I call your bluff.
Nick| 5.22.10 @ 11:53PM
Excellent point, Micha Elyi.
Nick| 5.22.10 @ 5:29PM
Mr. Purvis,
The only one being evasive is you. You can't show one error in what I wrote. You just assert it. I'm sorry you are so ignorant of both the Bible and ancient history.
Again, as I stated, the Law of Moses was a radical departure from the laws of other nations at the time.
The law given by God, and later amended by Moses, was primarily written for the Hebrews of that age. It is "relevant" to us, today, because it shows how much He loves us and how we should love each other, as His creation.
Specifically, about slavery, it showed that slaves were human also, not just property to be treated however the master pleased. Again, this set the Hebrews apart from the other peoples of the ancient near east. It shows us today that every human life is worthy of respect.
It is also relevant today, because their is still slavery in some parts of the world. It has not been eliminated.
You can't be liberal/progressive in social issues and fiscally conservative.
Whether you believe it is okay to kill an unborn baby or that you want to engage in perverted sexual acts, these selfish acts will always lead you to justify why it is okay to take others money in taxes. You can't serve two masters.
Punky Flytrap "Missionary Pos"| 5.23.10 @ 2:58PM
Nick and his "significant other" (old lady as he would term it) have never let oral sex cross their minds. Although the majority of married couples now practice oral sex, fallacio and cunnilingus are abominations to old Nicky and his ___________ (fill in the blank).
Old Nicky likes to do it under the sheets in the missionary position with the lights turned off.
Kinky, old-fashioned approach, I say.
Nick| 5.23.10 @ 5:58PM
Go away, pervert.
Bydand76| 5.23.10 @ 6:46AM
Tyrone Purvis.
This is about one of the funniest posts I think I have ever read here on this forum.
So IF by using your logic that one single scripture is proof that the bible condones slavery (which I dont really think it does because you are quoting the verse out of context)
Then it must also therefore be okay to conquer Jerusalem and enslave the Jews! Or polygamy? Or killing Homosexuals?
Starting to understand the point yet Tyrone?
Pro Libertate!
Andrew B| 5.21.10 @ 7:42AM
Ah, is there anything sweeter than liberals twisting themselves into hoops over which minority group is most to be preferred?
The Episcopal Church, my former denomination, is assuming a pretzel shape even as we speak. Gays versus blacks...blacks versus gays. Oh, it is so unfair to have to choose!
I have an idea for my former denomination--how about you take people as they come, one at a time, and judge accordingly. Forget groups and labels and try to get on with God's work.
Nah, too complicated.
Micha Elyi| 5.22.10 @ 11:36PM
The Episcopal Church, my former denomination, is assuming a pretzel shape even as we speak.-Andrew :B
Steering clear of Rome comes at a cost.
I have an idea for my former denomination--how about you take people as they come, one at a time, and judge accordingly. Forget groups and labels and try to get on with God's work.
A universal church? What a concept!
Nah, too complicated.
Not "too complicated," too Catholic. Avoidance of the truth is why the spiritual heirs of Henry VIII have twisted their rationalizations up like pretzels.
Bydand76| 5.23.10 @ 6:49AM
Hmmm yes. I think the Orthodox church (Greek & Russian) might disagree with that to some degree or another.
Eric Rasmusen| 5.21.10 @ 8:06AM
So the United Methodists are like the Roman Catholics--a world church. Are there any others, even small denominations?
It would be interesting to see further breakdown of the voting, both as an indicator of liberalism and of member involvement. Did members have to show up in person, or could they vote by mail? How much fraud was there? What is the ratio of votes to members to attendance in different areas?
Rodney Stark is writing a new book on the mainline churches. You should be in touch with him.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 11:25AM
As a professional in church sociology, I heartily recommend all of Dr. Stark's books. He makes an excellent popular analysis of the reality of what church history and its current situation are.
PJ| 5.21.10 @ 2:08PM
Big Leo,
He's written an excellent book on the Crusades and early Christian history---> both in a positive light! What I find amazing about Prof Stark is that he tries to take an unbiased view on these very biased subjects while at the same time believing in no god. I respect his scholarship.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 4:47PM
I've read all his books. His strongest argument is that he quantifies his claims-- he gets statistical proof that the contentions he makes historically are also true by verifiable factual means. While he is a popularizer, his scholarship is impeccable.
Ryan| 5.21.10 @ 8:18AM
Yet more evidence that the "mainline" churches are becoming more and more hardly churches at all.
If they don't preach the Gospel - that man is a sinner in need of Grace, which is answered by Christ's atoning death, burial, and resurrection - they have fallen away from the true faith.
Diversity is nice and all, but refusing to answer man's greatest need - the answer to sin - is the greatest sin of any denomination (or nondenomination).
Beth| 5.21.10 @ 8:36AM
Good to see that the orthodox believing African branch of Methodism is gaining a foothold in that denomination. I pray for the day when the Methodist Church takes a firm pro-life stance. If the African church becomes a majority, that may well happen, and on that day I will probably return to the Methodist Church.
Harry the Horrible| 5.21.10 @ 9:15AM
Someday, the African Church may save us all.
I know the Ugandan Anglicans saved my father's congregation when the Episcopalians went all weird. They can have their empty churches. My father and most of his congregation left for someone who stands for the Faith.
Teflon93| 5.21.10 @ 9:35AM
What do liberals need Christ for when they have Obama uncrucified?
Guestateria| 5.21.10 @ 2:40PM
Teflon93, you are one of the ones Rebecca T. of NYC is referring to in her above post.
Nothing clever or amusing about your post. You're just another AmSpec Obama hater.
Mark| 5.22.10 @ 9:21AM
Oh, come on, Guestateria. Please buy a sense of humor. That was funny! My father always told me, "Never trust anyone without a sense of humor." I would add, "especially those who can't laugh at themselves.
AMPisAnglican| 5.21.10 @ 10:34AM
Matthew 3:10
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 7:15-19
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Matthew 12:33
Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
Perhaps the Episcopal Church USA (TEC) is one fo these trees.
Seek| 5.21.10 @ 11:32AM
Whether or not Ugandans have a clearer understanding of homosexuality than we do misses the larger point: I don't want these people coming to the U.S. via immigration visas. Uganda is a country from the start wracked by civil war, poverty, illiteracy and massacres of civilian populations. A paramilitary religious group, the Lord's Resistance Army, is responsible for much of the carnage.
Black Christian fundamentalism -- the worst of two world rolled into one.
Pat| 5.21.10 @ 12:37PM
The Shakers of America's colonial era practiced religious celibacy which is why we see no Shaker Churchs today, either international or domestic. Today, Mainline Protestant faiths practice a form of mental celibacy - their numbers are declining both in terms of total membership but, more importantly, in the ratio of older members to younger members. The Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Congregationalists - and the Methodists - are witnessing the same phenomena with almost identical numbers reporting a steadily increasing average age of church members approaching 50.
How to explain the absence of young faces within their congregations? These so-called Mainline Protestant sects, once numerical giants dominating America's various religious faiths, have certainly recognized this gradual change in member demographics but refuse to acknowledge any reason to question their liberal religious tenets or practices. We remember the Shakers today for their strongly held beliefs as well as for their skill in crafting fine furniture - by what will we remember our American Anglicans, Lutherans, Presbyterians and Methodists in the future?
Troll Watch| 5.21.10 @ 12:39PM
I am not advocating immigration from anywhere but the worst in the world for carnage has been atheism. The numbers of murders is so staggering that you have to go back to India between 1000 and 1500 AD to even get in the ballpark. Those were Muslims doing the killing. Death toll from Communism was approximately 100 million people. Then we get Nazism which was impressive in the short haul. Our own secular society as offed 50 million babies in just the United States since the early 1970's. Those that don't believe in God are a blood thirsty lot. I am not a big fan of Africa but it seems like most of the world's murderers are generally groomed for action in our Western universities. We shouldn't look down our nose at anybody until we clean up our own act.
AMPisAnglican| 5.21.10 @ 1:09PM
Well said Troll Watch. Some quick math indicates that about 1,250,000 babies are murdered each year (in only the USA, add another 125,000 for Canada, and God only knows how many more for Europe). And the reason we are given for this? It's a "woman's choice"! What choice??? To take away someone's entire life so that she can avoid less than one year interruption in her life. What a selfish uncaring lot we have become. May God have mercy! And does anyone recall this:
"Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven".
Micha Elyi| 5.22.10 @ 11:42PM
Those who excuse abortion with "It's a woman's choice!" are practicing gynolatry.
Seek| 5.21.10 @ 1:51PM
Communism's main enemy, has been and always will be, private property; religion is at best a sidebar issue. Anyone familiar with the tenets of Marxism-Leninism knows this. The standard Religious Right trope of Communism as an "atheist holocaust" is designed to lump in all free thinkers, Right or Left, with the crimes of the Stalin regime. The tactic won't work. Commies hate capital (i.e., property) far more than they hate religion.
The idea of Nazism as an "atheist holocaust" likewise is nonsense. Its main organizing princple was racial socialism as the ultimate expression of national will. There were plenty of Nazi religious believers -- Hitler, for one. And there were plenty of Jewish nonbelievers who died at their hands.
Finally, let me point out the obvious: Communism and Nazism killed more people largely because there were more people available to kill. Each was a loony experiment, producing enormous evil and suffering. But their crimes had little to do with a lack of religious piety. The religious, in Ugana and elsewhere, meanwhile, have much to answer for.
Troll Watch| 5.21.10 @ 4:06PM
Atheists always run away from their history. It is amusing to hear them called free thinkers. When they predominate freedom disappears.
Communism killed many because they were atheists and don't believe that their actions have any consequences beyond material gain or loss. It is the same reason that people can defend enabling young women to kill their young for convenience. Again there is much to criticize in Africa but we are not innocent either.
By the way the fact that Communists kill because they believe they have no judge does not say anything about who they kill, one day a secular Jew, the next a Polish Catholic. They murder for convenience.
Nick| 5.21.10 @ 4:13PM
Seek,
"Communism's main enemy, has been and always will be, private property; religion is at best a sidebar issue."
Actually, just the opposite is true.
Bolsheviks always go after the Church and persecute Christians. Without exception.
JS| 5.21.10 @ 1:40PM
My belief is that God will lead the Methodist church out of the dark through the African Methodists. Do you find it ironic that God will use the 'Dark Continent' to lead the 'enlightened' out of the wilderness?
I currently attend a Methodist church that is thriving and growing. I firmly believe this is because our clergy and laity are grounded in scripture. We talk about all the touchy feely stuff, but at the same time we deal with the harder aspects of our faith - ya know, sin. People like Joel Osteen are great motivational speakers, but they are not pastors. He won't preach on sin. If you're going to believe in Christ you can't pick and choose which part of the faith you want to believe in.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 5:43PM
Your experience with your congregation is typical. All of the United Methodist churches I served grew because I was serious about the whole faith, not just the sub-church of whatever was popular among the chattering classes.
Joe| 5.21.10 @ 2:00PM
What I find appalling from, Miss Alabama, the gay is her ignorance of the Bible especially, Leviticus 17, Romans 1 and I Corinthians. God is not a HOMOPHOB. Nor are True Christians who follow all of his teaching in the Bible. I hope you wake up to your sin before it is too late. This is not hate that we stand for the truth, but love of you and others like you.
We want to help you through your sin and challenge. It must not be easy dealing this this sin or yourself and others would not fight so much to destroy others who preach the true about your sin. I will pray for you.
Nick| 5.21.10 @ 4:00PM
Miss Alabama,
"You can despise gay people all you like, but they will prevail in the end."
That has to be the worst pun I have seen in sometime! Ha-ha!
Troll Watch| 5.21.10 @ 4:10PM
By that reading I believe Miss Alabama is right although it will be a sad end.
Punky Flytrap| 5.21.10 @ 4:39PM
You recognize a pun because you have a "dirty" mind.
As a sexology major at Humboldt University in Berlin, I can assure you that our studies reveal the realities of current sexual practices, and homosexuals and a surprisingly large number of heterosexuals practice anal sex. And almost all heterosexuals perform oral sex. And by the way, a large percentage of gays practice oral sex only.
Not all gays, by any means, have a taste for anal sex.
Both practices are by Biblical standards . . . abominations. And it is very likely that you and other readers of American Spectator have performed at least one of these sexual techniques.
And from your primitive perspective, I guess you think you have committeed an abomination.
Time to repent.
Nick| 5.21.10 @ 6:09PM
We all need to repent. We are all sinners.
So, what is your disgusting point?
That straight people can also be perverts?
REALLY? STOP THE PRESSES!
You have discovered something that has been known for....I don't know......the past 4,000 years!
JohnK| 5.21.10 @ 6:26PM
"As a sexology major at Humboldt University in Berlin"
A "sexology major?" Oh, now there's a major that will be useful to the advancement of humankind.
Ok, so maybe not.
Troll Watch| 5.21.10 @ 7:32PM
"As a sexology major at Humboldt University in Berlin... "
Western universities sure give us a lot to be proud. They are documenting the number of people who are confused about what their anuses are for. It seems that Mr. Flytrap thinks that using it for its intended purpose is primitive while the enlightened come to a bad end following his ideas of sophistication. Yikes. This is typical of lefties. They call good evil and evil good.
Ozzlefinch| 5.22.10 @ 9:04AM
TMI
Punky Flytrap, there are things better unsaid.
Nick| 5.21.10 @ 4:18PM
Miss Alabama,
How can you call yourself a Christian, and at the same time denounce the Bible?
Do you belong to Christians Against Christ?
Miss Alabama| 5.21.10 @ 4:51PM
Many good people have made the effort to seal off the Bible's humane inspiration from the brutal intolerance and hatred.
Thomas Jefferson--yes, the Great American, Thomas Jefferson!-- compiled his own New Testament, with the ethical teachings left in and the miracles and hateful damnations left out. You did not know that, did you?
There is an ugly duplicity inherent in Christianity. Deal with it.
Peace be with you . . .
Nick| 5.21.10 @ 6:02PM
Miss Alabama,
Thomas Jefferson wasn't that great of an American, precisely because he bought into the so-called Enlightenment claptrap, at certain times in his life.
"Many good people [...]."
No there aren't. They do the work of Satan.
"There is an ugly duplicity inherent in Christianity."
So, you are a member of Christians Against Christ. Or, a neo-pagan, if you will.
The only duplicity I see here, is coming from you. You can't reconcile the faith you grew up in with the vile, disordered acts your homo son commits.
Instead of embracing Christ, you have chosen to embrace Satan.
I will pray for you.
God Bless!
Hank| 5.21.10 @ 10:07PM
As a regular reader of AmSpec, I am surprised at the similarity of the wordings of some of the posts.
Nick, you and Margie have the same voice, same syntax, same trite observations. I believe that you and Margie (a religious crackpot) are the same.
As for saying that Miss Alabama--a reasonable woman who states an opinion antithetical to yours-- has "embraced Satan" is a bit crackpot. Sounds like Margie talking to me.
Margie, is that you? Don't forget to take your Librium before you go to bed. You don't want to hear those "voices" all night long.
Nick| 5.22.10 @ 12:49AM
Hank,
Thanks for the analysis, Dr. Freud.
You keep thinking that, Hank.
Just don't ask me anything about New Jersey!
How have you heard my voice on a website, by the way?
Troll Watch| 5.22.10 @ 9:17AM
When a progressive accuses you of something they are usually doing it themselves. Margie and Nick are obviously distinct. Hank however has a familiar bad smell.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 5:49PM
Nick -- Miss Alabama is a member of that large and fashionable church, the First Church of Wheritzat. This is the church of whatever social ideas are fashionable at the time among the chattering classes. It is in decline everywhere, but not as quickly as we might wish.
Nick| 5.21.10 @ 6:13PM
Big Leo,
One thing is for sure, she has rejected Christianity.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 4:44PM
Exactly what is progressive and mature about promoting sexual behavior that is most commonly practiced around the age of 12 or 13? What is compassionate about encouraging a life choice that apparently shortens life by about fifteen years?
Punky Flytrap| 5.21.10 @ 4:53PM
"shortens life by about fifteen years"
Source, please.
Nonsence.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 5:46PM
There is no large statistical study on age of death correlated to sexual orientation. However, one researcher did determine that the average age of persons whose obituaries were reported in gay journals was fifteen years lower than the average. More research is needed on the subject, but the only information available at this time points to a serious age at death gap.
Jeffrey| 5.21.10 @ 5:19PM
Mixing religion and politics - dangerous business - to say the least.
Still I'm heartened despite all the infighting that the Christian church is at least growing in one part of the world, Africa.
When I visited the U.K. last, I was truly saddened to see so many beautiful churches no longer holding services. One had been turned into a community center. Another actually had a bar in it. A pretty cool looking bar, but sad all the same. It felt as if Christianity was dying in the U.K.
I sometimes feel the same is occurring here. On reading through the comments here, the level of anger is not a good sign. As Christians we need to keep our tempers, tongues, & in the modern age our fingers under control. No one has ever become one in the faith while also being beaten.
I'd encourage you to read "No Perfect People Allowed: Creating a Come-as-You-Are Culture in the Church" by John Burke. He preaches in the Austin area where over 60% of the population never attended church growing up.
Christianity is on the decline here. If you're interesting in reversing that, please open your heart and use your noodle.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 5:47PM
Christianity is in decline virtually everywhere that the liberal church is influential. Christianity is doing quite well and growing in denominations that the Scriptures and the orthodox teachings of Christianity are taught. It would be more accurate to say that weak, fashionable Christianity is declining and robust, orthodox Christianity is growing.
Big Leo| 5.21.10 @ 7:51PM
Substitute Judaism for Christianity, and you have just described the situation in that faith quite accurately as well.
Phil Kearny| 5.21.10 @ 11:19PM
Many of the comments left here are self-serving and miss the point completely. As a life-long Methodist, I can assure all of you that the arguments Tooley makes and the trends he cites are happening. Our congregation--in a thirving suburb of a major city--is slowly withering. The church is still large but I predict it won't be in another decade. Meanwhile, the growing number of nearby nondenominational churches--most of which are fundimental in liturgy and outlook--are thriving. I've wondered with my fellow Methodists about why this is and I've come to the conclusion that our liberal theology increasingly blurrs into popular culture and so offers nothing for God's people. The Bible calls us all to be closer to God and be better than we are now - our theology mostly calls us to be comfortable and tolerent. a nice idea but in the end where does the tolerence end? Acccpt gays? OK. Accept adulterers? OK. Accept those who reject Christ's divinity for the folksy philosopher? OK. but now we're nothing. That's why the liberal churches are dying. And if the influsion of African devotion can save us - I'm all for it.
Big Leo| 5.22.10 @ 12:25AM
Get in touch with the Good News movement and Toomey's Institute for Religion and Democracy. They are the forces for orthodox renewal in the church.
Big Leo| 5.22.10 @ 12:25AM
Get in touch with the Good News movement and Toomey's Institute for Religion and Democracy. They are the forces for orthodox renewal in the church.
a loving conservative| 5.22.10 @ 11:50AM
I have a question for all of you "tolerant" people who think it is OK to hate people who think that any sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin, even if in their individual relationships with all peoples of all sexual persuasions they exhibit love. Don't you "tolerant" people also have your ideas of sexual morality? For instance, what about public nudity, public sex, sex with people once they reach the natural sexual age of puberty, the right to pologamy, prostitution, golden showers, S&M, bondage, and other forms of sexual activity that are consensual? These acts are not only disapproved of by Western society, they are also often deemed criminal acts and people exercising some of these acts are imprisoned. Should all of these sexual forms be taught in the schools too so that children don't grow up hating the practitioners of these forms of sexual expression? If you pretend to be tolerant of all forms of sexual expression but you also have your own sexual morality, then aren't you hypocrites and your hate of people who think that homosexual acts are sin bigotry?
Yosemeti Sam| 5.22.10 @ 12:41PM
" ... The U.S. Episcopal Church, of course, has been prominently roiled by controversy since its 2003 election of an openly homosexual bishop, now joined by a newly elected openly lesbian bishop...."
Read the Bible: King James version, good for some 3 centuries: and the word for the U.S. Episcopal Church and like-minded 'enlightened'
practice is - abomination!
James Solbakken| 5.22.10 @ 4:29PM
Hey Dummies!!!
Jesus Christ does not need you; He may love you, He may want you, but He does not need you for squat...dig?
When He stands at your door and knocks, you better open up unto Him while He is there; seek Him while He may be found, call on Him while He is near. HE WILL NOT KNOCK FOREVER!!!
Richard Baker| 5.22.10 @ 7:33PM
Romans and Leviticus say it all on this subject.
Greg| 5.22.10 @ 9:30PM
Great article! I did not know this about the United Methodist church. I attend a PCUSA church. I wish that more theologically conservative African and Asian Presbyterians were numbered with and could vote against the liberal PCUSA establishment.
Petronius| 5.24.10 @ 9:25AM
The damn fudgepackers can squeal about their right to social acceptance but the fundies are justified for the simple reason that they object to getting handed the bill for the results of deviant sexual behavior from STD's to sex change operations. The only thing that makes a person civilized is self control. Try it sometime!
Jacob| 5.24.10 @ 12:04PM
There's a lot of hate coming from both sides.
The left seems culturally suicidal to me so I am by far more on the side of pro-life.
I think though that we should try to remember that people are more likely to hear our arguments if we don't engage in the hating ourselves.
People who identify as homosexual are children of God loved every bit as much as the rest of us sinners. Attempting to demonize them gives ammo to lefties who call social traditionalists names like "fundie" or "theocon". That doesn't make what they're doing ok, but this dynamic is still very affective in swaying people who aren't sure whether or not they should support the sex/death culture.
Jacob| 5.24.10 @ 12:08PM
I just wanted to add that I think it's extremely unfortunate when people shut down the dialogue either by using derogative words for gays or suggesting that anyone who disagrees is racist.
I'm 25 and I'm mixed race but I'm always made to feel I'm a "racist misogynist old white guy" simply because I happen to be socially conservative.
a loving conservative| 5.24.10 @ 12:09PM
Because no one responded to my previous email, it is reposted. All you narrow minded bigots out there, please respond to my question below. And let me add that I, as a public school teacher, was the refuge classroom for all the persecuted gays on campus.
a loving conservative| 5.22.10 @ 11:50AM
I have a question for all of you "tolerant" people who think it is OK to hate people who think that any sex outside of marriage between a man and a woman is sin, even if in their individual relationships with all peoples of all sexual persuasions they exhibit love. Don't you "tolerant" people also have your ideas of sexual morality? For instance, what about public nudity, public sex, sex with people once they reach the natural sexual age of puberty, the right to pologamy, prostitution, golden showers, S&M, bondage, and other forms of sexual activity that are consensual? These acts are not only disapproved of by Western society, they are also often deemed criminal acts and people exercising some of these acts are imprisoned. Should all of these sexual forms be taught in the schools too so that children don't grow up hating the practitioners of these forms of sexual expression? If you pretend to be tolerant of all forms of sexual expression but you also have your own sexual morality, then aren't you hypocrites and your hate of people who think that homosexual acts are sin bigotry?
Dupin| 5.25.10 @ 1:23PM
Interesting,
Miss Alabama makes a blanket statement (God considers homosexuals equal to heterosexuals) and offers no proof for her statement. She also informs us that homosexuals are born that way, but again offers no proof for her statement. But that is the usual liberal way, offer fell-good "truths" which have no support in either reality or scripture and demand we accept them.
And they call us stupid!
djdu| 7.1.10 @ 3:20AM
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Eufems| 12.22.10 @ 10:05PM
It is certain and very much obvious that God loves us all, homosexual or heterosexual, American or African or Asian, liberal or conservative.
However, for God, sin is still a sin. That's why He sent His Son to us, to save us from sin.
And as far as the Bible is concerned, homosexuality is a sin. And as far as Genesis is concerned, humans are created as 'man and woman'.
Does this call for persecution for gays? No. We are in an increasingly secular world, and outside the church, gays have and ought to have rights as human beings. But inside the Church, God's Word is the rules; we'll have to follow them.
We let gays in, but by the grace of God, make them realize that unfortunately for them, homosexuality is a sin. Same thing with other sinners, no matter what orientation they may have.
Africa, Asia, let's continue sharing God's Word. If homosexuality for many is a little blurred, God is extremely clear on 'Go and make disciples of all nations.'