Special Report
The Future’s Shadow
In one more anticipation of things to come, Obama’s HHS begins a program to harvest organs from patients in emergency rooms.
Often the politicians who talk about health care the most believe in the Hippocratic Oath the least. Barack Obama falls into this category. He promises that his health care plan will protect the weak and vulnerable. This would be a little bit more credible if his policies weren’t already killing and exploiting them.
He considers aborting unborn children “health care,” has authorized the use of tax dollars for the exploitation of embryos in lab experiments, and his Department of Health and Human Services is now pushing the grotesque practice of harvesting organs from urgent-care patients in emergency rooms.
According to the Washington Post, taxpayers are now financing, via a $321,000 HHS grant, a pilot program at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center-Presbyterian Hospital and Allegheny General Hospital in Pittsburgh to obtain organs from emergency room patients, a practice heretofore “considered off-limits in the United States because of ethical and logistical concerns.”
The goal of the project, reports the paper, is to “investigate whether it is feasible and, if so, to encourage other hospitals nationwide to follow.”
The article is somewhat obtuse about the longstanding moral problem at the center of organ transplantation, which is that the donors aren’t actually dead. It seems to accept uncritically the bogus definitions of death as “brain death” and “cardiac death” that the medical community uses to take organs from the dying but not dead. (Organs from cadavers are useless, so the medical community had to come up with the convenient lies of death as “brain death” and “cardiac death” to pluck usable organs from the living.)
Still, the subtext of the article is that bringing transplant teams into emergency rooms marks a new low for society: “Critics say the program represents a troubling attempt to bring a questionable form of organ procurement into an even more ethically dicey situation: the tumultuous environment of an ER, where more than ever it raises the specter of doctors preying on dying patients for their organs.”
Even liberal-leaning bioethicists find this practice unseemly. “There’s a fine line between methods that are pioneering and methods that are predatory,” the Post quotes bioethicist Leslie M. Whetstine. “This seems to be in the latter category. It’s ghoulish.”
They fear that doctors will increasingly give patients less care, seeing them as organ donors rather than patients, and in the haste of removing the organs transplant teams won’t bother to investigate “consent” too carefully (that is, did the person really give “informed” consent? Or did they just superficially sign off on a driver’s license designation?) ”Imagine you have a 20-year-old inner-city kid who gets shot. Twenty minutes later, a family member comes in and says, ‘What happened?’ They’re told, ‘We tried to save him but couldn’t, and he had an organ donor card so we took an organ,” the Post quotes University of Pennsylvania bioethicist Arthur Caplan. “You can imagine they’re going to think, ‘Did you really do everything you could to save him?’”
Bioethicist Michael Grodin is quoted as saying: “When you do this stuff in such close proximity to treating the patient, the people in the emergency room will quickly start to think, ‘This is a potential organ donor’ even when they are treating the patient…People are going to wonder, if they are being treated in the ER, ‘Are the transplant people going to swoop down to get my organs?’”
But for the proponents of this program, taking organs from the dying in an emergency room is no different than taking organs from the near-dead in other parts of the hospital, which is what already happens, as the story acknowledges: “In the United States, the practice known as ‘donation after cardiac death,’ or DCD, is being done only on patients in the intensive-care unit or other parts of the hospital for whom the possibility of death has been long anticipated, and there has been time to methodically assess their condition and make sure family members are comfortable with the decision.”
In other words, it is just more efficient to do it in the emergency room and provides an enormous new opportunity for organ procurement. The proponents offer the usual assurances of “firewalls” and “protections,” and they promise to take organs only from the “clinically dead,” but all of this claptrap only serves to expose the problems with the existing criteria of death, as the article suggests: “Some critics question whether patients pronounced dead in the emergency room meet the official criteria for organ donation, or whether there are enough safeguards in place in case someone pronounced dead unexpectedly revives, which can happen, though very rarely.”
Being “pronounced dead” and actually dead are two different things when the definition of “death” is brain death and cardiac death, and the article raises the possibility that even those elastic definitions of death won’t be respected. As Whetstine asks, “Are such patients really dead after resuscitation efforts end and after a time interval of two minutes of cessation of circulation elapses?”
The article says the new practice “could backfire by making an already skeptical public less likely to designate themselves as organ donors, several experts said.” That is, if it draws more attention to the phoniness and crass utilitarianism built into existing death criteria for most organ transplantation. But that’s a big if. This discussion is so mired in euphemism and imprecision that most people don’t even know what organ donation entails, and a utilitarian medical culture hungry for usable organs doesn’t mind leaving them in that ignorance.
This practice is new in location but not principle. Nevertheless, it is a grim accomplishment for the Obama administration, and the article mentions another: it has “restarted” a “federally funded DCD pilot project” in Colorado that takes “hearts from babies 75 seconds after” they are taken off life support.
Americans have been bombarded with the propaganda that Obamacare will protect the weak from the strong. But the Brave New World philosophy beneath it, which comes to the surface in programs like these, guarantees that the most vulnerable will be exploited by the strong, with the federal government’s full approval.
About the Author
George Neumayr, a contributing editor to The American Spectator, is co-author, with Phyllis Schlafly, of the new book, No Higher Power: Obama’s War on Religious Freedom.
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Tenn Slim| 3.18.10 @ 7:06AM
Opine
QUOTE the Brave New World philosophy beneath it, which comes to the surface in programs like these, guarantees that the most vulnerable will be exploited by the strong, with the federal government's full approval. Un Quote
Well. As a Senior, this just makes my day. Already in fear of being "Medically rationed due to age, state of health etc", now I have to be concerned about losing my liver, while I am sleeping. I sleep pretty D... sound. A heart attack for one of Old Geezers is a near death experience every time.
SO. Write my rep, nah, he doesnt listen. Write the Oval office, my email is full of thier BS. Canada, nah, too cold. Australia. Well now there is possbily a haven.
Being older, less healthy, poorer, un educated, un informed, gullible, willing and eager to listen to BS Rhetoric, what a Wonderful Country we have.
FOLKS. Time to smell the roses. We have drunk the OBNA Kool Aid, and like the Isrealites Well of Bitterness it is beginning to gag even our Liberal Friends.
WE WILL PREVAIL
Semper FI
end
PJ| 3.18.10 @ 8:53AM
Tenn Slim,
Not Australia. Heard they have socialized medicine too.
If you're as old as you say you are, I don't think they would want your organs. I think they're looking for the young, healthy ones.
Which begs the question: should I start pickling mine with more liquor?
Alan Brooks| 3.18.10 @ 6:52PM
"WE WILL PREVAIL"
No, you will NOT prevail-- and all the Semper Fis in the world wont help-- social progress is finished. which means an unceasingly dull "healthcare" (or lack thereof) debate. A childish debate; and that includes Palin and the deathsquad medical-rationing silliness. It's a lot of stale boilerplate that doesn't work anymore towards its goal of tricking gullible people. There are not enough naive people left to trick.
I am voting for Obama (and if you don't like it, stick it where the Sun don't shine) because of the rightwing paranoid jazz that would make an otherwise sensible person such as Palin think Rahm Emanuel is in some remote way out to diss Trig because Trig has Down Syndrome (!) and Rahm used the 'R' word (you can use the 'N' word in rap music, but not the 'R' word).
I think Trig has more common sense than his Mom, he wouldn't say something so babyish, so infantile as his mom did. So I wont vote for Palin, even if she runs 3rd party in '12 and or '16. Dumb luck my friends, wont suck me in this time (that's a song from 'Countdown To Ecstasy', know which one?)
Janie| 3.18.10 @ 7:56PM
You need electro-shock therapy badly. I'll volunteer to administer it if it would shut you up!
JimE| 3.18.10 @ 8:28PM
Brooks,
You had better hope obama's scam care includes mental health treatment, you need it retard.
Jay | 3.18.10 @ 8:39PM
A. Brooks,
Why are you so afraid of Palin? This article has nothing to do with Palin and you have to bring it up. Which shows you are a leftwing paranoid jaz and nothing more. I am a ER doctor and I can tell your organs are not fit for anybody.
Go ahead and vote for Nobama( he is still campaigning), you will be in the minority. As for me, whoever the liberals/left hate the most that will be the person I will vote for. You know who, don't you?
Bruce | 3.19.10 @ 11:08AM
Why are you here, Brooks? Seriously. You are opposed or on the other side of virtually EVERY topic discussed here, so exactly WHY are you here?
One could surmise your reasoning is you simply wish to interfere with any discussion that piques your left wing, Marxist agenda. Obviously you are not here to rationally discuss issues - koolaid drinkers are incapable of rational thought in the first place.
Why don't you be a nice boy and stumble back to the Kos Kids or Move On where you fit in. Nobody here cares what you think (if one could call it that).
alyeska| 3.22.10 @ 1:45AM
you flatter yourself; nobody wants a "senior" liver.
NO TROLLS!| 3.22.10 @ 6:13PM
And no one wants your stinkin' troll ass here, either. GO!
Louis Jenkins| 3.18.10 @ 7:08AM
About the only thing Pretender n Chief Health Care won't take from us is our souls. But then the Obamatrons have already given theirs, so maybe there will be enough to go around for a decade or so. If there is no compunction towards abortion there certainly will be no qualms in ripping out Uncle George's liver, eyes, heart, lungs, kidneys, bones, etc. Unfortunately, in an emergency the organ harvesting team may not get Uncle George's full history. They may not find out that he enjoyed IV drug use as a youngster, drank until he was 50, and practiced unprotected sex. I am pro-choice when it comes to organ donation! I have the right to privacy! Get the Federal Government out of my body! They have right to tell me what to do with it or its parts. I wish to go to my grave with all of my organs, not that anyone would want them, whereas, my spouse believes in organ donation. Too bad I'll be dead and unable to contest the issue.
Bruce | 3.18.10 @ 1:00PM
Every adult over the age of 21 should have a Living Will and a Health Care Proxy made up, specifying exactly what you want done (or NOT done) should you be hospitalized. Your primary care doctor/s should have a copy in your file, you should have a copy for the hospital, and if possible carry one with you at all times like I do. That way nobody can over-ride your desires should the worst happen -including a spouse. What happens to your treatment and your body is your decision - not a doctor, not a hospital. Make SURE - before you are treated or sent for surgery - that the attending physician is aware of your document and has a copy on hand. Don't take anything for granted.
PJ| 3.18.10 @ 3:30PM
Your idea works to a point. You would be surprised how many people change their minds at the last minute when confronted w/death. The will to live in most human beings is quite strong.
Missy| 3.18.10 @ 10:35PM
Hey, Bruce, wonder if you change your mind after you become ill and are UNABLE to communicate it to your doctor?
Tough toasties for you!
Radegunda| 3.19.10 @ 1:00AM
I think the point of Bruce's post was that one should make it very clear if one does NOT want to be finished off prematurely. Are you suggesting it would be tragic if he decided he wanted the plug pulled and wasn't able to say so?
Missy| 3.19.10 @ 1:43AM
No, quite the opposite: I don't think any one should leave their fate up to a piece of paper, the contents of which were decided BEFORE he/she became ill.
Would it help you if I wrote it s.l.o.w.e.r. next time?
alyeska| 3.22.10 @ 1:50AM
absolutely agree -- i want all my medical decisions made for me by rick santorum.
Janice| 3.22.10 @ 6:12PM
Better than the blue lipped Grim Reaper, Barack Obama! Infanticide anyone?
Bruce | 3.19.10 @ 11:13AM
How about taking a course in Reading Comprehension, Missy. How anyone could arrive at the conclusions you make from my post is beyond my ability to comprehend.
The POINT - if you are able to understand plain English - is you have written instructions for just that reason - you are incapable of transmitting your desires to doctors. Is that a difficult concept for you? You also have a copy with your spouse or other family member, another with your personal physician, and yet another with the hospital itself.
PJ - I have been in such a position a number of times already. I am well aware of the instinct to fight and survive - it has kept me alive more times than you could imagine.
Missy| 3.19.10 @ 3:34PM
I stand by my point: Your wishes expressed in a Living Will detailing your choice of end of life care --before you get ill--could change after you become ill.
I want my family to fight for my life--I'd rather trust them than a piece of paper I filled out when I was well. The creep, Michael Schiavo, used a living will to have Terri killed--against the wishes of her family, the people who really loved her.
It's fine if you're comfortable with a Living Will--I'm not.
KyMouse| 3.19.10 @ 12:25PM
Bruce, instead of a Living Will, I prefer the Will to Live that is available at www.nrlc.org (the National Right to Life Committee). People write Living Wills so that they won't be kept alive against their will, but the real question is whether they will be killed against their will. A traditional Living Will takes control from the patient and transfers it to the doctor, while absolving the doctor from legal responsibility for your premature death.
Living Wills use terminology whose meanings can be changed by state legislatures or simply have vague meanings. For example, "medically and surgically implanted tubes" could simply mean an IV in your arm. And the "attending physician" isn't likely to be your family physician, but rather physician assigned to your case, who may be a total stranger.
The elderly mother of a friend of my had specified that she didn't want to be kept alive by "artificially" administered food and water. They obeyed her written wishes, even when she later begged for a drink, and she died in agony.
Be very careful about any such documents that you sign. The days of being "forced" to receive medical care are long gone; today, hospitals are delighted to have your written approval to withhold as much medical care as possible. And under Obamacare, it will only get worse.
Missy| 3.19.10 @ 3:38PM
Thank you for your eloquent and informative post, KyMouse.
You're spot on.
Kenny| 3.18.10 @ 7:13AM
Once abortion became legal and accepted by America -- or accepted at least the elite of the country -- all thease other ghoulish abuses follow naturally.
Darin| 3.18.10 @ 7:34AM
And the slippery road continues.
The "right to die" is slowly becoming the "responsibility to die." Soon it will be the "requirement to die." Sadly, life has become a 4-letter word.
Evelyn M.| 3.18.10 @ 8:06AM
I've made it crystal clear to my doctor that I support physician-assisted suicide in the event that I develop a terminal, painful condition.
And one more thing: Thousands of nursing home patients in vegetative states are being fed by feeding tubes inserted into their stomachs. I say, "Remove the tubes now, and let them die with some dignity."
For God's sake, readers: There comes a time when you have to die, and there comes a time when you SHOULD die! So there! Get over it!
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 8:19AM
Evelyn M.,
Satan could not have said it better himself.
You sound like you're in a terminal condition right now. Terminal Stupidity. So, what are you waiting for. Take one for the team.
Food is not MEDICINE, moron. They also get water. I hope you never die of thirst. It is a horrible war to die.
Alert1211| 3.18.10 @ 8:22AM
That is fine if you want it Evelyn, but the point here is we do want the government harvesting our organs or pulling our feeding tubs out. Take it out of yourself but leave ours alone and let us make the decision.
Freddie Thompson| 3.18.10 @ 8:42AM
Evelyn M. says patients in "vegetative states" should have the feeding tubes removed.
Surely you do not want your "life" in a vegetative state extended, do you?
Let's try to be a little more rational on end-of-life issues. Some of you commenters are so reactionary in your thinking and hysteric in your expression.
Martha Gooden| 3.18.10 @ 8:47AM
Mr. Thompson, you're wasting your breath.
As a long-time reader of American Spectator, I see evidence of a dumbing down of the readership. And so many readers are expressing themselves in shrill, angry tones.
Unfortunatley, this blog has become a very unpleasant read.
Bruce | 3.18.10 @ 1:04PM
So what are you doing here, martha, if you find it so unpleasant.
What I find unpleasant is people with attitudes like your that you are smarter, more intelligent, that anyone else. Everyone is "dumb" except you. Sounds like a typical liberal.
Move On over to Daily Kos with your own kind, why don't you?
MTB| 3.18.10 @ 1:21PM
Good, then I'll say good-bye and wish you well as I don't expect to see you on this "very unpleasant . . . " blog, again.
Alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 8:51AM
That is not the point Fred. The issue is do you want your feeding tube removed by the government, or do you want it left up to individuals and family members.
There are many people who believe it is wrong to assist in any way in the death of another person. Let them have their beliefs and mind your own damn business.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 9:14AM
Alert,
That is a nice libertarian notion, but it is still immoral.
Food and water are necessities of life. They are not the same as a ventilator or other artificial means used to keep people alive.
Unplugging a ventilator is a perfectly moral choice.
Denying someone air, who can breath on their own, is murder. So is denying them water and food.
No one has the right to do that. It is not a matter of belief.
Alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 9:41AM
Nick,
You missed my point. I'm not arguing for a libertarian position. I'm criticizing those who think we should pull the plug or tube on people who are supposedly dying. My point was leave them alone. If they think life is precious (as I do) then do not force them to terminate a life against their will, which appears to be what Evelyn and Fred are saying. I'm not saying let anybody do what they want to a supposedly dying person.
Do you want the feeding tube (which was the original question by Evelyn) removed by someone like Evelyn? Do you even want them deciding to take your mother off a ventilator or another artificial means to keep people alive? I think you would agree they should not. They need to mind their own damn business and keep their hands off my plugs and tubes.
Freddie Thompson| 3.18.10 @ 9:52AM
Alert1201,
I suppose you relish the thought of living in a vegetative state with a feeding tube inserted into your stomach.
Ever considered quality of life, or is living so important to you that you want to continue " living," unable to move or communicate, attached to a feeding tube? Not to mention the drain on our health care your prolonged vegetative state would cause.
But, as Ms. Gooden suggests, I'm just wasting my breath. Thanks, Ms. Gooden, for pointing out that Am. Spectators' readership is becoming more and more hysterical and vituperative. I totally agree.
Alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 9:57AM
"I suppose you relish the thought of living in a vegetative state with a feeding tube inserted into your stomach."
Talk about hysterical and vituperative talk. Thanks for being the perfect example what you are deploring!
MikeBee| 3.18.10 @ 11:11AM
Fred,
What is it about "responsibility for the decision" that you don't seem to understand? You may be correct; from many of the postings we get here, notably from Copyleft, and 3/5 Bob, and others, there seems to be a severe lack of intellectualism. Please don't join these morons by continuing to miss the point.
The article above reports what is happening right now, that the Obama administration has directed hospitals in the Pittsburgh area to remove organs from patients who, they believe, are dead. They don't have to prove that these patients are dead; they just have to believe that they are. Alert1201 is simply pointing out that the choice to have organs removed, or to terminate one's life, MUST remain with the individual from whom the organs will be taken, or who will has his/her life terminated. If this person cannot communicate, due to their terminal situation, then their loved ones should decide. It is not the job of a doctor or of the Government to make this decision for folks.
While Alert1201's method of communication may be a bit harsh, he/she is communicating this position very clearly. Your bringing up quality of life issues simply obfuscates the issue at hand. NO ONE wants to live life with feeding tubes nourishing him/her, and breathing machines taking breaths for him/her. But the real issue is WHO MAKES THE DECISION? Evelyn M has made her decision. Alert1201 simply wants decisions made by patients, or by loved ones, NOT by doctors or government officials. When doctors and government officials decide, then we are facing a Soylent Green situation.
I believe that it was Shakespeare who said, "Brevity is the soul of wit." It is a great skill of communication to be able to communicate one's ideas briefly. Alert1201 has been gifted with this skill, apparently. You may wish to develop the skill of comprehension a bit if you wish to read here. Some of these folks who post here are quite sharp and incisive. You've got to hold onto the rails to follow them. I'd far rather read the harsher comments of an incisive and sharp commenter than to read the drivel of those who simply don't get the point of what's being said.
Alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 12:35PM
Thanks for stating my position so clearly MB.
I'll work on the harshness of my method of communication since it upsets so many liberal sensibilities.
MTB| 3.18.10 @ 1:28PM
Okay then, like Martha, I wish you well and don't expect to see you back here, again. Why waste your valuable precious time with something so "hysterical and vituperative"? BYE!
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 10:01AM
Alert,
I agree with you that the only one who should make PROPER medical decisions for me, is myself, and my family.
But, as I wrote, feeding tubes are not medicine. They are NECESSITIES. No one can make the decision to remove them. Not my family. Not even myself. It is wrong.
So, we agree that the government should have no role in making PROPER MEDICAL decisions. Yes?
Alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 10:04AM
Agreed! On all points.
See Ms. Goode, people can have civil, decent and profitable discussions.
Martha Gooden| 3.18.10 @ 10:39AM
No, Alert1201, I do not agree that you can have a profitable discussion on here.
I read your remarks, and they are poorly thought out and awkwardly expressed.
Like so many of the other responders, you are wearing mule blinds when it comes to considering the complexity of end-of-life issues.
Anyway, I am signing off, and I do not intend to say anything else on this thread. A total waste of my time . . . and . . . apparently of yours.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 10:43AM
Don't let the virtual door hit you on your rather ample posterior on the way out, Martha!
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 10:45AM
Alert,
Sorry, for the misunderstanding!
Alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 1:05PM
That's not very nice Nick. Snicker, snicker......
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 1:18PM
Alert,
I know, I know.
But, at least I wasn't rude! Ha-ha!
I could've been much cruder.
Duke Alumnus| 3.18.10 @ 2:27PM
When reading some of these posts, I visualize ugly, old geezers, sitting in their boxer shorts with their intestines drooping over the elastic bands.
I see them hunched over their keyboards, saliva drooling frome the corners of their mouths, farting away as they compose their pathetic little gobbets of angry drivel.
You Old Farts keep typing away. Obviously, this is your only amusement, Nick, Alert, MTB, MikeBee and the rest of you pitiful and spiteful, wrinkled old lard buckets.
Why don't you all get together for a sing-a-long of "Dixie." That's about your speed.
alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 2:44PM
"You Old Farts keep typing away. Obviously, this is your only amusement, Nick, Alert, MTB, MikeBee and the rest of you pitiful and spiteful, wrinkled old lard buckets. "
Good argument Duke. Cannot argue with that type of reasoning. You've got me. I'm speechless! How can I dispute such tight terse concise logic?
Like my Great-Gran-daddy use to say, "If you cannot win them with logic bury them with adjectives."
Martha?????? Are you listening to what you fellow liberals are saying????? Smells like people are "expressing themselves in shrill, angry tones."
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 4:54PM
Duke--that you, Liberal Reader? You sound just like the nasty astroturfing SOB.
Loser.
alert1210| 3.18.10 @ 10:49AM
"Like so many of the other responders, you are wearing mule blinds when it comes to considering the complexity of end-of-life issues. "
Tranlsation - "You do not agree with me, therefore you fail to consider the complexity of the issues and you are bind"
OneFor TheGipper| 3.18.10 @ 11:59AM
Hey Martha,
If you want to end your life no one's stopping you. Just keep the hell away from the rest of us!
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 9:22AM
Mr. Thompson,
See my comment to Alert, below.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 9:23AM
Oops!
I guess I should have typed ABOVE.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 3:51PM
Nick--'ample posterior' LOL!!
How did you know?
It's probably Liberal Reader.
Nick| 3.19.10 @ 12:03AM
SoCon,
I was trying to be polite.
Really!
KyMouse| 3.18.10 @ 9:45AM
Human beings don't become vegetables. They remain human beings. The term "vegetative" is insulting, cruel and inaccurate.
Alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 9:48AM
Good point KyMouse. It is also vague and not scientifically defined.
Miss Alabama (1957)| 3.19.10 @ 2:46PM
Not when describing your brain.
NO TROLLS| 3.19.10 @ 3:40PM
Moron.
MTB| 3.18.10 @ 1:23PM
Point is, Freddie, it should be up to the family or the individual him/herself (living will, etc) to make that determination, not the gov't and certainly not overzealous doctors. Doctors should do everything possible to preserve life, only after everything they can do should organ harvesting be considered with the family. Not by gov't edict.
Stephanie| 3.18.10 @ 8:29AM
You starving to death is dying with dignity?
obviously you have never seen someone starve to death. Ain't no dignity there madam. And you have obviously drunk of the Kool aid if you buy into this.
Stephanie| 3.18.10 @ 8:31AM
I meant to say, You THINK starving to death....
Alert1201| 3.18.10 @ 9:53AM
I read an article a while ago when that told of a person who was in a "vegetative" state and had a feeding tube installed w/o anesthesia. Later the family decided to remove the tub and let the man die. After a day or so the he suddenly awoke and describe his experience. During the duration of his "vegetative" state he was fully conscious and said that the pain he experienced from thirst was more painful then getting the feeding tube installed.
MikeBee| 3.18.10 @ 12:28PM
Stephanie,
These same folks who think that starving a person to death is dying with dignity also think that Jack Kevorkian's methods were death with dignity. Dr. Death, as we call him in Michigan, killed a patient in a hotel room one time (not even a very nice hotel) and left her body there to rot. Some dignity.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 3:57PM
What dignity?
It takes TWO WEEKS to die without food and water. After a while, the lips swell, crack and bleed. It is a long, slow and hideous death.
This torment is what Terry Schiavo's "husband" forced on her. Monster. He will answer for his cruelty some day.
People better do some research before they sign living wills--be careful what you wish for, folks. You just might get it!
RIP Sweet Terri.
JamesJ| 3.18.10 @ 8:37AM
Evelyn, who/what is stopping you from offing yourself. Are you just too much a coward to do it yourself?
bob alou| 3.18.10 @ 9:30AM
Well Evelyn I think I speak for most in saying, What are you waiting for?
KyMouse| 3.18.10 @ 9:43AM
I had a relative who want to die "when her time came." She developed lung cancer after smoking for decades, and talked about not wanting to use machines to prolong her life.
Then she learned that she was going to be a grandmother for the first time, and suddenly she wanted very much to keep living. Unfortunately, she died three weeks before the baby was born.
None of us knows what the future holds for us. It's easy to say right now that one would not want thus-and-such, but nursing homes have plenty of people who have found reasons to live longer. Including grandchildren they hadn't anticipated.
pugsley| 3.18.10 @ 11:36AM
Ev hon, starving to death is not dieing with dignity. If you really believe that just skip five days worth of meals and snacks and get back to us. I wonder how long your ilk will take to start calling for the 'Logans Run' solution?
MTB| 3.18.10 @ 1:25PM
Removing someone else's feeding tube is NOT your decision to make, Evelyn, nor is it the govt's. Good for you for making preparations beforehand, as we all should, but neither you nor anyone else who is not a family member or a legal representative of the patient can and/or should decide someone else's level of care.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 1:59PM
MTB,
Feeding tubes and water are NOT medical care. They are necessities of life.
See my posts above.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 3:58PM
You are right, they are essentials.
Bill Hussein O'Stalin| 3.18.10 @ 7:41AM
In essence what the author describes is the first step to Soylent Green.
JJ| 3.18.10 @ 8:00AM
We are wasting our time here. Complaining. The Fox News interview with President Obama shows how meek the rest of the news media is. ABC, CBS, NBC are cheerleaders for Obama and anything he does. As long as he has the media on his side, protecting him, he will continue to get what he wants in the United States. As long as the liberal media runs this country (what a bunch of softies!) we are in big trouble, tea parties and fox news and conservative voices and all. NOTHING HAS CHANGED. NOTHING.
They destroyed Bush and are championing Obama.
Jobe| 3.18.10 @ 8:47AM
JJ you are right, right, right!!! A genuinely free and even relatively unbiased press would have exposed Obama for what he is (a Marxist with delusions of grandeur) in short order. He would not, could not have been elected without the collusion of our "mainstream media". These are the true enemies of the Republic. Obama is just their tool. And, make no mistake about it, he is a "tool".
1FreeMan| 3.18.10 @ 12:02PM
... and who owns the corporate media? AllianceBernstein L.P. owns a giant piece of CBS. Who are they: No one knows. And who pulls the strings at ABC, MSNBC, CNN? Again, it is a quandry. Certainly some managing editor doesn't make the call to go liberal. Some dude or board of dudes makes thew call to lie to Americans and support the lies of this administration. Who, EXACTLY, is making the decision to overthrow the United States? THAT person or persons needs to be exposed. Story idea, American Spectator? Are you there? Hello...
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 8:12AM
Did you see the FOX interview with President Obama last night? links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
maverick muse| 3.18.10 @ 8:29AM
As if all citizens having our DNA, blood and biometrics on national record isn't bad enough. The non-compliant are sent to prison, where organs are harvested as in China, Obama's model for "success".
Idaho is preparing its case for trial against this to-be federal law. In Obama's world, even if Idaho won their case, their precedence would not apply to any other state's complaint.
Why hasn't the "loyal opposition" organized Obama's impeachment yet? Obama ignores Constitutional limits, corrupts his office and the AG office, and Obama orders Congress to pass laws without the protocol; written bill for all to read, debate in committee, debate on the floor, taking and abiding by the constituents' written/oral determination, and VOTE. With President Obama, bills need not be written before voting, need not be read or discussed by Congress or the citizens, and bills need not be given a vote before being signed into law.
The Obama administration is the enemy of the state, the enemy of our Constitutional Government, the enemy of the US citizen. We know it, and require Obama's impeachment with the coming loss of the Democrat majority.
The coming Congress must re-ordain the supremacy of the Constitution in order to defame all of the 20th century's unconstitutional legislation that will be rescinded in order to sustain the basis of the USA after Obama bankrupts America having corrupted our authorities to establish federal socialism.
Curly Smith| 3.18.10 @ 8:43AM
Doctor: "What seems to be the problem?"
Patient: "I sprained my ankle"
Doctor: "Did you vote for Obama?"
Patient: "No"
Doctor: "Nurse, start harvesting the organs, we've got a Brain Death!"
Mattled| 3.18.10 @ 8:46AM
JamesJ,
Spot on---if more Liberals practiced their preaching, there would be less---Liberals.
Hey Evelyn---there's a great bridge in San Francisco for you to exercise your right to "choose".
youfamissim| 3.18.10 @ 9:31AM
"Dying with dignity." Whose dignity? Can death be a dignified experience? I know death. Death is a friend of mine. I walked hand in hand with death for four years watching him take my wife. Each day there a little less of her. Each day I faced our children. They saw it too. Those moments of sadness I kept bundled up - away from them - shielding them as best I could. Stick the coathanger in my mouth and paint a pretty picture. Lying, conniving, deceit developed to a high proficiency; so the children could remain children... for as long as possible. Her weight loss was stunning and the last day before her final hospital stay I carried her around the yard to see the flowers and sunshine. Then we watched the tubes and machines humming along - allegro non tropo... Death stood silently in a corner of the room until the medical team had exhausted their curative satchel. There is no dignity to death. Death is harsh, abrasive, and terrifying. Death mars the souls of the living - permanently. I pity those who to gain acceptance in the club of enlightenment, fancy themselves intellectually superior because they reject the concept of a higher power. Their worth is subdued and jetisoned with their souls when they make this bargain. How else can a human being become so empty, so callous, that they will twist language and moral convention inside out to equate murder to death with dignity?
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.18.10 @ 10:37AM
Youfammism,
Been there, got the tee-shirt. No kids though.
Very moving statement above.
I happen to know I will see her as she is seen, by the Lord one day.
MikeBee| 3.18.10 @ 11:30AM
Youfamissim,
It is not easy to make this man cry. You have managed to do so, as I read your piece. But I have to say: while you may feel that your wife's death contained no dignity, I tell you most assuredly: there was great dignity surrounding her death, because of what YOU chose to do. You took care of her for a long time, and attempted to give your children a normal, happy childhood while this occurred.
You don't know how much your wife enjoyed that stroll outside, before being confined, for the rest of her time, to a hospital bed. It was so incredibly kind of you to take her out there, and to stand by her side through all that she endured. Your compassion has allowed you to touch heaven. In doing so, you are able to touch her now.
I disagree with you: death did not mar your soul. It raised your soul beyond the souls of most.
I honor you. You are truly a great man.
MTB| 3.18.10 @ 1:53PM
Very sorry for your loss and your pain. Thanks for your good words and sharing your story.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 4:01PM
God bless you, sweet sir. May your wife rest in peace.
Life is so short--live it now!
Tim| 3.18.10 @ 9:44AM
"the Post quotes University of Pennsylvania bioethicist Arthur Caplan. "You can imagine they're going to think, 'Did you really do everything you could to save him?'"
Particularly when the hospital will financially benefit by selling the organs and the family gets zero.
Pete| 3.18.10 @ 9:54AM
But Tim, that's the beauty of the Healthcare takeover. Smarter, and let's face it, just flat out better people will be making all the decisions! I can't imagine a better way to die than via a decision made by someone who went to Harvard. What an honor! Can't wait.
Tim| 3.18.10 @ 12:31PM
I guess I am just being a sour puss.
KyMouse| 3.18.10 @ 9:50AM
When abortion became legal, the right to abort became the obligation to abort, in most cases. A study by the Elliot Institute found that at least six out of every 10 abortions are not the mother's choice, but the result of pressure from the father, her parents, etc.
The right to die quickly becomes the obligation to die. "Mom, you aren't going to get any better. Don't you want to stop suffering? Don't you know that we need the money we're spending on your care for the kids' education? You don't want to be selfish, do you?"
MTB| 3.18.10 @ 2:36PM
Absolutely right, KyMouse. When my wife was pregnant with our fifth (yes, fifth for all you zero population whackos out there--I wanted six, but my wife said no) child, one of her blood tests showed an abnormality. They wanted to do an amniocentisis (sp?) to determine if our unborn baby was going to have Down's Syndrome. I asked my wife why. She said they told her so we could "make decisions." I asked her if she would have an abortion if the baby had Down's Syndrome (neither she nor I believe in it except to save the life of the mother or for rape or incest). She said no. So I told her there was no reason for the amniocentisis, then. Our fifth baby, a girl, is a normal, healthy, happy 16 year old who is learning how to drive. But, we wouldn't have loved her any more or less if she had been born with Down's.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 4:11PM
God bless you, MTB.
My OB wanted me to have amniocentesis when I was pregnant with my last child--I'm a big pro-lifer and told him no, that amnio was just a 'search and destroy mission'. He was really ticked off but I didn't care--amnio is one nasty procedure and I wanted nothing to do with it.
Today, that 'baby' is 6'6", 300 lbs and plays offensive line on his college football team. I thank God every day for giving me the strength to follow my own convictions. No regrets here.
KyMouse| 3.18.10 @ 9:55AM
I'm trying to locate an article from a recent medical journal which admitted that hospitals and physicians are often too eager to harvest organs; if I can find it, I'll add it here.
In the meantime, consider the case of Ruben Navarro, of San Francisco, whose physicians was accused in 2007 of giving him an overdose of painkillers and sedatives that would hasten his death in order to take his organs. And ponder the fact that several "brain dead" women (including Susan Torres, 2005) have successfully carried babies -- something true corpses cannot do.
If "brain dead" patients are really dead, why are they still hooked up to machines, instead of in the morgue? And if they aren't really dead, how can we justify killing them by taking their organs?
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 4:16PM
KM, google ALL (American Life League)--it's a wonderful pro-life organization I've belonged to for many years. I've been reading about horrific organ harvesting stories for a long time. Creepy beyond words--no one in my family has an organ donor card. I made sure of it.
I want a family member to decide if I should die, not a stranger.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 10:41AM
KyMouse,
I'll give you an even scarier thought to comtemplate.
What if you're in a bad car accident, and when you get to the hospital you have a Hindu or Buddhist doctor in the emergency room? What if he decides that your life wouldn't be worth living, but that's okay, because he believes in reincarnation?
If you, or I, are ever struggling for our lives in an emergency room, who could prove whether, or not, a doctor did EVERYTHING he could to save our lives?
Be afraid, be VERY afraid!
KyMouse| 3.18.10 @ 11:40AM
Very true, Nick. Having one's life in the hands of a secular humanist is plenty scare-inducing, too.
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.18.10 @ 10:45AM
Mr. Neumayr,
Your title was precisely on point.
Here on the Gulf coast, having seen hurricanes approaching, we might call it "Outliers of The Storm". Those little ruffles of clouds that signal the inevitable onslaught.
Sir, I believe there is a profoundly powerful storm on the way. Thank you for this heads-up.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 5:41PM
The Culture of Death has been coming for a long time, Ken--it's just more powerful now.
Drew | 3.18.10 @ 12:19PM
Way to go! Take a complicated, difficult medical issue - and turn it into a piece of deceptive , inflammatory propaganda.
Consider just one statement in the article:
his policies weren't already killing and exploiting them.
One problem: According to the WaPo article So far, neither hospital has yet gotten any usable organs.
The issue of the ethics and morality of organ transplantation is always going to be a difficult one. But to wrap this sort of topic into an American Spectator style bumper-sticker is doing nobody any favors. One might point out that this particular issue has precisely nothing to do with the current Health Care reform legislation.
The facts, as they stand now, are pretty much indisputable: there are almost 100,000 Americans currently on medical waiting lists for organ transplantats. Many of these people will die before an organ becomes available. Many Americans willingly and knowingly sign the Organ Donor boxes on their Driver's Licenses. But should one of these people die suddenly (due to a car accident, violent crime, etc.) in an Emergency Room - the wishes of these generous people (to donate their organs) will be ignored. Their organs will end up in the morgue.
As the WaPo article indicates - this is a difficult problem for both medical professionals, as well as bioethicists to solve. The DHS program is a study - just that - a study. Designed to explore ways in which the problem can be solved in way in which the wishes of organ donors, the needs of potential recipients, as well as the requirements for a just and humane society can all be met.
But rather than encourage readers to consider all of the many competing ethical, legal, moral, and medical considerations - American Spactator instead packages it up as "Obama Zombies are Gonna Eat Your Brain."
Stay classy.
Ken (Old Texican)| 3.18.10 @ 12:24PM
"Obama Zombies are Gonna Eat Your Brain."
Heh, Drew, they have already eaten yours.
Be warned folks. Zombies are among us.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 1:08PM
Why don't you donate one of your organs today, Drew. Your brain.
We can label it "Abby something....Abby Normal."
S_in Severn| 3.18.10 @ 1:10PM
How dare you! How dare you!
My first husband was an organ donor, it was not a hard or difficult decision, but it was a desired he expressed he WANTED TO DO upon his death, and one that his parents (a cop and a nurse) endorsed.
Don't lecture about it until YOU are in the position. I have volunteered to work with families making that decision, and that is one THAT NEEDS TO REMAIN THE DECISION OF THE FAMILY!
Otherwise - hey, you're a tissue match for some "connected and powerful you person;" you get to die so s/he can live because you are worth more dead than alive.
Sorry that line about "The ER don't know" crap is crap. You want to donate, fill in and CARRY THE DONOR CARD! Discuss with your family your desires.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 4:18PM
Too late, Drew/Liberal reader!! You don't have a brain.
Stay assy.
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 12:22PM
Hartford Wolf Pack Doubled Up By Providence Bruins, 4-2 – Minor … | Providence Bruins links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Tim| 3.18.10 @ 12:37PM
Drew you make a good point, but what we are talking about isn't the issue of organ donation, it's involuntary organ donation.
"One might point out that this particular issue has precisely nothing to do with the current Health Care reform legislation."
May I point out that when healthcare is nationalized, so will our bodies. Think eminent domain abuse with scalpels and bonesaws.
"eminent domain (uncountable)
1.(US) The right of a government over the lands within its jurisdiction. Usually invoked to compel land owners to sell their property in preparation for a major construction project such as a freeway.
The city council used eminent domain to make me sell my store."
Ed Wallis| 3.18.10 @ 1:01PM
"Being pronounced dead" being different from "being dead"...
...you mean, sort of like "deeming a bill to have passed"?!
Sam| 3.18.10 @ 1:12PM
Exactly!!!
S_in_SEvern| 3.18.10 @ 1:02PM
Yes, our country HAS BEEN fundamentally remade within my lifetime.
We all have lost the "right to Life" our most fundamental and elemental right. We are losing our liberty through various taxes, regulatory requirements and unemployment.
My G-d, have mercy on us.
Drew| 3.18.10 @ 1:15PM
But we aren't talking about involuntary organ donation. Organ donation within the US is governed by the National Transplant Act of 1984 - which essentially leaves it to the states to enact Uniform Organ Donation legislation. But it explicitly requires that the donor makes an affirmative declaration that they wish to donate their organs. Nothing in the current Healthcare Reform legislation would change that.
The argument about Eminent Domain is a canard. Eminent Domain refers specifically to property and land. The same Organ Donation act specifically made it illegal to sell one's organs - in essence it said that organs were NOT property that could be exchanged for compensation. And as such the Fifth Amendment, which states that
nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation
would invalidate any attempt to enact legislation or policy that attempted to involuntarily force the donation.
I can assure you that 99% of the people and organizations currently supporting Health Care Reform in this country would be strongly opposed by any attempt by any future Administration force involuntary organ donation. Involuntary organ donation has not occured - ever - in any country that DOES have universal health care. And I have enough faith in the power of the US Constitution to believe that it would never happen here either.
FTM| 3.18.10 @ 4:21PM
Drew,
China has nationalized healthcare and they harvest organs from condemned criminals. As a matter of fact, harvesting the organs of condemned criminals is the method of execution. They have vans that go from prison to prison and do the deed.
And, by the bye, income tax evasion in China is a capitol offense.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 5:39PM
China has forced abortions, too--mostly for girls, and China's male to female population is 2 to 1 among the young now.
Who will these young males marry when they grow up? Future Chinese social unrest is inevitable.
Many baby girls are tossed into ditches and culverts along the road and left to die alone, too. Talk about sexism!
Soulless and Godless, Communism is a pox on humanity. It is evil.
Tyranny is tyranny, regardless of the direction from which it springs.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 4:22PM
You just keep believing that, troll, while your fellow Marxists now in office are shredding our Constitution as we speak! Your assurance rings hollow, to say the least; you liberals use the Constitution for toilet paper.
What a joke.
Charles R. Williams| 3.21.10 @ 8:35AM
The issue here is whether there is an inherent conflict of interest in harvesting organs in an ER setting. Yes there is.
"Involuntary organ donation has not occurred - ever - in any country that [has] universal health care." That's a very strong statement. Certainly China is an exception. If transplant technology had existed, the Nazis and the Bolsheviks would have had no compunctions about this. Involuntary euthanasia is common in Europe today, in spite of being illegal. It occurred in New Orleans during Katrina and the perpetrators were not convicted nor have they been disciplined by the medical profession.
My response to this article is to check my drivers license and to reconsider my designation as an organ donor. As word gets out, more people will do the same.
Northern Rebel| 3.18.10 @ 1:40PM
So Nick.............
Am I to assume you were against Terri Shiavo's ex-husband pulling her feeding tube, so he could get the 300 grand in life insurance, against her parent's wishes?
It is not just organ donor scandals we have to worry about. they are fighting to keep abortion in the bill because as one lib congressman put it."It will be necessary to keep abortion, in order to keep down the number of people in the system."
What's next? Forced abortion, like China?
You bet your ass!
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 2:16PM
Northern Rebel,
You betcha'!
Terri Shiavo's right to life was violated by the State of Florida.
President Bush should have ordered U.S. marshals in to protect her civil rights.
I remember back in the 80's, the Justice Department prosecuted some Klan guy for violating the "civil rights" of a man murdered in the 60's. The Klan clown had been found "not guilty" by a jury in a state trial (can't remember which one), and double jeopardy meant he couldn't be tried agian.
Or, so he thought.
Now, if the feds could try this guy again, why couldn't they protect Terry?
Ray| 3.18.10 @ 1:43PM
It used to be standard practice that the dead be observed for three days to ensure that they were actually dead. This was because people, doctors, are not perfect and they really can't tell when the moment of actual death occurs. So many people were considered dead, and were actually buried alive, that it became normal for BELLS and FLAGS to be installed in crypts and graves so the "dead" could have a small chance of escape the grave.
Even today, there is a LOT of ambiguity about the actual moment of death. When a drowning victim, who's been described as "clinically" dead, can be revived with little or no apparent ill-effects, the point of actual death is even more obscure than in the days of old.
Despite the increase in ambiguity concerning the moment of actual death, our government is playing around with the idea that people who aren't even fully dead (that "near dead" label) should be killed just to take their organs and sell or give them to someone else? How far we have fallen!
Petronius| 3.18.10 @ 1:53PM
Coming soon to every hospital near you: an additional paragraph on surgical consent forms authorizing the taking of any organs to be subsequently auctioned on e-bay with profits going to the DNC. You can't just say no.
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 2:08PM
Carnival time! – Rio de Janeiro, Brazil Travel Blog | Brazil Traveling links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
George F| 3.18.10 @ 2:11PM
It has become increasingly obvious that the left has no sense of decency, ethics or moral standards. And they think they're "progressive."
Seems more like regressive to me.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 2:20PM
George F,
"Regressive." Bingo!
All the way back to the Canaanites.
Progressives are modern-day Molech worshipers.
Drew| 3.18.10 @ 2:43PM
Quote: Progressives are modern-day Molech worshipers.
Somebody, earlier in this thread, complained about the poor quality of the comments here at American Spectator. And after reading what you just wrote - I'd have to concur. What the hell are you talking about?
You make a totally off-topic claim, totally unsupported by any facts or arguments: Progressives are Molech worshippers?
Let's be honest and say I actually had to look up Molech. What is it? In short it is the name of a God or sacrifice associated with fire. So, because you say so - Progressives are fire Worshippers?
Do you actually believe the sort of diarrhea that pours out of your empty head? Or do you think everyone else in the entire world is as stupid as you are?
Moral standards? Decency?
How about this, for "moral standards" and "decency": How about keeping your arguments based on something at least vaguely related to the truth and/or facts. Rather than just spouting whatever nonsense bubbles into your gob.
If American Spectator and its readers wish to be taken seriously - by anyone - then you need to hold your commenters to account. Otherwise, you're encouraging people to scream "Fire Worshipper!" in a crowded forum.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 3:09PM
I think I struck a nerve, folks!
I thought I wasn't "[...] worth wasting time on.", Drew.
You can't even do simple research.
Molech worshipers sacrificed their children, by burning them to death, Einstein.
Just like liberals/progressives/communists sacrifice children, through abortion, to their god, secular humanism.
You guys are the Culture of Death.
ralph| 3.18.10 @ 3:22PM
I haven't been reading the comments for awhile because I agree. Moving to a similar topic is one thing, but making outlandish statements is another.
Your reply to "Nick" was actually pretty funny.
shipley130| 3.19.10 @ 2:56AM
Maybe meant pagan, closely associated with devil worshipping, in some opinions.
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 2:16PM
Brussels and a journey to Frankfurt – Brussels, Belgium Travel Blog | Belgium Traveli links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Aaron Schroeder| 3.18.10 @ 2:56PM
So, just so this progressive-cum-Molech Worshiper understands the worries of those posting here, let me get this straight. You people trust doctors to diagnose your illnesses, prescribe medicines to you, perform surgeries on you, put you under anaesthesia, and all the rest, but you don't trust them to know when you're injured beyond saving? It seems to me that the hallmark of anyone who's good at anything is understanding that some of their efforts are futile, and if doctors and a team of nurses think that saving your life is futile, then the degree that we trust doctors decision-making abilities just is the degree we trust them to make this decision. So, if you don't trust doctors, stop going to hospitals.
Of course, none of that means that your organs will be harvested. Such a practice occurs only when you've indicated as much as on your driver's license. So, if you're that worried about illegitimate harvesting, just don't check the box when you get your license. The idea is that, if you've checked the box, you understand the risks and you're committed to the quick efforts of doctors and nurses to harvest your organs to save the lives of others, if some tragedy should befall you. If you aren't intelligent enough to understand the consequences of some action (like checking the donor box) I have no clue what makes you think you're qualified to check the box in the first place.
FTM| 3.18.10 @ 4:54PM
Aaron, buddy,
I think that the concern here is potentiality. This program has the potential to become more than it is now or as it is being proposed.
Hospitals lose a lot of money every year in the treatment of the indigent. Here is a mechanism whereby that deficit may potentially be closed. How will the cost/benifit analysis effect your treatment? Who are you and what is your percieved value to society? Who gets to make the call? Do the people making the decisions recuse themselves when it's one of their own family members? How is the decision making process going to function?
That's what it comes down to in the final analysis, a cost/benifit analysis. Wouldn't it stand to reason that a banker is worth more to society than a high school dropout? How will social status effect decision making? Maybe that half-wit inner-city kid is a little less salvagable now that Senator Highpockets needs a liver. Do you understand what I'm getting at here?
A voluntary decision made by the patient beforehand today could become a requirement tommorrow. You score thus and such on somebody's checklist and next thing you know you're on the list to be disected. If you think that the American government would never be involved in such a thing then take a look at the MKULTRA project that the government ran back in the 60's. Do you really think that they wouldn't pull a stunt like that again if they thought they could get away with it?
I can imagine a couple other perhaps undesired outcomes, perhaps you have a lady with a certian set of desirable physiological chartacteristics. Impregnate the lady, carry the baby to near term, abort the baby and harvest the organs. Looks like a potentially profitable industry to me. All you need is women that want to cooperate... or maybe not. She's in a persistent vegetative state you know.
All monstrosities start out as what would appear to be a reasonable, considered question or idea. The idea of "Eugenics" originated here in America. At one time Eugenics was considered a cutting edge social ideology. All the Nazis in Germany did was to carry the idea to it's logical conclusion.
You may do as you please. That's my genuine attitude. If you bring no one else to harm what you do is your business. Why do you feel compelled to make decisions for others?
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 5:00PM
Aaron, you're naive if you entrust your life to strangers; do so at your own peril--intelligence has nothing to do with it.
Merinas van der Lubbe| 3.21.10 @ 3:37AM
>You people trust doctors to diagnose your illnesses,
>prescribe medicines to you, perform surgeries on you,
>put you under anaesthesia, and all the rest, but you don't
>trust them to know when you're injured beyond saving?
*Exactly*. *Precisely*.
(Don't fry your other brain cell...)
ken (Old Texican)| 3.18.10 @ 3:01PM
Drew, you are very comical.
Personally I enjoyed the "Moloch" metaphor.
It is pretty obvious that you are a Obamahiney worshiper, and a sleazy communism worshiper.
We actually enjoy you dropping by. You are a nice comic relief from reality.
Thank you
Drew| 3.18.10 @ 3:43PM
This might come as something of a surprise to you, but "communism" - at least as a coherent political philosophy - pretty much ceased to exist with the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991.
While I'm sure that there are a few die-hard adherents, nobody - and I mean nobody - seriously believes that Marxist-Leninist style communism holds too many answers for a modern functional economic/political state.
Crying "Commie!" might, during the 1950s or 60s have won a few points in American political discourse. The fact that you continue to do so today is perhaps more damning of YOUR argument - suggesting how sadly out-of-date your entire line of thinking and beliefs are.
But that doesn't rally surprise me. You arguments about "communism" (such as they are) are as bankrupt and devoid of even the pretence of truth as are the rest of the talking points and out-and-out nonsense vomited forth on the American people by Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and American Spectator: silly lies, designed to get credulous fools to vote against their own best interests.
Reality? Communism is dead, unloved and unlamented - except (perhaps) by silly old fools who cynically use it to buttress their own flights of fantasy.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 4:05PM
"Communism is dead, unloved and unlamented - except (perhaps) by silly old fools who cynically use it to buttress their own flights of fantasy."
You forgot Van Jones, Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayres, Anita Dunn, Ann Dunham, Barack Hussien Obama Sr., and President Dither, of course.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 4:28PM
Nick, you know facts confuse the troll--it's cruel of you to use them on him.
Isn't 'Drew' the clown who called us "Reich Wingers" the other day?
I thought Nazi Fascism was dead. Seems that the "silly old fool was cynically using it to buttress his own flight of fancy." Moron Liberal Reader.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 5:09PM
SoCon,
Thanks!
By the way, Drew's not a clown, he's a Molech worshiper!
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 3:55PM
The Future’s Shadow (American Spectator) | SoutheasternPolitico.com links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 5:01PM
Latitude Software » Blog Archive » Digg: The Future of Social New… links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Michael Tomlinson| 3.18.10 @ 5:24PM
To paraphrase Dirk "Turban" Durbin, Barack Obama is like Hitler and Pol Pot."
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 5:37PM
Breasts Tumor Remedy: Coping Which has a Mastectomy | PrimaryPeritoneal.com links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
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For Debt Consolidation Do You Require A Debt Consolidation Counselor/Counseling? links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 6:35PM
Hey, Drew, maybe if you had read the Bible growing up, instead Mao's "Little Red Book", maybe you would know who Molech was, pagan.
Northern Rebel| 3.18.10 @ 7:19PM
Well deserved props to you Nick.
Nick| 3.18.10 @ 8:01PM
Thanks, Northern Rebel!
Great comment below.
See...Drew....people here LIKE me.
While you, on the other hand, are despised.
SoCon| 3.18.10 @ 10:25PM
I'll second that, Drew/Liberal Screeder!
Northern Rebel| 3.18.10 @ 7:32PM
Drew:
Progressives are communists are liberals, evil.
Are people who attempt to committ evil upon their fellow man evil by definition, or just misguided?
Communism/fascism/liberalism/progressivism is cut from the same cloth ;
EVIL!
It is a sin against mankind to attempt to take away the inherent rights bestowed by GOD, and make them a "Gummint" policy.
To remove a man's freedom to choose his life liberty, and persuit of happiness, is a sin against God, as a matter of fact, THE GREATEST SIN AGAINST GOD!
If you don't believe this, than nothing I can do or say can save you, and frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!
Have a nice day, while you have the chance..
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Who thinks the Cincinnati Reds can make the playoffs by 2008 now that they're under n links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
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The American Spectator : The Future's Shadow links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 9:04PM
The American Spectator : The Future's Shadow links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Conservative1| 3.18.10 @ 10:25PM
"The article is somewhat obtuse about the longstanding moral problem at the center of organ transplantation, which is that the donors aren't actually dead. It seems to accept uncritically the bogus definitions of death as "brain death" and "cardiac death" that the medical community uses to take organs from the dying but not dead. (Organs from cadavers are useless, so the medical community had to come up with the convenient lies of death as "brain death" and "cardiac death" to pluck usable organs from the living.)"
So this author is against organ donation in general? Seriously, this site is getting more bizarre by the day. And the regular posters here telling people with divergent opinions to kill themselves? Wow, nice web site you're all maintaining here.
Nick| 3.19.10 @ 12:10AM
The quotation you cite happens to be 100% true. It has been well known in Pro-Life circles for years now. I took my organ donor sticker off my license 10 years ago.
"Law and Order" even did a show about it.
So, consider yourself educated on the subject.
Missy| 3.19.10 @ 1:53AM
No, the author's not against organ donation, just that you better know something about the process of harvesting organs before you decide to give yours away. It's a matter of life and death, you know.
Got a problem with information and knowledge?
A true 'conservative' wouldn't, troll--stop putting silly words in our mouths.
Pingback| 3.18.10 @ 11:23PM
How do people who can't afford healthcare and doctor visits get treatment when ill? links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 3.19.10 @ 12:50AM
The Future’s Shadow | Pitts Report links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
dougfoot | 3.19.10 @ 12:53AM
I find this whole notion of organ donation in the emergency room a bit alarming... especially sponsored by our government.
Good thing I don't live in the inner city - the ER in these areas would become the defacto orgon drop off and pick up locations.
Doctors have it rough already, with the specter of Obamacare on the horizon, it will become cheaper to bide ones time and "declare" a person dead and begin harvesting versus treating to save a life.
The government is not your friend - why do you think our founders set up a system that should be LIMITED.
A government big enough to provide is big enough to deny!
Miss Behavin| 3.19.10 @ 12:56AM
PJ:
Way back there in discussion organ theft, you said "which begs the question. . ."
Allow me to point out to you , before Drew does, that to "beg the question" means to avoid it - it does not mean it brings up the question..
You will find the definition in the dictionary...
Unless, of course, you meant to avoid the question of pickling your organs -and who would want to do that in these perilous times?.
Drink up!
Pingback| 3.19.10 @ 2:37AM
Hollow – Card Trick links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
shipley130| 3.19.10 @ 2:52AM
HHS must have been watching episodes of House. They harvest a heart from an obese woman that dies in the emergency room to transplant in a guy that is not a good candidate for a heart transplant. Look out, it won't matter if you are obese, have hepatitis, kidney failure--they want your internal organs. Pittsburgh-Night of the Living Dead Part V, starring Swartzenagger, Michael Jackson, Whoopi Rape-Rape Goldberg and directed by Roman Polanski.
Pingback| 3.19.10 @ 8:55AM
Government grants for individuals – Can you apply it | DebtConsolidationFree.org links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
KyMouse| 3.19.10 @ 11:40AM
The American Life League asks some good questions for all of us to ponder:
If "brain dead" people truly are dead:
-- Why can insurance companies cover intensive care costs for them?
-- Why do they often receive intravenous fluids, antibiotics, ventilator care and other life-support measures?
--Why do they often need anesthesia and other drugs to stop natural physical responses when they're undergoing vital (fatal) organ harvesting?
--Why does a ventilator work on a "brain dead" person but not on a dead person?
SoCon| 3.19.10 @ 3:45PM
Judie Brown, President of All, is a courageous and stalwart defender of innocent life--there ARE saints among us, folks.
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How You can Triple Your Opportunities Using the Greatest Penny Stock Suggestions Soft links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
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We Must Stop ObamaCare | NonStopSite links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Skip Dunn | 3.19.10 @ 10:29PM
And you thought the death panels were bad... ObamaCare may bring Organ Harvesters to the ER. Once ObamaCare bureaucrats decide your life has no value to the state, they will refer you to the organ harvesters.
Friends| 3.20.10 @ 2:47AM
Don't be so pessimistic, the future is bright.
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Nobama| 3.20.10 @ 4:04AM
Someone's smoking something!
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What should I day Trade? | Insider Forex Secrets Guide links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Pingback| 3.20.10 @ 11:15AM
Twog Scared And Angry: Obamacare And Invasion Of The Organ Snatchers At The American links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
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looking for desktop charts? | Insider Forex Secrets Guide links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Big Elk| 3.20.10 @ 4:46PM
What Obama wants is for his rich friends to have stem cells and other people's living organs sp that they can live longer. It make one wonder how many organs George Soros has stolen from other living people, or the stem cells David Rockefellar gets injected with to make him live longer, or how many stem cells and other people's organs Robert KKK Byrd has in his evil, decrepit body. For unethical doctors, there is no greater joy than carving organs, eyeballs, and stem cells out of alive people. In a just world, those doctors who do that would be burned at the stake,
Janie| 3.21.10 @ 8:45PM
Martha, please stop whining. Shut your mouth and stop complaining about the big bully boys already.
Talk about a piece of work. It's obvious you're a liberal. lol
Pingback| 3.21.10 @ 12:49AM
Another Nampion/Twog Partnership at NRB - nampion.com links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
Troy| 3.21.10 @ 1:53AM
Wow.. this article is a true piece of work. The author obviously known very little about the organ donation process, or does know and chooses to turn a blind eye to that knowlege in favor of stirring up people to his opinion.. very trashy for someone who is writing for the church. very sad. Shame on you.
How do I know this? Because I'm a Nurse in an intensive care unit who has seen and helped families with these very issues.
The idea that nurses and doctors are preying on dying people for their organs is despicable and very untrue.
The last person I had that qualified as a candidate for organ donation was an illeagle alien from another country. His brain was "cooked" almost literally by high body temps before he was found and brought to the hospital. His body however recovered and was working fine. He was on a ventilator and iv support for days while we tracked down family members.. in another country.. that didnt speak english.. so that we could present them with their options.
1. Keep him alive on a ventilator and help them find a nursing home, or teach them to take care of him at home.
2. Terminate the life support and allow him to die naturally.
3. Donate organs.
At no point was this family preyed upon.. at no point were doctors and nurses anything other than keeping him alive so the family could make their decisions.
The author of this article obviously believes that people on ventilators, with feeding tubes, with no chance of recovery or any quality of life are "alive" and if thats his belief, or your wish, then the medical community does what it can for you.
But to suggest that medical personnel are "killing patients, or allowing patients to die for their organs" is completely insane.
What it comes down to is that whatever your beliefs are.. medical personnel will respect your wishes. Just make sure your family knows what they are.
Martha Gooden| 3.21.10 @ 6:00AM
Thank you, Troy, for contributing a reasoned, sane thought on this issue.
The writers who appear most often on this blog impress me as playground bullyboys. About all they are capable of when they disagree with another's comment is result to insult and name calling.
Intelligent discourse is not their forte.
I lament the fact that conservative readers of American Spectator are becoming angrier and less capable of offering any substantive thoughts on complex issues. It seems to me that all they are capable of doing is mocking and ridiculing.
Bullyboys, for sure.
Troy| 3.21.10 @ 7:54AM
Well, in a hot button issue I can see where tempers flare. But many of the fears mentioned in this article are groundless and are rebutted in the very article he is quoting from. I love reading other viewpoints than mine. On many issues I'm conservative. But on others liberal. I try to base my beliefs on the facts. Which are getting ever more difficult to come by.
I just dislike when professionals start screaming about my ethics but don't seem to have any of their own
Nobama| 3.21.10 @ 8:42PM
Troy and Martha, tell you what; you march right up to the front of the line to donate your organs. Make sure your Living Will is in triplicate and a do not resuscitate order is in order for both of you.
We're fine with that--just stay the hell out of our end of life wishes, monsters.
Janie| 3.21.10 @ 8:49PM
Martha you promised you wouldn't comment on this thread again after 3/18. Liar.
Troy| 3.22.10 @ 12:15AM
Wow. Such venemous hatred. Monsters. When I basically said your wishes. Whatever they may be will be honored. I have never argued that I want your organs. Just tried to show that the fearmongering and hatred were unfounded
and also. The dnr status living will and other items you mention are exactly how YOU let us monsters know what you want done for you. I have helped patients fill out living wills that state they want everything done to extend their life. Did you even read my post? And as a nurse. With the anger you seem to have going. Get your blood pressure checked before you stroke out or have a heart attack and I'm forced to do CPR for hours trying
to save your life and hoping there is family around who knows your wishes since you can't be bothered to fill out any of those horrid living will statements
Troy| 3.22.10 @ 12:24AM
Oh. And one more thing. In my original post I said my last patient who qualified as an organ Donor. In point of fact, he did not donate organs. His family was religious and stated his wishes were to be brought home to his family. Wierd kind of monster that helped this poor family get him home.
Nobama| 3.22.10 @ 12:49AM
Go away Concern Troll; we're not interested in your lies or your phony empathy.
You seem consumed by hatred, liberal troll, and it says more about you than I. Now run along and make up some new lies to spew on other websites, monster.
The conversation here is over, your impact has been nil. lol
Troy| 3.22.10 @ 3:29AM
No. Not nil. If anyone with a genuine fear that someone might steal their organs in the hospital reads this then at least part of the truth is out there. Which is more than the author of this article or you have bothered to provide. But you are right. I do need to go to some other website and leave this snakepit behind. Enjoy your "victory" :)
Nobama| 3.22.10 @ 6:06PM
Go back to your job ripping organs out of people barely holding onto life.
You know you like it. Monster.
I won again!
Michele San Pietro| 3.21.10 @ 11:02AM
Obama's program is simply monstrous and must be stopped before it is too late.
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Jacobite| 3.22.10 @ 1:18AM
If there's any justice, the family of the 20-year-old 'inner-city' youth in the ER would whip out their weapons and harvest an organ or two from each staff member. Fair is fair. I'm tired of listening to wailing about the latest outrage -- if you're not gonna do anything about it, please shut up.
Lucinda| 3.22.10 @ 6:08PM
Agreed. Sounds like you're ready for a little 'street justice' yourself.
You made me laugh--thanks.
Pingback| 3.26.10 @ 9:13PM
Another Nampion/Twog Partnership At NRB - nampion.com links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
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Departure from Denmark – Copenhagen, Denmark Travel Blog | Denmark Traveling links to this page. Here’s an excerpt:
apotek online | 7.3.10 @ 7:05AM
Health systems are a joke everywhere. Neither in developing or developed country. Look at Australia, State government can't even manage hospital budget, Federal need to take over this job.
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